# What can WotC do in OneD&D to make the DM's Guide worth buying?



## Clint_L (Nov 5, 2022)

It's a serious question. The "Big Three" books of D&D have always been the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. The DM's Guide has always sounded like it is really important, but I don't think it has ever been an essential text in any version of D&D, aside from being where we hide the magic items (for some reason).

So what can actually make this book worth buying and reading, while remaining true to the basic 5e toolkit?


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 5, 2022)

Slip a $50 bill into each copy.


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## darjr (Nov 5, 2022)

Have you read the DMG?


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## Clint_L (Nov 5, 2022)

Wow, snarky comment. That was useful. Let's assume that I wouldn't have made this thread if I had not. I still have my AD&D DM's Guide, for that matter. It was also the least useful book in that edition.

I'm thinking that the DM's Guide needs a clearly defined purpose. The PHB and MM have that. The DM's Guide is more like a bunch of half worked out optional rules and thinly sketched ideas that no one uses. If you asked WotC, "what is the purpose of the DM's Guide," I'm not sure that they could give you a clear answer. So what should a "Guide" actually do?

Well, the first thing a guide does is show you how to do things so that you can learn to do them yourself. So presumably, this book should be guiding Dungeon Masters to do the hardest job in gaming: running an RPG table.

But let's assume that you have been doing this for awhile and don't really feel you need that kind of guiding? Maybe you are ready to try new stuff - modify your game, etc. That's where I think optional rules would still play a role.

So I would basically divide the DM's Guide into two sections. The first would be geared towards teaching DM's how to run games, and it would be built around a series of short adventure arcs, similar to the ones in _Explorer's Guide to Wildemount._ Those could be used to teach new DMs how to do the job, and though short, would vary in complexity. There would be one designed to show how to start a campaign (get the party together to solve a fairly straightforward problem - rescue the captives from the gnoll cave, that kind of thing). Another might have a simple traps'n'monsters dungeon to show DM's how to pace a session and build in a variety of challenges. And so on. I would make the adventures very setting agnostic, or else include a simple setting guide that could be easily transplanted into the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc.

The back half I would clearly label as optional rules for more advanced DMs. Here I would include the various systems (critical hit tables, etc.) that can add more complexity and rules depth for those who want them. Whatever was in here, I would make sure that it was fully play tested and complete, rather than the often too thinly sketched material in the current DMG.

I would move magic items to the PHB. I think they are currently only in the DM's Guide because that's where Gygax originally put them, probably to give people a reason to actually purchase the book.


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## darjr (Nov 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Wow, snarky comment.



Not meant to be snarky?

I didn’t want to assume. 

I know a lot of people who play who have not read it and a lot of folks online make commentary about things that they are surprised to find in the DMG. Even folks who HAVE read it. It’s kinda a meme.


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## pointofyou (Nov 5, 2022)

There was a big thread that was at least adjacent to this.









						D&D 5E - Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?
					

Hi! I'm writing this thread because in this forum I'm noticing several thread speaking on the role of the DMG: For some people it's a good reference book but not a starter book. For others the Starters and Essential Kits should be the real "starting" DM guide, for other the PHB, except for the...




					www.enworld.org
				




The upshot is that some people want changes to the DMG and some other people want minimal or no changes to the DMG and neither group thinks the other has read the DMG. Some of the people who want changes listed at least some of the changes they want.


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## Amrûnril (Nov 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> I would move magic items to the PHB. I think they are currently only in the DM's Guide because that's where Gygax originally put them, probably to give people a reason to actually purchase the book.




My perspective is that the PHB is primarily for player-facing options. Magic items are used by players, but the player can't generally choose between them in the way they can choose between races, classes/subclasses, backgrounds or spells. Instead, they have access to the specific items they come across in the course of gameplay. This is primarily a matter of worldbuilding/adventure building, so I think the DMG is the best place for magic items.


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## Yora (Nov 5, 2022)

Return to having actual advice on gamemastering skills in the book.
1st edition was a big mess 43 years ago, but at least it tried. Star Wars Roleplaying Game had a great Gamemaster Handbook back in the 90s that didn't need any additional game mechanics or tables to fill out its page count.
Make the book an actual guide, not just a collection of mechanics that didn't fit in the PHB.


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## Lojaan (Nov 5, 2022)

It's gonna maybe sound weird but... make the DMG something that people _want_ to read?

I think that so few people having read it shows you the real problem. DMs just wanna have fun yeah? And the DMG is a full on textbook.

So to add to this thread - what do people think could make people want to read the DMG? What could make it fun and interesting?

Here are some ideas:

Articles from high profile DMs on how they do things
Super cool art
Really basic instructions on how to actually DM, specifically how to:

Describe the scene
Invite player action
Narrate action results (and repeat)
(Include examples of what NOT to do)
Weapon and armour game formula and advice on how to create your own, same for spells and classes
Some monster ecologies
How to world build using geopolitics (like the great YouTube channel by Baron de Ropp, https://youtube.com/c/DungeonMasterpiece)
Tips on how to invoke certain player/game experience (horror/fey whimsy/mystery etc...)
How to have fun as a DM (and what to do when it stops being fun)
No DnD is better than bad DnD

That's just off the top of my head.

Who knows - if the DMG was as much fun as the PHB then maybe we would have more DMs.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 5, 2022)

I never read the 4e dmg but the 2e & 3.x dmg had good insight into running the game & the structure behind  mechanical crunch.  The 5e dmg however is like a grab bag of "PEACH my homebrew" that in far too many cases fails at rising to a level that wouldn't get mocked for being poorly thought out & incomplete.


Amrûnril said:


> My perspective is that the PHB is primarily for player-facing options. Magic items are used by players, but the player can't generally choose between them in the way they can choose between races, classes/subclasses, backgrounds or spells. Instead, they have access to the specific items they come across in the course of gameplay. This is primarily a matter of worldbuilding/adventure building, so I think the DMG is the best place for magic items.



I agree with most of this but having the magic items in the dmg when most players neither own nor read it presents two problems for me as a GM, magic items belong in the PHB or some other player facing book just like spells.

Players don't have any idea what magic items they want or they only want the very specific magic items mentioned as being needed for some broken hypercharop "build" they read about.  If it's not available they just shut down  or keep looking for another place to get the thing they weren't going to get.
As a GM I say "you find xyz" and the whole table effectively crosses their arms wanting me to explain what it is.  Worse they often don't write down the details & make me look it up again when they use it.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 5, 2022)

I would like the DMG to be a tool kit.  

I believe everything you need to play the game should be in the PHB.  The DMG should be a mix of DIY / modification toolkit and a deeper dive in various approaches to running the game. Something like Cortex Prime for 5e that gives the DM all sorts of bits and bobs that they can use to tweak and customize their game.  

I would also like much better organization, cross-referencing, side-bar notes and other tools to make it a much more useful reference in print.  Heck, even in D&D Beyond I keep forgetting where to find a particular rule and find it takes too long to look up, even with its search capability.  
I think the current DMG has a lot of great stuff in it, but I just find it very frustrating to use when prepping a game, much less trying to look things up in game. Even if they kept all the same content but better organization and cross referencing, I'd buy it.  Though I hope they add even more options and ideas.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Wow, snarky comment.




I think they were just being silly, because of the running joke (but not really a joke) that "nobody has read the DMG".


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## Retreater (Nov 5, 2022)

Here's what I'd like. 

Move magic items to the PHB. I consider that player-facing anyway (especially when their characters have the ability to craft magic items.)
Drop the high-minded "how to be a DM" advice. There are better examples of actual plays and DM advice online.
List many examples of traps (including complex ones) and environmental hazards
Have a completely overhauled "player rewards" section. How to award XP, treasure, etc.
Downtime rules
Encounter design
Travel vignettes, skill challenges
But basically, I think we keep getting DMs Guides because of tradition. I don't think it's a necessary book. I'd like to see a two-core book model.
Treasure, crafting, downtime rules in the PHB.
Traps, encounter design, hazards, skill challenges, etc., in the MM (adversary guide?)
Have the DM's advice stuff on D&D Beyond columns and in-print in the various "beginner DM" adventures.


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## SakanaSensei (Nov 5, 2022)

I want a toolbox, something I can come back to time and again to generate content for my players, whether that be dungeons, faction creation, world building, NPC creation, magic items, etc. I’d also like a set of optional rules that give the game various feels, from “use these rules for gritty aesthetic games” to “use these rules for demigod PCs.”

Basically, I want WotC to go ahead and hire Kevin Crawford.


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Wow, snarky comment. That was useful. Let's assume that I wouldn't have made this thread if I had not. I still have my AD&D DM's Guide, for that matter. It was also the least useful book in that edition.
> 
> I'm thinking that the DM's Guide needs a clearly defined purpose. The PHB and MM have that. The DM's Guide is more like a bunch of half worked out optional rules and thinly sketched ideas that no one uses. If you asked WotC, "what is the purpose of the DM's Guide," I'm not sure that they could give you a clear answer. So what should a "Guide" actually do?
> 
> ...



Having them in the DMG also discourages players from thinking of them as just another character option (like they were in 4e) and that's the way I want it.


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## Malmuria (Nov 5, 2022)

The information can be more or less the same, but the organization and layout might be improved.  The writing can be more succinct as well.

Section 1: How to Run the Game

session 0, social contract, organizing sessions, safety tools, problem players
how to run each pillar of the game (social, exploration, combat)
how to prepare for a session
designing a (combat) encounter

Section 2: Worldbuilding

Making and running NPCs and Groups
Villains, Patrons, Factions

Making a starting town and starting region
Designing an adventure location (dungeon, etc)
Designing a larger world (_brief_ overview)
*put random tables in an appendix
Section 3: Reference 

Magic items (organize by type of item)
Traps, puzzles, poisons, etc
Section 4: Additional and Optional rules
* The game could benefit from modularity in this respect.  This section could indicate how to modify the game to make it low magic, high magic, or introduce genre elements (horror, pulp, s&s, etc).

Appendix: random tables for generating adventures, locations, npcs


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 5, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> I never read the 4e dmg but the 2e & 3.x dmg had good insight into running the game & the structure behind  mechanical crunch.  The 5e dmg however is like a grab bag of "PEACH my homebrew" that in far too many cases fails at rising to a level that wouldn't get mocked for being poorly thought out & incomplete.
> 
> I agree with most of this but having the magic items in the dmg when most players neither own nor read it presents two problems for me as a GM, magic items belong in the PHB or some other player facing book just like spells.
> 
> ...



That's still better to me than having the players present lists of magic items they want me to give them, like I'm Santa Claus.  The 4e DMG encouraged that., and i don't care for it.  If a PC wants something specific, they can try to buy it, quest for it, or make it themselves.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 5, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Having them in the DMG also discourages players from thinking of them as just another character option (like they were in 4e) and that's the way I want it.



