# Worst Race?



## Kitirat (Jun 3, 2008)

What is your general opinion on the worst of the races (Mechanically)?  If ya vote, reasons why and what you'd think of doing with the race to make it better would be great things to post.

It would also be cool to post if you've actually played as well.

See ya,
Ken


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## Saitou (Jun 3, 2008)

You mean, _besides_ the Half Elf?

The only thing the Halfelf seems good for is a Star pact Warlock. Maybe a Warlord, but it wouldn't be all that optimal.


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## FitzTheRuke (Jun 3, 2008)

I can't say I understand what people think is wrong with the half-elf. Seems fine to me if you don't "leave out the multiclass power due to space limitations".

With enough room on your character sheet I think they're great.

Can't say I've personally found a bum race. They're all good depending on what you are trying to do.

Fitz


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## lutecius (Jun 3, 2008)

shouldn't this thread have a poll?


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## rkanodia (Jun 3, 2008)

People don't like the half-elf because multiclassing is turning out to be very, very hard in 4th edition.  You can't just pick any random class and pull a power from it.  First, you have to make sure that the power uses a stat that is high for you.  Then, you have to make sure that the tool required for that power is compatible with the tools that you use.  If those conditions are not both met, then you are going to find out that your multiclass skill has a terrible chance to hit and/or low damage and/or requires you to juggle weapons in combat.

At low levels, the 'tool' thing isn't necessarily as serious.  For instance, a Tactical Warlord might pick up Scorching Burst (like the KOTS Warlord pregen) and find it to be quite handy.  However, as the Warlord gains levels, they'll find that their to-hit lags significantly behind a 'real' wizard, unless he both invests in a magic wand, and spends actions swapping it in and out during combat.


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## Cadfan (Jun 3, 2008)

Or fights with a wand in one hand, and a sword in the other.  Worth it if you're serious about multiclassing enough to pick up the encounter power swap, and maybe the daily power swap.


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## mattdm (Jun 3, 2008)

rkanodia said:
			
		

> If those conditions are not both met, then you are going to find out that your multiclass skill has a terrible chance to hit and/or low damage and/or requires you to juggle weapons in combat.




Hmmm. What about some mechanism by which the half-elf gets a boost to to-hit with the dilettante power? (Maybe by allowing it to use Cha even if it's not normally a Cha-based power?)


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## Raith5 (Jun 3, 2008)

None of the above - I thought the races are all good and interesting. Well balanced too.


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## small pumpkin man (Jun 3, 2008)

mattdm said:
			
		

> Hmmm. What about some mechanism by which the half-elf gets a boost to to-hit with the dilettante power? (Maybe by allowing it to use Cha even if it's not normally a Cha-based power?)



Perhaps. That's how the DragonBorn breath weapon works. On the other hand, in general, it would be nice if things like pact daggers and Holy Avengers were easier to get.


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## plutocracy (Jun 3, 2008)

Saitou said:
			
		

> You mean, _besides_ the Half Elf?
> 
> The only thing the Halfelf seems good for is a Star pact Warlock. Maybe a Warlord, but it wouldn't be all that optimal.




In addition to rocking out the warlock class, you forgot paladin!   Paladins don't need STR anymore, you can have all CHA based powers with a nice big CON score for extra healing surges and HP (right up the paladin's alley).  You can take the dilettante power from the warlock class list (eyebite).  You can even multiclass warlock all the way up with the paladin warlock dabbler. 

So yes, 1/2 elves only rock 2 classes (paladin/warlock) and are passable at a third (warlord), just like pretty much all the other races. 

Worst race= eladrin.  Int AND Dex?  crap.  Both provide the same bonuses to REF and AC, and no class really excels with having both of them high (wand wizard being small exception).


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## Masquerade (Jun 3, 2008)

I would say Tiefling. Fire resistance is too conditional and Infernal Wrath is no Elven Accuracy.

Personally, I like the Half-Elf. Much improved from its 3.5 version.


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## rkanodia (Jun 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Or fights with a wand in one hand, and a sword in the other.  Worth it if you're serious about multiclassing enough to pick up the encounter power swap, and maybe the daily power swap.



This is doable, but it comes at a cost beyond that of the feats/class abilities; namely, you're giving up the +1 AC/+1 Ref that a typical Warlord gets from his shield.

An artful dodger rogue might be able to pull off that stunt and not give anything up by grabbing a wand or rod and some Warlock powers.  But again, that is a case of specifically finding a compatible combination of stats and tools.  You can't just say, "You know, my 16th-level Class X has decided that he wants to be more like Class Y, so he's going to take some multiclass feats" and expect to come up with something good, or even average.


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## Falling Icicle (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't like the Half-Elf primarily because their racial traits don't make any sense. +2 Con? Where the hell did that come from? And on top of that, they got one of those lousy, "aura" like +1 skill for allies abilities, which I really don't like for several reasons. The dilettente feature is also really odd. I can see why they'd be given a very flexible feature, but why does it have to be an ability from another class? I think a bonus feat or skill would have made more sense, and been more in line with their human heritage. Instead of creating a race that really feels like a half human, half elf, what they came up with feels to me like a very bizarre and contrived race.


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## kennew142 (Jun 3, 2008)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> I don't like the Half-Elf primarily because their racial traits don't make any sense. +2 Con? Where the hell did that come from?




Hybrid vigor?

I hate half-elves for the same reason I hate half-orcs and half-dragons. I don't allow them in my homebrew games.


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## Wik (Jun 3, 2008)

Y'know, I like the half-elf.  When I first read over the races, I thought - "Finally, they've made half-elves _playable_ again!  And I love the idea of a group diplomacy boost.  That's nice.  And they have feats that give boosts to other skills, as well.


