# Converting monsters from Second Edition Monstrous Compendiums



## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

*Troll Mutate*
Climate/Terrain: Far Realm Gate
Freq: Rare
Org: Group
Activity Cycle: Night
Diet: Carnivore
Int: Low (5-7)
Treasure: Nil (D)
Align: Chaotic evil
# App: 4-16
AC: 4
Movement: 12
HD: 3+3
# Att: 4 (three claw, bite)
Dmg/Att: 1d4+1/1d4+1/1d4+1/1d8+1
SA: Severed limbs attack
SD: Regeneration
MR: Nil
Size: L (8' tall)
Morale: Elite (14)
XP Value: 1,000

Troll mutates are the result of generations of exposure to corrupting alien energies, such as those found near a gate to the Far Realm.  The energy is not only corrupting, but debilitating; these trolls have half the Hit Dice of the common troll.  The energies to which they are exposed have caused them to mutate, giving many of them odd deformities, externalized organs, and extra limbs.  After generations, some of these changes have bred true; nearly all troll mutates have additional eyes and a third arm.  Otherwise, the mutates resemble the basic troll stock; thin, loathsome, and a mottled gray-green in color.

Combat:  Troll mutates attack with three claws and a bite.  The debilitating effect of the forces causing the mutation also weakens these attacks.  Should any of these trolls use a weapon, it would attack with only a +4 damage bonus.

Three rounds after a troll mutate takes damage, it begins to regenerate at three hit points per round.  If it regenerates more than 20 points of damage, it has a 20% chance to grow a vestigial appendage or organ as well.  As with common trolls, fire and acid damage is not regenerated.

Any blow against a mutate with an edged weapon will, on a roll of 20, sever a limb.  Severed limbs fight on, scuttling back to rejoin the troll after the battle.

When reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, the mutate is incapacitated but not slain.  It continues to regenerate and may start taking actions as soon as it has a positive number of hit points.  If immersed in acid or burned while incapacitated the troll mutate is permanently slain.

Habitat/Society:  The troll mutates live in a savage tribe ruled by a powerful matriarch, who has psionic powers.  They spend much of their time merely surviving, for they share their environment with roving bands of brood gibberlings, gibbering mouthers, and myconid work bands.  (The myconids are not particularly dangerous to the trolls, but are eaten with gusto.)  Troll mutates are even more cunning than other trolls.

The corrupting influence of the Far Realm is particularly effective because of the trolls' regeneration abilty.  Major regeneration is often accompanied by mutation; each time a troll regnerates more than 20 hit points, it has a 20% chance that a vestigial appendage or organ grows on the regenerating spot.  Such a growth has a 50% chcne to grow into full function within 24 hours. Otherwise, the appendage or organ just hangs there as a grotesque parody of the real thing (especially if the organ generated was an internal one).  After generations of this effect, new trolls are born with a third arm and additonal eyes; these mutations have become the norm.

Troll Regeneration Table
1d12 - Appendage
1 - Arm (claw 1d4+1)
2 - Arm (claw 1d4+1)
3 - Leg
4 - Tail (whip 1d6+3)
5 - Eye
6 - Eye
7 - Tentacle (constrict 1d4+1)
8 - Internal organ
9 - Head (bite 1d8+1)
10 - Wings (Fly 12, E) or pincer (claw 1d3+1)

Ecology:  Long ago, trolls found their way into Firestorm Peak, the location of a gate to the Far Realm, during one of the infrequent openings of teh Outer Gates of the mountain.  They live by scavenging, preying upon the gibberlings, myconids, and the odd adventurer.

Matriarch Mutate

This creature rules the troll mutates with an iron claw.  She is a 6+6 Hit Die creature with two heads, giving her an extra bite attack.  The second head also gives her a psionic wild talent, 30 PSPs, and a variation of the project force devotion.  If she does not use any bite attacks, she can user her psionic attack, in addition to her other attacks.  The psionic attack, usable up to three times per day, is triggered with a roll of 16 or less on 1d20 and inflicts 2d6 points plus the target's AC in damage (negative ACs reduce the damage).

The queen has only two arms, but has a fully functional tentacle-like tail that she can whip over her heads to deliver a stunning blow for 1d6+3 points of damage.

She kills all female trolls in the group to ensure her own supremacy, and confiscates all treasure collected by the trolls for her own hoard.

Originally appeared in Gates of Firestorm Peak.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

First things first: still a giant or an aberration?  I think I might lean toward the latter, but they're not so weird that giant wouldn't work, also.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

I say make 'em aberrations. 

There's really very little difference between a troll mutate and a regular troll. They've still got a claw/claw/bite. They still regenerate, and this regeneration still doesn't protect from fire and acid. They're just weaker and more pathetic. Their deforming regeneration doesn't really have any mechanical function for the ordinary trolls - they'll be dead in 24 hours of the encounter, most likely. I say we add info for three armed, tail-whip and two-headed trolls as variants of the base troll mutate, probably adding a CR +0-+1 bump.

What we could do to differentiate these guys from ordinary trolls? I think some manner of fortification makes sense - they don't have organs that work in nearly the same way as an ordinary creature's, so it's harder to critically hit or sneak attack them.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Light fortification makes sense, I think.  We could also leave off rend, as it's not clear that these are as strong as normal trolls.  They have fewer hit dice and also smaller claw damage. (Though the example seems to have 3 arms!)

Abilities: based on hp and natural weapon damage, we could argue for Str and Con of 12-13.  This seems a little low for their size, so we could compromise with the normal troll and give them 17 or 18 for each, depending on the bonus we want them to have.  I'd put Int at 5, just so they're not as smart as normal trolls.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2008)

Good suggestions.  We could also beef up that mutations list.

The organ mutations could increase the fortification, for example, while the extra eyes could provide all-around vision.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good suggestions.  We could also beef up that mutations list.
> 
> The organ mutations could increase the fortification, for example, while the extra eyes could provide all-around vision.



Yeah. If we're going to keep the mutations table, it should have solid mechanical benefit besides extra attacks.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

+5 ft bonus to land speed for an extra leg?  So we could have

Troll Regeneration Table
1d12 - Appendage
1 - Arm (claw 1d4+Str)
2 - Arm (claw 1d4+Str)
3 - Leg (5ft bonus to base speed)
4 - Tail (whip 1d6+1-1/2 Str)
5 - Eye (all-around vision)
6 - Eye (all-around vision)
7 - Tentacle (constrict 1d4+Str)
8 - Internal organ (medium fortification)
9 - Head (bite 1d8+Str)
10 - Wings (Fly 20ft, Clumsy?)
11 - pincer (claw 1d3+1/2 Str?)
12 - ?

I tried to expand the table to 1d12, like it said.  Maybe another internal organ entry?  Should we specify that all mutates have at least one mutation from the table?  Maybe if one has multiple mutations, it'd be worth a CR bump after some point.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Some ideas:

Extra Nose:  Gains keen scent (similar to a shark)

Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

Extra Ear:  Bonus on Listen (and maybe Balance?) checks; -1 penalty on saves vs. sonic attacks.


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

Nice!  The nose can go in the last line and the ear can replace one of the eye entries.  Do we want to replace the 2nd arm entry?  Maybe the head entry could be a minor psi-like/spell-like ability (as for the matriarch) and the bite entry could go with an extra mouth?


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

An extra head could also grant the ettin's:

Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons.


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2008)

That's nicer and somehow more classic fantasy.  Great!


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

The mutations table shaping up so far looks great! I say we specify that every troll mutate has one of the mutations, and agree that multiple mutations might warrant a CR boost.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

Ok, we have so far

Mutation (Ex):  Each troll mutate has at least one mutation, rolled randomly on the following table.  A troll mutate with more than 2 mutations has CR X.

Troll Regeneration Table
1d12 - Appendage
1 - Arm (claw 1d4+Str)
2 - Ear (+2 bonus on Listen and Balance checks & -1 penalty on saves vs. sonic attack)
3 - Leg (5ft bonus to base speed)
4 - Tail (whip 1d6+1-1/2 Str)
5 - Eye (all-around vision, see below)
6 - Nose (keen scent, see below)
7 - Tentacle (constrict 1d4+Str)
8 - Internal organ (medium fortification)
9 - Mouth (bite 1d8+Str)
10 - Wings (Fly 20ft, Clumsy?)
11 - Pincer (claw 1d3+1/2 Str?)
12 - Head (superior two weapon fighting, see below)

All-Around Vision (Ex): A troll mutate with an extra eye may look in any direction, providing a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks. A xorn can’t be flanked

Keen Scent (Ex): A troll mutate with an extra nose can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood at ranges of up to a mile.

Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): A troll mutate with an extra head does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Looking good.  Let's rename the table to Troll Mutation Table.  Also, do we want to add that there is a % chance of a mutation every time a troll regenerates a limb?  This would be in the spirit of "each time a troll regnerates more than 20 hit points, it has a 20% chance that a vestigial appendage or organ grows on the regenerating spot."


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

Feats: Alertness & Iron Will, after the troll?
Skills: Spot and/or Listen?
CR 3?

Edit: did we want to put in light fortification, even before the mutation table?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2008)

I say Multiattack is more important than Iron Will, but agree that Spot and Listen should be its class skills. 

CR 3 looks about right to me. It's no tougher than a bugbear, but it hits harder and can regenerate.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

> Any blow against a mutate with an edged weapon will, on a roll of 20, sever a limb. Severed limbs fight on, scuttling back to rejoin the troll after the battle.




What shall we do with that?



> Matriarch Mutate
> 
> This creature rules the troll mutates with an iron claw. She is a 6+6 Hit Die creature with two heads, giving her an extra bite attack. The second head also gives her a psionic wild talent, 30 PSPs, and a variation of the project force devotion. If she does not use any bite attacks, she can user her psionic attack, in addition to her other attacks. The psionic attack, usable up to three times per day, is triggered with a roll of 16 or less on 1d20 and inflicts 2d6 points plus the target's AC in damage (negative ACs reduce the damage).
> 
> The queen has only two arms, but has a fully functional tentacle-like tail that she can whip over her heads to deliver a stunning blow for 1d6+3 points of damage.




Shall we stat her up as a sidebar or a separate creature?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree about Multiattack.  

We need something about the "severed limb attack," unless we just want to ditch that.  Here's a start:

Severed Limb Attack (Ex): If one of a troll mutate's arms is cut off, the arm attacks the troll mutate's enemies with its usual attack bonus and damage, although it takes penalties for attacking while prone.  The severed arm acts on the troll mutate's initiative and remains animate for 2d4 rounds if it is not reattached to the troll mutate.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

Since there are no standard "severing a limb" rules/options, we'll need to explain how that might happen.

We could borrow from the kraken, etc. for methods of severing a limb, or follow the original more closely and give a chance that on a critical hit, a limb may be severed.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

Hmm, wonder why they talk about this with trolls and other creatures with regeneration, then?  Anyway, I'd just suggest using the sunder rules.  Maybe 10 hp each arm?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmm, wonder why they talk about this with trolls and other creatures with regeneration, then?  Anyway, I'd just suggest using the sunder rules.  Maybe 10 hp each arm?




I've often wondered that myself.  I miss the sword of sharpness and its wacky severing.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

Heh, could always just modify the vorpal sword...

Anyway, what do you think?  Successful sunder attempt vs AC of troll mutate dealing 10hp?  Or more?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2008)

I like the idea of the critical hit taking off a limb. Something like:

Impeded Fortification (Ex): A troll mutate's odd combination of alien anatomy and fragility protects it from critical hits, but at a cost. A troll mutate has a 25% chance to ignore the extra damage dealt by any critical hit or sneak attack, but any successful critical hit or sneak attack causes one of its arms to be torn from its body. The arm, however, continues to attack.

And I say that the mutate matriarch is different enough that she warrants her own statblock.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

I like that!  And I agree about the matriarch.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Great!  Updated.

Environment: x  (Cold mountains for regular trolls doesn't really work well here, considering they share their habitats with myconids and gibbering mouthers)

Treasure: x (Regular trolls have standard)

Advancement: x  (Regular trolls or by character class, but I could see at least some HD progression for these things)


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

How about underground and mountains?

Standard treasure.

I'd say 4-6 HD (Large) or by character class for advancement.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Updated.

How about changing this...

"A troll mutate with more than 2 mutations has CR X."

...to this...

"For every two additional mutations, increase the CR of the troll mutate by 1."



> Matriarch Mutate
> 
> This creature rules the troll mutates with an iron claw. She is a 6+6 Hit Die creature with two heads, giving her an extra bite attack. The second head also gives her a psionic wild talent, 30 PSPs, and a variation of the project force devotion. If she does not use any bite attacks, she can user her psionic attack, in addition to her other attacks. The psionic attack, usable up to three times per day, is triggered with a roll of 16 or less on 1d20 and inflicts 2d6 points plus the target's AC in damage (negative ACs reduce the damage).
> 
> The queen has only two arms, but has a fully functional tentacle-like tail that she can whip over her heads to deliver a stunning blow for 1d6+3 points of damage.




Here's how she looks without any ability score changes.  I'd recommend increasing all the mental ability scores, though.

Troll Mutate Monarch
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and 2 bites +5 melee (1d8+2) and tail +5 melee (1d6+6 plus stun)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Mutations, psionics, rend 2d4+6, severed limb attack, stun
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., impeded fortification, low-light vision, mutations, regeneration 5, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: 9
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack, 1 more
Environment: Any mountains and underground
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or tribe (4-24 plus one matriarch)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: +5


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## Leopold (Mar 6, 2008)

Advancement: 4

It's got: Natural armor, mutliple attacks, reach, very good stats bonus, mutatations, nice lil abilities.

ECL: 7 

8th level fighter vs this would be hard pressed to choose a favorite.  I'd even go so far to make it a 3.

Environment: Subteranean
Treasure: standard


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.
> 
> How about changing this...
> 
> ...



Yes, that's what I was trying to say. 



> Here's how she looks without any ability score changes.  I'd recommend increasing all the mental ability scores, though.
> 
> Troll Mutate Monarch
> Large Aberration
> ...




Probably should make her a wilder or something and bump Cha quite a bit.  I'm fine with leaving Int low, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't make her a wilder, necessarily. I think she should have psi-like abilities, rather than full on levels in a psionic class. And I agree that her Charisma needs to be through the roof for that. It sounds like from the write-up that mind thrust, or something like it, is her primary psychic attack, but we should give her some other low-level offensive powers (ego whip? prevenom? deja vu?) and some level of self-buffs (catfall? inertial armor? defensive precognition?)

Her last feat should be a psionic one, like Psionic Fist.

Demiurge out.


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## Leopold (Mar 7, 2008)

Ugh more psionics. You have a field day with that.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Don't make her a wilder, necessarily. I think she should have psi-like abilities, rather than full on levels in a psionic class. And I agree that her Charisma needs to be through the roof for that. It sounds like from the write-up that mind thrust, or something like it, is her primary psychic attack, but we should give her some other low-level offensive powers (ego whip? prevenom? deja vu?) and some level of self-buffs (catfall? inertial armor? defensive precognition?)
> 
> Her last feat should be a psionic one, like Psionic Fist.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 So no power points, then, just Ps abilities?  How about 3x/day mind thrust, defensive precognition and 1x/day prevenom, inertial armor?

I agree about Psionic Fist.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's what we've got so far.  Should I make this a separate entry in the CC, or apend it to the mutate?

Troll Mutate Monarch
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and 2 bites +5 melee (1d8+2) and tail +5 melee (1d6+6 plus stun)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Mutations, psi-like abilities, rend 2d4+6, severed limb attack, stun
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., impeded fortification, low-light vision, mutations, regeneration 5, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 16
Skills: 9
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack, Psionic Fist
Environment: Any mountains and underground
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or tribe (4-24 plus one matriarch)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: - 

Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day—defensive precognition (+2 insight bonus*), mind thrust (6d10, DC 16*); 1/day—inertial armor (+6 armor bonus*), prevenom (DC 16). Manifester level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Includes augmentation for the matriarch's manifester level.

Stun (Ex):  A creature struck by the matriarch's tail attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Is she going to be unique, or do we think of matriarchs as a variety of troll mutates, maybe one per tribe?  If the latter, I could see going for the separate entry.

Should she get the superior multiweapon fighting for two heads?


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## Leopold (Mar 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Is she going to be unique, or do we think of matriarchs as a variety of troll mutates, maybe one per tribe?  If the latter, I could see going for the separate entry.
> 
> Should she get the superior multiweapon fighting for two heads?




I'm going to shoot for one per tribe so you'd need her as an addition to it so she would need her own subentry of the main one.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree.  I could easily see multiple tribes.

Added her own entry.

I realized that we need to specify what happens if the same mutation is rolled twice.  Some could probably gained multiple times for additional effects, but other benefits would not stack.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I realized that we need to specify what happens if the same mutation is rolled twice.  Some could probably gained multiple times for additional effects, but other benefits would not stack.




Could we leave it to DM's judgement?  Or just put in a line: "If a troll mutate has two identical mutations, the benefits may not stack (for example, gaining medium fortification twice provides no extra benefit).  The DM may then choose to reroll for a different mutation."


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 8, 2008)

Actually, I think medium fort should be stackable, going to heavy fort. But yeah, all around vision and extra ears shouldn't have more benefit for being rolled twice - although they may have cosmetic effects.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2008)

Hmm, I'd have said that the ears are one thing that would stack.  Why don't we say "The effects of multiple identical mutations, including whether they stack, is left to the discretion of the DM.  In some cases, the DM may choose to reroll to find distinct mutations."


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2008)

I agree with freyar. Open the path for DM discretion on allowing mutations to stack.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Sounds good.  I updated the mutate.

Back to the matriarch...

Skills: 9  (Concentration is needed to gain psionic focus for Psionic Fist feat)

Challenge Rating: 6 (She's a bit deadlier than a standard CR 5 troll)

Treasure: Double standard?  (She confiscates most of the mutates' loot)

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Let's put all the ranks into Concentration, I guess.  CR 6 and double standard treasure are good.

Hmm, advancement maybe 7-9 HD (Large), 10-12 HD (Huge) or by character class?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I agree with freyar on advancement. They should get huge, quickly. And I say give her a few ranks in Spot, but more in Concentration.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Updated.

Another one done?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Looks done from here.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Signs point to "yes".

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

*Gargoyle, Archer*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins and occupied dwellings
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 4+5
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (4')
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 975

The archer gargoyle is a malicious creation that looks like a cheerful cherub or, more rarely, a ferocious amazon. Its only visible weapon or means of attack is a stubby bow and quiver of arrows, apparently carved as part of the statue. The archer typically stands in a fountain or on a ledge high up the wall, or serves as a garden ornament, moving to attack only when an intruder enters its territory.

Combat: True to its name, the archer gargoyle uses its bow and arrows as its primary weapon. The bow is not a true bow, and the arrows are just stone; they form the basis for an arrowlike magical attack which hits with a THAC0 of 17 and inflicts 1d10 points of damage; the "arrow" has a range of 100 yards. Even when engaged in melee, the archer uses its bow at pointblank range. Like the margoyle, the archer is able to conceal itself against stone with 20% effectiveness.

Habitat/Society: These evil creatures love to shoot passers-by, even those who pose no threat, and thus are rarely found guarding the domiciles of good-aligned persons. When found in the wild, the archer is on an unending hunt, slaying every living thing it meets. More than one village has been routed by one of these gargoyles, who delight in mayhem and bloodshed.  The archer gargoyle is a loner and avoids contact will all others of its kind.

Ecology: Unlike many other kinds of animated gargoyles, the archer has a profound impact on its surroundings because of its tendency to kill every animal and person in its territory, leaving the carcasses to rot. This often causes great ecological upheaval, and special hunting parties are often immediately organized to eliminate the menace of a roving archer gargoyle.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #223 (1995)

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*Gargoyle, Archer*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Building or ruin
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 4 + 5
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage, +1 or better magical weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (4' tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 975

The archer gargoyle is a malicious creation that looks like a cheerful cherub or, more rarely, a ferocious amazon. Its only sizaible weapon or means of attack is a stubby bow and quiver of arrows, apparently carved as part of the statue. The archer typically stands in a fountain or on a ledge high up the wall, or serves as a garden ornament, moving to attack only when an intruder enters its territory.  It can remain motionless as long as it desires.

Combat: The archer can conceal itself against stone so that it is only 20% likely to be spotted under normal conditions.  True to its name, the archer gargoyle uses its bow and arrows as its primary weapon. The bow is not a true bow, and the arrows are stone, but they allow the archer to make an arrowlike magical attack which hits with a THAC0 of 17 and inflicts 1d10 points of damage.  The "arrow" has a range of 120 yards. Even when engaged in melee, the archer uses the bow at point blank range. The archer can be struck only by weapons of +1 or better enchantment.

Habitat/Society: These evil creatures love to shoot passers-by, even those who pose no threat, and thus are rarely found guarding the domiciles of good-aligned persons. When found in the wild, the archer is on an unending hunt, slaying every living thing it meets. More than one village has been routed by one of these gargoyles, who delight in mayhem and bloodshed.  The archer gargoyle is a loner and avoids contact will all others of its kind.

Ecology: The archer need not eat, drink, or sleep.  Unlike other types of gargoyles, the archer has a profound destructive impact on its surroundings, because its tendency to kill every creature and person in its territory, leaving the carcasses to rot. Special hunting parties are often immediately organized to eliminate the menace of a roving archer when one moves into the area.

(Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three version.)


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Once again compared to standard 2e gargoyle...

AC is one worse.

Land speed is same.

HD 4+5 vs. 4+4, so maybe higher Con.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2008)

Arrows are a force effect? It can use them in melee without provoking an AoO, obviously.

Demiurge out.


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## Leopold (Mar 11, 2008)

Normal gargoyle stats:
Abilities:  	Str 15, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7


New stats:
STR:12
Dex: 16
Con: 20
Int: 6
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

AC: +5 natural armor,+3 dex+10=18

Skills: Hide, move silently, Bluff
Feats:  Weapon Focus (Arrow), Point Blank shot


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Based on this


> The archer gargoyle is a malicious *creation*



I think these should actually be constructs, more like the grists than standard gargoyles.  Otherwise, the stats sound good to me.  I agree with Demiurge about the arrows.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think these should actually be constructs, more like the grists than standard gargoyles.  Otherwise, the stats sound good to me.  I agree with Demiurge about the arrows.




I'm beginning to agree.  Couple that with the fact that they don't need to eat, drink, or sleep, and it does sound like a construct.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Let's see what the others think.

Also, they require +1 weapons to hit in the "special defenses" line, so maybe DR5/magic?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, to be fair, in 3.5, ordinary gargoyles don't need to eat, drink or breathe, and they're monstrous humanoids. So I could see the argument going either way. Also, no creation information, so that leans me more towards monstrous humanoid. They could be a creation the same way owlbears are.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Yeah, true enough.  I could go either way at this point.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Well, to be fair, in 3.5, ordinary gargoyles don't need to eat, drink or breathe, and they're monstrous humanoids. So I could see the argument going either way. Also, no creation information, so that leans me more towards monstrous humanoid. They could be a creation the same way owlbears are.




Ahh, nice catch.  Let's stick with monstrous humanoids, then.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

It was suggested upthread that the arrows be a force effect.  Do we want to go this route, or keep them as stone arrows per the original text?

Shall we give them a climb speed or a decent racial bonus in order to reach the ledges where they often perch?


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

> The bow is not a true bow, and the arrows are stone, but they allow the archer to make an arrowlike magical attack which hits with a THAC0 of 17 and inflicts 1d10 points of damage. The "arrow" has a range of 120 yards.



I don't think these are really stone arrows, and force sounds like the closest thing to an "arrowlike magical attack" (unless we want some other kind of energy damage).  I'd also say make this a regular ranged attack (as opposed to touch) unless we want to say the force burns through armor.  Max range of 360 ft, no range increments?  Or make it have a range increment like a bow?  

I'd say give it a slow climb speed since it doesn't seem to have a fly speed like the normal gargoyle.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree to everything freyar's said. Regular attack, force effect, 360 feet, no range increment, climb speed 20ft.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

How's this?

Stonebow (Su):  The archer gargoyle's stonebow is a part of its body, and thus cannot be sundered, disarmed, or otherwise separated from the gargoyle.  The stonebow cannot be recovered and used by other creatures upon the gargoyle's death.  The stonebow fires arrows of force to a maximum range of 360 feet with no range increments, deals 1d10 points of force damage on a successful hit, threatens a critical on a natural 20, and deals triple damage on a successful critical hit.  The stonebow creates its own ammunition and can generate as many arrows per round as the archer gargoyle can make attacks.  It counts as a shortbow for purposes of feats and other effects.

Should we allow the archer to apply its Strength bonus to damage?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I like the stonebow.  I don't think this should get a Str bonus to damage (could go with Cha, if we want, though).  We should also add a line that using the stonebow does not provoke AoOs.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 8 
Hide, Listen, Spot as usual for gargoyles?

Feats: 2
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot?

Challenge Rating: 4? (as standard gargoyle)

Advancement: 5–6 HD (Medium); 7–12 HD (Large)?  (as standard gargoyle)

Level Adjustment: +5 (as standard gargoyle)

An archer gargoyle stands 4 feet tall and weighs X pounds.  (We went with 150 lbs. for the 3-foot-tall spouter)


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Hide 2, Listen 3, Spot 3 for ranks.  Everything else sounds good, and 200 lb sounds about right.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Updated.

On second thought, wouldn't Rapid Shot be more beneficial than Precise Shot, since it is a solitary creature?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Yes, actually that's much better.  And more fun for the DM.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Great.  All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

That looks about right.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Looks done to me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

*Kaluk*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate hills and forests
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 11
THAC0: 10
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: L (9' tall)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 6,000

A greater spirit, the kaluk is a manifestation of human avarice and a scourge of the greedy.

The kaluk resembles an elephant that walks on it hind legs. Its frame is thinner than an elephant’s, and it has a huge, protruding belly. A sparse layer of short silver hair covers its thick black hide, which has the texture of leather and smells like rotting meat.  The beast has the legs and feet of an elephant, but its arms are those of a human  powerhouse. Its fingers are blunt stubs that cannot effectively manipulate tools or weapons. It has ears like a hare, a trunklike snout, and two huge, bulging violet eyes with black pupils. Two crimson tusks extend from its mouth, curving outward to a length of 5 feet. It wears a sparkling cape of golden scales that brushes the ground when it walks.

The kaluk speaks the languages of all animals. It also speaks the trade language, and the languages of any humans common to the area it inhabits.

Combat: The kaluk is motivated by an insatiable lust for wealth.  It continually seeks out human victims to rob. When a kaluk encounters a victim, it demands that he give up all of  his gems, coins, and other treasure. The kaluk has no interest in weapons, unless they are made of precious metals or are encrusted with jewels. The beast has no interested in  magical items, either, except enchanted jewelry or gems, such as a pearl of the rising tide. Victims who offer even token resistance are attacked without mercy. 

The kaluk can make two goring attacks per round with its tusks, inflicting 2-12 (2d6) hit points of damage each. It can use ESP and detect invisibility at will. Three times per day, it can use suggestion and steam breath, as per the spells. It can envelope itself in a stinking cloud three times per day, extending to a radius of 10 feet. Once per month it can place an victim in temporal stasis (suspended animation) by touching the victim with its hand. There is no saving throw. The effects last until the magic is removed by dispel magic or the temporal reinstatement (the reverse of temporal stasis).  The kaluk is immune to all charm, sleep, and hold spells. 

Habitat/Terrain: The kaluk has no permanent lair, roaming the hills and forests that border human settlements in search of victims to rob. Fearful of retaliation, it enters villages or cities only when wilderness victims are especially scarce. 

Kaluk are asexual and do not reproduce biologically. When a kaluk nears the end of its 500-year life span, it seeks out a human who has led a life of greed and avarice. Sometimes a representative of the Celestial Bureaucracy will suggest a suitably greedy human to an aging kaluk. The kaluk tracks down its victim, places him in temporal stasis, and carries him to a secluded wooded area. The kaluk chants and dances around the immobile body for a full day. At the end of the day, the kaluk removes its horns and attaches them to the human’s head. This triggers a transformation; the human becomes a new kaluk.  When the new kaluk appears, the old kaluk dies. Its aged flesh crumbles from its body, leaving only a pile of black bones. The new kaluk is obliged to bury the bones, digging a deep grave in the earth with its tusks. 

Humans can bribe a kaluk to leave them alone by presenting an offering of joss-paper. Joss-paper is a piece of parchment about 4 inches square, made from bamboo wood pulp and imbedded with pieces of gold leaf. If a kaluk who has ambushed a human is offered a section of joss-paper, the beast will accept the joss-paper and attach it to his cape. The kaluk then immediately loses all interest in the human and seeks out a stream or other reflective surface so that he can admire the new addition to his cape. Joss-paper is extremely difficult to manufacture; only characters with the paper-maker proficiency are able to make joss-paper of a quality that is acceptable to kaluk.

Ecology: The kaluk eats all the treasure it acquires, including coins, gems, jewelry, and magical items. All items are digested immediately. A defeated kaluk’s body holds no treasure.
Many people consider the kaluk to be symbol of excess and self-indulgence. They sometime engrave a kaluk head on eating utensils, amulets, and pottery as a reminder to avoid  gluttony.

A kaluk’s arm or leg bone can serve as a club +2. If any tree branch is rubbed in the powdered tusk of a kaluk, it will function as a divining rod as per the spell for the next 1-4 days. A kaluk’s golden cape may fetch as much as 10,000 ch’ien from collectors.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Kara-Tur Appendix (1990).


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Hmmm, outsider or fey?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 19, 2008)

I would go with outsider, with spirit subtype.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Outsider (Native, Spirit) makes sense, but I really like the idea of Fey.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2008)

Don't see a spirit subtype in the SRD.  Which book is it from?  And how different is it from fey, really (in spirit)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Spirit is an OA subtype, which incorporates most fey, incorporeal undead, some elementals and outsiders. Basically, it says "this is Asian-themed", and there's all sorts of wu-jen, shaman and shugenja spells designed to work with spirits.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm leaning toward Outsider (Native, Spirit) as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Do we want to give them two gore attacks? Traditionally, goring is a whole-body event--if it were to have two gores, that'd be equivalent to having tusks that swivel and can target independently. Which is entirely conceivable, although really strange. I'd say give it a gore and two slams (from meaty eleph-ists).

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Ok, let's go with outsider and spirit subtype.

I agree that two gores is a bit strange (though we have had a monster with rotating tusks sometime recently, IIRC!).  Let's go with 1 gore and 2 slams.

Proposed stats (stealing physical ones from the hill giant, just for a start):
Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 19?


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Here are the stats of the equally-sized, elephant-like bipedal outsider from the Fiend Folion, the maelephant:

Str 22, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 15

And while I'm looking at it, at 9 feet tall, it weighs 800 pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

That could work, too, probably a little less powerful in melee.  I'll have to look up the maelephant to see how this should compare...


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

I say we switch Wisdom and Charisma, and give it a bit of a Str boost.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

So how about Str 25, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 19?  (Mixing hill giant with maelephant, changed Int to average, rejiggered to get the correct number of odd abilities.)



> Three times per day, it can use *suggestion* and *steam breath*, as per the spells. It can envelope itself in a *stinking cloud* three times per day, extending to a radius of 10 feet. Once per month it can place an victim in *temporal stasis* (suspended animation) by touching the victim with its hand. There is no saving throw. The effects last until the magic is removed by dispel magic or the temporal reinstatement (the reverse of temporal stasis).




So it should get suggestion as an SLA 3/day (nothing for steam breath in the SRD, maybe we should write an Su ability?) and temporal stasis (no save?) 1/month.  Stinking cloud has medium range and a 20 ft spread in 3.5; do you want to modify it as an Su ability or just give it as a 3/day SLA?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

I agree that steam breath and the stinking cloud should go to Su -> a nauseating aura and a breath weapon, perhaps?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

How about this?  

Nauseating aura (Su):  Three times per day as a standard action, a kaluk can exude a noxious cloud of gas in a 10 ft radius centered on itself, which moves with the kaluk and disperses in X rounds.  Any creature within the cloud (except for a kaluk), must make a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for as long as it remains in the cloud and 1d6 rounds afterwards.  A successful save means that the creature is immune to the nauseating aura of that kaluk for 24 hours.  This is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell (CL X).


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

Nauseating aura looks good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Ok, then, I meant to look up steam breath, but I'll just try this:

Breath Weapon (Su): A kaluk may use a breath weapon three times per day as a standard action, and it must wait 1d4 rounds between uses.  A kaluk's breath weapon is a 30 ft cone of steam, which does 4d6 ? points of fire damage.  A DC X Reflex save halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Updated.



> The kaluk speaks the languages of all animals. It also speaks the trade language, and the languages of any humans common to the area it inhabits.




A kaluk speaks Common and often knows regional languages of its territory.

Does this suffice?

Speak with Animals (Su):  A kaluk continually speaks with animals (as the spell).



> Humans can bribe a kaluk to leave them alone by presenting an offering of joss-paper. Joss-paper is a piece of parchment about 4 inches square, made from bamboo wood pulp and imbedded with pieces of gold leaf. If a kaluk who has ambushed a human is offered a section of joss-paper, the beast will accept the joss-paper and attach it to his cape. The kaluk then immediately loses all interest in the human and seeks out a stream or other reflective surface so that he can admire the new addition to his cape. Joss-paper is extremely difficult to manufacture; only characters with the paper-maker proficiency are able to make joss-paper of a quality that is acceptable to kaluk.




Thoughts?



> A kaluk’s arm or leg bone can serve as a club +2. If any tree branch is rubbed in the powdered tusk of a kaluk, it will function as a divining rod as per the spell for the next 1-4 days. A kaluk’s golden cape may fetch as much as 10,000 ch’ien from collectors.




How do we want to handle that?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2008)

4d6 damage seems awfully low for the breath weapon of a creature of this CR. 

The leg bone, I say we keep, although we should invent a little ritual that can only be done with one bone per kaluk, like bathing it in the heart's blood of the beast (incidentally, we could use that as an excuse to give the kaluk an enhancement bonus to its natural attack rolls). The tusks? Not so much; divining rods no longer exist in game. The cape? We could give kaluks in their treasure actual magical cloaks (like resistance +3, which is worth 9K).

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Feel free to up the damage!  I didn't necessarily want to make it as strong as a dragon, so I kind of guessed at a number.

Agreed with the rest.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 25, 2008)

Here's the steam breath spell from Complete Arcane:

Level: Wu jen 3 (water)
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You expel a powerful breath of superheated steam that extends outward as a cone of scalding mist.  Creatures within the cone take 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6).  The steam clouds dissipate instantly after the damage is dealt.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Here's the steam breath spell from Complete Arcane:
> 
> Level: Wu jen 3 (water)
> Range: 30 ft.
> ...




Great!  So we can just base damage off caster level.  Assuming we use its HD for CL, it will deal the max 10d6 damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The leg bone, I say we keep, although we should invent a little ritual that can only be done with one bone per kaluk, like bathing it in the heart's blood of the beast (incidentally, we could use that as an excuse to give the kaluk an enhancement bonus to its natural attack rolls). The tusks? Not so much; divining rods no longer exist in game. The cape? We could give kaluks in their treasure actual magical cloaks (like resistance +3, which is worth 9K).




BTW, I really like this idea.

Check out the latest update and let me know if that covers it sufficiently.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

That looks pretty good, I think!

Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Survival?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Skills sound good. If we're giving it Survival, we might as well make Track one of its feats. Other possibilities include Ability Focus (for either the breath weapon or the nauseating aura), Multiattack, Power Attack/Cleave, or Improved Initiative.

Oh, and it's "see invisibility" these days, not "detect invisibility".

Kind of late to the party here, but do we want to give them any mechanical benefit for their treasure-eating habits? Borrowing from a greed-themed yugoloth I once statted up gets us:

Monetary Healing (Su): Rapaxoloths heal damage by consuming valuables, such as coins, gems or art objects. Consuming one item, three gems or ten coins is a full round action that provokes attacks of oppurtunity, and the rapaxoloth heals 1d8 points of damage for every 5gp the consumed items are worth.

Although we might want to make more gp per hp healed. Art objects are worth a lot!

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Monetary Healing (Su): Rapaxoloths heal damage by consuming valuables, such as coins, gems or art objects. Consuming one item, three gems or ten coins is a full round action that provokes attacks of oppurtunity, and the rapaxoloth heals 1d8 points of damage for every 5gp the consumed items are worth.
> 
> Although we might want to make more gp per hp healed. Art objects are worth a lot!




I like it!  Mmmm....greed.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah, I like that, too.  Maybe 10gp per hp, at most 10 temporary hp above usual max?

For feats, I'd go with Multiattack, Ability Focus (breath weapon), Track, Power Attack.  Trying to remember if this is the one I thought Track should be a bonus feat for...


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Ooh, good call on it giving them a few temporary hit points. 10 gp/hp is a pretty high ratio, but then again, it's a pretty high CR creature. It probably eats coins just for the hell of it, but might keep a few decent gems on hand for emergency healing.

Do we want to give it any treasure besides its +3 cloak? Coins, double goods?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Maybe just standard coins and goods.  After all, it's probably eaten some just for the taste.

How do the skills and feats look?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

I used freyar's suggested skills, except I swapped Climb for Concentration. I just can't see it climbing with those stubby hands.  

I didn't think it would have any treasure other than the cloak, since it devours it ASAP.  But now that we've added monetary healing, I could see it keeping some "medicine" in reserve.

Armor Class: x (-1 size, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
A maelephant has +11 natural armor.

Challenge Rating: 10?

Advancement: 12-22 HD (Large); 23-33 HD (Huge)?   Or just keep it Large all the way through, since nothing seems to indicate that they gain weight from consumption of wealth?

Fill in the X:

Nauseating Aura (Su): Three times per day as a standard action, a kaluk can exude a noxious cloud of gas in a 10-foot radius centered on itself, which moves with the kaluk and disperses in X rounds. Any creature within the cloud (except for a kaluk), must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or become nauseated for as long as it remains in the cloud and 1d6 rounds afterwards. A successful save means that the creature is immune to the nauseating aura of that kaluk for 24 hours.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2008)

X = 5 rounds.

X also equals +11-+14 natural armor.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Let's go with +14 natural armor.  Advancement to Huge looks fine.

CR 10 is probably ok.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

's alright!

Demiurge out.


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## Leopold (Apr 2, 2008)

i likes it.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

While we're working on the the grave mist...

*Mist, Scarlet Dancer*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN Swamps/sewers
FREOUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Cluster
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil (S)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING 10-100
ARMOR CLASS: 1 (8 after feeding)
MOVEMENT: Fl 24 (A) (12 (B) after feeding)
HIT DICE: 1 per 10 present
THACO: 1 HD: 19 (varies by HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3 per HD
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (2" diameter)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE
10 dancers: 35 60 dancers: 420
20 dancers: 65 70 dancers: 975
30 dancers: 120 80 dancers: 1,400
40 dancers: 175 90 dancers: 2,000
50 dancers: 270 100 dancers: 3,000

A scarlet dancer is similar to a crimson death mist, but is much smaller in size. While it appears as a miniature version of the crimson death, this creature lacks an outward humanoid appearance (such as a face with the look of intelligence). Some sages theorize that scarlet dancers are immature versions of the malevolent crimson death. Scarlet dancers gather together in clusters of 10 to 100.

Combat: Clusters of scarlet dancers can sense the presence of warm-blooded creatures within a 100-foot radius. The red mist that surrounds the dancers draws the blood from their victims, using tentacles of scarlet mist. The amount of blood drained depends on the number of dancers present-the more dancers in a cluster, the more blood is drained from the victim each round. For each 10 scarlet dancers present, the cluster has 1 HD (and appropriate THACO) and drains 1d3 hit points on a successful hit.

Because these creatures are partially mist, metal and leather armor do not protect an intended victim from a cluster of dancers--their misty tentacles permeate the cracks in the armor, seeking out the victim's skin. Only Dexterity adjustments and magical protection can hinder the attack of the dancers.

Before 10 dancers (1 HD) feed, they have an Armor Class of 1, but after draining 7 hit points of blood they are slower and their Armor Class drops to 8. A cluster of 10 scarlet dancers can absorb up to 14 points of blood before the cluster stops attacking to digest its spoils.

Having evolved in the sewers of Zhentil Keep, scarlet dancers cannot stand the light of the sun. Though sunlight does no physical damage to them, the dancers instinctively flee from it to the safety of darkness.

Habitat/Society: The dancers are neither mean nor malicious, but do what they need to in order to survive, as would any animal in need of food. Scarlet dancers need small amounts of blood on a daily basis to survive. If a cluster goes for more than three days without feeding, the dancers of that cluster perish.  However, since the sewers are flooded with vermin and other nasty monsters, fiiding potential supplies of food is seldom a problem.

Most scarlet dancers live in the sewer tunnels below Zhentil Keep. The dancers live in clusters that float throughout the sewers in search of food. The only time they are not flying is when they have consumed their maximum daily allotment of blood (14 hit points per 10 dancers). Then they seek an out-of-the-way place to rest for 1d4 hours. 

The shadowy forces of Zhentil Keep know the locations of five clusters of scarlet dancers in the city sewers. These areas have been marked on certain maps and have gained notoriety by word of mouth. However, Zhentil Keep's sewers are not the only home of the dancers, as many of them live in small clusters throughout the tunnels honeycombing the ground beneath the Keep-and their numbers are greatest in the deepest tunnels.

Ecology: Since only the foolish come down into the sewers beneath the city, scarlet dancers feed mostly on mice, rats, and other warm-blooded denizens living in the bowels of Zhentil Keep. The favorite food of the dancers is humans, since their reproduction requires human blood. While scarlet dancers need human blood to reproduce, any kind of iron-based blood will suffice for nourishment.

The creature's origins are unknown. Some believe that scarlet dancers are but another Zhentarim experiment gone bad.  The truth may lie deep underground beneath Zhentil Keep.  The similarities between scarlet dancers and crimson deaths are unnerving, especially to the lords of Zhentil Keep, who are fearful of a possible outbreak of crimson death mists throughout the city. In fact, crimson deaths and scarlet dancers are in no way biologically related.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Zhentil Keep (1995).


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm thinking "swarm".  Anyone else?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Yeah, and as an incorporeal undead swarm, they're going to be real tough to damage, so I think we should go for the high end of the HD, at least 10.

We could additionally do a "cluster" of 10 at 1HD, but we'd need to justify removing at least the swarm immunities.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Fine Undead (Incorporeal, Swarm)?

Crimson death has Str -, Dex 21, Con -, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 14

These things are only Int 2-4.

Maybe slightly higher Dex, average Wis and Cha?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2008)

Sounds good.  What about Str -, Dex 25, Con -, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 10?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with those scores.

I went with 10 HD since a swarm of fine creatures contains more than 100 individuals, and 100 was the max listed in the original writeup.

Here are the crimson death's abilities that we may wish to port over:

Blood Drain (Ex): A crimson death drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage immediately upon seizing an opponent with a tendril. Each round thereafter that the opponent remains seized, the creature automatically deals an additional 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The crimson death craves blood, so it usually presses its attack until it can deal at least 12 points of Constitution damage.

Seize (Ex): When a crimson death makes a successful incorporeal touch attack, one of its tendrils wraps around the opponent. The two creatures are not considered grappled, but the opponent can break free with a successful Escape Artist or grapple check (grapple bonus +11). Upon seizing an opponent, the crimson death begins draining blood.

Lift (Sp): As a free action, a crimson death can telekinetically lift another creature or an object weighing up to 300 pounds. This ability works like the telekinesis spell (sustained force version, caster level 12th), except that it works only on an opponent already seized by a tendril of the crimson death. Against a struggling opponent, use of this ability requires a successful grapple check (grapple bonus +11).

Skills: *A crimson death's misty form makes it difficult to spot in fog. Before feeding, the creature receives a +8 bonus on Hide checks in smoky or foggy areas. After it has fed, the bonus drops to +4 because of its red coloration.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

You know, all the stuff about reproduction almost makes these things sound alive rather than undead.  Might want to refluff that somehow.

Maybe the swarm damage should be blood drain.  I don't think seize is quite right for these.  We could do something to make it hard to escape once you're surrounded by a scarlet dancer swarm, though (maybe you drag them with you if you leave their space?).


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Sounds good.  Here's how some other swarms handle blood drain...

Blood Drain (Ex): Any living creature damaged by a leech swarm also takes 1 point of Constitution damage as the swarm drains its blood. This damage repeats every round thereafter unless the creature successfully exits the swarm and spends a full-round action removing leeches from its body.

Blood Drain (Ex): A bloodmote cloud drains blood and deals 1d3 points of damage and 1d2 points of Constitution damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move.

Blood Drain (Ex): In addition to swarm damage, a dread blossom swarm deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage to any paralyzed or otherwise immobilized living creature whose space it occupies at the end of its turn.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

I think I like the bloodmote cloud version, though the main difference is just in the numbers.  What CR do you want to aim for?  I think that makes the biggest difference.  I'm going to expect fairly close to 10 due to all the immunities.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

CR 9 would be perfect, as there is currently a glut of CR 10 swarms, but only one official CR 9 swarm.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Sounds good to me.   What about 1d6 swarm damage plus 1d4 Con?

We should also write some sort of "clinging mist" or something to represent the swarm version of seize, but I'm not sure how to do it.  Since these are incorporeal, the leech swarm version doesn't seem quite right.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

How about something like this?

Cling (Ex):  Once a swarm of scarlet dancers surrounds a creature, they cling to the victim with incorporeal tendrils.  The victim is free to move and is not considered grappled, but the scarlet dancer swarm moves with the victim; thus, the victim will begin its next turn with the swarm in its space, and will be vulnerable to the swarm's distraction ability.  The victim may escape with a successful DC X Escape Artist check, a freedom of movement effect, or by slaying the swarm.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes!  And the check DC can be Dex-based.  I think I'd also allow Tumble checks to escape.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Updated.



> Clusters of scarlet dancers can sense the presence of warm-blooded creatures within a 100-foot radius.




Lifesense 100 feet?



> The only time they are not flying is when they have consumed their maximum daily allotment of blood (14 hit points per 10 dancers). Then they seek an out-of-the-way place to rest for 1d4 hours.




We'll need to add the satiation amount to blood drain.  Maybe 20 points?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes and yes.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Updated.



> Before 10 dancers (1 HD) feed, they have an Armor Class of 1, but after draining 7 hit points of blood they are slower and their Armor Class drops to 8. A cluster of 10 scarlet dancers can absorb up to 14 points of blood before the cluster stops attacking to digest its spoils.




How about revising blood drain like so?

Blood Drain (Ex): A scarlet dancer swarm drains blood and deals 1d6 points of damage and 1d6 points of Constitution damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Once it has dealt 20 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to "digest" the meal for 1d4 hours.  While sated, the scarlet dancer moves at only half speed and its maneuverability is reduced to good.  It also loses its Dexterity bonus to AC. If its victim dies before the swarm's appetite has been sated, the swarm seeks a new target.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Sounds good.  I'm glad you're on a roll since I'm preoccupied...


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 13
Crimson death has Concentration, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Search, Spot

I can't really see a reason to keep Concentration or the Knowledge skills.

Feats: 4
Crimson death has Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Spring Attack (B)

I could defintely see keeping Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.  Many of the other feats won't work well for a swarm.

Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-x swarms)


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Let's drop Search, also.  So 4 in Hide, 4 in Listen, 5 in Spot?

Imp Init and Lightning Reflexes are fine as bonus feats, or they could be regular feats if we can't come up with enough.  Great Fort would work, and so could Ability Focus (distraction).  (Don't want to do Cling, because that's just asking for a TPK I think.)  Alertness, maybe Stealthy.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> Imp Init and Lightning Reflexes are fine as bonus feats, or they could be regular feats if we can't come up with enough.




Yeah, let's do that, as they've got plenty of feats.  Stealthy is kind of pointless, since they always Move Silently.  Skill Focus (Hide) is overkill, since they get a crazy high modifier already from being Fine and having high Dex.


Environment: Any marsh or underground?

Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-x swarms)

Treasure: None?  (Type S is 1-8 potions, which I find a bit odd...)


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

2-5 swarms, no treasure, environment is good.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

I think they have an extra feat.  Let's drop Lightning Reflexes (give people a fighting chance against them).


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Nice catch!

Updated.

And, although it is implied in swarm traits, it is common to mention this...

"A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage."

TPK indeed!


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Hmmm, should we bump the CR to 11?  Now, why does that remind me of Spinal Tap?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

"But these creatures go to 11..."  

Yeah, upon further review, they may be a bit too tough for CR 9.  However, they have much lower damage output (including Con damage) than both the CR 10 scarab swarm and CR 11 razoreel swarm.  The scarab swarm is also Fine, so gains immunity to weapon damage.  Are the incorporeal traits enough to justify a bump to CR 10?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, the other thing is that your big clunky fighter types may have a real hard time getting away from these (unless the cleric happened to prepare freedom of movement).  You know, I could see CR 9 if we allow a Ref save as an alternative to the checks to escape Cling.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Like so?

Cling (Ex): Once a swarm of scarlet dancers surrounds a creature, they cling to the victim with incorporeal tendrils. The victim is free to move and is not considered grappled, but the scarlet dancer swarm moves with the victim; thus, the victim will begin its next turn with the swarm in its space, and will be vulnerable to the swarm's distraction ability. The victim may escape with a successful DC 22 Reflex save, a DC 22 Escape Artist or Tumble check, a freedom of movement effect, or by slaying the swarm. The save and check DCs are Dexterity-based.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah, the slow types will at least have some bonus to Ref saves...  Do you think that gets it down to CR 9?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

I think so.  Ready for the next one?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

*Bog Hound*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamp
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (3)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 2+2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d4/1d4/1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ long)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 65 each

*Moor Hound*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamp
FREQUENCY: One per pack
ORGANIZATION: Pack leader
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d6/1d6/1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
SIZE: L (7’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Bog hounds are large dogs, about the size of war dogs, created from a cursed bog. Sculpted of straw and mud, the hounds are given life by wicked magic or a curse. They are sometimes created by the exceptionally strong will of a creature that can shape life.

Their color is a muddy brown with splotches of yellow, and their most frightening feature is their lack of eyes; they have only empty black sockets.

Each pack of bog hounds is led by a moor hound, an individual creature of exceptional strength and power. As long this creature exists, the pack cannot be permanently destroyed.

Combat: When hunting, bog hounds set up an unearthly howling that only subsides when they close in. They attack by flanking their victims and closing from all sides at once. In combat, they act as ordinary hounds, unless their pack leader (the moor hound) or their master instructs them to perform another task. When slain, they return to their original materials, dissolving into scattered straw and mud as a gasp of vapor escapes from the bodies. (In some cases the power of the animating curse may form additional bog hound bodies over time, in other cases the master might construct more.)

The bog hounds are vulnerable to natural sunlight. If they are exposed to the sun, their supernatural essence evaporates like fog, and they become inanimate statues of straw and mud, trapped in the pose in which the light first caught them These can be destroyed by the slightest touch; unless extreme care is taken they cannot be moved.

Habitat/Society: Once the bog hounds are created, the moor hound leads them in whatever tasks their creator desires. The pack is under the control of the being who brought them to life. The pack has no other soda1 order except that they follow the moor hound.

Ecology: The bog hound pack is created by a powerful curse or possibly by malevolent necromantic magic.  While their diet is listed as carnivorous, in truth they need to eat nothing.  When they attack, they savage and devour any living creature of flesh and bone that they hunt.  They gain no sustenance from eating; they are simply supernaturally vicious.

The Moor Hound:  Unlike the bog hounds, the moor hound is formed wholly of the vapors of the bog.  It is a coal-black creature with flaming red eyes.  Its jaws can easily fit around a full grown mans head, and are powerful enough to snap bone.

The moor hound can be hit only by magical weapons of at least +1 enchantment; however, it only seems to suffer real damage from them.  It can be destroyed only after it has been exposed to sunlight; otherwise, once it has been reduced to 0 hit points or below the moor hound bounds off to regenerate.  It always leaves a trail of blood that leads directly to a bog or pool of quicksand, but no further trace of the moor hound can be found until the next night, when it comes back fully regenerated.

If not exposed to sunlight, the moor hound cannot die.  It can, however, be captured.  If even the slightest beam of sunlight directly hits the moor hound, any apparent damage it took before exposure suddenly becomes real, perhaps slaying it outright.  Further, the moor hound can then be hit by ordinary weapons and permanently killed, breaking the curse that gave it life.  When the moor hound dies, a ghostly howling marks its passage into nothingness.  All bog hounds of its pack immediately crumble into mud and straw as their howls answer and follow those of the pack leader.

Originally appeared in Howls in the Night (1994).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

Constructs or magical beasts? I could see an argument for both.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

I lean toward constructs, though probably with unusual creation prereqs.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

I was thinking undead, but I could see constructs, or even evil fey.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

Definately gunning for construct here. If we want to make them more undead-feeling, we could make them tomb-tainted. Not vulnerable to turning, I don't think, but healed by negative energy and harmed by positive.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Tomb-tainted constructs is nice, and it fits with the idea that they're created through necromancy.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Tomb-tainted constructs works for me.

Let's try to figure out abilty scores...

Riding Dog (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Blink Dog (M): Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Shadow Mastiff (M): Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13

Int is given as 3.  As constructs, no Con score.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Since these have 2 HD, same as the riding dog, let's just modify those slightly.  AC is one less than the riding dog.  I'm going to say natural armor of mud and peat is similar to that of fur, so I'll take it out of Dex.  I'll also bump Cha to go with Int.

Bog hound: Str 16, Dex 13, Con -, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8?

The moor hound should probably be beefed up compared to the shadow mastiff, since it has 4 more HD.  

Moor hound: Str 22, Dex 13, Con -, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Combat: When hunting, bog hounds set up an unearthly howling that only subsides when they close in.




Flavor only?



> They attack by flanking their victims and closing from all sides at once.




Increased flanking bonus?



> Each pack of bog hounds is led by a moor hound, an individual creature of exceptional strength and power. As long this creature exists, the pack cannot be permanently destroyed.






> When slain, they return to their original materials, dissolving into scattered straw and mud as a gasp of vapor escapes from the bodies. (In some cases the power of the animating curse may form additional bog hound bodies over time, in other cases the master might construct more.)




Something like ghost's rejuvenation?



> The bog hounds are vulnerable to natural sunlight. If they are exposed to the sun, their supernatural essence evaporates like fog, and they become inanimate statues of straw and mud, trapped in the pose in which the light first caught them These can be destroyed by the slightest touch; unless extreme care is taken they cannot be moved.




Essentially petrified in sunlight, but with much less hardness/hps?



> When the moor hound dies, a ghostly howling marks its passage into nothingness.  All bog hounds of its pack immediately crumble into mud and straw as their howls answer and follow those of the pack leader.




We should probably note this ability in both bog hound and moor hound 
entries.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Bonus from flanking increased to +4, does +2 damage when flanking as well?

Agree to the petrifaction in sunlight and rejuvenation.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2008)

We can modify what we wrote for the night dragon:


> Pack Tactics (Ex): When two or more night dragons flank an opponent, they receive double the normal bonus on attack rolls (+4), and can flank creatures that cannot normally be flanked (due to greater uncanny dodge, all-around vision, etc.) Additionally, a night dragon flanking an opponent deals an additonal +1d6 points of damage for each night dragon within 30 feet.



Is +1d6 damage/bog hound too much?  Maybe just +1d6 total in this case.  Same question about flanking unflankables.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> We can modify what we wrote for the night dragon:
> 
> Is +1d6 damage/bog hound too much?  Maybe just +1d6 total in this case.  Same question about flanking unflankables.




I could see just +1/hound, and dropping the flanking the unflankable.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Shade said:


> I could see just +1/hound, and dropping the flanking the unflankable.



Sounds reasonable; still scales with the pack size, but it's not ridiculous.  These aren't dragons after all.   I'll throw in a slight extra bonus for the moor hound.

Pack Tactics (Ex): When two or more bog hounds flank an opponent, they receive double the normal bonus on attack rolls (+4). Additionally, a bog hound flanking an opponent deals an additonal +1 point of damage for each bog hound within 30 feet.  A moor hound counts as 2 bog hounds for determining the damage bonus.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Sounds pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

> The bog hound pack is created by a powerful curse or possibly by malevolent necromantic magic. While their diet is listed as carnivorous, in truth they need to eat nothing. When they attack, they savage and devour any living creature of flesh and bone that they hunt. They gain no sustenance from eating; they are simply supernaturally vicious.




Do we want to keep this flavor text, or come up with some mechanics for their creation?

Skills: 5
Feats: 1

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: x

Rejuvenation (Su): As long as the moor hound leading a pack exists, the bog hounds within its pack cannot be destroyed through simple combat. If reduced to 0 hit points or fewer in combat, a bog hound dissolves into scattered straw and mud as a gasp of vapor escapes from its body. The supernatural essence *restores its physical body in x days*. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. When the moor hound leading a pack is destroyed, it releases a ghostly howl, immediately answered by all remaining bog hounds of its pack, before they crumble forever into mud and straw.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

I think we should come up with some Craft Construct details. Requires animate dead, lesser geas/quest, false life and... any good teamwork-related spells? Good hope? Summon monster III?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

Those spells seem reasonable.  Good hope would pretty much limit these to being created by bards, though.  Maybe geas/quest will cover it.

1d4 days for rejuvenate?  Want to put in something that they can't rejuvenate if they're destroyed while petrified?  That would seem to make the vulnerability more important.

CR2 seems good.

Spot or maybe Move Silently for the skill.  Probably Spot.

Power Attack?

Are we still making these tomb-tainted like the callicantzari?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated, including a Construction section.

Yeah, good hope feels odd for an evil creature.     What about prayer (benefits allies while detriment to foes) or shield other?

Advancement: 3-7 HD (Medium)?  That way they won't surpass the weakest moor hound.

A bog hound is about 6 feet long and weighs x pounds.

After working through them, I'm not sure if tomb-tainted is still appropriate.  What do you guys think?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated, including a Construction section.
> 
> Yeah, good hope feels odd for an evil creature.     What about prayer (benefits allies while detriment to foes) or shield other?



Both prayer and shield other are divine-only spells. Wizards can cast good hope, was the idea.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Both prayer and shield other are divine-only spells. Wizards can cast good hope, was the idea.




Isn't it bard-only, though?

What about misdirection?   It doesn't affect flanking mechanically, but flavor-wise it could symbolize the confusion?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Would have sworn wizards get good hope... misdirection works, though.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

At least per the SRD, it is relegated to the seldom-used wasteland of bard spells.  

Any thoughts on the appropriateness of tomb-tainted?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Shade said:


> At least per the SRD, it is relegated to the seldom-used wasteland of bard spells.
> 
> Any thoughts on the appropriateness of tomb-tainted?



Given that crushing despair is on the sorc/wiz list, you do have to wonder if good hope was supposed to be there, too.

Tomb-tainted probably isn't too necessary, but let's keep trying to flavor the craft prereqs necromantically.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> Tomb-tainted probably isn't too necessary, but let's keep trying to flavor the craft prereqs necromantically.




Here's where it currently sits.  Need more necromancy?

Construction

A bog hound's body must be sculpted from straw and mud weighing at least x pounds, treated with rare oils and powders worth x gp. Creating the body requires a DC x Craft (sculpting) check or a DC x Craft (weaving) check.

CL xth; Craft Construct, animate dead, false life, lesser geas/quest, misdirection, caster must be at least xth level; Price x gp; Cost x + x XP.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Make it rare oils and powders distilled from a hound's corpse, and I'm happy.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> Make it rare oils and powders distilled from a hound's corpse, and I'm happy.




How about corpse fats and the ashes of a hound who died protecting its master?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> How about corpse fats and the ashes of a hound who died protecting its master?



Excellent!


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Indeed!  Perfectly creepy.  

Fill in the x's...

A bog hound's body must be sculpted from straw and mud weighing at least x pounds, treated with corpse fats and the ashes of a hound who died protecting its master. Creating the body requires a DC x Craft (sculpting) check or a DC x Craft (weaving) check.

CL xth; Craft Construct, animate dead, false life, lesser geas/quest, misdirection, caster must be at least xth level; Price x gp; Cost x + x XP.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

75 lb.  DC 20 for either check.  CL 7?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

3,000 gp for the price?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

3000 seems reasonable.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the moor hound?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Sure. Shouldn't be all that different, right?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

*Moor Hound*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamp
FREQUENCY: One per pack
ORGANIZATION: Pack leader
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d6/1d6/1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
SIZE: L (7’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The Moor Hound: Unlike the bog hounds, the moor hound is formed wholly of the vapors of the bog. It is a coal-black creature with flaming red eyes. Its jaws can easily fit around a full grown mans head, and are powerful enough to snap bone.

The moor hound can be hit only by magical weapons of at least +1 enchantment; however, it only seems to suffer real damage from them. It can be destroyed only after it has been exposed to sunlight; otherwise, once it has been reduced to 0 hit points or below the moor hound bounds off to regenerate. It always leaves a trail of blood that leads directly to a bog or pool of quicksand, but no further trace of the moor hound can be found until the next night, when it comes back fully regenerated.

If not exposed to sunlight, the moor hound cannot die. It can, however, be captured. If even the slightest beam of sunlight directly hits the moor hound, any apparent damage it took before exposure suddenly becomes real, perhaps slaying it outright. Further, the moor hound can then be hit by ordinary weapons and permanently killed, breaking the curse that gave it life. When the moor hound dies, a ghostly howling marks its passage into nothingness. All bog hounds of its pack immediately crumble into mud and straw as their howls answer and follow those of the pack leader.

Originally appeared in Howls in the Night (1994).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Created from the mists of the bog... do we want to make it either gaseous or incorporeal?


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Upthread, I suggested:


> The moor hound should probably be beefed up compared to the shadow mastiff, since it has 4 more HD.
> 
> Moor hound: Str 22, Dex 13, Con -, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13?




Another question: should the creation of a moor hound be a prereq for creation of bog hounds?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Created from the mists of the bog... do we want to make it either gaseous or incorporeal?




I think gaseous, like the phiuhl, probably is most appropriate.



freyar said:


> Another question: should the creation of a moor hound be a prereq for creation of bog hounds?




Good point.  Probably, since their survival is linked to the moor hound.

Those ability scores should work, unless gaseous necessitates adjustments.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm at work and don't have books on me. Do gaseous creatures get a Str score?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Phiuhls have Str 11.  So let's go with Str here.  Besides, from the description, these are kind of semi-solid once created anyway, at least the way I read it.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

> SIZE: L (7’ long)




Since 7 foot long is Medium now, do we want to keep 'em Medium or make their proportions better fit Large?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Let's make them Large.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I left the bog hound's rejuvenation and construction as placeholders, but they will need to be changed.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2008)

> The moor hound can be hit only by magical weapons of at least +1 enchantment; however, it only seems to suffer real damage from them. It can be destroyed only after it has been exposed to sunlight; otherwise, once it has been reduced to 0 hit points or below the moor hound bounds off to regenerate. It always leaves a trail of blood that leads directly to a bog or pool of quicksand, but no further trace of the moor hound can be found until the next night, when it comes back fully regenerated.




Rather than rejuvenation, these guys seem to have something more like a strange form of regeneration like the vampire's strange fast healing.  I'll write that up soon.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2008)

I think it'd be easier to give them rejuvenation, unless we want to come up with a way to kill a moor hound while it's buried in quicksand.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

The idea is that they are only destroyed in sunlight.  Here's what I propose:

Daily Regeneration (Su): Damage done to a moor hound is only nonlethal damage.  Whenever a moor hound would become unconscious due to nonlethal damage, it flees, trailing ghostly blood to the nearest swamp or bog, where it disappears into the ground.  The next night, it re-emerges, completely healed.  This ability is negated in natural sunlight (see Vulnerability to Sunlight).

Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex): If exposed to natural sunlight (but not a daylight spell or other artificial light) to the slightest degree, a moor hound loses its Daily Regeneration ability until the following sundown.  Any nonlethal damage the moor hound has instantly becomes lethal damage, and any further damage (that is not prevented by the moor hound's DR) the moor hound takes is lethal or nonlethal as normal.

It's a little clunky still, but I think it's faithful to the original and not any weirder than the vampire.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

That seems like a good start.  What do you think, Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm still not a huge fan. There's nothing a group of PCs can do to actually kill the damn thing. It escapes into the bog, there's no way to drag it out into the sunlight, it comes back tomorrow with no penalty. At least you can track a vampire to its coffin and stake it.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm still not a huge fan. There's nothing a group of PCs can do to actually kill the damn thing. It escapes into the bog, there's no way to drag it out into the sunlight, it comes back tomorrow with no penalty. At least you can track a vampire to its coffin and stake it.



What would be the criterion for stopping the rejuvenation, if we do that?  I'm open to suggestions, but I don't know what you'd prefer.  I think it should be difficult to kill these things and should involve sunlight somehow.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 10, 2008)

I think there should be a way to exhume them from the bog to expose them to sunlight.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

What if we do this?

Daily Regeneration (Su): Damage done to a moor hound is only nonlethal damage. Whenever a moor hound would become unconscious due to nonlethal damage, it flees, trailing ghostly blood to the nearest swamp or bog, where it disappears into the ground. The next night, it re-emerges, completely healed. This ability is negated in natural sunlight (see Vulnerability to Sunlight).

The patch of swamp or bog containing a regenerating moor hound emits a strange mist at all times, which requires a DC 15? Spot check to notice.  The regenerating moor hound can be exhumed from the ground by digging up a cube of earth 10 feet on a side (or by use of a move earth spell or similar magic).  The regenerating moor hound is helpless until sunset, and, if exposed to sunlight, can be killed.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

That strikes me as more fair.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

Updated.

I made a slight name change to the ability. Does that sound OK?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

I like it.  Any thoughts on the Spot DC?  And any other SAs?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

I think DC 15 works.

Damage reduction x/magic?

Skills: 33 (We gave bog hounds max ranks in Spot)

Feats: 3  (Bog hound has Power Attack)


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

Let's drop the ? on Spot DC 15, then.

How about maxing out Intimidate, Listen, & Spot?

Power Attack, Flyby Attack (its speed is a fly speed, right?), Weapon Focus (bite)?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Skills sound fine, although we might consider Survival/Track.

As for the flight...I don't know.  Thoughts?

Thoughts on the damage reduction?


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm fine with either dropping Intimidate completely or dividing the ranks in quarters to accommodate Survival.  Track also seems appropriate, and we can avoid one problem by replacing FlyBy Attack.  But I think we do need to specify what kind of speed it has.  I guess the original monster just had a land speed, so maybe we should modify the Gaseous SQ.

I think DR 10 sounds about right.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

How about this?

Gaseous (Ex): A moor hound's insubstantial form grants it immunity to critical hits. A moor hound doesn't actually fly, but floats just above the ground.  As a result, it is not subject to ground terrain effects, such as ice or a grease spell, but it is subject to winds as if it were a flying creature. It cannot wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings--even mere cracks. It also can occupy squares occupied by enemies.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Gaseous looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6?

Advancement: x

A moor hound is about x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

CR 6 seems about right.

9-16 HD (Large)?

10 ft and 50 lb (since it's somewhat gaseous)?

Rather than mud and straw, maybe it should be made from peat filled with swamp gas?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

Add gaseous form to prereqs?

CL 9th?

10,000 gp?


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

All that sounds right!


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Some problems I see.

1) The mention that the moor hound's gaseous body is immune to critical hits is redundant, as all constructs are.

2) The moor hound is, as written, technically immortal, since constructs are also immune to non-lethal damage. We should just say, "when a moor hound is reduced to 0 hit points...", rather than mucking about with nonlethal damage.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Good catch!  Let's change that.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Indeed.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Is the reference to bog hounds in pack tactics intentional?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Let's tack on "and can therefore be destroyed" to the end of the Vulnerability to Sunlight, and then I think it's done.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Is the reference to bog hounds in pack tactics intentional?



I thought so, since the moor hound counts double.  Maybe we should clarify that a little, though.  We could just add a first sentence "Moor hounds always work in concert with a pack of bog hounds."


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Done now?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I think so.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

I think so too.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Peltast *(Dragon #84 version)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 4"
HIT DICE: 1 + 6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise feeding; poisons water
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to poison and blunt weapon attacks; mimicry; fire resistance
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 7%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (see below)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
AttacklDcfense Modes: Nil/Nil
LEVEL/X. P.VALUE: III/81 + 2/hp

The peltast is a curious creature that can exist in symbiosis with a human or humanoid creature. Demi-humans, such as elves or dwarves, do not seem right for its needs, and it uses them only as "carriers" to convey itself to a more suitable host.

A peltast is a small, amorphous creature without visible organs or limbs, about the size of three fists in volume. Its skin has a textured, mottled brown hue resembling worn but sturdy leather. A peltast can change its shape in 2 rounds to resemble any leathery item of clothing or accoutrements worn next to the skin, commonly a leather boot, belt, thong, wristband, strap, glove, or cap. Quite often, if it sees a suitable host creature drop such an item, it will swiftly move and change form so as to be mistaken for the missing item. A peltast feels like leather, does not breathe, give off heat, or make any sound, and is of about the same weight as leather (though with no odor).

When donned, a peltast exudes a liquid which serves as an anesthetic and a tissue softener; there is only a 1% chance that the host will feel something amiss. The peltast is skilled in its surgery, using this liquid with pinpoint precision to open a small wound in its victim by dissolving the skin in a small, hidden area. Through this contact, it "feeds" on its victim, absorbing 1 hp of blood-borne nutrients every day. A healthy host will likely never notice the slight weakness this causes, and will never fall ill from the peltast's feeding since the body, with rest, will recuperate 1 hp each night.

A peltast will leave a diseased host, but while attached it will neutralize any insinuated poisons in the bloodstream, feeding on the venom itself. The peltast has an interest inkeeping its host alive; should the host be reduced to 1 hp or less and still live, the peltast will inject 3-6 hp of energy back into the host (it can do this only once per day). 

A peltast has a slight magic resistance, and this protection is extended to its host (being added to any natural or magically bestowed resistance possessed by the host).

A peltast's skin can sense vibrations, distinguish scents with acute sensitivity, and can see up to 6" both with infravision and normal vision through tiny, flat eyes which it can conceal entirely within its form or reveal through slits when in use. A peltast exudes any waste material from itself whenever immersed in water (thus staining and poisoning the water; anyone who drinks the same water must save vs. poison at +2 or become nauseated for 2-8 rounds, unable to attack or defend). Peltasts apparently live for more than sixty years, are asexual, and all saving throws vs. fire and is unaffected walls, ceilings, etc., even when these are reproduce by dividing into two smaller, identical creatures, which grow as fast as the food supply permits.

A peltast’s body is resilient; it gains +1 on all saving throws vs. fire and is unaffected by crushing blows or attacks by blunt weapons. All edged-weapon cuts do normal damage.  Peltasts move by creeping, worm- like, along any surface. They can stick to walls, ceilings, etc., even when these are wet or oily.  A peltast will never fight another peltast, nor join a host already carrying one; peltasts can somehow sense each other from up to 4” away.

*Peltast* (Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version)
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 4
HIT DICE: 1+6
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to poison and crushing attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 7%
SIZE: T (under 2’ long unless stretched very thin)
MORALE: Steady (12)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 65

A peltast is an amorphous creature about the size of three human fists in volume.  Its skin has a textured, mottled brown hue resembling worn but sturdy leather.  A peltast can change its shape to exactly match a leather item in two rounds.  If a peltast sees a leather item dropped, it swiftly moves and changes form so as to be mistaken for the missing item.  A peltast feels and hefts like leather, and does not breathe, give off heat, or make any sound.  It has no tanning odor, nor does it radiate magic.  A peltast’s skin can sense vibrations, smell acutely, and its many tiny, concealable eyes have 60-foot infravision.

Combat:  In contact with suitable flesh, a peltast exudes a liquid anesthetic and tissue softener.  There is only a 1% chance that a host creature will notice its attack.  The peltast dissolves the host’s skin in a small, hidden area.  Through this, it absorbs 1 hit point/day of blood-borne nutrients.  A healthy host may never notice the slight weakness this causes.  If the peltast is removed, there is no telltale peeling, pulling, or blood.

The peltast is resilient and is immune to poison and crushing attacks, but all edged weapons do full damage.  Peltasts also gain a +1 on saving throws vs. fire.

Habitat/Society:  The peltast infests dungeon settings.  The peltast can be encountered in urban settings, especially where there are direct connections with dungeons or sewer systems below; the most common forms these are found in are discarded coin bags, belts, hats, or gloves.

Ecology:  Peltasts live in symbiosis with humans and all goblinkind.  Elves and dwarves aren’t right for its needs, and are used only as carriers to more suitable hosts.

A peltast will leave a diseased host, but helps keep its host alive while attached.  It neturalizes poisons introduced into the host.  Its slight magic resistance is also extended to the host.  Should the host be reduced to two hit points or less, the peltast will inject 1d4+2 points of energy back into the host; it can do this only once per day.

A peltast exudes wastes whenever immersed in water, staining and poisoning it; drinkers must save vs. poison at a +2 bonus or become nauseated for 2d4 rounds, unable to attack or defend.

A peltast will never fight another peltast, nor willingly join a host already carrying one.  Peltasts can sense each other up to 40 feet away.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

Aberration (Symbiont)?


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Does seem that way.  Fun!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

The injection of energy could be modeled by close wounds--a tiny bit of healing as an immediate action. Other benefits include immunity to poison... do we want to keep the original granting the host weak spell resistance?


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  Maybe SR 5, unstacking?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

I was going to suggest 7 or 10, but the same basic ballpark. Low.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2008)

That works, too.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Let's figure out ability scores.

Similar symbionts have...

Crawling Gauntlet:  Str 6, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 10, Ego 3
Handlinger: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 15, Ego 19
Psionic Sinew:  Str 14, Dex 3, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 11, Ego 6

We're given an Int of 8-10.

How about Str 6, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12, Ego (to be determined based on symbiont formula)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

That sounds perfectly reasonable.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Borrow some of this?

Anesthetize (Ex): A creature bitten by a giant leech must succeed on a Spot check (opposed by the giant leech's Hide check) to notice the attack if both the leech and its target are in murky water at least 2 feet deep. Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Spot check to notice the leech, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first. Characters attacked in clear water, or who have some means of detecting the leech without seeing it, notice the attack immediately.

Neutralize Poison (Su): Once per day, a gutworm can negate any poison introduced into its host's body (not just ingested poisons), protecting its host from any ill effects.

Mimic Shape (Ex): A mimic can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet), such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a wide door frame. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the mimic can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

That all looks good.  Though I think the neutralize poison should be all the time, not just 1/day.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

The gutworm's neutralize poison was probably inspired by the peltast. Only fair to steal it back.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Looking pretty good!  Next:

Share Spell Resistance (Su): A peltast grants its host its spell resistance, which stacks with any SR the host already possesses.

SR 7 as demiurge suggested?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Looking pretty good!  Next:

Share Spell Resistance (Su): A peltast grants its host its spell resistance, which stacks with any SR the host already possesses.

SR 7 as demiurge suggested?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

+10 racial for Disguise?  And max out Disguise ranks (and perhaps Hide as well).

Is there a good precedent for the "foul water" ability?

Oh, and let's add the Anesthetize ability.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Is there a good precedent for the "foul water" ability?




There's the black dragon's corrupt water ability.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Ok, we have


> A peltast exudes any waste material from itself whenever immersed in water (thus staining and poisoning the water; anyone who drinks the same water must save vs. poison at +2 or become nauseated for 2-8 rounds, unable to attack or defend).



vs


> Corrupt Water (Sp): Once per day an adult or older black dragon can stagnate 10 cubic feet of water, making it become still, foul, and unable to support animal life. The ability spoils liquids containing water. Magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature’s possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence) or become fouled. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. Its range is equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence.




Maybe something like:

Foul Water (Ex): A peltast placed in water exudes waste materials; this fouls a 5 ft cube of water.  A creature that drinks or bathes in fouled water must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds.  If the 5 ft cube is part of a larger body of water, the foulness dissipates in 1d6 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

That looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.

We'll need to determine how it deals damage before we can use the anesthetize ability.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Bite 1 hp plus attach?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

That might work.  And note that it generally only bites once per day once attached?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh, and that can be how it drains the hp per day, sure!


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Looking good!

+1 natural armor would match the original AC when attached at least.

DR 3?  Resistance to electricity and fire 5?  Hide for the rest of the skill ranks.  Stealthy?  Or maybe Deceitful?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Skill Focus (disguise) over Deceitful. When is it going to be making Forgery checks? I'd prefer Stealthy to either of those, though.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Good point.  Let's do Stealthy though.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> When is it going to be making Forgery checks? I'd prefer Stealthy to either of those, though.




Well, it does emulate a glove.  

Stealthy sounds good.

Updated.



> A peltast's skin can sense vibrations, distinguish scents with acute sensitivity, and can see up to 6" both with infravision and normal vision through tiny, flat eyes which it can conceal entirely within its form or reveal through slits when in use.




Blindsense, blindsight, or tremorsense?



> Peltasts can sense each other up to 40 feet away.




Telepathic link?



> Peltasts move by creeping, worm- like, along any surface. They can stick to walls, ceilings, etc., even when these are wet or oily.




Climb speed?  Wallcrawling?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Sounds like tremorsense and darkvision.  

Not sure about the telepathic link.  Maybe just some sort of telepathic sensing.

I'd say a slow climb speed.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

The thing about scents + vibration makes me think blindsense. A slow climb speed with wallcrawling sounds right to me.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The thing about scents + vibration makes me think blindsense. A slow climb speed with wallcrawling sounds right to me.



Fair enough.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Let's go with blindsense and darkvision, and the slow climb speed + wallcrawling.

Updated.



> The Ego score of a symbiont is determined in the same way as that of an intelligent magic item, and listed with each symbiont's entry in the Abilities line. Add the symbiont's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma bonuses (if any) to determine its base Ego score. Add 1 for each special quality and 2 for each special attack. Add 4 if the symbiont is an outsider.




Ego = +0 Int, +0 Wis, +1 Cha, +4 for special attacks, +4 for special qualities = 9?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

That ego score sounds right.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

So DR, immunities, resistance, SR, and symbiont traits don't count, I guess?  (Incidentally, the score sounds fine to me, I'm just curious.)


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Environment: Any urban or underground?

Challenge Rating: 1 (singly) or host +1 (when worn)?

Advancement: None?  (There's a greater peltast to be convereted next, with 2 HD)


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes to all three, then.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

A peltast is about 2 feet long (when stretched) and weighs less than a pound?

Peltasts cannot speak, but understand x.  (if any language)


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

I could see either Common or Undercommon.  Size and weight look right.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

They should definitely understand Common. Undercommon too.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.   Complete?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Looks done to me. On to the greater peltast?


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Looks good here too.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

*Peltast, Greater*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 4
HIT DICE: 2 +6
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to poison and crushing attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 33%
SIZE: T (amorphous)
MORALE: Elite (14)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 975

These rarer peltasts resemble translucent rock crystals instead of leather. Hard to the touch and about the size of a human fist, thev can alter the internal hue and shape of their bodies. No organs or structures are visible in a greater peltast, and over the centuries they have learned to shape themselves into exact semblances of faceted gems, valued by many creatures.  Greater peltasts are found deep underground, and rarely, if ever, in a city. They often hide among real gemstones.

