# Best Anti-Dragon Tactics



## KarinsDad (Aug 1, 2006)

What do you consider to be good anti-dragon tactics?

It occurred to me that Ray of Enfeeblement is pretty potent against Dragons at most levels (and Empowered RoE at mid to high levels). At low levels, it has a fair chance to hit and has the potential to take most of the non-breath weapon round sting out of a dragon. At higher levels, it has a 95% chance of hitting unless the Dragon has some sort of Miss Chance defensive spell in place, but typically the only defense against it is Spell Resistance.


Any other good tactics?


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## SelcSilverhand (Aug 1, 2006)

Scale Weakening from the Draconomicon. Lowers the natural armor and requires a ranged touch. 
Anything that buffs you saves vs the fear. Hero's Feast is good if you have someone that can cast it.

The best tactic against dragons though is Preparation!


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## irdeggman (Aug 1, 2006)

SelcSilverhand said:
			
		

> The best tactic against dragons though is Preparation!




that and location, location, location.

Find a place that can hinder the dragons abilties to move. A narrow ravine, heavy forest, etc. - something that prevents him from flying.


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## Canaan (Aug 1, 2006)

Preparation is key!  Our 12th level party recently massacred a Very Old Green Dragon as follows:

Wizard had cast Resist Acid, Mass on the party.  Bard bolstered our fear saves to +4 against dragon fear.

Pre-Combat:  Dragon Breathed.  We all failed our saves, but took only 23 points of damage over the spell's protection.  

First Round:  Wizard casts Assay Resistance, Quickened Manyjaws (using hero points) and Dimensional Anchor on the dragon.  Priestess of Wee Jas/Necromancer Sorcerer cast Ray of ??? (the one that effects dexterity instead of strength) on the dragon reducing his dexterity by 10 points.  Barbarian raged and charged, inflicting modest damage to the dragon.  Dragon cast suggestion on the Barbarian.  Barbarian stopped attacking.

Second Round:  Wizard delayed for Priestess/Necromancer Sorceress, who cast wall of fire around the dragon.  Wizard cast a second quickened Manyjaws (using hero points), followed by a wall of force around the dragon.  First manyjaws inflicts horrible damage on dragon (Wizard is Force Weaver from Path of Magic.  He gets +4 to each damage die on force-based spells.  Manyjaws for that Wizard does a minimum of 50 hp/round for 3 rounds per casting.)  Bard countersongs Dragon's suggestion effect.  Barbarian ineffectively bangs axe against wall of force.

Subsequent rounds:  party watches as dragon is obliterated in our bloody snowglobe of death.

That was a lot of fun!  But the DM was sad


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## shilsen (Aug 1, 2006)

Canaan said:
			
		

> Preparation is key!  Our 12th level party recently massacred a Very Old Green Dragon as follows:




I abhor the whole "Dragons should never be beaten!" line of DMing, but I have to say that the story you relate underscores that the best anti-dragon tactic is to have (a) PCs using lots of non-core material while the dragon is completely core, and (b) having a DM who runs the dragon completely ineffectually.



> Wizard had cast Resist Acid, Mass on the party.  Bard bolstered our fear saves to +4 against dragon fear.
> 
> Pre-Combat:  Dragon Breathed.  We all failed our saves, but took only 23 points of damage over the spell's protection.




So far so good.



> First Round:  Wizard casts Assay Resistance, Quickened Manyjaws (using hero points) and Dimensional Anchor on the dragon.  Priestess of Wee Jas/Necromancer Sorcerer cast Ray of ??? (the one that effects dexterity instead of strength) on the dragon reducing his dexterity by 10 points.  Barbarian raged and charged, inflicting modest damage to the dragon.  Dragon cast suggestion on the Barbarian.  Barbarian stopped attacking.




Out of all the options a Very Old Green Dragon has, the DM had it cast Suggestion ? 



> Second Round:  Wizard delayed for Priestess/Necromancer Sorceress, who cast wall of fire around the dragon.