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## Gloombunny (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm very unfond of the rules for half-elves, tieflings, and humans.


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## Nifft (Jun 3, 2008)

*Humans*.

"Exterminate the brutes!", -- N


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## Kitirat (Jun 3, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> *Humans*.
> 
> "Exterminate the brutes!", -- N




A problem with half-elves is I have been playtesting the snot out of them and I can say the +2 floating stat and +2 Chr is too strong and over shadows humans.  I also had given them hybrid synergy which allows them to recharge an encounter power with an action point (only encounter powers gained through diliente or multi-classing) and that actually seems the better gain but still feels a bit to one sided.  Like they are being forced to be multi-classed which was not the goal I was looking for.

Still working on it.

The other races seem pretty good so far save for the tielfling which seems slightly less powerful.  HOWEVER, we are still at low levels in the testing and the higher level tiefling feats look great.


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## MindWanderer (Jun 3, 2008)

I think they all have uses--and that half-elf, at least, got a big boost by _not_ being unplayable.  I'm comforted by the fact that 5 out of the 8 races have gotten at least one vote.

I'll add a sixth: dragonborn.  At first, I liked Dragon Breath as a weenie-wiper.  Then I saw that every class get AoEs of some sort.  Draconic Heritage is nice, but the fact that it keys off an ability score than the Dragonborn doesn't get a bonus to results in built-in MAD.  Str and Cha sounds like a useful combo, but it's really not: Paladins and Rogues should focus on one or the other but not both; it lends itself well to a melee cleric but melee clerics suck compared to "laser clerics."  It's good for warlords, and solid for hammer/axe fighters.  So it's not so much that dragonborn are really that horrible, but what they are is a trap.


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## Rpgraccoon (Jun 4, 2008)

I like the half-elves better but still I am disappointed.

Nonetheless, I hate the dragonborn and still think the should not exist and will not allow them in a campaign if I run one. Thus, they are the winners.

Though halfings and tieflings get a mention for horrible fluff but good mechanics. with the exception the halfings cannot use a staff. 

Why do I like the half-elves better you may wonder. 

+2 Con this is due to the human heritage in my eyes. It was said that they are more durable than elves and can thrive in any environment and this makes it show. 

+2 Charisma I hate it some half-elves may be xenophobic I despise this a lot. would +2 Mental depending on heritage hurt that bad. 
Drow: +2 Charisma Elf: +2 Wisdom Eldarin +2 Int

Then the access to feats would change of course.

The other thing I like is the multi-class power though week is shows that half-elves pick up a multitude of different and *unique* skills. That others would not of. Yes humans can get a feat or a skill from there class but not a cross-class/multi.

finally the group +1 Diplomate thing is stupid and needs to go period.

as for their skills I am not sure.

So for the last two fixes I am not sure what needs to be done but it is pretty easy to fix. Half-elves have always needed fixes since Wotc got a hold of them. At least the got some of it right this time.


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## Saitou (Jun 4, 2008)

> Though halfings and tieflings get a mention for horrible fluff but good mechanics. with the exception the halfings cannot use a staff.



They can, they just can't make a melee attack with it.


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## dasheiff (Jun 4, 2008)

plutocracy said:
			
		

> In addition to rocking out the warlock class, you forgot paladin!   Paladins don't need STR anymore, you can have all CHA based powers with a nice big CON score for extra healing surges and HP (right up the paladin's alley).  You can take the dilettante power from the warlock class list (eyebite).  You can even multiclass warlock all the way up with the paladin warlock dabbler.
> 
> So yes, 1/2 elves only rock 2 classes (paladin/warlock) and are passable at a third (warlord), just like pretty much all the other races.
> 
> Worst race= eladrin.  Int AND Dex?  crap.  Both provide the same bonuses to REF and AC, and no class really excels with having both of them high (wand wizard being small exception).




Sadly, a Paladin that weilds two shields can't be done, since many of the chr still need a weapon. (Could a shield be a poor, but count as, a weapon?)

Totallly agreee about the Eladrin.  Int AND Dex is one of the three pointless combinations. Ironicly, Wis and Chr actually work with the Chr based Paladin. Int and Dex is now only useful for the now suboptional Intelligence based Rogue.


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## dasheiff (Jun 4, 2008)

Rpgraccoon said:
			
		

> finally the group +1 Diplomate thing is stupid and needs to go period.




That's only if your group doesn't use skill challenges. Since skill challenges force skill rolls it's nice to have the boost.


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## rkanodia (Jun 4, 2008)

The group diplomacy thing may be somewhat useful, but it seems like exactly the kind of fiddly little bonus that WotC was supposedly eliminating.  Just eliminate the half-elf's own diplomacy bonus.  Increase Group Diplomacy to +2 if you have to.  Or eliminate Group Diplomacy outright.  Having two bonuses to the same skill, but in different forms, is just more junk than you need.


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## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2008)

I voted *eldarin*, because, AFAIK, they aren't even in the Player's Handbook.  

Eladrin, on the other hand....


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## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2008)

dasheiff said:
			
		

> ...
> Totallly agreee about the Eladrin.  Int AND Dex is one of the three pointless combinations. Ironicly, Wis and Chr actually work with the Chr based Paladin. Int and Dex is now only useful for the now suboptional Intelligence based Rogue.



It sounds like the Intelligence/Dexterity combo for being an eladrin works nicely with one of the Wizard builds. Time will tell, once we get our Player's Handbooks.


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## Irda Ranger (Jun 4, 2008)

I'm a bit surprised by two of the results:

1. Half-elves beating Tieflings. Tieflings look obviously weaker to me.

2. Haflings getting as many votes as they are. Their luck power is probably the best racial power in the game, easy, with the only possible exception of Elven Accuracy.