Greater peltasts can be seen feeding: the blood they ingest is visible inside their bodies. They also grow visibly upon draining more than 3 hit points of nutrients (a greater peltast can typically drain up to 12 hit points, half of which are added to its hit point total for a day). Because of this, greater peltasts prefer to feed on sleeping, dead, or disabled creatures, using their magical powers to fetch more meals.

Once a round, a greater peltast can silently use one of its abilities: call monsters (like a monster summoning VI spell, but used to call hostile creatures against its carrier until a good meal opportunity develops); a powerful suggestion (-1 on subject saving throws) to influence called creatures and other beings around them into creating the maximum possible bloodshed without depriving the greater peltast of all potential host-creatures; and
Slow on any being touching or carrying the greater peltast.

These "false gems" have exceptional intelligence and are more powerful than the common variety.  They otherwise drain a host, and give benefits, exactly as do their lesser cousins.

Originally appeared in Halls of the High King (1990).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

OK, we're going to have to tone down that summon monster for the HD to be anywhere near the CR.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed.  Or maybe something like the shrieker rather than a specific summon monster ability?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

No, I do like it summoning actual monsters rather than just attracting local ones. But they should be, say, from SM II or III.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Probably summon monster II.

We're going to need to specify that these can "attach" somehow through a gem purse.  Or make the symbiont ability more of an Su thing.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> We're going to need to specify that these can "attach" somehow through a gem purse.  Or make the symbiont ability more of an Su thing.




Indeed.  I've read the entry several times, and I'm struggling to grasp how they get into a position to feed.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Perhaps greater peltasts feed on "life force" or something without a need for direct blood drain?


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah, I think this is the way to go.  Make it an Su ability, and also make it so that it takes a Will save for a host to "detach" from the symbiotic greater peltast.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

OK, to get Homebrews going, let's figure out the basics.

Take a peltast, add 1 HD, boost Int to 15 or 16, raise other mental stats by similar amount?

Physical ability scores appear to need no change.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I italicized some carryover text that will need to be changed as we develop them.



> Once a round, a greater peltast can silently use one of its abilities: call monsters (like a monster summoning VI spell, but used to call hostile creatures against its carrier until a good meal opportunity develops); a powerful suggestion (-1 on subject saving throws) to influence called creatures and other beings around them into creating the maximum possible bloodshed without depriving the greater peltast of all potential host-creatures; and Slow on any being touching or carrying the greater peltast.




So, we decided on summon monster II.  I'm not sure we should keep it "at will", though.   Maybe 3/day?   Suggestion won't work for the intended "bloodshed", since harmful actions cancel the effect.  Maybe confusion instead?    Slow (host only) at will?


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

Your suggestions make sense to me.

Attach and Anesthetize are probably no longer necessary in the abilities section.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

True.  How shall we rewrite the feeding?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

From looking at all this, I think maybe it needs to feed on 2-3 hp per day, but it can't attach.  That means it can only effectively bite a sleeping, unconscious, or dead individual.  That's why it does the summoning bit, to get dead critters.  (I'd think it also needs to distract the host while it feeds if it is going to remain incognito.)  Maybe Anesthetize makes sense still in this case.  So maybe the only difference is that it doesn't have to attach to its host and can feed on other critters.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

I just re-read it, and I'm in complete agreement.  It definitely physically feeds on blood, but probably just laps it up from an open wound, rather than latching on.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

So: leave Anesthetize.  Maybe it can get 1hp from a dead creature of at least 1 HD?  And needs to feed on 3 hp per day?  Should it have a Su ability to distract its host while it feeds on dead creatures?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

> Greater peltasts can be seen feeding: the blood they ingest is visible inside their bodies. They also grow visibly upon draining more than 3 hit points of nutrients (a greater peltast can typically drain up to 12 hit points, half of which are added to its hit point total for a day).




It sounds like they can also gain temporary hit points from "overeating".


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

That logic sounds sound to me. Max of 10 temporary hp above their total?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Sure, agreed!  Something like this?

Blood Feeding (Ex): A greater peltast must feed on blood each day; it may do so by biting a living creature, in which case it must do 3 hp of damage per day to sustain itself.  A greater peltast may also gain sustenance from the blood of dead creatures, and it can lap up the equivalent of 1 hp from each creature of at least 1HD.  If a greater peltast is able to feed on more than the equivalent of 3hp per day, it gains the remainder as temporary hp (max 10), which last for 24 hours.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Looking good.  Should we implicitly state what occurs if it fails to feed on at least 3 hp per day?   Maybe it becomes fatigued?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Fatigued is good (IIRC, that stacks with itself to become exhausted, etc).  Maybe after 2 consecutive days of insufficient feeding, it starts taking Con damage?  Should we add something like this to a normal peltast?  I think we just left the feeding as flavor text.

Blood Feeding (Ex): A greater peltast must feed on blood each day; it may do so by biting a living creature, in which case it must do 3 hp of damage per day to sustain itself. A greater peltast may also gain sustenance from the blood of dead creatures, and it can lap up the equivalent of 1 hp from each creature of at least 1HD. If a greater peltast is able to feed on more than the equivalent of 3hp per day, it gains the remainder as temporary hp (max 10), which last for 24 hours.

If a greater peltast does not feed sufficiently for a day, it becomes fatigued.  Starting on the 3rd consecutive day that it does not feed sufficiently, a greater peltast takes 1 point of Con damage per day, which cannot heal naturally until the greater peltast has fed sufficiently at least one day.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Looking good.   Updated.

We'll need to increase its damage, for as it stands, it can't deal more than 1 point of damage on a given bite.

I agree with adding the "must feed" bits to the regular peltast, too.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

I don't mind the idea of needing to bite more than once.  It make it less likely to just feed on the host, I think.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Fair enough.

Damage reduction x/slashing or piercing

Spell resistance x (33% translates to somewhere between CR +7 to CR +8)

Skills: 25 ranks  (peltasts have Climb, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently) 

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

DR 2.  SR = CR +7.

Let's max those skills plus perhaps Escape Artist (to get away from enraged hosts?).

I'm inclined to go with no advancement.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Regular peltasts have damage reduction 3/slashing or piercing, so I'd like to at least keep it that good.  Maybe bump to 4 or 5?

Skills sound good.

Challenge Rating: 2 (singly) or host +1 (when worn)?  
They are better than regular peltasts, but give the host only slightly better SR.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

DR 5 works for me. The CR sounds good.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Ego = +3 Int, +2 Wis, +3 Cha, +5 for special attacks, +4 for special qualities = 17?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2009)

Oops, forgot to look up the regular DR.

That all sounds right to me.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Should the boost to host CR be "when carried" rather than "when worn" since these are like gemstones?  Otherwise, looks about finished.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Good suggestion.  Fixed.

Fey time!

*Thunder Children*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night and/or storms
DIET: Fear
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: F
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 18 (A)
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (4’ high)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Thunder children, also known as storm children, night rattlers, and lightning-kin, are mischievous, malicious creatures that come out to “play” during violent thunderstorms, especially at night.  This play is quite harmful to other creatures.

These “children” are shiny black, gaunt humanoids, with slender limbs and vestigial wings.  Their faces are human, though they have tiny horns on their temples and pointed ears.  Thunder children have pupil-less eyes that flash like lightning.

Thunder children have their own language, which consists of crackles, howls, and booms. Many also speak Common, and are experts at mimicking normal sounds such as squeaking doors, heavy footfalls, and the like.

Combat:  Thunder children fight in several ways.  The most simple and direct is the bite from their unusually strong, fanged mouths.  In addition to taking 2-16 hit points of damage, the victim must make a save vs. spell.  Failing the roll inflicts an additional 10 points of electrical damage.

Each thunder child can also cast the following wizard spells at seventh-level proficiency:  chain lightning (which comes from the eyes), gust of wind, fog cloud, darkness 15’ radius.  Each spell may be cast seven times per day, though only one spell may be in effect at any given time.

Thunder children can also sense fear in a 120’ radius, and change into gaseous form, resembling a small black storm cloud.  

The most ingenious manner in which a thunder child attacks is by subtle, psychological ways. During violent storms, thunder children delight in loosening doors and windows, banging shutters, flinging small outdoor objects about, and doing other things which heighten their victims’ unease over the storm.  The victims’ fear is what feeds the thunder children.

Any round in which a thunder child attempts to frighten its victim, the victim must save vs. paralyzation.  Failure indicates that the victim is overcome with fright, and loses one point of Wisdom, drained by the thunder child.  When the victim’s Wisdom reaches 0, he/she dies of fright, unless he/she makes a successful save vs. death magic.  Victims who survive can regain their Wisdom points at a rate of one every 12 hours.

Thunder children can also move silently and hide in shadows, each with 70% ability.  They are also immune to fear.  Thunder children have infravision 120’, and can even see through magical darkness.

Habitat/Society:  Thunder children dwell in little caves hollowed out from storm clouds.  These clouds have been magically reinforced in much the same way that a cloud giant’s clouds can support a castle.  The lairs have no treasure, since thunder children have no interest in such things.

There are no sexes among thunder children.  They reproduce by flying into storm clouds and getting hit by lightning.  If the creature makes its save vs. magic, a half-strength thunder child is born just as the thunderclap from the lightingin bolt is heard.  If the creature fails its save, it dies.  The “new” thunder child matures in six months.  Any thunder child lair encountered has a 10% chance of having 1d4+1 young.

Thunder children have no leaders.  They act together because it is advantageous to do so, though sometimes a solitary “child” will delight in having some private sport with a victim.

Places that are especially gloomy, such as old graveyards, moldy mansions, and dark castles on a sea Cliffside, are the favorite haunts of thunder children.  Any place that inspires fear in humans, demi-humans or humanoids is an ideal place for a thunder child.

Thunder children who find their way to Ravenloft adore it.  IN that shadowy realm, a thunder child feels like it has arrived at its vision of Paradise.

Ecology:  Due to their capricious nature, thunder children have many enemies.  Among those enemies are djinn, air elementals, cloud giants, storm giants, and pegasi.  Storm giants and cloud giants call them “thunder bats” and consider them as much of a nuisance as humans consider rats in their house.

It is rumored that the blood of a thunder child is a useful ingredient in some recipes for potions of gaseous form and potions of weather control (as per the 7th-level priest spell, although this potion is believed to still be only a theoretical possibility).

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Fiend Folio Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

4 ft tall seems like the border of Small and Medium.  Since they're gaunt, how about Small 7HD fey?

Since the wings are "vestigial," make the flight supernatural?

SLAs are pretty straightforward except for the "no two at one time" business.  What if we reduce the amount they can use them to 3/day or 5/day but no other restrictions?  Then it seems like we want gust of wind, chain lightning, fog cloud, darkness, CL 7.

The bite seems a bit strong for a Small critter (really, 2d8?).  What about 1d8 plus a decent Str plus electricity (with no save).  Make it straight 10 points of electricity or maybe 1d10 to 2d8?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

I agree to 3/day for the SLAs. 1d8 damage plus 1d8 electricity, replace the extra damage on a failed save with a stunning effect, something like that?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Stunned for 1 round?  I kind of like that!  I could even be persuaded to go to 1d4 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

1 round I think is best.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

So something like bite +x (1d8+shock) and Shock (Ex): In addition to direct hp damage, the bite of a thunderchild does 1d8 electricity damage.  In addition, the victim must make a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.  The save DC is Constitution-based.  ?

We should think about ability scores, I guess.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> We should think about ability scores, I guess.




Indeed!

Dex looks fantastic, what with that -1 AC.  Int is listed as average (8-10), but their tactics are "ingenious" and seem to indicate a higher Int.  Or maybe it is just cunning, which is usually attributed to Wisdom.  Cha should be decent to high.  Con is probably average.   You guys decided on a decent Str score upthread.

Str 15, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Those stats look alright, although I'd boost Con a bit. Poor melee fey, with their d6 Hit Dice and poor BAB...


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Added.

I'm not sure I like the +5 natural armor.   Raise Dex and/or unearthly grace?



> Many also speak Common, and are experts at mimicking normal sounds such as squeaking doors, heavy footfalls, and the like.




Sound imitation ability like the blue dragon?



> chain lightning (which comes from the eyes)




Make this a Su ability, like a breath weapon, that recharges every few rounds, rather than just a plain ol' SLA?



> Thunder children can also sense fear in a 120’ radius, and change into gaseous form, resembling a small black storm cloud.




"Sense fear" sounds like fun.  Maybe they can notice anyone with the frightened, panicked, or shaken condition within a 120-foot radius?

Should the gaseous form be a Su ability?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Dex 22, Cha 18, plus unearthly grace sounds right.

Yes to sound imitation.
In some ways I like chain lightning better (longer range), but a line of electricity (4d6, 60 ft?) would be ok.
I like the idea for sense fear.  
Yeah, let's make it Su like vampires.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

The electrical ability could still function like chain lightning in effect (rather than a simple line of electricty).  I was just advocating it as Su to allow for it to recharge after 1d4+1 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

The chain lightning breath weapon sounds like it could be fun. Classic Monsters Revisted, the Paizo book, has a Sense Fear feat, which I think we could tweak. The relevant text (stolen from my Pathfinder thread...)


Feats The Scent of Fear feat allows the koblak to track by scent and pinpoint creatures by scent within 30 feet. In addition, it gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls against shaken or frightened opponents and can detect them at twice normal Scent range. It gains a +2 bonus on all Will saves when within 120 feet of a shaken or frightened opponent, and cannot be caught flat-footed by any shaken or frightened opponent. This feat first appeared in Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Ahh, I like both those ideas!  Nice.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Chain Lightning (Su):  Once very 1d4+1 rounds, a thunder child can release a blast of chain lightning from its eyes.  The bolt deals xd6 points of electricity damage to a primary target within 60 feet. After it strikes, lightning can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to the thunder child's Hit Dice (maximum 20). Each target can attempt a DC X Reflex saving throw for half damage. The thunder child chooses secondary targets as it likes, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. The thunder child can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.  The secondary bolts each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (rounded down).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Smell Fear (Su):  A thunder child can track by scent and pinpoint creatures by scent within 30 feet. In addition, it gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls against shaken, frightened, or panicked opponents and can detect them at four times the normal scent range. It gains a +2 bonus on all Will saves when within 120 feet of a shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent, and cannot be caught flat-footed by any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Looks pretty good.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Agreed.  But compared to the chain lightning SLA (at CL 7, 7d6 damage and 680 ft range), it's a touch weak.  I'd suggest either increasing the range (120 ft?), putting primary target damage higher (8d6?) or both.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

That's why I left the damage "xd6".  

Keep in mind they can use that once every 1d4 rounds, so we don't want it to be too devastating.

I could see 8d6 and possibly 120 feet, though.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

I guess my point was that 7/day was almost unlimited per a single combat anyway, so it's not gaining much by getting a 1d4+1 recharge time.  Anyway, if demiurge agrees to 8d6 and 120 ft, I think we're ok.  They will probably be pretty decent for 7HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

8d6 is fine by me. Ditto the range.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Updated (including the gaseous form, sound imitation, and unearthly grace mentioned farther upthread).

Time for the tough ability...



> The most ingenious manner in which a thunder child attacks is by subtle, psychological ways. During violent storms, thunder children delight in loosening doors and windows, banging shutters, flinging small outdoor objects about, and doing other things which heighten their victims’ unease over the storm.  The victims’ fear is what feeds the thunder children.
> 
> Any round in which a thunder child attempts to frighten its victim, the victim must save vs. paralyzation.  Failure indicates that the victim is overcome with fright, and loses one point of Wisdom, drained by the thunder child.  When the victim’s Wisdom reaches 0, he/she dies of fright, unless he/she makes a successful save vs. death magic.  Victims who survive can regain their Wisdom points at a rate of one every 12 hours.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Model it like a howler's Wisdom damage, but have any creature that fails a save for Wisdom damage have to make another save or be shaken for 1 hour.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

Good idea.  The question for me is what is "attempts to frighten"?  A howler has to howl for an hour, so every round seems a bit much, too.  Maybe for each minute that the thunderchild does creepy things, everyone in a 30 ft region has to save?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

That seems reasonable to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

OK, if the saves are happening every minute, perhaps the shaken condition should only last a minute. I was thinking the hour thing with regards to that duration.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK, if the saves are happening every minute, perhaps the shaken condition should only last a minute. I was thinking the hour thing with regards to that duration.



That also seems fair.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Attempt #1:

Feed on Fear (Su): A thunder child can feed on other creatures fear. Anyone within x feet that observes a thunder child's frightening actions (such as banging doors, tossing objects, and so forth) must succeed on a DC X Will save or take 1 point of Wisdom damage.  Additionally, any creature that fails its save must succeed on a second DC X Will save or be shaken for 1 minute.  A victim reduced to Wisdom 0 dies of fright.  On each such successful attack, the thunder child gains 5 temporary hit points.  The save DCs are Charisma-based. The save must be repeated for each minute of exposure. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Does each successful attack refer to Wisdom damage, status effect, or both? We should specify.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

20 ft or 30 ft range?  Should we specify that the victim must observe for 1 minute first?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

I think 20 or 30 feet is probably too short.  I picture the victim as indoors, peering out at the mayhem.  I'd say at least 60 feet.

"successful attack" = loss of Wisdom?   Should it be drain rather than damage?  The original text implied draining.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

60 feet. I too imagine the victims hearing weird noises, catching glimpses in the night of sinister figures. Drain works, and I agree that the thunder children should only get hp by draining Wis, not causing fear.

We've already got the Dover Demons in the gahonga, but the "weird America" story these thunder children remind me most of are the Hopkinsville goblins.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

60 ft works, as does drain.  Drain should be necessary for temporary hp.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

Cool similarities to the Hopkinsville Goblins.  



> Thunder children can also move silently and hide in shadows, each with 70% ability.  They are also immune to fear.  Thunder children have infravision 120’, and can even see through magical darkness.




Darkvision 120 feet and see in darkness, like devils?  +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Agreed to all of the above. Maybe only a +4 to Hide and Move Silently--they're already Dex-heavy and will get full ranks.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think 20 or 30 feet is probably too short. I picture the victim as indoors, peering out at the mayhem. I'd say at least 60 feet.
> 
> "successful attack" = loss of Wisdom? Should it be drain rather than damage? The original text implied draining.




Actually, the text said that victims eventually regain lost Wisdom, which implies damage, not drain.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Actually, the text said that victims eventually regain lost Wisdom, which implies damage, not drain.



True.  And probably no need for temporary hp, either, just some kind of nourishment.  That can be just part of the flavor if we want. 

The other suggestions sound right.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Good suggestions, all.

Updated.

Damage reduction x/cold iron

Skills: 60
Max ranks in Bluff, Concentration Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Tumble?

Feats: 3


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

DR 5 probably.  Skills look good.  Weapon Finesse, Ability Focus (Feed on Fear), Persuasive.
The group can be a storm.

Just thinking: what if we made the save DC for Feed on Fear equal to the Thunder Child's Intimidate check?  That makes thematic sense and makes the save even tougher.  Then Persuasive is even better, and we can swap Ability Focus over to chain lightning maybe.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Great idea!  In that case, I'd advocate Skill Focus (Intimidate) over Persuasive.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Good suggestions!


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Updated.



> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate/any



Environment: Any temperate or warm land?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x
Type F = 18,000 silver, 1,000-6,000 gold, 1,000-4,000 platinum, 2-20 gems, 1-8 objects, any 5 magic items except weapons

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: x

A thunder child stands 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, CR 7 I think, is that double standard treasure?, yes, 8-14 HD (Small), 30 lb.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Agreed to freyar's suggestions. CR 7 seems right to me.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think so.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Yup.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

*Gloomwing, Flying Serpent *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or flock 
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: Any (usually A)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4 
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 4 Fl 21 (MC B)
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Venom
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Darkness
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: L (9' wingspan) 
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 975

The name .gloomwing. describes two entirely different monsters with similar habits but radically different appearances and natures.  One type of gloomwing is a fey creature which makes its home on the Prime Material Plane. These monsters resemble huge serpents with large, bat-like wings. They have smooth, scaly bodies and lightly-furred wings. Their overall color is a lusterless black, with a dusty cinnamon brown on the nose, tail, and  wingtips. Some specimens are brown all over. All of these winged serpents have glittering amber eyes which glow a baneful red when the creature is enraged or feeding.

Combat: Gloomwings can generate darkness, 15 radius (as the 2nd-level wizard spell) at will as a 4th-level spell caster. They have excellent sight and superior infravision, 180-foot range. Their other senses are extremely keen and allow them to locate and attack opponents even in magical darkness. Gloomwings are wise enough to avoid powerful creatures and large parties of adventurers. However, they are quick to attack when they think they have the advantage. They prefer to swoop to attack from behind, hiding in their own darkness. Gloomwings also use darkness to travel or hunt without detection on moonless nights, and to foil missile fire.

A gloomwing’s venomous bite is its most feared weapon. The bite causes a -1 penalty on each save vs. poison. If the save is not successful, one of the following effects occurs (roll d%):

01-40: Victim flees in fear (as 4th-level wizard spell) for four rounds.
41-75: Victim of less than 8 + 1 Hit Dice (or 8 levels) falls into a catatonic slumber and cannot be awakened for 2d4 turns.  Creatures of 8 +2 Hit Dice (or 9 levels) or more are unaffected. Such victims are treated as if they have made their saving throws (see below).
76-85: Victim is stunned for 1d6 rounds. While stunned, victim cannot use Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class, attack, cast spells, communicate, or perform any actions except normal movement or dropping items held in the hands.
87-95: Victim is confused (as the 4th-level wizard spell) for six rounds.
96-97: Victim is feebleminded (as the 5th-level wizard spell).  Victims who are not spell casters are treated as if they have made their saving throws.
98-00: Victim suffers double damage (4-10) from the bite and suffers wracking pains and convulsions which render him helpless for one round.

An opponent can suffer from only one of these effects during a single encounter with one or more gloomwings. Unaffected opponents must successfully save vs. poison each time they are bitten, but once a save fails and the victim suffers from a listed affect, all subsequent bites during the encounter inflict only half damage. Gloomwings engage in long melees with opponents who have survived the venom's affects often retreat, only to return1d3 hours later to launch a “new” assault. Gloomwings are immune to gloomwing venom.

Habitat/Society: Gloomwings are thought to serve dark powers (evil priests, dragons, etc.) as messengers, steeds, and spies. A gloomwing can carry 175 pounds and still fly at full speed. They can maintain a flight speed of 14 (MC C) with loads between 175 and 255 pounds, and are grounded if forced to carry loads greater than 255 pounds. Gloomwings prefer to make their lairs in caves set high into the faces of inaccessible cliffs or in ancient ruins. They horde treasure to use as bribes or to purchase services from lesser creatures. These hordes are always well hidden and frequently trapped to prevent theft. Gloomwings can speak the Common tongue and Orc, though with a rasping, hissing voice. They speak the tongue of evil dragons quite well.

Ecology: A gloomwing eats any creature it can overcome, and eats carrion if necessary. They always seek alliances with any evil creatures living nearby. They seek to become the masters if their neighbors are weaker, or well-paid servants if the neighbors are stronger. In either case, gloomwings are not known for fidelity or loyalty

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (1991).  

*GLOOMWING*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 4"/19" (MC; B)
HIT DICE: 3+3
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: All possible
(in lair only)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Venom (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Darkness (see below)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (9. wingspan)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Gloomwings are feared, fey creatures who are thought to serve dark powers as messengers, steeds, and spies. They hunt by night and day, and speak common, orcish, and their alignment tongue in hissing, rasping voices. They possess 180’ –range infravision as well as normal sight, and can see perfectly in near darkness, including the darkness 15’ radius which they can create about themselves at will. (Other forms of magical darkness, not created by themselves, will render them as blind as other creatures.) 
Gloomwings use this darkness power as a smokescreen to evade enemies, to dodge and foil missile fire, and to avoid detection when hunting on moonlit nights.

The chilling bite of a gloomwing is its most feared weapon. In addition to doing 2-5 points of damage, the creature’s fangs inject venom into the victim’s bloodstream. The effect of the venom varies for each victim as follows:

01-40: Victim flees in fear (see 4th-level magic-user spell).
41-75: Victim of less than 8+1 hit dice (or 8 levels) affected by sleep, immediately sinking into a catatonic slumber from which he cannot be awakened for 2-8 turns. A victim of 8th level (8+1 HD) or greater is treated as if he made his saving throw (see below).
76-86: Victim is stunned, reeling, unable to think, speak, cast spells, or act—except to drop any items held in the hands—for 1-6 rounds.
87-95: Victim is confused (as the 4th-level magic-user spell).
96-97: Victim is feebleminded (as the 5th-level magic-user spell).
98-00: Victim suffers double damage (4-10 points) from the bite and is rendered helpless for the round in which he was bitten due to wracking pains (with convulsions), but is otherwise unaffected.

Any victim can only be affected by one of these results during a single encounter with one or more gloomwings; after a bite hits and its poison) takes effect, all subsequent bites suffered by the victim in the same encounter will have no effect other than the normal 2-5 points of damage. The victim of a bite is allowed a saving throw vs. poison (made at -1) to avoid the effect of the venom, but this saving throw only applies to the particular bite attack for which it is made. A gloomwing is immune to its own venom, and to that of other gloomwings.

Gloomwings hoard treasure for use in bribing or purchasing the services of lesser creatures. This treasure they conceal in the caves, clifftop eyries, and ruins where they lair, typically cunningly concealed and trapped to prevent theft. Gloomwings are carnivores and will eat any creature that they can overcome--and even carrion, in a pinch.

Originally appeared in Dragon #90 (1984).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

OK, darkness, see in darkness, chaos poison...


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

This...



> (Other forms of magical darkness, not created by themselves, will render them as blind as other creatures.)




...reminds me of the blacklight spell:



			
				Blacklight said:
			
		

> You create an area of total darkness. The darkness is impenetrable to normal vision and darkvision, but you can see normally within the blacklit area. Creatures outside the spell's area, even you, cannot see through it.
> 
> You can cast the spell on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless you cast it on a mobile object. You can cast the spell on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. Unattended objects and points in space do not get saving throws or benefit from spell resistance.
> 
> Blacklight counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, such as daylight.




I'm fine with simplifying to the devil's see in darkness ability, though.

Looking toward ability scores, it seems they have high Con, possibly high Str (based on the carrying capacity while flying, unless we want to go with a special ability instead).  Dex sounds decent as well.   Int is given as 13-14, Wis seems at least as good, and Cha is probably at least average.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Let's simplify.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Agreed.

With a 9 ft wingspan, would these be more like Medium than Large?  What do you think?  Large size giant owls and eagles have 20 ft wingspans.  This makes a bit of difference to carrying capacity and Str.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Hmmm...interesting point.

I think I'm still leaning toward Large, though, because...



> These monsters resemble huge serpents with large, bat-like wings.






> Gloomwings are thought to serve dark powers (evil priests, dragons, etc.) as messengers, steeds, and spies.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Let's bump them to 15 ft wingspans at least, then.

At Large, a light load of upto 266 lb (the closest to 255 lb) is Str 20.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds reasonable.

Str 20, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha, 12?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Those ability scores sound good.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggestions for a name for the venom?  Like Demiurge, my first instinct was chaos poison...then I noticed they were neutral evil.   Not that being neutral precludes any use of "chaos".  Maybe "gloom venom"?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, all of the effects are tied to the mind. So... madness venom? Unseelie essence? Mind poison?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Mindgloom?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Mindgloom is probably my favorite, but any of those work.

DR 2?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

DR 5 at least. These guys are hefty.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

They're only 3HD, though, which doesn't usually suggest so much DR.  OTOH, they are kind of hefty, so I wouldn't mind raising the HD a bit.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

I was a bit concerned at first with 3 HD for a Large creature, although a Large viper does indeed have 3 HD.  And some other Large magical mounts have similar HD (hippogriff=3 HD, pegasus=4 HD).

So let's stick with 3 HD, but go ahead and give them the DR 5/cold iron.  Even a CR 1 Tiny grig has DR 5/cold iron.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Fair enough in light of the grig, then.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Let's work on the mindgloom venom...



> A gloomwing’s venomous bite is its most feared weapon. The bite causes a -1 penalty on each save vs. poison. If the save is not successful, one of the following effects occurs (roll d%):
> 
> 01-40: Victim flees in fear (as 4th-level wizard spell) for four rounds.
> 41-75: Victim of less than 8 + 1 Hit Dice (or 8 levels) falls into a catatonic slumber and cannot be awakened for 2d4 turns.  Creatures of 8 +2 Hit Dice (or 9 levels) or more are unaffected. Such victims are treated as if they have made their saving throws (see below).
> ...






> The chilling bite of a gloomwing is its most feared weapon. In addition to doing 2-5 points of damage, the creature’s fangs inject venom into the victim’s bloodstream. The effect of the venom varies for each victim as follows:
> 
> 01-40: Victim flees in fear (see 4th-level magic-user spell).
> 41-75: Victim of less than 8+1 hit dice (or 8 levels) affected by sleep, immediately sinking into a catatonic slumber from which he cannot be awakened for 2-8 turns. A victim of 8th level (8+1 HD) or greater is treated as if he made his saving throw (see below).
> ...




panicked, sleep, stunned, confused, feebleminded, and the effects of a symbol of pain (wracking pains that impose a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks), respectively?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Sounds right to me.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Same here.  Regardless of a save result, creatures bitten by a gloomwing are immune to mindgloom for 24 hours as standard?  (Or just from that particular gloomwing?)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

I think we should have that for successful saves only.

Let's make it a mind-influencing, poison effect.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

All sounds good.  Stick with original durations?

Ex or Su?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Su.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Summarizing...

Mindgloom Venom (Su):  A creature bitten by a gloomwing must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or suffer a random effect from the table below.  Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same gloomwing's mindgloom venom for 24 hours. Effects from multiple gloomwing bites do not stack.  The save DC is Constitution-based. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes all effects from an affected creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

01-40: Victim is panicked for x rounds.  This is a mind-affecting, fear effect.
41-75: Victim falls asleep (as the sleep spell) for 2d4x10 minutes. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.
76-86: Victim is stunned for 1d6 rounds.  This is a mind-affecting effect.
87-95: Victim is confused (as the confusion spell) for x rounds. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.
96-97: Victim is feebleminded (as the spell).  This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.
98-00: Victim suffers double damage from the bite and is wracked with pain (imposing a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks) for 1 round.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

I think that looks right.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

> Gloomwings can generate darkness, 15 radius (as the 2nd-level wizard spell) at will as a 4th-level spell caster.




Deeper darkness as a SLA or a unique Su ability?



> They have excellent sight and superior infravision, 180-foot range. Their other senses are extremely keen and allow them to locate and attack opponents even in magical darkness.




Keen senses like a true dragon?

We gave them see in darkness, but I'm almost wondering if blindsight is more appropriate based on that passage.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

Let's switch to blindsight, give them deeper darkness and keen senses. x = 5 for the duration of the panicked and confused statuses?


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2009)

Agreed to all that.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Updated.

60 feet for blindsight?

Skills: 42
Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, 3 more?

Feats: 2

Environment: Any?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Feats: Flyby Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)?

You've got a misplaced comma around Charisma in its abilites line.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Sounds good, and I fixed the errant comma.



> Gloomwings are thought to serve dark powers (evil priests, dragons, etc.) as messengers, steeds, and spies.






> They seek to become the masters if their neighbors are weaker, or well-paid servants if the neighbors are stronger.






> They horde treasure to use as bribes or to purchase services from lesser creatures. These hordes are always well hidden and frequently trapped to prevent theft.




Bluff, Craft (trapmaking), Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Those skills appeal.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Agreed to all that.

Hmm, they're not too physically tough, but they have that nasty poison and deeper darkness probably works pretty well vs low level parties (esp in combination with its senses).  CR 4?  Or even 5?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Let's say CR 4.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: 6-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)?

Level Adjustment: +6?

A gloomwing is x feet long with a 15-foot wingspan and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

There's an extra "the" in the language sentence.

That all looks good.  I'm thinking 9 ft long and maybe 150 lb?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Add (cohort) to the level adjustment and I'll be happy with it.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

So be it!


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

*Noran*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 9+5
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (x2)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Projectiles
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: L (11’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 2,000

The noran, although a rather ridiculous-looking creature, is one of the more fearsome monsters one can find underground.  It looks like a sickly, petrified treant, with knots and holes covering its entire surface and a face hidden in the trunk.  It has two long, whiplike prehensile branches with which it can pick up small items.  Finally, it has a cavity on its top that extends down into its main body, which narrows until it ends in a knothole.

Normal dungeon creatures leave the noran’s area alone, moving away only if one comes into the area.  By keeping careful watch on it and keeping themselves hidden, the creatures can slowly return after it passes on to greener pastures.

Noran speak a rudimentary form of Common and can also communicate haltingly with other forms of tree, including treants.

Combat: Obviously, the noran’s prehensile arms pose a threat, for they can strike at a range of up to 10 feet with frightening speed.  However, the noran’s arms should be the least of any opponent’s worries, for the creature carries a far more devastating weapon concealed in its body.

The knothole just below the noran’s mouth can open and close and fire fist-sized rocks at frighteningly high speeds.  It feeds these rocks to itself by picking them up with its prehensile arms and dropping them into the cavity on top.  Rocks fire this way inflict 2d8 points of damage.  It can fire one rock per round, provided it forgoes other attacks.  The range for an accurate spit rock is 60 feet.  However, it can store up to 10 rocks in its cavity before combat.  If it has done so, it can both fight with its arms and spit rocks at opponents.  If it so desires, it can fight two opponents within reach and fire a rock at a third.

Because it is made of a petrified material, the noran suffers normal damage from fire-based attacks, but it doesn’t continue to burn like other, ordinary wooden monsters would.  However, it suffers double normal damage from bludgeoning weapons.

Habitat/Society: The noran is a solitary, nomadic creature. Since most prey flees the area when a noran arrives, it must constantly be on the search for more food. It therefore stays in an area only as long as other creatures stay, and moves on when they do.

Despite the fact that they are solitary, norans will not fight others of their kind when they meet.  Instead, they usually take the opportunity to reproduce.  How they do this is unknown, but both norans leave the encounter bearing an acorn.  For one year after this takes place, the noran cannot fire rocks, but after that time the noran ejects and infant, which must then fend for itself.  It has all the statistics of an adult noran from the point it is born.

Ecology: It is surmised that norans are distant relatives of the treant, although how they came to occupy the underground is an explanation best left to a trained sage.

As noted, the noran is carnivorous.  It eats any fleshy creature it can kill.  It prefers its food bruised and bloody, making it more tender and thus more easily digestible when the noran shuffles over it.  The proteins of living flesh are the only ones concentrated enough to nourish a noran.  The ordinary diet (for a plant) of sunlight, soil nutrients, and water is simply lacking in the ingredients necessary for a noran to survive.

Any treasure or undigestibles left on a victim’s body when consumed by the noran are spit out and left to die on the dungeon floor.  Those retracing a noran’s steps can often find useful items along the way, though they might have to fight other dungeon scavengers for said treasures.  Some creatures actually prosper by following in a noran’s footsteps.  However, they all too often find that this course leads to doom if the noran decides to retrace its own steps.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Ooh. Can make ranged and melee attacks simultaneously. Exciting. DR/bludgeoning seems appropriate. Let's boost Int to 13 to give them access to Combat Expertise and the dependent manuevers so we can use those "whip arms".


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Sounds good.  Dex should be decent, since it utilizes ranged attacks (and has decent AC probably not all attributed to natural armor).   Con looks good, too.

Downsizing a treant to Large yields: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12

How about Str 21, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 12?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Let's drop Con to 23 and bump Dex to 16.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Should spit rocks be also in the attack lines?  I kind of think it should be a normal ranged attack, where norans get a special ability to mix ranged and melee attacks in full attack actions.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Probably.

We might be able to mine this ability for ideas...

Spit Stones (Ex): A gohlbrorn swallows large rocks as it burrows through the earth, and stores them in its gullet. A gohlbrorn can spew these rocks with tremendous force at opponents up to 50 feet as a standard action. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. A gohlbrorn’s gullet may hold up to 8 stones, which are launched one at a time. A gohlbrorn that runs out of stones during combat continues the battle fighting with teeth and claws. A gohlbrorn may burrow as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not stop to do this during combat.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

That sounds about right, although these guys can reload as a move action and can make a ranged attack in addition to melee attacks in a full attack action.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

I also read the original text as a range of 60 ft with maybe 2 or 3 range increments (given the "accurate" spit rock comment).  But yes, this looks about right.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

So...

Spit Stones (Ex): A noran may fire fist-sized rocks from the knothole below its mouth.  A noran can spew these rocks with great velocity at opponents up to 180 feet as a standard action. This is a ranged attack with a range increment of 60 feet. A noran's cavity may hold up to 10 stones, which are dropped into the cavity on the noran's top with its prehensile arms.  A noran that runs out of stones during combat may reload a single stone as a move action.  A noran can make a spit stones attack in addition to melee attacks as part of a full attack action.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

Sounds about right.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

I like it!


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 10/bludgeoning?

Skills: 36

Feats: 4


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

Good DR.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Skills: Shouldn't it, with its +1 Int modifier, have 27 skill points to spend? Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot are all pretty good candidates, and we might consider giving it a racial bonus to Hide checks in its environment, like a treant.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

I'm still getting 36...(2 + Int) x (HD + 3) = 3 x 12 = 36.

Agreed with the suggested skills and feats.  

Racial bonus like so?

Skills: *Norans have a +16 racial bonus on Hide checks made in subterranean areas.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 9, 2009)

A Knowledge skill might also be useful: maybe nature and/or dungeoneering?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Good idea.  Dungeoneering sounds like a good fit.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

OK, I must be crazy then. I'm not sure where my math was coming from.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or pair?

Challenge Rating: 7?  It has more HD than a treant, but the lack of animate trees and trample seem enough to drop it a CR.

Treasure: Standard (in its wake)?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: 10–16 HD (Large); 17-23 HD (Huge); 24–27 HD (Gargantuan)?

Level Adjustment: +4?

A noran is about 11 feet tall, with a “trunk” about x feet in diameter. It weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Your suggestions seem about right.  

2 ft diameter, 1000 lb?  I scaled down a treant and knocked off a third for having a big hollow part.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, from their flavor-text, they strike me as more neutral evil than neutral. What with the killing anything that crosses paths with them.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Good point.  Usually neutral evil it is!


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Fair enough.  I'd thought that at first, then just saw N when I checked the original.  I guess people have had problems with alignment all along, huh?


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

I might have miss something, plants skills are:
Plant Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Thank "you all" for your work.  I all ways look forward to new conversions.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

You're right about the plant skills, and that's what it's got!  

I'm glad there are people who like looking at these, so you're welcome!


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Are we done here?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

I'd say so.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

I think so too.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

*Tree, Singing*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate or tropical forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Blood
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 0
HIT DICE: 12+4
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1d100
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Singing
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Singing
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: L (10-20’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10,000

The singing tree is an odd plant that lures creatures to rest nearby, then drains their blood to feed itself.

The singing tree appears to be a normal deciduous tree with uniquely shaped leaves.  Each leaf sings with a lovely voice, the hundreds of them blending into a beautiful chorus.  If hungry, the tree joins the chorus, adding its own bass line.

Combat: When the tree uses its bass line, all mammalian creatures within 100 yards must roll saving throws vs. spell; those who do not succeed feel compelled to stop for a bit and rest in the shade of the tree.  When a potential victim rests beneath the tree, several leaves fly off the tree to attack.

At any time, the tree can send a number of leaves equal to its hit points.  However, unless ravenously hungry, the tree sets typically only 1d6 leaves on a single victim to avoid notice.  Each leaf flutters down, appearing to fall naturally, but the small twig that connects the leaf to the tree is also a feeding tube, which the leaf inserts into exposed skin.  For victims charmed by the tree’s music, the pain of insertion is unnoticed.  After draining 1 hit point of blood, the leaf flutters away, then seems to rise on a breeze, back into the tree’s branches.  There, it reattaches itself to its branch and feeds the blood to the tree. To remain healthy, the tree must each day consume a number of hit points of blood equal to its normal total.

Each leaf has 1 hp.  Killing them individually is quite inefficient, for the tree has a number of leaves equal to 10 times its hit points.  If the tree is attacked with an area-effect spell such as a fireball, all leaves not attached to the tree are killed, if they are within the spell’s area of effect.  In addition, a number of leaves on the tree equal to the total damage inflicted are also killed.  The tree rolls saving throws as indicated by its Hit Dice, with normal effects for success.

Attacking the tree causes it to send all its leaves to attack.  Besides their blood drain, the fluttering leaves can cause obscurement, lessening oponents’ attack rolls by -2.  If the tree is killed, individual leaves die in 1d10 rounds.

Habitat/Society: In the wild, singing trees grow in secluded places and use their music to lure unintelligent animals.  The tree’s leaves vibrate in the wind; combined with their natural magic, this makes a lovely sound.  Each leaf has its own “voice,” and the music is indescribably beautiful.  When the tree adds its lower tones, the song becomes very attractive and calming.

Each singing tree has its own territory of about 100 yards in any direction from the bole.  When a seed is produced (once every five years), a pair of leaves takes it far away so it may claim another territory.  If the seed is planted in a singing tree’s territory, the adults sends its leaves to block sunlight and attack the smaller tree’s leaves.  If several singing trees grow in close proximity, they soon overhunt the area and several dies, leaving only the strongest.  They live for centuries if well fed

Some wealthy individuals have tried to procure specimens for their own gardens.  Many owners feed their trees, but others keep their trees hungry so they will serve as guardians.  A tree that is kept hungry turns feral eventually, sending all its leaves to attack any warm-blooded creature that enters its territory.

Ecology: A singing tree in the wild is similar to other predators, feeding upon prey and facing a few enemies of its own.  Animals that damage wood are its greatest enemies.

To bring a tree to civilization, one of the rare seeds must be captured, or a tree must be carefully removed from the surrounding soil, with little damage to the roots.  Transportation must also be gentle, and the tree must not be exposed to rapid changes in temperature or to extreme temperatures.  Capturing a healthy adult tree also requires facing its music and blood-sucking leaves.  A seed or healthy tree can bring as much as 5,000 gp from an interested buyer.

Originally appeared in City of Delights (1993).


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2009)

Reminds me a bit of Old Man Willow.

Well, blood sucking is usually Con damage, but we might change the number of points per leaf.  That's an unusual mechanic.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

I could see limiting the number of individual leaves released, and treating each as a mini-stirge.   For the "release all leaves at once" option, perhaps treat them as a swarm or two?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

I like that idea!  Probably a single swarm, I'd think.  

More basic here: Large or Huge?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

It sounds like Large, with advancement to Huge.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

The swarm idea is quite clever. I like it.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Looking at some other stats:

Walking Tree (H): Str 34, Dex 8, Con 24, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Bohun Tree (G): Str 34, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10

Ironmaw (H): Str 30, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 14
Octopus Tree (H): Str 30, Dex 3, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15
Orcwort (C): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Dark Tree (H): Str 28, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 7
Ancient Night Twist (H): Str 45, Dex 6, Con 34, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 23
Flesh-Mulcher Tree (H): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 4
Bonetree (H): Str 10, Dex 10, Con 20, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Death's Head Tree (H): Str 20, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 1

So maybe Str 14, Dex 7, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 17?  High Cha for the singing?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Those stats seem great, although I think we could apply Con-based to the save in this situation.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

I like the Cha based singing, though.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Getting started on the leaves...

Blood-Draining Leaves (Ex):  A singing tree has a number of leaves equal to its normal maximum hit point total.  Each round, it may release a number of individual leaves equal to its Hit Dice and send them to attack prey.   The leaves are treated as separate creatures, but use the singing tree's base attack and base saving throw bonuses.   Damage dealt to the leaves has no effect on the singing tree, nor do effects that target the leaves, and vice versa.  While attached to the singing tree, the leaves are not considered separate creatures and cannot be targeted individually.

Leaf Swarm (Ex):  A singing tree may release all its leaves at once.  In this case, the leaves are treated as a swarm, using the statistics below.  Damage dealt to the swarm has no effect on the singing tree, nor do effects that target the swarm, and vice versa.  While attached to the singing tree, the swarm is not considered a separate creature and cannot be targeted separately from the singing tree.


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

I like that for a start.  Should we do the singing first, or stat out the leaf-critters?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Let's work on the leaf-critters.

We can probably use the stirge as a basis for the singular leaves, although the leaves are probably Diminutive.

Here's a rough draft...

Diminutive Plant
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly x ft. (x)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+3 (+15 when attached)
Attack: Feeding-tube +16 melee (1 plus attach)
Full Attack: Feeding-tube +16 melee (1 plus attach)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 10, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Weapon Finesse

Attach (Ex): If a singing tree leaf hits with a feeding tube attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body. An attached leaf is effectively grappling its prey. The leaf loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 14, but holds on with great tenacity. Leaves have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A singing tree's leaves drains blood, dealing 1 point of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 1 point of Constitution damage, it detaches and returns to the singing tree.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't understand the BAB/grapple numbers.  I think the main thing is I don' t understand the +8 BAB for the 1/4 HD.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

In the writeup for the leaves in the earlier post, I gave 'em the tree's BAB and base saves (so they'd have a chance against foes at the tree's CR).

Sorry for the confusion!


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Sounds fair to me, let's just give them an SA to do that.


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## Melatuis (Mar 19, 2009)

Do the leaves fly or glide when released?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Let's simulate gliding by a not-so-great maneuverability, maybe.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's simulate gliding by a not-so-great maneuverability, maybe.




Agreed, since gliding doesn't usually allow for ascending, and they need a way to float back up into the tree.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

So, should we say 20 or 30 ft and maybe poor maneuverability?  Could also give Hover as a bonus feat to simulate how leaves float in the wind, but I'm not sure.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.  Revising...

*Blood-Draining Leaves (Ex): *A singing tree has a number of leaves equal to its normal maximum hit point total. Each round, it may release a number of individual leaves equal to its Hit Dice and send them to attack prey. The leaves are treated as separate creatures, but use the singing tree's base attack and base saving throw bonuses. Damage dealt to the leaves has no effect on the singing tree, nor do effects that target the leaves, and vice versa. While attached to the singing tree, the leaves are not considered separate creatures and cannot be targeted individually.

_Singing Tree Leaf_
Diminutive Plant
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 30 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+3 (+15 when attached)
Attack: Feeding-tube +16 melee (1 plus attach)
Full Attack: Feeding-tube +16 melee (1 plus attach)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 10, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Hover (B), Weapon Finesse

Attach (Ex): If a singing tree leaf hits with a feeding tube attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body. An attached leaf is effectively grappling its prey. The leaf loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 14, but holds on with great tenacity. Leaves have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached singing tree leaf can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached singing tree leaf through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the leaf.

Blood Drain (Ex): A singing tree's leaves drains blood, dealing 1 point of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 1 point of Constitution damage, it detaches and returns to the singing tree. 

Part of a Greater Whole (Ex):  Since the singing tree leaves are extensions of the singing tree itself, the leaves use the base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses of the singing tree.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Looks good, although Weapon Finesse is also a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Updated the main entry.

Shall we work on the swarm now?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

I still don't think the grapple bonus is right.  It should be +8 (BAB) -4 (Str) -12 (Diminutive) = -8 when not attached.  Right? The rest is fine.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Oops.  You are correct.  I've updated the entry, and increased the racial bonus to give them a fighting chance at their probably CR.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Now that looks good, and I'm ready for the swarm.

Sorry I'm a bit slow: I had to wait at home for an internet repair guy all day, only to find out that the problem was really with the neighborhood server and not at my end after all.  So now I'm behind at work, too....


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

No worries.  

Leaf swarm HD = 1/2 parent tree's HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2009)

Sure!


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Agreed.  Swarm damage includes 1d4 Con?  Based on the damage of the individual leaves, maybe 1d6 for a typical 6HD swarm.  That's assuming 1/4 of the leaves attack each victim, so I could see an argument for 1d4 instead.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

How's this?

Leaf Swarm (Ex): A singing tree may release all its leaves at once. In this case, the leaves are treated as a swarm, using the statistics below. Damage dealt to the swarm has no effect on the singing tree, nor do effects that target the swarm, and vice versa. While attached to the singing tree, the swarm is not considered a separate creature and cannot be targeted separately from the singing tree.

_Leaf Swarm_
Diminutive Plant (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 6d8 (27 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 30 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/—
Attack: Swarm (1d6 plus blood drain)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6 plus blood drain)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood drain, distraction (DC 13)
Special Qualities: Immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, part of a greater whole, plant traits, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 10, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Hover (B)

Blood Drain (Ex): Any living creature damaged by a leaf swarm also takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage as the swarm drains its blood. This damage repeats every round thereafter unless the creature successfully exits the swarm and spends a full-round action removing leaves from its body.

Part of a Greater Whole (Ex): Since the leaf swarm is an extension of the singing tree itself, the swarm uses the base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses of the singing tree.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

> If the tree is killed, individual leaves die in 1d10 rounds.




Should we note that the leaves and swarms continue to attack anything nearby for 1d10 rounds after the singing tree's death?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Sure, but only ones that are unattached.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Updated.

Let's work on the singing...



> The singing tree appears to be a normal deciduous tree with uniquely shaped leaves.  Each leaf sings with a lovely voice, the hundreds of them blending into a beautiful chorus.  If hungry, the tree joins the chorus, adding its own bass line.






> When the tree uses its bass line, all mammalian creatures within 100 yards must roll saving throws vs. spell; those who do not succeed feel compelled to stop for a bit and rest in the shade of the tree.  When a potential victim rests beneath the tree, several leaves fly off the tree to attack.






> In the wild, singing trees grow in secluded places and use their music to lure unintelligent animals.  The tree’s leaves vibrate in the wind; combined with their natural magic, this makes a lovely sound.  Each leaf has its own “voice,” and the music is indescribably beautiful.  When the tree adds its lower tones, the song becomes very attractive and calming.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Maybe a weak compulsion from the leaf-singing that attracts any creature in a largish radius (like a harpy, but weaker) and a fascination effect in a smaller radius from the tree singing?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

That sounds like a good approach.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

I dunno about fascination. It appears to be a genuine sleep effect--one that isn't broken by taking damage.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I dunno about fascination. It appears to be a genuine sleep effect--one that isn't broken by taking damage.



That's true.  It's actually a pretty powerful sleep effect since wounding doesn't end it (more like a symbol of sleep than a sleep or deep slumber spell).  Want to go that nothing nonmagical can awaken the victim for a set duration or else make it a normal sleep effect but that isn't disturbed by the leaves?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm fine either way.   We could give the leaves and swarm an anesthetize ability like the leech swarm if we choose the latter.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I think I prefer anesthetize just because I'm not sure what magical options there are to wake someone up in the SRD.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

OK, so...

Anesthetize (Ex): A creature attacked by a leaf/leaf swarm must succeed on a Spot check (opposed by the leaf/leaf swarm's Hide check) to notice the attack. Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Spot check to notice the leaf/leaf swarm, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first.  Sleeping creatures are not entitled to a Spot check.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

Bingo!


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.

Now we just need to gather our thoughts on the singing into an ability writeup.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Maybe 2 different abilities. How are these?

Leaf Singing (Su): The leaves of a singing tree constantly sing an enchanting song in the upper register.  This song floats on the wind, so that all creatures within 1 mile? must make a DC X Will save or become charmed by the tree, moving toward the tree, taking the most direct route available.  The victim may avoid obvious hazards, defend himself, and carry on other activities such as speaking, retrieving items from a pack, as long as he generally continues to move toward the tree.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting charm effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based (and includes a -X racial penalty?).  A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same singing tree's leaf song for 24 hours.

Trunk Singing (Su): When a singing tree notices nearby victims, the trunk can add a bass line to the leaves' chorus.  When the trunk sings, all creatures within 300 ft (?) must make a DC X saving throw or be compelled to walk directly into the shade, lie down, and fall asleep.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting, sleep, and compulsion effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

I think those look pretty good!


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Thoughts about ranges?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

I think your proposed ranges seem reasonable.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

-4 racial penalty on the leaf singing to make that a little weaker than the trunk?  Or do we want it to be just as powerful?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm fine with either approach.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Oh, let's compromise and go with -2 unless demiurge weighs in soon.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 15

Feats: 5


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Uhh, max out Spot?  Seriously, these don't need many skills.  Or we could use perform checks for the DC of the singing abilities and go with Perform (song); the DCs would end up probably quite a bit higher, though (on average by about 10).

Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Ability Focus (trunksong), Skill Focus (Spot)?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Since they are nearly mindless, let's skip the Perform checks.

The rest of your suggestions look great. 

Challenge Rating: 11?  The similar-HD ironmaw is CR 13, but it has greater damage output and quite a bit more immunities.

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 13-19 HD (Large); 20-26 HD (Huge); 27-39 HD (Gargantuan)?

A singing tree grows 10 to 20 feet tall, with a “trunk” about x feet in diameter. (x= 2 feet?)


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Let's do half-standard as "incidental" treasure.  Other than that, I like the rest of the suggestions.  These guys are almost hazards.

Speaking of, which was that plant we were thinking of doing as hazards?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

That'll work.  Updated.

The hazard you're thinking of is the whispering pine in the Overhaul thread.  I mostly lost interest once I realized they'd remain hazards.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

So -- are these done?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

I think so.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

*Dragon-kin, Sea Wyrm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN Tropical and subtropical seas
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE Nil (Rx2)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING 1-3
ARMOR CLASS 5
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 18
HIT DICE Young (7-8 HD)
Adolescent (9-10 HD)
Adult (11-12 HD)
Ancient (13-14 HD)
THACO
7-8 HD: 13
9-10 HD: 11
11-12 HD: 9
13-14 HD: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6 (bite) or 3d8 (constriction)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon (sleep 3d8 rds), swallow (if adult or ancient)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (up to 12’ long) if 7-10 HD, H (12‘-25’ long) if 11-14 HD
MORALE Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE 7-8 HD 1,400
9-16 HD: 2,000
11-12 HD: 3,000
13-14 HD: 4,000

Sea wyrms are elongated legless and wingless sea dragons found in tropical and subtropical seas. Probably one of the sources for the tales of legendary sea serpents, these lazy creatures rarely attack anyone or anything not intruding on their territory. They are usually serene and majestic, often venturing quite close to land if left undisturbed. Occasionally, a family of sea wyrms will be seen traveling together by sailors who venture into deeper seas.

Combat:  Sea wyrms grow larger, but not particularly stronger, as they age; thus, the bite and constriction of a young sea wyrm are just as damaging as that of its elders. Though they are normally nonaggressive, sea wyrms will attack ships or creatures who invade what they consider to be their territory. All sea wyrms can bite for 2d6 points of damage and constrict for 3d8 points. If attacking a ship, every 10 points of constriction damage acts as 1 hull point against the vessel. If the ship is smaller than the sea wyrm, the wyrm can completely encircle the en& vessel, roll it over, and drag it beneath the waves. Because of this, they are greatly feared by fishermen and others who usually have smaller boats.

Adult and ancient sea wyrm have other attacks as well. If they make a bite attack and score 5 more than they need to hit, they have swallowed their prey whole. The victim takes normal damage (2d6) from the bite and an additional 2d6 paints of damage per round thereafter from stomach acids. The usual methods may be employed to escape from the creature’s stomach. At any time an adult or ancient sea wyrm may choose to forgo its normal attack and use its breath weapon instead. This is a cone of sleep gas 5 feet wide at the base, 30 feet wide at the far end, and reaching 30 feet. Those caught in the cone must save vs. breath weapon or fall asleep for 3 to 24) rounds. The wyrm can use this attack only once per day.

Habitat/Society: Sea wyrms lair in underwater caves or in remote caves on islands. They can breathe equally well in air or water and move about on land by slithering like a snake. They eat just about anything but are particularly fond of fish and fruit. They have been known to slither around a fruit tree and constrict it in an attempt to get at fruit which is beyond their normal reach.

Sea wyrms live in small family groups until the hatchlings are old enough to forage for themselves. When three are found together, they are always a mated pair and a hatchling. Two sea wyrms found together are always a mated pair, as they mate for life. The female produces one egg at a time, which is jealously guarded by both until the young sea wyrm hatches. If captured as hatchlings, sea wyrms make loyal and affectionate pets for sea peoples such as merfolk, tritons, or nereids, willing to fight to the death to defend their companions.

Ecology: Sea wyrms claim undersea or island caves for their lairs and defend the territory around it up to about two miles. They range up to thirty miles from home to feed. Though they produce no useful by-products, there is a growing market in sea wyrm eggs among traders who wish to raise a mobile guard to defend their ships while at sea. Some merchants deal in sea wyrm skins, which bring 1,000 to 3,000 gp.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Two (1995).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

On first glance, you might be thinking "aren't these the sea drakes in Fiend Folio"?   But these fellows start out smaller, have different abilities, and are less intelligent.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2009)

So, how are we going to handle the advancement, if they only get swallow whole when they age? Have a sea wyrm and an elder sea wyrm stat block?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Good point.  That would probably be the most DM-friendly solution.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

They only get the breath weapon later, also.  Two stat blocks definitely seems the way to go.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 7, 2009)

Totally two stat blocks.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Shall we start with the smaller one?

Other Large "sea serpents"...

Crested Sea Serpent: Str 17-23, Dex 14, Con 17-21, Int 8-10, Wis 13-15, Cha 16-18 

Lantern Sea Serpent: Str 17-23, Dex 10, Con 17-21, Int 14-16, Wis 15-17, Cha 14-16

Spiked Sea Serpent: Str 17-25, Dex 12, Con 19-21, Int 6-8, Wis 15-17, Cha 14-16

Dragon Eel: Str 26, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 8, 2009)

Str 21, Dex 14, Con 20?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Sounds good.

Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Sounds good, assuming we're talking about the younger version.  7HD still?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Young version is correct.

The various sea serpents reach Large at 10-12 HD.  The dragon eel is 14 HD.

I could see bumping it up to 10 HD, but 8 HD might still work.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

It looks like we have ranges 7-10 HD for young and 11-14 HD for elder, so let's go with 10HD for the "standard" sea wyrm and 14HD for the elder sea wyrm, if everyone agrees.  We can let the standard one advance to 13 HD, and the elder can advance how we like.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

I like it.  Any objections?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

I like it too.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Let's go with aquatic and amphibious SQ, I think.  Then it looks like we're done with special abilities already.

2d8+Str constrict?

The original AC would imply +4 natural, but that seems a little low.  +10 or +12 or so?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

> If attacking a ship, every 10 points of constriction damage acts as 1 hull point against the vessel. If the ship is smaller than the sea wyrm, the wyrm can completely encircle the vessel, roll it over, and drag it beneath the waves. Because of this, they are greatly feared by fishermen and others who usually have smaller boats.




Downsize this ability from the sea drake?

Constrict Ship (Ex): Instead of crushing a ship with its tail, a sea drake can wrap its serpentine body around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to a rowboath (1 round), keelboats (3 rounds), longships (5 rounds), and sailing ships (10 rounds). Warships and galleys are too large for a sea drake to affect in this way.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Sure (is there some other similar ability we've used elsewhere, too?).  I'm guessing the Large ones can only get rowboats and maybe keelboats.  3 and 5 rounds for those?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Dragon turtle has this...

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long. 

We gave the sea titan a bunch of ship-smashin' abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

I prefer the sea drake's ability as a model, rather than capsize.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, it seems to be the best fit.

Taking freyar's suggestions above, revising...

Constrict Ship (Ex): A sea wyrm can wrap its serpentine body around smaller boats and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to a rowboat (3 rounds) or keelboats (5 rounds). Other seafaring vessels are too large for a sea wyrm to affect in this way.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Looks fine if everyone agrees.  Although, looking at wikipedia, keelboats may be too big for these guys.  I'll have to wait until tonight to look up the D&D definition of a keelboat, though.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

So, are we keel-hauling the keelboat?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Uhh, I never do manage to look things up.   I think we probably should, though.  Maybe the elders can get them.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Listen, Spot, Survival, Swim?  The original description also could make a case for Climb (trying to get fruit from trees).

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Init?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

Wrong thread Freyar? When do these guys climb trees in the ocean?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Lightning Reflexes over Cleave maybe. I like ranks in Climb. Gives it a unique feel, especially if we explain why in the flavor text.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Wrong thread Freyar? When do these guys climb trees in the ocean?




Post #460 has the answers you seek.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

Habitat/Society: Sea wyrms lair in underwater caves or in remote caves on islands. They can breathe equally well in air or water and move about on land by slithering like a snake. They eat just about anything but are particularly fond of fish and fruit. They have been known to slither around a fruit tree and constrict it in an attempt to get at fruit which is beyond their normal reach.

gotcha.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested natural armor bonus?  The original AC converts to 15, which is quite low for a dragon of their HD.

Environment: Temperate and warm aquatic?

Challenge Rating: 6?  They aren't really any deadlier than a wyvern, despite a few additional HD.

Treasure type Rx2 looks like double standard to me.

Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

+6 or +7?  I don't think these are supposed to be too tough.

The rest sounds good.  Makes me think I over-CRed the quelzarns in my sig, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

Hm. A lot more hit points, a lot less attacks. Let's give them +6 to their natural armor and call them CR 7. This guy can do a lot of damage to a single opponent, and is pretty tricky to take down.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Were we going to call these "lesser sea wyrms" and the others "greater sea wyrms", or "young sea wyrms" and "adult sea wyrms" or something else?

A "lesser sea wyrm" is 12 or more feet long and weighs at least x pounds.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

Lesser and Greater is a solid theme, let us go with that.  4,000lbs ?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

I like lesser and greater.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Lesser and greater it is!


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

Updated.  Are we ready to move on to the greater sea wyrms?


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## Leopold (Jun 19, 2009)

Yes. lets do it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2009)

Agreed!


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Aye, captain!


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

So, 11 HD and Huge?



> Sea wyrms grow larger, but not particularly stronger, as they age; thus, the bite and constriction of a young sea wyrm are just as damaging as that of its elders.




I don't like the idea of not increasing the base damage of the natural attacks, but I can see not using the usual +8 Str for the increase from Large to Huge.  Wanna leave Str unchanged, or partially increase it?


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## Leopold (Jun 22, 2009)

Give it +4 and call it even.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

11HD, Huge, increased base damage, and +4 Str sound fine.  Let's give it the normal Con and natural armor boosts for size, though.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

I just realized this...



freyar said:


> It looks like we have ranges 7-10 HD for young and 11-14 HD for elder, so let's go with 10HD for the "standard" sea wyrm and 14HD for the elder sea wyrm, if everyone agrees.  We can let the standard one advance to 13 HD, and the elder can advance how we like.




Fixed Advancement on lesser sea wyrm.

Added greater sea wyrm to Homebrews.

For the breath weapon, we can just borrow the brass dragon's cone of sleep gas and fit it appropriate to its size...

Breath Weapon (Su): 50-foot cone of sleep gas, once every 1d4 rounds, Creatures within the cone must succeed on a DC X Will save or fall asleep, regardless of HD, for 1d6+8 rounds; effective both on the surface and underwater. The save DC is Constitution-based.

We'll need to increase the size categories for constrict ship.  Maybe...

Constrict Ship (Ex): A greater sea wyrm can wrap its serpentine body around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to a rowboat (1 round), keelboats (5 rounds), or longship (10 rounds).  Sailing ships, warships, and galleys are too large for a greater sea wyrm to affect in this way.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

I think that sounds ok!


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Updated.



> Adult and ancient sea wyrm have other attacks as well. If they make a bite attack and score 5 more than they need to hit, they have swallowed their prey whole. The victim takes normal damage (2d6) from the bite and an additional 2d6 paints of damage per round thereafter from stomach acids. The usual methods may be employed to escape from the creature’s stomach.




Borrow from the similarly-sized and shaped behir?

Swallow Whole (Ex): A behir can try to swallow a grabbed opponent up to two sizes smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check.  A swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the behir’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 15). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A behir’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

steal from the behir. It won't mind


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Leopold said:


> steal from the behir. It won't mind



Agreed.  The gizzard AC goes to 14, though, since the natural armor is a little less.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: Climb +15, Listen +15, Spot +15, Survival +10, Swim +24, *plus 16 ranks*

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, *1 more*


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleave, since other monsters (behir and purple worm) indicate that swallowed = "dropped" for the purposes of free attacks. We should specify this in a Feats entry, however.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Cleave, since other monsters (behir and purple worm) indicate that swallowed = "dropped" for the purposes of free attacks. We should specify this in a Feats entry, however.



Let's go with that.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Updated.

For the extra 16 skill ranks, how about 4 more in Climb, Listen, and Spot, and 2 more in Survival and Swim?

Advancement: 15-28 HD (Huge); 29-42 HD (Gargantuan)?

A greater sea wyrm is 16 or more feet long and weighs at least x pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2009)

I think you forgot to actually list Cleave on the feats line.

Skill ranks and advancement are fine.

10,000 lb?


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Oops!  I sure did miss that.

Updated.

CR 10?  They are slightly deadlier than a dragon turtle.


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

10 is fine.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 27, 2009)

Agreed.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

Agreed, and I think it's finished.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Since the last few worms didn't pan out as warranting conversions, we're left a few worms short of a batch.

Remedy #1...

*Worm, Lukhorn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underdark
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (5 interior)
MOVEMENT: 9, Br 9
HIT DICE: 10
THACO: 11
NO. ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Digestive acid, sonic screech
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage, see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (15’ diameter, 100' long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The lukhorn is a burrowing, predatory worm that lurks in the mysterious caverns of the Underdark.  Though the creature is generally gray-skinned in its natural state, the lukhorn can alter its coloration to match almost perfectly the stone around it.

Lukhorns possess a highly malleable body structure; they can mold themselves to the shape of whatever cavern or tunnel they travel through.  The creature’s skin is coated with a sheath of viscous liquid, which it secretes through tiny, pore-like openings.  The liquid helps keep the lukhorn’s skin supple and masks the creature’s body heat from infravision.

The lukhorn averages about 200 feet long, though legends tell of gargantuan versions of this creature.

Combat:  The lukhorn prefers to use its malleable badly and excellent camouflage to mimic a cavern or tunnel opening.  It moves to the mouth of a dark tunnel, shapes its body to the dimensions of the tunnel, then opens its huge mouth.  The lukhorn promptly swallows any creature that walks into its mouth.  Those native to the Underdark can see through the lukhorn’s camouflage with a successful Wisdom check; surface dwellers cannot pierce the creature’s disguise without magic unless they view it with illumination as bright as sunlight.

Extremely hungry lukhorns do not wait for their prey to fall into their trap; rather , the monstrous worms may lunge out and attempt to swallow victims as they pass by the worms’ hiding places.  Once creature per round can be attacked.  If the attack is successful, the prey is swallowed; unlike creatures such as the giant slug or purple worm, the lukhorn inflicts no damage upon a creature until it has been swallowed.

After being swallowed, however, the prey suffers 4d6 points of damage per round from the lukhorn’s digestive juices.  These juices are powerful enough to dissolve wood and cloth in two rounds.  Metal, such as that in armor and weapons, dissolves after 4 rounds of exposure to the creature’s digestive acid.  Magical items are allowed item saving throws vs. acid. 

A swallowed victim may atetempt to cut out of the lukhorn by inflicting 40 points of damage to a concentrated area inside the creature.  However, the lukhorn’s malleable body makes it difficult to injure.  Though only AC 5, the rubbery interior of the creature suffers no damage from bludgeoning weapons; all other weapons subtract 2 points of damage from their total for each successful attack.

If the lukhorn is attacked while digesting prey, the worm emits a powerful sonic screech.  All within a 60-foot radius of the screech must make a saving throw vs. petrification; those who fail writhe in agony on the ground for 1d6 rounds.  The sound of the lukhorn’s screech will carry for miles in the twisting caverns of the Underdark, perhaps attracting or warning off other monsters.

Habitat/Society:  Little is known about the lukhorn life cycle, except that it is a solitary creature, ever wandering in search of food.  Some scholars suggest that these giant worms mate in secret breeding caverns hidden deep within the Underdark—though this has never been proven.  In any event, lukhorns do not seem to reproduce often, or in great numbers.

Ecology:  The lukhorn is among the most powerful predators of the Underdark; it has been known to consume whole patrols of drow warriors.  These creatures are highly carnivorous and driven almost wholly by hunger.

The viscous liquid secreted by the lukhorn is often in high demand by alchemists and wizards (100 gp per vial).  When used in the creation of invisibility and polymorph potions, it extends their durations by 25%.  The liquid, however, dries almost immediately upon the death of the lukhorn; it is extremely difficult to secure more than a vial or two from a recently killed specimen.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996).


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

This thing screams (pun intended) for camouflage, with the special use of stonecunning/Knowledge (dungeoneering) to detect the ruse.

Based on its size, it sounds like it starts at Gargantuan, and advances to Colossal.  It's bigger than a purple worm, after all.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

Agreed to Gargantuan -> Colossal.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

This thing will need a serious HD boost.

Comparable worms:

Purple worm (G): 16 HD, Str 35, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8, The body of a mature purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.

Century Worm (G): 40 HD, Str 35, Dex 7, Con 22, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2, specific length and diameter not given, but its "round, tooth-lined mouth easily accommodates an ogre"

Lucent Worm (G): 22 HD, Str 34, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8, 5 feet in diameter and almost 100 feet long, weighing in at 55,000 to 60,000 pounds

This thing is 15 feet in diameter and "averages about 200 feet long" (or 100 feet long if you go with the stat block).

So I'm thinking HD somewhere between the lucent worm and the century worm, Str 35+, Con 25, and Dex somewhere in the 6-9 range.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2009)

That works for me.

How do you want to handle the "walk in and get swallowed" trap?  This seems to go beyond the usual Imp Grab, Swallow Whole routine.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

> INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)




How about 32 HD, Str 38, Dex 7, Con 27, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 8?



freyar said:


> How do you want to handle the "walk in and get swallowed" trap?  This seems to go beyond the usual Imp Grab, Swallow Whole routine.




We've got a precedent.  

Camouflage (Su): Since a tunnel terror looks like a part of the tunnel terror looks like a part of the tunnel when at rest, it takes a successful Spot check (DC 20) to notice it before it attacks. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice a tunnel terror.

Engulf (Ex): A tunnel terror can engulf one Large or smaller foe that has stepped into its body by making a successful grapple attempt against its foe. This move does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Engulfed victims are entangled and automatically take damage from suffocating constriction (see below). If the tunnel terror gets a hold, it is free to use its tentacles to strike at other targets while it constricts. Attacks made on an engulfing tunnel terror deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.

Suffocating Constriction (Ex): An engulfed creature takes 1d8+13 points of bludgeoning damage, has no air to breathe, and begins to suffocate.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Good call on the tunnel terror! I don't know if being swallowed warrants saves vs. suffocation though.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Good call on the tunnel terror! I don't know if being swallowed warrants saves vs. suffocation though.



I agree with your sentiment.  Let's just use the normal swallow whole and say that engulfed victims are swallowed whole.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested natural armor?  The other Gargantuan worms range between +15 and +25.



> The creature’s skin is coated with a sheath of viscous liquid, which it secretes through tiny, pore-like openings.  The liquid helps keep the lukhorn’s skin supple and masks the creature’s body heat from infravision.




Darkvision is no longer heat-based, but do we want to retain some sort of additional nondetecton benefit from the liquid?


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## Leopold (Jul 17, 2009)

+22 Natural armor


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

It could just be invisible to darkvision. There's a magic item that does that--ring of the darkhidden, I think.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.



> If the lukhorn is attacked while digesting prey, the worm emits a powerful sonic screech.  All within a 60-foot radius of the screech must make a saving throw vs. petrification; those who fail writhe in agony on the ground for 1d6 rounds.  The sound of the lukhorn’s screech will carry for miles in the twisting caverns of the Underdark, perhaps attracting or warning off other monsters.




Sonic effect that requires a Fort save or fall prone and lose all actions except writhe in agony?  Usable once every 1d4 rounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2009)

So, it's Tasha's hideous laughter but full of agony instead? I like that. We should keep the "heard for miles, may attract monsters" provision, borrowing text perhaps from the shrieker.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Like so?

Sonic Screech (Ex):  Once every 1d4 rounds, a lukhorn may emit a horrific screech.  All creatures within a 60-foot-radius of the lukhorn must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or fall prone and writhe in agony.  Victims can take no actions while writhing, but is not considered helpless.   This is a sonic effect.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Additionally, the screech carries for miles, and may attract nearby creatures that are disposed to investigate it.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Make it "but are not considered helpless," and I like it! 

Also, just thought of something: let's make Engulf an immediate action.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Love the sonic screech... but not sure about the immediate engulf. Care to give an argument for it?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, perhaps it doesn't matter much if the lukhorn gets surprise on everybody, but I don't really like the idea of someone Spotting it after a party member walks in and then the lukhorn missing a meal because its Initiative stinks (even if we go all out with feats, it's not going to be good, unless we rejigger stats).  The immediate action lets it gobble right at the start of the surprise round.

Speaking of, given the likely CR, should we increase the camouflage DC at least to 25 or 30?  I suppose lighting might help, but it's not like distance is going to increase the DC for this.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Agreed to increasing the camo DC. And with that rationale, engulf makes a certain amount of sense as an immediate. Still, it's a big creature, and its reflexes might not be that good. Think the scene in the asteroid in Empire Strikes Back.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, that makes a point.  I just don't want to nerf it too much.  Let's see what Shade thinks.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, it can get Superior Initiative, which will bring its modifier up to +6.  That's no so bad for a big critter, right?

Updated.



> After being swallowed, however, the prey suffers 4d6 points of damage per round from the lukhorn’s digestive juices.  These juices are powerful enough to dissolve wood and cloth in two rounds.  Metal, such as that in armor and weapons, dissolves after 4 rounds of exposure to the creature’s digestive acid.  Magical items are allowed item saving throws vs. acid.




None of the usual crushing damage for swallow whole?



> A swallowed victim may atetempt to cut out of the lukhorn by inflicting 40 points of damage to a concentrated area inside the creature.  However, the lukhorn’s malleable body makes it difficult to injure.  Though only AC 5, the rubbery interior of the creature suffers no damage from bludgeoning weapons; all other weapons subtract 2 points of damage from their total for each successful attack.




Internal damage reduction?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok, but let's make sure it gets that feat. 

No crushing, but maybe even increase the acid.  What do you think?

Don't you already have to use a slashing or piercing weapon?  So DR X/slashing or piercing is kind of pointless.  I'm not sure about subtracting 2 for any other weapon.  What would overcome that DR?  Magic again will be pretty commonplace at the likely CR, and nothing else sensible springs to mind.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

4d6 isn't bad, but I could be persuaded to increase it.

Correct on the need for a slashing or piercing weapon.  If we went with the DR, I was thinking it would be 2/-.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

DR 2/- is fine.  Unusual, but interesting and fun!

Let's stick to 4d6 acid, since the DR is going to help keep victims inside longer, unless someone has a really good argument to increase it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

I think we should add back the bludgeoning damage. I mean, a great bloody cavern just collapsed on you. That's going to hurt.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Updated.

Since this thing is quite a bit larger than a purple worm (although still in the same size category), shall we increase its "gizzard capacity"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Totally. How much? An additional Large creature, so two more Medium, etc?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, that sounds about right, following the same ratio.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, this is looking pretty good.

Skills: it doesn't need Hide, since it's camouflaging, but maybe Move Silently makes sense.  Some Spot and Listen, too?  How about Listen 12, Move Silently 11, Spot 12?

Feats: Snatch, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (sonic screech), Iron Will
Epic: Superior Initiative
Need 3 more, can be epic.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

How about the little used Reckless Offense from the psionic section of the SRD?   Stand Still?  Improved Critical (bite)?

Also, we can swap out Iron Will for Epic Will.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

I like Stand Still, Imp. Crit and Epic Will.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Good ideas!  So it now looks like

Feats: Snatch, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (sonic screech), Reckless Offense, Stand Still, Improved Critical (Bite)
Epic: Superior Initiative, Epic Will

That would work.  As an alternative, we could swap out Stand Still and Imp Crit for Improved Trip and Knock-Down.  I'm ambivalent about the two options.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 18?  It seems right between the lucent (CR 17) and century worm (CR 19).

Advancement: 33–64 HD (Colossal)?

The body of a mature lukhorn is 15 feet in diameter and 200 feet long, weighing about x,000 pounds.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Sure, sure, and 450 tons (based on scaling the purple worm).


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Updated.

Wanna do anything with this?



> The viscous liquid secreted by the lukhorn is often in high demand by alchemists and wizards (100 gp per vial).  When used in the creation of invisibility and polymorph potions, it extends their durations by 25%.  The liquid, however, dries almost immediately upon the death of the lukhorn; it is extremely difficult to secure more than a vial or two from a recently killed specimen.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Underbar to say that the secretion of a lukhorn can reduce the cost of invisibility-related magic items by 25% (easier to deal with and more standard than duration), but only 2 vials can be recovered quickly enough?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Think so!


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Erm, if it can swallow creatures smaller than itself, shouldn't it have a number of Huge sized opponents listed in the capacity of its gullet? Something like "A Gargantuan lukhorn's interior can hold 3 Huge, 12 Large, 48 Medium, 192 Small or 768 Tiny or smaller opponents."


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

Good point.  Either that, or change the text to "two size categories smaller".  Probably the former fits best with the other worms.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good point.  Either that, or change the text to "two size categories smaller".  Probably the former fits best with the other worms.




I'd prefer it to able to swallow Huge victims, since it appears to be unusually elastic. If it can stretch itself out to fit all manner of tunnels, I'd think it could stretch itself to swallow bigger than normal prey as well.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2009)

Perhaps if we go up to Huge victims, we should reduce back to 2 rather than 3 of the largest size, etc. (same progression as purple worms, just a size larger).


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Perhaps if we go up to Huge victims, we should reduce back to 2 rather than 3 of the largest size, etc. (same progression as purple worms, just a size larger).




Or cut it down to a single Huge, 4 Large, 16 Medium et cetera, like we did with our conversion of the *Gargantuan Titanoboa*.

Although at the moment I prefer 2 Huge, since I think an elastic, boneless worm should be more "swallowy" than a snake.


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

I prefer 2 Huge, since we wanted this to have a larger capacity than a purple worm.  Purples can have 2 Large critter swallowed, which traditionally is considered the same as 1 Huge.  Allowing 1 Huge would then only be like increasing "jaw size" vs "gullet size," and I think we wanted to do both.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

Looks fine.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Finished?




I accord.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

*Ekimmu*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins & wilderness
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: None
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Prefers night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-intelligent
TREASURE: 25% F
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: - 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: As per victim
NO. OF ATTACKS: As per victim
DAMAGE/ATTACK: As per victim
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Possession
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L
MORALE: Fearless (20)
X.P. VALUE: 2,000

Ekimmu are undead spirits that hate humans (and demihumans) and seek only to wreak havoc and destroy their victims. The ekimmu themselves were once humans. The ekummu died far from home and were not given proper burial rites. Those unfortunates who were good or neutral merely bemoan their fate, seeking proper burial. Those unfortunates who were evil became undead to satisfy their hatred and destroy anyone fortunate enough to be living.

