# Converting Forgotten Realms monsters



## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

It's about time we started a thread for the remaining Realms creatures.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

*Haundar*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Icebergs, arctic valleys
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 12 (D)
HIT DICE: 20
THAC0: 1
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16 (2d8)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30' long, 10' tall)
MORALE: Elite (15)
XP VALUE: 12,000

The haundar is a gargantuan ice-slug. A very thick, flat shell covers most of the haundar’s back and its head. It is articulated in order to ease the creature’s movement. The shell and the remainder of the haundar’s body are white, with a slight green shimmer.

Thick fur covers the part of the haundar’s body that its shell does not protect. The creature maintains body temperature thanks to a very thick, nutritious blubber under its skin. The largest quantity of body fat is located under the thickest part of the creature’s shell, about 10 feet away from the head.

Like other common slugs, the haundar uses two retractile eyestalks, and two extra pseudopods to see and feel its way. Its mouth is located between the two lower pseudopods. The haundar’s mouth is filled with an array of shark-like teeth that grow continuously. The haundar has infravision.

The haundar is capable of levitating, and moving through the air at a slow pace. It cannot fly in blizzard conditions.

Combat: The haundar fights primarily with its mouth, inflicting 2d8 points of damage per bite. Otherwise, it uses its acid spit which can reach a range of 12 feet. The haundar’s acid strikes the target with an attack roll sufficient to hit Armor Class 0. The target consists of everything within a 10-foot radius from the point of impact. The acid causes 4d8 points of damage. A successful save vs. breath weapon allows the acid to cause only half damage.
Victims who fail their saving throw must check all of their equipment to see if acid has affected any item.

The armored shell of the haundar is Armor Class 2. The unprotected parts of its body are Armor Class 6. If the haundar’s eyestalks or sensory pseudopods are attacked, the haundar instantly retracts them to avoid wounds. It keeps them retracted until the end of the combat encounter. The haundar can rely on its sense of smell to fight, but would do so with a -3 attack penalty.

Exposed stalks are Armor Class 8. Any single attack causing 10 points of damage or more either severs or incapacitates one eyestalk or pseudopod. The haundar needs at least one eyestalk to travel and hunt. Without its eyestalks, the haundar eventually dies of hunger. The pseudopods are sensory organs that tell the haundar which direction it flies, and at which altitude and speed. It cannot fly without at least one pseudopod. The severed stalks regrow within a month.

Habitat/Society: The haundar lives in large rocky caves, huge cracks in the ice, or caverns dug into the ice. Its sleeps there, protects itself from blizzard conditions, and reproduces there. Occasionally, the lair connects with haun broods (q.v.). These worms are common parasites of the haundar.

The haundar is a migrating creature. If not hosting haun parasites, it travels the icy desert, trying to remain within a specific range of temperatures. In summer it moves north, while in winter it travels south. Migration patterns follow that of other beings, such as bears, seals, moose, and sometimes man.  

When it is the farthest north and when food becomes scarce, it begins the mating season. Haundars are hermaphrodites, being both male and female. In order to begin the reproductive cycle, the haundar must fly almost continually for days. At last, it returns to its lair and lays 4d4 eggs. Exhausted, the haundar goes dormant for several weeks.

The eggs have little chance of hatching. Successful reproduction happens only once in a haundar’s lifetime, for the hatchlings feed on the parent while it is dormant. As an average, two hatchlings become adults, and one successfully reproduces. Hatchlings grow at the rate of 1 HD (or 1½ feet a year) if properly fed.  Haundars live as long as 60 years.

Ecology: The haundar is a dangerous predator. It feeds on almost anything that it can catch. The haundar is rare, since it is one of the main elements in the sha.az (q.v.) diet. Haundars indeed provide a very large, single source of meat that can feed an entire sha.az hive for weeks. Its blubber is used for oils. Its eyestalks are in demand for potions of infravision, and its lower pseudopods can be used as a potent ingredient in potions of levitation. The armor can be broken into smaller pieces and re-used as plate armor elements. A complete suit of armor made of this material weighs half its equivalent metal armor for the same protection, and is acid resistant. It also costs twice as much to build.

Some northern knight orders may be willing to pay dearly for haundar shell pieces.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11)(1991).


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Increasing a giant slug to Gargantuan yields...

Str 34, Dex 8, Con 25, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 7

Does that look OK?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Hmm, do you think we should bump the Str for 20 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2008)

Str 34 seems fair, methinks


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Then it sounds good.

How do we want to handle the multiple ACs?  Definitely should allow sundering against eyestalks, as the hydra, I think.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Sure, sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.

What of this should we retain?

Acid Bite (Ex): A giant slug's bite deals 1d6 points of acid damage in addition to any other damage it deals. The damage is not doubled on a critical hit.

Acid Spit (Ex): Giant slugs can spit a ball of caustic saliva with a range of 20 feet, as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals 6d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit. Clothing and armor worn by the target of this spit dissolves and becomes useless immediately unless the item succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Rubbery Form (Ex): The body of a giant slug is very rubbery, allowing it to squeeze through spaces normally too small for its bulk. A giant slug can move through a space 10 feet wide without squeezing. A giant slug can also move through a space 5 feet wide by taking the standard penalties for squeezing.

Skills: A giant slug has a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Acid Bite looks like a good thing to keep, and the numbers seem fair, too.

Definitely want Acid Spit or some variant.  The Haundar's spit seems to deal less damage, but it acts like a splash weapon instead.  Do we want to keep that approach or just modify it to fit the giant slug's attack?

Since this has large armor plates, I don't think Rubbery Form works.

I'm neutral on the Move Silently bonus, but I think a Hide bonus in ice & snow is appropriate.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

freyar said:


> Acid Bite looks like a good thing to keep, and the numbers seem fair, too.




Cool. I'll add it.



freyar said:


> Definitely want Acid Spit or some variant.  The Haundar's spit seems to deal less damage, but it acts like a splash weapon instead.  Do we want to keep that approach or just modify it to fit the giant slug's attack?




I'm fine either way.  Anyone else?



freyar said:


> Since this has large armor plates, I don't think Rubbery Form works.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> I'm neutral on the Move Silently bonus, but I think a Hide bonus in ice & snow is appropriate.




Agreed on this as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

I think that the acid spit should be a burst effect, more like fireball, than a ranged touch attack.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think that the acid spit should be a burst effect, more like fireball, than a ranged touch attack.



Sounds like we can all agree on that.  10 foot burst, DC 27 (Con-based) for half damage?  Still 4d8?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Here's some more combat text. 

A haundar can be blinded by severing its eyestalks.  To sever an eyestalk, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a haundar’s eyestalks from any position in which he could strike at the haundar itself. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a haundar’s eyestalk when the creature bites at him. Each of a haundar's eyestalks has 10 hit points. Losing an eyestalk deals 5hp of damage to the body.  A blinded haundar will retreat from melee and attack only to defend itself.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

I like it!

Updated.



> Thick fur covers the part of the haundar’s body that its shell does not protect. The creature maintains body temperature thanks to a very thick, nutritious blubber under its skin. The largest quantity of body fat is located under the thickest part of the creature’s shell, about 10 feet away from the head.




I need to find that ability about not needing Fort saves to avoid nonlethal damage in cold weather...



> The haundar is capable of levitating, and moving through the air at a slow pace. It cannot fly in blizzard conditions.




We probably need a magical flight ability, like the beholder.



> Its blubber is used for oils. Its eyestalks are in demand for potions of infravision, and its lower pseudopods can be used as a potent ingredient in potions of levitation. The armor can be broken into smaller pieces and re-used as plate armor elements. A complete suit of armor made of this material weighs half its equivalent metal armor for the same protection, and is acid resistant. It also costs twice as much to build.




What to make of all that?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Shade said:


> I need to find that ability about not needing Fort saves to avoid nonlethal damage in cold weather...



Well, we could easily write it again, but I guess we'd like the same name.



> We probably need a magical flight ability, like the beholder.



You know, the SRD/MM doesn't do a good job separating which critters have magical or non-magical flight...  Should we just state in the flavor text that its flight is magical?



> What to make of all that?



Probably flavor text for the potion ingredients.  

For the armor, I suggest the following sidebar (modified from dragonhide):

Haundar armor: Armorsmiths can work with the armor plates of a haundar to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One Gargantuan haundar provides enough armor to produce a suit of masterwork armor for a Huge creature. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a Large creature, or one suit of masterwork half-plate for a Medium creature, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a Small creature. (Multiple haundars can be used to create armor for larger creatures.)  In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor.

Because haundar armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.

Haundar armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.  It weighs half as much as the corresponding type of metal armor.

Haundar armor has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 7.

(I made it not as hard as dragonhide.)

Speaking of haundar armor, do we want to put in the unarmored "soft spots"?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Here we go, let's just reverse this:

Heat Tolerance (Ex): A griveling never needs to make Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in regions of extreme heat.

Thus...

Cold Tolerance (Ex): A haundar never needs to make Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in regions of extreme cold.

Looking at the original text again, the magical flight seems closer to a beholder's flight than the 3e levitate.  How does this work?

Flight (Ex): A haundar's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 30 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.  Because its flight is dependent upon sensors within its psuedopods, a haundar that has lost both pseudopods may not fly until at least one has been regrown.

(Note that we'll need to add pseudopod severing to the eyestalk severing).

The armor looks great!


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Let's add a couple of short paragraphs to the end of the bit about severing eyestalks:

The haundar's sensory pseudopods can be severed in the same manner as the eyestalks.  Pseudopods have 10 hp, and losing a pseudopod deals 5 hp damage to the body.  A haundar without pseudopods will not fly due to lack of sensory information.

A severed eyestalk or pseudopod will regrow in 1 month.  If a haundar's eyestalks or pseudopods are attacked, it will retract them into its body, so they are not vulnerable to sundering.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

All that looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> Speaking of haundar armor, do we want to put in the unarmored "soft spots"?




We could give them a vulnerability to critical hits to reflect that, I suppose.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> 
> 
> We could give them a vulnerability to critical hits to reflect that, I suppose.



Sounds like a good idea.  So they take +50% damage from crits or something?  Or the crit multiplier is treated as being 1 higher?

Revisiting the armor: 
I feel like I've seen somewhere (but don't see it in the SRD) that dragonhide armor doesn't take damage from the dragon's associated energy type.  If I'm not delusional, should we then say that haundar armor doesn't take damage from acid?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Sounds like a good idea.  So they take +50% damage from crits or something?  Or the crit multiplier is treated as being 1 higher?




How about something like this?

Weak Spot (Ex):  A haundar has several weak spots in its armored shell.  As a result, a successful critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon is treated as if its multiplier were one higher.  (Thus, a longsword would deal triple damage, and a greataxe quadruple).



freyar said:


> Revisiting the armor:
> I feel like I've seen somewhere (but don't see it in the SRD) that dragonhide armor doesn't take damage from the dragon's associated energy type.  If I'm not delusional, should we then say that haundar armor doesn't take damage from acid?




I believe that was a specific variant, possibly from Dragon Magazine.  You might also be thinking of the original text from the swamp giants.   Regardless, I'm fine with throwing in some acid resistance.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

I like the weak spots!

I'm ambivalent about the armor.  Maybe I'm thinking of dragoncraft items or something, but I don't think we necessarily need to make this armor better than dragonhide.  Functionally equivalent is good for me if it is for everyone else.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 12?  (The similar 21-HD Greater Seryulin is only CR 10, but it has lower damage output)

Advancement: 21-40 HD (Gargantuan); 41-60 HD (Colossal)?

A haundar is 30 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Knightfall (Sep 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> How about something like this?
> 
> Weak Spot (Ex):  A haundar has several weak spots in its armored shell.  As a result, a successful critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon is treated as if its multiplier were one higher.  (Thus, a longsword would deal triple damage, and a greataxe quadruple).



That's an excellent idea.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 12?  (The similar 21-HD Greater Seryulin is only CR 10, but it has lower damage output)
> 
> ...



That all sounds good.  Uhh, 25000 lb?  (Between remorhaz and purple worm.)


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.  Are we finished?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Looks good, but I'm a little sad you left out the bit about hatchlings eating their parent.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Egads!  We can't leave that out.  

Fixed.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Shade said:


> Egads!  We can't leave that out.
> 
> Fixed.



Excellent!  That bit of flavor was just too good to lose.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

*Haun*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic ice pack and glaciers
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Brood
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Nil, W
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic (evil)
NO. APPEARING: 2-5 (1-4 + 1)
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: ½ (1-4 hp)
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (4' long)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: 175

PSIONIC STRENGTH*:
Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
3 2/2/7 II/M- = Int 120
Psychokenesis--Sciences: telekinesis. Devotions: animate objects, inertial barrier.
Telepathy-Sciences: mindlink. Devotions: aversion (to worms) contact, inflict pain, invisibility, repugnance.
(*) For use with the Complete Psionics Handbook; non-psionic alternatives are given in the Combat Section.

Hauns are chaotic ice worms with mental powers. They often parasite haundars (q.v.) which they use to travel outside their frozen tunnel lairs.

A haun looks like a furry gray maggot with occasional purple or black warts. Its small, slimy face is devoid of hair, and features two tiny black eyes and a mouth with serrated teeth. This fat worm undulates and jiggles like gelatin in order to move. Its internal organs create constant waves and swells visible underneath its skin. A haun often produces slight hums, growls, clicks, snaps, pops, and other chattering sounds, depending on its humor, which are its primary communication method. It can also use its psionic mindlink ability to communicate quietly.

A haun is only capable of a slow slither. However, once per turn it can compress its body, and release enough energy to leap up or forward. In this manner, it can leap forward up to 18 feet (3d6 feet) or upward up to 9 feet (1d6 +3 feet). A haun can burrow through ice at half its normal slithering speed.

Hauns are notorious parasites of the haundar. Haundar are huge slugs that hauns use, literally speaking, as moving fortresses.  When one is found, a haun brood attempts to get closer and then leaps on its tail. From there, they can burrow under the haundar’s thick armor. The brood usually carves out a hollow chamber under the thickest part of the armor on the haundar’s back. This is done at no damage to the haundar, since this part of its body is mostly fat. The hauns cut out small slits into the carapace, in the manner of a fortress.

Hauns can spin silk to close off openings, fabricate warm, comfortable cocoons, or store food. Hauns are naturally incapable of making armor or using weapons or objects of any kind. They can, however, psionically animate objects.

Combat: The best hauns can physically do is force an opponent to fall over another haun strategically placed behind him, and try to bite him when on the floor. Hauns cannot bite anything higher than 2 feet above them because of their small size. Once per encounter, however, they may attack someone by leaping. Hauns always try to avoid getting personally caught in a melee. To attack foes, hauns much prefer riding inside their haundars. They direct the huge creatures to crush foes in their way.

As an alternative to psionics, hauns can once a day use shield, invisibility, scare, suggestion, and telekinesis. Otherwise, hauns use their psionic abilities to harm their foes.  Initially, they remain invisible, and inflict pain or provoke repugnance among their foes.  Otherwise, hauns activate their inertial barrier, and cause aversion while they attempt to flee.

Habitat/Society: Hauns live in tunnel networks in the ice. Several broods can share a large network. They are fiercely independent, and recognize no leader among them. Hauns are prone to incessant palaver and sudden, often short-lived quarrels that may or may not lead to a consensus decision (50% chance at best).

Hauns prey on sha’az (q.v.) eggs because they contain a substance reducing resistance to mental contact. The eggs allow automatic success for psionic contact and mindlink (except on a roll of 20), and so at half the required PSPs (Psionic Strength Points, rounded down) or a period of a week per egg. When inside the haundar, the parasites inject the egg’s contents into the haundar’s blood.

With these eggs, hauns easily establish and maintain a psionic mindlink with haundars and make it understand that if it does not obey, pain will soon follow. Haundar behavior ultimately changes after years of this treatment, and they become totally submissive. Owning a haundar is a status symbol among haun broods.

Ecology: Hauns feed on lichen and rotten flesh. They routinely slither through shallow tunnels, seeking carcasses left by predators.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11)(1991).


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Hmm, magical beast (psionic) or maybe aberration (psionic)?  What do you think?

It lists SLAs, but it's not clear to me if these are SLAs as opposed to psionics (ie, non-psionic version) or in addition to psionics.  What do you think?

Edit: worth doing a swarm version, too, maybe?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

They strike me more as magical beasts.

I got the impression that the SLAs were replacements for psionics, but I could be wrong.

Dunno about swarm...they're pretty big.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

I was leaning toward magical beast, as well, so let's do that.
Let's use the SLAs as a "nonpsionic sidebar" or vice versa.

The reason I suggest swarm is that they always seem to come in big groups, but it's certainly not necessary.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Exceptional (15-16).   Cha is probably comparable.

The similarly-sized and shaped giant maggot has Str 7, Dex 13, Con 13.

So maybe Str 7, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16?


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  

Collecting some thoughts:
They've got a burrowing speed at half base.  Seems like they also have a 1/day leaping ability.  For the psionics, seems like psion manifester levels would be appropriate (as opposed to psi-like abilities).  There's also some kind of web ability, but it doesn't seem like they can throw it.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Environment, alignment seem right.

Do you prefer PLAs vs psion levels?

Want to make the leap ability partly psionic?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Yeah, I think I prefer PLAs to psion levels, since they are such low-HD.

I think there is another creature with a psionic leap ability...now where was that?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Makes sense, PLA it is.

Yeah, psionic leaping sounds familiar.  Was it one of the Dark Sun beasties we did recently (daggoran, maybe)?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Hmmm...not the daggoran.

I noticed the Mental Leap feat, but that is just a +10 bonus on Jump checks.

I suppose we could just create something from scratch.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

> A haun is only capable of a slow slither. However, once per turn it can compress its body, and release enough energy to leap up or forward. In this manner, it can leap forward up to 18 feet (3d6 feet) or upward up to 9 feet (1d6 +3 feet). A haun can burrow through ice at half its normal slithering speed.




Maybe this doesn't seem so psionic after all.  Want to borrow leap from the cave locust?  We can go with 20 ft horizontal or 10 ft vertical.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Sounds good.



> PSIONIC STRENGTH*:
> Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
> 3 2/2/7 II/M- = Int 120
> Psychokenesis--Sciences: telekinesis. Devotions: animate objects, inertial barrier.
> ...




Telekinesis = Telekinetic Force
Animate Object = Control Object
Inertial Barrier = same
Mindlink = same
Aversion = same
Inflict Pain = same
Invisibility = ? 
Repugnance = ?


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

Maybe concealing amorpha (or greater version) for invisibility?  Aversion for repulsion (maybe the haun is the thing the target is averted from)?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

> The best hauns can physically do is force an opponent to fall over another haun strategically placed behind him, and try to bite him when on the floor.




That sounds more like telekinetic maneuver than telekinetic force.

So...

Psi-Like Abilities: At will—mindlink; 3/day—aversion (DC x), concealing amorpha, control object, inflict pain (DC 11); 1/day—inertial barrier, telekinetic manuever. Manifester level x. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We can heighten the manifester level/augment for certain abilities if we are so inclined.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Seems like a good list.  How are these looking?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested manifester and caster levels?

EDIT:  We have a problem.  Neither mindlink nor telepathic bond (or even telepathy, for that matter) will work on the mindless haundars.  We'll need a special ability that allows them to communicate with their haundar hosts (or raise haundar Int to 3 so telepathy works on them).


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm going to somewhat arbitrarily say that we should pick ML/CL of 5.

I get the impression that mindlink is mostly for controlling the haundar, so let's bump the haundar Int to 3.  Now we need to add skills and feats.  Let's max out Spot for the skill (those eyestalks should be good for something).  Some feat suggestions: Ability Focus (spit acid burst), Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Snatch, Flyby Attack, Hover, Power Attack?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Sounds good.  Here's the updated Haundar.

I went with Skill Focus (Spot) rather than Alertness, since Listen +2 is kind of pointless at that CR.  

Updated Haun, too.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

The haundar looks fine.  Or else we can go with a 12/11 split on Spot/Listen with Alertness.  Your call.

Haun is looking good.  Any SAs left?  I'd say weight=10 to 15lb.  Let's give them Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

The only other SA we might need is some sort of "burrow into flesh" ability to explain how they get into a haundar.  

Skills: 20

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more

Environment: Cold deserts?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x (Type W is a lair treasure of 5-30 1,000s of gold, 1-8 1,000s of platinum, 2-16 gems, 1-8 objects, Any 2 magic items)

Alignment: Usually chaotic, often evil?

Advancement: By character class (favored class: psion)?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

All suggestions look good.  

Burrow into Flesh (Ex): A haun may burrow under the skin of any Large or larger creature by chewing.  This process does 1d4 hp damage per round for 1d6 rounds (until the haun has dug out a shelter for itself).  Haundar and similarly blubbery creatures do not take damage because the haun prefers to dig into the fatty tissue.

Skills: max out Autohypnosis, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Spot?  If you don't think Autohypnosis works, what about Move Silently?

Feat: maybe something fun like Rapid Metabolism?

CR 1?

Maybe Standard treasure with flavor that this belongs to a brood in its lair?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

I like all that except CR.  They have some fairly potent PLAs for low levels, despite their small HD.  Perhaps 2?


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2008)

CR 2 is fine.  I wasn't too sure about that CR.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Great!  It looks like we're ready to move on...

*Burnbones*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: High to genius (14-18)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Searing touch, heat aura, priest spells, can cast spell and attack simultaneously
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better magical weapon to hit, spell immunities, immune to poison, immune to fire, quarter damage from cold, half damage by weapon type, turned only by lawful good priests
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 12,000

The early days of the Banedeath did not go well for Cyric, the (then) new god of the dead, and many of his fledgling clerics were slaughtered at the hands of powerful Banites. Cyric soon after empowered select members of his clerical faithful with a portion of his power'so much power, in fact, that these clerics' mortal forms dissolved into nothing more than mere bones and the fiery power of the Dark Sun. These new undead, burnbones, are similar to the blazing bones found in the ruins of Myth Drannor in appearance, but that is where the similarity ends. Burnbones tend to wear the symbol of Cyric on themselves (as a holy symbol, for instance) as a sign of their devotion.

Combat: A burnbones causes 2d10 points of damage with its supernatural flaming touch, affecting even creatures or magical items that are immune to the harmful effects of fire or magical fire. Anyone standing within 10 feet of the creature also suffers 1d3 points of heat damage; magical spells and items can prevent this damage. In addition to its fiery attack, a burnbones can cast priest spells as it did in life. The creature has the spellcasting abilities of a cleric of at least 12th level. If the cleric was of higher level in life, it still retains its level for spellcasting purposes after the transformation. A burnbones requires no verbal, somatic, or material components to cast spells; the creature simply points its finger, and the spell issues forth. The casting time of the spell is unchanged for initiative purposes, and the spell (or another that the creature chooses of the same level) returns to its memory after a 24-hour period. A burnbones may attack with one hand and cast a spell with another simultaneously. Because of the way in which a burnbones casts a spell, it can never be interrupted during spellcasting and lose a spell. A burnbones is immune to all forms of normal and magical fire, and takes only a quarter of the normal damage from cold-based attacks. As an undead creature, the burnbones is also immune to sleep, charm and other mind-affecting enchantments, hold spells, and all poisons. Curative spells that restore hit points—such as cure light wounds—have the opposite effect on the creature, while the reverse of these spells cures damage. All weapons must be of +2 enchantment or greater to have any chance of striking a burnbones. Because a burnbones is a skeletal creature, slashing and piercing weapons only inflict half damage. A burnbones can only be turned by a cleric or priest of a lawful good faith. A burnbones is turned as a ghost. Holy water obtained from a lawful good faith acts like strong acid against these beings, causing 2d10 points of damage per vial. Other holy water is ineffectual.

Habitat/Society: Burnbones were created from Cyric's priesthood, and were chosen for their fanatical loyalty. This loyalty led quickly to a somewhat insane and paranoid state of mind after their transformations. Burnbones exist only to serve the greater glory of the Prince of Lies, bending to his every whim. To do otherwise causes the creatures insufferable pain and anguish. Considering the unstable nature of the god they serve, it is not unheard of for burnbones to be apparently working at cross purposes while still working under their god's direct orders. Cyric created nearly a two dozen of these creatures at the onset of the Banedeath, and their numbers were soon halved by Banites and the forces of good in the Heartlands. As his enemies discovered means by which to destroy the creatures, Cyric sent some of the remaining ones into hiding until needed, and created others as reinforcements. Cyric has created new burnbones only sporadically however, for he seems to be easily distracted, with the result that only a handful of burnbones are created every year.

Ecology: A burnbones is infused with a portion of Cyric's power, giving Cyric complete control over it when he so wishes. All of the burnbones created at the time of the Banedeath were a minimum of 12th level before their transformation. When Cyric infuses clerics of lesser level with power enough to increase their levels as burnbones, the increased power bums out their corporeal forms in a short period of time. The greater the difference between the cleric's original level and that of the enhanced burnbones, the shorter the existence of the burnbones. (A one-level difference will generally result in a creature that lasts a year. For each level greater the difference is, subtract a month from the duration of the creature's existence.) Burnbones that are not “overcharged” last until they are destroyed.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Zhentil Keep (1995).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

Template, definately. We may wish to expand its utility to followers of other chaotic evil gods, as opposed to just Cyric.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

Agreed.

Free Silent Spell and Still Spell on all spellcasting with no level slot cost?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 11, 2008)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

> INTELLIGENCE: High to genius (14-18)




Int +4 or higher?



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%




That equates to CR +9.



> A burnbones causes 2d10 points of damage with its supernatural flaming touch, affecting even creatures or magical items that are immune to the harmful effects of fire or magical fire.




Should we make it deal wholly fire damage with a special note of overcoming immunity, or make it more like flame strike where half the damage is divine?



> Anyone standing within 10 feet of the creature also suffers 1d3 points of heat damage; magical spells and items can prevent this damage.




We can modify this...

Fiery Aura (Ex): Anyone within 20 feet of a magmin must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of heat damage per round from the intense heat. The save DC is Constitution-based.



> In addition to its fiery attack, a burnbones can cast priest spells as it did in life. The creature has the spellcasting abilities of a cleric of at least 12th level. If the cleric was of higher level in life, it still retains its level for spellcasting purposes after the transformation.




Simply limit the template to 12th-level clerics (or ability to cast 6th-level divine spells?) with Cyric as patron deity?



> A burnbones requires no verbal, somatic, or material components to cast spells; the creature simply points its finger, and the spell issues forth. The casting time of the spell is unchanged for initiative purposes, and the spell (or another that the creature chooses of the same level) returns to its memory after a 24-hour period.




Go with Still and Silent spell as suggested above, or treat as SLAs?



> A burnbones may attack with one hand and cast a spell with another simultaneously.




Some ability that allows a single attack and single spell as a full-round action?  Or maybe allow an attack as a swift action when casting a spell?



> Because of the way in which a burnbones casts a spell, it can never be interrupted during spellcasting and lose a spell.




Automatically succeeds on Concentration checks?



> A burnbones is immune to all forms of normal and magical fire, and takes only a quarter of the normal damage from cold-based attacks. As an undead creature, the burnbones is also immune to sleep, charm and other mind-affecting enchantments, hold spells, and all poisons. Curative spells that restore hit points—such as cure light wounds—have the opposite effect on the creature, while the reverse of these spells cures damage.




Most of that is covered by undead type.  Also, immunity to fire and resistance to cold x?



> All weapons must be of +2 enchantment or greater to have any chance of striking a burnbones. Because a burnbones is a skeletal creature, slashing and piercing weapons only inflict half damage.




Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning (like a skeleton) and lawful (this seems more appropriate than magic based on the other abilities)?



> A burnbones can only be turned by a cleric or priest of a lawful good faith. A burnbones is turned as a ghost.




 +4 turn resistance vs. LG characters, turn immunity vs. rest?



> Holy water obtained from a lawful good faith acts like strong acid against these beings, causing 2d10 points of damage per vial. Other holy water is ineffectual.




Immunity to holy water unless created by a lawful good character?



> All of the burnbones created at the time of the Banedeath were a minimum of 12th level before their transformation. When Cyric infuses clerics of lesser level with power enough to increase their levels as burnbones, the increased power bums out their corporeal forms in a short period of time. The greater the difference between the cleric's original level and that of the enhanced burnbones, the shorter the existence of the burnbones. (A one-level difference will generally result in a creature that lasts a year. For each level greater the difference is, subtract a month from the duration of the creature's existence.) Burnbones that are not “overcharged” last until they are destroyed.




Something special for a creation section?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

As I said above-thread, I think the template should be broadened to pertain to followers of all chaotic evil deities. I like the idea of turning all of their spells into SLAs. 

BoVD and FC 2 established "hellfire", which is cosmetically fire but ignores all resistances and immunities to fire. Something similar seems reasonable.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> As I said above-thread, I think the template should be broadened to pertain to followers of all chaotic evil deities.




Good idea. 



demiurge1138 said:


> BoVD and FC 2 established "hellfire", which is cosmetically fire but ignores all resistances and immunities to fire. Something similar seems reasonable.




Yeah, something like that should work.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

In other news, I like the idea of them automatically casting defensively. These guys are powerful enough that we might want to go with DR 10/bludgeoning and lawful.

Give them cold vulnerability? I'm not really sure if they have the fire subtype...


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.  (500th monster for that thread!)


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

I'll second DR 10.

demiurge, these things are actually somewhat resistant to cold (both with what Shade has and in the orginal text).  Resistance to cold 10 is probably the right amount, though I could see an argument for 5 based on the fact that they're fiery.

The spell resistance line needs to say "burnbones" instead of "dark lord."

SLAs: should we just say that a burnbones prepares spells or gains spell slots as its divine caster class, but those spells are automatically converted to SLAs?  Does that mean metamagic feats cannot apply?  

Also, in the prereqs line, let's make it ability to cast 6th level divine spells or else divine caster level 12 (rather than divine spellcaster of 12th level, which feels slightly vague to me -- what about cleric 1/fighter 11, right?).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

Spells automatically convert to SLAs works for me, and I think the lack of metamagic is a good balance... although it could always take meta-SLA feats.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

What bothers me is that these, as clerics, might have taken metamagic feats "before" becoming burnboneses.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm torn on how to handle the SLAs.

On the one hand, we could simply "lock them in", selecting a number based upon the cleric level at the time the template is acquired (and allowing for adding additionals if further cleric levels are taken).

On the other hand, I could see keeping the current divine spellcasting, and stating that the daily spells selected are then treated as 1/day SLAs.   We could always state that they can be modified by Metamagic feats, prior to the "conversion" to SLAs.

A third option would be keeping the current divine spellcasting, and just stating that none of the spells require verbal, somatic, or material components.   That would allow for the use of Metamagic feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

...Hm.

Let's take the third option.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> ...Hm.
> 
> Let's take the third option.



The second and third are almost the same (except for spontaneous inflicting for clerics, I guess).  I'm agreed with the third also.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Like so?

Spells:  A burnbones continues to prepare and cast divine spells as it did in life.  However, as a gift from its dark deity, none of its spells require verbal, somatic, or material components. 



> A burnbones may attack with one hand and cast a spell with another simultaneously.




How's this?

Battle Casting (Ex?):  When making an attack or full attack, a burnbones may cast one spell each round as a swift action.  It may not use this ability in tandem with casting another spell.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Excellent, I missed that one!  Free quickening, almost.  Ex seems right, too, unless we also want to make this a gift from the dark deity.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Updated.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Int +4, Wis +x, Cha +x. Being undead, a burnbones has no Constitution score.

Environment: Any land or underground?
Organization: Solitary?
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +x.
Treasure: None (except holy symbol)?
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +x.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

Wisdom +4, Cha +4 sounds good.

Level adjustment is going to be tricky. The swift casting is really nice.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Indeed.

They are at least as good as a lich, at CR +2, LA +4.

They seem about as good at a death knight at CR +3, LA +5.

Swift casting might push them up to an even higher LA.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

CR+3, LA+6?

Fiery resolve needs to refer to spells rather than SLAs.  Other than that, looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Updated.

Time for a sample creature?


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2008)

If we want to go with the Cyric theme, an 11th or 12th level human cleric with Destruction and Trickery domains or else just Chaos and Evil domains if we want to be generic.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Destruction and Trickery sound better than Chaos and Evil.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Getting started with the sample...

12th-level human cleric
Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 12d8+12 (66 hp)
Initiative: -1 
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 9 (-1 Dex), touch 9, flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+10
Attack: Weapon +10 melee (xdx+1)
Full Attack: Weapon +10 melee (xdx+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Rebuke undead, spells 
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +8
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 14
Skills: 30
Feats: 5
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Cleric Spells Prepared: (Caster level 12th)
6th—2+1;
5th—2+1;
4th—3+1;
3rd—5+1;
2nd—5+1;
1st—6+1;
0—6;
*Domain spell. Deity: Cyric. Domains: Destruction, Trickery.

The human cleric presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments and level increases: Str 13, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 14.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Skills: Concentration, Bluff?

Feats: Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell, Extend Spell, Widen Spell, Weapon Focus (x)

Abilities go to Str 13, Dex 8, Con -, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 18.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Added to Sample Creature section of Homebrews entry.

Let's also mix in a healthy dose of Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft.

We have a bit of a discrepancy.  We have treasure listed as None (except holy symbol), but the attack lines still list wielding a weapon.  Do we want to assume that they only use their touch (because the fiery aura melts everything), or revise the treasure entry to Standard?   I'd prefer the latter, because I'd imagine Cyric would still want them wielding his favored weapon.

Assuming the latter, Cyric's favored weapon is "Razor's Edge" (longsword), so let's go with that for the attack lines.

Weapon Focus (longsword) or Weapon Focus (searing touch)?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

I prefer standard treasure and the longsword as well.  However, I just realized that our cleric isn't proficient with longswords.  We could blow a feat on martial weapon prof, though.

Regarding Weapon Focus, if we keep that, I'd rather not use searing touch, since it seems likely the cleric would have taken the feat before getting the template (though I guess we could say the template applied at 11th level).  What do you think?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> I prefer standard treasure and the longsword as well.  However, I just realized that our cleric isn't proficient with longswords.  We could blow a feat on martial weapon prof, though.
> 
> Regarding Weapon Focus, if we keep that, I'd rather not use searing touch, since it seems likely the cleric would have taken the feat before getting the template (though I guess we could say the template applied at 11th level).  What do you think?




Good points.  Let's drop Widen Spell to make room for Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), and go with Weapon Focus (longsword).  Sound good?

Thoughts on the spell list?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Sure.

0 - Cure Minor Wounds, Inflict Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Resistance, Guidance?
1 - Bane, Entropic Shield, Cause Fear, Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Command + Inflict Light Wounds?
...


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

2nd - bull's strength, death knell, desecrate, hold person, invisibility (D), spiritual weapon

3rd - animate dead, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, contagion (D), magic vestment, speak with dead.

4th - confusion (D), dimensional anchor, freedom of movement, spell immunity

5th - false vision (D), flame strike, righteous might

6th - blade barrier, harm (D), planar ally

...these guys can still convert to inflict spells, because they're clerics, right?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah, they should be able to do inflicts spontaneously.  Not sure what I was thinking in 0th and 1st.  Want to go with an extra resistance at 0 and shield of faith at 1?  Could also go to disguise self for the 1st domain spell instead.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

That sounds good.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated.

Magic longsword?

And we need to do something about that Armor Class.   For starters, should we give the template a natural armor bonus equivalent to a skeleton?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

I'd say some natural armor like skeletons, but I don't see any reason they couldn't wear some metal armor, since they're clerics after all.  

Also, did we decide that they had enough spell-casting bennies and to ignore the following (or do swift, silent, still spells automatically grant this anyway)?


> Because of the way in which a burnbones casts a spell, it can never be interrupted during spellcasting and lose a spell.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

We decided instead upon...

Fiery Resolve (Ex): A burnbones is always considered to be casting defensively when using any of its spells.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

I agree to natural armor, but equipment and spells would be a good way to bring up its AC. Perhaps it's already cast magic vestment today, for example.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Skeletons get natural armor as follows...

Tiny or smaller +0 
Small +1 
Medium or Large +2 
Huge +3 
Gargantuan +6 
Colossal +10 

I'd rather go the non-variable route, though, and borrow something akin to a lich...

Armor Class: A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better.

Good call on magic vestment.  What kind of metal armor appeals most?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

How about +2 natural and chain mail with magic vestment?  Sufficient?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated.

Magic longsword?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

+1 unholy?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Sure.

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2008)

Looks pretty good, but maybe we should use the extend spell feat here, too.  Could extend a mage armor or spell immunity, for example.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good, but maybe we should use the extend spell feat here, too.  Could extend a mage armor or spell immunity, for example.




Do you mean magic vestment, rather than mage armor (it's a cleric)?  That would make it last 24 hours, which would be perfect.  

Shield of faith would be another good one to extend.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 23, 2008)

Agreed to extended magic vestment, shield of faith.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to extended magic vestment, shield of faith.




Drop dimensional anchor and shield of faith to make room for them?

Suggested replacements at 1st and 3rd levels?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Yeah, I think was getting confused with the web-spectre.

How about an extra doom at 1st and either an extra bestow curse or invisibility purge at 3rd?


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

Updated.   All done?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

I don't see anything obvious missing.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

These guys are linked to the latest epic conversion...

*The Blood Riders (Blood Warriors)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any (Moonshaes)
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Unit
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: LOW
TREASURE: As when alive
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
No. APPEARING: 50-500
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: As when alive
HIT DICE: 8 (40 hp each)
THAC0: 13
No. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: None
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: Varies (1,400 for a Blood Rider)

The Blood Warriors are a type of undead soldier created by Kazgaroth. The Beast used his corrupting mass charm ability to transform a troop of normal living beings into his fanatically loyal, undead servants. 

These beings never check Morale, and the Beast can create one such unit each time he appears.

The beings cursed with this affliction quickly come to resemble zombies, with gray, dessicated flesh. Their eyes glow a fierce, infernal red, however.

Blood Warriors must kill to maintain their strength. For every week the troop goes without killing, each warrior loses 5 hp. If a Blood Warrior is killed by any means, all remaining Blood Warriors also lose 1 hp. Blood Warriors regain hit points by killing; for each victim, each member of the troop regains 1 hp. No Blood Warrior’s hp total can exceed 64 hp.

Blood Warriors also have the capacity to enter a hasted state before combat. To gain this ability, a ritual slaying of a sentient being(s) must take place, and each member of the troop must be anointed with the blood of the victim. The unit’s leader must perform this ritual, and the resulting haste effect lasts for 4d6 combat rounds. As undead, the aging side effect of the haste has no effect on Blood Warriors.

The most recent incarnation of the Blood Warriors is known as the Blood Riders, a troop of Northmen cavalry that took part in Thelgaar Ironhand/Kazgaroth.s invasion of the isle of Gwynneth. The band’s leader, Laric, even managed to kidnap Robyn the druid from Caer Corwell during the battle there. The other heroes tracked, defeated, and killed Laric just before he could sacrifice the Earthmother’s priestess however.

Originally appeared in Villains’ Lorebook (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

The "weakened by not killing, empowered by killing" mechanic seems rather complicated. Could we simplify it from hit point damage to negative levels/positive levels? Positive levels were a mechanic introduced in MMIII's glossary, but never actually used.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> The "weakened by not killing, empowered by killing" mechanic seems rather complicated. Could we simplify it from hit point damage to negative levels/positive levels? Positive levels were a mechanic introduced in MMIII's glossary, but never actually used.




Sure!  I've been dying to use positive levels for some time now.  I even had a few queries in to dragon with some monsters using those mechanics.  <sigh>


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Oooh, sounds neat!  Definitely yes to that.

These would probably work as monsters, but there are hints they should be a template.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm leaning towards monsters, although I could see the argument for template. If we were to templify them, we should have a clause about dropping HD from class levels.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Let's go with monsters.  They seem to be mostly pretty uniform.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Monsters it is!  Lets figure out ability scores.

Int is Low (5-7).

Medium Zombies have +2 natural armor and Str 12, Dex 7-8.   Nothing seems to imply that these creatures lack agiliy, so I think at least Dex 10.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Probably something like Str 19, Dex 12, Con -, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 9?  Or should we boost it a little for their HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

I think those ability scores look fine. We might want to bump up Cha if we decide to give them unholy toughness or unholy prowess (Cha to attack and damage rolls, something I gave to the more martial undead I converted from MMII).


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Unholy toughness sounds like a good fit, so I bumped Cha to 13.  Do we need to go higher?

Unholy prowess sounds interesting!

Give 'em damage reduction 5/slashing like zombies?

Give 'em a slam attack like zombies?  If so, go with 1d10 like the original text or follow the zombie template with 1d6?

Shall we use the Blood Riders as the basic model, tailoring armor, weapons, feats and skills to fit a cavalry-type warrior?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Agree to tailoring to calvary. Agree to 1d10 slam.

...what do they ride?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> ...what do they ride?




Good question...maybe skeletal/zombie steeds?

Do you have a writeup for unholy prowess handy?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Here we go--it seems I forgot the name, but I like "unholy prowess" better anyway.

Unholy Power (Su): A deathbringer gains a profane bonus to attack rolls, grapple checks and Strength-based skill checks equal to its Charisma bonus. This bonus is already factored in above.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Skeletal horses are good.  There are also other undead steeds, I think called gaunts, in FR lore, but those go with other undead cavalry, so I guess we shouldn't rip them off.  (Don't know if the CC has them anyway.)


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.

I don't see the gaunt in the CC.

Is Cha 13 enough?

Give 'em damage reduction 5/slashing like zombies?

Suggested armor?  Stick with +2 natural armor like Medium Zombies?

Skills: 22 (Ride 11?)

Feats: 3 (Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge?)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Stick to +2 natural armor, then give them... banded mail?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we work on the positive/negative level mechanic now?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

MMIII Glossary said:
			
		

> Energy Charge (Su): This ability bestows vital energy at a touch, and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy charge bestows one or more positive levels (the creature's description specifies how many) on living creatures. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature loses 5 hit points for each positive level it bestows. A creature may not have more positive levels than its Constitution bonus (minimum 1).
> 
> An affected creature gains a +1 competence bonus on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and gains one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each positive level. A spellcaster gains one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. These gains persist until the positive level goes away.
> 
> ...






> Blood Warriors must kill to maintain their strength. For every week the troop goes without killing, each warrior loses 5 hp. If a Blood Warrior is killed by any means, all remaining Blood Warriors also lose 1 hp. Blood Warriors regain hit points by killing; for each victim, each member of the troop regains 1 hp. No Blood Warrior’s hp total can exceed 64 hp.




Necessary Slaughter (Su?):  Blood warriors must kill to maintain their strength.  If a troop of blood warriors fails to kill sentient creatures totaling at least X Hit Dice each week, each member of the troop gains one positive level.  

Additionally, should a blood warrior be destroyed, each remaining member of the troop gains one positive level.

For every X Hit Dice of sentient creatures slain by blood warriors, each member of the troop removes one positive level.  If a blood warrior currently has no positive levels, it gains one negative level.  

