# Converting Psionic Creatures



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Converting Psionic Creatures

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This thread continues the idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of similar monsters. For this thread, we will be focusing on psionic monsters that first appeared in various Dungeon and Dragons products.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For a summary of psionic conversion suggestions, see this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=155051


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Up first....


Magenta’s Cat
Created by Roger Moore
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% chance of 3-6)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 1+1
% IN LAIR: Special
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hiding, silence, psionics
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: 170-220
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Several centuries ago a Wizardess named Magenta began experimenting to try to produce psionic ability in her familiar, a large black cat called (predictably) Midnight. Though she was successful in making Midnight psionic, an unintended side effect caused the cat to be released from its obligation as a familiar, and it escaped.

Though Midnight was never found again, it would seem that the cat was able to breed with others of the normal variety and produce psionic and intelligent offspring. The special genes for these powers are recessive, and thus the probability that any cat today will possess the powers of its ancestor is very low (something like 1 in 1,000).

All known psionic cats (called Magenta’s Cats) are reputed to be of the same deepest black color as the original. About two thirds of these cats are female. All have exceptional night vision, allowing them to see well in anything but absolute darkness, and very sensitive hearing.   These senses make the cats impossible to surprise.  The silence with which they move and their dark color allows them to surprise opponents on a 1-5 in shadowed areas and at night.  

Magenta’s Cats are intelligent in the extreme, and can apparently communicate with all feline creatures by means of a sort of limited empathy/telepathy. They may speak up to three languages besides the feline tongue and the language of neutral alignment.  It is 90% likely that at least one of these other three languages will be the common tongue, and 60% likely that another will be elven.

Magenta’s Cats are aloof and somewhat conceited; they all seem to feel they are vastly superior to any other thinking creature, although they are not given to “broadcasting” their powers. It is likely that any Magenta’s Cat aware it is being watched will act like a normal cat, not revealing its true nature until it chooses to or is forced to.

Though these creatures usually travel alone, it is possible to run into a small group of them, all adults, who have gathered to exchange information, feed, or mate. Singly or in groups, these cats are only known to inhabit towns and cities.  Litters have 3-5 kittens, with only a 10% chance of each offspring having the special powers of the psionic parent(s).  The chance is the same whether one or both parents are psionic.

The psionic powers of a Magenta’s Cat are as follows: Each has the Minor Devotions of Invisibility, Body Equilibrium, Cell Adjustment, and Molecular Agitation.  These powers are used at the seventh level of mastery. Psionic Invisibility will only be used as a last resort if the cat’s normal methods of staying out of sight fail. Body Equilibrium explains why Magenta’s Cats often leap from high buildings and cliffs to escape pursuit, since they are able to slow their descent to prevent harm, and also explains why now and then a confused peasant or traveler will report seeing a black cat walk across a lake or pond and not get wet.  Cell Adjustment removes any damage to the cat (unless it was killed outright) completely in one round. Molecular Agitation is rarely used, but explains why the homes of known cat-haters sometimes burn down inexplicably. Most people believe this is the vengeance of the Egyptian cat-goddess, Bast, or a likeminded deity. Magenta’s Cats probably know differently.

A magic-user of true neutral or partneutral alignment who has psionics may receive a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar if  the spell Find Familiar is cast successfully and a black cat is indicated as the type of familiar received. The base chance is 5%, plus an additional 1% per level of experience of the magic-user over the first. For a magic-user of true neutral alignment, this chance of success is unmodified; however, subtract 2% from the figure arrived at if the magicuser is neutral good, neutral evil, lawful neutral or chaotic neutral. Magic-users of other alignments will not be able to find a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar even if they are psionic. 

In addition to the normal powers of a black cat familiar, the Magenta’s Cat makes the magic-user impossible to surprise and can add its psionic strength points to its master’s in multiple psionic operations. The magic-user may likewise add his or her points to the cat’s to extend its powers, but the magic-user will not gain the cat’s psionic disciplines as his or her own, or vice versa. If the Magenta’s Cat familiar is killed, the magic-user immediately loses twice as many hit points as the cat had, permanently, and also loses all of his or her psionic
powers forever. Like all other familiars, the Magenta’s Cat gets a saving throw vs. magic when the Find Familiar spell is cast.

There is a 5% chance that a Magenta’s Cat will be acting as a familiar if encountered normally. If so, it will be linked to a Wizard of 11th to 18th level (d8 + 10, to generate level randomly) who will react with all powers possible if his or her familiar is threatened. There is a fair chance the cat will be wearing a jeweled (and possibly enchanted) collar of considerable value, as determined by the Dungeon Master.

A Magenta’s Cat acting as a familiar will be very near to its master or mistress, or to the home of that character.  Aside from this sort of “lair,” Magenta’s Cats have no lairs and collect no treasure.

From Dragon #58 (1982).


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2007)

How's this for a start?

Psi-Like Abilities: At will - body equilibrium; 1/day - body adjustment, cloud mind, matter agitation.  Manifester level 7th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Very nice.   We'll need some form of invisibility as a psi-like ability as well.

Do we want to add any of the former attack/defense modes, since it had all/all?

Attack/Defense Modes and Equivalent 3.5 Powers


Ego Whip (2nd, save)

Empty Mind (1st, no save)

Id Insinuation (2nd, save)

Intellect Fortress (4th, no save)

Mind Blast = Psionic blast (3rd, save)

Mind Thrust (1st, save)

Mental Barrier (3rd, no save)

Psychic Crush (5th, save)

Thought Shield (2nd, no save)

Tower of Iron Will (5th, save [harmless])


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2007)

this one wasn't in the Dragon Compendium, was it?  just checking...


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> this one wasn't in the Dragon Compendium, was it?  just checking...




Nope.


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## RavinRay (Aug 1, 2007)

I'd like to get on board this as psionics is something I like. BTW Shade, I have a longer list of Psionics/Magic Equivalencies I posted at WotC's psionics forum and which I'm updating.

Edit: Since _invisibility_ is no longer a 3.5 power (though it was in 3.0), the cat will have to use the arcane version, just as psionic duergar do.

A "magic-user with psionics" would be reworded as a multi-classing mage/psionic user. The "part-neutral alignment" brings up images of druid getting an advanced animal companion. Is there a feat that enables a druid to get a magical beast instead of an animal as an animal companion?

Of course, the Cat Lord would be another deity/entity interested in a magenta's cat's welfare.


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Good stuff, and thanks for the link to the great resource!


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## RavinRay (Aug 16, 2007)

*Updated Psionics-Magic Equivalencies*

I've updated the psionics-magic equivalencies list that I linked to at the WotC psionics forum in an Excel spreadsheet as an attachment. It includes only those spells in the _Player's Handbook_ and a couple in the _Epic Level Handbook_ and _Expanded Psionics Handbook_; and powers from the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_. In other words, only those spells and powers that are considered OGC and in the SRD (renamed as necessary from their original sources) are included (potentially this includes clerical domain spells that originally appeared in _Deities and Demigods_ too).

As you'll see, I've color-coded the psionic disciplines and spell schools according to the psionics-magic equivalence rules in the _XPH_. For example, clairsentience and divination have the same color, and telepathy and enchanment. The purpose is to see which pairs of matching powers and spells do not have matching disciplines and schools. This is apparent when one realizes that there are six psionic disciplines set opposite eight magic schools (with universal as a "ninth school").

I'll update the list with corrections as necessary.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Thanks, RavinRay.  That is an excellent resource.

I started them up in Homebrews.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Shall we stick with a normal cat's physical ability scores?   Int is Exceptional (15-16)...shall we put the other mental scores in a similar range?   Maybe a slightly higher Cha?


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## JiCi (Sep 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shall we stick with a normal cat's physical ability scores?   Int is Exceptional (15-16)...shall we put the other mental scores in a similar range?   Maybe a slightly higher Cha?



Well, psi-like abilities are Charisma-based, so a high charisma helps a lot, I say Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2007)

JiCi said:
			
		

> Well, psi-like abilities are Charisma-based, so a high charisma helps a lot, I say Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 18




Sounds good.   Updated in Homebrews.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All known psionic cats (called Magenta’s Cats) are reputed to be of the same deepest black color as the original. About two thirds of these cats are female. All have exceptional night vision, allowing them to see well in anything but absolute darkness, and very sensitive hearing.   These senses make the cats impossible to surprise.  The silence with which they move and their dark color allows them to surprise opponents on a 1-5 in shadowed areas and at night.




Racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks?  Improved Hide bonus in areas of darkness or shadowy illumination?  Improved Initiative?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Magenta’s Cats are intelligent in the extreme, and can apparently communicate with all feline creatures by means of a sort of limited empathy/telepathy. They may speak up to three languages besides the feline tongue and the language of neutral alignment.  It is 90% likely that at least one of these other three languages will be the common tongue, and 60% likely that another will be elven.




Speak Common, Elven, and one other language?

How's this?

Speak with Felines (Su):  A Magenta's cat can communicate with any feline creature, as if using a speak with animals spell.   This ability cannot be dispelled.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Magenta’s Cats are aloof and somewhat conceited; they all seem to feel they are vastly superior to any other thinking creature, although they are not given to “broadcasting” their powers. It is likely that any Magenta’s Cat aware it is being watched will act like a normal cat, not revealing its true nature until it chooses to or is forced to.




Bonus on Disguise checks to resemble a standard housecat?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Though these creatures usually travel alone, it is possible to run into a small group of them, all adults, who have gathered to exchange information, feed, or mate. Singly or in groups, these cats are only known to inhabit towns and cities.  Litters have 3-5 kittens, with only a 10% chance of each offspring having the special powers of the psionic parent(s).  The chance is the same whether one or both parents are psionic.




Environment:  Any urban?

Organization:  Solitary, family (1 Magenta's cat plus another cat or Magenta's cat and 3-5 noncombatant young), or pack (3-6)?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A magic-user of true neutral or partneutral alignment who has psionics may receive a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar if  the spell Find Familiar is cast successfully and a black cat is indicated as the type of familiar received. The base chance is 5%, plus an additional 1% per level of experience of the magic-user over the first. For a magic-user of true neutral alignment, this chance of success is unmodified; however, subtract 2% from the figure arrived at if the magicuser is neutral good, neutral evil, lawful neutral or chaotic neutral. Magic-users of other alignments will not be able to find a Magenta’s Cat for a familiar even if they are psionic.




How's this?

A Magenta’s cat can be acquired as a familiar by a 7th(?)-level arcane spellcaster with the Improved Familiar feat of any nonlawful or nonchaotic alignment. See page 200 of the DMG for more information.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> In addition to the normal powers of a black cat familiar, the Magenta’s Cat makes the magic-user impossible to surprise and can add its psionic strength points to its master’s in multiple psionic operations. The magic-user may likewise add his or her points to the cat’s to extend its powers, but the magic-user will not gain the cat’s psionic disciplines as his or her own, or vice versa. If the Magenta’s Cat familiar is killed, the magic-user immediately loses twice as many hit points as the cat had, permanently, and also loses all of his or her psionic powers forever. Like all other familiars, the Magenta’s Cat gets a saving throw vs. magic when the Find Familiar spell is cast.




