# Ashamed of being a Gamer?



## Water Bob (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm curious about this topic with the gaming community at large.  I've got seven people in my normal gaming circle.  Other players come and go, but these seven are my core group that are normally involved in any game I play.  I don't always have all of them play (right now, three of us are playing), and sometimes, I've got all seven of them plus three or four more.

Out of my core group, there is only one player that has no problem telling the world that he's a gamer.

Two will take ownership of it if they are "outed", but they don't "advertise", usually keeping it quiet unless someone else brings it up (which is rare).

The other four of us (including myself) will never advertise and go so far as to lie about if if we are "outed".  We never talk about it at work or among friends outside the group.  And, three among these four will not even tell their wives that they're playing.  (I'm not married, but I usually tell the girlfriend of the moment if we've been together a while--with mixed results.)  Those that won't tell their wives actually lie about gaming to their spouses.  When we have game sessions, it's a "poker" game (all four of us are avid poker players, so we actually do play a lot of poker, too).  And, when we play, we have to play at the guy's house whom I mentioned first--the one that is not ashamed of gaming the way the rest of us are.



So, I'm curious about the rest of you.  Do you advertise you're a gamer?  Talk about it the way you would a football game to strangers?

Or, do you hide the fact that you game and hope that no one finds out that you do play?


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## gamerprinter (Feb 22, 2012)

No. At one time, when I was younger, I opened up, that I was into RPGs only when I met the right kind of people, but that was then. Now a days, I'm quite open, even forward about my participation in RPGs.

My daytime job is running a graphic design/digital print studio, but since I also create RPG maps for home use and professionally for publishers, and now developing my own published setting, I have large format printed maps all over my shop. Any time, any customer walks in my door and even momentarily looks at a map - I give the whole, "Oh, I'm one of those D&D nerds, and I design those for publishers and my own publications." I mean I tell everybody - cops, politicians, lawyers, priests, homemakers; everybody.

So not only am I not shy about my hobby, I don't think there's a person who has entered my shop in the last five years who doesn't know. Though I'm sure I'm a rare bird in that way.


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## S'mon (Feb 22, 2012)

I mentioned it to my line manager at work after I'd known him a few years.  I very occasionally mention D&D related stuff to my students if there's a relevant point of Law - "US lawyers are crazy.  Let me tell you what this New York lawyer said to me about copyright..." 

My wife certainly knows! And I can't imagine actually _lying _about it.  I'm a man, not a blancmange!

Edit: I recall last summer I told some nice people from US military intelligence I met socially at my mother in law's house in rural Tenneseee.  I said "D&D nerds" and they thought I was talking about computer gamers! :\


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## billd91 (Feb 22, 2012)

My geek flag flies. Anybody in the know can tell it from some of my t-shirts, bumper stickers, pasty complexion...


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## darkwing (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't mind talking about being a gamer. However, I don't own any wolf t-shirts.


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## Mark CMG (Feb 22, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Ashamed of being a Gamer?





Not so far.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 22, 2012)

S'mon said:


> Edit: I recall last summer I told some nice people from US military intelligence I met socially at my mother in law's house in rural Tenneseee. I said "D&D nerds" and they thought I was talking about computer gamers! :




While I don't go into too much detail to those nice folks who come to my shop. It often starts with "So you make maps for video games?" To which, I say no, and try to give a brief overview of how the game is played - it's played live, kind of like a board game, with dice, pen and paper, it's a story telling game.

To which, they respond, "So you make these for video games?"...


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## kitsune9 (Feb 22, 2012)

I work in business as a financial analyst, so this is a big deal when I'm dealing with budgets and managing financials. To say I play video games is to invite scorn for being "lazy". The IT dorks can be into video games, because it's related to "compooters and schtuff." If it was found that I play rpgs, I'd be out of a job and lose my reputation over it, so I keep my mouth shut and let my coworkers know I live a boring life with my wife. Managing people's projects is serious business and they don't want geeks.

Even before my career got "serious", I never was really into letting people know about my geek side. Playing D&D went from being "scary and losing-your-soul" kind of game to "Haha! Loser! Move out of your mom's basement!" game so I didn't want to have to deal with that either.


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## El Mahdi (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't really talk about it with people who aren't gamers, but only because they wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about. But hide it? Not a bit. If somebody asks me what I'm doing this weekend, I'll gladly say my D&D group is getting together to game. If I'm talking to someone who is a gamer about gaming, and a non-gamer asks what we're talking about, I quite gladly answer them, and will even explain the game if asked. I have no problems with anyone knowing I play D&D.

P.S.: I do however occasionally feel some shame when actually gaming...especially when I roll a fumble.


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## Aeolius (Feb 22, 2012)

billd91 said:


> My geek flag flies. Anybody in the know can tell it from some of my t-shirts, bumper stickers, pasty complexion...




SOOOO glad I re-read that.... "pasty collection" indeed...


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## SnowleopardVK (Feb 23, 2012)

I tell pretty much anyone who asks, discuss gaming at length in public settings, own several nerdy T-shirts (RPG-related and otherwise)... So I suppose it's safe to say I'm not ashamed of it.


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## Corathon (Feb 23, 2012)

Long, long ago I realized that I would never be one the "cool guys". It was oddly liberating. Instead I am who I am and other folks can like it or lump it. So I don't hide my hobby. My apartment screams "gamer", and I often talk games at work. In my profession, a fair fraction are gamers anyway.

On the other hand I wouldn't bring the subject up with a complete stranger, as most people are likely to understand or care. If the subject comes up, I'll talk about it happily.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

> US lawyers are crazy.



Damn right we are!

Personally, I don't advertise my geekiness- other than that which escapes involuntarily*- but if asked, I don't deny it.



> However, I don't own any wolf t-shirts.




I do, plus dragons, skulls, eagles, horses, swords, tigers, and Rennaisance suns/moons.







* in a class on Biblical themes in literature, Prof. Hoffer was breaking down the imagery an author was using to indicate that a character was evil- every aspect of the character was linked to a particular demon/devil/evil god.  I was eyes down, taking notes furiously while raising my hand to answer his queries of which devil was being alluded to in this passage or that.  After about the 9th one, he called on me *by name*, so I looked up to see _everyone_ in the class was looking at me.  Apparently, nobody else was even raising their hands...


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## Kaodi (Feb 23, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> I work in business as a financial analyst, so this is a big deal when I'm dealing with budgets and managing financials. To say I play video games is to invite scorn for being "lazy". The IT dorks can be into video games, because it's related to "compooters and schtuff." If it was found that I play rpgs, I'd be out of a job and lose my reputation over it, so I keep my mouth shut and let my coworkers know I live a boring life with my wife. Managing people's projects is serious business and they don't want geeks.




That sucks. I mean, I find it kind of ironic, because I am not sure I would want anyone who got that hung up on another person's hobbies managing financials. I mean, if you cannot judge relevancy properly, how good is your judgement at all?


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## Spatula (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't hide it (my books are in plain view on my shelves) but I don't bring it up, either. Generally I am uncomfortable talking about gaming with folks who aren't gamers themselves.

But lying to your wife about doing what you enjoy? Ouch. That's a rough life.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 23, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> * in a class on Biblical themes in literature, Prof. Hoffer was breaking down the imagery an author was using to indicate that a character was evil- every aspect of the character was linked to a particular demon/devil/evil god. I was eyes down, taking notes furiously while raising my hand to answer his queries of which devil was being alluded to in this passage or that. After about the 9th one, he called on me *by name*, so I looked up to see _everyone_ in the class was looking at me. Apparently, nobody else was even raising their hands...




I remember a quiz taken in Art History, where the teacher asked us to write down as many Egyptian gods as we knew. I came up with 18. Most came up with 1, some 3. Of course I own the 1e Deities and Demigods, and knew all the classical gods by heart. So Egyptian, that's easy Anubis, Geb, Ptah, Bast...

Gaming helped me in school in certain instances.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

Yes indeed!


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## mach1.9pants (Feb 23, 2012)

Lying to the wife (three of them) is almost beyond belief! 



I'm not ashamed of who I am even if my wife and acquaintances give me friendly ribbing


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## Gilladian (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm a teen librarian. I also buy the science fiction and science and languages books for my library. And I'm the "computer" librarian (all because I know a tiny bit of html and can teach a 70 year old how to click with a mouse). People expect me to be weird. Then again, half the library staff play RPGs...

I met my husband at a game shop, during a gaming club meeting almost 34 years ago. Nowadays, we have one room set aside as "the game room".  

I bring up gaming when it is appropriate. People ask me if I play online games, I say nope, tabletop rpgs are my hobby. I have minis made from my polymer clay hobby in my flickr account, etc... I cannot imagine hiding it. However, I do have more cat t-shirts than DnD ones.


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## SkredlitheOgre (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm occasionally ashamed of other _gamers_ but I'm not ashamed of _being_ a gamer.  I don't advertise that I'm a gamer, but if it or something similar comes up in conversation, I'm all about it.

I find it funny talking to people who have only played Skyrim or WoW and when I don't play, but know what they're talking about and can say "Oh, yeah.  During one of my sessions, that happened.  See, the orcs were flanking and..." and _they_ have no idea how I know whatever they're talking about.

"Wait.  You roll dice?"

I went to go get new glasses yesterday at Lenscrafters and on the little intake form, they asked for hobbies.  I put down "Role-playing games" as one of mine.  The nurse/assistant asked me about making jewelry (another hobby) and then led into "This friend of mine plays this game...um...not Myst...um..."

Me:  'Skyrim?'
Her:  "Yeah!  Have you played that?"
Me:  "No, I play paper and pencil role-playing games."
Her:  "Really?  How does that work?"
Me:  "How much time do you have?  Because it's a long explanation."
Her:  "Oh."


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## Niccodaemus (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm not only an avid gamer who spend a couple of years working for an RPG company, I also have designed, produced, directed and acted in Halloween haunted houses. I occasionally show up at a gathering of friends in an elaborate costume. (pirate, old man, or something just very "off".). And I'm one of the most "normal" people in our circle of friends.


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## Tequila Sunrise (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't go out of my way to advertise, but I do have a couple D&D Ts that I do wear, and I'm not ashamed to bring my hobby up in an appropriate conversation.

Unless I know I'm talking to fellow ttrpgers, I usually lead with "I'm a gamer." Most people assume I'm talking about console games, which is cool because I like those too. But usually the conversation turns to what I really meant -- D&D -- and I get to give them a brief explanation of what it is and why it's so much fun. It's all about confidence!

And I'll add that I'm a walking stereotype, so nobody is surprised that I play games -- console or otherwise. Seriously, I'm skinny and white, wear glasses, I'm good at math, and I'm studying to be an engineer. So my life is only getting more open in its geekiness. 



Water Bob said:


> "outed"



Can you clarify this term? I'm thoroughly lost.


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## Tortoise (Feb 23, 2012)

A decade ago I held a job where it was a plus to be involved in hobbies and games. Sadly the pay and benefits were not enough so I had to once again hide my favorite hobby from employers and co-workers. Now I work for a contractor and if the subject were to come up I'd have to deny it to avoid losing contracts offered by closed minded people.

Of course if someone finds out and starts making a fuss I have no hesitation with asking them if they'd like to speak to HR about harrassment and discrimination, but I try to avoid anything getting to that point. Future employment sadly hinges on these kinds of things remaining quiet.

It's no wonder mental illness is so prevelant these days. Everybody is too stressed from hiding even meaningless things from everyone else. We are a cruel lot, we humans.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 23, 2012)

No I am not. I don't go around advertising to everyone I meet that I am a gamer but I won't lie if someone who is not a gamer ask what are you doing this weekend.

As for lying to your SO all I have to say is that is not good. If you can't be your true self with your SO why are you together? 

I have had a lot of hobbies that people deem weird or geeky. Going to SF and Trek cons since the early 70s, being a member of the SCA, gaming. My religion also raises eyebrows because I am Wiccan. 

My son once told a teacher that his mom was Wiccan and she called child services. This was in the mid 80s during the height of the so called Satanism scare. Which BTW turned out to be bogus.

The worker came in to my very normal looking house except for the altar in my bedroom and the fantasy artwork on the walls and the gaming and SF and Fantasy books on the shelves. 

We discussed my religion she investigated my son's school records and medical records and closed the case. 

I refuse to be ashamed of who I am or feel that I need other people's approval. My family always thought I was weird  they always knew I was going gaming or to cons. My father just accepted me for who I was. 

My experience have except for the stupid teacher been positive. If you are comfortable in your own skin people seem to respond positively to that. 

I used to barrel race and do clown work at rodeos. 99% of the people are very country into country music very conservative folk. I had friends there who knew I went to SF cons and gamed. They may not have fully understood it but they never treated me differently or like I was some kind of freak.


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## Aeolius (Feb 23, 2012)

I am not shy about telling folks that I am a man of limited interests. I run an undersea D&D game, have sea critter tattoos, keep saltwater aquariums, and yes... I own a squid hat.

But I have been fueled by geek-power for decades. Anyone who knows me wishes they didn't.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

Aeolius said:


> I am not shy about telling folks that I am a man of limited interests. I run an undersea D&D game, have sea critter tattoos, keep saltwater aquariums, and yes... I own a squid hat.



RESPECT!

(I have a turtle hat and a sea-turtle hat.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

> Gaming helped me in school in certain instances.




How many of us know our Pythagorean Solids?


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 23, 2012)

Spatula said:


> I don't hide it (my books are in plain view on my shelves) but I don't bring it up, either. Generally I am uncomfortable talking about gaming with folks who aren't gamers themselves.
> 
> But lying to your wife about doing what you enjoy? Ouch. That's a rough life.




Yeah, I'm sort of about here.

My gaming books are clearly on display in my living room.  My family (both mine and my wife's) know that I play D&D as well as my friends (of which my gaming group make up a fair chunk!).

I couldn't imagine lying to my wife about gaming.  When we first began dating I didn't exactly tell my wife-to-be that I was a D&D nerd, but with D&D books sitting on a shelf in my bedroom it didn't take long for her to find out.  She's not into it herself, but she didn't go running for the hills either! 

No-one at my work knows, apart from one lady that saw me browsing some D&D stuff on the Net one day and asked.  I wouldn't deny that I play D&D if someone at work asked me directly, but I don't have any d20's on my desk, or anything like that to identify me as a gamer.

Funnily enough I also play Blood Bowl (basically a fantasy football board game), which I also don't advertise to others that I play.  I am quite comfortable with telling fellow Blood Bowl players though that I am a D&D player.  I figure that they're enough into a similar hobby (and there is a resonable overlap between the 2 hobbies) that no-one would be surprised.

Olaf the Stout


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## wingsandsword (Feb 23, 2012)

S'mon said:


> Edit: I recall last summer I told some nice people from US military intelligence I met socially at my mother in law's house in rural Tenneseee.  I said "D&D nerds" and they thought I was talking about computer gamers! :



Odd, I'm with Military Intelligence, and it's positively crawling with D&D players (still a lot of non-gamers, but definitely a fair share of gamer geeks in the MI Corps).  Around MI guys is the only time when I'm in uniform I will talk about gaming.

I had a lot of gaming fun in my time at Ft. Huachuca.


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## kitsune9 (Feb 23, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> That sucks. I mean, I find it kind of ironic, because I am not sure I would want anyone who got that hung up on another person's hobbies managing financials. I mean, if you cannot judge relevancy properly, how good is your judgement at all?




It's just the way it works. I know finance guys who work for video game companies and while everyone else plays the latest projects or have Google-like offices, it's a double-standard for the finance guys. Those who want to play find themselves out the door fairly quickly. Something about managing money means that you got to be a no-nonsense kind of guy who's completely serious, even in the "fun" companies.

However, I'm not really complaining because I have my own office, staff, and excellent compensation, so I'm happy to stay in the closet.


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## the Jester (Feb 23, 2012)

Why be ashamed of having a great time playing games? Or of being creative? Or of killing my friends? (Well, their characters, anyway.)

No shame. I have no second thoughts about declaring my gamerhood.


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## Salad Shooter (Feb 23, 2012)

I have a fist-size D20 sitting on my desk at work, and I periodically get gaming materials delivered to the office. It'd also be hard to hide the shelves of gaming books from my wife...

I also work at a Linux-based software company. I am far from the geekiest. Heck, I work with the guy that wrote Hack.


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## Piratecat (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't particularly like t-shirts with words on them, so I don't necessarily look the part, but I'm a game designer by trade. Discussing and analyzing games is downright fun! Computer games, board games, RPGs -- so long as it's not the only thing I'm talking about, I'm happy to bring them up in conversation if it seems relevant. 

We keep most of the gaming gear up in the third floor game room. Easier to keep track of it that way.


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## Water Bob (Feb 23, 2012)

Tequila Sunrise said:


> Can you clarify this term? I'm thoroughly lost.




Outed?  You've never heard that before?

Check out definition #2:  Urban Dictionary: outed








Kaodi said:


> That sucks. I mean, I find it kind of ironic, because I am not sure I would want anyone who got that hung up on another person's hobbies managing financials. I mean, if you cannot judge relevancy properly, how good is your judgement at all?




Yep.  I used to be a little more open about it.  Fresh out of college, I went to work in Medical Sales.  I made the mistake of telling my boss and fellow representatives that I played D&D.  They all seemed to enjoy my stories of what happened the game session before that had taken place on the weekend.

Then, I was in my office one day.  I had been late into work that day (it was one of those jobs where I worked from home a lot).  My boss and one of the other reps didn't realize I was in, and they were wondering where I was.  My boss said, "You know, he probably stayed up all night playing that game and couldn't make it in on time."

At that moment, I realized how much I'd hurt myself in the office politics by admitting I play D&D.  It was a good lesson.  My boss could have been talking about an alcoholic who went on a bender the night before and his intent would have been the same.

The entire time I worked at that company, the stygma followed me.

Never again.  I'm very careful about who I tell that I game since that time.


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## darkwing (Feb 23, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> My boss said, "You know, he probably stayed up all night playing that game and couldn't make it in on time."



Luckily for me, my boss was the DM.


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## jorgeo (Feb 23, 2012)

I'd be more open if the word "role playing" didn't have a sexual meaning. I've had people think I'm into dressing like a furry or a french maid when I said I like "role playing games".

I have to list my hobbies for a work presentation, I'm thinking of using "tabletop RPGs" to avoid confusion and potential shame


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## Zelda Themelin (Feb 23, 2012)

Not really. I just don't speak about it normally anymore than I speak what computer games I play. It's not often something I put into my job-application, but not only thing I skip (I don't mention computer games either).

I've run into some misunderstanding that it refer's to sexual role-playing, which is same word really. Lucky for larps they used different word, since it actually does include costumes. When costumes come up, I usually get the misundustanding part.

Roleplaying games are really sub-sub-genre and kinda expiring job here. People who used to play/still play stat to be 30+. Some are teching to their kids, some not.
So most of the people have no clue what it is, and I kinda hate explaining it. I suck at explaing myself, so that's just not something I like to do.

So unless it somehow appears in topics talked about I usually don't start one. Not even with friends who used to play and haven't for years, who know I still do. I mean, they aren't really that interesting about roleplaying games anymore, or especially about other people's characters.


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## Jan van Leyden (Feb 23, 2012)

Like so many others of you, I don't advertise my hobby but neither don't conceal it.

Not being a fan of funny apparel with slogans helps the first part, of course.

A long time ago I had my proselytizing phase where I preached the gospel to a lot of people. I learned that many people just "don't get it" and turn down any offer to just try it. Well, their problem, they are missing the fun!

Working for a software development company, a lot of colleagues have at least a passing acquaintance with RPG and/or have formerly played. If the topic comes up I don't have a problem to discuss gaming regardless of who might hear it.

A year ago one of our testers, who had learned from my hobby when I was discussing our last sessions with to colleagues who are playing in my group, asked me about it and expressed interest in giving RPGs a try.

I offered to run a demo game for the testers if he could garner enough interest from the group. The result was disappointing: of the 14 people, one wanted to try it, two gave a lukewarm "yeah, why not", one turned down the offer because RPG take too much time, and the other ten people weren't interested at all. And we are talking about university students, a group which produced a lot of gamers 20 years ago. Sigh.

So I stay on my island of gamer happiness and let the rest of the world wallow in the mire of the uninitiated.


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## Jon_Dahl (Feb 23, 2012)

I hide it.
I feel that I'm not surrounded by open-minded or welcoming people. I hide almost everything from everyone, including gaming.

If people ask about my hobbies I just mention jogging and reading. It goes well enough with everyone's fragile comfort-zones.


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## Li Shenron (Feb 23, 2012)

Never been ashamed, and never really understood why I should, or why some people are.