Undead react to positive levels the way nonundead react to negative levels. An undead character with positive levels at least equal to its current level is instantly destroyed. After 24 hours, an undead must make a DC X Will save. If the saving throw succeeds, the positive level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each positive level it has gained. If the save fails, the positive level goes away, but the creature's level (or HD) is also reduced by one.

An undead creature with a negative level gains a +1 competence bonus on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and gains one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. A spellcaster gains one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. These gains persist until the negative level goes away.  Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks about right to me.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Everything looks good!

I think the gaunt conversion was in the Bestiary of the Realms by Boyd and Costa...  But they're more associated with Myrkul than Bhaal, I guess.

Edit: you got in there before I wrote...


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

How many Hit Dice of killin' should be necessary?

Suggestions for the save DC to remove the positive level?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

The DC should be 15 if we want to make it sort of easy to remove the positive level, DC 20 if hard.

Need to kill their total HD of creatures per week?  Twice that?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Let's split the difference and make it 18. Let's say that the troupe needs to kill its own HD (that's a lot of 1st level commoners!).


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Indeed!

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Looks good.  I also like the language and think Necessary Slaughter should be Su.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Skills: Ride +6*, 11 more ranks (*includes -6 armor check penalty)

Challenge Rating: 3-4 (They are nowhere near as tough as a similar-HD mummy at CR 5)

Treasure: Standard?  (The original text says "as when alive")

Advancement: None?  (Should they remain uniform, but gain permanent positive/negative levels?)

Another thought just crossed my mind that might be appropriate.  Since they were warriors in life, and are melee-focues, what if we gave them an ability that says they have the BAB as fighters of their level, and qualify for feats as if they were fighters of a level equal to their Hit Dice?   I've seen this ability somewhere before, and think it was called "martial training".  If we gave them this, I could see them being a strong CR 4.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Giving them martial training would do a good job of toughening them up. I'm fine either way, with them either being sorta weak or powerful fighter-types. 

I like the idea of permanent negative/positive levels instead of advancement.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Let's go for martial training. 

Well, positive levels become permanent and change HD, so we could just do the same thing for negative levels if we change Necessary Slaughter a little.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Updated.

Is 24 hours too short a duration for the negative level to become permanent?

Suggestion for the additional 11 ranks?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Maybe it should take a week (or ten-day in FR) for the negative level to become permanent.  Otherwise, these guys could advance real fast.

How about Intimidate?  It's even on the fighter class list, so it's appropriate.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2008)

Updated.

What's left?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2008)

Looks doneish to me.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm a little worried about the negative levels converting to HD still, actually at the moment.  First, we might want to say that "permanent" negative levels are really HD advancement.  Next, when do negative levels normally expire?  If they just last forever unless these things get a positive level, I think any negative level will become permanent (because the negative level will always last a week).  So, solutions could either be: negative levels last a couple of days but can be "renewed" or negative levels have to last 2 weeks before becoming permanent.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

I suppose the "permanent negative levels are really HD advancement" option seems the truest in spirits.   What do the rest of you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

I agree, but I think they need to stay on a long time before becoming advancement.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2008)

How about we replace this (from what we have)


> These gains persist until the negative level goes away. Negative levels become permanent after one week.



with the following?

"These gains persist until the negative level goes away (is removed by the gain of a positive level).  A negative level that is not removed by a positive level for 3 weeks becomes permanent, resulting in advancement by 1 HD."


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 10, 2008)

That looks good!


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

Agreed!

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

Done!


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Looks done!  Now we need Kazgaroth's corrupting charm ability to make these!


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Sha’az*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic glaciers
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Feudal hives
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil (G)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral (good)
NO. APPEARING: 2-12 (2d6)
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (4 with shield)
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 18 (B)
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite or weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison frost
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Empathy
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6. tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE:
Drone: 15
Warrior: 270
Queen: 1,400

These creatures are a race of insect-humanoids that have adapted to arctic temperatures. Sha’az are enemies of the haun (q.v.)

Fluffy white down protects them from the icy weather. The down is thickest at the four hind leg extremities, which are also protected by dense felt-like growth. Although the sha’az torso and head are near-human, its six legs are more insect-like. The chest is rather broad, ending in a thin, muscular waist.

The creature’s six legs allow it easy movement on the snow. It can hold on to sheer surfaces or slippery ice with its strong, retractile hooks at the leg extremities. The two front legs end in a series of smaller, prehensile hooks that enable the sha’az to manipulate objects or weapons. The sha’az often stands on its four hind legs, and keeps the rest of its body erect.

The sha’az warrior is male. It conceals four fragile, translucent wings in the white down of its back. These wings enable flight in all but extreme weather conditions.

Underneath the white down, a sha’az body is quite skinny, and partially covered with chitinous plates on the thorax, back, and shoulders. The remainder of the body displays wiry muscles under a thick gray skin, especially on the abdomen, neck, and legs. Its face displays near-human features: a mouth, a hooked nose, and deep set eyes, with a thick, white mane on the top of its head. Two large, serrated mandibles jut out of its cheeks.

Combat: Sha’az avoid combat if isolated. They prefer fighting in groups, especially when hunting. In the face of great danger, sha’az usually attempt to alert the rest of the hive. 
Sha’az are advanced enough to use weapons and shields. They do not wear armor. Warriors commonly use spears, swords, nets, or bows. These warriors are capable of using their bows in midflight, with a -2 attack penalty in addition to other adjustments.

As an alternative to weapons, a sha’az warrior can bite a foe with its venomous mandibles. The poison causes the victim to freeze, inflicting 1-6 points of damage per round, until the victim successfully saves vs. poison. The victim is allowed one saving throw per round, with a cumulative -1 penalty each successive round. At 0 hit points, the victim is frozen and dies. The sha’az warrior can only use its venom once a day. Mandibles alone inflict 1-4 points of damage.

Each hive has a queen that fights like a 10 Hit Dice sha’az with 10th-level clerical spellcasting abilities. Her drone servants which are the female Sha’az, are flightless and fight with a -2 attack penalty. The drones’ mandibles are not poisoned. They fight only if no other choice is available, or if the queen is in some sort of danger. Drones are not normally armed.

For each ten sha’az warriors, one has a limited empathic ability which allows it to communicate with his queen, when it is away from the hive. It is a knight with maximum hit points. The ability can be used at will within 900 feet. Within a mile, the knight has a 10% chance of failure per round of usage, which increases another 1% for each extra mile of distance between the knight and his queen. The maximum chance of failure is limited to 90%, regardless of the distance. When failing an empathic roll, the knight loses its empathic ability for the remainder of the day.

Habitat/Society: Sha’az live in hives dug into arctic glaciers. A hive contains 30-60 sha’az (1d4+2×10). Half are hunter/warriors, while the remainder are drones that tend the hive and serve the queen. A queen lays eight-pound eggs that ensure the survival of the hive. She is the only sha’az capable of casting spells and of making magical objects. Sha’az are literate and use a combination of words, movements, and scents to communicate.

A queen lives several centuries. Occasionally, she engenders another queen who leaves when it is an adult so it may establish another hive. This new hive is a loyal vassal of the motherqueen.

Social status among sha’az depends on how close to the mother-queen one’s hive belongs. There can be many layers of mother-daughter allegiances among sha’az hives. When a queen dies, her drones ritually seal the entrance to her hive. Soon thereafter the mourning hive dies of asphyxiation. Its vassal hives, if any, then become vassals of the oldest related mother-queen.

Ecology: Sha’az hunt for food and feed on polar bear, whale, seal, deer, or haundar (q.v.). They also trade shell pieces with other races. Their enemies are the haun that prey on their eggs.  The eggs contain a substance that alters resistance to psionic effects. Haun use it to help maintain control over their giant mounts, the haundars.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11)(1991).


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

Monstrous Humanoid?

They seem similar to thri-kreen, which have the following ability scores:  
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 7


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

We should stat the queen up seperately, methinks.


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Ability scores look about right, though maybe we should bump Dex to account for more AC since I didn't see anything about armor.  Maybe Str 11, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9?

Agreed on the queen.  Also, at least a sidebar each for the drones and knights (want to give the knights extra HD as opposed to max hp?).


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Thri-kreen have +3 natural armor, so we could use that here as well, keeping the Dex at 15.

Since they have only 1 Hit Die, should they be 1st-level warriors instead of racial HD?  Or does that apply only to non-monstrous humanoids?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

There's a few monstrous humanoids with 1 HD--dromites come to mind. They're 1st level warriors.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Let's do 1st level warriors, then.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Give them a light shield and +3 natural armor?

I was thinking that maybe the telepathy could go to any Sha'az with X number of HD from levels, perhaps.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds good. The gith have similar emergent psionic powers. 4 HD?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Yeah, that's fair.  

Should the bite be a secondary natural attack?  Poison: injury, DC X, 1d6 hp (cold), 1d6 hp (cold), DC Con-based?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

DC should absolutely be Con based. 

Do we want to have them only be able to use the poison a set number of times/day, like a thri-kreen, or is it continuous?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

The original text is 1/day (which is fine by me).


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Updated.

It sounds like the telepathic link is unique to knights.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Right.


> For each ten sha’az warriors, one has a limited empathic ability which allows it to communicate with his queen, when it is away from the hive. It is a knight with maximum hit points. The ability can be used at will within 900 feet. Within a mile, the knight has a 10% chance of failure per round of usage, which increases another 1% for each extra mile of distance between the knight and his queen. The maximum chance of failure is limited to 90%, regardless of the distance. When failing an empathic roll, the knight loses its empathic ability for the remainder of the day.



One suggestion was a sidebar for knights.  Another suggestion was that all sha'az above some HD threshhold are knights.  I could go either way.  One thing I'm not sure about is the percent failure chances for the empathic connection based on distance, though.  Thoughts about this?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

It sounds like knights are different enough to warrant a sidebar.



> Fluffy white down protects them from the icy weather. The down is thickest at the four hind leg extremities, which are also protected by dense felt-like growth.




Resistance to cold, or arctic adaptation?



> The creature’s six legs allow it easy movement on the snow. It can hold on to sheer surfaces or slippery ice with its strong, retractile hooks at the leg extremities.




Racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks?



> Each hive has a queen that fights like a 10 Hit Dice sha’az with 10th-level clerical spellcasting abilities.




We've already decided to stat the queen separately.



> Her drone servants which are the female Sha’az, are flightless and fight with a -2 attack penalty. The drones’ mandibles are not poisoned. They fight only if no other choice is available, or if the queen is in some sort of danger. Drones are not normally armed.




Are the drones different enough to warrant a separate statblock?  It sounds like, at the very least, that its bite attack should always be considered secondary, even as its only attack.



> Sha’az are literate and use a combination of words, movements, and scents to communicate.




Sha'az speak their own language?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Drones could be statted up as 1st level experts or commoners. I like actual cold resistance.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Resistance to cold 5?  Or something less, like 2 or 3?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

I'd say resistance 2.

I kind of like the idea of the drone as a commoner, but I'm not sure that penalizes the bite enough.  Ehh, what the heck, let's just make them commoners.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

2 ranks each in Swim and Climb?  Dodge?

Advancement: By character class (possibly: or by HD as knight?)

Need +3 natural in the racial writeup.
Favored Class: Fighter?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

4 ranks in Intimidate, Alertness for the feat? Alternatively, we could switch the shortspear to a light mace and make the feat Weapon Finesse.

Edit: Freyar snuck in there while I was typing. Since they can fly with good maneuverability, I don't think Climb or Swim are that helpful.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2009)

Fair enough about the skills.  They don't have great Cha, though, so they're going against grain on Intimidate.  That's ok, though.

If the original text doesn't specify the weapon, I'd be fine with switching to a light mace and Weapon Finesse since they're pretty dextrous.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

> Sha’az are advanced enough to use weapons and shields. They do not wear armor. Warriors commonly use spears, swords, nets, or bows. These warriors are capable of using their bows in midflight, with a -2 attack penalty in addition to other adjustments.




In that case, how about shortsword rather than light mace to achieve Weapon Finesse?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Shortswords are fine by me.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Same here.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

These look like CR 1 except for the low hp...

Often LN.
Standard Treasure.
Hunting party (3d6 plus one knight) or hive (30-60 plus 1d6 knights plus 1 queen)?


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Updated.

Wouldn't they be CR 1/2 as 1st-level warriors?

Determining LA:
+2 for fly speed with maneuverability good or better
+1 for natural armor
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+1 for poison
+1/2 for resistance to cold (rounded up to 1)
-------------
+6 (I could see rounding it down to +4, though, as the poison is very limited, and the cold resistance is a low amount)


_Edit:_  I just realized we'll need to rework the ability scores, as a first level warrior utilizes the non-elite array:  13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

There are creatures with CR 1 that are 1st level warriors--drow come to mind. And I'd say LA +3--they're going to be fragile. They're about on par with, say, a svirfneblin. 

Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8 before racial mods?


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Ahh...drow.  Of course.

Updated.

A sha’az is 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.



> Sha’az are literate and use a combination of words, movements, and scents to communicate.




Sha’az speak their own language?

Automatic Languages: Sha’az? Bonus Languages: Common, x.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Any languages commonly used in cold climes in the Realms? Dwarven, Giant, Orc?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Looking at these, as well as the haun and haundar, I can't find which part of the north of Faerun these come from.  Given the bit about knight orders in the haundar plating, maybe Damaran as a good language.  Uluik or Illuskan could work, too.  Giant and Orc also make sense.

Also, about the sha'az eggs, here's the relevant text from the haun entry.



> Hauns prey on sha’az (q.v.) eggs because they contain a substance reducing resistance to mental contact. The eggs allow automatic success for psionic contact and mindlink (except on a roll of 20), and so at half the required PSPs (Psionic Strength Points, rounded down) or a period of a week per egg. When inside the haundar, the parasites inject the egg’s contents into the haundar’s blood.
> 
> With these eggs, hauns easily establish and maintain a psionic mindlink with haundars and make it understand that if it does not obey, pain will soon follow. Haundar behavior ultimately changes after years of this treatment, and they become totally submissive. Owning a haundar is a status symbol among haun broods.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Great suggestions!  Updated.

The eggs increase the save DC by 4 for telepathy [mind-affecting] powers and abilities?  Or, alternatively, impose a -4 penalty?

Also, we still need this:  A sha’az is 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

It doesn't look like they do either. It looks more like a cognizance crystal, the PP in which can only be used to power telepathy abilities. However, since a lot of monsters with psi-like abilities don't use PP (I don't remember about the haun specifically), it would make sense to let them boost DCs instead. Why +4, Shade? I think that +2 would be sufficient.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

+2 is fine.  I was just throwing a random number out there.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Seems from the quoted text more like a -2 penalty on the save (when injected in the haundar, for example), but either way works for me. 

Since they're insectile, maybe a bit skinny, so 120-175 lb?


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

The weight ranges sound good.

For the eggs, what duration for the bonus/penalty?   Original text implies a week, but is that too potent?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

How about an hour?


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

An hour works for me.  Are we going with a penalty or bonus?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

I have no preference.  Anyone else?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Well, I think I prefer that these give a -2 penalty on saves vs psionic (or maybe any compulsion) effects for an hour.  We could treat sha'az eggs as a poison kind of, so ingestion or sufficient injury triggers the penalty.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Look who just agreed to write it up!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I second the motion!


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok, ok.   I'm not sure if the poison mechanic is too clunky, but here's a first pass at a sidebar.

Sha'az Eggs: Sha'az eggs are a potent means of lowering a creature's resistance to compulsion effects.  This is typically administered by feeding a sha'az egg to the victim or else injecting the egg's liquid interior.  It is possible to refine the sha'az egg into an injury poison.  If a full egg's contents are injected into the creature, the victim does not receive a save to avoid the effects of the poison.  Haun are natural enemies of the sha'az because they often inject sha'az eggs into their haundar mounts to keep them malleable.

Sha'az egg poison: Ingested or injury; Fort DC 15?; primary damage -2 penalty to saves vs compulsion effects for 1 hour, no secondary damage.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Nice work!

I'd extend compulsion effects to "telepathy [mind-affecting] powers and abilities" just to cover everything the haun do with them, but otherwise it looks great.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

Works for me!

On to the knights?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Updated.

Sure, time for the knight.



> For each ten sha’az warriors, one has a limited empathic ability which allows it to communicate with his queen, when it is away from the hive. It is a knight with maximum hit points. The ability can be used at will within 900 feet. Within a mile, the knight has a 10% chance of failure per round of usage, which increases another 1% for each extra mile of distance between the knight and his queen. The maximum chance of failure is limited to 90%, regardless of the distance. When failing an empathic roll, the knight loses its empathic ability for the remainder of the day.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Knights are 4th level fighters? Or do we want to do something more exciting and make them psionic warriors?


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Nice idea!  4th level psychic warriors with this extra telepathic link?  Some additional stat bonus or the elite array?  Another option is extra racial HD, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 21, 2009)

I like using the elite array.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Ok, then.  Let's maybe make the favored class for regular sha'az psychic warrior, too, in this case, which might mean we want to shuffle stats a little in the nonelite array.  (Or maybe not, I guess the racial bonus is about all that matters.)  

So, knights are 4th level psychic warriors with the elite array.  How about Str 15, Dex 13+4, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14+2, Cha 8-2?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 21, 2009)

Those stats look good. I don't think we should change the non-elite array around, but I agree that psychic warrior makes for a pretty good favored class.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

So let's leave the basic sha'az stats but just change the favored class.

Assuming we're making a knight statblock, it gets 4 feats, 2 of which must be fighter or psionic.  How about Psionic Weapon and/or Psionic Fist, Weapon Finesse, Speed of Thought, Psionic Charge?  I'm open to suggestions, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Let's go with Psionic Meditation rather than Psionic Charge, and I'm good with that.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Psionic Weapon or Psionic Fist in that case?  I guess it depends if they want to use their bite much.  Probably Psionic Weapon makes more sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Agreed to Psionic Weapon.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Ok, then.

Feats: Psionic Weapon, Weapon Finesse, Speed of Thought, Psionic Meditation.

Skills: Concentration 7, Autohypnosis 7?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Powers Known: 
1 - Prescience, Offensive; Empty Mind; Expansion
2 - Body Adjustment
What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

I'd prefer force screen to empty mind. The rest look good.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

Sure!  How do we want to do the telepathy?  Should we keep the failure chances?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Updated.

I see no real advantage to keeping the failure chances.  It just seems unnecessarily complicated to me, but you might convince me otherwise.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm neutral-negative on the failure changes. I say ditch 'em.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

Agreed.  Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll get a chance to write up this telepathy bit if you guys don't first.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

It's all yours.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Ahh, why do I volunteer for things?   Before I move on to the telepathy, did we forget about putting  a "sha'az drone" sidebar in the sha'az warrior write up?  I thought we were just going to say that the drones are commoners with no flight and the same statistics otherwise.  Or are we giving them their own statblock? 

Hive Telepathy (Su): Each sha'az knight may communicate telepathically with its colony's queen to a range of five miles.

(I went with a range with a decent failure chance.)


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Let's give the drones their own entry.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated the knight.  Anything left before moving on to the drone?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Do we need to specify that psychic warrior levels stack with it's psionic manifesting?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Edit:  Actually, we shouldn't need to, as the flavor text notes that the sample knight is a 4th-level psychic warrior.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Added drone to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Shouldn't they have d4 HD as commoners?

Just thinking: maybe we only need to include the sha'az egg poison in the queen's statblock, since presumably they're the only ones that lay eggs (and have them around).


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Oops!  You are correct on the d4.

Also, I agree with your assessment on the eggs.

Updated.

Skills: 4  (Spot and Listen?)
Feats: 1 (Alertness?)
Challenge Rating: 1/2?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Agreed to all suggestions.  Also, let's reduce the natural armor to +1 or +2 to make the AC a bit more reasonable for CR 1/2.  Finally, since these don't have poison, should the LA drop some?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Combo of lower AC and poison should reduce the LA by 1.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Updated.

Favored class?  (Can commoner be a favored class?)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

NPC classes are never favored, if memory serves me right.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Hmmm...this is tough..I can't really see them as spellcasters...maybe fighter, since they protect the queen?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Fighter seems the best PC class option.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

This part still makes that a tough pill to swallow...



> Her drone servants which are the female Sha’az, are flightless and fight with a -2 attack penalty. The drones’ mandibles are not poisoned. *They fight only if no other choice is available, or if the queen is in some sort of danger. Drones are not normally *armed.




That doesn't sound like trained fighters.  Maybe the drones should simply not advance, unless promoted to queen?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

No advancement is fine (except to queen), and we don't have to stat them as a PC race either.

Edit: Or make them bards.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

So if we ditch advancement, do we change them from being 1st-level commoners?   Or can we just state in the flavor text that they are always commoners?

This is a weird critter.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Oy. These guys are making my head hurt. Let's go "can only advance in NPC classes" in the advancement text. No LA.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Oy. These guys are making my head hurt. Let's go "can only advance in NPC classes" in the advancement text. No LA.



This is probably the best solution.  And just ditch the PC race options, too.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.   Ready for the queen?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Sure!


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Ready!


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Here are the relevant bits...



> Each hive has a queen that fights like a 10 Hit Dice sha’az with 10th-level clerical spellcasting abilities.






> A queen lays eight-pound eggs that ensure the survival of the hive. She is the only sha’az capable of casting spells and of making magical objects.






> A queen lives several centuries. Occasionally, she engenders another queen who leaves when it is an adult so it may establish another hive. This new hive is a loyal vassal of the motherqueen.
> 
> Social status among sha’az depends on how close to the mother-queen one’s hive belongs. There can be many layers of mother-daughter allegiances among sha’az hives. When a queen dies, her drones ritually seal the entrance to her hive. Soon thereafter the mourning hive dies of asphyxiation. Its vassal hives, if any, then become vassals of the oldest related mother-queen.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, I'd say start with a regular sha'az, add 10 cleric levels (and elite array), the other part of the telepathy bit, the sha'az egg sidebar, and any other SAs we feel like. The rest seems basically like flavor.  Simple enough.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

I dunno. We could make her a 10 HD monstrous humanoid that casts spells as a 10th level cleric (with the spellcasting stacking with any later levels in cleric acquired) and with the Item Mastery ability, letting her use any magical item and giving her some item crafting feats as bonus feats.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I dunno. We could make her a 10 HD monstrous humanoid that casts spells as a 10th level cleric (with the spellcasting stacking with any later levels in cleric acquired) and with the Item Mastery ability, letting her use any magical item and giving her some item crafting feats as bonus feats.




I'd prefer this approach.   The queens of most hive-based fantasy media are of the "born not made" mold.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Assuming we go this route, suggested ability scores?

I'm assuming high Wis and Cha.

We gave the warriors and knights +4 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma atop the nonelite and stardard arrays.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, for these guys, since they don't have levels, we shouldn't use the elite array. They don't seem to be any larger than the other sha'az, so we shouldn't boost their Strength much or penalize their Dex. And I agree that a high Wis and Cha are appropriate.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Drone: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 6
Warrior: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 6
Knight:  Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 6

How about...

Queen:  Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

How about Wis 18 or 20? I'd rather they were wiser than the knights?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Wis 20 seems appropriate.

PS. The knight appears to have used the elite array.  And maybe not gotten its 4HD +1 to an ability score; the knights kind of confuse me, to be honest, since I thought they really are psychic warriors.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

They really are psychic warriors.  

They did use the elite array, and put 1 ability score increase into Str, the other in Con.

Added to Homebrews.

Spells: A sha'az queen can cast divine spells as a 10th-level cleric. A queen has access to two of the following domains: x. The save DCs are Wisdom-based. A queen's innate spellcasting stacks with any levels it takes in the cleric class. Thus, a 5th-level sha'az queen cleric has a caster level of 15th, and gains spells per day as a 15th-level cleric.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/6+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 
0th—x;
1st—x;
2nd—x;
3rd—x;
4th—x;
5th—x;
*Domain spell. Domains: x, x.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Domains... Law and Protection?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Wait, the knights should only get 1 stat increase.  But compared to the elite array, I don't see any in their abilities.  Also, I think I was confused because you mentioned using the standard array for them just upthread.

Are we taking the sha'az egg sidebar out of all but the queen?

Domains: Community, maybe Animal or Air?
Edit: Just saw demiurge's suggestions.  How about Community and Protection?  I'm not sure these are quite Lawful enough for Law.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Ooh. Good catch on Community. Let's go for Community and Protection.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

I like it.

After we finish the queen, let's go back and review the other three for any errors/extraneous bits since we shifted gears a few times as we progressed.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Sure. 

Spontaneous curing for the queen?
0th - create water, detect magic, guidance, mending, read magic, virtue?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Yes to spontaneous cure spells.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Sounds right to me.

1 - bless, command, endure elements, magic weapon x2, remove fear, sanctuary*?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Updating...

0th—create water, detect magic, guidance, mending, read magic, virtue;
1st—bless, command, endure elements, magic weapon x2, remove fear, sanctuary*;
2nd—aid, augury, calm emotions, enthrall, make whole, status*;
3rd—create food and water, prayer, protection from energy*, 2 more;
4th—discern lies, freedom of movement, spell immunity*, 2 more;
5th—spell resistance*, true seeing, 2 more;
*Domain spell. Domains: Community, Protection.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updating...
> 
> 0th—create water, detect magic, guidance, mending, read magic, virtue;
> 1st—bless, command, endure elements, magic weapon x2, remove fear, sanctuary*;
> ...




3rd: contagion, searing light
4th: death ward, poison
5th: greater command, mass inflict light wounds


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm happy with the suggested spells. 

Shall we add Item Mastery as an SA?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Good suggestions, all.

Updated.

Skills: 26 
Feats: 4


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Hm. No need for item creation feats... Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (necromancy), Great Fortitude, Weapon Finesse. 

Perhaps we should improve it some from a default sha'az. Give it resistance to cold 10, let it deal cold poison on every bite, give it better natural armor and a better shield.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Agreed with all that.  Suggested natural armor and bonus for shield?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

+5 natural and make it a +2 light steel shield (for +3 armor bonus).  And also agreed.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

+3 heavy steel shield (so a +5 bonus), +6 natural armor?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

That works for me too.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Updated.

CR 10?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Let's also give her a wand of something (hold person, enthrall?) to make use of Item Mastery and then she's CR 10.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

I bumped her to double standard treasure (it makes sense that the queen would be near the stockpile, right?) and gave her both the suggested wands.

Let's review all of the sha'az before moving on...

Drone
Knight
Queen
Warrior


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

1) We should remove the egg stuff from the warrior and knight.

2) I still don't see the level 4 abiity increase for the knight.  I suggest putting it in Wis.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Updated 'em.

And you are correct on the knight...I've now through the extra point in Wis as you suggested.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

If demiurge doesn't have any other corrections, then I think they're done.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Let us be finished here.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

*Plainsjan*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Deserts of Anadia and other planets
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Colony
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT 12
HIT DIE: 5
THAC0: 16
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d2/1d2/1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to poison
SIZE: S (3' tall)
MORALE: Average (11-12)
XP VALUE: 270 each

These creatures look much like gremlins or imps, belonging in fact to the same family. Devilish little creatures that love to prey upon those weaker or in smaller numbers, the plainsjan have pointed little ears much like those of elves, but they have very sharp teeth and large claws for their size. Their small but stout tails are sometimes used for balance when feeding upon taller targets.

Combat: The plainsjan is a creature that thrives almost completely upon the freshly killed flesh of umber hulks, supplementing the diet with other humanoids or creatures. When plainsjan attack, they always do so in numbers that warrant their winning. They attack in groups, biting and scratching from as many different directions as possible.

The bite of a plainsjan has a slight intoxicating effect which is easily shaken off. A successful save vs. poison, with a bonus of +1 , easily eliminates its effects. The poison otherwise causes one to fight at -1 because of the slight delirium. Besides, the victim's Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence temporarily fall one point for 2d4 rounds. This poison effect is cumulative, which makes these creatures dangerous opponents if not properly dealt with quickly.

Their claws are so sharp that, due to blood loss, they inflict an additional point of damage for each of two subsequent melee rounds unless the wounds are dealt with immediately. When these pests attack, they usually use all three attack modes each melee round.

Habitat/Society: These creatures live in tight family-and friend-oriented clans. These groups of plainsjan hunt and fight together. They tend to be quite territorial as well.

Plainsjan prefer to live in arid areas where water is hard to find. Currently, most are near the Anadian equator, but a few have been spotted in the deserts of Toril. This spread is due to the carelessness of spelljamming adventurers, or perhaps the vitality of some people's evil streak. Wherever they are seen, plainsjan run rampant, killing everything they can.

When these creatures breed, their progeny are always born in sets of twos-either identical twins or multiple sets of identical twins are born. The twins spend the rest of their lives together, sharing the same mates and food supplies.

Originally appeared in SJR2 - Realmspace (1991).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

That's an... odd diet. It calls them kin to both gremlins and imps, so we might want to make them extraplanar?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Hmmm...I think they're technically "extraterrestrial" rather than extraplanar.

Odd diet indeed!  Spelljammer sure liked umber hulks.

It sounds like the claws have wounding.

Imp ability scores may fit perfectly:  Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Claws have infernal wound, certainly. Should we simplify the poison?


----------



## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Sure.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Should the bleeding stop after 2 rounds per the original?

Should poison sicken for X rounds?  Or would we rather due short term ability damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

I like the sickening. Sickening stacks to nausea, stacks to dazed?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Not sure if I prefer that or stacking (rather than overlapping) durations on sickened.  Probably what you suggest, though.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> Should the bleeding stop after 2 rounds per the original?




I vote "no", as it's easy enough to undo with a cure minor wounds or a Heal check.

I like the sicken/nausea/daze, but I'm not sure it fits into the traditional poison structure anymore.   Make it a unique ability, and note that anything that affects poison applies to the intoxicating bite?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

All that's fine, but aren't there poisons with primary and/or secondary damage "sickened for X rounds"?  I'm pretty sure DCv1 has them, and it's not so different than unconsciousness.  I guess the stacking might need to be explained.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah, there are poisons like that. The problem is, by default, the same poison doesn't stack.  So if someone gets sickened on the first bite, they won't become nauseated on the next bite.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Let's make it unique, then, but keep it mostly like poison w/no secondary damage.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Borrowing liberally from troglodyte stench (another "poison but not poison" ability)...

Intoxicating Venom (Ex): A creature bitten by a plainsjan must succeed on a DC x Fortitude save or be sickened for 2d4 rounds. A second bite worsens the condition to nauseated for 2d4 rounds, while a third bite dazes the victim for 1 round.  The save DC is Constitution-based. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes all effects from an affected creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 5/cold iron?

Skills: 48
Balance, Jump, Listen, Spot, Survival, Tumble?

Feats: 2
Ability Focus (intoxicating venom), Multiattack, Weapon Finesse (B)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

All of that sounds good.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Any arid land?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Small); 11-15 HD (Medium)?

Level Adjustment: +3?

A plainsjan stands 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Plainsjan speak Sylvan?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

That all sounds good.  I'd say probably sylvan or maybe if there's a language listed for Anadian in that SJ reference.  30-40 lb?


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## Echohawk (Feb 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> That all sounds good.  I'd say probably sylvan or maybe if there's a language listed for Anadian in that SJ reference.  30-40 lb?



There isn't a specific language associated with Anadia, but most of the population is halfling. However, since the plainsjan hunt and eat their halfling co-habitants, I think sylvan is probably more appropriate than halfling.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah, it's best not to talk with one's food.  

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

I think we're done here.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Echohawk has this next one earmarked as fey, but it may be more appropriate as an outsider.  Regardless, it's up for conversion. 

*Mara (“Great Walker”)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Variable
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Semi (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3-12/3-12/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: L (20. tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 5,000

Mara are chaotic evil spirits that inhabit great bodies of stone. In this form they walk the cold regions at night, slaying all who cross their path. At dawn they are gone, their inexorable passage marked by great swaths of uprooted trees, crushed undergrowth, and huge trails studded with deep imprints that lie fully nine feet apart.

Mara are reputed to be 20 feet tall or more, gray-green in color, like weathered stone, and of hulking humanoid shape. Their most dangerous features include two massive stony arms that end in rending claws, and a hooked beak that can crush and tear. It is reported that their eyes glow red when they are tracking a quarry.

Mara communicate among themselves with bird-like cries, whistling, and calls. They can understand, and may respond to, simple mental commands.

Combat: The mara stoops to attack with rending claws and hooked beak. If both claws hit the same target, the bite hits automatically, inflicting double damage. A mara can be affected by any weapon, but has a 25% resistance to magic.

Bright, direct sunlight immobilizes a mara’s body and renders it unfit for the mara’s spirit. This effectively defeats the creature, driving the spirit into painful exile on an outer plane. Many mara have been trapped by the sun, and their abandoned stone bodies form circles and groups of standing stones to this day. Magical and man-made light, such as fire or lantern light, have no effect on the mara, nor does light from such creatures as will o wisps. At night or in stormy, overcast, or foggy conditions, mara roam at will. They can sense the presence or coming of daylight, and instinctively move to a place of concealment where they can survive until the next night. They can walk under or through water without harm, but if entangled or mired and then exposed to sunlight they are destroyed.  If covered, or too deep for light to reach, mara are unaffected by sunlight, which makes deep ponds and other bodies of water possible lairs for mara.

Mara are unaffected by charm, sleep, hold, and similar mind-affecting magic, or by cold- based attacks. A holy word drives the spirit of a mara from its stone body, but if the body stands where light cannot reach, a mara spirit may later return.

Habitat/Society: Mara are huge fey creatures that roam cold regions, hunting all creatures in their paths. Dormant in shadowed lairs by day, the mara rouse themselves at night to stalk the countryside. They walk the countryside singly or in small groups, thus, their nickname “great walkers”. Crashing through underbrush and forested areas, they shake the ground with their tread, and even deep snow does not hinder them. A mara plows a trail or swath up to six feet wide with its body. Mara-trails often afford the only passage through the snowfields of the frozen north.

A mara is very slow, but very strong and fearless. Its keen senses let it track its quarry by scent, with the same chance of success as a ranger. However, the creature has little or no mind. It cannot comprehend someone leaping a gap or from one tree to another. If the prey takes refuge in a structure or faces a mara in open battle, the mara is a deadly foe. It can effortlessly uproot trees and crush undergrowth, and the icy grip of its stone claws can crush armor, flesh, and bone alike.

Ecology: Mara are subservient to tanar’ri and other powerful lower planar creatures of like alignment. Further, they can sense the presence of such creatures within a day’s ride and move to aid or join them if possible. The creatures cannot gate mara in, however. If more than one chaotic evil lower planar creature is present, the mara obeys the most powerful. Typical simple commands that mara might receive from their master include orders to search here and there, to find and slay, or hold, a certain creature, and include a mental picture of the quarry or places to search for it.

The exact mechanism by which mara occupy their stony bodies, and the way in which their spirits make their way from the lower planes to the Prime Material Plane is unknown.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11)(1991).


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## Echohawk (Feb 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Echohawk has this next one earmarked as fey, but it may be more appropriate as an outsider.



I've no idea why I flagged this one as fey, since this sentence seems to clearly indicate that it's an outsider:


> This effectively defeats the creature, driving the spirit into painful exile on an outer plane.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

No worries.  We're out of unconverted FR fey, so we might as well convert it now.


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, the original text lists them as fey, and the flavor is partly fey-ish.  You know, I could almost see these as a dual creature: the mara spirit (outsider) and mara body (fey with sunlight vulnerability).


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

How about outsiders with some fey characteristics?  Some demons already have DR/cold iron, so that works out well.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

Outsiders with affinities for evil fey works best for me.


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Outsiders with affinities for evil fey works best for me.



How do you mean "affinities" here?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 1, 2009)

Like, DR cold iron, associates with fey in the Prime Material.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Sure.  Let's see if we can come up with some more fey-like abilities for these.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Considering the fact that it's like a massive construct, it's a monster trifecta!


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

> SIZE: L (20. tall)






> Mara are reputed to be 20 feet tall or more, gray-green in color, like weathered stone, and of hulking humanoid shape.




Huge?



> Mara communicate among themselves with bird-like cries, whistling, and calls. They can understand, and may respond to, simple mental commands.




Speak their own language and understand Abyssal?



> The mara stoops to attack with rending claws and hooked beak. If both claws hit the same target, the bite hits automatically, inflicting double damage.




Didn't we do this "auto bite if both claws hit" on another recent creature?



> A mara can be affected by any weapon, but has a 25% resistance to magic.




Spell resistance, but no DR.



> Bright, direct sunlight immobilizes a mara’s body and renders it unfit for the mara’s spirit. This effectively defeats the creature, driving the spirit into painful exile on an outer plane. Many mara have been trapped by the sun, and their abandoned stone bodies form circles and groups of standing stones to this day. Magical and man-made light, such as fire or lantern light, have no effect on the mara, nor does light from such creatures as will o wisps.




Sunlight = effect of banishment spell?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Wow, keep forgetting about these.

Those suggestions all sound good.  

I remember doing a Gnaw ability for bite combined with Imp Grab.  Is that what you're thinking of?  This seems a little closer to a Rend, though.  Did we do that with bite?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is listed as 2-4.  Wis should be average to decent, based on their keen senses and awareness of proximity of demons and so forth.  Cha is probably average to decent as well.

Physical ability scores (except Con) can probably be borrowed from a greater stone golem:  Str 37, Dex 7

Con 30ish?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

Str 34, Dex 7, Con 30, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 13?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Seems fine.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> A holy word drives the spirit of a mara from its stone body, but if the body stands where light cannot reach, a mara spirit may later return.




Thoughts on that?



> Mara are huge fey creatures that roam cold regions, hunting all creatures in their paths.




Environment:  Any cold?



> Crashing through underbrush and forested areas, they shake the ground with their tread, and even deep snow does not hinder them. A mara plows a trail or swath up to six feet wide with its body. Mara-trails often afford the only passage through the snowfields of the frozen north.




Movement never penalized by terrain features?



> A mara is very slow, but very strong and fearless. Its keen senses let it track its quarry by scent, with the same chance of success as a ranger.




Scent?  Track as a bonus feat?



> However, the creature has little or no mind. It cannot comprehend someone leaping a gap or from one tree to another. If the prey takes refuge in a structure or faces a mara in open battle, the mara is a deadly foe. It can effortlessly uproot trees and crush undergrowth, and the icy grip of its stone claws can crush armor, flesh, and bone alike.




Double damage against objects, like a treant?



> Mara are subservient to tanar’ri and other powerful lower planar creatures of like alignment. Further, they can sense the presence of such creatures within a day’s ride and move to aid or join them if possible. The creatures cannot gate mara in, however. If more than one chaotic evil lower planar creature is present, the mara obeys the most powerful. Typical simple commands that mara might receive from their master include orders to search here and there, to find and slay, or hold, a certain creature, and include a mental picture of the quarry or places to search for it.




Continuously detect chaotic evil outsiders to a range of 1 mile?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Scent, track, double damage, ignores terrain features and detecting CE outsiders... all good. Not sure about the spirit comes back to the body thing.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Updated.

Trample seems appropriate for them, eh?

At one time we discussed giving them DR/cold iron to make them more like demons and fey.  Wanna add that?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

DR cold iron and trample both strike me as completely appropriate.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2009)

I'd agree to all that.  I'm also not sure about the re-inhabitation.  I guess I'm still not sure how we're handling the separate spirit-body thing.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm still not real sure on that either.  

I suppose we could make the mara an incorporeal outsider, and let it inhabit these bodies like a possessing fiend, but I can't really see a use for them outside the bodies.  

Anyway, it has been updated.

Suggested damage for the claws and bite?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Maybe 2d6 and 2d8?

For the re-inhabitation, I was just thinking that the sunlight vulnerability could effectively paralyze them.  Then, say, a DC X Will save could allow them to regenerate after X days, sort of like a ghost.  The bit about spirits, etc, could be flavor text.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

Ooh, I like that. Treat the spirit as rejuvenation.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Excellent idea!

Does this cover it?

Sunlight Vulnerability (Su):  A mara exposed to natural sunlight is permanently paralyzed. Each week thereafter, during periods of darkness, the mara may attempt a DC 20 Will save could to end the paralysis.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

That works for me.  And just put the spirit bit in flavor text, I think.  

Gnaw looks like what we want, but I think we used that name for a Constrict analog, rather than a Rend analog.  Any other name come to mind?  Nibble?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

Rending bite?  Maul?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

I like maul!


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Maul it is!


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 4 at 13 ranks
Max Survival (for tracking), what else?

Feats: Track (B), 4 more


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Hide, Move Silently, split between Spot and Listen? Give them a +8 racial bonus to hide in rocky terrain?

Feats: Imp. Init, Imp. Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction x/cold iron

Organization: Solitary, pair, or trio?

Advancement: x

A mara stands 20 feet tall or more and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

DR 10, I think.  Organization is good.  Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)?  5000 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

I like the Advancement, but I think the weight is quite low.

A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 22,000 pounds.

These fellas are 20 feet tall and have a similar composition, so maybe 30,000 pounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Agreed to 30K pounds.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Updated.

Should we stick with Extraplanar subtype, or change it to Native, now that we removed the banished by sunlight bit?

CR 9?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

The higher weight is good.   I always just guess at those. 

Change to native outsider, I think.

CR 9 seems right.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Updated.   What's left?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

I think it's done. Is that the last of Feybruary?


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## Zarahon (Mar 31, 2009)

Sorry to be a bother here but did you ever cover the Slithermorph or the Sull, I know those are FE beasties as well.


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## Echohawk (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes, the Creature Catalog has 3.0 versions of the slithermorph and the sull.


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## Zarahon (Apr 1, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Yes, the Creature Catalog has 3.0 versions of the slithermorph and the sull.



THanks, don't know how I missed those when skimming the "s"s there  Would you by any chance know where to find the original monster entry for the Slithermorph from 2nd Ed? I'd like to read up on its habitat/society and ecology, the 3rd ed ones are always so brief.


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## Echohawk (Apr 1, 2009)

The slithermorph originally appeared in the _Ruins of Undermountain_ boxed set. In fact, that also seems to be its only appearance in D&D history.

Shameless plug: complete index of D&D creatures.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 1, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> The slithermorph originally appeared in the _Ruins of Undermountain_ boxed set. In fact, that also seems to be its only appearance in D&D history.
> 
> Shameless plug: complete index of D&D creatures.




They also appeared in the Dungeon Hack video game.


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## Zarahon (Apr 1, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> They also appeared in the Dungeon Hack video game.




Yeah that's where I first encountered them as well in the FR setting


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

*Dimensional Warper*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Supra to genius (19-20)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8-10
THAC0: 8 or 9 HD: 13
10 HD: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 8 or 9 HD: 3,500
10 HD: 5,000

A dimensional warper has a snake-like body and stands on two long, thin legs. Its long, thin, flexible arms each end in one hooklike claw. There is a sturdy, wing-like membrane that stretches between the arms and legs ending at the claws and feet respectively. These “wings” are not used for flight. The warper’s head is bald and earless. It has large, round eyes with cat-like pupils. The creature stands about 6 feet tall and has a wing span of about 5 feet. It is covered in a thick, leathery hide and has a long lizardlike tail. The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane.