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## Kitirat (Jun 4, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> I'm a bit surprised by two of the results:
> 
> 1. Half-elves beating Tieflings. Tieflings look obviously weaker to me.
> 
> 2. Haflings getting as many votes as they are. Their luck power is probably the best racial power in the game, easy, with the only possible exception of Elven Accuracy.




I ran a 11 encounter, 20 hour game a week or two ago (over two days).  The halfling used their reroll ability in every combat encounter and 6 of the time turned a critical into a miss.  2 of the other times he turned a hit into a miss.

It is an AWESOME ability.  Just awesome.  By itself, the halfling is strong, but add the +2 to AC when next to 2 medium+sized opponents feat and you have one hell of a race.


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## Ahglock (Jun 4, 2008)

doctorhook said:
			
		

> It sounds like the Intelligence/Dexterity combo for being an eladrin works nicely with one of the Wizard builds. Time will tell, once we get our Player's Handbooks.




Since it seems many feats have stat pre-reqs I'd be wary of discounting any attribute bonus.


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## Nifft (Jun 4, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> The other races seem pretty good so far save for the tielfling which seems slightly less powerful.  HOWEVER, we are still at low levels in the testing and the higher level tiefling feats look great.



 Tieflings make very good Warlocks (Fey or Star) and decent Wizards, Paladins or Warlords.

You have to make good use of his Hellfire Blood and Ferocious Rebuke feats.

Cheers, -- N


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## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2008)

Ahglock said:
			
		

> Since it seems many feats have stat pre-reqs I'd be wary of discounting any attribute bonus.



I completely agree, Ahglock. It seems like a lot of folks want to jump on the "X stat sucks", IMO, prematurely.


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## Kitirat (Jun 4, 2008)

I think discounting stats is an issue but con is the least useful for most feats.  Str and Dex and Int are the big feat stats.


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## Evilhalfling (Jun 4, 2008)

kennew142 said:
			
		

> I hate half-elves for the same reason I hate half-orcs and half-dragons.




QFT 
I think half elf suckage is a feature not a flaw.


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## rkanodia (Jun 4, 2008)

I think tieflings are terrible too - Ferocious Rebuke is not nearly good enough to justify its pain-in-the-ass trigger mechanism - but somehow, half-elves just make me mad, because Dilettante _seems_ like it should be an awesome ability when you first read it.  Then you try to build a character, and it turns out that the best you can do is 'decent', and even then, only if you try really hard.

The Fire Resist on tieflings is interesting, but who knows how often it will come up.  Though I suppose you could kind of force the issue by having a Tiefling Paladin in a group with a fire-heavy wizard


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 4, 2008)

Wow, surprised at all the Tiefling hate.  They seem like a decent race to me.



> Ferocious Rebuke is not nearly good enough to justify its pain-in-the-ass trigger mechanism




Ferocious Rebuke, maybe not.  But Fiery Rebuke... yes please.

Anyway, on to the topic at hand:

Whether or not it's subpar (though I think it is), the half-elf is my least favorite of the races.  It just leaves me wanting.  The whole idea of converting an at-will power to an encounter power seems pretty pathetic to me.  Maybe there are some combos I'm not aware of yet, but most at-will powers are pretty marginal in terms of usefulness... just let half-elves pick an at-will from another class and use it at-will.

I think I might let half-elf characters choose their heritage.  I'll be replacing the "at-will as an encounter power" and let half-elves choose either the Elf's or Eladrin's encounter power.


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## rkanodia (Jun 4, 2008)

Actually, I was just trying to talk about Infernal Wrath.  Even without the trigger, though, I still think it's worse than Elven Accuracy.  Maybe some Artful Dodgers and Warlocks will find Infernal Wrath to be better, but I doubt it.

Fiery Rebuke is decent, I will give you that.


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## Bold or Stupid (Jun 4, 2008)

I've been thinking this for a while, and I think all the races are pretty good. I've eventually decided on Tieflings being the weakest and losing the race due to tail drag.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 4, 2008)

rkanodia said:
			
		

> Actually, I was just trying to talk about Infernal Wrath.  Even without the trigger, though, I still think it's worse than Elven Accuracy.  Maybe some Artful Dodgers and Warlocks will find Infernal Wrath to be better, but I doubt it.
> 
> Fiery Rebuke is decent, I will give you that.




It's pretty conditional, I'll give you that.  As for being worse than Elven Accuracy... isn't that a Daily power, and the Tiefling's an Encounter?  If that's the case, I think the comparison is unfair.  If not, then yes they're pretty uneven

I like Infernal Wrath for Paladins myself; they've got good armor, true, but they're _supposed_ to soak damage.  So it's less situational for them than, say, the Warlock or Rogue you mentioned.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 4, 2008)

...Am I the first to vote for something for more then just mechanical reasons?

I went against tieflings.  Sorry, I don't want an entire race of angsty loners who only trust their closest friends and have names like "Despair" or "Random."  I think I spontaniously grew a trenchcoat and my hair flipped itself over one of my eyes while reading their section in the PRC.


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## silentounce (Jun 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:
			
		

> ...Am I the first to vote for something for more then just mechanical reasons?
> 
> I went against tieflings.  Sorry, I don't want an entire race of angsty loners who only trust their closest friends and have names like "Despair" or "Random."  I think I spontaniously grew a trenchcoat and my hair flipped itself over one of my eyes while reading their section in the PRC.




I doubt it.  That's one of the flaws of this poll.  The question is too vague.  Worst race mechanically?  Worst race flavor wise?  Etc.

Anyway, I'm not allowing Tieflings in my game for similar reasons to the ones you described.  I'm not too fond of eladrin, either.  Although I like a lot of the race options in the MM.