Wall of Fire blocks line of sight for casters, so that should have incommoded the wizard.



> Wizard cast a second quickened Manyjaws (using hero points), followed by a wall of force around the dragon.




Wall of Force creates a vertical wall, not a circle. Or was this 3e and not 3.5?



> First manyjaws inflicts horrible damage on dragon (Wizard is Force Weaver from Path of Magic.  He gets +4 to each damage die on force-based spells.  Manyjaws for that Wizard does a minimum of 50 hp/round for 3 rounds per casting.)  Bard countersongs Dragon's suggestion effect.  Barbarian ineffectively bangs axe against wall of force.
> 
> Subsequent rounds:  party watches as dragon is obliterated in our bloody snowglobe of death.




How many rounds did that take? And what did the dragon do during that period?



> That was a lot of fun!  But the DM was sad




He ain't the only one. Badly run dragons make baby Jesus cry!


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## Ambrus (Aug 1, 2006)

Our party fought an old white dragon last weekend and took it down fairly easily. A heroes feast beforehand took care of the fear issue handily. Our party shaman also managed to cast a successful Nightmare on the dragon the night before which left it fatigued the following day and without it's sorcerer spells the following day. We unfortunately had to fight it in the air. The thing to remember about dragons are their weaknesses; they have terrible touch AC and their caster levels are relatively low as compared to a party caster. Have the party's wizard and cleric cast targeted dispel magic spells on the dragon ASAP to take out whatever buffs its provided itself. When dealing with a flying dragon don't underestimate the usefulness of a thrown net. Dragon are normally too big, but simply have large or even huge sized nets made to successfully entangle a huge or colossal sized dragon. Using an improperly sized for your character simply imposes a -2 penalty to the attack roll for each size of difference between you and the weapon. Since dragons are big and have low dexterity on average it'll be almost certain that you can fling even an over sized net onto a dragon without much chance of missing; you only have to get within 10 ft. of the dragon to do so. The dragon is automatically entangled in the net, which cuts its movement rate in half (important to prevent the dragon from simply flying away) and effectively lowers its Dexterity by -4 and gives it a -2 on all attack rolls. The dragon can try bursting the net as full-round action or by attacking it, but each such action is one less action the dragon will take out on you and your party. If it gets free, simply toss another net onto the dragon.

Although we didn't get around to it, our party's plan was to try and paralyze the dragon by lowering its Dex to 0. The nightmare spell lowered it by 2, the net by a further -4 and we'd hoped to top it off with a bestow curse spell or three for a final -6 (again, a touch attack). Few dragons seem to have a Dex over 10-12; chances are that the dragon was going to end up unable to move, unable to attack or free itself from the net and completely at our mercy (except for spell-like abilities though). If it had been done in the air the dragon would have plummeted to ground and taken appropriate falling damage to boot. We unfortunately killed it before the flying shaman could attempt the bestow curse spell.


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## Canaan (Aug 1, 2006)

Hey Shilsen!

The Wall of Fire blocking sight issue, wasn't an issue because the manyjaws spell appears next to the wizard who concentrates to move the manyjaws spell to a desired point in space within range.  The wall of force spell was cast around the wall of fire.  We use non-core books for the Concentration check to cast another spell while concentrating and we use Unearthed Arcana hero points to bolster rolls.

But you are right about non-core materials.

I was surprised by the suggestion spell being cast on the Barbarian as well.  But I imagine the dragon saw the barbarian as the bigger threat (he can do over 100 hp a round as a full attack.  He averages around 130 hp).

This is a high powered campaign.  It's not the type of game we typically play.  But it has been a blast!