4e did a lot that helped _encourage_ players to think that way


Micah Sweet said:


> That's still better to me than having the players present lists of magic items they want me to give them, like I'm Santa Claus.  *The 4e DMG encouraged that., and i don't care for it.  If a PC wants something specific, they can try to buy it, quest for it, or make it themselves.*



I agree completely on the bold part.


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## GetInTheHole (Nov 5, 2022)

Publish it.

Many people will buy it regardless. Like me.


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## Dausuul (Nov 5, 2022)

First and foremost, organize the damn thing. There's a bunch of useful stuff in the 5E DMG, but I can never find it when I need it at the table, because it's buried in some randomly named subsection of a totally unrelated chapter and the index is a bad joke. So I end up just winging it even though I _know there is a rule and I read it once._

(And D&D Beyond does not help. Quite the reverse. DDB is pretty decent at looking up things where you know the name, but it's terrible for finding things by topic.)

Second, where optional rules are provided, put more thought and playtesting into them, and address the common corner cases. Most of the optional rules in the 5E DMG seem to be just off-the-cuff suggestions; I might as well come to ENWorld and ask for ideas.

Third, provide toolkits. Noncombat challenges are a great example of an area where this would be helpful. Just as the Monster Manual provides a whole lot of components from which to assemble combat encounters, the DMG could provide components to assemble social encounters or exploration challenges. _(Please do not refer me to 4E skill challenges. I have an extensive rant on the subject, but this is a 1D&D thread.)_


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## UngainlyTitan (Nov 5, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Here's what I'd like.
> 
> Move magic items to the PHB. I consider that player-facing anyway (especially when their characters have the ability to craft magic items.)



Agreed


Retreater said:


> Drop the high-minded "how to be a DM" advice. There are better examples of actual plays and DM advice online.



Quibble, here something along the scripted example of play from the Old D&D Basic Red Box would be good but I think that should be a free online document, referenced in the DMG and the SRD. That should discuss, player agendas, and different campaign styles and how one may implement them and resources on that topic.


Retreater said:


> List many examples of traps (including complex ones) and environmental hazards
> Have a completely overhauled "player rewards" section. How to award XP, treasure, etc.



OK.


Retreater said:


> Downtime rules



Absolutely


Retreater said:


> Encounter design



OK, I would add they should be fairly explicit on their encounter assumption and what to do it you find it too easy for your party. Upping the CR vs more lower level monsters. 


Retreater said:


> Travel vignettes, skill challenges



This should be a big section because there are a number of incompatible popular approaches to the topic of travel and exploration.
I think a detailed review of the old D&D resource management hex crawl is in order and then go on to more relaxed version where the encounter pattern is followed but without the resource management and how it breaks down around levels 7 to 10, due to assumed magic (items) and how things might be adjusted. 
Then discuss the journey and skill challenge approaches to wilderness exploration.


Retreater said:


> But basically, I think we keep getting DMs Guides because of tradition. I don't think it's a necessary book. I'd like to see a two-core book model.
> Treasure, crafting, downtime rules in the PHB.
> Traps, encounter design, hazards, skill challenges, etc., in the MM (adversary guide?)
> Have the DM's advice stuff on D&D Beyond columns and in-print in the various "beginner DM" adventures.



An Extended discussion of different world building assumptions, gritty and/or low magic, level caps below level 20 and so forth.


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## overgeeked (Nov 6, 2022)

Yora said:


> Return to having actual advice on gamemastering skills in the book.
> 
> 1st edition was a big mess 43 years ago, but at least it tried. Star Wars Roleplaying Game had a great Gamemaster Handbook back in the 90s that didn't need any additional game mechanics or tables to fill out its page count.
> 
> Make the book an actual guide, not just a collection of mechanics that didn't fit in the PHB.



Yeah, that. There’s a lot of wonderful advice in the 4E DMGs that’s still relevant. Restating the GM advice from Star Wars is a good idea. Taking up DCC’s notion of “quest for it” would be great. 

Maybe hire a few famous DMs and DM-advice people to write the thing. Matt Mercer, Matt Colville, Brennan Lee Mulligan, Mike Shea, Professor DM, Ben Milton, WebDM, etc.


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## darjr (Nov 6, 2022)

There was some great stuff in Dragon and on line in their various efforts too. Like some of the stuff in Iomadra.


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## Shiroiken (Nov 6, 2022)

The big issue is the divide is styles of DMing. Every edition prior had a built in default game style, which the DMG was written to support, but 5E is intentionally style agnostic. The issue is that they simply ignored the problem, rather than addressing it, leaving it rather... underwhelming. Instead, they should have the first chapter addressing the most popular styles, providing the advantages and disadvantages of each, allowing the DM to decide for themselves how they want to run the game.



Clint_L said:


> Wow, snarky comment. That was useful. Let's assume that I wouldn't have made this thread if I had not.I still have my AD&D DM's Guide, for that matter. It was also the least useful book in that edition.



I got no idea what you're talking about. The 1E DMG is amazing, and even if you didn't think so, the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide would like a word about who's "useful." The 2E DMG wasn't great IMO, but there's a lot of garbage in 2E that wasn't useful at all.



Clint_L said:


> I would move magic items to the PHB. I think they are currently only in the DM's Guide because that's where Gygax originally put them, probably to give people a reason to actually purchase the book.



Magic items are DM facing, because they're the ones who make them available. The DM can decide that certain items don't fit their game, and simply don't issue them (for example, I'll never give out a +x shield). Additionally, cursed items would be awful, since players would just know what they do and how to avoid them. Finally, you'd be pushing a large page count into a book that's already quite full.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 6, 2022)

Shiroiken said:


> Additionally, cursed items would be awful, since players would just know what they do and how to avoid them. Finally, you'd be pushing a large page count into a book that's already quite full.



Not if example & custom curses are secondary things that the GM can attach to any item


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## Clint_L (Nov 6, 2022)

Amrûnril said:


> My perspective is that the PHB is primarily for player-facing options. Magic items are used by players, but the player can't generally choose between them in the way they can choose between races, classes/subclasses, backgrounds or spells. Instead, they have access to the specific items they come across in the course of gameplay. This is primarily a matter of worldbuilding/adventure building, so I think the DMG is the best place for magic items.



I totally get your point and I thought about that. I think you have a point about them not being a "player-facing" option to the same extent that non-magical items are. Although, this is a bit of an arbitrary line, since we do put non-magical power-ups in the PHB even when they aren't easily accessible to players, especially at low levels (classic example: full plate), and given that many settings have shops that sell magic items, especially the more common ones, the distinction between an expensive non-magical item and an equally expensive magic one is not clear, other than the word "magic." Like, why should a player be able to know that if they save enough gold they can up their power by getting a suit of full plate, but the existence of a +1 shield is somehow best left as a mystery?

I think when Gygax put them in the DM's Guide it was during an era when the DM/player division was more exaggerated, when the DM was expected to live behind their DM screen and deliver mysteries. Even then, that was sort of BS - I dunno about others, but back in the day all of us read all the source books and probably owned our own copies whether we were DMs or not, so we all knew exactly what a Vorpal Sword could do, etc. Similarly, every player today can have instant access to what magic items are out there, so all we do by splitting them into the DM's Guide is create a reason for people to have to buy the DM's Guide.


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## phuong (Nov 6, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> It's a serious question. The "Big Three" books of D&D have always been the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. The DM's Guide has always sounded like it is really important, but I don't think it has ever been an essential text in any version of D&D, aside from being where we hide the magic items (for some reason).
> 
> So what can actually make this book worth buying and reading, while remaining true to the basic 5e toolkit?



Its worth buying for the magic items.  It used to be worth buying because they stuck required PHB content like combat specifics into the DMG.

I'm not sure that we need a DMG that is "required reading", such that you can't play the game without it.  

I feel most people read one DMG, and that one reading of some edition was sufficient, such that future DMGs are just a reference lookup.

I don't think this is a bad thing, we want to streamline our experience, not make the requirements heftier.

But if you want to make the DMG more interesting to read, idk maybe you could put some beautiful examples of running a game with magnificent prose, real examples of how to handle common situations.  Things like that for a novice DM.  But old timers still don't need to read it.


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## Clint_L (Nov 6, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> I think they were just being silly, because of the running joke (but not really a joke) that "nobody has read the DMG".



Fair, but that's my point: for those saying to basically keep it as it is...why should anyone buy it? Why is it considered one of the three "core" books when, magic items aside, you can play the game fine without it?

I'm not saying my ideas are the best for how to improve it. But surely it can be made more essential. Or can it? Maybe the main problem with the DM's Guide and the reason it has never felt essential is that the PHB and MM are all the game has ever really needed.


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 6, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> I totally get your point and I thought about that. I think you have a point about them not being a "player-facing" option to the same extent that non-magical items are. Although, this is a bit of an arbitrary line, since we do put non-magical power-ups in the PHB even when they aren't easily accessible to players, especially at low levels (classic example: full plate), and given that many settings have shops that sell magic items, especially the more common ones, the distinction between an expensive non-magical item and an equally expensive magic one is not clear, other than the word "magic." Like, why should a player be able to know that if they save enough gold they can up their power by getting a suit of full plate, but the existence of a +1 shield is somehow best left as a mystery?
> 
> I think when Gygax put them in the DM's Guide it was during an era when the DM/player division was more exaggerated, when the DM was expected to live behind their DM screen and deliver mysteries. Even then, that was sort of BS - I dunno about others, but back in the day all of us read all the source books and probably owned our own copies whether we were DMs or not, so we all knew exactly what a Vorpal Sword could do, etc. Similarly, every player today can have instant access to what magic items are out there, so all we do by splitting them into the DM's Guide is create a reason for people to have to buy the DM's Guide.



It should be noted that 5e wanted to label magic items as optional, possibly as a reaction to their opposite status in 4e, and that's another reason to return them to the DMG.  Also, putting them in the PH tells you that default D&D has magic shops.  I don't know about you, but I don't want that to be the default.


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## aco175 (Nov 6, 2022)

A section on magic items.  Add how to modify and craft them.  Say you wanted a sword that shoots a lightning bolt, what does this do to rarity, cost, crafting?  Maybe modify attunement, but not sure how.

A section on encounters.  Add encounter charts based on locations and how to modify them.  Examples of mixing monsters for varied challenge ratings.  Maybe skip the wandering harlot table.  

A section on style of play.  What is a sandbox and how that differs from a linear campaign.  Do you need to make encounters balanced or do you just make the world and the PCs react or die?  What about a political game vs hack and slash.  

Add a starter town like 4e did with Fallcrest.  Show how you add secrets and hooks in with the NPCs.  


A lot of all this can be found online and even here where we talk about it, but put it all in one place and people will buy it.


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 6, 2022)

aco175 said:


> A section on magic items.  Add how to modify and craft them.  Say you wanted a sword that shoots a lightning bolt, what does this do to rarity, cost, crafting?  Maybe modify attunement, but not sure how.
> 
> A section on encounters.  Add encounter charts based on locations and how to modify them.  Examples of mixing monsters for varied challenge ratings.  Maybe skip the wandering harlot table.
> 
> ...