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## Wepwawet (Jun 4, 2008)

I voted Eldarin.
Because the spelling is wrong.

I haven't read the books yet, so I don't know much but (apart from being spellt Eladrin) I believe they are quite balanced...


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:
			
		

> ...Am I the first to vote for something for more then just mechanical reasons?
> 
> I went against tieflings.  Sorry, I don't want an entire race of angsty loners who only trust their closest friends and have names like "Despair" or "Random."  I think I spontaniously grew a trenchcoat and my hair flipped itself over one of my eyes while reading their section in the PRC.




Yeah, silentounce pretty much nailed it.

Me, I judged the races on mechanical options.  I tend to play and name my characters however I want, not as the book tells me, so that wasn't an important criterion for me.  I generally find that text to be uninteresting and uninspired across the board.


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## silentounce (Jun 4, 2008)

Wepwawet said:
			
		

> I voted Eldarin.
> Because the spelling is wrong.
> 
> I haven't read the books yet, so I don't know much but (apart from being spellt Eladrin) I believe they are quite balanced...




The above quote contains 100% of your required daily irony intake.*

*Based on a 2,000 word diet.


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## Zurai (Jun 4, 2008)

Eladrin are mechanically the weakest race. They have horrible stat bonus synergies, their racial stat bonuses are both to Knowledge skills (which only one guy in the party really needs), they have a built in weakness (fey type in addition to whatever else they are), they get the fewest racial feats in the game, and there's really only one build of one class that really favors them.


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## ZetaStriker (Jun 4, 2008)

Half-elves seem worst to me, unfortunately. At-will class powers just don't stack well against the other racial powers available, and the powers, rather than the stat boosts, are what will lead my decision.


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## MindWanderer (Jun 4, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> they have a built in weakness (fey type in addition to whatever else they are)



How is that a weakness?  They're fey instead of natural, so what?







			
				Zurai said:
			
		

> and there's really only one build of one class that really favors them.



They make solid wizards, obviously, but are also great rogues and archery rangers, and good Dex-based fighters, warlocks, and tactical warlords.


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## WalterKovacs (Jun 5, 2008)

Stat wise: Humans, Dwarves and Eladrin are all quite weak. Humans because they only get one [but the +1 to all non-AC defenses makes it so that it doesn't effect saves at least]. Eladrin only help one save, and are really only using both pumps to their fullest as a Wizard. Dwarves are worse off in that sense, as only a fighter would use Wisdom and Con for class powers, and even then, it's feat related, and the bonus is not in the Fighter's primary stat of STR, but in a pair of secondaries ... with CON not being a "save stat" in that case. Half-elves are similarly only really using both of their stats as a Warlock, and Halflings as a Rogue. On the flip side, Dragonborn has 4 [Cleric, Paladin, Rogue and Warlord], Elves have 3 [Fighter, Ranger, Wizard] and Tiefling has 2 [Warlock and Warlord].


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## Zurai (Jun 5, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> How is that a weakness?  They're fey instead of natural, so what?They make solid wizards, obviously, but are also great rogues and archery rangers, and good Dex-based fighters, warlocks, and tactical warlords.



No, I'm pretty sure they're fey AND natural - and there are no bonuses for being any certain type. Only penalties.

They don't make "great" archery rangers because rangers have no int-based abilities at all. None. Not a single one. There are also zero Int-based feats that are useful to rangers in specific (Linguist and Jack of All Trades could be "useful" but they're hardly a reason to pump up your Int all of their own). Their racial skills are irrelevant for rangers, their racial power is not very useful for archery rangers in particular (since most archery powers give you a shift in addition to the damage).

The only class they're ideally suited for is the dex-int based wizard. No other class makes extensive use of both intelligence and dexterity, and intelligence has zero bonuses to a typical character that dexterity doesn't already give.


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## redwulf25_ci (Jun 5, 2008)

small pumpkin man said:
			
		

> Perhaps. That's how the DragonBorn breath weapon works. On the other hand, in general, it would be nice if things like pact daggers and Holy Avengers were easier to get.




IIRC Pactblades are a 3rd level magic item. If they're hard to get it's your DM's fault.


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## redwulf25_ci (Jun 5, 2008)

kennew142 said:
			
		

> Hybrid vigor?
> 
> I hate half-elves for the same reason I hate half-orcs and half-dragons. I don't allow them in my homebrew games.




Mind sharing what that reason actually is?


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## small pumpkin man (Jun 5, 2008)

redwulf25_ci said:
			
		

> IIRC Pactblades are a 3rd level magic item. If they're hard to get it's your DM's fault.



Man, I wrote that ages ago . I didn't mean that pact blades in particular were hard to get, but that they were essentially unique in their state of "easy to get weapon & implement combo". Holy Avengers are absurdly high level and and Clerics need a feat to use them. At the time I didn't realize Wizards could just use staves (although staves do suck as a weapon, and aren't great as a Wizard implement choice).

I suppose it's good because it promotes choice. It just looks like a lot of hoops at first glance, and multiclassing allready has a lot of hoops.


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## MindWanderer (Jun 5, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> No, I'm pretty sure they're fey AND natural - and there are no bonuses for being any certain type. Only penalties.



Nope.  You can only have one origin.  And in the MM, they're "Medium fey humanoid."


			
				Zurai said:
			
		

> They don't make "great" archery rangers because rangers have no int-based abilities at all. None. Not a single one. There are also zero Int-based feats that are useful to rangers in specific (Linguist and Jack of All Trades could be "useful" but they're hardly a reason to pump up your Int all of their own). Their racial skills are irrelevant for rangers, their racial power is not very useful for archery rangers in particular (since most archery powers give you a shift in addition to the damage).
> 
> The only class they're ideally suited for is the dex-int based wizard. No other class makes extensive use of both intelligence and dexterity, and intelligence has zero bonuses to a typical character that dexterity doesn't already give.



