# Finally: Babylon 5 REMASTERED and Available for Streaming



## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 22, 2021)

I don't know if I missed this post, but this is YUUUUUGE news. I had been waiting for Babylon 5 to be released on HBO Max, but apparently (I still can't believe this ....) .....


IT HAS BEEN REMASTERED!

O.
M.
G.

For those of you not familiar with B5 (as it is known), it is one of the groundbreaking 90s sci-fi shows that started kinda-serialized, and then went nearly full serialization as the show went on. Admittedly, the budgets didn't always keep pace with the ideas, but it was an amazing and influential show. However, one of the huge issues was the CGI scenes, which were groundbreaking for the time, but ... well, required additional work.

It's not perfect; apparently, they went with a 4:3 for the remaster even though the original was filmed in widescreen (I'm guessing due to CGI issues, again), but still. What's more, maybe that means there's hope for shows like DS9?

Anyway, thought you should know. Here's a link to one of the many websites that made the announcement:








						'Babylon 5' gets remastered and is now available to rent or buy online
					

It's available on Amazon, iTunes and HBO Max.




					www.space.com
				




Feel free to comment about anything you want to in the comments!

(As for me, this show will always hold a special place in my heart; I still remember waiting for each and every episode each week to find out what happened, and to discuss it with my friends ... not to mention looking at the nascent web and the Lurker's Guide to see if there was additional analysis ... in the 90s!)


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## Ryujin (Feb 22, 2021)

One of my favourite SciFi arcs. The acting was soap opera grade, getting somewhat better with time, but the stories held up. That was probably in no small part to the shepherding of Harlan Ellison, though his ego doesn't need any boosting.

It was also good to finally hear the reasons for Michael O'Hare's exit from the series, putting to bed all of the rumours, after his passing.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> It was also good to finally hear the reasons for Michael O'Hare's exit from the series, putting to bed all of the rumours, after his passing.




It was good,in terms of there not being acrimony, as oppose to Claudia Christian's departure, but also so very sad. 

That said, very few shows have been able to lose the lead and keep going. The re-tooling with Sheridan (Boxleitner) was masterful, and the bringing Sinclair back in to "finish" the B-Squared arc ... that was well done.


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## Hex08 (Feb 22, 2021)

Easily one of t he best sci-fi shows around. As far as I know it's the first time we got the type of long form storytelling that would eventually lead to other greats like BSG and The Expanse.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 22, 2021)

Hex08 said:


> Easily one of t he best sci-fi shows around. As far as I know it's the first time we got the type of long form storytelling that would eventually lead to other greats like BSG and The Expanse.




It makes me think of two things.

First, of course, was that it was the first show that went heavy into long-form storytelling that I can remember. Sure, there were miniseries and so on before that. And X-Files had the "mythology" thing that kind of connected things before it fell apart. 

But B5 was the absolute first show that I recall that, while still occasionally doing the "concept of the week," almost invariably had that concept (or parts of it) dovetail into a coherent, storytelling whole. By the time of Season 3, it was pretty much what we'd consider a modern show.

The second thing? The 90s were the boomtime of the syndicate sci-fi shows. B5, Andromeda, Earth:Final Conflict, etc. The shows could be pretty uneven in quality, but there were some real gems in there. If you could find them- the syndication meant that the channels and times were always changing.


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## Ryujin (Feb 22, 2021)

Hex08 said:


> Easily one of t he best sci-fi shows around. As far as I know it's the first time we got the type of long form storytelling that would eventually lead to other greats like BSG and The Expanse.



Many SciFi series have had the concept of "The old Races" or "The Forerunners", but I think that B5 might have been the only one that had them actively taking part in daily life, albeit from behind a mask. It was one of the things I liked about it from the beginning (kind of figured it out early on) and it continued to be a lynchpin of the whole story arc.


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## Ryujin (Feb 22, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It makes me think of two things.
> 
> First, of course, was that it was the first show that went heavy into long-form storytelling that I can remember. Sure, there were miniseries and so on before that. And X-Files had the "mythology" thing that kind of connected things before it fell apart.
> 
> ...