Perhaps an ability that allows master and familiar to share some psionic power points?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> There is a 5% chance that a Magenta’s Cat will be acting as a familiar if encountered normally. If so, it will be linked to a Wizard of 11th to 18th level (d8 + 10, to generate level randomly) who will react with all powers possible if his or her familiar is threatened. There is a fair chance the cat will be wearing a jeweled (and possibly enchanted) collar of considerable value, as determined by the Dungeon Master.




Treasure:  None (standard goods in the form of a bejeweled collar if acting as a familiar)?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2007)

All that's looking good.  This seems like a complicated conversion!


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

It's not so bad.    

Any other opinions on the last post?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Any thoughts on this?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps an ability that allows master and familiar to share some psionic power points?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Ahh, psionics...you remain the red-headed stepchild of D&D.   

Anyone have any thoughts on this fella, or have psionics scared you off?


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

I dabbled in psionics in 2nd Edition, but haven't touched them in 3rd Edition at all.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on this?
> Perhaps an ability that allows master and familiar to share some psionic power points?




Considering the original description, I think this would be a good idea.
Could simply call it "Shared Power".  I don't know how "power points" work (are they like mana?), so I'm at a loss for an actual power description.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks? Improved Hide bonus in areas of darkness or shadowy illumination? Improved Initiative?



+2 racial to Spot and Listen
+4 to Hide in shadowy illumination, +8 in full darkness
I'd say Improved Init and/or Uncanny Dodge


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## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> or have psionics scared you off?



I already surrendered in the other thread - which begs the question why am I looking at this thread 

Regards
Mortis


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I already surrendered in the other thread - which begs the question why am I looking at this thread
> 
> Regards
> Mortis



Because curiosity consumes us?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Considering the original description, I think this would be a good idea.
> Could simply call it "Shared Power".  I don't know how "power points" work (are they like mana?), so I'm at a loss for an actual power description.




Yeah, they are like mana.  Unfortunately, in 3.5, monsters with psi-like abilities don't use power points, so they don't actually have any to share with their masters.  Perhaps they could sacrfice a daily use of one of their spell-like abilities (or use of their single at will ability for 24 hours) to grant their master a number of power points equivalent to the power's level?  The master could then sacrifice a number of equivalent power points to grant the cat another daily use of one of its 1/day powers.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> +2 racial to Spot and Listen
> +4 to Hide in shadowy illumination, +8 in full darkness
> I'd say Improved Init and/or Uncanny Dodge




Sounds good.  I'll stick with the standard cat's +4 bonus on Listen and Spot.


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps they could sacrfice a daily use of one of their spell-like abilities (or use of their single at will ability for 24 hours) to grant their master a number of power points equivalent to the power's level?  The master could then sacrifice a number of equivalent power points to grant the cat another daily use of one of its 1/day powers.




That's a nice idea.


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> That's a nice idea.



I agree.  If the creature doesn't use power points, it'd be hard to implement this ability otherwise.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

How does this look?

Power Pool (Su):  A Magenta's cat serving as a familiar can sacrfice a daily use of one of its per day psi-like abilities to grant its master a number of power points equivalent to the power's level.   It may also sacrifice its at will body equilibrium ability, but doing so prevents it from using this ability for 24 hours.  The cat's master can sacrifice some of his or her own power points to grant the Magenta's cat another use of one of its psi-like abilities.  Doing so requires a number of power points equivalent to the number of power points normally needed to manifest the power.  

For example, the Magenta's cat can sacrifice its daily use of cloud mind (a 2nd-level power) to grant its master 3 power points.   Alternatively, its master can sacrifice 3 power points to grant the Magenta's cat another daily use of cloud mind, or 5 points to grant another use of body adjustment.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Seems pretty reasonable, though I'm not a psionics expert.  Is it reasonable for the power point transfer not to be 1-to-1?  Should maybe the cat's sacrifice of cloud mind grant 3 power points to the master?


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Seems pretty reasonable, though I'm not a psionics expert.  Is it reasonable for the power point transfer not to be 1-to-1?  Should maybe the cat's sacrifice of cloud mind grant 3 power points to the master?




That was the intent.  Does it not read that way?


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Umm, I'm now confused.   In the example, each direction grants 3 power points, but the text ability description says that the cat sacrificing a power grants the master a number of points equal to the power's level.  So cloud mind would give the master 2 points by that rule.  I'd rather it give 3, though.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Umm, I'm now confused.   In the example, each direction grants 3 power points, but the text ability description says that the cat sacrificing a power grants the master a number of points equal to the power's level.  So cloud mind would give the master 2 points by that rule.  I'd rather it give 3, though.




I'm confused too.    

Essentially, cat should be able to give up a use of cloud mind to grant master 3 points, while master could give up 3 points to give cat another use of cloud mind.  

I'm probably too close to this, so I'm not seeing the confusion...anyone wanna rewrite?


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Power Pool (Su): A Magenta's cat serving as a familiar can sacrfice a daily use of one of its per day psi-like abilities to grant its master a number of power points equivalent to the number of points normally needed to manifest this power. It may also sacrifice its at will body equilibrium ability, but doing so prevents it from using this ability for 24 hours. The cat's master can sacrifice some of his or her own power points to grant the Magenta's cat another use of one of its psi-like abilities. Doing so requires a number of power points equivalent to the number of power points normally needed to manifest the power.

How's that?


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

OK, I finally see the difference.  Thanks!    

Does my example still work OK?


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, I finally see the difference.  Thanks!
> 
> Does my example still work OK?




I think so.


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## dhaga (Nov 8, 2007)

freyar's writeup looks fine, but the example still shows 3 power points gained for a 2nd-level power, which is where I think the confusion arose.  And still arises.

A 2nd-level power would grant 2 points, a 3rd-level power would grant 3 points, etc...correct?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> freyar's writeup looks fine, but the example still shows 3 power points gained for a 2nd-level power, which is where I think the confusion arose.  And still arises.




That was my intention...

See the table here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints

For example, see the bolded bits...

Cloud Mind 
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: *Psion/wilder 2*
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
*Power Points: 3 * 

Does that help?


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## dhaga (Nov 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> See the table here:
> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints




Aha.  That helps a lot.  Thanks 
And yes, it makes sense now


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Skills: 16

How about...
Concentration 4, Knowledge (psionics) 4, Move Silently 4, Psicraft 4

Challenge Rating: 1?

Advancement: None?


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## dhaga (Nov 12, 2007)

All sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


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## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

Statblock looks good.


> A Magenta’s cat will generally try to escape combat, using *their* psi-like abilities to assist its escape.



Can probably get rid of "their".

Looks done to me.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Here's one we worked on awhile back and never finished...

BRAIN CORAL
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 10/5 (exoskeleton)
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Incidental
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, psionic powers
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Psionic powers
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT. Neutral
SIZE: S (2')
PSIONIC ABILITY: 60-100
Attack/Defense Modes: See below
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/120 + 3/hp
Brain coral is an evolutionary offshoot of a type of stony coral. It has an exoskeleton that is convoluted and ridged so that it resembles a human brain. Like its simpler cousin, this more advanced type of brain coral is restricted to the warm waters of the tidal zone, but may be found at depths of 1,000' +. Usually, it is found with the growth of a coral reef or atoll where feeding is easier.

The brain coral consists of the animal polyp which has settled and, over the years, built up an exoskeleton of pure calcium carbonate around it for protection. The exoskeleton is AC 5 and takes damage equal to the total hit points of the polyp before fracturing enough to allow the attacker to actually get at the AC 10 polyp. Nematocyts (stinging cells) throughout the skeleton inject a weak neurotoxin into victims which can paralyze for 1-10 rounds (save vs. poison at +4).

The brain coral has a psionic strength of 30-50 points (60-100 psionic ability) with attack/defense modes randomly determined as for player characters. It has 2-5 minor disciplines and a 25% chance of having a major discipline. The minor disciplines are among the following: animal telepathy, cell adjustment (as fighter), domination, ESP, invisibility, and clairvoyance. The major discipline is telekinesis, which is always accompanied by clairvoyance as a minor discipline. All powers are at the ninth level of mastery.

If encountered, a brain coral may attempt to read its visitors' minds if the coral has ESP If attacked and if it possesses telekinesis, the brain coral uses its power either to move attackers away from the area or to batter one attacker with underwater debris for 2-5 hp damage/ round.

Brain coral skeletons are yellow, brown, or olive in color. If removed from the water, the skeleton turns bone white.

Dragon Magazine #116, pages 38-39


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Here's as far as we got...

*Brain Coral*
Small Magical Beast (Aquatic, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 3d10+6 (22 hp)
Initiative: -5
Speed: 0 ft. 
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, -5 Dex, +9 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Sting +X melee (paralysis)
Full Attack: Sting +X melee (paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Paralysis, psionics
Special Qualities: Blindsense 30 ft., low-light vision, psionics
Saves: Fort +5, Ref -2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 8-10, Dex 1, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Skills: 30
Feats: Expanded Knowledge (Clairvoyant Sense), 1 more
Environment: Any aquatic 
Organization: Solitary 
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: --

_Description_. 

Brain coral is an evolutionary offshoot of a type of stony coral. It has an exoskeleton that is convoluted and ridged so that it resembles a human brain. Like its simpler cousin, this more advanced type of brain coral is restricted to the warm waters of the tidal zone, but may be found at depths of 1,000' +. Usually, it is found with the growth of a coral reef or atoll where feeding is easier.

The brain coral consists of the animal polyp which has settled and, over the years, built up an exoskeleton of pure calcium carbonate around it for protection. The exoskeleton is AC 5 and takes damage equal to the total hit points of the polyp before fracturing enough to allow the attacker to actually get at the AC 10 polyp. Nematocyts (stinging cells) throughout the skeleton inject a weak neurotoxin into victims which can paralyze for 1d10 rounds.

If encountered, a brain coral may attempt to read its visitors' minds if the coral has ESP.

On the rare occasions where there may be more than one patch of brain coral in an area, by using their _metaconcert_ power, they can form deadly patches of coral communities stretching many distances over an aquatic domain.

Brain coral skeletons are yellow, brown, or olive in color. If removed from the water, the skeleton turns bone white.

An average brain coral is about X feet long. 

Brain coral does not speak.

Combat

If attacked, the brain coral uses its telekinetic powers either to move attackers away from the area or to batter one attacker with underwater debris.

*Psionic Powers:* Brain coral manifests powers as a psion (telepath) of 9th level. The save DCs are Intelligence-based.

_Typical Psion Powers Known_ (power points 72, save DC 10 + power level): 1st - Empathy*, Mindlink*, Mind Thrust (DC 11*), Missive*, Psionic Charm (DC 11*); 2nd - Clairvoyant Sense, Ego Whip (DC 12*), Read Thoughts (DC 12), Thought Shield*; 3rd - Body Adjustment*, False Sensory Input (DC 13*), Telekinetic Force (DC 13*), Telekinetic Thrust (DC 13*); 4th - Correspond, Psionic Dominate (DC 14*), Telekinetic Maneuver*, Thieving Mindlink (DC 14*); 5th - Metaconcert*, Mind Probe (DC 15).
*Power can be augmented.

The brain coral first appeared in Dragon Magazine #116, p. 38.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Here are a few things we were mulling over...



			
				Urklore said:
			
		

> Well seeing it is blind so to speak and uses blindsight would it even have skills in spot or search? Since it does not move it would have not hide, move silently, swim, or other move-based skills. I would have to say perhaps skills in Listen (Wis), Autohypnosis (Wis), and Concentration (Con).
> 
> Seeing that it charms and dominates people alot, would skill ranks in Diplomacy be too far fetched?
> 
> ...