Note that, if the characters can find the remains of the ekimmu, and give it proper burial, the ekimmu will cease plaguing its victims.

An ekimmu appears as a bull-headed, spectral humanoid nearly 10’ tall. It thus looks a bit like a ghostly minotaur. An ekummu may be invisible until it attacks. If invisible, however, its presence will still be felt as a ghastly wind carrying the charnel stench of the grave.

Combat: The ekimmu does not attack physically, at least not directly. The monster has one desire: to inhabit a physical body again. Thus, it seeks to possess the body of a character. If the victim fails its save versus spells then that individual becomes possessed. The ekummu will then seek to wreak havoc on the rest of the party, attacking as if it were the possessed character.

Note: In their mindless fury, ekimmu are classed as “semi-intelligent” so DMs may wish to limit the intelligent use of spells by ekimmu in possession of a spell-caster’s body.

An ekimmu has no care whatsoever for the body it possesses. In fact, the ekimmu will do its best to get that body killed. When in possession of a body the ekimmu will only take one point of damage for every two points of damage taken by that body. It is thus possible, but difficult, to dissipate the ekimmu (i.e., reduce it to 0 hp) without killing the possessed host. If so, the possession ends and the victim returns to normal (retaining any damage taken until cured). It also is possible that the host body will be slain, leaving the ekimmu with hit points. In that case, the ekimmu will leave that body and seek to possess another victim. The ekimmu will continue attacking until all the characters are dead, or it is dissipated. 

Even in possession of a body, the ekimmu retains many special undead powers. It is immune to sleep, charm, hold, paralysis, and cold-based spells and poison. It will take 2d4 points of damage from holy water, but so will the possessed victim. The most effective spell against the ekimmu is a holy word spell. If an ekimmu seeks to possess a character ‘s body, and the character makes its save versus spells, then that character is immune to further possession attempts by that particular ekimmu. Another ekimmu may attempt possession. Likewise, the ekimmu can try to possess another character.

In its natural form, the ekimmu has little physical substance, hence its low armor class. When in possession of a victim the ekimmu has the same armor class as the victim. A cleric has the same chance to turn an ekimmu as she does a vampire. 

Note: A group of ekimmu can be especially deadly. In gaming, it was found that few things were more deadly to the characters than the characters themselves. A DM may want to take special care in an encounter with multiple ekimmu.

Habitat/Society: Ekimmu are mainly solitary. Ekimmu may, however, band together to better vent their hatred. Ekimmu are more likely to band together under circumstances where several of them died in the same place at the same time. Ekimmu have no real society. Ekimmu are most likely to be found in wilderness areas where no one has discovered their remains and given them proper funeral rites. Ruins and isolated caverns are among the favorite lairs for ekimmu.

Ekimmu prefer to remain reasonably close to the spot where they died, but they are not limited to such a spot, and may sometimes roam at will. If so, the ekimmu usually will return to the spot of its death every few days. Seeing its unburied remains serves to rekindle the anger and hatred of the ekimmu.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #210 (1994).

*Ekimmu*
CLIMATmERRAIN Wilderness, ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION Solitary or band
ACTIVITY CYCLE Nocturnal
DIET: carnivore
INTELLIGENCE Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE Nil (F 25% chance)
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 Or 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 4 or as host
MOVEMENT: 12 or as host
HIT DICE 8
THACO Nil or as host
NO. OF ATTACKS 1 or as host
DAMAGWATTACK: Nil or as host
SPECIAL ATTACKS Possession
SPECIAL DEFENSES invisibility; immune to sleep,charm, hold, paralysis, cold-based spells and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE Nil
SIZE L (10' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP Value: 3,000

An ekimmu is an angry undead spirit that was once human. It is created when a human dies far from home and is not given proper burial rites; for this reason an ekimmu hates humans, demihumans, and humanoids, and seeks vengeance against the living.  An ekimmu appears as a spectral, bull-headed humanoid nearly 10 feet tall, much like a ghostly minotaur.

Combat:  The ekimmu may be completely invisible before it attacks; in this case its presence will be felt as a ghastly wind carrying the charnel stench of the grave, and its presence may be detected as a malevolent and brooding evil.

The ekimmu does not attack directly.  Instead, it seeks to take over the body of a character.  The potential host is allowed a saving throw vs. spell to avoid the attack.  If the saving throw is successful, then that ekimmu cannot try to take over that character again during the same encounter.  It might try to take over some other character.

If the character fails the saving throw, then the ekimmu uses the host body to wreak havoc on all other intelligent living creatures in the area, attacking exactly as if it were the controlled character.  In its fury, the semi-intelligent ekimmu is unlikely to use spells memorized by a spellcasting host; physical attacks are most likely.  The ekimmu attacks furiously with no care whatsoever for the host body.   Should the host be slain, the ekimmu will leave the host and take over another. In its natural form, the ekimmu has no physical attacks, but its wispy substance gives it an unnaturally low Armor Class.

While in a host, the ekimmu has the host’s Armor Class, taking one point of damage itself for every two points of damage inflicted on the host.  Should the ekimmu be reduced to 0 hit points, it is forced out of the host and dissipated, and the host (if alive) returns to normal. The ekimmu will continue attacking until all characters are slain, all characters have saved against its attack, or until it is driven out or dissipated.

The ekimmu gives its host many of its undead powers: immunity to sleep, charm, hold, paralysis, cold-based spells and poison.  However, it (and its host) takes 2d4 points of damage from a vial of holy water.  A protection from evil spell will block its possession attack.  A dispel evil exorcises it from its host and gives the host immunity as if a successful saving throw had been made.  A holy word immediately exorcises all ekimmu in its area and drives them away, ending the encounter.

If the characters cn find the remains of the ekimmu and give it a proper burial, the ekimmu will dissipate, abandoning any host it controls.

An ekimmu outside a host body can be turned as a vampire.  Note:  A group of ekimmu can be especially deadly, since each ekimmu can attack each character in the group.  The DM should exercise special care when preparing an encounter with multiple ekimmu.

HabitatlSociety: Ekimmu are most likely to be found in wilderness areas where no one has found their remains and given them proper funeral rites. Ruins and isolated caverns are among their most common haunts.

Ekimmu usually remain dose to the spot they died, but are not bound to it; many roam at will. A wandering ekimmu usually returns to the site of its death every few days.  Seeing its unburied remains again rekindles its anger and hatred.

Ekimmu are solitary, but sometimes form bands to better vent their hatred.  Bands are most likely when the individuals died in the same place at the same time.

Ecology: Ekimmu try to destroy any intelligent life that encounter. As long as its remains are unburied, a dissipated ekimmu will eventually reform, though this may take some days or weeks.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #210 (1994) and later in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Pathfinder actually did a version of the ekimmu in their Legacy of Fire path. That version was the undead of a genie trapped on the material plane. No possession, lots of wind-themed powers. So I think we'd be well justified in doing our own version.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Plus, Echohawk doesn't count the Pathfinder bestiaries for conversions. 

The real question is how we distinguish them from ghosts?  Their schtick seems to be the same as a ghost's malevolence. 

When we get that far, I think I favor making these monsters rather than templates.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

They seem more specialized than ghosts.  They have malevolence, but lack corrupting touch, corrupting gaze, and so forth.

I agree with monster rather than template.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Agreed that they're more specialized.  I guess I'd like to give them something small that ghosts don't have.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Ekimmu - Monstropedia - the largest encyclopedia about monsters

We could give it some wind-related powers to differentiate them, or perhaps something akin to the breathdrinker's "steal breath" ability.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Steal breath is an idea.  I was also thinking of some other anger or rage related powers.  Not as strong as possessing someone and going nuts, but maybe provoking others somehow.

Oh!  Brainstorm!  How about they can rage as barbarians when possessing someone?  Or, better yet, maybe as frenzied berzerkers or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I like possessing frenzy. Steal breath like a breathdrinker I don't like, but if they stole the dying breath of their victims to gain death knell or a negative level, I'd be all over that.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Ok, so let's give them malevolence and the abiity to frenzy.  Want to do regular rage, rage that only ends on someone's death (like wolverines), SRD variant barbarian whirling frenzy, or something else?  We had Stormcrown ogres get the following:


> Blood Frenzy (Ex): If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage suffered since its last action) at the start of its next action or enter a blood frenzy. While in a blood frenzy, the ogre
> must attempt to attack the most recent creature or object to damage it; if that is not possible, it must attempt to attack the nearest creature instead. In addition, it gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus when making a full attack. The blood frenzy lasts until either the ogre or its opponent is dead, after which the stonecrown ogre is fatigued.
> 
> To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the stonecrown ogre may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues.



or frenzied berzerker: must attack, +6 Str, -4AC, extra attack (with all at -2), 2 nonlethal damage per round?

I like the death knell idea.  Maybe as a move or even swift action?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I like swift action death knell, and rage that only ends on death (or dispelling via calm emotions/remove curse or by expelling the ekimmu).


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

All that sounds great!

So 8 HD incoporeal undead?

Int is listed as 2-4.   No Str or Con.  AC translates to 16, so Dex and Cha modifiers should add up to +6.

Maybe Str -, Dex 18, Con -, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 14?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Those stats look good, and I guess we're going with rage something like a wolverine.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

If the possession is Cha based, I'd rather average those Charisma and Dexterity scores, so we have 16s in both.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If the possession is Cha based, I'd rather average those Charisma and Dexterity scores, so we have 16s in both.



Good point, I'll agree to that.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Fair enough!

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Something I just noticed, since these like to fight while using malevolence: is a ghost or ekimmu damaged at all if the host body takes damage?  Magic jar would seem to indicate not.  The way we have possessing fury written, we need to clarify that.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

I would assume the same.  The ekimmu essentially "uses up" the body.

Suggested rewrite?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Add on: "If the host body is damaged while possessed by the ekimmu, the damage is taken only by the host creature and not the ekimmu, though the ekimmu is expelled if the host body is killed."?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

Add that to malevolence or possessing fury?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

Malevolence seems a good place for it.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Malevolence seems a good place for it.



Yup.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 12

Feats: 3


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

You mean 11 ranks, right?  I'm thinking Intimidate here.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Intimidate sounds good.

Ability Focus (malevolence), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2009)

Feats sound eminately reasonable.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Feats sound eminately reasonable.



Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary or x (2–4) [x="fury", "riot", "brawl"?]

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 9-24 HD (Large)?

Ekimmu speak x.  [x="Any languages they knew in life (usually Common)"?]


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

Suggestions are good.  I like "brawl" for organization.  CR 5?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2009)

CR 5 seems right.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

We may have missed a few things...



> The ekimmu gives its host many of its undead powers: immunity to sleep, charm, hold, paralysis, cold-based spells and poison.  However, it (and its host) takes 2d4 points of damage from a vial of holy water.  A protection from evil spell will block its possession attack.  A dispel evil exorcises it from its host and gives the host immunity as if a successful saving throw had been made.  A holy word immediately exorcises all ekimmu in its area and drives them away, ending the encounter.




I'm not sure that magic jar, as written, allows it to retain its undead immunities (and vulnerabilities) while possessing the host, as this seems to imply.



> If the characters cn find the remains of the ekimmu and give it a proper burial, the ekimmu will dissipate, abandoning any host it controls.






> As long as its remains are unburied, a dissipated ekimmu will eventually reform, though this may take some days or weeks.




It sounds like we need rejuvenation as well, and maybe an additional note that performing the proper burial rites immediately destroys it.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

Shouldn't it still retain immunity to mind-affecting, since its mind is in the body?  But I do think we need to add the being driven out by dispel evil, etc.  Protection from evil should already work, right?

Agreed to rejuvenation, etc.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd suppose, but that spell is effin' confusing.  



			
				magic jar said:
			
		

> If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

No joke.  Perhaps we should spell out a couple of things and leave the rest for DM interpretation?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

We may have to!


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

How's this (new stuff in *bold*)?

Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ekimmu can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ekimmu's Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ekimmu must be move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful DC 19 Will save. A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ekimmu's malevolence for 24 hours, and the ekimmu cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ekimmu vanishes into the target’s body. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*The host body benefits from the ekimmu's undead immunities, but also takes damage from holy water and positive energy as if it were an undead creature.*

If the host body is damaged while possessed by the ekimmu, the damage is taken only by the host creature and not the ekimmu, though the ekimmu is expelled if the host body is killed.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

That looks pretty good to me.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm happy with it, too.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

I'd say so.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2009)

I like it.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

*The Burning Man* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 14 (60 hit points)
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16 x2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: Large (18' tall)
MORALE: Variable (see below)
XP VALUE: 10,000

The Burning Man was first researched for the human/troll wars of Utar the Cruel. Utar, knowing the grievous damage that fire dealt to trolls, ordered the wizard Tukah to construct a vast fire machine to lay waste to a troll army. Tukah began by fashioning a giant man-shaped wicker container, which he filled with pitch. On this form the wizard cast burning sphere, true name, fire shield, wish, and geas. Tukah caused the creation to wail with a fearsome keening, an attack that the golem can use once per day. Anyone hearing this terrible keening is struck with fear.  Any victim has the same chance of escaping this terror as he has of evading a dragon’s breath (save vs. breath weapon to avoid).

The Burning Man appears as a humanoid figure of glowing red coals covered in white-hot cinders. When it strikes with its fists, burning cinders fall from its body to the body of its foe; there they remain and continue to burn until washed away. Each successful blow covers its opponent in more cinders. Unless this victim is magically protected from fire, the pain of the cinders scorching his flesh also lessens his physical abilities. 

Although this is a mighty creation and a powerful servant, extreme care and long thought should be taken before deciding to create one. The fiery nature of this creation fills it with a lust to burn and destroy.even its maker. It is compelled to obedience, but only to the letter of the command. It seeks to pervert the spirit of any command and is for most uses unreliable. Utar was finally defeated by a band of trolls when he was ambushed with only a Burning Man as guard. Utar commanded his construct to attack the trolls; the golem did so, then stood by as a troll ended the life of the Cruel.after all he had been commanded to attack trolls, not protect Utar. After Utar’s demise, the construct was seen to seek the lower parts of the stronghold that led to the secret places of the earth. No doubt somewhere it still burns, hidden where bright light and green things no longer remind it of its unnatural condition.

This golem requires three months of construction time by a wizard of 14th or higher level; it costs 60,000 gold pieces. The Burning Man has the same strength as a flesh golem and can do one point of structural damage each three rounds. 

Combat: An assailant has little chance against this creature. The Burning Man is impervious to magical attacks based on fire or lightning. The spell quench fire extinguishes the cinders and reduces the golem’s armor class to AC 6; this lasts one round per experience level of the caster. A + 2 or better magical weapon is needed to damage this construct. A Burning Man regenerates at the rate of one point each turn. Once hacked to pieces, this golem can be kept from regenerating only by mixing the ashes with holy water: When totally destroyed, each fragment of the golem will flash into a brightly burning flame and collapse into ash. This ash, though, can very slowly repair damage to itself, reforming completely from a mere speck unless each ash pile is mixed with holy water and scattered. From the merest dust to full form it returns in a months time.

The terrible keening is a weapon that can be used once each day. Any creature within 80’ of the golem must save versus breath weapon or be affected with fear, as by the wand of the same name. When this creation attacks with its powerful fists, each successful strike showers its opponent with glowing cinders. In addition to the buffeting damage, these cinders continue to burn for one point of damage per round for each shower of cinders until doused with water or earth. Unless magically protected from fire, any opponent so covered will also be affected as though by a symbol of pain for 2-20 minutes. Such effects are not cumulative except for damage; the maximum Dexterity penalty is -2, but an opponent struck twice would continue taking an additional two points of damage per round until doused.

These crude, unintelligent creatures attack almost without strategy. They are best used on the battlefield where their awesome presence can do the most good as they wade into masses of troops. They will usually use their keening ability two rounds after a combat starts. They are too stupid to be affected by illusions, and have no sense of self preservation. Because of the heat they generate, it is rare to find any of them put to use in a noncombat role.

When they are engaged in a task (see below) their Morale is very great (Fearless 20). When they have broken the control from their lords, their Morale is normal (Steady 12), but all of their actions are based on their own desires.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #209 (1994).

*Golem, Burning Man*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 14 (60 hit points)
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8/2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Keening, cinder shower
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapons to hit; immune to fire, lightning, and illusions; regeneration
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (18' tall)
MORALE: Variable (see below)
XP VALUE: 10,000

The “burning man” is a golem that appears as a humanoid figure made of glowing red coals covered in white-hot cinders. It radiates waves of heat, and can set fire to flammable materials with a touch.  When it strikes with its fists, burning cinders shower from its body; these remain and continue to burn until washed away.

Combat:  This crude, unintelligent creature attacks almost without strategy. It is best used on the battlefield where its awesome presence can do the most good as it wades into masses of enemy troops. Because of the heat it generates, this construct is rarely found in a noncombat role.

The golem can use a terrible keening attack once each day. Any creature within 80 feet of the golem must save vs. breath weapon or be affected with fear, as by the wand of fear. The golem will usually use its keening ability two rounds after a combat starts.

When the golem attacks with its powerful fists, each successful strike creates a cinder shower that covers its opponent with glowing cinders. These cinders continue to burn for one 1 hit point of damage per round for each shower until doused with water or earth. Unless magically protected from fire, any foe so showered will also be affected as though by a symbol of pain for 2d10 rounds (-4 to attack rolls and -2 to Dexterity). Shower effects are not cumulative except for damage; the maximum Dexterity penalty is -2, but an opponent struck twice would take 2 additional points of damage per round until doused.

A magical weapon of +2 or better enchantment is needed to damage this construct. The golem is impervious to fire- or lightning-based attacks, and illusions. The spell quench fire (reversed 4th level priest spell produce fire) extinguishes the cinders and reduces the golem’s armor class to AC 6; this lasts one round per experience level of the caster.  

The golem regenerates at the rate of one point each turn. When reduced to 0 hit points, each fragment of the golem will flash into a brightly burning flame and collapse into ash. This ash very slowly regenerates, reforming the golem completely from as little as a mere speck unless each ash pile is mixed with holy water and scattered. Regeneration from the merest dust to full form requires a month’s time.  Each time it regenerates there is a 1% cumulative chance it breaks free of its creator’s control.

It has no sense of self-preservation; when engaged in a task the golem’s morale rating is Fearless (20). When they have broken the control from their lords, their Morale is Steady (12), but all of their actions are based on their own desires.

Habitat/Society:  Although this is a mighty creation and a powerful servant, extreme care and long thought should be taken before deciding to create one. The fiery nature of this creation fills it with a lust to burn and destroy--even its maker. It is compelled to obedience, but only to the letter of the command. It seeks to pervert the spirit of any command and is for most uses unreliable. 

Ecology:  This golem requires three months of construction time by a wizard of 14th or higher level; it costs 60,000 gold pieces. Construction is begun by fashioning a giant man-shaped wicker container, which is filled with pitch.  On this form the wizard casts burning sphere, animate object, fire shield, wish, and geas. 

This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


I did a conversion of this way back in April, 2002 here.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2010)

Well, you seem to have the basics already!


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

I originally made it mindless, but I notice the original was semi-intelligent, which would allow it to gain a few skills and feats.   Set Int to 3?

Also, the keening should be Cha-based, while I seem to have given it a static DC of 15.   Should we boost Cha to 10 (and thus the DC would be 17)?


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I originally made it mindless, but I notice the original was semi-intelligent, which would allow it to gain a few skills and feats.   Set Int to 3?
> 
> Also, the keening should be Cha-based, while I seem to have given it a static DC of 15.   Should we boost Cha to 10 (and thus the DC would be 17)?




Intelligence 3 is fine by me. I would be OK giving it a higher Cha (12-15 or so, say) and justify it by saying it's a very impressive looking monster.

The stats you've already got look a fine beginning.

I think I'd give it Fast Healing to represent the original's regeneration, say 3 hit points per round?

I also can't help thinking that if it's a red-hot pile of coals spitting white-hot sparks it could add a bit of fire damage to its slam attacks - maybe 1d6 like a salamander?

If you think that boosts the damage too much we can reduce the basic slam damage - e.g. slam (2d8+7 plus 1d6 fire), which is only 1.5 points higher than your earlier conversion's 2d10+7.

EDIT: Actually, scrub that idea - it already does fire damage from its cinder cloud, so giving it +1d6 fire would be gilding the lily.

Speaking of that Cinder Cloud, the original implies the cinders burn forever unless extinguished. Should we add a duration (say 1 minute like a Vrocks spores)?

EDIT: Oh, we also need to replace the original's damage reduction 30/+2. Since it is harmed by "scattering its ashes", how about DR/magic and bludgeoning?


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I originally made it mindless, but I notice the original was semi-intelligent, which would allow it to gain a few skills and feats.   Set Int to 3?




As for skills and feats.

Maybe max out Intimidate, since it has an "Awesome Presence"? We could also give it a few points in Spot and Listen for its skills, the better to find its enemies/victims with.

17 SP -> 13 Intimidate, 2 Listen, 2 Spot?

For the feats, they should be mostly combat-oriented since that appears to be its raison d'être.

Ability Focus (keening), Improved Overrun, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) would be useful and straightforward combination but strikes me as a bit dull. I'd welcome any suggested alternatives to jazz it up a bit.


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## freyar (Mar 2, 2010)

Cleon's skills seem reasonable.  I want to think about the feats later.

Not sure I'd go with fast healing, since 1/turn is quite slow compared to 1/round.  But fast healing would be interesting.  I definitely like rejuvenation.

I also have the feeling that Burn (like fire elemental) would be a standard 3e way of handling the cinder shower.  But I can go with what Shade's got already, too.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cleon's skills seem reasonable.  I want to think about the feats later.




Waiting on the feats is OK by me.



freyar said:


> Not sure I'd go with fast healing, since 1/turn is quite slow compared to 1/round.  But fast healing would be interesting.  I definitely like rejuvenation.




1/round is fine by me. Fast healing / regenerating creatures generally do so a lot faster under 3E.



freyar said:


> I also have the feeling that Burn (like fire elemental) would be a standard 3e way of handling the cinder shower.  But I can go with what Shade's got already, too.




Either would suit me, but I'm leaning towards Shade's "clinging red-hot cinders" approach, since that matches the original description better.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2010)

This looks pretty good to me.  Any other special abilities to add?


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> This looks pretty good to me.  Any other special abilities to add?




Well the description says the burning man "can set fire to flammable materials with a touch", we could do something with that, maybe a "Fiery Touch" special attack?
*Fiery Touch (Su):* A burning man can do *X* fire damage with a melee touch attack, igniting any flammable material it touches.​ All it needs is a damage. We'd better set it pretty low, so its usual slam attacks are a much better option in melee. 3d6 fire?

Oh, I also would prefer the Quench Vulnerability description to be a bit more explicit. Does it stop the golem using its Cinder Shower for the duration? If so, we'd need something like:
*Quench Vulnerability (Ex):* A _quench_ spell extinguishes the burning man's red-hot cinders for one round per caster level. During this time the golem loses its Cinder Shower special attack and has its Armor Class reduced by 2.​What do you reckon?


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well the description says the burning man "can set fire to flammable materials with a touch", we could do something with that, maybe a "Fiery Touch" special attack?
> *Fiery Touch (Su):* A burning man can do *X* fire damage with a melee touch attack, igniting any flammable material it touches.​ All it needs is a damage. We'd better set it pretty low, so its usual slam attacks are a much better option in melee. 3d6 fire?



See, this just makes me think we should go with Burn even more.  At the very least, just combine it with the Cinder Shower, saying that the fire damage ignites flammable objects.



> Oh, I also would prefer the Quench Vulnerability description to be a bit more explicit. Does it stop the golem using its Cinder Shower for the duration? If so, we'd need something like:
> *Quench Vulnerability (Ex):* A _quench_ spell extinguishes the burning man's red-hot cinders for one round per caster level. During this time the golem loses its Cinder Shower special attack and has its Armor Class reduced by 2.​What do you reckon?




That seems reasonable.  But shouldn't it be part of Magic Immunity as in other golems?

BTW, there's a nyraala golem in the flavor text.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

You've convinced me to add burn.     I gave it burn damage equivalent to a fire elemental of the same size.  Does that work?

Immunity to magic doesn't really work, though, as it isn't immune to most forms of magic.  Cleon's suggested revision appeals, however.

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

Wait, now it has burn *and* cinder shower.  That's just too much -- let's pick one and have that handle all the fire effects.  

I guess you're right about immunity to magic; I was reading it a little too quickly before.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

I'd prefer to keep cinder shower, as it seems the creature's defining characteristics.

Suggested revision to blend the two?


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

How about this?

Cinder Shower (Ex): When the burning man attacks with its powerful fists, each successful strike creates a cinder shower that covers its opponent with glowing cinders. These cinders continue to burn for 1 minute or until doused with water or earth. Unless magically protected from fire, any foe so showered takes 1 point of damage per round for each shower and suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, as well as a -2 penalty to Dexterity, for 2d10 rounds. Shower effects are not cumulative except for damage; the maximum Dexterity penalty is -2, but an opponent struck twice would take 2 additional points of damage per round until doused.  Any creature or flammable object that takes fire damage from the cinders must make a DC X Ref save or catch fire; the fire burns for 1d4 rounds if not extinguished.  The save DC is X-based.

Not sure what to base the DC on, maybe Str.  Con is the natural choice, but of course this is a Construct.


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about this?
> 
> Cinder Shower (Ex): When the burning man attacks with its powerful fists, each successful strike creates a cinder shower that covers its opponent with glowing cinders. These cinders continue to burn for 1 minute or until doused with water or earth. Unless magically protected from fire, any foe so showered takes 1 point of damage per round for each shower and suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, as well as a -2 penalty to Dexterity, for 2d10 rounds. Shower effects are not cumulative except for damage; the maximum Dexterity penalty is -2, but an opponent struck twice would take 2 additional points of damage per round until doused.  Any creature or flammable object that takes fire damage from the cinders must make a DC X Ref save or catch fire; the fire burns for 1d4 rounds if not extinguished.  The save DC is X-based.
> 
> Not sure what to base the DC on, maybe Str.  Con is the natural choice, but of course this is a Construct.




I'd make it Charisma-based. It reads more like a Supernatural pain-causing damage than a mundane cinder.

Still prefer to drop burn in favour of an "ignition touch", since it's a better match to the description.

Something tells me this may be a long argument: To Burn or not To Burn, that is the Question!


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2010)

Freyar's writeup looks good, except I'd clarify that it is fire damage.  In fact, I'm not sure if we need the "Unless magically protected by fire" text.  Instead, perhaps it should read:

"Any foe so showered takes 1 point of fire damage per round.  A victim damaged by the shower also suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, as well as a -2 penalty to Dexterity, for 2d10 rounds."

I agree with Cleon that Cha-based seems the most appropriate in this case.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

Yeah, the point of that write-up was to drop burn.

Cha-based makes enough sense to me, though I still think it seems Ex, and I like Shade's revisions.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2010)

Updated.

DR 10?



> The fiery nature of this creation fills it with a lust to burn and destroy--even its maker.






> These crude, unintelligent creatures attack almost without strategy.






> It has no sense of self-preservation.




Feats: 5
Improved Critical (slam), Power Attack, Reckless Offense, Stand Still, Weapon Focus (slam)?

A burning man stands 18 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

DR 10 and those feats work.  Since it's just made of wicker and lit pitch, it might be somewhat light.  5000 or 10000 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2010)

Yeah, I'd imagine the low end of that range.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> DR 10?
> 
> ...




Damage Reduction 10's good.

I like the use of Reckless Offense and Stand Still from the Psionics SRD, I keep on forgetting about those General feats.



freyar said:


> DR 10 and those feats work.  Since it's just made  of wicker and lit pitch, it might be somewhat light.  5000 or 10000  lb?
> 
> 
> Shade said:
> ...




I agree.

5,000 pounds at 18-foot tall is the equivalent of 185 pounds at 6-foot tall, so it feels about right. I imagine these things are considerably bulkier in shape than a human, so their density is probably a fair bit lower.

It looks like we've only got Challenge Rating & Construction left, plus the flavour & tactics text.

A Burning Man has got a lot lower AC than a Stone Golem and isn't as resistant to magic, but it does about as much damage, has feats and can auto-heal and rejuvenate itself.

I'm thinking they're roughly equal challenges, so the Burning Man should be CR 11 or 10.

Let's say 10, since it's vulnerable to cold and quenching.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2010)

CR 10 is certainly reasonable.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

CR 10 works.



> This golem requires three months of construction time by a wizard of 14th or higher level; it costs 60,000 gold pieces. Construction is begun by fashioning a giant man-shaped wicker container, which is filled with pitch.  On this form the wizard casts burning sphere, animate object, fire shield, wish, and geas.






> Tukah began by fashioning a giant man-shaped wicker container, which he filled with pitch. On this form the wizard cast burning sphere, true name, fire shield, wish, and geas.


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2010)

The materials and spells look reasonable, though I guess I'd go with the more popular and lower level limited wish rather than wish.  Any other thoughts?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Agreed.  So animate objects, fire shield, flaming sphere, geas/quest, and limited wish?


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> The materials and spells look reasonable, though I guess I'd go with the more popular and lower level limited wish rather than wish.  Any other thoughts?




We could drop _wish_ (or _limited wish_) altogether and add _incendiary cloud_ as a prerequisite.

Also, 60,000 gp seems a bit pricey to construct a golem that's made out of wicker and tar, that's 10,000 gp more than the SRD Stone Golem costs to build.

Maybe the 60,000 gp is the total price of a Burning Man?

How about its creation requires rare oils and naptha compounds costing 2,000 gp?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Yes, I believe the 60,000 gp is the total price.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2010)

Those costing guidelines sound right.  I could go either way with incendiary cloud vs limited wish, I guess, though I slightly prefer the 7th level spell vs the 8th level one.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Summarizing...

*Construction*
A burning man's body is sculpted from x pounds of wicker and pitch, treated with rare oils and naptha compounds costing at least 2,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (weaving) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, animate objects, fire shield, flaming sphere, geas/quest, and limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 60,000 gp; Cost 32,000 gp + 2,320 XP.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Summarizing...
> 
> *Construction*
> A burning man's body is sculpted from x pounds of wicker and pitch, treated with rare oils and naptha compounds costing at least 2,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (weaving) check.
> ...




Shouldn't the cost be 31,000? (60000-2000 = 58000, halved to 29000, add 2000)

The Craft DC may be a bit high too, since a Stone Golem is Craft DC17 and has a higher CR (but lower CL).

I'd prefer a Craft DC around 16-18.

Guess the weight of ingredients should be around 5000 pounds, to match the golem's mass.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

That's reasonable.  Updated.  Anything left?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2010)

Looks pretty done!


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's reasonable.  Updated.  Anything left?




Looks pretty well finished to me.

It's got "Construction" twice near the end, but that's merely a typo.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Continuing the undersea theme...

*Sea Demon, Greater*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 15”//21”
HIT DICE: 16+16
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. OF ATTACKS: 11
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10(x10), 5-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil 
SIZE: L (40’ tentacles) 
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil 
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil 
//Experience Point Value: 10600 + 20/HP 

*Sea Demon, Lesser*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 12”//18”
MOVE: 12 + 12
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. OF ATTACKS: 9
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8(x8), 5-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
SIZE: L (30’ tentacles)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
//Experience Point Value: 4950 + 16/HP

Sea Demons resemble Giant Octopi, but are much larger.  They have 12 (10 for Lesser Sea Demon) tentacles averaging 40 (30) feet long. Sea Demons may lair on land or in the sea, but they usually prefer the sea. If on land, they prefer a humid climate, sub-tropical or tropical, but they can also be found in the desert, with their lair below the water table. If in the sea, they will lair on the bottom, preferring depths below 1,000 feet. Sea Demons will always be found alone, since they hate all other life, especially other Sea Demons.

While on land, a Sea Demon will use half of its tentacles to move and the other half to fight with. The striking tentacle of a Sea Demon does 1-10 (1-8) hit points of damage. Each round after the initial hit, the creature will have its prey captured within the tentacle, and double damage will be taken, 2-20 (2-16), each round thereafter unless the tentacle is severed or loosened. 

The tentacles grip with a strength of 18/91 (18/76). If the creature being crushed is as strong or stronger, it can negate the crushing damage, but it will not be free of the tentacle. Two rounds after the tentacle has hit, the Sea Demon will drag its victim to its great beak, which does 5-30 (5-20) hit points of damage.

While in the sea, there is a good chance that a Sea Demon will attack ships passing close to its lair. Multiply the surface distance, in miles, from the ship to the lair by 20% to get the percentage that the creature will not attack the passing ship. After detecting and deciding to attack a ship, the Sea Demon takes 2 turns to get to a shallow depth, and 2-12 turns (depending on the distance) to catch up with the ship. Any ship seized by a Sea Demon will come to a full stop in one turn. The creature will then attempt to sink the ship, attacking whatever or whoever is aboard if the prey happens to get within reach of a tentacle.

As long as six tentacles can grasp the ship, the Sea Demon will damage the ship at the rate of 4 (3) structural points per melee round. If 5 (4) or more tentacles are severed (each tentacle will take 20 (16) hit points of damage over and above the Sea Demon’s regular hit points), the creature will retreat to 500 feet below the ship, or to halfway between the bottom and the keel if the sea is too shallow. It will then begin spinning, causing a giant whirlpool to form under the ship; this takes one turn. Once a ship is caught in the whirlpool, it will be destroyed in five turns. To escape the whirlpool, a saving throw must be made with percentile dice. The number of the ship’s remaining structural points is multiplied by two and becomes the number needed to save. For example, if a galley has 39 remaining points, to escape the whirlpool a 78 or less must be thrown. This is assuming that the galley has oars left to row with, and a crew to man them, and that sailing ships still have sails and a wind to fill them.

If the ship escapes the whirlpool, the Sea Demon will not attempt to pursue, because it needs to spend at least one day recovering from the exertion of creating the whirlpool, but the Sea Demon will be certain to sense the same ship if it comes within 10 miles of its lair on a later day, and will attempt to destroy it again. If the Sea Demon has lost more than half of its tentacles, it will not be able to create the whirlpool. Sea Demons will regenerate lost tentacles at the rate of 4 (3) feet per tentacle per week. Sea Demons will not attack passing ships if their wounded tentacles are less than half healed.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #48 (1981).


*Sea Demon, Lesser*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical ocean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE:  Nil (D)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
No. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 6, Sw 15
HIT DICE: 12+12
THAC0: 9
No. of ATTACKS: 9 (5 on land)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8x10/5d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, whirlpool
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Ink
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
SIZE: H (30' tentacles)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 9,000

The sea demon resembles a giant octopus, but are much larger.  The smaller version of the sea demon has ten tentacles, averaging 30 feet long, and a body diameter of 15 to 18 feet. 

Combat:  On land, the sea demon attacks with half its tentacles, slithering along the ground upon the rest.  At sea, two tentacles anchor the creature, while the rest attack.  The initial tentacle attack inflicts 1d8 points of damage. No attack roll is required thereafter, the tentacle constricts for 2d8 points of damage per round.  Two rounds after prey has been seized, it is dragged to the creature’s great beak, which inflicts 5d4 points of damage.

A tentacle grips with a strength equivalent of 18/76; a creature with at least this Strength can avoid the crushing damage, but it will not be free of the tentacle. A tentacle can take 12 points of slashing damage before being severed; damage to its tentacles does not count against the sea demon’s hit points.  If half the attacking tentacles are severed or incapacitated, the sea demon withdraws.  In water, it discharges an inky cloud that fills a volume of 40x60x60 feet.  All within are blinded while they remain within the cloud and for 1d4 rounds after they emerge; the cloud also deadens sound- and pressure-sensing organs os they are useless for 2d4 turns..

The sea demon attacks ships that venture too close to its lair. (Multiply the surface distance in miles from the ship to the lair by 20% for the chance the ship will not be attacked). The sea demon takes 2 turns to get to a shallow depth, then 2-12 turns, depending on the distance, to catch the ship. 

Any ship seized by the sea demon comes to a stop in one turn. The creature will try to sink the ship, attacking whatever prey comes within tentacle reach.  As long as six tentacles grasp the ship, the sea demon can reduce its seaworthiness by 2-8% per round (2d4).  If four or more tentacles are severed (but no more than half the total number of tentacles), the sea demon retreats to 500 feet below the ship (or half the distance to the bottom in shallower water). It then begins  to spin; after one turn, a giant whirlpool forms.  Unless the ship is mobile and attempts immediate flight before the whirlpool forms, it will be caught in the whirlpool for 1d4 turns before it can try to escape.  Escape requires the ship to be able to move—enough oars and crew to man them or sails and wind to fill them—and a successful seaworthiness check.  A failure to escape means the ship is destroyed.  The sea demon cannot maintain the whirlpool for more than five turns, nor will it pursue after creating one, for it must rest a full day.  The sea demon will recognize an escaped ship on a later day; it can sense such a ship up to 10 miles away (double the normal distance), and will immediately attack and try to destroy it.

Habitat/Society:  The sea demon may be encountered at sea or in coastal areas.  Its lair is usually in the sea, but may be on landif the climate is humid and either subtropical or tropical.  It will nearly always be found alone, for it hates all other life, especially other sea demons.  The creature is 80% likely to be in or near its lair when encountered.

A sea demon that has lost tentacles can regenerate them at a rate of 3 feet per tentacle per week.  A sea demon will nto attack a ship if its wounded tentacles are less than half healed.

Ecology:  The sea demon eats whatever it can catch, preying mainly on giant marine life, small whales, and the like.  It may come ashore to hunt, especially if the food in the surrounding seas has been depleted.  Perhaps sea demons first attacked ships because aship’s hull somewhat resembles a whale when viewed from below, but the creatures have learned that ship crews are prey, also.

*Sea Demon, Greater*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical ocean depths
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE:  Nil (H)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
No. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 6, Sw 18
HIT DICE: 16+16
THAC0: 5
No. of ATTACKS: 11 (6 on land)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10x10/5d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, whirlpool
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Ink
MAGIC RESISTANCE:30%
SIZE: H (40' tentacles)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 15,000

This creature is in most ways similar to its smaller cousin, but has twelve tentacles (ten of which it uses to attack).  It is larger, having a diameter of 20 to 25 feet and its tentacles grow to 40 feet in length.  A greater sea demon is found mainly in the deeps; its lair is nearly always below a depth of 1,000 feet.

A greater sea demon tentacle has an effective strength of 18/91, and requires 20 points of damage to sever.  Its beak inflicts  5d6 points of damage, and is strong enough to crush coral, or crack the shell of a giant clam.  The creature can reduce a ship’s seaworthiness by 4-16% per round (4d4) and crush small boats with ease.  Severed tentacles regrow at the rate of four feet per tentacle per week.  Its cloud measures 60x80x80 feet.

Note:  If the optional ship damage system from Ships and the See is used, the lesser sea demon inflicts 1d4 points of hull damage per round, and the greater sea demon inflicts 2d4.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998).


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

So, I'm thinking that in 3E terms the Greater Sea Demon is just a standard Sea Demon that has been Advanced a size category? We can add a note they gain more tentacles as they grow.

The Lesser Sea Demon is basically just a tougher, amphibious, intelligent and spell-resistant Giant Squid with a whirlpool special attack - we can use the Water Elemental's Vortex special attack for that.

We could take a Kraken and downsize it for the abilities, if we want to make it tougher.

Huge Kraken: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 20
Giant Squid: Str 26, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Hmm, if we average those two we get the following:

Huant Kraquid: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 11

That looks pretty good, shall we use it for the Sea Demon?


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So, I'm thinking that in 3E terms the Greater Sea Demon is just a standard Sea Demon that has been Advanced a size category? We can add a note they gain more tentacles as they grow.




My thoughts exactly.



Cleon said:


> The Lesser Sea Demon is basically just a tougher, amphibious, intelligent and spell-resistant Giant Squid with a whirlpool special attack - we can use the Water Elemental's Vortex special attack for that.




It's an octopus, not a squid, though.

Still, those ability scores might work.


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Squid, octopus, what's the difference? 

The giant octopus is not as good physically as the giant squid, which would argue for lower stats.  OTOH, these sound pretty fearsome, so I like the tougher stats Cleon's proposed.

A little more basic: magical beast or outsider (maybe native)?  I lean toward outsider, I think.


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

I was thinking magical beast.  If it weren't for the Intelligence, I'd almost argue for animal.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's an octopus, not a squid, though.




Well a Vampyroteuthis is neither octopus nor squid, it has an Order of its Own (Vampyromorphida) although it's closer to the octopi than the squids (Teuthida).

EDIT: Hold on, what am I talking about? This is the Sea Demon thread, not the Vampire Squid thread!

Regardless, I think they need the tougher stats of the Squid/Kraken cross, since these things seem tough customers.

As for type, I'm voting Magical Beast like a Kraken. There's little to suggest the "Demon" is anything more than a reference to their nasty disposition, so I'm not seeing Outsider here.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

OK, here's a rough draft. It's basically a downsized kraken with a modified water elemental's Vortex attack bolted on:

*Sea Demon*
Huge Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 12d10+48 (114 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 10 ft., swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+28
Attack: Tentacle +18 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: 6 tentacles +18 melee (1d8+8) and bite +13 melee (3d6+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+8, crushing embrace, improved grab, vortex 
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, spell resistance CR+6?, water dependent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +7
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 11
Skills: 30 Climb +16, Escape Artist +, Hide +, Listen +, Spot +, Survival + (+), Swim +16
Feats: 5
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil? Always evil, usually chaotic?
Advancement: 13-15 HD (Huge); 16-36 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

*Combat*
An opponent can attack a sea demon's tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A sea demon's tentacles have 10 hit points each (20 hit points for a Gargantuan sea demon). If a sea demon is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a sea demon's tentacles deals 5 points of damage to the creature. A sea demon usually withdraws from combat if it loses four tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

*Constrict (Ex):* A sea demon deals 1d8+8 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a sea demon must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

*Ink Cloud (Ex):* A sea demon can emit a cloud of jet-black ink in a 60 foot spread (80 feet for a Gargantuan sea demon) once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the sea demon normally uses to escape a losing fight. All vision within the cloud is obscured.

*Jet (Ex):* A sea demon can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 200 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

*Vortex (Su):* Once every 10 minutes, a sea demon can use its tentacles to stir the sea into a whirlpool. The sea demon must be underwater to create a vortex. It can sustain a vortex for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. The sea demon can move through the water or along the bottom at its swim speed while creating a vortex. The vortex is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and up to 50 feet tall (60 feet for a Gargantuan sea demon). The sea demon controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.

The sea demon's movement while it uses its vortex attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Another creature might be caught in the vortex if it touches or enters the vortex, or if the sea demon moves into or through the creature's space.

Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the sea demon might take damage when caught in the vortex, and may be swept up by it. An affected creature must succeed on a DC24 Reflex save when it comes into contact with the vortex or take 2d8 bludgeoning damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful currents, automatically taking damage each round. An affected creature is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the vortex. The creature still takes damage, but can leave if the save is successful. The save DC is Strength-based.

Creatures trapped in the vortex cannot move except to go where the sea demon carries them or to escape the whirlpool. Creatures caught in the whirlpool can otherwise act normally, but must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the vortex take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The sea demon can have only as many creatures trapped inside the vortex at one time as will fit inside the vortex's volume.

The sea demon can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the vortex happens to be.

If the vortex's base touches the bottom, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the sea demon and has a diameter equal to half the vortex's height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.

Those caught in the cloud must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.

A sea demon cannot use any other attack while it is creating a vortex and does not threaten the area around it.

*Water Dependent (Ex):* Sea demons can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).

*Skills:* A sea demon can change colors, giving it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A sea demon also can squeeze and contort its body, giving it a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks. A sea demon has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. A sea demon also has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks, and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

I think we should also do something with the following:



> _*MCA4*_
> Any ship seized by the sea demon comes to a stop in one turn. The creature will try to sink the ship, attacking whatever prey comes within tentacle reach. As long as six tentacles grasp the ship, the sea demon can reduce its seaworthiness by 2-8% per round (2d4). If four or more tentacles are severed (but no more than half the total number of tentacles), the sea demon retreats to 500 feet below the ship (or half the distance to the bottom in shallower water).
> 
> _*Dragon #48*_
> ...



I fancy something like the following, based on a repurposed Ramming special attack.

There's a bit of inconsistency in the number of tentacles the sea demon needs for this attack in the original description - it starts out saying 6, but then says it can crush ships if it has lost half its tentacles.

Should we change the relevant passage to "A sea demon must use at least six tentacles" or "a sea demon must use more than half its tentacles (five or more for a Huge sea demon, six or more for a Gargantuan one)" ?*Crushing Embrace (Ex):* As a standard action, a sea demon can wrap its limbs around a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This attack deals 2d8+12 points of damage if the sea demon makes a successful grapple check, and 1d8+8 damage if it fails. A sea demon must use at least half its tentacles (four for a typical sea demon) to make a crushing embrace, it can not use tentacles that are grappling other targets. The sea demon can maintain its hold on any other creature or object it is grappling, but can not use its constrict attack against other targets while making a crushing embrace.

If a ship is the target of a crushing embrace, the sea demon can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel embraced, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.
​


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Oh, and what spell resistance are we giving them?

According to the guidelines Shade favours so, a Lesser Sea Demon's 15% Magic Resistance is CR+4, a Greater's 30% is CR+7.

Spell Resistance = Challenge Rating + 6 ?

EDIT: I've decided I like CR+6 so have red-pencilled it into my current draft.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Sea demons can move around on land, and may even make their lairs their "if the climate is humid and either subtropical or tropical" and "they can also be found in the desert, with their lair below the water table".

That suggests either the Amphibious SQ or Water Dependent à la the Sahuagin.

The humidity preference leads me to prefer Water Dependent. I'll red-pencil that in as well.


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

I also prefer water dependent.

Since we decided that the greater is just an advanced version, I think we should stick to SR=CR+4 for the basic stats.

Did the 1e/2e kraken also have the ability to grab onto/smash ships?  If not, I can see adding the crushing embrace, but I hesitate to add something a kraken can't do unless it's clear that was the original intent.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I also prefer water dependent.
> 
> Since we decided that the greater is just an advanced version, I think we should stick to SR=CR+4 for the basic stats.
> 
> Did the 1e/2e kraken also have the ability to grab onto/smash ships?  If not, I can see adding the crushing embrace, but I hesitate to add something a kraken can't do unless it's clear that was the original intent.




Both Kraken and Giant Squids could drag ships to the bottom in AD&D, here's the relevant bits from the 2E Monstrous Manual:



> A giant squid can drag ships of small size to the bottom and can halt the movement of larger ones in one turn of dragging. After six or more tentacles have squeezed the hull of the ship for three consecutive rounds, the vessel suffers damage as if it had been rammed and it begins to take on water and sink.
> 
> Krakens can drag ships of 60 feet long down in the same way as normal giant squids attack.




Compared to the Sea Demon that's a similar number of tentacles in an attack that causes a hull breach and sinking, except with a fixed onset time of 3 rounds instead of a random roll.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

In that case, I don't think I'd add this ability to the sea demon.  They don't seem like they should be able to attack ships in a "better" way than kraken can.


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

Agreed.  Let's not out-kraken the kraken.

Any SR in the CR+4 to CR+6 range works for me.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Let's not out-kraken the kraken.




Well I'd rather the Kraken still had its ability to crush ships in its coils, but we can't have everything we want eh...

...(except in homebrew rules. 



Shade said:


> Any SR in the CR+4 to CR+6 range works for me.




I still prefer CR+6 for the spell resistance.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 30
Giant octopi have ranks in Hide, Listen, and Spot

Feats: 5
Giant octopi have Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

10 ranks in each of those skills is good.

Ugh.  Let's drop SF (Hide) and definitely Toughness.  From the kraken, I like taking Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will for the last 4 feats.


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## Cleon (May 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> 10 ranks in each of those skills is good.
> 
> Ugh.  Let's drop SF (Hide) and definitely Toughness.  From the kraken, I like taking Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will for the last 4 feats.




I agree about the skill rank distribution but aren't that fond of some of the feat proposals.

I'd rather have Combat Reflexes to Improved Critical (tentacle) and I don't like Improved Trip for them. (Besides, it'd need Combat Expertise to qualify for Improved Trip, which it doesn't have). I fancy replacing it with something, but haven't any strong preferences what. Maybe Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack or Weapon Focus (tentacles)?

So, I like:

*Feats:* Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Iron  Will plus one other


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

Those and Power Attack would be fine.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those and Power Attack would be fine.




Okay by me:

*Feats:* Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative,  Iron  Will, Power Attack


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd rather have Improved Critical than Iron Will, but can live with it.

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd rather have Improved Critical than Iron Will, but can live with it.
> 
> Updated.



Hmmm, so would I.  Care to change it?

CR 8 or 9 maybe?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Let's do it!

Updated.

I might lean toward CR 9 due to the number of attacks.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

CR 9 it is.  Though the kraken is only CR 12 (seems maybe too low).

If Cleon will provide a size, I think it's done.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Size 'em up, Cleon.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Don't much like Improved Critical for them, maybe Blind-Fight instead since you don't fancy Iron Will?


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Size 'em up, Cleon.




Let's see:

Giant Squid (Huge): "These voracious creatures can have bodies more than 20 feet long"

Giant Octopus (Large): "These creatures are aggressive and territorial hunters, with arms  reaching 10 feet or more in length. Their tentacles are studded with  barbs and sharp-edged suckers."

Kraken (Gargantuan): "Six of the beast’s tentacles are shorter arms about 30 feet long; the  remaining two are nearly 60 feet long and covered with barbs. Its  beaklike mouth is located where the tentacles meet the lower portion of  its body."

Hmm... how about:

Sea Demon: "These creatures are aggressive and territorial hunters with bodies at least 10 feet in diameter. Their tentacles are studded with  barbs and sharp-edged suckers and reach 30 feet or more in length."


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.

We used Blind-Fight for the vampire squid, so let's stick with Improved Crit here.  Our love for it is twice as strong as your dislike.  

Anything left?  Do we need an underbar for greater sea demons, or will standard advancement rules suffice?


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We used Blind-Fight for the vampire squid, so let's stick with Improved Crit here.  Our love for it is twice as strong as your dislike.
> 
> Anything left?  Do we need an underbar for greater sea demons, or will standard advancement rules suffice?




We might need an underbar because they get more tentacle attacks.

*Greater Sea Demons*
A sea demon that has advanced to Gargantuan size has twelve tentacles  with 20 hit points each and can make 10 tentacle attacks as part of a  full attack.

Hold on! I just noticed we've forgotten to change the standard sea demon's number of tentacles from an octopus. They have 10 tentacles and 8 attacks, not 8 and 6...

Hmm, we can do without an underbar if we modify the full attack and combat entries so:

*Full Attack:* 8 tentacles +18 melee (1d8+8/19-20) and bite +13 melee  (3d6+4)

*Combat*
An opponent can attack a sea demon's tentacles with a sunder attempt as  if they were weapons. A sea demon has 10 tentacles with 10 hit points each (Gargantuan sea demons have 12 tentacles with 20 hit points each and can make 10 tentacle attacks as part of a  full attack). If a sea demon is currently  grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually  uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent  making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a sea demon's tentacles  deals 5 points of damage to the creature. A sea demon usually withdraws  from combat if it loses four tentacles. The creature regrows severed  limbs in 1d10+10 days.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

The latter option appeals.

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Next?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

How about the Gorbel from the Fiend Folio Monstrous Compendium?

That weird little fellow doesn't seem to be in the Creature Catalog.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

The gorbel is in the _Tome of Horrors_.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> The gorbel is in the _Tome of Horrors_.




If you're referring to the Necromancer Games book I don't see why that means we can't do our own conversion.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

Cleon said:


> If you're referring to the Necromancer Games book I don't see why that means we can't do our own conversion.




Because Scott Greene created the Creature Catalogue, and then created the Tome of Horrors.  We have a long-standing agreement not to "double dip".  Essentially, the Tome of Horrors is the Creature Catalogue in print form (at least up to a certain point in time).

You'll notice some overlap, mostly with 3e converstion that predated the ToH, and later made it into that book.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

*Marl*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate or tropical swamps and rivers
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to Very (8-12)
TREASURE: R
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 6, Sw 24
HIT DICE: 10
THACO: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 to 8
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  ld2+4 each or by weapon +4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to charms, mental attacks, and psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (40' long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE 6,000

Marls are giant aquatic snakelike creatures with hoods like those of cobras. Three to eight arms sprout from a marl's long body each about 3 feet long and ending in a hand like that of a human. These creatures are usually brown, with white underbellies, though those that live in especially verdant swamp often have green splotches. Their arms have the same colors as their bodies, and are covered in fine scales. 

Marls, sometimes called slime devils, can be found in the wild, in swamps or along rivers. They are often willing to serve as guardians or mercenaries, especially for snake-like creatures such as yuan-ti or ophidians. A marl usually speaks the language most common to its home region.

Combat: Marls are immensely strong and very aggressive. They float in water until prey gets very close, then attempt to strike with surprise. There is one exception: marls become frenzied at the sight of any type of bird, attacking without planning, ignoring morale and attacking until all birds in sight are dead, or until slain themselves.

Mark never attack with a bite, instead using their fists. A marl has ld6+2 arms, each of which ends in a hand that can make a fist, ranged along its body. On occasion, marls use weapons, usually improvised clubs, but sometimes weapons from previous victims. Marl mercenaries are often given good weapons by their employers. Wild marls never use missile weapons, though they can be taught how to use them by a patient instructor.

Marls receive a bonus of +4 damage to each of their melee attacks, armed or unarmed, as listed above, because of their great strength. A marl can attack several opponents at the same time, if they are ranged along the creatrue's length; the marl's body is supple enough that it can quickly whip around to bring more arms to bear against  several opponents clustered at its head.

A marl can also constrict an opponent. To do so, it must first grab the opponent with at least one hand; this requires a normal attack roll and causes no damage. The creature must then make a second attack roll in the same round; if this succeeds, the marl wraps one or more coils of its body around the victim, constricting for 6d6 points of damage per round until the victim is freed or killed.  A victim can get loose by making a successful bend bars/lift gates roll, with a -20% to normal chances.  A marl can make no other attacks in the first round of constriction, but can thereafter use all or most of its arms to attack opponents, depending on where those opponents are.

Marls are immune to mental attack, including psionic attack, as well as charm spells of all types.  ESP and similar spells are ineffective on marls.

Habitat/Society: Marls have no real culture of their own. Though a few of them might be found in the same area, they have little commerce with one another (except for mating). They do not build, nor do they engage in art or crafts. Marls live to hunt and to lie in the warmth of the sun.

While marls in the wild are loners, they adapt readily to other societies. When hired as mercenaries they are usually paid in food and shiny trinkets. They learn rapidly; marls adopted into other cultures sometimes exhibit strong talents for artistic endeavors such as painting. Marls mate in the late winter, producing eggs about three
months later. The eggs hatch after another five months, producing cobra-like snakes about two feet long. Over the next two years, these young grow rapidly; their arms begin to grow after about a year. Marls can live for 20 years.

Ecology: Marls are dangerous predators that feed primarily on water birds, though mammals of human-size or smaller are also considered prey

These creatures are said to have been created through magical experimentation, possibly by yuan-ti, though some sages suggest that the creatures originated on a faraway plane of existence, said to be a world completely devoid of magic.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

First off, these things should have much higher Str than the 18-19 implied by the +4 bonus.  Assuming they are Gargantuan (or at the very least, Huge), I'd probably place Str closer to 30.

It looks like we'll have another use for the marilith's Improved Multiweapon Fighting exception.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2010)

Agreed on higher Str and the marilith bit.  I think it should be Huge, though, like the similarly sized and shaped frost worm.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2010)

Huge, Str 30, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 10?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 12, 2010)

Out of curiosity, what is the creature type? Ophidians and yuan-ti are monstrous humanoids, but this seems less humanoid.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Because Scott Greene created the Creature Catalogue, and then created the Tome of Horrors.  We have a long-standing agreement not to "double dip".  Essentially, the Tome of Horrors is the Creature Catalogue in print form (at least up to a certain point in time).
> 
> You'll notice some overlap, mostly with 3e converstion that predated the ToH, and later made it into that book.




Okie-dokey. I can go along with that. Wouldn't want to step on any toes.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed on higher Str and the marilith bit.  I think it should be Huge, though, like the similarly sized and shaped frost worm.




They should definitely be Huge, since 40 feet is half the length of the Gargantuan Purple Worm.

I'd give them a bit lower Strength and higher Dexterity than the suggested values. A giant constrictor snake has Str 25 and Dex 17, so I'm thinking -4 Str and +4 Dex from Shade's proposal:

Str 26, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 10?

Maybe cut that Charisma to 8 or so? I'm not seeing anything to suggest they're very persuasive or attractive creatures.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, these are supposed to be "immensely strong" and don't seem that agile, so I'm slightly inclined to go with Shade's scores.  But we're in fantasy land here, so how about the compromise of Str 28, Dex 15?

As for type, the ormyrr from MM2 are similarly sized (Huge) and shaped (multi-armed slugs rather than snakes) and are monstrous humanoids.  So that's one precedent.  On the other hand, I could see aberration like a naga.  I guess I lean slightly toward monstrous humanoid, but I'm not too hard to persuade either way.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, these are supposed to be "immensely strong" and don't seem that agile, so I'm slightly inclined to go with Shade's scores.  But we're in fantasy land here, so how about the compromise of Str 28, Dex 15?
> 
> As for type, the ormyrr from MM2 are similarly sized (Huge) and shaped (multi-armed slugs rather than snakes) and are monstrous humanoids.  So that's one precedent.  On the other hand, I could see aberration like a naga.  I guess I lean slightly toward monstrous humanoid, but I'm not too hard to persuade either way.




Str 28 and Dex 15 works for me.

There doesn't seem to be much that's humanoid about them apart from their arms, so I'd prefer Aberration or Magical Beast.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm partial to magical beast myself.  It will give them a better BAB for one thing.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

They strike me as most similar to a Yuan-Ti Anathema, which is an aberration.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Well, if the two choices are aberration or magical beast, I think I'd lean toward aberration.  They just don't have the classic magical beast vibe.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Agreed.  If we find the BAB is too detrimental, we can always give it one of the abilities that grants fighter BAB.

I'll Homebrew 'em shortly.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Wow, those slams are really weak for such a big critter.  Should we boost them a bit?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Yeah, probably.  Even an unarmed strike at that size would deal 1d6 damage.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm inclined to go to 1d8, but I guess the low damage of the original monster means something.  We should probably stick to 1d6.  At least it can get a lot of attacks!


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

I think the point was to emphasize weapon use.  It's an interesting tradeoff:  greater weapon damage vs. potential to constrict.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Well, do you think 1d6 is ok, or do you want to cut to 1d4?


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to go to 1d8, but I guess the low damage of the original monster means something.  We should probably stick to 1d6.  At least it can get a lot of attacks!




Since they're basically oversized humanoid fists making the slams do the 1d6 damage of Huge unarmed strikes suits me.

As for the weapons, I'm fancying Huge sickles, at 2d6 damage apiece.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.




So what constrict damage should they do. 1d6+9 like the slams?

Hmm, looking at the damage I'm wondering whether the all-sickle attacks aren't worse than the all-slams. The damage is the same and they get Constrict.

Oh well, the sickles don't have to be optimal and I like the idea of them.

Besides, we can always change it to Huge morningstars (3d6) if we decide they need a weapon upgrade.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

The sickles deal an additional 1d6 over each slam, right?  Isn't that better?

You know, the constriction was originally quite strong and tied to its tail.  I think we should keep it high damage, and use one of those "transfer to the tail" mechanics I've seen used before.   The search begins...


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

...and quickly ends...

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a chuul must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict or on its next turn transfer a grabbed opponent to its tentacles.

Paralytic Tentacles (Ex): A chuul can transfer grabbed victims from a claw to its tentacles as a move action. The tentacles grapple with the same strength as the claw but deal no damage. However, they exude a paralytic secretion. Anyone held in the tentacles must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save each round on the chuul’s turn or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. While held in the tentacles, paralyzed or not, a victim automatically takes 1d8+2 points of damage each round from the creature’s mandibles.

...so...

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a marl must hit with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and on its next turn can transfer a grabbed opponent to its constricting tail.

Constricting Tail (Ex): A marl can transfer grabbed victims from a slam to its tail as a move action.   Although it lacks a tail slap attack, it can constrict with its powerful tail, dealing 6d6(?) points of damage with a successful grapple check.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

I think that looks pretty good.  And 6d6 on the constrict is close enough to the extra damage from the sickles (plus almost automatic) to make it an interesting option.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> The sickles deal an additional 1d6 over each slam, right?  Isn't that better?
> 
> You know, the constriction was originally quite strong and tied to its tail.  I think we should keep it high damage, and use one of those "transfer to the tail" mechanics I've seen used before.   The search begins...




They deal an extra d6 sure, but the offhand sickles also get half Strength bonus (2d6+4) while ALL its slams get full Strength bonus (1d6+9).

That extra +5 damage bonus is worth more than an extra 1d6.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> *SNIP*
> 
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a marl must hit with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and on its next turn can transfer a grabbed opponent to its constricting tail.
> 
> Constricting Tail (Ex): A marl can transfer grabbed victims from a slam to its tail as a move action.   Although it lacks a tail slap attack, it can constrict with its powerful tail, dealing 6d6(?) points of damage with a successful grapple check.




That'd work, although I'd rather the constriction damage included a Str bonus - maybe 2d8+13?


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

I could see that, though I think I might prefer using straight up +Str instead of +1.5 Str for these for some reason.  It's strange that it's not uniform what bonus to use.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

So...are we going with 6d6+9 or 2d8+9?


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

I'd prefer 2d8+9 so the manufactured weapons are a little more viable.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested natural armor bonus?  Yuan-ti abominations are +10, anathema are +20.   Maybe +15 here, since they fall between 'em in size and power?

Skills: 26 ranks
Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot?

Feats: Multiweapon Fighting (B), 4 more
Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Stealthy...

Does the "bird rage" need to be a special ability, or does flavor text suffice?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

+15 na is fine.

7 each in Hide and Move Silently, 6 each in Listen and Spot?

Reckless Offense for the last feat?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Sounds good.   Updated.  Should we give it a racial bonus on Hide checks when submerged in water, like a crocodile?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

That sounds good to me.  +4 like the croc?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Sounds good.

Environment: Temperate and warm marshes?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)

Treasure: Type "R" looks like standard coins, no goods or items.

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)?

Marls speak Common and Draconic?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

> Habitat/Society: Marls have no real culture of their own. Though a few of them might be found in the same area, they have little commerce with one another (except for mating). They do not build, nor do they engage in art or crafts. Marls live to hunt and to lie in the warmth of the sun.
> 
> While marls in the wild are loners, they adapt readily to other societies. When hired as mercenaries they are usually paid in food and shiny trinkets. They learn rapidly; marls adopted into other cultures sometimes exhibit strong talents for artistic endeavors such as painting. Marls mate in the late winter, producing eggs about three
> months later. The eggs hatch after another five months, producing cobra-like snakes about two feet long. Over the next two years, these young grow rapidly; their arms begin to grow after about a year. Marls can live for 20 years.




It actually sounds more like

Organization: Solitary or company (1 plus 3-20 Xth level humanoid fighters).

The rest looks good.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> +15 na is fine.
> 
> 7 each in Hide and Move Silently, 6 each in Listen and Spot?
> 
> Reckless Offense for the last feat?




That natural armour bonus seems way too high. The original was only AC6. I was thinking more +4 NA like a Giant Constrictor Snake.

Maybe somewhere inbetween, like NA +10 to +12?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

3rd to 5th level for the fighters?

+12 NA works.

Updated.

CR 7-8?  They have more attacks than a yuan-ti abomination (CR 7), but lack poison and psionic abilities.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

3rd - 5th level works.

I'm going to say CR 7.  They're a bit better almost all the way around vs a CR 7 8-headed hydra, but the hydra has that really fast fast healing.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> 3rd - 5th level works.
> 
> I'm going to say CR 7.  They're a bit better almost all the way around vs a CR 7 8-headed hydra, but the hydra has that really fast fast healing.




Challenge Rating 7 and 3rd-5th level for the fighters is OK by me.

That just leaves the weight, right?

They're similar in size and shape to a Behir (40 feet & 4000 pounds) so ought to weigh about the same. Alternatively, downsizing a Purple Worm to match their size would be 5000 pounds.

So I'm thinking 4000-5000 pounds.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Updated.  Complete?


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Complete?




They look finished to me.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Yup.


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

*Fish, Subterranean*
Although many fish species are found in subterranean fresh waters, three varieties in particular pose problems to creatures that pass through Undermountain’s waterways: they are the wattley, the lemon fish, and the iridescent plecos. These fish are found in bodies of water where luminous lichen or other sources provide a setting that approximates natural lighting. They particularly thrive in the underground caverns of Undermountain where the forest streams of Wyllowwood and the River Sargauth flow.

While not as vicious as barracuda or piranha, these fish are carnivorous and enjoy the taste of flesh, attacking creatures of rat size and larger (even larger than themselves) when they are hungry. They can subside on creatures smaller than that but they must eat a large amount to provide a good meal. The fish are docile and nearly harmless if they have fed recently.

*Fish, Subterranean, Lemon Fish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underground pools, streams, and rivers
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: Sw 24
HIT DICE: 4 to 9
THAC0: Varies by HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 (bite/tail)
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 4-6 HD: 2d4/4-6 hp + poison; 7-8 HD: 2d6/7-8 hp + poison; 9 HD: 2d8/9 hp + poison
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Stun cloud
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: S-M (2’-6’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: Varies by HD

Named for the bright yellow scales that cover much of their bodies, lemon fish are among the most vicious predators in subterranean fresh waters. They vary widely in size, with adults ranging from 2 feet to 6 feet long. Unlike other fish, the size of a lemon fish is not indicative of its age. The strongest of the fish feed more often, and therefore grow to become stronger still and vastly more dangerous. 

Lemon fish are pleasing to the eye. Those looking through the water at them have said they resemble living gold pieces. The dorsal fin,ti pped with black like all the others, resembles that of a shark when it breaks the surface of the water. The tail is covered with yellow and black barbs, with a thin spike extending up to 2 feet beyond the tail. Its eyes are black saucers that close when the fish moves forward for a kill. The damage of a lemon fish‘s bite is proportionate to its size, the largest inflicting 2-16 (2dS) points of damage with its double rows of teeth.

Regardless of its size, the lemon fish is able to attack twice per round a vicious bite and a tail slap that causes points of damage equal to the fish’s Hit Dice. For example, a 7 HD lemon fish has a tail slap that inflicts 7 points of damage each time it hits. The damage is caused by the needlelike spike and the barbs. Those struck by the tail must save vs. poison or suffer ld6 points of damage per round for as many subsequent rounds as the fish has Hit Dice (an attack by a 7 HD lemon fish causes 7 points of tail slap damage plus 7d6 points of poison damage across 7 rounds).

Lemon fish also possess a special defense that comes into play when the fish’s body is punctured. The injured fish instinctively releases a filmy liquid that expands into a sphere twice the diameter of the fish‘s length (e.g., a 2-foot fish creates a 4-foot spherical area of effect). Those caught in the sphere must save vs. poison at 4 or be stunned for ld4 rounds, often allowing the bleeding fish to flee. If other lemon fish are swimming with the injured one, they usually attack the stunned creature, since they are immune to their own poisons. 

Lemon fish are usually solitary, and never more than three are found together. Generally, these fish are of 7 HD or fewer. The largest of the fish always hunts alone. 

The flesh of a lemon fish is tough and generally inedible, though the organs of the fish are tasty and prized by duergar and drow. The fish’s toxicity is lost after its death, so consuming the animal poses no threat. Lemon fish lay eggs up to four times a year, with each yielding 100-600 eggs. Only ten out of 100 young survive to reach adulthood. The eggs of the lemon fish are edible and command up to 400 gp a pound, (roughly 600 eggs).

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Hmm, 4-9 HD is awful high for a Small to Medium Animal, that seems more Magical Beast territory.

How about keeping them Animals but increase their size and make them  Dire? e.g. Medium to Large Dire Animals?

The set damage for the tail-slap is an odd mechanism, I think we had better change it to a die roll plus 1.5 Str, plus lingering damage from the tail-spines.

EDIT: Hold on, it's got Magic Resistance! We'd better make them Magical Beasts then, in which case we can keep them Small to Medium.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Okay then, hows this for a start, using the Morena conversion we just did as a foundation:

*Lemon Fish*
Small Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+2
Attack: Bite + melee (1d8+2) or tail + melee (1d2+3 plus tail-spines)
Full Attack: Bite + melee (1d8+2) and tail + melee (1d2+3 plus tail-spines)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Tail-spines, stun cloud
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int *0 or 1**?*, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: *0 or 7?*
 Feats: *0 or 2?*
Environment: Subterraneaun aquatic
Organization: Solitary or *pack (2-3)?*
Challenge Rating: *?*
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5 HD (Small); 6-8 HD (Medium); 9-16 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---

Stun Cloud (Ex): 

Tail-Spines (Ex):


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 24, 2010)

Intelligence should be 1.  Fish (magical and otherwise) aren't mindless in 3e.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Intelligence should be 1.  Fish (magical and otherwise) aren't mindless in 3e.




I left the option open since there's no rule preventing them being non-intelligent like the AD&D original.

That said, I'd rather Lemon Fish be Int 1 since there's no mention of them being resistant to mind-influencing effects.

Besides, it lets us give them feats.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We need to first decide whether the lingering damage is caused by poison (like the original text suggests), pain from broken off spines, or some combination of the two.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> We need to first decide whether the lingering damage is caused by poison (like the original text suggests), pain from broken off spines, or some combination of the two.




I prefer spines that skewer their way through the opponent's body.

The way they last up to the fish's HD in rounds makes me think it's actually a supernatural attack, like a barbed devil's Barbed Defence. It'll give them some more justification for being Magical Beasts.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

I like the idea of the skewering spines, but I'd prefer a more random duration (to go with a random damage).  I also think there should be some poison involved somewhere, since the flesh seems to be poisonous while they're alive.  Maybe a poison rider on the skewers?


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like the idea of the skewering spines, but I'd prefer a more random duration (to go with a random damage).  I also think there should be some poison involved somewhere, since the flesh seems to be poisonous while they're alive.  Maybe a poison rider on the skewers?




I tend to agree with all that.  Should the skewering spines cause pain (similar to a symbol of pain) as well as dealing a minor amount of damage?

The term "poison" is a bit confusing, as it seems to be attributed to the stunning cloud and skewer lingering damage solely because they use a "save vs. poison" mechanic.

How about just lingering damage (and possibly pain) for the skewers, and treat the stun cloud as a venomous effect (like a troglodyte's stench), but not actual poison?


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

I actually got the idea of poison from 



> The flesh of a lemon fish is tough and generally inedible, though the organs of the fish are tasty and prized by duergar and drow. The fish’s toxicity is lost after its death, so consuming the animal poses no threat.




which seems to imply that their flesh is poisonous or they have a truly poisonous attack.  But it's not a big issue.  

I take it you want to add "A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws." to the stun cloud?  That's fine.  Sounds like a plan.


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## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I tend to agree with all that.  Should the skewering spines cause pain (similar to a symbol of pain) as well as dealing a minor amount of damage?




I'd leave off the symbol of pain, since there's no mention of the spines being agonizing.



Shade said:


> The term "poison" is a bit confusing, as it seems to be attributed to the stunning cloud and skewer lingering damage solely because they use a "save vs. poison" mechanic.




I was interpreting that "save vs. poison" as being more like a Fortitude check to expel the spines before they start working their way in.

Maybe that's the approach we should take? 1d6 damage per round until a successful Fortitude save or Heal check is made to expel the spines?

How about one of the following:
*Tail-Spines (Ex) [Random Duration]:* A lemon fish's tail is  covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent with its  tail attack, the opponent must make a DC X Fortitude save or the spines  work their way into their flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage each round  for 1d4 rounds (1d6 rounds for Medium-sized lemon fish and 1d8 rounds for  Large-sized lemon fish). The spines can be removed with a successful DC 15  Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for Large lemon fish). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save  or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.

*Tail-Spines (Ex) [Fort Save To End]:* A lemon fish's tail is  covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent with its  tail attack, the opponent must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or take  1d6 piercing damage. The spines will work their way into the opponent's  flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage per round until the opponent succeeds  at a Fortitude (DC X -1 per round after the first), which expels the  spines. 

The spines can be removed with a successful DC 15  Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for Large lemon fish).

 Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save  or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.​  Hmm, I think I'll change my mind and go for the "Random Damage" approach.



Shade said:


> How about just lingering damage (and possibly pain) for the skewers, and treat the stun cloud as a venomous effect (like a troglodyte's stench), but not actual poison?




I was going to go for a "poisonous but not poison" approach like that, e.g.:
*Stun Cloud (Ex):* Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5 ft. spread (10 ft. for a Medium-sized lemon fish, 15 ft. for a Large-sized lemon fish). All living creatures within this cloud except for other lemon fish must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for Y rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.​


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> I take it you want to add "A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws." to the stun cloud?  That's fine.  Sounds like a plan.




Indeed.



Cleon said:


> I was interpreting that "save vs. poison" as being more like a Fortitude check to expel the spines before they start working their way in.
> 
> Maybe that's the approach we should take? 1d6 damage per round until a successful Fortitude save or Heal check is made to expel the spines?




I don't like the idea of "burrowing spines".  Rather, I'd like 'em to work like harpoons, barbs, etc.   Once they're in, you simply need to remove 'em with a Heal check, or take more damage.

Your stun cloud draft looks pretty close to what I was envisioning.

Revising...

Stun Cloud (Ex): Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5-foot spread (10-foot for a Medium lemon fish and 15-foot for a Large fish). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a stunned creature.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I don't like the idea of "burrowing spines".  Rather, I'd like 'em to work like harpoons, barbs, etc.   Once they're in, you simply need to remove 'em with a Heal check, or take more damage.




Well is it just a question of terminology? There's no actual mention of "burrowing" in the description. The spines could lacerate the flesh or cause copious bleeding until they're removed rather than digging deeper in. I think the actual mechanics are OK, although I think I'd rather have the spine damage be variable rather than the duration.

Revising...

*Tail-Spines (Ex) [Random Duration]:* A lemon fish's  tail is  covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent  with its  tail attack, the opponent must make a DC X Fortitude save or  the spines  work their way into their flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage  each round  for 1d4 rounds (1d8 damage for a Medium-sized lemon fish's spines, 2d6 damage for  Large-sized lemon fish). The spines can be removed with a  successful DC 15  Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for  Large lemon fish). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save   or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.



Shade said:


> Your stun cloud draft looks pretty close to what I was envisioning.
> 
> Revising...
> 
> Stun Cloud (Ex): Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5-foot spread (10-foot for a Medium lemon fish and 15-foot for a Large fish). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a stunned creature.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




That looks good to me.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm not sure that it's the nomenclature Shade doesn't like; I expect it's the damage every round that's the problem.  I think I like the harpoon-like option myself, too.

Stun Cloud does look good.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure that it's the nomenclature Shade doesn't like; I expect it's the damage every round that's the problem.  I think I like the harpoon-like option myself, too.




Well the original does damage per round, so I'd rather have the conversion do too.

What do you propose for a 'harpoon option'? Perhaps you could persuade me to come around.



freyar said:


> Stun Cloud does look good.




Well at least we're agreed on _something_.


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Something like the quills on a howler; if you take out the spine without a successful Heal check, the victim takes additional damage.  I see the appeal of a continuing penalty for having a spine stuck in you, but I'm not sure the justification.  Maybe damage from barbs if you move around while it's still jammed in there?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Something like the quills on a howler; if you take out the spine without a successful Heal check, the victim takes additional damage.  I see the appeal of a continuing penalty for having a spine stuck in you, but I'm not sure the justification.  Maybe damage from barbs if you move around while it's still jammed in there?




Yes that could work. If the spined victim exerts themselves physically (as in makes an attack or moves) they take X damage, and they also take X damage if the spine is removed without a successful DC Y Heal check.

Although sticking to lingering damage would be closer to the original, you know.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep, freyar summed up my problem with it perfectly.



Cleon said:


> Yes that could work. If the spined victim exerts themselves physically (as in makes an attack or moves) they take X damage, and they also take X damage if the spine is removed without a successful DC Y Heal check.




I can go for that.



Cleon said:


> Although sticking to lingering damage would be closer to the original, you know.




Indeed it would, and it would also be further from everything with similar mechanics in 3e.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, freyar summed up my problem with it perfectly.
> 
> I can go for that.




Would you like to write something up then?



Shade said:


> Indeed it would, and it would also be further from everything with similar mechanics in 3e.




Don't you want it to be unique and distinctive?


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Don't you want it to be unique and distinctive?




It already is.  Name me another lingering damage monster with LEMON SCENT!  

Modifying the howler's quills...

Spines (Ex): A lemon fish's tail is covered in spines. An opponent hit by a lemon fish's tail attack must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or have a spine break off in his or her flesh. Additionally, any creature grappling a lemon fish also must make a Reflex save to avoid being impaled by a spine.  Lodged spines impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per spine. If a victim exerts itself physically (by taking any action other than a purely mental action), it suffers 1d6 points of damage.  The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A spine can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a spine deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> It already is.  Name me another lingering damage monster with LEMON SCENT!




Dire Lemon? Lemon-Flavoured Gello Monster? 



Shade said:


> Modifying the howler's quills...
> 
> Spines (Ex): A lemon fish's tail is covered in spines. An opponent hit by a lemon fish's tail attack must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or have a spine break off in his or her flesh. Additionally, any creature grappling a lemon fish also must make a Reflex save to avoid being impaled by a spine.  Lodged spines impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per spine. If a victim exerts itself physically (by taking any action other than a purely mental action), it suffers 1d6 points of damage.  The save DC is Dexterity-based.
> 
> A spine can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a spine deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.




I'd add a maximum penalty (say -4) and maybe make the damage piercing, but other than that it's fine.

*Spines (Ex):* A lemon fish's tail is covered in spines. An opponent hit  by a lemon fish's tail attack must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or have  a spine break off in his or her flesh. Additionally, any creature  grappling a lemon fish also must make a Reflex save to avoid being  impaled by a spine.  Lodged spines impose a –1 penalty on attacks,  saves, and checks per spine (maximum penalty -4). If a victim exerts itself physically (by  taking any action other than a purely mental action), they suffer 1d6  points of piercing damage.  The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A spine can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a spine deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Glad we've settled that!  Ready for skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Glad we've settled that!  Ready for skills and feats?




Okie-Dokie!

Split the ranks between Spot and Listen, with a racial bonus?

Also, since these are subterranean fish that hunt by the glow of phosphorescent fungi, should we give them Superior Low-Light Vision like the SRD Giant Owl?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Sure, that sounds fun.  

Updated.

+4 racial bonus on those skills?  Put the leftover rank in Spot?


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, that sounds fun.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> +4 racial bonus on those skills?  Put the leftover rank in Spot?




Yup to both.

Why does the tail attack not have the -5 attack penalty for being secondary?

Feats next?

Blind-Fight seems applicable.

Weapon Focus (bite) or Ability Focus (spines or stun cloud) ?