I recently worked my way through Andromeda (The Canadian equivalent of SyFy ran it endlessly, for years) and it doesn't hold up very well, especially not the final season. It really feels like "Hercules: The Space Journeys." I actually like Sorbo's over the top style of '80s action 'acting', but fully admit that it doesn't have the stamina to make a product with a shelf life of decades.

I'm working my way through Earth: Final Conflict again, after having seen it in first run on TV, and it suffers from something that you mentioned previously; a major stumble when swapping out the main character. Then, in season 3, they remove one attractive female member of the cast to replace her with the stereotypical hot blonde, to try and renew interest. As I recall their already fairly poor ratings were flagging even more at that point.

By way of comparison, B5 seems to hold up pretty well. For me, at least. I would put this down to their concentration on character development and story, over sensationalism. I can even ignore the Amiga-based effects that could now be done to better than what was then Hollywood big budget standards, on a personal laptop because the stories they are telling behind those effects are compelling. Pity that it was so hard to keep up with when it was first on-air what with the constant moving of time slots, moving to another network, etc..

Time for a "palate cleanse" of watching some of the B5 movies, I think


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> However, one of the huge issues was the CGI scenes, which were groundbreaking for the time, but ... well, required additional work.




So, that's not quite correct, by my understanding.  The _original broadcast_ versions of the CGI were fine - Straczynski was thinking ahead, and produced CGI technically better than the dominant CRT TVs of the time could really show.  

However, when they ported that over to DVD format, the studio did a slipshod job of it.  For many years, the only way to see the show was off these crummy DVD ports.

For HBO Max, they did go back to the masters, and did a more proper port.  You are correct that they kept to the original broadcast ratio for cost reasons - the filming was all done in widescreen, but CGI porting to that would have taken more work than in the original broadcast ratio.  The information to do it exists, but it wasn't deemed cost effective - the fans will _love_ the remastered thing in the original broadcast ratio anyway.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> What's more, maybe that means there's hope for shows like DS9?




If CBS/Paramount sees that we fans will flock to remastered versions, it would be a selling point for Paramount+, yeah.

So, for goodness sake, watch B5, and get that message out!  We all want to see O'Brien in high definition!


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I recently worked my way through Andromeda (The Canadian equivalent of SyFy ran it endlessly, for years) and it doesn't hold up very well, especially not the final season. It really feels like "Hercules: The Space Journeys." I actually like Sorbo's over the top style of '80s action 'acting', but fully admit that it doesn't have the stamina to make a product with a shelf life of decades.
> 
> I'm working my way through Earth: Final Conflict again, after having seen it in first run on TV, and it suffers from something that you mentioned previously; a major stumble when swapping out the main character. Then, in season 3, they remove one attractive female member of the cast to replace her with the stereotypical hot blonde, to try and renew interest. As I recall their already fairly poor ratings were flagging even more at that point.
> 
> ...




Andromeda had a great concept.* The first season was pretty good! After that, it was diminishing returns, and it really fell off the cliff in the final season. 

*I have to imagine that Whedon saw it, and the Magog were in the back of his mind when he made the Reavers. 

I have a special place in my heart for E:FC. I think that the first season, for the time, was amazing. Great. Really well done. But then they switched out the lead actor and the writers, and the show was terrible after that. I am ashamed to say that I loved the first season so much I kept watching for a while, and checked in periodically, after that, but the shows were just so bad. I have trouble thinking of a show that was more disappointing. Even now, thinking about it hurts.


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## Ryujin (Feb 22, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Andromeda had a great concept.* The first season was pretty good! After that, it was diminishing returns, and it really fell off the cliff in the final season.
> 
> *I have to imagine that Whedon saw it, and the Magog were in the back of his mind when he made the Reavers.
> 
> I have a special place in my heart for E:FC. I think that the first season, for the time, was amazing. Great. Really well done. But then they switched out the lead actor and the writers, and the show was terrible after that. I am ashamed to say that I loved the first season so much I kept watching for a while, and checked in periodically, after that, but the shows were just so bad. I have trouble thinking of a show that was more disappointing. Even now, thinking about it hurts.