Apparently, just putting the name "D&D" on it is enough for people to buy it (or so I've been told).


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## Maxperson (Nov 6, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> It's a serious question. The "Big Three" books of D&D have always been the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. The DM's Guide has always sounded like it is really important, but I don't think it has ever been an essential text in any version of D&D, aside from being where we hide the magic items (for some reason).
> 
> So what can actually make this book worth buying and reading, while remaining true to the basic 5e toolkit?



It was important in 1e and 2e as it had actual rules in those editions, including how to run combats.  3e started the DMG as primarily advice + magic items and traps. As a result, I didn't bother to buy the 3.5 DMG when it came out.  I can see the 5.5e DMG suffering a similar fate.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Nov 6, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Wow, snarky comment. That was useful. Let's assume that I wouldn't have made this thread if I had not. I still have my AD&D DM's Guide, for that matter. It was also the least useful book in that edition.



There's been a running joke on ENWorld around no one reading the DMG. Maybe you missed those posts.


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## Maxperson (Nov 6, 2022)

I really don't want to see magic items in the PHB.  They are a DM resource to hand out to the players and should remain in the DMG.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 6, 2022)

I think it should be chock full (25%?  More?) of advice on _how to DM_.  I might learn something myself, or at least it might cause me to reflect more consciously on something I hadn't thought very deeply about.  But really I don't want it for myself, I want it for all the newcomers, in order to make the hobby stronger.  Heck, it could even present multiple conflicting opinions on how to DM.  Anything to get people to be more intentional/deliberate in the approach they take.

Magic items: although I wax nostalgic thinking about reading the magic item section of the original DMG, with flashlight in the wee hours, back in the 8th grade, I wish they'd dedicate some of that page count toward the creation of unique magic items.

Encounters: not just how to compute CRs, but how to design encounters (and play monsters) to make combats more exciting/challenging.  

Travel: I'd love to see some kind of intelligent subsystem for travel, something akin to what Cubicle 7 did for AiMe (and is now releasing separately).


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## Shiroiken (Nov 6, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Not if example & custom curses are secondary things that the GM can attach to any item



I kinda wish that was a thing, but it's really hard to do for so many different types of items.



Clint_L said:


> Fair, but that's my point: for those saying to basically keep it as it is...why should anyone buy it? Why is it considered one of the three "core" books when, magic items aside, you can play the game fine without it?



There are a lot of game rules in the DMG, they're just hidden due to the poor organization. You can run the game "fine" without them, but you force the DM to make up those rules. Examples include item AC & HP, social interactions, secret doors, etc.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 6, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Here's what I'd like.
> 
> Move magic items to the PHB. I consider that player-facing anyway (especially when their characters have the ability to craft magic items.)



Magic items belong in the DMG just as monsters belong in the monster manual.  The PHB would otherwise just get too unwieldy.  Of course this is all a print problem. I almost entirely use DnD Beyond to look up magic items using filterable list section it has for the purpose. Personally, if I were relying on print, I would want all the magic items from the various rule and adventure books printed in a separate book on magic items.  I would also prefer spells to be in a separate book.  I would just find that must more convenient to use in game. Even when I was running games in person, we used spell cards.  I realize I'm in the minority here, which is fine.  As long as I have D&D beyond, it doesn't really matter to me. But I don't think I've look up a spell or magic item in the PHB or DMG in over 5 years.


Retreater said:


> Drop the high-minded "how to be a DM" advice. There are better examples of actual plays and DM advice online.



The print books are for people who want to engage the rules in print. If you are going to design the book on the assumption that people should consult online sources, why have print books?  The DM guide should, in my opinion double down the how to DM.  The basics of how to run a game should be in the PHP, but the DMG should give advice, examples, and tools to help you improve your DM skills and run various styles of games.


Retreater said:


> List many examples of traps (including complex ones) and environmental hazards



Yes. 100% agree.


Retreater said:


> Have a completely overhauled "player rewards" section. How to award XP, treasure, etc.



Agree. The default XP rules plus perhaps a short treatment of simple milestone leveling should be covered in the PHP, but the DMG should do a deeper dive into different approaches. XP for non-combat, mini-milestone approaches, etc.


Retreater said:


> Downtime rules



Yeah. There is some good stuff for downtime, but it is currently spread accress at least three books: PHP, DMG, and Xanathars.  I would like to see downtime rules consolidated and expanded.  Included in this could more fleshed out options for stronghold rules, faction & reputation rules, and expanding on the Xanathar complication tables, which I find to be a bit uninspired.


Retreater said:


> Encounter design



This is one area I am confident they are going to redo. I would like to see encounter design to include mechanics for adding environmental challenges into your encounters.


Retreater said:


> Travel vignettes, skill challenges



Yes please!  I would also like more ideas on how to make passive abilities more flavorful. More tips on how to balance dungeon crawling/exploration between a constant roll to check slog on the one hand and auto-pilot passive checks on the other.  I think skill challenges has a place in this.


Retreater said:


> But basically, I think we keep getting DMs Guides because of tradition. I don't think it's a necessary book. I'd like to see a two-core book model.



Personally, DnD Beyond has me past the book model. I would love to have DND Beyond to continue organizing all of its content by major categories.  I should never have to select a "source".  But for those who like to work with the print books, I think you would end up with huge, unwieldy tome that would intimidate new players, and annoy players who want a way to quickly reference a rule in print.  For print, I would prefer going the opposite direction:  Put spells and magic items in separate books.  Have PHP, DMG, MM, Spell Book (SB), and a Treasure Chest (magic items, expanded treasure and equipment items, tables, and rules - crafting rules could go in here as well)


Retreater said:


> Treasure, crafting, downtime rules in the PHB.





Retreater said:


> Traps, encounter design, hazards, skill challenges, etc., in the MM (adversary guide?)
> Have the DM's advice stuff on D&D Beyond columns and in-print in the various "beginner DM" adventures.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 6, 2022)

I'd like it to be two or three books, not one.

One book full of magic items and how to make them, change them, etc.

The next two could be one or two books....
One book with advice and examples on how to run the game.

One book with all kinds of rules, RAW and optional.


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## Catolias (Nov 7, 2022)

At risk of crossing the streams, I do like how PF2e just has a single core rulebook covering players and the GM. A seperate book exists for those wanting to lift their game (so to speak).

Downside: it’s a hefty book. Upside from the downside: the glossary serves as an index and is really useful. 

A lesson for WoTC?


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

Catolias said:


> At risk of crossing the streams, I do like how PF2e just has a single core rulebook covering players and the GM. A seperate book exists for those wanting to lift their game (so to speak).
> 
> Downside: it’s a hefty book. Upside from the downside: the glossary serves as an index and is really useful.
> 
> A lesson for WoTC?



That's certainly an option. I kind of like, bit doubt they'll take


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## Yaarel (Nov 7, 2022)

In my veiw:

The *Players Handbook* includes ALL of the rules for playing D&D. It especially needs to include skill info, like Social Reactions to Charisma and assessment of Athletic jumps and such! It should be possible to play a (humano-centric) game of D&D with nothing but the Players Handbook.

The *DMs Guide* should be for all of the "modular" options and variants. The catch is, these modular rules must be well balanced and EASY to implement if the DM wants too. The modular rules should coordinate with Players Handbook rules in away that minimizes conflicts and confusion.

The "modules" include more info for grid style, adding other abilities beyond the six, varying rest to alter the tone of the setting, and so on.

Meanwhile, the DMs Guide also handles all worldbuilding, including for settings that are local, regional, global, and planar. The Players Handbook should avoid discussions about the planes if any. Even races beyond Human work better as part of the Setting.

Unless the DM is using an official *Setting Guide*, such as for Forgotten Realms or Ravnica, the DM will rely heavily on the DMs Guide to create the world in which the adventures are happening.


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## Shiroiken (Nov 7, 2022)

Catolias said:


> At risk of crossing the streams, I do like how PF2e just has a single core rulebook covering players and the GM. A seperate book exists for those wanting to lift their game (so to speak).
> 
> Downside: it’s a hefty book. Upside from the downside: the glossary serves as an index and is really useful.
> 
> A lesson for WoTC?



BECMI has the Rules Compendium that does exactly this, and it's an excellent book. There's advantages and disadvantages to putting everything together, but likely the 3 book model is particularly profitable for WotC.


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## delericho (Nov 7, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> It was important in 1e and 2e as it had actual rules in those editions, including how to run combats.



Nitpick: it was important in 1st Ed.

By 2nd Ed the rules for combat had moved to the PHB, and so the DMG for that edition was needed only for the magic items and treasure tables. They then padded out the rest of the book with some truly terrible advice for the aspiring DM.



Maxperson said:


> 3e started the DMG as primarily advice + magic items and traps.



That's not really fair. The 3e DMG also had many, many pages of descriptions of doors, walls, and floors.


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## delericho (Nov 7, 2022)

As I said on one of the other threads, I'd suggest that DMG should be aimed at intermediate DMs - beginners are better off being guided to the Starter Set and/or the how-to videos that WotC have made available. Advanced DMs, meanwhile, may benefit from some of the tools made available, but will largely ignore any advice given anyway.

(That said, I should note that I'm not absolutely opposed to including a short "how to DM" chapter at the start of the book. I don't think that's the best use of very limited page count, but if it absolutely has to be there, it's not a deal-breaker.)

So, what should be in the book?

I'd suggest that it should contain how-to guides for that intermediate DM that will allow them to reliably build interesting and fun encounters, to build interesting and fun adventures of various types (the classic dungeon crawl, the mystery, the prison break...), campaigns of various types, and so on.

The idea being that our intermediate DM should be able to pick up the book, follow the step-by-step guide and get an output that is worth running and worth playing. (And, obviously, the book needs to make it clear that this is one way to create such things, not the way!)

The book should also include lengthy sections giving examples of a wide range of Exploration and Interaction challenges (complete with mechanics), a large section giving examples of traps and other hazards, and the appendix of magic items.

The book would also probably benefit from having fewer, but better fleshed out, optional systems.

One other thing: in addition to being fairly badly written and organized, the method presented for creating monsters doesn't match up at all with the actual monsters in the MM (probably because it was written before the playtest locked down the 'correct' numbers). This should be fixed - the output of that system really should be comparable to the MM. Since that mostly seems to be a matter of fixing the numbers in a key table, hopefully that can be done.

And a really good index is a must!


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## Yaarel (Nov 7, 2022)

I feel "traps and hazards" should be a section in the Monster Manual.


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## aco175 (Nov 7, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I feel "traps and hazards" should be a section in the Monster Manual.



I can see this as most traps add to the CR of the encounter.  It would also be handy to see and maybe be used more.