I'm not a geek about D&D. I don't wear t-shirt or buy any merchandize. In fact, I've never done that for any of my hobbies past to present. I am interested in _doing_ the damn hobbies, and then talk about them with fellow hobbysts, but not to make it/them a "lifestyle" or fashion style.

D&D is just a game over here. If spending a few hours per week playing a RPG game with friends should generate shame, then so should playing repetitive computer games a few hours _per night_, which is a lot of people do. And so should be playing poker, lotto, slot-machines and any other money-winning (read: money-losing) game. I know a couple of people who lost their house or shop because of gambling games. Nobody has ever gone bankrupt because of a RPG, AFAIK. If someone dared to raise a brow on me playing D&D, I would ask how much time or money he wastes on those above (or smoking, or drinking, or call-girls...) and I am pretty confident that I would be very effective on making them much much more ashamed that they think RP gamers should be.


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## S'mon (Feb 23, 2012)

Zelda Themelin said:


> It's not often something I put into my job-application, but not only thing I skip (I don't mention computer games either).




Yeah - don't put anything on your job application unless you think it will get you the job.  I'm amazed by some of the stuff people put on their CVs and application forms.  "I like watching TV".  Uh, great?


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## DragonLancer (Feb 23, 2012)

This seems to be an American thing to me because here in the UK it's not a problem to fly the geek flag. Talking about D&D has even helped me at job interviews. Yet in America it seems to be something so taboo which makes no sense to me.




kitsune9 said:


> I work in business as a financial analyst, so this is a big deal when I'm dealing with budgets and managing financials. To say I play video games is to invite scorn for being "lazy". The IT dorks can be into video games, because it's related to "compooters and schtuff." If it was found that I play rpgs, I'd be out of a job and lose my reputation over it, so I keep my mouth shut and let my coworkers know I live a boring life with my wife. Managing people's projects is serious business and they don't want geeks.




WTH? How can they legally fire you for that? Your interests away from work are of no one else's concerns but your own. Weird.


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## Zelda Themelin (Feb 23, 2012)

It really depends on company. I live in Finland and some places you can be how you are, other place's it's really better just shut up and act boring and unnoticable, unless you have some job-related good things to discuss. Work time is not hanging with friends, and not all work-places are for finding friends.

My pall used to work in this hobby-friendly company that was then bought by bigger and then even bigger company. And whole friendly work-enviroment went from there to byrocratic and socially "vanilla":

Smaller ones, it really depends on owner/boss/work-group.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 23, 2012)

for the longest time I kept it on the down low but now, my ID badge hangs from a Dungeons & Dragons lanyard and have no problem being open about it.  

Why be shy when the guy in the next cube is a kilt wearer and not a gamer!


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## Weregrognard (Feb 23, 2012)

I asked Orcus on my work desk.  He said "No."

Also, fuzzy d20s in my car


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## billd91 (Feb 23, 2012)

DragonLancer said:


> WTH? How can they legally fire you for that? Your interests away from work are of no one else's concerns but your own. Weird.




As long as they aren't firing you for being part of a protected class (usually racial minorities, disabilities, and gender, some places also include other issues like sexual orientation), they usually can, more's the pity.


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## Bedrockgames (Feb 23, 2012)

I am not ashamed of being a gamer and will talk about it if the topic arises naturally in conersation. But like any other conversation about personal interest, it is a good idea to not get overly self indulgant (just like I dont need all the details about rick's snowboarding trip in maine, he probably doesnt want an exhaustive narration of my quest for the sunrod of khurak).


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## Is_907 (Feb 23, 2012)

*At work:*
Seriously... discrimination for what you do in your own free time? That is absolute bullcrap.
No one is shunned or ostracized for watching football all day every Sunday, are they? It should be no different.

I am very open about my gaming. However, as we've all said, there are appropriate and inappropriate times to mention it. I don't talk about it with my boss simply because we don't have the time to chit chat like that. If we do, it's usually about kids, travel, etc--things we have in common.

Coworkers? Absolutely the ones I interact with often know. Customers? Most of them. The managers don't simply because we don't talk except when there's a problem 

*At home:*
Absolutely don't hide it.
Honestly, if you're LYING to your spouse/SO, that's a bad thing. If they can't handle you for who you are, that's not healthy. I hope anyone in that kind of situation seeks out some counseling to improve their relationships.


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## Dioltach (Feb 23, 2012)

Where I live, in the Netherlands, RPGs don't carry the same stigma as in the States. But I don't usually mention it, unless it comes up in conversation, because I'm tired of having to explain what it is to people. Even mentioning fantasy or science fiction just leads to awkward conversations with people whose knowledge is limited to Harry Potter, Twilight and Star Trek.

For what it's worth, I rarely mention that I follow rugby or study gemmology either.


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## ShinHakkaider (Feb 23, 2012)

Am I ashamed at being a gamer? 

*looks down at the Blacks in Gaming Thread* 

*walks away*


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## DrunkonDuty (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't discuss RPGs at work. Then again, I'm not very social at work. And when I do chat with co-workers I try to keep it light and on topics we can all contribute to. This means I usually talk about work, the weather, how bad my hangover is.

At home and among friends I'm pretty open. I don't make it my first topic of conversation when I meet someone for the first time. But I've got plenty of stupid geeky stuff lying around, including a shelf full of gaming books so any visitors will quickly work it out.

But I prefer to describe myself as a "massive nerd" without going into details of RPGs. Frankly, it just takes too much explaining what the hell they are.

cheers.


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## Nytmare (Feb 23, 2012)

It's odd, we were just having this conversation over at KOL not even an hour ago.  

I walked into an Enterprise Rent-a-car yesterday and stumbled into a game in progress between the employees.  I was amazed and blurted out an "Oh my god, are you guys playing D&D?!" and the players turned as one and leveled a look at me that made my stomach drop.  

It was only as the overly excited DM ran up to the counter to help me and chew my ear for a half hour that I realized that he must have been torturing his non-gamer coworkers for about a week and that he just didn't understand or realize that a fairly large chunk of the universe does not, and *will* not give a crap about your hobbies, no matter how much you try to convince them that they're going to freaking LOVE those green eggs and ham.

I am a gamer.  Am I embarrassed by that?  No.  

BUT, there are a lot of time that I'm embarrassed by other gamers.

...Actually, no.  Let me rephrase that.  I am a loud and obnoxious person, and I am embarrassed by *other* loud and obnoxious people who don't know how to reign it in when they are in public; and unfortunately, in the circles that I run in, 95% of those people are gamers.

Sitting in a restaurant, or on a crowded bus, or in the lobby of an Enterprise Rent-a-car, having to listen to someone recount, round for freaking round, and in a booming get-it-to-the-back-row-of-the-auditorium voice, how last week he marched to King Dwarfhammer's castle and murdered 27 orcs and one of them was riding on a dire wolf and he got three crits on the dire wolf, so they decided that meant that he cut off it's head, so then he made its head into a helmet... 

I don't want to sit through that conversation under any circumstances; but especially not in a place where it's going to be mistaken for the unmedicated rantings of a mental patient.

Professionally, I travel in a lot of different circles, and a lot of them lean very heavily towards "artsy" or "geeky" so I can usually get away with people knowing my dirty little secret.  That being said however, I do not advertise, and I make sure that I keep a separate online presence for the people who don't really know me.

I am not a public figure, but there are times where my job makes me pretend to be one.  A lot of what I do relies on a facade that's two parts politician and one part rock star, and having someone google my name and email address and tie me to a hobby they deem as socially unacceptable could be disruptive.

The center piece of my house is the game room.  There's a huge, custom built game table that dominates the room.  The walls are lined with bookshelves that have a couple of hundred board games and RPGs on them.  Most of my work friends have never been past my front door.  

I'm not embarrassed about being a gamer, but I know that some things will be easier if people don't know.


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## DMKastmaria (Feb 23, 2012)

I've never done the "Gamer Shame" thing.

And while I realize that some folks are in delicate and unfair positions, in general, if you go around acting all furtive and ashamed about what you're doing, you can hardly be surprised when others choose to agree with you.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 23, 2012)

Not ashamed one whit.

But I also have enough sense to not deluge disinterested folks with the minutia of my life. Folks I interact with regularly know I game, but unless they ask for clarification (ie, show interest), that's about where it stops.


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## OnlineDM (Feb 23, 2012)

I started another thread on this topic a year and a half ago, which I resurrected six months later. This was also related to a pair of blog posts.

I, too, work in finance, where I haven't met a lot of gamers. I have met a couple, however, and it helped. I found out that they were gamers when I talked about arranging a work trip to Indianapolis in 2011 so that I could have my plane ticket to GenCon covered by my company. The guy who arranged events for me to speak at turned out to be a gamer, too.

Since then, I've become much more open about my hobby. I don't go out of my way to advertise it and recruit co-workers to game, but I no longer have any fear about "letting it slip". I like to play role-playing games, like Dungeons and Dragons. I guess I'm a senior enough person in the company now that people aren't going to berate me for whatever I'm into.


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## DMKastmaria (Feb 23, 2012)

Cor Azer said:


> Not ashamed one whit.
> 
> But I also have enough sense to not deluge disinterested folks with the minutia of my life. Folks I interact with regularly know I game, but unless they ask for clarification (ie, show interest), that's about where it stops.




This should really be a given, though. I don't boor people with my love of cooking, either. But I'm not going to take off my apron, just because I have to answer the door. 

Allright, I don't wear an apron when I cook, but you get the idea.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 23, 2012)

DMKastmaria said:


> This should really be a given, though. I don't boor people with my love of cooking, either. But I'm not going to take off my apron, just because I have to answer the door.
> 
> Allright, I don't wear an apron when I cook, but you get the idea.



It should be a given, but alas, one of the reasons negative stereotypes exist is because some don't have the needed common sense.


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## Water Bob (Feb 23, 2012)

One thing that amazing me is that I look at US football, and it is full of rabid fans--more than that.  Let's call them fanatics.  They dress up and paint themselves for the game.  They read books and discuss it among their friends.

It's really the same type of activity as being "into" RPGs or someone who loves Star Trek.

Yet, the former is socially acceptible among the public at large while the other two are socially frowned upon.

It's an interesting dynamic about our culture.


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## kitsune9 (Feb 23, 2012)

DragonLancer said:


> WTH? How can they legally fire you for that? Your interests away from work are of no one else's concerns but your own. Weird.




Definitely. Just like they can fire you for your pictures on Facebook, or your political affiliations, or just about any other thing if you don't mesh with the organizational culture. It's called employment at will in which a company can terminate you for any reason or reason at all so long it's not based in discrimination (your gender, age, religion, etc, etc.).


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## wingsandsword (Feb 23, 2012)

DragonLancer said:


> WTH? How can they legally fire you for that? Your interests away from work are of no one else's concerns but your own. Weird.




Hoping to not go too far into politics for this board, generally speaking, in the US, they can fire you for (almost) any reason, at any time.  It's called "at will employment".

The only illegal reasons to fire somebody if you are doing it because they are a "protected class" (Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Age 40 or over, Sex, Disability, Veteran or Military status, or genetic information), those protections are in Federal law.  Some states add some additional protections like LBGT status.

Generally speaking, in the US it's legal to fire an employee because of the car they drive, the sports team they like, if they are LBGT, what street they live on, or what they had for dinner last night. . .just as long as it's not one of the specific reasons listed above.

I'd say more about the entire system, but my commentary on that would go way far afield of this boards politics rules.


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Feb 23, 2012)

I think that being a gamer carries a certain stigma and people automatically stereotype you if you admit to being one. I don't go around announcing my hobby to others, but I also don't hide it from them either. I've been to local game days, helped with the local con, and am in a regular bi-weekly group. I wear nerdy shirts (more like Sheldon Cooper from TBBT) rather than D&D specific.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 23, 2012)

Also since one of my primary RPG related activities is creating fictional maps (being a professional fantasy cartographer), playing D&D is actually more normal than the hobby of creating maps of non-existent places.

Try that hobby explanation by itself. First of all whose normal hobby is to make maps in the first place, especially of places that aren't real. I know other cartographers who are as much hiding in the closet about this kind of map design, as many in this thread are about their gaming hobby, and some of those cartographers don't even game.

I explain that I play and design for the RPG industry to help 'logically' explain why I create maps in the first place. So RPGs are my normal hobby to justify my artistic and exotic map making hobby...


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 23, 2012)

Things I am ashamed of... 

Well, when i was time traveling I introduced the concept to tentacle hentia to Japan. And then I said "you've been cooped up in the house too much, go out and take in a show, maybe a play" to Abraham Lincoln. 

I am not ashamed of gaming, but I rarely discuss it with people who are not games. By comparison, I am not ashamed of hunting, drinking bourbon, my sexuality or several issues. But I rarely discuss these issues with people I do not know very well.


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## malcolypse (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm proud of my gaming. If it comes up in conversation, I'll tell anyone who's interested, but I don't proselytize to people who don't want to hear it.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 23, 2012)

Being a D&D player really helps pull in the ladies. It got me a raise and a promotion at work. The only reason my wife married me is because I'm a DM. 

*wakes up*

No, I don't really advertise that I play D&D. If someone asks, I don't mind talking about it if I think they are genuinely interested. Most of the time though, I just downplay it because I don't want to explain it. Like when people find out I sell stuff online and ask me about it, I just explain that I sell gaming and collectible toys. If they ask what kind, I use Warhammer as an example since they most likely have seen a Warhammer game setup at the mall. Usually they don't press the issue any further than that. But if they did, I have no problem explaining what I sell and I will explain to them what D&D is.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 23, 2012)

malcolypse said:


> I'm proud of my gaming. If it comes up in conversation, I'll tell anyone who's interested, but I don't proselytize to people who don't want to hear it.




I guess I'm more like Charlemagne or Merovich to those probably don't want to hear it, I say, "Convert or die!" (I don't actually kill them, but proselytize them to death...)


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## Incenjucar (Feb 23, 2012)

I've been a game tester for over two years now, and in general my prosperity has been due to gaming (D&D made me a spreadsheet star), so I'm quite comfortable being called a "gamer," though I'm quick to remind that it is only an aspect of my person and not the whole of my identity. I would not like to be mistaken for a lifestyler who lives only for a very narrow range of purely fictional experiences in life.


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## kitsune9 (Feb 23, 2012)

wingsandsword said:


> Odd, I'm with Military Intelligence, and it's positively crawling with D&D players (still a lot of non-gamers, but definitely a fair share of gamer geeks in the MI Corps).  Around MI guys is the only time when I'm in uniform I will talk about gaming.
> 
> I had a lot of gaming fun in my time at Ft. Huachuca.




My dad was in the Navy and he knew a ton of gamers in the military and that's how he got into it (I got into it from school).


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## qstor (Feb 23, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> So, I'm curious about the rest of you.  Do you advertise you're a gamer?  Talk about it the way you would a football game to strangers?
> 
> Or, do you hide the fact that you game and hope that no one finds out that you do play?




I advertise it to friends and family. Sometimes to strangers if its brought up. Like I was looking at the D&D books a few years ago at Borders and a woman was buying a PHB for her younger son and wondered about it. I told her it was a fun way to be creative and not harmful and mentioned I had two other lawyer friends, a doctor friend and a computer scientist professor friend that played. I always tell my parents about my friend who was a US Marine at Khe San that plays since my dad is kinda around his age. I used to be more shy about it but now I'm proud to be a gamer.

But as the reverse, I have a friend in out Pathfinder group that flat out told me if I tag him in a gaming convention photo I told of all if us, that he'd defriend me on Facebook.

Mike


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> My dad was in the Navy and he knew a ton of gamers in the military and that's how he got into it (I got into it from school).




My Dad was Army medical, and while neither he nor any of his buddies were gamers, many of their kids played wargames & RPGs.  While they didn't introduce me to the game, they were my primary source of tablemates for my first 5 years in the hobby.

And I always noticed a lot of servicemen in game stores...and in the playtest credits for certain game expansions (especially in Star Fleet Battles).


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## malcolypse (Feb 23, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> I guess I'm more like Charlemagne or Merovich to those probably don't want to hear it, I say, "Convert or die!" (I don't actually kill them, but proselytize them to death...)




 "Game or death?" That's a pretty easy question. Anyone could answer that.

"Game or death?"

"Eh, game please."

"Very well! Give him game!"

"Oh, thanks very much. It's very nice."

"You! Game or death?"

“Uh, game for me, too, please."

"Very well! Give him game, too! We're gonna run out of game at this rate. You! Game or death?"

"Uh, death, please. No, game! Game! Game, sorry. Sorry..."

"You said death first, uh-uh, death first!"

"Well, I meant game!"

"Oh, all right."

Somebody get Eddie Izzard on the phone! gamerprinter and I just wrote some great material for his next show!


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## DragonLancer (Feb 23, 2012)

wingsandsword said:


> Hoping to not go too far into politics for this board, generally speaking, in the US, they can fire you for (almost) any reason, at any time.  It's called "at will employment".
> 
> The only illegal reasons to fire somebody if you are doing it because they are a "protected class" (Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Age 40 or over, Sex, Disability, Veteran or Military status, or genetic information), those protections are in Federal law.  Some states add some additional protections like LBGT status.
> 
> ...




I don't want to breach the politics rules but frankly I am horrified by this. If a company tried that over here in the UK you would sue them for unfair dismissal and win. You need a legit reason here and someone's out of work hobbies are certainly not one of them.


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 23, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> My dad was in the Navy and he knew a ton of gamers in the military and that's how he got into it (I got into it from school).




I'm in Australia.  One of the players in my game was in the Navy.  He has a number of stories of campaigns he played while posted out at sea.

He is no longer in the Navy, but said that when he was (in the 80's and 90's), there was quite a lot of roleplayers and wargamers.

Olaf the Stout


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## Cor Azer (Feb 24, 2012)

DragonLancer said:


> I don't want to breach the politics rules but frankly I am horrified by this. If a company tried that over here in the UK you would sue them for unfair dismissal and win. You need a legit reason here and someone's out of work hobbies are certainly not one of them.




To be fair, the flip side of it is that the employee can quit for any reason and not be penalized.

And employers and employees are always allowed to sign contracts specifying further restrictions on either party if all agree. The "at-will" part is just the default. (Or such is my understanding)


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## Lwaxy (Feb 24, 2012)

RPGs are just like everything else I do. If I would feel the need to hide it or be ashamed about, it would probably be the wrong thing for me to do.

But I'm a very private person and don't usually talk about any of my interests to people I don't know well enough or who don't share the same interests. I will talk about RPGs in the hobby store and about our cats at the vet's but not to any random person on the bus.


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## Water Bob (Feb 24, 2012)

DragonLancer said:


> I don't want to breach the politics rules but frankly I am horrified by this. If a company tried that over here in the UK you would sue them for unfair dismissal and win. You need a legit reason here and someone's out of work hobbies are certainly not one of them.




They would never cite D&D as the reason they let you go.  They would try to legitimize the reason.  But, you'd know the real reason.


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## Sunglar (Feb 24, 2012)

Not ashamed at all! I am a geeky game, true and proud. I constantly post about it in social media, I blog about games, participate in activities to promote games locally (Puerto Rico) and I tell people about what I do and how much fun it is. I am lucky to have very rarely experienced a negative reactions. I had a very supportive family who encouraged my hobby and I always approach talking about games positively with non-games, describe the game in terms that are familiar to them and only invite those who ask about it to play, I don't try to "push" my game...


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## primarchone (Feb 24, 2012)

Hi!

After reading the whole thread it's interesting to see how some professions really do look "ill" at certain interests.

I can give you some insight as to things in medicine. I'm a doctor. Multiple sub specialties, board certified, the whole nine yards.

It would be an understatement to say that mentioning you play RPG's or even video games for that matter is not only frowned upon, but depending on your specialty could end your career...

Some doctors, especially the older ones (which unfortunately hold the reigns of authority, department chairs, medical directors, etc), think if your spending your free time in ANYTHING but reading medical journals or otherwise improving your knowledge base you are not committed to medicine and are thus a bad professional.

When your training it is perhaps worse. Some training programs (especially hierarchical surgical related ones), such a revelation may put you on the receiving end of being cut out, or worse not being able to get a positive recommendation for future training or license applications, which can pretty much end you before you even start.

Heck, even the patient-doctor relationship can be jeopardized if in candid conversation you let slip you like slaying dragons in your spare time. Patients don't seem to be able to jive that I can play at being a pretend elf and diagnose your serious illness competently.

Its not hard to see why I would not only hide it, but also actively deny I would play RPG's.

Granted with time, as younger people get into medicine and the authoritarian approach lessens, to my delight I have found fellow docs who "know how to cast spells". But there is still a long way to go before you can be open about it.

