# Banned for mentioning CBLoader...



## Lokiare (Nov 26, 2010)

Hi just got banned from the WotC forums for mentioning CBLoader... Anyone else getting tired of the shenanigans over at WotC?


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## DracoSuave (Nov 26, 2010)

Get off your high horse.  What did you think was gonna happen?  A parade in your honor?

When a company bans someone for mentioning an executable file that interferes with (and possibly leeches) information from their service, it's not a shinanegan.  It's what we in the common sense business call 'expected.'

Regardless of your feelings, right or wrong, about the program, it's their official corporate site, and it is foolish to think they they'll be pleased as punch about you giving lip-service to it.  People need to think before they start posting stuff like that; there's no moral, ethical, nor legal obligation on the part of wizards to accommodate you in spreading word of something that can violate the TOS for their customers.


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## Lokiare (Nov 26, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Get off your high horse.  What did you think was gonna happen?  A parade in your honor?
> 
> When a company bans someone for mentioning an executable file that interferes with (and possibly leeches) information from their service, it's not a shinanegan.  It's what we in the common sense business call 'expected.'
> 
> Regardless of your feelings, right or wrong, about the program, it's their official corporate site, and it is foolish to think they they'll be pleased as punch about you giving lip-service to it.  People need to think before they start posting stuff like that; there's no moral, ethical, nor legal obligation on the part of wizards to accommodate you in spreading word of something that can violate the TOS for their customers.




The CBLoader only allows you to put custom content into the old CB. In other words it allows people to input dark sun and house rules. As far as I know without further programs you can't remove content...

No need to go off the deep end here...


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## john112364 (Nov 26, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Get off your high horse. What did you think was gonna happen? A parade in your honor?
> 
> When a company bans someone for mentioning an executable file that interferes with (and possibly leeches) information from their service, it's not a shinanegan. It's what we in the common sense business call 'expected.'
> 
> Regardless of your feelings, right or wrong, about the program, it's their official corporate site, and it is foolish to think they they'll be pleased as punch about you giving lip-service to it. People need to think before they start posting stuff like that; there's no moral, ethical, nor legal obligation on the part of wizards to accommodate you in spreading word of something that can violate the TOS for their customers.




Harsh, but true. I mean there was discussion here about the legality of the CBLoader. You don't have freedom of speech on a forum. You have whatever freedom the mods allow based on the content, the tone and whatever is deemed acceptable on that particular forum. As DracoSuave implied common sense applies as well.


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## Lokiare (Nov 26, 2010)

john112364 said:


> Harsh, but true. I mean there was discussion here about the legality of the CBLoader. You don't have freedom of speech on a forum. You have whatever freedom the mods allow based on the content, the tone and whatever is deemed acceptable on that particular forum. As DracoSuave implied common sense applies as well.




someone was complaining about the lack of homebrew in the new CB and all I said was...

"Google CBLoader"

... and got a 24 hour ban from it... A little harsh I would think... I can understand my post getting edited or something and a warning, but a ban seriously?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 26, 2010)

Yep- the same kind of thing would happen on the forums of an ePublisher if you were posting about how to edit _their_ products...or if you posted data about product mods that were illegal or dangerous on a manufacturer's website.

IOW, I don't see any shenanigans on WoTC's part, here.

It's THEIR forum, why would you expect any other reaction?

Try going in a restaurant and telling anyone & everyone in earshot about how you can get everything on the menu cheaper- in front of the owner- and see how welcome you are.


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## Lokiare (Nov 26, 2010)

That's ok, before that I got a 24 hour ban from asking "Are you trolling?"

That along with everything else that's been going on for the last several months puts me to the point where I'm about ready to drop WotC and D&D from my life. I've been playing for quite a number of years, but this kind of stuff just makes me want to quit and join the WoW crowd...


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## Mithreinmaethor (Nov 26, 2010)

Lokiare said:


> That's ok, before that I got a 24 hour ban from asking "Are you trolling?"
> 
> That along with everything else that's been going on for the last several months puts me to the point where I'm about ready to drop WotC and D&D from my life. I've been playing for quite a number of years, but this kind of stuff just makes me want to quit and join the WoW crowd...




And the D&D world rejoices


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## Aegeri (Nov 26, 2010)

Hi guys, let me come onto your forum and tell people about ways of violating your IP. I totally expect that they are going to be totally fine with that and not in any way ban me for doing so.

Edit: Like I imagine if someone came onto ENWorld and said "Google X" to pick up stuff that ENWorld gives to community supporters (like their adventures and such) they would be similarly unimpressed.