Occasionally, for reasons of their own, dimensional warpers have communicated with humans and demihumans. These adventurers have reported that the warpers come to the Prime Material Plane to learn about the creatures native to the plane.  However, only those warpers who are old and wise can visit this lane. If a dimensional warper is encountered, there is an 85% chance that it is a scholar; otherwise it is a master. A master is identified by the ring of symbols tattooed around its head and down its back which are a sign of its rank.

Combat: Dimensional warpers generally prefer to observe rather than fight. However, if it feels it has learned all it can from watching a group of adventurers, it probably attacks them to learn first-hand about their fighting skills. It only wants to learn about them, not kill them.

A warper attacks once with each of its claws and once with its long whip-like tail. If the warper cannot easily remain in control of the battle, it uses its abilities to warp the dimensions of height, width, depth, and time. It can enlarge itself, as per the spell, three times per day. It can haste itself or slow another being, as per the spells, three times per day. It can use dimension door once per turn. A dimensional warper can also make itself two-dimensional, as per the spell duo-dimension, at will.

A master also has the ability to time stop once per week. However, it does not use this ability to give itself the opportunity to kill its opponents. The master uses it only to leave the battle if it is in danger of being killed or if it is being forced to kill its subjects to avoid being killed.

Habitat/Society: The warper society is based entirely on seeking knowledge. Dimensional warpers are curious, knowledge-seeking beings. They spend most of their lives observing other creatures and learning as much as possible about them. Adult warpers are usually scholars. However, the oldest and most-learned warpers earn the title master and are respected and honored by the others in the society.

Warpers prefer to live where they can observe other creatures without being seen. If possible they travel from place to place, finding hiding places in cities from which they can watch. They have also been known to hide along roads or trails or in dungeons where there are adventurers and monsters regularly passing by. It is possible for a dimensional warper to be able to speak almost any language, as they study their subjects intently. They are very interested in understanding any conversations they overhear.

Ecology: Dimensional warpers do not generally eat the creatures they observe as they do not approve of devouring intelligent creatures and non-intelligent animals do not make very interesting subjects for them. No one has ever seen the home of a warper or knows how old warpers live to be.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11)(1991).


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

I kind of like the idea of these as extraplanar aberrations.

Also, do these two lines seem incompatible?



> The dimensional warper has never been encountered on the Prime Material Plane.



and


> However, only those warpers who are old and wise can visit this lane. If a dimensional warper is encountered...


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

Looks like a good ol' editing mistake. Agreed to extraplanar aberrations. What's their home plane? The Ethereal? The Outlands? 

Duo-dimensional will have to change, since it's a psionic power that's basically keen edge with cooler flavor. How about keen edge and "superior blink" as SLAs? Superior blink being a unique SLA, acts as blink without the chance to lose turns by popping into the Ether. Perhaps also a plane shift ability would let it come to the Prime (or wherever) to observe.

High Int is a given, but other mental scores should be high as well. Its snaky body suggests a higher Dex and lower Str. How about:

Str 13, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 20, Wis 19, Cha 20?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

All that sounds great!

On the one hand, the Ethereal Plane makes a certain amount of sense, but then the Outlands have far fewer exclusive residents...


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

Why not just say Outlands and Ethereal both?  Agreed to everything above.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I used the text from the greater blink spell for superior blink.  Does that capture it adequately?

Should we make the keen edge ability also unique, so it can apply to its natural weaponry?

Change size like the efreet since enlarge and reduce won't work on aberrations?

Borrow the specific plane shift ability of genies and adapt it to the warper's home planes?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2009)

Agreed to specific plane shift, modified keen, and change size. Also, you forgot to include time stop in their SLAs.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to specific plane shift, modified keen, and change size. Also, you forgot to include time stop in their SLAs.




I left it off since it was apparently limited to "masters".  Do we want to have a separate entry for masters, note that time stop is gained at a certain advancement milestone, or just make it par for all warpers?


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe a sidebar about masters, probably based on some advancement milestone.  The rest is looking pretty good.

Should we do something about the duo-dimension ability? Unique Su?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 9, 2009)

Well, we split duo-dimension up into superior blink and keen edge for natural attacks.

And I missed the thing on masters. Let's give them a sidebar and a HD milestone.


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2009)

Ah, I missed or forgot that bit about duo-dimension.  

I almost wonder if masters should be based on some kind of character class advancement.  These have a vibe about them of either wizards or monks, can't decide which.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Updated.

It also has dimension door 1/turn (10 minutes).   Wanna make that a more standard x/day, or maybe 1/minute?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 10, 2009)

3 a day works for me.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 3 a day works for me.



Works here too.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 77
Knowledge skills are a given.  What else?  Gather Information?  Search/Spot/Listen?

Feats: 3


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 13, 2009)

Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse and Multiattack for the feats?

I like your skill selections, but Tumble is also a possibility for getting away purposes.

How often can they plane shift?


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> How often can they plane shift?




If we borrow from the genies, it appears to "at will", although not explicitly stated.



> These adventurers have reported that the warpers come to the Prime Material Plane to learn about the creatures native to the plane.  However, only those warpers who are old and wise can visit this plane. If a dimensional warper is encountered, there is an 85% chance that it is a scholar; otherwise it is a master. A master is identified by the ring of symbols tattooed around its head and down its back which are a sign of its rank.




Should only masters have plane shift?  Or are they assuming only adults have this ability?

Updated.

Is that enough Knowledge skills?

Treasure: None?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: 9-10 HD or by character class?   Favored class expert? monk? wizard?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

That all looks good, I think.

Answering questions: 
Plane shift -- let's give all of them plane shift between Outlands and Ethereal, but only masters can plane shift to Material.  That might clear up some confusion in the original text, too.  Maybe let's also do 3/day.  That gives them more need to get away from an encounter rather than just plane shifting out.
I can't decide between monk and wizard for these.  Probably wizard, since we didn't go particularly monk-ish on the rest of the abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

Masters as wizards works for me.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 5?



> It is possible for a dimensional warper to be able to speak almost any language, as they study their subjects intently. They are very interested in understanding any conversations they overhear.




Tongues?  Or additional bonus languages beyond their normal amount from Int?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

How many levels before becoming a master?

EDIT: I bow before your ninja might, Shade!  I like what you did with the master.

CR 5 for the basic warper seems ok, and I think that tongues is probably best.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

How about:

Polyglot (Ex): A dimensional warper speaks all languages except for secret languages, such as Druidic.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

That works too.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Great!  That seems far more appropriate than the supernatural tongues in this case.

Updated.

A dimensional warper is 6 feet tall with a 5-foot wingspan. It weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Hmm, they're snaky and they fly.  So they're probably pretty skinny.  150lb?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Weight sounds good.  They are actually flightless, and I've updated the flavor text to reflect this.

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Forgot the flightless bit!

Do masters need a CR boost beyond what they get from the HD?  Other than that, I think we're done.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

freyar said:


> Do masters need a CR boost beyond what they get from the HD?  Other than that, I think we're done.




Good question.  Is time stop enough to warrant a CR increase in that range?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

Maybe +1, though perhaps not if they're really only using it to escape.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Good point.  Since they don't use it offensively, it probably doesn't warrant a CR boost.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

So call it done?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

I think we're done.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

*Dragger*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any (caverns or subterranean)
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: Q
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12, burrow 9
HIT DICE:2-6
THAC0: 19 (2 HD)
17 (3 & 4 HD)
15 (5 & 6 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d4 per round (digestive juices)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to most spells, half-damage from edged and piercing weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8-12 feet in diameter)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 2 Hit Dice: 975
3 Hit Dice: 1,400
4 Hit Dice: 2,000
5 Hit Dice: 3,000
6 Hit Dice: 4,000

Draggers are usually encountered in natural caverns, though many are to be found in the underways of Ravens Bluff, where they have been the doom of more than a few smugglers down the years. Like their cousins the galeb duhr, draggers resemble boulders, with a single pair of appendages acting as both hands and feet and with huge mouths that seem mere fissures in rock when closed. Draggers are natives of the Plane of Elemental Earth and are able to propel themselves through stone.

Combat: A dragger typically “floats” in a section of floor, camouflaging itself through its ability to create hallucinatory terrain at will in a ten-foot-square area centered on itself. Anything stepping upon the hidden dragger risks being swallowed by the creature’s gaping maw (such a target is considered to be AC 10, exclusive of Dexterity bonuses). If the initial attack fails, the dragger will submerge beneath the ground to a place of safety, returning to the same spot 2d4 turns later. Should the attack succeed, the dragger’s target will have one or more appendages (usually feet) trapped in the creature’s jaws. On the following round, the dragger will momentarily loosen its grip as it attempts to swallow the victim. A successful saving throw vs. paralyzation indicates that the prey manages to wriggle free at this time; each being helping the victim adds a +1 bonus to the roll. Should the save be unsuccessful, the prey is sucked into the dragger’s gullet. On the next round, the dragger sinks into the ground to enjoy its meal safe from harm.

Should the creature be slain before it withdraws, captured prey can be freed in 14 rounds but suffers 3d4 hit points of damage per round from the dragger’s corrosive digestive juices. Draggers can digest virtually anything except gems (their treasure, if any, consists of gems carried by previously swallowed victims).

Draggers can be struck by any sort of weapon, although edged and piercing weapons do only half damage. Spells don’t affect draggers, except as follows: magic missile inflicts normal damage; move earth causes the dragger to immediately depart for 14 turns, first releasing any prey not already swallowed; stone to flesh lowers a dragger’s Armor Class to 10 for the spell duration, immobilizing the creature if it is submerged in stone at the time (if only partially submerged, it can force itself out of the stone in 1 round at the cost of 2d4+2 hit points abrasion damage); stone shape can be used to force a dragger’s jaws through one involuntary movement and then hold it in the new position for the spell duration (in other words, to either hold the jaws shut or to force the dragger to open wide and disgorge a swallowed victim); and transmute rock to mud fully heals the creature (they otherwise heal 1 lost hit point per day, as many other creatures do). 

Habitat/Society: Draggers are solitary, sexless hunters. When they reach an unstable size (i.e., above 6 HD) through diligent devouring, they split to form two to four smaller (2 HD) draggers, expelling all previously ingested gems in the process. The new individuals may stay together for a time but as they grow they move apart to find their own hunting grounds. They have no social interaction but never fight each other; if two draggers encounter each other in an area heavily trafficked by prey they may feed side by side for a time, but otherwise they’ll always instinctively move apart. Draggers have been known to go dormant for long periods of time, hiding inside solid rock and ignoring food nearby; no good reasons for this behavior has yet been offered.

Ecology: Draggers are carnivores, eating all manner of birds, reptiles, and mammals. They ignore most plants, devouring only ambulatory sorts, but avidly swallow fungi. They otherwise place no value judgments on food: edible is edible, and a dragger won’t choose a larger or more formidable meal over a lesser (or vice versa). Regardless of the size of prey it eats, a dragger will try to devour prey only once every three hours or so, ignoring other possible targets after one try (successful or not). They are capable of going months if not years between meals.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #44 (1988).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Sort of a xorn/galeb duhr hybrid.

The galeb duhr is Medium in the 3e MM2, with the following ability scores:  Str 13, Dex 5, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 12


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Have to go with Large for these, though, I think.  They sound like elementals (like galeb duhr, I think).  Still start with 2HD, or go a little higher (also with the advancement)?

Earth glide or just a normal burrow speed?  

I'd say a bite attack, imp grab, swallow whole (magically up to only one size smaller).

Sounds like halucinatory terrain as an SLA.

DR x/bludgeoning.

Magic Immunity something like a golem with specific spell effects.

Write up the splitting as part of advancement or something?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Agreed to elemental.

Yeah, 2 HD won't cut it at that size.  That's the norm for a Small earth elemental, and a minor (Small) xorn is 3 HD.  If we're going Large, I say 8 HD like the Large earth elemental (a Large xorn is 15 HD!).  Galeb duhr is 8 HD at Medium, too.

I'd vote a strong "yea" for earth glide.

I agree with the rest.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

8HD is fair if all are agreed.

Str 17, Dex 5, Con 20, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 12?  These seem like they'd be lower Wis due to low Int (don't want to cut Cha much, though), and Str is probably more than galeb duhr due to their size.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

For comparison...

Large Earth Elemental: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11
Elder Xorn:  Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10

Based on that, I'd recommend Str 19 or more, Con 19 or less.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

Huh, galeb duhr have great Con, don't they?  Ok, Str 22, Dex 5, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 12?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Filling in blanks:

+14 natural to get AC 20, which also agrees with the 7HD average xorn, so I'm happy with that.

Let's do DR 5 if all are agreed.

I think split should be there for advancement purposes, like we did for the grave watcher.

Caster level 8 for SLAs?

Su on swallow whole for these, since they can eat pretty large critters.  15 hp to cut out?  With +14 natural, gizzard AC is 17.

Group organization = cluster like xorn?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Combat: 3d6 or 2d8 bite damage? It's a gigantic mouth with rocks for teeth. Only one attack available for it, might as well make it hurt.

Natural Armor: +16. IT's low dex is gonna hurt it hard. Galeb Duhr has +14 for example

5/Bludgeoning is sufficent. 10/bludgeoning just seems overpowered for what is probably going to be a CR 7-9 critter.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Or we could do 2d12 for the bite.   Seriously, either 3d6 or 2d8 is fine for me.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Updated.



> Spells don’t affect draggers, except as follows: magic missile inflicts normal damage; move earth causes the dragger to immediately depart for 14 turns, first releasing any prey not already swallowed; stone to flesh lowers a dragger’s Armor Class to 10 for the spell duration, immobilizing the creature if it is submerged in stone at the time (if only partially submerged, it can force itself out of the stone in 1 round at the cost of 2d4+2 hit points abrasion damage); stone shape can be used to force a dragger’s jaws through one involuntary movement and then hold it in the new position for the spell duration (in other words, to either hold the jaws shut or to force the dragger to open wide and disgorge a swallowed victim); and transmute rock to mud fully heals the creature (they otherwise heal 1 lost hit point per day, as many other creatures do).




Borrowing from some of the golems...

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A dragger is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A dragger is affected normally by force effects, such as a magic missile spell.

A move earth spell forces the dragger to drop any grappled or swallowed prey, then drives the dragger back 120 feet and deals 3d12 points of damage to it.

A stone shape spell either forces the dragger to drop any grappled or swallowed prey, or seals its maw shut (preventing use of its bite attack) for x rounds.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the dragger's structure but negates its damage reduction and natural armor for 1 full round, while immobilizing the creature.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a dragger (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.



Skills: 11
Listen +5, Spot +6?

Feats: 3
Ability Focus (hallucinatory terrain), Alertness, 1 more?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

What about Stand Still:

SRD:Stand Still - D&D Wiki

You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.

Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal

Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks. 


This would work with some of it's flavor text where it swallows foes whole. If the enemy flees it attempts to hold onto them and make sure they don't go anywhere. Never know when food is going to come along again.

Can we give it tremorsense? Wouldn't that fit it's abilties more?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Looks good.  Skills look good.  Weapon Focus on that bite?

Edit: Stand Still is always good.  Let's do that.  I also think tremorsense 60 ft, like Xorn, would be ok.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Excellent suggestions.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)

Challenge Rating: 6-7?  It's deadlier than a Large earth elemental (CR 5) and fairly comparable, but a tad more deadly than an average xorn (CR 6)

Treasure: No coins, standard goods (gems only), no items?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: 9–15 HD (Large), 16–24 HD (Huge)?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Organization: Solitary or Cluster 2-6 (Rocks cluster?)
CR: 5. It doesn't move too much, it's slow, the PCs can out run it if they move quickly.
Treasure: Gems only the rest of the stuff it digests.
Alignment: Neutral. It's a hungry elemental, it doesn't care too much one way or another.
Advancement: All that is fine.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Yes to all that.

9000 (like elder xorn) to 25000 lb?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

All we have left is to fill in a few Xs:

A stone shape spell either forces the dragger to drop any grappled or swallowed prey, or seals its maw shut (preventing use of its bite attack) for *x* rounds.

Split (Ex): A fully healed dragger of *x* or more HD can split into multiple draggers. The new draggers may have any combination of HD that totals to the HD of the original dragger, but each must have at least 2 HD. Each new dragger has average hit points for its Hit Dice. This process takes *x* rounds, during which the dragger may take no other actions.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

1d4 rounds on the prevented bite attack.  That's enough either to kill it or run away.  Most likely, I'd see a dragger just disappearing into the earth if it's incapacitated like that.

For the split, we upped the base HD to 8.  So let's go with

Split (Ex): A fully healed dragger of 16 or more HD can split into multiple draggers. The new draggers may have any combination of HD that totals to the HD of the original dragger, but each must have at least 8 HD. Each new dragger has average hit points for its Hit Dice. This process takes 1 minute, during which the dragger may take no other actions.

Does a minute work for the time?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

I was going to suggest 2 rounds, but 1d4 works too. If this creature were to get below 75% health with an enemy in it's maw it will flee into the earth.  That can be flavor combat text.

Split looks good.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

Another one finished?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Nit picking: Can we bold the "In the Realms" part. It just sort of blends together with everything else. Beyond that I don't see any typos or glaring errors.

On a roll this week!


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

October is the time for horror...

*Netherese Zombie*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Nil
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Avg (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING 2d8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4/2d4
SPELL ATTACKS: Raise dead, control undead
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Special
XP VALUE: 650

Netherese zombies are undead creatures resembling normal zombies that move about the surface of Netheril on various errands for their master, the Lichlord. While a few of these creatures are independent of their creator, most are known to serve the Lichlord in one manner or another.

These undead are frequently encountered wearing the same clothing as they did in life. It’s not uncommon for Neth zombies to be wearing fine robes and jewelry, death shrouds, or other clothing that they happened to be wearing before they were converted into undeath. There’s a sparkling of intelligence in a Netherese zombie,.the last vestige of humanity left in its body. Each zombie speaks whatever languages it knew in life (typically common) and also communicates telepathically with the Lichlord.

Combat: Neth zombies typically attack in force, seeking to overwhelm any opposition quickly. While a few servants of the Lichlord have been known to hurl daggers or flaming oil, most Neth zombies prefer the direct approach.  Once a direct attack fails, however, the Lichlord is quick to inform other bands of his zombies to attack with ranged weapons, wait until night to attack, or simply ambush opponents. Netherese zombies are turned as spectres and attack during their normal Initiative (they don’t always attack last in a round).

While engaged in melee, these zombies seek to pummel or claw their opponents to the ground. The Neth zombie that defeats an opponent can then choose to raise dead on that creature, transforming him into a Netherese zombie in 1d4 turns. As the transformation comes to fruition, the skin slowly turns a pale white, fingernails become sharp, and the eyes sink in a bit.

A successfully cast remove curse versus 12th-level magic stops the transformation, returning the victim to the ranks of the dead. From there, a normal raise dead or resurrection spell can be used to bring the creature back to life as described above after being defeated in combat.

Zombies of Netherese variety can also control nonthinking undead (skeletons, normal zombies, and others) within 30 feet. Such control is equivalent to that of an evil priest who successfully controls undead.

Neth zombies are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death magic, poison, and cold-based attacks.  A vial of holy water inflicts 2d4 points of damage.

Habitat/Society: Most Netherese zombies are loyal servants to the Lichlord.  These creatures roam the lands of Netheril searching for new recruits to add to the Lichlord’s army of undead. Each zombie possesses a burning desire to kill any human it encounters.

Neth zombies retain most of their Intelligence (10 maximum) and the ability to speak. They also keep the personality and memories that they had in life, typically using these to their advantage in service to the Lichlord. Overall, creatures retain two-thirds of the abilities they had in life (so a fighter with 18 Strength would be reduced to a Strength of 12).

All of these undead answer only to the telepathic will of the Lichlord, though he may from time to time appoint a wraith or spectre to command in his stead.

Ecology: As zombies swell their ranks with those they defeat, it becomes increasingly difficult to oppose this wave of undead as it ravages the countryside. In short order, entire villages are absorbed into a growing mass of destruction that sweeps up anything it encounters. Fertile fields are trampled flat by their passing, and animals flee as they approach.

Originally appeared in How the Mighty are Fallen (1996).


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> October is the time for horror...
> 
> *Netherese Zombie*




Hmm, so will this be a standard monster or do we create a "Netherese Zombie" template? I can see arguments either way.

Guess it'll be easier to stat them up as a regular monster.

Medium-sized Undead, obviously.

6 Hit Dice.

Same physical stats as a human zombie, but intelligent, probably something like.

Str 12, Dex 8, Con -, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.

What martial proficiencies will they have? I was thinking they might keep the weapon & armour proficiencies they knew in life, not just the simple weapons all Undead know, to give them a slight "template" flavour.

A +5 natural armour bonus would give them AC14, the equivalent of the AD&D version's AC6.

Their undead powers seem pretty straightforward - standard Undead immunities, spawn more Netherese zombies from humans they slay, rebuke non-intelligent Undead as a 6th level evil cleric.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

I lean toward template, since standard zombies (and many variants) are templates.

That said, we could always stat up our sample first, then reverse-engineer it to get a template.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

The "two-thirds as powerful as they were when alive"... I don't like it. 

But I do like this as a template.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> But I do like this as a template.




Template it is then!

Shall we go through the Zombie's SRD writeup, making changes as we go?
*Zombies*
Zombies are corpses reanimated through dark and sinister magic.

Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple.​Chopping and changing some text from the AD&D description.
*Netherese Zombies*
Zombies are corpses reanimated through the dark magic of Netheril's Lichlord. These undead are frequently encountered wearing the same clothing as they did in life. 

There’s a spark of intelligence in a Netherese zombie, the last vestige of humanity left in its body. Most Netherese zombies serve the Lichlord in one manner or another, but a few are independent of their creator. Regardless of whether they follow a master, each zombie possesses a burning desire to kill any human it encounters.​ That's fairly straightforward, it's the "Creating a Zombie" were the trouble starts.
*Creating a Zombie*
"Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).​Reading between the lines, it looks like they mainly turn humans and their kin into Netherese zombies. Shall we restrict the template to Humanoids. I think I'd rather make it Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, like the Vampire template.
*Creating a Netherese Zombie*
"Netherese Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any Humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature, referred to hereafter as the base creature.​The Size and Type entry looks a bit trickier. I'm thinking it should gain the augmented subtype, since it retains much of the intelligence they had when alive.
*Size and Type*
 	The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid. It retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. ​Now here comes a tricky bit: Hit Dice. Do they keep class levels or not?

I think that's a good point to stop throwing out proposals to let the arguments commence.


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2009)

Well, I vote we ditch the "2/3" as powerful bit (except perhaps for ability penalties or certain types of special abilities?).  Since the original text makes it sound like they may keep class abilities, I also vote to keep class HD.


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, I vote we ditch the "2/3" as powerful bit (except perhaps for ability penalties or certain types of special abilities?).  Since the original text makes it sound like they may keep class abilities, I also vote to keep class HD.




I was thinking that Netherese zombies just have Undead hit dice, but keep their languages and weapon proficiencies. I have a feeling these are more like Vampire Spawn than Vampires, lacking most of the  intelligence and abilities they had in life.

Or, maybe we could have them lose some of their class levels (say -5 class levels?) and if they have any left they can become "independent" Netherese Zombies. Thus, a 5th level fighter becomes a standard 6HD Netherese Zombie, but a 6th level fighter becomes a Netherese Zombie with 1 level of fighter. That would be fiddly in practice, but it allows to have "rank and file" zombies without having to bother with working out their 2 levels in Commoner or whatever, plus "personalities" that used to be the local notables.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 4, 2009)

I prefer them to keep all class levels.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I prefer them to keep all class levels.




Me too.  These are probably more closely related to the corpse creature template than the zombie template.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Ok, 3 out of 4 prefer class levels.   Do we want to give them some kind of penalties to account for the 2/3 power schtick?


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Hmmm...

Zombies (and similar undead) generally get physically stronger, rather than weaker.

Zombie: A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

Corpse Creature: Modify the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex -2, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0.


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Me too.  These are probably more closely related to the corpse creature template than the zombie template.




OK, I can go along with that. In that case we'd want them to get bonus levels in Undead to put a standard Netherese Zombie's Hit Dice up to 6, which suggests adding 5 HD to a standard 1st level Commoner.

I'd think we'd want it to scale with the size and base HD of the original creature, something like:A Netherese Zombie keeps any class levels it possesses and gains additional levels in Undead equal to the base Hit Dice (sans class levels, minimum 1) of its base creature, plus additional levels in Undead  according to its size using the following chart:

Diminutive or smaller - no extra HD for size
Tiny - +1 Undead HD
Small - +2 Undead HD
Medium or larger - +4 Undead HD​So, a human 1st level Commoner (Base 1 HD, Medium-sized) would become a 6HD Netherese Zombie as desired - 1HD of commoner, plus its base 1 HD, plus 4 HD for size, while a Kobold (1HD Small) would become a 4HD Netherese Zombie [_base 1*2 plus 2 for size_] and a Gnoll (2HD Medium) becomes an 8 HD Netherese Zombie [_base 1*2 plus 2 for size_].

A high level adventurer (say a 9th level fighter) would just get an extra 5HD of Undead on top of their class HD, or +3 HD if they're Small. 

At the larger end of the scale, an Annis (7HD Large creature) becomes an 18HD Netherese Zombie - double its original HD plus 4 for being Large.

We may want to apply a cap to the extra Hit Dice, or creatures with a lot of base HD could become extravagant. (E.g. a Gargoyle advanced to 12 HD would become a 28 HD Undead, which seems a bit too much!).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't want to change the hit dice of the base creature with this template.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Two points: 

If we're keeping Int 10 (and presumably some cap on other mental stats), that would maybe be enough of a penalty but would gimp casters too much I think.  Let's just ditch the 2/3 thing or come up with some creative SQ, like a restriction on actions (not as severe as a normal zombie, though).

Maybe the reason the standard Netherese zombie has 6HD is just that they're usually made from people with levels?


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe the reason the standard Netherese zombie has 6HD is just that they're usually made from people with levels?




The problem with that is the description it pretty clear that any old peasant can be turned into a Netherese Zombie with 6 HD, with "entire villages" being converted.

Hmm, how about we make the rank and file Netherese Zombies comparable to Vampire Spawn, with fixed HD and lower mental stats, by doing something like this:

If the subject has 5 or fewer class levels, they come back as a 6HD "base creature" Undead without class levels.

If the subject has 6+ class levels, they keep their class levels and become a "templated" Undead, which may be independent of the Lich Lord.



freyar said:


> If we're keeping Int 10 (and presumably some cap on other mental stats), that would maybe be enough of a penalty but would gimp casters too much I think. Let's just ditch the 2/3 thing or come up with some creative SQ, like a restriction on actions (not as severe as a normal zombie, though).




Upon reflection, I think we could forget about the cap and just give them a penalty of -4 or so on all their mental stats. An ordinary joe character with the non-elite array has Int 13-14 tops, so that puts the smarter civilian Netherese zombies at Int 9-10.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

We could stray a bit from the original text, and make the Neth zombies the "elite leaders" of lesser zombies, and make their "create spawn" ability create normal zombies from those of less than 6 HD to begin with.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Shade's text-straying appeals to me somewhat, but on the other hand, there are already ju-ju zombies which fill that role (except for the spawn-making). Cleon's vampire spawn analogy is somewhat appealing.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Good point.  Let's go the vampire spawn route.

In that case, shall we stat up that version first, as a monster, before moving onto the template for the "true" version?


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good point.  Let's go the vampire spawn route.
> 
> In that case, shall we stat up that version first, as a monster, before moving onto the template for the "true" version?




That seems the more sensible way to do it.

If we do it as something in between a Vampire Spawn and a Zombie, we get something like:

Medium Undead

6d12 Hit Dice, +3 for Toughness (which Zombies get as a bonus feat)

Abilities - we could just average a Vampire Spawn and Zombie Commoner, that would give us something like:

Str 14, Dex 11, Con -, Int 6-7, Wis 11, Cha 7-8

That looks about right.

Speed should probably be 30 ft. (6 squares; cannot Run), like a standard zombie.

A Netherese Zombies' AD&D AC of 6 translates as AC14 in 3E, which suggests +4 natural.

Attacks are either two claws or by weapon. I'm thinking the claws do the same damage as the SRD skeleton (1d4+2 including their Strength), which works out pretty close to the original's 2-8 as far as average damage goes.

Toss in create spawn and the ability to rebuke non-intelligent undead.

Oh, speaking of creating spawn, I was thinking the "rank and file" Netherese Zombies may only be able to create regular zombies and skeletons, while the "elite" Netherese Zombies are the ones who make more Netherese Zombies. Otherwise, were do they get a supply of mindless Undead for them to practice their Rebuke power on?

They'll likely have Damage Resistance 5/slashing like an SRD zombie too.

They'll need a fairly substantial turn resistance, since they're "turned as spectres". The latter are turned as 9HD Undead (7HD +2 turn resistance), which would require a +3 turn resistance for our 6HD Netherese Zombies to get the same 9HD total turn resistance.

That doesn't leave much, apart from working out their 3 feats and 18 skill points it's a pretty complete outline.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

Most of that sounds good.

Usually, we would take "turned as spectres" to mean that they get the same turn resistance.

I'm a bit torn about the reduced spawn creation.  The original text wouldn't really suggest a distinction, but we're already mixing things up a little by splitting into two critters.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> Usually, we would take "turned as spectres" to mean that they get the same turn resistance.




Exactly.  That translation usually works fine with conversions.  So +2 turn resistance here.

Bump Int to 8 (per the original writeup) and Cha to 10 or 12 (since they are commanding other undead), and I'm happy with the rest.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm a bit torn about the reduced spawn creation.  The original text wouldn't really suggest a distinction, but we're already mixing things up a little by splitting into two critters.




I was thinking this over while travelling on the tube yesterday and came up with this:
*Create Spawn (Sp):* A netherese zombie can turn the dead body of any corporeal creature into an undead. If the corpse is a humanoid or monstrous humanoid which was killed by a netherese zombie within 24 hours, it rises with the Netherese Zombie template (q.v.). Any other corpse is reanimated with either the skeleton or the zombie template, depending on how much flesh remains on the cadavar. This ability is equivalent to a 5th level spell.​That gives us both worlds - it can turn people its slain into more Netherese Zombies, and turn livestock pens and graveyards into recruiting grounds for a mindless army of slaves.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Just give it real create spawn (it kills something, they come back as Netherese zombies) and animate dead as an SLA.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Should the "vampire spawn" equivalent monster version even be able to create the greater Neth zombies?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Good point. Like the vampires, the Neth zombie monster should only be able to make monsters, whereas the templated version can make either, depending on the HD of the victim (?)


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Should the "vampire spawn" equivalent monster version even be able to create the greater Neth zombies?




I'd thought of that, and felt that they should do both, partly for simplicity (1 power instead of 2) and partly to differentiate them from the usual spawn/master type undead. Since Netherese Zombies cant control Netherese Zombies they create but only mindless undead, we don't have to worry about a "spawn" being master of an "elite".

Besides, I suspect the source of the undead-creation power is the Lich Lord, not the Netherese Zombie itself, who is just acting as a proxy. The original description implies they create undead through a spell-like ability (it make an analogy to '_raise dead_'), so if it does take an elite to create another elite maybe after they slaughter a village the elites sort out the dead and raise the higher-level ones, leaving the rest for the spawn to raise as regular zombies?


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

hmmm.



> The Neth zombie that defeats an opponent can then choose to raise dead on that creature, transforming him into a Netherese zombie in 1d4 turns. As the transformation comes to fruition, the skin slowly turns a pale white, fingernails become sharp, and the eyes sink in a bit.
> ...
> Zombies of Netherese variety can also control nonthinking undead (skeletons, normal zombies, and others) within 30 feet. Such control is equivalent to that of an evil priest who successfully controls undead.




While I see Cleon's desire to make the spawning more of a choice, I think the usual Create Spawn works better.  Standardization is good.  

I do like the idea that both the monster and template version have essentially the same ability.  Perhaps, though, only the claw attacks trigger Create Spawn, so a Neth zombie with a weapon can choose not to create another.

I'm not sure about the Lich Lord being the source of the animation, since some have "gone wild."


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> While I see Cleon's desire to make the spawning more of a choice, I think the usual Create Spawn works better.  Standardization is good.




Variety is the spice of life! 

Different strokes for different folks, "standardisation is good" is more or less the reverse of my philosophy on monster design. Plus, as I suspect you've noticed, I like to keep as close to the details of the original version as possible, hence my preferring it as a spell-like ability due to the description comparing it to _raise dead_.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

I fall somewhere in the middle on the design philosopy these days.  

I do think create spawn works best in this case, and allow the greater, "templated" version to create the more powerful spawn.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I do like the idea that both the monster and template version have essentially the same ability. Perhaps, though, only the claw attacks trigger Create Spawn, so a Neth zombie with a weapon can choose not to create another.




That's an interesting point.  It does seem odd that creatures slain with a plain ol' weapon arise as undead (even though it's often the case in 3.5).


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, I like to follow he original text mostly, but I think it helps the DM (and world consistency sort of) to follow precedent.  But that's not really here or there. 

As far as weapon use, we can go either way with create spawn.  Note that some undead only trigger create spawn with some attacks (or it works differently with different attacks), often energy drain for example.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 27

Feats: Toughness (B), 3 more

Organization: Solitary or x (2–16)

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (claw)


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Sounds good.

Listen, Search, Spot for the skills?


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (claw)




Don't like Improved Initiative for them. While they're not slow like regular zombies, I don't think standard Netherese Zombies should be any faster off the mark than a typical human.

My first pick was Great Fortitude, but there's lots of other options - Blind-Fight like a Wight? Alertness like a Wight or Vampire?

I think I'd go for Great Fortitude, it's a good match with their Toughness bonus feat.

So, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (claw)?


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Sounds good.

Thoughts on the skills?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't know why they would want to take Great Fortitude. Name a single Fort effect that affects the undead, besides disintegrate.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Listen, Search, Spot work for the skills.

demiurge makes a good point about Great Fort.  If not Imp Init, Blind-Fight works.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Yeah, good point.  Dropping Great Fortitude.   I have no problem with Improved Initiative, even if the original didn't say they were any swifter to react than an average human.  If it's a sticking point, though, Blind-Fight works for me.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–16)

Advancement: x

CR 3?  Despite the higher HD/hp, the lack of dangerous SAs (and less attacks) makes me thing they are no better than a ghast.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't think it's a sticking point for anyone but Cleon. And CR 3 seems pretty reasonable to me.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

CR 3 is ok.  I don't mind either feat.  Cleon, does Imp Init feel better if we remember that it's not a bonus feat but a "standard customization" feat for these monsters?

On to the templated version!


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium)?


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 3 is ok.  I don't mind either feat.  Cleon, does Imp Init feel better if we remember that it's not a bonus feat but a "standard customization" feat for these monsters?
> 
> On to the templated version!




Not really, no. I feel that only the templated version of these undead is likely to have much variation in its feats.

I'll agree with the problem about Great Fortitude, so I'll back Blind-Fight as the third feat. The notion of them having uncanny senses works for me a lot more than better initiative.

The proposed skills and Challenge Rating 3 are fine by me.

I would think they have no Advancement, like standard zombies of a base creature that advances by character class - although the templated version could either advance by character class or be fixed at the level at which it died, I can see it going either way.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I agree with Cleon that the base monster shouldn't advance, but continue to support Improved Initiative.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

I'll let Shade make the call on the feat, and I'll agree with everyone on no advancement for the base Neth zombies.

I think the templates should probably stop advancing after becoming zombies since the Lichlord usually appoints other typs of undead as commanders when needed.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

I think I prefer II to Blind-fight.

Updated.

Ready for the templated version?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm good for the template.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think I prefer II to Blind-fight.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Ready for the templated version?




Looks OK, although I'd like tweak the wording of Rebuke Mindless Undead to clarify "Mindless", i.e.:
*Rebuke Mindless Undead (Su):* A Netherese zombie can rebuke and command undead as cleric of a level equal to its Hit Dice. However, it can only use this ability on undead that have no intelligence score.​Otherwise, on to the template!


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

So, for the template, reverse-engineering the monster yields...

+4 natural armor
2 claw attacks (1d4)
Special Attacks: Create spawn, rebuke mindless undead
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/slashing, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Str +4, Int -2, Cha +2, no Con score
Toughness as a bonus feat.

Did we discuss allowing the create spawn ability to impose the template on those who meet the criteria, and all others become the monster version?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

We were going to make the template somewhat more powerful than the monster, right?  In that case, let's drop the Int penalty.  And yes on templated spawn.  Maybe we want to bump the DR a little or give them some other slight benefit (based on HD?).


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> So, for the template, reverse-engineering the monster yields...
> 
> ...




That's right, I thought we'd settled on the template would be applied to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids with 6 or more class levels, those with 5 or less become standard Netherese Zombies.

The claw attacks will need to scale with the base creature's size. We can use the progression of the SRD skeleton.



freyar said:


> We were going to make the template somewhat more powerful than the monster, right? In that case, let's drop the Int penalty. And yes on templated spawn. Maybe we want to bump the DR a little or give them some other slight benefit (based on HD?).




They keep their skills, feats and class features assuming there's class or alignment conflict, that should be benefit enough. It also means I'll agree about dropping the Int penalty, since if we gave them one we'd have to recalculate their skills.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

I can agree to that, sure.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

Perhaps boost their DR to 5/slashing and silver?


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

That's ok with me, though Cleon made the case that class abilities are enough of a boost.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

I kinda like adding the "and silver".  Something to make 'em just a bit better than the run of the mill muckety-mucks.

BTW, do we need to call these "greater Netherese zombies"?  Or call the others "Netherese zombie spawn" or something?   I find calling them "templated version" and "monster version" clunky.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm happy with either of your proposed name changes.  And I do support making these a little tougher.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Updated.

I'll await the others' reactions before changing either name.

Organization: ??.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1?

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: By character class?

Level Adjustment: —?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps boost their DR to 5/slashing and silver?




I'll go along with that. It doesn't make an enormous difference.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'll await the others' reactions before changing either name.




Well I guess I'll vote for Lesser and Greater for the versions without and with the template.

I've looked through the current draft of the template and have a couple of queries.

Firstly, I thought we were allowing Monstrous Humanoid as well as Humanoid, like the Vampire template does.

e.g.:“Netherese zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with at least six levels in a character class (referred to hereafter as the base creature).​Secondly, I think the natural armour add should be added to its current NA, if any, since that's how it works for the Zombie and Vampire templates.

e.g.:The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +4. ​


Shade said:


> Organization: ??.
> 
> Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1?
> 
> ...




Hmm, let me think for a moment.

I like the idea of the organization names referring to how they kill & raise those they come across (gangs of farmers, party's of adventurers, merchant caravans or entire hamlets).

Maybe something like:

*Organization:* Solitary; gang (1 greater netherese zombie and 2-12 lesser netherese zombies); party (2-8 greater netherese zombies); caravan (1-4 greater netherese zombies and 10-100 lesser netherese zombies) or village (1-10 greater netherese zombies and 40-400 lesser netherese zombies)

*Challenge Rating* +1 seems about right. They're a bit tougher and gain Undead immunities.

*Treasure* should be standard I guess. Presumably they would retain whatever gear they had in life.
*
Advancement *would definitely be by character class.

I guess they should have a *Level Advancement* since, in theory at least, you can have a PC one. Somewhere around +3 or +4 I guess.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I guess I'll vote for Lesser and Greater for the versions without and with the template.



 Sounds good.



> I've looked through the current draft of the template and have a couple of queries.
> 
> Firstly, I thought we were allowing Monstrous Humanoid as well as Humanoid, like the Vampire template does.
> 
> e.g.:“Netherese zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with at least six levels in a character class (referred to hereafter as the base creature).​



I don't remember whether we discussed this or not, but allowing monstrous humanoids makes sense.  The same change should also then be added to the create spawn entry.


> Secondly, I think the natural armour add should be added to its current NA, if any, since that's how it works for the Zombie and Vampire templates.
> 
> e.g.:The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +4. ​




Makes them a little tougher, good.


> Hmm, let me think for a moment.
> 
> I like the idea of the organization names referring to how they kill & raise those they come across (gangs of farmers, party's of adventurers, merchant caravans or entire hamlets).
> 
> ...



Nice!


> *Challenge Rating* +1 seems about right. They're a bit tougher and gain Undead immunities.
> 
> *Treasure* should be standard I guess. Presumably they would retain whatever gear they had in life.
> *
> ...




That all sounds about right.  

One more question: do we want eligibility for this template (and the create spawn entry) to be based on 6 character levels or 6 HD?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> One more question: do we want eligibility for this template (and the create spawn entry) to be based on 6 character levels or 6 HD?




Originally, I was presuming character levels, since I think it's down to the "strength of character" of the subject whether they become Lesser or Greater Netherese Zombies.

However, there is a good argument for it being HD based. It would mean things like Medusas would always become the Greater version, which seems right somehow.

Can't decide which I prefer, I'll have to think about it.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Updated greater and lesser versions.

Any more thoughts on class levels vs. HD?  The medusa argument has me leaning toward HD.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated greater and lesser versions.
> 
> Any more thoughts on class levels vs. HD?  The medusa argument has me leaning toward HD.




Upon reflection, I'll throw my weight behind Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd go for HD, I think.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

So be it.

Updated.

I added a medusa as the sample creature.

Are we finished?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Wow, you're efficient today!

Yeah, we're probably done.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

*Zhentarim Spirit*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Zhentarim-controlled areas
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: High (11-14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: Fl 12 (C)
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hit point drain, possession
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 magical or better weapon needed to hit, spell immunities, invisible and intangible at will
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-6' tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 6,000

A Zhentarim spirit is the essence of a Zhentarim wizard who met with a horrible death at the hands of his or her enemies or treacherous comrades. The spirit of the wizard is extremely vengeful, and by sheer force of will is remaining on the Prime Material Plane until a task is complete or until it takes revenge on those who slew it. Zhentarim spirits are extremely rare, and only the death of a wizard who is greater than 14th level can bring about the creation of one of these spiteful spirits.

Zhentarim spirits are semitransparent spirits that look somewhat like spectres, and those who confuse the two often end up dead. These spirits appear as they did at the time of their deaths, bearing their fatal wounds.

Combat: Zhentarim spirits can no longer cast spells of any kind, but can converse with Prime Material beings in the languages they knew in life. Zhentarim spirits are not undead in the normal sense of the word - that is, they are not affected by holy water, cannot be turned, and are not connected to the Negative Energy Plane. They are simply being held to the Prime Material Plane by their indomitable willpower, refusing to go to their final rest (or judgment) until their killers have been dealt with. A Zhentarim spirit can become invisible and intangible at will, but must materialize to attack.

Zhentarim spirits primarily target their killers. The attack of a Zhentarim spirit drains the hit points of its victim at a rate of 1d8 per strike. The loss of these hit points is permanent to the target of the spirit's vengeance (its killer or killers), while all others regain lost points as normal.