I'm pretty sure none of this is surprising to many of you, but I'll share something I found surprising to me.

Through the years, like many of you, I've gone to conventions, hanged out at the LGS and other such venues where people that share our same interests hang out.

I was kind of bummed out to find that when I was with people talking and sharing about the hobby, generally having an engaging enjoyable conversation and the discussion wanders into real life things, and I mention I am a doctor, I could see the "wall" visibly shut down the conversation. Heck, I've even had people say "your joking, right?" Incredulous that a doctor could play RPG's.

Of course that is not everyone, I would say probably not even most of them. But I found it ironic that some of my medical colleagues would "shun" me for playing such a game and at the same time someone whom plays RPG's would find it awkward to talk to me about RPG's because of my profession.

I admit I find the irony pretty funny. 

Primarchone


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## Aeolius (Feb 24, 2012)

primarchone said:


> But I found it ironic that some of my medical colleagues would "shun" me for playing such a game and at the same time someone whom plays RPG's would find it awkward to talk to me about RPG's because of my profession.




So, no rolling for Cure Serious Wounds in the middle of surgery, then? Gotcha.


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## primarchone (Feb 24, 2012)

Aeolius said:


> So, no rolling for Cure Serious Wounds in the middle of surgery, then? Gotcha.




Hi!

Alas no. 

That probably explains why my circle of friends does not include a single doctor. They just wouldn't get how funny your comment is! 

Primarchone


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

> It would be an understatement to say that mentioning you play RPG's or even video games for that matter is not only frowned upon, but depending on your specialty could end your career...




It wasn't always that way.  One of my Dad's co-workers- another MD in the Army hospital at Ft. Riley, but not one of his buddies- was actually the designer of a game back in the early 1980s.  And it wasn't a secret.

Upon further reflection, though, it could also be more a reflection of the military culture being more acceptable of the hobby than the general populace, even among the medical staff.


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## primarchone (Feb 24, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> It wasn't always that way.  One of my Dad's co-workers- another MD in the Army hospital at Ft. Riley, but not one of his buddies- was actually the designer of a game back in the early 1980s.  And it wasn't a secret.
> 
> Upon further reflection, though, it could also be more a reflection of the military culture being more acceptable of the hobby than the general populace, even among the medical staff.




Hi!

I completely agree with you about the armed forces being more accepting. I was in the naval reserve during med school (the navy in fact paid for my schooling and I would go on active duty every summer), and I was very happy with the large amount of people in the military that not only new about D&D, but played. Doctors, nurses and everything in between.

I have often wondered why the military was more open to RPG's than civilian society. I still can't come up with a reasonable theory, but I'm glad it is that way. 

Primarchone


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

> I have often wondered why the military was more open to RPG's than civilian society. I still can't come up with a reasonable theory, but I'm glad it is that way.




Pet theory: it's the foundation RPGs have in war gaming.  IOW, they started it!


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## Argyle King (Feb 24, 2012)

I am not at all ashamed.  I've had discussions about games with fellow gamers in public places.  Gaming is a part of my life in much the same way other people watch football on a Sunday; play poker, or participate in other hobbies.  


As others have said, when I was active duty military, I found that a fair amount of soldiers are gamers -or are at least open to the idea of gaming.  The first campaign I ever played in was actually a Rifts campaign which took place during time I spent in Serbia on a UN mission.


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## Sunseeker (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm more like the first two you mentioned.  I don't openly talk about my gaming, much less any of my nerddom unless someone brings it up first or catches some reference I might have tossed out.  I'm not ashamed of it persay, I'm just aware people don't think highly of it and most people just don't "get it", so it's not worth the trouble of answering the inevitable "Sounds dumb, why don't you go out and get a job/party/drink/get laid like a normal person?"


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## Vegepygmy (Feb 24, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> If it was found that I play rpgs, I'd be out of a job and lose my reputation over it, so I keep my mouth shut and let my coworkers know I live a boring life with my wife.



Man, that sucks. I work for a District Attorney who happened to mention during my job interview that he was a D&D player. Now my Wednesday night group plays on the conference table in our office!

(And I don't shout it in anybody's face, but I certainly don't try to hide the fact that I'm a gamer.)


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## Water Bob (Feb 24, 2012)

primarchone said:


> After reading the whole thread it's interesting to see how some professions really do look "ill" at certain interests.
> 
> I can give you some insight as to things in medicine. I'm a doctor.




Yep.  And, I think our professions also influence much of the company we keep.  From the OP, with my core group of seven, we've got a Financial Advisor (broker), an Office Manger, a Hair Salon owner, an owner of a painting company, two grocery route salesmen, and a freelance computer tech.

The one most liberal with allowing anyone to know that he games?  One of the route salesmen.

The four that actively deny it and even lie to their wives about gaming?  The broker, Officer Manger, other route salesman, and the painting company owner.

The two that don't advertise but will own it if outed?  The Hair Salon owner and the freelance computer tech.





I don't know if age has anything to do with it.  I know I was more likely to talk about it in my 20's than I am today.  I recently asked the painting company owner why he lies to his wife about gaming.  I mean, gaming is a very inexpensive hobby.  You get tons of fun for your entertainment dollar.  And, you're certainly not out doing anything that can get you into trouble as can sometimes happen at a bar or when playing pool or darts or the like.

It's good, wholesome, extremely fun, entertainment.

So the answer from my friend came, "I'm a 46 year old father of two.  My wife is going to lose respect for me if she learns that I'm gaming.  She just won't understand."

Well, there you have it.


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## Jacob Marley (Feb 24, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> I work in business as a financial analyst, so this is a big deal when I'm dealing with budgets and managing financials. To say I play video games is to invite scorn for being "lazy". The IT dorks can be into video games, because it's related to "compooters and schtuff." If it was found that I play rpgs, I'd be out of a job and lose my reputation over it, so I keep my mouth shut and let my coworkers know I live a boring life with my wife. Managing people's projects is serious business and they don't want geeks.
> 
> Even before my career got "serious", I never was really into letting people know about my geek side. Playing D&D went from being "scary and losing-your-soul" kind of game to "Haha! Loser! Move out of your mom's basement!" game so I didn't want to have to deal with that either.




Huh! I worked as a commodities analyst for a large multinational before starting my own company. My current DM is one of my former coworkers from there. No one there ever had a problem with us playing D&D so long as it wasn't on company time. All that mattered was the results we put up, not what we did outside the office.


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## kitsune9 (Feb 24, 2012)

Jacob Marley said:


> Huh! I worked as a commodities analyst for a large multinational before starting my own company. My current DM is one of my former coworkers from there. No one there ever had a problem with us playing D&D so long as it wasn't on company time. All that mattered was the results we put up, not what we did outside the office.




I found you pit traders a different breed than us financial analysts. I use to work for a hedge fund and I agree that results is really all that mattered to those guys. However, I work for doctors and manage the financials of their research projects. A good deal of them never owned a TV because they work 80 - 100 hours a week practicing, researching, and teaching. To say that they are not into anything remotely pop cultured is an understatement. However, I've been in this particular business managing the financials for scientific research for 12 years and it's been pretty much the same--no geekness allowed. 

The last company I worked at dealt with research involving the Veterans Affairs and everything we did was scrutinized and had a bajillion security checks into our life's history. If anything came up which could put a negative light about the work being done at the VA, that person was gone. My coworkers were a very bland bunch and I caught a lot of flack for just being into video games.

I know Silicon Valley finance guys in which their game companies have a double-standard. Everyone else can zip around in flip-flops, bring their dog, play video games, or decorate their office in some kind of zany fashion, but my finance buddies know there's an unspoken law that if they want to play, they will invite a great deal of scorn and eventual dismissal.

I wish I was an options trader instead, but that ship has sailed.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Feb 24, 2012)

I sort of have an unfair advantage, I suppose, since my job is completely about shouting out to the world about gaming.  Then again, I got this job by being "loud and proud" so, I suppose it worked out for the best.  

On a more serious note, I AM ashamed that some of you have to hide part of who you are for fear of losing your profession.  Hopefully, our hobby can someday gain enough mainstream acceptance that that won't be necessary anymore.


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## Moral_Crisis (Feb 24, 2012)

I've been embarrassed to be gamer as of late due to some actions by gamers at large, but not so much about myself in public... as I work at a LGS.. sooo... O_O;;

Though being a "hardcore" gamer does put me at odds with all of my fiances friends, since we're the sort of nerds of the bunch. We often "mysteriously don't get invited" to things. Good times.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

primarchone said:


> Hi!
> 
> After reading the whole thread it's interesting to see how some professions really do look "ill" at certain interests.
> 
> ...




I guess times change and not always for the better. Back when I was working in the NICU which was in early 1980 three of the unit's neonatologist played DnD. 

My DM when 3.0 came out was married to a med student and they took in residents doing their rotations and they knew she sometimes played and it didn't effect her career. Now maybe the difference was she was a woman and had a degree in Biochemistry and had several papers published on T Cell studies before she went to medical school.

One of our players was a dentist. 


I think it horrible that people are afraid that a harmless hobby could cost them their jobs. 

I think one of the reasons some people are uncomfortable talking with doctors is the whole mythos that surrounds them This whole bigger then life persona that they wrestle with life and death and are some how superior to the rest of us.  And to be honest some doctors cultivate this. Which is why we used to joke that they thought MD stood for master of divinity.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> So the answer from my friend came, "I'm a 46 year old father of two.  My wife is going to lose respect for me if she learns that I'm gaming.  She just won't understand."
> 
> Well, there you have it.




I can't even begin to wrap my head around this one. He's married they have children together and there is this huge lack of trust. That is not a healthy marriage. 

I can't imagine being married to a person who I had to hide who I was from because I would be afraid of losing their respect. I hate to say this but there is no respect there. 

Marriages built on lies are never good and man when the lie comes out which it might there is always a huge price to pay.


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## Water Bob (Feb 24, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I can't even begin to wrap my head around this one. He's married they have children together and there is this huge lack of trust. That is not a healthy marriage.




Their marriage seems very healthy to me.  I understand what he's saying.  For some reason, people who don't game look down on the time spent with the hobby.  I don't really know why gaming has such a stigma, but it does with many people.  This guy I mention is an avid football fan, poker player, and movie watcher.  He spends a ton of time with each of those interests.  His wife doesn't seem to have a problem with any of them.

It's almost as if, should it get out that he's a gamer, his wife would be embarrassed by people knowing that about him.

I completely understand where he's coming from.

And, as I said earlier, he's not the only one in my core group that won't tell their wives.  One other also lies to his wife about gaming, again telling her that he's going to play poker when we get together to game.

If I were married, I'd like to be able to tell my wife (and probably no one else) that I'm a gamer, but I might not. It depends on the person and what I think she will accept.


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 24, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Yep.  And, I think our professions also influence much of the company we keep.  From the OP, with my core group of seven, we've got a Financial Advisor (broker), an Office Manger, a Hair Salon owner, an owner of a painting company, two grocery route salesmen, and a freelance computer tech.
> 
> The one most liberal with allowing anyone to know that he games?  One of the route salesmen.
> 
> ...




What I don't understand is how they manage to hide it from their wives.  I don't think it would actually be possible for me to do that in a physical sense.  I just have too much gaming stuff to be able to hide it.

Do they not own any books and never browse any D&D gaming sites at home?  Have their wives never heard them talking about gaming with you or other gaming buddies?

Olaf the Stout


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## Water Bob (Feb 24, 2012)

Olaf the Stout said:


> What I don't understand is how they manage to hide it from their wives. I don't think it would actually be possible for me to do that in a physical sense. I just have too much gaming stuff to be able to hide it.




He has no gaming books, and no, he's never on gaming sites at home. I'm the GM, and I keep the dice he owns, and I bring it to the games. We've played at his house twice, but that was because his wife and kids were out of town seeing relatives.

When we play, he tells her that we're playing poker--which we do a lot of. We definitely play more poker than we game. Sometimes, it's 3-5 times a week, when we're keen to play.





> Do they not own any books and never browse any D&D gaming sites at home? Have their wives never heard them talking about gaming with you or other gaming buddies?




We do talk about the game on the phone, but he's usually not around his wife when we speak of such things. I'll send him a text and refer to "the game", but if she ever saw it, she'd probably assume "the game" meant poker.

One strange consequence with this guy (and the other who hides it from his wife). They know little about other RPGs. All they know is what I buy, play, and GM for them. In the distant past, when we were in our 20's (I've known most of these guys for going on 30 years or more), I'd take up a collection to buy gaming materials. Every once in a while, I'd get $20 bucks or so from everyone, and that would give me $100+ bucks to buy supplements and what not. I was allowed to keep the stuff because they figured, with all the time I put into the game as GM, I deserved it. 

So, traditionally, I'm the one with all the books. None of my players, really, ever buy anything.  Now that we're all in our 40's and have more disposable income, I usually just buy what we need without having to ask for help as I did back when I was in college working for just over minimum wage.  Even for my current Conan game, I've got three Core Rulebooks that we pass around at the game. But, I keep them at my place, though.

In fact, this gamer we're talking about gave me as a gift for this Christmas a document tote. It's a plastic crate connected to a handle and wheels like you'd see on a piece of luggage. When our game comes up (we usually don't game at my place), I'll take what we need, now that I have it, and carry or wheel the crate to the game.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Feb 24, 2012)

I have to say I'm with Elfwitch on this one.  These are not healthy relationships.

My wife is a freelance layout artist and game designer so, again, I guess I have an unfair advantage, but, really, if there is no honesty in the relationship, there is no respect.

Sorry to derail with relationship advice.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

> What I don't understand is how they manage to hide it from their wives.




Obviously, they hide it in their porn- no wife would look there for game books!

Minis & dice get nested in foam-cushioned VCR tapes with "Hot Cheerleaders from Cleveland" jackets on them.  Game books get sleeved in covers from "Playboy" or "Forum", depending on size.














In theory.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Their marriage seems very healthy to me.  I understand what he's saying.  For some reason, people who don't game look down on the time spent with the hobby.  I don't really know why gaming has such a stigma, but it does with many people.  This guy I mention is an avid football fan, poker player, and movie watcher.  He spends a ton of time with each of those interests.  His wife doesn't seem to have a problem with any of them.
> 
> It's almost as if, should it get out that he's a gamer, his wife would be embarrassed by people knowing that about him.
> 
> ...




A marriage built on lies is not healthy. It is a sham. This guy goes out and plays DnD and to do he lies to his wife. He enjoys a hobby and he can't tell his wife because he is afraid that she would lose respect.

Please tell me how any of that is healthy?

It is one thing not to tell your boss or co workers if you fear it may effect your job but to have to lie to the person you have chosen to build a life with is wrong on so many levels. 

You realize if your wife can't accept that you game or any other aspect of who you are then they don't really love you. First of all if a spouse can't accept a hobby what does that say about her. And second since you are hiding a part of you she really does not know the true you now does she. So you can't honestly say she loves you.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 24, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Their marriage seems very healthy to me.




But it is not. 

I would never ever want to be with someone, not even talking of marrying, if they would lose respect for me over my interests. I would lose respect for THEM the moment that came up and just not see them again. How could anyone ever respect a spouse who would have issues over a harmless hobby? And why would anyone make themselves less important (which is basically what happens here) to be with someone obviously not a good match?

Part of the reason my first marriage ended was that he did not want to "tolerate" the amount of time I spend with fiends in the hobby anymore, or me going to conventions on weekends. So I went for divorce. Sorry, I'm rather alone than being with someone not matching my interests.


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## Loonook (Feb 24, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Obviously, they hide it in their porn- no wife would look there for game books!
> 
> Minis & dice get nested in foam-cushioned VCR tapes with "Hot Cheerleaders from Cleveland" jackets on them.  Game books get sleeved in covers from "Playboy" or "Forum", depending on size.
> 
> In theory.




Having grown up there, I can tell you there are no Hot Cheerleaders in or near Cleveland... :'(.

Now, on this topic of unhealthy relationships and gaming: Really?  I have to enjoy everything my Significant Other does and find everything interesting that they talk about?  No... Not so much.  I've dated gamers, I've dated non-gamers, been in long-term relationships with people who are vehemently opposed and will mock my 'nerdy' hobbies... However, I also mock the silly things they do (collections, random quirks, etc.).  

Presenting a unified front is boring, and being completely associated with someone in such a manner that your entire like and dislike lists match just takes the savor out of everything.  I use roleplaying and CCGs as my 'home away from home', better than my previous habits of drinking to not feel feelings or the habits that led me into some of those relationships in the first place .

My SO could care less about what I do as long as it isn't causing a negative effect to the household.  She doesn't play guitar, she plays very different video games, we split the difference on some board games and a new interest in CCGs from her side.  I can go out and practice, play some D&D, run a game, and as long as I'm not cutting into the 'couple time' we're good to go.


Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Zelda Themelin (Feb 24, 2012)

Yes it is healthy. "Desperate Housewifes" healthy. 

More seriously, definations for good relationship vary. I prefer open ones. And since it's so much as 2 guys in group, it probably is society thing, and probably would not stay just between spouses. Hiding single harmlesss hobby that they apperently aren't so strongly invested. Only GM is. 

This is certainly weird for me, but it more likely reputation of roleplaying games have local "sickness" rather than relationships. Perhaps both, both don't know the people in questing, so judging them based on this information is plain wrong.

Anyhow hiding stuff from spouses is quite typical. Or rather not sharing everything about hobbies and intrests, it's called "growing apart", so do it so much they eventually get seperated, others are happy they can both hold some stuff only to themselves. It's often more draining to do everything together as family. Except job maybe, in worse cases even that. Most people I've known would find that very tiresome.  Balance between your own time, and family time works for both people. And if spouses are happy with their "poker" and poker times.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 24, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Now, on this topic of unhealthy relationships and gaming: Really?  I have to enjoy everything my Significant Other does and find everything interesting that they talk about?  No... Not so much.  I've dated gamers, I've dated non-gamers, been in long-term relationships with people who are vehemently opposed and will mock my 'nerdy' hobbies... However, I also mock the silly things they do (collections, random quirks, etc.).




I don't think anyone is saying a SO must find your hobbies interesting, but you shouldn't have to lie about their existence. This isn't just not bringing it up like with co-workers; this is actively lying about doing something different.

It's not to say there aren't good things in the relationship, but there are definite cracks in the foundation; what'll happen when it comes out (because it will).


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## Lwaxy (Feb 24, 2012)

Loonook said:


> I have to enjoy everything my Significant Other does and find everything interesting that they talk about?





No one claimed that. But there is a world of difference between losing respect for someone because they hate the hobby or just not caring about it. To me, even mocking someone over their hobbies or music they like etc is close enough to being disrespected that I would avoid such toxic contacts. It just brings you down to have to deal with such crap and life is too short for that. 

In a world where people are afraid to admit their interests even to their spouses, it is no wonder RPGs and some other hobbies are frowned at.


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> So, I'm curious about the rest of you.  Do you advertise you're a gamer?  Talk about it the way you would a football game to strangers?
> 
> Or, do you hide the fact that you game and hope that no one finds out that you do play?




I don't typically talk about football with strangers.  I have passtimes other than gaming, I don't frequently bring them up with people I don't know.  Some of us are just private people, and don't discuss our personal lives with strangers, in general.

Much more importantly, outside of some very specific contexts, gaming is a *lousy* choice for a smalltalk topic with strangers.  Gaming's a niche hobby, and usually the person you're talking to will know nothing about it - you've picked a topic of conversation that the other cannot participate in.  That's kinda boorish.

So, failing to bring up gaming is not necessarily about shame or embarrassment - it is about actually choosing a decent topic for conversation with someone you don't know.


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> A marriage built on lies is not healthy.




You pass judgement too quickly, with too little information. How about you leave some room for the possibility that the guy on the scene knows how to manage things better than you do, when you've heard a few mere sentences about a years-long relationship?

As described, the marriage is not "built on lies".  The marriage includes some lies.  There's a difference.  While it isn't a great thing that he feels he has to hide a harmless leisure activity from his wife, it can be okay for partners to have some privacy. 

Remember that radical honesty doesn't work either.  Humans typically require some management of information in order to get along well.  He may draw the line somewhere you or I might not.  But then, he isn't us, and his relationship isn't ours.  It is not wise for us to judge on such tiny amounts of information.


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## Piratecat (Feb 24, 2012)

Umbran said:


> Remember that radical honesty doesn't work either.



By the way, that sweater looks _great_ on you.


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## Aeolius (Feb 24, 2012)

What a strange turn this thread has taken.

By contrast, if I told my wife I was going to a poker game or to watch football at someone's house, she would call a doctor or perhaps SETI. I do not have a circle of friends that I hang out with, nor do I have the slightest interest in sports. 