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## DEFCON 1 (Nov 7, 2022)

Maybe I'm one of the few people who DON'T want the DMG to have this whole big section on _"How To DM"_.  Because quite frankly... learning how to DM and what to focus on while DMing is such a personal and personal preference kind of thing that I in no way wish to see a single way proscribed as "here's the way to do it."

I've read how a lot of you people run your games here on EN World and know for a fact I would NEVER want to play in a lot of your games, LOL!  If the DMG was then giving us instructions on how to DM in the styles that some of you DM?  That would be horrible for someone like me!  The last thing I want is for more people to think that _your_ ways of DMing are the "proper" ways to do so, heh heh!  We've already got worshippers at the altars of The Alexandrian and the Angry DM... to have any one of their styles of DMing possibly become the "instructions" of how to do it in the DMG?  No thank you!  

And by the same token... if the DMG was to be all about MY methods (and folks like Matt Mercer, Matt Colville and the like) of narrative and story and throwing out the "board game rules" of D&D combat and mechanics even more than it does already (with the 'Rulings, Not Rules' mantra)... I think a whole crap-ton of you folks would absolutely FREAK.  You wouldn't want new players to learn to treat the game in my way either, because that would basically stomp out your preferred ways of playing the game over time too, players thinking your ways are "wrong" because those aren't what the DMG has taught them.

Learning to DM well is a personal thing that you only get better at and figure out your particular preferences as you do it.  Thus I am wholeheartedly in favor of what we have... which is the Starter Set (of whatever type it is) showing players the very generic and _baseline_ instruction of what the DM needs to do to run the game... but any additional _instruction_ on "how to do it" should be left to the DM's own devices, or websites, or YouTube videos, or whatever.  Let the DM who wants more info go out searching for it on their own... rather than proscribe a single way to do it in the Dungeon Master's Guide.


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## delericho (Nov 7, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I feel "traps and hazards" should be a section in the Monster Manual.



My only issue with that is that the MM is already the biggest of the core rulebooks, and it really should get the various monster tables that shouldn't be in the DMG. So unless there's a significant increase in page count or reduction in artwork (and I'd expect the opposite, on both counts), adding traps/hazards would come at the cost of dropping a significant number of monsters.

I suppose they could drop upper-level support from the core 3 to make room, but I'd rather they didn't do that either - if it's not in the core 3 then it's probably gone for good.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 7, 2022)

If they took magic items out of DMG completely and sold a fourth Book of Treasure...with _lots_ more magic items, tables for generating unique magic items, expanded Artifact and Sentient Weapon information, rules or at least guidelines for crafting magic items (and harvesting components from dead monsters?), etc...who would buy it?

I would.


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## bert1001 fka bert1000 (Nov 7, 2022)

I'd like all the default assumptions of the game design and expected game play to be explicitly outlined.  And then get to the optional rules.

Don't just have an optional 1 week long rest rule.    Lay out the assumptions of 6-8 combats a day as a balancing factor of the short rest mechanic as the context for a longer long rest.    Talk about different types of games and the potential implications of this assumption.

13th age had these great designer commentary boxes that got behind the thinking of design choices and how to change them up if you wanted to.

I think this kind of designers talking directly to the audience would have a lot of appeal to DMs as both an interesting read and a toolkit.


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## Clint_L (Nov 7, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> If they took magic items out of DMG completely and sold a fourth Book of Treasure...with _lots_ more magic items, tables for generating unique magic items, expanded Artifact and Sentient Weapon information, rules or at least guidelines for crafting magic items (and harvesting components from dead monsters?), etc...who would buy it?
> 
> I would.



Me too. Instead of the DM's Guide. In fact, _Traps and Treasures_ was one of the OD&D books, before there was a DM's Guide.


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## Clint_L (Nov 7, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Maybe I'm one of the few people who DON'T want the DMG to have this whole big section on _"How To DM"_.  Because quite frankly... learning how to DM and what to focus on while DMing is such a personal and personal preference kind of thing that I in no way wish to see a single way proscribed as "here's the way to do it."
> 
> I've read how a lot of you people run your games here on EN World and know for a fact I would NEVER want to play in a lot of your games, LOL!  If the DMG was then giving us instructions on how to DM in the styles that some of you DM?  That would be horrible for someone like me!  The last thing I want is for more people to think that _your_ ways of DMing are the "proper" ways to do so, heh heh! We've already got worshippers at the altars of The Alexandrian and the Angry DM... to have any one of their styles of DMing possibly become the "instructions" of how to do it in the DMG? No thank you!
> 
> ...



When I wrote about it being more a Guide for DMs, this is basically what I had in mind for the first half of the book - like the Starter Set ("Phandelver," in particular), but with even more options. Couldn't agree more about not trying to dictate the _style_ of the DM, and just trying to focus on the mechanics of how the game works.

I think it would be pretty cool if an eager young DM picked up a copy of the DMG and went home with a bunch of little ready to play adventures in their pocket so they and their group could start trying out the game right away...and then towards the back of the book could discover ever more advanced options to tease their appetites.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> If they took magic items out of DMG completely and sold a fourth Book of Treasure...with _lots_ more magic items, tables for generating unique magic items, expanded Artifact and Sentient Weapon information, rules or at least guidelines for crafting magic items (and harvesting components from dead monsters?), etc...who would buy it?
> 
> I would.



Ya, that's what I was trying to say above.....I think this book is more likely to sell to existing DMs than ANOTHER DMG for a game that is supposedly not changing much.....


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## tetrasodium (Nov 7, 2022)

Shiroiken said:


> I kinda wish that was a thing, but it's really hard to do for so many different types of items.
> 
> 
> There are a lot of game rules in the DMG, they're just hidden due to the poor organization. You can run the game "fine" without them, but you force the DM to make up those rules. Examples include item AC & HP, social interactions, secret doors, etc.



It wouldn't be that tough.  Since the GM is choosing them rather than players general lists like weapon curses armor curses & misc equipment curses can be made up for the gm to pick from.  Maybe _this_ item gets a curse that presents a meaningful drawback to users of that item but _that_ item gets a curse that makes the group not just give it to the hyperoptimized PC who needs more optimization least.  They don't even need cost offsets they provide if the section includes good guidance on why a hm might want to attach curses & the kinds of impacts they impose so the gm can make good judgements in their use before learning from trial & error..


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## payn (Nov 7, 2022)

3E DMG II and PF1 Gamemastery guides are my favorites. I often go to the DMG looking for what those supplements provide. 

I'd say focus on advanced topics like rules explanation, techniques, and how to make/run campaigns. Leave being a GM 101 to intro products and online resources. YMMV.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

I'm beginning to move to the idea that there should be a beginner DMG, that is much shorter (and much longer than the starter sets), and that most of that should be outside the "advanced DMG." Of course, that gives them more products to sell, which might be good or bad....but it goes with my thought that magic items and foraging and stuff should be in a different book (which would sell, no problem). 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a starter DMG and advanced DMG (which, ya, I already said that, but I like it even more as I type it out).


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## CleverNickName (Nov 7, 2022)

I disagree with the implication that "the DMG isn't worth buying."  I use mine all the time.  Just the other day I was digging through the Optional Rules and Variants section (looking for ways to balance a house-rule, ended up going with Renown).  And this morning, I used the magic item tables to roll up two treasure hoards, then looked up the rules for green slime and yellow mold.

I'd use it _more_, however, if it had more tables, more optional rules, and a better index.  But I'd say it gets about as much use as my Monster Manual.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

CleverNickName said:


> I disagree with the implication that "the DMG isn't worth buying."  I use mine all the time.  Just the other day I was digging through the Optional Rules and Variants section (looking for ways to balance a house-rule, ended up going with Renown).  And this morning, I used the magic item tables to roll up two treasure hoards, then looked up the rules for green slime and yellow mold.
> 
> I'd use it _more_, however, if it had more tables, more optional rules, and a better index.  But I'd say it gets about as much use as my Monster Manual.



If the new edition isn't changing much, what would make you buy the next DMG?


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## CleverNickName (Nov 7, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> If the new edition isn't changing much, what would make you buy the next DMG?



I got off on a tangent and wasn't very clear...sorry about that.  I meant to say, I would buy the next DMG if it had more tables, more optional rules, and a better index.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

CleverNickName said:


> I got off on a tangent and wasn't very clear...sorry about that.  I meant to say, I would buy the next DMG if it had more tables, more optional rules, and a better index.



Darn tootin' on the index. WotC should be embarrassed at the quality of that in their rulebooks.

I wonder how much they want to pass to DnDbeyond? Like, articles on how to track initiative....should that be in the DMG, or online? It is a lot easier to show those online than take up space in a book.


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## pointofyou (Nov 7, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Darn tootin' on the index. WotC should be embarrassed at the quality of that in their rulebooks.
> 
> I wonder how much they want to pass to DnDbeyond? Like, articles on how to track initiative....should that be in the DMG, or online? It is a lot easier to show those online than take up space in a book.



Bad indexes are a TRPG tradition.


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## CleverNickName (Nov 7, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I wonder how much they want to pass to DnDbeyond? Like, articles on how to track initiative....should that be in the DMG, or online? It is a lot easier to show those online than take up space in a book.



I wouldn't really be surprised if the new books were digital-only, DDB exclusives.  Disappointed, sure...but not surprised.


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## Gorck (Nov 7, 2022)

aco175 said:


> A section on encounters.  Add encounter charts based on locations and how to modify them.  Examples of mixing monsters for varied challenge ratings.  Maybe skip the wandering harlot table.



This x1000.  I want more of the random encounter tables like the ones in Xanathar's.  And I want them expanded upon (tables for Planes, creature type, etc.)

I'm considering having my group travel to the Shadowfel, but I really don't know enough about it to know what they would find there besides Shadar Kai.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 7, 2022)

Gorck said:


> I'm considering having my group travel to the Shadowfel, but I really don't know enough about it to know what they would find there besides Shadar Kai.




Book of Ebon Tides for 5th Edition - Kobold Press Store


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## Zaukrie (Nov 7, 2022)

There are some great DMG type books out there.....I wonder what they'll borrow.


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## ART! (Nov 7, 2022)

Dausuul said:


> Third, provide toolkits. Noncombat challenges are a great example of an area where this would be helpful. Just as the Monster Manual provides a whole lot of components from which to assemble combat encounters, the DMG could provide components to assemble social encounters or exploration challenges. _(Please do not refer me to 4E skill challenges. I have an extensive rant on the subject, but this is a 1D&D thread.)_



I think the game needs this, badly.

Using D&D Byond's encounter-building tool recently, I was really struck by the lack of a social encounter or exploration-bulding tools.

And look, I get it - I've been playing various versions of D&D and other games for 45 years, I'm well aware that one can do all that without rules, or with loosey-goosey rules.