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## bossloki (Aug 1, 2006)

If your mage has craft wondrous item and/or craft wand have him make wands or one shot items for the rest of the party.
If you know what you are going to face the Acid arrow spell is awesome. Minor damage, but it keeps damaging and only requires a ranged touch attack and ignores SR. If you hit the beast over and over with it the damage can  get get to be impressive over a very short time period.
If your DM allows it use a maximized ray of clumsiness (in the spell compendium / it works like ray of enfeeblement). Most dragons only have a ten dex and a -11 dex penalty stands a very good chance of immobilizing it. Bad point is SR can beat it.
Any effect that use touch or ranged touch attacks.
Flasks of Alchemists fire or acid.  Not much damage but you can throw a lot of them.

But the best tactic I can think of is pay an army to beat it down before you come anywhere near it.


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## KarinsDad (Aug 1, 2006)

Ok, most of the tactics listed so far assume a certain amount of ahead of time knowledge about the dragon and preparation by the party.

In my campaign, Dragons are very intelligent. At high levels, instead of a Green Dragon flying around taking whatever it wants, it does Alter Self to look like a Red Dragon. Hence, if PCs hear about it and come calling, they are prepared for the wrong fight.

Dragons also "hide their tracks" in my campaigns. Usually, the first PCs hear about a Dragon in the area is when it is roaring down on them. Many higher level Dragons fly near their lair Invisible and they also raid far from home (don't crap in my own back yard).


So let me change the question to: Given intelligent Dragons who have anti-Adventurer / anti-Army / anti-other Dragons, etc. tactics of their own, what anti-Dragon tactics do you use WITHOUT having the advantage of a lot of PC foreknowledge that today they are going to get into a fight with a Dragon?

Or in other words, what anti-Dragon tactics and/or spells does your PCs carry around with them on a daily basis?


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## shilsen (Aug 1, 2006)

Canaan said:
			
		

> Hey Shilsen!
> 
> The Wall of Fire blocking sight issue, wasn't an issue because the manyjaws spell appears next to the wizard who concentrates to move the manyjaws spell to a desired point in space within range.  The wall of force spell was cast around the wall of fire.




So did you house rule Wall of Force? It only appears as a vertical wall, so it would have been useless for holding the dragon in place.



> We use non-core books for the Concentration check to cast another spell while concentrating and we use Unearthed Arcana hero points to bolster rolls.
> 
> But you are right about non-core materials.
> 
> ...




Which is absolutely fine. I was just suggesting that if one is playing a high-powered campaign, the dragon (or anything else) needs to be powered up too.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Or in other words, what anti-Dragon tactics and/or spells does your PCs carry around with them on a daily basis?




As a player:

My Druid character normally carries Wall of Thorns - won't damage the dragon, but will probably slow him down a whole lot. He also has Resist Energy, and so would cast the appropriate one (hopefully!) at the earliest possible opportunity.

Other than that, he would probably follow his tried and true tactic of summoning animals and animal growthing them and hoping it all works out for the best 

My Sorcerer character (that campaign is currently on holiday) would just use his sorcerer spells to the best of his ability - probably dispel magics first to strip off low level dragon protective magic and acid fog to restrict the dragons mobility, followed by lots of fireballs unless it appears to be immune to fire, in which case lots of magic missiles 

In other words - if not specifically expecting a dragon, they'll make do with what they have to hand!

Cheers


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## MarkB (Aug 1, 2006)

Canaan said:
			
		

> Second Round:  Wizard delayed for Priestess/Necromancer Sorceress, who cast wall of fire around the dragon.  Wizard cast a second quickened Manyjaws (using hero points), followed by a wall of force around the dragon.  First manyjaws inflicts horrible damage on dragon (Wizard is Force Weaver from Path of Magic.  He gets +4 to each damage die on force-based spells.  Manyjaws for that Wizard does a minimum of 50 hp/round for 3 rounds per casting.)



Did the wizard have a feat or class feature allowing him to Concentrate as a move or free action? _Manyjaws_ has a duration of "Concentration, up to 3 rounds", so the moment you don't spend a standard action concentrating on it, it blinks out. The first Manyjaws shouldn't have had time to inflict a second round's damage.


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## Canaan (Aug 1, 2006)

shilsen said:
			
		

> So did you house rule Wall of Force? It only appears as a vertical wall, so it would have been useless for holding the dragon in place.