She isn't a gamer, but she respects (okay,make that "tolerates") my hobbies and interests. She goes to photography gatherings and classes, I play D&D and keep saltwater aquariums. When we aren't doing that, we have seven kids and a hobby farm to tend to.

Yeah, we don't do "girls nights out" or "boys nights out" and we get to go on a date without the kids about once a year at the most, but it works. 

Now you want to talk about strange, we went to Panera Bread a few weeks back. The cashier had a TARDIS drawn on her name tag. She was taken aback when my 8-year olds, one of my 10-year olds, and my 13-year old started talking about Doctor Who. When I started discussing Jon Pertwee, she was flabbergasted.


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## Thotas (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm one of those who isn't a promoter, but I don't need to be because I'm also one of those who you can't know very well at all without knowing about that.   I've loved comics since being a kid, and people tried to discourage it, but instead I carry them around with me to this day and don't care what anyone else thinks of it.  Same with my science fiction novels, and gaming books.  If people don't say anything, I assume they aren't interested, and that's cool.  If people start asking questions out of curiosity or show interest because they're into it too, we have the conversation, and that's cool.  And the rare ones who want to slam on something they don't understand I sneer and laugh at, because they suck and I'm cool.


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## JamesonCourage (Feb 24, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> So you can't honestly say she loves you.



I am very, very close with three different women. I definitely love these women, and I think some of the habits of them are unhealthy or destructive. One often lies to me about her activities (she's terrible at hiding it... Facebook, etc.), but only because she does not wish to disappoint me. It's been that way since we've known each other.

I can reject her habits without rejecting her. I very much accept and support her. I can be disappointed when she tells me things I find unhealthy or self-destructive, or when I find out about them, but that doesn't in any way mean my love for her wanes.

In my view, the same can easily apply to the wife of Water Bob's friend. She might be disappointed, because she finds the hobby unhealthy for a 46 year old man and father of two, and that disappointment might best be sidestepped, rather than dealt with.

A "healthy" relationship can definitely include deception. It often does. Many valued parts of society favor this sort of "healthy deception", including tact, pleasantries, feigning interest, etc.

I'm no moderator, but can we please not say that someone's significant other doesn't love them based on one thing? That seems wildly inappropriate and incredibly simplistic compared to the complexity that is Love.



Umbran said:


> You pass judgement too quickly, with too little information. How about you leave some room for the possibility that the guy on the scene to know how to manage things better than you do, when you've heard a few mere sentences about a years-long relationship?
> 
> As described, the marriage is not "built on lies".  The marriage includes some lies.  There's a difference.  While it isn't a great thing that he feels he has to hide a harmless leisure activity from his wife, it can be okay for partners to have some privacy.
> 
> Remember that radical honesty doesn't work either.  Humans typically require some management of information in order to get along well.  He may draw the line somewhere you or I might not.  But then, he isn't us, and his relationship isn't ours.  It is not wise for us to judge on such tiny amounts of information.



Right on.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 24, 2012)

JamesonCourage said:


> A "healthy" relationship can definitely include deception. It often does. Many valued parts of society favor this sort of "healthy deception", including tact, pleasantries, feigning interest, etc.
> 
> I'm no moderator, but can we please not say that someone's significant other doesn't love them based on one thing? That seems wildly inappropriate and incredibly simplistic compared to the complexity that is Love.




There's a difference between tact, white lies, and blatant lying about activities being partaken.

That said, I would never say there wasn't love in the relationship, just that it wasn't healthy. It also doesn't mean that the relationship can't ever work. It's just not on solid ground, in my mind, and it means those involved may be looking at a lot of work to repair it should the deceptions ever come to light.


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## thedungeondelver (Feb 24, 2012)

To the OP:

I'm 42 years old, I've got two kids, a car payment and a mortgage.  I don't go out drinking and whoring around on Friday nights, I don't go blow half my wife's paycheck at the dog track, and I don't throw everyone out of the house so I can watch football all Sunday from September to January and baseball all Saturday from March to September.  I run three miles a day, I cook, I chauffeur the kids around and I look after my mom when I can.

I do not give a mother __ what people think about the fact that once a week I pretend to be an elf.  If they ask me what I do to unwind, I tell them.  If they give me the gimlet eye when I do,  'em.  *They asked*.  Next Great Outdoorsman or Sportsman you meet tells you that he golfs or plays basketball for a few hours every Saturday, ask them if their spouse and children come along and join in too.

Yeah.

Now get off my lawn.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7X2_V60YK8]Get off my lawn - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

That is a lot of smileyfacin'.


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## BriarMonkey (Feb 24, 2012)

I have to say I am not ashamed, nor harbor any fears or other daemons where my hobbies are concerned.  While I don't go running on and on at random about my gaming, if asked I'm open about it and share my enjoyment of the hobby with others.

Then too, I also enjoy cooking and consider myself a neophyte oenophile, so if asked, there too I'll share about those endevours.

Gaming is like any other hobby, some people get it, some don't.

To think that there is some shame attached, I think, speaks more to the individual than to the hobby.  Some people are very cloistered when it comes to things that matter to them, and they are uncomfortable talking to others about it.  It really is no different if you are talking gaming or taxidermy or if you are a closet blacksmith.


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## Nymie_the_Pooh (Feb 24, 2012)

I have been reading the forums on and off for years but wanted to register to weigh in on the main topic.

I would love to say I am not ashamed of being a gamer, but I have evidence to the contrary.  If I happen to find other gamers there is a general outpouring of all the gamerdom I hold inside.  Video games is a little different, but I still keep most of that to myself unless online.

I actually got to thinking about this about a month ago.  I had a visitor in my home that was here for somebody else.  This guy happened to be a police officer which I am still trying to figure out if that had any impact on what happened.  I have a couple of bookshelves in my living room with boxes of miniatures on a couple of shelves.  There was also a folding table out with the full set of Games Workshop paints and some paints from Reaper and Vallejo with a couple of Apple Barrel colours as well as two pallets and a couple dozen miniatures sitting there in various stages of being painted.

This guy was looking for a topic for small talk and piped up with, "Oh!  Do you paint miniatures?"

My immediate response was to look him in the eye and emphatically state, "No."

Yes, it was ridiculous, but it got me thinking.  Well, it got me thinking after I finished making up excuses such as telling myself I really meant, "No, but I wish I did."

As a kid, I was not allowed to read fantasy novels.  I did of course, but not where I could get caught by my parents.  My first experience with any sort of roleplaying game was selling off portions of my school lunch to save up money that my mother wouldn't know about and buying a big D&D book off a friend.  I don't remember what edition it was, but it had monks in it.  Later when I joined my first roleplay group I was disappointed that none of the rulebooks they had for AD&D 2nd edition had rules for monks which is why that point sticks in my mind.  I read that book cover to cover and even smuggled it back and forth between home and school even though I was being searched daily.

It was worse when I lived with my father for a bit.  There was quite a bit religious intolerance.  They thought they were doing what was in my best interest, but it helped encourage me to push things down farther.  I would have rather been caught alone with pornographic material or drinking the blood of a chicken in either house than be caught with a roleplaying book.  For some reason those things were a lot more acceptable and I think some of that worked its way into my subconscious into adulthood.

A few years ago I went on vacation to see my father and his father for my grandfather's ninety sixth birthday.  While there I checked out a local game store without family even though at the time I thought it was just because that was when was most convenient to do so.  I picked up a couple of things and dropped them off where I was staying.  My father comes by and stays for a bit and there is the stuff I purchased.  He kind of looks at it for a bit then gives me that look.  It took all I had not to mutter, "It's not mine.  I'm holding it for a friend."

The really weird part here is my father is a gamer of sorts.  Before I was born he would supplement his income playing chess.  He kept books on the game in his car so he could read if out somewhere.  He wasn't a professional or anything, but apparently at that time there were places in Southern California where amateurs could go to play games of chess where money was involved.  He surfed and did a lot of drugs as well which I guess balances out the weirdness factor for him.  Now he plays those Facebook games and is constantly sending me requests.  Even with that I still can't even begin to talk with him about games.

I'm not sure if I am a closet gamer or if it is an issue with hiding my gaming habits from authority figures as it has always been authority figures that the issue has come up with.  I didn't think I was the only one with this problem, but it is nice how I can be open about it even if it is as a faceless person with people I don't know.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

Umbran said:


> You pass judgement too quickly, with too little information. How about you leave some room for the possibility that the guy on the scene knows how to manage things better than you do, when you've heard a few mere sentences about a years-long relationship?
> 
> As described, the marriage is not "built on lies".  The marriage includes some lies.  There's a difference.  While it isn't a great thing that he feels he has to hide a harmless leisure activity from his wife, it can be okay for partners to have some privacy.
> 
> Remember that radical honesty doesn't work either.  Humans typically require some management of information in order to get along well.  He may draw the line somewhere you or I might not.  But then, he isn't us, and his relationship isn't ours.  It is not wise for us to judge on such tiny amounts of information.




No I don't pass judgement to quickly. I have lived this and I know what it does to a marriage when there are lies.

I am not talking about brutal total honesty. I am talking about choosing to lie on a regular basis.

The OP says they get together 3 to 5 times a week to play either poker or DnD so they are lying to their wives every week.

If they feel that they can't be honest to their wives about a hobby and choose to take the easy way out and lie about it on a regular basis it makes you wonder what else they feel the need to lie about.

And lying about it is an easy way out. Marriage takes work and open communication as well as accepting your spouse for their good things and their flaws. 

First they are not giving their wives a chance to be accepting they are just choosing to lie not to rock the boat.

And if their wives would be angry about this and stop respecting them then I have to wonder just how good a marriage this is that a simple hobby would make a wife stop respecting her husband. 

One of the biggest mistakes people make when they start dating someone is to try and hide anything that might be a turn off. And while yes you should  put your best foot forward, if the relationship is going to grow deeper it means sharing yourself with that person. And if you share and they can't accept you for the entire person you are then that is a huge neon flashing sign that you don't belong together no matter how much you love each other. 


I can tell you from experience that once you find out that someone has been lying to you and to does not matter if it is a spouse, friend, boss, coworker or child you start wondering what else they have been lying about and you find it hard to trust them.


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## Piratecat (Feb 24, 2012)

I'd like to ask that we don't send this thread off on a major tangent, please.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

JamesonCourage said:


> I am very, very close with three different women. I definitely love these women, and I think some of the habits of them are unhealthy or destructive. One often lies to me about her activities (she's terrible at hiding it... Facebook, etc.), but only because she does not wish to disappoint me. It's been that way since we've known each other.
> 
> I can reject her habits without rejecting her. I very much accept and support her. I can be disappointed when she tells me things I find unhealthy or self-destructive, or when I find out about them, but that doesn't in any way mean my love for her wanes.
> 
> ...




When I said that they don't love that person what I meant was this. They love an idealized version of that person not the person as they really are. 

In your case you love a woman who has some issues  she does destructive things and then lies to you to hide it. You know this about her and yet you still love her. 

I don't see anything inappropriate about saying what you think on a subject someone else has brought up. And you betcha I know love is not simplistic not by a long shot. Which is why I find it incredible that someone would really be so scared that they would lose their wives respect over playing DnD.

It is not like he is hiding being addicted to porn, drugs, gambling or another woman. 

I was talking to a a friend of mine today who has been a marriage councilor for about 34 years and I asked his opinion on this. I am babysitting their dog this weekend so they took me to lunch as a thank you and I was curious what he would say about it. 

And what he said was that while little white lies can be necessary in marriage out right lying and on a regular basis can do a lot of harm. First of  all the person who feels forced to lie (even if this is not really true) is going to carry guilt over it. Guilt can lead to resentment which can manifest in other areas. Now if that happens and it manifests in other areas it can't be dealt with because the real reason of the resentment the lie is not being dealt with. 

The spouse lying can also begin to resent the person they are lying to for making them feel they have to lie. IE losing respect if their wife found out. 

He also pointed out the very real danger if the wife finds out. That the fact that they have been lied to can lead to a lost of faith and trust in that person. 

He said that everyone wants to look good in the eyes pf the person they love. But lying to accomplish that puts doubt in the mind of the person lying. My wife says she loves me and respects me but if she found out this about me she would stop. This can lead to self doubt about that love and just how strong it really is. 

In his long practice he has seen many marriages survive and grow stronger after a secret has come out and some of these secrets have been far worse than playing DnD. He has also seen marriages destroyed by secrets.  The ones that didn't make it usually had far more cracks and things wrong with it then just the secret. 

The secret to a long healthy marriage is in his opinion is open communication, loving the whole person not an idolized version of them,  and trust.


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## Water Bob (Feb 24, 2012)

Umbran said:


> You pass judgement too quickly, with too little information. How about you leave some room for the possibility that the guy on the scene knows how to manage things better than you do, when you've heard a few mere sentences about a years-long relationship?




Thank you.  I was about to say something similar, but I didn't want to fire this aspect of the disucssion.





Elf Witch said:


> No I don't pass judgement to quickly. I have lived this and I know what it does to a marriage when there are lies.




With regard to my friend (really, both friends--there are two in my gaming group who don't tell their wives and lie about playing), you haven't got a clue about their situation.

For example, you don't know that, when they first got married, he did tell his wife he gamed and was in the open about it for a while.  Then, when he started having kids, he stopped gaming for some years.  It was then, when she thought it was over, that his wife told him what she thought of his geeky gaming.  She said he was a father now and needed to "grow up" a bit.  Right or wrong, he agreed.  Years past.  He heard stories from our games and wanted to play.

So, that's how he got to where he is today.

My other friend, that lies to his wife, is on his second wife.  He told his first wife that he gamed, and she would take opportunities to make fun of him and his gaming in front of company and what not.  His other friends, besides me (all jock types he's known since high school), would crack jokes here an there--especially if they found some media that made fun of gamers (like you'll see in TV sitcoms sometimes).

So, when he got re-married, he vowed that this one would never know that he's a gamer.  He got burned the first time around, and he basically thinks he's protecting himself.

As for me and one other in my group, we probably wouldn't tell SO's.  I have, and he has, in the past.  I lived with this chick for several years, and she knew, but I could always tell it was an aspect of me that she didn't respect.  She sure has heck wouldn't tell her friends about it.

The other friend like me was teased by his ex-wife when they were married.  "Going off to play your geeky game?"  She'd say when he left for a session.  And, "Did you kill any DRAAAGGGONNNS?" she'd remark when he returned.

Behavior and experiences like that do not encourage telling the world about being a gamer.

Here, I've written just a tid bit about these peoples' lives, but it's enough to show you that you have no clue about them and their relationships--and that includes the others that have piped in with comments about my friend's marriage.







Piratecat said:


> I'd like to ask that we don't send this thread off on a major tangent, please.




Yes, please.


----------



## Elf Witch (Feb 24, 2012)

I have a question to those of you who feel the need to hide your gaming.

If you are ashamed or embarrassed why do you still play? I am a little confused why you would want a hobby that makes you feel this way.

Is it really shame or more the desire not to deal with other people's issues about it?


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## Elf Witch (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Thank you.  I was about to say something similar, but I didn't want to fire this aspect of the disucssion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As long as people continue to hide the hobby and worry what other people think then gaming will always have the stigma that there is something wrong with it.

I have been playing since the game came out and far more people are accepting about it today then they were back then. I have not encounter for a long time  people who still think the game is an occult device to lure in people to corrupted their souls.

A lot of hobbies get poked fun at in the media for laughs and it is just laughs. The whole Get a Life meme from Star Trek is one of them. Yet their are a lot of people who freely admit to being a Trekkie.  NASA was filled with people who became interested in space and working in that field because of watching Trek.

There will always be people who make fun of something they don't understand or judge people badly because of it. Hiding it just gives fuel that they are right and there is something wrong with it.

I cannot imagine being involved with a person who would taunt me because of my hobby or look down on me. I could not live with a person who treated me like that it would in my case destroy any love I felt for the person. 

I am not sure why you brought this topic up and then shared what your buddies do. Did you not think people might have opinions on it and those opinions might be of the this totally messed up kind. Or were you hoping for validation?


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## FickleGM (Feb 25, 2012)

I think most people in my life know I'm a gamer and they all wish they were me (EDIT: this means that I'm not ashamed).

Note to Water Bob - don't engage the side conversation and the thread will right itself.  The other posters don't know your friends and you don't need to champion their cause on a messageboard.


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## Aeolius (Feb 25, 2012)

The whole issue of hiding aspects of one's life is nearly foreign, to me. Everyone who knows me knows I am a geeky goofball who values sense of humor and sense of wonder above any label society might place on me.

Mind you, my religious views would most likely get me burned at the stake, here in NC. 

When one says "I do", it is assumed that one's individuality is not erased but rather it becomes secondary to the collective "we" that one joined in marriage. I keep secrets from the general public. I do not keep secrets from my spouse.

Back to that little thing we call a topic... I am most assuredly NOT ashamed of being a gamer. I AM ashamed I have not published any of the undersea and hag-realted materials festering in my noggin, however.


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## the Jester (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm just sayin', "I have a problem with you gaming" is a dealbreaker to me in a relationship.


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## FickleGM (Feb 25, 2012)

the Jester said:


> I'm just sayin', "I have a problem with you gaming" is a dealbreaker to me in a relationship.



Does this mean you don't love me anymore?


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## Aeolius (Feb 25, 2012)

the Jester said:


> I'm just sayin', "I have a problem with you gaming" is a dealbreaker to me in a relationship.




Granted, people change.

Before I got married, I kept reptiles and collected comics. I gave those up when I got married. I guess I had lost interest. But then I discovered saltwater aquariums and decided to give online gaming a try (married in 93, first kid born in 94, started gaming online in 95, first saltwater tank in 97).

I had always been obsessed with the sea. When one of my older brothers followed a degree in marine biology, I lost interest and started with herpetology. Later in life, I decided that I did not care what my older brothers did, so the ocean called once more. Now I would give anything to be a marine biologist.

Oh.. and I have a snake and turtle.


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## Water Bob (Feb 25, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I have a question to those of you who feel the need to hide your gaming.
> 
> If you are ashamed or embarrassed why do you still play?




Because....I love gaming.  Great gaming nights are episodes of life never forgotten.

Among my group, we still talk about some of the epic or humorous moments we've had in the past.

"Hey, remember when we were playing Dragonlance and Caramon rolled a fumble, pulled his spear backwards, and stuck Sturm in the throat?"  Ha-ha-ha- (you had to be there) ha-ha-haaaa.


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## Water Bob (Feb 25, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I am not sure why you brought this topic up and then shared what your buddies do. Did you not think people might have opinions on it and those opinions might be of the this totally messed up kind. Or were you hoping for validation?




I started it because I thought it would be an interesting topic, and I was genuinely curious how many people out there felt the way my group does.

I'm a bit shocked that there aren't more people that hide gaming in their lives, but on second look, it makes sense since those that hide it probably won't be hanging out there.

Not one person in my long-term gaming group participates on these boards.


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## Aeolius (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Among my group, we still talk about some of the epic or humorous moments we've had in the past.




On Sunday nights, I run my D&D game in an IRC channel (chat room).

On Wednesday nights, I gather in a chat room with my childhood friends. We drink, quote python, reminisce, and discuss new events.

The whole reason I started gaming online was to game again with two of my friends. Alas, work schedules and a reluctance to explore online offerings kept them from trying it out. Before I started "Into the Land of Black Ice" on AOL's RPG Forum in 95, I investigated setting up my own dial-up BBS just to run a D&D game.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Because....I love gaming.  Great gaming nights are episodes of life never forgotten.
> 
> Among my group, we still talk about some of the epic or humorous moments we've had in the past.
> 
> "Hey, remember when we were playing Dragonlance and Caramon rolled a fumble, pulled his spear backwards, and stuck Sturm in the throat?"  Ha-ha-ha- (you had to be there) ha-ha-haaaa.




My question is this are you really ashamed of it or is just that you don't want to deal with other people who might have issues. That is two different things.

Example from my life my father best friend's sister broke her neck riding horses so my father forbid me to have anything do with horses.

When I became an adult I not only owned a horse but I barrel raced and risked my hide being a clown during bull riding and bronco riding. 

My father never knew about it. I broached the subject once and he got really upset. So I chose not to share that aspect of my life with him. 

But I was never ashamed of what I was doing.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> I started it because I thought it would be an interesting topic, and I was genuinely curious how many people out there felt the way my group does.
> 
> I'm a bit shocked that there aren't more people that hide gaming in their lives, but on second look, it makes sense since those that hide it probably won't be hanging out there.
> 
> Not one person in my long-term gaming group participates on these boards.