But, what if? Just, what if you had a system that took the skills, passive skills, and even ability scores, and laid out how each can affect or be actively used in common social situations, and in different ways in different kinds of situations. Include a system of NPC (and monster?) dispositions, each affected (or not affected), positively (granting advantage to the PC) or negatively (disadvantage) by that array of ability scores, passive skills, and active use of skills. Is an NPC hard up for cash, is a monster defending a nest, are the bandits looking for a leader?

I can imagine another counter-argument, that it would be too had to cover all the possibilities, to which I shrug and say "5E _combat_ doesn't cover all the possibilities".

That said, I won't be surprised if the three pillars of play concept doesn't even get mentioned in this new edition. We've only had the two playtest docs so far, but there's nothing in them to suggest more support for social and exploration stuff. 5E brings it up but doesn't support it much, so I can imagine them learning the wrong (IMHO) lesson and just not bringing it up.


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## cbwjm (Nov 8, 2022)

I'm not sure there is much they can do for 1dnd to make the DMG worth buying if you already have the original 5e DMG. If you have none of the books though, and they more or less reprinted the 5e DMG, I'd probably still recommend it.


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## Yaarel (Nov 8, 2022)

delericho said:


> My only issue with that is that the MM is already the biggest of the core rulebooks, and it really should get the various monster tables that shouldn't be in the DMG. So unless there's a significant increase in page count or reduction in artwork (and I'd expect the opposite, on both counts), adding traps/hazards would come at the cost of dropping a significant number of monsters.
> 
> I suppose they could drop upper-level support from the core 3 to make room, but I'd rather they didn't do that either - if it's not in the core 3 then it's probably gone for good.




It might help to split the MM into two books, one for lower level creatures and one for upper level creatures.


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## delericho (Nov 8, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> It might help to split the MM into two books, one for lower level creatures and one for upper level creatures.



There's a lot of sense in that, except that D&D has always been sorely lacking in upper-level support. So if they split the core into a "lower level" bit and an "upper level" bit, I fully expect that that will turn into "the game now has 10 levels" in short order.

(It's the same with DM support generally - my expectation is that going forward the DMG and the MM are likely to be the _only_ books aimed squarely at the DM. Everything else will either be player side or shared. (Counting adventures as "shared", of course.))


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## SteveC (Nov 8, 2022)

It would have to be something exceptional to get me to go another round. 5E is the first edition that I don't own a DMG and I've run two successful campaigns of it, so I didn't miss too much.
I think the most important thing to figure out is who the book is for. If it's for beginning GMs it should talk to people about how to actually create and run a game. (If you're looking for a great book on that, consider "Game Angry: How to RPG The Angry Way"). The problem is that type of material is pretty much useless for an experienced GM so they won't be interested in it.
Then there's the "grab bag of optional and alternate rules," which is great to a point but I've found that most of those rules aren't playtested and need serious expansion to actually use in game.
Then I suppose we have the magic items, which people do want to get, but 5E has gone out of the way to make less important to the game.
I think WotC should break the DMG up into several different books to speak to the people with different needs. Yes, that would be heresy, so I don't expect it to happen.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 8, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> Having them in the DMG also discourages players from thinking of them as just another character option (like they were in 4e) and that's the way I want it.



since they are options of things that players can have, I much prefer the 4e approach where they are in the PHB... if nothing else atleast common/uncommon ones the PCs can be able to make with some downtime.

edit: TBH I want the DMG/PHB put into 1 book anyway. Leave out as much as you have to to be able to run the game on as few books as possible... heck take a page from 3e and throw some monster stats in the back so you can start with JUST the PHB


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> edit: TBH I want the DMG/PHB put into 1 book anyway. Leave out as much as you have to to be able to run the game on as few books as possible... heck take a page from 3e and throw some monster stats in the back so you can start with JUST the PHB



PF1 did this and I really liked it. The books that came after where gamemastery guides that gave advice and optional rule systems for the GM to use and Ultimate campaign  guide to homebrewing your own campaigns. I think this was a great move on Paizo's part.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 8, 2022)

payn said:


> PF1 did this and I really liked it. The books that came after where gamemastery guides that gave advice and optional rule systems for the GM to use and Ultimate campaign  guide to homebrewing your own campaigns. I think this was a great move on Paizo's part.



most games are really 1 book for the main game (PHB/DMG/MM)


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 8, 2022)

They can just say, “All new DMG! Completely new content! Exciting changes!”

Then just give the old one a new cover. _Nobody will ever know the difference. _

Profit.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> most games are really 1 book for the main game (PHB/DMG/MM)



True, but just in case folks are thinking D&D never has, and for some reason couldnt/shouldnt, PF1 is the case study saying it can.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 8, 2022)

payn said:


> True, but just in case folks are thinking D&D never has, and for some reason couldnt/shouldnt, PF1 is the case study saying it can.




Counterpoint-

Achilles: Hey, Zeno, I have a great idea!

Zeno: .......

Achilles: ZENO! ZENO! ZENO! ZENO! ZENO! ZEN......

Zeno: What. What do you want this time?

Achilles: Okay, so here's the deal. You know, how, since the 70s, D&D has always had the three core books? For every edition? You know, the PHB, the DMG, and the MM? The holy trinity? The three sisters? The Athos, Porthos, and Aramis of rulebooks?

Zeno: Yep, I know.

Achilles: Well ... what if we just ... don't?

Zeno: I'm .... I'm not following you?

Achilles: Yes! Exactly! We're going GALAXY BRAINED on this, Zeno! Instead of selling three books with a rich history and name recognition, we will sell ... wait for it .... wait for it .... wait for it .... ONE BOOK! We can call it something evocative, like ... I dunno ... _D&D Core Rules_.

Zeno: So your suggestion is to take three brands with almost 50 years of history and get rid of them. And to reduce the amazing sales of three books into one book?

Achilles: YES!

Zeno: But why?

Achilles: This is the prestige. Because ... other less successful games without the brand recognition do it!

Zeno: Okay. Um ... and how are we going to make up the lost sales from going from three well-known books to one book? Are we going to raise the price egregiously?

Achilles: Of course not! I don't have that step figured out yet, but .... I am sure that there is profit on the next step! GALAXY BRAINED!!!!!

Zeno: .........this is why I have your phone number blocked, Achilles.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Counterpoint-
> 
> Achilles: Hey, Zeno, I have a great idea!
> 
> ...



Are the sales that amazing for the DMG? Also, Achilles left out the part about the GM advice and campaign tips books. Two additional books to sell!


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 8, 2022)

payn said:


> *Are the sales that amazing for the DMG?* Also, Achilles left out the part about the GM advice and campaign tips books. Two additional books to sell!




Yes. It is consistently in the top five, and usually the third-best seller, among D&D books. Even right now it is #3.

Heck, it is regularly in the top 500 in overall books. It's practically a license to print to money.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yes. It is consistently in the top five, and usually the third-best seller, among D&D books. Even right now it is #3.
> 
> Heck, it is regularly in the top 500 in overall books. It's practically a license to print to money.



Aren't there only like 5 books for 5E? I mean, sure WotC dont have to do anything, but I think they could tweak the formula and make a lot of fans happy. Also, save book shelves all around the world from the weight of DMGs that never get picked up.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 8, 2022)

payn said:


> Aren't there only like 5 books for 5E? I mean, sure WotC dont have to do anything, but I think they could tweak the formula and make a lot of fans happy. Also, save book shelves all around the world from the weight of DMGs that never get picked up.




Well, Amazon ranks the top 100 "best sellers" for D&D. Right now, the first non-WoTC product is a gift calednar at #6, the first non-WOTC book is the GM's Book of Traps, Puzzles, and Dungeons (#8), and the first AP is  DL at #11 (Spelljammer is #12, Saltmarsh is #21).

The DM's Guide is #3, ahead ofMoTM (#4), TCoE (#5), Essentials (#7), and the Core Gift Set (which ALSO has the DMG) at #9.

More importantly ... I did mention that it is regularly in the top 500 of OVERALL BOOKS? Like ... all of them? Currently it's #526. 

This doesn't mean that they shouldn't re-think what's in it - after all, it doesn't matter because ... NO ONE READS IT! But giving up on these sales and branding? That would be kinda sorta rilly stoopid. IMO.


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Nov 8, 2022)

Since WotC's target market segment is new young players, I hope they actually make a DMG about roleplaying from scratch, alluding to card games, anime etc that the target consumers probably are familiar with.

Alignment is already thrown out, and the next logical step should be to remove the outer planes, especially the wheel model derived from alignments. Just have a good plane and an evil plane, and have a couple of none-lore-related nameless gods for clerics and paladins that the players can toy with if they want.

In other words, throw out all the lore and grognard-flirting stuff, then there's room to teach the youngsters how to roleplay and be a DM.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Since WotC's target market segment is new young players, I hope they actually make a DMG about roleplaying from scratch, alluding to card games, anime etc that the target consumers probably are familiar with.
> 
> Alignment is already thrown out, and the next logical step should be to remove the outer planes, especially the wheel model derived from alignments. Just have a good plane and an evil plane, and have a couple of none-lore-related nameless gods for clerics and paladins that the players can toy with if they want.
> 
> In other words, throw out all the lore and grognard-flirting stuff, then there's room to teach the youngsters how to roleplay and be a DM.



I dont think this is the lay up you seem to think it is. Though, I dont know enough about youngsters to argue against it.


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## wicked cool (Nov 8, 2022)

I would throw an introductory adventure with a guide. Do a smaller version of what you get in the starter plus tips to help run it

I would do combat examples and save examples. Cover flanking and cover etc.  

Maybe set up a back to back page like the dm screen. 

You can basically run d&d without the dmg. It’s sad that the starter sets are much more user friendly


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## Yaarel (Nov 8, 2022)

I treat the DMs Guide like a reference book, sometimes like a dictionary, sometimes like an encyclopedia.


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## SteveC (Nov 8, 2022)

As I'm thinking about this more and more, the answer is starting to become "nothing." That's the answer for me, as an experienced DM. The only thing that would get me is if there are some important game mechanics in it. If magic items become more important again, I suppose that might make the purchase seem relevant, but otherwise ... guess not.
In thinking about it, the last reference I regularly made from the DMG was page 42 from 4E. That was the rules for damage and effects from the environment. I referenced that a lot actually, to the point of basically making a handout with those rules.
So I am not the person to ask this question of ultimately, which is sort of a disquieting thing to realize after playing D&D for so long.


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 8, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Since WotC's target market segment is new young players, I hope they actually make a DMG about roleplaying from scratch, alluding to card games, anime etc that the target consumers probably are familiar with.
> 
> Alignment is already thrown out, and the next logical step should be to remove the outer planes, especially the wheel model derived from alignments. Just have a good plane and an evil plane, and have a couple of none-lore-related nameless gods for clerics and paladins that the players can toy with if they want.
> 
> In other words, throw out all the lore and grognard-flirting stuff, then there's room to teach the youngsters how to roleplay and be a DM.