Zhentarim spirits can also possess people through the use of a magic jar ability that they can attempt once per round; a spirit can only possess one person at any one time. A Zhentarim spirit must be within at least one-half mile of the possessed victim to exercise control over him or her. The spirits often use possessed victims to get close to their targets and either kill or injure them. A spirit must relinquish possession of a person before attacking a victim with its draining touch.

Depending on the power possessed by a spirit's intended victim or victims, it will use extreme caution or a straightforward attack. Once those responsible for the death of the spirit's mortal form are dead, the creature will depart for its judgment on the planes. It is impossible to fool the spirit about the death of its victim - it will know if that person (or group of people) is truly dead or not.

Killing Zhentarim spirits is a difficult thing, as they reform by force of will after 100 days if reduced to fewer than 0 hit points. The only way to completely destroy Zhentarim spirits is to kill them using a finger of death, power word, kill, or wish. They receive normal saving throws against these spells.

Zhentarim spirits are immune to all spells except magic missile, protection from evil, finger of death, power word, kill, and wish; all others simply pass through the creatures as if they were immaterial. They are also immune to weapons not of a magical nature (of at least +1 enchantment) and take only normal damage from a mace of disruption.

Habitat/Society: The determination of Zhentarim spirits to annihilate their killers is exceptional, and these creatures defy final judgment for indefinite and extended periods to exact their revenge. This is done through these spirits' force of will (minimum Wisdom of 16), aided by their connection with the magical arts (minimum of 14th-level wizard).

These spirits have so far only been linked with wizards of the Zhentarim, and many think the tendency of Zhentarim wizards to form these spirits is attributable to magical means that they use to extend their lives. A vengeful Zhentarim spirit is formed one to two days after the death of an appropriate Zhentarim wizard, and it immediately sets about planning its revenge.

Ecology: Zhentarim spirits have no need for sustenance or rest, and they continuously seek the destruction of their killer or killers. These spirits exist on the Prime Material Plane until their victim dies or they are destroyed.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Zhentil Keep (1995).

These get a very brief mention in 3e in Monsters of Faerun:



> Zhentarim Spirit: These ghosts are the essences of Zhentarim wizards who met with a horrible death at the hands of their enemies or treacherous comrades. They remain on this plane seeking vengeance, and their worst attacks are reserved for those they hold responsible for their deaths. They possess the special attacks of hit point drain and malevolence.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

The Monsters of Faerun approach might be best. If not... incorporeal monstrous humanoid?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm content to defer to the Monsters of Faerun version and consider these converted, if there are no strong objections.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Wow, you're efficient today!
> 
> Yeah, we're probably done.




Not quite, it appears Shade forgot to add the template's +4 natural armour to the Medusa. It should have AC 19 (+2 Dex, +7 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 17.

Apart from that, I think we're finished.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm content to defer to the Monsters of Faerun version and consider these converted, if there are no strong objections.




No objections from me.


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## Leopold (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm content to defer to the Monsters of Faerun version and consider these converted, if there are no strong objections.




Why fix it if it ain't broke?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

No objections here either.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, that was an exceptionally easy conversion.  And I'd say that WotC got this right in Monsters of Faerun.  They read precisely like ghosts except for some of the immunities.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2009)

*Bi-Nou*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Special (eggs)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 5+5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8/1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, squeeze
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to blinding, mind-affeting spells, and psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (5’-7’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 975

Appearing as craggy columns with two short, jagged arms ending in spiky claws, bi-nou look like stalagmites. Their shapes render them practically invisible in a cavern filled with natural rocky outcroppings, stalactites, and stalagmites.

Common bi-nou range from five to seven feet tall and weigh from 600 to 1,000 pounds.  Their rocky skin varies in color from off-white to dark gray, and they prefer to live in underground chambers where the natural rock color mimicks their own.

The bi-nou communicate telepathically in their own language and in drow, as they possess neither mouths nor vocal cords.

Combat: Bi-nou are 70% likely to remain unnoticed when encountered. They do not see or hear by conventional means, and are effectively deaf and blind. However, they sense heat and vibrations, having a form of batlike sonar. Their unique senses give them a clear mental image of the size and shape of opponents within 80 feet, and they can distinguish between living and non-living matter. They ignore any penalties related to blinding effects (e.g., invisibility, darkness, light, etc.).

Bi-nou do not work together to attack their foes. They act independently, killing all living creatures entering their caverns. Despite their chaotic natures, some bi-nou have learned to hold their attacks until creatures move within 40 feet; this gives the monsters time to observe their foes.

Bi-nou often attack first with their innate spell abilities. Each of the following spells is usable once a day as if cast by a 10th-level wizard: slow, dig, stone shape, and wall of stone.

When foes are within striking range of a bi-nou, it strikes with two jagged limbs. If both limbs strike the same creature, the bi-nou snares the opponent and squeezes it against its rocky body. The creature suffers an additional ld8 points of damage per round until it frees itself with a successful bend bars/lift gates roll, the bi-nou is killed, or it suffocates. 

Although bi-nou have natural magic resistance, certain spells can be deadly to them. Passwall stuns them for ld4 rounds instead of having its normal effect, and rock to mud slays them instantly. Stone shape operates as a heal spell, restoring all but ld4 of a bi-nou's hit points.
A bi-nou's mind is different enough from other creatures’ to make it immune to mind-affecting spells and psionic attacks.

Habitat/Society:  Bi-nou hate all warm-blooded life—especially humans and humanoids, who hunt and steal their gem-like eggs.  Bi-nou do not hesitate to attack groups of humanoids, even if the odds are against them.  Only sick bi-nou or the very young fail to attack trespassers in their domains.  Sages believe that when multiple bi-nou are present, they make contests of the killings, though all slain creatures are consumed as food.  If the creatures were tampering with bi-nou eggs, there seems to be even a bit of malicious enjoyment in the kill.

Bi-nou are found either individually or in small family groups.  Individuals tend to be rogue young or outcast adults.  Groups are ruled by the largest bi-nou, and the leader’s clan follows orders without question (save those pertaining to combat).  The leader selects the cavern lair, determines which of his charges warm the eggs, and metes out punishment if eggs are harmed or stolen.  Any bi-nou clan will have 2-8 eggs, each valued at 100-1,000 gp.  The eggs are hard and facted like gems, and are prized by dwarves, who have come to recongnize their value and rarity.

Bi-nou prefer damp, drafty caverns, where it is easier to sense their prey.  Such a cavern is likely to hold remnants of weapons and armor, as the bi-nou consume humans and other beings and animals by absorbing the fleshy parts.  The rock creatures don’t value these discarded “unlife things”, though they have learned that other living beings—especially humans and demihumans—are attracted to the objects.  Bi-nou have been known to use their sotone shape ability to put the metallic leftovers on rocky pedestals to attract the attention of passing adventurers.

Bi-nou also have been known to ally with drow—when the number of dark elves is sufficient to pose a serious threat to their clan.  The bi-nou act as sentries for drow communities and outposts, attacking and devouring trespassers, including drow who do not beolong to the community they guard.  A few bi-nou even act as guards for the dark elves, moving through their underground caverns and battling creatures that threaten the drow.

Ecology:  Bi-nou are carnivorous, savoring the taste of animal, human, and demihuman flesh.  They devour their victims by moving their forms over the bodies and absorbing all flesh.  A bi-nou’s treasure consists of unfortunate adventurers’ gear and the rock creatures’ eggs.  Most equipment is worthless, damaged when the rock creatures absorb their prey.  However, magical equipment tends to stay in reasonable shape.  Bi-nou corpses are used by certain dwarven builders, especially duergar, as solid stone building materials.

Bi-nou are hunted by dwarves, particularly duergar, who have discovered the rock creatures’ eggs are valuable and that armor and weapons can be found in some lairs.  The eggs are prevented from hatching by keeping them cold for many hours, killing the young inside.  This ensures the eggs retain their gemlike appearance and value.  Bi-nou eggs vary in size and color, the younger eggs being smaller but of brighter hue, while the older eggs are larger but lose much of their sheen.

No one knows exactly what the bi-nou are or how they came to be.  Most sages believe bi-nou are living rocks created by some dark experiments of the drow.  Some swear the rock creatures were spawned by the mage Halaster to act as guardians; they say that drow, while malign, are not known to create living things out of such crude matter.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2009)

Aberration (Earth)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds fair. The need to eat rules out Elemental. So, camouflage/racial bonus to hide, improved grab and constrict, SLAs?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds like a good summary to me.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

A good summary indeed.

Body structure is similar to a roper, although smaller.

Taking a roper's stats...
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12

And sizing down to Medium yields...
Str 11, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12

Mental stats actually should be appropriate, as the Int matches the writeup.  Str probably needs a boost, and possibly Con as well.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

Put it back to Con 17 and go with Str 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds good. Ropers are sort of physically weak, but ridiculously deadly all the same. It's the ten tendrils with Str drain.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Should the "jagged limbs" be claw attacks, or tentacle attacks that deal half piercing or slashing damage?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I had thought claws, but a tentacle or slam with half piercing would be appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

The illustration for a bi-nou I have in my 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium Annual (Vol 2) gives them honest arms, with spindly fingers. So claws or slams.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Claws, I think, based on the sound of that illustration.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Claws it is!



> Appearing as craggy columns with two short, jagged arms ending in spiky claws, bi-nou look like stalagmites. Their shapes render them practically invisible in a cavern filled with natural rocky outcroppings, stalactites, and stalagmites.




Camouflage, or high Hide bonus in underground natural environs?



> The bi-nou communicate telepathically in their own language and in drow, as they possess neither mouths nor vocal cords.




Suggested telepathy range?  The usual 60 feet, or 80 feet like their blindsight?



> Bi-nou often attack first with their innate spell abilities. Each of the following spells is usable once a day as if cast by a 10th-level wizard: slow, dig, stone shape, and wall of stone.




Here's a conversion of dig we did earlier...

Dig (Su): Three times per day, a group of two or more scavenger spirits can supernaturally unearth coffins or clear the way to buried tombs. This functions as a move earth spell, with the following differences. Each round that the scavenger spirits maintain concentration, they can move a 10-foot cube of earth, and they may maintain concentration for as many rounds as their combined hit dice. Unlike the move earth spell, the scavenger spirits' dig ability may form tunnels. Caster level 4th. This is the equivalent of an 3rd-level spell. 



> When foes are within striking range of a bi-nou, it strikes with two jagged limbs. If both limbs strike the same creature, the bi-nou snares the opponent and squeezes it against its rocky body. The creature suffers an additional ld8 points of damage per round until it frees itself with a successful bend bars/lift gates roll, the bi-nou is killed, or it suffocates.




Constrict damage equals claw damage?



> Although bi-nou have natural magic resistance, certain spells can be deadly to them. Passwall stuns them for ld4 rounds instead of having its normal effect, and rock to mud slays them instantly. Stone shape operates as a heal spell, restoring all but ld4 of a bi-nou's hit points.




Keep these as is?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

The all but 1d4 thing for the heal should be dropped, as that's not what heal does anymore. Other than that, the spell vulnerabilities look good.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Agreed with demiurge on the spells.

Hide bonus, boost both telepathy to 100 ft and blindsight to 120 ft to be more normal, constrict equals claw (or should we call it something else?), dig as written but only one bi-nou needed (not two or more).


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Updated.

Borrow this from the underdark landwyrm?

*They have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in rocky, underground environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the landwyrm is immobile.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

That works!  Should we boost to +8/+12, or do you think that's enough already?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Let's figure out feats and skills, and see if they need the added boost.

Skills: 24
Hide (obviously), what else?

Feats: 2


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Hide, Spot, maybe Climb?  Given their flavor text, I wonder if they should have a racial penalty to Listen or the deaf SQ.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Look closer.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Maybe I should have the blind SQ today!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

Great Fort and Weapon Focus (claw)?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Feats sound good.

Climb and Hide are good skill choices.  Maybe Move Silently for the 3rd?   Should we give them a slow climb speed to allow for them to emulate stalactites?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, if they're hanging upside-down from the ceiling, perhaps a spider climb Su is more appropriate. I think they should stay grounded, though.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Keeping on the ground appeals to me.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, if they're hanging upside-down from the ceiling, perhaps a spider climb Su is more appropriate. I think they should stay grounded, though.




It says "bi-nou look like stalagmites", so presumably they are ground-bound. How about giving them Move Silently, so they can inch up to their victims without being heard?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2009)

Move Silently seems appropriate. A few ranks in Climb isn't a bad idea, so they can clamber about in difficult caves, but definately not a Climb speed or spider climb.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x



> Any bi-nou clan will have 2-8 eggs, each valued at 100-1,000 gp.  The eggs are hard and facted like gems, and are prized by dwarves, who have come to recongnize their value and rarity.






> Bi-nou prefer damp, drafty caverns, where it is easier to sense their prey.  Such a cavern is likely to hold remnants of weapons and armor, as the bi-nou consume humans and other beings and animals by absorbing the fleshy parts.  The rock creatures don’t value these discarded “unlife things”, though they have learned that other living beings—especially humans and demihumans—are attracted to the objects.  Bi-nou have been known to use their stone shape ability to put the metallic leftovers on rocky pedestals to attract the attention of passing adventurers.






> A bi-nou’s treasure consists of unfortunate adventurers’ gear and the rock creatures’ eggs.  Most equipment is worthless, damaged when the rock creatures absorb their prey.  However, magical equipment tends to stay in reasonable shape.  Bi-nou corpses are used by certain dwarven builders, especially duergar, as solid stone building materials.




Treasure: 50% coins; standard goods (gems and metallic items only); standard items (metallic only)?

Alignment: Always chaotic evil?

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Suggestions look good.

CR 3, I guess.  The AC is a touch high but OK.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Looks done!


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Now for the first of two related creatures...

*Bi-Nou, Rockworm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Special (eggs)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12/1d12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (5’-7’ long)
MORALE: Champion (15)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 2,000

Closely related to bi-nou, rockworms appear as stone snakes with arms. They move along the ground like reptiles. Rockworms are not capable of upright stance. They travel like ungainly snakes along cavern floors, using their jagged arms to help propel themselves. Sages speculate that rockworms are the predecessors of standard bi-nou, magically-created beings with which their maker or makers were not satisfied. (This is not true, however. Rockworms and bi-nou were created simultaneously from different experiments.)

Rockworms are malicious, seeming to hate all creatures that walk rather than crawl. Their attacking small groups of standard bi-nou to vie for cavern territory or to claim food killed by their upright kin is not unheard of. Like bi-nou, the rockworms particularly hunt out humans and demihumans as thieves of their eggs.

Unlike the bi-nou, rockworms do not attempt to hide in their surroundings-they lumber to the attack as soon as they see a potential meal. Rockworms do not fear alerting their prey to their presence. The segmented creatures know their thick skin is impervious to most attacks and believe they can eventually overtake most quarries.

Like standard bi-nou, rockworms lay valuable eggs. However, unlike their kin, they warm their own eggs, leaving them only for short times to catch nearby food. In this respect they act as parents, while bi-nou in a clan are assigned to egg-warming duty and never know which young are their own. Dwarves are more careful when hunting rockworms. Although the stone snakes are less intelligent, they can be more deadly.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Start with the bi-nou and just modify from there?  They seem pretty similar.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

I would say the bi-nou is CR 4. It's got the same hp as a gargoyle, but a higher AC. Less attacks and no DR, but SR, SLAs and grappling.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I'd suggest changing the Treasure to "Treasure: 50% coins; standard goods (gems and metallic goods only); standard items (crystalline and metallic items only)", so it can have items made of non-metallic but tough materials, such as stone or crystal.

Plus, I'm not keen on Always Chaotic Evil. I'd rather they be Usually CE, like Ropers.

Apart from those quibbles it looks fine.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I would say the bi-nou is CR 4. It's got the same hp as a gargoyle, but a higher AC. Less attacks and no DR, but SR, SLAs and grappling.




Good points, I'll agree CR4 would suit them.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> Start with the bi-nou and just modify from there?  They seem pretty similar.




Makes sense.

Increase natural armour to +10.

Halve Intelligence to Int 6.

Perhaps increase the Strength, as they do more damage - Str 19? - although we could just increase the damage dice.

Drop the Climb and Hide skills, leaving only the Move Silently?

Drop the Constrict, Improved Grab, Telepathy and Spell-Like Abilities?

I like leaving them the Bi-Nou's Dig SA, since it seems appropriate.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2009)

CR 4 for the bi-nou is fine, and it helps out with the high AC.

I alos agree to Cleon's summary for the rockworms.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 4 for the bi-nou is fine, and it helps out with the high AC.
> 
> I alos agree to Cleon's summary for the rockworms.




OK, I'll apply those changes to the Bi-Nou's stats to see what that gets us. 

Shall we give the Rockworm CR4 or 3?

It lacks most of the Bi-Nou's supernatural abilities, but is a bit tougher, I guess CR3 will do.

EDIT: I changed its organization to solitary or pair, and its Treasure to goods (special - see below), since its eggs appear to be its only valuables.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2009)

*Building a Rockworm*

*Bi-Nou, Rockworm*
Medium Aberration (Earth)
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp) 
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (+2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+75
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Dig
Special Qualities: Blind, blindsight 120 ft., deaf, immunity to mind-affection spells and abilities, scent, spell resistance 8, spell vulnerabilities
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Move Silently +10, Survival +3* (+7 to track by scent)
Feats: Great Fortitude, Track (B), Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or pair (2)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard goods (special - see below)
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

_What appeared to be a fallen stalagmite is actually a wormlike creature with two short, jagged arms ending in spiky claws._

Description (gemlike eggs)

COMBAT

Tactics (crawl in pursuit)

Blind (Ex) A rockworm is immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.

Deaf (Ex): A rockworm is completely incapable of perceiving sound, and is thus immune to language-dependent effects and sonic effects dependent on hearing. The creature has adapted to this limitation and thus suffers no penalty on initiative checks because of its deafness.

Dig (Su): Once per day, a rockworm can supernaturally dig through the earth. This functions as a _move earth_ spell, with the following differences. Each round that the rockworm maintains concentration, it can move a 10-foot cube of earth, and it may maintain concentration for as many rounds as its Hit Dice. Unlike the move earth spell, the rockworm's dig ability may form tunnels. Caster level 10th. This is the equivalent of an 3rd-level spell. 

Spell Vulnerabilities (Ex): Certain spells and effects function differently against a rockworm, as noted below.

A _passwall _spell stuns a rockwormfor 1d4 rounds.

A _transmute rock to mud_ spell slays a rockworm instantly.

A _stone shape_ spell fully heals a rockworm.

Skills: *A rockworm has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks to track by scent.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2009)

According to their description rockworms don't ambush victims, they chase prey until they overtake them. 

That implies they have some means of following a trail.

Should we give them Scent and Track as a bonus feat, with a racial bonus on tracking by scent?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2009)

I'm not seeing Scent, but Track as a bonus feat is good.  They can track with blindsight, right?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2009)

Not really. With blindsight, they have to be within a specific area, else they can't sense them at all. I think that means Scent should be added.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2009)

Blindsight can't see the tracks?  I guess that's fair if you can't read with it.  In that case, let's go for Scent.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Blindsight can't see the tracks?  I guess that's fair if you can't read with it.  In that case, let's go for Scent.




Sounds like we're agreed then. I'll edit the *rough draft* to add Scent and Track.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

Updated Bi-nou.

Added Rockworm.

Note that they have 7 HD, not 5 like the bi-nou.

Despite the original writeup, I'm not convinced we should drop the improved grab and constrict, considering they have the same appendages and attack routines.

Also, if we drop the telepathy, they will lack all ability to communicate.  With Int 6, I think that may be a bit extreme.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2009)

I think I agree with you on both counts, Shade.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm okay with imp. grab, constrict and telepathy.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated Bi-nou.
> 
> Added Rockworm.
> 
> Note that they have 7 HD, not 5 like the bi-nou.




Gah! How did I not change them to HD 7, I thought I'd gone through the original stats pretty carefully.



Shade said:


> Despite the original writeup, I'm not convinced we should drop the improved grab and constrict, considering they have the same appendages and attack routines.
> 
> Also, if we drop the telepathy, they will lack all ability to communicate.  With Int 6, I think that may be a bit extreme.




Well I tend to prefer to stick with the Rockworm's original description, which lacks the said SA and SQ.

Their jagged arms could easily be articulated differently than the Bi-nou's, since they're crawling creatures that use their limbs to help move themselves.

As for their lack of communication ability, they can still "see" each other with blindsight, so they could easily use a combination of sign-language and vibration to communicate, plus maybe use pheromones, now we've given them scent.

Still, I won't stand in your way if you insist on including them.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Let's keep all that.  The upcoming rocklords should be a better fit for your more primal method of communication.  

Updated.

Skills: 10 ranks

Feats: Great Fortitude, Track (B), Weapon Focus (claw), 1 more

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 8-10 HD (Medium); 11-21 HD (Large)?


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Climb, maybe?

Reckless Offense seems to fit.

CR 5.

Suggested advancement appeals.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's keep all that.  The upcoming rocklords should be a better fit for your more primal method of communication.




Very well.



Shade said:


> Skills: 10 ranks




Split between Climb and Move Silently?



Shade said:


> Feats: Great Fortitude, Track (B), Weapon Focus (claw), 1 more




I can't think of any other interesting feat that suits them, just the boring usual suspects (Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack etc).

How about just making Track a regular feat instead of a bonus one. 



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




I was going to go for CR4 but adding the Constrict and Improved Grab probably edges them over the border into CR5. They are tougher combatants than a Bi-Nou.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 8-10 HD (Medium); 11-21 HD (Large)?




That looks fine to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

Definitely CR 5, and I like freyar's suggested feat.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Definitely CR 5, and I like freyar's suggested feat.




Me too.  That feat is woefully underused.

Back to skills for a minute...shouldn't we give them Survival ranks, since they track prey?

Updated with Climb 2, Move Silently 3, Survival 5?

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

Skills look good.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

It looks like we've finished the rockworm.  Here's the last of the bi-nou...

*Bi-Nou, Rocklord*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Special (hide)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d6/3d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: L (8’-15’ long)
MORALE: Champion (15)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 5,000

More massive than rockworms, the “lords of stone,” as many call them, are deadly foes because of the massive amount of damage their stony appendages can deliver. Appearing as a stalagmite with larger limbs than a common bi-nou, these creatures can move upright or slither across the floor. Their thick hides make them very difficult to injure. Some sages believe rocklords are simply very old rockworms. They do not lay eggs and they do not associate with others of their kind. However, unlike rockworms, the lords do not battle over possession of a cavern. The hides of these great, craggy creatures are especially prized by underground races who mount war bands to destroy the beasts. The war bands are careful how they attack the lords, as they do not want to overly damage the hide. These are used to construct special buildings meant to keep others out. These rock lord hides are stronger and can withstand more weight and damage than those of rockworms or common bi-nou.

It is rumored that certain proficient dwarven weaponsmiths can create special maces from the skins of rocklords. The smiths claim these weapons are naturally +1 to hit and +3 to damage because of the density of the weapon and the magical properties of the rocklord. However, it takes three times as long to craft one of these weapons as a normal weapon.


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Me too.  That feat is woefully underused.
> 
> Back to skills for a minute...shouldn't we give them Survival ranks, since they track prey?
> 
> ...




If they get a racial bonus on track by scent I don't think they need that many ranks in Survival, which is why I suggested Climb 5, Move Silently 5 for:

*Skills:* Climb +9, Hide +2* (_+6 rocky, +10 immobile rock_), Move Silently +7, Survival +3* (_+7 track by scent_).

That looks better to me, although I wouldn't mind switching a point from MS to Survival, so both its stealth skills are +6 in rocky terrain:

*Skills:* Climb +9, Hide +2* (_+6 rocky, +10 immobile rock_), Move Silently +6, Survival +4* (_+8 track by scent_).


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> It looks like we've finished the rockworm.  Here's the last of the bi-nou...
> 
> *Bi-Nou, Rocklord*




If we just Advanced a Rockworm to Large and dropped its Intelligence a few points it would be a pretty good fit for a Rocklord, except the latter's SR is a little better.


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2009)

That summary seems almost right.  I hope we can do better, though!  I was just thinking that maybe we can do something with the slithering plus standing.  10 ft reach, at least.


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## Cleon (Dec 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> That summary seems almost right.  I hope we can do better, though!  I was just thinking that maybe we can do something with the slithering plus standing.  10 ft reach, at least.




Yes, 10-foot reach would be good.

Apart from being Neutral and having a slightly higher SR, there just isn't anything that's much different from a bigger, dumber Rockworm.

I suppose we could add something about their use in crafting enchanted maces (substitute XP cost?).


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes, 10-foot reach would be good.
> 
> Apart from being Neutral and having a slightly higher SR, there just isn't anything that's much different from a bigger, dumber Rockworm.
> 
> I suppose we could add something about their use in crafting enchanted maces (substitute XP cost?).




How about we break from its original description and give it some SLA or SLA-like supernatural attacks?

It's a Rock*lord*, so maybe it has powers to manipulate rock? A Bi-Nou has Dig, plus slow, stone shape and wall of stone SLAs and it doesn't even have a name implying dominion over stone!

Since it's got a very low Intelligence something crude would seem appropriate, like _transmute rock to mud_ and _transmute mud rock_ (1/day), _move earth_ (3/day), _soften earth and stone_ (at-will), or even the ability to create earth tremors (_earthquake_ centered on self? 1/week?). I'm not that much in favour of an earthquake-power, although it may make an interesting last-ditch defence or retaliatory strike.

We may want to give it a high Charisma to power its supernatural abilities and give it a "Lordly Mien".

Hmm, perhaps they do not battle other Bi-Nou for possession of caverns because they use their powers to create them? After turning the rock to mud or earth they use move earth to open out a cavernous lair, then solidify it back to stone.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, dig, or an amped up version of it, would let them make caverns.  It seems to me that earth glide might work well.  Not positive about SLAs.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't think these guys are literal "lords"...just given that title for being larger and older.

Since these things are only barely sentient, I'd rather not give 'em a bunch of SLAs and increased Cha.   Now a passive Su ability might work...

I'm definitely with you guys on greater reach.

And I'd love to use Cleon's "pherome communication" method instead of telepathy for these "dumb as rock" lords.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

Ok, at least 10 ft reach (maybe exceptional) and pheromone communication.  What do you think about rock glide?


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Earth glide appeals.  

Since they are supposed to be nigh-invulnerable, perhaps they can use an ability similar to the statue spell?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

Earth glide and statue form are nice ways of differentiating these guys further. Let's use 'em.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Earth glide and statue form are nice ways of differentiating these guys further. Let's use 'em.




I can dig that.

Let's make it so.

Don't mind dropping the rock-softening/shaping abilities I suggested, since I was thinking they'd be mostly for set-dressing rather than use in combat.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Here's the statue spell...

*Statue*
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the subject gains hardness 8. The subject retains its own hit points.

The subject can see, hear, and smell normally, but it does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the granite-hard substance of the individual’s body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue’s arms constitutes serious damage.

The subject of a statue spell can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action) if it so desires, as long as the spell duration is in effect.

Material Component: Lime, sand, and a drop of water stirred by an iron bar, such as a nail or spike.



How often should we allow it to assume this form?


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Maybe 1/day for up to an hour?


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe 1/day for up to an hour?




I was thinking more of making it an at-will supernatural ability the Rock Lord can use as often as it likes, but make the rock-to-worm switch a move action and the worm-to-rock switch a standard action (actions modelled after ethereal jaunt).

It should also get some kind of Hide/Camouflage benefit when in rockform.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

Cleon's mechanic sounds pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Updated.

I incorporated the gargoyle's camouflage into the rockform ability.  Look OK?

Skills: 13 ranks
We gave the rockworm Climb, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival

Rocklords range from eight to fifteen feet long and weigh from x to x pounds.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I incorporated the gargoyle's camouflage into the rockform ability.  Look OK?




Looks good to me.



Shade said:


> Skills: 13 ranks
> We gave the rockworm Climb, Hide, Move Silently, and Survival




They don't need much in Climb since they've got such a high Strength.

Climb 1, Hide 5, Move Silently 5, Survival 2?

They're also missing a feat. They should get 4 for their 10 Hit Dice.

Power Attack?



Shade said:


> Rocklords range from eight to fifteen feet long and weigh from x to x pounds.




Scaling up from the rockworm's 5-7 feet and 600-1000 pounds would give us 2500-10000 pounds.

Do we need to add a special treasure type to reflect the value of their hides?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2010)

With their great reach, I think Combat Expertise would benefit them more than Power Attack.


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2010)

They're looking good.  I think you might mean Combat Reflexes for the last feat, to get extra AoOs.  I'd go for that.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 2, 2010)

Yes, that is what I mean.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yes, that is what I mean.




Dang it, for some reason I thought Rock Lords did not have a high enough Dex to get any benefit from Combat Reflexes, so went for Power Attack.

With Dex 13 the one additional AoO would make Combat Reflexes worthwhile.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

Updated.

CR x?

Advancement: 11-21 HD (Large); 22-30 HD (Huge) [maintaining the rockworm's advancement]

Rocklords range from eight to fifteen feet long and weigh from x to x pounds. Their rocky skin varies in color from off-white to dark gray.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

CR 7?

Advancement is fine.  I'll let someone else work out the weight.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

CR 8. They're pretty sturdy and can put out a lot of hurt.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah, they seem worthy of CR 8.

1,500 to 3,000 pounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

That weight seems reasonably to me, although I'm sure Cleon will swing by soon enough with elaborate density and mass calculations.


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## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> That weight seems reasonably to me, although I'm sure Cleon will swing by soon enough with elaborate density and mass calculations.




*Ahem*.

I think somewhere around 5000 pounds is a reasonable average.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd go for Challenge Rating 7. They aren't two CRs better than an average Xorn.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

5,000 pounds it is.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

Dumathoin’s main statue dominates the room at the western end. It has a 30’ wide base, and stands 54’ tall. Smaller representations, only 18’ tall, flank the temple entrance area and the two exits at the western end; each pair exhibits Dumathoin in his glorified aspects of mining and underground exploration, while the main statue glorifies his pure mountain dwarf aspects.

*Mithral Guardian:*
AC 3; MV 9; HD 12; THAC0 9; #AT 1; Dmg 3d12 (fists); SA Negates darkness; SD 10’ R silence, gains hp from magic missiles & lightning; SW +2 magical weapons; MR Nil; SZ H (18.); ML Fearless (20); Int Non- (0); AL Neutral good; XP 7,500.

Notes: 
SA.The mithral guardians automatically dispel any magical darkness. 
SD.The mithral guardian acts as a metal statue until activated; they are immune to all but magical weapons of +2 or greater bonuses. While active, it is surrounded by a silence 15’ radius spell. When attacked by lightning bolts, shocking grasp, or magic missiles, the mithral guardians use the damage to repair themselves.

Originally appeared in Undermountain: The Lost Level (1996).


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

Ok, so these are the 18 ft ones.  Want to do an advanced 54 ft one also?

Compared to golems, 12HD seems low for Huge size.  Want to bump that?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes to all that.  We should bump them to the 22-25 HD range, which is the cutoff for Huge for the stone and iron golems.

Bumping an iron golem to Huge yields...

Str 41, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

Mithral has the same hps as steel, but its hardness is 5 better, suggesting to me we boost the DR by 5.

Mithral also weighs half as much as steel, so these are probably sufficiently lighter than an (upsized) iron golem.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2010)

That all sounds fair to me.  24HD?

I kind of like 2 fist/slam attacks at 3d12+Str, which is just slightly better than what I think a Huge iron golem gets (4d8+Str, though I don't know precisely how to advance 2d10).  

Want to give them full magic immunity as well as healing from specified spells?

There seems a slight contradiction in the radius of the silence aura.  I'd say go with 15 ft since these should be tough.


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> That all sounds fair to me.  24HD?
> 
> I kind of like 2 fist/slam attacks at 3d12+Str, which is just slightly better than what I think a Huge iron golem gets (4d8+Str, though I don't know precisely how to advance 2d10).
> 
> ...




Yes, double the Hit Dice. Mithral is tougher than iron, so the golem should be to.

Rather than specific spells I'd have them heal from Force or Electrical damage.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

Healing from force and electricity works for me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Upsizing an iron golem's natural armor yields +25.  Mithral normally has a higher hardness than iron, so boost it?  Maybe +30?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

Looks good so far, and I agree to +30 natural.

Should it still dispel all magical darkness automatically, or do we want to put a spell level cap on it or something?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2010)

Perhaps a caster level check, similar to a dispel check?


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2010)

That's probably my preference, as well, but give it a substantial effective CL.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

Effective 20th level?


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2010)

Sure.  Have it work like a targeted dispel?

Dispel Darkness (Su?): When a mithral guardian encounters a magical darkness effect, it may dispel the darkness as a free action.  If the mithral guardian's caster level check (effective CL 20th) exceeds a DC of 11 plus the darkness effect's caster level, the darkness is completly dispelled and negated.  This otherwise functions as a targeted use of dispel magic.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Looks good!  Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 25-x HD (Huge); x-x HD (Gargantuan)

A lesser mithral guardian stands 18 feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (Note: Mithral weighs half as much as steel)

Construction suggestions?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good!  Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating 15? It's 6HD and a size larger than a CR13 Iron Golem, and has a DR20!



Shade said:


> Advancement: 25-x HD (Huge); x-x HD (Gargantuan)




An Iron Golem goes 100-150% HD, 150-300% HD. If the Mithral's the same it'll be:

Advancement: 25-36 HD (Huge); 37-72 HD (Gargantuan)



Shade said:


> A lesser mithral guardian stands 18 feet tall and weighs x pounds.   (Note: Mithral weighs half as much as steel)




Going by the weights an Iron Golem is probably roughly 50% hollow, so if the Mithral Golem is solid they'll weight the same.

Still, I'd prefer to think their construction is similar, in which case an 18 foot Mithral Golem should weigh ~8500 pounds.



Shade said:


> Construction suggestions?




Total price around 200,000-300,000 gp?

An Iron Golem requires 5,000 pounds of pure iron plus tinctures with a material cost of 10,000 gp. Mithral costs an extra 500 gp/pound, which would work out at 2,500,000 gp for that amount of metal, or 4,250,000 for the previously estimated 8,500 pound golem.

So, how about manufacture requires 8000 pounds of pure silver and 100 pounds of mithral, plus assorted other metals and rare tinctures, with a total cost of 100,000 gp , and the construction cost is another 100,000 gp, for a total cost of 300,000? [That works out 40,000 silver + 50,000 mithral + 10,000 miscellaneous]

It'll also need an impressive Craft (armorsmithing) or Craft (weaponsmithing) check - maybe DC23?

For spell prerequisites I'm fancying _sunburst _and _permanency_ together with the usual suspects of _geas/quest_, _animate object _and _wish_ or _limited wish_.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

I agree with nearly all of that.

The construction cost its too high, though.  The mithral golem from the Epic-Level Handbook only costs 250,000 gp, and it is CR 21.   Note that it gets around the "price of mithral" problem as follows:



> A mithral golem's body is sculpted from 8 1/2 tons of pure iron and is then polymorphed into mithral (using polymorph any object).




How about the following?

A mithral guardian's body is sculpted from 8,000 pounds of pure silver and 100 pounds of mithral, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 23 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 23 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 20th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, limited wish, permanency, sunburst, caster must be at least 20th level; Price 190,000 gp; Cost 100,000 gp + 7,600 XP.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2010)

Sure thing!


----------



## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I agree with nearly all of that.
> 
> The construction cost its too high, though.  The mithral golem from the Epic-Level Handbook only costs 250,000 gp, and it is CR 21.   Note that it gets around the "price of mithral" problem as follows:
> 
> ...




That last bit made me burst out laughing. When I was drafting the mithral golem's writeup I was going to use that very "polymorph to mithral" trick, but then I looked up the spell in question and discovered:



> This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as  copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, *mithral*,  or adamantine.




So the rules say you can't do that trick with _polymorph any object_! 

However, you can do that with a _wish_, although it's dangerous because it exceeds the standard limit of effects.

So why don't we make it a _wish_ spell - not unreasonable with a CL of 20.



Shade said:


> How about the following?
> 
> A mithral guardian's body is sculpted from 8,000 pounds of pure silver and 100 pounds of mithral, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 23 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 23 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.
> 
> CL 20th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, limited wish, permanency, sunburst, caster must be at least 20th level; Price 190,000 gp; Cost 100,000 gp + 7,600 XP.




The problem with that proposal is, as previously stated, that 4 tons of pure silver costs 40,000 gp (silver = 5 gp/pound) and 100 pounds of mithral costs 50,000 gp (mithral = 500 gp/pound), so the materials still cost 100k.

It's easy enough to fix - just use about a tenth the quantity of silver and mithral and have the main bulk made out of pure iron like an Iron golem.

Something like:

A mithral golem's body is sculpted from 8,000 pounds of pure iron veined and plated with 500 pounds of pure silver, then inset with runes formed from 10 pounds of mithral. A _wish_ spell is used to transform the entire body into mithral during the enchantment process. The total cost of the materials is 20,000 gp, including rare tinctures and admixtures smelted into the metals. Assembling the body requires a DC 23 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC  23 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 20th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, permanency,  sunburst, wish, caster must be at least 20th level; Price 200,000 gp; Cost  110,000 gp + 7,200 XP.

Incidentally, we had better include a note that it's not "real" mithral, so the PCs can't chop it up and sell it for the 4.2 million gp a 8500 pound block of mithral would be worth!


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

That looks fantastic!

Updated.

Ready for the greater version?



> Dumathoin’s main statue dominates the room at the western end. It has a 30’ wide base, and stands 54’ tall. Smaller representations, only 18’ tall, flank the temple entrance area and the two exits at the western end; each pair exhibits Dumathoin in his glorified aspects of mining and underground exploration, while the main statue glorifies his pure mountain dwarf aspects.




Gargantuan and say, 48 HD?

Let's also jazz 'em up a bit.

Dumathoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about including a multifaceted gem in the center of its chest?

Maybe give it a "two-handed mattock made from solidified magma" (treat as a Colossal warhammer that deals additional fire damage)?

Perhaps an ability to trigger a cave-in or collapse?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks fantastic!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




If it's 54 feet tall that's three times taller than the standard 18-foot Mithral Golem, so 48 HD seems suitable. I'd also be tempted to give it a "size and a half" +12 boost to its strength (to Str 53!), since it's in-between a basic Gargantuan (2*height) and Colossal (4*height), although the normal +8 is probably ample.



Shade said:


> Let's also jazz 'em up a bit.
> 
> Dumathoin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...




Let's see, 4d6 for a Gargantuan warhammer.

+28 damage for wielding a two-handed weapon with Strength 49. (or +31 for wielding a two-handed weapon with Strength 53!)

Iterative attacks with a +36 BAB.

Is this going to be _flaming_ or _flaming burst?_ 

Might also want to give it a few SLAs tied to the god's portfolio.

_earthquake_?_

soul bind_ OR _trap the soul_ ? (those "soul gems" may have a darker equivalent used for punishing evildoers)

_guards and wards_?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

48 HD and +12 Str sounds good.

Flaming burst...sure!

Added to Homebrews.

Great idea for guards and wards!  In fact, I can't recall ever seeing another creature have that spell.   I'm also fond of earthquake, but not so much soul bind/trap the soul.

For the SLAs, we should boost the Cha at the very least.  It may need to be at least slightly sentient (Int 3-4?) as well, or perhaps we should change them to Su abilities like the stone golem's slow ability or the clay golem's haste.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2010)

The lesser one looks good, and the greater version is shaping up well.  One thought: since these are associated with Dumathoin and might be created by clerics, we should at least allow miracle as well as wish.

We might want to increase the effective CL for the dispel darkness ability, given the likely CR of these.  Also agreed to earthquake as well as guards and wards (I think there is a template maybe in the AB that grants this, but, yeah, definitely not common!).  As for mental stats, I think the greater versions are likely to be reasonable; they seem like they should be more directly connected to a deity.  So let's boost to at least Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 19 or something like that.  Maybe even more to get the SLA DCs up.


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Great idea for guards and wards!  In fact, I can't recall ever seeing another creature have that spell.   I'm also fond of earthquake, but not so much soul bind/trap the soul.




As you like, we can try to come up with something else for the "chest gem" - maybe steal something from a _helm of brilliance_?

Like _prismatic spray..._



Shade said:


> For the SLAs, we should boost the Cha at the very least.  It may need to be at least slightly sentient (Int 3-4?) as well, or perhaps we should change them to Su abilities like the stone golem's slow ability or the clay golem's haste.




Definitely need to boost the Charisma, maybe to somewhere around 18-24, since we're dealing with such high-level powers?

As for the question of an Intelligence score: on the one hand making them mindless would fit in better with the standard golems, on the other hand it means we could give it Skills and Feats (including Epic Feats, since it has more than 20 HD).

I think I'm going to have to vote for sentience. It'll help it guard those poor, innocent gemstones.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2010)

OK, sentience it is!  Updated with freyar's suggested scores, plus raised Cha a bit higher like Cleon suggested.

Effective caster level 40th for the dispel darkness?

Switch silent aura to Cha-based?

I'm OK with prismatic spray from the gem.  Freyar?

Do we want construction for these, or note that they are only created via divine intervention?


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm ok with all that, and I think I'll go for divine intervention only.


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, sentience it is!  Updated with freyar's suggested scores, plus raised Cha a bit higher like Cleon suggested.
> 
> Effective caster level 40th for the dispel darkness?
> 
> ...




Methinks CL 20 would have been plenty for the dispel darkness.

Should we treat the _prismatic spray_ as a SLA or a (Su) attack?

If it's an SLA it may not have a DC suited to its CR, so making it a Su may make more sense. Then we don't need to give it a very high Cha and it'll still get a good DC from its HD. If the latter, I quite fancy making it once every 1d4+1 rounds rather than X/day.


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm ok with all that, and I think I'll go for divine intervention only.




Suits me.

I certainly wouldn't want my players building one!


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2010)

Updated.

Shall we allow it to speak Dwarven and Terran in a booming voice?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

Absolutely!  And let's stick to CL 40 for dispel darkness.  I really want them dispelling dark a lot!

Skills: Climb, Intimidate, Sense Motive strike me as priorities.  Want any more?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2010)

Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Knowledge (religion) seem appropriate.

Since it exemplifies "dwarvenness", give it stonecunning and stability?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

Yes to stonecutting and stability.

Skill ranks: Climb 10, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Sense Motive 11?  A comment: Sense Motive is to help it know when adventurers are going to be heros or vandals.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

Should we pepper in some Listen and Spot as well, since they are theoretically on the lookout for interlopers and would-be plunderers?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2010)

Good point.  Let's drop Climb in favor of Spot.  Then steal 5 ranks each from the 2 Knowledges for Listen?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

Looking at this again, Int 8 feels wrong with the other higher mental stats.   How about we boost Int to 10, thus giving us 102 skill ranks.  That should cover our needs, methinks.