It is an interesting topic.

But you do realize that when you share things on the internet even personal things people are going to have an opinion and even say things that you may not like.

I don't get the cries for moderation. 

Granted it is one reason I often leave EnWorld for long stretches of time. And why I prefer less moderated sites because I think at times EnWorld moderators use to heavy a hand at it just to keep the peace.


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## the Jester (Feb 25, 2012)

FickleGM said:


> Does this mean you don't love me anymore?




Do you have a problem with me gaming? 

N.B. Just got my first girlfriend in many years. She isn't a gamer, but she is absolutely cool with it- she's actually coming to hang out at my place this weekend while we play Mage. She's got hobbies of her own she can indulge while we play; we've already discussed the whole thing so she understands that she cannot be a major distraction and that we'll be gaming for hour upon hour. 

I have to admit that I secretly hope that she'll end up deciding she's interested in trying it out!


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 25, 2012)

As much as my wife is so not in to gaming, and teases me about it from time to time, I know that it is most definitely good natured ribbing, not a lack of respect for me.  For example, several of her friends know that I play D&D, so she isn't ashamed of me for it.

We also play at our house each fortnight.  She doesn't exactly hang out with me and the guys while the game is on (and it would be a little odd if she did hang around but not play), but she makes polite conversation with them before we start, much like I do when she has some of her friends over.

I don't know if I could stay married to her if she didn't respect me for one of my hobbies to the point of telling me to stop doing it completely (providing of course that hobby wasn't something Dexter-like or similar! ).

Olaf the Stout


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## Water Bob (Feb 25, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> It is an interesting topic.




Thank you.



> But you do realize that when you share things on the internet even personal things people are going to have an opinion and even say things that you may not like.




I really had not feeling one way or the other about your remarks.  I'm just stating what should be obvious to you--that you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to my friend's marriage.  You're making sweeping judgements based on something a third part wrote on an internet forum.



> Granted it is one reason I often leave EnWorld for long stretches of time. And why I prefer less moderated sites because I think at times EnWorld moderators use to heavy a hand at it just to keep the peace.




Wow.  I actually think the mods here are pretty even handed and fair.  If you want to see some idiot moderators, go to the Citizens of the Imperium forum (Traveller RPG).  Those guys are ridiculous.


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## Shemeska (Feb 25, 2012)

Well it's easier to talk to your family about rolling dice and pretending to be an elf than it is to come clean that you spend Saturday mornings with your wife in front of the television watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. 

Though to be perfectly honest, it might not phase my family. They already know I'm wierd, what with the gaming, the mortal combat machine in my living room, the life-sized xenomorph in the corner of my office, etc etc


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## Water Bob (Feb 25, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> My question is this are you really ashamed of it or is just that you don't want to deal with other people who might have issues. That is two different things.




To be fair, no I'm not actually "ashamed".  That's a bit of hyperbole on my part.

But, I don't tell people or otherwise indicate to people that I'm a gamer.  And, if I'm not just flat cold busted on the matter, I will deny it or steer the conversation away from it, if at all possible.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You are right I don't know your friends marriages which is why I didn't say something like wow he should get a divorce.

But I will stand my my belief that lying in a marriage is not healthy or a good thing and that in the long run it can causes more issues than it solves. 

Sometimes I have seen threads that were really interesting get locked just because one person takes it to far. I hang out on CM and I like the ability to just talk about topics without worrying about it getting locked. So sometimes my patience wears thin and I take a break.

Though I understand that to keep EnWorld functioning they need moderators.


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## outsider (Feb 25, 2012)

Pretty much everybody knows I'm a gamer.  I discuss my hobbies freely, though I'm more likely to talk about the ones people are more likely to understand and be interested in(ie bass guitar, running).  Everybody knows I play video games, and anybody that I think would have a clue what I'm talking about knows I play D&D.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 25, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> To be fair, no I'm not actually "ashamed".  That's a bit of hyperbole on my part.
> 
> But, I don't tell people or otherwise indicate to people that I'm a gamer.  And, if I'm not just flat cold busted on the matter, I will deny it or steer the conversation away from it, if at all possible.




I am not judging you but I could not live like that. 

If my dad had ever point blank asked if I was involved with horses I would have been honest. 

As I have gotten older, I am 54, I have lost any desire to live my life by anyone else opinions. If they can't accept who I am then basically my attitude is screw them. 

I have found that life is to short to let what other people think dictate what you do.  

I do understand having to hide things that could cost you your livelihood and I am grateful I never had to worry about that.


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## Meatboy (Feb 25, 2012)

Not at all ashamed. I find being a gamer rarely comes up in conversations though. Even though I work in a very blue collar environment the majority of my coworkers are geeky in someway. Video games seems to be the biggest area for geekiness but films and TV seem to be the other area where geekiness seems to creep into things. 

My other hobby, namely martial arts, however seems to come up all the time. It seems you can't hide limps, black eyes, or gi burn on the neck very well. :S


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## the Jester (Feb 25, 2012)

Meatboy said:


> Not at all ashamed. I find being a gamer rarely comes up in conversations though.




So you're not one of THOSE gamers, then.


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## Meatboy (Feb 25, 2012)

the Jester said:


> So you're not one of THOSE gamers, then.




Nope I guess not. I find I should at least ease it into conversations instead of jumping straight into the pitfalls of linear fighters and quadratic wizards.  Being a gamer does seem to show up in some odd situations though. I was at guys house for a party one time and he was playing Skyrim and I saw that one of his custom made swords was named "Icing Death" and I made a comment about a Drizz't and then we were off to the races.


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## Dedekind (Feb 25, 2012)

It seems like we've had a thread on this before, except with a poll. But I can't find it. Anybody have better search kung-fu?


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## TanithT (Feb 25, 2012)

Shemeska said:


> Well it's easier to talk to your family about rolling dice and pretending to be an elf than it is to come clean that you spend Saturday mornings with your wife in front of the television watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.




I am cheerfully out and proud as a gamer.  I have a MUCH harder time admitting to watching My Little Pony.  

Picture my face when a fully grown man says to me, "I've been watching My Little Pony and I - mumble mumble blush - really like it.  Watch an episode with me?"  After I got done with various facial contortions of disbelief, I agreed to watch with him.  And oh my, it actually is, er, um, kind of good.  I mean, it's sort of okay.  I mean, I watch it only because Shemeska does. I would never actually enjoy something like that.  Really.

Damn you, Lauren Faust.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 25, 2012)

TanithT said:


> I am cheerfully out and proud as a gamer.  I have a MUCH harder time admitting to watching My Little Pony.




But that *is* something to be ashamed of 

 I hate that stuff with a passion, have been since I was a small kid lol


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## TanithT (Feb 25, 2012)

Umbran said:


> As described, the marriage is not "built on lies".  The marriage includes some lies.  There's a difference.  While it isn't a great thing that he feels he has to hide a harmless leisure activity from his wife, it can be okay for partners to have some privacy.




Privacy and hiding/lying/dishonesty are very different things.  For me, the latter would utterly destroy my trust in the person who was supposed to be my best friend and life partner.  I personally could not live that way.  It is not my business to tell other people how to live, though.




> Remember that radical honesty doesn't work either.  Humans typically require some management of information in order to get along well.




Actually, it works incredibly well for us.  Good communication skills are a pretty excellent relationship foundation, and bad communication skills (or refusing to communicate) is fairly likely to run you into trouble sooner rather than later.  Feeling like you can't communicate or that you can't be honest with your partner is something I would personally see as a pretty serious red flag for the relationship.  Again, I couldn't live with it.  If my life partner is not my best friend whom I can be totally myself around and totally honest with, there's something majorly wrong.  

Mainstream society puts a lot of social barriers between the genders and encourages what I think are seriously dysfunctional relationship memes.  In my experience, doing a hard dump of all that nonsense from your brain and starting as best friends, gender roles irrelevant, has been an excellent foundation for a very low stress, drama-free, comfortable and happy long term relationship.

Possibly the fact that I have non neurotypical wiring is a factor.  I function on a pretty transparent WYSIWIG interface, and I don't actually understand the point of social lies, hidden agendas and "harmless" deception, especially in the context of a personal relationship.  I'm not sure I could effectively manage to do these things even if I wanted to learn how.  And I really, really don't - all the mainstream social baggage looks horribly dysfunctional to me, especially when it comes to how male-female relationships are "supposed" to be.  Yikes, do not want.  

I'm very happy to have a best friend and life partner who is as weird and geeky as me, and neither of us ever has to lie or pretend or be anything except who we are.  It makes for a very comfortable, low stress home life with lots of happy geekery.  I don't think I could personally live any other way, but of course your mileage may vary.  Not everybody is wired to want the same things in life, and that's pretty much what makes the world go round.


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## TanithT (Feb 25, 2012)

Configuring links is messy....accidental double post.


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## TanithT (Feb 25, 2012)

jorgeo said:


> I'd be more open if the word "role playing" didn't have a sexual meaning. I've had people think I'm into dressing like a furry or a french maid when I said I like "role playing games".




You mean like Peter and Lois' Roleplaying Night?  [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnFxGtm1pEQ"]Peter and Lois' Roleplaying Night[/ame]


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## TanithT (Feb 25, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> But that *is* something to be ashamed of
> 
> I hate that stuff with a passion, have been since I was a small kid lol




Oh, I get that.  The original My Little Pony was a stupid, insipid little kid's show that only appealed to people with roughly the IQ of a carrot.  If you were not an 8 year old girl, there was nothing in this show that could possibly be for you.

But what Lauren Faust did with the revamp bears absolutely no resemblance to any previous iteration, and is more like a well written anime than like a kid's cartoon.  I didn't believe it either, and then I watched.  

I am about the last frickin' person in the world you could imagine would find anything to enjoy in a little girl's show.  At the Raleigh Bronies' Meetup, I was commiserating with some large and burly Marines who felt the same way.  

"Yeah, if you'd have told me last year that I would be enjoying a show where a magic unicorn was singing about making dresses, I'd have punched you in the face."   Stories were exchanged about the other Marines in his unit initially threatening violence and throwing things at him, then shamefacedly coming back to watch more episodes.  I think he had his whole platoon converted by the end of his tour.  

There actually is a lot more to this show than you would think upon hearing about it, which is why adult men are now the single largest MLP viewing demographic.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 25, 2012)

LOL Interesting, but I still couldn't watch it, I hate the appearance of those things to begin with  Not a fan of anime either but it is good that the old version died out, definitely.


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## KJSEvans (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm a teacher and it's actually one of my goals in life to start a "gaming club" at school, as I feel it will help improve math, reading and writing scores. So I guess you could say that I'm not quiet about it.

All of my friends know of my hobby. Most of my friends play board games at the very least. If a work colleague asked, I'd have no trouble talking about it - point of fact, it's a source of pride that I've had a fair amount of work published for a company, and have been nominated forENnies.

Basically, as with anything in life, our friends and loved ones do NOT need to appreciate everything WE appreciate, but if they can't accept us for who we are then they probably should NOT be seen as our friends and loved ones. It doesn't matter if your hobby is gaming, extreme sports or NASCAR.


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## Ahnehnois (Feb 26, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> So, I'm curious about the rest of you.  Do you advertise you're a gamer?  Talk about it the way you would a football game to strangers?
> 
> Or, do you hide the fact that you game and hope that no one finds out that you do play?



I don't go to great efforts to conceal it, but I don't bring it up much either. I wouldn't classify it as "secret" so much as "private".

That said, there are enough things stacked against me in my professional pursuits that I do not feel the need to make it worse by advertising a hobby which is frowned upon by the average person. I don't judge myself for playing, but I expect judgment from others and I see no reason to put myself out there on this issue.


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## Water Bob (Feb 26, 2012)

KJSEvans said:


> I'm a teacher and it's actually one of my goals in life to start a "gaming club" at school, as I feel it will help improve math, reading and writing scores.




Man, I was exposed to a lot of concepts in D&D first that I would later study in school.  I learned a lot.

For example, I learned what a bell curve was because of the 1E AD&D DMG (remember it showing up on one of the early pages).  I learned a lot about probability trying to figure things like Surprise and what not (If he's a got a 1 in 6 chance...).  

And, early in my roleplaying career, I fell in love with Traveller.  I was never a major science or math guy in school, but, really, it was through that game I learned all sorts of stuff:  What a lightyear was;  What a parsec measured;  Orbital distances;  What an Astronomical Unit was; the differnt star classes....all sorts of stuff.

You start building planets with some of the rules in that game, first figuring out the planet's core, then graduating to tectonic plates, continents, oceans, ground and atmosphere composition, the world's gravitational strength based on the planet's composition, escape velocity, and so on.

Yes, I agree.  Gaming is an excellent way to teach a lot of concepts kids would otherwise disdain.







> Basically, as with anything in life, our friends and loved ones do NOT need to appreciate everything WE appreciate, but if they can't accept us for who we are then they probably should NOT be seen as our friends and loved ones.




You mean, if my mom can't accept that I'm a gamer and doesn't want to talk to her Sunday noon tea friends about her nerdy kid when all the moms are bragging on their children's accomplishments, that she shouldn't be seen as one of my loved ones?

You're telling me that I shouldn't love my mom anymore?!


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## billd91 (Feb 26, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> You mean, if my mom can't accept that I'm a gamer and doesn't want to talk to her Sunday noon tea friends about her nerdy kid when all the moms are bragging on their children's accomplishments, that she shouldn't be seen as one of my loved ones?
> 
> You're telling me that I shouldn't love my mom anymore?!




I think it's reasonable to assume that any relationship with a mom who won't accept that you're a game hobbyist has problems that should be worked on. But parental relationships are a bit different from friend or lover relationships anyway. They're less voluntary. You can't change your parents. But I have little respect for parents who can't accept their kids for who they are just because they're different from the mainstream in non-harmful ways (like affectations and hobbies, sexual orientation, etc).

But if I were in a relationship with a woman who didn't respect that I'm a gamer and she can't change that... I simply wouldn't be in that relationship. It means she doesn't respect me for who and what I am and that's a complete deal-breaker.


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## Water Bob (Feb 26, 2012)

billd91 said:


> It means she doesn't respect me for who and what I am and that's a complete deal-breaker.




Or, maybe she thinks you're a geek!  

(Take that totally in good natured jest.)


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## was (Feb 26, 2012)

Not ashamed of it, but I don't go out of my way to advertise it.


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## DMKastmaria (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm very recently divorced. Once I'm ready to start dating again, there's no way I would enter into a relationship with someone who wouldn't accept this aspect of my life. 

I've been gaming for almost 30 years. This hobby has enriched my life in numerous ways and been a constant source of enjoyment, a meaningful creative outlet, mentally stimulating and a fantastic shared experience, with friends as well as strangers. It's something I love and if you won't respect that, then I don't want a personal relationship with you, anyway. Period.

Besides, I have way too much gaming crap, to try and hide it all!


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## gamerprinter (Feb 26, 2012)

We can all agree that RPGs is a dying hobby with minimal growth.

After reading the entire thread, I'm starting to wonder, with all the people's (and I'd say majority of posters) lack of talking about the game with outsiders to game might be at the heart of why RPGs is a dying activity.

I'm sure there's other reasons, but it seems at the grass roots level is where gamers can do the most good of spreading the word and getting more people, at least knowledgeable of the existence of the hobby, if not actually playing it. This thread seems to be proving that the majority of games might not be spreading the word at all...

That can't be good for the hobby.


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## Ahnehnois (Feb 26, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> We can all agree that RPGs is a dying hobby with minimal growth.



Really? All of us? I don't know about that.



> After reading the entire thread, I'm starting to wonder, with all the people's (and I'd say majority of posters) lack of talking about the game with outsiders to game might be at the heart of why RPGs is a dying activity.
> 
> I'm sure there's other reasons, but it seems at the grass roots level is where gamers can do the most good of spreading the word and getting more people, at least knowledgeable of the existence of the hobby, if not actually playing it. This thread seems to be proving that the majority of games might not be spreading the word at all...
> 
> That can't be good for the hobby



Grass roots have been and will be the main means of spreading this time of hobby, particularly as long is it remains socially unacceptable.

But I don't know that there's a big recent shift for the worse here. D&D has catered to introverts for its entire existence, and has still grown. I think the hobby is on the rocks to some extent, but I think that's more a consequence of WoW and the MMO craze, 4e and the edition wars, and a general failure of the company that owns D&D in market leadership and advertising. I don't think the players of the game can do a whole lot about any of those things.

I think the grassroots aspect has been and will remain constant and will keep the hobby alive, though at the moment it seems to have largely abandonded the titular D&D.


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## Yora (Feb 26, 2012)

Ever seen this chart?







The important part is, that it usually never gets back down to zero. This curve is the same for virtually all products, except that you can never really tell in which phase you are currently in. RPGs in a saturation phase? Possible, and seems quite likely to me. But there's still a market for horse drawn carriages and wood fuled stoves. Not nearly as large as it was before cars and oil heating, but if it interests you, it's still very easy to get. Very few product ever disappear and if they do, it's usually because it got replaced by new technology that performs the same task more efficient. Yes, there are almost no VHS casettes anymore, but what we cared for was the movie on it, which we now get on DVD.
Lack of growth or gradual decline is no indication for something to disappear, contrary to what the business world keeps saying.


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## billd91 (Feb 26, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Or, maybe she thinks you're a geek!
> 
> (Take that totally in good natured jest.)




I'm OK with that. My wife thinks I'm a geek. Of course, she is one too.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> We can all agree that RPGs is a dying hobby with minimal growth.




Not really. It has just gone out of the (bad) press so less people who would not, due to their geekiness, discover it anyway, hear about it.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 26, 2012)

Ahnehnois said:


> Really? All of us? I don't know about that.
> 
> Grass roots have been and will be the main means of spreading this time of hobby, particularly as long is it remains socially unacceptable.
> 
> ...




Well perhaps it's arguable, but I know many with this point of view.



Yora said:


> Ever seen this chart?




If we were talking about one edition, or one RPG, I can agree, but we're talking about an industry, not just one product. 



Lwaxy said:


> Not really. It has just gone out of the (bad) press so less people who would not, due to their geekiness, discover it anyway, hear about it.




I guess my point is, being insular, can't help the growth of the game.


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## Water Bob (Feb 27, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> We can all agree that RPGs is a dying hobby with minimal growth.




I'm not sure about that.  Maybe.  I'd have to see industry sales figures.

Then again, maybe a change is needed (or maybe the industry is just fine).  Maybe someone will figure out how to make pdf and electronic products uber profitable.  Maybe a new business model is needed (off the top of my head--free product that collects advertising fees).  Maybe the bestus, neatesest, super-wow version of an online pnp gaming system will appear with a host of ready-made campaigns and adventures to play.

The Movie industry adapted to DVD sales and made that sector profitable--sometimes more profitalbe than the theatrical release.  Maybe...maybe something akin to that is in the future of our hobby.

We really don't know.

OTOH, I see at the top of this forum page an add for the Wynn Casino in Las Vegas.  That, right there, tells me that someone has figured out that gaming has an aging customer base.


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## Water Bob (Feb 27, 2012)

Yora said:


> Ever seen this chart?




I remember it well from early business classes in college.




> Lack of growth or gradual decline is no indication for something to disappear, contrary to what the business world keeps saying.




Even if it did...if gaming completely disappeared over night.  I think that most us have enough gaming material to last us until we die.  I know I do.


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## Yora (Feb 27, 2012)

That's what I mean. Even with all commercial producers going defunct, gaming is still around.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 27, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> You mean, if my mom can't accept that I'm a gamer and doesn't want to talk to her Sunday noon tea friends about her nerdy kid when all the moms are bragging on their children's accomplishments, that she shouldn't be seen as one of my loved ones?
> 
> You're telling me that I shouldn't love my mom anymore?!




That is a little extreme. 

There is a big difference between accepting and wanting to tell other people about it. My dad accepted that I dressed in medieval clothes and went to SCA events just like he accepted he that I went to Trek costumes.

I know he never told anyone I did. My step mother only found out about it after they were married when I dropped by the house in garb to pick up my cooler I had loaned my dad.. 

Not accepting is telling you that it is wrong, you should stop blah blah. 

If they don't do that then they have accepted it even if only as a lost cause.


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## Aeolius (Feb 27, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> My step mother only found out about it after they were married when I dropped by the house in garb to pick up my cooler I had loaned my dad.




You know, I was one of only a handful of students at my college that spent the entire day of Halloween in costume (SCA garb). I even took a Jack o'Lantern with me from class to class.

Mind you, I was spoiled. My first SCA event was Pennsic War, slugging down schnapps with Doglord Tantor.