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Fixed the secondary tail modifier.

Blind-Fight and WF appeal.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or pack (2-3)?

Challenge Rating: 2?

A typical lemon fish is 5 to 6 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed the secondary tail modifier.
> 
> Blind-Fight and WF appeal.
> 
> ...




That'll do. The original says solitary lemon fish tend to be bigger than ones that hunt in packs, so we'd better mention that in the background info.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?




They've got decent Spell Resistance, so I'd lean toward CR3. Most PCs will need to jump into the water and fight them mano-a-pisco.



Shade said:


> A typical lemon fish is 5 to 6 feet long and weighs x pounds.




That's too big. They're about a foot long per Hit Dice, remember, so should start out as 4-footers. A 4 foot Great White Shark would weigh ~60 pounds, but Lemon Fish should be slimmer since they're Small size.

 30-60 pounds weight to start with?

A typical lemon fish is 4 to 5 feet long and weighs between 30 and 60 pounds, but these fish can reach 16 feet in length and a ton in weight. Lemon fish are approximately a foot long for each hit dice they possess.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




The first paragraph of the tactics looks like it belongs in the flavour text, and I think we can trim the flavour text down a bit.

I'd rather cut the "nearly man-sized" from the description, since it might be a large solitary fish (and the "two-foot spike" might be better changed too).

How's this?

_A black-tipped dorsal fin breaks the surface of the water, followed  by a tail covered in yellow and black barbs, terminating in a long spike.  The rest of the fish is covered in bright  yellow scales that gleam like gold.  Its eyes resemble black saucers._

A lemon fish is a carnivorous, subterranean fish found in bodies of fresh  water where luminous lichen or other sources approximate natural  lighting.  It gets its name from its bright yellow scales.  Observing a  lemon fish through water is reminiscent of a living gold piece. 

While not as bloodthirsty as piranha, these fish are vicious predators who enjoy the taste of flesh. A hungry lemon fish will attack prey ranging from as small as a rat to even  larger than themselves. These fish are docile and nearly harmless if they  have fed recently, but they must eat a large amount  to provide a good meal. The strongest fish feed more often, and therefore grow to  become stronger still and vastly more dangerous. Lemon fish are mostly solitary. Large lemon fish always hunt alone, but the smaller ones sometimes hunt in packs, although never more than  three are found together. 

Although lemon fish flesh is tough and generally inedible, its organs  are a prized delicacy among duergar and drow.  Lemon fish spawn up to  four times a year, yielding 100-600 eggs each time. Only ten out of 100  young survive to reach adulthood. The eggs of the lemon fish are edible  and command up to 400 gp per pound (roughly 600 eggs).

A typical lemon fish is 4 to 5 feet long and weighs between 30 and 60  pounds, but these fish can reach 16 feet in length and a ton in weight.  Lemon fish are approximately a foot long for each hit dice they possess.

* COMBAT*
Lemon fish strike with their jaws and spine-covered tails.  If injured, a  lemon fish may release a cloud of stunning toxins into the surrounding  water.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Yeah, that looks better.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2010)

Looking good.  Are they done?


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that looks better.
> 
> Updated.




I think the little fishie is done to a turn now.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Let's throw another on the fryer!

*Fish, Subterranean, Iridescent Plecos*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underground pools, streams, and rivers
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 10-100
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: Sw 12
HIT DICE: 1-1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1+disease
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1 hp
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (6”-2’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 35

These beautihl fish are shaped similarly to barracudas, their long, tapered bodies covered with shimmering scales; their graceful movement along the bottoms of shallow streams and ponds reminds onlookers of long streams of sparkling diamonds. They are often found in schools of 10 to 100, though some fishermen claim to have spotted larger schools. Their diamondlike scales lure many humans and demihumans into the water to catch the fish, though few of these return.

Iridescent plecos range from 6 inches to 2 feet long and can be quite deadly The fishes’ teeth are little more than a dull bony ridge; the bite of a pleco inflicts no damage, regardless of its size, as it uses its mouth to hold its prey. However, under each pleco’s chin are spiked barbels: whiskerlike tendrils. On a successful bite, the barbels pierce the victim’s skin around the bite, inflicting 1 hit point of damage and injecting a violent venom. Creatures injected with pleco venom save vs. poison with a -4 penalty. Those who are successful suffer no ill effects. Creatures failing the save suffer a debilitating disease that sets in within two hours. An affected character loses 1 point of Strength and Constitution each per day until death (when one of the scores reaches 0). The disease can be cured up to 72 hours after injection; after that time, the damage is irreversible and fatal. Victims with the venom in their system for more than three days literally wither away. 

Iridescent plecos are non-aggressive. They attack primarily in self-defense, such as if stepped on or if a creature is trying to catch them. Bottom feeders, the fish scavenge rotting flesh and plants and objects thrown into the water; they do not go after live prey Ofttimes their food is tainted or rotten, making their flesh inedible. Some believe this is also what causes their venom to be so potent and virulent. 

Iridescent plecos have few predators. Humans and demihumans have tried to preserve their glistening, gemlike skins to no avail; the lustre leaves the skins upon death, and the fish itself is malodorous. The only profit gained from encountering this fish is its eggs, from which some assassins can prepare a debilitating poison.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's throw another on the fryer!
> 
> *Fish, Subterranean, Iridescent Plecos*




Looks pretty straightforward.

Tiny Animal (Aquatic) that carries a disease.

We should do a Swarm version as well, but I'd stat an individual first.

I'd base the stats on a rat, but give them a higher Charisma 'cause they's so pretty.

Str and Con damage for the disease. I'd give it a racial bonus to its DCs. +4 seems too high, so I'll go for +2 - the swarm version will have a better DC with its disease, due to having more HD.

How's this for a start:

*Fish, Subterranean, **Iridescent Plecos*
Tiny Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-3 plus disease)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-3 plus disease)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease
Special Qualities: Superior low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: All ranks in Spot?, Swim +9
Feats: 1 plus Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any underground aquatic
Organization: Solitary, outbreak (2-20), school (10-100), swarm, or plague (2-8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 1/3? [Less tough than a Dire Rat but nastier disease]
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

*Disease (Ex):*
_Iridescent fever_—bite attack, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Str and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. 

*Skills:* An irrdescent plesco can use its Strength modifier or its Dexterity modifier for Swim checks. A plesco has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

An excellent start!  Added to Homebrews.

For the feat, let's just take the "(B)" off Weapon Finesse.  The barracuda has only Weapon Finesse.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> An excellent start!  Added to Homebrews.
> 
> For the feat, let's just take the "(B)" off Weapon Finesse.  The barracuda has only Weapon Finesse.




I'd rather keep the (B) and give it Alertness as its feat, with 2 ranks apiece in Listen & Spot.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

That's fine.  

Updated.

Iridescent plecos range from 6 inches to 2 feet long and weigh between x and x pounds.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's fine.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Iridescent plecos range from 6 inches to 2 feet long and weigh between x and x pounds.




That's a pretty wide range, the longest is 4 times longer than the shortest.

Anyhow, they're described as barracuda-like in shape. Barracudas are pretty slim. A record size barracuda is ~6 feet long and 100 pounds, which translates to 4 pounds for a 2 foot long fish.

According to *this paper*, a species of small barracuda from 15-45 cm long (6" to 18") weighs 50-450 grams (2 oz to 1 pound). That's Diminutive sized in 3E terms.

So, how about assuming the 6" ones are immature or undernourished individuals and narrow the "typical" length range to 1-2 feet, then we can use the 1 lb weight or a cubit-length barracuda and the 4 lb weight of the "scaled down" record barracuda as the limits?

So, I propose:

Adult iridescent plecos can be as little as 6 inches long, but most range from 1 to 2 feet long and weigh between 1 and 4 pounds.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Excellent.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Excellent.  Updated.




They look done.

There's a typo in the first paragraph of flavour text - "thsee" instead of "these" - and their touch AC should be 13 not 12, but once that's fixed I'm happy moving on to the Wattley.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Fixed the plecos, and here's the wattley...

*Fish, Subterranean, Wattley*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underground pools, streams, and rivers
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Sw 18
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1+paralysis
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (6”-1’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 35

Perhaps the most beautiful of the subterranean fish, wattleys are oval-shaped, looking like near-circles with sharp, tiny teeth and lacy fins. The fish are from one to three inches thick. Brilliant stripes cover their bodies, and have caused sages to believe there are several varieties of wattleys. Green-, blue-, and brown-striped fish have been caught, and rare solid blue and green wattleys have been seen.

These are clearly the most intelligent of the subterranean fish. In schools led by a single fish, usually the largest and oldest (delivering 14 points of biting damage because of its size), they congregate in groups of 10 to 40 where they will be safer from predators. At night, schools come together in larger groups for even ereater protection, sometimes numbering as many as 300 fish altogether.

Wattleys are voracious, consuming at least their weight in food every three days. The bite of a wattle contains a paralytic venom. All creatures of 2 Hit Dice or fewer are automatically paralyzed if bitten by one of these fish. Creatures of greater Hit Dice must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or fall unconscious for 3d6 rounds, minus a number of rounds equal to their Hit Dice. A saving throw must be made for each bite. An entire school hunts, using their paralytic bites to bring down large prey so all members can feed.

 Unsuspecting adventurers wading through underground rivers and streams have found themselves floating helpless in the water after a single bite from these fish.   Creatures not able to breathe water often drown before the paralysis wears off. Wattleys mate for life, and each pair produces 10-100 eggs every three months, with 10d4 surviving to reach maturity .

Despite the danger, wattleys are hunted by humans and demihumans traveling underground. These hunters throw small animals and fresh meat into water inhabited by the fii. When the fish eat and become sated, the fishermen wade into the water and net as many fish as possible before they flee. The flesh of wattleys is delicious, and their organs, properly prepared, can be used in the creation of paralytic poisons and salves. In addition, their scales are dsed to decorate clothing and jewelry. Live wattleys can be sold for 2-12 gp apiece (depending on size and coloration) to wealthy surface dwellers who stock the fish in ponds and indoor tanks. In captivity, wattleys live 2-4 years, opposed to 15 years in their normal habitat. Wattley eggs are delicacies, commanding as much as 1,600 gp per pound (roughly 800 eggs).

Wattleys’ major predators include drow and duergar (who use the fish as a source of food and uoison), and lemon fish, which prey upon the smaller school;. The fish are also prized because of the treasure sometimes found inside. ‘The wattlevs are drawn to shiny objects, and larger specimens can swallow pearls, small gems, and other tiny valuables. The objects become lodged inside the fish, and the fish must be gutted to retrieve any valuables. Only one in 20 fish (1 on ld20 roll) has swallowed some small thing of value (DMs choice).

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.

*Swarm?*


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed the plecos, and here's the wattley...
> 
> *Swarm?*




Yes, Swarm makes sense. I'd like to stat up an individual first, though.

I wondered about making them Diminutive, since they're half the length of an Irridescent Plesco. However, Wattley's are practically circular instead of being long barracuda-shaped fish like the Plesco so it makes more sense keeping them Tiny.

Take a Plesco, change it to a Magical Beast (since Wattley's are Semi-Intelligent), raise swim speed to 40 ft., add 2 To Dexterity and Intelligence, increase bite to 1d4 and change its disease to a Ghast's paralysis? Maybe increase the Advancement to 2-3 HD (Small)?

That ought to do it:

*Fish, Subterranean, Wattley*
Tiny Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: Swim 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-10
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d4-3 plus paralysis)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d4-3 plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Paralysis
Special Qualities: Scent, superior low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +9
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any underground aquatic
Organization: Solitary, ??? (2-20), or school (10-100) or swarm or ??? (2-? swarms)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

"Congregation" for the smaller grouping?  Or make "school" the smaller grouping, and the larger a "nocturnal gathering" or "nocturnal school"?

How about 1d2 rounds for the paralysis, and lengthen the duration for the school?


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> "Congregation" for the smaller grouping?  Or make "school" the smaller grouping, and the larger a "nocturnal gathering" or "nocturnal school"?




Hmm...

Organization: Solitary, class (2-20), school (10-100), night college (1-3 swarms) or university (2-8 swarms)





Shade said:


> How about 1d2 rounds for the paralysis, and lengthen the duration for the school?




1d3 rounds paralysis for an individual, 1d4+1 rounds for a swarm?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Organization: Solitary, class (2-20), school (10-100), night college (1-3 swarms) or university (2-8 swarms)




Don't make me add "finishing school".  

No need to include the swarms on the non-swarm's Org line.



Cleon said:


> 1d3 rounds paralysis for an individual, 1d4+1 rounds for a swarm?




That's probably fine, but I think 1d3 rounds is a bit much for a CR 1/3 critter...we'll probably need to boost it to CR 1.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Don't make me add "finishing school".
> 
> No need to include the swarms on the non-swarm's Org line.
> 
> That's probably fine, but I think 1d3 rounds is a bit much for a CR 1/3 critter...we'll probably need to boost it to CR 1.




1d2 suits me just as well.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Updated.

Treasure: 1d4 coins or gems?

Wattleys range from 6 inches to 1 foot long and weigh x.  (Less than a pound?)


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Treasure: 1d4 coins or gems?




Well a literal translation would be something like "5% goods or item (non organic only)" with a note that it's been swallowed.



Shade said:


> Wattleys range from 6 inches to 1 foot long and weigh x.  (Less than a pound?)




I'd go for "about 1 pound". They're practically circular, so probably are pretty hefty for their length, like a *sunfish* or *moonfish*.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well a literal translation would be something like "5% goods or item (non organic only)" with a note that it's been swallowed.




My fear with that is if a template that increases CR, but not its size, is applied, then ingested treasure no longer makes sense.  The way I wrote it limits the physical amount of treasure, but allows for increased value, no?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> My fear with that is if a template that increases CR, but not its size, is applied, then ingested treasure no longer makes sense.  The way I wrote it limits the physical amount of treasure, but allows for increased value, no?




I don't mind 1d4 coins or gems, but it has difficult fitting to the 3E treasure system - how do you determine the type or coin or the value of gem?

Maybe it'd be easier to just have "None" and include a flavour note that large specimens occasionally contain treasure.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm fine with that.

Shall we move on to the swarm?

For starters, how many HD?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with that.
> 
> Shall we move on to the swarm?
> 
> For starters, how many HD?




I would guess somewhere around 7-9 HD.

They've got four times the HD of a Rat and a higher Constitution, which I suppose argues for the higher value.

9 HD?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

Updated, with swarm as an underbar to individual.

We'll need 3 more feats.
Piranha Swarm has Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness
Hetfish Swarm has Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes

CR 4 or 5?  It has one more HD and its poison makes it deadlier than a piranha swarm (CR 4), but it has 1 less HD and 15 fewer HD than a CR 5 hetfish swarm.  I think I'm leaning toward 5, since paralyis and automatic swarm damage is a deadly combo.

For the treasure, shall we just assume a number of the fish have coins or gems within their gullets?


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated, with swarm as an underbar to individual.
> 
> We'll need 3 more feats.
> Piranha Swarm has Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness
> Hetfish Swarm has Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes




I'd go Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative.



Shade said:


> CR 4 or 5?  It has one more HD and its poison makes it deadlier than a piranha swarm (CR 4), but it has 1 less HD and 15 fewer HD than a CR 5 hetfish swarm.  I think I'm leaning toward 5, since paralyis and automatic swarm damage is a deadly combo.




Definitely CR 5.



Shade said:


> For the treasure, shall we just assume a number of the fish have coins or gems within their gullets?




I think we could put something in their treasure line.

The swarm will have about 300 fish in it, so something like:

*Treasure:* 25% coins (maximum of 3d100 coins), standard goods (gems only), 10% items (only items under 1/10th pound in weight)


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd go Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative.




I already gave 'em Alertness, so that's three more (not three total).  

Can a swarm (which has no reach) utilize Combat Reflexes?

CR 5 and treasure look good.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> I already gave 'em Alertness, so that's three more (not three total).
> 
> Can a swarm (which has no reach) utilize Combat Reflexes?




I believe it can, so long as the provoking creature is in a square occupied by the swarm.

That won't be useful very often, so I'd be game for swapping it for Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude if you prefer.


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2010)

Go with Alertness, Imp Init, Ability Focus (paralysis), and I guess Iron Will.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




The swarm's paralysis description reads a bit oddly since it doesn't use a bite attack like an individual. I'd change it to:

*Paralysis (Ex):* Any creature injured by a wattley swarm's attack must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Just noticed a typo in the first paragraph of description:

"Wattleys are predatory subterranean fish found in bodies of fresh water  where luminous lichen or other sources approximate natural lighting.  These voracious carnivores *ae *known to consume their own body weight in  food every three days."


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

Looks done otherwise, though.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Typo repaired.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Typo repaired.




They should be done then.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

*Head, Arcane*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Nightmare Lands
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Flock
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET:  Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 13
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (7)
MOVEMENT: Fly 15 (C)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 18
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Bash
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: T (1’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 270

Arcane heads are the severed heads of wanderers whose physi.sal bodies die in the Nightmare Lands, specifically the Terrain Between. The heads are then magically aniniated by Mullonga, the aboriginal witch of the Nightmare Court. A flock of 13 arcane heads serve Mullonga, searching for physical wanderers traveling in the Nightmare Lands.

An arcane head looks much as it did in life, except that it has no body.  Its eyes are empty and white, and a supernatural glow surrounds it.  Its teeth are much sharper than those of a normal human, and its neck has been sewn shut where it was severed from its body.  An arcane head moves through the power of magical flight, tracing mystical patterns in the air as it travels.  When the mystic patterns of several heads are combined in a specific way, a portal opens through which Mullonga may travel to reach her ghastly servants.

The only sounds made by an arcane head are low, pathetic moans and the grinding of sharp teeth.  It appears they can communicate with Mullonga in some way, but they do not speak or otherwise talk to their victims.

Combat: Arcane heads always attack in a flock, flying around their victims and darting in to bite or bash. On the first round of combat, the heads dive at a victim, trying to employ their special bash attack. A bash attack requires a successful attack roll. It is actually a magical attack that inflicts no physical damage. Instead, the victim must make a saving throw vs. spell or stunned by the touch of the head’s arcane aura for 1d4+1 rounds. Stunned characters suffer automatic bite damage every round from any arcane heads that attack them.

Each head bites for 1d6 points of damage. The speed and small size of each head accounts for its Armor Class. If held in place (such as by a web spell), a head only has an AC 7.

In addition to flight and the bash attack, the heads use their arcane powers to open a magical portal controlled by Mullonga. It takes at least five heads spiming in unison for 1d4+1 rounds to open the portal. Mullonga can step through the portal or use it to transport wanderers into a dreamscape.

Habitat/Society: When not prowling the dark hours on behalf of their mistress, the flock of arcane heads rests in one of the tenements in Mullonga’s ever-shifting Ghettoes. There are never more than 13 heads in the flock. If anv are destroved. the witch makes an effort to replace them as soon as possible.  The heads serve as Mullonga’s spies throughout the Terrain Between, checking on the activities of dream spawn, wanderers, and even the other members of the Nightmare Court.  The heads specifically search for wanderers so that Mullonga can use them in her arcane experiments.  If she has no immediate use for a wanderer, he or she is cast into a dreamscape for safekeeping.

Ecology:  As supernatural creatures, arcane heads have no place in the natural order.  They feed on the flesh of physical beings, preferring the taste of live wanderers through they also sustain themselves with the flesh of lost souls created in the Terrain Between.

Orginally appeared in Nightmare Lands (1995).  This is the MCA3 reprint.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Note that Mullonga is a unique 13 HD creature.  We can convert her next.


----------



## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Should we perhaps boost the HD on the arcane heads to make them a bit more challenging for parties that are reasonably capable of taking on Mullonga.  At 2HD, 5 of them is likely to be only CR 5 or so.  

Tiny Undead, I suppose!


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

That's one option.  Another option that occurred to me is to genericize them to work with hags (any variety), and then make an underbar describing Mullonga's own bevy of arcane heads.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Seem pretty straightforward.

2HD Tiny Undead.

Flies at 50 ft. (average) - probably give it Hover as a bonus feat.

Bites for 1d6.

Has a special stunning "bash" attack, probably a charge.

Can summon their mistress.

Agree that we should generalize them to summon other hags. The 2HD version should probably just summon an Annis or Sea Hag.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

I'll also agree to making these work with generic hags and then an underbar to talk about advanced ones for Mullonga.

I don't think the bash is a charge.  It's pretty clear that it's a supernatural touch attack.

Need some kind of telepathy with their hag mistress, too.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'll also agree to making these work with generic hags and then an underbar to talk about advanced ones for Mullonga.
> 
> I don't think the bash is a charge.  It's pretty clear that it's a supernatural touch attack.




I agree it is a Su touch attack, I was thinking the "dive" would be like a charge attack - double move and then attack.



freyar said:


> Need some kind of telepathy with their hag mistress, too.




Maybe give them the equivalent of some *familiar* abilities, like Speak With Master or Scry on Familiar?


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Could work with the dive/charge.

I think I like a long range telepathic link rather than speak with master, but scry on familiar might do the trick.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We could give it a dive attack like we gave one of the tiny true dragons.

EDIT:  Found this one...

Deadly Dive (Ex): When a crow's-nest dragon dives at least 30 feet and makes a successful bite attack at the end of the dive, it deals an extra 1d4 points of damage. 

Telepathic link and "scry on familiar" sounds good.  An arcane head might also count as a hag eye for similar purposes.

Should it have the Su flight ability, like this?

Flight (Su): An arcane head can fly at a speed of 50 feet. This supernatural flight also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range. 

That way, if it passes through an antimagic field, it will drift to the ground and lay helpless.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> We could give it a dive attack like we gave one of the tiny true dragons.
> 
> ...




Something like that. I would rather give it a different name than "bash".

e.g.

*Stunning Dive (Su):* An arcane head can make a dive attack that stuns its opponent for X rounds if it makes a successful touch attack at the end of the dive. If the opponent succeeds at a DC Y [Fortitude?] save they are [sickened? dazzled?] for that duration instead of being stunned. The save DC is Charisma-based



Shade said:


> Telepathic link and "scry on familiar" sounds good.  An arcane head might also count as a hag eye for similar purposes.
> 
> Should it have the Su flight ability, like this?
> 
> ...




Yes, I was thinking of Supernatural Flight too.


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2010)

Cleon's dive and Su flight work for me.

Looking back at this


> The only sounds made by an arcane head are low, pathetic moans and the grinding of sharp teeth. It appears they can communicate with Mullonga in some way, but they do not speak or otherwise talk to their victims.



I wonder if I was too hasty about the telepathic link.  This very well could be speak with master and/or empathic link.  I still like scry on familiar, too.

Maybe these are variant hag familiars.  We could add in some other familiar abilities and allow a hag to have up to 13 of them.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cleon's dive and Su flight work for me.
> 
> Looking back at this
> 
> ...




So something like this:

Arcane heads understand Common buy can not speak. They are able to communicate with their creators through their _telepathic bond_.

*Telepathic Bond (Sp):* An arcane head can communicate telepathically with the hag that created it as per the spell _telepathic bond_ (caster level 10th). If this bond is _dispelled_ the head's mistress can restore it with a standard action, but the hag must be within 30 ft of the arcane head.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Since most hags use SLAs rather than being actual spellcasters (and thus won't have familiars), I find Cleon's telepathic bond preferable to familiar abilities.

Let's stick with the original duration of 1d4+1 rounds, and how about daze for the reduced effect?  Dazzled is usually more of a visual effect, and sickened somehow seems odd here.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since most hags use SLAs rather than being actual spellcasters (and thus won't have familiars), I find Cleon's telepathic bond preferable to familiar abilities.
> 
> Let's stick with the original duration of 1d4+1 rounds, and how about daze for the reduced effect?  Dazzled is usually more of a visual effect, and sickened somehow seems odd here.
> 
> Updated.




That's fine by me.

All that leaves is Summon Mistress. Something like:

*Summon Mistress (Sp):* A group of arcane heads can summon the hag that created them, but only if the hag wishes to be summoned. [Three?] or more heads fly in a circle for three rounds, tracing mystical patterns in the air. The hag then appears in the center of the circle as if transported by a _greater teleport_ spell. If a head is damaged or prevented from moving it is unable to contribute  to the summoning, but provided at least three arcane heads complete the  ritual without interruption the hag will appear. This is the equivalent of a 6th level spell (CL 13th).


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2010)

The original required 5 heads for summoning.  There's also the alternate ability to send a victim into a "dreamland."  Do we want to keep that, drop it completely, or make it something Mullonga can do but not an ordinary hag?  If we're keeping it, do we know anything about the dreamland?  Sounds something like a maze spell.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> The original required 5 heads for summoning.  There's also the alternate ability to send a victim into a "dreamland."  Do we want to keep that, drop it completely, or make it something Mullonga can do but not an ordinary hag?  If we're keeping it, do we know anything about the dreamland?  Sounds something like a maze spell.




Oops, how could I have missed the five heads. Better give the normal hag's version the same or worse (i.e. 7 heads?).

As for the sending to dreamland bit, I think the easiest approach would be to give Mullonga's arcane heads a "Summon or Dispatch Mullonga" supernatural ability that works like a greater teleport / plane shift that can bring Mullonga to _*or from*_ the heads, then allow Mullonga to transport a number of willing or helpless creatures with her when she uses it.

The "dreamlands" seem to be a pocket dimensions of some sort where Mullonga stashes her victims, so I'm guessing any creature capable of planar travel can escape them.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Oops, how could I have missed the five heads. Better give the normal hag's version the same or worse (i.e. 7 heads?).
> 
> As for the sending to dreamland bit, I think the easiest approach would be to give Mullonga's arcane heads a "Summon or Dispatch Mullonga" supernatural ability that works like a greater teleport / plane shift that can bring Mullonga to _*or from*_ the heads, then allow Mullonga to transport a number of willing or helpless creatures with her when she uses it.
> 
> The "dreamlands" seem to be a pocket dimensions of some sort where Mullonga stashes her victims, so I'm guessing any creature capable of planar travel can escape them.




Let's just stick with 5 heads all around.

The rest sounds like a good approach.

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

Why not give the normal once "dispatch mistress" also?  Then we can give Mullonga the ability to bring willing/helpless creatures with her.  We could also bump Mullonga's heads' ability to include plane shift.

Summon or Dispatch Mistress (Sp): A group of arcane heads can summon the hag that created them, but only if the hag wishes to be summoned. Five or more arcane heads fly in a circle for three rounds, tracing mystical patterns in the air. The hag then appears in the center of the circle as if transported by a greater teleport spell.  Alternately, if the hag mistress is already present, this ritual transports her to her previous location or another destination of her choosing (subject to the same restrictions as greater teleport).

If an arcane head is damaged or prevented from moving, it is unable to contribute to the summoning, but provided at least five arcane heads complete the ritual without interruption the hag will appear. This is the equivalent of a 6th level spell (CL 13th).


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Good idea!

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's just stick with 5 heads all around.
> 
> The rest sounds like a good approach.
> 
> Updated.




Looks fine.

Skills next. They seem to act as scouts and spies, so Spot, Hide and Listen.

Tumble to help them get within bite or bash range of an opponent?

Skills Ranks: Hide 5, Listen 5, Spot 5, Tumble 5 ?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Updated.

We could probably replace the Hide ranks if we have use for a different skill, since it already has an incredible modifier from size and Dex.  I'm fine with it, though.

It gets 1 more feat.   Skill Focus (Tumble)?


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

Can't think of any other skill they might particularly need, so let's keep Hide, at least for now.

Skill Focus (Tumble) works here.  Could go with Ability Focus if you want to bump the stunning dive.

CR 1, I guess.  They might be a weak CR 2, but their damage is pretty low and the DC on the stun isn't quite enough for the higher CR.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Can't think of any other skill they might particularly need, so let's keep Hide, at least for now.




Intimidate? They're probably pretty scary.



freyar said:


> Skill Focus (Tumble) works here.  Could go with Ability Focus if you want to bump the stunning dive.




Either of those would be alright, although I'm tempted by Alertness to improve their usefulness as scouts.



freyar said:


> CR 1, I guess.  They might be a weak CR 2, but their damage is pretty low and the DC on the stun isn't quite enough for the higher CR.




I consider CR 1 to be enough for them.


----------



## freyar (Oct 12, 2010)

Intimidate could work, though I don't feel like that fits their MO.  I think I prefer Hide.

Alertness works for me, actually.

CR 1 is fine.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Intimidate could work, though I don't feel like that fits their MO.  I think I prefer Hide.
> 
> Alertness works for me, actually.
> 
> CR 1 is fine.




Shall we use Hide and Alertness then.


----------



## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

Sure thing!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sure thing!




So we're changing it to:

Skills: Balance +7, Hide +18, Listen +8, Spot +8, Tumble +10
Feats: Alertness, Hover (B), Weapon Finesse (B)

Apart from that, we just need a weight (5 to 8 pounds?), some tactics and an Advancement - 3-4 HD (Tiny)?


----------



## freyar (Oct 18, 2010)

Weight and advancement sound ok to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Updated.

Shall we work on Mullonga's underbar?


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2010)

Sounds good.  Actually, in the "summon or dispatch mistress," shouldn't we change the "If an arcane head is damaged or prevented from moving..." to "If an arcane head is destroyed or prevented from moving"?

For Mullonga's heads, have them advance a bit?  Actually, now that I think about it, I'd like advancement to go a bit higher to let them get into a bit better CR range for Mullonga.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Shall we work on Mullonga's underbar?




For the heads? Sure.

I suggest giving them at least the maximum HD of a standard arcane head and preferably more - I'm thinking we should increase it to 6 HD.

Then I'd give them the elite stat array.

Head Racial Bonuses: Str -6, Dex +10, Con —, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2
Elite Array: 15 14 13 12 10 8

Str 14-6, Dex 15+10, Con —, Int 10+0, Wis 13+2, Cha 12+2

*Mullonga's Arcane Heads:* Str 8, Dex 25, Con —, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 14, Hit Dice 6d12 (39 hp).

They'll also need an improved (_greater teleport_ plus _plane shift_) version of Summon Mistress:

*Summon or Dispatch Mullonga (Sp):* A group of Mullonga's arcane heads can summon their mistress Mullonga, but only if the hag wishes to be summoned. Five  or more arcane heads fly in a circle for three rounds, tracing mystical  patterns in the air. Mullonga then appears in the center of the circle as  if transported by a greater teleport and/or plane shift spell. Alternately, if the hag  mistress is already present, this ritual transports her to her previous  location or another destination of her choosing (subject to the same  restrictions as greater teleport and plane shift).

If an arcane head of Mullonga is damaged or prevented from moving, it is unable to  contribute to the summoning, but provided at least five arcane heads  complete the ritual without interruption, Mullonga will appear. This is  the equivalent of a 7th level spell (CL 15th).


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2010)

Increasing to 6HD is good, though I might even allow a higher advancement.  Let's see.

Elite stats are a good idea.  But why bump the Str so much?   Put the 14 (or even 15) into Cha to boost the stunning dive DC and put the 12 into Str.

I'd also like to swap "damaged" for "destroyed" as mentioned above.  We also need to add something for Mullonga to take unwilling creatures with her.  Something like the bar-lguras have.


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

Are we simply going to state that they have x HD and an elite array (plus noting the different powers), or do we want a full stat block?  I'd prefer the former, since they won't be used very often.


----------



## freyar (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd like just listing the changes, too.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

freyar said:
			
		

> Increasing to 6HD is good, though I might even allow a higher advancement. Let's see.
> 
> Elite stats are a good idea. But why bump the Str so much? Put the 14 (or even 15) into Cha to boost the stunning dive DC and put the 12 into Str.




Agreed.  

Updated.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> We also need to add something for Mullonga to take unwilling creatures with her. Something like the bar-lguras have.




Let's save that ability for Mullonga herself (coming up next).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Increasing to 6HD is good, though I might even allow a higher advancement.  Let's see.
> 
> Elite stats are a good idea.  But why bump the Str so much?   Put the 14 (or even 15) into Cha to boost the stunning dive DC and put the 12 into Str.
> 
> I'd also like to swap "damaged" for "destroyed" as mentioned above.  We also need to add something for Mullonga to take unwilling creatures with her.  Something like the bar-lguras have.




That all sounds reasonable.

We don't need the unwilling creatures bit, since we can leave that for Mullonga herself.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

It looks like we're ready for Mullonga.  Here she is...

*Mullonga*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Nightmare Lands
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET:  Special
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6/2d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: M (5’ tall)
MORALE: fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 11,000

The aboriginal witch Mullonga is one of the most active members of the Nightmare Court.  She may look like an old woman who is so small as to be harmless, but she is evil and malicious.  She thrives on the fear and apprehension of others.

Mullonga appears as a hunched, leathery, brown-skinned old woman dressed in animal skins and carrying a gnarled staff.  Her flesh looks as if it has been parched in the hottest desert, beneath a blazing, unforgiving sun.  As no visible sun shines over the Nightmare Lands, perhaps it is the pure evil that emanates from this witch that withers her flesh so.

Her connection to the dream plane gives Mullonga access to many languages, all of which are spoken with a voice as dry and brittle as a mummy’s wrappings.

Mullonga often attempts to insinuate herself into a company of wanderers, using illusions to cast herself as a mage lost in the mists.  If she is accepted into a company, she begins to sow false information.  She does this in an effort to create fear in the wanderers—fear she can later use in dreams.

If forced into physical conflict, Mullonga’s gnarled hands become grotesquely extended claws that can strike twice in a round an inflict 2d6 points of damage each.  While she has no problem with personally spilling blood, she prefers to use spells or minions to handle most victims.

Mullonga has the arcane powers of a 13th-level wizard, though her connection to the dream plane allows her to cast spells in an instant; she has no need of material, somatic, or verbal components.  Further, she does not memorize spells in the same manner as mortal wizards.

Mullonga pulls her spells from the dream web, so she can fill up her spell selection in one hour.  She needs to return to a secure location in the Ghettoes and make physical contact with her relic, so those she is terrorizing may rest a short period while she is thus engaged. 

The witch normally has the following lists of spells ready, but can choose from all spells available to her experience level.
1st level—burning hands, change self, chill touch, hypnotism, magic missile;
2nd level—alter self, blindness, ESP, scare, spectral hand;
3rd level—delude, fireball, hold person, protection from good 10 feet radius, slow;
4th level—confusino, Evard’s black tentacles, fear, polymorph self;
5th level—chaos, distance distortion, shadow magic, summon shadow;
6th level—invisible stalker, permanent illusion.

Mullonga is served by ennui, arcane heads, and a variety of golems and other arcane creations.

Habitat/Society:  Mullonga controls the Ghettoes in the City of Nod.  The shifting streets of this roving neighborhood are an extension of the witch.  See the rules book for more information.

In the Ghettoes, Mullonga has a number of workshops where she can conduct her arcane experiments.  These experiments have seen the creation of the arcane heads and other terrors that now serve the witch.  Of course, the Ghettoes are also haunted by things that did not turn out the way the witch had planned.

Ecology:  Mullonga thrives on fear, and her dream-scapes are sinister, terror-filled locations.  In the Terrain Between, she constantly searches for wanderers to fuel her arcane <text missing herafter>

Orginally appeared in Nightmare Lands (1995).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> It looks like we're ready for Mullonga.  Here she is...




Mullonga's Arcane Head's still have a question mark after their 10 HD advancement. I feel 10 HD is a bit high, so how about 8 HD, twice the max HD of a standard head?



Shade said:


> *Mullonga*




Base her on a boosted SRD Night Hag? Night Hag stats with +6 Int & Cha, +4 Wis?

*Mullonga:* Str 19, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 18

13th level wizard or sorcerer?


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> 13th level wizard or sorcerer?




Reading the entry more closely, a wizard with Automatic Quicken Spell seems the closest.

That's pretty meaty, so how about increasing her HD and spellcaster level?



> her connection to the dream plane allows her to cast spells in an  instant; she has no need of material, somatic, or verbal components.   Further, she does not memorize spells in the same manner as mortal  wizards.
> 
> Mullonga pulls her spells from the dream web, so she can fill up her spell selection in one hour.




*Spell Casting (Sp):* Mullonga casts spells as a 13th [higher? 26th?] level wizard. All spells Mullonga casts are automatically quickened and do not require somatic, material or verbal components, as per the Eschew Material Components, Silent Spell, Still Spell and Automatic Quicken Spell feats. She draws her spellcasting power from an artifact called the dream web, Mullonga need only rest for 1 hour and make physical contact with this artifact to fill up her entire spell selection.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2010)

I agree with most of that.  We can probably leave out the "as the feats..." bit.

And I assume we're going with Outsider here, right?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I agree with most of that.  We can probably leave out the "as the feats..." bit.
> 
> And I assume we're going with Outsider here, right?




Yes, since she lives on the Dream Plane most of the time.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




What about my suggestion of giving her a power boost?

13th level and 17-19 mental stats are a lot less impressive in 3E than they were in AD&D.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm fine with that.  We just need to take care to make sure she doesn't too greatly outclass her usual servants.   

We already have the arcane heads for reference.

We haven't converted ennui, but according to Echohawk's index, the Denizens of Dread book pegs 'em at CR 6.

Her other servants, "a variety of golems and other arcane creations", allows for a wide range of CR possibilities.


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with that.  We just need to take care to make sure she doesn't too greatly outclass her usual servants.
> 
> We already have the arcane heads for reference.
> 
> ...




Well let's stick to 13th level for the time being, then a 6HD arcane head will be a worthwhile minion.

I'm having second thoughts about "fill up her entire spell selection" in her spells entry, "regain her entire spell selection" seems better.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Agreed.  "Regain" sounds more game-termy.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  "Regain" sounds more game-termy.




Now that's settled, shall we talk about her spell selection? She's short a 6th level and 7th level spell.

She seems more interested in capturing victims than killing them, so she probably wouldn't have deadly spells such as _disintegrate_ or _circle of death_.

What about _flesh to stone_ for the 6th level spell and _mass hold person_ for the 7th?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Updated.

I filled in the 0-level spells--feel free to offer alternatives.

Any other special abilities before moving on to skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I filled in the 0-level spells--feel free to offer alternatives.
> 
> Any other special abilities before moving on to skills and feats?




Swap the _message_ for something else? She probably prefers to use her arcane heads to send messages.

Maybe _detect poison_?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

Sounds good.

Any other special abilities before moving on to skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Any other special abilities before moving on to skills and feats?




Well there are a few hints for special abilities, but nothing spelled out.

"Mullonga often attempts to insinuate herself into a company of wanderers, using illusions to cast herself as a mage lost in the mists." suggests a _disguise self_ type ability.

Then there's the "Mullonga thrives on fear" and her trying to sow false information "to create fear in the wanderers—fear she can later use in dreams".

So, she's somehow able to extract power from the afraid and use it to work some kind of dream magic.

Finally, there's mention of her creating "dream scapes" and "Mullonga controls the Ghettoes in the City of Nod. The shifting streets of this roving neighborhood are an extension of the witch. See the rules book for more information."

So, she cam reshape the terrain of her "nightmare land" and might be aware of what's going on in it? Possible can create objects in the dreamscape as well.

Maybe allows for effects resembling _guards and wards_, _hallucinatory terrain_ and _shadow conjuration_?


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Cleon said:


> "Mullonga often attempts to insinuate herself into a company of wanderers, using illusions to cast herself as a mage lost in the mists." suggests a _disguise self_ type ability.




I assumed she'd use her spells for that.   That said, I'm not opposed to a disguise self SLA.



Cleon said:


> Then there's the "Mullonga thrives on fear" and her trying to sow false information "to create fear in the wanderers—fear she can later use in dreams".
> 
> So, she's somehow able to extract power from the afraid and use it to work some kind of dream magic.




Interesting.  Maybe all her spells are treated as empowered if she is within 30 feet of a creature suffering from a fear condition?   It improves to maximized if x or more/the condition is panicked or greater?



Cleon said:


> Finally, there's mention of her creating "dream scapes" and "Mullonga controls the Ghettoes in the City of Nod. The shifting streets of this roving neighborhood are an extension of the witch. See the rules book for more information."
> 
> So, she cam reshape the terrain of her "nightmare land" and might be aware of what's going on in it? Possible can create objects in the dreamscape as well.
> 
> Maybe allows for effects resembling _guards and wards_, _hallucinatory terrain_ and _shadow conjuration_?




And don't forget _maze_.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I assumed she'd use her spells for that.   That said, I'm not opposed to a disguise self SLA.




I don't mind either way.



Shade said:


> Interesting.  Maybe all her spells are treated as empowered if she is within 30 feet of a creature suffering from a fear condition?   It improves to maximized if x or more/the condition is panicked or greater?




That might not come in effect that often, I would rather her spells have an increased effect when cast on a creature with a fear condition (shaken, frightened or panicked).



Shade said:


> And don't forget _maze_.




Well _maze_ would take it too high-level for me, but if you really want it...


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

Funny, I took the dreaming bit to be some modified form of a night hag's dream haunting, perhaps that she can only use on creature's she's frightened.  I have some other thoughts, but I need to get them together...

EDIT: Here they are.  I'd say that she can only use her dream haunting ability (maybe boosted by some effects of nightmare, too?) on creatures that she's caused to become shaken/frightened/panicked in the last day or two, and I'd give her the ability to increase fear a step in any creature she talks to for long enough.  

I also like the increased spell effects.  I like Cleon's idea that it's dependent on a target, but I think it might be hard to adjudicate (what about area-effect spells, since she prepares fireball after all?).  What if we go with Shade's idea but increase the range?

As for the Ghettoes, maze or not is ok with me.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Funny, I took the dreaming bit to be some modified form of a night hag's dream haunting, perhaps that she can only use on creature's she's frightened.  I have some other thoughts, but I need to get them together...
> 
> EDIT: Here they are.  I'd say that she can only use her dream haunting ability (maybe boosted by some effects of nightmare, too?) on creatures that she's caused to become shaken/frightened/panicked in the last day or two, and I'd give her the ability to increase fear a step in any creature she talks to for long enough.




I like it!



freyar said:


> I also like the increased spell effects.  I like Cleon's idea that it's dependent on a target, but I think it might be hard to adjudicate (what about area-effect spells, since she prepares fireball after all?).  What if we go with Shade's idea but increase the range?




I'll go for that.



freyar said:


> As for the Ghettoes, maze or not is ok with me.




Same here.  I just threw the idea out there, but if it's too powerful, so be it.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like it!




So do I, let's go for the "dream haunting the frightened" approach and see where it takes us.



Shade said:


> I'll go for that.




Could you rough it out as a SA writeup? I'm not clear what we're talking about here.



Shade said:


> Same here.  I just threw the idea out there, but if it's too powerful, so be it.




I'd rather lose the _maze_.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2010)

I'll rough both those ideas out later today or tomorrow, got to run off now.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2010)

Consider the maze dropped, and we'll await freyar's other writeups.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok, here goes (Terrify is modified from the Harangue we gave the ash mephit; if we stick to Sp, I think we need an equivalent spell level):

Terrify (Su/Sp): Mullonga can spook creatures that understand her speech with a lengthy recitation of ghost stories or other frightening tales, often about missing travelers. The subjects must make a DC X Will save or become engrossed in conversation with Mullonga as if fascinated. After 10 minutes??, if Mullonga still speaks, each subject must make an additional DC X Will save or become shaken (already shaken characters become frightened and already frightened characters become panicked).  Frightened or panicked subjects of Mullonga's terrify ability do not flee from her, not seeing her as the cause of their fear; they do however flee or fight any attackers.  This fear decreases by one step each hour after Mullonga ceases using this ability.  This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma based.

Frightful Casting (Su): If Mullonga casts any spell within 60 ft? of a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked), that spell is automatically empowered.  If the creature is frightened, the spell is automatically maximized, and, if the creature is panicked, the spell is maximized and empowered.

Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. Once Mullonga invades someone’s dreams, she enters a trance that appears to be sleep until the victim awakes. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1 point of Constitution drain upon awakening. CHANGE PENALTIES?  ADD SOME WAY TO BREAK THE CONNECTION?

I think this at least gives her reason to hang around adventuring parties.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, here goes (Terrify is modified from the Harangue we gave the ash mephit; if we stick to Sp, I think we need an equivalent spell level):
> 
> Terrify (Su/Sp): Mullonga can spook creatures that understand her speech with a lengthy recitation of ghost stories or other frightening tales, often about missing travelers. The subjects must make a DC X Will save or become engrossed in conversation with Mullonga as if fascinated. After 10 minutes??, if Mullonga still speaks, each subject must make an additional DC X Will save or become shaken (already shaken characters become frightened and already frightened characters become panicked).  Frightened or panicked subjects of Mullonga's terrify ability do not flee from her, not seeing her as the cause of their fear; they do however flee or fight any attackers.  This fear decreases by one step each hour after Mullonga ceases using this ability.  This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma based.




I like this!

Can't see anything wrong with the mechanics, except I might increase the duration a bit otherwise she'd have to tell "bed time stories" to use Dream Haunting.

I'd prefer Su over Sp.



freyar said:


> Frightful Casting (Su): If Mullonga casts any spell within 60 ft? of a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked), that spell is automatically empowered.  If the creature is frightened, the spell is automatically maximized, and, if the creature is panicked, the spell is maximized and empowered.




Well the basic approach is good, but (a) the empowered/maximized/empowered+maximized approach seems too much, especially as her spells are already auto-quickened, and (b) I'd rather it had a stronger effect on targets with those conditions as well.

So, something like this:
*Frightful Casting (Su):* Mullonga uses fear to strengthen her spells. Whenever there is a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked) within 60 ft. of Mullonga the DCs of all her spells increase by +1. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Spell Focus type feats.

Furthermore, if she casts a spell upon a creature with a fear condition who is within 60 ft. of Mullonga the spell's DC increases by +2 instead, if the creature is frightened the  spell is also automatically empowered, and, if the creature is panicked, the  spell is automatically maximized.​


freyar said:


> Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. Once Mullonga invades someone’s dreams, she enters a trance that appears to be sleep until the victim awakes. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1 point of Constitution drain upon awakening. CHANGE PENALTIES?  ADD SOME WAY TO BREAK THE CONNECTION?
> 
> I think this at least gives her reason to hang around adventuring parties.




Not sure about this approach. She'd be very vulnerable in a trance. I'd rather the remain conscious and become incorporeal or ethereal while "Dream Haunting". Can't we just modify a Night Hag's dream haunting like I suggested earlier?

I'd consider increasing the damage a bit, since Nightmares are her thing. 

1d3 Con drain? 1 Con plus 1 level of energy drain?

Does she get any advantage from using Dream Haunting? Something a bit more interesting than the standard temporary hit points, like a spell casting boost or "virtual XPs" she can invest in magical objects or sculpting the Nightmare Lands?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Dream Haunting (Su):* Night hags can visit the dreams of chaotic or evil individuals by using a special periapt known as a heartstone to become ethereal, then hovering over the creature. Once a hag invades someone’s dreams, it rides on the victim’s back until dawn. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1 point of Constitution drain upon awakening. Only another ethereal being can stop these nocturnal intrusions, by confronting and defeating the night hag.




e.g.:
*Dream Haunting (Su):* Mullonga can visit the dreams of a sleeping individual currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. Mullonga must be ethereal to invades  someone's dreams, and can then inflict horrible nightmares on the victim until dawn. The tormented sleeper takes *[1d3 Con, 1 Con + 1 level?]* drain  upon awakening. Only another ethereal being can stop these nocturnal  intrusions, by confronting and defeating Mullonga. Every time Mullonga uses dream haunting she gains *["virtual XPs?"]*.​


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I like this!
> 
> Can't see anything wrong with the mechanics, except I might increase the duration a bit otherwise she'd have to tell "bed time stories" to use Dream Haunting.
> 
> I'd prefer Su over Sp.




Agreed to all that.


Cleon said:


> Well the basic approach is good, but (a) the empowered/maximized/empowered+maximized approach seems too much, especially as her spells are already auto-quickened, and (b) I'd rather it had a stronger effect on targets with those conditions as well.
> 
> So, something like this:
> *Frightful Casting (Su):* Mullonga uses fear to strengthen her spells. Whenever there is a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked) within 60 ft. of Mullonga the DCs of all her spells increase by +1. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Spell Focus type feats.
> ...




That looks pretty decent.  I'm not sure we need the additional DC boost for the second paragraph; the empowered/maximized seems good enough.



Cleon said:


> Not sure about this approach. She'd be very vulnerable in a trance. I'd rather the remain conscious and become incorporeal or ethereal while "Dream Haunting". Can't we just modify a Night Hag's dream haunting like I suggested earlier?
> 
> I'd consider increasing the damage a bit, since Nightmares are her thing.
> 
> ...




I like all this except the "virtual XPs".  Too much bookkeeping for my tastes.  Perhaps an additional one-use spell slot instead?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.
> 
> That looks pretty decent.  I'm not sure we need the additional DC boost for the second paragraph; the empowered/maximized seems good enough.




No objection to cutting it out.



Shade said:


> I like all this except the "virtual XPs".  Too much bookkeeping for my tastes.  Perhaps an additional one-use spell slot instead?




What level spell slot? It wouldn't feel right to give her a 6th level spell for giving nightmares to a 1st level Commoner.

Alternatively, Mullonga could get a +1 enhancement bonus to casting level for, say, 1 hour per HD of the victim she dream-drains.

Wouldn't that be easier to keep track off?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Wouldn't that be easier to keep track off?




Yep.  Good suggestion.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2010)

Regarding frightful casting, I don't mind Cleon's suggestion (with or without the extra +2 DC bonus, though I agree that it might be a bit much), but it gets right back to the problem I had before.  That is, what does it mean to cast an area effect spell "upon" a creature with a fear condition?  We have her preparing fireball on a regular basis, after all.  I just don't like that wording.

Also, the reason I didn't go with the normal night hag's dream haunting with etherealness is that Mullonga currently doesn't have a way to turn ethereal (other than by spells, which would seem limiting here).  So how do we want to deal with that?


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

What if we reworded it like so?

Frightful Casting (Su): Mullonga uses fear to strengthen her spells. Whenever a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked) is within 60 ft. of Mullonga, the DCs of all her spells increase by +1. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Spell Focus and similar feats.

Furthermore, if a creature with a fear condition is targeted by Mullonga, or caught within the area of one of Mullonga's spells, the DC of that spell increases by an additional +1.  If the creature is frightened, the spell is also automatically empowered (as per the Empower Spell feat).  If the creature is panicked, the spell is automatically maximized (as per the Maximize Spell feat).  If more than one creature within the spell's area of effect possesses a fear condition, use the most debilitating condition to determine the effect on Mullonga's spell.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2010)

That would work for me.

What are we doing re: dream haunting now?


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Also, the reason I didn't go with the normal night  hag's dream haunting with etherealness is that Mullonga currently  doesn't have a way to turn ethereal (other than by spells, which would  seem limiting here).  So how do we want to deal with that?




Well I'd just give her Plane Shift.



Shade said:


> What if we reworded it like so?
> 
> Frightful Casting (Su): Mullonga uses fear to strengthen her spells. Whenever a creature with any fear condition (shaken, frightened, or panicked) is within 60 ft. of Mullonga, the DCs of all her spells increase by +1. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Spell Focus and similar feats.
> 
> Furthermore, if a creature with a fear condition is targeted by Mullonga, or caught within the area of one of Mullonga's spells, the DC of that spell increases by an additional +1.  If the creature is frightened, the spell is also automatically empowered (as per the Empower Spell feat).  If the creature is panicked, the spell is automatically maximized (as per the Maximize Spell feat).  If more than one creature within the spell's area of effect possesses a fear condition, use the most debilitating condition to determine the effect on Mullonga's spell.




I'm fine with that as-is.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm not getting the plane shift from her in the original text; doesn't she need the arcane heads to get around (other than through preparing a spell, that is?).


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not getting the plane shift from her in the original text; doesn't she need the arcane heads to get around (other than through preparing a spell, that is?).




How about Mullonga's arcane heads _plane shift_ her to the Ethereal?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How about Mullonga's arcane heads _plane shift_ her to the Ethereal?




That seems a bit...wrong...to require the use of her minions in order to use one of her signature abilities.

Rather than plane shift, maybe ethereal jaunt?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

Well, if we're going to say she's some kind of unique night hag, ethereal jaunt is reasonable.  It's not in the original monster, but I can be flexible.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems a bit...wrong...to require the use of her minions in order to use one of her signature abilities.
> 
> Rather than plane shift, maybe ethereal jaunt?




Isn't there something in the original about her dumping her victims into individual dream-realms where she can torment them? That would suggest she has some sort of Astral travel and pocket-plane creation ability.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

The real problem I've got is that she uses her arcane heads for plane shifting mostly; if we give her something like plane shift (or maybe even ethereal jaunt), it makes the heads' ability a little pointless.

That reminds me, though, we need to give Mullonga something like the bar lgura has in concert with the heads.

Here's a compromise solution on the dream haunting:
Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening.  Mullonga gains X BENEFIT for every hour??? that she haunts a victim's dreams, but she is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, and takes X DAMAGE if she is haunting a victim who awakens.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> The real problem I've got is that she uses her arcane heads for plane shifting mostly; if we give her something like plane shift (or maybe even ethereal jaunt), it makes the heads' ability a little pointless.




Well the main point of the arcane heads' plane shifting is they use it to summon her to them, but I agree I would prefer to keep its specialness by not giving her an ethereal jaunt or plane shift supernatural ability.



freyar said:


> That reminds me, though, we need to give Mullonga something like the bar lgura has in concert with the heads.
> 
> Here's a compromise solution on the dream haunting:
> 
> Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening.  Mullonga gains X BENEFIT for every hour??? that she haunts a victim's dreams, but she is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, and takes X DAMAGE if she is haunting a victim who awakens.




Works for me.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

Ok, then let's figure out the benefits and damages.  I think temp hp are too silly/tame of a benefit.  How about it lets her use frightful casting for an hour each hour that she haunts a victim's dreams?  We could even drop the troublesome aspects about having a frightened creature nearby or targeted if we want.  Damage could just be a standard Xd8 or something.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, then let's figure out the benefits and damages.  I think temp hp are too silly/tame of a benefit.  How about it lets her use frightful casting for an hour each hour that she haunts a victim's dreams?  We could even drop the troublesome aspects about having a frightened creature nearby or targeted if we want.  Damage could just be a standard Xd8 or something.




What about the caster level boost I suggested earlier?


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Could work too.  Just not sure if that's quite enough.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

Caster level *and* frightful casting appeals.

Is it possible for a victim to sleep while possessing a fear condition?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2010)

Perhaps we could revised the wording a bit.  Want to take a crack at it, Shade?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Caster level *and* frightful casting appeals.




I can go along with that.



Shade said:


> Is it possible for a victim to sleep while possessing a fear condition?




Well I can imagine they can sleep when shaken, and maybe someone who's frightened could sleep if they're _really_ tired. Panic sleeping is probably stretching it, though.


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Attempting to revise...

Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level and may use her frightful casting each hour that she haunts a victim's dreams, and the victim allows Mullonga to meet the requirments of the ability.  Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, and takes xd8 damage if she is haunting a victim who awakens.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

Revising a little more:

Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level and may use her frightful casting for a full hour after ending the dream haunting for each hour that she haunts a victim's dreams.  Effectively, the victim counts as a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft of Mullonga (to meet the requirments of her frightful casting ability). Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, and takes xd8 damage if she is haunting a victim who awakens.  Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.

Since the SRD doesn't seem to address sleeping with a fear condition, should we make some specific comment in Terrify and revision to Dream Haunting?

BTW, I think homebrews could use an update, and she's sure taking a while!


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

freyar said:
			
		

> Since the SRD doesn't seem to address sleeping with a fear condition, should we make some specific comment in Terrify and revision to Dream Haunting?




Yeah, probably so.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> BTW, I think homebrews could use an update, and she's sure taking a while!




She sure is!

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2010)

Want to put Terrify in the homebrews entry, too?  Maybe state that shaken creatures sleep/trance normally, frightened ones can sleep if they make a DC X Will save but have a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen or other checks to awaken, and panicked creatures can't sleep either at all or without a DC X+5 save?


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Revising a little more:
> 
> Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level and may use her frightful casting for a full hour after ending the dream haunting for each hour that she haunts a victim's dreams.  Effectively, the victim counts as a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft of Mullonga (to meet the requirments of her frightful casting ability). Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, and takes xd8 damage if she is haunting a victim who awakens.  Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.




Hmm, I think this bit could do with some rephrasing:

Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level and may use her frightful  casting for a full hour after ending the dream haunting for each hour  that she haunts a victim's dreams.  Effectively, the victim counts as a  creature with a fear condition within 60 ft of Mullonga (to meet the  requirments of her frightful casting ability).

Something like.

After ending the dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level for a full hour for each hour she spent haunting her victim's dreams. Furthermore, for the duration of this CL bonus the dream haunting victim always meets the requirements of Mullonga's frightful casting ability (as if the victim was a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft. of Mullonga)


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2010)

That works for me.

Hey, if she's expelled and takes damage (how much, anyway?) do we want to say she forfeits the CL bonus, etc?


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> That works for me.
> 
> Hey, if she's expelled and takes damage (how much, anyway?) do we want to say she forfeits the CL bonus, etc?




Rather not have Mullonga take damage when expelled, prefer having her disorientated for a few rounds (maybe shaken? That would be ironic).

Agree she should lose the CL bonus.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Rather not have Mullonga take damage when expelled, prefer having her disorientated for a few rounds (maybe shaken? That would be ironic).




That would be delightfully ironic.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2010)

Ok, revising again:

Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. After ending the dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level for a full hour for each hour she spent haunting her victim's dreams. Furthermore, for the duration of this CL bonus the dream haunting victim always meets the requirements of Mullonga's frightful casting ability (as if the victim was a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft. of Mullonga).   Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, loses her CL bonus, and becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds if she is haunting a victim who awakens. Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.

Shade, can you add Terrify to the homebrews version?  And let's decide on sleeping when scared.  I had a proposal in post #863.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

Wow, terrify was _waaaaaaay_ back!  Sorry I missed it for so long.

Updated.

As for this:



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe state that shaken creatures sleep/trance normally, frightened ones can sleep if they make a DC X Will save but have a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen or other checks to awaken, and panicked creatures can't sleep either at all or without a DC X+5 save?




I have no objections.  Cleon?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

One question to ask about that proposal is if panicked creatures should be able to sleep at all.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> One question to ask about that proposal is if panicked creatures should be able to sleep at all.




It seems a bit preposterous.  Presumably, all that panic would lead one to eventually collapse from exhaustion, and then lose the fear condition.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Let's then modify Terrify as follows and remove "panicked" from Dream Haunting.  The only question would be the save DC for frightened creatures to sleep.  I picked DC 20 somewhat arbitrarily.

Terrify (Su): Mullonga can spook creatures that understand her speech with a lengthy recitation of ghost stories or other frightening tales, often about missing travelers. The subjects must make a DC 20 Will save or become engrossed in conversation with Mullonga as if fascinated. After 10 minutes, if Mullonga still speaks, each subject must make an additional DC 20 Will save or become shaken (already shaken characters become frightened and already frightened characters become panicked). Frightened or panicked subjects of Mullonga's terrify ability do not flee from her, not seeing her as the cause of their fear; they do however flee or fight any attackers. This fear decreases by one step each hour after Mullonga ceases using this ability. Shaken creatures can trance or sleep normally, but frightened creatures must first succeed on a DC 20 Will save (and receive a +2 circumstance bonus to Listen checks to awaken).  Panicked creatures cannot sleep or trance at all.  This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


I also wonder if we should make Terrify increase character's fear level after each subsequent 10 minutes.  Somehow that's what I'd remembered, anyway.


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's then modify Terrify as follows and remove "panicked" from Dream Haunting.  The only question would be the save DC for frightened creatures to sleep.  I picked DC 20 somewhat arbitrarily.
> 
> Terrify (Su): Mullonga can spook creatures that understand her speech with a lengthy recitation of ghost stories or other frightening tales, often about missing travelers. The subjects must make a DC 20 Will save or become engrossed in conversation with Mullonga as if fascinated. After 10 minutes, if Mullonga still speaks, each subject must make an additional DC 20 Will save or become shaken (already shaken characters become frightened and already frightened characters become panicked). Frightened or panicked subjects of Mullonga's terrify ability do not flee from her, not seeing her as the cause of their fear; they do however flee or fight any attackers. This fear decreases by one step each hour after Mullonga ceases using this ability. Shaken creatures can trance or sleep normally, but frightened creatures must first succeed on a DC 20 Will save (and receive a +2 circumstance bonus to Listen checks to awaken).  Panicked creatures cannot sleep or trance at all.  This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> 
> I also wonder if we should make Terrify increase character's fear level after each subsequent 10 minutes.  Somehow that's what I'd remembered, anyway.




Well the sleep restrictions seem counterintuitive since Mullonga wants them to sleep so she can molest them in their dreams. I could live with it, though.

As for increasing the fear levels, just have them make saves every 10 minutes and have the fear levels stack.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2010)

I sort of agree, but we had this whole conversation upthread about how illogical it would be for panicked creatures to be albe to sleep!


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, revising again:
> 
> Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. After ending the dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level for a full hour for each hour she spent haunting her victim's dreams. Furthermore, for the duration of this CL bonus the dream haunting victim always meets the requirements of Mullonga's frightful casting ability (as if the victim was a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft. of Mullonga).   Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, loses her CL bonus, and becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds if she is haunting a victim who awakens. Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.
> 
> Shade, can you add Terrify to the homebrews version?  And let's decide on sleeping when scared.  I had a proposal in post #863.




I don't much like the sentence structure of the bit about expelling Mullonga.

Is this better?:

* Dream Haunting (Su):* Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping  individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify  ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and  enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and  takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. After ending the  dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level for a full  hour for each hour she spent haunting her victim's dreams. Furthermore,  for the duration of this CL bonus the dream haunting victim always  meets the requirements of Mullonga's frightful casting ability (as if  the victim was a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft. of  Mullonga). If the victim awakens while being dream haunted,   Mullonga is automatically expelled,  becomes corporeal, loses her CL bonus, and becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds. Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2010)

That works fine.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> That works fine.




Good!

I'm not sure about the "full" in "After ending the dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster  level for a full hour for each hour she spent haunting her victim's  dreams".

Should it be removed ("for an hour for each hour") or put with the second hour ("for an hour for each full hour")?

Currently I prefer the latter.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Currently I prefer the latter.




As do I.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

Sure, let's go with that.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> As do I.




So make it so!


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

Here you go:

Dream Haunting (Su): Mullonga can visit the dreams of sleeping individuals currently shaken, frightened, or panicked by her terrify ability. To invade someone’s dreams, Mullonga can become incorporeal and enter the victim's body. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1d3 points of Constitution drain upon awakening. After ending the dream haunting Mullonga gains a +1 bonus to her caster level for one hour for each full hour she spent haunting her victim's dreams. Furthermore, for the duration of this CL bonus the dream haunting victim always meets the requirements of Mullonga's frightful casting ability (as if the victim was a creature with a fear condition within 60 ft. of Mullonga). If the victim awakens while being dream haunted, Mullonga is automatically expelled, becomes corporeal, loses her CL bonus, and becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds. Mullonga does not have the inherent ability to become incorporeal except to haunt a victim's dreams.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

Updated.

DR 10/magic?

Skills: 11 at 16 ranks
Bluff 16, Concentration 16, Disguise 16, Hide 8, Intimidate 16, Knowledge (arcana) 16, Knowledge (the planes) 16, Listen 16, Move Silently 8, Spellcraft 16, Spot 16, Use Magic Device 16?

Feats: 5
Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (Necromancy)...


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

Maybe make it DR 10/good, since magic is probably pretty worthless at her power level.  Skills seem good.

Maybe Quicken Spell?  Or a couple of item crafting feats?  Those might seem thematically appropriate.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe make it DR 10/good, since magic is probably pretty worthless at her power level.  Skills seem good.




Giving her 10/good is certainly a much better fit than /magic along, but I'd rather go for 10/good and magic.



freyar said:


> Maybe Quicken Spell?  Or a couple of item crafting feats?  Those might seem thematically appropriate.




SF and maybe GSF (enchantment) would suit me better.

Besides, can't she can create stuff out of dreams or something? That suggests she might be able to use Item Creation feats as bonus feats.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

DR 10/good and magic is ok.

So have two SF/GSF pairs?  I guess that works.  

As far as bonus crafting feats, I think we need to go back and look at her interaction with her dream web a bit more.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> DR 10/good and magic is ok.
> 
> So have two SF/GSF pairs?  I guess that works.




Let's go for the double GSF approach then.



freyar said:


> As far as bonus crafting feats, I think we need to go back and look at her interaction with her dream web a bit more.




Take your time.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe Quicken Spell?  Or a couple of item crafting feats?  Those might seem thematically appropriate.




By the way, Quicken Spell is superfluous - Mullonga already automatically quickens all spells she casts.



> Spells: Mullonga casts spells as a 13th-level wizard.  All spells  Mullonga casts are *automatically quickened* and do not require somatic,  material or verbal components. Since Mullonga draws her spellcasting  power from an artifact called the dream web, Mullonga need only rest for  1 hour and make physical contact with this artifact to regain her  entire spell selection.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> By the way, Quicken Spell is superfluous - Mullonga already automatically quickens all spells she casts.



Forgot about automatic quickening.  Thanks for the catch.

But isn't the bit about the dream web and the ghettoes something we should get into as a new ability?  







> Mullonga controls the Ghettoes in the City of Nod. The shifting streets of this roving neighborhood are an extension of the witch. See the rules book for more information.
> 
> In the Ghettoes, Mullonga has a number of workshops where she can conduct her arcane experiments. These experiments have seen the creation of the arcane heads and other terrors that now serve the witch. Of course, the Ghettoes are also haunted by things that did not turn out the way the witch had planned.



  Definitely seems to imply crafting feats, but do those workshops and her connection to the region give her some bonus?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2010)

Updated.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> But isn't the bit about the dream web and the ghettoes something we should get into as a new ability?




I thought we'd discussed leaving it as flavor text, but we can revisit the matter.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> But isn't the bit about the dream web and the ghettoes something we should get into as a new ability?    Definitely seems to imply crafting feats, but do those workshops and her connection to the region give her some bonus?




I'm reluctant to do that since (a) it looks like something that'd be hard to quantify, (b) it's more like a set of resources  possessed by Mullonga than a power, and (c) I suspect it'll work better as a "whatever the plot requires" asset.

So, I'm thinking we'd be better off with some flavour text based on a Plane with the divinely morphic trait:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> _*Divinely Morphic*_
> Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the  ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with  this trait. Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable  planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort. But  the deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically,  creating great kingdoms for themselves.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

Flavor with hints of "divinely morphic" sounds ok.  I guess the same would be true of the dream web artifact.  Do you both agree to Crafting feats.  Standard bonuses for having the workshops, or do you want to make them more powerful somehow?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Flavor with hints of "divinely morphic" sounds ok.  I guess the same would be true of the dream web artifact.  Do you both agree to Crafting feats.  Standard bonuses for having the workshops, or do you want to make them more powerful somehow?




I like the divinely morphic bits.  I'm not really keen on giving her Item Creation feats.  She mostly seems to whip up monsters and mutations.  I'd rather we give her another ability to create "stuff".


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like the divinely morphic bits. I'm not really keen on giving her Item Creation feats. She mostly seems to whip up monsters and mutations. I'd rather we give her another ability to create "stuff".



Since it's almost Christmas, would the "Item Master" ability you gave Santa Claus work?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Since it's almost Christmas, would the "Item Master" ability you gave Santa Claus work?




Ho ho ho, that's a jolly idea!  

Item Master (Ex): Santa Claus can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. He can also create any item or construct as though he had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ho ho ho, that's a jolly idea!
> 
> Item Master (Ex): Santa Claus can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. He can also create any item or construct as though he had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.




That approach looks ideal.

I'd add "Undead" to "Construct" since she makes flying heads, lost souls and such.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That approach looks ideal.
> 
> I'd add "Undead" to "Construct" since she makes flying heads, lost souls and such.




We might need to expand the ability a bit to allow for undead, as they aren't created in quite the same manner as constructs and items.

Mistress of Creation (Su):  Mullonga can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. She can also create any item or construct as though she had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.  Mullonga can also create undead as if using any spell capable of undead creation, such as _animate dead_ or _create greater undead_, provided she has the necessary corpses.


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> We might need to expand the ability a bit to allow for undead, as they aren't created in quite the same manner as constructs and items.
> 
> Mistress of Creation (Su):  Mullonga can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. She can also create any item or construct as though she had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.  Mullonga can also create undead as if using any spell capable of undead creation, such as _animate dead_ or _create greater undead_, provided she has the necessary corpses.




Looks good.

It doesn't really need the "provided she has the necessary corpses" bit since she'd create them as per whatever Necromantic spell she employs, but it doesn't hurt to leave it in.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, x (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads), or x (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and x ennui and x golems)

Challenge Rating: 14-15?

Treasure: Double (or even triple) standard?

Mullonga is 5 feet tall and weighs 90 pounds?

Mullonga speaks Abyssal, Celestial, Common, and Infernal in a voice as dry and brittle as a mummy’s wrappings?  (I borrowed the languages from a night hag).


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, x (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads), or x (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and x ennui and x golems)




Hmm, for the first x I would use the name of something worn on the head - a crown, a diadem?

No, a _*circlet*_, then we can make the second x a _*circle*_ and add a _*covey*_ with 2 more hags.

*Organization:* Solitary, circlet (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads), circle (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and x ennui and x golems) or covey (Mullonga plus 2 night hags, on nightmares, and 13 arcane heads)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 14-15?




Let's say 15. The Auto-Quicken is enough to merit the higher CR.



Shade said:


> Treasure: Double (or even triple) standard?




Triple's fine by me.



Shade said:


> Mullonga is 5 feet tall and weighs 90 pounds?




100 pounds would suit me better, but 90 is OK if freyar prefers that.



Shade said:


> Mullonga speaks Abyssal, Celestial, Common, and Infernal in a voice as dry and brittle as a mummy’s wrappings?  (I borrowed the languages from a night hag).




Those are OK by me.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2010)

90 lb, make her skinny.  And definitely triple standard treasure, since she should be a big boss.  The rest looks pretty good.


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## Cleon (Jan 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> 90 lb, make her skinny.  And definitely triple standard treasure, since she should be a big boss.  The rest looks pretty good.




Fine by me!

What's left for her?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Updated.

I think all that remains is to fill in the x's on this line...

Organization: Solitary, circlet (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads), circle (Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and x ennui and x golems) or covey (Mullonga plus 2 night hags riding nightmares, and 13 arcane heads)


How about just stating "Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and 30 Hit Dice of ennui and golems"?  That way, DMs without access to ennui can just use golems in their place.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> How about just stating "Mullonga plus 13 arcane heads and 30 Hit Dice of ennui and golems"?  That way, DMs without access to ennui can just use golems in their place.




Wouldn't some kind of CR-based encounter level criteria be more useful?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2011)

Aren't these things usually done like Shade stated, though?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Aren't these things usually done like Shade stated, though?




Yep. I don't recall ever seeing anything to do with Encounter Level in an actual monster stat block.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep. I don't recall ever seeing anything to do with Encounter Level in an actual monster stat block.




I can think of a few, but they were ones we came up with ourselves so they're hardly an official precedent.

If EL/CR is out I'd prefer to name a type of golem rather than set a HD range.

Maybe advanced 13HD Flesh Golems?


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm hesitant to commit to a certain golem type, since she's known for variety.  If it's a big issue, I'd rather leave her org as simply her and the arcane heads, and note other possibile allies/minions in the flavor text.   That's how the archfiends tend to handle the Org lines.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2011)

That would work for me.

Let's also add a mention of the dream web artifact in the flavor.  Maybe, "Of course, her Ghettoes, where she also hides the dream web artifact, are also haunted by things that did not turn out the way the witch had planned."


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> That would work for me.
> 
> Let's also add a mention of the dream web artifact in the flavor.   Maybe, "Of course, her Ghettoes, where she also hides the dream web  artifact, are also haunted by things that did not turn out the way the  witch had planned."




Leaving the golem type(s) to unspecified flavour is fine by me, as is mention of the Dream Web.


----------



## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jan 12, 2011)

I think she's finally done!


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Some of the description could do with a polish, e.g.:Mullonga often attempts to insinuate herself into a company of  wanderers, using illusions to cast herself as a mage lost in the mists.   If she is accepted into a company, she begins to sow false information.   She does this in an effort to create fear in the wanderers—fear she  can later use in dreams.​Shouldn't this be in Tactics?Mullonga thrives on fear, and her dream-scapes are sinister,  terror-filled locations.  She constantly searches for wanderers to fuel  her arcane experiments.  Mullonga has a number of workshops where she  conducts these experiments, which have resulted in the creation of the  arcane heads and other terrors that now serve the witch.  Of course, her  Ghettoes, where she also hides the _Dream Web_ artifact, are also  haunted by things that did not turn out the way the witch had planned.   In addition to her circlet of arcane heads, Mullonga is often  accompanied by night hags, nightmares, ennui, and golems of various  varieties.​I find the wording rather confusing. It doesn't explain what a "dream-scape" is or what the _Dream Web_ does, for a start.

How's this:

The aboriginal witch Mullonga may look like an old woman who is so small  as to be harmless, but she is powerful, evil and malicious.

Mullonga rules over a nightmare land which she  can reshape to her will into various "dreamscapes". Her dreamscapes are  sinister, terror-filled places, including many ghettoes populated by  imprisoned souls and monsters. Hidden somewhere among these ghettoes is an  artefact, the _dream web_, which grants Mullonga her spellcasting and dreamscape shaping powers.

She constantly searches for wanderers to fuel her arcane experiments.   Mullonga has a number of workshops where she conducts these experiments,  which have resulted in the creation of the arcane heads and other  terrors that now serve the witch. Mullonga is often accompanied by night  hags, nightmares, ennui, and golems of various varieties. Her ghettoes are also  haunted by things that did not turn out the way the witch had planned.

Mullonga is 5 feet tall and weighs 90 pounds.

Mullonga speaks Abyssal, Celestial, Common, and Infernal in a voice as dry and brittle as a mummy’s wrappings.

*Combat*
Mullonga often attempts to insinuate herself into a company of  wanderers, using illusions to cast herself as a mage lost in the mists.   If she is accepted into a company, she begins to sow false information.   She does this in an effort to create fear in the wanderers—fear she  can later use in dreams. 

Mullonga prefers to rely upon her magic, but if forced into melee, Mullonga’s gnarled hands become grotesquely extended claws.


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2011)

Well, that looks good to me!


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, that looks good to me!




We're probably done then once Shade approves/updates the changes.

I'll likely give it a final read-through, just to be safe.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We're probably done then once Shran approves/updates the changes.




Shran?  I feel like I've been "primelementaled"!  

You didn't Cleon Special (TM) me, did you?  DID YOU?  



Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Shran?  I feel like I've been "primelementaled"!
> 
> You didn't Cleon Special (TM) me, did you?  DID YOU?
> 
> ...




How do you think I replaced you with a greater doppleganger?

Dang it, I've blown your cover.

Casts ridiculously augmented _modify memory_ on everyone who saw this thread. Edits previous post to obliterate mention of the primelementaled name.

So "Shade", I think we're done with Mullonga.

What creature's next?


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Good thing I have ridiculously good saves.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Good thing I have ridiculously good saves.




Yes, there's no way I would have modified your memories to think that your Will save modifier was high enough to resist my psionic manipulation.

It's not like you need Immunity To Mind-Affecting Effects to be _sure_ that I haven't moulded your thoughts like putty...


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

*Siren (Ravenloft)*
Climate/Terrain: Ocean 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Schools 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: High (13-14) 
Treasure: C 
Alignment: Neutral evil 
No. Appearing: 2-8 
Armor Class: 6 
Movement: 8, Sw 18 
Hit Dice: 4 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 2 
Damage/Attack: 2d4 
Special Attacks: Mass charm, advanced illusion, disease 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: 10% 
Size: M (5’ tall) 
Morale: Steady (11-12) 
XP Value: 975 

A Ravenloft siren is a hideous, undead creature with the upper body of a woman and the lower body of a fish. Her hair is tangled and entwined with rotting seaweed, and her body is gray and bloated, resembling a corpse that has been in the water for some time. The flesh has rotted back from the finger tips, exposing the bone. The siren sharpens this bone on the rocks on which she reclines, turning each finger into a deadly weapon.

By means of their innate ability to cast advanced illusion spells, Ravenloft sirens present a very different face to the world. They appear to be beautiful mermaids with voluptuous bodies and sleek sea-green hair.

Combat: Ravenloft sirens lure their victims into striking range by means of a song that acts as a mass charm. This song can be heard at great distances over open water: those aboard ships passing within a mile of an islet on which Ravenloft sirens are sunning themselves have been known to fall victim to it. The song can be avoided by plugging the ears with wax or by means of a silence, 15’ radius spell, but these measures must be taken in advance.

Each siren in the school can affect up to 8 Hit Dice worth of victims. Victims must make a successful saving throw vs. spell with a -2 penalty to the roll. Those who fail are compelled to set course with all possible speed toward the singing. Upon sighting the sirens, they feel a compulsion to go ashore and sit down beside them. They may only be prevented from doing so by being physically restrained.

Any character who sights a Ravenloft siren and makes a successful saving throw vs. spell can see her as she really is. Typically this roll will be made in secret by the DM and is made with a -4 penalty.

Those characters who actively attempt to disbelieve the illusion do not suffer the a penalty. Disbelief may not be attempted, however, by characters who have fallen victim to the sirens’ mass charm.

Once their prey is within reach, the sirens attack with their sharpened, bony fingers. Due to the advanced illusion, which includes tactile elements, this attack at first seems to be a gentle caress. During each round that a siren succeeds in inflicting damage, the victim gets to make an additional saving throw vs. spell, (Again, this is typically done in secret by the DM.) A successful roll means that both the illusion and the charm suddenly vanish. The victim sees the siren for what she really is and can begin fighting back. At the DM’s discretion, a fear check may be called for due to the sudden revelation of the creature’s true form.

Those who suffer damage at the hands of a Ravenloft siren must make a saving throw vs. poison. Failure means that the wounds become infected. This infection must be magically healed before natural healing can occur.

Ravenloft sirens can be turned as undead and suffer damage from holy water. When turned, they flee back into the sea, disappearing beneath the waves.

Habitat/Society: Ravenloft sirens can exist on a diet of fish but prefer to dine on sentient creatures. They live in the ocean, traveling in schools like fish, but spend much of their time basking on rocky islets. These are typically surrounded by the rotting corpses of their victims. Because the sirens have no use for the victims’ possessions, valuable treasures or magical items can often be found there.

The sirens are astute enough to realize that this booty can act as a lure. They often lurk just beneath the waves, looking up at the surface for the hull of a visiting ship, then emerging suddenly to sing their song.

The stench of decay that hangs in the air around an islet that is a resting place for Ravenloft sirens is almost overwhelming. This foul taint emanates both from the sirens themselves and from the corpses of their victims. It is masked, however, by the sirens’ ability to cast advanced illusion spells that include an olfactory component.