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Although it is blind, it could have ranks in Search or Spot, since it can perform them using nonvisual cues. Since it doesn't actually communicate with others, I'd probably advise against Diplomacy.


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Str 8 sounds fitting, as it doesn't exert much physical force.  The Str would really just be used for its sting attack.

Not so sure on Search, but ranks in Spot and Listen would be important, I think.

Telekinetic Force and Telekinetic Thrust are definites for powers.
Edit: and now I see you already have the powers figured out.  Very good, then   

Fort DC 13 to avoid paralysis from the sting.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

> The brain coral consists of the animal polyp which has settled and, over the years, built up an exoskeleton of pure calcium carbonate around it for protection. The exoskeleton is AC 5 and takes damage equal to the total hit points of the polyp before fracturing enough to allow the attacker to actually get at the AC 10 polyp.




How's this?

Exoskeleton (Ex):  The brain coral's exoskeleton has hit points equal to the brain coral's total maximum hit points.  All damage dealt to the brain coral first damages the exoskeleton.  Once the exoskeleton is reduced to 0 hp, it is destroyed.  Any subsequent attacks directly damage the brain coral, and its natural armor bonus is lost, reducing its AC to 6.  A brain coral may use its body adjustment ability to repair its exoskeleton.   If its exoskeleton is destroyed, the brain coral can regrow it at a rate of +1 natural armor per year.

CR ?

Advancement ?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2007)

Exoskeleton looks good.

Haven't paid enough attention to guess at CR, though probably around 2 based on poison DC, AC, etc.

I'd do 4-6HD (Small), 7-9 HD (Medium), 10-12 HD (Large).  Anything bigger should probably be a conglomeration of smaller brain corals.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Since it can manifest as a 9th-level psion, it should probably be at least CR 4.

I like that advancement.

Updated Homebrews.  This fella done?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2007)

I think it's done!


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

*Braintree*

A repulsive, slime-covered, greyish-pink tree trunk stretches from the floor to the ceiling.  Several limbs branch off from the main trunk, each ending in convoluted masses of dripping tissue that look similar to large brains.

This weird plant-animal hybrid produces nourishment for the neothelids.  The braintree has no effective melee attack bu it psionically aware and defends itself if attacked.  Each of the seven brains hanging from the tree can attack psionically, but each draws PSPs from a common pool.

The brains hang on flesh stalks, and severing a brain from its stalk or attacking a brain directly requires a successful called shot (-4 penalty to hit).  The brains and their stalks have AC 8 and can withstand 6 points of damage.  This damage does not count against the creature's main hit point total.  The braintree has no treasure.

Braintree:  AC 8; MV 0; HD 12; hp 65; THAC0 nil; #At 6; Dmg nil; SA/SD psionics; MR 45%; SZ L; ML 20; Int average (9); AL N; XP 2,000; New monster.

Psionics Summary: #AT 7; MTHAC0 10; MAC 5; Lv 6; PSPs 450; Psionic attacks--EW, II, MB; Psionic Defenses--All; Psionic Disciplines--control body, body equilbrium, domination, awe, ESP.

From Dungeon #81 (2000)


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

Aberration?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

I'd say so!


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Ability scores of other "trees"...

Night Twist (L):  Str 39, Dex 6, Con 29, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 21
Bloodthorn (L): Str 20, Dex 17, Con 19, Int --, Wis 12, Cha 2
Ironmaw (H):  Str 30, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 14
Octopus Tree (H): Str 30, Dex 3, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15
Red Sundew (H): Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Death's Head Tree (H):  Str 20, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 
Bonetree (H): Str 10, Dex 10, Con 20, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2

We could go either L or H, as it was listed as "L", but "extended to the ceiling".

We know that the braintree has Int 9.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Let's go H.  From the description, I'd go with very low strength, maybe 1-4.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

How about Huge and the following scores:

Str 7, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 16?

That still puts the Str below other treelike creatures, but it is still a tree after all.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Fair enough.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



> Each of the seven brains hanging from the tree can attack psionically, but each draws PSPs from a common pool.
> 
> The brains hang on flesh stalks, and severing a brain from its stalk or attacking a brain directly requires a successful called shot (-4 penalty to hit). The brains and their stalks have AC 8 and can withstand 6 points of damage. This damage does not count against the creature's main hit point total. The braintree has no treasure.
> 
> Psionics Summary: #AT 7; MTHAC0 10; MAC 5; Lv 6; PSPs 450; Psionic attacks--EW, II, MB; Psionic Defenses--All; Psionic Disciplines--control body, body equilbrium, domination, awe, ESP.




We could use the brain collector for inspiration...

Spells: A brain collector casts spells as a 6th-level sorcerer. A brain collector can store additonal spells known in its collected brains, increasing the total number of spells it knows and can cast. If it absorbs a brain, it loses one of its known spells. When it collects a new brain to replace an absorbed brain, it may select a new spell to replace the spell lost. A brain collector may know any number of spells in this manner, although the number of spells known of any particular level cannot equal or exceed the number of spells known of a lower level. The stat block above summarizes a brain collector with a full complement of 12 brains.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Hehe, I should go back and read the brain collector again!  That's just such a fun monster!

In any case, I think this is a good idea.  Do we want to write a sorcerer version, or just psionics?

The alternative is maybe to allow one manifestation per round per brain remaining, with a common set of powers known.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hehe, I should go back and read the brain collector again!  That's just such a fun monster!




It sure is.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> In any case, I think this is a good idea.  Do we want to write a sorcerer version, or just psionics?




We might as well so it blends in better with the other mind flayer creatures.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> The alternative is maybe to allow one manifestation per round per brain remaining, with a common set of powers known.




That could work.

Psionics: A braintree manifests powers as a 7th-level psion. A braintree knows one power for each brain it possesses.  If it loses a brain, randomly determine the power lost.  

Hmmm...since its Int is only 9, it cant manifest even 0-level powers.  I see several options:

1.)  Raise the Int.
2.)  Manifest as a psychic warrior, which uses Wisdom as the relevant abilty modifier.  (As it currently stands, its 15 Wis would allow it to manifest 5th-level powers, which is just what we need).
3.)  Use psi-like abilities instead of powers, and have each brain allow a single spell-like ability.

I think I prefer option #2.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Psionics: A braintree manifests powers as a 7th-level psion. A braintree knows one power for each brain it possesses.  If it loses a brain, randomly determine the power lost.
> 
> Hmmm...since its Int is only 9, it cant manifest even 0-level powers.  I see several options:
> 
> ...




I'd go with the psychic warrior option, too.  Nice to have something that's not a psion for once!

For the arcane version:

Psionics (Sp): A braintree has one spell-like ability for each brain it possesses, of which it can use a total of 10x/day.  These are chosen from the 1st through 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell lists.  If the braintree uses a brain, randomly determine the spell-like ability lost.

Is that reasonable?  I feel like it needs work.

I just remembered that Braintree is a stop on the Boston T!  No wonder this sounds so familiar!


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd go with the psychic warrior option, too.  Nice to have something that's not a psion for once!




Indeed!



> Psionics Summary: #AT 7; MTHAC0 10; MAC 5; Lv 6; PSPs 450; Psionic attacks--EW, II, MB; Psionic Defenses--All; Psionic Disciplines--control body, body equilbrium, domination, awe, ESP.




Note that many of these powers are not on the psychic warrior list or are beyond its current manifester level.   The Expanded Knowledge can allow it to take powers from other class lists, so we could dedicate any number of its five feats to obtain the desired powers.  I would say psionic blast at a minimum (a 3rd-level power) and maybe id insinuation (2nd-level) and read thoughts (2nd-level).  Here's a suggested list (without the Expanded Knowledge suggestions)...

Psionics: A braintree manifests powers as a 7th-level psychic warrior. A braintree knows one power for each brain it possesses. If it loses a brain, randomly determine the power lost. 

Typical powers known:
1st--dissipating touch, empty mind, inertial armor
2nd--body adjustment, dissolving touch, thought shield
3rd--mental barrier



Let' hold off on the arcane version for now.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I just remembered that Braintree is a stop on the Boston T!  No wonder this sounds so familiar!




Don't stop there!


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

So I guess the question is whether we want to devote any feats to powers.  Are there any other feats that this should really have?  I'm not terribly familiar with the psionic feats, but I'd imagine some of the metapsionic ones would be useful.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Besides the 3 Expaned Knowledge feats I recommended earlier, Overchannel is nice (take 1d8 points of damage to increase your effective manifester level by one), especially when combined with Talented (When manifesting a power of 3rd level or lower, you do not take damage from overchanneling).  Alternatively, Psionic Endowment (expend your psionic focus and add 1 to the save DC of a power you manifest) is nice.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Besides the 3 Expaned Knowledge feats I recommended earlier, Overchannel is nice (take 1d8 points of damage to increase your effective manifester level by one), especially when combined with Talented (When manifesting a power of 3rd level or lower, you do not take damage from overchanneling).




Let's go with those 5.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Skills:  15

Put all ranks in Concentration?

16 feet tall?

Organization: Solitary or stand (2-6)?

Challenge Rating: 7?

Treasure: None?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

That all sounds about right to me.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Updated.   Another one done?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Think so!  Now I just need a good excuse to get into an illithid enclave in the underdark.  Well, if it feeds neothelids, maybe just near an illithid enclave...


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Shroomy reminded me of languages in the other thread.   Should these things at least understand Undercommon?   Maybe communicate telepathically?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, let's let them communicate telepathically with creatures that understand Undercommon.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Telepathy is usually "any creature that has a language".  How about short-range telepathy (60 feet?) and "understands Undercommon but cannot speak"?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Sure.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

This time, I think so.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*Star Leviathan*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon on Astral Plane; unknown elsewhere
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVE: 12" to 18" (see below)
HIT DICE: 24
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 tail slap
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Telekinesis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Molecular shock
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very to genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: L (70'-100' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 220-280
Attack/Defense Modes: All / all
LEVEL/X. P. VALUE: X/l3600 + 35/hp

(Note: See DRAGON® Magazine #67 for more information on the Astral Plane and the nature of movement and combat in that environment.)

Now and then come reports from astral travelers of what appear to be great whalelike beings "swimming" through astral space. These creatures, called star leviathans for the sparkling appearance of their hides, do not appear to be evil or cruel, and some actually seem friendly to travelers who do not try to attack them.

A star leviathan resembles a blue whale except that it has a very dark blue, almost black, color; there are tiny silver and gold flecks shot through their skins that produce an appearance like the gemstone lapis lazuli.  When seen, star leviathans each trail a silver cord, so they are obviously using a form of astral projection to travel through the Astral Plane; no one knows which Prime Material Plane they come from, and they have never revealed their home to anyone even under duress or charm. They are apparently a race of psionic whales, normally ocean-dwelling but capable of psionic astral projection which they apparently use for their amusement and curiosity.  They can also use one other psionic power while simultaneously using astral projection in astral space. Star leviathans move at a rate in tens of yards per round equal to their intelligence score, as do all astral beings.