Also, we might need a single crazy-high skill or two to meet epic feat prereqs, so shall we select feats and then revisit skills?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2010)

Int 10 is fine by me.  Agreed to hold off on assigning ranks till we've decided on feats.  Do you have any ideas?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

We could go the Devastating Critical path (Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus), and maybe Epic Sunder?  Epic Will seems thematically appropriate, and if we want it to be surprisingly agile, we could give it Superior Initiative and/or Epic Reflexes.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2010)

All those sound good, and we'll need to add Imp Init to get Sup Init.  Power Critical for another non-epic feat (hehe, to add to the Devastating Crit!)?  Maybe Imp Bull Rush and Awesome Blow?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Summarizing...

Awesome Blow, Cleave, Devastating Critical, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Overwhelming Critical, Power Attack, Power Critical, Superior Initiative, Weapon Focus

That leaves 2 more feats.  Dire Charge?  Stand Still?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2010)

Dire Charge and Reckless Offense.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Dire Charge and Reckless Offense.



Agreed to that!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Updated.

It looks like none of our feats have skill rank prereqs.

We have 106 ranks.  Stick with Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (religion), and Sense Motive?  Maybe add Listen and/or Spot to detect intruders?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2010)

All of those (including Listen and Spot) sound appropriate.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> All of those (including Listen and Spot) sound appropriate.




This is looking good!

We don't have many skill points to play around with, so does it really  need Climb? Not many golems that I can think of have the skill. Besides, it gets a +21 Climb bonus just from its Strength bonus, which should be enough to cope with everyday obstacles.

Since it's main duty is to deal with interlopers I would think Listen & Spot should be its primary skills, followed by Intimidate & Sense Motive - perhaps 30 ranks apiece in the first two, 21 for the second two?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2010)

I think we should put a rank into Climb, if only for the reason that we can include it in the stat-block. Also, considering its religious role, adding Know (religion) and Know (dungeoneering) makes sense, again if even only a few ranks.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd also like to include all those skills, but the actual rank distribution isn't so important to me.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

How about:  Climb 1, Intimidate 15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Listen 25, Sense Motive 20, Spot 25. and a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks (a "divine blessing", if you will)?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd be happy with that!


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x
It's deadlier than the CR 25 adamantine golem, but may or not be as good as a CR 27 flesh colossus.   CR 26?

A greater mithral guardian stands 54 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about:  Climb 1, Intimidate 15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Listen 25, Sense Motive 20, Spot 25. and a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks (a "divine blessing", if you will)?




Those skill ranks are fine by me.



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> It's deadlier than the CR 25 adamantine golem, but may or not be as good  as a CR 27 flesh colossus.   CR 26?
> ...




CR26 makes sense.

Scaling up our 18-foot, 8500-pound Mithral Golem to 54 foot works out 229500 pounds.

Round it up to 120 tons? (240,000 pounds)


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2010)

Sounds good.  We can always count on you for the weight determinations.  

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2010)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

*Golem, Vault Guardian*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 8 (50 hit points)
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10/1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities, immune to fire and cold, partially immune to electricity, reduced damage by weapon type
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 8,000

Vault guardians are simple but expensive creations of Zhentarim wizards. They are sold to lords of Zhentil Keep and beyond to guard their most precious treasures. Vault guardians are constructs of stone and metal that require incredible wealth to create, but are constantly alert and very effective at their job.

Vault guardians can appear as any type of creature, from dogs to people (though generally they appear as statues or other humanlike creatures no taller than 6 feet), but they always have two appendages, such as hands or claws, with which to attack.

Combat: The attack of a vault guardian is straightforward and consists of two punching attacks that inflict 1d10 points of damage per strike. What makes the vault guardian a troublesome foe are the creature’s additional magical powers, which enable it to detect intruders and withstand magical attacks.

The vault guardian can perform the following at will: detect magic, detect invisibility, and true seeing. The attacks of the guardian can reach into the Astral and Ethereal Planes and can injure those struck only by magical, silver, or iron weapons. A vault guardian takes no damage from normal fire, magical fire, or cold-based attacks, and electrical attacks cause only one-quarter damage to the construct. Charm and sleep spells have no effect on the vault guardian, nor do other mind-affecting spells or any poisons.

Edged and piercing weapons inflict only one-quarter damage to the creature because of its durable construction. Blunt weapons such as maces and hammers do only half damage if the weapons are not enchanted to at least +1, but cause normal damage if so enchanted. The vault guardian is also extremely fast, and imposes a -3 penalty to all surprise rolls when defending its charges.

Because of its construction, the vault guardian is vulnerable to earth magic. A rock to mud spell inflicts 2d10 points of damage on the creature and stops it from moving for one round, and earthquake or stone shape instantly kills the construct (no saving throw allowed).

Habitat/Society: Vault guardians are found in treasure vaults. They are similar to stone or iron golems, and could be considered a combination of the two types. Vault guardians are slightly cheaper to construct than stone or iron golems, but take nearly a year to fabricate and require additional enchantments to empower.

Vault guardians were first created by wizards in the nation of Sembia to protect the vast riches of Sembian trading consortiums. Years later, Zhentarim wizards learned the process for creating them, and offered to create vault guardians for various lords of Zhentil Keep at greatly inflated prices.

To create a vault guardian, a wizard of at least 18th level must first be able to cast the following spells (from memory or by scroll use) over the course of the creature’s creation: statue, detect magic, detect invisibility, haste, wall of iron, fabricate, true seeing, permanency, and either wish or limited wish. In addition, a breastplate from a suit of plate mail of etherealness must be fused into the creature, giving it the ability to strike those opponents that hover between planes of existence. If a wizard does not have access to these spells, the cost of construction of a vault guardian could exceed that of a stone or iron golem.

Dozens of intricate symbols must be carved across the forehead and forelimbs of the vault guardian, and rubies worth at least 500 gold pieces each are needed for its eyes.

During its creation, a vault guardian is given a certain key word that is used to control it. After creating the guardian, the wizard passes on this key word to the guardian’s new owner so she or he may properly control the creature and instruct it to guard a certain place or thing. A guardian’s key word can never be changed.

By the time construction of a vault guardian is complete, the total cost could range between 40,000 and 70,000 gold pieces, plus any added costs for spells. In turn, the wizard can sell the construct for up to three times the cost of fabrication. Many unscrupulous wizards have recorded the key words of their creations, using this knowledge at a later date to their advantage. The guardian can understand up to 100 command phrases in addition to its key word, and the key word must be spoken first when commanding it to any action.

Ecology: Vault guardians are not normal creatures, but are constructed through powerful spells. A vault guardian has no need to eat or sleep.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Zhentil Keep (1995).


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

Interesting.  Maybe start by downsizing a stone or iron golem to Medium?


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

Hit Dice fall right in between dividing the other two golems by half.  Since Str is the only differing score between iron and stone, choose the middle score (31) and downsize from there, yielding Str 23, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1?

Splitting the difference on natural armor, then downsizing yields +18 natural armor (just like the stone golem).


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

That looks good, except these aren't mindless.  Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10?


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

Indeed!  That looks reasonable.



> The vault guardian is also extremely fast, and imposes a -3 penalty to all surprise rolls when defending its charges.




Perhaps a Dex boost as well?


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Perhaps a Dex boost as well?




Certainly. It's 18" move translates to a speed of 50 ft. or so, so it deserves a higher Dex. Maybe 15?

So far that's:

Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+20 (64 hit points)
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Vault Guardian: Str 23, Dex 15, Con —,  Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10, NA +18?

What else do we have. The weapon vulnerability would translate to DR X/bludgeoning and magic. How many points do you fancy?

   DR 10/bludgeoning and magic ?

   Ghost touch attacks to affect incorporeal & ethereal creatures.

Some spell-like abilities: at-will _detect magic, detect invisible_ and _true seeing._ The _detect invisible_ is redundant since it has true sight, so I would cut that out.

   SLAs - at-will _detect magic, true seeing_, CL X.

Immunity to fire and cold, some electricity resistance.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Shouldn't the NA be +8 to match the original AC?  I'd go with DR 5, since the rest of the stats suggest a CR around 5 or 6.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Rather than SLAs, let's just give it a continuous "super vision".   We can expand this...

True Seeing (Su): Glabrezu continuously use true seeing as the spell (caster level 14th).

...to this...

Detect Intruders (Su): Vault guardians continuously use detect magic and true seeing as the spells (caster level xth).



> The attacks of the guardian can reach into the Astral and Ethereal Planes and can injure those struck only by magical, silver, or iron weapons.




Besides the ghost touch, should we also treat their attacks as magic, silver, and cold iron for purposes of overcoming DR?



> A vault guardian takes no damage from normal fire, magical fire, or cold-based attacks, and electrical attacks cause only one-quarter damage to the construct. Charm and sleep spells have no effect on the vault guardian, nor do other mind-affecting spells or any poisons.
> 
> Because of its construction, the vault guardian is vulnerable to earth magic. A rock to mud spell inflicts 2d10 points of damage on the creature and stops it from moving for one round, and earthquake or stone shape instantly kills the construct (no saving throw allowed).




Should we go with the nontraditional (for a golem) immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity, and vulnerability to earth magic, or pigeonhole it into the more traditional immunity to magic?


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Detect Intruders seems good, and I'm agreed to the overcoming DR bit.

I think immunity to magic works better for those specific "earthy" spells.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Detect Intruders (Su): Vault guardians continuously use detect magic and true seeing as the spells (caster level xth).
> 
> Besides the ghost touch, should we also treat their attacks as magic, silver, and cold iron for purposes of overcoming DR?




I like both of the above.



Shade said:


> Should we go with the nontraditional (for a golem) immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity, and vulnerability to earth magic, or pigeonhole it into the more traditional immunity to magic?




I'd like to give them the nontraditional ones, just to give them something different from regular golems.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't the NA be +8 to match the original AC?  I'd go with DR 5, since the rest of the stats suggest a CR around 5 or 6.




I'd be OK dropping the NA but bringing it down to +8 seems too low to me. The original monster does have a better AC than an AD&D Iron Golem, after all, and we do need to consider the stat-inflation of 3E.

I'd be OK with a NA of +12 to +16 to bring it more in line with the CR.

EDIT: We could also reduce the DR from 15/adamantine to 10/adamantine to go along with its lower HD and CR.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd be OK with a NA of +12 to +16 to bring it more in line with the CR.
> 
> EDIT: We could also reduce the DR from 15/adamantine to 10/adamantine to go along with its lower HD and CR.




That seems a reasonable compromise.  How about +14 for the NA?


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

+14 NA and DR 10 is good.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Now for the hard part...



> Because of its construction, the vault guardian is vulnerable to earth magic. A rock to mud spell inflicts 2d10 points of damage on the creature and stops it from moving for one round, and earthquake or stone shape instantly kills the construct (no saving throw allowed).




OK, for starters, stone shape shouldn't kill it, especially when the lower-level transmute spell only damages it.   Earthquake can't target the creature, so that should probably be replaced.

How about we borrow from the stone golem, and maybe add some effect for stone shape?  Something like...

Vulnerability to Earth Magic (Ex):   Certain spells and effects function differently against a vault guardian, as noted below.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a vault guardian (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

A stone shape spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but (halves its natural armor for 1 full round?).


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Now for the hard part...
> 
> OK, for starters, stone shape shouldn't kill it, especially when the lower-level transmute spell only damages it.   Earthquake can't target the creature, so that should probably be replaced.
> 
> ...




Well the general impression I get is that these golems are more vulnerable to Earth spells than a standard Stone Golem, so rather than simply copying that golem's spell vulnerabilities how about adding a bit to the effects?

A _stone shape_ spell checks the golem for 1 round *and does 1d10 damage* (no save)?

A _transmute rock to mud_ spell slows the golem for 2d6 rounds *and  does 2d10 damage* (no save)?

A _transmute mud to rock_ spell heals all of its lost hit points?

A _stone to flesh_ spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but  negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for *1d4* rounds (no save).

An _earthquake_ spell does 100 hit points of damage to all vault guardians within its area of effect (no save). [_i.e. the spell affects them like structures_]


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

You mean checks like in wind?  Why not slow for 1 rd?  Otherwise, I could go for Cleon's revisions.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

I like all of Cleon's revisions except earthquake, but I can probably live with it.
Oh, and yeah, I don't like the "checks" bit either.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

What would you rather do with earthquake?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Drop it.  But I can live with Cleon's suggestion, since it works with the original intent of the spell.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> You mean checks like in wind?  Why not slow for 1 rd?  Otherwise, I could go for Cleon's revisions.




'Cause it's different, that's why. You know me, anything to get some attention...

Actually, I was trying to find a condition that matches the "stops it from moving" mentioned the original description gave _rock to mud_ and didn't want to use "helpless", which just left me with "checked".

I'd be OK switching stone shape from checked to slowed.

We could add the immobilisation into _rock to mud_ I suppose, something like "A _transmute rock to mud_ spell does 2d10 damage to the vault  guardian and immobilizes it for 1 round (rendering it helpless), the vault guardian is then  slowed for 2d6 round (no save)." but that seems a bit too much of a penalty to me. I think I'd rather leave it as is.

So, how about this revised list of spell-effects:

A _stone shape_ spell slows the vault guardian for 1 round (as per the _slow_ spell) and does 1d10 damage (no save).

A _transmute rock to mud_ spell slows the vault guardian for 2d6 rounds and does 2d10 damage (no save).

A _transmute mud to rock_ spell heals the vault guardian of all its lost hit points.

A _stone to flesh_ spell does not actually change the vault guardian's  structure but  negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1d4 rounds (no save).

An _earthquake_ spell does 100 hit points of damage to all vault  guardians within its area of effect (no save).


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

The suggested revisions should work.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Works for me, too.

Let's make Ghost Strike an Su ability.  That makes more sense to me.

Want to do anything with the command word business?  I'm thinking something along the lines of a shield guardian's medallion.


> During its creation, a vault guardian is given a certain key word that is used to control it. After creating the guardian, the wizard passes on this key word to the guardian’s new owner so she or he may properly control the creature and instruct it to guard a certain place or thing. A guardian’s key word can never be changed.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

Updated.

The shield guardian bit works for me.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2010)

Ok, most of what we need from the shield guardian will just go in the flavor text (I kind of wonder if we should include something about multiple people using the key word, supposing that PCs might read the owner's thoughts or something):

When it is fashioned, a vault guardian is keyed to a particular magical key word.  A creature that tells the vault guardian the key word becomes that vault guardian's master.  Typically, the creator of the vault guardian passes the key word to the golem's new owner after construction is completed.  A vault guardian obeys its master’s verbal commands to the best of its ability.  It can also be keyed to perform specific tasks at specific times or when certain conditions are met.


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, most of what we need from the shield guardian will just go in the flavor text (I kind of wonder if we should include something about multiple people using the key word, supposing that PCs might read the owner's thoughts or something):
> 
> When it is fashioned, a vault guardian is keyed to a particular magical key word.  A creature that tells the vault guardian the key word becomes that vault guardian's master.  Typically, the creator of the vault guardian passes the key word to the golem's new owner after construction is completed.  A vault guardian obeys its master’s verbal commands to the best of its ability.  It can also be keyed to perform specific tasks at specific times or when certain conditions are met.




Including that is fine by me.

We don't really need it, since 3E Constructs seldom state how they're operated, but I like to see the details.

What else do we have to decide on. All I can see is flavour text and the following:

Challenge Rating: x - _They look around CR5 to me_.

Advancement x - _Methinks 9-12 HD (Medium); 13-24 HD (Large)_.

The detect intruders SQ lacks a caster level.
CL 8th like the HD?
CL 9th, the minimum caster level for _true seeing_?


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2010)

CR 6?  They're almost as good as flesh golems, with a much higher AC and the ability to bypass many defenses (not just DR, but invisibility, displacement, and the like).

I think I prefer CL 9th.   Half the time, those "always active" abilities just have an arbitrary CL not tied to any factor of the creature.

We need to determine the amount of electricity resistance.  10?  15?

A vault guardian stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Vault guardians speak x.  (They have Int 6, so could speak)


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 6?  They're almost as good as flesh golems, with a much higher AC and the ability to bypass many defenses (not just DR, but invisibility, displacement, and the like).
> 
> I think I prefer CL 9th.   Half the time, those "always active" abilities just have an arbitrary CL not tied to any factor of the creature.




Challenge Rating 6 seems fair, and I'd be happy with CL 9th.



Shade said:


> We need to determine the amount of electricity resistance.  10?  15?




10 points would suit me.



Shade said:


> A vault guardian stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




Let's see, they're a mix of steel and metal. A 5.5 foot Iron Golem would weigh ~480 pounds, a 5.5 foot Stone Golem ~456 pounds.

Not much difference there. Either 450 or 480 pounds then.



Shade said:


> Vault guardians speak x.  (They have Int 6, so could speak)




There's no mention of them being able to speak in their AD&D description, it just says they can comprehend 100 command phrases. That suggests "vault guardians can not speak, but understand one language known to their creator" will do, although "A vault guardian can speak one language known to its creator" could work.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

"Cannot speak, but understands" works for me.

Updated.

Construction time...



> Vault guardians are slightly cheaper to construct than stone or iron golems, but take nearly a year to fabricate and require additional enchantments to empower.
> 
> Vault guardians were first created by wizards in the nation of Sembia to protect the vast riches of Sembian trading consortiums. Years later, Zhentarim wizards learned the process for creating them, and offered to create vault guardians for various lords of Zhentil Keep at greatly inflated prices.
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> "Cannot speak, but understands" works for me.
> 
> Updated.




I was suggesting 450 *or* 480 pounds, not 450-480 pounds as a range. If we want a weight range to cover a 5-6 ft. golem I'd go for something like 400-600 pounds.



Shade said:


> Construction time...




Those costs and prereqs seem rather high for a middle-of-the-range golem. They shouldn't be more expensive than a Flesh Golem.

Maybe CL 7th and 20,000 gp price?

Since they're make out of stone and metal I'm thinking Craft (armorsmithing) or Craft (sculpting) for them.

The listed prereqs of _statue, detect magic, detect invisibility, haste, wall of iron,  fabricate, true seeing, permanency, wish_ or _limited wish _and a _breastplate of etherealness_ is an awful lot. I think we can cut those prereqs down to _true seeing_ and _limited wish, _plus _spiritual weapon_ for the "hit incorporeal creatures" bit. 

I wouldn't use _etherealness _as it's a 9th level spell.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with Cleon on pricing and spell prereqs.  They shouldn't be that expensive or difficult (I think the original flavor went a bit overboard).  Though, actually, I'm not fond of limited wish at CL 7.  How about lesser geas?  We've already got true seeing as the "beyond caster level" spell.  Let's go with sculpting for the Craft, as that can include artistic use of metals.


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2010)

Thus...

A vault guardian's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, weighing at least 1,000 pounds, which is then outfitted in a masterwork breastplate.  Two rubies costing at least 250 gp apiece must be added as its "eyes". Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 13 Craft (sculpting) check.

CL 7th; Craft Construct, lesser geas, spiritual weapon, true seeing, caster must be at least 7th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

I'd limit to just Craft (sculpting), but I don't mind about armorsmithing much.  Since this is supposed to be a wizardly creation, I don't think spiritual weapon should be a prereq now that I look at it more.  Ghost touch weapons require plane shift, which seems perhaps a bit high level.  Would greater magic weapon work again?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Good point, and greater magic weapon works for me.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Is this one all set after a last update?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

I believe so.  Here's that update.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> I agree with Cleon on pricing and spell prereqs.   They shouldn't be that expensive or difficult (I think the original  flavor went a bit overboard).  Though, actually, I'm not fond of limited  wish at CL 7.  How about lesser geas?  We've already got true seeing as  the "beyond caster level" spell.  Let's go with sculpting for the  Craft, as that can include artistic use of metals.






freyar said:


> I'd limit to just Craft (sculpting), but I don't mind about armorsmithing much.  Since this is supposed to be a wizardly creation, I don't think spiritual weapon should be a prereq now that I look at it more.  Ghost touch weapons require plane shift, which seems perhaps a bit high level.  Would greater magic weapon work again?




I suggested _spiritual weapon_ because it's the lowest level spell I could find in the SRD that hit incorporeal creatures (since it's a force effect) but I don't mind dropping it. 

That said, I'd still like to give it some spell that more strongly support its ability to strike incorporeal creatures such as the Ghost Touch prereq of _plane shift_.

How about _lesser geas, true seeing, plane shift_?

That's two over CL spells, but there are official examples of Constructs which have two over-levelled spells, like the Flesh Golem.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Fair enough.

Updated.  I believe our work is done here.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Updated.  I believe our work is done here.




Yes, the stats look good.

These creations are ready to be sent to their duties.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Errgh.  I extremely dislike even having 1 over-CL spell in the prereqs.  It lacks some sense.  And now we have a 6th level spell and a 7th level spell!  No one says we can't fix designer's mistakes.

Magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures as well, so I'd vastly prefer either switching to greater magic weapon or upping the CL to at least 11th to cover true seeing (of course, then we're afoul of precedent on CL vs construct CR).


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Let's fall back on greater magic weapon.  It makes good sense.

Moving on...

*Statue that Walks*
Frequency: Rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 2
Move: 12"
Hit Dice: 100 Hit Points
% In Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 5-30
Special Attacks: Nil
Special Defenses: See Below
Magic Resistance: See Below
Intelligence: Non-
Alignment: Neutral
Size: L (18' tall)
Psionic Ability: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Statues That Walk are actually oversized stone golems. However, they do not have the ability to cast a slow spell. Their strength is comparable to that of a fire giant.

The Statues were built as caretakers by a race long-since gone in the Realms when members of that race knew they were dying out from a series of plagues they could not fight. The race was proud of its monuments and buildings, and built the Statues to maintain the glory of these structures and tear down anything that would detract from them.

The Statues performed their duties for centuries until the magic-users and priests of the lizard-men who supplanted the builders found a method of stopping them (a very long and drawn-out ritual taking days and needing special glyphs to be drawn on everyone of the Statues. The Divine Precept will discover this ritual in a few months). The lizard-men could not harm the Statues, but they could take apart the buildings they guarded and did so, using them for their own structures which were later taken down and reused by the humans who supplanted the lizard-men.

The Statue will march into the town and, when it runs into a building, tear it down, then go on to the next one. The town is on the site of one of the monuments built thousands of years ago by the creators of the Statue. At this point, the remains of the monument are about 200 feet under the current ground surface, but the Statue knows where it should be by the number of paces he took to get to it, and he will keep tearing the town apart until he finds the monument or is certain that he cannot find the monument, at which time he becomes rigid again and waits for orders.

If the ritual for stopping is not performed on each of the Statues, they will each stop when they get to the site of one of the monuments or buildings they are supposed to take care of and find that it is not there. They are awaiting the order to go on to the next job on their rounds. They stop because the lizard-men's spell permanently destroyed the Statues' ability to move on from one job to the next. They have to be started by the ritual the Precept of Gheldaneth performed to go on to the next assignment.

There are no known vestiges of the original culture remaining except the Statues. However, you can assume that one or two (being used for entirely different purposes, of course) are still around if you want to surprise the player characters by having a Statue approach an ancient wizard's tower and start polishing it.

Originally appeared in FR6 - Dreams of the Red Wizards (1988).


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Umm, start with a stone golem and tweak a bit?  I guess we can change Str to that of a fire giant, if it makes sense (though it doesn't unless we advance the fire giant to Huge also).  The main feature seems to be the programming, really.


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

That sounds like a plan.

Using the "divide by 4.5" rule of thumb, we'd end up with 22 HD, which would place it perfectly at the beginning of the Huge range of stone golem advancement.  

So...

Huge, 22 HD

Str 31, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1?   That isn't the normal boost of a stone giant to Huge, but it gives them Str equivalent to a fire giant, and doesn't punish Dex for increasing a size category.   I thought that would help differentiate them from greater stone golems.

Since the like ripping apart buildings, I'm thinking we might borrow this again:

Double Damage against Objects (Ex): A treant or animated tree that makes a full attack against an object or structure deals double damage.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Errgh.  I extremely dislike even having 1 over-CL spell in the prereqs.  It lacks some sense.  And now we have a 6th level spell and a 7th level spell!  No one says we can't fix designer's mistakes.
> 
> Magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures as well, so I'd vastly prefer either switching to greater magic weapon or upping the CL to at least 11th to cover true seeing (of course, then we're afoul of precedent on CL vs construct CR).




Well if it bothers you I don't mind dropping it, 'tis not a deal-breaker.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

Are they really worth a conversion?

These just look like Huge 22HD Stone Golems to me with a bit of flavour text about their programming.

I don't think they need Double Damage vs Objects either. Doesn't their DR/adamantine allow their blows to strike as adamantine weapons, thus penetrating the DR any building they come across is likely to have? That should be enough for them to do their job.

I suppose we could give them Knowledge (architecture and engineering) so they know what to do to "maintain the glory of these structures and tear down anything that would  detract from them".


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I don't think they need Double Damage vs Objects either. Doesn't their DR/adamantine allow their blows to strike as adamantine weapons, thus penetrating the DR any building they come across is likely to have? That should be enough for them to do their job.




I do not believe that is the case.  I thought DR only allowed the creature to penetrate similar DR.  In fact, I can find nothing in the SRD to even indicate that having damage reduction of a certain type allows one to overcome similar DR.

The only thing I can find is that a creature with an alignment-based subtype overcomes DR bypassed by that alignment.

If anyone can find evidence for magic and special material DRs allowing a similar bypass of DR, please point it out.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

I've never heard that a creature with DR overcomes the same type of DR.  I could see the argument that these don't need conversion, but I think we can come up with enough new to make them at least marginally interesting.


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I've never heard that a creature with DR overcomes the same type of DR.  I could see the argument that these don't need conversion, but I think we can come up with enough new to make them at least marginally interesting.




Yeah, I think we can make it work.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

With that in mind, I'll go for double damage vs objects, just to differentiate them a little.


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> The Statues performed their duties for centuries until the magic-users and priests of the lizard-men who supplanted the builders found a method of stopping them (a very long and drawn-out ritual taking days and needing special glyphs to be drawn on everyone of the Statues.




Maybe glyphs of warding or symbols spells affect them in their immunity to magic entry?



> The Statue will march into the town and, when it runs into a building, tear it down, then go on to the next one. The town is on the site of one of the monuments built thousands of years ago by the creators of the Statue. At this point, the remains of the monument are about 200 feet under the current ground surface, but the Statue knows where it should be by the number of paces he took to get to it, and he will keep tearing the town apart until he finds the monument or is certain that he cannot find the monument, at which time he becomes rigid again and waits for orders.




We could give it some sort of "keyed to structure" ability, wherein it always can find its warded structure (perhaps by a find the path or similar effect?).


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2010)

I like both of those ideas.  Maybe some kind of persistent programming or keying to an owner or something.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Maybe glyphs of warding or symbols spells affect them in their immunity to magic entry?
> 
> We could give it some sort of "keyed to structure" ability, wherein it always can find its warded structure (perhaps by a find the path or similar effect?).




Hmm, those have possibilities. What about runes and sigil spells - although I guess they'd be immune to _sepia snake sigil_, since I doubt a mindless creature could read one!


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> With that in mind, I'll go for double damage vs objects, just to differentiate them a little.




Well I suppose you're right about the DR/adamantine, but even without it a Huge Stone Golem does so much damage (Two 2d10+13 slams) it could bring down an ordinary stone or wooden building pretty quickly without double damage.

Still, if you want it I see no reason not to throw it in. It fits its "Building Expertise" shtick.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, those have possibilities. What about runes and sigil spells - although I guess they'd be immune to _sepia snake sigil_, since I doubt a mindless creature could read one!



Runes, sigils, that should all work.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

So what effect shall these spells have?   Render them inert/inanimate for 1 round/hour/day per caster level?

Along those same lines, would an erase spell reverse the negative effects?


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> So what effect shall these spells have?   Render them inert/inanimate for 1 round/hour/day per caster level?
> 
> Along those same lines, would an erase spell reverse the negative effects?




Come to think of it, a _sepia snake sigil_ is not affected by spell resistance, so the standard golem's immunity to magic would not affect it anyway. That said, I'd have something like:

A statue that walks is affected normally by any _symbol_, _glyph of warding_ or _sepia snake sigil_ spell. Furthermore, any of these spells can be inscribed upon the golem as if it were an surface. If the statue that walks succeeds at a Will save (DC equals spell) the inscribed spell dissipates harmlessly, if it fails the save the golem is rendered immobile and helpless until the symbol, glyph or sigil is discharged.


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Cleon's suggestion sounds really good here, though I'm not sure how you'd be able to write a spell on an active golem.  After all, the symbols take 10 minutes to cast!  Maybe after casting, make a touch attack or something?


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

That is a good question!

What if the symbol could be inscribed upon another object (a weapon, etc.) and then once it strikes the golem it transfers the image and renders it helpless on the failed save?


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Basically like a touch attack.  Sure!  Revising...

A statue that walks is affected normally by any symbol, glyph of warding or sepia snake sigil spell. Furthermore, any of these spells can be transfered the golem as if it were an surface; the caster inscribes the symbol, glyph, or sigil on another object and then must succeed on a touch attack against the golem with that object within 1 minute/hour???. If the statue that walks succeeds at a Will save (DC equals spell DC) the inscribed spell dissipates harmlessly, but if it fails the save the golem is rendered immobile and helpless until the symbol, glyph, or sigil is discharged.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Basically like a touch attack.  Sure!  Revising...
> 
> A statue that walks is affected normally by any symbol, glyph of warding or sepia snake sigil spell. Furthermore, any of these spells can be transfered the golem as if it were an surface; the caster inscribes the symbol, glyph, or sigil on another object and then must succeed on a touch attack against the golem with that object within 1 minute/hour???. If the statue that walks succeeds at a Will save (DC equals spell DC) the inscribed spell dissipates harmlessly, but if it fails the save the golem is rendered immobile and helpless until the symbol, glyph, or sigil is discharged.




No, I don't like the idea of transferring the spell at all. Not only is it making an unnecessary special case it's setting a very bad precedent. What's to stop the players demanding to transfer symbols for a lot of other applications?

Most of these spells are standard actions, in which case they just need to make a touch attack. For long casting time spells like symbols I'd say they have to stay in contact for the entire casting time. Since grappling one of these things while casting high-level spells is probably a _little_ difficult, it's basically a question of waiting until the golem is inactive and either hope it doesn't have pre-programmed instructions to squash people it sees casting spells on it OR sneak up and trace the symbol on the sly.

 Besides, the original description says the method of stopping them was  "a very  long and drawn-out ritual taking days  and needing special glyphs to be drawn on everyone of the Statues",  which shows its possible to perform long casting-time spells on them.


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## Shade (May 5, 2010)

I can live with that.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can live with that.





Right-ho, then we just need to express it in game mechanics!

Revising...

A statue that walks is affected normally by any _symbol_, _glyph  of warding_ or _sepia snake sigil_ spell. Furthermore, any of  these spells can be inscribed upon the golem as if it were an surface. If the golem is moving or resisting the inscription the spellcaster must succeed at a touch attack on each round of the spell's casting time (minimum 1 touch attack) to trace the spell out on the golem, the spell fails if an inscription touch attack misses. If the inscription succeeds, the statue that walks then attempts a Will save (DC equals spell); on a successful save 	the  inscribed spell dissipates harmlessly, if the golem fails its save it is  rendered immobile and helpless until the symbol, glyph or sigil is  discharged.


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## freyar (May 10, 2010)

This is ok with me, but I thought the whole long drawn-out ritual bit was for some ritual that wasn't actually in the statue's presence.  Still, this is good enough.

Can we insert a "but" between "harmlessly," and "if the golem ..." in order to avoid the run-on?


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Updated.

Any other special abilities, or move on to the remaining basics and construction?


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Any other special abilities, or move on to the remaining basics and construction?




Something to help it repair and maintain buildings, since that's it main function?

How about:

*Repair Structure (Su):* A statue that walks can magically maintain or rebuild a building or other structure, molding stone or wood as if they were putty (treat as the _stone shape_ or _wood shape_ spells). It can smooth damaged sections back to their original condition, or form raw materials into new parts for a structure that is partially destroyed. For every hour the statue spends repairing a structure it can repair X hit points of damage.


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

That looks good.  100 hit points?   Or is that too low?


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## Cleon (May 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks good.  100 hit points?   Or is that too low?




No that's plenty. The statue is tireless remember, so it can repair a structure 24/7. It can just stick to the job until it's done.

A three-foot thick stone wall has 540 hit points (I don't think the rules say how wide the wall is, but I'm guessing that's for a single 5-foot section). Thus a half-destroyed wall would need ~270hp to repair and take the statue 2.7 hours to fix.

Over a day a statue can repair 2400 hit points of building, or 8.88 sections of 3-foot thick stonework - which should be enough to completely fix a half-destroyed 15-foot square solid stone shrine with a shattered door and ceiling. [nine 5-ft squares, seven of which are occupied with walls (7*270hp), one square with a stone door (60hp), plus a stone-slab roof over the central square (60hp) - total 2010hp to repair]

Looking at it like that it seems quite a lot, however it's only the equivalent of Fast Healing 1/6, so it isn't anything that is effective during combat-time.

Although that makes me think we should add a note that it only works on inanimate structures, and that the Statue can never repair Constructs or petrified creatures? 

Actually, come to think of it I like the notion that they can repair other Statues That Work or similar stone golems. It would help explain why they're still around - one of the statues duties is to keep each other running.

Revising...

*Repair Structure (Su):* A statue that walks can magically  maintain or rebuild a building or other structure, molding stone or wood  as if they were putty (treat as the _stone shape_ or _wood shape_  spells). It can smooth damaged sections back to their original  condition, or form raw materials into new parts for a structure that is  partially destroyed. For every hour the statue spends repairing a  structure it can repair X hit points of damage. A statue that walks can use repair structure to heal the damage of another wooden or stone golem, including other statues that that walks. It can not heal any other kind of golem or living creatures that have been petrified, nor can it fix a wood or stone golem that has been destroyed.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

I like it!  Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x  {The original text says solitary, but also implies that groups could be working within the same city) 

Challenge Rating: 13?

Advancement: 23–42 (Huge)?

Should we allow for Construction, or assume the secrets are lost to the ages?


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like it!  Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or x  {The original text says solitary, but also implies that groups could be working within the same city)




Stone Golems are also solitary in AD&D, but work in gangs of 2-4 in 3rd edition. Let's use that.

*Organization:* Solitary or gang (2-4)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 13?




Sounds fair.

They're basically SRD CR11 Stone Golems advanced to Huge 22 HD monsters, which would add 3 Challenge Ratings according to the Advancement rules - +2 for the extra 8 HD, +1 for the size boost.

That would make them CR14 except they don't have a standard Stone Golem's slow special attack, which is worth knocking them down a point.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 23–42 (Huge)?




That'd suit me.



Shade said:


> Should we allow for Construction, or assume the secrets are lost to the ages?




I'd give them a construction. A minor variation on the SRD Stone Golem would do. Just adjust for size, cut out _slow_ and add _stone shape_ and _wood shape_.

We could add a "*In the Forgotten Realms*" subentry with a note that in Faerun the secrets of their construction have been lost, so anyone wanting to make one will first need to rediscover said secrets with some kind of difficult Knowledge check.

*Construction*
A statue that walk's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 33,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, _antimagic field_, _geas/quest_, _stone shape_, _symbol of stunning_, _wood shape_, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 90,000 gp; Cost 50,000 gp + 3,400 XP.


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

You guys are on a roll! Looks great to me.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> You guys are on a roll! Looks great to me.




Okay, so all that's left is a description and the text for its "In the Forgotten Realms".

Something like.

In the Forgotten Realms
Statues that walk are found in the Prefecture of Gheldaneth. The ancient race that created them was wiped out by plague centuries ago, but left the statues to maintain the glory of these structures and tear down anything that  would detract from them. Most have been immobilized by _glyphs of warding_ placed on them by the lizard folk who occupied their lands.

The secret of creating statues that walk has been long forgotten. Anyone wishing to create one must first succeed at a DC X Knowledge (_*arcane?*_) or a DC X Gather Information check to discover the necessary information.


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

Know (arcana) seems like the right skill.  Set the DC pretty high, I guess.  Maybe 30 or even 35?


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

That all works well.  Updated.   Finished?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Know (arcana) seems like the right skill.  Set the DC pretty high, I guess.  Maybe 30 or even 35?




Basically, I was wanting two skills to choose from and Gather Information was the best fit I could think of after Arcane Knowledge, since it could cover searching out forgotten bits of statue lore.

DC 35 was what I was thinking of, or set the DC lower (30?) and require a successful check against two skills.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

I like the either/or skill choice, both with a DC of 35.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like the either/or skill choice, both with a DC of 35.




Fine by me.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

So...are we finished?


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...are we finished?




It could do with a few minor revisions, in my humble opinion.

Extinctions is mispelled "exctinction" in the second paragraph of the background info.

The first sentence of the next paragraph - "Since many of the ancient structures have long since sunk beneath the  earth" reads a bit strangely.

I don't think we need separate this paragraph with the previous one, why not join them together and cut out the redundant "tear down anything" bit, replacing it with some flavour about them doing massive urban destruction and earth-moving to reveal a hidden monument.

i.e.

The statues that walk were originally built as caretakers by a long-dead  race.  Knowing that they faced extinction from a series of plagues,  the ancient race built the statues to maintain the glory of their  monuments and buildings and tear down anything that would detract from  them. Many of the ancient structures have long since sunk beneath the  earth, but the statues know where they should be. They would move entire hills or rip apart towns to unearth a buried monument.  If the  original structure cannot be recovered, the statue becomes rigid and  awaits new orders.


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Humbly revised.  

Now finished?


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Humbly revised.
> 
> Now finished?




They look fine to me.

EDIT: Hold on, we should we increase the cost a bit from the standard Stone Golem's 90,000 gp. 

A Greater Stone Golem is 196,000 but is a lot tougher (CR16).

How about 125,000 gp, since they're not quite as nasty as similarly CR13 Iron Golem.

Price 125,000 gp; Cost 65,000 gp + 4,800 XP.


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Agreed.  Revised.


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## freyar (May 19, 2010)

I actually meant that arcana was the right skill of the Knowledges.  Gather Information seems just about right, as long as you're somewhere with some kind of sage.  Or maybe Bardic Knowledge would be better, actually.  Care to make that switch?

Otherwise, it's just about done.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

I'd like to keep Gather Information, since it is so underutilized, but I could see adding bardic knowledge with perhaps an easier chance of success.  What say you?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd like to keep Gather Information, since it is so underutilized, but I could see adding bardic knowledge with perhaps an easier chance of success.  What say you?




I say I'm OK with it. I'd set the DC to 30 since the information appears "Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who  once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the  significance of the knowledge."

How 'bout:

The secret of creating statues that walk has been long forgotten. Anyone  wishing to create one must first discover the necessary  information by succeeding at a DC 35 Knowledge (arcana) check, a DC 35 Gather Information check or a DC 30 Bardic Knowledge check.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Perfect!  Updated.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Perfect!  Updated.




Great! I think that means we've finally chiselled them into their final shape.


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## freyar (May 20, 2010)

It looks pretty good, but I'm still slightly concerned about Gather Information.  The skill description says



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Check: An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends, and a DC 10 Gather Information check get you a general idea of a city’s major news items, assuming there are no obvious reasons why the information would be withheld. The higher your check result, the better the information.




That just doesn't seem to include instructions for building ancient types of constructs, though it might tell you who to ask.  Still this isn't a big deal since you both like it.


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> It looks pretty good, but I'm still slightly concerned about Gather Information.  The skill description says
> 
> That just doesn't seem to include instructions for building ancient types of constructs, though it might tell you who to ask.  Still this isn't a big deal since you both like it.




Yes, but I think we can argue it is covered by the second paragraph, although it may be stretching the "something else along those lines" bit:If you want to find out about a specific rumor, or a specific item, or  obtain a map, or do something else along those lines, the DC for the  check is 15 to 25, or even higher. ​The check's to find rumours and stories about how statues that walk were made and try to derive the secret from them. I imagine they'd go talking to ancient lizardfolk shaman about The Old Stone Stories or something.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

That's good enough for me (_Cookie, cookie, cookie starts with C_).

*Octopus, Blue Ring*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Underdark waters
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY/CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to Exceptional (8-14)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 2, Swim 12
HIT DICE: 3-5
THAC0:
3-4 HD: 17
5 HD: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS 7
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2 (x6)/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, constriction
SPEClAL DEFENSES: Ink, camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: L (4’-6’ long, 4’-10’ tentacles)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE:
3 HD: 650
4 HD: 975
5 HD: 1,400
Shaman 1-4: 4,000
Shaman 5-7: 5,000

These very intelligent, shy creatures live in the cracks and crevices of Underdark’s oceans, constantly struggling to escape the notice of the more powerful aquatic races. Their bodies are covered with hundreds of blue circles, giving them their name; they have large golden eyes, a greenish-brown beak, and can change their skin color from dark grayish-brown to a dirty white.

Combat: Though they almost always strive to avoid combat, when forced to stand and fight they are remarkably skilled fighters. Initially, most blue-rings depend on evasive tactics. Blue-ringed octopi, just like other octopi, have chromatophores embedded in their skin that allow them to change color at will, giving them perfect camouflage against the sea floor. These chromatophores even alter the way the octopus reflects light that allows creatures to see via infravision or ultravision.

When spotted, blue-rings wait for an opponent to approach to within 10’ or so, then release their poisonous, milky-white ink. This ink fills a 20’ radius sphere, and allows the blue-ring to jet away at high speed, seeking protective cover again. The poison affects only creatures breathing the water through gills or through a magical means, such as a water breathing spell. These creatures must make a saving throw vs. poison or suffer 4-24 hp damage and be blinded for 1-6 turns. 

In melee, blue-rings hold nothing back, attacking with six tentacles and a bite. The tentacles are almost pure muscle, and are able to constrict their prey. Each hit has a chance to secure a single limb of humanoid prey (roll 1d8): 1=right leg, 2=left leg, 3=right arm, 4=left arm, 5=head (blinded), and 6-8=torso or other non-binding hold. A victim may choose to attempt to break a tentacle’s hold; this takes the place of all other actions for the round and requires a successful Open Doors roll.

Worse than constriction, however, the tentacles suffuse their victims with the same poison as their ink; each round that a victim is held it must make a saving throw with a -2 penalty or suffer 4-24 hp damage. A victim held by multiple tentacles must make multiple saving throws but suffers only one set of poison damage/round.

Habitat/Society: When captured by aboleth or kuo-toa, they are well-treated and bred for use as a servitor race; many blue-rings are kept in captivity their entire lives. However, keeping blueringed octopi always; other octopi always somehow learn of this captivity and seek to free their comrades. This has led to some wild speculation that the blue-rings are telepathic or mages of some kind, though no evidence has ever confirmed this.

Ecology: The blue-ring octopi are a nomadic race that strives to avoid conflict. They live everywhere from the shallows to the deepest trenches; they have found underwater connections to the oceans of the surface world and have sometimes been found living in the colder waters of the surface world, where they are allies of the tool-using tako and the locathah.