So to be good at a class, you have to make sense of both of your attribute bonuses, or have a class feature that synergises well?  Let's see, then:

- Humans: Only one +2, so that already puts them at a disadvantage.  The extra skill is okay, but it has to be a class skill (unlike the Eladrin's bonus skill).  The bonus feat is only good if there's something you're absolutely dying for, and even then you just have to be a little patient (you get more feats in 4e than there are really good feats to have).  So they're no good at anything.
- Elves: Good archery rangers, given.  Being able to shift in difficult terrain is meh most of the time.  And no one but a ranger or ranger multiclass will get much use out of the bow prof.  So they're good at only one class.
- Half-elves: Good star-pact warlocks by stat bonuses.  Their abilities are useless from the perpective of any one class.  So again, just one class they're good at.
- Dwarves: Nothing by stat bonuses.  Dwarven Resilience is good for anyone.  So a solid choice for con- or wis- based builds (some fighters, infernal-pact warlocks), and that's about it.
- Halflings.  Trickster rogues.  Second Chance is, like Dwarven Resilience, nice for anyone but not especially nice for any one.  Small weapons hurt all weapon-using classes except rogue.  So they're good fey-pact warlocks as well.
- Dragonborn: They look like good paladins, but it's a trap because of 4-way MAD.  Inspiring Warlord, however, works well, as does melee cleric.  If you like their racial features, you can pretend they get a Con bonus, because they need Con to make use of them.  That makes them good Con-based fighters, and warlocks of any type.
- Tiefling: Fey-pact warlocks are the only class their ability scores lend them to, and none of their other abilities are class-specific.  Their one really good ability is tied to Cha, so they can make good paladins and tolerable inspiring warlords.  Good trickster rogues, too, due to their skill bonuses.

So we have 1 race good in 0 classes, 3 races good in 1 class, 2 good in 2 classes, and 2 races good at 4 classes.  All this is build-specific, of course.  In that context, using this type of evaluation, eladrin aren't exceptionally bad.  Oddly, tieflings come out as winners, tied with dragonborn.


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## Zurai (Jun 5, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> So to be good at a class, you have to make sense of both of your attribute bonuses, or have a class feature that synergises well?



Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth - or pretending you said something you didn't. You claimed they made "great" rangers (as opposed to "good" fighters, warlocks, and warlords). I said they did not make "great" rangers, and that the only class they were *ideally suited for* was whichever implement it is for wizards that concentrates on dex + int. I never said they had to use both attribute bonuses to be good at a class. Actually, I've said elsewhere that Eladrin make pretty decent Rangers. They just aren't "great" at it. They're better than, say, Dragonborn, but they're worse than Humans or Elves.


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## Kitirat (Jun 5, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth - or pretending you said something you didn't. You claimed they made "great" rangers (as opposed to "good" fighters, warlocks, and warlords). I said they did not make "great" rangers, and that the only class they were *ideally suited for* was whichever implement it is for wizards that concentrates on dex + int. I never said they had to use both attribute bonuses to be good at a class. Actually, I've said elsewhere that Eladrin make pretty decent Rangers. They just aren't "great" at it. They're better than, say, Dragonborn, but they're worse than Humans or Elves.




It is interesting that after so many votes half-elves are still far and away voted weak most often.  I've found a solution for my homebrew campaign but in my world everyone gets a regional boon based on their location (such as a free language and a bonus to a skill most commonly).  Otherwise I removed the group diplomacy since it does not jive with my world.  Here ya go:

Born heroes and leaders who combine the best features of humans and elves, half-elves have been forced to learn diplomacy to survive in the relentless realm of the northern lights.  Unlike in other realms, being near a half-elf will often bring less instead of more tolerance to their allies.  However through this struggle, the half-elves have found themselves even more adaptable to their surroundings.
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 5´ 5˝–6´ 2˝
Average Weight: 130–190 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Elven, choice of one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight

Dilettante: At 1st level, you choose an at-will power from a class different from yours. You can use that power as an encounter power.
Dual Heritage: You can take feats that have either elf or human as a prerequisite (as well as those specifically for half-elves), as long as you meet any other requirements.
Culturally Adaptive: You may take an additional regional boon.  It does not have to be from your starting region, however it must be from a northern region if you’re a northerner, or from the south if a southerner.  Bonuses to the same skill take the higher of the boons bonuses to each category and resistances to the same type take the higher of the amounts.








New Heroic Feats 

Hybrid Synergy
Prerequisites: Half-elf
Effect: You may recharge any encounter ability gained from your dilettante racial ability or any multi-class feat whenever you use an action point.  The recharged ability can be used as part of the action gained by the action point.
Regional Adaption
Prerequisites: Half-elf
Effect: You may choose a new regional boon from a region you have visited during your last level.  Bonuses to skills and resistances take the highest in each category.  This feat may be taken multiple times, even gaining different boons from the same region, but only once per level.

Paragon Feats
Diversification
Prerequisites: Half-elf
Effect: You may take a heroic tier encounter power from a class different than yours.  You can use that power as a daily power.

Epic Feats
Hybrid Strength
Prerequisites: Half-elf
Effect: You may recharge any encounter ability gained from your dilettante racial ability or any multi-class feat whenever you use an action point.  The recharged ability can be used as part of the action gained by the action point.  Alternately, you may recharge your diversification daily power instead of an encounter power with your hybrid synergy ability.