Because of their great size, star leviathans can be seen from a great distance (500-5000 yards); they, on the other hand, will not be aware of man-sized or smaller creatures until they are much closer. Evading them is not difficult if one is not surprised. Upon discovering other living creatures in astral space, star leviathans will use telepathy in order to communicate with them. They will sometimes follow adventurers or other astral travelers for a long time, and will assist them so long as the travelers are friendly and do not mind "talking."

In addition to telepathy and astral projection, star leviathans have the psionic discipline of telekinesis and use it at the 24th level of mastery, able to move masses of up to 9000 gp weight. They are not accustomed to using telekinesis to hurl missiles at opponents, and will not do so even if shown how to (they do not have the binocular, three-dimensional vision required for this because of the placement of their eyes).  They do, however, know how to catch objects in their telekinetic grip at ranges out to 270 yards, and may pull them in  closer for inspection. If attacked, they have been known to catch opponents with telekinesis and hold them while another leviathan moves over and smashes them with its tail for 10-40 points of damage. More than one opponent, so long as their total mass does not exceed 900 lbs., can be caught by a single star leviathan's telekinesis. Though they have mouths, star leviathans are not toothed whales (probably eating planktonlike creatures on their home world) and do not bite in combat.

Star leviathans have one special defensive ability, but will use it only if they are surrounded
and hard pressed in close combat, and low on hit points. In one round they can charge themselves with a form of molecular manipulation (costing 50 psionic strength points) which causes their bodies to glow brightly. Each charge will last for four rounds, fading out at the end of that time. During those four rounds, any non-living object (missile, weapon, or whatever) hitting the star leviathan must make a saving throw vs. magical fire, with  appropriate bonuses for magical enchantments (if any are possessed while in astral space) or be disintegrated without damaging the creature.  Living creatures who directly touch a star leviathan's energy field or are holding onto something that is touching a leviathan's field are also affected, and must save vs. spells or take 4-16 points damage (half if the save is made). All items on that person must also save vs. magical fire or be disintegrated.  If attackers move away when it starts to glow, it will strike at one with its tail to deliver physical damage and the molecular shock charge at the same time. It takes one full round to charge the molecular shock field, during which time the star leviathan cannot attack or move; any physical damage it sustains during that round will not stop production of the field, however, which goes into effect at the start of the next round.

If a star leviathan runs out of psionic ability points at any time while on the Astral Plane, it will disappear (its spirit returns to its home plane). The DM will need to keep careful track of a leviathan's psionic ability points, remcrnbering to subtract 10 points from the initially generated score for the astral projection power which is continuously maintained; those 10 points cannot be recovered by resting until the leviathan leaves the Astral Plane.

Star leviathans have what is best described as a "godlike" personality. They generally treat other travelers as interesting but minor companions, and are experienced and knowledgeable about the astral environment.  They are playful, and it is difficult to convince them to treat any matter seriously; they seem amused even when confronting powerful evil opponents. Living in astral space for such prolonged periods has altered their perception of time, and they treat all events as either in the distant, remote past (no mattcr how long ago it was), or in the immediate present Evil creatures will avoid them whenever possible, and most good and neutral creatures will leave them alone as well unless there is a need for cooperation, such as teaming up against a massed attack of powerful opponents. Leviathans will allow small beings to "hitch rides" by hanging onto their tails or broad flippers, and ask in return only telepathic conversation.  They do not speak any vocal language.  

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar)?

Stats for similar creatures:
Baleen Whale: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Cachalot Whale: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Elsewhale: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 16

Very to Genius equates to 11-18.

So...

Str 35, Dex 13, Con 22-24, Int 11-18, Wis 14+, Cha 16+


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## RavinRay (Feb 16, 2008)

I was thinking magical beast (extraplanar) too.

This would make a perfect opponent to the astral dreadnought (ah, the classic cover of the original _Manual of the Planes_…) And since you mentioned the elsewhale, it's vaguely similar to it thematically, a plane-travelling cetacean. Other whales include the flying whale in _Arms and Equipment Guide_ and the leviathan from _Monster Manual II_.

I'd go for the high-end of Int, because if we interpret the "psionic discipline of telekinesis at 24th level of mastery" to mean it's an innate 24th-level kineticist it needs a minimum Int score of 19 to manifest 9th-level powers. Unless we interpret that differently, to mean that the leviathan has only these three telekinesis powers _(telekinetic force, telekinetic maneuver, telekinetic thrusy)_.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I'd go for the high-end of Int, because if we interpret the "psionic discipline of telekinesis at 24th level of mastery" to mean it's an innate 24th-level kineticist it needs a minimum Int score of 19 to manifest 9th-level powers. Unless we interpret that differently, to mean that the leviathan has only these three telekinesis powers _(telekinetic force, telekinetic maneuver, telekinetic thrusy)_.




Let's go with the innate 24th-level kineticist, since these things are psionically strong.

In that case, how about...

Str 35, Dex 13, Con 23, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 18


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using those ability scores and the AC of the elsewhale.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

Not to quibble, but, since these originate on the prime material, shouldn't we drop the (extraplanar) and just have them acquire that subtype when encountered on the astral?

Otherwise, I like those ability scores.  AC looks a bit low for the likely CR of these, though.  Should we increase the natural armor, or just make sure they have some psionic power to augment AC?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Not to quibble, but, since these originate on the prime material, shouldn't we drop the (extraplanar) and just have them acquire that subtype when encountered on the astral?




Probably not, since they are found almost solely on the Astral Plane now.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Otherwise, I like those ability scores.  AC looks a bit low for the likely CR of these, though.  Should we increase the natural armor, or just make sure they have some psionic power to augment AC?




I just copied from the similarly-sized, similarly-themed elsewhales.  A true conversion would give them AC 10!

I think psionic powers to boost their AC would be good idea, though.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

> When seen, star leviathans each trail a silver cord, so they are obviously using a form of astral projection to travel through the Astral Plane; no one knows which Prime Material Plane they come from, and they have never revealed their home to anyone even under duress or charm. They are apparently a race of psionic whales, normally ocean-dwelling but capable of psionic astral projection which they apparently use for their amusement and curiosity.



Ah, I thought they were just astral projecting to the Astral Plane, but it's all fine.

Well, I'm mostly not going to be very helpful with choosing powers, but we definitely want telekinetic ones.   Is there one to catch ranged attacks or opponents?


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## RavinRay (Feb 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think psionic powers to boost their AC would be good idea, though.



_Inertial armor's_  a perfect choice; plus it's a psychokinetic power.


			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Well, I'm mostly not going to be very helpful with choosing powers, but we definitely want telekinetic ones.  Is there one to catch ranged attacks or opponents?



Based on their personality they don't seem to like the various psychokinetic energy powers that are destructive. However, the three aforementioned powers (_telekinetic force, telekinetic maneuver, telekinetic thrust_) which combined are the psionic equivalant of the arcane _telekinesis_, would serve the purpose you mentioned, though the leviathan won't use _thrust_ to hurl objects at opponents.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

That all sounds good.  Any other suggested powers for these to know?  Otherwise, I guess we should think about the "charging" ability.


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## RavinRay (Feb 26, 2008)

On that disintegrate effect… there's a _psionic disintegrate_ power which is equivalent to the arcane spell, although both are rays. We can adapt _Energy Emanation_ from _Complete Psionic_; the description is "Deal 1D6 points of chosen energy damage to surrounding creatures." Or we can use the stats of the various "field" psionic powers as a base.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

This thing doesn't deal nearly as much damage as disintegrate, though we could always boost it.   Also, I don't know how much 50 "psionic strength points" is worth in terms of power points, so I don't have a great feeling about how strong this should be.  However, from the flavor, it makes a lot of sense for this to be a mostly defensive effect.  OTOH, 4-16 hp damage is mighty low for the likely CR.  Here's a try:

Psionic Charge (Su or Ps?): By expending X power points, a star leviathan can create a psionic charge on its body for four rounds (after which the charge dissipates).  This psionic field grants the star leviathan DR 20/- (or immunity to all weapon damage?).  In addition, all creatures or objects that come in contact with the star leviathan while it is charged are affected as if by the psionic disintegrate power. Unattended nonmagical objects, including ranged weapons, do not receive a save against this power.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

Getting the powers started...

It gets 36 powers known.

Psionic Powers: A star leviathan manifests powers as a psion (kineticist) of 24th level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 383, save DC 14 + power level): 1st—control body, inertial armor; 2nd—x; 3rd—telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust; 4th—inertial barrier, telekinetic maneuver; 5th—x; 6th—dispelling buffer; 7th—reddopsi; 8th—psionic telekinetic sphere; 9th—x.

*Power can be augmented.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Psionic Charge (Su or Ps?): By expending X power points, a star leviathan can create a psionic charge on its body for four rounds (after which the charge dissipates).  This psionic field grants the star leviathan DR 20/- (or immunity to all weapon damage?).  In addition, all creatures or objects that come in contact with the star leviathan while it is charged are affected as if by the psionic disintegrate power. Unattended nonmagical objects, including ranged weapons, do not receive a save against this power.




This is a good start.  I think likening it to psionic disintegrate is a good idea.  We'll need to decide on the manifester level, which will determine the total damage.  Manifester level 20th?  That would yield 40d6 damage (but still 5d6 on a successful save).

Also of note...



> It takes one full round to charge the molecular shock field, during which time the star leviathan cannot attack or move; any physical damage it sustains during that round will not stop production of the field, however, which goes into effect at the start of the next round.




It sounds like it should take a full-round action to activate.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Oooh, I'd forgotten about these.   Yes, the psionic charge should take a full round action.  Wait, how does ML 20 give 40d6 damage?  I thought it was 22d6, but the only manifester level I see in the power description is in the range.

Thoughts on the power points and DR vs immunity to damage?


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## RavinRay (Mar 11, 2008)

Although it's not officially an epic creature, it already has epic-level abilities, so DR should be formidable. Astral dragons have DR n/holy or unholy (coz they're neutral), and I'll check on the astral dreadnought. Maybe DR 20/silver? I think psionic charge should be (Ps), with at least 17 power points needed (17 points being the minimum for a 9th-level power).


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Oooh, I'd forgotten about these.   Yes, the psionic charge should take a full round action.  Wait, how does ML 20 give 40d6 damage?  I thought it was 22d6, but the only manifester level I see in the power description is in the range.




Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the damage this power deals to a subject that fails its saving throw increases by 2d6 points. Augmenting this power does not change the amount of damage the target takes if it succeeds on its saving throw. 

Since the power starts at 22d6, and a creature with psi-like abilities is assumed to spend a number of power points equal to its manifester level (in this case, 20), that's 9 power points more than the 11 normally required by the power, yielding an additional 18d6 damage.    


I agree with everything RavinRay suggested.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2008)

> Since the power starts at 22d6, and a creature with psi-like abilities is *assumed to spend a number of power points equal to its manifester level* (in this case, 20), that's 9 power points more than the 11 normally required by the power, yielding an additional 18d6 damage.




That's the part I was missing.   I also agree with RavinRay.  Since we're going to call psionic charge a 9th level power, let's require 20 power points but only let this deal 28d6 (only 3 extra power points vs those needed for a 9th level power).  I'm still not entirely comfortable with that amount of damage for a defensive ability, though.  Maybe we could make it a half-strength disintegrate?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Let's look at it again...