Guy with a slightly modified CVI as a fifth column style spy to a god-like hybrid who is fully known by one of the "enemy" was a bit jarring.


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Andromeda had a great concept.* The first season was pretty good! After that, it was diminishing returns, and it really fell off the cliff in the final season.




Concept was Roddenberry's strength, after all.

Sorbo, unfortunately, ruined it.  Not with his acting - in his producer role.  Robert Hewitt Wolfe was co-exec producer and showrunner for the first season.  Sorbo didn't like the direction they were going (which, by report, was that the show didn't center so much on his character and have everyone bow to his awesomeness).  As Sorbo took on exec producing, Wolfe left.  One can see the changeover in the second season when they ran out of Wolfe's scripts, the quality drops like a rock.

It is interesting to watch _Star Trek: Discovery_ take up the general concept and run with it in the most recent season.


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## payn (Feb 22, 2021)

Been watching on HBO Max. Man, that pilot was rough...


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## Vael (Feb 22, 2021)

I quite liked Earth: Final Conflict, but it was uneven at best. Couldn't get past the Sorbo-ness of Andromeda, it's quite tolerable when he's not on screen.

But back to Babylon 5, one of my all-time favourite genre series. This show, together with Buffy and Star Trek, are kinda my holy Trinity of TV in the 90s. The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 was one of the first webpages I ever viewed. I was in the midst of a rewatch of my DVDs. Still hoping for it to come to streaming in Canada.


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## Ryujin (Feb 22, 2021)

While Straczynski has publicly said that there would never be a B5 remake I wonder if he feels the same way about the spin-off, Crusade? It never really got its legs under it, before being axed.


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> While Straczynski has publicly said that there would never be a B5 remake I wonder if he feels the same way about the spin-off, Crusade? It never really got its legs under it, before being axed.




JMS is not much for going back over stuff he's already done.  That way lies madness of seeking perfection.  

But, the biggest reason where will be no remake is studio-politics.  JMS doesn't have the rights for the TV series, just over movies in the universe.  And there's some executive in the background that never liked B5, and never wanted it done in the first place, and has done whatever is in their power to keep the lid on that property.  I am, honestly, surprised to see it made it to HBO Max.  Happy, but surprised.

You won't see any other B5 material until that person leaves the studio, or dies, and maybe not even then.


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## MarkB (Feb 22, 2021)

The show's available to buy on Amazon UK, but I can't tell if it's the remastered version. The reviews are ambiguous, but some of them date back a few years, so probably not.


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## GreyLord (Feb 22, 2021)

Will it be released on blu-ray sometime?


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## Zardnaar (Feb 24, 2021)

Not often a show hits me in an emotional level but Sheridan's fate kicked me in the love spuds. 

 Did a rewatch few months ago on Amazon iirc. Still great looks bad though but doesn't matter to much.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 24, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Did a rewatch few months ago on Amazon iirc. Still great looks bad though but doesn't matter to much.




That's the point of this remaster- doesn't look so bad. Well, I mean, there's the whole thing with the budget; not even a remaster fixes that. But it looks pretty pretty pretty good.


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Well, I mean, there's the whole thing with the budget; not even a remaster fixes that. But it looks pretty pretty pretty good.




Yes, B5 wasn't a comparatively big-budget operation.  IIRC, B5 had about $800K per episode, while STS9 had about $1.6 million.

That being said, some of you folks are snobs.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yes, B5 wasn't a comparatively big-budget operation.  IIRC, B5 had about $800K per episode, while STS9 had about $1.6 million.
> 
> That bieng said, some of you folks are snobs.




I still recommend Blake's 7. One of the all-time best shows. 

That said, complaining about US TV shows compared to 70s BBC budgets ... HA!


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I still recommend Blake's 7. One of the all-time best shows.




Agreed.  Though, not accessible unless you subscribe to BritBox, iirc.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Feb 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Agreed.  Though, not accessible unless you subscribe to BritBox, iirc.




What is this "Britbox?" Real Blake's 7 fans huddle around badly over-used and circulated VCR copies of the show taped off of early-80s PBS airings.