Red Shamans
A few octopi from every spawning have rings of ox-blood red; these young are protected and cared for far more than any other blue-ring young, growing much larger than other blue rings (8 HD). They are sheltered and jealously guarded because they grow up to be shamans, capable of reaching 8th level of ability as priests. In addition, the poison of shaman blue-rings is more potent than that of their fellows, inflicting half damage even with a successful saving throw. However, the chromatophores of shamans are always either weak or non-existent; they cannot camouflage themselves, so they often spend their entire lives deep within narrow cleft of rock, where other members of their tribe bring them food and seek their help and advice.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #227 (1996).


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

So, Medium or Large?  Their HD puts 'em between a standard and giant octopus.

Octopus:  Small, 2 HD, Str 12, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Giant Octopus: Large, 8 HD, Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3

Assuming we go Large, we can probably just borrow the giant octopus' physical stats.  If Medium, something in between.

Proposed scores:

Medium: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13
Large: Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

I'm beginning to suspect that there are as many octopus critters as spider critters. 

Make them Large, so they can use imp grab against most PCs.   The proposed scores suffice, I think.  Maybe boost the Con if we want the poison to be a little nastier.  

And I'll go with the high end 5HD, though I'm not averse to 3HD and advancement.

Definitely an underbar (if not separate stats) for the red shaman.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> So, Medium or Large?  Their HD puts 'em between a standard and giant octopus.
> 
> Octopus:  Small, 2 HD, Str 12, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
> Giant Octopus: Large, 8 HD, Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
> ...




I prefer Medium, since their dimensions are about half a regular Giant Octopus. Maybe have them become Large at 5HD?

I would give them a lower Strength at Medium - preferably 12, so they get a standard Giant Octopodes Str 20 when they advance to Large. Indeed,  I wouldn't mind just giving them a standard Octopus's abilities. it'd be easier.

e.g. something like:

Medium Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13)
Advancement: 4 HD (Medium), 5-9 HD (Large)
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3

Also, could we call this a "Giant Blue-Ringed Octopus", since a real Blue-Ringed Octopus is only 9-12 inches across?


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Because constriction sounds like such an important part of their attack, I'm starting to think that they should really be Large.  But I do see the point about their reach.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Because constriction sounds like such an important part of their attack, I'm starting to think that they should really be Large.  But I do see the point about their reach.




I'm definitely liking Medium for them. They can still constrict creatures up to Large without tweaking the standard Constrict rules. They'd probably need a racial bonus to grapple checks, like the +4 the SRD squid has.

I'm thinking we can use most of the conversion of the *Deep-Dwelling Octopus* we did.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

Except that


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.



So a Medium blue-ringed octopus could only grapple Small PCs (and smaller).

Agreed on the deep-dwellers being very handy.


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

So I suppose we'll have to "otherwise note" it.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

So you like Medium too?


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Yep, with the "same size grab" notation.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We'll need to work on the poison.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Looks like Con damage plus blinding.  First off, let's modify the cloud, though:

Ink Cloud (Ex): A giant blue ring octopus can emit a cloud of milky-white ink in a 20 foot spread once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the giant blue ring octopus normally uses to escape a losing fight. All vision within the cloud is obscured.  In addition, creatures within the sphere are exposed to the giant blue ring octopus's poison if they breathe water (either naturally or through magical means such as the water breathing spell).


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Looks good!


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Just noticed that something is really off on the HD/hp in homebrews (probably copy/paste).  It should be 3d10+3 (19 hp).

Ok: poison should be injury or inhalation, maybe 1d2 Con plus 1d4 rounds blindness primary, 1d2 Con secondary?  I could see going to 1d3/1d2 or at most 1d3/1d3 on the Con damage.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

1d2 works.  I could see going as low as 1, since it gets numerous attempts to envenom its victims in a given round.


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## freyar (May 27, 2010)

Let's see what Cleon thinks.  I suspect we'll go with 1d2 Con plus blindness/1d2 Con.


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## Cleon (May 27, 2010)

SRD said:
			
		

> Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.




Ah, but I was talking about Constrict, not Improved Grab. It can use regular grapple checks to seize hold of large creatures and then squeeze them, or we can just upsize its Improved Grab as Shade said (which would be my preferred solution).



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.




EDIT: Besides, the SRD Octopus's Improved Grab has "To use this ability, an octopus must hit an opponent of any size with its arms attack."


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## Cleon (May 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's see what Cleon thinks.  I suspect we'll go with 1d2 Con plus blindness/1d2 Con.




Giving it 1d2 Con plus blindness/1d2 Con for both Inhaled and Injected is fine by me.

I'm finding it a little funny that the real-world blue-ring octopus has a highly venomous bite, but the D&D version has poison with all its attacks _except_ its bite!


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## freyar (May 27, 2010)

Ok, then:

Poison (Ex): inhaled or injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d2 Con plus 1d4 rounds blindness, secondary damage 1d2 Con.  The save DC is Constitution-based


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## Shade (May 27, 2010)

Do we need to specificy "tentacle" parenthetically after injury, or shall we take inspiration from the real-world variation and expand the venom to the bite as well?


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## freyar (May 28, 2010)

I don't mind adding poison to the bite or not.  But I thought we just list poison under damage for whichever natural attack we want (ie, XdX+X plus poison).


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do we need to specificy "tentacle" parenthetically after injury, or shall we take inspiration from the real-world variation and expand the venom to the bite as well?




I'd rather have an explanatory sentence followed by the poison mechanics, something like this:

*Poison (Ex):* A blue-ringed octopus's poison affects any opponent it hits with a tentacle or its ink cloud.

_Blue-Ring Octopus Venom - inhaled or injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d2 Con plus 1d4  rounds blindness, secondary damage 1d2 Con.  The save DC is  Constitution-based_.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

That works for me.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me.
> 
> Updated.




It's got 3d10+48 (114 hp) in its HD instead of 3d10+3 (19 hp), which makes little sense unless you've boosted its Constitution to 42 behind my back?

Skills and Feats next?

SRD Octopodes have Escape Artist (+10 racial), Hide (+4 racial), Listen, Spot and Swim (+8 racial).

Max out Hide, Listen and Spot?

Since these are peaceful creatures that "Strive to avoid conflict" I'm thinking they won't have combat-oriented feats (although if they did I'd be tempted by Weapon Finesse).

Maybe Alertness to notice danger and Skill Focus (Hide) to avoid it? The SRD Giant Octopus has both those feats.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Hide, Move Silently at 6 each, Listen, Spot at 3 each for skills?

Edit: missed Cleon's post.  I could go either way with the skills (ie, keep Move Silently or not).  Suggested feats (or swapping SF (Hide) for Stealthy) are good.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd like to have Move Silently, but let's put the higher ranks in Listen and Spot and the lower ranks in Hide and Move Silently, since the racial bonuses and Dex modifier make the latter better.

Updated.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Looks fine.  CR 3 because of the poison, or is the DC too easy?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

With the sheer number of chances of failure, I'd say it's not too easy.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd like to have Move Silently, but let's put the higher ranks in Listen and Spot and the lower ranks in Hide and Move Silently, since the racial bonuses and Dex modifier make the latter better.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Look OK?




Well I guess since the original doesn't have an improved surprise chance it doesn't fit that well maxing out its stealth skills.

Still, the Stealthy feat and some points in Hide and Move Silently suits me. I'd rather the Move Silently was at least as good as its sense skills. Maybe move a rank from Listen to MS?

That'd give it ranks of Hide 6, Move Silently 5, Listen 3 & Spot 3, making the modifiers:

Skills: Escape Artist +13, Hide +12, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot  +9, Swim +9

Also, real-world blue-ringed octopuses (like most octopodes) are great climbers, and are known to climb out of the water to move over dry parts of the reef they live in.

So, give them a Climb speed (20 feet or so?) or a racial bonus to Climb?


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> With the sheer number of chances of failure, I'd say it's not too easy.




I agree. The (probably over CR'd) Giant Octopus is Challenge Rating 8, and it isn't even poisonous!

We don't seem to have decided on a Constrict damage yet.

Downscaling a Giant Octopus would give Constrict 1d10+1, but its tentacles would also be 1d3 - one step higher than the Blue ringed Octopus's arms.

So, 1d6+1 Constrict?

I'm not that fond of them advancing to 24HD Huge monsters, it doesn't really gel with their description of inoffensive creatures that are often enslaved by evil monsters. Well, unless there are a lot of incidents when Big Tentacle Brother comes to their rescue enslaved Blue-Ringed Octopodes...

Also, as for the alignment, I'm leaning toward "Usually neutral good" rather than "always".


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Maybe move a rank from Listen to MS?




Sure!



Cleon said:


> So, give them a Climb speed (20 feet or so?) or a racial bonus to Climb?




Let's go with the climb speed of 20 feet.



Cleon said:


> So, 1d6+1 Constrict?




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> I'm not that fond of them advancing to 24HD Huge monsters, it doesn't really gel with their description of inoffensive creatures that are often enslaved by evil monsters. Well, unless there are a lot of incidents when Big Tentacle Brother comes to their rescue enslaved Blue-Ringed Octopodes...




You know, I'm thinking "by character class" may work better for them, rather than having them grow larger.   Especially when we consider the red variant.



Cleon said:


> Also, as for the alignment, I'm leaning toward "Usually neutral good" rather than "always".




Good idea.  One could always go "rogue" and found the "black ring octopi" gang.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with the climb speed of 20 feet.




I'd prefer the Climb speed too.



Shade said:


> You know, I'm thinking "by character class" may work better for them, rather than having them grow larger.   Especially when we consider the red variant.




Suits me.



Shade said:


> Good idea.  One could always go "rogue" and found the "black ring octopi" gang.




Whole oceans fear the secretive Master of The Black Circle...


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

All sounds good, and I'm all for character class advancement on these.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.



> This has led to some wild speculation that the blue-rings are telepathic or mages of some kind, though no evidence has ever confirmed this.




Shall we have them understand Undercommon, and communicate telepathically?


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Shall we have them understand Undercommon, and communicate telepathically?




Didn't we just have this argument with the Shadow Panther?

I wouldn't give them telepathy, maybe the have some limited means to communicate by scent with others of their kind?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

This one's a bit different, as 1) they are smarter, 2) the text implies it, and 3) many underdark denizens communicate telepathically.

What does it hurt to let 'em have it?


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Well, I'd rather go with telepathy, nothing, or light flavor only.  There doesn't seem to be much support for scent-based communication.  Otherwise, I'm ready for the red shamans.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Let's work on 'em.



> Red Shamans
> A few octopi from every spawning have rings of ox-blood red; these young are protected and cared for far more than any other blue-ring young, growing much larger than other blue rings (8 HD). They are sheltered and jealously guarded because they grow up to be shamans, capable of reaching 8th level of ability as priests. In addition, the poison of shaman blue-rings is more potent than that of their fellows, inflicting half damage even with a successful saving throw. However, the chromatophores of shamans are always either weak or non-existent; they cannot camouflage themselves, so they often spend their entire lives deep within narrow cleft of rock, where other members of their tribe bring them food and seek their help and advice.




So, boost it to 8 HD.  Keep 'em Medium, or go Large?


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

For fun, I say make them Large (but don't advance physical abilities as much as usual, since they don't sound tremendously stronger), though I might reconsider.  I also vote to give them innate spellcasting.  For the poison, possibly increase the damage (to go with increased DC due to HD, etc).


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

Innately cast as 8th-level clerics?   Suggested domains?  Liberation?  Water?  Travel?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

8th level clerics sounds right.  Liberation domain ought to be fun, and Water sounds right too.  Travel might be a good third choice, but I think I prefer Community ever so slightly.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> 8th level clerics sounds right.  Liberation domain ought to be fun, and Water sounds right too.  Travel might be a good third choice, but I think I prefer Community ever so slightly.




I'd rather give them Weather than Water - they have little use for _water breathing_ (unless they have guests from the surface), Weather has more spells that aren't on the Cleric list, and _ice storm_, _cone of cold_, _acid fog_ and _horrid wilting_ just seem less appropriate than _call lightning storm_, _control winds_, _control weather_ and _whirlwind_.

A red shaman casts spells as an 8th level cleric with the Community, Liberation and Weather Domains?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Good point about Weather over Water.  I'll take those three, though I guess I'd drop Community if we need to stick to 2.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Good point about Weather over Water.  I'll take those three, though I guess I'd drop Community if we need to stick to 2.




I'd rather keep all three as well.

How about giving them abilities based on the granted powers of those Domains? (*Community:* _calm emotions_ 1/day and +2 competency bonus on Diplomacy; *Weather:* Survival as a class skill; *Liberation:* +2 morale bonus on all saves vs enchantment)

I guess we should talk about their stats to.

Blue-Ringed Octopus: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13

As "Shaman" they ought to have a good Wisdom score, so I'd give them at least a +2 Wisdom. Naw, make it +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma since they're so respected.

I'm thinking we should give them a half-boost to their physical stats for being Large (+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con) and give them +2 natural armour so their AC is the same as a regular blue-ring.

That gives us something like:

*Octopus, Giant, Red Shaman*
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 8d10+16 (60 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+15
Attack: Tentacle +10 melee (1d3+3 plus poison)
Full Attack: 6 tentacles +10 melee (1d3+3 plus poison) and bite +5 melee  (1d6+1 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (20 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+4, improved grab, poison, spells
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., ink cloud, jet, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +5
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 15
Skills: 33 - Climb +, Escape Artist +, Hide +, Listen +, Move Silently  +, Spot +, Swim +
Feats: 3 - Alertness, Stealthy and 1 more?
Environment: Underground aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 8?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Looks like a pretty good framework to me.  That's basically what I was thinking.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks like a pretty good framework to me.  That's basically what I was thinking.




Good-o!

So, what skills and feats do you fancy?

I'm thinking we should give them the same skill point selection as a regular Blue-Ring and then use the excess for its "Shaman skills", such as Heal, Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (religion)?

However the description indicates they spend almost all their time in hiding and have all their needs met by the Blue-Rings, which suggests they won't need Move Silently (or Stealthy) to stalk prey. We can also cut Alertness for the same reason (their higher Wisdom means they'll get the same Listen and Spot modifier as a standard Blue-Ring).

That way, we can use all three feats for "Shaman feats" that involve community-skills or spell use.

How about Eschew Materials, Negotiator and Scribe Scroll?


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Good on all that except Scribe Scroll.  They are aquatic, after all!   How about Craft Wand instead?


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2010)

Sounds good.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Updated.

Since the regular blue ring only gets Climb, Escape Artist, and Swim from racial bonuses, we'll just need to divvy up the 33 ranks between the following: Hide, Listen, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Spot

Spells: Red shamans can cast divine spells as 8th-level clerics. A red shaman has access to two of the following domains: Community, Liberation, or Weather. The save DCs are Wisdom-based. 

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 12 + spell level): 
0—x; 
1st—x; 
2nd—x; 
3rd—x; 
4th—x; 
*Domain spell. Domains: x and x.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

5 ranks each in Hide, Listen, Spot, and 6 ranks each in Heal, Know (nature), Know (religion).

0 - cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance, light, resistance, virtue
...


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good on all that except Scribe Scroll.  They are aquatic, after all!   How about Craft Wand instead?




There's nothing in the Scribe Scroll feat that prevents it being used underwater, they could be scratching runes on cowie shells or something.

Besides, they've probably got waterproof ink.

That said, I don't mind Craft Wand.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Spells: Red shamans can cast divine spells as 8th-level clerics. A red shaman has access to two of the following domains: Community, Liberation, or Weather. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.




I though we were giving them Community, Liberation AND Weather.

There's plenty of sorcerer-equivalent casters that get to all cleric spells and three domains to their vocabulary, so I don't see why we can't hand the Red Shaman a bonus Domain.

As for the spells, what Domain spells do you fancy?

level - community/liberation/weather
1st - bless/remove fear/obscuring mist
2nd - status/remove paralysis/fog cloud
3rd - prayer/remove curse/call lightning
4th - greater status/freedom of movement/sleet storm

Hmm, I like _remove fear_, _fog cloud_, _call lightning _and _freedom of movement_ (assuming we give them the bonus Domain).


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Those are fine, though I wonder if call lightning works underwater. 

I'll look at the rest of the spell list tomorrow.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I though we were giving them Community, Liberation AND Weather.
> 
> There's plenty of sorcerer-equivalent casters that get to all cleric spells and three domains to their vocabulary, so I don't see why we can't hand the Red Shaman a bonus Domain.




I'd agree, if they were sorcerer-equivalents.  But clerics always get two domains (unless they take a feat or prestige class that grants more).


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Give them Liberation and Weather for the sample, but list all three as options.  Works for me.

Then remove fear, fog cloud, call lightning and freedom of movement still work as domain spells.

I'm not much in the mood for spell lists right now, maybe tonight.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

That sounds like a good approach.

Here's a stab at the spell list...

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 12 + spell level): 
0—detect magic, guidance, light, read magic, resistance, virtue; 
1st—bless water, divine favor, entropic shield, obscuring mist, remove fear*, sanctuary; 
2nd—aid, fog cloud*, owl's wisdom, resist energy, silence; 
3rd—call lightning*, dispel magic, prayer, wind wall; 
4th—control water, divine power, freedom of movement*; 
*Domain spell. Domains: Liberation and Weather.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2010)

Looks good, thanks!  Didn't feel like wading through that. Just one of those weeks...


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

Updated.

Here are the skills with racial bonuses only:

Climb +11, Escape Artist +12, Hide +x, Listen +x, Heal, Knowledge (nature) +x, Knowledge (religion) +x, Spot +x, Swim +11

We have 33 ranks to split between the rest (max 11 ranks per skill).


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Here are the skills with racial bonuses only:
> 
> ...




I'd put most of the SPs in Heal and the two Knowledges, say 7 in each, then 4 in each of Hide, Listen and Spot?

I make that:

Skills: Climb +11, Escape Artist +12, Hide +3, Listen +7, Heal +10, Knowledge  (nature) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Spot +7, Swim +11


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds like a good approach.
> 
> Here's a stab at the spell list...
> 
> ...




That selection suits me.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Cleon's skills seem fine to me.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Agreed.  Updated.

Do we want to do anything else to make the poison deadlier, beyond the increased DC due to greater Con and HD?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I could see upping the Con damage to 1d3 or maybe even 1d4 in both primary and secondary.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

I can go along with that.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Let's go with 1d3. 

Updated.   Challenge Rating: 8?  Anything else?


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with 1d3.
> 
> Updated.   Challenge Rating: 8?  Anything else?




I was going to go for 1d4 for the poison, since it's supposedly more potent than a regular blue-ring.

I'm thinking they might be a CR9.

A regular giant octopus is CR8. These fellows don't have the raw damage capacity of a giant octopus but their poison probably makes up for that, plus their spell casting makes them much more versatile and allows them to boost themselves with spells before a fight.

Just a _divine power_ makes their tentacles at least as good as a regular giant octopus in both attack and damage - +13 melee (1d3+6 plus poison) & constrict 1D8+9 versus the giant octopus's +10 melee (1d4+5) & constrict 2d8+6. Throw in a _divine favour_ and _prayer_ and they're definitely nastier!


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

1d4 and CR 9 works for me.

Updated.

Finished (finally)!


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> 1d4 and CR 9 works for me.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished (finally)!




Yup, they're looking good.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

*Hendar*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desolate areas (temperate)
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Omnivorous, but prefer meat
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: All possible, but no silver
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (evil)
NO. APPEARING: 1 (1-3)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6, Sw 18, Fl 15(C)
HIT DICE: 6+6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/1-3, or special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drowning dive
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (14’-22’ wingspan)
MORALE: Fearless (18)
XP VALUE: 975

The heavily-bodied, fearsome, black hendar resembles a vast worm with bat wings and a horse-like head. It is a solitary hunter and is always encountered alone except during mating season. Hendar live in ruins, sea-caves, swamps, or atop moorland crags, preferring desolate places to well-populated areas, although they occasionally venture into populated areas to find food, especially when the hunting is bad in their territory. When they attack for food, they prefer humanoids to quadrupeds such as cattle and horses.

The creatures are black, with blue and purple iridescence when wet, and have fiery red eyes. When angered, hendar snort vapor from their nostrils and emit deep, rumbling roars. The manes of older individuals turn gray and then white with age. Hendar are thought to have a life span of hundreds of years. 

Combat: Hendar can swim almost as fast as they can fly, by powerful beats of their tail and leathery wings. Although they prefer to hunt in shallow waters, they can survive at great depths. Their favorite attack is to crash into aerial targets, buffeting with their wings and/or tails for 2-8 points of damage, and biting for 1-3 points of damage. If an opponent irritates them, they grasp with their tail and jaws, and dive from the air, deep into the water to drown their foe. Conversely, if the foe is aquatic, the hendar bursts up from the air and flies toward land so that its foe expires from being out of water or suffers injury when dropped. An ungainly crawler on land, the hendar is a powerful but stodgy flier, bad-tempered and vain, often found gazing at its own reflection in still water. 
Hendar possess 120-foot infravision for use in night hunting.
Because of their great size, hendar fear almost nothing, and only stop an attack on foes when clearly outnumbered. Hendar never capitulate or cease an attack on a single enemy of size M or smaller. While they are of average intelligence, they cannot admit to themselves that any single creature smaller than themselves poses a threat.

Habitat/Society: Hendar have no society to speak of, since they usually cannot tolerate the presence of other hendar, except during mating periods. Even during this period, they are snappy and skittish near one another, and even go out of their way to attack other creatures.

They prefer to live in damp areas, for this keeps their skin strong and supple. If transplanted to another, drier area, their skin weakens, and they become Armor Class 6, and receive 1-4 points of additional damage per day because of the weakness of their skin. As well, extreme cold cracks their skin, causing similar results. Thus, they are only found in the middle reaches of the Sword Coast, usually never farther south than Amn or farther north than Luskan, and on the northern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Ecology: Hendar seldom mate, usually every thirty years or so. The parents cohabit for a year or so until the young achieve full strength and flight ability. Each mating typically produces 5-8 eggs, but only 2-4 usually hatch. Young hendar strike out on their own when they acquire their full powers at 3+3 Hit Dice size. The wing buffet attack of such a youngling causes only 2-6 points of damage. Although the hendar have no natural enemy, the young do not often survive for long because of lack of food. This accounts for the rarity of hendar in the Realms.

Hendar sleep during the winter months, for the cold slows them to half speed and could potentially make them easy prey for any target they chose to attack. When they wake in the spring, they are extremely ravenous, and often feed twice in a night. This behavior lasts for roughly a month, after which period they once again resume their ordinary once a week hunting schedule. Hendar and perytons generally tolerate each other, but the hendar attempts to slay or drive out any other large predators, aerial or aquatic, living within a mile of their lairs.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (1991).


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

6HD Large magical beast?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

I believe so.

Aquatic/amphibious or hold breath/water breathing?

Water-dependent?

They seem somewhat comparable to wyvern in size and shape, although these are a bit smarter.

Wyvern scores:  Str 19, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9

Take those, and boost Int and Cha by 4?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

They don't seem to live in the water always, so let's go with water breathing.  I think the "water dependence" in their description is mostly flavor.

I'll agree to those scores with boosted Int and Cha.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> TREASURE: All possible, but no silver




I'm tempted to give 'em DR/silver based on that passage.  Thoughts?



> If an opponent irritates them, they grasp with their tail and jaws, and dive from the air, deep into the water to drown their foe. Conversely, if the foe is aquatic, the hendar bursts up from the air and flies toward land so that its foe expires from being out of water or suffers injury when dropped.




Improved grab and/or Snatch feat (possibly a bonus feat)?



> Hendar possess 120-foot infravision for use in night hunting.




Darkvision 120 ft. and/or superior low-light vision?



> Because of their great size, hendar fear almost nothing, and only stop an attack on foes when clearly outnumbered. Hendar never capitulate or cease an attack on a single enemy of size M or smaller. While they are of average intelligence, they cannot admit to themselves that any single creature smaller than themselves poses a threat.




Immunity to fear or a racial bonus on saves vs. fear?



> They prefer to live in damp areas, for this keeps their skin strong and supple. If transplanted to another, drier area, their skin weakens, and they become Armor Class 6, and receive 1-4 points of additional damage per day because of the weakness of their skin. As well, extreme cold cracks their skin, causing similar results.




I'm thinking this is worthy of some sort of special quality.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

DR 5/silver seems reasonable.  There's no reason given why they wouldn't have it, so they should be vulnerable to it in some way.

Snatch as a bonus feat would work.

Darkvision.

Racial bonus.

Hmmm.  Maybe treat them as water based creatures for effects that hurt water based creatures?


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> They don't seem to live in the water always, so let's go with water breathing.  I think the "water dependence" in their description is mostly flavor.




The description suggests they can breathe both air and water, and I'm not that bothered how we go about it. Water Breathing would seem to fit since they don't necessarily limit themselves to the water.



freyar said:


> I'll agree to those scores with boosted Int and Cha.




Works for me!


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> DR 5/silver seems reasonable.  There's no reason given why they wouldn't have it, so they should be vulnerable to it in some way.




I'm against DR/silver since there's no mention of resistance to non-silver weapons in the description. For all we know it could be a cultural thing. They are intelligent creatures, after all. At worst I'd consider having them repulsed by silver, like garlic to a vampire.



freyar said:


> Snatch as a bonus feat would work.




I'd rather just give it Improved Grab.



freyar said:


> Hmmm.  Maybe treat them as water based creatures for effects that hurt water based creatures?




That could work! Do we want to add an AC penalty for dehydration/chilblains like the original describes?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2010)

Then let's add in some kind of repulsion by silver instead of DR.  Kind of like an allergy. 

Improved Grab is fine, though there's some implied throwing in the original text.  Either way is ok.

I'd rather either do the AC penalty or the water-based creature vulnerability but not both.  The AC penalty is something I'd leave for flavor just to state that they won't leave their home environments.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Updated.



freyar said:


> Then let's add in some kind of repulsion by silver instead of DR.  Kind of like an allergy.




That'll work.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Improved Grab is fine, though there's some implied throwing in the original text.  Either way is ok.




Improved grab is fine.  We'll need to note in the tactics that they use the grab to drown opponents.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd rather either do the AC penalty or the water-based creature vulnerability but not both.  The AC penalty is something I'd leave for flavor just to state that they won't leave their home environments.




Agreed to one but not both.  I prefer the water-creature bit, just because it is a bit more unique, but the chillblain precedent is perfectly acceptable.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Then let's add in some kind of repulsion by silver instead of DR.  Kind of like an allergy.
> 
> Improved Grab is fine, though there's some implied throwing in the original text.  Either way is ok.
> 
> I'd rather either do the AC penalty or the water-based creature vulnerability but not both.  The AC penalty is something I'd leave for flavor just to state that they won't leave their home environments.




OK, so what are we doing regarding the silver? Is the aversion to silver "psychological" or a physical effect? I'm thinking of one of the following:

*Sickened by Silver (Ex):* Hendar are strongly allergic to silver. For every round a Hendar is in contact with silver it must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or be sickened until the contact with silver is broken. Should a Hendar eat anything made out of silver it will automatically spit it out, and must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be sickened [*nauseated?*] for 1d4 rounds.

*Repulsed by Silver** (Ex):* Hendar loathe silver and cannot tolerate its presence. A hendar must make a DC15 Will save to enter an area laced with silver, and can not rest or sleep within X feet of silver. A hendar has a -Y morale penalty on melee attacks against a creature wearing or wielding a silver object.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

We cross-posted, but apparently didn't conflict.  

I prefer option #2.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> We cross-posted, but apparently didn't conflict.
> 
> I prefer option #2.




That's good, because so do I.

We need values for X and Y then.

I reckon the attack penalty ought to be similar to Shaken.

Can't think of any precedent for the range, so I'll just pull a figure out of my ear. 10 yards feels about right.

So, 30 feet for X and -2 for Y?

*Repulsed by Silver** (Ex):* Hendar loathe silver and  cannot tolerate its presence. A hendar must make a DC15 Will save to  enter an area laced with silver, and can not rest or sleep within 30 feet  of silver. A hendar has a -2 morale penalty on melee attacks against a  creature wearing or wielding a silver object.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Hey, me too!

Any real preference on the water bit?


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hey, me too!
> 
> Any real preference on the water bit?




I'm not really bothered, but am OK putting it in for the sake of completeness. Not sure what to call it though.

*Some Name (Ex):* If a hendar spends more than 24 hours without entering water its skin grows dry and brittle, reducing its natural armour by X. A hendar with dried-out skin must must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of damage. The hendar can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water for a minute, which restores its AC to normal.

I changed the damage to per hour from the original per day, since the SRD rules on Thirst and the Sahuagin's Water Dependent power work on a per-hour basis.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Updated.

How about "moisture dependent" and reducing NA by 2 (which is half its bonus, rounded down)?

Skills: 18 ranks
Listen 9, Spot 9?  Or throw a few ranks in Hide/Move Silently?  The original text didn't specifically identify them as ambush hunters.



> Their favorite attack is to crash into aerial target...




Feats: 3
Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack?


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> How about "moisture dependent" and reducing NA by 2 (which is half its bonus, rounded down)?




I like Moisture Dependent.



Shade said:


> Skills: 18 ranks
> Listen 9, Spot 9?  Or throw a few ranks in Hide/Move Silently?  The original text didn't specifically identify them as ambush hunters.




They seem to prefer a chase-and-grab approach over ambushes, yes. That said, their black colouration may give them some camouflage when night hunting.

How about 7 ranks each in Spot and Listen, 4 ranks in Move Silently and put "*A Hendar's black skin gives them a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in dark or shadowy conditions" in their Skills description?



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack?




I prefer Improved Overrun over Bull Rush.

Furthermore, I'm still divided about the tail-slap and 2 wing buffets, since the original description is more like a slam and a bite. (Of course if we give them slam/bite we can't give them Multiattack as a regular feat.)

Hmm, I'd be more comfortable with Multiattack and wing-buffets if the damage was cut - maybe 1d4+2 per wing?

Oh, and their tail (or slam) attack could have an increased reach, probably 10 feet, since they're supposed to be big creatures.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I like Moisture Dependent.




Then I'll make it so.  




Cleon said:


> They seem to prefer a chase-and-grab approach over ambushes, yes. That said, their black colouration may give them some camouflage when night hunting.
> 
> How about 7 ranks each in Spot and Listen, 4 ranks in Move Silently and put "*A Hendar's black skin gives them a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in dark or shadowy conditions" in their Skills description?




Sounds good!



Cleon said:


> I prefer Improved Overrun over Bull Rush.




I don't really get an overrun feel for these fellows.  Can overrun even be used while flying?   Let's compromise, and pick a third feat instead of those two.  



Cleon said:


> Furthermore, I'm still divided about the tail-slap and 2 wing buffets, since the original description is more like a slam and a bite. (Of course if we give them slam/bite we can't give them Multiattack as a regular feat.)
> 
> Hmm, I'd be more comfortable with Multiattack and wing-buffets if the damage was cut - maybe 1d4+2 per wing?




I'd be comfortable with your comfort.  



Cleon said:


> Oh, and their tail (or slam) attack could have an increased reach, probably 10 feet, since they're supposed to be big creatures.




Works for me!

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2010)

Nearly fearless needs a number.  +2 bonus?

Flyby Attack or Weapon Focus (tail slap) would be my choice, with Cleave in third place.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

+2 bonus and Flyby Attack appeal.


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> +2 bonus and Flyby Attack appeal.




Flyby Attack suits me fine but a +2 bonus seems too low for something that's "Nearly Fearless".

I'd suggest either increasing it to +4 or making it a SA that reduces any fear condition by one stage - e.g. panicked to frightened, frightened to shaken, shaken to suave. p)

Nearly Fearless (Ex):  A hendar has a +2 racial bonus on saving throws  made against fear effects. Even if it fails its save, the fear effect is treated as being one stage weaker than normal (e.g. a _fear_ spell will cause a Hendar to be shaken if it fails its Will save and has no effect if it makes its save, instead of the spell's normal effect of frightened on a failure and shaken on a success).


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Love it!   Updated.



> Hendar sleep during the winter months, for the cold slows them to half speed and could potentially make them easy prey for any target they chose to attack.




Do anything with that?  Cold attacks slow 'em, like some golems perhaps?

Environment: Any temperate land or aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or flight (2-3)?

Challenge Rating: 4?



> TREASURE: All possible, but no silver




Treasure: Standard (no silver coins, goods, or items)?

Alignment: Always neutral, often evil?

Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)?

A hendar is x feet long with a wingspan of 14 to 22 feet and weighs x pounds. Hendar have a lifespan of several centuries.

Hendar speak x (or do not speak)?


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do anything with that?  Cold attacks slow 'em, like some golems perhaps?




I read that as saying they go torpid during the winter, so I wouldn't make cold attacks slow them anymore than I'd make cold attacks put a bear into hibernation.



Shade said:


> Environment: Any temperate land or aquatic?




I'm thinking Temperate aquatic, swamps, plains or ruins



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or flight (2-3)?
> 
> Challenge Rating: 4?
> 
> ...




All that looks good.



Shade said:


> A hendar is x feet long with a wingspan of 14 to 22 feet and weighs x pounds. Hendar have a lifespan of several centuries.




It's hard to tell, but the picture gives me the impression their wormlike bodies are longer than their wingspan. Maybe 18-25 feet? That would fit the 80' length of the Gargantuan Purple Worm.

Weight-wise I'm thinking 800 to 1500 pounds or roughly the mass of a Horse.

Most hendar are 18 to 25 feet from snout to tail and weighs 800 to 1500 pounds, with a wingspan of 14 to 22 feet.  Hendar have a lifespan of several centuries.



Shade said:


> Hendar speak x (or do not speak)?




I'd go for "Hendar cannot speak, but they understand Common."


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Looks fine - and another one bites the dust!


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

*Silver Dog*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Water/moonlight
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 10
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 20
THAC0: NA (see below)
NO. OF ATTACKS: NA (see below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: NA (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 90%
SIZE: M (5’ long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 1,000 or -1,000

The few travelers who have glimpsed these beautiful canines say that silver dogs seem more creatures of dream than truth. They appear to be large dogs with long, flowing hair the color of mercury or molten silver. Witnesses describe them as having a thin and elegant frame, manelike mantle, regal face, and piercing eyes.

Silver dogs have only appeared at night, when they shimmer darkly like the finest steel in starlight. Demihuman observers have said that silver dogs radiate no heat, and thus can only be seen with normal vision.

Combat: Silver dogs never attack; they always flee from combat. They are shy and elusive creatures who avoid any creatures they smell, see, or hear. Sadly for these retiring beasts, though, intelligent creatures who glimpse them often pursue them. 

Because of the shadowy, metallic bodies of silver dogs, characters must make a Wisdom check to even glimpse a silver dog in the night-time forest. Those unlucky enough to see the creature, though, are overcome by the grace and beauty of the creature unless they make a successful save vs. spells. If the save fails, the character is so struck by the creature’s elegance that he feels he must capture it. The character must pursue the silver dog for 1d10 + 4 rounds, seeking not to injure it, but to catch it alive and unharmed. All the while, the dog flees at its full rate, heading ever deeper into the forest. At the end of the character’s monomaniacal desire to capture the dog, he may or may not continue the pursuit. Unfortunately, many such chases end with the character separated from his party and lost in deep woodlands.

In addition to silver dogs’ 90% magic resistance, only certain enchantment and charm spells can affect them. The priest spells command, remove fear, charm person or mammal, hold person, quest, and confusion affect a silver dog normally. The wizard spells friends, hypnotism, sleep, suggestion, charm monster, confusion, emotion, domination, hold monster, binding, and demand also affect a silver dog normally. Other spells have no effect upon this odd beast.

If a silver dog is ever captured, whether by nets or spells, one of two things occurs. If the capturing character is any alignment but pure neutral, or if the character is of neutral alignment and means to harm the silver dog, the dog disintegrates, as per the wizard spell, and the character suffers a 1,000 XP loss. If the silver dog is captured by a character of neutral alignment who means the dog no harm, the character receives a wish and 1,000 XP. As soon as the wish is fulfilled, the silver dog disappears as per teleport without error. If ever a silver dog is cornered and slain, the slaying character suffers a loss of 1,000 XP.

Habitat/Society: According to some sources, silver dogs dwell in dens located in deepest woodlands. No silver dog pups have ever been discovered, nor any bones or droppings found about these dens. As far as is known, silver dogs are utterly solitary.

Ecology: Unlike other canines, silver dogs have only been witnessed drinking water and “consuming“ moonlight. The beasts perform the latter process by standing upon lonely cliffs with head raised as if to howl at the moon. No sound is ever produced, however. Some speculate that the diet of the silver dog consists entirely of water and moonlight. Though this theory seems quite unlikely, it does explain why silver dogs emerge from their deep woodland homes and sometimes encounter adventurers.

Though unbiased observers hesitate to ascribe to silver dogs any contribution to forest ecology, druids consider silver dogs to be guardian spirits of the forest. According to druid lore, silver dogs are key to the balance of predator and prey in the woodlands. When silver dogs are plentiful, meaning one spotted by a druid every year, the forest thrives. When silver dogs are few, meaning one spotted by a druid every decade, the forest is threatened and begins to dwindle. Druids thus often pursue the dogs, wanting to be granted a wish. Typically, successful druids wish that a silver dog be sighted by a druid of this forest in every season of this decade.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (1991).


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm inclined to go with fey for this one, especially with the druid bit at the end.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

Interesting take on that.  I can't get past magical beast myself, though.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Well, that's my second choice. 

20HD Medium magical beast with lots of SR, then?  Some type of enchanting aura/gaze attack, immunity to magic, and energy drain on capture?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

That all sounds about right.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2010)

Let's figure out ability scores:

Moon Dog (M):  Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17
Shadow Mastiff (M): Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13
Blink Dog (M): Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Yeth Hound (M): Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 10

We know Int is 17-18, so how about...

Str 14, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 20?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2010)

Let's stick with that provisionally, but we may need to boost some of those to fit the high HD.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, that's my second choice.
> 
> 20HD Medium magical beast with lots of SR, then?  Some type of enchanting aura/gaze attack, immunity to magic, and energy drain on capture?




I prefer your original idea of making them Fey.

I'd also give them a higher Wisdom and Charisma than that. These creatures are like a canine version of a Unicorn and have 20 Hit Dice too boot!

An SRD unicorn has Wis 21 and Cha 24. If you advanced one by another 16 HD it would get 4 ability advances.

So I'm thinking something like Wis 23 and Cha 26 for the Silver Dog...


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

Except with the unicorn comparison, we must now note that unicorns are magical beasts! 

I do agree with the boost to Wis and Cha for the same reasons.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Grant me magical beast, and I'll grant your Wis 23 and Cha 26.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

You know, the unicorn comparison really convinces me it should be a magical beast.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Grant me magical beast, and I'll grant your Wis 23 and Cha 26.




It's a deal!


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

Evasion and uncanny dodge might not be specified in the original, but they seem like a good fit (plus these have 20HD!).

Want to make the compulsion to chase it come from an aura or a gaze?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Hmm...I could see arguments for either, but since it is visual, gaze might be best.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> Evasion and uncanny dodge might not be specified in the original, but they seem like a good fit (plus these have 20HD!).




Yes they'd be perfectly apt. I'd even argue for Improved Evasion.



freyar said:


> Want to make the compulsion to chase it come from an aura or a gaze?




The description suggests it's a passive effect that strikes anyone who sees the Silver Dog, which argues for aura.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes to improved evasion.  

Go with aura, but make it a visual-effect and maybe borrow some mechanics from gaze attacks?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

> Those unlucky enough to see the creature, though, are overcome by the grace and beauty of the creature unless they make a successful save vs. spells. If the save fails, the character is so struck by the creature’s elegance that he feels he must capture it. The character must pursue the silver dog for 1d10 + 4 rounds, seeking not to injure it, but to catch it alive and unharmed. All the while, the dog flees at its full rate, heading ever deeper into the forest. At the end of the character’s monomaniacal desire to capture the dog, he may or may not continue the pursuit. Unfortunately, many such chases end with the character separated from his party and lost in deep woodlands.




Maybe instead of a gaze, we should do something like a mummy's despair ability: anyone who merely looks at it.  Like this:

"Name for ability" (Su): At the mere sight of a silver dog, a character must make a DC X Will save or become obsessed with the creature's beauty and elegance.   An obsessed character is compelled to chase the silver dog (which flees at full speed) for 1d10+4? rounds, intending not to harm it but to capture it uninjured.  This is a mind-affecting compulsion.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

I left the duration the same, but I'm not averse to changing it.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

That looks great!

Suggested names:
Fleeting Beauty
Unobtainable Elegance


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe instead of a gaze, we should do something like a mummy's despair ability: anyone who merely looks at it.  Like this:
> 
> "Name for ability" (Su): At the mere sight of a silver dog, a character must make a DC X Will save or become obsessed with the creature's beauty and elegance.   An obsessed character is compelled to chase the silver dog (which flees at full speed) for 1d10+4? rounds, intending not to harm it but to capture it uninjured.  This is a mind-affecting compulsion.  The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> I left the duration the same, but I'm not averse to changing it.




That's the kind of thing I was thinking of.

The write up looks good, so all we need is the name.

Lure of Beauty?

Attract Pursuit?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Fleeting Beauty or Lure of Beauty both sound good to me.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Fleeting Beauty or Lure of Beauty both sound good to me.




Fleeting Beauty sounds like the Silver Dog doesn't stay good-looking for long.

Shall we go for Lure of Beauty?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

That works for me.  Updated.

Ready to work on the enervating bit?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

That seems like the next thing.  Make it work something like a death throes?


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> That seems like the next thing.  Make it work something like a death throes?




That'd make sense.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

Sounds good!  So, it imparts x negative levels on any creature of non-neutral alignment, and grants a wish to a neutral character that does not wish it harm?


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good!  So, it imparts x negative levels on any creature of non-neutral alignment, and grants a wish to a neutral character that does not wish it harm?




Am I right in thinking this negative level is never translated into actual level loss, so it never kills a non-neutral captor? In that case 1 negative level should be enough if its difficult to remove.

Something like a _holy sword_: "It bestows one negative level  on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including _restoration_ spells) while the weapon is wielded."

Hmm, better include some way of overcoming it. Maybe an _atonement_ allows the cursed to cancel the negative level by spending 1000 xp?


----------



## freyar (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, it's 20HD.  Would 1d6 negative levels be ok?


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

2d4 like energy drain, but with the caveat that a creature never gains enough negative levels to perish?


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds good to me.  



> If a silver dog is ever captured, whether by nets or spells, one of two things occurs. If the capturing character is any alignment but pure neutral, or if the character is of neutral alignment and means to harm the silver dog, the dog disintegrates, as per the wizard spell, and the character suffers a 1,000 XP loss. If the silver dog is captured by a character of neutral alignment who means the dog no harm, the character receives a wish and 1,000 XP. As soon as the wish is fulfilled, the silver dog disappears as per teleport without error. If ever a silver dog is cornered and slain, the slaying character suffers a loss of 1,000 XP.