> Star leviathans have one special defensive ability, but will use it only if they are surrounded and hard pressed in close combat, and low on hit points. In one round they can charge themselves with a form of molecular manipulation (costing 50 psionic strength points) which causes their bodies to glow brightly. Each charge will last for four rounds, fading out at the end of that time. During those four rounds, any non-living object (missile, weapon, or whatever) hitting the star leviathan must make a saving throw vs. magical fire, with appropriate bonuses for magical enchantments (if any are possessed while in astral space) or be disintegrated without damaging the creature. *Living creatures who directly touch a star leviathan's energy field or are holding onto something that is touching a leviathan's field are also affected, and must save vs. spells or take 4-16 points damage (half if the save is made).* _All items on that person must also save vs. magical fire or be disintegrated._ If attackers move away when it starts to glow, it will strike at one with its tail to deliver physical damage and the molecular shock charge at the same time. It takes one full round to charge the molecular shock field, during which time the star leviathan cannot attack or move; any physical damage it sustains during that round will not stop production of the field, however, which goes into effect at the start of the next round.




Look at the bold and italicized bits.  We could retain the usual disintegrate damage, but limit it to non-living matter, and just have living creatures take the usual 5d6 damage (as if a successful save), but in this case allow save for half that?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

How about we just say that living creatures automatically make their save and take 5d6 points of damage?  This needs to do something to be effective, after all.  However, attended and magic items still need to save.  Does that sound fair?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

So how's this?

Molecular Shock (Ps): By expending 20 power points, a star leviathan can create a psionic charge on its body for four rounds (after which the charge dissipates). This psionic field grants the star leviathan DR 20/-. In addition, all creatures or objects that come in contact with the star leviathan while it is charged are affected as if by the psionic disintegrate power (manifester level 20th), with the following exceptions. Objects take 28d6 points of damage (or 5d6 points of damage with a successful DC 23 Fortitude save).  Unattended nonmagical objects, including ranged weapons, do not receive a save against this power.  Living creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws, taking just 5d6 points of damage.   This is the equivlent of a 9th-level power.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

That I like!  That should be very effective defensively but not too powerful offensively.  Let's add back in the part that it takes a full round action.  Maybe, "By expending 20 power points as a full-round action..."


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Since it gets so many powers known, why not add all the ones on the kineticist list?  Also, control body is 4th level.  That would add 
1- control object, 2- control air*, energy missile*, 3 - energy cone*, 4- control body*, energy ball*, 5  - energy current*, fiery discorporation*, 6- null psionics field, 7 - x, 8 - x, 9 - tornado blast*

That brings us up to 18 powers.  Does this seem reasonable, or are some of these too offensively oriented?  Also, do we want to "build up" the powers, lower level first, as if we were advancing a character?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

You know, that is an excellent question.  I assume it would need to somewhat follow the psion level progression for powers known.  In other words, I don't think it could know more than 6 9th-level powers, and would have to know at least 5 1st-level powers, based on the psion chart.   

Anyone know if there is more clear-cut rules for this somewhere?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I'd assume that this is something like choosing feats for a monster -- do you go through one HD at a time adding the feats it qualifies for, or do you just take its final stats and add the appropriate number of feats that it qualifies for at the end?


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## RavinRay (Mar 15, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> You know, that is an excellent question.  I assume it would need to somewhat follow the psion level progression for powers known.  In other words, I don't think it could know more than 6 9th-level powers, and would have to know at least 5 1st-level powers, based on the psion chart.
> 
> Anyone know if there is more clear-cut rules for this somewhere?



Here's my lucky MS Excel psion class spreadsheet (ain't spreadsheets so damn useful for D&D?  ). A psion that maxes its power progression, whereby it learns higher level powers as soon as it can, has the following power level list at 20th level: 1st—5 powers; 2nd—4 powers; 3rd—4 powers; 4th—4 powers; 5th—4 powers;  6th—3 powers;  7th—3 powers;  8th—3 powers; 9th—6 powers. Beyond 20th, it continues to learn 2 powers/psion level of _any_ level, so it can choose 9th-level powers if it wanted to. (And which respectable psion wouldn't? Especially a star leviathan fending off astral dreadnoughts and red dragons bearing githyanki.) So a 24th-level psion could have a staggering total of 16 9th-level powers!


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok, if we take the list in homebrews and add my suggestions, we have the following numbers of powers by level:
1- 2, 2 - 2, 3 - 3, 4 - 4, 5 - 2, 6 - 2, 7 - 1, 8 - 1, 9 - 1.

We have our work cut out for us!  What other powers do you all suggest?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Adding freyar's suggestions to the Homebrews list yields...

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 383, save DC 14 + power level): 1st—control body, control object, inertial armor; 2nd—control air*, energy missile*; 3rd—energy cone*, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust; 4th—control body*, energy ball*, inertial barrier, telekinetic maneuver; 5th—energy current*, fiery discorporation*; 6th—dispelling buffer, null psionics field; 7th—reddopsi; 8th—psionic telekinetic sphere; 9th—tornado blast*.

*Power can be augmented.

Other suggestions:
9 - timeless body
8 - true metabolism
7 - psionic moment of prescience
6 - retrieve, temporal acceleration
5 - power resistance, psionic true seeing
4 - correspond, empathic feedback, psionic divination, trace teleport
3 - body adjustment, body purification, ubiquitous vision 
2 - cloud mind, detect hostile intent
1 - detect psionics, telempathic projection


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

This is a good start.  Control body needs to be deleted from the 1st level list, though.

If we're following RavinRay's numbers, we need all your suggestions at 1st & 2nd, one at 3rd (I'd say body adjustment and maybe drop energy cone to also take body purification), none at 4th (but I might drop energy bll to take trace teleport, both of them at 5th, one at 6th (maybe retrieve, except for the bit about the hand), 2 at 7th (in addition to moment of prescience, maybe divert teleport or personal mind blank), 2 at 8th (true metabolism + ?), and a lot at 9th.  Of course, we could subtract some of the 9th level ones for the 3rd and 4th level ones.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Updating:

9 - timeless body, tornado blast*, 4 more
8 - psionic telekinetic sphere, true metabolism, 1 more
7 - divert teleport, psionic moment of prescience, reddopsi
6 - dispelling buffer, null psionics field, retrieve
5 - energy current*, fiery discorporation*, power resistance, psionic true seeing
4 - control body*, inertial barrier, telekinetic maneuver, trace teleport
3 - body adjustment, body purification, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust, ubiquitous vision 
2 - cloud mind, control air*, detect hostile intent, energy missile*
1 - control object, detect psionics, inertial armor, telempathic projection

Plus 8 more total powers for levels 21-24.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Suggestions for the remaining powers:

9 - affinity field, apopsi, microcosm, reality revision
8 - bend reality, psionic mind blank
7 - personal mind blank
6 - mass cloud mind, temporal acceleration
5 - catapsi, leech field, psionic major creation
4 - aura sight


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

That looks like a fine list to me, even if I don't know what all of those do.


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## RavinRay (Mar 21, 2008)

Are you freakin' kidding me?! _Reality revision's_ like _psionic wish_.  

_Affinity field_ is great for when healing itself the leviathan gets to heal its allies at close range; likewise a dreadnought or red dragon that harms it in melee combat gets the damage too. Talk about passive aggressive.

I could go on and on about the powers, but let's just say a star leviathan armed with that list is gonna be a brute to take out.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Are you freakin' kidding me?! _Reality revision's_ like _psionic wish_.




Wanna drop it?  Unfortunately, it gets many 9th-level powers, and those in the SRD are few, so it's touch choosing for it.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

How do you manage the XP cost of a power or spell for a monster with intrinsic manifesting/casting ability like this?  Do you peg its XP by HD or something?

I don't mind making these hard to fight, but psionic etherealness might be even more appropriate for these, though I have no idea how that power works on the astral plane.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Good question.  Perhaps we should just avoid reality revison for simplicity's sake.



> It is possible to move from the Astral Plane to the Ethereal Plane in regions where teh two planes are coexistent or coterminous. If you are in a region that would not normally access the Ethereal Plane, no such travel is possible. A physical body moving from the Astral Plane to the Ethereal Plane becomes insubstantial (as the ethereal jaunt spell), whether it reached the Ethereal Plane by means of a spell or by moving through a color pool.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

Let's go with psi. etherealness, since it seems like it's at least partly useful.  Goes with the "astral traveler" flavor, too.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 6 at 27 ranks (162 total)
Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 17, Knowledge (psionics) 27, Knowledge (the planes) 27, Psicraft 27, Sense Motive 27

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

Skills look good.

Feats: Delay Power, Enlarge Power, Maximize Power, Psionic Endowment, Greater Psionic Endowment, Quicken Power, Unconditional Power, Widen Power, Improved Metapsionics

I'd go for Improved Manifestation, but I don't think they qualify (Int seems to be too low?).  I mostly went for metapsionics, but I could see Closed Mind or something similarly defensive in there instead.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Those should work.

CR 25?

Telepathy 500 ft.?

A star leviathan is 70 to 100 feet long and weighs x tons.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

That looks good, and I'd say they weigh 150-200 tons (similar to a blue whale).


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Looks good and definitely cool.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Here's one of the remaining 9 unconverted Dark Sun creatures.

*DAGGORAN*
Climate/Terrain: Wastelands, Tablelands
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 9, Hop 9
HIT DICE: 4
THACØ: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4’-6’ long)
MORALE: Average (11)
XP VALUE: 1,400

PSIONIC SUMMARY: Level 1 Dis/Sci/Dev 1/1/3 Attack/Defense Nil/M Score 13 PSPs 30
Psychokinesis — Sciences: detonate; Devotions: ballistic attack, control body, inertial barrier.

Appearance: Daggorans are large frog-like creatures with gold-colored skin. Their eyes are green with yellow pupils. Located between the daggorans’ shoulders is a green crystalline growth. Daggorans are creatures of the deserts near Draj. They are often trained and used as trackers by Drajian guards because of the daggorans’ innate ability to “pick up” and track the psionic signature of most intelligent and psionic creatures.

Combat: Daggorans can opt to jump up to their movement distance. This hop will clear any object up to one-third as high as the length of the leap and requires only a single round to accomplish. A jumping daggoran can attack in midair or at the end of its leap.

Daggorans frequently hunt in packs during times when food is scarce — generally the way of life in the desert. These packs are likely (60% chance) to follow and attack prey.  In the wild, when a daggoran comes upon a potential meal it usually launches an attack with its detonate psionic ability (which originates from the crystalline growth on its back) at the ground near a victim, sometimes killing it with the shrapnel created from the explosion. If the victim survives the initial attack, the daggoran rushes in to attack with its mouth, causing 2-12 (2d6) points of damage per hit.

Habitat/Society: Daggorans are social creatures, living and hunting in packs, much like wolves of other worlds. The hierarchy within a pack is strict with only the strongest daggoran as the leader. Whenever a daggoran wishes to vie for the position of pack leader, a battle to the death ensues. The victor quite obviously becomes the pack leader, while the loser becomes a meal for the rest of the pack.

Ecology: Daggorans have proven to be valuable hunters of the Athasian deserts as they help keep the population of rodents and other small animals down to a tolerable level. Unfortunately, thri-kreen consider daggorans a delicacy and as such, the daggoran population has been hunted to near extinction.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun: Shattered Lands Rule Book (1993).