Ecology: Thus far, Ravenloft sirens have only been sighted along the Jagged Coast of Necropolis. It is likely, however, that they will soon begin spreading south along the coastlines of other Ravenloft domains that border on the Sea of Sorrows.

It is thought that the sirens are merfolk who were transformed by the burst of negative energy that was released when the doomsday device was activated. If this theory is correct, it is possible that male Ravenloft sirens also exist.

Originally appeared in Requiem: The Grim Harvest (1996).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four version.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2011)

I have this weird feeling there's a regular siren we should base this from.  Or am I remembering wrong?

Anyway, I think we can use some inspiration from the harpy.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> I have this weird feeling there's a regular siren we should base this from.  Or am I remembering wrong?




At least according to Echohawk's index, there is not one.  

Sirine yes.  Siren no.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

Maybe I'm thinking of something Paizo did, which was a neutral version of the harpy, IIRC.

Well, we can make stuff up.  Aquatic undead?  Any point in the aquatic subtype?


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> At least according to Echohawk's index, there is not one.
> 
> Sirine yes.  Siren no.




There's a Siren in the Pathfinder Bestiary 2, for what it's worth.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyway, I think we can use some inspiration from the harpy.




I'd cross a Vampire Spawn and a Merfolk, then add some a Harpy.

*Merfolk:* Medium Humanoid (Aquatic) with no HD, Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10, speed 5 ft, swim 50 ft., amphibious
=> +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Wis

*Vampire Spawn:* 4 HD Undead, Str 16, Dex 14, Con --, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, NA +3, speed 30 ft.

*Vampire Spawn/Merfolk:* 4 HD Undead (Aquatic), Str 18, Dex 16, Con --, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 14, NA +3, speed 20 ft., swim 50 ft., amphibious

The Armour Class is 2 better than the original, but I think it needs it. I'd increase the Charisma by +2 to give it the same ability modifier as a harpy. I'm thinking 1d4 damage with 2 claws.

So something like:

*Siren:* 4 HD Undead (Aquatic), Str 18, Dex 16, Con --, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 16, NA +3, speed 20 ft., swim 50 ft., amphibious, 2 claws (1d4+4 plus disease), captivating song, "beguiling disguise?", spell resistance X


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Siren (Ravenloft)*
> Climate/Terrain: Ocean
> Frequency: Rare
> Organization: Schools
> ...




Actually, the above is the Grim Harvest version, not the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four one.

The MCA4 version has some slight rephrasing, but the only significant change is the addition of the following:



> Ravenloft sirens are immune to sleep¸ charm, hold, poison, and death magic.
> 
> On the Prime Material plane, Ravenloft sirens are turned as wraiths. When turned, they flee back into the sea, disappearing beneath the waves.




The former's just standard Undead mind-resistance, the latter suggests +2 turn resistance.

The


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## freyar (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not sure it needs the +6 Str from vampire spawn and +2 from merfolk; I'd be happy with just Str 16.  But the rest looks fine.  I'm not sure I'd call the disguise "beguiling," but it's sure something!


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure it needs the +6 Str from vampire spawn and +2 from merfolk; I'd be happy with just Str 16.  But the rest looks fine.  I'm not sure I'd call the disguise "beguiling," but it's sure something!




Agreed.  Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure it needs the +6 Str from vampire spawn and +2 from merfolk; I'd be happy with just Str 16.  But the rest looks fine.  I'm not sure I'd call the disguise "beguiling," but it's sure something!




I though it needed the +8 Str since I was proposing 1d4 claws and wanted to give them decent damage.  It'll also help their attack modifier, of course.

As for the disguise I hadn't decided on a good name, which is why "beguiling" is in quotes.

Maybe call the ability "Veil of Deception"?

*Veil of Deception (Su):* A ravenloft siren can create a powerful illusion to alter the appearance of itself and its lair. This glamer disguises the siren as a beautiful mermaid and makes its lair appear to be pristine and restful (the illusion conceals the rotting remains of the siren's victims). Any creature that sees the siren or its lair must succeed at a DC *X* Will save or be affected by the veil of deception. Creatures affected by a siren's charming song (see above) will  automatically fail their saves against its veil of deception. Veil of deception affects all the senses (sight, smell, touch et cetera). It even affects the sense of pain, so the siren's attacks appear to be gentle caresses to victims of its veil of deception, and those it has slain appear to be dozing peacefully. Creatures affected by veil of deception who are injured by the siren may attempt another DC *X* Will save (no more than one attempt per round); if they succeed the veil no longer affects them and they see the horrifying truth of their hostess and her home, the transition is so disturbing the creature must succeed at another DC *X* Will save or be shaken for *Y* rounds. A true seeing effect renders a veil of deception powerless. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

I'd rather boost the claws to d6 than raise the Str.

"Veil of Deception" is a wonderful name, and the ability is looking pretty good.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd rather boost the claws to d6 than raise the Str.




1d6 damage and Strength 16 suits me better. Although it's hardly _boosting_ the claws, since they currently do 1d8!

A claw damage range of 4-9 seems a better match to the original than 4-11.



Shade said:


> "Veil of Deception" is a wonderful name, and the ability is looking pretty good.




Thanks!

Can you think of any tweaks it needs, or shall we stick in a DC and a duration and call it a day?


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2011)

Str 16 and 1d6 claws it is!

I also like the veil of deception.  Stick in the usual DC 15 for Cha-based and make the duration of shaken 1d4 rounds.  That'll do it for me.


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## Cleon (Jan 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> Str 16 and 1d6 claws it is!
> 
> I also like the veil of deception.  Stick in the usual DC 15 for Cha-based and make the duration of shaken 1d4 rounds.  That'll do it for me.




Suits me.

Revising...

*Veil of Deception (Su):* A ravenloft siren can create a powerful  illusion to alter the appearance of itself and its lair. This glamer  disguises the siren as a beautiful mermaid and makes its lair appear to  be pristine and restful (the illusion conceals the rotting remains of  the siren's victims). Any creature that sees the siren or its lair must  succeed at a DC 15 Will save or be  affected by the veil of deception. Creatures affected by a siren's  charming song (see above) will  automatically fail their saves against  its veil of deception. Veil of deception affects all the senses (sight,  smell, touch et cetera). It even affects the sense of pain, so the  siren's attacks appear to be gentle caresses to victims of its veil of  deception, and those it has slain appear to be dozing peacefully.  Creatures affected by veil of deception who are injured by the siren may  attempt another DC 15 Will save (no more  than one attempt per round); if they succeed the veil no longer affects  them and they see the horrifying truth of their hostess and her home,  the transition is so disturbing the creature must succeed at another DC 15 Will save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds. A true seeing effect renders a veil of deception powerless. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2011)

Looking good!


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looking good!




You're only saying that 'cause you failed your Will save. 

Are we done with the Veil then?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2011)

Nah, even on a successful save, you can still see the illusion as well as what's underneath.   I think the veil is done.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Looks fine.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Nah, even on a successful save, you can still see the illusion as well as what's underneath.   I think the veil is done.




Skills and feats then? A harpy would seem a good comparison:

*SRD Harpy*
Skills: Bluff +11, Intimidate +7, Listen +7, Perform (oratory) +5, Spot +3
Feats: Dodge, Flyby Attack, Persuasive

Don't like Dodge and they can't fly, so maybe:

*Siren*
Skill Ranks: Bluff 7, Intimidate 7, Listen 7, Perform (sing) 7, Spot 7
Feats: Persuasive, Weapon Focus (claws)


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Seems reasonable.


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Seems reasonable.




We were modifying a harpy's Song for them, I think it'll be easier to leave out the original's HD limitation.

Something like:

*Siren Song (Su):* The most insidious ability of the ravenloft harpy is its song. When a siren sings, all creatures (other than sirens and harpies) within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or become captivated. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same ravenloft siren's song for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captivated victim moves toward the siren, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. A victim within 5 feet of the ravenloft siren will stand still staring at the siren's illusory beauty. Captivated creatures automatically fail their saves against the ravenloft siren's veil of deception power (see below), so offer no resistance to the siren's attacks, but will fight in self-defense if attacked by a creature other than a ravenloft siren. The effects of siren song continue for as long as the ravenloft siren sings and for 1 round thereafter. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2011)

Looks good, except you have a "harpy" on the first line.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2011)

Updated.



> Those who suffer damage at the hands of a Ravenloft siren must make a saving throw vs. poison. Failure means that the wounds become infected. This infection must be magically healed before natural healing can occur.




Disease or cursed wound (like a clay golem)?


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good, except you have a "harpy" on the first line.




I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get rid of all of those dang birdwomen.


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Disease or cursed wound (like a clay golem)?




The references to infection suggests disease to me, especially as there's no mention of _remove curse_. The prevention of mundane healing suggests a supernatural disease, like a "Magical Curse disease", like a less nasty form of Mummy Rot.

There's no mention of it causing any other deleterious effects, but I think we should have it do some ability damage. Maybe base it on Filth Fever?

Filth fever—Injury, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con.

Maybe something like:

*Siren Rot (Su)*
_Supernatural disease_—claw, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A creature suffering from siren rot can not recover hit points or  ability damage points from natural healing, but magical healing spells  function normally.

Siren rot is part curse, part natural disease. Unlike normal diseases, siren rot continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.

A _remove disease_ spell cures siren rot. A _break enchantment_ or _remove curse_ spell neutralizes the curse portion of siren rot, leaving the victim infected with the normal disease, which can then be healed naturally or magically. The mundane portion of siren rot is filth fever:

_Filth fever disease_—Fortitude DC 12, incubation period (already incubated); damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

I think that'll work.


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## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think that'll work.




Let's use it then.

Why do I sometimes feel I'm doing all the monster-work in this forum?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Why do I sometimes feel I'm doing all the monster-work in this forum?




Because when I go first, you just post your own alternatives anyway.  It saves me time to let you go first!


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Because when I go first, you just post your own alternatives anyway.  It saves me time to let you go first!




But if we don't have alternatives there's nothing to argue about. Where's the fun it that! 

Looks like the only stats to decide on are CR and Advancement.

Challenge Rating 4? Their stats are pretty close to a Harpy and they've got some pretty nasty powers.

Advancement by character class, like Harpies and Merfolk?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Updated.

A Ravenloft siren is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Ravenloft sirens speak any languages they knew in life (usually Common and Aquan, like merfolk)?


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A Ravenloft siren is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.
> 
> Ravenloft sirens speak any languages they knew in life (usually Common and Aquan, like merfolk)?




The languages look good, but the height is wonky since the SRD says "A merfolk is about 8 feet long from the top of the head to the end of the tail, and weighs about 400 pounds." Shouldn't we reference that?

How about:

A ravenloft siren is about 8 feet long from her head to her tailfin and weighs about 400 pounds, she can "stand" about 5 feet tall by balancing on her tail.

Ravenloft sirens speak any languages they knew in life, usually the Common and Aquan spoken by merfolk.


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

That makes sense.

Updated.

All done?


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Not quite.

Firstly, Spell Resistance 7 is woeful. I'd increase it to 13 or 14 to be close to the original's failure chance for an 11th level caster.

Second, the "Although the sirens have no interest in treasure, they use it as a lure" jars with "Treasure: None", especially when the original has "Treasure Type: E (M)".

Let's see...

*Type E:*
1,000-6,000 copper pieces: 5%
1,000-10,000 silver pieces: 25%
1,000-4,000 gold pieces: 25%
300-1,800 platinum or electrum pieces: 25%
1-12 gems: 25%
1-6 art objects: 10%
Any 3 magical items + 1 scroll: 25%

*Type M:*
2-8 gold pieces

Type E's pretty decent, so I'd go Treasure: Standard.

Apart from that I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

Agreed.  Updated.

*Gnasher*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate/forest or rough 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Semi- (2-4) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-20 
Armor Class: 6 
Movement: 15 
Hit Dice: 3 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-6 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (5-7’ long) 
Morale: Elite (13) 
XP Value: 120
Leader: 175 

Created by a master sorcerer ages ago, these creatures most closely resemble dogs, but their wolfish snouts sport many more razor-sharp teeth than their canine cousins, and there is a bristly tuft of hair that grows between their shoulders. Coloration tends toward dark blacks, greys, and browns. Their eyes show evidence of the hatred and evil burning within their breasts, practically burning with the desire to kill and maim.

Combat: Gnashers live for the kill, and their tactics show it. When attacking, they circle their prey and then lunge in with snapping jaws, often trying for the throat. Their powerful jaws inflict 1d6 points of damage. Gnashers prefer to make jabbing attacks, circling and feigning, until they have sufficiently weakened their prey. Then they all lunge in at once, swarming and overbearing the prey from all directions until it goes down. Anyone taken down under a gnasher attack has little hope of survival. The prone victim’s AC is effectively reduced by 4 and the gnashers inflict an additional +2 points of damage per attack.

The only hope someone has of escaping a gnasher pack is to climb something the gnashers cannot ascend. However, if there is no other way down, gnashers have been known to stand guard until the prey dies of dehydration or attempts an escape.

Habitat/Society: Gnashers hunt in packs, following a leader that has earned its place by brute force (+1 Hit Die). As the leader ages, the younger toughs of the pack wait for a chance to displace it. Once this has occured, the remainder of the potential leaders fight for dominance, rarely to the death.

Even though gnashers are vicious, they avoid populated areas when possible, attacking those who wander into the wilderness. They are usually only encountered in the wilds, although at times smaller farming communities have trouble with packs of gnashers that kill livestock and lone villagers.

The pack communicates on a rudimentary level, using a combination of barks, growls, and body language. Although gnashers frequently squabble among themselves – fighting over food, pack dominance, and mates – they do not rise against each other if there are foes present. They only kill gnashers of other packs, since these are viewed as competitors in the struggle for survival in the wilds.

Ecology: Gnashers survive solely on meat. They attack nearly anything in the area, from rabbits to adventurers to low-flying birds. An area controlled by these creatures will be devoid of other animal life. Anyone entering the territory of a pack of gnashers will notice an eerie silence in an area cleaned out by them. It takes nearly a year for any animals to return to an area where a gnasher pack has made its home, even after the gnashers leave it for more fruitful pastures.

Gnashers mate in the spring, the female bearing 1d4+1 cubs that stay with the mother for the first year and are then forced out on their own. For many years these creatures were mistaken for dogs, until it was realized that they do not flee pain, and indeed seem to revel in it.

Their natural enemy is the elven dog, or cooshee. The two species hate each other and will attack upon first hint of the other. Even the typical canine surrender will not suffice for these two; no quarter is ever given.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


*Gnasher, Winged*
Climate/Terrain: Forest/rough hills 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-12 
Armor Class: 5 
Movement: 12, Fl 6 (E) 
Hit Dice: 4 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-8 
Special Attacks: Surprise 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: L (8-10’ long) 
Morale: Elite (14) 
XP Value: 270
Leader 650 

These are slightly bigger cousins of normal gnashers, encountered only in areas with natural outcroppings of stone. They have batlike wings – thick membranes attached to their forelegs and running the length of their bodies – that enable them to leap into tine air from these outcroppings and glide for distances of 50 feet for every 10 feet of height from which they leaped. However, their wings tend to tire easily, and they cannot maintain glides of over 200 feet. They can also leap into the air from the ground and glide for 20 feet, but they suffer a -2 attack penalty when attempting to bring down a target from such a jump.

Winged gnashers are equally at home on the ground. Though they have wings, the membranes stretch enough that the gnashers can run quickly along the ground. Though they do not have the speed normal gnashers have, they can usually catch prey that does not have a running start.

Combat: Like normal gnashers, winged gnashers live for the kill and use tactics much like their land-based brethren, circling around their prey until it is surrounded, and then closing in with surprising speed. In addition to their circling tactics, winged gnashers also “fly” at prey, folding their wings and dropping down from heights of up to 20 feet to achieve surprise. This is equivalent to a charge attack, giving the winged gnasher a +2 attack bonus. However, they suffer a -1 AC penalty.

Habitat/Society: Winged gnashers (also known simply as “wings”) live in caves in the rough hills. They hardly ever sleep in the open, unless they are forced from their cave by something larger and fiercer than them. Their nests inside these caves are crude collections of straw and branches in which they sleep. There is usually very little treasure in a gnasher cave, since they have no use for it. They generally leave it on the carcasses of the creatures they kill.

Like their cousins, winged gnashers live in packs. Winged gnasher leaders have 1 extra Hit Die and are larger than the rest of the pack. Intrapack struggles are common, as the younger males wish to try their strength against that of their leader. Those who fail are driven from the pack to try and fend for themselves in the wild. Unfortunately for these exiles, most wilderness creatures take the opportunity to eliminate lone gnashers when they can.

Ecology: Winged gnashers generally feed off land-based creatures, since most flying creatures are far more mobile and aerially agile than they are. Only if they attack by surprise can winged gnashers bring down the majority of flying creatures, and only if that creature is flying less than 40 feet above the ground.

Gnashers have no regard for the balance of nature, and they tend to completely eliminate every sizeable creature in an area. These areas are notable for their lack of animal life, and gnashers do not stay long in a place they have cleaned out.

Winged gnashers find that most other aerial monsters are their natural enemies, especially griffons and hippogriffs. These creatures will put aside their differences in order to eliminate gnasher packs. Thus, winged gnashers try to find places to live that are far from the nests of such creatures, for unless the other monster makes a foolish mistake, the gnashers are no match for them.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


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## freyar (Feb 15, 2011)

Gosh darn it, I'll give you an argument. 

The wound bit says


> Those who suffer damage at the hands of a Ravenloft siren must make a saving throw vs. poison. Failure means that the wounds become infected. This infection must be magically healed before natural healing can occur.



There's a long way from that to a disease that deals 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con per day!  I'll agree that it doesn't mention remove curse, but I think cursed wound is a much, much better model for the original effect.  (And cursed wound doesn't mention remove curse, either, actually.)  I would honestly just directly modify cursed wound:

Cursed Wound (Ex): The damage a siren deals doesn’t heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a siren must succeed on a DC 16 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.

I don't know how the DC was set for the golem, so I just picked a number that seemed about right.  I'm even willing to drop the CL check bit if you want, but the disease really needs to go from my perspective.  It doesn't fit the original creature at all.


EDIT: can we hold off on gnashers till we settle the sirens?


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Gosh darn it, I'll give you an argument.




Hey!  That's Cleon's territory!  



freyar said:


> The wound bit says
> 
> There's a long way from that to a disease that deals 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con per day!  I'll agree that it doesn't mention remove curse, but I think cursed wound is a much, much better model for the original effect.  (And cursed wound doesn't mention remove curse, either, actually.)  I would honestly just directly modify cursed wound:
> 
> ...




That was my original gut reaction, so I'll happy go along with it.



freyar said:


> EDIT: can we hold off on gnashers till we settle the sirens?




Sure!  I wouldn't have moved on if Cleon and I hadn't been in agreement.  I wasn't expecting a last-minute rebuttal from you!


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## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Gosh darn it, I'll give you an argument.




Bring it on!  



freyar said:


> The wound bit says
> 
> There's a long way from that to a disease that deals 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con per day!  I'll agree that it doesn't mention remove curse, but I think cursed wound is a much, much better model for the original effect.  (And cursed wound doesn't mention remove curse, either, actually.)  I would honestly just directly modify cursed wound:




Well the claws cause infected wounds, and filth fever is pretty much a "standard disease" for infected wounds. The Siren Rot is just filth fever with a SQ.

I would rather the disease do some damage, 'cause simply stopping natural healing is actually of little impact to D&D PCs, who get almost all their healing from magic.



freyar said:


> Cursed Wound (Ex): The damage a siren deals doesn’t heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a siren must succeed on a DC 16 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.
> 
> I don't know how the DC was set for the golem, so I just picked a number that seemed about right.  I'm even willing to drop the CL check bit if you want, but the disease really needs to go from my perspective.  It doesn't fit the original creature at all.




I believe the original Cursed Wound's DC26 is based on the AD&D Clay Golem's attacks requiring a 17th level cleric to cure. It would have been better to have just set a CL limit rather than a level check, in my humble opinion.

As for it fitting the original creature, if I remember my AD&D correctly if a character gets infected wounds the DM would refer to a disease table in the DMG (I think it was a "pick a disease" rather than a "roll a disease" table) and apply the effects to the PC, so making it a disease fits in my perspective.



freyar said:


> EDIT: can we hold off on gnashers till we settle the sirens?




Sure. Wouldn't want to distract from this beautiful argument.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hey!  That's Cleon's territory!




Yes! Better watch out freyar, I'll get the internet DMs' union on you for breaking demarcation! 



Shade said:


> That was my original gut reaction, so I'll happy go along with it.




Bah, humbug. 



Shade said:


> Sure!  I wouldn't have moved on if Cleon and I hadn't been in agreement.  I wasn't expecting a last-minute rebuttal from you!




It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for...


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2011)

Uhh, so are we settled on cursed wound with some appropriate CL check?


----------



## Shade (Feb 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Uhh, so are we settled on cursed wound with some appropriate CL check?




Yes, we have a majority.  I suspect a Cleon Special will follow shortly.  

As for the DC, I can't figure out the formula.  It may be 15 + HD, or 16 + CR, or something else entirely.  Since the siren has the same HD and CR, we can simply set it to 19 and I'd be content.  Objections?


----------



## freyar (Feb 18, 2011)

You're probably right.   I wouldn't mind the disease, honestly, but infections aren't usually as nasty as filth fever or the other diseases get.

I'm ok with DC 19.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yes, we have a majority.  I suspect a Cleon Special will follow shortly.




Follow shortly? There already _*is*_ a Cleon Special, you lot are the ones playing catch-up. 



Shade said:


> As for the DC, I can't figure out the formula.  It may be 15 + HD, or 16 + CR, or something else entirely.  Since the siren has the same HD and CR, we can simply set it to 19 and I'd be content.  Objections?




As I indicated before, I believe the Clay Golem's Cursed Wound DC is arbitrary, based on the AD&D version needing a 17th+ level cleric to heal.

Thus, a "Cursed Wounds" version of the siren could have any DC you like for the level check. DC 18 or 20 is a nice round number...


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Follow shortly? There already _*is*_ a Cleon Special, you lot are the ones playing catch-up.




Touche'.



Cleon said:


> As I indicated before, I believe the Clay Golem's Cursed Wound DC is arbitrary, based on the AD&D version needing a 17th+ level cleric to heal.
> 
> Thus, a "Cursed Wounds" version of the siren could have any DC you like for the level check. DC 18 or 20 is a nice round number...




..and that's why I favor the nice, unrounded non-Euclidian DC 19.  

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Touche'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually, I suspect 19 and 20 are equally non-geometrical as far as Euclid would be concerned. 

Since you've changed Siren Rot to Cursed Wound the last sentence in tactics ("Their claws also spread a supernatural disease known as siren rot.") needs to be changes ("Their claws inflict cursed wounds which can not heal naturally."?)


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Updated.

Back to the gnashers.  I'll repost 'em as they've scrolled off page...

*Gnasher*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate/forest or rough 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Semi- (2-4) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-20 
Armor Class: 6 
Movement: 15 
Hit Dice: 3 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-6 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (5-7’ long) 
Morale: Elite (13) 
XP Value: 120
Leader: 175 

Created by a master sorcerer ages ago, these creatures most closely resemble dogs, but their wolfish snouts sport many more razor-sharp teeth than their canine cousins, and there is a bristly tuft of hair that grows between their shoulders. Coloration tends toward dark blacks, greys, and browns. Their eyes show evidence of the hatred and evil burning within their breasts, practically burning with the desire to kill and maim.

Combat: Gnashers live for the kill, and their tactics show it. When attacking, they circle their prey and then lunge in with snapping jaws, often trying for the throat. Their powerful jaws inflict 1d6 points of damage. Gnashers prefer to make jabbing attacks, circling and feigning, until they have sufficiently weakened their prey. Then they all lunge in at once, swarming and overbearing the prey from all directions until it goes down. Anyone taken down under a gnasher attack has little hope of survival. The prone victim’s AC is effectively reduced by 4 and the gnashers inflict an additional +2 points of damage per attack.

The only hope someone has of escaping a gnasher pack is to climb something the gnashers cannot ascend. However, if there is no other way down, gnashers have been known to stand guard until the prey dies of dehydration or attempts an escape.

Habitat/Society: Gnashers hunt in packs, following a leader that has earned its place by brute force (+1 Hit Die). As the leader ages, the younger toughs of the pack wait for a chance to displace it. Once this has occured, the remainder of the potential leaders fight for dominance, rarely to the death.

Even though gnashers are vicious, they avoid populated areas when possible, attacking those who wander into the wilderness. They are usually only encountered in the wilds, although at times smaller farming communities have trouble with packs of gnashers that kill livestock and lone villagers.

The pack communicates on a rudimentary level, using a combination of barks, growls, and body language. Although gnashers frequently squabble among themselves – fighting over food, pack dominance, and mates – they do not rise against each other if there are foes present. They only kill gnashers of other packs, since these are viewed as competitors in the struggle for survival in the wilds.

Ecology: Gnashers survive solely on meat. They attack nearly anything in the area, from rabbits to adventurers to low-flying birds. An area controlled by these creatures will be devoid of other animal life. Anyone entering the territory of a pack of gnashers will notice an eerie silence in an area cleaned out by them. It takes nearly a year for any animals to return to an area where a gnasher pack has made its home, even after the gnashers leave it for more fruitful pastures.

Gnashers mate in the spring, the female bearing 1d4+1 cubs that stay with the mother for the first year and are then forced out on their own. For many years these creatures were mistaken for dogs, until it was realized that they do not flee pain, and indeed seem to revel in it.

Their natural enemy is the elven dog, or cooshee. The two species hate each other and will attack upon first hint of the other. Even the typical canine surrender will not suffice for these two; no quarter is ever given.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


*Gnasher, Winged*
Climate/Terrain: Forest/rough hills 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-12 
Armor Class: 5 
Movement: 12, Fl 6 (E) 
Hit Dice: 4 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-8 
Special Attacks: Surprise 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: L (8-10’ long) 
Morale: Elite (14) 
XP Value: 270
Leader 650 

These are slightly bigger cousins of normal gnashers, encountered only in areas with natural outcroppings of stone. They have batlike wings – thick membranes attached to their forelegs and running the length of their bodies – that enable them to leap into tine air from these outcroppings and glide for distances of 50 feet for every 10 feet of height from which they leaped. However, their wings tend to tire easily, and they cannot maintain glides of over 200 feet. They can also leap into the air from the ground and glide for 20 feet, but they suffer a -2 attack penalty when attempting to bring down a target from such a jump.

Winged gnashers are equally at home on the ground. Though they have wings, the membranes stretch enough that the gnashers can run quickly along the ground. Though they do not have the speed normal gnashers have, they can usually catch prey that does not have a running start.

Combat: Like normal gnashers, winged gnashers live for the kill and use tactics much like their land-based brethren, circling around their prey until it is surrounded, and then closing in with surprising speed. In addition to their circling tactics, winged gnashers also “fly” at prey, folding their wings and dropping down from heights of up to 20 feet to achieve surprise. This is equivalent to a charge attack, giving the winged gnasher a +2 attack bonus. However, they suffer a -1 AC penalty.

Habitat/Society: Winged gnashers (also known simply as “wings”) live in caves in the rough hills. They hardly ever sleep in the open, unless they are forced from their cave by something larger and fiercer than them. Their nests inside these caves are crude collections of straw and branches in which they sleep. There is usually very little treasure in a gnasher cave, since they have no use for it. They generally leave it on the carcasses of the creatures they kill.

Like their cousins, winged gnashers live in packs. Winged gnasher leaders have 1 extra Hit Die and are larger than the rest of the pack. Intrapack struggles are common, as the younger males wish to try their strength against that of their leader. Those who fail are driven from the pack to try and fend for themselves in the wild. Unfortunately for these exiles, most wilderness creatures take the opportunity to eliminate lone gnashers when they can.

Ecology: Winged gnashers generally feed off land-based creatures, since most flying creatures are far more mobile and aerially agile than they are. Only if they attack by surprise can winged gnashers bring down the majority of flying creatures, and only if that creature is flying less than 40 feet above the ground.

Gnashers have no regard for the balance of nature, and they tend to completely eliminate every sizeable creature in an area. These areas are notable for their lack of animal life, and gnashers do not stay long in a place they have cleaned out.

Winged gnashers find that most other aerial monsters are their natural enemies, especially griffons and hippogriffs. These creatures will put aside their differences in order to eliminate gnasher packs. Thus, winged gnashers try to find places to live that are far from the nests of such creatures, for unless the other monster makes a foolish mistake, the gnashers are no match for them.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


----------



## freyar (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, for the regular ones, modify a worg?  I think I'd drop trip but give them something similar for overrun and possibly something along the lines of pack tactics (though that's not implied very strongly).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, for the regular ones, modify a worg?  I think I'd drop trip but give them something similar for overrun and possibly something along the lines of pack tactics (though that's not implied very strongly).




That makes sense.

They're pretty similar to Worgs, just stupider and 1 fewer HD. How about giving them whatever Overrun/Drag Down special attack we come up with for the Saluqi. Something like Improved Grab which can lead to a prone pin?


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They're pretty similar to Worgs, just stupider and 1 fewer HD. How about giving them whatever Overrun/Drag Down special attack we come up with for the Saluqi. Something like Improved Grab which can lead to a prone pin?




Sounds like a plan.  Let's work that bit out in the saluqi thread, then return to this.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sounds like a plan.  Let's work that bit out in the saluqi thread, then return to this.




Agreed.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

We've almost got it...


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Added to Homebrews (using the worg framework).


----------



## freyar (Mar 25, 2011)

That pretty much seems like it for the non-winged version.  Put 2 ranks each in Listen, Spot, Survival, or do we just want to put them all in Survival?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> That pretty much seems like it for the non-winged version.  Put 2 ranks each in Listen, Spot, Survival, or do we just want to put them all in Survival?




I'd rather spread them out. Besides, Worgs and Wolves don't have any ranks in Survival.


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, these are specifically hunting/tracking animals, so I like Survival for them.  But splitting the ranks up is a good idea.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, these are specifically hunting/tracking animals, so I like Survival for them.  But splitting the ranks up is a good idea.




Worgs and Wolves are not hunting animals? I don't think so! 

Giving them a rank (or _maybe_ 2) in Survival is OK, but I would much rather put the points in other skills.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




That looks OK to me.

I think we ought to the numbers or sizes in the Pack Overrun, since they're a size larger than a Saluqi. I'm not comfortable with the idea of allowing them to drag down a creature larger than an elephant, but maybe make the second sentence "The pack overrun prevents a *Large* or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity" and leave the rest unchanged.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That looks OK to me.
> 
> I think we ought to the numbers or sizes in the Pack Overrun, since they're a size larger than a Saluqi. I'm not comfortable with the idea of allowing them to drag down a creature larger than an elephant, but maybe make the second sentence "The pack overrun prevents a *Large* or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity" and leave the rest unchanged.




I'm amenable to lowering the numbers and limiting it to Large, although I'm not bothered by bringing down a Huge prey either.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm amenable to lowering the numbers and limiting it to Large, although I'm not bothered by bringing down a Huge prey either.




That's not what I intended.

When I said I didn't want them bringing down a creature larger than an elephant, I meant I didn't want to increase the max size by one step (to Gargantuan) because the Gnashers are a size larger than Saluqis.

i.e. keep the max size Huge like a pack of Saluqis.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's not what I intended.
> 
> When I said I didn't want them bringing down a creature larger than an elephant, I meant I didn't want to increase the max size by one step (to Gargantuan) because the Gnashers are a size larger than Saluqis.
> 
> i.e. keep the max size Huge like a pack of Saluqis.




In that case, I'm still not bothered by bringing down a Huge prey.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> In that case, I'm still not bothered by bringing down a Huge prey.




I think we're agreed on it, then.

*Pack Overrun (Ex):* A pack of four or more gnashers may use the overrun  attack. The pack overrun prevents a Large or smaller opponent from  avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In  addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may  immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the  opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed  grapple checks.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the gnasher  pack as a single Large creature with strength equal to that of the  strongest gnasher in the pack (so that the pack cannot overrun creatures  larger than Huge). The gnashers' overrun and grapple checks also  receive a bonus equal to the number of gnashers in the pack surrounding  their target (that is, up to +8 for targets up to Medium, +12 for Large  targets, and +16 for Huge targets). Furthermore, any adjacent gnashers  can choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks like we've got the mechanics worked out, but I think we can include a bit more of the following in the description:



			
				Dragon Mountain said:
			
		

> Created by a master sorcerer ages ago, these creatures most closely resemble dogs, but their wolfish snouts sport many more razor-sharp teeth than their canine cousins, and there is a bristly tuft of hair that grows between their shoulders. Coloration tends toward dark blacks, greys, and browns. Their eyes show evidence of the hatred and evil burning within their breasts, practically burning with the desire to kill and maim.




_This large canine closely resembles a dog with __a bristly tuft of hair between its shoulders__and eyes that practically burn with hatred and evil. Its__ wolfish snout has an overabundance of razor-sharp teeth. _

Created by a sorcerer ages ago, gnashers (and their cousins the winged gnashers) are hateful beasts that live to kill and maim. Gnashers live in packs led by their most brutal member, a position decided by vicious (but usually not fatal) combat. They only deliberately kill gnashers of rival packs.

These monsters are usually only met in wildernesses. They know that populated areas would hunt them down, but sometimes raid isolated settlements. A pack of gnashers will claim a territory until it has killed eaten every animal within it, then move on to a new territory. An area abandoned by gnashers is eerily quiet; it may take months before new animals dare enter a gnasher pack's old territory.

Gnashers have an instinctive hatred of elven dogs. The feeling has become mutual, and the two species always fight without quarter. Perhaps the sorcerer who created them intended them as a weapon against elven dogs.

A typical gnasher is 5 feet long, stands 3 feet tall at the shoulder,  and weighs 300 pounds.  Coloration tends toward dark blacks, greys, and  browns. 

Gnashers speak their own language, using a combination of barks, growls, and body language.

COMBAT
Gnashers are unpredictable, erratic opponents. The only consistency is  their vicious malevolence. They are interested in their own survival as  well as killing, but the ratio between these passions fluctuates wildly -  the same gnasher may stalk and torment the weakest lamb in a flock one  day, then charge into a group of hunters and fight to the death the next  day. Gnashers can be crafty. They often avoid powerful foes to pick off the weak or isolated. Even a full belly may not satisfy a gnasher's lust to kill, they will needlessly slaughter victims and leave the bodies to rot. 

When attacking, gnashers circle their opponents and then lunge in with snapping jaws, jabbing and feinting until they spot weakness. They then dart in from all directions and swarm over their prey until it is dragged to the ground. Anything pulled down by this pack overrun attack has little chance of survival.

The only hope many creatures have of escaping a gnasher pack is to climb somewhere the gnashers can't reach. However, gnashers have been known to wait until a "treed" victim dies from dehydration.

Gnashers do not flee pain, indeed they seem to revel in it. A wounded gnasher becomes even more aggressive.


----------



## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

Ok, slowly getting back into the swing of things --- what else do these need?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, slowly getting back into the swing of things --- what else do these need?




I think my previous post about covers it, unless there's something more you'd like?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate forests or plains?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items?

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?

Advancement: x


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Environment: Temperate forests or plains?
> 
> ...




I'd prefer "Treasure: None" and "Alignment: Always chaotic evil". The AD&D gnasher didn't have any treasure, like the SRD Hell Hound and Shadow Mastiff.

The latter two canine monsters also had an "Always" alignment.

Environment and CR are OK.

* Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer "Treasure: None" and "Alignment: Always chaotic evil". The AD&D gnasher didn't have any treasure, like the SRD Hell Hound and Shadow Mastiff.
> 
> The latter two canine monsters also had an "Always" alignment.




The hell hound and shadow mastiff are also outsiders.  This is going to be a magical beast.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The hell hound and shadow mastiff are also outsiders.  This is going to be a magical beast.




Is that regarding the Always alignment?

I could tolerate Usually CE, but I'm more attached to the no treasure.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Is that regarding the Always alignment?
> 
> I could tolerate Usually CE, but I'm more attached to the no treasure.




Mainly on alignment.


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

The worg, upon which we modeled much of its stats, is "Usually neutral evil".  I think that's a good "role model".

Although the worg has treasure, I'm fine with leaving it off the gnashers.  They're more about the killin' and eatin'.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

No treasure, usually CE sounds like a winner.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Updated.  Ready for the winged variety?


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Sure.  Is there much else beside adding a fly speed?


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure.  Is there much else beside adding a fly speed?




Yeah, they're bigger, stronger, have more HD...

*Gnasher*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate/forest or rough 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Semi- (2-4) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-20 
Armor Class: 6 
Movement: 15 
Hit Dice: 3 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-6 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (5-7’ long) 
Morale: Elite (13) 
XP Value: 120
Leader: 175 

vs.

*Gnasher, Winged*
Climate/Terrain: Forest/rough hills 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
No. Appearing: 2-12 
Armor Class: 5 
Movement: 12, Fl 6 (E) 
Hit Dice: 4 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1-8 
Special Attacks: Surprise 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: L (8-10’ long) 
Morale: Elite (14) 
XP Value: 270
Leader 650 

These are slightly bigger cousins of normal gnashers, encountered only in areas with natural outcroppings of stone. They have batlike wings – thick membranes attached to their forelegs and running the length of their bodies – that enable them to leap into tine air from these outcroppings and glide for distances of 50 feet for every 10 feet of height from which they leaped. However, their wings tend to tire easily, and they cannot maintain glides of over 200 feet. They can also leap into the air from the ground and glide for 20 feet, but they suffer a -2 attack penalty when attempting to bring down a target from such a jump.

Winged gnashers are equally at home on the ground. Though they have wings, the membranes stretch enough that the gnashers can run quickly along the ground. Though they do not have the speed normal gnashers have, they can usually catch prey that does not have a running start.

Combat: Like normal gnashers, winged gnashers live for the kill and use tactics much like their land-based brethren, circling around their prey until it is surrounded, and then closing in with surprising speed. In addition to their circling tactics, winged gnashers also “fly” at prey, folding their wings and dropping down from heights of up to 20 feet to achieve surprise. This is equivalent to a charge attack, giving the winged gnasher a +2 attack bonus. However, they suffer a -1 AC penalty.

Habitat/Society: Winged gnashers (also known simply as “wings”) live in caves in the rough hills. They hardly ever sleep in the open, unless they are forced from their cave by something larger and fiercer than them. Their nests inside these caves are crude collections of straw and branches in which they sleep. There is usually very little treasure in a gnasher cave, since they have no use for it. They generally leave it on the carcasses of the creatures they kill.

Like their cousins, winged gnashers live in packs. Winged gnasher leaders have 1 extra Hit Die and are larger than the rest of the pack. Intrapack struggles are common, as the younger males wish to try their strength against that of their leader. Those who fail are driven from the pack to try and fend for themselves in the wild. Unfortunately for these exiles, most wilderness creatures take the opportunity to eliminate lone gnashers when they can.

Ecology: Winged gnashers generally feed off land-based creatures, since most flying creatures are far more mobile and aerially agile than they are. Only if they attack by surprise can winged gnashers bring down the majority of flying creatures, and only if that creature is flying less than 40 feet above the ground.

Gnashers have no regard for the balance of nature, and they tend to completely eliminate every sizeable creature in an area. These areas are notable for their lack of animal life, and gnashers do not stay long in a place they have cleaned out.

Winged gnashers find that most other aerial monsters are their natural enemies, especially griffons and hippogriffs. These creatures will put aside their differences in order to eliminate gnasher packs. Thus, winged gnashers try to find places to live that are far from the nests of such creatures, for unless the other monster makes a foolish mistake, the gnashers are no match for them.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> The worg, upon which we modeled much of its stats, is "Usually neutral evil".  I think that's a good "role model".
> 
> Although the worg has treasure, I'm fine with leaving it off the gnashers.  They're more about the killin' and eatin'.




And the hatin', them gnashers enjoy a good hatin' afore a killin'.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, they're bigger, stronger, have more HD...




The changes look pretty straightforward

Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: +1 HD
Intelligence: 1 step higher- increase Int by 2?
Armor Class: 1 point higher - increase Dex by 2?
Movement: 30 ft., 20 ft. fly (clumsy)
Damage/Attack: 1 step higher
Special Attacks: They've got Surprise, so racial bonus to Hide and MS? 

Maybe they "fly quietly" to sneak up on prey, like an owl?


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Maybe they "fly quietly" to sneak up on prey, like an owl?




Good idea!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good idea!




Agreed, I'd make the bonus a bit lower than a Giant Owl's though, since they have leathery wings.

How about:

* When in flight, winged gnashers gain a +6 bonus on Move Silently checks.

Upon reflection, they don't need the higher Dex I proposed earlier assuming we give them the standard +2 to NA for increasing size to Large.

I'd give them a "half size" increase to their ability scores, since they ain't that much bigger than a regular gnasher.

That works out:

*Gnasher, Winged*
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 4d10+12 (34 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 20 ft. (clumsy)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+7)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pack overrun
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +1, Jump +7, Listen +6, Move Silently +3*, Spot +6, Survival +4*
Feats: Alertness, Track
Environment: Temperate forests and hills
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-20)
Challenge Rating: *3?*
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: *+2?* (cohort) or —

...

Skills: A winged gnasher has a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Move Silently, and  Spot checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Hide checks. 

*When in flight, winged gnashers gain a +6 bonus on Move Silently checks.

*A gnasher has a +4  racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2011)

That looks pretty good to me!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty good to me!




Hold on, I forgot the penalty to Hide for being a size bigger. Better stick the extra skill point in Hide while I'm at it...


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2011)

Let's do that, call them CR 3 and LA +2 (cohort), and slap them into homebrews...


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Should they have true flight, or should we borrow this again?

Gliding: A hadozee can use its wings to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A hadozee glides at a speed of 40 feet (poor maneuverability).


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

Glide does seem a better fit.  Do we need to spell out gliding charges?


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Glide does seem a better fit.  Do we need to spell out gliding charges?




Probably, and my gut's telling me we've done this somewhat recently...


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2011)

I have the feeling you're right, but I'm not sure where.  What about just doing this?

Gliding: A winged gnasher can use its wings to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A winged gnasher glides at a speed of 40 feet (poor maneuverability).  If a winged gnasher falls at least 20 ft vertically and at least 10 ft horizontally, it may make a gliding charge, gaining all the benefits and drawbacks of a charge attack.


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Should they have true flight, or should we borrow this again?




Yes, gliding does match the description better:

"They have batlike wings – thick membranes attached to their forelegs and running the length of their bodies – that enable them to leap into the air from these outcroppings and glide for distances of 50 feet for every 10 feet of height from which they leaped. However, their wings tend to tire easily, and they cannot maintain glides of over 200 feet. They can also leap into the air from the ground and glide for 20 feet, but they suffer a -2 attack penalty when attempting to bring down a target from such a jump."

I'd give them *clumsy* flight though, since the original had class E.


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

Clumsy makes sense.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Clumsy makes sense.  Updated.




The original winged gnasher was a very slow flyer, suggesting a gliding speed around 20 ft. That seems awful low for a flyer, so I don't mind a 40 ft. glide speed - maybe it's diving for double speed?

Anyhow, so it looks good so far.

All it needs is a shoulder height (3-4 feet?), weight (500-600 pounds?) and tactics.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Looks like it.


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Don't much like the "Additionally, winged gnashers glide silently after prey, then make a swift diving attack."

How's this:
Winged gnashers use tactics much like their land-based brethren,  circling around their prey until it is surrounded, and then closing in  with surprising speed. Winged gnashers fly quietly when gliding, and they often try to surprise opponents with diving attacks.​Further, winged gnashers are Large sized, so we should modify the sizes of the Pack Overrun attack. Something like:
*Pack Overrun (Ex):* A pack of four or more winged gnashers may use the overrun attack. The pack overrun prevents a Huge or smaller opponent from avoiding the overrun and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In addition, if the pack successfully overruns its opponent the pack may immediately end its movement in the opponent's square and pin the opponent. Pinning in subsequent rounds still requires successful opposed grapple checks.

For the overrun attempt and subsequent grapple checks, treat the gnasher pack as a single Huge creature with strength equal to that of the strongest gnasher in the pack (so that the pack cannot overrun creatures larger than Gargantuan). The gnashers' overrun and grapple checks also receive a bonus equal to the number of gnashers in the pack within reach of their target (that is, up to +4 for targets of Medium size or smaller, up to +8 for Large or Huge targets, or up to +12 for Gargantuan targets). Furthermore, any adjacent gnashers can choose to deal damage with their bite attacks during the grapple.​Apart from that I think they're done.


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## Shade (May 4, 2011)

Sounds good.  Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

Yup.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup.




What he said.


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

*Coral Worm*
Climate/Terrain: Deep coastal water 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Colony 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: (C) 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 10-100 
Armor Class: 0 (8 polyp) 
Movement: See below 
Hit Dice: 3 to 8 
THAC0: 17 (3-4 HD)
15 (5-6 HD)
13 (7-8 HD) 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d4 per HD 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Razor edges, retreat 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: L to H (7’ to 20’ long) 
Morale: Steady (11-12) 
XP Value: 270 to 2,000 

The tube of the coral worm ranges from 2 feet to 8 feet in diameter, stands from 2 feet to 20 feet tall, and looks like the precious pink, red-orange, or white variety. The worm itself has a long, black, sluglike body that exactly fits the diameter of the coral tube.

When prey approaches the coral reef, the worms dart out to their full length to attack the prey. Their mouths are lined with rough, bony plates able to grind coral or bite through a ship hull or armor. Their damage is based on their size, 1d4 per Hit Die, so a 4 HD creature inflicts 4d4 points of damage. If threatened, the coral worm can retreat into its tube, safe from all but the most persistent predator. Coral worms attack most creatures, but some types of lampreys and eels live with them and feed upon the scraps they leave.

The coral worm’s tube is covered with razor sharp ridges, 4 to 6 inches high and running several feet. Anyone coming into contact with these suffers 1d10 points of damage. The inside surface of the coral tube is pearly smooth.Coral worms might abandon their protective coral (where they are AC 0) to attack boats or swimmers. They move slowly (MV 3) and are only AC 8 when exposed.The coral tubes have no monetary value, but in a marine environment they are invaluable natural dwellings used by many creatures after the original worm has abandoned them.

Orginally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four (1998).


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Hmm, in this case, treat the tubes as some kind of armor that they can remove?

Anyway, 3HD Vermin?


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

Yeah, I don't see anything to indicate it needs to be a magical beast.

Start 'em Large, and borrow the ability scores from the similar Diopatra and Glycera?

Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5


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## freyar (May 13, 2011)

Looks good to me!

Also, give them adamantine bite?


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## Shade (May 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Also, give them adamantine bite?




Yeah, good idea.  Didn't we give another creature a similar ability without resorting to "adamantine"?


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## freyar (May 16, 2011)

Probably.  Can't remember what we used, though.  Penetrating, maybe?


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## Shade (May 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Probably.  Can't remember what we used, though.  Penetrating, maybe?




Bingo!

Penetrating Bite (Ex): A Large quickbiter's bite attack ignores the first 10 points of hardness. A Huge quickbiter's bite attack ignores the first 15 points of hardness.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Penetrating Bite (Ex): A Large quickbiter's bite attack ignores the first 10 points of hardness. A Huge quickbiter's bite attack ignores the first 15 points of hardness.




I'd prefer a "ignores hardness up to X" approach rather than "ignores the first X points of hardness", so it won't chew through iron like woodpulp.

i.e.:

Penetrating Bite (Ex): A coral worm's bite attack ignores hardness of 8 or less, but subtracts the full hardness value when damaging objects with hardness greater than 8.

May want to modify the name slightly.


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## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Good idea.  "Coral-Grinding Bite", or simply "Grinding Bite"?


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## Cleon (May 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good idea.  "Coral-Grinding Bite", or simply "Grinding Bite"?




My first impulse was just "grinding bite" but on reflection that doesn't indicate what sort of things it can grind through, so I like "coral-grinding" better:
*
Coral-Grinding Bite (Ex):* A coral worm's bite attack ignores hardness of 8  or less, but subtracts the full hardness value when damaging objects  with hardness greater than 8.


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## freyar (May 24, 2011)

Except the original monster says it can chew through armor, which (if metal, like usual) is hardness 10.  I'd prefer the "penetrating bite" mechanic in that case, though I'm ok with ignoring the first 8 points of hardness rather than the first 10 if y'all prefer.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Except the original monster says it can chew through armor, which (if metal, like usual) is hardness 10.  I'd prefer the "penetrating bite" mechanic in that case, though I'm ok with ignoring the first 8 points of hardness rather than the first 10 if y'all prefer.




I wouldn't but too much into it. There are plenty of AD&D combat entries with fluff text about a monster "biting through plate like tissue paper" and the like, very few of which have an armour-defeating power in their 3E incarnations. 

Furthermore, the AD&D Coral Worm does not get any bonuses "to hit" heavily armoured creatures, which it would have if it could ignore/circumvent armour (as in some AD&D creatures' attacks which treat opponents as AC10, the equivalent of 3Es touch-attack).

Besides, wouldn't we have to give them the ability to penetrate Damage Reduction to circumvent heavy armour, not hardness-piercing? Which only applies to full plate and the like.

I think we're better off just leaving it Coral-Grinding so it can chew through rock.


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## freyar (May 29, 2011)

We're not talking about ignoring armor or DR.  This is for ignoring hardness in sunder attempts.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> We're not talking about ignoring armor or DR.  This is for ignoring hardness in sunder attempts.




Oh right. The original text supports them being able to Sunder armour, so I suppose I'm OK with them getting a "reduce hardness by 8" SA. 

Are you proposing we add an "auto-sunder" special attack to the bite (like we played around with for the Barrel Spider), or just give them the Improved Sunder feat?

How much bite damage shall we give them, anyway? The original did 1d4  per HD so starts at 3d4. Use a more conventional 2d6 damage?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2011)

So, regular Penetrating Bite as before?  I'd just go with Improved Sunder*.  As for damage, 3d4 or 2d6 works for me.*


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> So, regular Penetrating Bite as before?  I'd just go with Improved Sunder*.  As for damage, 3d4 or 2d6 works for me.*



*

I'm OK with the -8 hardness Penetrating Bite, and Improved Sunder is fine by me.

2d6 seems plenty for the bite.*


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Ok, sounds like we're all agreed, then.


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## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Looks OK, except I'm not fond of its land speed being lower than its burrow speed. Make them both 10 ft.?

Challenge Rating 2?

Maybe make it a bit bigger than 7 ft, since that's rather short for a Large vermiform creature. Maybe the 7' length is only the body, and it has a tail that doubles it?

14 feet and 500 pounds?

A Purple Worm shrunk to 500 pounds would be 18.5 feet long, so that still makes the Coral Work stockier.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2011)

All sounds good.

Suggested body diameter?

Environment: Warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or colony (2-100)?

Treasure: x

Advancement: x


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> All sounds good.
> 
> Suggested body diameter?




The tube starts out at 2 foot diameter, so maybe 18 inches for the worm?



Shade said:


> Environment: Warm aquatic?




I'm leaning toward "Any Aquatic" since the original lives in deep coastal waters which are probably not that affected by surface temperature.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or colony (2-100)?




That fits.



Shade said:


> Treasure: x




The original had treasure when encountered in a colony, presumably from its victims. Maybe incidental, like a Monstrous Spider?

Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




4-6 HD (Large); 7-12 HD (Huge); 13-18 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

By the way, we seem to be forgetting the worm's Coral Tube.

The tube gives the worm an extra 8 points of armour and adds a "spiny defense":



			
				Monstrous Compendium Annual 4 said:
			
		

> The coral worm’s tube is covered with razor sharp ridges, 4 to 6 inches high and running several feet. Anyone coming into contact with these suffers 1d10 points of damage. The inside surface of the coral tube is pearly smooth. Coral worms might abandon their protective coral (where they are AC 0) to attack boats or swimmers.




I suggest something like this:

*Armored Tube (Ex):* Coral worms build tubes by cementing together shards of coral. The tube is covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside but pearly smooth inside. When fighting from inside its tube, a coral worm gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) plus a +4 circumstance bonus to its AC, for a total bonus to Armor Class  of +8. In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense (see below). A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover. The tube has hardness 7 and 25 hit points (50 for a Gargantuan worm, 100 for a Colossal worm).

*Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that attacks a coral worm inside its armored tube (or the tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d10 slashing damage from the razor-sharp coral shards covering the tube. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2011)

The line "If threatened, the coral worm can retreat into its tube, safe from all but the most persistent predator." suggests to me that it can't actually fight from within the tube.  Would you agree with that?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

freyar said:
			
		

> The line "If threatened, the coral worm can retreat into its tube, safe from all but the most persistent predator." suggests to me that it can't actually fight from within the tube. Would you agree with that?




Good point.  Further support...



> When prey approaches the coral reef, the worms dart out to *their full length* to attack the prey






> Coral worms might abandon their protective coral (where they are AC 0) to attack boats or swimmers.




That being said, I don't mind them being able to fight within their tube, but the tactics should indicate that is a rarity.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> That being said, I don't mind them being able to fight within their tube, but the tactics should indicate that is a rarity.




It says "Coral worms might abandon their protective coral (where they are AC 0) to attack boats or swimmers". That "might" suggests to me that they can catch prey from their protective coral tubes, and prefer to do so.

They're so slow they would have trouble catching prey by pursuit.

By the way, should we cut the Burrow Speed from these things? There's no mention of such in the original.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

I had a look in the Nehwon supplement to see whether the original version of the Coral Worm casts any light on the matter, and it has enough addition detail to be worth reproducing for comparison purposes:

*Giant Coral*
*Climate/Terrain:* Coastal to Deep Water
*Frequency:* Very Rare
*Organization:* Colony
*Activity Cycle:* Any
*Diet:* Carnivore
*Intelligence:* Animal (1)
*Treasure:* C
*Alignment:* Neutral
*No. Appearing:* 10-100
*Armor Class:* 0 (8) 
*Movement:* 12 in coral, Sw 3
*Hit Dice:* 3 to 8
*THAC0:*
3-4 HD: 17
5-6 HD: 15
7-8 HD: 13
*No. of Attacks:* 1
*Damage/Attack:* 1d4 per HD
*Special Attacks: *
*Special Defenses:* Retreat
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* L to H (7’ to 20’ long) 
*Morale:* Steady (11-12) 
*XP Value:*
3 HD: 270
4 HD: 420
5 HD: 650
6 HD: 975
7 HD: 1,400
8 HD: 2,000

Giant coral ranges from 2’-8’ in diameter and stands from 2’-20’ high. It is always colored the same as the precious variety of normal coral (red-orange, pinkish, or white). The animals which inhabit it don’t look like typical coral animals, but are long black slug like snakes whose diameter exactly fits their coral openings.

Giant coral have mouths lined with many rough bony plates which are capable of biting holes in rocks, ship hulls, and through armor.

*Combat: * Giant coral typically wait for their victims to approach their huge reef. They then dart out of their coral tubes to their full length and attack their victims with their rock grinding mouths. The damage from this is based upon their size. Roll 1d4 for each Hit Die of the monster (thus a 4 HD giant coral does 4d4 damage).

They are known to occasionally swim out of their protective coral tubes (AC 0) and attack boats or swimming victims. However, they swim very slowly and are only AC 8.

Although the inside of the coral tubes are pearly smooth, the outsides are covered with razor sharp ridges some 4”-6” high, and running several feet. Anyone coming into contact with these ridges suffer 1d10 points of damage.

If threatened, giant coral can retreat into the safety of their reef where only the foolish pursue them as areas open up where many of the beings can attack at once.
*
Habitat/Society: *Giant coral are considered a threat to all. However, there are rumors that they allow certain lampreys and eels to live with them.

*Ecology**: *The coral from their tubes is considered valueless. However, the intact tube complexes are an invaluable naturally occurring dwelling used by many different marine animals (both intelligent and non-intelligent). The listed treasure represents the remains of past victims.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

Okay, the "Giant Coral" from Nehwon gives it quite a bit of additional info.

Firstly, this creature is not a true worm, but a giant carnivorous coral polyp. Its tube is secreted, not built up like a tube worm.

Secondly, colonies of these "Coral Worms" live in reefs formed of maze-like complexes of interlinked tubes. Each worm lives in its own tube at the edge of this reef that connects to the tube complex. The creature can swim out from its tube to pursue prey, or retreat into the depth of the reef to avoid threats.

Thirdly, they only "occasionally" swim out of their tubes, giving added evidence for being able to fight from inside a tube.

Fourthly, they can move relatively quickly (12") while inside a tube, but are slow swimmers outside. That suggests  revising the tube info to something like:

*Coral Tube (Ex):* Coral worms secrete tubes of coral to live inside. The tube  pearly smooth inside, but covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside. When fighting from inside a tube, a coral worm gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) plus a  +4 circumstance bonus to its AC, for a total bonus to Armor Class  of  +8. In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense  (see below). A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside a coral tube  to gain the benefits of full cover.

The coral tubes of a colony of coral worms interconnect to form an extensive reef. Such tube complexes are a maze of passages which open into chambers where many coral worms can simultaneously attack intruders from all sides.

Coral tubes have hardness 7 and 50 hit  points per 5 ft. section.

*Spiny Defense (Ex):*  Any creature outside a coral tube that attacks a coral worm inside the tube (or the  tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d10 slashing  damage from the razor-sharp shards covering the tube. Note that  weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger  their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based. 	
*
Tubular Speed (Ex):* A coral worm can move at a speed of 30 ft. when any part of its body is within a coral tube.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

But there's this:



> Giant coral typically wait for their victims to approach their huge reef. They then dart out of their coral tubes to their full length and attack their victims with their rock grinding mouths.




That sounds like they don't attack while in their tubes, except if someone follows them inside and reaches an open area in the tube maze:



> If threatened, giant coral can retreat into the safety of their reef where only the foolish pursue them as areas open up where many of the beings can attack at once.




I think I'm going to stick to my guns on this unless you can give me better evidence.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> But there's this:
> 
> That sounds like they don't attack while in their tubes, except if someone follows them inside and reaches an open area in the tube maze:




They only _*occasionally*_ leave their tubes to attack prey. That infers that they _*usually*_ attack prey while in their tubes, presumably by "stretching out" from them.

I don't see how you could possibly interpret that as meaning they can't attack from inside a coral tube.

Further, it says a coral tube lair starts out 2' wide and 2' long, but the "long black slug like snakes" that live within the tube are at least 7' long.

That suggests that they're coiled or compacted inside the tube and stretch out to their full length when attacking.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Right, they're stretched out, outside of their tubes.  "They then dart out of their coral tubes to their full length and attack their victims with their rock grinding mouths."  That sure sounds like they are outside of their tubes.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Right, they're stretched out, outside of their tubes.  "They then dart out of their coral tubes to their full length and attack their victims with their rock grinding mouths."  That sure sounds like they are outside of their tubes.




Yeah, that seems pretty definitive to me too.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Ok, if that's settled, how about this?

Armored Tube (Ex): Coral worms build tubes by cementing together shards of coral. The tube is covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside but pearly smooth inside. A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover.  In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense (see below).  The tube has hardness 7 and 25 hit points (50 for a Gargantuan worm, 100 for a Colossal worm).

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that attacks a coral worm inside its armored tube (or the tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d10 slashing damage from the razor-sharp coral shards covering the tube. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based.

As for the speed thing, why not just give it a higher base speed than the swim speed?  If necessary, we can add a note that they can use their base speed in their tubes.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, if that's settled, how about this?




No it ain't, cause they must keep at least contact with their tubes when they stretch out otherwise they would leave them every time they attack, not just "occasionally".

Anyhow, since this bit:



freyar said:


> Armored Tube (Ex): Coral worms build tubes by cementing together shards of coral. The tube is covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside but pearly smooth inside. A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover.  In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense (see below).  The tube has hardness 7 and 25 hit points (50 for a Gargantuan worm, 100 for a Colossal worm).
> 
> Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that attacks a coral worm inside its armored tube (or the tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d10 slashing damage from the razor-sharp coral shards covering the tube. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based.




In no way prevents them from attacking while inside their tube I think we're getting there...

What about the reef complex of interlinking tubes though, and changing the "built up" tube flavour to a "secreted" tube?

I'm also thinking it's easier making the coral tube HP independent of the size of worm, since the original version implies giant coral animals of different sizes share a reef and use communal tubes.

Hence:

*Coral Tube (Ex):* Coral worms secrete tubes of coral to live  inside. The tube  pearly smooth inside, but covered with razor-sharp  ridges on the outside. When fighting from inside a tube, a coral worm  gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) plus a  +4 circumstance  bonus to its AC, for a total bonus to Armor Class  of  +8. In addition,  the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense  (see below). A  coral worm can withdraw entirely inside a coral tube  to gain the  benefits of full cover.

The coral tubes of a colony of coral worms interconnect to form an  extensive reef. Such tube complexes are a maze of passages which open  into chambers where many coral worms can simultaneously attack intruders  from all sides.

Coral tubes have hardness 7 and 50 hit  points per 5 ft. section.

*Spiny Defense (Ex):*   Any creature outside a coral tube that attacks a coral worm inside the  tube (or the  tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take  1d10 slashing  damage from the razor-sharp shards covering the tube.  Note that  weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not  endanger  their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based.     
*
Tubular Speed (Ex):* A coral worm can move at a speed of 30 ft. when any part of its body is within a coral tube.



freyar said:


> As for the speed thing, why not just give it a higher base speed than the swim speed?  If necessary, we can add a note that they can use their base speed in their tubes.




The original version seems quite clear about them being speed 12" when inside their coral tubes and swimming at 3" outside it. There's no mention of them crawling as fast as a man when outside their tube. Indeed, the MCA4 version says "They move slowly (MV 3) and are only AC 8 when exposed" without saying what form that movement is - which suggests they might swim _*or crawl*_ at 10 ft. or so outside their tubes while moving at 30 ft. inside their tubes.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2011)

Didn't you just repost what you had before that Shade and I didn't like?

The thing is, if it stretches out of its tube "to its full length" it's not inside the tube anymore!  And that's how it attacks. Besides, the tubes are rigid, so it can't stay within the tube and turn its head, etc, to attack.  The bit about "occasionally" leaving the tube means literally swimming out away from the tube to somewhere else.

As for the speed, I think you're probably over-parsing the original text, since it seems just like vague language to me.  And I doubt the original design was intended to be so complex.  I'll let Shade decide.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

I agree that "to its full length" would prevent any cover benefit from the tube.

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other about the "tubular speed", but what's the logic behind it?   If it's because it can propel itself from more surfaces, then a climb speed would seem a better fit.  If it is because of water jets or somesuch, wouldn't any creature in the tube gain a swifter speed?   If its supernatural, then it would need to become a magical beast.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2011)

Good point; how does the tubular speed work?


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Didn't you just repost what you had before that Shade and I didn't like?




That's right. Since it was correct before it's correct now. 



freyar said:


> The thing is, if it stretches out of its tube "to its full length" it's not inside the tube anymore!  And that's how it attacks. Besides, the tubes are rigid, so it can't stay within the tube and turn its head, etc, to attack.  The bit about "occasionally" leaving the tube means literally swimming out away from the tube to somewhere else.




I imagine it's only stretched out for the brief moment it makes the bite attack. Like if an orc stabs a PC through an arrowslit the orc doesn't have its arm sticking out the embrasure for the entire round.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other about the "tubular speed", but what's the logic behind it?   If it's because it can propel itself from more surfaces, then a climb speed would seem a better fit.  If it is because of water jets or somesuch, wouldn't any creature in the tube gain a swifter speed?   If its supernatural, then it would need to become a magical beast.




Well the original Lankhmar version clearly states "*Movement:* 12 in coral, Sw 3" but neglected to explain the mechanism as to why it moves quickly through coral (which I presume to mean moving through the tube-complex of a giant coral reef rather than burrowing, since there's no mention of a burrow speed). Regardless, it infers that the coral worm is specially adapted for slithering quickly through its coral tubes.

If I were to hazard a guess, the "slug like" coral beast has a specialized mollusc-style foot that goes all around its body, so when it's in a tube it can simultaneously push against the walls and ceiling as well as the floor to move itself along. When in normal terrain (e.g. outside the reef) it can only push against whatever surface it's lying on and is reduced to the speed of an ordinary giant snail.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If I were to hazard a guess, the "slug like" coral beast has a specialized mollusc-style foot that goes all around its body, so when it's in a tube it can simultaneously push against the walls and ceiling as well as the floor to move itself along. When in normal terrain (e.g. outside the reef) it can only push against whatever surface it's lying on and is reduced to the speed of an ordinary giant snail.




In that case, I'd vote to either make it a climb speed or just drop the "coral speed" entirely.  It just feels really odd and tacked-on, an obvious artifact of an older system.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> In that case, I'd vote to either make it a climb speed or just drop the "coral speed" entirely.  It just feels really odd and tacked-on, an obvious artifact of an older system.



My vote is to make it a climb speed.

As for the arrow slit, are you allowed to stab through one?  Maybe with a squeezing penalty or something.  Anyway, what if they take an AoO?  Then they shouldn't get the AC bonus from the tube.  I'm not sure how to resolve this, though I see your point to some extent.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> In that case, I'd vote to either make it a climb speed or just drop the "coral speed" entirely.  It just feels really odd and tacked-on, an obvious artifact of an older system.




Well, why don't we agree to differ and do a "Coral Worm" based on the Monstrous Compendium Appendix while I whip up an Obviously Superior Cleon Special™ based on the original Lankhmar version?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, why don't we agree to differ and do a "Coral Worm" based on the Monstrous Compendium Appendix while I whip up an Obviously Superior Cleon Special™ based on the original Lankhmar version?




Sounds like a plan. Let's finish our Obviously Inferior and Not Special ™ version.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sounds like a plan. Let's finish our Obviously Inferior and Not Special ™ version.




Agreed!


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

Sure.  Tell you what, I'll also compromise on the armored tube.  Let me suggest the following revisions:

Armored Tube (Ex): Coral worms build tubes by cementing together shards of coral. The tube is covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside but pearly smooth inside. When fighting, a coral worm typically lunges from the mouth of its tube to its full reach of 10 ft, returning to the tube's interior at the end of its attack.  When not attacking, the coral worm gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) from the tube; however, the worm does not gain this cover during its attack action (for example, if its attack is interrupted by an Attack of Opportunity).   In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense (see below). A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover. The tube has hardness 7 and 25 hit points (50 for a Gargantuan worm, 100 for a Colossal worm).

That makes the bonus from the tube not too overpowering, and it's probably complicated enough even for Cleon.   Are we putting in the Climb speed for the tubular business?


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure.  Tell you what, I'll also compromise on the armored tube.  Let me suggest the following revisions:
> 
> Armored Tube (Ex): Coral worms build tubes by cementing together shards of coral. The tube is covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside but pearly smooth inside. When fighting, a coral worm typically lunges from the mouth of its tube to its full reach of 10 ft, returning to the tube's interior at the end of its attack.  When not attacking, the coral worm gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) from the tube; however, the worm does not gain this cover during its attack action (for example, if its attack is interrupted by an Attack of Opportunity).   In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the worm a spiny defense (see below). A coral worm can withdraw entirely inside its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover. The tube has hardness 7 and 25 hit points (50 for a Gargantuan worm, 100 for a Colossal worm).
> 
> That makes the bonus from the tube not too overpowering, and it's probably complicated enough even for Cleon.   Are we putting in the Climb speed for the tubular business?




Where's the complications? It seems perfectly straightforward to me. 

I like the "the worm does not gain this cover during its attack action" bit, I might steal it...


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2011)

Whew, glad that's done!


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## Cleon (Jun 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Whew, glad that's done!




So, assuming Shade's OK with that, are we about done with this critter?

Haven't got around to doing much work on my Cleon Special™  version yet.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looks OK. Time for me to work on my Cleon Special!

EDIT: And the Cleon Special is finished!


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

*Coral Beast Cleon Special*

*Coral Beast
*Large Animal (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +5
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), climb 10 ft., swim 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 12 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+10
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (2d6+6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (2d6+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Coral-grinding bite, spiny defense
*Special Qualities:* Coral tube, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, tremorsense 60 ft., tubular speed, verminous beast
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +0
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 9, Cha 5
*Skills:* Climb +12, Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +12
*Feats:* Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, cluster (2-12) or colony (10-100)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large); 7-9 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A long, black, slug-like snake-beast darts out of a nearby coral tube. A gaping mouthful of rough, bony plates leads the creature’s lunge._

Coral beasts are predatory animals that live within tubes of coral they secrete themselves. While each animal lairs within its own coral tube, the tubes of a colony of coral beasts interconnect to form a giant reef. Such tube complexes are a maze of passages, which open into chambers where many coral beasts can attack intruders simultaneously from all sides. Abandoned coral tubes rarely remain uninhabited for long. Many marine creatures find such tubes a perfect home.

Coral beasts have a slug-like foot that extends around their entire body. When crawling across a normal surface, such as the sea floor, they can only propel themselves with the underside of their body. When within their coral tubes (or a similar smooth tunnel that snugly fits around their body), these animals can use their whole body to push themselves along, resulting in an impressive crawling speed for a mollusc-like animal.

Coral beasts eat anything they can catch, but allow some types of lampreys and eels to live among them and feed upon their scraps.

The body of a typical coral beast is 18 inches in diameter and 14 feet in length, weighing about 500 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Coral beasts lie in wait within their protective coral tubes. When prey approaches the coral reef, the animals dart out to their full length to attack. These beasts occasionally swim out of their tubes to attack nearby prey or passing boats, but this is rare.

Coral beasts retreat into the depths of their tube complex if threatened. Anyone foolish enough to pursue a coral beast into interior of their reef will be attacked from all sides by the entire colony.

*Coral Tube (Ex):* Coral beasts secrete tubes of coral to live inside. The tube is pearly smooth inside, but covered with razor-sharp ridges on the outside. When fighting from inside a tube, a coral beast gains cover (+4 to AC and +2 to Reflex saves) plus a +4 circumstance bonus to its natural armor bonus, for a total bonus to Armor Class of +8. However, the coral beast does not gain this cover bonus during an attack action (for example, if its attack is interrupted by an Attack of Opportunity). In addition, the razor-sharp exterior gives the beast a spiny defense (see below). A coral beast can withdraw entirely inside a coral tube to gain the benefits of full cover.

Coral tubes have hardness 7 and 50 hit points per 5 ft. section. A coral beast fighting from within a coral tube has the following statistics:

*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 cover, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +0

*Coral-Grinding Bite (Ex):* A coral beast's bite attack ignores hardness of 8 or less, but subtracts the full hardness value when damaging objects with hardness greater than 8.

*Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature outside a coral tube that attacks a coral beast inside the tube (or the tube itself) must succeed at a DC 12 Reflex save or take 1d10 slashing damage from the razor-sharp shards covering the tube. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. the save DC is Dexterity-based.*

Tubular Speed (Ex):* A coral beast can move at a speed of 30 ft. when any part of its body is within a coral tube.

*Verminous Beast: (Ex):* A coral beast is affected by spells, magical items and other effects as if it were a Vermin rather than an Animal. Unlike true Vermin it is not mindless, so has no immunity to mind-affecting effects.

*Skills:* A coral beast has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. A coral beast has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Here's the next one...

*Stone Snake*
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Minerals 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: Q×5 
Alignment: Nil 
No. Appearing: 1-2 
Armor Class: -2 
Movement: 9 
Hit Dice: 8 
THAC0: 13 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 2-20 or 1-8 
Special Attacks: Poison 
Special Defenses: Immune to fire, poison; ¼ damage by edged and piercing weapons 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: H (20-25’ long) 
Morale: Steady (11) 
XP Value: 3,000 

The stone snake is similar to its more mundane cousins, except that its body is made up of segments of a stony mineral that resembles granite. It is this hard outer body covering that provides the stone snake with its exceptional Armor Class. A stone snake’s diet consists of mineral substances, but its prefered meal is any creature that it has petrified with its special poison.

A stone snake’s color ranges generally from eggshell to rosy pink, with striations of mauve to black, similar to most colors of granite.

Combat: The stone snake attacks with a lightning-quick jab of its blunt, stony snout, causing 2d10 points of bludgeoning damage. Alternatively, the stone snake can make a bite attack, causing 1d8 points of damage and injecting a virulent poison into its victim, who must make a successful saving throw vs. petrification with a -6 penalty. If the saving throw is failed, the poison takes effect, slowly petrifying the victim over 5 rounds.

Because the stone snake’s body is so hard, it can withstand the blows of most weapons fairly well, hence its low Armor Class. Edged and piercing weapons cause only one-quarter damage to a stone snake.

Habitat/Society: Stone snakes are always found individually or in mated pairs. The female stone snake lays 1-6 eggs in the early fall, and then watches over them while the male scavenges for food for the both of them. The eggs themselves are very similar in color to the parents, and roughly 16 to 18 inches long. When the young hatch, they are white in color, slowly developing camouflaging hues over the first six months, at which point they are driven from the nest to survive on their own. A stone snake yearling is typically 10 to 12 feet long and its poisonous bite is somewhat weaker; the saving throw penalty for these younger specimens is only -2. Stone snakes of this age typically hunt smaller creatures such as giant rats and beetles.

Even though the main diet of a stone snake consists of mineral matter, certain types of gems seem to be undigestable by it, and these are typically found in the lair among the refuse. Gems that are not digested iclude diamonds, garnets, tanzanite, and zircons. Beyond this treasure, any items that would not have remained tucked away on a victim’s body (a dropped weapon or shield) can sometimes be found near a stone snake’s lair.

Ecology: The stone snake consumes mineral matter that it scavenges, usually in subterranean areas with lots of crystalline formations. When a stone snake has petrified a victim, it drags the prey off to its lair for safety and then slowly swallows it whole, digesting the meal over the course of several days, depended on the size of the victim. During this digestion period, the stone snake seems to go into a hibernation stage, so it does not move and is much easier to kill. Stone snake egg yolk is a prized ingredient for the ink used to inscribe the wizard spell stoneskin onto a scroll.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One version.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's the next one...
> 
> *Stone Snake*




This one looks like it'll be pretty straightforward.

Take a Huge Viper, add a couple of HD, increase its NA, give it DR X/bludgeoning and toss on two immunities.

Magical Beast (Earth), obviously.

I think I'll do a Working Draft.

EDIT: Hold on, it also has a "snout smash" attack. That's a bit different from a standard Viper. I think I'd better give it a Str and Con boost too...


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

*Stone Snake Working Draft*

*Stone** Snake*
Huge Magical Beast (Earth)
Hit Dice: 8d10+16 (60 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+23
Attack: Slam +15 melee (2d10+10) or bite +14 melee (1d8+7 plus petrifying venom)
Full Attack: Slam +15 melee (2d10+10) or bite +14 melee (1d8+7  plus petrifying venom)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrifying venom
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR X/bludgeoning, immunity to fire, immunity to poison, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +15, Hide +5, Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam)?, *plus one [*Ability Damage (poison)? - that venom is _nasty_*]*
Environment: Subterranean
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Double or triple goods (gems only)?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Description

Background

A typical stone snake is 20 to 25 feet long [make it 40-50' to match the others?] and weighs X [should be heavy?].

COMBAT
Tactics.

A stone snake attacks with a lightning-quick jab of its blunt, stony snout, it adds 1½ times its Strength bonus to the damage of this slam attack.

Petrifying Venom (Su?): Initial damage slows, secondary damage petrification, +4 racial bonus. Does anti-poison magic work against it?

Skills: Stone snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A stone snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's the next one...
> 
> *Stone Snake*
> 
> Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One version.




I checked the sources and the version shade posted is from Dragon Mountain, not the MCA1. There aren't any significant differences between the two, so it matters little.

A few words on the working draft. I gave it a Constrictor Snake's Strength, since it does really impressive damage with its snout. I'm thinking the DR should be 10/ or even 15/, since 1/4 damage is quite impressive for AD&D.

You might notice I dropped the standard snake's Swim speed, since presumable this snake sinks like a stone.

I'm not sure about whether to keep the 20-25 ft. length. A Huge Purple Worm would be 40 feet or so, so it seems rather short.

We could either 

(1) Reduce its size to Large and keep the length.
(2) Increase the length to something more typical for a Huge serpent.
(3) Keep the length and say stone snakes are atypically massive for snakes, being exceptionally thick bodied like a pit viper _*and made of granite*_.

Of those options, I currently prefer (3).


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't think density changes your size category.  I'd favor option (1).

DR 10/bludgeoning is probably enough for it's likely CR.

I believe we've done a slow petrification venom before if we'd rather use that than a straight "petrification poison."


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't think density changes your size category.  I'd favor option (1).




Same here.



freyar said:


> DR 10/bludgeoning is probably enough for it's likely CR.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> I believe we've done a slow petrification venom before if we'd rather use that than a straight "petrification poison."




Here's one: 

Creature Catalog - Preview Creature


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Hmm, that slow petrifying gaze could work.  I guess the question is how many saves we want to give and how granular the transition to petrification should be.  Any thoughts?


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't think density changes your size category.  I'd favor option (1).




That's the main reason I suggested it was _*exceptionally thick bodied*_, not just denser. There's a lot of difference in body shape between a pit viper and an average tree snake, you know.



freyar said:


> DR 10/bludgeoning is probably enough for it's likely CR.




Fine by me.


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, that slow petrifying gaze could work.  I guess the question is how many saves we want to give and how granular the transition to petrification should be.  Any thoughts?




Hmm, the permanently slowed damage is *nasty*! I hadn't considered the duration (if any) of the original slow effect.

I don't think we should have more than 2 saving, since the original venom was extremely nasty. For example, if it needs 5 failed saves in a row to take full effect it makes it much less likely.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm leaning toward the poison-type approach Cleon has above at the moment.  With regard to that, I'd make it a poison (subject to neutralize poison, etc), since that's what the original monster seemed to intend (called it a poison).  It'd just have funny damage.  I'd also suggest a 2 minute-ish duration for the slowing effect, so the victim would be slow until petrifying and would have quite some trouble even if it avoids being petrified.

Also, where does it say that it has an exceptionally thick body?  I'm just not seeing it.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm leaning toward the poison-type approach Cleon has above at the moment.  With regard to that, I'd make it a poison (subject to neutralize poison, etc), since that's what the original monster seemed to intend (called it a poison).  It'd just have funny damage.  I'd also suggest a 2 minute-ish duration for the slowing effect, so the victim would be slow until petrifying and would have quite some trouble even if it avoids being petrified.




Yes, I was thinking a random duration of some form 1d3, 1d4, 1d4+1 or 2d4 minutes? I'm leaning toward 1d4+1 to it caps out at 5 rounds, since the original poison took effect over 5 rounds.



freyar said:


> Also, where does it say that it has an exceptionally thick body?  I'm just not seeing it.




It doesn't, I'm applying creative license. It feels right to have it at the heftier end of the snake bodyplan. Wouldn't a "granite" body be brittle, so likely to break if it were thin?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2011)

You want 1d4+1 rounds or minutes?  I'd prefer minutes, just to make it last a little longer.

Granite's not actually brittle unless you've wedged something in a crack that's already there.  And I'd imagine it's quite resistant to slashing weapons due to the high hardness of quartz.


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## Cleon (Jul 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> You want 1d4+1 rounds or minutes?  I'd prefer minutes, just to make it last a little longer.




Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking 1E AD&D rounds for the "5 rounds", where 1 round = 1 minute, so the middle bit should say "caps out at 5 minutes".



freyar said:


> Granite's not actually brittle unless you've wedged something in a crack that's already there.  And I'd imagine it's quite resistant to slashing weapons due to the high hardness of quartz.




Those examples are more a question of toughness than brittleness. I was thinking of it in the engineering sense, i.e. a "Brittle" material will snap under a small strain (in the technical "how much it is bent" sense of strain), although it may require a large stress force to actually bend it.

Besides, I wasn't thinking it was exactly like granite, hence the quotes around "granite". For all we know, the "stone" flesh of the snake may be closer in mechanical properties to another, more fragile stone. The AD&D version only says it "a stony mineral that resembles granite", after all, so the similarity may be purely aesthetic.

Also, this "granite" seems to be a "hard outer body covering". Does it have a squishy internal organs inside, maybe Silicon-based?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2011)

Well, I still prefer Large given the length.

1d4+1 minutes it is!


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## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I still prefer Large given the length.
> 
> 1d4+1 minutes it is!




I don't mind reducing the size to Large, but I'd still like to make it a fairly thick-bodied snake.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I don't mind reducing the size to Large, but I'd still like to make it a fairly thick-bodied snake.



Description and flavor text are fair game for that.  I'm not sure making it thick-bodied would bump the size category up anyway; it's still a snake.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Description and flavor text are fair game for that.  I'm not sure making it thick-bodied would bump the size category up anyway; it's still a snake.




Hmm, I'm having second thoughts.

Its strength and natural weapon damage dice would be rather high for a Large-sized serpentine monster, going by the SRD Polar Worm and Giant Constrictor.

Maybe we should keep it Huge and increase the length?

Anyhow, I'll post a Large version (with lowered Str) to see how they compare.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

*Stone Snake Working Draft*

*Stone** Snake*
Large Magical Beast (Earth)
Hit Dice: 8d10+16 (60 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+17
Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d10+7/19-20) or bite +12 melee (1d8+5 plus petrifying venom)
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d10+7/19-20) or bite +12 melee (1d8+5  plus petrifying venom)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrifying venom
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 10/bludgeoning, immunity to fire, immunity to poison, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +9, Climb +13, Hide +8, Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Subterranean
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: Triple goods (gems only)
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large); 13-24 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

_A large serpent, the thick hide of its segmented body looks like granite.

_Stone  snakes get their name because their bodies are made up of a stony  mineral, and because their bite can turn living creatures into stone.

A stone snake eats mineral matter, mostly by scavenging from crystalline  formations underground. However, it prefers to eat prey it  has  petrified with its venom. The snake drags prey off to  its lair and then  slowly swallows it whole, digesting the meal over the  course of  several days. If a petrified victim is too big to swallow, the stone  snake smashes it to pieces with blows from its snout. A stone snake is  unable to digest certain types of gems, such  gemstones can often be  found among the refuse in a stone snake's lair.

Stone snakes are encountered individually or in mated pairs. Female  stone snakes lay 1-6 eggs in early fall, and then guard their nest while  the male provides food. The eggs share the parents'  coloration and are  about 1½ feet long. Newly hatched young are alabaster white; they  slowly develop camouflaging  hues over their first six months, then are  driven from the  nest to survive on their own.

A typical stone snake is 20 to 25 feet long and weighs 1200 to 1500   pounds. Coloration matches most kinds of granite, ranging from eggshell  to rosy pink, with  striations of mauve to black.

COMBAT

A stone snake usually hides and waits for potential prey to approach it,  then attacks with a lightning-quick jab of its blunt, stony  snout or a  bite with its petrifying fangs. It adds 1½ times its Strength bonus to  the damage of this slam  attack.

*Petrifying Venom (Su):* A stone snake's bite injects a virulent   supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage slows the   victim (as the spell) for 1d4+1 minutes, the secondary damage  permanently  turns the victim to stone. Effects that resist poison, such  as the _ delay poison _spell, antitoxin or a dwarf's resistance to  poison, will  affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were  mundane poison.  Petrifying venom can be treated with the Heal skill as  if it were  poison, but with a -5 penalty on the skill check. A  petrified victim can only be returned to  normal by a _stone to flesh_ spell or similar magic.  The save DC  is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

* Skills:* Stone snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot  checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A stone snake  can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or  threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity  modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

Hmm, I think that'll do with the reduced Strength. I like the way the Advancement hits Huge at about the same HD as a Giant Constrictor (11 HD) and Frost Worm (14 HD).

Don't care for the +11 NA, I'm going to return it to +12 and lower the Dexterity to 13, midway between a Huge Viper (Dex 15) and Frost Worm (Dex 10).


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Ability Focus does seem a bit cruel considering the potency of its venom.  Since its BAB is high enough, how about Improved Critical (bite)?


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Ability Focus does seem a bit cruel considering the potency of its venom.  Since its BAB is high enough, how about Improved Critical (bite)?




Actually, I was thinking if we give the poison DC a high enough racial bonus then it'll be cruel enough, and we can use the feat to make it crueler in some other area. 

Which reminds me, I need to update the Working Draft with the Petrifying Venom we settled on.

Don't much care for Improved Critical on the bite, the poison should be nasty enough. 

Frost Worms have Iron Will, how about that?


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Imp Crit works. Or Iron Will, though it's a little boring.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Actually, I was thinking if we give the poison DC a high enough racial bonus then it'll be cruel enough, and we can use the feat to make it crueler in some other area.




I think it's fine without a racial bonus or Ability Focus!



Cleon said:


> Don't much care for Improved Critical on the bite, the poison should be nasty enough.
> 
> Frost Worms have Iron Will, how about that?




Let me echo your "don't much care for" sentiment with that boring ol' save-booster.   How about something else combat-oriented?  Maybe Power Attack or Combat Reflexes?


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

I updated the *Working Draft* with Petrifying Venom.

I did wonder about a nastier version, as given below, but decided it was too vicious:

*Petrifying Venom (Su):* A stone snake's bite injects a virulent supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage _slows_  the victim for 1d4+1 damage (as the spell), the secondary damage  permanently turns the victim to stone. Spells and magical effects that resist poison, such  as the _delay poison_ spell or a unicorn's horn, will affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were  mundane poison. Non-magical effect that resist poison have no effect, so antitoxin, treatment with the Heal skill or a dwarf's bonus to save versus poison are all useless. The save DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

However, I wouldn't mind applying a penalty to treatment with the Heal skill. It doesn't seem like something that should be easy to cure with natural remedies.

Example:

*Petrifying Venom (Su):* A stone snake's bite injects a virulent supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage slows the victim for 1d4+1 damage (as the spell), the secondary damage permanently turns the victim to stone. Effects that resist poison, such as the _delay poison_ spell, antitoxin or a dwarf's resistance to poison, will affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were mundane poison. Petrifying venom can be treated with the Heal skill as if it were poison, but with a -5 [*?*] penalty on the skill check. The save DC includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think it's fine without a racial bonus or Ability Focus!




The original monster's poison had a -6 penalty to its saving throws. That's incredibly nasty for AD&D, so I think we have to add a racial bonus.



Shade said:


> Let me echo your "don't much care for" sentiment with that boring ol' save-booster.   How about something else combat-oriented?  Maybe Power Attack or Combat Reflexes?




Neither of those really thrill me, although of the two I prefer Power Attack .

How about *Reckless Offence* or *Power Critical* (slam)? They're not the best performing feats tactically, but they seem good fits for its modus operandi.

Hmm, I wouldn't mind Improved Critical (slam) either, but I don't fancy Improved Critical for the bite.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> The original monster's poison had a -6 penalty to its saving throws. That's incredibly nasty for AD&D, so I think we have to add a racial bonus.




Ahh...I'm convinced.



Cleon said:


> Hmm, I wouldn't mind Improved Critical (slam) either, but I don't fancy Improved Critical for the bite.




Nor would I.  I just fancied Improved Critical, so color me content.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Do we need to mention (for the literal-minded DM) that anti-poison treatments don't work once the victim is actually petrified (but that stone to flesh would)? 

Power Critical sounds fun, actually, but Imp Crit is ok.  Either one on the slam.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do we need to mention (for the literal-minded DM) that anti-poison treatments don't work once the victim is actually petrified (but that stone to flesh would)?




I don't think that's necessary, but if you want to write out a proposal I'll humour it. 



freyar said:


> Power Critical sounds fun, actually, but Imp Crit is ok.  Either one on the slam.




Sounds like we're going for Improved Critical then.

Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2011)

How about this?

Petrifying Venom (Su): A stone snake's bite injects a virulent supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage slows the victim for 1d4+1 damage (as the spell), the secondary damage permanently turns the victim to stone. Effects that resist poison, such as the delay poison spell, antitoxin or a dwarf's resistance to poison, will affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were mundane poison. Petrifying venom can be treated with the Heal skill as if it were poison, but with a -5 [?] penalty on the skill check. However, a victim that has already been completely petrified can only be returned to normal by means of a stone to flesh spell or similar magic.  The save DC includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about this?
> 
> Petrifying Venom (Su): A stone snake's bite injects a virulent supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage slows the victim for 1d4+1 damage (as the spell), the secondary damage permanently turns the victim to stone. Effects that resist poison, such as the delay poison spell, antitoxin or a dwarf's resistance to poison, will affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were mundane poison. Petrifying venom can be treated with the Heal skill as if it were poison, but with a -5 [?] penalty on the skill check. However, a victim that has already been completely petrified can only be returned to normal by means of a stone to flesh spell or similar magic.  The save DC includes a +4 racial bonus.




Looks a good start. It's missing the "Constitution-based" bit and the penultimate sentence could have some excess verbiage trimmed.

How's this...

*Petrifying Venom (Su):* A stone snake's bite injects a virulent  supernatural poison (DC20 Fort save). The initial damage slows the  victim (as the spell) for 1d4+1 minutes, the secondary damage permanently  turns the victim to stone. Effects that resist poison, such as the _ delay poison _spell, antitoxin or a dwarf's resistance to poison, will  affect a stone snake's petrifying venom as if it were mundane poison.  Petrifying venom can be treated with the Heal skill as if it were  poison, but with a -5 [?] penalty on the skill check. A petrified victim can only be returned to  normal by a _stone to flesh_ spell or similar magic.  The save DC  is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

I'm thinking the Heal check DC could be nastier, maybe -7, -8 or even -10?

Hmm, I suppose  it'd be nice to let people who'd actually invested in the Heal skill have a moderate chance of success at the snake's likely CR, and it has already got the racial bonus build into the DC.

I'd leave it at -5 for the time being.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2011)

I think -5 is sufficiently hefty.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think -5 is sufficiently hefty.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

That just leaves us with CR and Treasure.

Challenge Rating 6? They're pretty nasty for an 8 Hit Dice monster.

Triple goods (gems only)? The original's quintuple Q is a *lot* of gemstones.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Challenge Rating 6? They're pretty nasty for an 8 Hit Dice monster.
> 
> Triple goods (gems only)? The original's quintuple Q is a *lot* of gemstones.




Agreed to all that.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all that.




 Updating the *Working Draft*.

Anything else for the mechanical side of them?

They need a weight. A boa-type snake that length should weigh about 300 pounds, a very thick-bodied pit viper like a Gaboon Viper might weigh 600-800 pounds if enlarged to that size.

Add to that the fact that _*it's made out of stone*_ and I think we can set the weight to 1200-1500 pounds.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They need a weight. A boa-type snake that length should weigh about 300 pounds, a very thick-bodied pit viper like a Gaboon Viper might weigh 600-800 pounds if enlarged to that size.
> 
> Add to that the fact that _*it's made out of stone*_ and I think we can set the weight to 1200-1500 pounds.




That seems perfectly sensible to me.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> That seems perfectly sensible to me.




  Updating the *Working Draft*.

That looks like it for the stats. Onwards to the flavour text!


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

_This large serpent appears to be covered in granite._

Stone snakes get their name from the hard outer body covering that resembles granite. 

A stone snake scavenges mineral matter from subterranean areas with dense crystalline formations. However, it prefers to eat live prey it has petrified with its venom.  Like many snakes, it drags prey off to its lair and then slowly swallows it whole, digesting the meal over the course of several days.   

A stone snake is unable to digest certain types of gems, ranging in value from zircon and garnet to tanzanite and even diamonds.  Such gemstones can often be found among the refuse in a stone snake's lair.

A female stone snake lays 1-6 eggs in the early fall, and then watches over them while the male scavenges for food. The eggs share the coloration of their paretns, and are about 1-1/2 feet long. When the young hatch, they are white in color, slowly developing camouflaging hues over the first six months, at which point they are driven from the nest to survive on their own. 

A typical stone snake is 20 to 25 feet long and weighs 1200 to 1500 pounds.  Its coloration ranges from eggshell to rosy pink, with striations of mauve to black.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> _This large serpent appears to be covered in granite.
> 
> _Stone snakes get their name from the hard outer body covering that resembles granite.
> 
> ...




The original description indicates its body is segmented: "its body is made up of segments of a stony mineral that resembles granite". I'd like that in the description.

The rest of it's good, although we might be able to trim the wording a bit.

I'm kind of curious how the females know its autumn when they live deep underground, but I think we can leave that in.

Hmm, if it gets its name due to its skin resembling granite, wouldn't it be a "Granite Snake"? I'd change that.

How's this...

_A large serpent, the thick hide of its segmented body looks like granite.

_Stone snakes get their name because their bodies are made up of a stony mineral, and because their bite can turn living creatures into stone.

A stone snake eats mineral matter, mostly by scavenging from crystalline formations underground. However, it prefers to eat prey it  has petrified with its venom. The snake drags prey off to  its lair and then slowly swallows it whole, digesting the meal over the  course of several days. If a petrified victim is too big to swallow, the stone snake smashes it to pieces with blows from its snout. A stone snake is unable to digest certain types of gems, such  gemstones can often be found among the refuse in a stone snake's lair.

Stone snakes are encountered individually or in mated pairs. Female stone snakes lay 1-6 eggs in early fall, and then guard their nest while the male provides food. The eggs share the parents'  coloration and are about 1½ feet long. Newly hatched young are alabaster white; they slowly develop camouflaging  hues over their first six months, then are driven from the  nest to survive on their own.

A typical stone snake is 20 to 25 feet long and weighs 1200 to 1500  pounds. Coloration matches most kinds of granite, ranging from eggshell to rosy pink, with  striations of mauve to black.

COMBAT

A stone snake usually hides and waits for potential prey to approach it, then attacks with a lightning-quick jab of its blunt, stony  snout or a bite with its petrifying fangs. It adds 1½ times its Strength bonus to the damage of this slam  attack.


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2011)

Looks good.   Toss it in your working draft, and it should be just about ready for Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.   Toss it in your working draft, and it should be just about ready for Homebrews.




Will do!

   Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.  Ready to move on?


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2011)

Looks good to me!


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.  Ready to move on?




Yup.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

*Varkha*
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean (Underdark) 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Tribal 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Average (8-10) 
Treasure: J,M (D) 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 5-50 (75-150) 
Armor Class: 6 
Movement: 12, Sw 9 
Hit Dice: 1 
THAC0: 19 
No. of Attacks: 2 (or 1 weapon) 
Damage/Attack: 1d6/1d6 or by weapon 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (4-5’ tall) 
Morale: Average (8-10) 
XP Value: 35 

Varkhas are a race of short, brutale aquatic lizard men that hunt in the caverns and waters of the Underdark. These creatures are smaller than their surface-dwelling cousins (standing only four to five feet tall) but possess many similar characteristics. Varkha scale color ranges from dark gray to deep green, and their average tail length is two to two three.

Unlike lizard men, the varkha have large, photosensitive eyes, set toward the sides of their head, much like those of a frog. In addition, they have a layer of webbing underneath their arms that connects with their torsos. When fully extended, this webbing facilitates their movement in the underground lakes and rivers that as their primary hunting grounds. They keep their sparse belongings in leather harnesses.

Varkhas have their own language, similar to that of surface lizard men, but more gurgling.

Combat: Like many subterranean creatures, varkhas fight at -1 in illumination as bright as sunlight. Though not particularly powerful, they have adapted their hunting strategies to make maximum use of their numbers. Hunting varkhaa often attempt to herd prey into a watery cavern. Once there, they use their superior numbers and swimming skills to kill their victims.

In combat, varkhas use their vicious claws to inflict 1d6 points of damage. In addition, some varkhas fashion crude weapons from bones and sharpened rocks. These are usually primitive spears or other missile weapons.

For every 15 varkhas encountered, there is also one sllith (hunt leader) with 2 Hit Dice, as well as a 35% chance for a shaman with 2 HD and the abilities of a 2nd-level priest. If 40 varkhas are encountered, there will be two slliths, a 2 Hit Die shaman, and a 3 Hit Die gsssrat (master of the hunt). Hunzing parties of 50 varkhas are always led by a 4 Hit Die gaakth (sub-chief) and a 3rd-level shaman.

Habitat/Society: The varkhas have a close-knit tribal society. Tribal lairs are found deep in the moist caverns of the Underdark, and usually are home to 75-150 varkhas. Responsibility for the varkha tribe falls squarely on the tssri (chief), a 5 Hit Die creature with high intelligence.

In tribal lairs, 25% of all varkhas are female. These females usually reside in breeding caverns adjacent to the hunters’ caverns. Though often brooding over eggs, varkha females share the responsibilities of the hunt with their male counterparts; eggless females often accompany a hunting party. Brooding varkhas defend the breeding caverns from invaders and other predators with incredible ferocity, adding +1 to their attack and damage rolls until they neutralize the danger.

Varkha lairs of 70 or more also keep 1-3 subterranean lizards as guardians. These large creatures are controlled by the chief and sub-chiefs of the lair. They often position the giant lizards outside the breeding caves (if space permits) in times of war.

Giant Subterranean Lizard: AC 5; MV 12; HD 6; THAC0 15; #AT 1; Dmg 2d6; SA Seize (attack roll 20 inflicts 2× damage, plus 2d6/round thereafter); AL N; Int Non-; SZ L; ML Ave (8-10); XP 650. Some tribes have albino lizards, which attack at a -1 penalty in sunlight brightness. Some tribes have lizards with tongues that shoot to 20 feet; man-sized or smaller prey are drawn into the mouth and bitten next round unless a bend bars roll is made. A tribe usually has lizards of the same type.

Ecology: Varkhas have many natural enemies – they are prey as well as predator in the depths of the Underdark. Troglodytes prey on them whenever they get the chance, unless deterred by greater numbers. Varkhas have a deep (and mutual) hatred for gibberlings, attacking them to the exclusion of all else when the opportunity presents itself. Drow despise the crude varkhas but occasionally use them as slaves in their large cities.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four version.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Varkha*




We do seem to be on a Lizard Kin roll at the moment. 

So, it's significantly smaller than a regular Lizardfolk (4-5' versus 7') but is still within Medium.

Lower AC suggests NA +4.

Doesn't have a bite attack but its claws are a lot nastier.

Light Sensitivity.

The "swimming membrane" suggests an actual Swim speed rather than the SRD Lizardfolk's +4 racial bonus.

I suppose you're going to want to make it a 1st level warrior rather than a 1 HD Humanoid.

I think we have enough for a working draft, since they're pretty straightforward...


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

*Varkha Working Draft*

*Lizardfolk, Varkha
**Varkha, 1st level Warrior*
Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/+2
*Attack:* Claw +3 melee (1d6+1) or spear +2 melee (1d8+1) or spear +1 ranged (1d8+1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +3 melee (1d6+1) or spear +2 melee (1d8+1) or spear +1 ranged (1d8+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., hold breath, light sensitivity
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +4, Clim +3, Jump +8, Swim +9
*Feats:* Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Subterranean
*Organization:* Gang (5-15), hunting band (15-30 plus 1 warrior of 2nd-4th level and 1 adept of 2nd-4th level), or war band (30-50 plus 2-3 warriors of 2nd-4th level and 2-3 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), tribe (75-150 plus 50% noncombatants and 5-10 warriors of 2nd-4th and 5-10 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 shaman of 3rd-6th level and 1 chief of 5th-9th level and 1-3 giant subterranean lizards)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually lawful evil
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +1

_This short, reptilian humanoid has large, froglike eyes on the sides   of its head. A span of webbing connects the creature's arms to its  torso__. It wears a leather harness holding a sparse collection of  crude items._

Varkhas are subterranean relatives of lizardfolk.  These brutal, aquatic hunters prowl underground lakes and rivers for prey.

Varkhas have a close-knit tribal society, led by a chief called a _tssri_. Most hunting parties are led by a _sllith_ (hunt leader), while larger groups follow a _gsssrat _(master of the hunt).  The largest hunting parties or war bands, which can number 50  varkhas or more, are led by a _gaakth_ (sub-chief) and always include a  shaman.

Varkhas females make up about one-fourth of a tribe.  When not brooding   over eggs, females often join a hunting party.  Larger  varkha tribes  keep subterranean lizards as guardians. 

Varkhas have many natural enemies, including troglodytes and drow.   Varkhas have a deep (and mutual) hatred for gibberlings and seize every  opportunity to attack them.

A varkha lizardfolk is usually 4 to 5 feet tall with dark gray or deep   green scales. Its tail is used for balance and is 2 to 3 feet long. A   varkha can weigh from 60 to 125 pounds.

Varkhas speak Draconic with a heavy gurgling accent.

*COMBAT*

Varkhas mostly fight with their vicious claws. Some varkhas fashion  crude weapons from bones and sharpened rocks, usually missile weapons  they hurl at opponents before charging in to melee with their claws.

Varkha hunting parties and war bands fight in well-coordinated groups  that make maximum use of their numbers to overwhelm their opponents,  concentrating their efforts on their most dangerous foes. Varkhas often  try to herd opponents into water, where their swimming ability helps  them outmaneuver terrestrial creatures.

*Hold Breath:* A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Light Sensitivity (Ex):* Varkha are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. 

*Skills:* Because of their tails, varkha lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Balance checks. A varkha has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Varkha As Characters*
Varkha characters possess the following racial traits.

● +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence.
● Medium size.
● A varkha's base land speed is 30 feet and its base swim speed is 20 feet.
● +4 natural armor bonus.
● Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6).
● Special Qualities (see above): Darkvision 60 ft., hold breath, light sensitivity.
● Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Giant, Goblin, Orc and Undercommon.
● Favored Class: Fighter.
● Level adjustment +1.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

That looks spot-on so far.

The suggested tactics seem reasonable.


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> That looks spot-on so far.
> 
> The suggested tactics seem reasonable.




I'll add the tactics.

Hold on, its spear should be +1 ranged, not +0.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2011)

Looks good!  Would Climb work for the other skills?


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good!  Would Climb work for the other skills?




I'd rather put most of it in Jump, since Warriors share that skill with the SRD Lizardfolk.

Say, 3 in Jump, 2 in Climb?


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## Shade (Aug 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Say, 3 in Jump, 2 in Climb?




<nods affirmative>


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> <nods affirmative>




Updates *Working Draft*.

Anything else apart from the flavour?

Maybe tweak the languages.

Since they're subterranean, they could have Undercommon and Terran instead of (or in addition to) Common and Aquan.

The subterranean Troglodytes have Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Giant, Goblin, Orc, so we could also swap Gnoll for Giant?


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Maybe tweak the languages.
> 
> Since they're subterranean, they could have Undercommon and Terran instead of (or in addition to) Common and Aquan.
> 
> The subterranean Troglodytes have Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Giant, Goblin, Orc, so we could also swap Gnoll for Giant?




Yes to Undercommon, No to Terran.  Maybe drop Common from the Auto list for it.   Swapping Gnoll for Giant also works.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

That will all work.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yes to Undercommon, No to Terran.  Maybe drop Common from the Auto list for it.   Swapping Gnoll for Giant also works.




So Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Giant, Goblin, Orc and Undercommon?

Works for me.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2011)

Yep.

Standard treasure appeals.

Anything else beside flavor?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Just flavor, I think.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.
> 
> Standard treasure appeals.
> 
> Anything else beside flavor?




Don't think so.

 Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

So, any ideas for the flavour?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2011)

These appear to be stocky lizardfolk with bulging eyes.  ??

Then some background about a brutally militaristic society?

Are the subterranean lizards close enough to the Forge of Fury ones, or should we conver those too?


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> These appear to be stocky lizardfolk with bulging eyes.  ??
> 
> Then some background about a brutally militaristic society?




Close-knit tribal society. Hate gibberlings. Enslaved by drow. Eaten by troglodytes.

Found in underwater lakes and rivers. 

Hmm, should we give these "aquatic" lizardfolk the Amphibious quality?



freyar said:


> Are the subterranean lizards close enough to the Forge of Fury ones, or should we conver those too?




If I could remember what the Forge of Fury ones were like I might be able to tell you.


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## freyar (Aug 24, 2011)

Ok, you seem to have a better feel for these.

I thought amphibious was only for critters with the aquatic subtype.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, you seem to have a better feel for these.
> 
> I thought amphibious was only for critters with the aquatic subtype.




There's no rule to that effect that I'm aware off.

The SRD Toad has the Amphibious SQ, and it isn't Aquatic.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> There's no rule to that effect that I'm aware off.
> 
> The SRD Toad has the Amphibious SQ, and it isn't Aquatic.




Yeah, it sure doesn't seem definitive.  The Monster Types and Abilities section just has this...

Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.

Like Cleon pointed out, the toad has the SQ, but no description of it.  The rest of the SRD monsters that have it, though, are all Aquatic and have this in the combat section...

Amphibious (Ex):  Although <monster name> are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land. 

Honestly, I see no issue with just giving them the Aquatic subtype to avoid confusion.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

These don't feel too aquatic to me, exactly.  I think I'd leave them as they are.  Or else just increase the duration of hold breath.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> These don't feel too aquatic to me, exactly.  I think I'd leave them as they are.  Or else just increase the duration of hold breath.




Aquatic or not aquatic?  Truly, I'm not bothered either way.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2011)

I vote for not aquatic, but let's see what Cleon thinks.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I vote for not aquatic, but let's see what Cleon thinks.




Un-aquatically amphibious, the same as the SRD Toad.


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

Leave off the description of the SQ, too?


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Leave off the description of the SQ, too?




It doesn't bother me one way or t'other.

It's a standard ability, so we can leave it out if you want, but it's not like it costs much to include it.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2011)

Leave it off.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Leave it off.




Fine by me.

Would you care to present a first draft for the description & background text?


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Fine by me.
> 
> Would you care to present a first draft for the description & background text?




Hopefully later today.


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## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hopefully later today.




I look forward to it.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2011)

_This short, reptilian humanoid has large, froglike eyes on the sides of its head.  A layer of webbing from underneath its arms connects with its torso. It wears a leather harness holding a sparse collection of crude items._

Varkhas are subterranean relatives of lizardfolk.  These brutal, aquatic hunters prowl underwater caverns for prey. 

Varkhas have a close-knit tribal society, led by a chief called a tssri.  Hunting parites are led by a sllith (hunt leader), while larger bands follow a gsssrat (master of the hunt).  The largest hunting parties (50 or more varkhas) are led by a gaakth (sub-chief) and always include a shaman.

Varkhas females make up about one-fourth of a tribe.  When not brooding over eggs, varkha females often accompany a hunting party.  Larger varkha tribes keep subterranean lizards as guardians. 

Varkhas have many natural enemies, including troglodytes and drow. Varkhas have a deep (and mutual) hatred for gibberlings, attacking them to the exclusion of all else when the opportunity presents itself. 

Varkhas are 4 to 5 feet tall, with tails of 2 to 3 feet in lenght, and weigh x pounds. Scale coloration ranges from dark gray to deep green.

Varkhas speak Draconic with a heavy gurgling accent.

COMBAT

Hunting varkhaa often attempt to herd prey into a watery cavern, then overwhelm with superior numbers.  While most varkhas fight only with their vicious claws, some fashion crude weapons from bones and sharpened rocks.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> _This short, reptilian humanoid has large, froglike eyes on the sides of its head.  A layer of webbing from underneath its arms connects with its torso. It wears a leather harness holding a sparse collection of crude items._




Not that fond of "_A layer of webbing from underneath its arms connects with its torso_". I know it's in the original, but think it reads badly.

"A span of webbing connects the creature's arms to its torso?"



Shade said:


> Varkhas are subterranean relatives of lizardfolk.  These brutal, aquatic hunters prowl underwater caverns for prey.




"Underwater caverns" suggests the caves are entirely filled with water. The original text describes them living in underground lakes and rivers, which presumably include air-filled spaces.



Shade said:


> Varkhas have a close-knit tribal society, led by a chief called a tssri.  Hunting parites are led by a sllith (hunt leader), while larger bands follow a gsssrat (master of the hunt).  The largest hunting parties (50 or more varkhas) are led by a gaakth (sub-chief) and always include a shaman.




I'd use that as-is once the typo's fixed, but it suggests some tweaks to the organisation. Something like this would be a fairly literal translation, but is too complicated for my tastes:

*Organization:* Gang (5-15), hunting party (15-30 plus 1 _sllith _hunt leader 2st-4th level), or hunting band (30-50 plus  2-3 warriors of 2nd-4th level and 2-3 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 _gsssrat _hunt master of 3rd-6th level), or war band (50-100 plus 3-6  warriors of 2nd-4th and 1-2 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 shaman of  3rd-6th level and 1 _gaakth _sub-chief of 4th-7th level), tribe (75-150 plus 50% noncombatants and 5-10  warriors of 2nd-4th and 5-10 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 shaman of  3rd-6th level and 1 _tssri_ chief of 5th-9th level and 1-3 giant subterranean  lizards)

I like the following better:

*Organization:* Gang (5-15), hunting party (15-30 plus 1-3 warriors of  2nd-4th level  (_sllith_ or _gsssrat_) and 1 adept of 2nd-4th level), or war band (30-50 plus 3-6 warriors of 2nd-4th level and 2-3 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 sub-chief of 4th-7th level (_gaakth_) and 1 shaman of  3rd-6th level), tribe (75-150 plus 50% noncombatants and 5-10  warriors of 2nd-4th and 5-10 adepts of 2nd-4th level and 1 shaman of  3rd-6th level and 1 chief of 5th-9th level (_tssri_) and 1-3 giant subterranean  lizards)



Shade said:


> Varkhas are 4 to 5 feet tall, with tails of 2 to 3 feet in lenght, and weigh x pounds. Scale coloration ranges from dark gray to deep green.
> 
> Varkhas speak Draconic with a heavy gurgling accent.
> 
> ...




I like the "gurgling accent" bit.

The description of the weapons might work better in background.

We've already got the following in the Working Draft, which I like better:

A varkha lizardfolk is usually 4 to 5 feet tall with dark gray or deep  green scales. Its tail is used for balance and is 2 to 3 feet long. A  varkha can weigh from 60 to 125 pounds.

Varkhas make maximum use of their numbers in combat, making   well-coordinated attacks that concentrate on eliminating selected   opponents as quickly as possible. They often try to lure or drive  opponents into water, where their swimming ability helps them to   outmaneuver and overwhelm their enemies.  A fighting varkha usually  throws a spear (or several) and then charges in to attack with its  claws.

So, putting that together...
_This short, reptilian humanoid has large, froglike eyes on the sides  of its head. A span of webbing connects the creature's arms to its torso__. It wears a leather harness holding a sparse collection of  crude items._

Varkhas are subterranean relatives of lizardfolk.  These brutal, aquatic hunters prowl underground lakes and rivers for prey.

Varkhas have a close-knit tribal society, led by a chief called a _tssri_. Most hunting parties are led by a _sllith_ (hunt leader), while larger groups follow a _gsssrat _(master of the hunt).  The largest hunting parties or war bands, which can number 50  varkhas or more, are led by a _gaakth_ (sub-chief) and always include a  shaman.

Varkhas females make up about one-fourth of a tribe.  When not brooding  over eggs, females often join a hunting party.  Larger  varkha tribes keep subterranean lizards as guardians. 

Varkhas have many natural enemies, including troglodytes and drow.  Varkhas have a deep (and mutual) hatred for gibberlings and seize every opportunity to attack them.

A varkha lizardfolk is usually 4 to 5 feet tall with dark gray or deep  green scales. Its tail is used for balance and is 2 to 3 feet long. A  varkha can weigh from 60 to 125 pounds.

Varkhas speak Draconic with a heavy gurgling accent.

COMBAT
 Varkhas mostly fight with their vicious claws. Some varkhas fashion crude weapons from bones and sharpened rocks, usually missile weapons they hurl at opponents before charging in to melee with their claws.

Varkha hunting parties and war bands fight in well-coordinated groups that make maximum use of their numbers to overwhelm their opponents, concentrating their efforts on their most dangerous foes. Varkhas often try to herd opponents into water, where their swimming ability helps them outmaneuver terrestrial creatures.​What do you think?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2011)

Seems fine.


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## Cleon (Sep 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems fine.




So are we done here, assuming Shade goes along with the changes to Organisation and flavour text?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2011)

Looks good.

Added to Homebrews.

We should pick domains for the clerics as we've done for the other lizardfolk.

Wait a minute...the ability scores need to be adjusted for the standard array, since this is a 1st-level warrior, not a default humanoid like the 2-HD lizardfolk.


How's this?
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 8

The varkha warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 8.

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2011)

Oops, we didn't do that already?  Hmm.  In that case, I can agree with those ability assignments.  Did you need to rejigger any skills also?


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## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oops, we didn't do that already?  Hmm.  In that case, I can agree with those ability assignments.  Did you need to rejigger any skills also?




I'd rather give them lower (or no) racial bonuses and keep their physical abilities as they are, partially to save us having to rejig the stats and partially because they're smaller than regular lizardfolk (and live in the nutrient-poor underworld), so might not be as impressive physically.

e.g. if we give them a +2 racial bonus to Dex, plus the following arrangement:

Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8

The varkha warrior presented here had the following ability scores  before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 9 (+2), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.

Then we don't need to make any changes to the other stats.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Looking over the original again, that seems reasonable.  Nothing seems to suggest they are stronger or hardier than average, and their Int is average.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looking over the original again, that seems reasonable.  Nothing seems to suggest they are stronger or hardier than average, and their Int is average.




Yes, they've got a Dex bonus and natural armour, so they're still not a +0 LA creature.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2011)

Ok fair enough.  All done then?


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok fair enough.  All done then?




Well I was going to give it a once-over to check for errors, but I suspect so.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

Updated.

Now batting...

*Suwyze*
Climate/Terrain: Any subterranean 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Omnivore 
Intelligence: Exceptional (15-16) 
Treasure: I 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1 
Armor Class: 4 
Movement: 12, Cl 12 
Hit Dice: 4+4 
THAC0: 15 
No. of Attacks: 8 
Damage/Attack: 1d6 
Special Attacks: Spells, tendrils 
Special Defenses: Never surprised 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: H (20’ diameter) 
Morale: Steady (11-12) 
XP Value: 975 

The suwyze seems to be composed entirely of feathery antennae, wispy tendrils, and long feelers – a huge mass of sensory organs. Though it takes up a large volume, most of the creature is composed of its appendages, and only its central body has much mass. The suwyze is a watching sort of beast, favorite among mages and others who require security without a great bother. Suwyze can learn a burbling, garbled version of Common, though few masters teach it to them. They move in a rippling, flowing motion, and they can cling to most surfaces well enough to climb walls, but not cling to ceilings.

Combat: The suwyze can see danger coming from a distance, as its feelers and tendrils allow it to sense light, heat. faint odors, winds, magical auras, strong good or evil creatures, and even subtle pressure changes that might indicate opening and closing doors. Suwyze sleep fitfully, and some of their feelers are active even then. When something triggers their sense of danger, they become instantly alert, so a suwyze can never be surprised. The typical response is to tell the master and hide.

The suwyze can use each of the following spell-like abilities three times per day: clairaudience, clairvoyance, detect good, detect evil, detect magic, invisibility, shout, and wizard eye. It uses these to track even difficult opponents throughout an area. Its powers of perception also grant the suwyze a +2 bonus to saving throws against all illusion-based magic.

If forced into melee, a suwyze attacks with its feeding tendrils, each a 10-foot-long whiplike appendage covered with coarse, sandpapery skin. These abrasive whips cause 1d6 points of damage when each strikes. A more important ability is indulging magical double vision in their opponents as a play for sympathy: Unless the victim rolls a successful save vs. spell, the attacker begins seeing the combat from the suwyze’s point of view, in a somewhat doctored form. This disoriente lion imposes a -3 penalty upon all attack rolls. Hearing the piteous cries of the suwyze and seeing the magically exaggerated effects of each blow are so eerie that opponents suffer a -1 penalty to damage rolls as well. If this ability fails, a suwyze magically shouts for help, blasting opponents in the process.

A suwyze can use rings and bracers on its tendrils, and a favored beast may be granted these items by a gracious master.

Habitat/Society: The suwyze is a curious beast, one probably too clever for its own good. It views its guard duties as a diversion, something that it is good at but that it didn’t take entirely seriously. Suwyze consider themselves philosophers, endlessly ruminating on the nature of perception or simply taking it all in. They are cowards as well, quick to warn of danger and prone to false alarms rather than ignoring a potential danger. They are spooked by odd noises, unfamiliar smells, strangers, or other new things in their environment.

The suwyze favors certain scents, colors, and textures, and over time its tastes harden. Older suwyze may object to being housed anywhere except in an area specifically designed to meet their needs. These preferences make them difficult to transfer from one area to another; they are good watchers, but they become entrenched in their habits.

Some suwyze are said to have distant contact with independent colonies established by progressive, independent suwyze who are free of any duties to masters or owaers. Given how vulnerable these creatures can be, these “contacts” are probably merely the fancies of the suwyze’s hyperactive senses.

Ecology: The suwyze almost always lives in a symbiotic relationship with other underground creatures. It may serve as a watchdog for a subterranean dragon, evil races, or others – the suwyze doesn’t care as long as it is fed well and often. Because of its extensive sensory powers, the suwyze must eat much more than other creatures of its size. Also, it requires more meat than most underground creatures.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One version.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2011)

Interesting.  Aberrations?

Airy body and Large/Huge or Small/Tiny with 10 ft reach?


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2011)

Definitely aberration, and I'm leaning toward airy.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Hold on a sec, after a checkover I find we're missing something:

"A varkha cleric has access to two of the following domains: x."

Darkness, Evil, Scalykind, Strength, Water?


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Interesting.  Aberrations?




Yes, I'd go for Aberration. It has the whiff of an artificial lifeform created as a living security system,



freyar said:


> Airy body and Large/Huge or Small/Tiny with 10 ft reach?




I'd go for Small with a 10 ft. reach.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on a sec, after a checkover I find we're missing something:
> 
> "A varkha cleric has access to two of the following domains: x."
> 
> Darkness, Evil, Scalykind, Strength, Water?




Looks good.  Any objections?



Cleon said:


> I'd go for Small with a 10 ft. reach.




2 votes for big n' airy, 1 for little n' stretchy.  Anyone else wanna weigh in?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

No objection on the varkha domains.

I didn't actually vote on the suwyze size.   Reading through the original monster yet again, the text makes me think small and stretchy.   I could even go Tiny and stretchy.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> No objection on the varkha domains.
> 
> I didn't actually vote on the suwyze size.   Reading through the original monster yet again, the text makes me think small and stretchy.   I could even go Tiny and stretchy.




So it's two for little n' stretchy, one for big.

I'd be fine keeping the Airy trait.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

Updated the varkha.

It looks like little wins.  Small or Tiny, Cleon?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2011)

I think I'd go for Small.  But there's no point to airy if it's Small with 10 ft reach.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated the varkha.
> 
> It looks like little wins.  Small or Tiny, Cleon?




Ahem...



Cleon said:


> Yes, I'd go for Aberration. It has the whiff of an artificial lifeform created as a living security system,
> 
> I'd go for Small with a 10 ft. reach.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2011)

All set then...


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> All set then...




Just a bit of brainstorming...

What senses are we giving them - blindsight? How much Darkvision? 

Presumably they'll have hefty racial bonuses to Listen and Spot (and maybe Search), since that's their raison d'etre.

All Around Vision?

Spider Climbing?

Low Str. High Int, Dex and Wis. Mediocre Cha?

Not sure about the Con. The +4 in 4+4 HD implies a decent Con, but the feathery and fragile description suggests a less robust Constitution. Maybe their Aberrant anatomy has so much redundancy they are very resistant to damage?


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2011)

I'll agree with just about all of that.

Int 15, Wis 22 or so, Dex 19-20?  Maybe Str around 5 or 6?  Cha needs to be ok, given their SLAs and Su abilities.  Possibly 15-16 like Int. As far as Con goes, I'm inclined to go with the 15-16 range or maybe even higher.  As you say, they're aberrations.

Probably a decent range to the darkvision.


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'll agree with just about all of that.
> 
> Int 15, Wis 22 or so, Dex 19-20?  Maybe Str around 5 or 6?  Cha needs to be ok, given their SLAs and Su abilities.  Possibly 15-16 like Int. As far as Con goes, I'm inclined to go with the 15-16 range or maybe even higher.  As you say, they're aberrations.




Str 6, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 16?



freyar said:


> Probably a decent range to the darkvision.




I'd go for 120 ft., like a Drow elf.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2011)

That all looks reasonable to me.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> That all looks reasonable to me.




Me too.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> That all looks reasonable to me.




What about the other senses, like Blindsight?


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

There's not exactly a suggestion of blindsight, but it would certainly make sense given the flavor.  Sure, I say we add it.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> There's not exactly a suggestion of blindsight, but it would certainly make sense given the flavor.  Sure, I say we add it.




30 feet?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2011)

Agreed.  Seems like we're ready for a rough homebrews.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreed.  Seems like we're ready for a rough homebrews.




Clunk!

I think you might have dropped something, I found this hint lying on the floor...


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Clunk!
> 
> I think you might have dropped something, I found this hint lying on the floor...




Ouch!  #$%@!   Wait, what's this?

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2011)

It just helps me to see things. 

Now that it's there, let's address this:


> Combat: The suwyze can see danger coming from a distance, as its feelers and tendrils allow it to sense light, heat. faint odors, winds, magical auras, strong good or evil creatures, and even subtle pressure changes that might indicate opening and closing doors. Suwyze sleep fitfully, and some of their feelers are active even then. When something triggers their sense of danger, they become instantly alert, so a suwyze can never be surprised. The typical response is to tell the master and hide.
> 
> The suwyze can use each of the following spell-like abilities three times per day: clairaudience, clairvoyance, detect good, detect evil, detect magic, invisibility, shout, and wizard eye. It uses these to track even difficult opponents throughout an area. Its powers of perception also grant the suwyze a +2 bonus to saving throws against all illusion-based magic.




So that's a list of SLAs, but the first paragraph suggests that the detect evil and detect magic could be continuous abilities.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> It just helps me to see things.
> 
> Now that it's there, let's address this:
> 
> ...




I think the "always active on its person" SLAs (like the upper-tier angels) make sense for the bulk of that.


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think the "always active on its person" SLAs (like the upper-tier angels) make sense for the bulk of that.




Yes, the durations would be too short to be much use for a "watchdog" monster if it only has them 3/day.

However, I prefer at-will SLAs over "always active" for them.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, the durations would be too short to be much use for a "watchdog" monster if it only has them 3/day.
> 
> However, I prefer at-will SLAs over "always active" for them.




But...but...

The suwyze can see danger coming from a distance, as its feelers and tendrils allow it to sense light, heat. faint odors, winds, *magical auras, strong good or evil creatures*, and even subtle pressure changes that might indicate opening and closing doors. *Suwyze sleep fitfully, and some of their feelers are active even then*. When something triggers their sense of danger, they become instantly alert, so a suwyze can never be surprised. The typical response is to tell the master and hide.

That suggests, at the very least, _detect magic, detect evil, and detect good _are always active.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> But...but...
> 
> The suwyze can see danger coming from a distance, as its feelers and tendrils allow it to sense light, heat. faint odors, winds, *magical auras, strong good or evil creatures*, and even subtle pressure changes that might indicate opening and closing doors. *Suwyze sleep fitfully, and some of their feelers are active even then*. When something triggers their sense of danger, they become instantly alert, so a suwyze can never be surprised. The typical response is to tell the master and hide.
> 
> That suggests, at the very least, _detect magic, detect evil, and detect good _are always active.




Yes, the problem is it's also got this:

The suwyze can use each of the following *spell-like abilities three  times per day*: clairaudience, clairvoyance, *detect good*, *detect evil*,  *detect magic*, invisibility, shout, and wizard eye. It uses these to  track even difficult opponents throughout an area. Its powers of  perception also grant the suwyze a +2 bonus to saving throws against all  illusion-based magic.                      

The two are somewhat contradictory - if it has feelers constantly detecting magical and alignment auras, why does it have those 3/day SLAs? Making them at-will's seemed a compromise.

Alternatively, how about we give them "always on" detect magic/good/evil and upgrade the SLAs so it has 3/day _arcane sight_, _detect scrying_ and _see invisibility_?

Hmm, I like that solution. Its "regular" magic/alignment sense has a 60 ft. range, but its SLAs sense magic and invisible creatures to a 120 ft range (assuming it's using its 120-foot darkvision for the _see invisibility_). The stronger divinations, such as _true seeing_ or _greater arcane sight_ are probably too much.


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2011)

Yes, I like the last solution there.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, I like the last solution there.




Good! Let's write up that, then.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2011)

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—arcane eye, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect scrying, invisibility, see invisibility, shout (DC X). Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the suwyze's person, as the spells (caster level xth); detect evil, detect good, and detect magic. They can be dispelled, but the suwyze can reactivate them as a free action.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—arcane eye, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect scrying, invisibility, see invisibility, shout (DC X). Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> 
> The following abilities are always active on the suwyze's person, as the spells (caster level xth); detect evil, detect good, and detect magic. They can be dispelled, but the suwyze can reactivate them as a free action.




That's fine by me.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2011)

Caster level equals HD, or better?   I've noticed quite a few "sensory" SLAs on critters with caster levels much higher than their HD.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Caster level equals HD, or better?   I've noticed quite a few "sensory" SLAs on critters with caster levels much higher than their HD.




Good idea. A nice, round, caster level 10?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

Go for CL 10 on the always active ones, but maybe stick closer to HD for the others.  CL 10 is probably too high for shout in particular.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Go for CL 10 on the always active ones, but maybe stick closer to HD for the others.  CL 10 is probably too high for shout in particular.




Apart from its damage to crystalline creatures, _shout_ doesn't have any significant CL-dependent variables so I'm OK with making that CL 10.

Alternatively, we could make all the SLAs caster level 8, which is the minimum CL for a sorcerer to use _shout_ and is also twice the starting HD of the suwyze.

Hmm, I like that solution.


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Apart from its damage to crystalline creatures, _shout_ doesn't have any significant CL-dependent variables so I'm OK with making that CL 10.
> 
> Alternatively, we could make all the SLAs caster level 8, which is the minimum CL for a sorcerer to use _shout_ and is also twice the starting HD of the suwyze.
> 
> Hmm, I like that solution.




Yeah, me too.


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## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, me too.




Good, once we put in CL 8th and some DCs are we done with the SLAs?


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2011)

Yup.

Do we need an ability for this? "A suwyze can use rings and bracers on its tendrils, and a favored beast may be granted these items by a gracious master."  It's not exactly standard.  I know I've seen beholders given this ability, but it may have been in Lords of Madness rather than the MM.

Shall we work on the "seeing double" ability?


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup.
> 
> Do we need an ability for this? "A suwyze can use rings and bracers on its tendrils, and a favored beast may be granted these items by a gracious master."  It's not exactly standard.  I know I've seen beholders given this ability, but it may have been in Lords of Madness rather than the MM.




I lean towards either not bothering or mentioning it in flavour text. It doesn't really need an SQ.



freyar said:


> Shall we work on the "seeing double" ability?




Go ahead, be my guest.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2011)

Flavor text note appeals.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> Flavor text note appeals.
> 
> Updated.




Hmm, I'd expand it a little.

A suwyze can use magic rings and bracers worn on its tendrils, and a favored beast may be granted these items by a gracious master.

Also, its Skills entry could do with some expansion. I'd suggest the following:

*Skills:* Suwyze have a [+4 or +6?] racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot  checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A suwyze uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb checks and can always choose to  take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2011)

The red text in the flavor looks fine.

Give it a +6 on the perception skills, if not even more.  They're supposed to be super-perceptive.  

OK, now we have


> A more important ability is indulging magical double vision in their opponents as a play for sympathy: Unless the victim rolls a successful save vs. spell, the attacker begins seeing the combat from the suwyze’s point of view, in a somewhat doctored form. This disoriente lion imposes a -3 penalty upon all attack rolls. Hearing the piteous cries of the suwyze and seeing the magically exaggerated effects of each blow are so eerie that opponents suffer a -1 penalty to damage rolls as well.



First thing to decide: is this automatic for any opponent within a given range (on failed save), or does the suwyze need to do something?


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> The red text in the flavor looks fine.
> 
> Give it a +6 on the perception skills, if not even more.  They're supposed to be super-perceptive.
> 
> ...




It doesn't make it clear, alas. I'm thinking it disorientates any creature hit by the tendril attack - since it says it's "a more important ability" just after it gives the damage a tentacle hit causes.

If it was a ranged supernatural attack, like a harpy's Song or the _cause blindness_ spell, I'd expect hope they would mention that in the description.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

It strikes me as an aura, but the text is certainly open to interpretation.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2011)

The damage doesn't list the double vision, so I don't think it affects tendril victims.

I'm inclined to go with an aura also.  Maybe it affects only hostile creatures?


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## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> The damage doesn't list the double vision, so I don't think it affects tendril victims.
> 
> I'm inclined to go with an aura also.  Maybe it affects only hostile creatures?




I'm still thinking the "inducing double vision" is supposed to be a property of the tendril attack. It's listed in a paragraph with the melee information about the tendrils, there's that "a more important ability" after the tendril damage.

Furthermore, the stat-block has "Special Attacks: Spells, tendrils".

If the tendrils only did damage, why would they be listed as a Special Attack? If the double-vision was a separate aura attack, shouldn't it be listed as a special attack or special defence?

Oh, and that paragraph also has "Hearing the piteous cries of the suwyze and seeing the magically exaggerated effects of each blow are so eerie that opponents suffer a -1 penalty to damage rolls as well." What is the magical effect caused by a tendril blow if it's not the "double vision"?


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and that paragraph also has "Hearing the piteous cries of the suwyze and seeing the magically exaggerated effects of each blow are so eerie that opponents suffer a -1 penalty to damage rolls as well." What is the magical effect caused by a tendril blow if it's not the "double vision"?




I can definitely see support for the melee attack, but still favor an aura/burst.

How about we compromise, and make it both on a hit and as a howl-style "piteous cries" SA?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I can definitely see support for the melee attack, but still favor an aura/burst.
> 
> How about we compromise, and make it both on a hit and as a howl-style "piteous cries" SA?




Not sure about giving it has two very different delivery vectors for the same special attack (melee attack and area-effect sonic). 

If you want an area-effect version, I'd prefer a pseudo-whirlwind attack approach, i.e. something like "As a standard action, a suwyze can whirl its tendrils around to touch every creature within X feet. Touched creatures must succeed at a DC X Will save or be affected by [sympathetic double vision]."


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2011)

But that doesn't account for the "piteous cries".

Let's get freyar's take.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> But that doesn't account for the "piteous cries".
> 
> Let's get freyar's take.




We are talking about the "inducing double vision" special attack here, aren't we?

The "piteous cries" (or thrashing victims) looks like a separate special attack to me.


----------



## freyar (Nov 3, 2011)

I believe the bit about the piteous cries and exaggerated effects from the blow are that the victim, who is trying to attack the suwyze, perceives the damage done to the suwyze and is disoriented enough to pull back on the attack out of sympathy, leading to the damage penalty.  That bit doesn't seem to have anything to do with the suwyze attacking the victim.

I do see the point about the special attack line listing "tendrils," but this seems like a purely defensive ability.  So I'm not quite sure what the tendrils should have to do with it.  The only justification is if they have to touch someone to establish telepathic contact (like a mindmeld), but that's not how telepathy usually works in D&D.   I don't know, I find the original monster a bit vague about this.  I mean, there are problems either way: if it's an aura, does it affect everyone?  if it requires a hit with a tendril, why make a defensive ability weaker like that (and why should it also allow a save)?

And, either way, is the penalty on attacks and damage only on attacks against the suwyze or against everything?


----------



## freyar (Nov 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We are talking about the "inducing double vision" special attack here, aren't we?
> 
> The "piteous cries" (or thrashing victims) looks like a separate special attack to me.



The piteous cries are what the victim of the double vision sees.  That's clear enough to me.  It's the "delivery method" of the double vision that isn't spelled out.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> The piteous cries are what the victim of the double vision sees.  That's clear enough to me.  It's the "delivery method" of the double vision that isn't spelled out.




Reading the description, I'm still preferring a single tendril-hit-delivered special attack. It phrases it as a single ability, and I see no clear support for it being two abilities.

Occam's Razor dictates we should take the less complex option, e.g:

*Sympathic Entanglement (Su):* Any creature hit by a suwzye's tendril attack must succeed at a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from the suwyze's point of view, in a magically exaggerated form of "double vision". The victim takes a -3 penalty to attack rolls and a -1 penalty to damage until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked unconscious. The entanglement is a mind-affecting glamer. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

If freyar agrees, I'll reluctantly go along.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> If freyar agrees, I'll reluctantly go along.




Guess we'll have to wait for Freyar, then.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2011)

I can't believe that Cleon used the words "Occam's Razor" in a positive sense!  Is that "The World Turned Upside Down" I hear playing?

As for the "delivery method," I still prefer an aura of some type.  I agree that the statblock makes it seem like it's part of the tendril, but that's not how the text reads to me.  I suppose we could roll a die if necessary.


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I can't believe that Cleon used the words "Occam's Razor" in a positive sense!  Is that "The World Turned Upside Down" I hear playing?




As long as Godwin's Law isn't the next step, I'm not worried.  



freyar said:


> As for the "delivery method," I still prefer an aura of some type.  I agree that the statblock makes it seem like it's part of the tendril, but that's not how the text reads to me.  I suppose we could roll a die if necessary.




Well, since you and I both want auras, I'd say that's settled.  I'm willing to include the tendril as a second delivery method, though.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I can't believe that Cleon used the words "Occam's Razor" in a positive sense!  Is that "The World Turned Upside Down" I hear playing?




Why not, all those additional complexities I add to creatures are _entirely necessary_, I assure you. 



freyar said:


> As for the "delivery method," I still prefer an aura of some type.  I agree that the statblock makes it seem like it's part of the tendril, but that's not how the text reads to me.  I suppose we could roll a die if necessary.




Would you care to point out what in the text supports the notion of it being an aura. There's no mention of a range, area of effect or anything similar.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> As long as Godwin's Law isn't the next step, I'm not worried.




So is it alright if I start comparing you to Stalin, then? 



Shade said:


> Well, since you and I both want auras, I'd say that's settled.  I'm willing to include the tendril as a second delivery method, though.




Oh I guess if you want to be wrong, I can't stop you. 

Just don't expect me to write up the special attack!


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So is it alright if I start comparing you to Stalin, then?




I'm more of a shadowy organization behind the despots.



Cleon said:


> Oh I guess if you want to be wrong, I can't stop you.




If it is wrong, why does it feel sooooo right?



Cleon said:


> Just don't expect me to write up the special attack!




But you already did!   BWAHAHAHA!

Sympathic Entanglement (Su): Any creature within x feet of a suwyze or struck by a suwyze's tendril attack must succeed on a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from the suwyze's point of view.  This magically exaggerated form of "double vision" imposes a -3 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on damage rolls until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked unconscious. This is a mind-affecting glamer effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Should we add "Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same suwyze's sympathic entanglement for 24 hours."?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm more of a shadowy organization behind the despots.




It figures a Shadowy Individual such as yourself would be an _eminence gris_.

If it is wrong, why does it feel sooooo right?



Shade said:


> *Sympathic Entanglement (Su):* Any creature within x feet of a suwyze or struck by a suwyze's tendril attack must succeed on a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from the suwyze's point of view.  This magically exaggerated form of "double vision" imposes a -3 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on damage rolls until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked unconscious. This is a mind-affecting glamer effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Should we add "Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same suwyze's sympathic entanglement for 24 hours."?




If you add the successful save bit it would render the tendril attack version unless the aura has a radius smaller than the tendril's Reach, since an attacker would always be exposed to the aura first, so any subsequent tendril hits would exceed the 24 hour limit.

I suppose you could make the aura "save and be immune for 24 hours" and the tendrils "must save with every hit".

Either way, I prefer my own non socialist secret government overlord approved version.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I suppose you could make the aura "save and be immune for 24 hours" and the tendrils "must save with every hit".




This appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> This appeals.




Go ahead and modify it, then.


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2011)

How's this?

*Sympathic Entanglement (Su):* Any creature within x feet of a suwyze must succeed on a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from the suwyze's point of view. This magically exaggerated form of "double vision" imposes a -3 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on damage rolls until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked unconscious. This is a mind-affecting glamer effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.  Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same suwyze's sympathic entanglement aura for 24 hours.

Any creature struck by a suwyze's tendril attack must make a new saving throw, regardless of the results of the save against the aura or previous tendril hits.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> *Sympathic Entanglement (Su):* Any creature within x feet of a suwyze must succeed on a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from the suwyze's point of view. This magically exaggerated form of "double vision" imposes a -3 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on damage rolls until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked unconscious. This is a mind-affecting glamer effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.  Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same suwyze's sympathic entanglement aura for 24 hours.
> 
> Any creature struck by a suwyze's tendril attack must make a new saving throw, regardless of the results of the save against the aura or previous tendril hits.




I'd tweak it as follows, but apart from that I like it.

*Sympathic Entanglement (Su):* Any creature within x feet of a  suwyze must succeed on a DC X Will save or begin seeing the combat from  the suwyze's point of view. This magically exaggerated form of "double  vision" imposes a -3 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on damage  rolls*, which lasts* until the suwyze stops fighting or the victim is killed or knocked  unconscious.  Whether or not the save is successful, an affected  creature is immune to the same suwyze's sympathic entanglement aura for  24 hours. *This is a mind-affecting glamer effect. The save DC is  Charisma-based.*

Any creature struck by a suwyze's tendril attack must make a new saving  throw, regardless of the results of the save against the aura or  previous tendril hits.

30 ft. for the range?


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2011)

Seems reasonable.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Seems reasonable.  Updated.




What's left?


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2011)

> The suwyze is a curious beast, one probably too clever for its own good. It views its guard duties as a diversion, something that it is good at but that it didn’t take entirely seriously. Suwyze consider themselves philosophers, endlessly ruminating on the nature of perception or simply taking it all in. They are cowards as well, quick to warn of danger and prone to false alarms rather than ignoring a potential danger. They are spooked by odd noises, unfamiliar smells, strangers, or other new things in their environment.




Skills: 4 at 7 ranks

Concentration 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Listen 7, Search 2, Spot 7?

Feats: 2
Alertness, Weapon Finesse?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Skills: 4 at 7 ranks
> 
> Concentration 7, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Listen 7, Search 2, Spot 7?




I'd rather swap the Knowledge/Search points around or drop the Knowledge and max out the Search.

Which reminds me, the rough draft says they have a racial bonus to Listen, Search and Spot. What are we putting there?



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Alertness, Weapon Finesse?




Seems reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather swap the Knowledge/Search points around or drop the Knowledge and max out the Search.




Well, it noted that they like to philosophize, but said nothing about actively searching for things taken while on guard duty.   How about leaving the Knowledge alone, and swap the Concentration and Search ranks?  It only has one combat-oriented SLA.



Cleon said:


> Which reminds me, the rough draft says they have a racial bonus to Listen, Search and Spot. What are we putting there?




+4 for all?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Well, it noted that they like to philosophize, but said nothing about actively searching for things taken while on guard duty.   How about leaving the Knowledge alone, and swap the Concentration and Search ranks?  It only has one combat-oriented SLA.




Speaking of that _shout_, it says they usually use it immediately after being attacked. That suggest either they rely on a good Concentration check (since they're most likely still being attacked) or it could be a (Su) rather than a (Sp). If we do the latter, we don't have to worry about Concentration and we can max-out all the skills.



Shade said:


> +4 for all?




That'd be OK, yes.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Speaking of that _shout_, it says they usually use it immediately after being attacked. That suggest either they rely on a good Concentration check (since they're most likely still being attacked) or it could be a (Su) rather than a (Sp). If we do the latter, we don't have to worry about Concentration and we can max-out all the skills.




Hmm...an immediate action Su ability?   Has potential...


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2011)

I like the sympathetic entanglement in the end.  But you guys have to let me catch up! 

Skills look good, and an immediate shout seems interesting to me too.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like the sympathetic entanglement in the end.  But you guys have to let me catch up!
> 
> Skills look good, and an immediate shout seems interesting to me too.




Before we get too carried away, I wasn't being literal when I said immediately. Let's check the original text...

"If this ability [double vision] fails, a suwyze magically _shouts_ for help, blasting opponents in the process"

So, its shout should be usable in combat, but doesn't have to be an immediate action.

Still, I wouldn't mind it being a 3/day Su rather than an SLA.

Although it specifically lists _shout_ among its Spell-Like Abilities, so maybe we should just leave it there. I'd still fewer skill ranks in Arcana and more in  Search, e.g. something like:

*Skills #1:* Concentration 5, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Listen 7, Search 5, Spot 7.
*Skills #2:* Concentration 5, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Listen 7, Search 7, Spot 7.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

I realize you weren't being literal, but I thought it would be fun to make in an immediate action Su ability.   3/day works fine.

Making it a Su ability renders little need for Concentration (invisibility being the only combat-related SLA), so I'd still rather ditch it for the other ranks.

Thus:

Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 7, Search 7, Spot 7.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> I realize you weren't being literal, but I thought it would be fun to make in an immediate action Su ability.   3/day works fine.
> 
> Making it a Su ability renders little need for Concentration (invisibility being the only combat-related SLA), so I'd still rather ditch it for the other ranks.
> 
> ...




Well I'm still not convinced that we need maxed-out ranks in Knowledge (arcana) just because they fancy themselves philosophers. There's little more justification for that than if we gave them Use Magic Device because they sometimes wear magic items.

For that matter, Knowledge (religion) covers a lot of philosophical ground too, why not put a few ranks in that?

Oh yes, I happened to check the original Dragon Mountain version of this beastie which is pretty clear about its tendril attacks causing the double vision:



			
				Dragon Mountain said:
			
		

> If forced into melee, a suwyze attacks with its feeding tendrils, each a 10-foot-long whiplike appendage covered with coarse, sandpapery skin. These abrasive whips cause 1-6 points of damage when each strikes. A more important talent of suwyze is their ability to induce magical double vision in their opponents as a play for sympathy: Unless the victim of an attack rolls a successful saving throw vs. spells, the attacker begins seeing the combat from the suwyze’s point of view, in a somewhat doctored form. The disorientation this causes imposes a –3 penalty upon all attack rolls. Hearing the piteous cries of the suwyze and seeing the magically exaggerated effects of each blow are so eerie that opponents suffer a –1 penalty to damage rolls as well. If this ability fails, a suwyze magically _shouts _for help, blasting opponents in the process.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well I'm still not convinced that we need maxed-out ranks in Knowledge (arcana) just because they fancy themselves philosophers. There's little more justification for that than if we gave them Use Magic Device because they sometimes wear magic items.




The types of item they wear don't tend to require UMD checks.



Cleon said:


> For that matter, Knowledge (religion) covers a lot of philosophical ground too, why not put a few ranks in that?




I'd be fine with shifting a few ranks to Knowledge (religion).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> The types of item they wear don't tend to require UMD checks.




I had a feeling that'd be your response, my precognition is on a roll this week. 



Shade said:


> I'd be fine with shifting a few ranks to Knowledge (religion).




So, Knowledge (arcana) 3, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Listen 7, Search 7, Spot 7?


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2011)

Yep.  Updated skills and feats.

For the discussed revision to shout above, something like this?

Retalitory Shout (Su):  Three times per day, a suwyze may unleash a supernatural scream as an immediate action after taking damage.   This functions a shout spell (caster level 8th, DC X).  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.  Updated skills and feats.
> 
> For the discussed revision to shout above, something like this?
> 
> Retalitory Shout (Su):  Three times per day, a suwyze may unleash a supernatural scream as an immediate action after taking damage.   This functions a shout spell (caster level 8th, DC X).  The save DC is Charisma-based.




That'd work, although personally I'm leaning more and more towards leaving it an SLA. The DC is 17 either way.


----------



## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

A bit more standard to leave it as an SLA, but then we need to pilfer some ranks for Concentration.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> A bit more standard to leave it as an SLA, but then we need to pilfer some ranks for Concentration.




We don't _have_ to give it ranks in Concentration, you know. There are SRD creatures with spell-like abilities that don't have Concentration, some (i.e. Babau Demon, Dretch, Quasit, Barghest, Kolyarut, Zelekhut) would certainly have a use for that skill. That's probably just careless design, of course.


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2011)

True, I'm just inclined to make it slightly more effective.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2011)

If we make it SLA, we probably should have a few ranks in Concentration (since it's presumably used in battle).   

So freyar, it looks like the decision once more falls to you:  SLA or Su?


----------



## freyar (Nov 29, 2011)

Let's just leave it as an SLA and pilfer some ranks for Concentration.  I like Cleon's option #2 in post 1223 for the skill ranks.  If we really want more Knowledge skills, shift a couple from Search.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

So be it.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

Shade said:


> So be it.  Updated.




That's fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

That brings us to...

Challenge Rating: 3?  (That's an awful lot of attacks, and shout is rather potent at low levels)

Treasure: Standard?  (They're usually guarding something)

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: x


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> That brings us to...
> 
> Challenge Rating: 3?  (That's an awful lot of attacks, and shout is rather potent at low levels)




I wouldn't be adverse to CR 4. They have Reach, lots of attacks, quite combat potent SLAs (_shout_ and _invisibility_) and are very hard to surprise.



Shade said:


> Treasure: Standard?  (They're usually guarding something)




Treasure Type I is pretty rich in valuables:

*Type I:*
3-18 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
2-20 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 1: 15%

I'd go for Double coins and goods, plus standard items.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually neutral?




Usually neutral seems a good fit. They are more interested in  philosophizing on perception than morality, although their interest in  philosophy could lead them towards following a belief system.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




I was thinking 5-8 HD (Small); 9-12 HD (Medium) but would accept 5-6 HD (Small); 7-12 HD (Medium).

What Reach would a Medium-sized Suwyze have, 15 feet or 20 feet?


----------



## freyar (Dec 1, 2011)

I'll agree with Cleon, including his first advancement option.  I also wouldn't mind just going to flat double standard treasure.  Or else just "standard" for what they have and note that they often guard the treasure of a higher CR boss.  As for CR, I think the extra abilities do suggest CR 4, even if they are a bit squishy.


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2011)

Looks good.  Updated.

I even threw in some flavor text without endangering myself to falling hints.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.
> 
> I even threw in some flavor text without endangering myself to falling hints.




Hmm...

Does it really need "As a result" in "As a result, it will offer its services to any creature that can promise it a steady supply of food"? Speaking of that paragraph, I like the original text's use of "watchdog" and "symbiotic relationship", so fancy working them into the background.

The bit about philosophizing seems a bit clumsily worded.

The "unusal" is presumably a typo for "unusual".

A "gracious master" would be kindly, but not necessarily generous. I'd suggest magnanimous.

It Should have a size and weight.

How's this...

Suwyze are subterranean aberrations with formidable sensory powers. Because of its extensive sensory powers, a  suwyze must eat much more than other creatures of its size, particularly  meat. Suwyze usually live in symbiotic relationships with  other underground creatures, serving as watchdogs or sentinels in return for a steady supply of food. 

Curious and inquisitive, suwyze consider themselves philosophers,  endlessly ruminating on the nature of perception.  They are also  cowardly, easily spooked by odd noises, unfamiliar smells, strangers, or  anything else out of the ordinary.

Because of their unusual array of sensory organs, suwyze savor scents,  colors, and textures.  As they age, their tastes harden, demanding a  specifically-designed habitat, and thus making them difficult to  transfer from one area to another.

A suwyze can use rings and bracers on its tendrils, and a favored beast may be granted these items by a magnanimous master.

A suwyze is a 20 foot diameter ball of tendrils and antennae radiating from a central body about a foot across. It weighs about 40 pounds. Most of this weight is in the suwyze's central core, the bulk of its volume is featherlight feelers.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

I like your revision.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like your revision.  Updated.




I wondered about making its Space/Reach be 5 ft./5 ft. (tendrils 10ft.), but upon reflection 5 ft./10 ft. is better. Like a Choker, all its appendages are so elongated it gets a 10 ft. general Reach.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

So are we finished with this one?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> So are we finished with this one?




I'm OK with it, unless you want to say what Reach a Medium-sized Suwyze has.


----------



## freyar (Dec 5, 2011)

You don't usually do that (see the choker), so I'd say not to bother.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> You don't usually do that (see the choker), so I'd say not to bother.




I just knew that's what you were going to say...

Actually, a Choker's not a good example of this problem, since a Small creature normally has the same reach when it advances to Medium. We should be worrying about advancing giant octopodes and the like...


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I just knew that's what you were going to say...
> 
> Actually, a Choker's not a good example of this problem, since a Small creature normally has the same reach when it advances to Medium. We should be worrying about advancing giant octopodes and the like...




...of course, they don't note it either (see kraken, giant squid, etc.).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> ...of course, they don't note it either (see kraken, giant squid, etc.).




Yes, dang their lack of obsessive detail... 

Anyone, I think this chap's done, so what's next?


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

*Undead Dragon Slayer*
Climate/Terrain: Any (Io’s Blood islands) 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: None 
Intelligence: High to genius (13-18) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Varies 
No. Appearing: 1 or 1-4 
Armor Class: 0 (-1, -2, or -3 vs. dragons) 
Movement: 12 
Hit Dice: 9, 10, or 11 (10-sided dice) 
THAC0: 11, 10, or 9 
No. of Attacks: 3/2 
Damage/Attack: By weapon 
Special Attacks: See below 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: 60% 
Size: M (6-7’ tall) 
Morale: Fearless (19) 
XP Value: 7,000 

An undead dragon slayer is a horrifying creature returned from death to destroy dragons. The undead dragon slayer has a skeletal visage, rotted flesh, and dead, hollow eyes. Most stand between six and seven feet tall, and weigh around 250 pounds in armor. The armor is specially crafted plate mail, with a dragon-scale design and dragon-shaped helm. Now battered and beaten, it glows with supernatural color – inspired by the dragon type the slayer hates most. Undead dragon slayers are of neutral or evil alignment.

With a voice as cold as the dead and as deep as a grave, an undead dragon slayer speaks its native toneue. as well as the languages of dragons.

Combat: The undead dragon slayer retains the fighting skills it had in life, and gains more from its undead nature. Undead dragon slayers are immune to the effects of dragon fear, and take either half or no damage if they make a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon. They can't be turned by clerics, but are driven away by the holy word spell.

Their special armor provides a base Armor Class 0. Against dragons, this improves to -1, -2, or -3, depending on the Hit Dice of the slayer. The slayer’s THAC0 improves from 11 at 9 Hit Dice to 10 at 10 HD and to 9 at 11 HD.

Undead dragon slayers use long swords (80% likely) or two-handed swords (20% likely). This weapon functions as a sword +2, dragon slayer in the slayer’s hands, and the slayer can attack three times in every two combat rounds. Supernatural strength gives them an attack bonus of +5 against dragons and a damage bonus of +15, +16, or +17, depending on the slayer’s Hit Dice (against nondragons, the bonuses are +3 to hit and +6 damage). Undead dragon slayers know five of the following spells: breath stun, breach attack, dodge attack, double damage, great blow, weapon throw, and wing attack.

Breath Stun: Aimed at the gullet, this attack (at a -4 penalty) disables the breath weapon. Besides the damage, the breath weapon is disabled for 1 round per point of damage inflicted.

Breach Attack: The slayer must be facing the dragon’s underbelly (neck to abdomen), spend a round without attacking, and make an Intelligence check. This gives the slayer’s next attack roll a +6 bonus, +2 if the Intelligence check is failed. Breach attacks can be combined with double damage.

Dazzle: Twirling a weapon confuses the dragon and prevents it from casting spells or using innate magical powers by disrupting the its ability to concentrate.

Dodge Attack: A combination of evasion and attack in one round, this requires a successful Dexterity check. The slayer receives a 4-point Armor Class bonus, a +2 to saving throws vs. breath weapon, and an attack roll bonus of +2.

Double Damage: On a successful attack roll the base damage inflicted by the weapon is doubled; other bonuses for magic, Strength, etc., are added normally. Double damage can be combined with a breach attack if both techniques are known.

Great Blow: This attack uses everything a slayer has and can be aimed at any part of the dragon’s body. A slayer expends hit points and receives a -4 penalty. If successful, the dragon takes normal damage for the attack plus as many more hit points as the slayer expended.

Weapon Throw: The slayer hurls his primary weapon at the dragon. Ranges and attack penalties are: short 15 feet, -2; medium 30 feet, -4; long 45 feet, -6. Damage is determined normally. No other special attack can be used with this one.

Wing Attack: Aimed at the wing muscles, this attack (at -3) inflicts normal damage and keeps the dragon from flying for 1 round per point of damage inflicted.

Habitat/Society: Most undead dragon slayers are called back from the grave by necromantic magic. Though it retains its own mind and agenda, it must obey the commands of the summoner – at least until its task is complete or it somehow wins its freedom. A small number af dragon slayers actually will themselves back from the dead. These individuals have the utmost faith in their cause, an undying hatred of dragons, and a supernatural strength of will. No matter which type of undead dragon slayer is encountered, all seek to destroy dragons and those who would offer aid to them. An undead dragon slayer might be found in the company of skeleton warriors or dracoliches.

Ecology: In the Council of Wyrms setting, undead dragon slayers were members of the vast army of human warriors who invaded the Io’s Blood isles in ages past. Any slayer of 9th level or greater who died before his holy task was finished can rise as an undead warrior.

While a slayer does not eat, it must slay dragons to replenish the energy that keeps him animated. Killing a dragon provides an undead dragon slayer with enough energy to last one month for every Hit Die the dragon had. If it does not replenish its energy within one week of the moment its last meal fades, it loses strength and must return to the sleep of the dead.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #205 (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three reprint.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

I strongly support template for this one.

Most of those "spells" sound more like Ex or Su abilities.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> I strongly support template for this one.




Yes, they certainly have a whiff of template to them.



Shade said:


> Most of those "spells" sound more like Ex or Su abilities.




That's because they didn't start out as spells. They're special attacks of the Dragonslayer class from the Council of Wyrms Campaign Setting.

Indeed, most of the special abilities seem to come from its original class - the undead version gains the ability to enchant weapons and armour it is using and a decent Magic Resistance.

Hmm, these things can be neutral and are immune to turning. What are we going to do about that?


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2011)

Come to think of it, I remember seeing an AD&D monster page for a Dragon Slayer somewhere...

Ah, here it is. Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 2.

Does that have anything we can use?

It says there are Dragon Slayer clerics and wizards, but the Undead version only seem to be fighters. What's up with that?


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, these things can be neutral and are immune to turning. What are we going to do about that?




Make them immune to both turning and rebuking?



Cleon said:


> It says there are Dragon Slayer clerics and wizards, but the Undead version only seem to be fighters. What's up with that?




I'd like to make the template prereqs flexible enough to allow all of the above (at least w/multiclassing).


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2011)

Think I agree with everything so far.  I also think we might get some inspiration from some Draconomicon PrCs.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Make them immune to both turning and rebuking?




Well we could make it just immunity to turning, but I prefer both.



Shade said:


> I'd like to make the template prereqs flexible enough to allow all of the above (at least w/multiclassing).




That raises the question of what prereqs to go for.

A +9 BAB? That would fit with them being 9th+ level fighters.

It also says self-formed undead dragon slayers (as opposed to ones created by black magic) have "supernatural strength of will".

Give them a good Will save or a bonus to Will saves?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

+9 BAB is better than some fighter-specific feat.  On the other hand, it almost completely rules out wizards or sorcerers, which we wanted to include.  Might need to make it "+9 BAB or" something (caster level, maybe?).  

On the other hand, we're really going to have to alter the description and abilities for a spell casting version.


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> +9 BAB is better than some fighter-specific feat.  On the other hand, it almost completely rules out wizards or sorcerers, which we wanted to include.  Might need to make it "+9 BAB or" something (caster level, maybe?).
> 
> On the other hand, we're really going to have to alter the description and abilities for a spell casting version.




We could go for +9 BAB or ability to cast 5th level spells.

Since the Undead Dragon Slayer selects a number of abilities from a menu, I was thinking we could just have martial and spellcaster options in the menu.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

We could lower the BAB and require a blend of Knowledge (arcana) (which applies to dragons) and maybe Weapon Focus (which any class can take).


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> We could lower the BAB and require a blend of Knowledge (arcana) (which applies to dragons) and maybe Weapon Focus (which any class can take).




I like the notion of restricting them to approximately 9th+ level characters.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2011)

I could go either way, so it depends on how strong your collective opinions are.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> I could go either way, so it depends on how strong your collective opinions are.




I'm pretty keen on 9th-level+. Shall we wait to see which Shade prefers?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm pretty keen on 9th-level+. Shall we wait to see which Shade prefers?




That's fine with me, as long as the prereqs are flexible to allow a variety of 9th-level characters.   Something like...

Base attack bonus +4, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Weapon Focus

This allows single-classed fighters, clerics, and wizards to all qualify by 9th-level, but may allow multiclass characters to enter a bit earlier.

If you'd prefer, we can make it so a multi-class character can enter at 9th-level, and make it more difficult for single-classed characters.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's fine with me, as long as the prereqs are flexible to allow a variety of 9th-level characters.   Something like...
> 
> Base attack bonus +4, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Weapon Focus
> 
> ...




That approach could work. Although as written it fits better to an 8th+ level character, not 9th+.

How about it requiring a +3 or higher base Will save and based Fortitude save? That would fit well with a 9th level requirement.

e.g. Base Will save +3,  Base Fort save +3, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Weapon Focus?

Hmm, that would be rather easy for a Cleric to achieve, though. Do we want that?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

All the suggestions would be pretty easy for a cleric.  Other than BAB +9 or 5th level spells, I haven't seen any suggestions that would stop a cleric entering by 4th level.  Not sure what to suggest, though.  I guess it really depends on how strict we want to be with the level requirement.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> All the suggestions would be pretty easy for a cleric.  Other than BAB +9 or 5th level spells, I haven't seen any suggestions that would stop a cleric entering by 4th level.  Not sure what to suggest, though.  I guess it really depends on how strict we want to be with the level requirement.




D'oh!  I forgot cleric's have Knowledge (arcana) on their class list.   

Limiting clerics is tricky.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> D'oh!  I forgot cleric's have Knowledge (arcana) on their class list.
> 
> Limiting clerics is tricky.




So are we going back to +9 BAB or 5th level spells?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

I suppose, though that pushes some classes to even higher levels.  Still, I'm fine with it if Shade is.