I wish they did do that.  It would difficult for them not to call it 6e then, and I could comfortably ignore it.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 8, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I treat the DMs Guide like a reference book, sometimes like a dictionary, sometimes like an encyclopedia.




I treat the 1e DMG like a thesaurus.

"Oh Gygax, hallowed by thy name, what is a synonym for brazen strumpet? ....Oh, that's a LOT of synonyms. Um.... gave that a lot of thought ....."


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Nov 8, 2022)

payn said:


> I dont think this is the lay up you seem to think it is. Though, I dont know enough about youngsters to argue against it.



Neither do I, I'm just drawing what WotC has done during the last few years to a logical - well, almost logical conclusion.

But my point is I very much hope they don't try to satisfy everyone. The current DMG is a half-measure with not enough of anything while still trying to flirt a bit - but not enough - with grognards like many of us here on the forum.
Either do something with serious appeal and useful to the young and new segment, or a fat volume knee-deep in lore and the history of the game.

And yes, I would very much prefer a full on 6E.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2022)

HaroldTheHobbit said:


> Neither do I, I'm just drawing what WotC has done during the last few years to a logical - well, almost logical conclusion.
> 
> But my point is I very much hope they don't try to satisfy everyone. The current DMG is a half-measure with not enough of anything while still trying to flirt a bit - but not enough - with grognards like many of us here on the forum.
> Either do something with serious appeal and useful to the young and new segment, or a fat volume knee-deep in lore and the history of the game.
> ...



Well, I would like to see a lot of the DMG moved into the PHB. New books that focus on advanced GM tips and campaign building would take the existing space of the DMG. Though, as Snarf points out, why rock the boat when it's full of cash?

What do you mean by wanting a full blown 6E?


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## tetrasodium (Nov 8, 2022)

A lot of the old "behind the curtain" style deconstruction & insight needs to make a return.  Obviously the underlying mechanics need to be implemented for that to work because a book filled with "lol!   Let the gm fix/finish /homebrew this" is going to have little appeal.

Edit: of course a lot of good suggestions have been made already too


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## darjr (Nov 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yes. It is consistently in the top five, and usually the third-best seller, among D&D books. Even right now it is #3.
> 
> Heck, it is regularly in the top 500 in overall books. It's practically a license to print to money.



The core books still sell very well. In fact if these numbers persist and no one who already owns the 2014 PHB buys the 2023 PHB it would still be a smash hit and possibly the second best selling PHB.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 9, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Maybe I'm one of the few people who DON'T want the DMG to have this whole big section on _"How To DM"_.  Because quite frankly... learning how to DM and what to focus on while DMing is such a personal and personal preference kind of thing that I in no way wish to see a single way proscribed as "here's the way to do it."
> 
> I've read how a lot of you people run your games here on EN World and know for a fact I would NEVER want to play in a lot of your games, LOL!  If the DMG was then giving us instructions on how to DM in the styles that some of you DM?  That would be horrible for someone like me!  The last thing I want is for more people to think that _your_ ways of DMing are the "proper" ways to do so, heh heh! We've already got worshippers at the altars of The Alexandrian and the Angry DM... to have any one of their styles of DMing possibly become the "instructions" of how to do it in the DMG? No thank you!
> 
> ...




I don't think that those of us who have indicated a preference for the DMG having DM advice are arguing for a one-true-wayist approach. The opposite. I would like the basics of how to run the game to be in the PHP so folks can pickup a book and a starter adventure and just play.  For those who really get into it, the DMG should be a tool guide to help them up their game or try other options and flavors.  I would hope the General Advice on Running games section would describe various approaches, both the more wargames-inspired gamist approach, as well as the more improvisational, thespian approach--an other approaches as well! 

Personally, I like playing in a variety of styles. And even with my gaming group, I may change approaches from one campaign to the next or even for certain sessions in a campaign. There is certainly a market for "How to DM Guides" and articles.  WotC would be remiss if they ignored that demand.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 9, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I'm beginning to move to the idea that there should be a beginner DMG, that is much shorter (and much longer than the starter sets), and that most of that should be outside the "advanced DMG." Of course, that gives them more products to sell, which might be good or bad....but it goes with my thought that magic items and foraging and stuff should be in a different book (which would sell, no problem).
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a starter DMG and advanced DMG (which, ya, I already said that, but I like it even more as I type it out).



The starter sets and the PHB already address this. I think the new PHB could address it better.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 9, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> If the new edition isn't changing much, what would make you buy the next DMG?



More options. Consolidating rules-options content from their various other books into the DMG; more options for down time; better and more fleshed out stronghold, downtime, and faction options; rules for crafting, alchemy, and components; more combat variant rules; well written advice on playing theater of the mind and other styles of play; more advice and rules options for running different genres; more options for customizing and creating monsters; more world-building advice and tools; advice on running D&D on-line.  Basically, a well stocked tool box of well though-out, well written, and much better organized tools and material to run games.


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## Catolias (Nov 9, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> If they took magic items out of DMG completely and sold a fourth Book of Treasure...with _lots_ more magic items, tables for generating unique magic items, expanded Artifact and Sentient Weapon information, rules or at least guidelines for crafting magic items (and harvesting components from dead monsters?), etc...who would buy it?
> 
> I would.



D&D 3.5 had the book Weapons of Legacy that did this. I liked it and had fun with my players. It was at the tale end of the bloat with 3.5 before 4e hit. I know not many people agreed that it was a good book


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## HaroldTheHobbit (Nov 9, 2022)

payn said:


> Well, I would like to see a lot of the DMG moved into the PHB. New books that focus on advanced GM tips and campaign building would take the existing space of the DMG. Though, as Snarf points out, why rock the boat when it's full of cash?
> 
> What do you mean by wanting a full blown 6E?



A full blown 6E - by that I mean that I think the ambitions to have full compatibility with "old" 5E is pretty silly. Besides the mechanical changes WotC has been clear both in action and words that they want to change the value connotations of the game - see for example race vs heritage and "not all orcs". That in itself is a good thing, even if those moves of course are economically motivated.

So there will be a both mechanical and value-based divide between the old and new books, and of course their current target consumer groups will want the new books. Thats why I think the ambitions of backwards compatibility will just make the game worse, and I rather see that WotC make a new edition of the game as they want it for max sales to the target consumers.

We grogs and lore nerds still have older editions to play. Or other games, in my case.


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## AnotherGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

If people are worried about space within the DMG, much of it could be moved online where it can be improved/updated on an offered for free - here me out. We have had several editions of the game most of the stuff in the DMG can be found online anyways - why not capitalise and take control of it. And really we need the space.
So all of this SHOULD be online (and maintained by WotC)

Learning how to DM, various DM techniques/styles, session 0, players, discussing genre/themes....etc
Tables - random dungeon generation, NPC generation (motives, appearance, names...etc), encounter options, Random encounter tables by terrain, tables upon tables...etc
In the DMG however you provide a summary overview, definitions and links to the sites.
Then you can focus on the real important issues and go into more detail

Options/modular systems for low level/high magic, gritty, horror, pulp, gunpowder, item breakage, substitute magic systems/skill systems...etc
Rewards and Treasures
Traps, Poisons, Madness, Corruption, Diseases, Injuries,
Exploration and Social Challenges
Magical Items
Combat encounter set-up
Downtime (DM side) - and there should be Downtime in the PHB as well 
Special location rules - underwater, ethereal, astral, aerial...etc
Finally, I think monster generation should be in the Monster's Manual.

EDIT: Good layout and decent index should be standard; I shouldn't even need to mention it.


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## delericho (Nov 9, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> If people are worried about space within the DMG, much of it could be moved online where it can be improved/updated on an offered for free - here me out. We have had several editions of the game most of the stuff in the DMG can be found online anyways - why not capitalise and take control of it. And really we need the space.
> So all of this SHOULD be online (and maintained by WotC)



My problem with that is that "online" means "on D&D Beyond", which is completely useless to me.

(And, yes, I know that that's an entirely self-centered position to take. But there it is.)


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## AnotherGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

delericho said:


> My problem with that is that "online" means "on D&D Beyond", which is completely useless to me.
> 
> (And, yes, I know that that's an entirely self-centered position to take. But there it is.)



Oh right, that is a good point.
I was not intending for it to be a closed off portion from the playerbase, rather the way I imagined it, the source material be it videos and tables should be accessible the same way the basic PHB is accessible for public consumption.
Really educating people how to play the game should not be something worth monetizing as well as wasting space in the book for. And most of the tables are really just updated tables of previous editions, they should be free. 
We shouldn't be paying for names like we did in Xanathar's. These tools should just be made available for all.

Does that work for you or is there another reason I'm perhaps missing here?


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 9, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> I don't think that those of us who have indicated a preference for the DMG having DM advice are arguing for a one-true-wayist approach. The opposite. I would like the basics of how to run the game to be in the PHP so folks can pickup a book and a starter adventure and just play.  For those who really get into it, the DMG should be a tool guide to help them up their game or try other options and flavors.  I would hope the General Advice on Running games section would describe various approaches, both the more wargames-inspired gamist approach, as well as the more improvisational, thespian approach--an other approaches as well!
> 
> Personally, I like playing in a variety of styles. And even with my gaming group, I may change approaches from one campaign to the next or even for certain sessions in a campaign. There is certainly a market for "How to DM Guides" and articles.  WotC would be remiss if they ignored that demand.




Yes. 

I imagine example scenarios…a common RPG technique…but ending with three different ways the DM could handle it.


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## delericho (Nov 9, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> Oh right, that is a good point.
> I was not intending for it to be a closed off portion from the playerbase, rather the way I imagined it, the source material be it videos and tables should be accessible the same way the basic PHB is accessible for public consumption.
> Really educating people how to play the game should not be something worth monetizing as well as wasting space in the book for. And most of the tables are really just updated tables of previous editions, they should be free.
> We shouldn't be paying for names like we did in Xanathar's. These tools should just be made available for all.
> ...



Probably.

My issue is that I play in an environment with restricted access to the web. So if there's anything that's needed during play and is on D&DB or wizards.com, or a lot of other places, then I'm stuck. (It's also why electronic books in any format other than PDF don't work for me.)

But things like "how to play" videos or tools for preparing the game are things I can access in other locations. So that would be fine (for me).


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## AnotherGuy (Nov 9, 2022)

delericho said:


> Probably.
> 
> My issue is that I play in an environment with restricted access to the web. So if there's anything that's needed during play and is on D&DB or wizards.com, or a lot of other places, then I'm stuck. (It's also why electronic books in any format other than PDF don't work for me.)
> 
> But things like "how to play" videos or tools for preparing the game are things I can access in other locations. So that would be fine (for me).



Yeah, I'm imagining the tables could always be printed and put in a flip-file of sorts. 
I mean they'd only really update them when necessary, not every month or so. 
If we could save a good 20-30 pages this way but also provide more content for DMs (online, which tools can be printed), it is a win-win for all.
Now with that available 20-30 pages we could really go to town on that option/modular category.