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## RavinRay (Apr 26, 2008)

Ooh a Dark Sun beastie. Looks like a Medium magical beast (psionic) to me.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree with that type.  Anyone have stats for a dire frog or toad available?  They'd be good for comparison.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Dire Toad:  Str 10, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 7


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Assuming that's also medium, why don't we start with these.  Reading the text, though, I'd swap Str and Dex.  Also, since these will have SLA/PLAs, let's drop Wis to 11 and raise Cha to 13.  Also, why not bump Int to 4?

Str 14, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 13?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## RavinRay (Apr 29, 2008)

Int 4 seems a reasonable cap, a scan at the _PsiBook_ shows that only the brain mole among the psionic magical beasts has a Int of 2. I assume freyar the higher Str is for its Jump skill?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah, the higher Str is for jumping and because "The hierarchy within a pack is strict with only the strongest daggoran as the leader."

Do we need a special ability for enhanced jumping, or just a big racial bonus?

You guys know much more about psionic ability conversion than I do, so what is this going to need?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

A racial bonus to Jump is probably fine.

For the psionics, it will probably just have psi-like abilities.  Control body and inertial barrier are still around, but we'll need to find replacements for detonate and ballistic attack.


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## RavinRay (Apr 30, 2008)

> Combat: Daggorans can opt to jump up to their movement distance. This hop will clear any object up to one-third as high as the length of the leap and requires only a single round to accomplish. A jumping daggoran can attack in midair or at the end of its leap.



Unless Mental Leap is overkill, a daggoran can have this (as a bonus feat).


> In the wild, when a daggoran comes upon a potential meal it usually launches an attack with its detonate psionic ability (which originates from the crystalline growth on its back) at the ground near a victim, sometimes killing it with the shrapnel created from the explosion. If the victim survives the initial attack, the daggoran rushes in to attack with its mouth, causing 2-12 (2d6) points of damage per hit.



Detonate can be modeled on either _hail of crystals_  or _swarm of crystals_, but I favor the former:

*Detonate (Ps):* A daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to _hail of crystals_, except that the attack deals ? points of slashing damage in a 5-foot spread centered on itself. This ability is usable every so-and-so rounds or n/day.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Nice!   2d6 slashing?   3/day?  Or maybe 1/minute?

I think mental leap is a good choice, too.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

I like mental leap, too!  

For detonate, I have no idea how strong it was supposed to be.  However, I think it should have some nonzero range because the daggoran uses detonate and then jumps closer (at least the way I read it).  I like the way hail of crystals works, but we need to downscale it given the HD.  
How about this?

Detonate (Ps): Three times per day, a daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to hail of crystals at manifester level 4, except that the attack deals 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage to a hit target and 4d4 points of slashing damage to creatures caught in the explosion.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Updated.



> They are often trained and used as trackers by Drajian guards because of the daggorans’ innate ability to “pick up” and track the psionic signature of most intelligent and psionic creatures.




Detect psionics at will?  Or an ongoing Su effect?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

They're not too bright, so let's make it continuous.

Psionic Detection (Su): Daggorans continuously detect psionic auras as the power, except that the range is 300 ft.

I made the range longer than the power to help with tracking.

Feats: Track, maybe something like Endurance or Self-sufficient because they live in a desert? (A psionic version of one of those would be great.)


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## RavinRay (May 1, 2008)

I'll streamline _detonate_ because it doesn't do bludgeoning damage (the daggoran doesn't need to aim it as the area of effect is a burst centered on itself) and adjust the damage.

*Detonate (Ps):* Three times per day, a daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to the explosion of _hail of crystals_, except that the attack deals 3d4 points of slashing damage in a 5-foot burst centered on itself. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.

The hd damage must be the same as the manifester level (3d4 = ML 3rd). Based on its 2e stats with only a handful of sciences and devotions it should at best have an ML of 3rd. 

I agree with Track and Psionic Detection. Possible survival-themed feats are Mind Over Body or Rapid Metabolism.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

See, I really think detonate should be ranged based on the flavor text.  Let's see what Shade thinks.  ML3 is fine for me, though.

Rapid Metabolism is neat.  Even though it's in the psionics section, it's not exactly psionic, is it though?  Huh.


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## RavinRay (May 1, 2008)

Sure, I'd like Shade's input on the detonate. And yes, they're not strictly psionic, though they seem analogous to psychometabolism effects.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Hmmm...re-reading the entry, it sounds like the daggoran launches the attack similar and it bursts at the point of impact, similar to hail of crystals.  Although it isn't real clear, "at the ground near the victim" is what leans me that direction.

Good suggestion for Rapid Metabolism.  That's a perfect fit.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Ok, Shade, fill in the version of detonate you like. 

Looking at the other psi-like abilities, I'll say 3/day.  Is there a 3e version of ballistic attack?  And is manifester level 4 ok for a 4HD critter?


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Ok, Shade, fill in the version of detonate you like.




How's this?

Detonate (Ps): Three times per day, a daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to the hail of crystals power, except any creature or object struck by the ball of crystal takes 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage, and anyone within 20 feet of the explosion takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Looking at the other psi-like abilities, I'll say 3/day.




Sounds good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Is there a 3e version of ballistic attack?




I do not believe so.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> And is manifester level 4 ok for a 4HD critter?




Yeah, it should be fine.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Detonate looks good to me.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I do not believe so.




Anyone want to show what ballistic attack looked like?  Then we can come up with a psi-like Su ability for it.


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## RavinRay (May 3, 2008)

I found ballistic attack:


> This power can make any psionicist a "David" when he's facing "Goliath." It's a special variation of the telekinesis science. Instead of moving any object relatively slowly, ballistic attack allows the character to hurl a small object at a target. The object, no more than I pound in weight, can achieve deadly speeds. It must be within sight of the psionicist and cannot be anchored or attached to anything else. A rock is the most common weapon. The psionicist uses his regular THACO to determine whether he hits the target. If he succeeds, the missile inflicts ld6 points of damage (assuming, of course, that the character made a successful power check in the first place).



So we can write it as a weak version of telekinetic thrust.


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## freyar (May 4, 2008)

Hmm, what about this?

Ballistic Attack (Ps): Three times a day, a daggoran may psionically hurl a small (up to 1 pound in weight) object at an enemy up to 40 feet away, as the power telekinetic thrust, except as follows.  The daggoran makes a ranged attack (without applying either Dex or Int modifier to the attack) and deals 1d6 points of damage if successful.  This is equivalent to a second level power.  Manifester level 4th.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

It looks fine.  I'm assuming you added "(without applying either Dex or Int modifier to the attack)" because of the Int penalty it would suffer?

I almost feel like allowing it to use its Cha modifier would be more elegant.   

Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Yeah, I didn't want it to take the Int penalty.  Using the Cha modifier is a good idea!


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)?

A daggoran is 4 to 6 feet long and weighs x pounds. 

Daggorans speak x.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

CR 3, advancement is good, 100-150 lb?  Daggorans speak Common slowly with a very thick accent.

+8 racial bonus on Jump checks?  Or go even higher to +12?  What do similar sized froggies get (I'll check tonight if no one has that handy.)


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

It looks like +6 for toads (see Oriental Adventures) and +8 for the killer frog in Dungeon.  (The monstrous frog used a leap mechanic instead).


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Let's stick to +6, then, I guess.  They've already got Mental Leap.


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Updated.

Are we missing anything?


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Looks pretty much done to me!


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## RavinRay (May 7, 2008)

My thri-keen buddy says it looks mighty tasty!


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

This thread has lied dormant for over a year!

I've always like these following creatures, for reasons I can't explain.  

*WIND THROWER*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 3-24
ARMOR CLASS: 7/3
MOVE: 9.
HIT DICE: 5 + 3
% IN LAIR: 33%
TREASURE TYPE: M, Q (x3), Y
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type (strength bonuses possible)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Wind blast, psionics use, possible missile fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Save as 8 HD monster, immune to poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: S (4. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 180
Attack/Defense Modes: A, D / H
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/ 450 + 6/hp

These evil demi-humans are quite dwarflike in appearance, being short, stocky, strong, and very hairy. Their skin is light blue in color, and their hair tends to be red or white. They appear to be a distant and rare relative of normal dwarves.

All wind throwers wear studded leather armor under their clothes, but over their strong right arms they wear plate mail. This armor extends from the shoulder to the wrist, and over their hands are worn metal gauntlets. Anyone trying to hit this arm must do so against AC 3. This arm is so protected because with it a wind thrower is actually capable of hurling blasts of wind. This swirling wind affects everything in a 6” line (1” wide) in front of the thrower. It lasts for five rounds once it is thrown and it is so strong that it will slow all avian creatures therein by 50%, It will also cause all light missile weapons such as arrows, bolts, darts, and sling stones and bullets to completely miss their target. Against such heavier missile weapons as spears, javelins, hammers, daggers, etc., a -4 “to hit” is suffered. Fire attacks within this area, such as fireballs, flame strikes, dragon breath, and the like, will suffer -1 hp of damage per die. The wind blast will extinguish small fires such as torches and lanterns. A gust of wind spell cast against the wind blast will shorten its duration by one round for each spell cast.

These dwarves save as if they had 8 HD, and they are immune to all poison. They are capable of attacking and defending with their psionics, and each has two minor disciplines, determined randomly for each individual.  

Wind throwers hate goblins, kobolds, dwarves, and gnomes, and will always opt to attack them over any others in combat. A typical force of these dwarves will be armed as follows: hand axe 10%, hammer 5%, short sword 10%, mace 10%) mace and light crossbow 15%, short sword and short bow 15%, short halberd and dagger 20%, throwing hammer and two daggers 15%. Wind throwers have 19 strength in their right arms and 14 strength in their left arms, and so will usually attack with one-handed weapons in their right arms. The use of two-handed weapons like the short halberd will gain no strength bonuses “to hit” and on damage. 

Wind throwers are found in hills, mountains, and deserts, but in all cases their lair will be underground. There will be young in the lair equal to 50% of the number of adults. Those young who are capable of combat attack as 2 HD monsters, but with no wind-throwing or psionic abilities. The females and males both fight equally well. The leader of a clan is always a male with the maximum amount of hit points (43) and with the highest charisma of the clan. 

These dwarves have 60’ infravision and can determine underground phenomena as do dwarves. They can speak dwarven, gnomish, goblin, and as many other languages as their intelligence allows. They live as long as mountain dwarves do.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

More psionic evil dwarves, huh?  With blue skin.  Why do psionic critters all have blue skin?  

That said, these are kind of interesting!


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

It's not just psionics...look at Faker!  

I like the fact that only one arm can generate the effect, and thus the extra armor to protect it.

And we have precedent for different-strength arms...

Muscular Arm (Ex): A yagnoloth's larger arm functions as a primary natural weapon, even when it is used to make secondary attacks. This ability negates any secondary attack penalty and allows the yagnoloth its full Strength bonus with its claw, whether the attack is primary or secondary.


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## RavinRay (Jul 13, 2009)

So, we first got the duergar, then the Aleithian dwarves from the Legend of Sardior, now this. Moradin's not happy with this, I bet.

That wind effect seems to be the only unique psionic ability it has (I can use a stripped down _control air_ or _tornado blast_ for that), though, and we could carry over the attack/defense modes as PLAs when we get to those stats.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2009)

I could see all that.