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> I suppose, though that pushes some classes to even higher levels.  Still, I'm fine with it if Shade is.




Fine.

We might as well start on something else.

Some kind of "Arms of the Dragonslayer" ability?

Any melee weapon wielded by a Dragon Slayer gains the bane property against dragons and an enhancement bonus of +*X*?


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## Mortis (Dec 14, 2011)

Can't the prereq simply be 'character level 9+'? A bit like Weapon Specialisation requires Fighter level 4+.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Can't the prereq simply be 'character level 9+'? A bit like Weapon Specialisation requires Fighter level 4+.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Offhand I can't think of any templates that have character level as a prereq, so I'd prefer the BAB / spell level approach.


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## Mortis (Dec 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Offhand I can't think of any templates that have character level as a prereq, so I'd prefer the BAB / spell level approach.



The closest I guess would be the lich template/phylactery requiring a caster level of 11+

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

Mortis said:


> The closest I guess would be the lich template/phylactery requiring a caster level of 11+
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




So how about base attack bonus 9+ or caster level 9+?


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## Mortis (Dec 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So how about base attack bonus 9+ or caster level 9+?



That's fine with me. 

However rogues will be the only core class that cannot qualify at 9th level. 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Monks also.  But it doesn't have to be perfect.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

This approach can work!


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Then, prereq of BAB +9 or 9th caster level it is.

Not sure about any ability bonus, since we're trying to gear this toward almost all classes.  Maybe we should see what it needs for its special abilities.


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## Mortis (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Monks also.



I always forget about Monks as I don't use them in my game. I'm one of those who don't like monks in a standard fantasy game. Actually I don't mind monks as such (i.e. western monks). What I don't like are all the special abilities taken from martial arts films - like slow fall etc.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Not sure about any ability bonus, since we're trying to gear this toward almost all classes.  Maybe we should see what it needs for its special abilities.




That seems the best approach.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2011)

In that case, should we do the "menu" of special attacks first?


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Then, prereq of BAB +9 or 9th caster level it is.
> 
> Not sure about any ability bonus, since we're trying to gear this toward almost all classes.  Maybe we should see what it needs for its special abilities.




Are you asking what ability bonuses (if any) the template should proffer, or whether the prereqs should require a particular ability score?

If the former, I'm thinking it should probably have a bonuses to most of its abilities, like the SRD Vampire's  Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. Maybe not exactly like the Vamp, although that's probably pretty close.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> In that case, should we do the "menu" of special attacks first?




That sounds like a plan.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> That sounds like a plan.




Go on then!


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2011)

Hmm, let's first note that they get a big attack and damage bonus against dragons --- maybe this should apply to spells cast against dragons too.

In any case, the original monster gets to choose 5 from the following options (I'm trying to translate to 3.5 quickly):
Disable breath weapon for a period
Check to get attack bonus (think lesser version of true strike or assassin's death attack)
Dazzle*
Dodge to AC, save bonus, attack bonus*
Double damage
Something like Power Attack (w/hp penalty maybe)*
Weapon throwing*
Prevent dragon from flying

Some of these (with *) seem like we could make them abilities of all undead dragon slayers, maybe as bonus feats.  Weapon throwing just seems like usual improvised use of a weapon as a thrown weapon given attack penalties.

What seem like good ideas for caster special attacks?


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, let's first note that they get a big attack and damage bonus against dragons --- maybe this should apply to spells cast against dragons too.




Methinks we could recycle most of the Ranger's Favoured Enemy ability.

Adding a spell DC boost against Dragons suits me.



freyar said:


> In any case, the original monster gets to choose 5 from the following options (I'm trying to translate to 3.5 quickly):
> 
> Disable breath weapon for a period
> Check to get attack bonus (think lesser version of true strike or assassin's death attack)
> ...




That suits me. A few of the abilities are pretty minor and circumstantial (such as weapon throwing) compared to Disabling Breath Weapon strikes and the like.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Methinks we could recycle most of the Ranger's Favoured Enemy ability.
> 
> Adding a spell DC boost against Dragons suits me.




Both appeal.  It also sounds like it magically imbues its weapon with the bane (dragons) property.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Disable breath weapon for a period




Su ability?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Check to get attack bonus (think lesser version of true strike or assassin's death attack)




Borrow this from dragonslayer prestige class?

True Strike (Sp): At 10th level, a dragonslayer may use true strike once per day as a move action.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Dazzle*




I suppose a Su special attack.  I can find no feats that dazzle without magic.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Dodge to AC, save bonus, attack bonus*




This almost sounds like improved evasion (perhaps restricted to breath weapons?), Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat (like the dragonslayer prestige class), and the attack bonus could be simply rolled into favored enemy and/or bane.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Double damage




Ex special attack for double damage x/day, or maybe add level/HD like fiendish template or improved crit range vs. dragons?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Something like Power Attack (w/hp penalty maybe)*




I believe I've seen a similar power...



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Weapon throwing*




It sounds a bit like the Throw Anything and Power Throw feats.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Prevent dragon from flying




Might be able to borrow from wingbind spell.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Both appeal.  It also sounds like it magically imbues its weapon with the bane (dragons) property.




I'm tempted to give them both "Anti-Dragon Weapon Enchantments" and Favoured Enemy vs Dragons.



Shade said:


> Su ability?




If I remember the flavour text for this rightly it looks much more like an (Ex) special attack.



Shade said:


> Borrow this from dragonslayer prestige class?
> 
> True Strike (Sp): At 10th level, a dragonslayer may use true strike once per day as a move action.




We might as well get _something_ out of the Dragonslayer class. 



Shade said:


> I suppose a Su special attack.  I can find no feats that dazzle without magic.




I don't see why dazzle couldn't be an Ex attack - what about the old "throw pepper in the eyes" trick?

And don't say it only works with magic pepper. 



Shade said:


> This almost sounds like improved evasion (perhaps restricted to breath weapons?), Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat (like the dragonslayer prestige class), and the attack bonus could be simply rolled into favored enemy and/or bane.




That sounds OK to me. I'm tempted to give them all Evasion vs Breath Weapons as a basic ability, and have Improved Evasion vs Breath Weapons as an option.



Shade said:


> Ex special attack for double damage x/day, or maybe add level/HD like fiendish template or improved crit range vs. dragons?




I'm thinking a "Smite Dragon" attack based on Hit Dice. There are plenty of similar special attacks.



Shade said:


> I believe I've seen a similar power...




We've already thinking about a number of damage-boosting powers, so I'd prefer something more interesting.



Shade said:


> It sounds a bit like the Throw Anything and Power Throw feats.




Sounds about right.



Shade said:


> Might be able to borrow from wingbind spell.




I'm sure I've seen some other SAs that ground flyers, but can't recall exactly where...


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

Let's deal with one thing at a time, I guess.  

Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability.

Dragonbane Weapon (Su): Any weapon wielded by an undead dragon slayer, including natural weapons??, gains a +1 enhancement bonus (does not stack) and the bane property against dragons.  This is a supernatural ability of the undead dragon slayer and not of the weapon itself.

What do you think about having it apply to natural weapons?

You know, a dragon slaying weapon ability similar to the above might work as an option, too.


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## Cleon (Dec 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's deal with one thing at a time, I guess.
> 
> Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability.




We'd need to say what bonus the Favored Enemy offers, and we were talking about giving its spells a DC boost against Dragons as well.



freyar said:


> Dragonbane Weapon (Su): Any weapon wielded by an undead dragon slayer, including natural weapons??, gains a +1 enhancement bonus (does not stack) and the bane property against dragons.  This is a supernatural ability of the undead dragon slayer and not of the weapon itself.
> 
> What do you think about having it apply to natural weapons?
> 
> You know, a dragon slaying weapon ability similar to the above might work as an option, too.




So Dragonbane Attacks instead of Dragonbane Weapons?

Didn't the original text suggests this ability only applies to a particular weapon of the Dragonslayer, suggesting they need to "tune a weapon to their powers" or something.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2011)

Oh yeah, right.  What do you think, +4 bonus for favored enemy?  That would give the weapon 2d6+6 extra hp of damage vs dragons compared to other critters, or +13hp on average.  I guess we could bump to +6 favored enemy.

The original text just says "Undead dragon slayers use long swords (80% likely) or two-handed swords (20% likely). This weapon functions as a sword +2, dragon slayer in the slayer’s hands, and the slayer can attack three times in every two combat rounds."  It doesn't seem to me that "attuning" is required.  Sounds like some sort of hasting might be involved or something like Whirlwind Attack *.  Could be something we swap into the "menu."

Anyway, here we are, adding a proposal for the casters:
Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies with a bonus of +6, as per the ranger class ability.

Dragonbane Attacks (Su): Any weapon wielded by an undead dragon slayer, including natural weapons, gains a +1 enhancement bonus (does not stack) and the bane property against dragons. This is a supernatural ability of the undead dragon slayer and not of the weapon itself.

Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain the benefits of Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons.  In addition, an undead dragon slayer may Maximize one spell per day at no cost if that spell's target is a dragon.*


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

Why not just make favored enemy bonus equal to a ranger of the dragonslayer's Hit Dice?


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Why not just make favored enemy bonus equal to a ranger of the dragonslayer's Hit Dice?




Yes, that's what I'm thinking: +4 for 8-9 HD, +6 for 10-14 HD, +8 for 15-19 HD, +10 for 20-24 HD, +11 for 25-29 HD, +12 for 30-34 HD and so on, with +1 per additional +5 HD.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability.  The bonus is equal to the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability.  The bonus is equal to the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD.




That's fine.

I suppose we should say it doesn't stack with favoured enemy from other sources, otherwise Dragonslayer Rangers can get double-good favoured enemy.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

Hmmm, if they were already rangers concerned with dragons, shouldn't it be double good?  I guess that does sound over-powered.  Makes sense.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, if they were already rangers concerned with dragons, shouldn't it be double good?  I guess that does sound over-powered.  Makes sense.




Do you mean it makes sense not to allow stacking, or it makes sense to have it stack with Favoured Enemy bonuses from other classes?

I'm guessing the former, but wasn't quite sure.


----------



## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Sorry, I meant _not_ to allow stacking.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sorry, I meant _not_ to allow stacking.




That's what I suspected. A simple addition should sort that out:

		 		Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as  favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability. The bonus is equal to  the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD. An undead dragon slayers ability does not stack with any other favored enemy ability.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2011)

Good.  How about the casting and dragonbane bits?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Good.  How about the casting and dragonbane bits?




Something like "Furthermore, if an undead dragon slayer casts a spell at a dragon it has a +1 bonus to its DC and does additional hit points of damage equal to their favored enemy bonus."?


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

That could work.  I had another proposal upthread for your consideration, but I'm not tied to it.  Which do you prefer?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> That could work.  I had another proposal upthread for your consideration, but I'm not tied to it.  Which do you prefer?




The "Anti-Dragon Casting"?

The approach is OK. My first thought was that it should give a bonus rather than the feats, so a caster who _already_ has Spell Penetration or whatever is not penalized. Although come to think of that, if we don't give Ranger-types bonus doubling we _*certainly*_ shouldn't be giving spellcasters bonus doubling!

Hmm... I would like it to scale with level somewhat though. How about it gets a bonus on spell penetration equal to *half* the Favoured Enemy bonus (which is nice, but not that overpowering since most dragons have pretty low SRs for their Challenge Rating already) plus Spell Focus (plus Greater Spell Focus at CL 17th+) for all spells cast against Dragons?


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

That would work for me.  I think I like that route better than the additional damage from spells in favored enemy.

Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a bonus equal to half their favored enemy bonus on caster level checks to overcome the spell resistance of dragons (this does not stack with other bonuses, such as from Spell Penetration) as well as the effects of Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons. At caster level 17th, an undead dragon slayer also gains the effects of Greater Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons.  In addition, an undead dragon slayer may Maximize one spell per day at no cost if that spell's target is a dragon.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> That would work for me.  I think I like that route better than the additional damage from spells in favored enemy.
> 
> Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a bonus equal to half their favored enemy bonus on caster level checks to overcome the spell resistance of dragons (this does not stack with other bonuses, such as from Spell Penetration) as well as the effects of Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons. At caster level 17th, an undead dragon slayer also gains the effects of Greater Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons.  In addition, an undead dragon slayer may Maximize one spell per day at no cost if that spell's target is a dragon.




I'd rather cut out the free Maximize Spell. The DC and SR penetration seem enough for the basic ability. We could give them free Metamagic feats as one of their "optional picks" special abilities.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather cut out the free Maximize Spell. The DC and SR penetration seem enough for the basic ability. We could give them free Metamagic feats as one of their "optional picks" special abilities.




Good plan.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

Agreed.

Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a bonus equal to half their favored enemy bonus on caster level checks to overcome the spell resistance of dragons (this does not stack with other bonuses, such as from Spell Penetration) as well as the effects of Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons. At caster level 17th, an undead dragon slayer also gains the effects of Greater Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons.


Speaking of which, are we ready for the "menu"?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good plan.




Yes, we'll need something for the spellcasting Undead Dragon Slayers.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2012)

Before starting on the menu items, we had a few that we thought might be good for all undead dragon slayers, like weapon throwing.  Which of those do we want to forget or promote to all the undead dragon slayers?  I'm starting to think we might have just about enough for all of them, though I have some inclination to give all of them a dodge bonus against dragons (I had that listed as Dodge to AC, save bonus, attack bonus*).


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> Before starting on the menu items, we had a few that we thought might be good for all undead dragon slayers, like weapon throwing.  Which of those do we want to forget or promote to all the undead dragon slayers?  I'm starting to think we might have just about enough for all of them, though I have some inclination to give all of them a dodge bonus against dragons (I had that listed as Dodge to AC, save bonus, attack bonus*).




Yes, some increased defenses vs dragons makes good sense.

I'm not sure about the weapon throwing. Unless it gets free weapon returning as well it's just a fast way for the Slayer to disarm itself. Still, if it's pretty useless I suppose that means it doesn't increase its power much to make it a general ability.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Before starting on the menu items, we had a few that we thought might be good for all undead dragon slayers, like weapon throwing.  Which of those do we want to forget or promote to all the undead dragon slayers?  I'm starting to think we might have just about enough for all of them, though I have some inclination to give all of them a dodge bonus against dragons (I had that listed as Dodge to AC, save bonus, attack bonus*).




I'd like to give that to all of 'em.



Cleon said:


> Yes, some increased defenses vs dragons makes good sense.
> 
> I'm not sure about the weapon throwing. Unless it gets free weapon returning as well it's just a fast way for the Slayer to disarm itself. Still, if it's pretty useless I suppose that means it doesn't increase its power much to make it a general ability.




It's not always amazingly great, but it makes for a nice final stand/finishing move.


----------



## freyar (Jan 5, 2012)

So something like this?  I'm leaving off the attack bonus, since favored enemy should take care of that.  I'm not sure if a +4 dodge bonus seems like too much. 

Dragon Defense?? (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons.

Let's put weapon throwing in the menu but give it some cool effect.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> So something like this?  I'm leaving off the attack bonus, since favored enemy should take care of that.  I'm not sure if a +4 dodge bonus seems like too much.
> 
> Dragon Defense?? (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons.




If you feel +4 is too high we could make it +2 dodge, +1 Reflex at lower levels, say 1st to 11th, +4/+2 at higher ones (12th+).



freyar said:


> Let's put weapon throwing in the menu but give it some cool effect.




The notion of giving them all a "plain vanilla" weapon throwing ability and a menu-option for a "super-throwing" attack appeals to me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't want it to be too fiddly.  Let's just do +4/+2.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't want it to be too fiddly.  Let's just do +4/+2.




but... but... I _like_ fiddly. 

We could give it a lower version as standard, and an "Improved Dragon Defense" as one of its optional picks.

Have we thought about giving it Evasion versus Breath Weapons?


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Hmmm.  That's an idea.

Dragon Defense?? (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons.

For the menu:

Improved Dragon Defense?? (Ex): The undead dragon slayers gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.  In addition, the undead dragon slayer gains Evasion (as the rogue class feature) against dragon breath weapons.  


Should the evasion stack with other sources of evasion to give improved evasion?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.  That's an idea.
> 
> Dragon Defense?? (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons.
> 
> ...




I was thinking more of making the Evasion a separate ability that's good against any breath weapon thus:

Improved Dragon Defense?? (Ex): The undead dragon slayers gains an  additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against  attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.



freyar said:


> Should the evasion stack with other sources of evasion to give improved evasion?




Yes.

Breath Evasion (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains evasion (as the rogue class feature)  against breath weapons. If the slayer has evasion from another source, its breath evasion becomes increases to improved evasion against breath weapons.


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, that's 2 menu items.  

You had some thoughts on weapon throwing.  Want to spell that out?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, that's 2 menu items.
> 
> You had some thoughts on weapon throwing.  Want to spell that out?




Probably just a +4 bonus on the attack and a stonking big damage bonus.


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2012)

Then 

Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon.  The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 damage bonus and does +XdX extra damage.

Like that?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Then
> 
> Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon.  The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 damage bonus and does +XdX extra damage.
> 
> Like that?




Yes, although that was for the "Improved" Weapon Throwing, not the regular version.


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

What's the regular version?  You want to split something out for all of them?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> What's the regular version?  You want to split something out for all of them?




I thought we were just going to give them some Weapon Throwing feat and possibly a small bonus to attack for the basic version.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I thought we were just going to give them some Weapon Throwing feat and possibly a small bonus to attack for the basic version.




A bit like rock throwing and the common +1 racial bonus for giants?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

Shade said:


> A bit like rock throwing and the common +1 racial bonus for giants?




That'd do.


----------



## freyar (Jan 19, 2012)

If we could get a homebrews going, it would be a lot easier to figure out what we've got for these.  

How much extra damage for "improved throwing"?  +2d6?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> If we could get a homebrews going, it would be a lot easier to figure out what we've got for these.




Be careful there, I wouldn't want to trip over your hints... 



freyar said:


> How much extra damage for "improved throwing"?  +2d6?




That wouldn't make much of a dent in a dragon. I was thinking more +1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 additional levels, like a rogue's Sneak Attack.


----------



## freyar (Jan 22, 2012)

As rogue's sneak attack works.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> As rogue's sneak attack works.




Care to phrase that as a Special Attack?


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

"Menu Item":

Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial attack bonus and does +1d6 plus +1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer of extra damage.  The attack bonus does not stack with that gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.

For all of them:

Weapon Throwing (Ex): Undead dragon slayers can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon.  The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +1 racial attack bonus.


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

Added to Homebrews, finally.  Rejoice!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> "Menu Item":
> 
> Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial attack bonus and does +1d6 plus +1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer of extra damage.  The attack bonus does not stack with that gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.
> 
> ...




The phrasing of the damage bonus is a bit cluttery, why not...

Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any  weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any  penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial  attack bonus and does additional damage equal to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer.  The attack bonus does not stack with that  gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2012)

That works fine for me.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews, finally.  Rejoice!




Huzzah!

I'd prefer "_What flesh is visible is grey and rotted._" over ""_Where its flesh is visible, it is gray and rotted._"

The red text could do with some work, but I'd leave that for later.

I'd rather the Armor Class was "The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6" like the SRD Vampire. They should be tough, and AC 16 matches nicely with the original's base AC 4.

I tidied up the Improved Weapon Throwing in my previous post.

There's a greater shadowrath in the Spell Resistance.

I wouldn't have separate pools for the optional special attacks/qualities, but something like the following.

*Additional Special Abilities*
An undead dragon slayer may select [any 4?] of the following special abilities. [+1 special ability for every X points of BAB/caster level it gains about 9?]

_Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex):_ _ ?_

_Draconic Spell Resistance (Ex): ?
_
_Improved Breath Evasion (Ex):__ ?_

etc...


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer "_What flesh is visible is grey and rotted._" over ""_Where its flesh is visible, it is gray and rotted._"




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> The red text could do with some work, but I'd leave that for later.




Yeah, it's a straight cut n' paste from the original.   I marked it to remind me it needed changing.



Cleon said:


> I'd rather the Armor Class was "The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6" like the SRD Vampire. They should be tough, and AC 16 matches nicely with the original's base AC 4.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> I tidied up the Improved Weapon Throwing in my previous post.
> 
> There's a greater shadowrath in the Spell Resistance.
> 
> ...




Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Updated.




You've got Breath Evasion in the Additional Special Abilities, we were going to make that a standard Special Quality with an Improved Version as an optional extra.


----------



## freyar (Jan 27, 2012)

More menu items.

Shade had this one (which I am modifying for our purposes):
True Strike (Sp): The undead dragon slayer may use true strike once per day as a move action on any attack against a dragon.

A dazzling Su attack.
Something like wingbind.
Smite dragon.  
We wanted some for casters, too; free metamagic vs dragons was one idea.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> More menu items.
> 
> Shade had this one (which I am modifying for our purposes):
> True Strike (Sp): The undead dragon slayer may use true strike once per day as a move action on any attack against a dragon.
> ...




That all sounds good. Would you like to write any of them up?


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2012)

Let's try the dazzle.  The original is this:


> Dazzle: Twirling a weapon confuses the dragon and prevents it from casting spells or using innate magical powers by disrupting the its ability to concentrate.




Dazzling Display (Su): An undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it.  A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds.  In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at the same DC to cast any spell or use a spell-like ability.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's try the dazzle.  The original is this:
> 
> Dazzling Display (Su): An undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it.  A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds.  In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at the same DC to cast any spell or use a spell-like ability.




What action is required? I'm tempted to allow it as part of a full attack sequence (e.g. the slayer loses the first attack in the iterative sequence) or be a move or swift action.

Also, the Dazzling Display can interrupt spells that require concentration to maintain.

Finally, isn't Concentration too easy a check? Should we make it a Will save?


----------



## freyar (Jan 31, 2012)

Hmmm, I had been thinking standard, but I like making it part of a full attack.

Maybe boost the DC for the Concentration check.  That's the check that makes sense to use.

Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at XX DC to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, I had been thinking standard, but I like making it part of a full attack.
> 
> Maybe boost the DC for the Concentration check.  That's the check that makes sense to use.
> 
> Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at XX DC to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration.




That looks OK apart from the first sentence. I was thinking the Undead Dragon Slayer has to give up the first iterative attack of a full attack to use a Dazzling Display, or make some other sacrifice.

I suppose we could give it some sort of attack penalty (-2?) instead of giving up an attack?


----------



## freyar (Feb 5, 2012)

That starts to get about as complicated as a character class ability, requiring more choice about when to use it.  This is a monster, so let's keep it simple and let the DM just use it.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> That starts to get about as complicated as a character class ability, requiring more choice about when to use it.  This is a monster, so let's keep it simple and let the DM just use it.




Well I suspect it was a character class ability originally - one from the "Dragon Slayer" class.

I'd like it to be limited in _some_ fashion. If you don't like a penalty or subtracting an attack we could make it X/day.


----------



## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

Of those, I'd prefer a flat -2 penalty like Rapid Shot or TWF.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> Of those, I'd prefer a flat -2 penalty like Rapid Shot or TWF.




No objections to that.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> No objections to that.




freyar, are you OK with this?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> freyar, are you OK with this?




Quiet round these parts, ain't it?


----------



## freyar (Feb 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Quiet round these parts, ain't it?



Heh, been a nutty week for me.  

No, no objection.  So, something like this?

Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at XX DC to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration.  If the Dazzling Display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Heh, been a nutty week for me.
> 
> No, no objection.  So, something like this?
> 
> Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 30 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at XX DC to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration.  If the Dazzling Display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty.




I'm thinking the range should be much longer - 30 feet is almost melee range, and the Slayer's trying to prevent the dragon spell-blasting from a distance. Also, shouldn't it be targeted at a specific dragon, since the original description says "the dragon", not "any dragon"?


----------



## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm thinking the range should be much longer - 30 feet is almost melee range, and the Slayer's trying to prevent the dragon spell-blasting from a distance. Also, shouldn't it be targeted at a specific dragon, since the original description says "the dragon", not "any dragon"?




120 feet?

I'm not bothered by it affecting more than one dragon (it being a visual display, after all), but if you think it's unbalanced, we can make it targeted.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> 120 feet?
> 
> I'm not bothered by it affecting more than one dragon (it being a visual display, after all), but if you think it's unbalanced, we can make it targeted.




I'd prefer it targeted but if you and freyar prefer it multiple I'll go along.

If the Slayer's facing a fight with multiple dragons they'll have other problems as well...


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer it targeted but if you and freyar prefer it multiple I'll go along.
> 
> If the Slayer's facing a fight with multiple dragons they'll have other problems as well...




Ain't that the truth!


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Ain't that the truth!




Shall we leave it to freyar to decide between targeted and area of effect for the Dazzling Display, then?


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shall we leave it to freyar to decide between targeted and area of effect for the Dazzling Display, then?




We shall.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> We shall.




Sitting in the ether.

Twiddling multiple thumbs.

Waiting for Freyar.


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Do you remember freyar?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Do you remember freyar?




Who?


----------



## freyar (Feb 26, 2012)

Sorry folks, been one of those weeks or months or years, whichever. 

I'd go ahead and make it an area, but we could restrict the range a little if you like.  Or limit it to a cone or something.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sorry folks, been one of those weeks or months or years, whichever.
> 
> I'd go ahead and make it an area, but we could restrict the range a little if you like.  Or limit it to a cone or something.




I don't mind much. Shade seems to prefer an area, so I suppose we could humour him just this once.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I don't mind much. Shade seems to prefer an area, so I suppose we could humour him just this once.




I don't feel that strongly about this (say, compared to using Colossal+ for non-epic-dragons or making nonstandard semi-ethereal creatures...)


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> I don't feel that strongly about this (say, compared to using Colossal+ for non-epic-dragons or making nonstandard semi-ethereal creatures...)




Sometimes you're no fun at all. 

It makes little difference to me. I still lean toward single-target, but I won't object to an area.


----------



## freyar (Mar 3, 2012)

How about a 120 ft cone?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about a 120 ft cone?




Why would a dazzling display of weapon skill affect targets in a cone?


----------



## freyar (Mar 5, 2012)

Line of sight, like the beholder's antimagic cone.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Line of sight, like the beholder's antimagic cone.




But that's the _Beholder's_ line-of-sight, not the observers!


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2012)

What's wrong with the occasionally used:  "any dragon within x feet that can see the slayer"?  Thus, it is negated by darkness, total concealment, etc.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> What's wrong with the occasionally used:  "any dragon within x feet that can see the slayer"?  Thus, it is negated by darkness, total concealment, etc.




Nothing that I can see!

Let's use that.

60 foot range, or further than that?


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Nothing that I can see!
> 
> Let's use that.
> 
> 60 foot range, or further than that?




Maybe 120 ft., so he's got a chance to use it before a flyby attack/snatch combo finishes him off?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> Maybe 120 ft., so he's got a chance to use it before a flyby attack/snatch combo finishes him off?




As you like.

Are we doing an "Improved Dazzle" with a longer range and a DC bonus?


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2012)

This works for me.

Let's keep Improved Dazzle in mind, but I'd like to work on variety in this menu first.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> This works for me.
> 
> Let's keep Improved Dazzle in mind, but I'd like to work on variety in this menu first.




Do you have anything particular in mind?


----------



## freyar (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, so far, for the menu, we have:

Breath Evasion (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains evasion (as the rogue class feature) against breath weapons. If the slayer has evasion from another source, its breath evasion becomes increases to improved evasion against breath weapons.

Improved Dragon Defense (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.

Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial attack bonus and does additional damage equal to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer. The attack bonus does not stack with that gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.

---
True Strike (Sp): The undead dragon slayer may use true strike once per day as a move action on any attack against a dragon.

Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 120 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for X rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at XX DC to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration. If the Dazzling Display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty. 


Stuff above the --- line is already in homebrews.  And we still have some variables to fill on the Dazzling Display.  Other suggestions include:
Something like wingbind.
Smite dragon.
We wanted some for casters, too; free metamagic vs dragons was one idea. 
Any thoughts?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Stuff above the --- line is already in homebrews.  And we still have some variables to fill on the Dazzling Display.  Other suggestions include:
> Something like wingbind.
> Smite dragon.
> We wanted some for casters, too; free metamagic vs dragons was one idea.
> Any thoughts?




Wingbind and Smite Dragon are both good.

Free metamagic's alright, but we could do with something a bit more unique too.

Maybe some special spells it can cast spontaneously, which are only useful against Dragons?


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

Perhaps allow it to use spells usually only usable against animals/humanoids/etc. against dragons?   For example, _reduce person _and _hold animal_.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> Perhaps allow it to use spells usually only usable against animals/humanoids/etc. against dragons?   For example, _reduce person _and _hold animal_.




An excellent idea.

We could limit it by school, e.g.:

*Enchant Dragon (Sp):* X/day an undead dragon slayer can alter an Enchantment spell that usually has no effect on dragons, such as _charm person_, so it will affect dragons as if they were the type of creature the spell is most effective against.

*Transmute Dragon (Sp):* As Enchant Dragon (see above), except it alters a Transmutation spell, such as _reduce person,_ so it affect dragons.


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

Cleon said:


> An excellent idea.
> 
> We could limit it by school, e.g.:
> 
> ...




Good call!


----------



## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good call!




Any other ideas?

I'm thinking we should consider abilities by spell school.

So far we've got enhancements for Transformations and Enchantments, but what else can we come up with.

"Locate Dragon" or "Scry Dragon" for the Diviner?


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Any other ideas?
> 
> I'm thinking we should consider abilities by spell school.
> 
> ...




That could work.

Some sort of damage-booster or energy substitution for the Evoker?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> That could work.
> 
> Some sort of damage-booster or energy substitution for the Evoker?




Yeah, not sure about energy substitution per se, since I'd like it to be Dragon specific. Maybe their evocation spells have an additional effect against Dragons.

Alternatively, their Evocation spells do 50% extra force damage against dragons (so a _fireball_ would do half force damage against a Red Dragon, and 150% fire plus 50% force against a White Dragon, due to the former's Fire subtype immunity to fire and the latter's Cold subtype vulnerability to fire.


----------



## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

These are great ideas!  

Before I get back to that, I'm going to try filling in the Dazzling Display variables:
Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. A dragon within 120 ft that views the display (as a gaze attack) must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for 1d4 rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check at DC 30? to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration. If the Dazzling Display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty.


Extra Force (Sp): X times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any evocation spell so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against dragons.  For example, a caster level 10 fireball does 10d6 hp of fire damage and 5d6 additional hp of force damage to dragons in the area.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Extra Force (Sp): X times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any evocation spell so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against dragons.  For example, a caster level 10 fireball does 10d6 hp of fire damage and 5d6 additional hp of force damage to dragons in the area.




Wouldn't "Evoke Force" make more sense, or even "Evoke Anti-Dragon Force" so it has Dragon in the name?

Hmm "Anti-Dragon Evocation" seems a cleaner wording, though.

Also, how does the extra damage stack with Metamagic?

It either stacks...

*[Stacking] Anti-Dragon **Evocation **(Sp):* X times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any  evocation spell they cast so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against  dragons. For example, a caster level 10 _fireball_ does 10d6 hp of  fire  damage, plus an additional 5d6 points of force damage to dragons.  Anti-dragon force damage stacks with Metamagic feats that  increase a spell's damage: e.g. a CL 12 Empowered _flame strike_ would do (12d6 increased by 50%) fire damage, plus an additional 9d6 force damage to dragons.

Or it doesn't stack...

*[Stacking] **Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp):* X times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any  evocation spell they cast so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against  dragons. For example, a caster level 10 _fireball_ does 10d6 hp of fire  damage, plus an additional 5d6 points of force damage to dragons. Anti-dragon force damage does not stack with Metamagic feats that increase a spell's damage: e.g. a CL 12 empowered _flame strike_ would do (12d6 increased by 50%) fire damage, plus an additional 6d6 force damage to dragons.

I prefer the Stacking version.


----------



## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

I prefer it stack, too.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> I prefer it stack, too.




Perhaps we *you* should stick some of this stuff in the Working Draft so we can see where we are.


----------



## freyar (Mar 23, 2012)

We all prefer stacking, but it seems we will have to wait for Shade to update homebrews.

Do you have any other ideas for anti-dragon casting abilities?  Want to flesh out your scrying idea?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> We all prefer stacking, but it seems we will have to wait for Shade to update homebrews.
> 
> Do you have any other ideas for anti-dragon casting abilities?  Want to flesh out your scrying idea?



How about:

*Scry Dragon (Sp):* X times per day, the Undead Dragon Slayer can modify any divination spell so it is especially effective against dragons. The spell gains a +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance and its range increases by 100%. These adjustments stack with spell augmentations from other sources, such as the Spell Penetration or Enlarge Spell metamagic feats.

A spell modified by scry dragon is only capable of detecting dragons. Thus a modified _detect evil_ spell is able to detect evil dragons to a 120 ft. range, but cannot detect evil creatures that are not dragons. Scry Dragon can only modify divination spells that are capable of detecting dragons or phenomena of a draconic nature. It could not modify _locate object_ (since dragons are not objects), but could modify _detect undead_ or _detect thought_ (to detect an undead dragon or a dragon's thoughts).


----------



## freyar (Mar 27, 2012)

That looks good!

Here's another one:

Smite Dragon (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may attempt to smite a dragon with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per HD. If the paladin accidentally smites a non-dragon, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

Want to change the extra damage?  Give extra uses per day based on HD?


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> That looks good!
> 
> Here's another one:
> 
> ...




Didn't we already put some "Smite" type SAs in the draft?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't see one in the homebrews; we've just talked about it.  So, what about the extra damage or extra uses per day?


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## Cleon (Apr 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't see one in the homebrews; we've just talked about it.  So, what about the extra damage or extra uses per day?




I favour an increased damage approach, since it's the best way to finish off a Dragon before it murderizes the Slayer.

(Murderizing being a technical expression, you understand. )


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2012)

Updated, finally!


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated, finally!




I think the SAs' wording needs some slight tweaking: 

*Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex):* Undead dragon slayers gain a bonus equal to  half their favored enemy bonus on caster level checks to overcome the  spell resistance of dragons (this does not stack with other bonuses,  such as from the feat Spell Penetration) as well as the benefits of the Spell Focus feat for all spells cast against dragons. At caster level 17th, an undead  dragon slayer also gains the benefits of the Greater Spell Focus feat for all  spells cast against dragons.

*Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex):* Undead dragon slayers have dragons as  favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability. The bonus is equal to  the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD. An  undead dragon slayers' favored enemy (dragon) ability does not stack with any other favored  enemy ability.

The current Smite Dragon is very weedy (just compare it to the Improved Weapon Throwing) and still has a "paladin" in it.

Indeed, the damage is very weak compared to the Favored Enemy bonus of +1 per HD.

I suggest making this a "Dragon Strike" ability with some different bonuses, such as an improvement to hit. Then add Improved Dragon Strike as an optional extra.

e.g.:

*Dragon Strike (Ex?):* X times a day, as a standard action, an undead dragon  slayer can make a single attack against a dragon with an insight bonus  to  the attack and damage rolls equal to the slayer's Hit Dice (maximum +20). Additionally, a dragon  strike attack is not affected by the miss chance that applies to  attackers trying to strike a concealed target (provided the target is a  dragon).

*Improved Dragon Strike (Ex?):* 3 times a day, as a swift action, an undead dragon  slayer can add an insight bonus equal to their Hit Dice (maximum +20) to  the attack and damage rolls of their next attack against a dragon (if  it is made before the end of the next round). Additionally, a dragon  strike attack is not affected by the miss chance that applies to  attackers trying to strike a concealed target (provided the target is a  dragon).


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2012)

Those edits are ok with me.

So you want to change Smite Dragon (and presumably True Strike) into Dragon Strike?  I suppose that would be ok, but I'm not sure I'd go with two versions.  Just drop the "Improved" off the second one and make it a menu item.

How do we want Wingbind to work?  Just a 1/day SLA like the Draconomicon spell?


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those edits are ok with me.
> 
> So you want to change Smite Dragon (and presumably True Strike) into Dragon Strike?  I suppose that would be ok, but I'm not sure I'd go with two versions.  Just drop the "Improved" off the second one and make it a menu item.
> 
> How do we want Wingbind to work?  Just a 1/day SLA like the Draconomicon spell?




The _wingbind_ spell isn't OGL though, is it? Shouldn't we make it a SA.

Besides, I was imagining it more of a "crippling blow" from a weapon than a spell.

Hmm, or we could make it an effect an Undead Dragon Slayer can add to any attack that uses an attack roll. So you can have an UDS wingbind a dragon using an arrow, axe, or _scorching ray_.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The _wingbind_ spell isn't OGL though, is it? Shouldn't we make it a SA.
> 
> Besides, I was imagining it more of a "crippling blow" from a weapon than a spell.
> 
> Hmm, or we could make it an effect an Undead Dragon Slayer can add to any attack that uses an attack roll. So you can have an UDS wingbind a dragon using an arrow, axe, or _scorching ray_.




Don't forget we're applying this template to spellcasters, too.  I was thinking the more traditional wingbind was a better fit for those guys.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Don't forget we're applying this template to spellcasters, too.  I was thinking the more traditional wingbind was a better fit for those guys.




Well if we let them combine it with one of their ranged attacks then both martial and magical UDS get too use it.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2012)

Well, I was thinking of it as a unique SLA, actually, with maybe tiny variations from the non-OGC spell.  But I don't mind adding it as an effect on a ranged attack.  Do you want to write that up?


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, I was thinking of it as a unique SLA, actually, with maybe tiny variations from the non-OGC spell.  But I don't mind adding it as an effect on a ranged attack.  Do you want to write that up?




No, I'd rather let someone else do some work for a change.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2012)

No books with me, but maybe we can fill in as needed later....

Bind Wings (Su): X/day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to imbue a single ranged attack (including spells) with the ability to bind a dragon's wings.  If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for XdX rounds.  If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability).


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2012)

That looks pretty good!  

The spell allows Reflex negates.  Also...

An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check against a DC equal to the saving throw DC of the spell. Like a wall of force, the web of force is impervious to most attacks: It is immune to damage of all kinds, cannot be burst with a Strength check, and is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. Also like wall of force, the web is immediately destroyed by disintegrate, a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or Mordenkainen's disjunction.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> No books with me, but maybe we can fill in as needed later....
> 
> Bind Wings (Su): X/day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to imbue a single ranged attack (including spells) with the ability to bind a dragon's wings.  If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for XdX rounds.  If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability).




Does this full attack action imbue an attack that takes place in a subsequent round?

Upon reflection, does it have to be a *ranged* attack. Wouldn't an UDS benefit from being able to cripple a dragon's flight with a melee attack to stop it taking off and escaping / outmaneuvering him?

Maybe make it any single attack?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2012)

Any single attack.  No, it doesn't imbue a following round's attack, the full attack action is the imbued attack.  I guess we should spell that out.  And I guess it doesn't have to be ranged.

I don't think it should allow a Ref save if it requires an attack roll (as per usual).  This can help distinguish it from the closed source spell.   What do you think about Escape Artist?  I'm kind of inclined to leave it out.

Bind Wings (Su): X/day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack (including any spell that requires an attack roll) with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for XdX rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability).  The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force.


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Any single attack.  No, it doesn't imbue a following round's attack, the full attack action is the imbued attack.  I guess we should spell that out.  And I guess it doesn't have to be ranged.




How about "an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack imbued with the  ability to bind a dragon's wings. It may imbue any attack it can normally make with a standard action, including any spell that requires an attack roll."?



freyar said:


> I don't think it should allow a Ref save if it requires an attack roll (as per usual).  This can help distinguish it from the closed source spell.   What do you think about Escape Artist?  I'm kind of inclined to leave it out.




I'm leaning towards keeping a saving throw, or maybe a check of some sort to escape the bonds. If it only requires an attack roll it could be used with a touch attack and virtually always bind the targets wings, considering that dragons usually have pathetic touch AC.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2012)

I like "imbued", would definitely like to keep the Escape Artist, and possibly the save.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> I like "imbued", would definitely like to keep the Escape Artist, and possibly the save.




So, a save that can be substituted with an Escape Artist check?


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, a save that can be substituted with an Escape Artist check?




Probably not, as the EA check can be made anytime with the spell, but the save is only to avoid the initial attack.   Upon futher consideration, I'm content with just the EA check to escape.


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Probably not, as the EA check can be made anytime with the spell, but the save is only to avoid the initial attack.   Upon futher consideration, I'm content with just the EA check to escape.




Could we have a Reflex save or Escape Artist check to escape, then?


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2012)

Hmmm.  A Ref save to escape would be ok with me.  Or we could allow a high DC Str check to burst the force net.


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.  A Ref save to escape would be ok with me.  Or we could allow a high DC Str check to burst the force net.




I thought these are supposed to be Unbreakable Force Bonds that the victim needs to wiggle free from?

Besides, I'd rather not have a Strength check, since dragons tend to have very good Str scores.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I thought these are supposed to be Unbreakable Force Bonds that the victim needs to wiggle free from?




That's the way I understood it, hence the Escape Artist check in the spell.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I thought these are supposed to be Unbreakable Force Bonds that the victim needs to wiggle free from?




That's the way I understood it, hence the Escape Artist check in the spell.

I like the EA check alone, since dragons usually have ridiculous saves.


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## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> That's the way I understood it, hence the Escape Artist check in the spell.
> 
> I like the EA check alone, since dragons usually have ridiculous saves.




Yes, but Reflex tends to be their weakest save, since most dragons have Dex 10.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Yes, but Reflex tends to be their weakest save, since most dragons have Dex 10.




The weakest among "awesome" is still great.


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## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> The weakest among "awesome" is still great.




Well, it still sits poorly with me.

Does Freyar still think a Ref save is OK?


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## freyar (May 3, 2012)

It doesn't have to be identical to the spell, which is why I suggested the Str check.  But since you don't like that...

I guess I prefer the Ref save only to avoid, but I don't mind too much either way.  The skill check could also be insanely high; it's just that dragons don't usually invest much in Escape Artist.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> It doesn't have to be identical to the spell, which is why I suggested the Str check.  But since you don't like that...
> 
> I guess I prefer the Ref save only to avoid, but I don't mind too much either way.  The skill check could also be insanely high; it's just that dragons don't usually invest much in Escape Artist.




Yes, I'd be OK with that. Give the DC of the Escape Artist / Reflex check a hefty circumstance bonus. 

For example, masterwork manacles require a DC 35 Escape Artist check. If we set the bonus so a typical 10th level Undead Dragon Slayer's Wingbinding has that DC and even a CR-appropriate dragon (like, say, a Juvenile Red Dragon with a +10 Ref save) would have difficulty making that Ref save.

So, something like 10 plus 1/2 level plus [primary ability] plus a +10 bonus might give the numbers we need. We could have an "Improved Wingbinding" with improved range and DC if that seems inadequate for the big Wyrms.


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## Shade (May 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, something like 10 plus 1/2 level plus [primary ability] plus a +10 bonus might give the numbers we need. We could have an "Improved Wingbinding" with improved range and DC if that seems inadequate for the big Wyrms.




I really don't care for the arbitrary +10.  

Rather than the additional +10 bonus, how about just level (instead of 1/2 level)?  I'd be willing to even go with character level (rather than class level) in this case.


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## Cleon (May 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> I really don't care for the arbitrary +10.
> 
> Rather than the additional +10 bonus, how about just level (instead of 1/2 level)?  I'd be willing to even go with character level (rather than class level) in this case.




That'd be OK by me, except the Undead Dragon Slayer doesn't actually necessarily have levels in a Dragon Slayer class, since it's a template. So, we're talking character level or Hit Dice here.


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## freyar (May 10, 2012)

Total character level (HD) works for me, so 10+HD+Cha then?


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## Shade (May 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Total character level (HD) works for me, so 10+HD+Cha then?




Yes.


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## Cleon (May 12, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes.




Sounds promising. Let's plug that into the SA and see what it looks like.


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## Shade (May 15, 2012)

Bind Wings (Su): X/day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack imbued with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for XdX rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force.  A bound dragon may escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Something like this?

Bind Wings (Su): X/day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to imbue a single attack with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. It may imbue any attack that takes a standard action, including any spell that requires an attack roll.  If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for XdX rounds, unless the dragon makes a DC X Ref save. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force.  The dragon may also escape by making a DC X Escape Artist check.  The DC for the skill check and the save are given by 10+the undead dragon slayer's HD+the undead dragon slayer's Charisma modifier.

Did we ever decide on a duration?  I didn't see one just now.

EDIT: Shade the ninja!


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## Shade (May 15, 2012)

freyar = ninja!


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Did we ever decide on a duration?  I didn't see one just now.




I don't recall us deciding on a duration, no.


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## freyar (May 18, 2012)

1d4 rounds maybe?

The difference between the two versions above is if we want to allow a Ref save to avoid.  Since it's part of the attack, I'd be fine with leaving it off, but it's not a big deal to me.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> 1d4 rounds maybe?
> 
> The difference between the two versions above is if we want to allow a Ref save to avoid.  Since it's part of the attack, I'd be fine with leaving it off, but it's not a big deal to me.




I wouldn't mind making the duration a bit longer, such as 1d6 or 2d4 rounds.


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## freyar (May 21, 2012)

1d6 round works.

So, do we want a Ref save to avoid on the initial binding attack?


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## Shade (May 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> 1d6 round works.
> 
> So, do we want a Ref save to avoid on the initial binding attack?




My vote is "no", but I'm not terribly nonplussed if you both want it.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> My vote is "no", but I'm not terribly nonplussed if you both want it.




I suppose I could give up the Reflex save since it requires an attack roll, but it'll be a bit grudgingly.


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## freyar (May 24, 2012)

Based on the precedent that spells with attack rolls usually don't allow saves, I'd slightly prefer dropping the Ref save, but it's not a big deal.  I think we're pretty well split.

Let's say we drop the Ref save.  Give the slayers more weapons.   We can limit the X/day more to make up for it.  Maybe just 1/day.


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## Cleon (May 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Based on the precedent that spells with attack rolls usually don't allow saves, I'd slightly prefer dropping the Ref save, but it's not a big deal.  I think we're pretty well split.
> 
> Let's say we drop the Ref save.  Give the slayers more weapons.   We can limit the X/day more to make up for it.  Maybe just 1/day.




Very well.


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## freyar (May 29, 2012)

Alright, then.

Bind Wings (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack imbued with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for 1d6 rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force. A bound dragon may escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).


Whew, that's done.  What menu item is next?


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## Shade (May 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Alright, then.
> 
> Bind Wings (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack imbued with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for 1d6 rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force. A bound dragon may escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).




Looks good.  Updated.



freyar said:


> Whew, that's done.  What menu item is next?




Anti-Dragon Evocation, Dazzling Display, Improved Dazzling Display, and Scry Dragon all still have X's or ?'s.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.
> 
> Anti-Dragon Evocation, Dazzling Display, Improved Dazzling Display, and Scry Dragon all still have X's or ?'s.




Might as well go through them alphabetically.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2012)

3/day on the evocation and scry?
Dazzling Display: 120 ft, 1d6 rounds, DC 40?? Concentration check?  Let's figure out the improved version once we've settled on those numbers.  I've tried to aim the DC so it's somewhat useful vs an adult or mature adult.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> 3/day on the evocation and scry?
> Dazzling Display: 120 ft, 1d6 rounds, DC 40?? Concentration check?  Let's figure out the improved version once we've settled on those numbers.  I've tried to aim the DC so it's somewhat useful vs an adult or mature adult.




3/day is fine for the usage, but why are you set on making it a fixed DC?

Didn't we settle on the DC being 10 + HD + Cha modifier?


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2012)

Nah, I don't actually care.  I was just picking a number.

We did 10+HD+Cha for the wing bind to make it effective.  But I'd rather go back to the standard 10+HD/2+key stat most of the time, I guess.  Do we really want to make all the DCs nonstandard?  EDIT: note also that I only did that for the Concentration check, not the Fort save.  Lots of monsters have abilities opposed by flat skill check DCs.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Nah, I don't actually care.  I was just picking a number.
> 
> We did 10+HD+Cha for the wing bind to make it effective.  But I'd rather go back to the standard 10+HD/2+key stat most of the time, I guess.  Do we really want to make all the DCs nonstandard?  EDIT: note also that I only did that for the Concentration check, not the Fort save.  Lots of monsters have abilities opposed by flat skill check DCs.




Well, if we worried about making the DC high enough to be effective for Wing Bind, doesn't the same concern apply to the UDS's other special attacks?


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2012)

I guess I'd rather have a flat DC for most of the skill checks.  Or maybe just not allow them.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> I guess I'd rather have a flat DC for most of the skill checks.  Or maybe just not allow them.




I have a suspicion we'd better wait for Shade before we start arguing in circles about this.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2012)

Arise thread!  I think we'd better finish this one, since waiting's not going to do us any good.   I'll get back to conversion posts tomorrow (had Thanksgiving here today), but I noticed this as a "current" conversion still and realized we'd forgotten about it.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Arise thread!  I think we'd better finish this one, since waiting's not going to do us any good.   I'll get back to conversion posts tomorrow (had Thanksgiving here today), but I noticed this as a "current" conversion still and realized we'd forgotten about it.




Yes, I guess we'd better start a Working Draft with what we've got so far, since we still don't have access to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2012)

*Undead Dragon Slayer*

*Undead Dragon Slayer (template)*

_A horrifying undead humanoid, little more than a skeleton held together by rotting flesh. Lifeless eyes peer from the sockets of its skull-like face. Its weapons and armor glow with a supernatural light and are decorated with a dragon-scale design and images of dragons or draconic body parts bearing appalling wounds.
_

Undead dragon slayers are creatures animated by an unquenchable urge to kill dragons. Most are created by evil dragon-fighting cults, but a few have dragged themselves back from the dead through their undying hatred of dragonkind. Those undead dragon slayers created by necromantic rites must obey the spellcasters who ushered them into unlife.

These undead are at least as intelligent and powerful as they were in life and have additional supernatural powers tuned to slaughtering dragons. Killing dragons gives an undead dragon slayer the energy to maintain its unnatural existence, and they fall back into death if this energy runs out (as detailed in their Draconic Slaughter).

Undead dragon slayers tend to hunt in well-coordinated teams with other undead, the better to overcome their powerful dragon prey. As well as other undead dragon slayers, they often fight alongside skeletal warriors; often the reanimated "lesser heroes" of a dragon-fighting cult. Ironically, they also associate with undead dragons, as their lust to kill only applies to living dragons. Some undead dragon slayers derive perverse amusement from turning a dragon they have slain into a dracolich or zombie and using this undead slave to slay that dragon's kin.

A typical undead dragon slayer stands 6 to 7 feet tall and weighs about 250 pounds. They can speak whatever languages they knew in life, which usually includes Common and Draconic. 


*Creating an Undead Dragon Slayer*
“Undead Dragon Slayer” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) that has a base attack bonus of +9 or higher or a caster level of 9th or higher.

An undead dragon slayer has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Armor Class: An undead dragon slayer has a +6 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better.

Special Attacks: An undead dragon slayer retains the base creature's special attacks and gains those described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.

Anti-Dragon Casting (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a bonus equal to half their favored enemy bonus on caster level checks to overcome the spell resistance of dragons (this does not stack with other bonuses, such as from Spell Penetration) as well as the effects of Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons. At caster level 17th, an undead dragon slayer also gains the effects of Greater Spell Focus for all spells cast against dragons.

Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex): Undead dragon slayers have dragons as favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability. The bonus is equal to the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD. An undead dragon slayer's favored enemy (dragon) ability does not stack with any other favored enemy ability.

Weapon Throwing (Ex): Undead dragon slayers can throw any melee weapon or throwing weapon at a dragon as a standard action. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +1 racial attack bonus.

Special Qualities: An undead dragon slayer retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains those described below.

Breath Evasion (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains evasion (as the rogue class feature) against breath weapons. If the slayer has evasion from another source, its breath evasion becomes improved evasion against breath weapons.

Damage Reduction (Su): An undead dragon slayer gains damage reduction 5/-.

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or be immediately destroyed. The save must be repeated each day, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success, until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon or is destroyed. 

Dragon Defense (Ex): Undead dragon slayers gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons.

Immunity to Turning and Rebuking (Ex): An undead dragon slayer cannot be turned, rebuked, commanded, or destroyed by the turn/rebuke undead class feature.

Spell Resistance (Ex): An undead dragon slayer has spell resistance equal to its HD + 13.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): An undead dragon slayer gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier × its Hit Dice.

*Additional Special Abilities*
An undead dragon slayer may select from the following special abilities.  It gains one special ability per two points of BAB or caster level (whichever is higher), rounded down.

Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp): 3 times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any evocation spell they cast so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against dragons. For example, a caster level 10 fireball does 10d6 hp of fire damage, plus an additional 5d6 points of force damage to dragons. Anti-dragon force damage stacks with Metamagic feats that increase a spell's damage: e.g. a CL 12 Empowered flame strike would do (12d6 increased by 50%) fire damage, plus an additional 9d6 force damage to dragons.

Bind Wings (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a standard action to make a single attack imbued with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for 1d6 rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force. A bound dragon may escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).

Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. Any dragon within 120 feet that can see the slayer must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for 1d6 rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier). If the dazzling display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty.

Enchant Dragon (Sp): 3/day an undead dragon slayer can alter an Enchantment spell that usually has no effect on dragons, such as charm person, so it will affect dragons as if they were the type of creature the spell is most effective against.

Enhanced Breath Evasion (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains improved evasion (as the rogue class feature) against breath weapons.

Scry Dragon (Sp): 3 times per day, the Undead Dragon Slayer can modify any divination spell so it is especially effective against dragons. The spell gains a +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance and its range increases by 100%. These adjustments stack with spell augmentations from other sources, such as the Spell Penetration or Enlarge Spell metamagic feats.

A spell modified by scry dragon is only capable of detecting dragons. Thus a modified detect evil spell is able to detect evil dragons to a 120 ft. range, but cannot detect evil creatures that are not dragons. Scry Dragon can only modify divination spells that are capable of detecting dragons or phenomena of a draconic nature. It could not modify locate object (since dragons are not objects), but could modify detect undead or detect thought (to detect an undead dragon or a dragon's thoughts).

Smite Dragon (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may attempt to smite a dragon with one normal melee attack. The slayer adds its Charisma bonus (if any) to its attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per HD. If the undead dragon slayer accidentally smites a non-dragon, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

Stifle Breath (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a standard action to make a single attack with the ability to disable a dragon's breath weapon. If this attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, it prevents the dragon using any breath weapon it has for 1d6 rounds. The effects of stifle breath can be cancelled by any power that removes exhaustion.

Transmute Dragon (Sp): As Enchant Dragon (see above), except it alters a Transmutation spell, such as reduce person, so it affect dragons.

True Strike (Sp): The undead dragon slayer may use true strike once per day as a move action on any attack against a dragon.

*Improved Additional Special Abilities*
The undead dragon slayer may choose the following special abilities if it has a BAB of at least +12 or a caster level of at least 12th. To choose an improved ability, the undead dragon slayer must already possess the corresponding special ability given above.

Improved Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp): The undead dragon slayer's Anti-Dragon Evocation does +100% extra force damage instead of +50%.

Improved Dazzling Display (Su): The undead dragon slayer may make a dazzling display as part of a standard attack action or a full attack action, and the dazzling display DC gains a +2 enhancement bonus (see Dazzling Display above). To select this special ability, the undead dragon slayer must already have the Dazzling Display special attack.

Improved Dragon Defense (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.

Improved Enchant Dragon (Sp): When the undead dragon slayer uses its Enchant Dragon ability the Enchantment spell gains a +1 bonus to DC and a +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance.

Improved Scry Dragon (Sp): When the undead dragon slayer uses its Scry Dragon ability the Divination spell has a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance and its range increases by 200% (this includes the bonuses from Scry Dragon).

Improved Transmute Dragon (Sp): As Improved Enchant Dragon (see above), except it alters a Transmutation spell.

Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): The undead dragon slayer can throw any melee weapon or throwing weapon at a dragon as a standard action. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial attack bonus and does additional damage equal to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer. The attack bonus does not stack with that gained from the Weapon Throwing ability. 



Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. Being undead, an undead dragon slayer has no Constitution score.

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature
Organization: Solitary, hunt (2-4), company (1-4 plus 1-8 skeleton warriors), flight (1-4 plus 1 dracolich), or squadron (2-4 plus 1 dracolich and 2-12 skeleton warriors and 1-6 young adult red dragon skeletons or zombie wyverns) 
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.
Treasure: Standard (including possessions appropriate for its character level).
Alignment: Any nongood.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4.


*SAMPLE CREATURE*
*Human Undead Dragon Slayer Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8* 
*Undead (augmented humanoid)* 
*Hit Dice:* 13d12+78 (162 hp)  
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
*Armor Class:* 22 (+10 _+2 mithral full plate_, +1 Dex, +1 deflection), touch 12, flat-footed 21
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +13/+18
*Attack:* _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +20 melee (2d6+8/17-20) or _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str) +15 ranged (1d8+6/×3)
*Full Attack:* _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+8/17-20) or _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str) +15/+10/+5 ranged (1d8+6/×3) 
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.  
*Special Attacks:* anti-dragon casting, bind wings, command undead, dazzling display, favored enemy (dragon), favored enemy (magical beast), improved weapon throwing, smite dragon, smite good 3/day, sneak attack +2d6, spells, true strike, weapon throwing
*Special Qualities:* aura of despair, aura of evil, breath evasion, damage reduction 5/-, dark blessing, detect good, draconic slaughter, dragon defense, enhanced breath evasion, fiendish servant (heavy warhorse), immunity to turning and rebuking, lay on hands, poison use, spell resistance 26, unholy toughness, wild empathy
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +12  
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 12, Con -, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 22  
*Skills:* Concentration +16, Knowledge (religion) +7, Handle Animal +13, Heal +9, Hide +4* (+6 without armor penalty), Listen +13 (+19 vs dragons), Ride +19, Spot +13 (+19 vs dragons), Survival +5 (+11 tracking dragons)
*Feats:* Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Sunder, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Track(B), Two-Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus (greatsword) 
*Environment:* Any, usually same as base creature
*Organization:* Solitary, hunt (2-4), company (1-4 plus 1-8 skeleton warriors), flight  (1-4 plus 1 dracolich), or squadron (2-4 plus 1 dracolich and 2-12  skeleton warriors and 1-6 young adult red dragon skeletons or zombie wyverns)
*Challenge Rating:* 14
*Treasure:* Standard (see possessions)
*Alignment:* Any evil
*Advancement:* by character class 
*Level Adjustment:* +4

*CHANGES WHEN FIGHTING A DRAGON*
*Armor Class:* 24 (+10 _+2 mithral full plate_, +1 Dex, +1 deflection, +2 dodge), touch 14, flat-footed 21
*Attack:* _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +22 melee (4d6+16/17-20) or _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str) +15 ranged (1d8+12/×3)
*Full Attack:* +1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword +22/+17/+12 melee (4d6+16/17-20) or +1 composite longbow (+5 Str) +15/+10/+5 ranged (1d8+12/×3) or +1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword +22 ranged (11d6+13/17-20)
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +12  


The undead dragon slayer presented here is a former human with the following base ability scores: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16. 

COMBAT

Given time to prepare for battle with a dragon, this undead dragon slayer enhances its combat abilities with its spells, starting with _freedom of movement_ and _protection from energy_.  The undead dragon slayer opens combat with a bind wings attack against a single dragon but begins with a dazzling display when fighting multiple dragons.  During combat, it uses its sneak attack whenever possible and its smite dragon and true strike abilities opportunistically.  If a moderately weakened dragon attempts escape, the undead dragon slayer will throw its greatsword as a way to finish the dragon off.  It typically uses its _boots of speed_ early in combat, especially against particularly tough or multiple foes.

*Spells* 3/2/1/1 (save DC 12 plus spell level)

4th—_freedom of movement_
3rd—_protection from energy_
2nd—_bull's strength, inflict moderate wounds_
1st—_cause fear, corrupt weapon, inflict light wounds_

*Equipment:* _+2 mithral full plate_, _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_, _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str), 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows, 10 adamantine arrows, _boots of speed_, _ring of protection +1_, _cloak of resistance +1_, _wand of inflict light wounds_, 134 gp

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #205 (1994).


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2012)

That's just a copy of Shade's homebrew draft. 

I think we were arguing discussing how to set the DCs for dragons to resist these abilities.


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's just a copy of Shade's homebrew draft.
> 
> I think we were arguing discussing how to set the DCs for dragons to resist these abilities.




I thought we'd decided to use HD plus Cha with an additional flat bonus.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2012)

We'd decided that for bind wings, but we were still working that out for everything else.  I'd probably prefer a flat DC for some of them; however, in the interest of getting this started again, I'll yield.

We seem to have agreed on 3/day usage for the evocation and scrying.  I'd suggested 120 ft, 1d6 rounds for Dazzling Display.  Thoughts?


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> We'd decided that for bind wings, but we were still working that out for everything else.  I'd probably prefer a flat DC for some of them; however, in the interest of getting this started again, I'll yield.




Which ones do you prefer a flat DC for? I think they all look like level/HD dependent DCs.



freyar said:


> We seem to have agreed on 3/day usage for the evocation and scrying.  I'd suggested 120 ft, 1d6 rounds for Dazzling Display.  Thoughts?




I think that's OK.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2012)

No, I see your point about the nonstandard 10+HD+ability modifier.  The exception-based design just gives me the willies.

OK, I will update that DC for dazzling display along with the per day usage and range, etc, for dazzling display (also) soon.  Before, though, are we agreed to add unholy toughness and DR as in red?  Any suggestions for DR?  Maybe 10/- but not have its weapons count as anything in particular?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> No, I see your point about the nonstandard 10+HD+ability modifier.  The exception-based design just gives me the willies.




If we're giving them non-standard DCs we might as well use the same approach for all of them. It'll give our exception-based design fewer exceptions.



freyar said:


> OK, I will update that DC for dazzling display along with the per day usage and range, etc, for dazzling display (also) soon.  Before, though, are we agreed to add unholy toughness and DR as in red?  Any suggestions for DR?  Maybe 10/- but not have its weapons count as anything in particular?




DR 10/-- seems a bit high, but I guess they need a good DC to be of any use against a dragon. Unless you want them to have a higher DC against dragons?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2012)

Yes, I agree we might as well take the same approach everywhere.

I don't like the idea of DR depending on the type of critter that attacks it.  Just seems weird (and contrary to the spirit of DR).  We could go DR 5/- if you prefer.

Do you agree to Unholy Toughness?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't like the idea of DR depending on the type of critter that attacks it.  Just seems weird (and contrary to the spirit of DR).  We could go DR 5/- if you prefer.




Yes, I'm not _that_ keen on the idea of type-specific DC either. We could give it some kind of "Parry Dragon" special ability, but I think it's got more than enough special abilities as it is!

DR 5 should be enough.



freyar said:


> Do you agree to Unholy Toughness?




That's one it definitely needs. Indeed, most Undead should get it as standard!


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## freyar (Nov 6, 2012)

Updated.

Should we work out Improved Dazzling Display now?  Maybe the undead dragon slayer can use it as a move action?  Or do you prefer to boost the range and DC?  Another option is to have it do more than dazzle the dragon.  Thoughts?


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## Cleon (Nov 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Updated.
> 
> Should we work out Improved Dazzling Display now?  Maybe the undead dragon slayer can use it as a move action?  Or do you prefer to boost the range and DC?  Another option is to have it do more than dazzle the dragon.  Thoughts?




That's not much use, to be honest, since it can make it as part of a full attack action. It'll almost always be better off Full-Attacking AND Dazzling.

I suggest allowing it to Dazzle as a free action when it makes a standard attack, give it a bonus to the Dazzle DC, or both.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2012)

> I suggest allowing it to Dazzle as a free action when it makes a standard attack, give it a bonus to the Dazzle DC, or both.




OK, this!

Improved Dazzling Display (Su): The undead dragon slayer may make a dazzling display as part of a standard attack action or a full attack action, and the dazzling display DC gains a +2 enhancement bonus (see Dazzling Display above).  To select this special ability, the undead dragon slayer must already have the Dazzling Display special attack.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, this!
> 
> Improved Dazzling Display (Su): The undead dragon slayer may make a dazzling display as part of a standard attack action or a full attack action, and the dazzling display DC gains a +2 enhancement bonus (see Dazzling Display above).  To select this special ability, the undead dragon slayer must already have the Dazzling Display special attack.




That'll do.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2012)

Updated.

Any other possible Additional Special Abilities?


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Updated.
> 
> Any other possible Additional Special Abilities?




Well it'll almost always be possible to add special abilities, the more germane question is do we want to?

How are we for spellcaster-knight special abilities? Do we have enough "Improved" versions of those?


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2012)

It's hard to add any if we can't think of them!   I honestly can't think of much else we could do.  Maybe something allowing Spell Penetration to stack with Anti-Dragon Casting?


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> It's hard to add any if we can't think of them!   I honestly can't think of much else we could do.  Maybe something allowing Spell Penetration to stack with Anti-Dragon Casting?




Well it's got Anti-Dragon Casting, Anti-Dragon Evocation, Enchant Dragon, Scry Dragon, Transmute Dragon as "dragonslayer spell abilities", we just need Improved versions of those.

Hold on, where's its "Enchant Dragon" additional ability vanished to?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2012)

Enchant Dragon never seemed to make it to homebrews.  I've added it at 3/day.  Updated.

The question is which of those can we improve without being boring?   I think there are one or two easy improvements to Anti-Dragon Casting, but I'm not so sure about some of the others.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Enchant Dragon never seemed to make it to homebrews.  I've added it at 3/day.  Updated.
> 
> The question is which of those can we improve without being boring?   I think there are one or two easy improvements to Anti-Dragon Casting, but I'm not so sure about some of the others.




Boring becomes interesting if it helps you win a fight!

I'd leave off adding an "Improved Anti-Dragon Casting" give it boosted forms of the Metamagic-like special abilities - e.g. a +1 or +2 bonus to the DC for Enchant/Transmute Dragon, a similar bonus to the spell penetration checks for Scry Dragon, and increasing the Evocation's force damage bonus to +100% or so.

We probably need to impose some prereqs to the Improved abilities, so it just doesn't select Improved versions of all the combat spell options as its first picks.


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2012)

Hmmm.  Give them a minimum BAB/caster level of 11 or 13 or something?  Should we do the same for Improved Dazzling Display?


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.  Give them a minimum BAB/caster level of 11 or 13 or something?  Should we do the same for Improved Dazzling Display?




Yes.

It'll be simplest if we separate out the "Improved Options" from the "Standard Options" and give all of the former the same BAB/CL minimum.

Hmm, or we could do it like a rogue, and give them one "special option" at level X, plus an additional one every Y levels?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2012)

Well, we kind of are following the rogue with 4? special abilities when taking the template plus 1 per +X in BAB/CL.  So it seems easiest to just add a BAB/CL minimum to the improved options. If you want to separate them out later, that would be ok.  I think I'd set the minimum at 13.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, we kind of are following the rogue with 4? special abilities when taking the template plus 1 per +X in BAB/CL.  So it seems easiest to just add a BAB/CL minimum to the improved options. If you want to separate them out later, that would be ok.  I think I'd set the minimum at 13.




I don't much mind either way, it just seemed simpler to separate them into "Basic" and "Improved" Additional Special Abilities rather than setting a BAB/CL for every ability. Still, if you prefer the latter I'll go along with it.

Although I am wondering whether we're giving them too many Additional Special Abilities.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2012)

Separating them is fine if you prefer.  Something like this?

Additional Special Abilities
An undead dragon slayer may select [any 4?] of the following special abilities. 

Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp): 3 times per day, an undead dragon slayer may alter any evocation spell they cast so that it does an extra 50% of force damage against dragons. For example, a caster level 10 fireball does 10d6 hp of fire damage, plus an additional 5d6 points of force damage to dragons. Anti-dragon force damage stacks with Metamagic feats that increase a spell's damage: e.g. a CL 12 Empowered flame strike would do (12d6 increased by 50%) fire damage, plus an additional 9d6 force damage to dragons.

Bind Wings (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full attack action to make a single attack imbued with the ability to bind a dragon's wings. If the attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, bands of force wrap around the dragon, preventing flight for 1d6 rounds. If the dragon is in flight at the time that this ability takes effect, the dragon falls immediately, taking falling damage (unless prevented by a feather fall spell or similar ability). The bands of force are immune to damage and cannot be burst by Strength checks, but they can be destroyed by any effect that can destroy a wall of force. A bound dragon may escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).

Dazzling Display (Su): As a standard action or part of a full attack action, an undead dragon slayer may make a series of complicated motions with its weapons which befuddles any dragon that sees it. Any dragon within 120 feet that can see the slayer must make a Fortitude save or become dazzled for 1d6 rounds. In addition, the dragon must make a Concentration check to cast any spell, use a spell-like ability, or maintain a spell that requires Concentration (DC equals 10 + undead dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier). If the dazzling display is part of a full attack action, all attacks take a -2 attack penalty.

Enchant Dragon (Sp): 3/day an undead dragon slayer can alter an Enchantment spell that usually has no effect on dragons, such as charm person, so it will affect dragons as if they were the type of creature the spell is most effective against.

Improved Breath Evasion (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains improved evasion (as the rogue class feature) against breath weapons.

Scry Dragon (Sp): 3 times per day, the Undead Dragon Slayer can modify any divination spell so it is especially effective against dragons. The spell gains a +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance and its range increases by 100%. These adjustments stack with spell augmentations from other sources, such as the Spell Penetration or Enlarge Spell metamagic feats.

A spell modified by scry dragon is only capable of detecting dragons. Thus a modified detect evil spell is able to detect evil dragons to a 120 ft. range, but cannot detect evil creatures that are not dragons. Scry Dragon can only modify divination spells that are capable of detecting dragons or phenomena of a draconic nature. It could not modify locate object (since dragons are not objects), but could modify detect undead or detect thought (to detect an undead dragon or a dragon's thoughts).

Smite Dragon (Su): Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may attempt to smite a dragon with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per HD. If the paladin accidentally smites a non-dragon, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

Transmute Dragon (Sp): As Enchant Dragon (see above), except it alters a Transmutation spell, such as reduce person, so it affect dragons.

True Strike (Sp): The undead dragon slayer may use true strike once per day as a move action on any attack against a dragon.

*Improved Additional Special Abilities*
For every 2 points of BAB above +11 or 2 levels of caster level above 11th, the undead dragon slayer may choose one of the following special abilities (or one of the "additional special abilities" listed above).  To choose an improved ability, the undead dragon slayer must already possess the corresponding special ability given above.

Improved Dazzling Display (Su): The undead dragon slayer may make a dazzling display as part of a standard attack action or a full attack action, and the dazzling display DC gains a +2 enhancement bonus (see Dazzling Display above). To select this special ability, the undead dragon slayer must already have the Dazzling Display special attack.

Improved Dragon Defense (Ex): The undead dragon slayer gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.

Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex): An undead dragon slayer can throw any weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial attack bonus and does additional damage equal to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 HD of the undead dragon slayer. The attack bonus does not stack with that gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Separating them is fine if you prefer.  Something like this?
> 
> Additional Special Abilities
> An undead dragon slayer may select [any 4?] of the following special abilities.
> ...




Looks pretty good, except that wording suggests casters get additional special abilities from their BAB *and* their CL.

So, a fighter would get +1 at levels 13/15/17/19th, while a cleric would get +1 at levels 13/15/17/18/19/20 (with the 18th and 20th level ones due to gaining +13 BAB and +15 BAB.

Also, caster levels don't stop progressing with level increases  (assuming the DM is using the Epic Rules) while BAB tops off at 20th  level, so a "Cleric-progression" UDS will add another SA at 21st level and every two levels thereafter from its higher CL.

Maybe we should just base it off levels/hit dice to even the playing field?


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2012)

I'd get on board with that except that the template prereq is in terms of BAB or CL (since HD prereqs are considered improper).  So the entry into the template isn't at a set HD.  Which means an undead dragon slayer may not get the extra abilities after the same amount of advancement for all classes.  Well, every odd HD starting at 13HD is probably ok, I suppose.


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'd get on board with that except that the template prereq is in terms of BAB or CL (since HD prereqs are considered improper).  So the entry into the template isn't at a set HD.  Which means an undead dragon slayer may not get the extra abilities after the same amount of advancement for all classes.  Well, every odd HD starting at 13HD is probably ok, I suppose.




It'd be easier to give it a number of special abilities equal to half its BAB or CL, whichever is higher, and say it can pick Improved SAs once it gets a BAB/CL of +12/12th or +14/14th.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2012)

That'll work.  Should we update with that and call it a day on the special abilities?


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll work.  Should we update with that and call it a day on the special abilities?




That's fine by me. We've already spent *ages* on this thing.

You're handling the Working Draft aren't you. I believe (or should that be *hope*) that we're almost done with the template.


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2013)

Well, I felt like I needed to do one or two of the working drafts. 

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, I felt like I needed to do one or two of the working drafts.
> 
> Updated.




The _Improved Breath Evasion_ hasn't been moved to the *Improved Additional Special Abilities* section and it's missing the Improved Metamagic feats.

e.g.:

*Improved Additional Special Abilities*
The undead dragon slayer may choose the following special abilities if  it has a BAB of at least +12 or a caster level of at least 12th. To  choose an improved ability, the undead dragon slayer must already  possess the corresponding special ability given above.

_Improved Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp):_ The undead dragon slayer's Anti-Dragon Evocation does +100% extra force damage instead of +50%.

_Improved Breath Evasion (Ex):_ The undead dragon slayer gains improved  evasion (as the rogue class feature) against breath weapons.

_Improved Dazzling Display (Su):_ The undead dragon slayer may make a  dazzling display as part of a standard attack action or a full attack  action, and the dazzling display DC gains a +2 enhancement bonus (see  Dazzling Display above). To select this special ability, the undead  dragon slayer must already have the Dazzling Display special attack.

_Improved Dragon Defense (Ex):_ The undead dragon slayer gains an  additional +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves against  attacks made by dragons, which stacks with Dragon Defense.

_Improved Enchant Dragon (Sp):_ When the undead dragon slayer uses its Enchant Dragon ability the Enchantment spell gains a +1 bonus to DC and a +1 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance.

_Improved Scry Dragon (Sp):_ When the undead dragon slayer uses its Scry Dragon ability the Divination spell has a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome a dragon's spell resistance and its range increases by 200% (this includes the bonuses from Scry Dragon).

_Improved Transmute Dragon (Sp):_ As Improved Enchant Dragon (see above), except it alters a  Transmutation spell.

_Improved Weapon Throwing (Ex):_ An undead dragon slayer can throw any  weapon as an attack against a dragon. The attack does not take any  penalties for being an improvised weapon but instead gains a +4 racial  attack bonus and does additional damage equal to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 HD  of the undead dragon slayer. The attack bonus does not stack with that  gained from the Weapon Throwing ability.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2013)

Weird, I thought I got those.  Except for Improved Breath Evasion. I thought that one, while called "Improved," didn't need the higher BAB/CL since it is an improved version of an SQ every undead dragon slayer gets, not an improved version of one that has to be selected.  Does that make sense?

Updated with the improved magic stuff, but not the Improved Breath Evasion move yet.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2013)

freyar said:


> Weird, I thought I got those.  Except for Improved Breath Evasion. I thought that one, while called "Improved," didn't need the higher BAB/CL since it is an improved version of an SQ every undead dragon slayer gets, not an improved version of one that has to be selected.  Does that make sense?



  Come to think of it, yes that does make sense. Better return/keep it to the standard additional abilities.  We could rename it "Enhanced Breath Evasion", if you think that'd reduce the confusion.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2013)

Calling it "Enhanced" is a good idea.  And updated. 

Anything you want to do with skills or feats?


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2013)

freyar said:


> Calling it "Enhanced" is a good idea.  And updated.
> 
> Anything you want to do with skills or feats?




Their special abilities already give them some feat-like perks and favoured enemy skill bonuses against dragons, I'm not sure they need any more.

Did you have anything particular in mind?


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2013)

Nothing specific about skills and feats, but I figured I'd ask.

Ready for CR?  Seems like maybe a table based on BAB/CL.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> Nothing specific about skills and feats, but I figured I'd ask.




Fine by me. It'll help us crawl towards completing this monster.



freyar said:


> Ready for CR?  Seems like maybe a table based on BAB/CL.




I'm thinking a flat +X CR might be OK. Their special abilities do have a jump up in power a bit at BAB/CL of 12+ when they get the improved powers, but since most of them only work against Dragons that doesn't make much difference to their general-purpose power level.

I could see them having a ECL bonus if they're fighting a party of PC half-dragons, but generally they are less of a threat than a Death Knight of the same character levels. 

Are they _that_ much tougher than, say, a Fiend Knight?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2013)

Hmmm, it's a little better than the fiend knight but maybe not enough for a full +1 CR boost.  What do you think, CR +1 or CR +2?  I think I lean toward CR +1 but a considerably larger LA.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, it's a little better than the fiend knight but maybe not enough for a full +1 CR boost.  What do you think, CR +1 or CR +2?  I think I lean toward CR +1 but a considerably larger LA.




Yes, that'd work. Most players would only want to become one if they're expecting to fight a *lot* of dragons.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, I'm not much good at LA estimation, but I'd guess at probably +3 or +4.  Let me know what you think, and I'll update this thing.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm not much good at LA estimation, but I'd guess at probably +3 or +4.  Let me know what you think, and I'll update this thing.




Well I'm not much cop at estimating Level Adjustment either, plus it's a pretty useless metric.

I'd err on the side of making it higher, since any PC who willingly stays an Undead Dragon Slayer is probably intending to slay a lot of dragons.


I'd be happy making them "—", but if we do give it an LA I'd guesstimate them at +4 or +5. That suggests we'll settle on LA +4 - That's the same as a Lich, which they're roughly in the same ballpark with as far as their combat abilities goes. They don't have as generally potent abilities as a Vampire (LA +6). Their lack of a Lich's phylactery or a Vampire's fast healing should lower the LA a bit, since it makes them significantly easier to destroy "permanently".


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2013)

OK, Updated with no skills, no feats, CR +1, and LA +4.

Org: Solitary or party (1 plus 1d6 characters of varying class levels)?
Treasure: double standard         (that just feels right)


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, Updated with no skills, no feats, CR +1, and LA +4.
> 
> Org: Solitary or party (1 plus 1d6 characters of varying class levels)?
> Treasure: double standard         (that just feels right)




The original had "No Appearing: 1 or 1-4" and that they're sometimes encountered in the company of skeleton warriors and dracoliches.

We should use that in the Org.

They also have "Treasure: Nil", which is contrary to your preferred Double Treasure. While I don't mind giving them some random loot, if we just let them have level-appropriate NPC gear that could be valuable enough in itself.
Org: Solitary or party (1-4 plus


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2013)

Treasure: Gear   ---- Would that work for you?

Why on earth would these hang out with dracoliches?  Wouldn't they want to destroy the evil draconic beasties?

Org: Solitary, party (1-4 plus 1d6 characters of varying class levels), or hunt (1-4 plus XXX skeletal warriors)?

Do we know which skeletal warriors these are?  I feel like there are several critters with similar names to that.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> Treasure: Gear   ---- Would that work for you?