Uh, <shamefuly> I guess we all failed to notice the 3.5 change to Wall of Force last week   That would have made a BIG difference!





			
				shilsen said:
			
		

> Which is absolutely fine. I was just suggesting that if one is playing a high-powered campaign, the dragon (or anything else) needs to be powered up too.




Yeah, the DM does power up his BBEG most of the time.  This dragon just wasn't.  I suppose he was letting us off easy


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 1, 2006)

Canaan said:
			
		

> Preparation is key!  Our 12th level party recently massacred a Very Old Green Dragon as follows:




I'm tempted to make a spoof post like

"Our 12th level party recently massacred a very old green dragon as follows:

Our wizard cast an empowered fireball and had a feat which gave +3 damage per die to his fireball spells and was a member of a dragonbane prestige class which gave an extra +6 damage per die and automatically bypasses his spell resistance. We C00k3d his g00s3".

When I DM I'm very strict about what stuff from supplements I allow into the game, because of the horrible potential for mad synergies to crop up. I know that other DMs are happy to run 'anything goes' campaigns, and that is fine, but my antenna would have been wiggling at the Force Weaver as presented here - just with magic missiles alone how much damage would a force weaver do with 'empowered mm + quickened mm" each round? Would that be 91 or so points of force damage each round?

Cheers


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## The Forsaken One (Aug 1, 2006)

Wingbind, lower spellresistance, chains of vengeance and howling chains of fate make dragons cry T_T.


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## Tyler Durden (Aug 1, 2006)

As people have pointed out, dragons are really tough enemies any way you cut it, so there isn't any objectively easy way to fight them, assuming the DM has some idea of what they are doing.

That said, if you do get a chance to go on the offensive with a dragon, it's best to focus on their weaknesses, namely the low dexterity score.  Using Assay Resistance followed by Lahm's Finger Darts (BoVD) or Shivering Touch (FB), preferably with a rod of empower or something like that, can incapacitate most dragons.

Other good tactics include giving the dragon all your valuable possessions and running like hell...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 1, 2006)

Lower the dragons maneuverability: Use Tanglefoot Bags or Nets to slow it down. 
Alternatively, improve your own maneuverability - flight or speed increases might prove very useful.

Beyond that, I don't have much advice to offer.


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## darthkilmor (Aug 1, 2006)

Tyler Durden said:
			
		

> Other good tactics include giving the dragon all your valuable possessions and running like hell...




PC's: "Hey mr dragon, dont eat us, here's 4,000gp and a cool statue, we'll be by next month with more, btw thanks again for not eating us. and a cow, we'll bring a cow next time too."
Dragon: "k thx hurry up before i eat you"
<repeat 3-4 times>
PC's: "Hey mr dragon we can't give you any money this month, these other mean ol' guys beat us up and stole it <describe some of the PC's enemies they can't beat/ think could kill said dragon>"
Dragon: "well lemme go kill them and get all that phat loot!"
<one dead dragon later>
PC's looting the dragon's lair: "See, isnt this better than trying to work for money?"


or alternatively, run run run !


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## Canaan (Aug 1, 2006)

MarkB said:
			
		

> Did the wizard have a feat or class feature allowing him to Concentrate as a move or free action? _Manyjaws_ has a duration of "Concentration, up to 3 rounds", so the moment you don't spend a standard action concentrating on it, it blinks out. The first Manyjaws shouldn't have had time to inflict a second round's damage.




No.  We use a variant rule from a supplement that uses a concentration skill check to keep concentrating while casting another spell.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 1, 2006)

Let's take a peek from the POV of the dragon.