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 27, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> I recently asked the painting company owner why he lies to his wife about gaming.  I mean, gaming is a very inexpensive hobby.  You get tons of fun for your entertainment dollar.  And, you're certainly not out doing anything that can get you into trouble as can sometimes happen at a bar or when playing pool or darts or the like.
> 
> It's good, wholesome, extremely fun, entertainment.
> 
> ...



See, I really don't get this.  I am quite confident that she would understand EVEN LESS if she found out he has been lying to her for years and years, for two children...  Her first thought would be, "What else has he been lying about for all these years..."  The lying would end my marriage, for sure.

I am only up to page 6 here, but in my experience, some of the gamer-shame might come from when you started gaming.  If you started in late 70's early 80's the geekiness of it got you beat up in school, or ostracized at least.  Luckily for me, I was a chameleon.  I had nerd friends, hippie/guitar-in-the-quad friends, jock friends and the cheerleaders thought I was a little cutie (in a friend kind of way).

As I got older, I learned that I didn't really have to hide it, but I didn't advertise it.  Then, even later, into my 30's and now into my 40's, I still don't advertise, but I don't make a bones about my hobbies.  I am also a raging Pittsburgh Steeler fan - since I was 6 years old when I learned about football.  

My first wife and my current wife aren't gamers but they accept it in me and I told them about it while dating - I couldn't hide something from them that I liked so much.  

Now, if a friend posted a pic of me at the D&D table on Facebook, it would bother me, since I am not the kind of Facebooker that shares every little thing about themselves.  I do like some of my privacy.   For me, Facebook is for pics of my family and daughter, saying hi to old high-school and college friends and maybe posting some work-related topical item.

My current employer doesn't know, only because I work from home, and it has never come up.  My previous employer knew because I had my wife drop off some stuff for an afterwork game, and instead of just putting it in my car, she brought it up to me.

I am, like others, though, embarrassed by some of the other gamers I have met.  Stinky, obnoxious, loud and generally socially-stunted, I don't hang out with or even like to play with these types, but they can give us a bad name. 

My game group consists of four software/IT professionals, a semi-pro race car driver, a thrash metal musician who doubles as a librarian at a major educational institution and a paramedic.  Go figure...


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## One90proof (Feb 27, 2012)

After a 20 year hiatus, I started gaming again this past November. Gamer shame (and girls) stopped me from playing when I was a teen. When I recently rediscovered my passion for RPGs I very quickly decided that I would NOT be embarrassed about my hobby or try to hide it from anyone. 

If it comes up in conversation and people ask questions, I enjoy helping them understand what RPGs are all about and encourage them to try playing one. 

When encountering closed minded people that try to belittle me for my hobby, I put on my +3 to Verbal Smackdown Wizard Hat and sarcastically humiliate them until they degrade into a puddle of tears.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

> I am, like others, though, embarrassed by some of the other gamers I have met. Stinky, obnoxious, loud and generally socially-stunted, I don't hang out with or even like to play with these types, but they can give us a bad name.




Ah, yes!  "Cat [pee] Man", as I have seen that kind of gamer called.

I don't care for them, either.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 27, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Ah, yes! "Cat [pee] Man", as I have seen that kind of gamer called.
> 
> I don't care for them, either.




I see them at Cons, never met one outside of a con though.


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## FickleGM (Feb 27, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> I see them at Cons, never met one outside of a con though.



You know what they say, "If you haven't met one, you ..." 

...wait, I'm thinking of a poker idiom.  Carry on.


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## Cor Azer (Feb 27, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> I see them at Cons, never met one outside of a con though.




You've never been to any of my FLGSs then...


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## Rel (Feb 27, 2012)

Fairly interesting topic on several levels.

I don't hide my gaming hobby much.  But I also don't talk with people about stuff in which they show no interest.  If they find out about me being a gamer (this often happens when they say "What's going on this weekend?" and I answer, "We're having our next NC Game Day.  Got a bunch of friends coming into town for that.") and seem curious then I'll hit them with the elevator pitch about what it is.  I don't tell them about my character or campaign.

I'm also a Life and Couples Coach and I don't think that being unwilling to share the nature of an activity that you're spending several hours a week doing is an indicator of a healthy relationship (that doesn't mean that the relationship doesn't have plenty of other redeeming qualities).  This goes for any number of activities but we're of course discussing gaming in this thread.  Consider:

Gamer's Statement: "I'm going to play poker with my friends."
Spouse's Response:  "I have no objection to this."

Gamer's Statement:  "I'm going to play D&D with my friends."
Spouse's Response:  "I am going to mock and ridicule you."

Now if that is truly what happens then I think that shows either a lack of understanding or lack of respect.  In the absence of a behavior that is actively harmful or objectionable (ironically, poker played for cash could easily fall into that category) it's pretty controlling to act that way about your spouse's hobbies.

On the other hand I think what may be going on in many cases is "catastrophizing".  Somebody had a bad experience one time when they told a significant other about their hobby and so they are going to keep mum about it from then on, assuming that they'll get a similar response.  We humans are really good at building these things up in our own minds and imagining that they'll be much worse than the likely outcome.

Anyhow, I'm of the opinion that marriage is a lot of work under the best of circumstances.  Adding this sort of deception would be tiring for me personally and I can't foresee advising any of my clients to do it.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

This is to no one in particular. 

Quite a few gamers (and geeks in general) are on the autism spectrum, me and most my family included. Being loud or having no social life just happens to be part of it for a lot of us. I have no social life other than gaming and a few cat related contacts. My husband is loud, and I'm sure a lot of people would consider him obnoxious, but he can't control the volume of his voice, he never could, despite years of vocal training. We have 2 players with tourette syndrome, one who constantly laughs or breaks out in song and one who keeps repeating what everyone else said over and over. My cousin who I get most of my published adventures from has a sneezing tick. Myself, I talk to myself a lot when I'm going through my notes or books and I guess that irritates some people as well. At least my husband tells me to shut up when I talk on the computer too much while preparing stuff.  None of the mentioned reads body language well or uses it correctly. 

 I don't WANT to bother with people anymore after I have been mobbed out of all my former social groups who, no doubt, didn't want to bother with anyone not like them, or probably thought I was giving them a bad name.  Society at large tends not to think about why someone is/does something differently. It doesn't need to as 'society' is always the majority. But this hurts a lot of people.

Yeah there are definitely players I wouldn't want to hang out with either (and bad hygiene definitely is one reason, including clothes smelling nicotine). But it just so happens that for plenty of spectrumites, gaming, whether RPGs or board/card games, happens to be the only opportunity or reason to meet people and, in the case of RPGs, be someone else for a while and forget a life usually full of misunderstandings and social confusion. In fact, RPGs often teach some of the social skills people have issues with. 

Now I'm not saying anyone should play with people who constantly irritate them, after all it is your precious free time we talk about (and I have removed someone from my games in the past). But maybe stop and think next time you find someone can't control his voice, or has ticks, or seems to be overbearing in body language. Sometimes talking to them helps, too, as it is not always the case that they even have the slightest clue about what is wrong. And it's not like all people you game with need to be friends in the general sense. 

On our table, at least, anyone is welcome who can be a team player and doesn't push his/her PC in the spotlight all the time and who follows the rules of the place we are gaming at.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 27, 2012)

If my spouse told me she was going to play poker with her friends - first of all, I wouldn't believe that, as such sounds fishy. Also, if she were playing poker with her friends, does that mean she's gambling our money away! I'd have far more fear and be far more upset, if I thought she was idly gambling her money away.

I think the gambling excuse is far more destructive than telling your spouse you play RPGs. I can't really get my head around the not saying so.


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## FickleGM (Feb 27, 2012)

I tried to hide my gaming from my wife, but it proved impossible when she kept asking me if her roll hit.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> I think the gambling excuse is far more destructive than telling your spouse you play RPGs. I can't really get my head around the not saying so.




But gambling is an "adult" thing, while anything just games unless palyed with the kids is seen as childish. 

Hey, maybe we need to include gambling into our games. "I bet you by ranger lasts to level 7..."


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## Rel (Feb 27, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> But gambling is an "adult" thing, while anything just games unless palyed with the kids is seen as childish.
> 
> Hey, maybe we need to include gambling into our games. "I bet you by ranger lasts to level 7..."




I took a class recently about how the brain forms new habits and about preserving brain function as we age.  Playing games is one of the best things you can do to keep your brain function agile as you get older because interactive problem solving uses more brain activity than television or reading.  Furthermore, it's important not to always engage in the same sort of problem solving (i.e. doing the crossword or Sudoku every day is fine for entertainment but you eventually lose the brain benefit).

To me, RPG's are one of the better fits for this kind of thing because you're constantly encountering different sorts of challenges and engaging different parts of your brain.  If anything we should be doing MORE of this as we "mature", not less.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah completely agreed. I think this is why more older people pop up at the local board game nights.


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 27, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> Quite a few gamers (and geeks in general) are on the autism spectrum, me and most my family included. Being loud or having no social life just happens to be part of it for a lot of us. I have no social life other than gaming and a few cat related contacts. My husband is loud, and I'm sure a lot of people would consider him obnoxious, but he can't control the volume of his voice, he never could, despite years of vocal training. We have 2 players with tourette syndrome, one who constantly laughs or breaks out in song and one who keeps repeating what everyone else said over and over. My cousin who I get most of my published adventures from has a sneezing tick. Myself, I talk to myself a lot when I'm going through my notes or books and I guess that irritates some people as well. At least my husband tells me to shut up when I talk on the computer too much while preparing stuff.  None of the mentioned reads body language well or uses it correctly.



I suppose I was talking about a different kind of person.  As a matter of fact, we are concerned that our daughter has a mild form of Asperger's, but we won't know until she ages a bit more. 

I was talking about the person that doesn't shower and doesn't care, may be smart, but acts like he/she is smarter than others.  Knowingly insults and degrades people when he/she themselves are majorly socially lacking, and when approached either gently or more directly, smugly brushes people off and then talks about them behind their back.  Smelly, obnoxious, loud and rude.

I can think of two at our FLGS that have driven out potential customers and gamers.

It is not difficult to confuse this person with one that may have an autism spectrum disorder.


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 27, 2012)

Rel said:


> I don't think that being unwilling to share the nature of an activity that you're spending several hours a week doing is an indicator of a healthy relationship....




I am confused...  I think you are saying that not sharing that you are gaming is unhealthy?  Or are you saying that being unwilling might be OK?

(I struggle with parsing multiple positives and negatives in a sentence...)


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah true, that's the type of person I remove from my games. I suppose something is mentally wrong with them but if they don't make an effort... I'm not a social worker


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## TheYeti1775 (Feb 27, 2012)

Embrassed, not in the least.

Ex-wife knows.  
Son knows.
All of my regular bartendars know. And several of them are hot.
Some of my co-workers know, at least one of my bosses does as well.
People doing background checks on me know.

There was a time in my life I worried about social stigma's anymore I just screw it, I am who I am.

I refer to my Friday nights as my geek night to any one that asks what plans I have.
After the initial "Geek Night what's that?", I just say "I go play D&D and other Role-playing Games."
It isn't  a big deal, cause honestly they aren't worth my time if they don't want to associate with me because of it.  Heck it's even started a few interesting conversations.  One of the hot bartendar's thought it was the sexual role-playing too the first time I mentioned it.


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## freeAgent (Feb 27, 2012)

I don't hide my gaming, but I don't evangelize a whole lot.  There are photos of me gaming on Facebook which all of my friends and coworkers (and boss) can see.  It doesn't really bother me and I don't understand what makes playing an RPG all that different from doing any other activity with my free time.

If someone has a problem with me gaming, that's their issue.  I introduced my girlfriend to TTRPGs, and now it's something she looks forward to it whenever my group gets together.  Honestly, playing RPGs is something I'm fairly proud of.  I might even bring it up in a job interview when asked about my interests and hobbies.  I work as a consultant, and problem-solving and analytical abilities are things they look for.  If someone disqualified me for a job based on playing an RPG, then I wouldn't be interested in working for them.


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## Rel (Feb 27, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> I am confused...  I think you are saying that not sharing that you are gaming is unhealthy?  Or are you saying that being unwilling might be OK?
> 
> (I struggle with parsing multiple positives and negatives in a sentence...)




Yeah that was a pretty crappy sentence, huh?

Hiding what you're doing = bad.  How's that?


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## gamerprinter (Feb 27, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> But gambling is an "adult" thing, while anything just games unless palyed with the kids is seen as childish.
> 
> Hey, maybe we need to include gambling into our games. "I bet you by ranger lasts to level 7..."




Well gambling away your kids college money may be an adult thing, but it's also a marriage ending thing. I think letting your spouse know about your gaming habits, might seem childish. But childish is better than the idea that your spending your family money in gambling - and not that anybody said you're gambling, but if you're playing poker and not gambling, what the heck are you doing? (Strip poker with your friends??!! That's probably worse too!)

And really is your spouse so dumb, that they don't really know what you're doing. Grow some cajones and tell your spouse the truth.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

Hehe yeah no arguing with that.

I bet any wife who learns husband just blew 10k on gabling games would prefer them to do RPGs instead


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## saskganesh (Feb 27, 2012)

When I was a teenager, I would get ridiculed and then punched for playing the game. However, that's unlikely to happen anymore, so it's no longer a factor.

Now I've never had any sort of RPG blowback at work, but then I usually talk hockey or movies or music or whatever common ground there may be. If it's that kind of workplace, I'll talk politics. Or religion. But really, RPG's are pretty far down the totem poll in terms of what to talk about.

Socially, a lot of my friends are gamers, or former gamers. Gaming will come up a bit more often.  I'm open but it still leads to misunderstandings. When I mentioned  "D&D" to an old friend, he thought it was some sort of sex kink.  That was amusing.

My brother and his wife have a different experience. He is in a profession dominated by older, conservative individuals and so he  is concerned about career impacts about being a "gamer". And both of them are worried about stupid reactions from their kid's friends' parents. So they keep a tight ship.


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## Olaf the Stout (Feb 27, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> My game group consists of four software/IT professionals, a semi-pro race car driver, a thrash metal musician who doubles as a librarian at a major educational institution and a paramedic.  Go figure...




Yeah, my current group is an economist (me), a chiropracter, a crime scene investigator, 2 Defence department employees (1 of which spends a lot of time field testing various explosives - yes his job is blowing stuff up!) and 1 uni graduate (International studies) who is likely to join the Army.

The most recent 2 former members were musicians (drummer and base guitar).  They left the group as they got jobs playing in a band on a cruise ship! 

So you never can tell what sort of people roleplay.

Olaf the Stout


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## Aeolius (Feb 27, 2012)

Olaf the Stout said:


> Yeah, my current group is an economist (me), a chiropracter, a crime scene investigator, 2 Defence department employees (1 of which spends a lot of time field testing various explosives - yes his job is blowing stuff up!) and 1 uni graduate (International studies) who is likely to join the Army.




For over four years I have been running my current chat-based game. I have often wondered if all of my players are, in fact, the same 53-year old man living in his mother's basement.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 28, 2012)

My group is almost entirely IT pros of some kind, except me and a Mr Mom who is also a math tutor.


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## Water Bob (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes, gaming is seen as childish by a lot of people.

A good analogy (that will, amazingly, be accepted by some of you, I'm sure) is to consider a 45 year old man who still collects and plays with GI Joe.  Picture a guy who comes home from work, takes out his dolls, puts them into action poses, and plays through stories in his head with the GI Joe and all the accessories.

You'd think that man to be strange, right?  Childish?

That's exactly how a majority of the people out there who don't game view us gamers.  That's why we hear things like, "When are you going to grow up?"


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## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> You'd think that man to be strange, right?  Childish?




I wouldn't. I just would not want to be involved in it or hear him talking about it


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## Aeolius (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Picture a guy who comes home from work, takes out his dolls, puts them into action poses, and plays through stories in his head with the GI Joe and all the accessories. You'd think that man to be strange, right?



Depends...


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## Roland55 (Feb 28, 2012)

Good Heavens, no!!

Why would I hide it?

At any event, I'm already a fairly total 'nerd' -- a scientist, an engineer, a mathematician.  D&D adds very little to my existing nerd-dom.

Plus, in ye olden days, I played war-games.

Oh.  And I'm old.


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## DragoonLance (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> consider a 45 year old man who still collects and plays with GI Joe...You'd think that man to be strange, right?  Childish?"




Except I've know several NCO's during my army years that did just that, and you don't tell the Sergeant Major that he's acting like a baby.   Of course grown men do just this but they call it "collecting," and leave the toys in the box, and nobody seems to have a problem with it, especially on those History channel shows where they sell them for big $.  It's all in the way the hobby is viewed.  

Sadly living in the midwest I know several gamers that hide their hobby for fear of being considered evil by their fellow church members.  One of my players is a pastor and it could potentially cost him his job if the wrong people made a big enough fuss about it.  I once made a passing comment about playing to a good friend (a pastor's wife at the time) about my hobby and she was shocked I was involved with such a thing!  Even more strange considering her son was in a punk band and she was fine with that...


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## Cor Azer (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Yes, gaming is seen as childish by a lot of people.
> 
> A good analogy (that will, amazingly, be accepted by some of you, I'm sure) is to consider a 45 year old man who still collects and plays with GI Joe.  Picture a guy who comes home from work, takes out his dolls, puts them into action poses, and plays through stories in his head with the GI Joe and all the accessories.
> 
> ...




Eh, I wouldn't consider that a particularly good analogy. Social vs asocial. Marketing targeted at kids vs wider audience.

I find better analogies in improv theatre or writing clubs.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Yes, gaming is seen as childish by a lot of people.
> 
> A good analogy (that will, amazingly, be accepted by some of you, I'm sure) is to consider a 45 year old man who still collects and plays with GI Joe.  Picture a guy who comes home from work, takes out his dolls, puts them into action poses, and plays through stories in his head with the GI Joe and all the accessories.
> 
> ...




As opposed to grown men playing with trains and trains sets? I love trains and I have gone to many a hobby store lecture on them. The majority of people there are middle age men. Model trains are not a cheap hobby and you have to have room to set them up.

I am sure there are judgmental people who feel they need to grow up and stop p,laying with toys.

Any hobby will have its detractors. I think people who are so judgmental on stuff like are the ones with the issues. The ones I met seem to lack the ability to have fun. It is like they killed their inner child and feel that being a grown up means being serious and  joyless. 

Sorry if that is what being a grown up means I would rather be considered childish.


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## Water Bob (Feb 28, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> As opposed to grown men playing with trains and trains sets?




That's a good example of something that is accepted vs. something that is not (playing "guns" with GI Joe dolls).

Men paint themselves and go games, rabid over their footballs teams.  They can quote you stats and players and game highlights from the beginning of time.  That's socially acceptible, no matter who you are.  

Other men wear Starfleet uniforms and go to conventions, rabid over their favorite TV show.  They can quote you lines and actors and episodes from the beginning of time.  That's not socially acceptible outside of the niche group interested in these things.

In my eyes, it's the same thing.  Society just looks at 'em differently.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> That's a good example of something that is accepted vs. something that is not (playing "guns" with GI Joe dolls).
> 
> Men paint themselves and go games, rabid over their footballs teams.  They can quote you stats and players and game highlights from the beginning of time.  That's socially acceptible, no matter who you are.
> 
> ...





I think you are wrong when you say society. I don't believe the stigma is as  strong as it used to be. 

I know plenty of Trekkies who have security clearances with NASA, work in the field of science who are doctors, lawyers, college professors. 

You make it sound like there is rampant discrimination and ridicule for doing those things. 

I have been a gamer since the early days as well as a Trekkie since the first days of the early cons. If I tell someone I play RPGs or that I go to Trek cons 9 out of 10 times they don't bat an eye or look at me strangely. 

Trek is part of the mainstream now. And while gaming is not as well known it is nothing like it was back in the 70s and early 80s. 

I think it  is people like you who are so afraid of being stigmatized that this kind of thing still goes on. At least part of the reason. 

If the only representatives of the hobby are the creepy gamer stereotypes then that is how people are going to associate it with.  

Over the years I have played with a dentist, IT support for Discovery Channel, investment banker, various military people, neonatalogist, teachers, college professors, payload specialist from NASA, Hugo and Nebula winning SF authors but not once a smelly cat piss guy.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

Sometimes I wonder if those judgmental people are not just jealous.

And yes, Star Trek/Star Wars is very socially accepted. My group could go out in full uniform, even LARPing in the city, and we get food for free, had to pay for no tickets and most bystanders were happy to be pulled in into whatever we were doing. Once we had a scavenger hunt going over 3 cities and a weekend, including a chase down between Klingons and Feddies in the middle of our local capital. And quite a few people asked us for help with stuff, too, because ya know, the Federation always helps 

Ah, good old times. I don't really fit into any uniforms anymore though


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 28, 2012)

OTOH, sometimes our fellow genre geeks simply don't help us out.