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## trappedslider (Feb 24, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What is this "Britbox?" Real Blake's 7 fans huddle around badly over-used and circulated VCR copies of the show taped off of early-80s PBS airings.








						Home | BritBox
					

Home, Show, Movies




					www.britbox.com


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What is this "Britbox?"




A streaming service with lots of BBC content.  In the US, available through Amazon or Roku, I think.  Like $7 a month or somesuch.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> Real Blake's 7 fans huddle around badly over-used and circulated VCR copies of the show taped off of early-80s PBS airings.




No true Scotsman gatekeeps based on your viewing platform


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## Zardnaar (Feb 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yes, B5 wasn't a comparatively big-budget operation.  IIRC, B5 had about $800K per episode, while STS9 had about $1.6 million.
> 
> That bieng said, some of you folks are snobs.




 Recently watched ST:TNG and DS9 and B5. First time for DS9/TNG. 

 But yeah ST looks a lot better. Aged not to bad. B5 looks terrible. 

 Quality of show B5, DS9, TNG ymmv. At least all of them were good. Except season 1&2 TNG cherry picked those seasons.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> A streaming service with lots of BBC content.  In the US, available through Amazon or Roku, I think.  Like $7 a month or somesuch.
> 
> 
> 
> No true Scotsman gatekeeps based on your viewing platform




 Thinking of getting some physical media as it rotates on streaming services. And they've cut episodes as well. 

 Watched Stargate SG1 and Atlantis on Netflix, own SG1 on DVD but lost some Atlantis. 

 Weird using DVDs though. Tried watchingting Aliens and it was zoned and if course dumped the multizone DVD player years ago. Oops.


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## MarkB (Feb 25, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Thinking of getting some physical media as it rotates on streaming services. And they've cut episodes as well.
> 
> Watched Stargate SG1 and Atlantis on Netflix, own SG1 on DVD but lost some Atlantis.
> 
> Weird using DVDs though. Tried watchingting Aliens and it was zoned and if course dumped the multizone DVD player years ago. Oops.



I know what you mean. I'm regretting not owning more of Doctor Who on physical media now that Netflix have dropped it. It's still available on iPlayer in the UK, but only to license fee payers, and I stopped watching broadcast TV a couple of years ago.

On the few occasions I watch physical media these days, I have to use my PS4. My current PC doesn't have any kind of external media drive.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 25, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I know what you mean. I'm regretting not owning more of Doctor Who on physical media now that Netflix have dropped it. It's still available on iPlayer in the UK, but only to license fee payers, and I stopped watching broadcast TV a couple of years ago.
> 
> On the few occasions I watch physical media these days, I have to use my PS4. My current PC doesn't have any kind of external media drive.



 Yeah I had to use PS4 / xbox one. I had to download an app to run the dvd on xbox.


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## GreyLord (Feb 25, 2021)

I guess I'm an old individual.  I still have multiple Blu-Ray players (and even an HD4K Blu Ray player) as well as a ton of DVDs and Blu-rays.  

I'll watch things streaming, but I do not like paying the price they normally charge to purchase a streaming show which probably won't be around (probably being the key word) as long as the physical media.  

I would be interested in watching a B5 remaster, but I would want it on physical media...not streaming.  Plus, despite what people claim, there's a difference between watching a Blu-ray in HD and streaming HD.  Streaming is about 1/4 as good as the Blu-Ray physical disc, so if it's a remaster, would prefer to see it in all it's glory.

Personal preference of course.


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## Ryujin (Feb 25, 2021)

As an aside I had completely forgotten that I had this on one of my RPG shelves, until I saw it while looking for the old WEG Star Wars game books for a friend on Facebook.

_EDIT_ Sorry, downsized to something a little more reasonable.


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## Umbran (Feb 25, 2021)

GreyLord said:


> I'll watch things streaming, but I do not like paying the price they normally charge to purchase a streaming show which probably won't be around (probably being the key word) as long as the physical media.




I'm not purchasing a single streaming show.  I'm paying a subscription fee to access a large library of content, which I use fairly frequently, for more than just the one program.