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## pogre (Nov 9, 2022)

What would be useful would be a model form for players to fill out on their preferences and expectations for a D&D campaign followed by a series of suggestions about how to create a campaign that will align with players' preferences and expectations. Perhaps going further in depth with a complete example of campaign creation and play.

A new DMG MUST include lots of advice for online play. I only play in person these days, but even I recognize online play is a major segment, if not majority, of D&D play these days.


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2022)

pogre said:


> What would be useful would be a model form for players to fill out on their preferences and expectations for a D&D campaign followed by a series of suggestions about how to create a campaign that will align with players' preferences and expectations. Perhaps going further in depth with a complete example of campaign creation and play.
> 
> A new DMG MUST include lots of advice for online play. I only play in person these days, but even I recognize online play is a major segment, if not majority, of D&D play these days.



This is a good point. Assuming the DMG has advice on game prep, it needs to include how(/if) that is different for virtual game prep.


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## MNblockhead (Nov 9, 2022)

Given the WotC is investing in its own VTT, I would be surprised if they don't at least give a brief mention to VTTs.  But I would hope their treatment will be more fulsome than that and cover non-VTT and VTT-lite options. I've run online games that are "VTT heavy" (Foundry, Fantasy Grounds, Roll20), "VTT lite" (Role), sans-VTT but with game tools (Discord with D&D Beyond's Avrae Discord Bot and/or dice rolling bots), and just using video-conferencing platforms (Google Meet, Zoom). All were fun with some changes to how you run the game (tactical battlemap vs theater of the mind). From the many posts I've seen here and elsewhere, especially during COVID, lot's of people are looking for tips on running games online. It would be helpful to many if the DMG had a few pages comparing different ways of running the game online.


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Given the WotC is investing in its own VTT, I would be surprised if they don't at least give a brief mention to VTTs.  But I would hope their treatment will be more fulsome than that and cover non-VTT and VTT-lite options. I've run online games that are "VTT heavy" (Foundry, Fantasy Grounds, Roll20), "VTT lite" (Role), sans-VTT but with game tools (Discord with D&D Beyond's Avrae Discord Bot and/or dice rolling bots), and just using video-conferencing platforms (Google Meet, Zoom). All were fun with some changes to how you run the game (tactical battlemap vs theater of the mind). From the many posts I've seen here and elsewhere, especially during COVID, lot's of people are looking for tips on running games online. It would be helpful to many if the DMG had a few pages comparing different ways of running the game online.



Good point about WOTC' D&D VTT plans. I seem to recall reading somewhere that they plan to have PDFs available for all their books starting with the new "edition", so it would make sense to have a lot of hyperlinks in those to instructional videos, samples of play, printables, etc.


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## SteveC (Nov 9, 2022)

ART! said:


> Good point about WOTC' D&D VTT plans. I seem to recall reading somewhere that they plan to have PDFs available for all their books starting with the new "edition", so it would make sense to have a lot of hyperlinks in those to instructional videos, samples of play, printables, etc.



This would increase the likelihood that I'd pick it up. If I could get this as a PDF (and not as something linked to another account that'd I'd have to use to read it) I likely would pick it up. I would be surprised if this happened, but it would be a pleasant surprise.


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## UngainlyTitan (Nov 10, 2022)

ART! said:


> Good point about WOTC' D&D VTT plans. I seem to recall reading somewhere that they plan to have PDFs available for all their books starting with the new "edition", so it would make sense to have a lot of hyperlinks in those to instructional videos, samples of play, printables, etc.



Really! they have been very anti PDF in the past and with DnDBeyond I see little reason for them to change.


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## delericho (Nov 10, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Really! they have been very anti PDF in the past and with DnDBeyond I see little reason for them to change.



What's odd about that is that they only seem to be anti-PDF for the current edition - obviously, there are vast numbers of PDFs of old edition materials on DM's Guild.

Certainly (from my point of view at least) if they were to release the 2024 version in PDF format, that would be a very pleasant surprise.


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## Nefermandias (Nov 10, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> It's a serious question. The "Big Three" books of D&D have always been the Player's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Dungeon Master's Guide. The DM's Guide has always sounded like it is really important, but I don't think it has ever been an essential text in any version of D&D, aside from being where we hide the magic items (for some reason).
> 
> So what can actually make this book worth buying and reading, while remaining true to the basic 5e toolkit?



4th Edition's DMG doesn't even has magic itens in it (they are in the PHB) and it's arguably the best DMG ever.


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## UngainlyTitan (Nov 10, 2022)

delericho said:


> What's odd about that is that they only seem to be anti-PDF for the current edition - obviously, there are vast numbers of PDFs of old edition materials on DM's Guild.
> 
> Certainly (from my point of view at least) if they were to release the 2024 version in PDF format, that would be a very pleasant surprise.



Well Yeah, they were really strongly anti pdf since 4e, but I really cannot remember their attitude in the 3.x era.


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## payn (Nov 10, 2022)

delericho said:


> What's odd about that is that they only seem to be anti-PDF for the current edition - obviously, there are vast numbers of PDFs of old edition materials on DM's Guild.
> 
> Certainly (from my point of view at least) if they were to release the 2024 version in PDF format, that would be a very pleasant surprise.



So...we should expect PDFs of the 2014 rulebooks to be available in 2024?


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## payn (Nov 10, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Well Yeah, they were really strongly anti pdf since 4e, but I really cannot remember their attitude in the 3.x era.



I remember a lot of piracy back early 2000s with 3E. I think it soured WotC greatly on the idea.


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## UngainlyTitan (Nov 10, 2022)

payn said:


> I remember a lot of piracy back early 2000s with 3E. I think it soured WotC greatly on the idea.



Thanks, I remember the piracy but was not sure about the timeline.


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## gametaku (Nov 10, 2022)

From the various discussion online the DM's Guide should incorporate all the player options.   The players guide should just be instructions on how to be a good player.  Instead of players making whatever character they want instead they would pick from the options that the DM provides.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 10, 2022)

gametaku said:


> From the various discussion online the DM's Guide should incorporate all the player options.   The players guide should just be instructions on how to be a good player.  Instead of players making whatever character they want instead they would pick from the options that the DM provides.



I hope they don't do this. I appreciate that's what you want, but I want the player information in the player book.


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## gametaku (Nov 10, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I hope they don't do this. I appreciate that's what you want, but I want the player information in the player book.



I didn't' say what I wanted, just that through various online discussions that there seems to be a preference by DM's in giving the players only the options that they provide.


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## Clint_L (Nov 11, 2022)

gametaku said:


> I didn't' say what I wanted, just that through various online discussions that there seems to be a preference by DM's in giving the players only the options that they provide.



Ugh. I _hate_ that. For me as a DM, a lot of the fun comes from the players bringing their own ideas.


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## gametaku (Nov 12, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Ugh. I _hate_ that. For me as a DM, a lot of the fun comes from the players bringing their own ideas.



But that's still allowed you would just give your players all the options, well DM's that want a restrictive set would just give their players only those options.


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 12, 2022)

gametaku said:


> But that's still allowed you would just give your players all the options, well DM's that want a restrictive set would just give their players only those options.



i mean, then eventually the players will learn what all the options are (assuming they aren't already all online by then) and then this entire idea is utterly redundant. congratulations, you've "hidden" the player options from the players...because?

anyway, in my opinion the DMG should include some advice for new DMs, but should also serve to completely disassemble the system's core assumptions for them. why are classes constructed the way they are? how does the encounter math track with expected player stats? how are spells and equipment balanced? how are feat power levels estimated? what is the expected player wealth at various levels and what are they expected to buy with it? do these things change depending on how low or high magic the setting you're using is? etc.

in other words, the DMG should serve not just to teach new DMs how to DM, but to teach any DM how to run the system specifically by showing them why the system is built the way it is and thus how to best use (and change/add onto if need be) it.


pogre said:


> What would be useful would be a model form for players to fill out on their preferences and expectations for a D&D campaign followed by a series of suggestions about how to create a campaign that will align with players' preferences and expectations. Perhaps going further in depth with a complete example of campaign creation and play.
> 
> A new DMG MUST include lots of advice for online play. I only play in person these days, but even I recognize online play is a major segment, if not majority, of D&D play these days.



this would also be pretty welcome


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 12, 2022)

gametaku said:


> I didn't' say what I wanted, just that through various online discussions that there seems to be a preference by DM's in giving the players only the options that they provide.




C’mon. How many people on the Internet say that?  A few dozen? 

A few people with axes to grind on the forums are not indicative of anything.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 13, 2022)

Make it better organized. I like the content of the 5e DMG, it is just impractical as a reference.


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## dave2008 (Nov 14, 2022)

I'm with @UngeheuerLich , just better organization.  I would love if all the improv material as in one section instead of spread all over the book


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## Gorck (Nov 15, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> anyway, in my opinion the DMG should include some advice for new DMs, but should also serve to completely disassemble the system's core assumptions for them. why are classes constructed the way they are? how does the encounter math track with expected player stats? how are spells and equipment balanced? how are feat power levels estimated? what is the expected player wealth at various levels and what are they expected to buy with it? do these things change depending on how low or high magic the setting you're using is? etc.



So basically, all the stuff that eventually gets released as "Developer Diaries" should be included in the DMG?  I like that idea because it would make homebrewing easier for DMs.

I've attempted to use the _Monsters Statistics by Challenge Rating_ table on page 174 to reverse engineer what a homebrewed monster's CR should be and I can never seem to get it right.  I've even picked random creatures in the Monster Manual and used that table to calculate what their CRs should be and they never seem to match up.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 15, 2022)

Gorck said:


> So basically, all the stuff that eventually gets released as "Developer Diaries" should be included in the DMG?  I like that idea because it would make homebrewing easier for DMs.
> 
> I've attempted to use the _Monsters Statistics by Challenge Rating_ table on page 174 to reverse engineer what a homebrewed monster's CR should be and I can never seem to get it right.  I've even picked random creatures in the Monster Manual and used that table to calculate what their CRs should be and they never seem to match up.



CR is awful. At least if you want precision. I write a lot of monster statblocks, and spend way too much time looking at existing ones. And CR is just bad.


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## Gorck (Nov 15, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> CR is awful. At least if you want precision. I write a lot of monster statblocks, and spend way too much time looking at existing ones. And CR is just bad.



Which is why I would love to see them expand upon it more thoroughly in a "future DMG" (and fix it, while they're at it).


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 15, 2022)

Gorck said:


> So basically, all the stuff that eventually gets released as "Developer Diaries" should be included in the DMG?  I like that idea because it would make homebrewing easier for DMs.



yes. and i don't think it'd help with just homebrewing - i think it'd also help with encounter design, wealth distribution, campaign pacing, etc. to make it clear what the system expects out of a DM.

you need to know the rules to break them, after all.