I remember sitting in a room full of gamers taking a dinner break from the evening's gaming when Barbara Adams made the evening news in full Trek gear as an alternate juror in part of the Whitewater debacle.

To a man, we groaned and cringed.  Even the ones who we remembers of the local Trek group (as in, they had "uniforms" of their own).

Trekkie juror - CNN


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## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

I can understand that. Being a juror is something crucial, and bringing your hobby into it kinda devaluates that 

That's the main thing for me, keeping games and fandom apart from other things. As long as someone can separate their hobby from reality, they may dress up as pokemons or play with their superman action figures however they want. When they talk to their action figures in public while wearing spandex hero costumes is where I'd probably call an ambulance 

That reminds me, when a relative wanted to get out of military service (which was mandatory here), he borrowed my uniform and props to pretend he was completely living in his own world. Worked, too


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## jbear (Feb 28, 2012)

To be quite honest I think people who sit around and watch tv should be ashamed of themselves, and their hobby.

I'm not ashamed of mine. Like anything I don't shove it down people's throats. "Hi I'm John, I'm into roleplay..."

That would be wierd.

But I actually got a bunch of people playing D&D who had never played an RPG before: a school teacher,  2 factory workers, a podiatrist, a secretary, a kung fu trainer, a physiotherapist, a real estate agent, an optimitrist, a musician, a mother of 8, a nurse and a guy who sold solar panels. And I'm an actor.

The core group that formed from that talked about our game openly in front of other friends. We talked about plenty of other stuff too. We took it as a game. A very fun,  social game that everyone was right into. But still a game. As opposed to a way of life or something that defined us as people. 

That said, I think their are plenty of people into RPGs who (unfortunately for the rest of us) deservedly give it the bad name that it wears.


----------



## DragonLancer (Feb 28, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> As opposed to grown men playing with trains and trains sets? I love trains and I have gone to many a hobby store lecture on them. The majority of people there are middle age men. Model trains are not a cheap hobby and you have to have room to set them up.
> 
> I am sure there are judgmental people who feel they need to grow up and stop p,laying with toys.
> 
> ...




Exactly. One of my favourite Lovecraft quotes covers this quite nicely.

_There are not many persons who know what wonders are opened to them in
the stories and visions of their youth; for when as children we listen
and dream, we think but half-formed thoughts, and when as men we try
to remember, we are dulled and prosaic with the poison of life. But
some of us awaken in the night with strange phantasms of enchanted
hills and gardens, of fountains that sing in the sun, of plains that
stretch down to sleeping cities of bronze and stone, and of shadowy
companies of heroes that ride caparisoned white horses along the edge
of thick forests; and then we know that world of wonder which was ours
before we were wise and unhappy.
 -- H.P.Lovecraft, "Celaphais"_



I recently bought myself one of these:







My reason for doing so was twofold. One, it's classic D&D to me and cool. Secondly, I hope that when I go out around town wearing this that maybe someone will step up and say "hey, I play D&D" and I might expand my circle of gamer friends.

It's a shame that the US seems to have this issue. The worst we get over here in the UK is the occasional prat who bangs of the shop window during the evening's game session and shouts "geeks!" And we turn round and say "yes?" which really confuses them.


----------



## nedjer (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> This is to no one in particular.
> 
> Quite a few gamers (and geeks in general) are on the autism spectrum, me and most my family included. Being loud or having no social life just happens to be part of it for a lot of us. I have no social life other than gaming and a few cat related contacts. My husband is loud, and I'm sure a lot of people would consider him obnoxious, but he can't control the volume of his voice, he never could, despite years of vocal training. We have 2 players with tourette syndrome, one who constantly laughs or breaks out in song and one who keeps repeating what everyone else said over and over. My cousin who I get most of my published adventures from has a sneezing tick. Myself, I talk to myself a lot when I'm going through my notes or books and I guess that irritates some people as well. At least my husband tells me to shut up when I talk on the computer too much while preparing stuff.  None of the mentioned reads body language well or uses it correctly.
> 
> ...




Hear what you're saying, but it gets a bit lost in the "Quite a few gamers (and geeks in general) are on the autism spectrum", which is a generalisation and (frankly scary) medicalisation of both autism and gaming.

It also doesn't seem entirely even-handed to ask for respect for everyone, only to define a sub-class of gamers on the basis of how they smell or look to you. (Long ago I knew a gameplaying geek know at large as 'squalid'. Was he a big-time soap-dodger - no, he had unusually tufty hair which made him look a touch disheveled and he was a bit short).

Returning to the medicalisation of gaming and autism - I'm afraid someone's been tugging-your chain on the medieval 'talking to yourself is the first sign of madness' cliche. The modern scientific understanding of most muttering or talking to yourself is that it's a form of auditory review and re-organisation that probably works in much the same way as tactile learning, (writing stuff down), to support the review and re-organisation of knowledge and understanding, i.e. students are told to take notes because it provides a more effective way of remember and organising.

The medieval interpretation of this rehearsal and revision is linked to the Inquisition, 'speaking in tongues' and finding ways to attack those who don't conform to authoritarian dogma.

The research I came across tentatively suggests that speaking to yourself is possibly associated with intelligent, adaptive people who are unconsciously adopting an efficient learning and coping strategy. No wonder Torquemada was after them


----------



## Aeolius (Feb 28, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> As opposed to grown men playing with trains and trains sets? I love trains and I have gone to many a hobby store lecture on them. The majority of people there are middle age men. Model trains are not a cheap hobby and you have to have room to set them up.




One of these days...





Mind you, I am no pillar of normalcy. I wear my weirdness like a badge of honor whether I am amongst family, friends, co-workers, or strangers. If I want to mingle with sheep, I have three in my back pasture


----------



## Water Bob (Feb 28, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I think you are wrong when you say society. I don't believe the stigma is as strong as it used to be.




I can see how someone with your point of view (no slight intended) would think that way.  I mean, of course the person who participates in the activities, or sympathizes with those who do, wouldn't think the stigma as strong.  Those who hide and lie, like me, obviously think the stigma is quite strong.

It probably depends on the people you know.  

I mean the guy who tattoos his body from head to toe probably doesn't think the stigma against that is as strong as it is, even in a day where tattoos are quite accepted by the public at large.







Aeolius said:


> Mind you, I am no pillar of normalcy.




"What is normal?"  - Malcom McDowell as Soran in Star Trek Generations.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

jbear said:


> ... a mother of 8 ...



And she has time to GAME?  I thought I was busy, but holy smokes!!!


----------



## theredrobedwizard (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Those who hide and lie, like me, obviously think the stigma is quite strong.
> 
> It probably depends on the people you know.




I don't think it does, really. 

I grew up in the Midwest, in the middle of the Bible Belt. In high school, I was beat up on a weekly basis for my hobbies. I currently work in a highly regulated, professionally driven industry. My fiancee's family is very religious. I had over $200 in gaming books ruined at a local bar when some friends and I were playing (a couple of 'necks came up and "accidentally" spilled their beers over the entire table).

Even with all of that in my past, I'm still an outspoken gamer. I have geeky custom license plates on my car. I show off my game room anytime someone new comes over to the apartment. I wear a D20 Stickpin on my suit at work. 

Anyone who judges me for my hobby can **** off. If they belittle me or make my life more difficult, they obviously don't want to be part of my life. I'll be happy to oblige them.


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

nedjer said:


> Hear what you're saying, but it gets a bit lost in the "Quite a few gamers (and geeks in general) are on the autism spectrum", which is a generalisation and (frankly scary) medicalisation of both autism and gaming.
> 
> 
> 
> The research I came across tentatively suggests that speaking to yourself is possibly associated with intelligent, adaptive people who are unconsciously adopting an efficient learning and coping strategy. No wonder Torquemada was after them




I don't quite get what you mean by that. It is a fact that a large percentage of geeks, including gamers, are on spectrum. Most of them never need any related medication. It is just another way of being. 

I agree on talking to youself being a good way to learn and cope, however I seem to do it too loud, which is why I get the occasional "shut up" when the others around me want their peace and quiet. Most of the time, I don't even notice I'm doing it. 

I don't care how people look btw, most of the time I won't even notice. I'm faceblind and often even forget hair or skin color (seriously) never mind what anyone was wearing unless it is a costume. I remember smells and sounds though.


----------



## freeAgent (Feb 28, 2012)

theredrobedwizard said:


> I had over $200 in gaming books ruined at a local bar when some friends and I were playing (a couple of 'necks came up and "accidentally" spilled their beers over the entire table).




Wow, that's pretty terrible.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> It is a fact that a large percentage of geeks, including gamers, are on spectrum.



What would you consider a large percentage?  I've met several hundreds of D&D/TTRPGers, Trekkie/StarWars, ComicBookers, etc in my lifetime, but only one or two would I consider to have an ASD and even then, only mildly.


----------



## theredrobedwizard (Feb 28, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> What would you consider a large percentage?  I've met several hundreds of D&D/TTRPGers, Trekkie/StarWars, ComicBookers, etc in my lifetime, but only one or two would I consider to have an ASD and even then, only mildly.




I think what the quoted poster meant was "A larger percentage of gamers are on the Autism Spectrum than the percentage of non-gamers on the Autism Spectrum.".


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

theredrobedwizard said:


> I think what the quoted poster meant was "A larger percentage of gamers are on the Autism Spectrum than the percentage of non-gamers on the Autism Spectrum.".



That's what I thought, though it didn't read that way when you look at the quote.


----------



## The Shaman (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Ashamed of being a gamer?



Only when I read some of the  that gets posted on message boards.


----------



## The Shaman (Feb 28, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> A good analogy (that will, amazingly, be accepted by some of you, I'm sure) is to consider a 45 year old man who still collects and plays with GI Joe.  Picture a guy who comes home from work, takes out his dolls, puts them into action poses, and plays through stories in his head with the GI Joe and all the accessories.



This is why you have children, 'cause no one bats an eye if you're playing action figures with your kids.


----------



## Umbran (Feb 28, 2012)

theredrobedwizard said:


> Anyone who judges me for my hobby can **** off. If they belittle me or make my life more difficult, they obviously don't want to be part of my life. I'll be happy to oblige them.




With respect, in the current economic climate, not everyone can afford to take that attitude, at least with respect to their place of work.  Obliging them means seeking a new job in a tough market.  

Given a choice between "be outspoken" and "keep up with my mortgage payments", being quiet probably seems to be a pretty solid option.


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

The groups I hang out/used to hang out with, it was probably more than  25%, talking the more serious hobbyists here (those going to conventions, marathon film nights, astronomy workshops, model train meetings, gathering monthly/weekly for trek dinners, X-phile meetups, LARPS,  creative weekends etc). 

The very first D&D group a friend and me started while still in school definitely had 4 geeks/nerds on spectrum and 2 mostly normal kids. My Star Trek group in London was completely Aspie save one family, including 2 dxed people. My recent SW club was slightly less so, it seems to be more like 4 out of 10, and strangely enough, the supposedly totally normal part of that group tends to show bullying tendencies which caused me and some others to leave. They had probably enough of us. The close Star Trek LARP/RPG group I went with a while ago definitely had 2 more people besides me on spectrum, too. The card and board game group meeting up a few times a year, at least 4 others (out of about 30).

In my online spectrum groups, many spectrumites also qualify as nerds/geeks. A poll on one site claimed that 90% of the users would consider themselves such. 

I'd consider that a big percentage.

If you read online articles (not that I agree with all of them) regarding nerds/geeks on the rise and similar stuff, you'll see they usually do not delve too deep in but grab a Trekker/gamer/computer programmer as a nerd/geek example because, according to one writer who answered my inquiry about that, those areas spectrumites are more accepted and it is often within their special interests, so it is easier to find them there.


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

theredrobedwizard said:


> I think what the quoted poster meant was "A larger percentage of gamers are on the Autism Spectrum than the percentage of non-gamers on the Autism Spectrum.".




Yeah that'd be more accurate.


----------



## nedjer (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> I don't quite get what you mean by that. It is a fact that a large percentage of geeks, including gamers, are on spectrum. Most of them never need any related medication. It is just another way of being.
> 
> I agree on talking to youself being a good way to learn and cope, however I seem to do it too loud, which is why I get the occasional "shut up" when the others around me want their peace and quiet. Most of the time, I don't even notice I'm doing it.
> 
> I don't care how people look btw, most of the time I won't even notice. I'm faceblind and often even forget hair or skin color (seriously) never mind what anyone was wearing unless it is a costume. I remember smells and sounds though.




I fully accept that's your experience and view, but the science seems to say otherwise and it sounded odd as _not _roleplaying is considered a 'marker'/ potential diagnostic for the autistic spectrum:

"Lack of imagination and creative play - such as not enjoying or taking  part in role-play games. They may also find it difficult to grapple with  abstract ideas. There may be overriding obsessions with objects,  interests or routines, which tend to interfere further with building  social relationships (this is known as stereotyped or repetitive  behaviour)."

By medicalisation I mean the process where slightly unusual, mildly eccentric, 'different' or minority behaviours are culturally re-defined in terms of medical conditions, mental health problems and the 'need' for pharmaceutical interventions. It's a tactic particularly well-known at present for attacking gay people on the grounds they're supposedly 'ill' or 'requiring medical treatment'.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> The groups I hang out/used to hang out with, it was probably more than  25%, talking the more serious hobbyists here (those going to conventions, marathon film nights, astronomy workshops, model train meetings, gathering monthly/weekly for trek dinners, X-phile meetups, LARPS,  creative weekends etc).
> 
> The very first D&D group a friend and me started while still in school definitely had 4 geeks/nerds on spectrum and 2 mostly normal kids. My Star Trek group in London was completely Aspie save one family, including 2 dxed people. My recent SW club was slightly less so, it seems to be more like 4 out of 10, and strangely enough, the supposedly totally normal part of that group tends to show bullying tendencies which caused me and some others to leave. They had probably enough of us. The close Star Trek LARP/RPG group I went with a while ago definitely had 2 more people besides me on spectrum, too. The card and board game group meeting up a few times a year, at least 4 others (out of about 30).




This may very well be your experience, I understand.  If I recall, you said you consider yourself as having an ASD.  Has it medically diagnosed, or are you guessing because you relate to the behaviors?  I am definitely not judging, like I said earlier, we are concerned our daughter might have a mild Asperger's but I wonder if you see these numbers because these are the people you gravitate towards.   I would also be careful not to casually diagnose someone with a mild ASD or PPD, when quite possibly they are just quirky.



> In my online spectrum groups, many spectrumites also qualify as nerds/geeks. A poll on one site claimed that 90% of the users would consider themselves such.
> 
> I'd consider that a big percentage.



I assume you mean that 90% of your spectrumite friends in the group consider themselves geeks/nerds.  Not the other way around, right?



> If you read online articles (not that I agree with all of them) regarding nerds/geeks on the rise and similar stuff, you'll see they usually do not delve too deep in but grab a Trekker/gamer/computer programmer as a nerd/geek example because, according to one writer who answered my inquiry about that, those areas spectrumites are more accepted and it is often within their special interests, so it is easier to find them there.




What do you mean by "delve too deep"?  I am a computer programmer and a gamer, I chat on message boards about games and I do cons. So are many of my friends.  But none of us are spectrumites, as you describe. IME, 25% would be WAAAAY off, maybe 0.5% or so, and even just maybe.



nedjer said:


> I fully accept that's your experience and view, but the science seems to say otherwise and it sounded odd as _not _roleplaying is considered a 'marker'/ potential diagnostic for the autistic spectrum:
> 
> "Lack of imagination and creative play - such as not enjoying or taking  part in role-play games. They may also find it difficult to grapple with  abstract ideas. There may be overriding obsessions with objects,  interests or routines, which tend to interfere further with building  social relationships (this is known as stereotyped or repetitive  behaviour)."
> 
> By medicalisation I mean the process where slightly unusual, mildly eccentric, 'different' or minority behaviours are culturally re-defined in terms of medical conditions, mental health problems and the 'need' for pharmaceutical interventions. It's a tactic particularly well-known at present for attacking gay people on the grounds they're supposedly 'ill' or 'requiring medical treatment'.



This has been my understanding as well.  Not that ASDs are full blown Autism. They aren't but even someone with Asperger's is considered to be relatively antisocial and has difficulty communicating.



			
				WebMD said:
			
		

> The symptoms of Asperger's syndrome vary and can range from mild to severe. Common symptoms include:
> 
> Problems with social skills: Children with Asperger's syndrome generally have difficulty interacting with others and often are awkward in social situations. They generally do not make friends easily.
> Eccentric or repetitive behaviors: Children with this condition may develop odd, repetitive movements, such as hand wringing or finger twisting.
> ...


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

Anyway, I apologize for going off topic. 

I do have a friend, though that won't tell his parents that he still play's D&D even though he's been doing it for 30 years.  His dad just gives him grief over it.


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

nedjer said:


> I fully accept that's your experience and view, but the science seems to say otherwise and it sounded odd as _not _roleplaying is considered a 'marker'/ potential diagnostic for the autistic spectrum:




That is a wrong idea the medical community held for ages. It's a institutionalized lie, as we like to call it. What those professionals define as role play, as in playing family or doctor and such when you are a child, indeed holds little interest for many spectrumites. I remember getting totally bored with it. Other sorts of role play are just done differently, as in repeated always in the same manner so this tends to be classified as OCD or other repetitive behavior. Yet other plays aren't even seen as such because they just happen in the mind. 


The problem is, until recently, as in the last decade, no one had thought to ask us what we think and feel and why we do things the way we do. There are so many misconceptions, I often can't help but laugh. But that'd go way off topic.


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> This may very well be your experience, I understand.  If I recall, you said you consider yourself as having an ASD.  Has it medically diagnosed, or are you guessing because you relate to the behaviors?  I am definitely not judging, like I said earlier, we are concerned our daughter might have a mild Asperger's but I wonder if you see these numbers because these are the people you gravitate towards.   I would also be careful not to casually diagnose someone with a mild ASD or PPD, when quite possibly they are just quirky.




I was dxed with atypical autism as a teenager, and later reclassified as AS, but the latter is not official because the institute is only allowed to DX people under 18. Bureaucracy. 



> I assume you mean that 90% of your spectrumite friends in the group consider themselves geeks/nerds.  Not the other way around, right?




Yup



> What do you mean by "delve too deep"?  I am a computer programmer and a gamer, I chat on message boards about games and I do cons. So are many of my friends.  But none of us are spectrumites, as you describe. IME, 25% would be WAAAAY off, maybe 0.5% or so, and even just maybe.




You forget that most of us pretend to be normal in daily life, and manage quite well. It is at home that we fall apart. Quite a lot of Aspies are seen as "just quirky" by the outsiders, and it is only when people get to know us better or marry us that the truth comes out. I bet some of those people you only know online or just see at work are somewhere on spectrum. We don't usually advertise it, but anytime I mention it in an online group I'm a part of for a while, I get quite a few others who dare to admit being part of the spectrum. Sometimes I actually get a flood of people messaging me, even those I'd not have suspected at all. 

What I meant is, those reporters could find spectrumites elsewhere, too, or concentrate on other aspects of their lives, but it is a lot more convenient to stick to the old examples. Aspie = computer nerd and Star Trek geek. 

There are a other reports out there of course. I keep finding articles about autistic geeks though.


----------



## theredrobedwizard (Feb 28, 2012)

Umbran said:


> With respect, in the current economic climate, not everyone can afford to take that attitude, at least with respect to their place of work.  Obliging them means seeking a new job in a tough market.
> 
> Given a choice between "be outspoken" and "keep up with my mortgage payments", being quiet probably seems to be a pretty solid option.




That makes very good sense. On the other hand, if someone above me is griefing me about my hobbies (or denying advancement based on that), I'd probably take them to HR.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> ...but the latter is not official because the institute is only allowed to DX people under 18. Bureaucracy.



That's lame.   Is it the same in the US?  I thought I read that some adults here are being DXed in their mid 20s and 30s.  Maybe I misread or misunderstood the article or study; it was a couple of years ago.



> You forget that most of us pretend to be normal in daily life, and manage quite well. It is at home that we fall apart.



I suppose this is the same for those diagnosed with depression or other similar bipolar disorders.