GreyLord said:


> Plus, despite what people claim, there's a difference between watching a Blu-ray in HD and streaming HD.  Streaming is about 1/4 as good as the Blu-Ray physical disc, so if it's a remaster, would prefer to see it in all it's glory.




If it is a UHD Blu-ray disk, you have a 4k TV, _and_ you typically sit close enough to it, there can be a difference, yes. Since it doesn't exist in that format, I don't have such a TV, and my room layout doesn't really support sitting that close, these are not barriers to me.

There is such a thing as making perfect the enemy of good.  I will not deny myself an awesome sci-fi story because the visual presentation is less than the absolute best available to modern consumer technology.


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## Ryujin (Feb 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I'm not purchasing a single streaming show.  I'm paying a subscription fee to access a large library of content, which I use fairly frequently, for more than just the one program.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I recently bought the DVDs of the two "Kolchak: The Night Stalker" movies and the full run of the TV series. You can bet your life that they aren't even full DVD quality, let alone UHD BluRay quality, but that didn't stop me from enjoying the hell out of them


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I'm not purchasing a single streaming show.  I'm paying a subscription fee to access a large library of content, which I use fairly frequently, for more than just the one program.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We've got 3 streaming services. Was looking at cutting Disney but they added Star to it and there's a lot of movies and shows we want to watch on it. 

  Firefly looked nice. Watching Alien right now. For 1979 looks great.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 1, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> We've got 3 streaming services. Was looking at cutting Disney but they added Star to it and there's a lot of movies and shows we want to watch on it.
> 
> Firefly looked nice. Watching Alien right now. For 1979 looks great.




Ugh. Streaming services.

Right now, I have three.
Netflix (because I've had it forever ... you know, back when they shipped you DVDs).
Prime (because I have it for shipping, and hey, free stuff).
HBOMax (because HBO was awesome, and then they just put in all of this amazing stuff, from Studio Ghibli to everything DC, to all the movies).

And yet, I don't have Disney+ (Marvel, Star Wars), Paramount+ (STAR TREK! NO!!!!!!), or Hulu. 

... it's a bizarre situation. On the one hand, with just the three services I have, I have so much to watch that I never, ever run out. And yet, by not having some of the other services, I feel like I'm missing out (haven't seen Wandavision or the Mandalorian, nor have I see the latest Star Trek series).

I feel like I'm at the biggest feast, gorging myself, and there's someone saying, "Hey, next table over they've got really good food you should try!"


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> And yet, I don't have Disney+ (Marvel, Star Wars), Paramount+ (STAR TREK! NO!!!!!!), or Hulu.
> 
> ... it's a bizarre situation. On the one hand, with just the three services I have, I have so much to watch that I never, ever run out. And yet, by not having some of the other services, I feel like I'm missing out (haven't seen Wandavision or the Mandalorian, nor have I see the latest Star Trek series).
> 
> I feel like I'm at the biggest feast, gorging myself, and there's someone saying, "Hey, next table over they've got really good food you should try!"




Worse, it isn't that someone is saying it - it is actually true - there's good stuff over on the other table.

I look at it this way - the basic, with commercials, offering of Paramount+ is going to be $4.99/month.  If they have only one show I want to watch each week, that's $1.20 per show.  So long as I am watching at least that much, it is a reasonable expense.

Repeat for each service.


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## payn (Mar 1, 2021)

Covid has increased my viewing time immensely that im burning through services. Time to cancel Netflix for a bit. I might have to finally try CBS plus or whatever.


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## Mallus (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What's more, maybe that means there's hope for shows like DS9?



Yeah, the B5 remasters show what you can do with rescanning the original film, color correction, and good upscaling. Is there a reason you couldn't do the same for DS9? I remember the TNG remasters requiring a lot more effort & money, basically needing all there post-production work redone, but I don't recall why.


Ryujin said:


> One of my favourite SciFi arcs. The acting was soap opera grade, getting somewhat better with time, but the stories held up.