Yes, that'd work.



freyar said:


> Why on earth would these hang out with dracoliches?  Wouldn't they want to destroy the evil draconic beasties?




*Undead Dragon Slayers:* "_The only good dragon is a dead dragon_."

*Dragotha:* "_I'm already dead_."

*Undead Dragon Slayers:* "_Buddy!_"

More seriously, Undead Dragon Slayers want to kill creatures with the Dragon type. 

A Dracolich is an Undead, not a Dragon.



freyar said:


> Org: Solitary, party (1-4 plus 1d6 characters of varying class levels), or hunt (1-4 plus XXX skeletal warriors)?




I'm still unfond of the non-undead "characters of varying class levels" and I think we need a Dracolich in there.



freyar said:


> Do we know which skeletal warriors these are?  I feel like there are several critters with similar names to that.




Since the original stats are in a 2nd edition AD&D Dragon article from 1994, I'd assume the skeleton warriors are the 2E version from the Monstrous Manual (1993) and MC4 (1990) which are almost identical. They're also pretty much the same as the 1E Fiend Folio version.

The *Creature Catalog conversion* is pretty good.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2013)

Dracoliches have the Undead type, but they're Augmented Dragons.  It just doesn't make much sense, and there's no reasoning for it in the original text.  On the other hand, undead dragon slayers could very well be allied with a character party if out hunting dragons.  I suppose we could drop that since "Solitary" covers meeting the PCs and hooking up, if it's a big deal to you.

Yeah, the CC conversion is fine (it is in fact the one used for the ToH), but I wasn't sure if they matched up.  We might as well link to those.


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2013)

freyar said:


> Dracoliches have the Undead type, but they're Augmented Dragons.  It just doesn't make much sense, and there's no reasoning for it in the original text.  On the other hand, undead dragon slayers could very well be allied with a character party if out hunting dragons.  I suppose we could drop that since "Solitary" covers meeting the PCs and hooking up, if it's a big deal to you.




Where are you getting the "augmented Dragon" type from? Dracoliches don't have that subtype in the 3E _Draconomicon_. They're Undead plain and simple.

Yes, I know there's nothing to stop character parties allying with an Undead Dragon Slayer, it's just there's no mention of such a habit in the original text so and I don't fancy adding it.

There's little to prevent most intelligent monsters teaming up with adventurers, but they're not listed on half the organizations in the Monster Manuals!

Not all Dracoliches become that way voluntarily, some Dragons are forcibly turned into Dracoliches by evil spellcasters who then coerce them to become servants (presumably by having control of their phylactery). Maybe some Undead Dragon Slayers kill evil dragons using the _dracolich brew_ then use their undead slaves as mounts to hunt their relatives?



freyar said:


> Yeah, the CC conversion is fine (it is in fact the one used for the ToH), but I wasn't sure if they matched up.  We might as well link to those.




Yes, that'd be fine.

I think there might be another Skeleton Warrior in a 3E _Dragonlance_ supplement too, but I forget which one.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm getting it from the SRD:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.



There's no exception listed.  I think, since Draconomicon was being written during the cross-over from 3.0 to 3.5, they just missed this.  There are plenty of errors in D&D books.

I'm willing to leave out anything about PCs.  Anyway, how about this?

Org: Solitary, hunt (1-4 plus 2d10 skeletal warriors), or X (1-4 plus 4d10 skeleton warriors and 1 dracolich)
as well as a description of your enslaved dracoliches in the background text.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'm getting it from the SRD:
> 
> There's no exception listed.  I think, since Draconomicon was being written during the cross-over from 3.0 to 3.5, they just missed this.  There are plenty of errors in D&D books.




If the template doesn't specify whether that you add the augmented subtype I'd be reluctant to assume Dracoliches have it. I checked a few 3E Dracoliches (e.g. Aurgloroasa in _Dragon #344_, Dragotha in _Dungeon #134_) and none of them had "augmented dragon" in their stats.

Then again, I very rarely see the augmented subtype in monster writeups, even creatures where the template specifies they should have it (like SRD Vampires) often forget to include it in their stats.

Anyhow, I don't think it's worth fussing about so long as we're clear whether they can have Enslaved Undead Dragons or not.



freyar said:


> I'm willing to leave out anything about PCs.  Anyway, how about this?
> 
> Org: Solitary, hunt (1-4 plus 2d10 skeletal warriors), or X (1-4 plus 4d10 skeleton warriors and 1 dracolich)
> as well as a description of your enslaved dracoliches in the background text.




That seems rather a lot of skeleton warriors. They are pretty potent undead in their own right, remember - 10th-15th level "undead lords" in the 1E _Fiend Folio_, 10th+ level fighters in the Enworld conversion.

Hmm...

The Human, Dragon Slayer writeup in MCA2 has a #Appearing of 2-12. How about we use that total?

* Organisation:* Solitary, hunt (2-4), company (1-4 plus 1-8 skeletal warriors), or flight (1-4 plus 1 dracolich)

If they've got a dracolich, maybe that's to make them an airborne unit?

They might use other undead dragons if a dracolich is unavailable, like the young adult red dragon skeleton or zombie wyvern in the SRD.

* Organisation:* Solitary, hunt (2-4), company (1-4 plus 1-8 skeletal warriors), flight (1-4 plus 1 dracolich) or squadron (2-4 plus 1 dracolich and 2-12 skeletal warriors and 1-6 young adult red dragon skeletons or zombie wyverns)


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2013)

Sure, that will work.  But let's remember that the CC entry is "skeleton warriors" as opposed to "skeletal warriors."


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> Sure, that will work.  But let's remember that the CC entry is "skeleton warriors" as opposed to "skeletal warriors."




So care to update the *Undead Dragon Slayer Working Draft* with the skeletal changes?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2013)

Oh, right, forgot I was in charge of this one.   Updated.

What do you think of the description and flavor?  The red text is copy-pasted from the original monster, so we'll need to change that up a bit.

Looking back at the original, we seem to have covered all the special attacks (and then some), but we missed this:


> Breath Stun: Aimed at the gullet, this attack (at a -4 penalty) disables the breath weapon. Besides the damage, the breath weapon is disabled for 1 round per point of damage inflicted.



I think we could do one like this based on the Bind Wings attack we wrote.  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2013)

freyar said:


> Oh, right, forgot I was in charge of this one.   Updated.
> 
> What do you think of the description and flavor?  The red text is copy-pasted from the original monster, so we'll need to change that up a bit.




Yes, we could tighten it up a bit and add some stuff explaining their association with skeleton warriors and dracoliches.



freyar said:


> Looking back at the original, we seem to have covered all the special attacks (and then some), but we missed this:
> 
> I think we could do one like this based on the Bind Wings attack we wrote.  What do you think?




Yup, we'd better do something with that.

Do we want an improved version of it too?


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## Cleon (Feb 18, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Yes, we could tighten it up a bit and add some stuff explaining their association with skeleton warriors and dracoliches.




I'm not feeling inspired for a redraft of the background text at the moment. Maybe tomorrow!



Cleon said:


> Yup, we'd better do something with that.
> 
> Do we want an improved version of it too?




Okey-Dokey, how about this?:

*Stifle Breath (Su):* Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may spend a full  attack action to make a single attack with the ability to disable a  dragon's breath weapon. If this attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, it prevents the dragon using any breath weapon it has for 1d6 rounds. The effects of stifle breath can be cancelled by any power that removes a stun effect, such as the _heal_ spell. A breath-stifled dragon  may also cancel the effect with a successful Autohypnosis check (DC equals 10 + undead  dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier).​
I renamed it from "Breath Stun" or "Stun Breath" since that sounded suspiciously like a breath weapon that caused stunning, rather than an attack than "stuns" breath weapons.

There's no "Improved Bind Wings" in the *Undead Dragon Slayer Working Draft*. so I guess we're not needing an "Improved Stifle Breath". I thought about calling it "Paralyze Breath" but that would imply a _remove paralysis_ would cure it, which seemed to easy.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2013)

I'd agree that we shouldn't have an improved version of it.  In any case, I like what you've got except for the Autohypnosis.  These aren't psionic critters, so it's a bit weird to pull that in, and there's nothing in the original ability that suggests dragons should be able to "think themselves out of it."  And Autohypnosis can't undo physical things usually anyway.  I suppose you put it in as a parallel to Escape Artist in Bind Wings?  If you need a skill check, what about Heal?


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## Cleon (Feb 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd agree that we shouldn't have an improved version of it.  In any case, I like what you've got except for the Autohypnosis.  These aren't psionic critters, so it's a bit weird to pull that in, and there's nothing in the original ability that suggests dragons should be able to "think themselves out of it."  And Autohypnosis can't undo physical things usually anyway.  I suppose you put it in as a parallel to Escape Artist in Bind Wings?  If you need a skill check, what about Heal?




Yeah, I was looking for a substitute skill and Autohypnosis seems the closest to a "breath control" skill in the SRD. I don't think of Autohypnosis as being a "psionic skill" since it has no application to psionic powers (well, except for the synergy bonus on Knowledge (psionic) checks - which makes little sense to me!). It may appear in the Psionic Powers Book, but so do a bunch of other non-psionic stuff like a bunch of General Feats. There's nothing very psionic about Sidestep Charge, after all.

Heal would be my next pick, using a standard actions like a "treat wounds" check.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2013)

It is funny that we're more likely to use a feat from the psionic section more than Autohypnosis.  But in this case, I don't feel like the dragon should be able to get rid of this effect mentally.

I'd actually be willing to drop the skill check, given that the dragon might be able to get _heal_ed more easily than dispelling the wall of force.  Not sure.  Any thoughts about that?


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> It is funny that we're more likely to use a feat from the psionic section more than Autohypnosis.  But in this case, I don't feel like the dragon should be able to get rid of this effect mentally.
> 
> I'd actually be willing to drop the skill check, given that the dragon might be able to get _heal_ed more easily than dispelling the wall of force.  Not sure.  Any thoughts about that?




Well the flavour suggests it's some kind of physical damage - the Slayer just hits the dragon at a precise spot and the damage disables its breath weapon. That suggests we could drop the skill check to neutralize it if we want.

Should we allow effects that remove a stun condition, such as the _heal_ spell, remove the Stifle Breath?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2013)

I'd be happy dropping the skill check to neutralize it.  To be honest, I'd allow something more broad than magic that removes stun.  What about anything that eliminates exhaustion?  That gets restoration, greater restoration, and heal (etc).


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## Cleon (Mar 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy dropping the skill check to neutralize it.  To be honest, I'd allow something more broad than magic that removes stun.  What about anything that eliminates exhaustion?  That gets restoration, greater restoration, and heal (etc).




Exhaustion is a good idea. That literally means being out of breath, after all.

*Stifle Breath (Su):* Once per day,  an undead dragon slayer may spend a full  attack action to make a single  attack with the ability to disable a  dragon's breath weapon. If this  attack hits a creature with the dragon subtype, it prevents the dragon  using any breath weapon it has for 1d6 rounds. The effects of stifle  breath can be cancelled by any power that removes exhaustion.

If we want a skill-removal mechanism we could change the last sentence to "The effects of stifle  breath can be cancelled by any power that removes exhaustion or by a successful Heal check (DC equals 10 + undead  dragon slayer's HD + undead dragon slayer's Cha modifier)."


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't think it needs a Heal check.

Updated.

Want to do the sample or background first?


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2013)

freyar said:


> I don't think it needs a Heal check.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Want to do the sample or background first?




Don't mind either way.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2013)

Let's sort out the background while we decide what sort of sample to do.

Anyway, I have to run, so I'll post some suggestions later.  Or you can!


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2013)

OK, a few notes from the original text:

1) Usually created and under command of creator.
2) Sometimes formed spontaneously.  Hmmm, sounds like any undead.  Maybe we need to pick something more interesting.  I do like the "will themselves back" angle.
3) Completely focused on killing dragons, but sometimes keeps company of undead dragons.

Hmmm.  Seems like we might need an SQ to explain it losing power if it doesn't kill a dragon often enough.  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, a few notes from the original text:
> 
> 1) Usually created and under command of creator.
> 2) Sometimes formed spontaneously.  Hmmm, sounds like any undead.  Maybe we need to pick something more interesting.  I do like the "will themselves back" angle.
> 3) Completely focused on killing dragons, but sometimes keeps company of undead dragons.




They're also associated with a cult of dragon killers in the original material, if I remember rightly.



freyar said:


> Hmmm.  Seems like we might need an SQ to explain it losing power if it doesn't kill a dragon often enough.  What do you think?




Sure. Maybe they start accruing positive levels if they don't slay a dragon every X weeks?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2013)

We have something similar for blood warriors in the CC:



> Necessary Slaughter (Su): Blood warriors must kill to maintain their strength. If a troop of blood warriors fails to kill sentient creatures with Hit Dice totaling at least that of the troop\'s Hit Dice each week, each member of the troop gains one positive level.
> 
> Additionally, should a blood warrior be destroyed, each remaining member of the troop gains one positive level.
> 
> ...




Want to shorten this?


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> We have something similar for blood warriors in the CC:
> 
> Want to shorten this?




I don't remember these critters at all.

I'll give it a go...

*Necessary Slaughter #1 (Su):* Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. If a slayer fails to kill dragons with Hit Dice totaling at least their own Hit Dice each week, the undead dragon slayer gains one positive level.

If a slayer kills a number of Hit Dice of dragons equal to its own total Hit Dice, it removes one positive level. If an undead dragon slayer currently has no positive levels, it gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed the slayer's full normal hit point total, and it gradually loses them at the rate of 1 hit point per day.

An undead dragon slayer with positive levels at least equal to its current level is instantly destroyed. After 24 hours, an undead dragon slayer must make a DC 18 Will save. If the saving throw succeeds, the positive level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each positive level it has gained. If the save fails, the positive level goes away, but the creature's level (or HD) is also reduced by one.​ 
I don't like the permanent HD loss of the original and I think the "basic survival" nourishment level ought to be lower than the "gaining strength" nourishment level, so I'd change it to:

*Necessary Slaughter #2 (Su):* Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. If an undead dragon slayer fails to kill dragons with Hit Dice totaling at least half its own Hit Dice each week, the slayer gains one positive level.

If an undead dragon slayer kills a number of Hit Dice of dragons equal to its own total Hit Dice in a week, it removes one positive level. If a slayer currently has no positive levels, it gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed the slayer's full normal hit point total, and it gradually loses them at the rate of 1 hit point per day.

A slayer's positive levels from necessary slaughter can only be removed by slaying dragons. They never result in actual level loss, but if an undead dragon slayer ever gains positive levels equal to its current Hit Dice it is instantly destroyed.​
I fancy allowing it to use its temp hit points to stave off the positive levels:

*Necessary Slaughter #3 (Su):* Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. If an undead dragon slayer fails to kill dragons with Hit Dice totaling at least half its own Hit Dice each week, the slayer gains one positive level. If the slayer has any temporary hit points from necessary slaughter (see next paragraph), it does not gain the positive level and takes 5 hit points of damage instead.

If an undead dragon slayer kills a number of Hit Dice of dragons equal to its own total Hit Dice in a week, it removes one positive level. If a slayer currently has no positive levels, it gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed the slayer's full normal hit point total, and it gradually loses them at the rate of 1 hit point per day.

A slayer's positive levels from necessary slaughter can only be removed by slaying dragons. They never result in actual level loss, but if an undead dragon slayer ever gains positive levels equal to its current Hit Dice it is instantly destroyed.​
I like #3 the best.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2013)

Good grief, we forgot about these again.  No time at just the moment, but I'm giving them a quick bump so we remember to finish them up...


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2013)

freyar said:


> Good grief, we forgot about these again.  No time at just the moment, but I'm giving them a quick bump so we remember to finish them up...




Oh I knew we still had these to finish, but I don't think we're in a hurry.

Besides, it's not like it's *me* who's updating the Undead Dragon Slayer working draft, so this thread is covered by a Someone Else's Problem field. 

What do we have left to do with them apart from the "Must... Kill... Dragons..." special quality?

Just the background text and a sample creature, by the looks of it.


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2013)

Cleon said:


> If an undead dragon slayer kills a number of Hit Dice of dragons equal to its own total Hit Dice in a week, it removes one positive level. If a slayer currently has no positive levels, it gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed the slayer's full normal hit point total, and it gradually loses them at the rate of 1 hit point per day.




Now I _think_ my intention was to allow an Undead Slayer to double its normal hit points by adding temp hit points, but I didn't express that very well.

Rather than max current hit points = max normal hit points + temporary hit points (max temp = max normal), it reads like it's max current hit points = max normal hit points, so it can only gain temporary hit points if it's wounded.

Better rephrase that.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Better rephrase that.




Upon reflection, I'm not in favor of the whole positive level approach. They're just such a nuisance to keep track of. How about using a HP penalty?

What thinks thee of this:

*Draconic Slaughter (Su):* Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to  maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer immediately suffers a 5 point penalty to its hit points, plus an additional 5 point penalty for every day the slayer endures without "feeding". This hit point penalty continues to mount until the undead dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Hit point penalties from Draconic Slaughter can only be removed by the undead dragon slayer kills more Hit Dice worth of dragons than the undead dragon slayer's character level over a 24 hour period. For every Hit Dice of dragons that exceeds the undead dragon slayer's character level, the Draconic Slaughter penalty is reduced by 5 hit points. If this would be more than the penalty, the slayer gains the excess as temporary hit points, up to a maximum of 5 temporary hit points per character level the slayer possesses.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2013)

Hmmm.



> While a slayer does not eat, it must slay dragons to replenish the energy that keeps him animated. Killing a dragon provides an undead dragon slayer with enough energy to last one month for every Hit Die the dragon had. If it does not replenish its energy within one week of the moment its last meal fades, it loses strength and must return to the sleep of the dead.




Not a whole lot of guidance.

I'm not fond of the HP penalty much or particularly of the temporary hp (in fact, the original critter seems not to gain a benefit from eating, merely staving off it's demise).  There's not a standard mechanic for it, it feels just as difficult to track as a positive level in some ways, and it doesn't make apparent that the undead dragon slayer is losing strength.  I would go with the following:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer immediately gains a positive level, plus an additional positive level for every day/week?? the slayer endures without "feeding". The positive levels continue to mount until the undead dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Positive levels from Draconic Slaughter can only be removed by the undead dragon slayer killing more Hit Dice worth of dragons than the undead dragon slayer's character level over a 24 hour period. For every Hit Die of dragons that exceeds the undead dragon slayer's character level, the Draconic Slaughter penalty is reduced by one positive level.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Not a whole lot of guidance.
> 
> I'm not fond of the HP penalty much or particularly of the temporary hp (in fact, the original critter seems not to gain a benefit from eating, merely staving off it's demise).  There's not a standard mechanic for it, it feels just as difficult to track as a positive level in some ways, and it doesn't make apparent that the undead dragon slayer is losing strength.  I would go with the following:




I don't mind dropping the temp hit points bit, but I strongly dislike the positive levels - it's both fiddly and introduces a "death spiral" that makes it a lot harder for a failing Slayer to replenish its unlife-force.

How about if we keep the HP loss but drop the temp hp?

I'm also thinking it's better to lower the restore HP cost and drop the 24 hours bit:

*Draconic Slaughter (Su):* Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons  to  maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead  dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This  duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the  undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life  force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in  the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all  strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic  Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer  immediately loses 5 hit points, plus an  additional 5 point penalty for every day the slayer endures without  "feeding". This hit point loss continues to mount until the undead  dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Hit points lost due to Draconic Slaughter can only be restored by the  undead dragon slayer killing dragons, at a rate of 5 lost hit points per Hit Dice of dragon. Any excess Hit Dice of slain dragon become sustenance for the undead dragon slayer at the normal rate (one week per Hit Dice).


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2013)

I just don't like direct hp penalties.  I believe intelligent undead heal when resting from my reading of the SRD, so you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc.  If you really can't stand positive levels, how about a Cha penalty, with them destroyed when Cha gets to zero?


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2013)

freyar said:


> I just don't like direct hp penalties.  I believe intelligent undead heal when resting from my reading of the SRD, so you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc.  If you really can't stand positive levels, how about a Cha penalty, with them destroyed when Cha gets to zero?




Yes, under RAW intelligent undead have "natural" healing as fast as living creatures.

As for the "you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc", that's all covered in the SQ description I offered.

A Charisma penalty introduces some of the "fiddly recalculations" I don't like about the positive level approach, since a lot of the Slayer's abilities have Cha-based DCs. 

It also still mean the Slayer is still losing hit points, since it has Unholy Toughness.

So, since neither of us appear to like the other's current proposals, how about we try something different.

The original entry doesn't describe the slayer "wilting away" once it runs out of dragon HD life energy, so how about we use one of the following:

a) It is immediately destroyed if it runs out of Dragon HD, no save.

b) It is destroyed 24 hours (or some other number) after it runs out of Dragon HD.

b) when it runs out of Dragon HD it must immediately save (Will DC 20?) or be destroyed, and if it succeeds it must keep on saving every 24 hours at a +1 DC each time until it feeds or misses a save and is destroyed.

I'm liking the latter two as it offers more drama as the Slayer searches for a dragon to kill with increasing desperation. Of them, c) is my favorite as it's (more complicated ) similar to how a creature dying from lack of air works, which is also a sort of "running out of life" situation.


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2013)

Amazing to see you complain about fiddly bits! 

I like the last option, as well.  Here's a draft:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must make a Will save (DC X), or be immediately destroyed.  If it succeeds, the save must be repeated each day until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon, with the DC increasing by +1 for each successful save.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> Amazing to see you complain about fiddly bits!




The stuff I like aren't fiddly bits, but beautiful complexities! 



freyar said:


> I like the last option, as well.  Here's a draft:
> 
> Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.
> 
> If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must make a Will save (DC X), or be immediately destroyed.  If it succeeds, the save must be repeated each day until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon, with the DC increasing by +1 for each successful save.




I'd tweak the second paragraph slightly as follows.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must succeed at a DC X Will save or be immediately destroyed.  The save must be repeated each day, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success, until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon or is destroyed.


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2013)

In that case, all we need is a DC before I can update the draft.  What do you think? Start at DC 20?

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must succeed at a DC X Will save or be immediately destroyed. The save must be repeated each day, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success, until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon or is destroyed.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2013)

freyar said:


> In that case, all we need is a DC before I can update the draft.  What do you think? Start at DC 20?




I was thinking the standard fallback of 15, but would consider 20.

Come to think of it, perhaps it should be a Fort save instead of Will?


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2013)

As an undead with no Con, these are immune to effects that require Fort saves (unless Draconic Slaughter affects objects  ).  And I don't want to explain a bunch of exceptions for this, since this template is complicated enough.  But DC 15 works for me.

Updated.

Ready for background and flavor text?


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> As an undead with no Con, these are immune to  effects that require Fort saves (unless Draconic Slaughter affects  objects   ).  And I don't want to explain a bunch of exceptions for this, since  this template is complicated enough.  But DC 15 works for me.




How do you think those dragonslaying swords work? 



freyar said:


> Ready for background and flavor text?




Sure, I'm OK considering the background text.

Although I'll run my eye over what we have so far first...

Favored Enemy appears to be missing a favored enemy in its final sentence, I suggest:

*Favored Enemy (Dragon) (Ex):* Undead dragon slayers have dragons as  favored enemies, as per the ranger class ability. The bonus is equal to  the maximum bonus achieved by a ranger of the dragon slayer's HD. An  undead dragon slayers' favored enemy (dragon) ability does not stack with any other favored  enemy ability. 

Smite Enemy has some of the original Smite Evil paladin text still in it. I suggest:

*Smite Dragon (Su):* Once per day, an undead dragon slayer may attempt to  smite a dragon with one normal melee attack. The slayer adds its Charisma bonus  (if any) to its attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per HD.  If the undead dragon slayer accidentally smites a non-dragon, the smite has no  effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2013)

Good catches!  Updated.

So, the red text in the flavor section is just a copy-paste from the original monster, and we need to edit that.  I think the second paragraph could be cut, actually, since we just wrote up the Draconic Slaughter SQ.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> Good catches!  Updated.
> 
> So, the red text in the flavor section is just a copy-paste from the original monster, and we need to edit that.  I think the second paragraph could be cut, actually, since we just wrote up the Draconic Slaughter SQ.




We can definitely drop the second paragraph.

I think we ought to have some vague references to dragon slaying cults in there somewhere, but I don't fancy making it that elaborate.

The template itself is complicated enough.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2013)

OK, what we have from the original is


> Most undead dragon slayers are called back from the grave by necromantic magic. Though it retains its own mind and agenda, it must obey the commands of the summoner – at least until its task is complete or it somehow wins its freedom. A small number af dragon slayers actually will themselves back from the dead. These individuals have the utmost faith in their cause, an undying hatred of dragons, and a supernatural strength of will. No matter which type of undead dragon slayer is encountered, all seek to destroy dragons and those who would offer aid to them. An undead dragon slayer might be found in the company of skeleton warriors or dracoliches.




Let's see.  Here's my first attempt, but I'm sure you'll have some good ideas.

While some undead dragon slayers rise from the dead through the sheer force of their burning hatred of dragonkind, most are heros of dragon-fighting cults given a semblance of life through necromancy.  They are all united in their desire to see all dragons --- and those who would aid dragons --- dead.  Undead dragon slayers will keep company with any others who are seek to kill dragons, and they are often accompanied by skeleton warriors as help in their endeavors.  Almost perversely, undead dragon slayers can sometimes be found in the presence of dracoliches or other undead dragons; as undead, a dracolich doesn't arouse the slayer's ire, and territorial dracoliches can use undead dragon slayers to drive other dragons out of their territories.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, what we have from the original is
> 
> Let's see.  Here's my first attempt, but I'm sure you'll have some good ideas.
> 
> While some undead dragon slayers rise from the dead through the sheer force of their burning hatred of dragonkind, most are heros of dragon-fighting cults given a semblance of life through necromancy.  They are all united in their desire to see all dragons --- and those who would aid dragons --- dead.  Undead dragon slayers will keep company with any others who are seek to kill dragons, and they are often accompanied by skeleton warriors as help in their endeavors.  Almost perversely, undead dragon slayers can sometimes be found in the presence of dracoliches or other undead dragons; as undead, a dracolich doesn't arouse the slayer's ire, and territorial dracoliches can use undead dragon slayers to drive other dragons out of their territories.




Hmm, we can probably polish that up a bit and maybe separate it into more paragraphs for easier reading.

Also:



freyar said:


> territorial dracoliches can use undead dragon slayers to drive other dragons out of their territories.




I thought we were going to have the undead dragon slayers use the undead dragons as their slaves, not the other way round?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2013)

I honestly don't remember what we were doing with the dracoliches, other than to note that the undead dragon slayers see them as undead, rather than dragons.

Do you have any suggestions for polishing?


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> I honestly don't remember what we were doing with the dracoliches, other than to note that the undead dragon slayers see them as undead, rather than dragons.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions for polishing?




Let's see...

_A horrifying undead humanoid, little more than a skeleton held together by rotting flesh. Lifeless eyes peer from the sockets of its skull-like face. Its weapons and armor glow with a supernatural light and are decorated with a dragon-scale design and images of dragons or draconic body parts bearing appalling wounds._

Undead dragon slayers are creatures animated by an unquenchable urge to kill dragons. Most are created by evil dragon-fighting cults, but a few have dragged themselves back from the dead through their undying hatred of dragonkind. Those undead dragon slayers created by necromantic rites must obey the spellcasters who ushered them into unlife.

These undead are at least as intelligent and powerful as they were in life and have additional supernatural powers tuned to slaughtering dragons. Killing dragons gives an undead dragon slayer the energy to maintain its unnatural existence, and they fall back into death if this energy runs out (as detailed in their Draconic Slaughter).

Undead dragon slayers tend to hunt in well-coordinated teams with other undead, the better to overcome their powerful dragon prey. As well as other undead dragon slayers, they often fight alongside skeletal warriors; often the reanimated "lesser heroes" of a dragon-fighting cult. Ironically, they also associate with undead dragons, as their lust to kill only applies to _living_ dragons. Some undead dragon slayers derive perverse amusement from turning a dragon they have slain into a dracolich or zombie and using this undead slave to slay that dragon's kin.

A typical undead dragon slayer stands 6 to 7 feet tall and weighs about 250 pounds. They can speak whatever languages they knew in life, which usually includes Common and Draconic.


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2013)

Excellent!  Updated.

Fancy anything in particular for the sample?


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Excellent!  Updated.
> 
> Fancy anything in particular for the sample?




Blackguard with a level or two in Ranger?


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2013)

Sure, if we put 6 levels in ranger including some cross-class skills into Know (religion), that can qualify it for blackguard.  Feats will be determined by blackguard prereqs.  What race?  Just human?


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> Sure, if we put 6 levels in ranger including some cross-class skills into Know (religion), that can qualify it for blackguard.  Feats will be determined by blackguard prereqs.  What race?  Just human?




I'd make him an ex-Paladin Blackguard for the "extra cheesiness". Stat him as a Ranger 2/Paladin 7 who's fallen to become a Ranger 2/Blackguard 7.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2013)

If I understand the rules correctly, an ex-Paladin can only exchange Paladin levels to Blackguard levels if he/she starts with more than 10 levels of Paladin.  So it would be something like Ranger 2/Paladin 7/Blackguard X.  That sound about right?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> If I understand the rules correctly, an ex-Paladin can only exchange Paladin levels to Blackguard levels if he/she starts with more than 10 levels of Paladin.  So it would be something like Ranger 2/Paladin 7/Blackguard X.  That sound about right?




Oh right, in that case we'd want him to be a paladin of 11+ level.

Say, a Ranger 2/Paladin 11 who becomes either a Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 (which gives it an extra _smite good_) or a Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8 (if we want it to have _lay on hands_).

That's higher level than we were originally aiming for, but this is someone who takes on dragons, after all.

Alternatively, if we still want to keep the slayer at 9th level Ranger/Blackguard he'd be able to get all the prereqs as a human Ranger 4 (due to his Human Bonus Feat), making him a Ranger 4/Blackguard 5.

Ranger 4/Blackguard 5 is a good combination, since Blackguards special abilities drop off after 5th level (they just get extra sneak attacks and smite goods). Although the access to 4th level spells at Blackguard 7+ is nice.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2013)

The Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8 can't use _lay on hands_ as an ex-paladin, right?  

I'm open either to Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 or Ranger 4/Blackguard 5 (though doesn't it have to be Ranger 6 to put sufficient cross-class ranks into Know (religion)?).  

Well, let me know what you think, and I'll try to find some time to write a stat block this weekend.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> The Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8 can't use _lay on hands_ as an ex-paladin, right?




Yes they can, but only on themselves or their Fiendish buddy. Check out the Fallen Paladin level 3-4 ability in the *Blackguard* class:

 	Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus × his level. 




freyar said:


> I'm open either to Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 or Ranger 4/Blackguard 5 (though doesn't it have to be Ranger 6 to put sufficient cross-class ranks into Know (religion)?).




It needs only 2 ranks in Know (religion). You can get that at level 1 even as cross-class skills since your max cross-class skill ranks are half or (level+3).

Oh dang, I just noticed Blackguard has a +6 BAB prerequisite too, meaning Ranger 4/Blackguard 5 won't work. Looks like Ranger 6/Blackguard 3 is the minimum for a two-class Ranger/Blackguard build, although for different reasons than you cited.



freyar said:


> Well, let me know what you think, and I'll try to find some time to write a stat block this weekend.




Better late than never. You can still write up a statblock _a_ weekend, just not the one after the 1st of November of your last post.

I'm liking the Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8 option the most.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2013)

Oh, right, I'm not sure why I was getting confused about the cross-class ranks.  Maybe I misread the prereq.

Well, it did take you nearly 2 weeks to respond to my post.   So we are doing Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8, I guess. Does it matter how many of the Blackguard levels are from trading in ex-Paladin levels?  Guess not.  I'll try to get to that sometime before too long....


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> Oh, right, I'm not sure why I was getting confused about the cross-class ranks.  Maybe I misread the prereq.
> 
> Well, it did take you nearly 2 weeks to respond to my post.




It either took me that long to come up with such a finely crafted response or I hadn't noticed your post.

You pays your coppers and you makes your choice.



freyar said:


> So we are doing Ranger 2/Ex-Paladin 3/Blackguard 8, I guess. Does it  matter how many of the Blackguard levels are from trading in ex-Paladin  levels?  Guess not.  I'll try to get to that sometime before too  long....




Well, since it needed 11+ paladin levels to be able to trade _any_ of them in, all its blackguard levels used to be paladin levels (as 3+8 = 11).

I guess it depends whether the "trading in" allows it to reassign its class skills, since the two classes have different skill lists:

*Blackguards* have Hide and Intimidate,
*Paladins* have Sense Motive,
*Both Classes* have Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (religion), Profession & Ride.

In either case, it's obviously more efficient to make the 1st level in Ranger, so you get the most skill points.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2013)

Can't believe I'm so far behind on these posts.  Taking a vacation this week, too, and I'm not sure if that will speed me up or slow me down. 

Anyway, I think I was forgetting about prereqs and thinking it could start blackguard after ranger 2/paladin 3, but clearly that's not right.

Anyway, as you suggest, the first 2 levels will be ranger, then I'll choose skills that are in both the paladin and blackguard skill lists just to avoid confusion.  Anyway, I will work on that stat block but might try to catch up on other posts first, not sure.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> Can't believe I'm so far behind on these posts.  Taking a vacation this week, too, and I'm not sure if that will speed me up or slow me down.
> 
> Anyway, I think I was forgetting about prereqs and thinking it could start blackguard after ranger 2/paladin 3, but clearly that's not right.
> 
> Anyway, as you suggest, the first 2 levels will be ranger, then I'll choose skills that are in both the paladin and blackguard skill lists just to avoid confusion.  Anyway, I will work on that stat block but might try to catch up on other posts first, not sure.




It'd produce better results using the Ranger SPs mostly on Ranger-Only skills.

There's not that much overlap - the two classes only share the skills of Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession and Ride, most of which are of little use for dragon-killing.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2014)

OK, I am putting this on my to-do list!


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2014)

freyar said:


> OK, I am putting this on my to-do list!




I'll be waiting with suitably bated breath.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2014)

Sample added.

I wanted to get back to posting other threads, plus I thought it would be good to get your input on the ranger's favored enemy (doesn't stack with the dragon slayer's, so we might as well choose something non-dragon) and the selection of special abilities.  Let me know if you spot any mistakes, also.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2014)

freyar said:


> Sample added.




The link didn't work for me.

Which is weird, since your previous post number links to the Undead Dragon Slayer still work fine.

e.g.:



freyar said:


> Excellent!  Updated.




works fine.

But when I try the link in post #1544  I get "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator]".


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2014)

freyar said:


> I wanted to get back to posting other threads, plus I thought it would be good to get your input on the ranger's favored enemy (doesn't stack with the dragon slayer's, so we might as well choose something non-dragon) and the selection of special abilities.  Let me know if you spot any mistakes, also.




Let's see...

The ability scores check out, assuming you put all its level-based gains in Charisma.

The BAB, Grapple, SPs and feats check out.

We don't normally capitalize the abilities in the Special Attack and Special Defenses lines.

The special attacks line is missing Anti-Dragon Casting and Weapon Throwing.

The special qualities line has a "D*e*ark Blessing" typo and its Spell Resistance should be 27 (as it has a Challenge Rating of 14).

The Fort and Will saves are wonky, but the Ref save checks out.

*Fort Save* = +3 (ranger), +3 (ex-paladin), +6 (blackguard), +6 Cha bonus (dark blessing) = 3+3+6+6 = +*18*!

*Ref Save* = +3 (ranger), +1 (ex-paladin), +2 (blackguard), +1 Dex bonus, +6 Cha bonus (dark blessing)  = 3+1+2+1+6 = +*13*! (+14 vs dragons)

*Will Save* = +0 (ranger), +1 (ex-paladin), +2 (blackguard), +2 Wis bonus, +6 Cha bonus (dark blessing) = 0+1+2+2+6 = +*11*!


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2014)

Just noticed we are missing Environment from the template.

 The original had "Any (Io's Island)", so how about "Environment: Any, usually same as base creature" like the SRD Skeleton?

For the sample creature, our template give it:

*Environment:*  Any, usually same as base creature
*Organization:*  Solitary, hunt (2-4), company (1-4 plus 1-8 skeleton warriors), flight  (1-4 plus 1 dracolich), or squadron (2-4 plus 1 dracolich and 2-12  skeleton warriors and 1-6 young adult red dragon skeletons or zombie  wyverns)
*Challenge Rating:*   14
*Treasure:* Gear
*Alignment:* Any evil

Hmm, I don't like the "gear" in treasure. How about we change the template's wording to "None (except for equipment)."

*Treasure:* None (except for equipment)


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2014)

Regarding the optional special abilities, I think Magical Beast is a good pick for the Favored Enemy since there are a number of part-dragon creatures that have that type, such as the Chimera.

We need to choose a Fiendish Servant. A heavy warhorse would seem to make the most sense.

We've also got six additional undead dragon slayer special abilities to pick, one of which can be Improved. I feel it might be better to decide on its weapon preference and feats before choosing those.


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2014)

Cleon said:


> But when I try the link in post #1544  I get "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator]".




I had a typo in the post number, which I've fixed up.



Cleon said:


> We don't normally capitalize the abilities in the Special Attack and Special Defenses lines.
> 
> The special attacks line is missing Anti-Dragon Casting and Weapon Throwing.
> 
> ...




That's all fixed.  Do we put the +14 vs dragons on the saves line?  I can't recall the precedent.  I don't know what happened with the save numbers.



Cleon said:


> Just noticed we are missing Environment from the template.
> 
> The original had "Any (Io's Island)", so how about "Environment: Any, usually same as base creature" like the SRD Skeleton?
> 
> ...






Cleon said:


> Regarding the optional special abilities, I think Magical Beast is a good pick for the Favored Enemy since there are a number of part-dragon creatures that have that type, such as the Chimera.
> 
> We need to choose a Fiendish Servant. A heavy warhorse would seem to make the most sense.
> 
> We've also got six additional undead dragon slayer special abilities to pick, one of which can be Improved. I feel it might be better to decide on its weapon preference and feats before choosing those.




Agreed to all that.  Any ideas on the weapons, etc?

Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2014)

freyar said:


> That's all fixed.  Do we put the +14 vs dragons on the saves line?  I can't recall the precedent.  I don't know what happened with the save numbers.




Well if we came up with a hard-and-fast rule no one told me, I've just been going for "adding special save adjustments were it seems to make sense".

Hmm, considering how many specifically anti-dragon abilities it has (surprise surprise!) it'd seem easier to have a separate "Anti-Dragon Stat Block" to use when its facing a Draconic opponent with all the adjustments factored in.



freyar said:


> Agreed to all that.  Any ideas on the weapons, etc?




You went for the two-weapon fighting option, so how about a pair of kukri, longswords, or scimitars (with Improved Critical, obviously) and give it Bind Wings, Dazzling Display, Enhanced Breath Evasion, True Strike, and Smite Dragon, plus one more for its "Improved Additional" power. Maybe Improved Dazzling Display or Improved Weapon Throwing?


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2014)

Hmmm, maybe I'll do that "anti-dragon" stat block once the basic one is finished.

What about a longsword/shortsword combo?

I've not had much chance to post this past week (between travel and internet connectivity issues both on the road and at work), but I'll get back to posting and updating this thing soon.  I'm determined to get this one finished by June!


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, maybe I'll do that "anti-dragon" stat block once the basic one is finished.




Good oh!



freyar said:


> What about a longsword/shortsword combo?




I was thinking of keeping the weapons the same to cut down on feat duplication, but consider it isn't a fighter (so doesn't get fighter bonus feats or access to Weapon Specialization feats) that isn't so big an issue.

So I guess longsword/shortsword is fine.



freyar said:


> I've not had much chance to post this past week (between travel and  internet connectivity issues both on the road and at work), but I'll get  back to posting and updating this thing soon.  I'm determined to get  this one finished by June!




Well it's nice to be optimistic...


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2014)

Updated.

I put in the longsword/short sword combo, the special abilities you suggested (I agreed with them and picked Improved Weapon Throwing as a special one), and went ahead with full plate armor to save time.  I can change that if you object strenuously.

Skills, feats, and spells are next.  Suggestions?


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2014)

freyar said:


> Updated.
> 
> I put in the longsword/short sword combo, the special abilities you suggested (I agreed with them and picked Improved Weapon Throwing as a special one), and went ahead with full plate armor to save time.  I can change that if you object strenuously.
> 
> Skills, feats, and spells are next.  Suggestions?




Well it doesn't have the Dex for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, so I guess we could go for Improved Critical (longsword), Weapon Focus (longsword) and Power Attack.

Maybe Stand Still to try to prevent a dragon they're in melee with from running (it _might_ work, since Dragons have poor Dex so Ref tends to be their worse save).

That's four.

Hold on, he's an unholy undead knight so ought to be good on a steed.

Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery then.

Put together, that's:

Feats: Improved Critical (longsword), Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Stand Still, Weapon Focus (longsword)


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm fine with those feats, as long as we add a composite longbow to go with Mounted Archery.

Speaking of weapons (and armor), should we make any of it magic or at least masterwork?

OK, skills that are ranger, paladin, and blackguard class skills have a max of 16 ranks.  However, we only have enough paladin/blackguard ranks available to max out 3 such skills.  I propose going with 16 ranks in Concentration, Ride, and either Heal or Handle Animal (probably Heal).  Then we still have 20 ranger ranks left (max 5 per skill).  I think I would put 5 ranks each in Listen and Spot, 3 in Use Rope, 3 in Survival, and 4 cross-class in Know (arcana) (for a bonus of +2).

What do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> I'm fine with those feats, as long as we add a composite longbow to go with Mounted Archery.




Sure, although Mounted Archery will also apply to its Improved Weapon Throwing I was thinking we'd give him a mighty bow as well.



freyar said:


> Speaking of weapons (and armor), should we make any of it magic or at least masterwork?




I was presuming he'd have gear worth the standard treasure value of a 13th level NPC - i.e. 35,000 gp.



freyar said:


> OK, skills that are ranger, paladin, and blackguard class skills have a max of 16 ranks.  However, we only have enough paladin/blackguard ranks available to max out 3 such skills.  I propose going with 16 ranks in Concentration, Ride, and either Heal or Handle Animal (probably Heal).




Concentration will come in handy for casting its Blackguard spells and _true strike_ SLA, so it makes sense to max that out.

It seems funny having an Undead with the Heal skill, but it's rules-legal to use *Heal* on an *Undead*, plus it'll have learned most of the Heal ranks while still alive.

That said, he'd have uses for Handle Animal too, for training various hunting and riding beasts. If we give it 5+ ranks that also grants a +2 bonus to Wild Empathy, for a total bonus of +10.

We could max out Concentration and Ride and split the remaining points evenly, for 8 ranks in Handle Animal and Heal.



freyar said:


> Then we still have 20 ranger ranks left  (max 5 per skill).  I think I would put 5 ranks each in Listen and Spot,  3 in Use Rope, 3 in Survival, and 4 cross-class in Know (arcana) (for a  bonus of +2).




Hold on, he needs 5 ranks in Hide and 2 in Knowledge (religion) as prerequisites for being a Blackguard.

We'd better take the Know (religion) out of its Paladin budget (cutting Handle Animal & Heal by 1 rank each).

I don't like the cross-class Knowledge (arcana), so I'd use those ranger SPs for Hide.

I'd also rather cut the points in Use Rope and put them in Survival. Methinks it'd be using Survival to track dragons with its ranger training a lot more than it'd be tying knots!

That'd result in:

*Paladin/Blackguard/Ranger Ranks (48 SPs):* Concentration 16, Knowledge (religion) 2, Handle Animal 7, Heal 7, Ride 16

*Ranger Ranks (20 SPs):* Hide 5, Listen 5, Spot 5, Survival 5

=>

*Total Ranks (68 SPs):* Concentration 16, Knowledge (religion) 2, Handle Animal 7, Heal 7, Hide 5, Listen 5, Ride 16, Spot 5, Survival 5

=>

*Skills:* Concentration +16, Knowledge (religion) +3, Handle Animal +13, Heal +9, Hide +0* (_+6 without armor penalt_y), Listen +7, Ride +19, Spot +7, Survival +5

Don't forget the +2 to Wild Empathy for the Handle Animal ranks.

The +19 in Ride means our sample Undead Dragon Slayer will always make the DC 20 check to control its mount in battle.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2014)

Updated

OK, I think the only thing remaining in the sample's stats is equipment, specifically enhancements to weapons and armor as well as other magic items.  First off, though, do all the numbers look right to you?


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2014)

freyar said:


> Updated
> 
> OK, I think the only thing remaining in the sample's stats is equipment, specifically enhancements to weapons and armor as well as other magic items.  First off, though, do all the numbers look right to you?




Hold on a mo...

The speed line should be "20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)"

The attack lines are missing the effects of Weapon Focus (longsword) and Improved Critical (longsword), plus the shortsword gets full strength bonus to damage when used as a standard attack.

Hold on a second. A ranger can only use Combat Style when in light armor or less, it won't be able to use its TWF bonus feat when in plate armor! That gives him a -4/-8 weapon penalty, so we'd better rethink...

It'd seem easiest to just make him a sword & board fighter who uses a shield and longsword or a two-handed weapon user, since that would require the least messing around with the stats, e.g:

_Sword & Board Option:_
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
*Armor Class:* 21 (+1 Dex, +8 full plate, +2 darkwood heavy shield), touch 11, flat-footed 20
*Attack:* longsword +19 melee (1d8+5/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14 ranged (1d8+5/×3)
*Full Attack:* longsword +19/+14/+9 melee (1d8+5/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14/+9/+4 ranged  (1d8+5/×3)

_Two-Handed Weapon Option:_
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
*Attack:* greatsword +19 melee (2d6+7/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14 ranged (1d8+5/×3)
*Full Attack:* longsword +19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+7/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14/+9/+4 ranged  (1d8+5/×3)

Alternatively, we could give him elven chain instead of plate armor so he qualifies for the Ranger's TWF:

_Ranger TWF Option:_
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+1 Dex, +5 elven chain), touch 11, flat-footed 16
*Attack:* longsword +19 melee (1d8+5/17-20) or short sword +18 melee (1d6+5/19-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14 ranged (1d8+5/×3)
*Full Attack:* longsword +17/+12/+7 melee (1d8+5/17-20) and short  sword +16 melee (1d6+2/19-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14/+9/+4 ranged  (1d8+5/×3)

I'd prefer either of the first two options, since I don't fancy reducing his AC so much. I'll leave which one up to you.


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## freyar (May 26, 2014)

Hmm, I'm mostly just posting quickly to keep this from falling off the first forum page.

But would it maybe make sense to switch to a ranged type fighter instead?


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## Cleon (May 29, 2014)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I'm mostly just posting quickly to keep this from falling off the first forum page.
> 
> But would it maybe make sense to switch to a ranged type fighter instead?




Maybe, but I thought we'd already decided on TWF.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2014)

It wasn't a joint decision, just something I put in when starting the sample.  What do you think would work best?  I'm going to carve out a couple hours this week just to finish the sample, so tell me anything you'd like in it.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2014)

freyar said:


> It wasn't a joint decision, just something I put in when starting the sample.  What do you think would work best?  I'm going to carve out a couple hours this week just to finish the sample, so tell me anything you'd like in it.




OK, so which do you prefer?

If you want it to actually use its ranger Combat Style we'll have to switch to light armour (or medium armour made of mithral).

That suggests going for a greatsword wielder with ranged weapon Combat Style and light armor.

We've got a 35,000 gold equipment budget, which is enough for a _+1 dragon bane greatsword_ (8,350 gp), a _+1 composite longbow_ [+5 Str] (2,900 gp) plus either _+2 elven chain_ (8,150) or a _+2 adamantine chain shirt_ (9,250 gp) and leave about fifteen thousand gp for some miscellaneous items.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2014)

Ugh.  Really wanted to get this done by now. 

Let's switch to ranged combat style as you suggest.  This may also suggest swapping some of the undead dragon slayer abilities.  I'll take a look at this as soon as possible and update the working draft.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2014)

freyar said:


> Ugh.  Really wanted to get this done by now.
> 
> Let's switch to ranged combat style as you suggest.  This may also suggest swapping some of the undead dragon slayer abilities.  I'll take a look at this as soon as possible and update the working draft.




I'd be fine keeping the full plate and not have him use his Ranger Combat Style in normal encounters. 

Frankly, Rapid Shot is not all that useful for him compared to his "standard" full attack with a composite longbow. He'll still be able to use favoured enemy to add more damage to his dragon-killing.

Let's just switch him from greatsword to longsword instead.

*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares, base speed 30 ft.)
*Attack:* greatsword +19 melee (2d6+7/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14 ranged (1d8+5/×3)
*Full Attack:* greatsword +19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+7/17-20) or composite longbow (+5 Str) +14/+9/+4 ranged  (1d8+5/×3)


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2014)

I assume you mean "to greatsword."  And to add a shield. That all make sense to me.  Will try to do that tonight (haha, we'll see).


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2014)

freyar said:


> I assume you mean "to greatsword."  And to add a shield. That all make sense to me.  Will try to do that tonight (haha, we'll see).




Well I did most of the figuring for you, so it shouldn't be _that_ arduous.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2014)

Finally updated.

On to spells?


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## Cleon (Jul 4, 2014)

freyar said:


> Finally updated.
> 
> On to spells?




Sure. Its blackguard spells are Wisdom-based, so with bonus spells it gets 3/2/1/1.

How about...

4th—_freedom of movement;_
3rd—_protection from energy;_
2nd—_bull's strength_, _inflict moderate wounds_;
1st—_cause fear_, _corrupt weapon_, _inflict light wounds_.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2014)

Those look good to me.

Anything else it needs mechanically aside from the anti-dragon statblock?  Looking back at other templates, we don't usually include tactics, but I will give a description of the ability array used.  I guess the other question is if we want to improve the equipment and give it other magic items.  I say yes!  We probably ought to give it some other weapons (to take advantage of TWF when unarmored).

Hey, I just noticed that my last update didn't take.  I'll do that with the spells and equipment.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2014)

freyar said:


> Those look good to me.
> 
> Anything else it needs mechanically aside from the anti-dragon statblock?  Looking back at other templates, we don't usually include tactics, but I will give a description of the ability array used.  I guess the other question is if we want to improve the equipment and give it other magic items.  I say yes!  We probably ought to give it some other weapons (to take advantage of TWF when unarmored).




We'd better figure out its equipment. Do we use its character level of 13 to figure out its wealth or its CR of 14? The former gives us a budget of 35,000 gp and the latter 45,000 gp.

I'm thinking you normally use CR to determine wealth, which'll give us an extra 10k to play around with.

We're still using the greatsword primary weapon version, right? So my previous proposal for a _+1 dragon bane greatsword_ (8,350 gp) and _+1 composite longbow_ [+5 Str] (2,900 gp) as the main weapons seems a good start.

We're taking the "full plate" option. That's 1,500 gp. We might as well masterwork it for another 150 gp and it should be at least +1, for a total of 2,650 gp.

That's 13,900 gp, so we've still got plenty left from our 45,000 gp budget - 31,100 gp.

We could go for adamantine (+14,850), mithral (+8,850) or plain +3 (+9,000) armour, for example, and still have 15-20k left to improve the weapons or buy a few miscellaneous items.



freyar said:


> Hey, I just noticed that my last update didn't take.  I'll do that with the spells and equipment.




Yes, this board does that to me sometimes too.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2014)

Urg, was going to finish this at the end of last week, but then real life hit hard.  I will get to it soon, though.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2014)

freyar said:


> Urg, was going to finish this at the end of last week, but then real life hit hard.  I will get to it soon, though.




Take your time!

Doing these monster conversion _is_ supposed to be the fun part of out time, not the work part, even though it feels like it sometimes.


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## JohnSmith (Aug 9, 2014)

*Darter Challenge Rating*

Question; Should the Darter (Fiend Folio, 1994) have a Challenge Rating of 6? Is this an error?

Thank you


[h=3]Small Magical Beast        	
[/h]*Hit Dice: * 1d10+1 (6 hp)*Initiative: * +1*Speed:* 10 ft (2 squares)*Armor Class: * 12 (+1 size, +1 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 11*Base Attack/Grapple: *+1/-4*Attack: *Claw +1 melee (1d2-1) or fang +3 ranged (1d3-1 and poison)*Full Attack: *Claw +1 melee (1d2-1) or fang +3 ranged (1d3-1 and poison)*Space/Reach: *5 ft/5 ft*Special Attacks: *Blood drain, fangs, poison*Special Qualities: *Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision*Saves: *Fort +3,        Ref +3, Will +1      *Abilities: *Str 9,        Dex 12, Con 13,        Int 1, Wis 12,        Cha 2 *Skills: *Hide +7, Listen +4, Spot +4*Feats: *Alertness*Environment: *Temperate and warm marsh*Organization: *Pair, pack (3-8), or nest (9-24)*Challenge Rating: *06*Treasure: *None*Alignment: *Always neutral*Advancement: *2-3 HD (Small)*Level Adjustment: *---


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## Cleon (Aug 9, 2014)

JohnSmith said:


> Question; Should the Darter (Fiend Folio, 1994) have a Challenge Rating of 6? Is this an error?




I believe that's a transcription error and it should be Challenge Rating 1.

The Creature Catalog's original 3.0 conversion of the *Darter* is CR 1.

The *3.5 Darter* update you referred to is pretty close to the 3.0 version in strength, so it oughtn't to be CR 6. It has a weak Blood Drain attack added to it, but that's not enough to make 5 CR levels of difference!


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## JohnSmith (Aug 9, 2014)

Thank you. Is there something like a list of fixes and changes to already existing monsters in the catalogue?


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2014)

JohnSmith said:


> Thank you. Is there something like a list of fixes and changes to already existing monsters in the catalogue?




The closest we've got to that is the *Corrections to Monsters in the CC* thread, but it's not terribly complete or up-to-date.

If you spot any apparent errors you're welcome to put a post on that to raise the issue.

However, due to the peculiar set up of the Creature Catalog's database, it's not practical for us to change some of the entries - basically we can't edit most of the 3.0 monsters, the hazards, or the true dragons.

For example, If we wanted to change one of the true dragons the only way we have to do it is to create a new dragon entry by copying over every data field with whatever changes we wanted to make and then delete the old dragon entry, which is such a hassle we haven't bothered doing it for the dragon errors we've spotted so far.


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## JohnSmith (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2014)

Cleon said:


> Take your time!
> 
> Doing these monster conversion _is_ supposed to be the fun part of out time, not the work part, even though it feels like it sometimes.




Heh, the "urg" was more about not having all the time I'd like for fun stuff.  And it's not exactly that work is getting in the way (though that is busy) as much as other RL stuff that is much less fun than work is.  If that makes sense.  But I really would like to finish this one off.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2014)

freyar said:


> Heh, the "urg" was more about not having all the time I'd like for fun stuff.  And it's not exactly that work is getting in the way (though that is busy) as much as other RL stuff that is much less fun than work is.  If that makes sense.  But I really would like to finish this one off.




No worries, we'll get it done.

Eventually...


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2014)

Finally updated (again) with the greatsword (again) and spells.  

I don't think we settled on equipment.  How would you like to improve what it's got?


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2014)

freyar said:


> Finally updated (again) with the greatsword (again) and spells.




You appear to have one feat too many.

Its 13 HD gives it five standard feats but it has six.

Which one do you want to cut?



freyar said:


> I don't think we settled on equipment.  How would you like to improve what it's got?




Well my most recent post on the subject was:



Cleon said:


> We'd better figure out its equipment. Do we use its  character level of 13 to figure out its wealth or its CR of 14? The  former gives us a budget of 35,000 gp and the latter 45,000 gp.
> 
> I'm thinking you normally use CR to determine wealth, which'll give us an extra 10k to play around with.
> 
> ...




I fancy giving him adamantine armour (+14,850 gp) and adding _boots of speed_ (12,000 gp), a _+1 ring of protection_ (2,000 gp), a _+1 cloak of resistance_ (1,000 gp) and a _wand of inflict light wounds_ (750 gp).

That makes it:

_+1 adamantine full plate_ (17,500)
_+1 dragon bane greatsword_ (8,350 gp)
_+1 composite longbow_ [+5 Str] (2,900 gp)
_boots of speed_ (12,000 gp)
_+1 ring of protection_ (2,000 gp)
_+1 cloak of resistance_ (1,000 gp)
_wand of inflict light wounds_ (750 gp)
plus 500 gp in change

Budget: 45,000 gp
Total: 44,500 gp
Remainder: 500 gp


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2014)

Doesn't he/she get an extra feat at 1st level for starting out as a human?

Will update later with the equipment, which I like pretty well.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2014)

freyar said:


> Doesn't he/she get an extra feat at 1st level for starting out as a human?




Oh I forgot he was human, in which case we are allowed the extra feat.

Did we remember to give him the extra skill points for being human too?


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2014)

That we forgot!  We could add some ranks to some of the skills we left low.  Any preferences?  We get 16 more.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2014)

freyar said:


> That we forgot!  We could add some ranks to some of the skills we left low.  Any preferences?  We get 16 more.




OK, let's double check. He starts out ranger, so his two levels in that give him 40 SPs (5 multiplied by 6 +1 Int +1 human), and his 11 levels in Paladin/Blackguard give him 44 SPs (11 multiplied by 2 +1 Int +1 human).

That's 84 SPs and we previously have him 68 SPs, so you're right and he needs 16 more.

His current SP arrangement is:

*Total Ranks (68 SPs):* Concentration 16, Knowledge (religion) 2, Handle Animal 7, Heal 7, Hide 5, Listen 5, Ride 16, Spot 5, Survival 5

I'd be inclined to put 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) to give it the extra +2 to Command Undead checks, plus 6 ranks each in Listen and Spot - since noticing your enemies is always useful!

That'd make it:

*Skills:* Concentration +16, Knowledge (religion) +7, Handle Animal  +13, Heal +9, Hide +0* (+6 without armor penalty), Listen +13, Ride +19,  Spot +13, Survival +5


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2014)

That looks good.  I'll get around to an update on that and equipment hopefully on the weekend.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2014)

freyar said:


> That looks good.  I'll get around to an update on that and equipment hopefully on the weekend.




Good.

Once that's done this conversion should be about finished, shouldn't it?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2014)

Pretty close, after more than 2.5 years and way too long.  But I do have to find some time for the update.  Unfortunately, I'm not likely to have time for anything but work for a couple of weeks...


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## Cleon (Oct 8, 2014)

freyar said:


> Pretty close, after more than 2.5 years and way too long.  But I do have to find some time for the update.  Unfortunately, I'm not likely to have time for anything but work for a couple of weeks...




Well we're not working to a deadline, so no need to hurry.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2014)

I'd just like to see it finished, that's all.  It's not so complicated it should have taken this long, really.  I'm pretty sure this is the last remaining conversion Shade worked on, too.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2014)

freyar said:


> I'd just like to see it finished, that's all.  It's not so complicated it should have taken this long, really.




Well we just need to update the skills, give it a possessions line and write out its "anti-dragon stat block" and a line or two of fluff.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2014)

Cleon said:


> Well we just need to update the skills, give it a possessions line and write out its "anti-dragon stat block" and a line or two of fluff.




Oh dang it, I just realized there's no point giving it adamantine armour, since dragon slayers already get 5 points of untyped damage reduction.

An easy fix is to make its full plate +2 mithral armour instead of +1 adamantine and make the greatsword adamantine, since that has the same total cost less the "free masterwork" of an adamantine weapon.

Come to think of it, we should also give it some arrows for its longbow. How about 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows and 10 adamantine arrows for an additional cost of 666 gp?

_+2 mithral full plate_ (14,500)
_+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ (11,050 gp)
_+1 composite longbow_ [+5 Str] (2,900 gp)
40 cold iron arrows (4 gp)
30 silver arrows (61.5 gp)
10 adamantine arrows (600.5)
_boots of speed_ (12,000 gp)
_+1 ring of protection_ (2,000 gp)
_+1 cloak of resistance_ (1,000 gp)
_wand of inflict light wounds_ (750 gp)
plus 134 gp in change

Budget: 45,000 gp
Total: 44,866 gp
Remainder: 134 gp

That'd make its equipment line:

*Possessions:* _+2 mithral full plate_, _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_, _+1 composite longbow_ [+5 Str] (with 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows and 10 adamantine arrows), _boots of speed_, _+1 ring of protection_, _+1 cloak of resistance_, _wand of inflict light wounds_ plus 134 gp.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2014)

Sure!  I'll use that when I get there.


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2014)

freyar said:


> Sure!  I'll use that when I get there.




Well at least it's a "when" rather than an "if".


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2014)

Hah!


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2014)

freyar said:


> Hah!




I'm just naturally optimistic.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2014)

Just a quick post to bump this.  Busy work right now, but I'll be more free in a week.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2014)

freyar said:


> Just a quick post to bump this.  Busy work right now, but I'll be more free in a week.




Well it's been three months since the last update, so what's another week here-or-there.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2014)

Yeah, this is just silly at this point.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2014)

freyar said:


> Yeah, this is just silly at this point.




Any more prevaricating and I might even be tempted to re-post the monster and update it myself!


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2015)

Guess what!  I think it's basically there. 

Except for the anti-dragon stats, that is.  But I'd appreciate if you'd go over the numbers on the basic version before I start upgrading it to the anti-dragon version.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2015)

freyar said:


> Guess what!  I think it's basically there.
> 
> Except for the anti-dragon stats, that is.  But I'd appreciate if you'd go over the numbers on the basic version before I start upgrading it to the anti-dragon version.




Give me a moment to look through it...


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2015)

Cleon said:


> Give me a moment to look through it...




Firstly, the armour class line should mention the +2 enhancement bonus of the mithral plate:

*Armor Class:*: 22 (+1 Dex, +1 deflection, +10 _ +2 mithral full plate_), touch 12, flat-footed 21

Secondly, at level+13 his spell resistance should be 26, not 27.

Thirdly, we've messed up the feats. With 13 character levels it ought to have five standard feats, not six, and it also has to have Cleave, Improved Sunder and Power Attack because those are prerequisited for the Blackguard prestige class.

We'd better change the feats line. If we remove Stand Still and the mounted combat feats we won't need to change the attack line:

*Feats:* Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Track(B), Two-Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus (greatsword)

Fourthly, it's normal to list the magical items in a Possessions line, not under treasure - which also suggests we ought to modify the template's Treasure line:

*Template:*
*Treasure: Standard (including possessions appropriate for its character level).

Sample Creature:
Treasure: Standard (see possessions).

. . .

Possessions: +2 mithral full plate, +1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword, +1 composite longbow (+5 Str), 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows, 10 adamantine arrows, boots of speed, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, wand of inflict light wounds, 134 gp

Fifthly, it has a Advancement by character class and a Level Adjustment of +4.

Sixthly, and finally, we need to spell out the ability array, e.g. add the following after the description:

The undead dragon slayer presented here is a former human with the following base ability scores: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16.*


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2015)

Cleon said:


> Sixthly, and finally, we need to spell out the ability array, e.g. add the following after the description:




That reminds me, the "Its weapons and armor glow with a supernatural light and are decorated with a dragon-scale design and images of dragons or draconic body parts bearing appalling wounds." in the description seems rather ungainly. 

How about "Its weapons and armor glow with a supernatural light and are decorated with a dragon-scale design and images of mutilated dragons."


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2015)

Cleon said:


> Thirdly, we've messed up the feats. With 13 character levels it ought to have five standard feats, not six, and it also has to have Cleave, Improved Sunder and Power Attack because those are prerequisited for the Blackguard prestige class.
> 
> We'd better change the feats line. If we remove Stand Still and the mounted combat feats we won't need to change the attack line:
> 
> *Feats:* Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Track(B), Two-Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus (greatsword)




Correction. As a Human he gets a bonus feat, so we can give it one back. I'd go for Mounted Combat:

*Feats:* Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Sunder, Mounted Combat (B), Power Attack, Track(B), Two-Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2015)

Hmm, I had the same numbers as you for the AC but forgot to list "+2" explicitly on the armor.  Will add that back....

SR is supposed to be CR+13.  At level 13, the sample (before template) is level 13, so CR 13.  But then the template adds CR +1.  So I get SR of 27, right?

I can go for those feat replacements. 

I see what you mean about the description, but I'm a little reluctant to change it since I think Shade wrote it --- I'd like to keep a little more of his work around.

Updated


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2015)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I had the same numbers as you for the AC but forgot to list "+2" explicitly on the armor.  Will add that back....
> 
> SR is supposed to be CR+13.  At level 13, the sample (before template) is level 13, so CR 13.  But then the template adds CR +1.  So I get SR of 27, right?




I was probably thinking it was HD + 13, not CR + 13.

Hmm, perhaps we should change it from Challenge Rating to Hit Dice.

Don't templates that grant spell resistance generally base it on Hit Dice, like the Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial? If for no other reason that you don't have to worry about whether the CR adjustment applies before or after you calculate the SR!



freyar said:


> I see what you mean about the description, but I'm a little reluctant to change it since I think Shade wrote it --- I'd like to keep a little more of his work around.




I don't mind leaving the description as it is _in memorandum_.



freyar said:


> I can go for those feat replacements.
> 
> Updated




So what have we left now?


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2015)

In the past, the CC has typically used CR, at least by my memory (since you have the database downloaded, presumably you could check some templates).

I think we just have the anti-dragon stats.  I'll do that soon!


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2015)

freyar said:


> In the past, the CC has typically used CR, at least by my memory (since you have the database downloaded, presumably you could check some templates).




Let me have a quick look...

In no particular order*, the first dozen templates with spell resistance I saw were:

Skeletal Warrior = level-based.
Foo Creature = HD-based.
Warden Beast = CR-based.
Beast of Chaos = flat number.
Lamia Noble = flat number.
False Keraptis = HD-based.
Death Knight: HD-based.
Per = flat number.
Undead Unseelie Faerie = HD-based.
Wraith-King = HD-based.
Shadowrath, Greater = CR-based.
Watch Ghost = HD-based.

So that's two CR-based, three flat numbers and seven HD-based (since the Skeletal Warrior's levels are effectively the same as HD for this purpose).

So I'm still favouring changing it to Hit Dice! 

*well, I ordered the monsters by file size, rather than date or time, to make the selection a bit random.



freyar said:


> I think we just have the anti-dragon stats.  I'll do that soon!




I take it that's a Freyar "soon" rather than a Cleon "soon".


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2015)

I wonder if you chose more recent ones if it would change the statistics...  But I'm willing to change to HD-based, I suppose.

It is freyar soon, but I'm pretty motivated to get this one finished.  I'll set aside some time.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2015)

freyar said:


> I wonder if you chose more recent ones if it would change the statistics...  But I'm willing to change to HD-based, I suppose.




That seems plausible, since the two most recent ones (the Warden Beast and Greater Shadowrath) are the CR-based ones in that dozen.

Unfortunately, viewing the folder I have my monsters saved in file-date order won't help much, since I saved most of them alphabetically in one huge session. Those added since then have file dates that roughly match the creation date, but unfortunately the only two templates-with-SR amongst them are the two mentioned above.

I've got a copy of the creature conversion web-page with the monster's creation dates, but I don't think it'd be a good use of my time going through it, sorting all the templates in chronological order, then checking them for SR.

I've got other things I should really be doing, so cheerio for now!



freyar said:


> It is freyar soon, but I'm pretty motivated to get this one finished.  I'll set aside some time.




That's what I though. Well an undead creature is immune to aging effects, so this conversion doesn't have to worry about how long it'll take...


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2015)

Updated.

I think it might be done unless we want to add tactics.  Do check the math, though.

Notes: I didn't apply the Weapon Focus (greatsword) or Imp Crit (greatsword) feats to the thrown greatsword, since that seems like a different "proficiency."
We also might want to rethink the +1d6 damage plus +1d6 per two HD extra damage of Improved Weapon Throwing.  Unless we think it needs a really strong motive to throw a weapon away, though I guess that was the reason. It just seems a touch overpowered.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2015)

freyar said:


> Updated.
> 
> I think it might be done unless we want to add tactics.  Do check the math, though.
> 
> Notes: I didn't apply the Weapon Focus (greatsword) or Imp Crit (greatsword) feats to the thrown greatsword, since that seems like a different "proficiency."




Those feats should apply to the thrown greatsword. Weapon Focus says "+1 bonus on all attack rolls" and Improved Critical says "when using the weapon". There's nothing limiting it to a particular technique.



freyar said:


> We also might want to rethink the +1d6 damage plus +1d6 per two HD extra damage of Improved Weapon Throwing.  Unless we think it needs a really strong motive to throw a weapon away, though I guess that was the reason. It just seems a touch overpowered.




I think that was part of the idea. He also only gets one attack per round with improved weapon throwing, which is a pretty significant limitation.

Hold on a second, I just looked at that special attack and there's no "as a standard action" in it - did we forget to include it? It's certainly overpowered if he can iterative attack with it!


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't think you can attack iteratively with a thrown weapon --- you've thrown it away!  Unless it's returning, maybe.  But we probably should put "as a standard action" in there.

Any other number issues?


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2015)

freyar said:


> I don't think you can attack iteratively with a thrown weapon --- you've thrown it away!




All you need is *Quick Draw* to ready the weapon as a free action and you can chuck them as fast as monsterously possible. It just means the Undead Dragon Slayer would have to carry LOTS of greatswords. 



freyar said:


> Unless it's returning, maybe.




We cheated giving that Animal Lord iterative attacks with a _returning_ weapon - standard _returning_ causes the weapon to return just before the thrower's next turn, too late for an iterative attack.

I didn't feel guilt about it - they are EPIC creatures, after all, so I'm willing to handwave the problem away.



freyar said:


> But we probably should put "as a standard action" in there.




Yes, let's just put in "as a standard action". That ought to clear away the problem.



freyar said:


> Any other number issues?




I haven't had time to read through the latest update, but from what I remember I didn't notice any other numerical problems the last time I checked it.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2015)

OK, when you do get a chance to check through, I'll update with those feasts and the "standard action" line.


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2015)

freyar said:


> OK, when you do get a chance to check through, I'll update with those feasts and the "standard action" line.




It'll probably have to wait until tomorrow. I'm not feeling very energetic right now, so might miss something.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2015)

Take your time.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2015)

freyar said:


> Take your time.




Yes, it'll take at least two or three months to check the numbers properly.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2015)

Cleon said:


> Yes, it'll take at least two or three months to check the numbers properly.




Okay, the basic stats are fine (hardly surprising as we haven't changed its abilities). I'd prefer to have the magic equipment in the AC and attack lines italicized - e.g. "_+1 adamantine greatsword_" - but apart from that it's fine.

However, there are a couple of errors in the Anti-Dragon stats.

As I believe I mentioned before, Weapon feats in greatsword still apply when he's *throwing* the greatsword, so he should get all their benefits. His thrown greatsword damage also appears to be short a point - I make it +5 (Str) +3 (magic) +6 (favoured enemy) = +14.

*Attack:* _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +22 melee (4d6+16/17-20) or _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str) +15 ranged (1d8+12/×3) or _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +22 ranged (11d6+14/17-20)
*Full Attack:* _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +22/+17/+12 melee (4d6+16/17-20) or _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str) +15/+10/+5 ranged (1d8+12/×3) or _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_ +22 ranged (11d6+14/17-20)

Oh, and his possessions list appears to have gone AWOL. It needs:

*Equipment:* _+2 mithral full plate_, _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_, _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str), 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows, 10 adamantine arrows, _boots of speed_, _ring of protection +1_, _cloak of resistance +1_, _wand of inflict light wounds_, 134 gp


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2015)

I haven't gone back to correct the use of those feats yet (or added "as a standard action" to weapon throwing).  I'll go do that as well as add the possessions.  We don't put that in the actual statblock, do we?


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2015)

freyar said:


> I haven't gone back to correct the use of those feats yet (or added "as a standard action" to weapon throwing).  I'll go do that as well as add the possessions.  We don't put that in the actual statblock, do we?




We normally tag equipment in just after Skills.


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2015)

Rather than make Weapon Throwing a standard action, why don't we make it a full attack action, like we did for bind wings?  That would keep them from iterative attacks. Plus it makes somewhat more sense for an attack.  I'm going to make the updates like that, so we can see how it looks (we can always change to standard action later).

I've put in some tactics also (just to move this along  ), so see what you think.

Updated (finished?).


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2015)

freyar said:


> Rather than make Weapon Throwing a standard action, why don't we make it a full attack action, like we did for bind wings?  That would keep them from iterative attacks. Plus it makes somewhat more sense for an attack.  I'm going to make the updates like that, so we can see how it looks (we can always change to standard action later).




I'd prefer to keep it a standard action. That way they can also take a move action and throw the weapon on the move - which is something people often do in the real world when trying to add range and impact to their hurled objects.

Come to think of it, I'd prefer both Bind Wings and Stifle Breath to be standard actions. We allowed Dazzling Display to be used as a standard action, and that probably involves a lot more twirling of weaponry than Bind Wings and Stifle Breath, which could just be a matter of hitting the dragon once in just the right way.

Actually, I'd consider cutting the "standard action" from Dazzling Display and just leave the "part of a full attack action" bit, then we can make the "Improved Dazzling Display" the one that allows it to be done as a standard action. Also, we might have the Improved version having a reduced attack penalty.

I have a suspicion when we finished Dazzling Display we just copy-and-pasted the text to use as the basis for some of the subsequent special attacks, which is how it got a bit messy.



freyar said:


> I've put in some tactics also (just to move this along  ), so see what you think.
> 
> Updated (finished?).




Well, sample creature for a template don't require a tactic entry, but if you want to add some there's no reason we can't.

The tactics look fine to me, except I'd add something about it using the _haste_ power of its _boots of speed_.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2015)

What kind of precedents do we have for attacks being standard actions?  I initially had some awkward wording, and I can't remember how other abilities phrase it.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2015)

freyar said:


> What kind of precedents do we have for attacks being standard actions?  I initially had some awkward wording, and I can't remember how other abilities phrase it.




Erm, special attacks are standard actions by default surely. It's making them other than standard actions that's unusual.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2015)

Ehh, a normal single attack is a specific type of standard action, so calling it out is a bit unusual.  Actually, since all attacks are standard (other than full attacks, which are full-round), why do we need to spell this out?


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## Cleon (Feb 18, 2015)

freyar said:


> Ehh, a normal single attack is a specific type of standard action, so calling it out is a bit unusual.  Actually, since all attacks are standard (other than full attacks, which are full-round), why do we need to spell this out?




There's also attacks of opportunity, plus a few corner cases involving powers that allow a creature to exceed the normal action economy.

I believe we called out it as being a standard action since if we said it operated as a normal (e.g. melee) attack they'd be able to use the ability as part of a full attack routine - like a trip or disarm attack, which can be done multiple times by a combatant who has multiple melee attacks in a round. For that matter, if it's a melee attack they could even do it as an attack of opportunity.

It's just for clarity, really.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2015)

Updated to standard actions (and the tiny bit of tactics for the boots). How's it look?


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## Cleon (Feb 20, 2015)

freyar said:


> Updated to standard actions (and the tiny bit of tactics for the boots). How's it look?




I'm not that keen on the first sentence of the Weapon Throwing. How about "An undead dragon can throw any melee weapon or throwing weapon at a dragon as a standard action."

Also, why are the tactics suddenly female - undead are genderless, and we've been using "it" as a descriptor in the rest of the text.

 Given time to prepare for battle with a dragon, this undead dragon slayer enhances its combat abilities with spells, starting with _freedom of movement_ and _protection from energy_. The undead dragon slayer opens combat with a bind wings attack against a single dragon, but begins with a dazzling display when fighting multiple dragons. During combat, it uses its sneak attack whenever possible and employs its smite dragon and _true strike_ abilities opportunistically. If a moderately weakened dragon attempts escape, the undead dragon slayer will throw its greatsword as a way to finish the dragon off. It typically uses its _boots of speed_ early in combat, especially against particularly tough or multiple foes.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2015)

I can edit Weapon Throwing (and the improved version).  

Samples usually pick a gender, and I know intelligent undead maintain the gender they had in life, especially if they keep their normal bodies. But I can remove the gender if you insist.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2015)

freyar said:


> I can edit Weapon Throwing (and the improved version).
> 
> Samples usually pick a gender, and I know intelligent undead maintain the gender they had in life, especially if they keep their normal bodies. But I can remove the gender if you insist.




I'd rather remove it for the sake of consistency.


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2015)

That's done.  So, all done?


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2015)

freyar said:


> That's done.  So, all done?




You forgot to add the sample creature's combat gear:

*Equipment:* _+2 mithral full plate_, _+1 adamantine dragon bane greatsword_, _+1 composite longbow_ (+5 Str), 40 cold iron arrows, 30 silver arrows, 10 adamantine arrows, _boots of speed_, _ring of protection +1_, _cloak of resistance +1_, _wand of inflict light wounds_, 134 gp



freyar said:


> So, all done?




Well personally I'd italicize the spell names in the special abilities - as well as the special ability titles themselves.

The spells in question are:

_Anti-Dragon Evocation (Sp):_ — _fireball_ and _flame strike_.

_Bind Wings (Su):_ — _feather fall_.

_Enchant Dragon (Sp):_ — _charm person_.

_Scry Dragon (Sp):_ — _detect evil_, _locate object_, _detect undead_ and _detect thoughts_.

_Transmute Dragon (Sp):_ — _reduce person_.

_True Strike (Sp):_ — _true strike_.

Oh, and I'd rather you had an em-dash in the damage reduction and Con scores than a hyphen, e.g. "DR 5/—" and "Con: —".

But those are just formatting niggles, I think we're done with this critter once you've added the equipment in.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2015)

Equipment is right there under skills in the statblock, at least when I look at it.

How do you put an emdash in vbulletin code, anyway?


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2015)

freyar said:


> Equipment is right there under skills in the statblock, at least when I look at it.




Oh, right, I see the problem.

Equipment goes after a monster's Skills *description* (if any), not the Skills in the statblock - e.g. it's inserted after the "Skills: An arkelweezil has a +7 racial bonus to Perform (pratfalls) and a +8 racial bonus to Swim." bit.

The sample creature doesn't have a Skills description, so the equipment ought to go after were it would have been - which is right at the end, just before "Originally appeared".



freyar said:


> How do you put an emdash in vbulletin code, anyway?




I normally just copy and paste the character, but you could try using the ASCII code for it — it's 0151 in decimal or 0097 in hex.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2015)

Funny, I think I moved it because I originally had possessions down at the bottom and you didn't see it.  Well, moving...

Done.


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## Cleon (Mar 1, 2015)

freyar said:


> Funny, I think I moved it because I originally had possessions down at the bottom and you didn't see it.  Well, moving...
> 
> Done.




Okay, that's another one down!

Any preferences for our next entry, or would you rather rest this thread for a while.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2015)

Huzzah!!

We can rest the thread unless there's something pressing here for one of our sets of 10.  Though, if the CC stays down, the batches don't matter much...


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2015)

freyar said:


> Huzzah!!
> 
> We can rest the thread unless there's something pressing here for one of our sets of 10.  Though, if the CC stays down, the batches don't matter much...




We've currently only got four sets-of-ten, and they've all got a conversion in the works.

Which reminds me, it's been a while since I updated the conversion lists.


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