So maybe:

Silver Dog's Boon or Bane (Su): Capturing a silver dog is a risky proposition.  A true neutral character that captures a silver dog and has no intent to harm, the silver dog will grant a wish (as the spell) and gains 2d4 positive levels that last for one week but never result in actual level gain.  If a non-neutral character or one who whishes to harm the silver dog captures the creature, the silver dog disintegrates, and the character instead takes 2d4 negative levels.  These never cause actual level loss, but they persist until the character receives a break enchantment (?) or similar spell.  This same bane applies to any character who kills a silver dog.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> So maybe:
> 
> Silver Dog's Boon or Bane (Su): Capturing a silver dog is a risky proposition.  A true neutral character that captures a silver dog and has no intent to harm, the silver dog will grant a wish (as the spell) and gains 2d4 positive levels that last for one week but never result in actual level gain.  If a non-neutral character or one who whishes to harm the silver dog captures the creature, the silver dog disintegrates, and the character instead takes 2d4 negative levels.  These never cause actual level loss, but they persist until the character receives a break enchantment (?) or similar spell.  This same bane applies to any character who kills a silver dog.




That looks sound, the only change I'd suggest is making the positive levels be less than the negative ones - maybe +2 levels or -2d4 levels? - and fixing the typo with the "whishes".


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

Keep in mind that positive levels are not core, so we'll have to throw in the whole explanation of how they work if they go that route.  I'd be content with skipping them and just granting a wish (like the original writeup) instead.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2010)

Oh, right.  Let's just drop the positive levels.  And fix the "whish."


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oh, right.  Let's just drop the positive levels.  And fix the "whish."




We could still give them the +1000 XP though, although I'd be OK just having a neutral captor gains XP as if it had defeated a foe of the Silver Hound's CR.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

The "silver dog is considered defeated" idea has merit.  

So...

Silver Dog's Boon or Bane (Su): Capturing a silver dog is a risky proposition. A true neutral character that captures a silver dog and has no intent to harm the silver dog will be granted a wish (as the spell) and gains gains experience points as if it had defeated the creature. If a non-neutral character or one who wishes to harm the silver dog captures the creature, the silver dog disintegrates, and the character instead takes 2d4 negative levels. These never cause actual level loss, but they persist until the character receives a break enchantment or similar spell. This same bane applies to any character who kills a silver dog.

One bit is bothering me, though...



> As soon as the wish is fulfilled, the silver dog disappears as per teleport without error.




Instead of "the silver dog disintegrates", how about it instead "is immediately teleported to its hidden lair"?  If we need a mechanic, it would probably be "as a refuge spell".


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> The "silver dog is considered defeated" idea has merit.
> 
> So...
> 
> ...




it only teleports away if it grants the wish, not when it disintegrates. I was thinking _word of recall_ would be a good reference.

Revising...

*Silver Dog's Boon or Bane (Su):* Capturing a silver dog is a risky  proposition. A true neutral character that captures a silver dog and has  no intent to harm the silver dog will be granted a _wish_ (as the spell)  and gains experience points as if it had defeated the creature. Once the wish is granted the dog teleports away to its home (as if it had cast the _refuge_ spell on itself). If  a non-neutral character or one who wishes to harm the silver dog  captures the creature, the silver dog disintegrates, and the character  instead takes 2d4 negative levels. These negative levels never cause actual level loss,  but they persist until the character receives a _break enchantment_ or  similar spell. This same bane applies to any character who kills a  silver dog.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

I think Shade meant that the silver dog shouldn't actually die when just captured.  I could go along with that, since I think the main point was just so that the captor doesn't get to keep a silver dog or its pelt.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Actually, I was just confused.  

But what you suggest makes good sense.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think Shade meant that the silver dog shouldn't actually die when just captured.  I could go along with that, since I think the main point was just so that the captor doesn't get to keep a silver dog or its pelt.




Oh right.

While a disintegration sticks to the original I don't mind if it teleports away instead.

Hmm...

How about it teleports away, but if its teleportation ability is blocked it disintegrates?

e.g.:

*Silver Dog's Boon or Bane (Su):* Capturing a silver dog is a  risky  proposition. A true neutral character that captures a silver dog  and has  no intent to harm the silver dog will be granted a _wish_  (as the spell)  and gains experience points as if it had defeated the  creature. Once the wish is granted the dog teleports away to its home  (as if it had cast the _refuge_ spell on itself).

If  a non-neutral  character, or one who wishes to harm the silver dog  captures the  creature, the character takes  2d4 negative levels and the silver dog teleports home. These negative levels never cause actual level  loss,  but they persist until the character receives a _break enchantment_ or  similar spell. This same bane applies to any character who kills a  silver dog. 	Should the silver dog be prevented from teleporting away from a non-neutral or harmful captor by a _dimensional anchor_ or the like, it immediately disintegrates.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

That works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me.




Skills and feats next?

Listen, Spot, Survival seem pretty obvious.

Hide and Move Silently to Evade pursuit.

Knowledge (Nature) for the remaining maxed-out skill?

*Skills:* Hide, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival

Combat Expertise seems a good pick, since it helps it avoid attacks. Improved Trip to go with it?

Come to think of it, how about giving it the Trip SA like a wolf.

Dodge and Mobility?

Run?

Track as a bonus feat?

*Feats:* Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Mobility, Run, Track (B)

That still leaves two more. Maybe something offensive/defensive?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

Endurance, probably, to go with Run.  Perhaps Imp Init to get ahead of pursuers.  

As for Imp Trip the feat vs the Trip SA, I think we need to stick with the feat, since they don't have any natural attacks.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Endurance, probably, to go with Run.  Perhaps Imp Init to get ahead of pursuers.
> 
> As for Imp Trip the feat vs the Trip SA, I think we need to stick with the feat, since they don't have any natural attacks.




Sounds fair to me, so we've got the following:

*Feats:* Dodge, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Mobility, Run, Track (B)

Do the proposed skills suit you?


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

Yes to the skills.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes to the skills.




Okay, giving its *current stats* that works out:

*Skills:* Hide +26, Knowledge (Nature) +27, Listen +29, Move Silently +29, Spot +29, Survival +29 (+31 in aboveground natural environments)


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2010)

> Environment: Temperate forests?
> Organization: Solitary
> Challenge Rating: x
> Treasure: None
> ...



Any ideas for this?  I have to admit being a bit fuzzy on the CR for these, since they're so unusual.  The DC for the lure of beauty is quite high, and I guess that's the main issue since the boon/bane has no save.  For a 50% chance of making the save, a character would need a +18 save bonus, which would require +6 from Wis at 20th level (for a good save).  Is that a reasonable bonus to expect at 20th level?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Updated.

The bane is about the equivalent to energy drain spell, while the boon grants a wish.  Both are 9th-level spells, which a wizard may cast at 17th level.  Since the silver dog isn't going to really cause any other harm, I can't see it being higher than CR 17.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

That's fine, if you think the Lure's save is an ok DC for that.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> The bane is about the equivalent to energy drain spell, while the boon grants a wish.  Both are 9th-level spells, which a wizard may cast at 17th level.  Since the silver dog isn't going to really cause any other harm, I can't see it being higher than CR 17.




That seems too high. As you say, the Silver Dog only has one way to cause harm, and that is sorted out by a simple _break enchantment_. I'm not seeing much justification for pegging them above Challenge Rating 10-12.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

What if we make the negative levels persist for a year or something?   At CR 10 or 12, everyone who sees one will be chasing after it.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we make the negative levels persist for a year or something?   At CR 10 or 12, everyone who sees one will be chasing after it.




Only the true neutral ones!


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we make the negative levels persist for a year or something?   At CR 10 or 12, everyone who sees one will be chasing after it.




Well yes, a lot of CR12 characters won't make a DC28 Will save very often, but isn't the whole point of these creatures that folk keep on chasing them?

Besides, a neutral character can get XP from catching them, and I don't want to make it a great deal of XP!


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah, I can live with the incredibly high DC, since their allies can restrain them, etc.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I can live with the incredibly high DC, since their allies can restrain them, etc.




So are we going CR 10 then, or do you prefer CR 11 or 12?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

I think 12 is reasonable.  They are rather durable, despite having only 1 real attack.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Won't everybody chase them?  How do you make it so only one or two PCs see it?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Note that the characters only have to chase it for 1d10+4 rounds.  Note also that it is faster than most characters.  So the odds of actually catching it are slim.

We could add one of those "regardless of success or failure, a charcter need not save again for 24 hours" disclaimers.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think 12 is reasonable.  They are rather durable, despite having only 1 real attack.




Suits me.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Note that the characters only have to chase it for 1d10+4 rounds.  Note also that it is faster than most characters.  So the odds of actually catching it are slim.
> 
> We could add one of those "regardless of success or failure, a charcter need not save again for 24 hours" disclaimers.



That would probably help a bit.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> We could add one of those "regardless of success or failure, a charcter need not save again for 24 hours" disclaimers.




I think that might be going too far. Didn't the original could make a victim chase it until they dropped from exhaustion.

I'd prefer "once a character successfully saves, they are immune to that silver dog's lure of beauty for 24 hours" so they will probably chase it for at least a few minutes.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm fine with that.

A few more things to address...

Armor Class: 30 (+3 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

+17 natural armor seems a bit ridiculous in this case.  Shall we give them unearthly grace like a nymph (they seem to embody "unearthly grace" so it seems a good fit).   

That would make it:

Armor Class: 30 (+3 Dex, +9 natural, +8 deflection), touch 21, flat-footed 27

Advancement: x

I'm thinking "none" is fine in this case.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with that.
> 
> A few more things to address...
> 
> ...




That's a good idea.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x
> 
> I'm thinking "none" is fine in this case.




It's alright by me, I hadn't given it much thought to be honest.


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Updated.

A silver dog is 5 feet long, stands x feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs x pounds.

Silver dogs do not speak, but understand x.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

They strike me as kind of skinny, so 5 ft tall and 150 lb?

Sylvan for sure.  Maybe Elf too?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> They strike me as kind of skinny, so 5 ft tall and 150 lb?




That seems awful light.

A greyhound typically weighs 55-70 lbs and can be up to 30 inches at the shoulder. Silver dogs are twice that height, so would weigh about 500 pounds if they were proportionally the same.

Afghan hounds and borzoi's have a similar build and would scale up to 500-600 pounds if they were 5 ft. tall.

We could make them incredibly slender and cut those weights in half, but I wouldn't like to go lower than that.

"A silver dog stands 5 feet tall at the should and weighs about 300 pounds."?



freyar said:


> Sylvan for sure.  Maybe Elf too?




Both suits me.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




It looks fine apart from the "gains gains" in the Silver Dog's Boon or Bane description.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Gaund*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean, hot caverns
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVE CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Q x 4
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 4+4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-4/1-4/1-6/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 650

Gaund are gray-green reptilian creatures with three glowing red eyes and are often mistaken for large lizards by adventurers. They are intelligent, but spend most of their time on all fours. They rise upon their hind legs and balance with their tails only in combat or when surveying their surroundings. Their skin is scaled and leathery, and of a somewhat lighter color on the underside. They communicate in a language of singing clicks and hollow whistling sounds.

Combat: Gaunds have 90’ infravision, excellent hearing, and great sensitivity to vibrations. This prevents them from being effectively blinded by exposure to light or darkness, or by the obscuring effects of smoke or vapors. They are surprised only on a roll of 1 on a 1d6.

In combat, gaunds do not use weapons of any sort, but leap about constantly, hurling themselves at and upon opponents, slashing with their claws (1d4 points of damage), snapping with their jaws (1d6 points of damage), and using their tails as lashes or whips (1d8 points of damage). They are fearless, and the death of a fellow often drives them to fight with even greater ferocity. If pinned down or caught from the rear, the gaund kicks with its powerful rear legs for two attacks that cause 3d4 points of damage. These are the only circumstances in which they use their rear claws.

The most feared attack of the gaund is the gaze or “ray” attack it can make with its central eye. This orb is protected by a bony hood which limits its field of vision so the gaund must aim its head to use the gaze. The gaze produces a magical effect identical to the 2ndlevel clerical heat metal spell upon any one opponent or object within a range of 90 feet. This gaze can be used against one creature per round and is in addition to its normal attacks. The ray attack can be countered by any means effective against the spell. 

Gaund suffer no damage at all from heat or normal fire, even dragon turtle steam. Magical fire attacks inflict less damage upon them, causing 2 points of damage per die, with a minimum of 1 point of damage per die. However, they are especially susceptible to cold-based attacks (+2 to each die of damage). They are also susceptible to sonic attacks and make saving throws against them at a penalty of -2.

Habitat/Society: Gaunds live in groups of up to twenty members, although large colonies of many groups have sometimes been found. They live in dry, fiery caverns, and are only rarely encountered in cool climates or above ground.

Gaunds are omnivorous. Although they do not build, use tools, or seem to have any type of social structure, they do husband food carefully, often maintaining breeding colonies of lesser animals to ensure themselves of a plentiful supply.

Gaund mating rituals include an upright, shuffling, head-tohead dance during which an an egg-bearing female turns a fiery orange. After a gestation period of about four months, 1-4 eggs are produced. These have leathery shells and are covered with a clear, spicy-scented slime. This substance is known to neutralize nearly all acids and, if smeared on a flammable item increases its saving throw vs. fire by a bonus of +3.

Gaunds guard their eggs ferociously for the 3-12 days it takes them to hatch. The young are small (2+4 Hit Dice), and do not develop the gaze attack until they reach maturity 3 to 6 months later.

Gaunds hoard gems and pretty stones of all types, and have been known to trade these for food with adventuring parties too strong for them to overcome. Generally, however, they seem both hostile toward intruders and territorial. Their lands should not be entered casually.

Ecology: Gaunds live a very simple and naturalistic life, so basic that they are often mistaken for nonintelligent, dangerous lizards. They are hunted for their hard and durable teeth by humanoids who live nearby. Tools and daggers fashioned from this material dull easily but do not easily split or shatter. Gaund tails are highly valued for their rich, succulent meat, which does not readily spoil.

Frost Gaund: This gaund variation lives only in very cold regions. Its color is bluish-gray or slate-gray. Its eyes are a glowing blue. Its ray has the effect of chill metal, as the 2nd-level clerical spell. The creature resists cold-based attacks and is susceptible to fire-based attacks. Its eggs are encased in a slime that protects them from extreme cold. It is otherwise identical to the normal gaund.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (1991).


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Cleon said:


> It looks fine apart from the "gains gains" in the Silver Dog's Boon or Bane description.



They look fine, though I was thinking of them as more like whippets (approx 20 inches tall and between 15-30 lb).  So make them 200-300 lb, and I'll be happier.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

On to the gaunds!  Magical beast, I guess, 4HD, and Medium.  The eye bit would be cool as a gaze, but I guess it should be ranged touch.  Seems like they'd have Spot and Listen bonuses and resistance 5 or 10 to fire.  2 claws, a bite, a tail slap, and rake seems like the attacks.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> They look fine, though I was thinking of them as more like whippets (approx 20 inches tall and between 15-30 lb).  So make them 200-300 lb, and I'll be happier.




A 5-foot dog is three times taller than a 20-inch whippet, so if it triples in each direction it would weigh 27 times as much, or 405-810 pounds. That's similar to the 500-600 pounds of the other breeds.


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Ooops, sorry, I was only squaring for some reason.  That's what I get trying to do simple algebra at midnight!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> On to the gaunds!  Magical beast, I guess, 4HD, and Medium.  The eye bit would be cool as a gaze, but I guess it should be ranged touch.  Seems like they'd have Spot and Listen bonuses and resistance 5 or 10 to fire.  2 claws, a bite, a tail slap, and rake seems like the attacks.




I was thinking the "excellent hearing, and great sensitivity to vibrations. This prevents  them from being effectively blinded by exposure to light or darkness, or  by the obscuring effects of smoke or vapors" suggests tremorsense or blindsense, probably the former.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




Just noticed another typo in the second paragraph: " The process by which they consume *moonlinght*".


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking the "excellent hearing, and great sensitivity to vibrations. This prevents  them from being effectively blinded by exposure to light or darkness, or  by the obscuring effects of smoke or vapors" suggests tremorsense or blindsense, probably the former.



I'd agree to tremorsense based on that, sure.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd agree to tremorsense based on that, sure.




Tremorsense 60 ft. then?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 13, 2010)

*The Original Hendar*

I happened to be looking up the Azmyth's original writeup in Dragon Magazine #90 It's in "Bats That Do More Than Bite" by Ed Greenwood) and noticed the article includes the Hendar!

This 1st edition version has a few salient differences from the Monstrous Compendium one.



It's spelled "Hundar" rather than "Hendar" and also has "Horse-Bat" as an alternative name.
They do not lose AC or take damage from drying out.
They actually take damage from silver - "The touch of silver is corrosively poisonous to them, and they avoid it. A normally harmless blow from a hurled object of silver, or a handful of silver coins, might do a hundar 1-2 points of damage, and all silver weapons do double damage to them."
Maybe we should add it as a variant?



> *Hundar*
> This subspecies of hendar is not as susceptible to dehydration as a regular Hendar but is violently allergic to silver. Take a Hendar, remove its Moisture Dependence special quality and add the following:
> 
> *Vulnerability To Silver (Ex):* A hundar takes 50% extra damage from silver weapons. Hundar are burned by skin contact with silver, taking damage for every round of contact (1d2 damage for 10 or more silver coins or a small silver object such as silvered manacles, 1d4 damage for a large silver object like a chandelier or 20-lb statue, maximum of 2d4 damage for complete coverage by pound of silver dust or the like).



I also wouldn't mind adding mention of Horse-Bat in its Realms entry:



> *In the Realms*
> Hendar are only found in the middle reaches of the Sword Coast, usually never farther south than Amn or farther north than Luskan, and on the northern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Hendar are often called "Horse-Bats" in the realms.



I suppose it might be too late, since they're in the Creature Catalog already.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Tremorsense 60 ft. then?



Seems fine to me.


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

On the Hundar/Hender, I think Shade can modify the CC entry.  You might also want to notify Echohawk about the other reference.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> On the Hundar/Hender, I think Shade can modify the CC entry.  You might also want to notify Echohawk about the other reference.




I'll post it on Paging Echohawk and see what happens.

Echohawk's spreadsheet has The Dragon #90 version, but spelled Hendar "Horse-Bat" instead of Hundar "Horse-Bat".


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah, I can modify entries once they've gone in, so I'm happy to add "horse-bat" in the next time I'm making modifications (takes note).

I don't think the other bits are interesting enough for a variant, though.

Fixed Silver Dog.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I can modify entries once they've gone in, so I'm happy to add "horse-bat" in the next time I'm making modifications (takes note).
> 
> I don't think the other bits are interesting enough for a variant, though.
> 
> Fixed Silver Dog.




OK, it's no big deal.

Shall we get back to the Gaund.

The rake attacks seem to be unusual in that the Gaund can only use them when it is grappled or pinned.

For ability scores, I'm thinking we could modify the SRD Gargoyle since they have similar HD and attacks.

*Gargoyle:* Str 15, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7

The Gaund is described as constantly leaping about in combat, so it may have a higher Dex, but 14 is already pretty good. Maybe just swap its Str around?

They've got average human intelligence, so I'd stick a 10 there.

The gaze attack is probably Charisma-based, so that needs increasing. Maybe 11 like the SRD Basilisk?

That would give:

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11

Hmm, that Con seems awful high, maybe switch a couple of points to Charisma to help its gaze DC?

*Gaund:* Str 14, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 13


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

I like those proposed stats for 'em.

Added to Homebrews.

I'd rather stick to standard rake, and just note in tactics when they tend to use it.   Suggested rake damage?  3d4 is alot. A dire tiger only does 2d4+4!


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like those proposed stats for 'em.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I'd rather stick to standard rake, and just note in tactics when they tend to use it.   Suggested rake damage?  3d4 is alot. A dire tiger only does 2d4+4!




You mean keep them additional attacks? I suppose that'd be alright, but I'd prefer an alternative attack, something like "Raking Talons" (see below).

As for the damage, a Dire Tiger's claws are woefully underpowered. Still, 2d4+2 ought to be enough for the gaund methinks.

*Raking Talons (Ex):* A gaund can use its powerful hind legs to attack an opponent it is grappling, making 2 claw attacks with a +6 melee attack bonus for 2d4+2 damage. Gaund can only make raking talon attacks when in a grapple, they are unable to attack with their hind legs in other circumstances.

If I persist long enough maybe you'll learn to love exception-based design


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Nope, I mean give 'em standard-in-all-ways rake, and note the likely usage in tactics.  I guess we'll wait for freyar to get back to break the tie.  



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> If I persist long enough maybe you'll learn to love exception-based design




Persistence if futile.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nope, I mean give 'em standard-in-all-ways rake, and note the likely usage in tactics.  I guess we'll wait for freyar to get back to break the tie.




I knew you were going to say that you anti-iconoclast you.



Shade said:


> Persistence if futile.




if?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

Persistence *is* futile.  

And typos are forever.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

That's the beauty of post editing.  

I have to go with Shade here, since I'm not even sure of the difference.  According to the SRD, rake attacks only apply in a grapple anyway.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's the beauty of post editing.
> 
> I have to go with Shade here, since I'm not even sure of the difference.  According to the SRD, rake attacks only apply in a grapple anyway.




Well basically the original goes claw/claw/bite/tail in regular melee or rake/rake in a grapple, but Shade is wanting claw/claw/bite/tail/rake/rake in a grapple using the normal 3E rake rules.

I don't mind giving it standard rakes, but if we do I'd rather they just did the gaund's regular claw damage (1d4+1) rather than the inflated amount (1d10+1 or 2d4+1?) of the original, since it's still got its regular full attacks.


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

Reduced rake damage is fine with me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Reduced rake damage is fine with me.




So shall we go on to something else then?

We should really be focusing on the Gaze Attack.


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2010)

> The most feared attack of the gaund is the gaze or “ray” attack it can make with its central eye. This orb is protected by a bony hood which limits its field of vision so the gaund must aim its head to use the gaze. The gaze produces a magical effect identical to the 2ndlevel clerical heat metal spell upon any one opponent or object within a range of 90 feet. This gaze can be used against one creature per round and is in addition to its normal attacks. The ray attack can be countered by any means effective against the spell.




This isn't really a standard gaze attack.  I'd make it an Su ray attack as a swift action, range 90 ft.  Maybe something like this:

Heat Beam (Su): A gaund may make a ray attack against any creature within 90 ft as a swift action.  If the target is carrying or wearing metal objects or armor, those metal objects are affected as by a heat metal spell.  A DC X Will save negates the damage.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> This isn't really a standard gaze attack.  I'd make it an Su ray attack as a swift action, range 90 ft.  Maybe something like this:
> 
> Heat Beam (Su): A gaund may make a ray attack against any creature within 90 ft as a swift action.  If the target is carrying or wearing metal objects or armor, those metal objects are affected as by a heat metal spell.  A DC X Will save negates the damage.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




That looks fine to me except I would add "Once per round" at the start. As written it could shoot multiple heat beams in a round, which doesn't fit the original.

Also, should we add "and heat beam +X ranged touch (special)" or something similar to its attack and full attack lines?


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2010)

You only get one swift action per round. 

Adding the beam to the attack line makes good sense.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> You only get one swift action per round.
> 
> Adding the beam to the attack line makes good sense.




I thought you could spend a standard action to make a swift action...

...Hmm, that's not what it says in www.d20srd, maybe I was thinking of a older version of swift action.

Okay then, in that case I'm OK keeping it swift.


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm fine with the lower rake damage...I just didn't want an exception-based mechanic.  

Updated.

Shouldn't the heat beam be Con-based, rather than Cha-based, as energy attacks are generally the former (when not spell-like).


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with the lower rake damage...I just didn't want an exception-based mechanic.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Shouldn't the heat beam be Con-based, rather than Cha-based, as energy attacks are generally the former (when not spell-like).




Good idea!

Shall we cut its Charisma back down to 7 then?


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Sure!  Updated.



> Gaunds have 90’ infravision, excellent hearing, and great sensitivity to vibrations. This prevents them from being effectively blinded by exposure to light or darkness, or by the obscuring effects of smoke or vapors. They are surprised only on a roll of 1 on a 1d6.




Increase darkvision to 90 ft. and/or low-light vision?  Tremorsense 60 ft. sufficient?   +4 or higher racial bonus on Listen checks?



> In combat, gaunds do not use weapons of any sort, but leap about constantly, hurling themselves at and upon opponents, slashing with their claws (1d4 points of damage), snapping with their jaws (1d6 points of damage), and using their tails as lashes or whips (1d8 points of damage).




Racial bonus on Jump checks?   Borrow and modify this?

Leap (Ex): A bulette can jump into the air during combat. This allows it to make four claw attacks instead of two, each with a +15 attack bonus, but it cannot bite.



> They are fearless, and the death of a fellow often drives them to fight with even greater ferocity.




Some sort of ferocity/rage ability?



> Gaund suffer no damage at all from heat or normal fire, even dragon turtle steam. Magical fire attacks inflict less damage upon them, causing 2 points of damage per die, with a minimum of 1 point of damage per die. However, they are especially susceptible to cold-based attacks (+2 to each die of damage). They are also susceptible to sonic attacks and make saving throws against them at a penalty of -2.




Resistance to fire 10 and vulnerability to cold and sonic?


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

Darkvision 90 ft, tremorsense 60 ft, +4 on Listen seems fine.

Leap is good, but I'm not sure which attacks to allow with it.  It's not quite a full attack like pounce (for the bullette), but maybe we could add the rake.

I'd probably go with a rage, though ferocity is a possibility.

Resistance to fire 10 and those vulnerabilities sound good.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Darkvision 90 ft, tremorsense 60 ft, +4 on Listen seems fine.
> 
> Leap is good, but I'm not sure which attacks to allow with it.  It's not quite a full attack like pounce (for the bullette), but maybe we could add the rake.




Those senses are fine by me.

I got the impression the Leap attack was with its normal claw/claw/bite/tail.



freyar said:


> I'd probably go with a rage, though ferocity is a possibility.
> 
> Resistance to fire 10 and those vulnerabilities sound good.




They don't seem to get any bonuses for being mad, so I'd prefer to give them immunity to fear.

Vulnerability to cold and sonic are good but I'd rather the fire resistance was more than 10. -2 per die is quite a lot when most fire attacks used d6s or d4s.

Fire resistance 15 would suit me better.


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

On second thought, that sounds exactly like pounce, eh?

Immunity to fear and resistance to fire 15 are fine.

Updated.



> Gaunds are omnivorous. Although they do not build, use tools, or seem to have any type of social structure, they do husband food carefully, often maintaining breeding colonies of lesser animals to ensure themselves of a plentiful supply.




Skills: 14 ranks
Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge Nature, Listen?

Feats: 2
Multiattack, Skill Focus (Jump)?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> On second thought, that sounds exactly like pounce, eh?
> 
> Immunity to fear and resistance to fire 15 are fine.




Pounce is fine. They won't be able to use their Rakes since they don't have Improved Grab.



Shade said:


> Skills: 14 ranks
> Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge Nature, Listen?




I'd swap the Knowledge (nature) for Spot and give them a racial bonus (+8?) in Jump. Probably +4 in Listen and Spot since they have such keen senses.

Skill Ranks: Handle Animal 4, Jump 0, Listen 5, Spot 5

=>

Skills: Handle Animal +4, Jump +14, Listen +9, Spot +9
_Gaund have a +4 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus to Jump checks.
_


Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Multiattack, Skill Focus (Jump)?




Multiattack is good.

I'd rather have something more interesting than Skill Focus though.

Something to do with them leaping about in combat - Mobility with Dodge as a bonus feat?


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

Dodge* and Mobility sounds good to me.*


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

That all works.

Updated.



> Gaunds live in groups of up to twenty members, although large colonies of many groups have sometimes been found.




Organization: Solitary, x (2-20), or colony (x-x)?

Challenge Rating: 3?  They are slightly tougher than a centaur at that CR.



> Gaunds hoard gems and pretty stones of all types, and have been known to trade these for food with adventuring parties too strong for them to overcome.






> In combat, gaunds do not use weapons of any sort






> Although they do not build, use tools, or seem to have any type of social structure




Treasure: No coins, double goods (gems only), no items?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: x


----------



## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all works.
> 
> Organization: Solitary, x (2-20), or colony (x-x)?




Well the original has "Organization: Group", so I would suggest:

Organization: Solitary, group (2-20), or colony (20-50)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 3?  They are slightly tougher than a centaur at that CR.




Challenge Rating 3 is fine.



Shade said:


> Treasure: No coins, double goods (gems only), no items?
> 
> Alignment: Usually neutral?




Yes to both.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




A gargoyle's advancement of 5-6 HD (Medium); 7-12 HD (Large) would suit me. These creatures don't strike me as very likely to gain class levels.


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

All sounds good here, and that would make them basically done.


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

Updated.

A gaund stands 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

And we need to tackle the variant underbar:



> Frost Gaund: This gaund variation lives only in very cold regions. Its color is bluish-gray or slate-gray. Its eyes are a glowing blue. Its ray has the effect of chill metal, as the 2nd-level clerical spell. The creature resists cold-based attacks and is susceptible to fire-based attacks. Its eggs are encased in a slime that protects them from extreme cold. It is otherwise identical to the normal gaund.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A gaund stands 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




Going by the picture they're pretty stocky and they've got that heavy tail. 200 to 250 lbs like the SRD Lizardfolk?



Shade said:


> And we need to tackle the variant underbar:




That's just a matter of using _chill metal_ instead of _heat metal_ for the eye ray.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Aug 28, 2010)

And giving it cold resistance instead of fire resistance.


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Agreed on the frost gaund.  Just a one or two sentence underbar, I think.

Frost Gaund
This variety of gaund lives in regions of deep cold and has slate-gray skin with incandescent blue eyes.  Frost gaunds have a frost ray instead of a heat ray, which mimics the effect of the spell chill metal, cold resistance instead of fire resistance, and vulnerability to fire rather than vulnerability to cold.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed on the frost gaund.  Just a one or two sentence underbar, I think.
> 
> Frost Gaund
> This variety of gaund lives in regions of deep cold and has slate-gray skin with incandescent blue eyes.  Frost gaunds have a frost ray instead of a heat ray, which mimics the effect of the spell chill metal, cold resistance instead of fire resistance, and vulnerability to fire rather than vulnerability to cold.




That looks fine to me.

Do we want to mention the cold-resisting slime frost gaund cover their eggs with?


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Feel free to add a sentence.


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Feel free to add a sentence.




How about...

*Frost Gaund*
This variety of gaund lives in regions of deep cold and has slate-gray  skin with incandescent blue eyes.  Frost gaunds have a frost ray instead  of a heat ray, which mimics the effect of the spell _chill metal_, cold  resistance instead of fire resistance, and vulnerability to fire rather  than vulnerability to cold. A frost gaunt's eggs are coated with a slime which gives them cold resistance 20. Each egg's slime is a 10 XP power component for creating cold-based alchemical compounds and magic items (no more than one egg's worth per item or compound).

I wouldn't bother giving the regular gaund's eggs a fire-resistant slime, we don't need perfect symmetry.


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Power components aren't core, are they?   If they aren't, I wouldn't bother with it.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Power components aren't core, are they?   If they aren't, I wouldn't bother with it.




That's the main reason I left it in red, so it was easy to cut out.

I couldn't remember whether power components were in the Unearthed Arcana SRD or not.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Can't find them in a quick search of the Sovelior & Sage version anyway.


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

In that case, let's leave it off.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> In that case, let's leave it off.  Finished?




They look finished, except  gaund is mispelled "gaunt" at one point.

I think that was me, I'm afraid.

*Frost Gaund*
This variety of gaund lives in regions of deep cold and has slate-gray  skin with incandescent blue eyes. Frost gaunds have a frost ray instead  of a heat ray, which mimics the effect of the spell chill metal, cold  resistance instead of fire resistance, and vulnerability to fire rather  than vulnerability to cold.  The slime on frost gaunt eggs is extremely  resistant to cold, rather than fire, granting them resistance to cold  20.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Fixed.

On to the next one...

Headless Avenger: About 30 years ago, a band of drunken ogres was stumbling down a lonely section of the Moonsea Ride in Mistledale, looking for trouble.  They came upon a giant constrictor writhing in the road, painfully giving birth. The ogres hid in the bushes, waiting for the last snake to be born, then set upon the mother and children with swords. They slaughtered dozens of the tiny snakes, then turned on the exhausted mother. With a single blow, an ogre lopped off her head with a battle axe. Howling with laughter, the ogres abandoned the corpses and continued on their way.

Woodland deities steered the ogres in the direction of a starving red dragon, then resurrected the constrictor to avenge the death of her offspring. To this day, the constrictor haunts the Moonsea Ride across Mistledale, attacking anyone she deems a threat. She looks like a normal constrictor made of clear glass, her head resembling the creature she most recently killed. She attacks with the special abilities of her current head, and can squeeze her victims with enough force to crush a tree.

The spirit constrictor plays no role in the natural order, though it apparently can consume any creature it can kill, regardless of species. The bones of its babies can be used to magically summon serpentine aides.

*Moonsea Ride Spirit Constrictor*
Int animal; AL CN; AC 6; MV 15; HD 6 + 1; #AT 2; Dmg (see below for head attack)/3d6 (constriction); THAC0 15; SA encoils victim on successful hit, victim suffers an automatic 3d6 points of damage every round thereafter; victim can be extricated with the combined efforts of 60 total points of Strength; SD immune to sleep, charm, hold, and death magic spells, immune to all poisons and cold-based attacks; SZ L (30’ long); ML 18; XP 4,000.

The spirit constrictor has the head of its most recent victim. The head, which looks like clear glass, can.t speak, but it can make attacks similar to those it could make in life. To determine the constrictor’s current head, roll on the following table or create your own based on the following examples:

D4 Head (damage from attack)
1 Giant raven (bite causes 1d4 + 2 points of damage)
2 Jackalwere (bite causes 2d4 points of damage; creatures meeting the head.s gaze must save vs. spell or suffer the effects of a sleep spell)
3 Wild stag (horn causes 2d4 points of damage)
4 Medusa*
*The Medusa’s head causes no physical damage. A successful attack against an opponent within 30 feet means the victim has looked into its eyes and will turn to stone unless he makes a saving throw vs. petrifaction.

The spirit constrictor only appears at night, and only on the Moonsea Ride in Mistledale. It will pursue its victims, but not more than 100 feet into the terrain on either side of the Ride. The bones of the constrictor’s babies can be used to summon nonmagical serpents, the effect similar to that of the animal summoning spell. The user rubs the bones between his palms for one round; the bones disappear, and the serpent, if available, arrives as soon as it can.

Each inch of bone summons 1 HD worth of serpent; for instance, 3 inches of bone summons one 3 HD serpent, three 1 HD serpents, or one 1 HD serpent and one 2 HD serpent. The user can request serpents of a particular type and size, but the final choice is up to the DM. Serpents only arrive if they exist within a one-mile radius of the caster. Summoned serpents aid the caster as conjured or summoned creatures; for more information refer to the various monster summoning spells.

Originally appeared in Elminster’s Ecologies (1994).


This is a tough one.  To account for the wide variety of heads, we'll either need to make it something like a template, or have some other system in place to account for CR adjustments due to deadlier heads.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.
> 
> Headless Avenger
> 
> ...




I'd make it a standard monster and give it a Random Head table similar to the Mutations Table we gave the Troll Mutate or those Radioactive Kobolds we did (whatever they were called). We can include a Medusa head in it which gives a gaze attack with a CR boost.

I'm thinking Deathless rather than Undead, and it probably only attacks creatures that despoil nature or when fighting in self defense.

How about we give it the ability to summon spirit-versions of regular constrictors (i.e. it's children).

Statwise, the SRD's Huge Constrictor Snake is an obvious place to start.

Finally, you'd think this creature would have long ago been destroyed (the original only had 6+1 HD!), so there may be some force bringing it back from the other side every time it "dies".

In other words, give it Rejuvenation!


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Hmm...I wasn't even considering undead (or deathless).  I was thinking aberration, since "Woodland deities...resurrected the constrictor to avenge the death of her offspring".

Yeah, that's literally interpreting the term, but don't tell me you haven't done that before.  

Regardless of the type we decide upon, i agree that rejuvenation is needed.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Hmm...I wasn't even considering undead (or deathless).  I was thinking aberration, since "Woodland deities...resurrected the constrictor to avenge the death of her offspring".
> 
> Yeah, that's literally interpreting the term, but don't tell me you haven't done that before.
> 
> Regardless of the type we decide upon, i agree that rejuvenation is needed.




I didn't even consider Aberration. They're unnatural creatures usually, so why would a Woodland Deity create one?

Their immunity to _sleep_, charm, hold, death magic, poisons and cold-based attacks shouted "Undead-like" to me.

Of course Undead are unnatural too, which is one reason I suggested Deathless.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I didn't even consider Aberration. They're unnatural creatures usually, so why would a Woodland Deity create one?




You answered your own question.  



Cleon said:


> Their immunity to _sleep_, charm, hold, death magic, poisons and cold-based attacks shouted "Undead-like" to me.




Yet they lack the usual "turned as..." that most old-school undead possessed.

Paging Dr. freyar...  



Cleon said:


> Of course Undead are unnatural too, which is one reason I suggested Deathless.




Deathless are unnatural, too.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yet they lack the usual "turned as..." that most old-school undead possessed.




It's not like their aren't plenty of other undead or pseudo-undead creatures that can't be turned.



Shade said:


> Deathless are unnatural, too.




Ah, but they're powered by positive energy, so are more in keeping with living, growing things that would be favoured by Nature Gods.


----------



## freyar (Sep 9, 2010)

Can't say any of those types really appeal.  I also get the "living" vibe in some respects, and they don't seem quite weird enough to be aberrations.  I could see magical beast, though.  Sorry to make this more complicated.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Can't say any of those types really appeal.  I also get the "living" vibe in some respects, and they don't seem quite weird enough to be aberrations.  I could see magical beast, though.  Sorry to make this more complicated.




freyar sighting!  

I could go for magical beast.  I definitely am getting a "living" vibe as well, hence my aversion to undead and deathless.  Other than that, I'm fairly flexible on the type.   It reminds me a bit of nagas (which are mostly aberrations), but could just as easily be a magically-altered constrictor snake (which it is, actually), making it a magical beast.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> freyar sighting!
> 
> I could go for magical beast.  I definitely am getting a "living" vibe as well, hence my aversion to undead and deathless.  Other than that, I'm fairly flexible on the type.   It reminds me a bit of nagas (which are mostly aberrations), but could just as easily be a magically-altered constrictor snake (which it is, actually), making it a magical beast.




How can it be living, those ogres killed it good.

Is the Spirit subtype from Oriental Adventures OGL? I would be willing to consider that.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How can it be living, those ogres killed it good.




They sure did.  And then "Woodland deities...resurrected the constrictor to avenge the death of her offspring".  They didn't animate it, re-animate it, or bind its spirit, but "resurrected" it.  



Cleon said:


> Is the Spirit subtype from Oriental Adventures OGL? I would be willing to consider that.




Unfortunately, no.  However, we've used it often enough that I don't find it problematic.  We usually mention it in underbars "If you're using Oriental Adventures ..."


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> They sure did.  And then "Woodland deities...resurrected the constrictor to avenge the death of her offspring".  They didn't animate it, re-animate it, or bind its spirit, but "resurrected" it.




They probably "resurrected" it about as much as a ghost gets younger when it "rejuvenates".

I just don't see this creature as having a natural life cycle. It probably doesn't grow old or have young (i.e. the infants it summons are the spirit-forms of its dead young).

Making them Native Outsiders (Augmented Animal?) would be acceptable to me - it's about as tempting as Deathless - but Aberration or Magical Beast just don't seem right.

Hmm, speaking of "augmented animal" maybe the Nature Gods can do this to any murdered animal, so we should create a "Nature's Glass Vengeance" template...

...better not. We've got enough arguments already!


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

I'll go for Outsider (Native)...they are the result of divine intervention after all.

No need for augmented...that's usually just used for templated creatures.

As for your last suggestion...EGADS!  

The giant constrictor snake has Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Do we want to adjust any of those scores for Ol' Glasshead?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll go for Outsider (Native)...they are the result of divine intervention after all.




Let's go for Outsider (Native) then.



Shade said:


> No need for augmented...that's usually just used for templated creatures.
> 
> As for your last suggestion...EGADS!




That was the intended effect.

Actually, a "Headless Avenger" template would probably be fairly straightforward once we get the basic monster sorted out, but I'll spare you the additional pain.



Shade said:


> The giant constrictor snake has Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> 
> Do we want to adjust any of those scores for Ol' Glasshead?




I'd increase the mental stats since we were going to give it a summon power. The "elder serpent" version of the AD&D giant constrictor can go up to Low (5-7) intelligence, so how about this:

Int 4, Wis 16, Cha 13


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I bumped HD to match giant constrictor snake, as it apparently was one prior to death and rebirth.

We'll need to work on rejuvenation and the "head abilities".


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I bumped HD to match giant constrictor snake, as it apparently was one prior to death and rebirth.
> 
> We'll need to work on rejuvenation and the "head abilities".




Looks a good start.

The Elminster ecologies version has 2 attacks and the bite varies according to the head, do we want to copy that?

e.g.:

Attack: Head +16 melee (variable) or tail-slap +16 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Head +16 melee (variable) and tail-slap +11 melee (1d8+10)

We can also plug in its immunities.

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunities (cold, death-magic, mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep), rejuvenation, scent

Oh, and as for its rejuvenation I'd go for something simple.

*Rejuvenation (Ex):* If a Moonsea Ride spirit constrictor is killed its body vanishes. If the constrictor succeeds at a DC16 level check it reappears at the site of its death 2d4 days later, alive and fully healed, even if its previous death completely destroyed its body.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

Updated.

Shall we work on the table of heads?

1.) Orc (I'd imagine it eats quite a few of these out of revenge)
2.) Medusa (mentioned in original writeup)
3.) Deer (mentioned in original writeup)
4.) Giant raven (mentioned in original writeup)
5.) Krenshar (the scare could be fun)

...and so on...


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Shall we work on the table of heads?
> 
> ...




Surely it should be Ogre for #1, not Orc?

I like the Giant Raven, and think we should give it an eye-gouge peck attack.

Krenshar's fine too.

If we give it another head option we can have a d6 table. 

How about an Ettercap? Those live in forests, are unnatural creatures the nature gods might be keen on eliminating, and it'd give it a venomous bite.

The latter is purely a coincidence, of course.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Oops!  Yes, I meant ogres.  I misremembered what "o" creature caused its unending pain.  

Ettercap counds interesting.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Oh, I forgot to say I think we should switch its Improved Grab from bite to tail-slap.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Good catch.

Updated.

The ogre head offers no natural attack or benefit, while the medusa is extra potent.  Should we increase the die size making the more powerful heads less frequent?  Or give some sort of CR adjustment?

I suppose we should summarize the borrowed special abilities below the table, eh?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good catch.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> The ogre head offers no natural attack or benefit, while the medusa is extra potent.  Should we increase the die size making the more powerful heads less frequent?  Or give some sort of CR adjustment?