The acting from Jurasik and Katsulis was great. Furlann, too, considering her role was sorta Space Galadriel + Space Mom. My friends and I used to joke the actors on the show couldn't play convincing humans, but the people playing aliens were terrific.

(I guess Jerry Doyle playing Jerry Doyle was perfect as Garibaldi, since Garibaldi was just Jerry Doyle)


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Worse, it isn't that someone is saying it - it is actually true - there's good stuff over on the other table.
> 
> I look at it this way - the basic, with commercials, offering of Paramount+ is going to be $4.99/month.  If they have only one show I want to watch each week, that's $1.20 per show.  So long as I am watching at least that much, it is a reasonable expense.
> 
> Repeat for each service.




I want to follow up her on considering budgets for services...

How much is okay to pay for services for you?  In a world where a coffee is several dollars, let us consider.  Is $1.50 a reasonable price to pay for an hour's entertainment?  Or maybe you figure $3 per day is a reasonable cost for media you consume?

At $3 per day, you can have Paramount+ ($5/month), Netflix ($9/month), Hulu ($6/mo) - and that's only from the budget from the first week!


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Yeah, the B5 remasters show what you can do with rescanning the original film, color correction, and good upscaling. Is there a reason you couldn't do the same for DS9?




No reason other than the cost.  For a recent documentary (What We Left Behind), producers did a remaster of a couple of scenes, just to show the result.  For example:


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 1, 2021)

Mallus said:


> The acting from Jurasik and Katsulis was great. Furlann, too, considering her role was sorta Space Galadriel + Space Mom. My friends and I used to joke the actors on the show couldn't play convincing humans, but the people playing aliens were terrific.
> 
> (I guess Jerry Doyle playing Jerry Doyle was perfect as Garibaldi, since Garibaldi was just Jerry Doyle)




Heh. Bill Mumy FTW!

I will give credit to Michael O'Hare, who was excellent in an otherwise ... uneven .... first season.

And to Bruce Boxleitner, who was an excellent Sheridan. 

But yes, a lot of the actors that were cult favorites on the human side, from Claudia Christian, to Jeff Conaway (RIP), were just not very good. Richard Biggs was ... serviceable in an underused role, and some (Patricia Tallman, Andrea Thompson, Jason Carter) were, um, oof.

I loved, absolutely loved, Walter Koenig playing against type though. Watching him chew the scenery is one of the great pleasures of the show.


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## Mallus (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> How much is okay to pay for services for you?  In a world where a coffee is several dollars, let us consider.  Is $1.50 a reasonable price to pay for an hour's entertainment?  Or maybe you figure $3 per day is a reasonable cost for media you consume?



I compare everything to food & booze.

So one month of commercial-free CBS for the new Star Trek series was $10. The price of fish and chips at my local. Or the price of 2 pints to go with it. So half the price of a single lunch out (sans tax and tip) in the Before Times!


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## Ryujin (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Heh. Bill Mumy FTW!
> 
> I will give credit to Michael O'Hare, who was excellent in an otherwise ... uneven .... first season.
> 
> ...



I always loved Andreas Katsulas' over the top style. He would occasionally show up in other SciFi productions like "Max Headroom" and "Alien Nation." And seeing Bill Mumy, all grown up from the kid "Lost in Space", from my childhood, was a treat, as was his cameo in the new "Lost in Space."


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Heh. Bill Mumy FTW!
> 
> I will give credit to Michael O'Hare, who was excellent in an otherwise ... uneven .... first season.




He always came off as a bit stiff, to me.  But, he was battling such personal issues that I can't fault him for that.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> And to Bruce Boxleitner, who was an excellent Sheridan.




He was great... except in the romance plot.   I got the chemistry from her side, but never bought his.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> But yes, a lot of the actors that were cult favorites on the human side, from Claudia Christian, to Jeff Conaway (RIP), were just not very good.




Christian seemed fine, for the role which was supposed to be a kind of uptight.  



Snarf Zagyg said:


> I loved, absolutely loved, Walter Koenig playing against type though. Watching him chew the scenery is one of the great pleasures of the show.