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## Anax (Jun 5, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> - Humans: Only one +2, so that already puts them at a disadvantage.  The extra skill is okay, but it has to be a class skill (unlike the Eladrin's bonus skill).  The bonus feat is only good if there's something you're absolutely dying for, and even then you just have to be a little patient (you get more feats in 4e than there are really good feats to have).  So they're no good at anything.




What about the way they get three of their class's at-will powers rather than two like every other race?


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## MindWanderer (Jun 5, 2008)

Anax said:
			
		

> What about the way they get three of their class's at-will powers rather than two like every other race?



 In most cases, that's a trap as well, paragon multiclassing (which is also a trap, IMO) being an exception.

- Cleric: There's 2 Wis at-wills and two Str ones.  For three to be decent, you have to be a hybrid melee/laser cleric, which is a suboptimal build.
- Fighter: Cleave and either Reaping Strike or Tide of Iron are your two starters.  Shield users can take Reaping Strike, and it's not horrible, but two-weapon fighters are stuck with the useless Sure Strike.
- Paladin: Same deal as the cleric.  A third at-will is only if you opted to go hybrid Str/Cha and make Wis tertiary (and thus, by level 28 it will be hugely behind).
- Ranger: There's one ranged power, one melee power, and two ranged or melee.  So again, unless you're a hybrid, you have no freedom of choice... and you get Careful Attack, which is useless.
- Rogue: Here, being a human is pretty good.  You get your choice of either Riposte Strike or Sly Flourish, then both Deft Strike and Piercing Strike.  All good choices.
- Warlock: For Fey pact warlocks, the two Con-based powers aren't helpful.  Picking up Dire Radiance for an Infernal pact warlock, or either of the other two for a Star pact warlock, is fine.  So humans can have some benefit here.  On the other hand, all three at-will pact powers are pretty similar in function.  Not horrible, not great.
- Warlord: Another solid use for a human.  Commander's Strike for tactical warlords, Furious Smash for inspiring warlords, Viper's Strike and Wolf Pack Tactics for both.  The extra tactical options should appeal to warlord players.  Thumbs up.
- Wizard: No argument here.  If I were to play a wizard, I'd be human, hands down.  I'd take a fourth at-will if I could get it somehow.

So humans are, IMO, well-suited for only three classes by virtue of this feature.







			
				Zurai said:
			
		

> Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth - or pretending you said something you didn't. You claimed they made "great" rangers (as opposed to "good" fighters, warlocks, and warlords). I said they did not make "great" rangers, and that the only class they were *ideally suited for* was whichever implement it is for wizards that concentrates on dex + int. I never said they had to use both attribute bonuses to be good at a class. Actually, I've said elsewhere that Eladrin make pretty decent Rangers. They just aren't "great" at it. They're better than, say, Dragonborn, but they're worse than Humans or Elves.



Oh, I'll stand by "great," because I was trying to use what I inferred as your criteria rather than my own.  Fey Step is sheer awesomeness for a ranger of either type: a TWF ranger can teleport in to melee without getting his fragile butt beat on en route, or teleport out of trouble afterwards, and an archery ranger can teleport to a well-defended spot like a ledge and snipe.  The Dex increase plus this make them a top ranger choice in my book.  Since few "ideally-suited" race/class combinations exist (dragonborn melee cleric and inspiring warlord, elf archery ranger, half-elf star pact warlock, halfling trickster rogue, and tiefling fey pact warlock), at least compared to the gamut of combinations possible, saying that they're not "ideally suited" to anything isn't helpful--neither are dwarves or humans, and only dragonborn are only "ideally suited" for more than one particular build.


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## med stud (Jun 5, 2008)

The half elf's ability to take an at-will power as an encounter power is one of the abilities that looks worse on paper than it is. Since a combat is 4-6 rounds long and you would vary the use of at will powers anyways, you don't have to notice the change from at will to per encounter. Since you also can pick any at will power, you can often pick an ability that rounds your character out. The examples I think about immidiatly are Eyebite and Schorching burst, both of which can be very nice and they don't necessarily need to be spammed.


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## Zurai (Jun 5, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> saying that they're not "ideally suited" to anything isn't helpful--neither are dwarves or humans, and only dragonborn are only "ideally suited" for more than one particular build.



I strongly disagree. Humans are pretty ideal for nearly *every* class on the strength of always having a maximized primary stat and on the strength of the Human racial feats. Seriously, just Action Surge makes Humans incredible for any class - it's one of the best feats in the game by far. Compare Action Surge to Eladrin Soldier for a laugh.


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## Spatula (Jun 5, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:
			
		

> Dwarves are worse off in that sense, as only a fighter would use Wisdom and Con for class powers, and even then, it's feat related, and the bonus is not in the Fighter's primary stat of STR, but in a pair of secondaries ... with CON not being a "save stat" in that case.
> ...On the flip side, Dragonborn has 4 [Cleric, Paladin, Rogue and Warlord], Elves have 3 [Fighter, Ranger, Wizard] and Tiefling has 2 [Warlock and Warlord].



Dragonborn don't make good rogues if dwarves don't make good fighters.  Rogues would want a good Str or a good Cha but probably not both, and in any case their primary stat is Dex.  Similarly, how do elves make great fighters and not dwarves, when you don't need Dex (except for blade feats) and Wis is a "secondary" stat?


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## Spatula (Jun 5, 2008)

Zurai said:
			
		

> The only class they're ideally suited for is the dex-int based wizard. No other class makes extensive use of both intelligence and dexterity, and intelligence has zero bonuses to a typical character that dexterity doesn't already give.



Eladrin are also suited for blade-using tactical warlords.  Which kinda echoes the earlier point that in all the discussion of certain stat combos being worthless, people are entirely discounting feat prereqs.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 5, 2008)

I voted elf

I hope you did not mean mechanically..........