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## teitan (Nov 15, 2022)

The 5e DMG is already worth buying. When it first came out it was praised for its abundance of optional rules to tweak the game how the DM sees fit, the dungeon generator, the guidelines for building adventures, etc. it’s a very well done DMG and I’m tired of pretending it’s not because some influencers in the last few years said “you don’t need this book” because the 2e version was so weak or it isn’t as useful as the 1e version. 

If more people actually read the DMG they would realize that no, it isn’t bad to limit options and can lead to some great campaigns. No a lot of the rules everyone thinks are broken aren’t actually “rules” but are optional systems that you don’t have to use and the DMG has other options to use which means you can add other options of your own devising. “We are tired of fixing your broken game WOTV” except that was the point of 5e, having a customizable game and the DMG is all about customization. It’s a feature and not a bug and yeah I’m tired of pretending it’s not. 

Don’t like the current flanking rules? Change em. It’s encouraged. Oh you get a +2 instead. Fixed. How easy is that? DMG encourages that and tell you it’s YOUR GAME. Much like Brittany… leave the DMG alone. It’s a good product.


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## Clint_L (Nov 17, 2022)

teitan said:


> The 5e DMG is already worth buying. ... I’m tired of pretending it’s not because some influencers in the last few years said “you don’t need this book” because the 2e version was so weak or it isn’t as useful as the 1e version.



I see. So, those of us who think the DMG is not worth buying are all sheep who just believe things because an influencer said so and not, for example, because we've played every edition of the game since 1979 and might be capable of making our own critical assessment?

Convincing argument! Not condescending or insulting at all!


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## SteveC (Nov 18, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> I see. So, those of us who think the DMG is not worth buying are all sheep who just believe things because an influencer said so and not, for example, because we've played every edition of the game since 1979 and might be capable of making our own critical assessment?
> 
> Convincing argument! Not condescending or insulting at all!



I'll just have to echo this. I am hardly an influencer, but I was disappointed with the DMG when it first came out. I was hoping for the modularity that was discussed so much during the playtest, and it just wasn't it.

I don't know how much is going to change in the next Edition, but unless there are big changes, to either the system or the new DMG, I'm not going to be interested. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with liking what's in the current book.

I do think WotC is in a bind, though: if the next edition is very much a "5.5" what would there be in the new DMG to make it a useful pickup if you already have the current one? And if it's very different, what's going to be there that will be truly different? I'll tell you that saying "feel free to make up what you want" isn't going to convince many people that they need to buy the book.


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## payn (Nov 18, 2022)

SteveC said:


> I'll just have to echo this. I am hardly an influencer, but I was disappointed with the DMG when it first came out. I was hoping for the modularity that was discussed so much during the playtest, and it just wasn't it.
> 
> I don't know how much is going to change in the next Edition, but unless there are big changes, to either the system or the new DMG, I'm not going to be interested. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with liking what's in the current book.
> 
> I do think WotC is in a bind, though: if the next edition is very much a "5.5" what would there be in the new DMG to make it a useful pickup if you already have the current one? And if it's very different, what's going to be there that will be truly different? I'll tell you that saying "feel free to make up what you want" isn't going to convince many people that they need to buy the book.



Newbs need books, folks like me who didn’t pick up 2014 DMG, those who wore out their copy, collectors, etc….


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 18, 2022)

payn said:


> Newbs need books, folks like me who didn’t pick up 2014 DMG, those who wore out their copy, collectors, etc….



I need to launder money from my cartel. Turns out this hobby is an incredible money sink.


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## teitan (Nov 18, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> I need to launder money from my cartel. Turns out this hobby is an incredible money sink.



Were you around for 3.x? Lol 2 30-50 dollar books a month! Sometimes more!


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## delericho (Nov 18, 2022)

When the 5e DMG first came out I thought it was great. It was only with time that its limitations became apparent - the monster building table is badly misaligned with the MM monsters, the optional rules are insufficiently fleshed out (and so to actually use them I need to homebrew my own versions anyway), and so only the treasure tables and magic items actually see use. But the most frustrating thing about it is that it could be so much better - indeed, Level Up demonstrates this quite handily (though I'll hasten to add that that is _one_ to do it, not _the_ way to do it).

I _still_ think it's one of the best DMGs across all the editions. But that says more about other versions than about this one.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 18, 2022)

teitan said:


> Were you around for 3.x? Lol 2 30-50 dollar books a month! Sometimes more!



But there was no Kickstarter.


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## Clint_L (Nov 18, 2022)

delericho said:


> I _still_ think it's one of the best DMGs across all the editions. But that says more about other versions than about this one.



I tend to agree. I think TSR/WotC have never really had a clear concept for the DM's Guide, unlike the other two books.

I keep going back to the concept of a _guide_. Make it more of a guide. If you are a new DM, you should _need_ it. If you are a veteran DM, you should _want_ it.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 19, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> If you are a new DM, you should _need_ it. If you are a veteran DM, you should _want_ it.




I nominate @iserith to write it 

/flameWarOn


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## Scott Christian (Nov 19, 2022)

Late to the game here, but I find the DMG incredibly useful for, well... dungeon masters. The 5th edition DMG was, in my opinion, one of the, if not the best, gamemastering books ever written. Its advice on how to tailor the game to your table's needs was impeccable. Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 19, 2022)

Scott Christian said:


> Late to the game here, but I find the DMG incredibly useful for, well... dungeon masters. The 5th edition DMG was, in my opinion, one of the, if not the best, gamemastering books ever written. Its advice on how to tailor the game to your table's needs was impeccable. Of course, this is just my opinion.



Sure, but you already own it! If this version is compatible.....how could they make a DMG you'd want to buy again?


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## Eyes of Nine (Nov 20, 2022)

Some of these are already in 5e DMG, some are not

How to make a monster
How to make an encounter
How to make an adventure


How to make a spell
How to make a class
How to make a sub-class
How to make equipment (ok, this one's probably pretty simple)
How to make a magic Item


Ideas on what to do with money
Other modes of Magic besides Vancian (perhaps not accessible to players, but only monsters/NPCs)


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## Scott Christian (Nov 20, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Sure, but you already own it! If this version is compatible.....how could they make a DMG you'd want to buy again?



Personally, I think they add realms and rules associated with those realms. Conan-esque with two pages of specific alternate rules, Harry Potter with two pages of specific alternate rules, etc. Give it an extra sixty pages. It doesn't need to be balanced or even harbor D&D core values. Just alternate rules. Maybe one where no one ever gets above third level or another where the damage you take permanently reduces an attribute or another where if you're a wizard you have a chance of blowing up.   Obviously a lot of those are hyperbolic, but you get my point.


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## Lakesidefantasy (Nov 22, 2022)

Scott Christian said:


> Personally, I think they add realms and rules associated with those realms. Conan-esque with two pages of specific alternate rules, Harry Potter with two pages of specific alternate rules, etc. Give it an extra sixty pages.




Yes! Van Richten's guide is a good model for this in my opinion. Then I could tell my players I'm running a Conan-esque adventure, check page 125 of the Dungeon Master's Guide to see what that entails.


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## SteveC (Nov 22, 2022)

I know this is unlikely, but I'd like any modules to be fully developed, not a shell that needs the DM to make them useful at the table. There are some ideas in the current DMG but they all need a lot of work to expand them. "Here are some ideas for you to design with..." is really not useful to me. Yes, that might mean fewer modules, but more that I'd actually use. And the only way I'd get the book is if it has something I want to use at my table.


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## Scott Christian (Nov 23, 2022)

Lakesidefantasy said:


> Yes! Van Richten's guide is a good model for this in my opinion. Then I could tell my players I'm running a Conan-esque adventure, check page 125 of the Dungeon Master's Guide to see what that entails.



Well, one thing I think you could do if it was taken seriously, is alter how players make their characters - which is a fun part of the game for many. So an alternate rule regarding rituals might make some players reconfigure their character, especially if it made them unique or stronger or even able to do the bizarre. An alternate rule on damage might make people more aware of AC. I have never really mapped any of this out in my head, but I do know anything that alters the mindset of character creation is a pretty strong influence.


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## MichaelSomething (Nov 23, 2022)

Bring back the NPC classes! Let the Commoner class ride again!


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## Weiley31 (Nov 24, 2022)

Wasn't the 4E DMG liked by a lot of players? Like both books? Or am I getting mixed up with another thing?


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## Micah Sweet (Nov 24, 2022)

Weiley31 said:


> Wasn't the 4E DMG liked by a lot of players? Like both books? Or am I getting mixed up with another thing?



Liked by a lot of 4e players, certainly.


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## SteveC (Nov 24, 2022)

Weiley31 said:


> Wasn't the 4E DMG liked by a lot of players? Like both books? Or am I getting mixed up with another thing?



It was. Both it and the DMG2 had a lot of material that is useful even today. I think they were excellent books that still hold up.


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## Beleriphon (Nov 25, 2022)

The DMG needs to operate like an actual teaching textbook does. Introduce concepts and ideas in measured doses so you build upon each idea from the previous one.

Chapter One really should be what is the game, how to start a game, and why different people play. This can include how to appeal to different ways to play, as well as why _you _want to DM. Advice on problems that can arise in a D&D game. Use WotC IP examples to keep that brand train rolling.

From there introduce the idea of what kind of game to play. This is where fun random generation tables can start being introduced. Once you have what kind of game you want further chapters about building adventures to whole settings. Include customer monster rules in either chapter.

Setting design chapter should go over general advice about world building, including cosmology with the Great Wheel used as the example to illustrate different ideas. Discussion can contrast how say Eberron and Forgotten Realms handle high level NPCs why both approaches are valid and how choosing one of them can affect the game and how you need to approach it as the DM.

From there move onto how to provide both the players and the characters rewards. This is where we get into magic items and what not.

Full random generation and crazy tables can be in appendices.


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## kronovan (Nov 26, 2022)

If WotC's plan is to design it similar to the 5e DMG, then I'd prefer if essential things like magic items would also be available in a smaller/lower cost companion. IMO too much of what was in the DMG was novice and introductory and I have other publications that are reasonably system agnostic (i.e. PF1E GameMastery Guide) that do a better job covering it.  While I made use of magic items, crafting, sub races, sub class and monster creation info in the 5e DMG, everything else was just filler. I needed it for encounter creation guidelines in the early days of 5e, but WotC eventually released the free 5e DMG PDF which included that. Not to mention others eventually published alternatives.

These days I much prefer PDFs to Hardcovers though, so I'm unlikely to migrate to OneD&D anyways.


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## Peter BOSCO'S (Nov 29, 2022)

They could remove the notion that magic items are optional, and start giving them out like crazy, so more players would buy the DMG to see what their magic items do.  [This would cause balance issues, but selling books and making money is good.]


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Nov 29, 2022)

Peter BOSCO'S said:


> They could remove the notion that magic items are optional, and start giving them out like crazy, so more players would buy the DMG to see what their magic items do.  [This would cause balance issues, but selling books and making money is good.]



Hilarious...


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