The dragon is doing well...
--If it can isolate a subset of the party.  It is physically overpowering to just 1 or 2 PCs.
--If Fear can temporarily nullify some of the party's assets.
--If it can hit an _unprotected_ group of the party with its breath weapon.  (A party with the right energy protections can just suck it up without blinking.)
--If it can unload a full attack, but not necessarily if it is going to have to eat multiple full attacks (or the equivalent) in return.
--If it can gain even a temporary state of magic superiority.  That means choosing the time and place of combat and buffing up accordingly.  That also means casting spells like Charm or Suggestion against a target while (VERY IMPORTANT) it will not face retribution form the party spellcasters.  Do not attempt to compete in a spellcasting contest with real professionals.
--If it can use its high mobility.
--If it can use its immense size and strength to snatch a party member and pull him to where he can be casually eaten.
--If it can use LOS disrupting effects to hinder the party spellcasters.
--If it can use LOS disrupting effects with Blindsense/Blindsight to gain tactical advantage 

Therefore the Party wants:
--Not let the dragon do any of the above.
--Use basic good tactics: Keep together, give the fighter/archers more full attacks than the draon, let the spellcasters do their thing.

We recently had a dragon kill.  We were fighting the Frost Giants in ye olde G2.  A big White Dragon ambushed us during our retreat from a sortie.  Caught our fighters in a Obscuring Mist and was thrashing them pretty good.  Cleric brings down the Obscuring Mist.  Bard casts Hold Monster.  Burns through the Spell Resistance.  Dragon rolls Save: 1.  Paladin does the CdG.  Scratch one dragon.


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## kerbarian (Aug 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> So let me change the question to: Given intelligent Dragons who have anti-Adventurer / anti-Army / anti-other Dragons, etc. tactics of their own, what anti-Dragon tactics do you use WITHOUT having the advantage of a lot of PC foreknowledge that today they are going to get into a fight with a Dragon?
> 
> Or in other words, what anti-Dragon tactics and/or spells does your PCs carry around with them on a daily basis?



Tactics for fighting a dragon with no preparation or warning?  Teleport away and come back later with preparation and warning 

Unless you have some reason to believe a hostile dragon is in the area, I wouldn't permanently tie up spell slots preparing for a dragon fight.

Although... I guess it doesn't hurt for a cleric to carry around a few anti-dragon spells, since he can always burn them as cures.

In that case, I'd go with Remove Fear (which can also be used pre-emptively for a +4 save bonus) and Resist Energy, Mass.  Antidragon Aura is handy as well, but it's not something I'd keep prepared all the time.

As has been mentioned, hitting the dragon with a targeted dispel magic early on is a good idea.  Dragons become much nastier with a small pile of low-level buffs (mage armor, shield, scintillating scales, bull's strength, etc.), and if you're not surprising the dragon, I'd expect them to have such buffs in place.

If you can neutralize their breath weapon (via Resist Energy, Mass), dragons don't really have that much damage capability.  They have a pile of hp that you need to work through, but you can beat them down just fine in a straight fight.  The problem is that they can fly, and they can fly *fast*.  If they're outdoors, you really can't engage them in melee or keep them from getting away if they don't want it.

Our 12th-level party recently fought a couple black dragons -- first an adult, then later (after resting) a mature adult.  We were prepared for both fights, though -- we were hunting the dragons.  We had Heroes' Feast and Mass Resist Energy in effect, so the dragons didn't really have anything they could do to us aside from melee.  Both fights our sorceress spammed Feeblemind, and it stuck eventually in both cases.

The first fight the dragon got away -- it was outdoors and we couldn't catch it.  It was feebleminded, though, so we staked out its lair and killed it when it eventually returned home to lick its wounds (I felt kinda bad for it...).

The second fight (vs. the mature adult) was a massacre.  We buffed up, charged into its lair, and killed it within a few rounds.  If that fight had been outdoors, though, the mature adult would have gotten away, too.  In this case, we were able to keep up with it long enough to finish it off due to an advantage in flight maneuverability -- we could fly straight up the exit shaft (with fly + haste) while the dragon had to fly upwards in a spiral.

Incidentally, this fight also prompted our DM to rule that Polymorph can only be used with MM1 monsters.  He wasn't so crazy about an entire party of flying War Trolls .


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