I think I get what you mean. The remarkable thing was how controlled and quiet he was while chewing scenery.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I want to follow up her on considering budgets for services...
> 
> How much is okay to pay for services for you?  In a world where a coffee is several dollars, let us consider.  Is $1.50 a reasonable price to pay for an hour's entertainment?  Or maybe you figure $3 per day is a reasonable cost for media you consume?
> 
> At $3 per day, you can have Paramount+ ($5/month), Netflix ($9/month), Hulu ($6/mo) - and that's only from the budget from the first week!




 It's not so much that they're cheap enough. 

 Problem is lots of places are now doing subscription services. 

 PS4+ subscription. Xbox gold subscription, game pass subscription, EA access subscription etc etc etc even ENworlds doing it. 

 Time is finite so something's has to give and it adds up fast. We kept the major ones and cut the others. 

 Disney+ initially couldn't even offer one show a week. Amazon barely has enough original stuff so once you watch the back catalogue......

 Disney+ added Star and a lot of stuff my wife and myself want to see.


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> It's not so much that they're cheap enough.
> 
> Problem is lots of places are now doing subscription services.
> 
> ...




And that's fine. The point is to _actually think_ about the cost.   This makes you think about it in comparison to other items.

You want to pay $30 for an RPG book?  How many hours are you going to spend reading it and interacting with it?  How many hours of media is it equivalent to?  Is that game book worth _six months_ of Star Trek viewing?

Or, turn that around - you were perfectly okay with buying that game book, and you are happy and satisfied with your purchase.  Would you get as much or more out of six months of Trek?  If yes, then the cost of Paramount+ should be okay.

There's a sort of false economy you can fall into if you aren't careful to compare the value to you.  For example, if you spend a whole bunch on game books you don't use, but are avoiding media that you would love, because the subscriptions are "expensive", maybe that bears looking at.


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## Ryujin (Mar 1, 2021)

There's also the fact that you *own* that game book and can come back to it 20 years later, if you like, whereas that streaming content is something that can be withdrawn at any moment. is it something that you want effectively in perpetuity, or is it just a thing of the fleeting moment? (Someone who was left with a sour taste in his mouth after the online 4e content that was supposed to be available "forever" was removed.)


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> There's also the fact that you *own* that game book and can come back to it 20 years later, if you like...




So, definitely include the cost of storage of that physical object in as well.  How many more square feet f house do you need for your gaming stuff that you worry about on a decades-long timescale?

-Someone who is looking at a cabinet full of music on CDs that hasn't been opened in a decade...


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## Ryujin (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, definitely include the cost of storage of that physical object in as well.  How many more square feet f house do you need for your gaming stuff that you worry about on a decades-long timescale?
> 
> -Someone who is looking at a cabinet full of music on CDs that hasn't been opened in a decade...



Or the DVD/Blu-Ray disks. Or, as is far more common these days, the digital files that you can actually own in perpetuity, and store on media that becomes ever more dense in storage capacity, virtually by the day.


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## Mallus (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I will give credit to Michael O'Hare, who was excellent in an otherwise ... uneven .... first season.



I liked O'Hare as Sinclair. Honestly, I preferred Sinclair to Sheridan. O'Hare had a great voice, well-suited for Serious Science Fiction (which was also gonzo space opera).


Snarf Zagyg said:


> But yes, a lot of the actors that were cult favorites on the human side, from Claudia Christian, to Jeff Conaway (RIP), were just not very good.



Conway was great on Taxi. On B5... not so much.


Snarf Zagyg said:


> Richard Biggs was ... serviceable in an underused role, and some (Patricia Tallman, Andrea Thompson, Jason Carter) were, um, oof.



Enjoyed Biggs's very doctor-like performance as a doctor. Okay, I may have been exaggerating about the actors playing humans...


Snarf Zagyg said:


> I loved, absolutely loved, Walter Koenig playing against type though. Watching him chew the scenery is one of the great pleasures of the show.



I grew up Kirk-era Star Trek. I prefer my science fiction with a giant side of ham.


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Or the DVD/Blu-Ray disks. Or, as is far more common these days, the digital files that you can actually own in perpetuity, and store on media that becomes ever more dense in storage capacity, virtually by the day.