----------



## nedjer (Feb 28, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> That is a wrong idea the medical community held for ages. It's a institutionalized lie, as we like to call it. What those professionals define as role play, as in playing family or doctor and such when you are a child, indeed holds little interest for many spectrumites. I remember getting totally bored with it. Other sorts of role play are just done differently, as in repeated always in the same manner so this tends to be classified as OCD or other repetitive behavior. Yet other plays aren't even seen as such because they just happen in the mind.
> 
> 
> The problem is, until recently, as in the last decade, no one had thought to ask us what we think and feel and why we do things the way we do. There are so many misconceptions, I often can't help but laugh. But that'd go way off topic.




Interesting  I'm not going to deny your experience of gamers and autism - or that it's a topic shrouded in myth. At the same time there's a reasonable amount of decent science supporting the observation that young autistic kids find it hard to express themselves through some kinds of roleplaying.

Digging a little deeper, it may be expression through roleplaying rather than any 'lack' of imagination/ capacity to roleplay (as you say defined by doctors rather than autistics) that gives the results.

There's some work on using roleplaying to provide scripts, which make it easier for some autistic kids to explore social interactions more freely. Following from that, perhaps, the scripting offered by RPGs encourages more interesting as some autistic spectrum kids get older and find it helpful to work with increasingly elaborate scripts?


----------



## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> That's lame.   Is it the same in the US?  I thought I read that some adults here are being DXed in their mid 20s and 30s.  Maybe I misread or misunderstood the article or study; it was a couple of years ago.




No, US is very different. I know a 70 year old army retiree who was recently dxed. 

In the whole of Germany, there are only 3 doctors allowed to dx adults. None of them is close, and even if, I'd have a 3-5 year waiting time. That's not worth it considering I do not need an official dx for anything. For me, it is just important to know why I'm different, or, from my view, why so many others are different from me.



> I suppose this is the same for those diagnosed with depression or other similar bipolar disorders.




Yup. The time I was depressed I made extra effort to appear happy and outgoing, as I really didn't want to deal with questions or pity. That's why suicides often come as a surprise to friends and family.


----------



## Umbran (Feb 28, 2012)

theredrobedwizard said:


> That makes very good sense. On the other hand, if someone above me is griefing me about my hobbies (or denying advancement based on that), I'd probably take them to HR.




If you work in a company large enough to have "HR", maybe that's an option.  You also have to work in a company that has a culture such that such reports aren't a good way to make more trouble for yourself, rather than less.  

And, such a report isn't going to help if it isn't clearly identifiable as "he's giving me grief over my hobby."  It can very often be more general and indirect - your hobby only assists in getting you labelled a weirdo/freak or other form of moral reprobate.  And it doesn't have to be your boss - if another coworker decides to make life difficult and badmouths you, you can easily get a "name" in some companies.

It is nice when workplace conflicts are easily identified and resolved, but that's not always how they play out.


----------



## nedjer (Feb 28, 2012)

Umbran said:


> If you work in a company large enough to have "HR", maybe that's an option.  You also have to work in a company that has a culture such that such reports aren't a good way to make more trouble for yourself, rather than less.
> 
> And, such a report isn't going to help if it isn't clearly identifiable as "he's giving me grief over my hobby."  It can very often be more general and indirect - your hobby only assists in getting you labelled a weirdo/freak or other form of moral reprobate.  And it doesn't have to be your boss - if another coworker decides to make life difficult and badmouths you, you can easily get a "name" in some companies.
> 
> It is nice when workplace conflicts are easily identified and resolved, but that's not always how they play out.




Came across a group of shady bosses once and eventually put the lot out the door in tears. However, it's always going to be easier to take the third way: bullying workplace = rapidly develop the skill set required to move. Unfortunately, I didn't have that option, as one of them had chosen to make it personal


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 28, 2012)

Umbran said:


> And, such a report isn't going to help if it isn't clearly identifiable as "he's giving me grief over my hobby."  It can very often be more general and indirect - your hobby only assists in getting you labelled a weirdo/freak or other form of moral reprobate.  And it doesn't have to be your boss - if another coworker decides to make life difficult and badmouths you, you can easily get a "name" in some companies.
> 
> It is nice when workplace conflicts are easily identified and resolved, but that's not always how they play out.



My Mom's husband is a Worker's Comp lawyer (mostly Federal), and he's one of the fair/good ones -- not the shyster type.  He says that he has represented many employees that filed "hostile work environment" and/or wrongful termination lawsuits that, while successful, still made the employee uncomfortable going back.   That's the drawback to suing an employer due to another employee's behavior.  It's really hard to go back without the prying eyes and sideways glances.  It's one of the reasons sexual discrimination litigation often end with the complaining employee going elsewhere.


----------



## FickleGM (Feb 28, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> My Mom's husband is a Worker's Comp lawyer (mostly Federal), and he's one of the fair/good ones -- not the shyster type.  He says that he has represented many employees that filed "hostile work environment" and/or wrongful termination lawsuits that, while successful, still made the employee uncomfortable going back.   That's the drawback to suing an employer due to another employee's behavior.  It's really hard to go back without the prying eyes and sideways glances.  It's one of the reasons sexual discrimination litigation often end with the complaining employee going elsewhere.



Yeah, it's one thing to not be ashamed about your hobby.  It's completely another to champion it in a (to me) fairly meaningless battle.

My coworkers that are close to me know my hobbies.  No biggie.  I don't randomly bring it up in meetings, however, so not every coworker knows.

I'm also fairly good at reading who would have a negative opinion on my hobby and who wouldn't, so I don't talk about it around certain folk.  Of course, I don't go talking religion, politics, money, sex, etc. willy-nilly either.

The workplace, in my opinion, is not the place to champion causes (excepting of course, causes that directly impact your work or the business). It's a place to do the work that you are being paid to do.


----------



## gamerprinter (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't have this problem, since I'm the boss of my own shop and it's mostly a family business. I can be proactive in the revealing of my hobbies and it won't reflect back on my job. I do a ton of work for the local churches in my community, and they know what I do for my spare time and it hasn't affected my bottomline. So no issues here.


----------



## Elf Witch (Feb 29, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> Sometimes I wonder if those judgmental people are not just jealous.
> 
> And yes, Star Trek/Star Wars is very socially accepted. My group could go out in full uniform, even LARPing in the city, and we get food for free, had to pay for no tickets and most bystanders were happy to be pulled in into whatever we were doing. Once we had a scavenger hunt going over 3 cities and a weekend, including a chase down between Klingons and Feddies in the middle of our local capital. And quite a few people asked us for help with stuff, too, because ya know, the Federation always helps
> 
> Ah, good old times. I don't really fit into any uniforms anymore though




Our local Trek group was very much into doing community service. We had a reputation of being reliable so we often got calls to come and help.

We showed up in our uniforms to answer phones for PBS pledge drives, or to walk in any number of charity marathons. We did a toy for tots at the holidays and would go to nursing homes and children's hospitals to cheer them up.

Most of the people I met doing this were really nice and were interested in how we made the uniforms or props. And they were just grateful that we were willing to help.


----------



## Elf Witch (Feb 29, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> I can see how someone with your point of view (no slight intended) would think that way.  I mean, of course the person who participates in the activities, or sympathizes with those who do, wouldn't think the stigma as strong.  Those who hide and lie, like me, obviously think the stigma is quite strong.
> 
> It probably depends on the people you know.
> 
> ...




I think it also depends on how secure a person is in their own identity. If you are self conscious or need approval from other people then  you are more likely to take to heart the sneers and criticisms and even magnify how often it happens.

In my case I see people who sneer as nothing more than s not worth my time so I tend to forget about them. The people I remember are the ones who were nice. But even with that I have had more positive reactions than negative reactions.

I am not just talking about gaming but my other hobbies as well the SCA, Trek., costuming. I have many times run into a grocery store in my SCA garb on the way to an event. Yes people stare I would stare too. When people ask why I am dressed that way I tell them I am on my way to a medieval reenactment. And the most common comment I get is something along the lines of that is cool.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 29, 2012)

Umbran said:


> With respect, in the current economic climate, not everyone can afford to take that attitude, at least with respect to their place of work.  Obliging them means seeking a new job in a tough market.
> 
> Given a choice between "be outspoken" and "keep up with my mortgage payments", being quiet probably seems to be a pretty solid option.




I don't think anyone is saying to just tell your boss to eff off if he doesn't like your hobby.

I think we all understand the need to sometimes hide part of our self if is going to effect the job.

I had a job where I had to hide the fact I was Wiccan because if the boss found out I would be fired. Sure I could have fought based on religious discrimination but that would have been hard to prove since Florida is a right to work state.

As much as it made me really angry and I would have loved to do something about it the reality of the situation was I needed the job to take care of my son.   

But I think that is very different then hiding it from your spouse, friends, and family. I also think that is a more concrete fear than worrying what society at large thinks about your hobby.


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## Water Bob (Feb 29, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I think it also depends on how secure a person is in their own identity. If you are self conscious or need approval from other people then you are more likely to take to heart the sneers and criticisms and even magnify how often it happens.




Maybe, with some, that might be true. You're waaaayyy off-base with me.  With me, it's less To-hell-with-you-this-is-who-I-am and more Sun Tzu:   Why position myself that way when it may tarnish perception of me?

The to-hell-with-you bit I reserve for battles I choose to fight.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 29, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> Maybe, with some, that might be true. You're waaaayyy off-base with me.  With me, it's less To-hell-with-you-this-is-who-I-am and more Sun Tzu:   Why position myself that way when it may tarnish perception of me?
> 
> The to-hell-with-you bit I reserve for battles I choose to fight.




Whatever. I still maintain that there is a huge difference between hiding this from casual friends and acquaintances, bosses and lying to your spouse about it. 

And from reading your posts it seems like you are trying to make a case on why it is necessary to do this. 

You keep bringing up society at large making it difficult for gamers. And a lot of us are saying that it is not society at large but some members who are narrow minded jerks. 

There is a also a big difference between not going out of your way to let people know about your hobby and feeling the need to hide it away from the rest of the world.


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## Water Bob (Feb 29, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> Whatever. I still maintain that there is a huge difference between hiding this from casual friends and acquaintances, bosses and lying to your spouse about it.
> 
> And from reading your posts it seems like you are trying to make a case on why it is necessary to do this.




I've tried to make no case other than you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this topic. 

My friend and I went to see Act of Valor tonight.  I told  him about this thread on the net, and I told him how some posters insist on giving him marital advice.

He got a big laugh out of it.

So did I.


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 29, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> My friend and I went to see Act of Valor tonight.  I told  him about this thread on the net, and I told him how some posters insist on giving him marital advice.
> 
> He got a big laugh out of it.
> 
> So did I.



I am not sure who's giving marital advice.  What I see is people (including myself) saying that repeatedly, knowingly and willfully lying to your spouse is wrong.  But it sounds like you guys think that's funny.  I am sure it's a fine example for the two kids. 

_[EDIT: Forget that last part...  I suppose I made my point without an example.]_


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## Elf Witch (Feb 29, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> I've tried to make no case other than you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this topic.
> 
> My friend and I went to see Act of Valor tonight.  I told  him about this thread on the net, and I told him how some posters insist on giving him marital advice.
> 
> ...




No one is giving him martial advice since we are not talking to him and he is not posting here.

 We are saying that lying to your spouse on a regular basis regardless of why is a bad idea.

I have a low opinion of liars in general and in my personal opinion they are basically cowards who are afraid to deal with the consequences of their actions.

I do know what I am talking about when it comes to the topic of being a liar and being ashamed of your hobbies that you feel the need to lie to them to the person you are building and sharing a life with.  

Like I said it seems you have a vested interest in having your world view that you must hide gaming because of society vindicated.


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## billd91 (Feb 29, 2012)

Water Bob said:


> He got a big laugh out of it.
> 
> So did I.




Maybe he'll get really lucky and still be able to laugh about it *when* she eventually finds out. I kind of doubt it though.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 29, 2012)

I volunteer at GenCon for the ENnie awards (Audio producer) and True Dungeon (DM/year round set builder).  I wear my geek shirts into the public at large.  I converted my wife into a gamer, raised to gamer kids and our yearly family vacation is GenCon (and one of the few times we get to see our son who is now in college.)

I will tell anyone that asks about my shirts, clothing, appearance about my hobby.  If they look at me weird, that's their problem.  I grew up in the buckle of the Bible belt during the D&D is Satanic years and didn't care then.  Now that it is more mainstream (thank you WoW/Sci-Fi(SyFy) channel/BBC America, etc) I see no reason not to embrace it.  Gamers are literally crawling out of the wood work and taking up the banner in all sorts of ways.

Vin Diesel is my favorite "I can't believe he's a D&D geek" story, having his first character's name tattooed over his naval, very vocal in interviews on TV (Conan, Leno, Letterman, Colbert) and teaching Dame Judi Dench to play whilst filming the Chronicles of Riddick.  Hell, I think it's weirder to be "normal" than be a gamer these days.


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## Umbran (Feb 29, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I do know what I am talking about when it comes to the topic of being a liar and being ashamed of your hobbies that you feel the need to lie to them to the person you are building and sharing a life with.




Right.  So do other people.  Two people can know what they're talking about, but still disagree, you know.  Different people, different situations, different needs, different reactions.  No one-size-fits-all answer.


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## markanthonyquested (Feb 29, 2012)

(Hello all!  My first posting.  I recently learnt of this forum, and this topic, from a Youtuber.)

 I am quite the opposite! In my office at work, on top of my desk, I have two sets of Polyhedral dice, a giant D20 die, posters on the wall in relation to roleplaying, LARPing, being a geek, Fields of the Nephilim (Goth), Abby Scuito, Firefly, Doctor Who, etc. 

One of my former colleagues (senior staff member) told me she is a Doctor Who fan, a former RPG gamer, and a former Goth! 

I work in Public Health, which includes sexual health promotion, so﻿ we are a bit more broad-minded in my office, especially considering our line of work and the "items" we keep in our storeroom! 

I also play Gothic Rock music in my office (Fields of the Nephilim, The Eden House, Last Rites, Sisters of Mercy), etc, dress in black clothing (it's a Goth﻿ thing) and wear a large wide-brimmed black hat with Goth and Doctor Who badges on it. I am like a male version of Abby Scuito!


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## Mallus (Feb 29, 2012)

Ashamed? No. A walking advertisement for the games and the media franchises I quite enjoy? Not that, either.

I own all of one non-plain t-shirt. It does, as it so happens, have a stylized Dalek head-dome on it, along with the word "EXTERMINATE". I bought it at a local art fair. I only started wearing it outside of our house when I noticed my wife wearing it under a cardigan while we were out for dinner one recent evening.

I may bump my nerdy shirt collection up to two, though. My wife sent me a link to an Etsy seller selling a shirt w/Mr. Spock on the front and the words, "Trek Yourself Before You Wreck Yourself".

Genius, that is...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 29, 2012)

Love it!


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## Aeolius (Feb 29, 2012)

Mallus said:


> Genius, that is...



I always felt that way about:


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## Elf Witch (Mar 1, 2012)

Umbran said:


> Right.  So do other people.  Two people can know what they're talking about, but still disagree, you know.  Different people, different situations, different needs, different reactions.  No one-size-fits-all answer.




In most cases I would agree with you, but maybe I am old fashioned  I was brought up that out right lying especially to avoid consequences is wrong.

These are not little white lies like no honey that dress does make you look fat. This is out right premeditated lying and lying every week to your spouse about where you will be and what you are doing. 

I don't how things are where you are but where I am lying on a regular basis to your spouse like that is consider a bad thing to do.


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 1, 2012)

Umbran said:


> If you work in a company large enough to have "HR", maybe that's an option.  You also have to work in a company that has a culture such that such reports aren't a good way to make more trouble for yourself, rather than less.
> 
> And, such a report isn't going to help if it isn't clearly identifiable as "he's giving me grief over my hobby."  It can very often be more general and indirect - your hobby only assists in getting you labelled a weirdo/freak or other form of moral reprobate.  And it doesn't have to be your boss - if another coworker decides to make life difficult and badmouths you, you can easily get a "name" in some companies.
> 
> It is nice when workplace conflicts are easily identified and resolved, but that's not always how they play out.




Yeah, unfortunately sometimes going to HR about something like this can just make things worse (although I am not speaking from personal experience).  It may be a case of winning the battle, but losing the war.

Sometimes people that take things up with HR are deemed to be "troublemakers".  It isn't right, but that's what can happen sometimes. 

Olaf the Stout


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 1, 2012)

catsclaw227 said:


> I am not sure who's giving marital advice.  What I see is people (including myself) saying that repeatedly, knowingly and willfully lying to your spouse is wrong.




Regardless of the situation, this kind of sums up my feeling on the subject.  Yes, it is one thing to not be totally open about your hobbies in a work environment when it could cause you to possibly lose your job.  It is another thing to keep lying to your wife about your hobby, or to feel like you are in a position where you need to lie to your wife about your hobby.

I'm not referring to any specific situation or person in this thread or any other thread.  I'm just talking about in a general sense.  In my experience, that sort of behaviour generally does not lead to great outcomes in the long run.

Olaf the Stout


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## Kaodi (Apr 28, 2012)

In the future, you employer may know you are a gamer before your friends do: How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did - Forbes . Discuss.


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## SkredlitheOgre (Apr 28, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> In the future, you employer may know you are a gamer before your friends do: How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did - Forbes . Discuss.




I used to work at Target, so I am completely and utterly unsurprised by this.  But then, it doesn't really bother me, either.


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## stevelabny (Apr 28, 2012)

If I'm on the subway, or waiting in line somewhere I'm reading a comic book, or a scifi/fantasy novel or a gaming book or playing video games.  Maybe I'm wearing a geek shirt, maybe I'm not. If you ask me what my plans for the weekend are... "I'm watching Legend of Korra and Avengers and Game of Thrones and playing Assassins Creed and might have some friends over for some Small World.  I might catch some of the NFL draft and watch the WWE PPV. What are you doing? " Chances are they'll tell me that they plan to drive their demonspawn around, acknowledge the existence of godlike entities, mow their lawn, shop for new curtains, drink alcohol, or other activities that are way beneath me.  However, if they react positively to any of my answers, or I react positively to any of theirs, SUDDENLY WE HAVE CONVERSATION. 

In most of the jobs I've had, I had a few guys I could talk to about sports, a few guys I could talk to about videogames,  someone who was a wrestling fan, someone who was a low-level geek, girls who might watch the same tv or movies or books, or even that old religious jewish lady who used to sit in the desk behind mine...and watched LOST. The only way you can find this out is if you actually TALK to people. 

When you TALK to people, you find out that no matter how different you think you might be, you almost always have ONE thing in common.  

What I don't get about people who "don't talk about it" is ... how do you ever find other people who share your hobbies?  I remember reading a thread on here a few years back about some guy who kept his dirty secret and then was looking in the trash near the office copier and found someone making character sheets.  And he eventually realized that one of  his office mates played every week and because both of them were ridiculous children they had never met and became friends the entire time. 

Do you really just hope that your high school friends never die or move away? 


Personally, I literally have no tolerance for people who are ashamed of their geek hobbies. 

NONE. 

Its insulting. 

As in, once you admit to me that you lie about you hobbies for fear that someone else will think less of you,  you are giving me permission to think less of you.  And I do. And I will not associate with you.  Because you have already told me that you think poorly of me. You think I am something that should be hidden away and ashamed of.  Screw that.


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## Mr. Rage (Apr 30, 2012)

Nope. Never! I am not shy about my gamer nature whatsoever.  I don't think you should be ashamed of your hobbies and such.  So what if other people don't like them or think they are lame? That just means you know who NOT to hang out with!


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## Hal G (Apr 30, 2012)

When I was younger I was a closet gamer, from mid-twenties to mid thirties, after I started publishing gaming books and going to conventions in early 2000's I stopped caring and I embrace my "inner geekdom" and I feel so much better!

Embrace it.


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## Kzach (Apr 30, 2012)

My closest friend is ashamed of his interest in gaming. But then he also cares about what everyone around him thinks and has been raised to believe he should think and act in a certain way. Even now when he's trying to maintain a long-term relationship with his girlfriend with a view to marriage, he hides much of his real personality from her because he thinks she will see it as juvenile and unattractive.

For me, personally, I care very little about what anyone thinks of me, including my friends. I figure that if they don't accept me for who I am, then they're not really my friends. And if they're not my friends, then why should I care what they think of me?

In fact, I think too many people are too preoccupied with other people's opinions and don't focus on what really matters, ie. being a good person and contributing positively towards a better world. If you are trying to do that, then what, really, else matters?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2012)

More cowbell!


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## Dungeonosophy (Apr 30, 2012)

*Schiller on gaming*

_"Man only plays when he is in the fullest sense of the word a human being, and he is only fully a human being when he plays."_

—Friedrich Schiller, _On the Aesthetic Education of Humanity, _1794​


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