How about the ogre head give it a Large creature's unarmed strike attack with full Str bonus, and we add half Str bonus to the other attacks?



Shade said:


> I suppose we should summarize the borrowed special abilities below the table, eh?




I'd include them in the table, e.g.:

1.) *Ogre Head* with unarmed strike (1d4+7 nonlethal).
2.) *Medusa Head* with petrifying gaze (30 ft. range, Fort DC 16, Cha-based) and poisonous snakes attack (1d4+3 plus poison, Fort DC 16, 1d6 Str initial, 2d6 Str secondary, Con-based). Increase CR by *+2?*
3.) *Deer Head* with gore attack (*1d6+3?*)
4.) *Giant Raven Head* with bite attack (1d6+3) and eye gouge attack (if bite confirms critical, DC18 or lose sight in one eye for permanent dazzle, or blindness if rendered eyeless, healed by _remove blindness/deafness_, Dex-based)
5.) *Krenshar Head* with bite attack (1d6+3) and scare (as _scare_ spell, Will DC 13).
6.) *Ettercap Head* with poisonous bite attack (1d8+3 plus poison, Fort DC 18, 1d6 Str initial, 2d6 Str secondary, Con-based with +2 racial bonus). Increase CR by *+1?*


----------



## freyar (Sep 20, 2010)

Hey, that all looks pretty good to me!


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Yep, fantastic!

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 14 ranks

Feats: 4 
Giant constrictor has Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness

I'd be happy to replaced Toughness with something worthwhile, at the very least.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, fantastic!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival

Swap Toughness for Track?

It's created to wreak vengeance, so it'd help if it could track down the wrongdoers!


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Indeed!

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

A Moonsea Ride spirit constrictor is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




CR6 and the same length and poundage as a giant constrictor.

We should also give it some sort of Hide bonus for its transparency.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> CR6 and the same length and poundage as a giant constrictor.




Alas, none is given for giant constrictor. 



Cleon said:


> We should also give it some sort of Hide bonus for its transparency.




+4?  +8?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Alas, none is given for giant constrictor.




Oh yes, how could I have forgotten. We went over that with the giant _titanoboa_. Well, we can just downsize that.

A giant titanoboa is 80 feet long and weighs around 10 tons.

A headless avenger  is 40 feet long and weighs around 2500 pounds.

As for the "Transparency Bonus" I was thinking +10, on the basis they were semi-invisible.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Yep, I remember that now.  Looks good.

Updated.  Anything left?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, I remember that now.  Looks good.
> 
> Updated.  Anything left?




We were talking about giving it an ability to summon it's "babies". Like _summon nature's allies_ except it only summons constrictor snakes. Maybe _transparent_ constrictor snakes with the same +10 Hide their Mama gets?

Also, isn't the Moonshea archipelago temperate?

Should we change the environment to "Temperate", "Warm or temperate" or "Any forests"?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

I prefer "Warm or temperate".  I can't really see the serpent in cold forests.

How's this?

Summon Snakes (Sp): Once per day a spirit constrictor can summon its young, which have also been transformed into living glass.  This summons 2d4? constrictor snakes with a +10 racial bonus on Hide checks. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Summoning looks good.  

Note that this thing is from Mistledale (the Moonsea Ride is a road), not the Moonshaes archipelago.  I guess that would be temperate forests; I'd need to look up my books to know if it's considered temperate or cold.  But this one, at least, is definitely not in a warm climate.


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Good catch, freyar.

I've been meaning to ask...should we genericize the creature as a "spirit constrictor", and note the original Moonsea Ride origin in an "In The Realms" underbar?   In that case, temperate and warm forests would make sense for any form of constrictor snake.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> I prefer "Warm or temperate".  I can't really see the serpent in cold forests.
> 
> How's this?
> 
> Summon Snakes (Sp): Once per day a spirit constrictor can summon its  young, which have also been transformed into living glass.  This summons  2d4? constrictor snakes with a +10 racial bonus on Hide checks. This  ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.




That looks fine to me. A constrictor snake is a probably a "2nd-level creature" so the equivalent of a _summon monster IV_ would get you 1d4+1 of them.



Shade said:


> Good catch, freyar.
> 
> I've been meaning to ask...should we genericize the creature as a "spirit constrictor", and note the original Moonsea Ride origin in an "In The Realms" underbar?   In that case, temperate and warm forests would make sense for any form of constrictor snake.




I'm in favour of dropping the "Moonsea" name and adding an In The Realms underbar.

Spirit Constrictor is OK I suppose, but I would quite like to reference its original "Headless Avenger" name.

Headless Spirit Constrictor?


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That looks fine to me. A constrictor snake is a probably a "2nd-level creature" so the equivalent of a _summon monster IV_ would get you 1d4+1 of them.




Would you prefer 1d4+1 to 2d4?  I'm fine either way.



Cleon said:


> I'm in favour of dropping the "Moonsea" name and adding an In The Realms underbar.
> 
> Spirit Constrictor is OK I suppose, but I would quite like to reference its original "Headless Avenger" name.
> 
> Headless Spirit Constrictor?




I'd rather not.  "Headless avenger" was simply a chapter-title thingee...it was never used as an actual name for the creature.   That said, I don't mind name-dropping it within the flavor text somewhere.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

You're missing an "l" in "availabe" in the tactics but it's pretty well done except for that.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Would you prefer 1d4+1 to 2d4?  I'm fine either way.




I'd prefer 1d4+1, but I'm not that bothered about it.



Shade said:


> I'd rather not.  "Headless avenger" was simply a chapter-title thingee...it was never used as an actual name for the creature.   That said, I don't mind name-dropping it within the flavor text somewhere.
> 
> Updated.




That's OK by me.

It looks pretty well finished, just needs a quick check for errors.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Hold on, I've just thought of something. Since it has interchangeable heads, shouldn't it have a SQ something like this:

*Survive Headlessness (Ex):* A spirit constrictor does not need a head to live. It can be decapitated by a _vorpal_ weapon and will not automatically die, although it can still be killed by the normal damage from a decapitating blow.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Hmm, that could be ok to add.  I feel like there are other monsters that can survive a vorpal crit, but I think they rely on DM interpretation of the vorpal weapon rules.  Of course, I guess most of them don't have heads.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, that could be ok to add.  I feel like there are other monsters that can survive a vorpal crit, but I think they rely on DM interpretation of the vorpal weapon rules.  Of course, I guess most of them don't have heads.




Have we finished with it then?

Apart from the Survive Headlessness the only thing I could come up with is having it be able to "see without a head".

e.g.:

*Survive Headlessness (Ex):* A spirit constrictor does not need a head to live. It can be decapitated by a vorpal weapon and will not automatically die, although it can still be killed by the normal damage from a decapitating blow. A spirit constrictor can sense its surroundings without penalty while headless.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

Updated.  I believe we're finished.


----------



## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

In "In the Realms," change "along Mistledale" to "in Mistledale," and I'll agree.


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

Consider it done.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Consider it done.




It needs Survive Headlessness in its SQs, but apart from that looks done.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Half-Wight*
The only relief for this cheerless existence is the occasional intrusion of living beings. These they attack without parlay or pity, trying to drain the life energies of the victims and make them into pale shadows of wights hemselves.

These pitiful victims are doomed to a long but not eternal existence with the remnants of their spirits bound to their slowly decaying bodies. They do not gain the rock-like skin of their masters because they are never petrified, and eventually they become too decayed to hold together and return to dust. What becomes of their spirits is still a matter of speculation. It is known that slaying such a creature releases its spirit in normal fashion; this has been confirmed with speak to dead spells. But whether the spirits of those half-wights (as they are known) that just finally dissolve are finally allowed to pass to other pastures is still undetermined.

A cleric can turn a half-wight with the same chance he can turn ghouls. The spirit of a half-wight that is slain or dissolves without ever draining a life energy level goes to whatever reward to which he normally would have gone. He can also be raised from the dead by a cleric of sufficient level. However, once the creature has stolen the life energy of a victim, its spirit becomes that of a wight. In effect, the creation of half-wights is the wight reproduction system. Raise dead will no longer work on this victim, though it will destroy the wight spirit.

The half-wight is described thusly:
FREQ uncommon; # APP 1-20; AC 7; MV 12"; HD 2 + 3; % IN LAIR 80; TREAS TYPE nil; # ATT 1; Dmg. 1d3; SA energy drain; SD silver or magic weapons to hit; MAGIC RES as wights; AL LE; Size M; IN average; PSI nil; ATT/DEF MODES nil.

Half-wights have to follow the orders of their creators. Once they have drained an energy level, they become willing wights. If they strike a target, they automatically drain energy. They still have some command of their communication facilities, but wights rarely allow their half-wights who have not drained energy to get to a position where they might warn potential targets.

Originally appeared in REF5 – Lords of Darkness (1989).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Looks like they actually statted up the "half-strength wight" from 1st edition.

Basically, it's the Wight equivalent of a Vampire Spawn, so we could start by taking the SRD Wight and applying a similar power shift as occurs between the Spawn and a full Vampire.

*Half-Wight*
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (13 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con --, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +8, Move Silently +14, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or pack (6-11)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

*Energy Drain (Su):* Living creatures hit by a half-wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 13 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the half-wight gains 1 hit dice. When the half-wight reaches 4 HD it transforms into a wight.

*Skills:* Half-wights have a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Yep, that is looking about right.  

Maybe reduce slam damage to 1d3 like the original?

Maybe a slightly larger pack due to the original # appearing of 1-20?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, that is looking about right.
> 
> Maybe reduce slam damage to 1d3 like the original?
> 
> Maybe a slightly larger pack due to the original # appearing of 1-20?




Maybe lower the Strength to 10 as well, since they're "decayed" and "pale shadows of wights"?

Str 10, 1d3 slam?

I have no idea what's going on with that wide No. Appearing, but I guess we might as well include it.

Organisation: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or pack (6-20)

There should be some regular wights in the mix, though, perhaps:

Organisation: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5 plus 0-2 wights), or pack (6-20 plus 3-5 wights)


----------



## Shade (Sep 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




That looks pretty done, except it's missing a "Medium Undead" at the start.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, that was easy.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, that was easy.




Yes it was.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll come across something more maddening challenging soon enough.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Oh well, I'm sure we'll come across something more maddening challenging soon enough.




Currently, it's called the Ghast-Lord.  

Fixed the missing size and type.

*Lesser Ghost*“You earlier said something about a ghost dominating its dead victims. Do you mean to say a ghost can have other ghosts under its control?”

“Not really. What I was referring to are lesser ghosts. They’re merely restless spirits whose passing on to the next world is prevented for a number of reasons: For instance, the person may have died with an urgent need to pass on an important message to someone or accomplish some sort of unfinished task. Thus, it remains on the Prime Material Plane, unable to rest until the message is delivered or the task completed. In another case, the lesser ghost may, as true ghosts, be angered over its betrayal and murder in life, and the creature cannot rest until the one who committed the crime against it is properly punished.  A lesser ghost might also, through its own misbehavior in life, find itself bound to an unhappy existence between worlds until it finds some sort of way to atone for its deeds. Lastly, the relatively weak spirit might remain under the domination of a greater ghost, free from obeying it, but tormented and unable to rest until the creature is destroyed.”

“Unlike true ghosts, lesser ghosts always resemble themselves in life, appearing as transparent figures, often dressed as they were at the time of death or in what they were fond of wearing prior to that. The visage of such creatures, while possibly unnerving, certainly doesn’t even approach the horror of that belonging to a true ghost.”

“As true ghosts, lesser ghosts likewise are limited to staying near the area of their original demise. They may, however, wander about the general vicinity, although their weakness makes it difficult for them to make their presence known. In some rare cases, lesser ghosts have been known to be tied to particular objects—usually something it was fond of in life—accompanying the object when it is removed elsewhere.

“During their wanderings, lesser ghosts are entirely invisible, for it is only at the location where they died, or where their body lies, that they may become visible to the living. Their presence might otherwise be noted through a gentle wafting of air as they pass by, and some individuals seem able to even sense their presence.”

“One clue that lesser ghosts are about the area is through encountering certain sounds that are obviously out of place to their surroundings. Somehow, perhaps unconsciously, these creatures project the sounds that the spirit enjoyed in life. This can range from the sounds of children at play to the merriment of balls and dances, to goodnatured swordplay. In all cases, such noises will be heard coming through a wall or closed door--and they will always cease when the living enter the area in question, lending credence to the idea that such phenomena are not consciously created, but instead occur through some natural process while the creature’s thoughts wander back to happier times it once knew.

“Lesser ghosts have no real attack forms, other than perhaps acting in a threatening manner when their lair is penetrated,” the halfling replied. “They may, however, possess objects for up to about 10 minutes, causing, for example, the chimes of a clock to ring, or a chandelier to swing oddly, or the strings of a musical instrument to be strummed. Unlike true ghosts, these creatures lack the strength to actually cause physical harm through haunting an object, and such phenomena are at worst poltergeist-like.”

“Lesser ghosts may for several minutes possess an individual in order to communicate. The host usually must allow physical contact to be made, although the creature may attempt to touch a target, gaining temporary possession of his body if successful. The duration for such possession is up to 10 minutes, after which the ghost will depart, leaving the host none the worse for the experience.”

“Hmm. They don’t sound as nearly as nasty as their cousins..”

“No, indeed. It is also much easier to deal with lesser ghosts than their greater counterparts. If communication is established, the creature usually is more than willing to impart what may be done to lay it to rest. It otherwise may be turned as easily as a shadow by clerics, and may be slain with silver or magical weapons.”

“You’re a fountain of information today, Desmore,” Delsenora said. “But tell me-- why didn’t you mention all this before I bought the book?”

“You didn’t ask,” the Halfling answered with a grin and a wink,”.and ‘.d have been 10 crowns poorer.”

Other Notes
The statistics for lesser ghosts follows:
AC 3; MV 18.; HD 3; # AT 0; SA nil; SD silver or magic weapon needed to hit; turned as shadows; AL any; XP 100 + 10 per hit point.

Originally appeared in REF5 – Lords of Darkness (1989).


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

These remind me quite a bit of the kada.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> These remind me quite a bit of the kada.




Yes, there do seem to be many parallels.

I'd prefer 3 HD Undead over template.

Do we make them ethereal creatures with Manifestation like a Ghost or Incorporeal creatures like Shadows? Manifestation would be my preference. with a limited form of Malevolence for the possession.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer 3 HD Undead over template.




That should be fine, since they lack the ability to do much.



Cleon said:


> Do we make them ethereal creatures with Manifestation like a Ghost or Incorporeal creatures like Shadows? Manifestation would be my preference. with a limited form of Malevolence for the possession.




I tend to agree here, since we made the kada incorporeal and I'd like to differentiate them as much as possible.


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

All sounds good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> All sounds good to me.




Right-ho, here goes a first stab at it, based on a mixture of the Ghost and the Shadow, it probably needs a bit of work on the Malevolence:

*Lesser Ghost*
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 3d12 (19 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Fly 40 ft. (good) (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/—
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Malevolence
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., manifestation, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str –, Dex 17, Con –, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18
Skills: 24?
Feats: 2
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-5), or mob (6-12)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any
Advancement: 4-9 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

*Malevolence (Su):* Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a _magic jar_ spell (caster level 10th), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target's space; moving into the target's space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost's malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target's space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target's body. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Manifestation (Su): A lesser ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a lesser ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with a touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon. A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost's incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

A lesser ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.


----------



## freyar (Oct 12, 2010)

Well, we have this:


> “One clue that lesser ghosts are about the area is through encountering certain sounds that are obviously out of place to their surroundings. Somehow, perhaps unconsciously, these creatures project the sounds that the spirit enjoyed in life. This can range from the sounds of children at play to the merriment of balls and dances, to goodnatured swordplay. In all cases, such noises will be heard coming through a wall or closed door--and they will always cease when the living enter the area in question, lending credence to the idea that such phenomena are not consciously created, but instead occur through some natural process while the creature’s thoughts wander back to happier times it once knew.
> 
> “Lesser ghosts have no real attack forms, other than perhaps acting in a threatening manner when their lair is penetrated,” the halfling replied. “They may, however, possess objects for up to about 10 minutes, causing, for example, the chimes of a clock to ring, or a chandelier to swing oddly, or the strings of a musical instrument to be strummed. Unlike true ghosts, these creatures lack the strength to actually cause physical harm through haunting an object, and such phenomena are at worst poltergeist-like.”
> 
> “Lesser ghosts may for several minutes possess an individual in order to communicate. The host usually must allow physical contact to be made, although the creature may attempt to touch a target, gaining temporary possession of his body if successful. The duration for such possession is up to 10 minutes, after which the ghost will depart, leaving the host none the worse for the experience.”




Sounds like it should have a time limit on malevolence, and we definitely need to get rid of touch attacks.  The sound business sounds like maybe they have ghost sounds (appropriate!), and possessing objects might work with prestidigitation or a weakened mage hand.  What do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, we have this:
> 
> 
> Sounds like it should have a time limit on malevolence, and we definitely need to get rid of touch attacks.  The sound business sounds like maybe they have ghost sounds (appropriate!), and possessing objects might work with prestidigitation or a weakened mage hand.  What do you think?




Do we want to make this a Supernatural power rather than an SLA?

All the examples of "possessing objects" only cause them to make sounds, which leaves me wondering what the "poltergeist" effects it mentions were meant to be.

I slightly prefer a _prestidigitation_-like approach over _mage hand_, but I think we might as well give them both.


----------



## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

You have any thoughts about revising malevolence?  Just stick to 10 minutes as the original?  Can it take over the person?

I think I like prestidigitation plus ghost sound (without mage hand).  Regular ghosts can get telekinesis as an Su, so we can turn prest. and ghost sound into a single Su for consistency.  Not sure what I'd call it, though.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> You have any thoughts about revising malevolence?  Just stick to 10 minutes as the original?  Can it take over the person?




It doesn't seem to be "full possession" as the Lesser Ghost uses it to communicate rather than attack. Maybe it can only force its host to perform free actions like talking, pointing ominously or knocking over an object?



freyar said:


> I think I like prestidigitation plus ghost sound (without mage hand).  Regular ghosts can get telekinesis as an Su, so we can turn prest. and ghost sound into a single Su for consistency.  Not sure what I'd call it, though.




Polterkinesis?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Cleon said:
			
		

> It doesn't seem to be "full possession" as the Lesser Ghost uses it to communicate rather than attack. Maybe it can only force its host to perform free actions like talking, pointing ominously or knocking over an object?




I like it!



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Polterkinesis?




I've heard worse names.


----------



## freyar (Oct 18, 2010)

Restricting malevolence to free actions is a really nice idea.

How's this look?  I just riffed off the ghost's telekinesis.

X (Su): A lesser ghost can use prestidigitation or ghost sound as a standard action (caster level 3rd or equal to the lesser ghost’s HD, whichever is higher). When a lesser ghost uses this power, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

That looks good.  "Minor Haunting" for a name?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks good.  "Minor Haunting" for a name?




I'd prefer Lesser Haunting, since it's a Lesser Ghost.

Besides, "Minor Haunting" sounds too much like there's hauntin' in the coal shafts.


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

_There's ghosts in them thar hills!_ 

I was trying to avoid using "lesser", since it implies a greater version exists.  How about "limited haunting", or just play "haunting"?

Edit:  Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> _There's ghosts in them thar hills!_
> 
> I was trying to avoid using "lesser", since it implies a greater version exists.  How about "limited haunting", or just play "haunting"?
> 
> Edit:  Added to Homebrews.




Of those two I prefer plain "haunting".


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

I'll make it so.



> “Not really. What I was referring to are lesser ghosts. They’re merely restless spirits whose passing on to the next world is prevented for a number of reasons: For instance, the person may have died with an urgent need to pass on an important message to someone or accomplish some sort of unfinished task. Thus, it remains on the Prime Material Plane, unable to rest until the message is delivered or the task completed. In another case, the lesser ghost may, as true ghosts, be angered over its betrayal and murder in life, and the creature cannot rest until the one who committed the crime against it is properly punished.  A lesser ghost might also, through its own misbehavior in life, find itself bound to an unhappy existence between worlds until it finds some sort of way to atone for its deeds. Lastly, the relatively weak spirit might remain under the domination of a greater ghost, free from obeying it, but tormented and unable to rest until the creature is destroyed.”




Retain rejuvenation?



> “As true ghosts, lesser ghosts likewise are limited to staying near the area of their original demise. They may, however, wander about the general vicinity, although their weakness makes it difficult for them to make their presence known. In some rare cases, lesser ghosts have been known to be tied to particular objects—usually something it was fond of in life—accompanying the object when it is removed elsewhere.




Do we want some sort of "tied to place" ability, or just let 'em wander like standard ghosts?



> “During their wanderings, lesser ghosts are entirely invisible, for it is only at the location where they died, or where their body lies, that they may become visible to the living. Their presence might otherwise be noted through a gentle wafting of air as they pass by, and some individuals seem able to even sense their presence.”




Natural invisibility?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Retain rejuvenation?
> 
> Do we want some sort of "tied to place" ability, or just let 'em wander like standard ghosts?
> 
> Natural invisibility?




Yes to rejuvenation.

Yes to "tied to place".

Instead of natural invisibility, we could just limit their manifestation ability to the site of their death since they'd be invisible from the Prime Material when they're ethereal.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2010)

There's something funny in the flavor text: should these have weight?  

For "tied to place," just steal from dryads like usual, taking some bits from guardian daemons?

X (Su): A lesser ghost is mystically bound to its place of death or possibly some object held dear by it during life.  It may not stray more than 300 yards; if it does, it instantly returns as if by a word of recall spell.


If they can't move from their special place, does the limit on manifestation make sense?  On the other hand, I'm not sure invisibility is needed either, since they can just be ethereal, like Cleon says.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

OK, I'll drop natural invisiblity (and weight, duh!) and add the "bound to deathsite" and rejuvenation.

Updated.

Skills: 24
Ghosts have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.  Do we want to retain this, or give lesser bonuses in these skills?

Feats: 2
Ability Focus (haunting)?  Iron Will?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> If they can't move from their special place, does the limit on manifestation make sense?  On the other hand, I'm not sure invisibility is needed either, since they can just be ethereal, like Cleon says.




Well I was thinking the ranges would be different, i.e. Lesser Ghosts can't move beyond 300 yards from their death site, and must be within 30 yards of their death site to manifest.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills: 24
> Ghosts have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.  Do we want to retain this, or give lesser bonuses in these skills?




I like +8 to Hide and +4 to the other three, but would be OK halving the racial bonus to +4 for all four.

Evenly divide the SPs between those 4 skills?



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Ability Focus (haunting)?  Iron Will?




Don't like Ability Focus for them, they've already got pretty good DCs for their likely Challenge Rating.

How about Force of Will or Hostile Mind?


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I like +8 to Hide and +4 to the other three, but would be OK halving the racial bonus to +4 for all four.




I'm fine with the former.



Cleon said:


> Evenly divide the SPs between those 4 skills?




Sure.



Cleon said:


> Don't like Ability Focus for them, they've already got pretty good DCs for their likely Challenge Rating.
> 
> How about Force of Will or Hostile Mind?




I'm OK with dropping Ability Focus, but it feels odd to give them anti-psionic feats when they have no ties to psionics themselves.  I fear most DMs would want a non-psionic alternative, so we might as well do it for them.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with dropping Ability Focus, but it feels odd to give them anti-psionic feats when they have no ties to psionics themselves.  I fear most DMs would want a non-psionic alternative, so we might as well do it for them.




I'm open to alternatives.


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

If you want to stick with "off the beaten path" feats, perhaps Open Minded?

For more standard feats, Dodge, Improved Initiative, or some skill-boosters?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> If you want to stick with "off the beaten path" feats, perhaps Open Minded?
> 
> For more standard feats, Dodge, Improved Initiative, or some skill-boosters?




Open Minded would be the best way of expanding its skills, maybe give them 5 ranks in Intimidate?

If you don't like that I'd go for Improved Initiative of those alternatives.


----------



## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

I like it.  Updated.

CR 1?

A lesser ghost speaks Common, but has no voice unless using malevolence?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like it.  Updated.
> 
> CR 1?




I was thinking CR1 too, and that's generous considering their lack of attacks.



Shade said:


> A lesser ghost speaks Common, but has no voice unless using malevolence?




I like the malevolent voice bit. 

Oh, and don't we need a time limit on the Malevolence? The original lesser ghost could possess a host for up to 10 minutes.


----------



## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and don't we need a time limit on the Malevolence? The original lesser ghost could possess a host for up to 10 minutes.




It's there...right before "The save DC is Charisma-based."


----------



## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's there...right before "The save DC is Charisma-based."




So it is!

In that case, all I could think of it adding a lack of weight. 

"A lesser ghost is about the same height as a human, but weightless."


----------



## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Fixed.


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

*Fish of the Great Glacier *
The oceans and rivers of the Great Glacier teem with a wide variety of aquatic life, including several unique species of fish.

The species discussed below are all 2 feet or less in length; the tiny crystal nipper rarely exceeds a quarter of an inch. All thrive in the icy waters of the Great Glacier.

Combat: None of these fish are aggressive; all swim from danger as fast as possible. Even the deadly crystal nipper and spiny sleeper are passive, posing a threat only to the careless or unlucky. 

Habitat/Society: All of these fish tend to organize themselves into schools of various size. None are particularly territorial, swimming freely throughout the rivers and seas of the Great Glacier. All reproduce by laying thousands of tiny eggs.

Ecology: The fish subsist on waste matter, plankton, or whatever other organic matter they can scavenge. All are edible by humans and quite delicious, though some, such as the spiny sleeper, must be handled with caution.

*Bloatfish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic oceans, rivers of the Great Glacier
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Scavenger 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: Sw 6
HIT DICE: 1 hp
THAC0: 20 
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1-2’ long)
MORALE: Unreliable (2)
XP VALUE: 7

The bloatfish resembles a white manta ray with a balloon-like organ swelling from its belly. The diameter of the balloon organ is equal to or slightly larger than the length of the fish. The balloon organ is always filled with water, and because of the fish’s unique body chemistry, the water is always fresh. Fishers lucky enough to catch a bloatfish sometimes carry the frozen corpse with them, sipping fresh water from its balloon organ by puncturing a hole in the side of the fish. When the balloon organ is empty, the fish makes a satisfying meal.

Originally appeared in FR 14 - The Great Glacier (1992).


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

I can't really see a benefit for a swarm of these.  We could probably just downsize the 3' stingray for this one, drop poison, and add the special bladder as flavor text.

*Bloatfish*
Tiny Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Swim 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Sting +4 melee (1d3-3)
Full Attack: Sting +4 melee (1d3-3)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +3 (+7), Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +5
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (10-40)
Challenge Rating: 1/8?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 1 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: -

A bloatfish's body is 1 to 2 feet across and weighs about x to x pounds. 

COMBAT

Skills: A bloatfish has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.  *When it is lying still along the seafloor, a bloatfish has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can't really see a benefit for a swarm of these.  We could probably just downsize the 3' stingray for this one, drop poison, and add the special bladder as flavor text.




If it resembles a manta ray, why would it have a sting? Mantas don't have stings. If I remember correctly, they can only slap with their "wings" or slam with their bodies.

The original doesn't have any attacks, but I don't mind giving it some token offensive ability.

I'd prefer a slam attack though.


----------



## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.




Its attack should be +6 (+0 BAB +2 size +4 Finesse) with its +4 Dex bonus.

Although I don't _really_ like Dex 18 for them. Something called a "bloatfish" is unlikely to be agile.

I'd be quite satisfied with Dex 15. 

The Advancement seems a bit iffy, how about 1 HD (Small)?

The rest seems fine.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

Looks good enough to me, too, and I can go for Cleon's suggested changes.  Can't forget the fresh-water bladder in the flavor text, though.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good enough to me, too, and I can go for Cleon's suggested changes.  Can't forget the fresh-water bladder in the flavor text, though.




Yes, make it equivalent to a full waterskin?


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Updated.

Once we determine its weight, I believe we're finished.


----------



## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

I'd go with 15-45 lb.  I get that by scaling a 25 ft long manta ray weighing 5100 lb down to 1 ft long (but assuming that the thickness doesn't shrink by that same factor) and getting 8 lb, then increasing by a bit to include a full water pouch.  If Cleon agrees well enough, then we're ok.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd go with 15-45 lb.  I get that by scaling a 25 ft long manta ray weighing 5100 lb down to 1 ft long (but assuming that the thickness doesn't shrink by that same factor) and getting 8 lb, then increasing by a bit to include a full water pouch.  If Cleon agrees well enough, then we're ok.




15 pounds is fine by me. Much of it will be the fresh water in its "pouch".

I can't help wondering what purpose the fresh water serves. Is it buoyancy? Do the young breathe freshwater and develop internally?


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> 15 pounds is fine by me. Much of it will be the fresh water in its "pouch".




15 pounds it is!



Cleon said:


> I can't help wondering what purpose the fresh water serves. Is it buoyancy? Do the young breathe freshwater and develop internally?




I think it's more of a "game mechanics first" design at play here.  They wanted a critter that would serve as a waterskin, plain and simple.

If you want to develop some of the rest into flavor text, I'm not opposed.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think it's more of a "game mechanics first" design at play here.  They wanted a critter that would serve as a waterskin, plain and simple.




Making up explanations for some of the monsters' weird traits is part of the fun of D&D. 



Shade said:


> If you want to develop some of the rest into flavor text, I'm not opposed.




I'd leave it as "speculation among the learned" rather than giving a straight-out answer.

Since great glacier fish "All reproduce by laying thousands of tiny eggs" I doubt it's some kind of freshwater pouch-brooding, and it's a very inefficient means of buoyancy compared to a regular swim bladder. 

Maybe they actually were engineered to be living waterskins?


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

It could be that the eggs need freshwater to germinate before being laid.  The engineering bit is also a good speculation.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> It could be that the eggs need freshwater to germinate before being laid.



That sounds like their milt is killed by saltwater, but we probably don't want to spell it out. 


freyar said:


> The engineering bit is also a good speculation.



Yes, it does beg the question of why they didn't create a plant that grew water-filled fruit instead. You'd think that'd be easier.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Updated.  Good enough?

Here's the next one to start thinking about...

*Black Burner*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic oceans, rivers of the Great Glacier
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small school
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Scavenger 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 3-12 (3d4)
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Sw 9
HIT DICE: 1-2 hp
THAC0: 20 
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1-2’ long)
MORALE: Unreliable (2)
XP VALUE: 7

The black burner is not a fish. It is actually a small marine mammal. With its chubby black body, puckered blowhole, and wide mouth, the black burner looks exactly like a miniature whale. The black burner has skin instead of scales, and secretes oil through tiny pores. Oil covers the entire surface of the black burner, preventing it from freezing when removed from the water. 

If the corpse of the black burner is ignited, it burns steadily for 3-12 (3d4) hours, providing light and warmth equivalent to a small camp fire. Alternately, about a cup of oil, which can be burned later as fuel, can be drained from a black burner corpse.

Originally appeared in FR 14 - The Great Glacier (1992).


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2010)

Uhh, downsize a porpoise or seal?  Then just add an SQ about burning it?


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2010)

That sounds about right.

To jazz it up a bit, perhaps the oil makes it flammable, even in water.   To take that a step further, make a swarm of 'em, and once they catch fire give them additional fire damage until they die.


----------



## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

Ok, I can get on board with a burning swarm of these guys!   Now we just have to figure out how to tempt PCs into burning swimming fish...


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

I was thinking summon swarm meets a torch.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Good enough?




You know, I've just realized the water in the bloatfish's bladder remains liquid _even when the fish is frozen_. It must contain some sort of antifreeze!

I think I'd like to point that out in the entry, and mention its "unique body chemistry".

How about changing the text to:

A bloatfish is a raylike fish found in cold waters. It is highly prized by fishermen, for in addition to its savory flesh, its balloon-like organ is filled with water which remains fresh and liquid, even if the bloatfish is frozen solid, due to the fish's unique body chemistry. A bloatfish corpse holds fresh water equivalent to a waterskin, a small hole can be punctured in the fish and the water sipped freely. Sages speculate that bloatfish were engineered to be living waterskins, but no definitive proof supports such claims.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Uhh, downsize a porpoise or seal?  Then just add an SQ about burning it?




I've asked this question several times already, but do we have 3E stats for a seal, officially or otherwise?

Anyhow, I think a Porpoise or Whale is a better fit, since they are described as miniature whales.

EDIT: I'll post a first draft, using a Porpoise shrunk to Tiny as a basis.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

*Black Burner Rough Draft*

*Black Burner
*Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4-4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4-4)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Flammable
Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +?*, Spot +?*, Swim +?
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, or school (3-12)
Challenge Rating: ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: —

_Description_

*Combat*

*Blindsight (Ex):* Black burners can "see" by emitting high-frequency sounds, inaudible to most other creatures, that allow them to locate objects and creatures within 120 feet. A _silence_ spell negates this and forces the black burner to rely on its vision, which is approximately as good as a human’s.

*Flammable (Ex):* ?

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A black burner can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to [6 × or 8 × ?] its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Skills:* A black burner has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A black burner has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.
> 
> To jazz it up a bit, perhaps the oil makes it flammable, even in water.   To take that a step further, make a swarm of 'em, and once they catch fire give them additional fire damage until they die.




Not 100% sure about having them burn underwater napalm-style.

Also, since a black burner corpse burns for 3-12 hours with the equivalent heat of a small campfire, they should do additional fire damage _after_ they die, too.


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Maybe the water can soak into them and extinguish them once they die.  But I think we need the napalm burning just to spice these up a little.  Otherwise, they're really just flavor and not a monster.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> You know, I've just realized the water in the bloatfish's bladder remains liquid _even when the fish is frozen_. It must contain some sort of antifreeze!
> 
> I think I'd like to point that out in the entry, and mention its "unique body chemistry".
> 
> ...




Sounds good!   I'll updated the entry.



Cleon said:


> I've asked this question several times already, but do we have 3E stats for a seal, officially or otherwise?




Yes, in Frostburn and Stormwrack.  Also, FWIW, there's a sea lion in Stormwrack too.



Cleon said:


> Not 100% sure about having them burn underwater napalm-style.
> 
> Also, since a black burner corpse burns for 3-12 hours with the equivalent heat of a small campfire, they should do additional fire damage _after_ they die, too.




Yes, it should.  Good point.



freyar said:


> Maybe the water can soak into them and extinguish them once they die.  But I think we need the napalm burning just to spice these up a little.  Otherwise, they're really just flavor and not a monster.




Agreed wholeheartedly.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe the water can soak into them and extinguish them once they die.  But I think we need the napalm burning just to spice these up a little.  Otherwise, they're really just flavor and not a monster.




Well I don't mind that, not every living thing in AD&D has to be a monster. 

They could be the pigeons or the mice of the Great Glacier.

Besides, statting up a swarm of the doesn't gibe with me. If you really want a "D&D use" for them, maybe they make good aquatic familiars?


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't require them to be a swarm, but I would like them to be able to burn in water.  I mean, I imagine most fish or seals will burn at least a little after you kill them and let them dry out, even if not as long as one of these.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't require them to be a swarm, but I would like them to be able to burn in water.  I mean, I imagine most fish or seals will burn at least a little after you kill them and let them dry out, even if not as long as one of these.




Erm, I'm not sure how that's relevant. Most living things will burn if you dry them out.

Besides, how are they supposed to catch fire (let along dry out!) when they're swimming about in the water?

Oh, and what about the familiar idea I suggested earlier?


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't mind these as familiars, but they seem rather limited in their usefulness for the majority of spellcasters.  <shrug>


----------



## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Erm, I'm not sure how that's relevant. Most living things will burn if you dry them out.
> 
> Besides, how are they supposed to catch fire (let along dry out!) when they're swimming about in the water?
> 
> Oh, and what about the familiar idea I suggested earlier?



I just meant that, if we don't have them burn while swimming (if lit properly, of course!), then they're not so much different than other living critters.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I just meant that, if we don't have them burn while swimming (if lit properly, of course!), then they're not so much different than other living critters.




Well why not just make them more-or-less regular living critters. Not everything's a special snowflake, you know. 

I don't mind them being flammable, but them attacking while burning underwater is extrapolating way too far.

I'd rather the oil just gives them some resistance to cold and makes them flammable in air, like the original text says.


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

How about we do that but allow Shade's suggestion: summoning them in air and lighting them?  Since they're not aquatic, they probably don't have to be summoned in the water.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about we do that but allow Shade's suggestion: summoning them in air and lighting them?  Since they're not aquatic, they probably don't have to be summoned in the water.




So, so you can use a like living alchemist's fire out of water? Presumably you could do the same with a freshly dead one that still has that "cupful of flammable oil" in it.

I like that idea.

It's a bit rough on the Black Burners, some adventurers can be real meanies.


----------



## freyar (Nov 27, 2010)

Ok, I don't even need the summoning bit if we write in that they can burn like alchemists fire.  I guess really like a flask of oil, taking a full round action to light.  

I now have this mental image of some PCs fighting trolls or ogre magi, running out of fire weapons but recognizing all the "fish" swimming around near them.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, I don't even need the summoning bit if we write in that they can burn like alchemists fire.  I guess really like a flask of oil, taking a full round action to light.
> 
> I now have this mental image of some PCs fighting trolls or ogre magi, running out of fire weapons but recognizing all the "fish" swimming around near them.




WIN.


----------



## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Ok, then, just take Cleon's basic stats and add

Flammable (Ex): A black burner (alive or dead for no more than 1 week?) burns easily due to the special oils in its flesh.  If lit carefully, a black burner body corpse can be kept burning as a small fire for up to X hours.  If lit quickly, a live or dead black burner can be lit and thrown as a splash weapon as a full-round action, following the rules for alchemist's fire otherwise.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, then, just take Cleon's basic stats and add
> 
> Flammable (Ex): A black burner (alive or dead for no more than 1 week?) burns easily due to the special oils in its flesh.  If lit carefully, a black burner body corpse can be kept burning as a small fire for up to X hours.  If lit quickly, a live or dead black burner can be lit and thrown as a splash weapon as a full-round action, following the rules for alchemist's fire otherwise.




I can go along with that. The original creature could "slow burn" for 3d4 hours. Do we want to keep that or use a different dice with the same average (1d4+5, 1d6+4, 1d8+3, 1d10+2, 1d12+1, 3d6-3 et cetera).

I like either 3d4 or 1d6+4, not much fussed which.


----------



## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

3d4 works just fine for me.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Same here.  Updated.

Skills: 4

Challenge Rating: 1/6?  It's slightly better than a rat, with higher AC, attack modifier and blindsense.

Advancement: x

A black burner is 1 to 2 feet long and weighs x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

Swim.

Sure.

Maybe no advancement, maybe let them advance to 2 or 3HD but stay Tiny.

2-4 lb based on scaling from the Baikal seal, the smallest listed (and adding a little bit to plump them up).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> Same here.  Updated.




Str 4 is -3 Strength penalty, so it should have 1d4-3 damage and -11 Grapple.



Shade said:


> Skills: 4




Split between Listen and Spot, which comes out to +7 with the +4 racial bonus from Blindsight.

Plus Swim with a "Black burners can apply their Dex modifier to Swim checks instead of their Strength modifier" note under skills, for +10 Swim in total.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 1/6?  It's slightly better than a rat, with higher AC, attack modifier and blindsense.
> 
> Advancement: x




CR 1/6 is fine, and I'd say no advancement.



Shade said:


> A black burner is 1 to 2 feet long and weighs x pounds.




Downscaling a 60 foot 60 tonne sperm whale to 18 inches long comes out to just over 2 pounds - 2.1 pounds, to be precise.

"A black burner is 1 to 2 feet long and weighs about 2 pounds."?


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Split between Listen and Spot, which comes out to +7 with the +4 racial bonus from Blindsight.




?????

Are you mixing that up with All-around vision?

I like the rest.  Updated.

We need to decide upon the multiplier for hold breath.  I think I prefer 6x like the seal.


----------



## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

Go with 6x and then just add text?  Can't imagine much from tactics: "Black burners are generally inoffensive creatures, attacking with their slams only as a last resort.  If one member of a school is in danger, others will sometimes come to their aid, however."  Flavor should mention how fond adventurers are of these.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> ?????
> 
> Are you mixing that up with All-around vision?




No I'm not, they're Cetaceans so get a +4 bonus from Blindsight like the SRD Porpoise and Whales. Look at their Skills entry:



> Skills: A  black burner uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its  Strength modifier for Swim checks. A black burner has a +8 racial bonus  on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It  can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or  endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims  in a straight line.
> 
> *A black burner has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> No I'm not, they're Cetaceans so get a +4 bonus from Blindsight like the SRD Porpoise and Whales. Look at their Skills entry:




Odd!  I've never noticed that before, and now that I look, bats have it too.  

It makes me think DMs may have been better served with a separate "Echolocation" ability in the glossary.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

This whole Spot check thing is ridiculous.  From the SRD on blindsight, "The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability."  But I suppose it's ok to keep the bonus.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> This whole Spot check thing is ridiculous.  From the SRD on blindsight, "The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability."  But I suppose it's ok to keep the bonus.




Yep, that was my gut reaction as well.  

But if it's good for the goose...


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> This whole Spot check thing is ridiculous.  From the SRD on blindsight, "The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability."  But I suppose it's ok to keep the bonus.




It doesn't bother me, but then I don't much care for the "no need to Spot or Listen check" rule for Blindsight.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




There's a "*burnes* as fuel" instead of "burned" in the flavour text and a stray question mark in "Flammable (Ex): A black burner (alive or dead for no more than 1 week*?*)", but apart from those quibbles they seem good to go.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2010)

Cleon said:


> It doesn't bother me, but then I don't much care for the "no need to Spot or Listen check" rule for Blindsight.



If the rule is there, it seems silly to provide a Spot bonus!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> If the rule is there, it seems silly to provide a Spot bonus!




While I agree the conflict in the rules is a bit silly, I prefer blindsight with Spot checks so I'm not complaining!


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> There's a "*burnes* as fuel" instead of "burned" in the flavour text and a stray question mark in "Flammable (Ex): A black burner (alive or dead for no more than 1 week*?*)", but apart from those quibbles they seem good to go.




Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Spiny Sleeper*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic oceans, rivers of the Great Glacier
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Scavenger 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: Sw 15
HIT DICE: 1/2 hp
THAC0: 20 
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1-2’ long)
MORALE: Unreliable (2)
XP VALUE: 35

Tiny silver spines cover the body of this plump fish, which has a white belly and long whiskers like a catfish. If a character (or creature) handles the sleeper carelessly (for instance it a character not wearing gloves or other protection fails a Dexterity check), a spine may pierce his flesh, injecting him with a powerful toxin. If the affected character (or creature) fails to save vs. poison, he immediately suffers the effects similar to a temporal stasis spell, and an ice-like glaze forms over his body. Neutralize poison or a similar spell negates the effect, as does certain herbal treatments known by some Ulutiun healers.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2010)

Ok, Tiny, 1/4 HD like the black burner?  Basically your generic fish with poison.  I guess it should be an injury toxin, but it almost seems like it could be contact since the spines don't seem to do damage.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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