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## Kitirat (Jun 5, 2008)

Dice4Hire said:
			
		

> I voted elf
> 
> I hope you did not mean mechanically..........




OK for future readers who read this, yes I meant mechancially, not flavorwise or overall.

See ya,
Ken


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## Mengu (Jun 5, 2008)

My answer would be either none of them, or all of them except human. You can be human and make just about any character concept work. For the other races, the moment you start looking at something non-cliche, you start running into problems. Try making a Tiefling Fighter, Eladrin Paladin, Dwarf Rogue, Halfling Cleric, Dragonborn Wizard, Elf Warlord, or Half-elf Ranger, and you'll see what I mean.

It's difficult to ignore the difference in competance between a Halfling Cleric and a Dwarf Cleric, or between a Halfling Rogue and a Dwarf Rogue.

I think this is one of the few steps back from 3.x, where you could take a Halfling Cleric, give him a level of Rogue, and be an excellent tumbling combat healer. Or you could give the Dwarf Rogue a level of Fighter for a very survivable flanker, and a great dungeoneer.

In 4.0, in order not be outdone by the other characters, you pretty much have to play one of the few "recommended" race/class/stat combinations.


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## Chibbot (Jun 5, 2008)

Halfling.

I haven't studied the races in depth, but it seems like the kept penalties for being small (can't use certain weapons, don't do bonus damage with certain weapons), but removed the advantage of being small (AC/to-hit bonus).


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## Spatula (Jun 5, 2008)

Chibbot said:
			
		

> Halfling.
> 
> I haven't studied the races in depth, but it seems like the kept penalties for being small (can't use certain weapons, don't do bonus damage with certain weapons), but removed the advantage of being small (AC/to-hit bonus).



Small in 3e had lots of disadvantages, using smaller weapons was just part of it.  Namely the slower speed and grapple penalties (encumberance penalty too, but that's not so important), which the 4e halfling doesn't have.


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## Chibbot (Jun 5, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Small in 3e had lots of disadvantages, using smaller weapons was just part of it.  Namely the slower speed and grapple penalties (encumberance penalty too, but that's not so important), which the 4e halfling doesn't have.



 True. I didn't mean to say that all of the disadvantages of being small in 3.x were still in 4e.

What I meant was that in 3.x there were both advantages and penalties to being small, while in 4e they kept penalties (they changed what they are, and got rid of several, but they're still there) but seem to have gotten rid of any of the advantages.

I'd be happy to be wrong - I'm a fan of the stunties myself. From my initial look through though, it does appear to be the case.


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## Kichwas (Jun 9, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:
			
		

> Half-elves are similarly only really using both of their stats as a Warlock, and Halflings as a Rogue. On the flip side, Dragonborn has 4 [Cleric, Paladin, Rogue and Warlord], Elves have 3 [Fighter, Ranger, Wizard] and Tiefling has 2 [Warlock and Warlord].




Keep in mind that a paladin, even a Cha based one, needs a Str and Con of 15 each (to wear plate).

Half-elves thus end up using that Con bonus on Paladin very nicely:

ex:
15
13 - 15
10
10
14
14 - 16


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## stonegod (Jun 9, 2008)

arcady said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that a paladin, even a Cha based one, needs a Str and Con of 15 each (to wear plate).



Actually, that only matters for half-elves that didn't take a class w/ the plate proficiency: If they get it, they can wear it regardless of Str/Con.


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## Kichwas (Jun 9, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Actually, that only matters for half-elves that didn't take a class w/ the plate proficiency: If they get it, they can wear it regardless of Str/Con.




Where do you get that from? I read it the other way - on prereqs for feats it says that if you ever lose the prereq you can't use the feat anymore.

Is there something that says a class that gets it can use it even without the prereq? I'd be very interested in finding that.


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## silentounce (Jun 9, 2008)

arcady said:
			
		

> Where do you get that from? I read it the other way - on prereqs for feats it says that if you ever lose the prereq you can't use the feat anymore.
> 
> Is there something that says a class that gets it can use it even without the prereq? I'd be very interested in finding that.




Someone sent the help desk an email asking a similar question about a fighter that didn't have the required abilities for a type of armor.  The response was that they can wear the armor.  It was relatively recent, within the last 24 hours.  I don't have search, or I'd find it for you.  They give an explanation as well.


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## Spatula (Jun 9, 2008)

arcady said:
			
		

> Where do you get that from? I read it the other way - on prereqs for feats it says that if you ever lose the prereq you can't use the feat anymore.
> 
> Is there something that says a class that gets it can use it even without the prereq? I'd be very interested in finding that.



You don't need any particular ability score to wear armor.  You need certain ability scores to take feats that give you armor proficiencies.  If your class gives you those proficienies to begin with, then you don't need anything.  Think of the 3e ranger who got his or her "combat style" feats regardless of whether or not the ranger met the prereqs.

Also, there is no ability score damage, and thus no way to lose that particular prereq for the armor feats.

At some point I saw some links to some basic FAQs for the new books, which answered this same question... But I cannot for the life of me re-locate those pages on wizard's site.


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## Particle_Man (Jun 9, 2008)

Too soon to tell.

I will defend the Eladrin though.  Yes their stat bonuses don't synergize well, but Fey Step is Teh Awesome!11!111


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## ZombieRoboNinja (Jun 9, 2008)

Humans and dwarves have a lot of things going for them, despite the lack of sweet extra powers.

Elves, eladrin, dragonborn and halflings have those sweet powers.

Tieflings and half-elves seem to be the only races that don't have an exciting racial power but also don't have enough other bonuses to make up for that lack. Between the two, I said that tieflings were worse, since I can at least imagine a half-elf warlock or paladin or possible cleric; I can't think of a single class that I'd want to play as a tiefling above the other options. (I'd rather be a halfling or elf if I was a rogue, etc.)