Yeah.  And hard drives never, and mean _neverever_ crash and take your data with them.  Or get stolen.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> There's also the fact that you *own* that game book and can come back to it 20 years later, if you like, whereas that streaming content is something that can be withdrawn at any moment. is it something that you want effectively in perpetuity, or is it just a thing of the fleeting moment? (Someone who was left with a sour taste in his mouth after the online 4e content that was supposed to be available "forever" was removed.)




 True but you rarely get the option if using those books. Fun owning them. 

 I have a junk room and it's full of old D&D books, CDs, old Sega, Nintendo, Sony games etc. 

 Need to hire a skip..... 

 Mostly skipped blue ray still have a few dvds they mostly hang out with the CDs. They're having a party.

 You have to go find the DVDs then you're missing a disk or it's hiding in another cover or the PS2....


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## delericho (Mar 1, 2021)

In the UK we're still in the lucky position that there are only a handful of services needed to get "everything". Though I suspect that that is liable to change over the next couple of years as more and more providers want a slice of the streaming pie.

My inclination, if and when that happens, is to adopt a rotation - subscribe to one or two services for a couple of months, binge as many shows as possible, and then repeat with the next service(s). (Of course, I fully expect the services to start taking steps to stop _that_, too, but that's far enough away for me not to worry about it.  )


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

delericho said:


> In the UK we're still in the lucky position that there are only a handful of services needed to get "everything". Though I suspect that that is liable to change over the next couple of years as more and more providers want a slice of the streaming pie.
> 
> My inclination, if and when that happens, is to adopt a rotation - subscribe to one or two services for a couple of months, binge as many shows as possible, and then repeat with the next service(s). (Of course, I fully expect the services to start taking steps to stop _that_, too, but that's far enough away for me not to worry about it.  )




 They've started doing that via weekly releases.


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## delericho (Mar 1, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> They've started doing that via weekly releases.



Sure, but I can counter that by just waiting a while. To be honest, for most shows I prefer to do that anyway - bank them up and then binge.

One of these days they may choose to build a timer into the account - once you've watched episode 1 you need to wait a week before _you_ can watch episode 2. That will be annoying.


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## Ryujin (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  And hard drives never, and mean _neverever_ crash and take your data with them.  Or get stolen.



RAID, multiple drives, Cloud backup 

I have about hundred GB of video, mostly from Kickstarters


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

delericho said:


> Sure, but I can counter that by just waiting a while. To be honest, for most shows I prefer to do that anyway - bank them up and then binge.
> 
> One of these days they may choose to build a timer into the account - once you've watched episode 1 you need to wait a week before _you_ can watch episode 2. That will be annoying.




 Yeah it's kinda hard to avoid spoilers though. I suspect we'll end up with consolidated steaming as the smaller players get gobbled up.


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## Umbran (Mar 1, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> RAID, multiple drives, Cloud backup




Yeah, that's the technological base we should assume people have at home to assess what is reasonable in media consumption :/


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## Ryujin (Mar 1, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, that's the technological base we should assume people have at home to assess what is reasonable in media consumption :/



Any or all. If you're consuming media by file, you've got at least 2 of them.


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## payn (Mar 1, 2021)

I never noticed in previous viewings of B5 how many of the guest stars also did episodes of Star Trek.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

payn said:


> I never noticed in previous viewings of B5 how many of the guest stars also did episodes of Star Trek.




 It's a game we play but add in Stargate SG1/Atlantis. 

 A lot of cross over between Trek, BS9 and SG1. 

 Or shows filmed in Vancouver. 

 Or spot the guest star in the other random shows.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 1, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> It's a game we play but add in Stargate SG1/Atlantis.
> 
> A lot of cross over between Trek, BS9 and SG1.
> 
> ...










Sheridan, you asked me if I was in the meth business or the money business.

NEITHER.

I am in the empire business.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 1, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Sheridan, you asked me if I was in the meth business or the money business.
> 
> NEITHER.
> 
> I am in the empire business.




 Yep there's all sorts of before they were famous spots.


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