Give them psion levels, or maybe psychic warrior?  I kind of like the latter.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Should we have its "wind throwing" gain power as it gains class levels, similar to a way that githyanki gain additional psi-like abilities?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

I like the wind throwing growing stronger. 

I don't think they need inherent manifesting, although psychic warrior seems like it should be a favored class. They should just have wind throwing, and a smattering of psi-like abilities (predominately ones that used to be attack and defense modes).


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, that makes the most sense.

Do we stick with 5 racial HD, or start 'em at 1 like most dwarves?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, derro have three. Let's keep them at 5. Do we want to keep them humanoids, or make them monstrous like derro as well?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

My vote's for monstrous.  The humanoid type doesn't seem to support more than a couple of HD very well.


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## RavinRay (Jul 15, 2009)

Agreed on increasing wind throwing (as if augmented), psychic warrior favored class, and a 5HD monstrous humanoid.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Let's figure out ability scores...

Duergar have +2 Constitution, –4 Charisma. 

Aleithian dwarves have +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. 

Int is listed as Very (11-12), so I think either no adjustment or +2.

Con appears high, like most dwarves.

I'd limit the Cha penalty to -2 or drop it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

Con 17, Cha 8, Int 12?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Which of the following dwarven traits should we retain (beyond those already listed in the wind throwers as characters section)?


Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. 
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. 
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. 
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including halforcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). 
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). 
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. 
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

Saves vs. poison and spells, totally.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Attack/Defense modes are psionic blast, id insinuation, mental barrier.

Two are 3rd-level powers, and the other is a 2nd-level power.  These are all within reason for a manifester of 5th-level, so shall we just give them all of these up front?

For the wind throwing, I think RavinRay's suggestion of using a toned-down tornado blast is probably the best approach.



> Wind throwers hate goblins, kobolds, dwarves, and gnomes, and will always opt to attack them over any others in combat.




We could modify the usual dwarven +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including halforcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears), and replace orcs with kobolds and possibly dwarves and/or gnomes.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

I like the racial bonus to attack goblinoids, dwarves and gnomes. The powers based on attack/defense modes are totally reasonable.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Not full immunity to poison? 

The rest I like.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Probably not full immunity to poison, but I could see boosting the bonus to +4 if you'd prefer.

Updated.



> A typical force of these dwarves will be armed as follows: hand axe 10%, hammer 5%, short sword 10%, mace 10%) mace and light crossbow 15%, short sword and short bow 15%, short halberd and dagger 20%, throwing hammer and two daggers 15%. Wind throwers have 19 strength in their right arms and 14 strength in their left arms, and so will usually attack with one-handed weapons in their right arms. The use of two-handed weapons like the short halberd will gain no strength bonuses “to hit” and on damage.




Go with mace and light crossbow on the attack lines?


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## RavinRay (Jul 17, 2009)

I agree with the bonus against orcs and goblinoids as well. Weapons aren't my strong stuff, but the two hammers aren't the ones for me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Heavy mace and light crossbow work for me.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.



> This arm is so protected because with it a wind thrower is actually capable of hurling blasts of wind. This swirling wind affects everything in a 6” line (1” wide) in front of the thrower. It lasts for five rounds once it is thrown and it is so strong that it will slow all avian creatures therein by 50%, It will also cause all light missile weapons such as arrows, bolts, darts, and sling stones and bullets to completely miss their target. Against such heavier missile weapons as spears, javelins, hammers, daggers, etc., a -4 “to hit” is suffered. Fire attacks within this area, such as fireballs, flame strikes, dragon breath, and the like, will suffer -1 hp of damage per die. The wind blast will extinguish small fires such as torches and lanterns. A gust of wind spell cast against the wind blast will shorten its duration by one round for each spell cast.




We'll probably need to blend this...

Tornado Blast :: d20srd.org

With this...

Control Winds :: d20srd.org


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## RavinRay (Jul 19, 2009)

Or maybe even with _wind wall_; I'll work on this over the weekend.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

I'll just say that it looks good and wait to see what RavinRay comes up with.


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## RavinRay (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry for being late on this, but we've been entertaining my sister and her family for the past few days while they're here on vacation from Down Under (via Japan and Europe, but that's another story). I used the text of _wind wall_ in part to draft this.

Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action a wind thrower can create a gust of swirling wind with its right arm, 6" long and 1" wide in in the direction it is pointing. This lasts 5 rounds is so strong flying creatures have their speed reduced by half. Projectile weapons are deflected and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance [instead of the -4 penalty perhaps]. Fire attacks within this area, such as fireball, flame arrow, dragon breath weapons, and the like, deals -1 point of damage per die [used the wording for sonic powers]. The blast automatically extinguishes candles, torches, and similar unprotected flames. A _gust of wind_ spell cast against the wind blast will shorten its duration by one round. As the wind thrower advances in level, the duration/range increases by n rounds/feet per n levels. [Maybe we can add conditions for creatures being checked and pushed back, possibly slamming against objects.)

Shade is that right, 6 inches by 1 inch (double quotes) and not feet? And should the wind thrower wait between uses because it has a duration of five rounds?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

A great start!

Back in First Edition, the inch symbol noted 10s of feet, so 6" = 60'.  It apparently was a holdover from D&D's roots as a miniatures game.  

I wonder if we should allow the wind thrower to sustain the blast for up to 5 rounds, but require a Concentration check to do so?   And maybe it has to wait 1d4 rounds after the effect ends (voluntarily or through a failed check)?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

I like the Concentration check and 1d4 round delay.  I'm not sure about the increasing duration/range with advancement; maybe just range.  Adding checking/pushing back is a possibility, but I think that may have been covered with the reduced flight speed business.  Anyway, this looks pretty good!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

Agreed to concentration checks, and the need to check and push opponents.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

Make it equivalent to severe wind (like gust of wind), which blows away Tiny or smaller creatures, knocks down Small creatures, checks Medium creatures, and has no effect on Large or larger creatures?   Or make it equivalent to windstorm, which blows away Small or smaller creatures, knocks down Medium creatures, checks Large or Huge creatures, and has no effect on larger creatures?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

I thought we'd decided that we weren't going to bother with that (given the reduced flight speed business).  But using severe wind is ok if we want to go that route.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

I find the blown away/checked/knocked down a bit more fun and flavorful than simply reducing flight speed.   Anyone else?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2009)

It's more standard, too, actually.  So replace the reduced flight speed with the usual effects of severe wind?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

Revising...

Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action a wind thrower can create a 60 foot line of swirling wind with its right arm. This is the equivalent of severe wind, so ranged weapon attacks directed at the wind thrower suffer a -4 penalty.  Creatures in the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be affected as follows:  Tiny or smaller creatures are blown away, Small creatures are knocks down, Medium creatures are checked.  Large or larger creatures are unaffected.  Fire attacks within this area, such as fireball, flame arrow, dragon breath weapons, and the like, deal -1 point of damage per die. The blast automatically extinguishes candles, torches, and similar unprotected flames. A gust of wind spell cast against the wind blast effectively neutralizes both effects until the duration of either expires.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.

A wind thrower can sustain its wind blast for up to 5 rounds, but it requires Concentration (treat this effect as a 3rd-level spell for purposes of Concentration checks).  After the wind blast ends for any reason, the wind thrower must wait 1d4 rounds before it may be used again.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2009)

Looks good!  Cha-based sounds right, too.


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## RavinRay (Aug 2, 2009)

Oh that's neat!


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

Updated.

I switched to Con-based, since they have a Cha penalty and it is their defining attack.

Skills: 24

Feats: 2

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-converting-real-world-animals-vermin-52.html


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

That sounds good.

Climb 8, Concentration 8, Listen 4, Spot 4?

I kind of like Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact.


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

Double post.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2009)

Those skills and feats appeal to me.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 3-4?

Level Adjustment: +3?

A wind thrower is 4 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I have to go with CR 4.

LA seems fine.

about as much as an adult human.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 5, 2009)

Agreed to CR and weight.

Let's see... the SQs should be listed in both the stat-block and the "as characters" section--stonecutting, stability, saving throw and attack bonuses, etc. Otherwise, people using these just as monsters are liable to loose them. 

It should be that Small creatures are knocked down, not "knocks". 

Also, if the right arm is supernaturally enhanced, shouldn't Powerful Arm be an Su? Otherwise, I'd say "freakishly muscled" or something like that.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Good catches.  I agree with all that.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Updated.

Should we give them a racial name, or is wind thrower no stranger than "mountain dwarf" or "shield dwarf"?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Shouldn't the Powerful Arm be listed in character write-up (more than +8 with right arm)?

Wind Dwarf?  Maybe there's something better, but I'm not coming up with it at the moment.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

Wind thrower is fine, I think.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Updated.



> There will be young in the lair equal to 50% of the number of adults. Those young who are capable of combat attack as 2 HD monsters, but with no wind-throwing or psionic abilities. The females and males both fight equally well. The leader of a clan is always a male with the maximum amount of hit points (43) and with the highest charisma of the clan.




Organization: Solitary or clan (3-24 plus 50% noncombatants plus x-x xth-level psychic warriors plus one leader of xth level)?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

5-10 1st or 2nd level psychic warriors plus one leader of 3rd or 4th level?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

That works for me.

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

I think they're done.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

*Tohr-kreen, J’ez*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common in the North, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION: Clutch and state
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to genius (8-18)
TREASURE: U (See below)
ALIGNMENT: Any lawful
NO. APPEARING: 3d12
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3 (x4)/1d6+1 or 1d6+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long)
MORALE: Elite (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 6

Tohr-kreen are large, intelligent insects, very similar to thri-kreen. Tohr-kreen build permanent settlements in the lands far to the north of the Tablelands, home to Tyr and the other humanoid city-states. For many years, the tohr-kreen have sent scouts to the Tyr region These scouts are called zik-trin’ta by other tohr-kreen, but are known as tohr-kreen to the peoples of the Tablelands. The zik-trin’ta are known as tohr-kreen in the MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM appendix for the DARK SUN campaign setting.

The most common tohr-kreen of the north are the j’ez, who have black chitin, and the j’hol, who are smaller and have red chitin. Members of both species have aggressive natures. Both are similar in most ways to thri-kreen.

J’ez Tohr-kreen
The figures given above are for mature adult j’ez. Others have the following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category every two years until they reach mature adult):
HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1d2  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1d3  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d4 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d6 venom
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d6+1 chatkcha
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d6+1 dodge missiles

J’ez have black chitin and four-fingered hands. Skin stretches over their chitin and they have long antennae. J’ez also have mouths that are odd for kreen. The general arrangement is circular, and the j’ez have inward-pointing fanglike parts around the circumference of their relatively flexible mouths. Extensions reach from the sides of the mouth and help secure food to be taken in by the “fangs” which dispense the tohr-kreen’s venom.

Combat: J’ez enjoy combat and war and are good military leaders. They prefer to use psionics against their opponents when possible, closing to melee when psionic attack is not an option. J’ez prefer manufactured weapons, especially the gythka, that can slash for 1-6 (1d6) points of damage against targets of man-size or smaller, or for 1-10 (1d10) points of damage against a larger target. Like thri-kreen, J’ez tohrkreen have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons, and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They learn other special abilities as they age. 

Leap: This ability allows J’ez to leap 20 feet straight up or 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.

Venom: A bite delivers this venom. Anyone bitten must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2-10 (2d10) rounds, man-sized for 2.8 (2d8) rounds, large creatures for 1-8 (1d8) rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for 1 round.