EDIT: Also, there are some at-will powers that'd be nice cross-class, even as encounter powers. Eyebite, Thunderwave, and to a lesser extent Deft Strike, Hit and Run and Reaping Strike can all save your bacon. Personally, I think a cleric with Eyebite is almost worth the other weaknesses of the race.


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## bobthehappyzombie (Jun 9, 2008)

Edit - Reading 101 - F


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## Eldorian (Jun 9, 2008)

ZombieRoboNinja said:
			
		

> I can't think of a single class that I'd want to play as a tiefling above the other options. (I'd rather be a halfling or elf if I was a rogue, etc.)




Paladin.  Look at it closer.  It's actually kinda funny how good they are as a cha based defender.


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## Satori (Jun 9, 2008)

My gut instinct for the Tiefling was the same as everyone else.

_*"Ugh...such a cool race, but so lacking in crunch."*_

I played one anyway (because that's how I role), and I was pleasantly surprised with my Tiefling Warlock.

For one, I was able to minimize Charisma (Infernal Pact) without killing my social skills (Streetwise, Bluff, Intimidate), max Constitution, and keep Intelligence at 14 (16).  This freed up a number of points for Strength (I have a vision of a Plate wearing Warlock...).

The Fire Resistance didn't come into play...but Fire tends to be a REALLY common damage type (in general, at least), so I have a feeling I'll really appreciate that scaling resistance down the road.

What I REALLY loved was the +1 Hit vs Bloodied Foes. Combine this with the Hellfire Blood racial feat (+1 Hit/Dmg with Fire/Fear) and Prime Shot and I had a pleasantly high To Hit score when doing what Warlocks do best...

...namely, killing off weak and dying foes!

It became sort of a table joke that my sole purpose was to mercy kill all the stragglers...except that we found out the hard way that a "Bloodied" foe is still just as dangerous as a full health enemy.

The only ability I forgot to use was the Racial Power (Something "Wrath")...which was my own fault and caused by my constant stumbling over the new rules.  Had I used it effectively, though, that would be ANOTHER bonus to Hit.

I see the Tiefling as a very capable character when used appropriately.


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## silentounce (Jun 9, 2008)

Satori said:
			
		

> My gut instinct for the Tiefling was the same as everyone else.
> 
> _*"Ugh...such a cool race, but so lacking in crunch."*_




I believe you're using a definition of the word "everyone" that I'm not quite familiar with.


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## Satori (Jun 10, 2008)

silentounce said:
			
		

> I believe you're using a definition of the word "everyone" that I'm not quite familiar with.










Oh, you're being sarcastic. 

Right.

Umm...by "everyone", I'm talking about the 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically, putting it just behind the Half-Elf.

Instead of "everyone", I probably should have said, "...the same as all 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically, thus showing a largely dominant trend in the current message board belief system regarding the viability of the Tiefling species."

 

As an aside, it dawned on me how GOOD those bonuses to Hit are.  

+1 vs Bloodied Foes
+1 Racial Feat
+1 Racial Encounter Power
---
+3 Total

That's equivalent to a +6 bonus to the appropriate stat!

For players who want to eek out that last bonus to Hit, the Tiefling might very well be a solid choice.


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## silentounce (Jun 10, 2008)

Satori said:
			
		

> Umm...by "everyone", I'm talking about the 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically, putting it just behind the Half-Elf.
> 
> Instead of "everyone", I probably should have said, "...the same as all 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically, thus showing a largely dominant trend in the current message board belief system regarding the viability of the Tiefling species."




So when people clicked on tiefling in the *Worst Race* poll what they were really trying to say was, Tieflings are "such a cool race"?  That's what you're reading into it.
If we're going to get into what you probably should have said, how about this, "the 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically shows that a largely dominant trend in the current message board belief system is that Tiefling is the worst race mechanically, and this does not imply in the least anything about whether or not said people think that Tieflings are _such a cool race_."

And, by the way, this poll didn't specify mechanically when I voted.  All it said was "worst race" and please tell us why with a comment. The OP didn't make that change until it had already been up for 60 hours.  So, those votes up there are a mixed bag.


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## Kichwas (Jun 10, 2008)

...

I think he pretty much just meant what he wrote.


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## Nail (Jun 10, 2008)

ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> Half-elves seem worst to me, unfortunately. At-will class powers just don't stack well against the other racial powers available, and the powers, rather than the stat boosts, are what will lead my decision.



Don't discount the half-elf!

They get their stat bonuses in two different stat pairings.

And the dilettante power will only get BETTER with each extra splat book they put out.  More classes = more WIN.


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## Satori (Jun 10, 2008)

silentounce said:
			
		

> So when people clicked on tiefling in the *Worst Race* poll what they were really trying to say was, Tieflings are "such a cool race"?  That's what you're reading into it.
> If we're going to get into what you probably should have said, how about this, "the 100+ people who voted Tiefling as the worst race mechanically shows that a largely dominant trend in the current message board belief system is that Tiefling is the worst race mechanically, and this does not imply in the least anything about whether or not said people think that Tieflings are _such a cool race_."
> 
> And, by the way, this poll didn't specify mechanically when I voted.  All it said was "worst race" and please tell us why with a comment. The OP didn't make that change until it had already been up for 60 hours.  So, those votes up there are a mixed bag.




No!  I refuse to argue! We're heading deep into Silly Land! 







---

Was anyone else impressed with the Eladrin?

I REALLY like their free Trained Skill and the nifty Encounter Teleport.

Unfortunately, they do seem a bit "Type Cast".


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