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## malraux (Nov 26, 2010)

Complaining about a 24 hour vacation as though it were some massive insult is rather overwrought.  WotC moderating their forums is a good thing.  A heavier hand might actually be a better idea.  Either way, its crazy to expect a company to let posts that encourage cracking of their product to stay on their forum.


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## Piratecat (Nov 26, 2010)

Let's put some things in perspective. A 24 hour suspension isn't a ban. A ban is "holy crap, they've shut down my user name, I'm not welcome back." Speaking as an admin here, a 24 hour suspension is how they say "hey, you've broken the site rules, this is a reminder so you please don't do it again." I'd really caution you against taking it personally or getting offended. Just take it as it is intended - a warning - and post accordingly.

But guys, ratchet down the hostility. Explaining the situation is one thing; being a jerk to the original poster is another.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Nov 26, 2010)

Honestly, after LOOKING at CBLoader I think the complaints against it are harsh. It doesn't steal or copy data etc. All it does is let you MANUALLY edit the XML and extract parts of it into a separate file that you can maintain or add home brew stuff, then it merges your homebrew/modifications into the actual file that CB loads. That way when they update the file your changes don't get nuked. You can do exactly the same stuff without CBLoader, you'd just need some professional quality XML editing tools (you'd probably want these ANYWAY) and a knowledge of XSLT.

Of course WotC can make whatever rules they want for their forum, so in that sense the OP has little complain about. They don't like CBLoader, so you can't talk about it there. AFAICT without having actually run it though the thing is harmless and probably kind of handy.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 26, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> Hi guys, let me come onto your forum and tell people about ways of violating your IP. I totally expect that they are going to be totally fine with that and not in any way ban me for doing so.
> 
> Edit: Like I imagine if someone came onto ENWorld and said "Google X" to pick up stuff that ENWorld gives to community supporters (like their adventures and such) they would be similarly unimpressed.




To be fair, it _is_ pretty easy to google "War of the Burning Sky torrent." Then again, one of the NPCs in the campaign is named Torrent, so that might give really amateur pirates a hard time. Maybe I should name the PCs' boss in the next campaign Download McPirateBay.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Nov 26, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> To be fair, it _is_ pretty easy to google "War of the Burning Sky torrent." Then again, one of the NPCs in the campaign is named Torrent, so that might give really amateur pirates a hard time. Maybe I should name the PCs' boss in the next campaign Download McPirateBay.




Sure, but AFAICT without actually running the program it is equivalent to someone putting out a program that can edit the WotBS PDF so people can customize it for their own use. Sure, the people doing that might have stolen the PDF to start with, but they are just as likely to be legitimate users. CBLoader doesn't make it ANY easier to steal the data files for CB. Beyond that anyone that stole the CB program itself will have gotten working versions of the files with it (at whatever update level they happened to be at). If you look at the thread on Google Code there's no mention of piracy etc. Just a few people asking about how they might go about getting their custom content to work.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 26, 2010)

> Sure, but AFAICT without actually running the program it is equivalent to someone putting out a program that can edit the WotBS PDF so people can customize it for their own use.




There are all kinds of ways one can modify Colt firearms, but that doesn't mean Colt will just let you post threads on their boards about those modifications.  Its well within the realm of possibility that they would boot you, at least for a short time.

Not being a Colt owner, I couldn't tell you if they do or don't, but its within their rights, so you shouldn't be surprised if it did happen.

And the same goes for WotC.


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## catastrophic (Nov 26, 2010)

It's not constructive at all to post about something like that on the Wotc forums, and i'm saying this as somebody who usually doesn't give a rat's ass about bans and probations. Lokiare, if you like CBloader and want people to have that option, then waving a red flag over it on the official forums is not a good way to go about that. As for being sick of D&D, what do the wotc forum mods have to do with your home game, or the games your friends play? Don't link forum policy to your enjoyment of the game, or evne the comunity, that's just going to ruin fun for you and stir you up.


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## SoulsFury (Nov 26, 2010)

I must say that I am ashamed of this thread and almost every response in it. PirateCat hit the nail on the head. The OP is complaining he got a ban, but in fact he didn't and is definitely a bit, umm, over angry about it.

In the OPs somewhat defense, because IMO, he shouldn't have posted that, the cbloader isn't that big of a deal. I had not heard anything about it, and after five minutes of reading through the google, it isn't something I feel like using. But, like someone said above, the cbloader isn't anything terrible. I have often been frustrated with the cb that I can't create the homebrew stuff I would like. At least most of the users of cbloader downloaded the cb legally. The ones that are going to use it illegally, like rangerwickett alluded too, are going to do that anyway. The cb should allow me to introduce any number of homebrew elements I want. Isn't that what D&D is about? 

Basically:
Is the WotC 24 hour ban justified? Yes, the OP should have used common sense.

Is some of your responses justified? No. Some (read: most) are coming off like pompous jerks.

Is the OPs anger justified? No, its only 24 hours. Grab a beer, enjoy Thanksgiving with your family and get on tomorrow... actually, maybe we should all think about our D&D addiction since we are on here on turkey day 

Is the old downloadable Character Builder restrictive? Yes.

Have a great Thanksgiving!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 26, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> To be fair, it _is_ pretty easy to google "War of the Burning Sky torrent." Then again, one of the NPCs in the campaign is named Torrent, so that might give really amateur pirates a hard time. Maybe I should name the PCs' boss in the next campaign Download McPirateBay.




Hmm... That might not be a dumb move.


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2010)

You pointed to how people could violate the EULA, on their own board, and got a 24 Hr. hiatus? Seems pretty reasonable to me.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Nov 26, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> There are all kinds of ways one can modify Colt firearms, but that doesn't mean Colt will just let you post threads on their boards about those modifications.  Its well within the realm of possibility that they would boot you, at least for a short time.
> 
> Not being a Colt owner, I couldn't tell you if they do or don't, but its within their rights, so you shouldn't be surprised if it did happen.
> 
> And the same goes for WotC.




Never said otherwise. I was only commenting on, or maybe it is informing people here, that CBLoader itself seems innocuous so it isn't necessary to come down on the OP about it.

Yep, WotC can have whatever rules it wants on its forums. I don't have a single thing to say about that, nor even feel the need to voice an opinion about what they do or don't want up there. Pretty much the same with ENWorld for that matter. If I didn't like it I'd just put up my own boards and make my own rules. So yeah, the OP complaining about his 'ban'? Not hearing any particular sympathy on that from me.


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## Scribble (Nov 26, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> There are all kinds of ways one can modify Colt firearms, but that doesn't mean Colt will just let you post threads on their boards about those modifications.  Its well within the realm of possibility that they would boot you, at least for a short time.
> 
> Not being a Colt owner, I couldn't tell you if they do or don't, but its within their rights, so you shouldn't be surprised if it did happen.
> 
> And the same goes for WotC.




Disputes on gun forums aren't handled by mods- You just knock the card table over and challenge the other guy to a draw at high noon.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Nov 26, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Disputes on gun forums aren't handled by mods- You just knock the card table over and challenge the other guy to a draw at high noon.




Double-aught! I shoot him right between the eyes, mortal wound. STILL think my Stephenson is a girl's gun?


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## renau1g (Nov 26, 2010)

SoulsFury said:


> . actually, maybe we should all think about our D&D addiction since we are on here on *turkey day*




Only for you Yanks  Up in Canada we had ours last month.


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## Ardulac (Nov 26, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> There are all kinds of ways one can modify Colt firearms, but that doesn't mean Colt will just let you post threads on their boards about those modifications.  Its well within the realm of possibility that they would boot you, at least for a short time.
> 
> Not being a Colt owner, I couldn't tell you if they do or don't, but its within their rights, so you shouldn't be surprised if it did happen.
> 
> And the same goes for WotC.




This isn't really a good analogy since Colt has legitimate concerns about products liability if someone alters one of their guns in a dangerous way.  As far as I know, the Character Builder can't cause physical injury.  From what everyone else has said about this CBLoader, it sounds like Wizards is just being extremely careful about IP concerns which is a very different sort of legal concern.

I also think a lot of people are completely missing the OP's point.  He's not saying that Wizards has broken the law or shouldn't be allowed to do what they did.  He just seems to be questioning whether they're being overprotective jerks for doing so.  I'm personally very pro-modding, so stifling discussion about modding programs because of some tenuous possibility of piracy doesn't sit well with me.  I mean seriously, any halfway competent pirate can find the whole CB available for download.  All this program does is make it easier to add content.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 26, 2010)

Ardulac said:


> This isn't really a good analogy since Colt has legitimate concerns about products liability if someone alters one of their guns in a dangerous way.  As far as I know, the Character Builder can't cause physical injury.  From what everyone else has said about this CBLoader, it sounds like Wizards is just being extremely careful about IP concerns which is a very different sort of legal concern.




Actually, it's extremely unlikely that Colt would be liable, since they would not be then proximate cause of potential injuries.  Their concerns are more to do with protecting databases of user info (if the mod poster posted something illegal); and the expensive nuisance that even unsuccessful lawsuits could be.

Oh yeah, and protecting the integrity of their product...just like WotC and every other producer of commercial goods.



> I also think a lot of people are completely missing the OP's point.  He's not saying that Wizards has broken the law or shouldn't be allowed to do what they did.  He just seems to be questioning whether they're being overprotective jerks for doing so.  I'm personally very pro-modding, so stifling discussion about modding programs because of some tenuous possibility of piracy doesn't sit well with me.  I mean seriously, any halfway competent pirate can find the whole CB available for download.  All this program does is make it easier to add content.




I'm pretty sure _EVERYBODY_ got his point, and the consensus seems to be that we're predominantly unsurprised that a company would not look kindly on people posting product modding data _on the company's own website._

One of my other hobbies is playing guitars.  One of the most common things guitar players do besides play them is modify them.  Very few guitar companies let modding info stay on their boards unless it involves their own modding products.  You find modding info on 3rd party sites, like those hosted by magazines, or private fan sites analogous to ENWorld.


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## the Jester (Nov 26, 2010)

Ardulac said:


> I also think a lot of people are completely missing the OP's point.




Well, I think a lot of people are completely disagreeing with the OP's point. We _get it,_ we just don't agree with it.


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## SteveC (Nov 26, 2010)

For whatever it's worth, the existence of this program is the thing that will most likely keep me as a subscriber to DDI. That may sound ironic, but it's true.

--Steve


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## Scribble (Nov 27, 2010)

Same thing will happen if you log on to the Xbox live forums and start talking about Modding xboxes btw. 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## SoulsFury (Nov 27, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Only for you Yanks  Up in Canada we had ours last month.




I always forget the foreign races of the world don't celebrate the holidays properly!


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## Ardulac (Nov 27, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Actually, it's extremely unlikely that Colt would be liable, since they would not be then proximate cause of potential injuries.  Their concerns are more to do with protecting databases of user info (if the mod poster posted something illegal); and the expensive nuisance that even unsuccessful lawsuits could be.




Great Googling, but I have actually taken Torts, and proximate cause isn't necessary for products liability (at least not between the company and the harm).  Either way, whether the lawsuit would be successful or not isn't important.  The point is that it is a liability issue either way.  And I'm not sure how banning users who modify guns is protecting databases, but whatever.



> Oh yeah, and protecting the integrity of their product...just like WotC and every other producer of commercial goods.




Different companies do this to different degrees.  Some encourage modding, some go out of their way to make it difficult/impossible.  If the discussion is about how hard a company should resist mention of modding programs, then generalizing isn't helpful.



> I'm pretty sure _EVERYBODY_ got his point, and the consensus seems to be that we're predominantly unsurprised that a company would not look kindly on people posting product modding data _on the company's own website._
> 
> One of my other hobbies is playing guitars.  One of the most common things guitar players do besides play them is modify them.  Very few guitar companies let modding info stay on their boards unless it involves their own modding products.  You find modding info on 3rd party sites, like those hosted by magazines, or private fan sites analogous to ENWorld.




Most of the replies seem to be about what WotC CAN do, not what they should do.  I think they should be more open to modding since D&D is the sort of game that relies on experimentation and the goodwill of the fans, and the sort of knee-jerk, "it might lead to piracy, so we must prevent any mention of it" reaction they're displaying cuts against that.  Then again, I thought 3rd edition and the SRD were pretty much the golden age of gaming and that thing was pretty much piracy on wheels, so I probably lean a lot more C than L.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 27, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> But guys, ratchet down the hostility. Explaining the situation is one thing; being a jerk to the original poster is another.




Well, to be honest, isn't the OP now breaking ENWorld's rules?  Not only posting about another board, but about the admins moderating of his posts?  Aren't both frowned upon here?  So, that might explain the hostility.  For example, let's say you threadban me from this thread and I start up another thread complaining about my "ban."  Is that ok?  Is it now okay to start talking about how other boards are moderated?


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## Ardulac (Nov 27, 2010)

Infiniti2000 said:


> Well, to be honest, isn't the OP now breaking ENWorld's rules?  Not only posting about another board, but about the admins moderating of his posts?  Aren't both frowned upon here?  So, that might explain the hostility.  For example, let's say you threadban me from this thread and I start up another thread complaining about my "ban."  Is that ok?  Is it now okay to start talking about how other boards are moderated?




Is it okay to backseat mod?  If you think someone is breaking the rules, then trust the mods to deal with it.


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## malraux (Nov 27, 2010)

I'm betting that since the OP's temp ban expired, he'll not be back here till he gets booted again and thus more discussion is pointless.


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## Piratecat (Nov 27, 2010)

Ahem. Specifically not addressing the content of your post here, [MENTION=31734]Infiniti2000[/MENTION], but rather the post itself, what's our rule when you have a comment on moderation? Don't discuss it in-thread. Instead, always report a problem or shoot the moderator (myself included!) a PM. You know that.

But hey, I'm here. To answer your question, this post didn't trigger my Moderator Senses(tm). It's meta about another board (which is okay in itself), and it's trying to incite a board war (which definitely isn't okay), but it got shut down so successfully and completely by reasonable EN Worlders that no moderation was needed. We'd always rather have people self-moderate instead of having to step in, so this example of community knowledge and wisdom seemed like a far more effective way to address the problem than a pronouncement from on high.

That being said, I acknowledge the complete hilarity we would have wrung out of giving the original poster a 24 hour suspension for breaking EN World's rules. We try not to be quixotic when it comes to these things, though, and a sense of perspective is often far more effective.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 27, 2010)

> Great Googling, but I have actually taken Torts, and proximate cause isn't necessary for products liability (at least not between the company and the harm).




Gee, and I've only been a practicing attorney since 1996.

From another attorney's website:


> Proximate cause" is a legal term for the type of causation that must be proved before a person can be found to be legally responsible for another person’s injury or damage to the person’s property.



IOW, proximate cause is crucial in determining liability in most liability cases.  Exceptions exist, but this is where the enquiry begins.


> Either way, whether the lawsuit would be successful or not isn't important. The point is that it is a liability issue either way. And I'm not sure how banning users who modify guns is protecting databases, but whatever.




Colt could not be liable for someone modifying one of their guns unless they made their weapons more easily modifiable than the industry standard OR if they provided the information on how to do so.

The banning practice protects databases by not giving the authorities much leverage with which to seek search warrants forcing disclosure.


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## Ardulac (Nov 27, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Gee, and I've only been a practicing attorney since 1996.
> 
> From another attorney's website:




Yeah, okay.  I thought you were referring to the sort of proximate cause that was dealt with in cases like Palsgraf.



> Colt could not be liable for someone modifying one of their guns unless they made their weapons more easily modifiable than the industry standard OR if they provided the information on how to do so.




And I assume that they would stop discussion to prevent it from looking like they were providing such information, however:



> The banning practice protects databases by not giving the authorities much leverage with which to seek search warrants forcing disclosure.




That's a good point, and something it makes sense for them to be wary of.  I don't see how it connects to the WotC situation, since I doubt they are nearly as likely to be served with warrants.  And any warrants they would receive would probably be related to enforcement of their own IP, so I'd expect them to be cooperative.


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## mudbunny (Nov 27, 2010)

Ardulac said:


> I think [WotC] should be more open to modding




Based on the conversation that Paolo had a couple of weeks ago where he asked for some people who make tools that interface with the Compendium, as well as what I have been telling them about tools like iPlay4E and MasterPlan, I would be very surprised if something wasn't in the works.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 27, 2010)

Colt was just picked at random: nearly ANY company you care to name is likely to be hostile to posts on their website regarding aftermarket modifications to their products.

Exceptions doubtlessly exist, but they'd be rare.


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## ourchair (Nov 27, 2010)

I do think that being banned for mentioning it is a bit much...

...and I do agree that WotC mods have the right to say what people shouldn't or should be allowed to talk about on their forums insofar as a topic may have a relationship to the use of their IP....

...but it's only a 24 hour ban.

It's possibly a reactionary maneuver by a mod, that may have overshot his mark in terms of what he should be keeping track of. But it's not say, a lengthy ban, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## ourchair (Nov 27, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Honestly, after LOOKING at CBLoader I think the complaints against it are harsh. It doesn't steal or copy data etc. All it does is let you MANUALLY edit the XML and extract parts of it into a separate file that you can maintain or add home brew stuff, then it merges your homebrew/modifications into the actual file that CB loads. That way when they update the file your changes don't get nuked. You can do exactly the same stuff without CBLoader, you'd just need some professional quality XML editing tools (you'd probably want these ANYWAY) and a knowledge of XSLT.
> 
> Of course WotC can make whatever rules they want for their forum, so in that sense the OP has little complain about. They don't like CBLoader, so you can't talk about it there. AFAICT without having actually run it though the thing is harmless and probably kind of handy.



This.

One can actually make a case for whether or not the CBLoader is doing anything 'wrong' on a legal/IP dimension.

But defensible legality of the CBLoader is not the only factor in the suspension/ban.


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## RHGreen (Nov 27, 2010)

*Yeah, not so much. Remember just a few posts ago when I explained that we have no tolerance for board wars? A insult-filled rant against the WotC boards is not what we want to see here. No more, please.

Post removed by Admin. And since I think this thread is about done, closed it goes as well.  - PCat*


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