Chatkcha: J’ez can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3-8 (1d6+2) points of damage when it hits, and returns to the thrower when it misses. 

Dodge missiles: Mature J’ez can dodge missiles fired at them with a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: Many J’ez (50%) are psionicists. The rest have psionic wild talents (see The Complete psionics Handbook). Magical and psionic items: J’ez never use magical items, but all have at least one item with psionic powers.

Habitat/Society: J’ez usually live in rocky badlands and sandy wastes, terrain that exists throughout most of their nation in the North. J’ez are often psionicists and philosophers, but tend to be aggressive. Their philosophy requires them to remain combat capable. J’ez have mating habits and gestation periods similar to those of thri-kreen. J’ez can live to be 80 years old.

Ecology: Tohr-kreen are carnivores. They build towns and cities. They work with a similar species, the zik-chil, to produce zik-trin.ta scouts. J’ez architecture and art are average, but their literature is superb Treasure carried by a J’ez is often books and gems (substitute psionic items for any indicated magical items).

Originally appeared in Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Terrors Beyond Tyr (1995).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

So, how are we going to handle this? Adult only? Age categories?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Here's the 2e thri-kreen for comparison...

*Thri-Kreen*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate or tropical arid land 
FREQUENCY: Uncommon 
ORGANIZATION: Pack 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high (8-14) 
TREASURE: Varies 
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 2d12 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 
MOVEMENT: 18 
HIT DICE: 6+3 
THAC0: 13 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4(x4)/1d4+1, or 1d4+1 and by weapon 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L (11' long) 
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18) 
XP VALUE: 1,400 

The figures given above are for mature adult thri-kreen. Others have the following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category per year until they reach mature adult):

Claw/bite Special ability 
HD THACO XP damage gained (see below) 
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1 -- 
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1 -- 
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 leap 
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 -- 
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 venom, chatkcha 
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles 

Thri-kreen are a race of large, intelligent insects often referred to as ``mantis warriors.'' They roam the deserts and savannahs, where they have marked-out hunting territories. They have no need of sleep and can remain active through the day and night.

Mature adult thri-kreen are roughly 7 feet tall at the shoulder and 11 feet long. Of the six limbs protruding from their midsection, two are used for walking; the other four end in four-fingered hands. The tough, sandy-yellow exoskeleton is extremely hard. A thri-kreen has two compound eyes, usually black with highlighted eyespots, two antennae, and a complicated jaw structure that manipulates food as the thri-kreen chews. The antennae help the individual to maneuver through brush and grasslands in the darkness (they also reduce any melee combat penalty from darkness or blindness by 1; missile combat is not affected). Thri-kreen often wear harnesses and even some forms of clothing, but they never wear armor.

The native thri-kreen language is made up of clicks and the grinding of its jaw appendages. While it is difficult for other creatures to speak this tongue, it is just as difficult for a thri-kreen to imitate more standard speech patterns. Thri-kreen speak their own language, but some understand the Common tongue.

Thri-kreen seldom live more than 35 years.

Combat: A thri-kreen's chitinous exoskeleton gives it AC 5 naturally. Unarmed, it can attack with four claws and one bite attack per round. If using a weapon, the thri-kreen can attack with its weapon and bite. The gythka, a pole arm with a blade at each end, can slash for 1d6 hp damage against man-sized or smaller targets, or 1d10 hp damage against a larger target. The gythka can be thrown as a spear to inflict 1d6+2 hp damage. Thri-kreen also learn special combat maneuvers as they grow older, learning all by the time they are mature adults.

Leap: This ability allows a thri-kreen to leap 20 feet straight up or up to 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.

Chatkcha: This is a crystalline throwing wedge. A thri-kreen can throw two chatkcha per round, up to 90 yards. A chatkcha causes 1d6+2 damage when it hits, and returns to the thrower when it misses.

Venom: This venom is delivered through an older thri-kreen's bite. Anyone bitten must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2d10 rounds, man-sized for 2d8 rounds, large creatures for 1d8 rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for only one round.

Dodge missiles: A mature thri-kreen can dodge missiles fired at it on a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes, etc.) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: Some thri-kreen have psionic wild talents. There is a 50% chance that any thri-kreen will have a psionic wild talent, described in the Complete Psionics Handbook.

Magical Items: Thri-kreen can use most magical items, though those designed for humanoid creatures cannot be worn properly, so will not function for a thri-kreen.

Habitat/Society: Thri-kreen organize into hunting packs; there are no permanent thri-kreen communities. Packs range over wide territories that they call their own. Small groups consist only of mature adults. Groups of more than eight thri-kreen are two-thirds mature adults, and one-third other age categories (in about equal numbers).

Ecology: Thri-kreen are carnivores. They seldom hunt other intelligent creatures for food, but will do so in times of need. Mantis warriors have a well-known taste for elves, which keeps both races at an uneasy peace at best.

Related Species

The tohr-kreen, or mantis nobles, are larger, more cultured versions of thri-kreen. Though many of them wander their world to gain knowledge, they sometimes build cities as well. They regard thri-kreen as somewhat barbaric cousins, though there have been incidences of a tohr-kreen creating a permanent settlement of thri-kreen, or teaching a pack more civilized ways.

The xixchil are spacefaring mantis. These creatures are skilled surgeons and artificers, who enjoy replacing lost limbs with ``more efficient'' substitutes.



It looks like age categories are unnecessary (thank goodness!)


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 28, 2009)

Also, the 2e thri-kreen has been compacted into a single 2 HD creature in 3.X, as opposed to 6 HD for a specimen to have all its fun attacks. Should the tohr-kreen be a higher base HD than their thri-kreen cousins, or should we keep them down at 2 HD?


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## RavinRay (Aug 28, 2009)

OMG, the tohr-kreen have been on the back of my mind for months, and now that Dark Sun is the setting for 2010, will they appear there? (Course that's another story altogether.)

For the HD, I'm comparing their relationship to thri-keen to that of hobgoblins to goblins and salamanders to flamebrothers. In the first case, both have 1d8 (Medium and Small), but in latter, it's 9d8 (Medium) to 4d8 (Small). Since the tohr-kreen isn't that much bigger than the thri-keen, maybe they can have the same HD but higher Con for more bonus HP.

The 3.5e thri-keen comes in the "standard" version and the "fully psionic" variant in the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_. Should we do the same for the tohr-kreen?


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2009)

I could either do same HD with boosted Con or maybe 3HD for tohr-kreen.  

Of course we'll do a regular and psionic version!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 28, 2009)

I like the 3 HD option.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Before deciding on base HD, here are the other tohr-kreen for comparison purposes:

*Tohr-kreen, J’hol*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common in the North, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION: Clutch and state
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: U (See below)
ALIGNMENT: Any non-good
NO. APPEARING: 3d10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Leap
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 chatkcha, kyorkcha, dodge missiles
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 venom
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles

*Tohr-kreen, T’keech*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon in the North
ORGANIZATION: Clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high (8-14)
TREASURE: varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+1 (x5) or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Dodge missiles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7’tall)
MORALE: Elite (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 8

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1d2  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1d3  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d4 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d6 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d6+1 None
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d6+1 dodge missiles

*Tohr-kreen, Tondi*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any fertile land
FREQUENCY: Rare, and only in the North
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (11’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  camouflage
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 None
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 leap
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Hmmm, they all look basically like the thri-kreen, huh?  Well, we could peg them all to 2HD, like the 3e thri-kreen, but I kind of like varying in the 2-4HD range for some variety.


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## RavinRay (Sep 1, 2009)

Since the first two varieties are smaller than the thri-keen, but not by much, I'm for same HD and Con adjustment.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Since they are so similar, it might be easiest to just develop all four in tandem.   In fact, we might be able to just make a single "tohr-kreen" and note the slight differences within the entry.   Anyway, here are the entire writeups...

*Tohr-kreen, J’ez*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common in the North, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION: Clutch and state
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to genius (8-18)
TREASURE: U (See below)
ALIGNMENT: Any lawful
NO. APPEARING: 3d12
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3 (x4)/1d6+1 or 1d6+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ long)
MORALE: Elite (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 6

Tohr-kreen are large, intelligent insects, very similar to thri-kreen. Tohr-kreen build permanent settlements in the lands far to the north of the Tablelands, home to Tyr and the other humanoid city-states. For many years, the tohr-kreen have sent scouts to the Tyr region These scouts are called zik-trin’ta by other tohr-kreen, but are known as tohr-kreen to the peoples of the Tablelands. The zik-trin’ta are known as tohr-kreen in the MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM appendix for the DARK SUN campaign setting.

The most common tohr-kreen of the north are the j’ez, who have black chitin, and the j’hol, who are smaller and have red chitin. Members of both species have aggressive natures. Both are similar in most ways to thri-kreen.

J’ez Tohr-kreen
The figures given above are for mature adult j’ez. Others have the following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category every two years until they reach mature adult):
HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1d2  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1d3  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d4 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d6 venom
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d6+1 chatkcha
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d6+1 dodge missiles

J’ez have black chitin and four-fingered hands. Skin stretches over their chitin and they have long antennae. J’ez also have mouths that are odd for kreen. The general arrangement is circular, and the j’ez have inward-pointing fanglike parts around the circumference of their relatively flexible mouths. Extensions reach from the sides of the mouth and help secure food to be taken in by the “fangs” which dispense the tohr-kreen’s venom.

Combat: J’ez enjoy combat and war and are good military leaders. They prefer to use psionics against their opponents when possible, closing to melee when psionic attack is not an option. J’ez prefer manufactured weapons, especially the gythka, that can slash for 1-6 (1d6) points of damage against targets of man-size or smaller, or for 1-10 (1d10) points of damage against a larger target. Like thri-kreen, J’ez tohrkreen have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons, and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They learn other special abilities as they age. 

Leap: This ability allows J’ez to leap 20 feet straight up or 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.

Venom: A bite delivers this venom. Anyone bitten must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2-10 (2d10) rounds, man-sized for 2.8 (2d8) rounds, large creatures for 1-8 (1d8) rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for 1 round.

Chatkcha: J’ez can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3-8 (1d6+2) points of damage when it hits, and returns to the thrower when it misses. 

Dodge missiles: Mature J’ez can dodge missiles fired at them with a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: Many J’ez (50%) are psionicists. The rest have psionic wild talents (see The Complete psionics Handbook). Magical and psionic items: J’ez never use magical items, but all have at least one item with psionic powers.

Habitat/Society: J’ez usually live in rocky badlands and sandy wastes, terrain that exists throughout most of their nation in the North. J’ez are often psionicists and philosophers, but tend to be aggressive. Their philosophy requires them to remain combat capable. J’ez have mating habits and gestation periods similar to those of thri-kreen. J’ez can live to be 80 years old.

Ecology: Tohr-kreen are carnivores. They build towns and cities. They work with a similar species, the zik-chil, to produce zik-trin.ta scouts. J’ez architecture and art are average, but their literature is superb Treasure carried by a J’ez is often books and gems (substitute psionic items for any indicated magical items).

*Tohr-kreen, J’hol*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common in the North, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION: Clutch and state
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: U (See below)
ALIGNMENT: Any non-good
NO. APPEARING: 3d10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Leap
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

J’hol Tohr-kreen
The figures given are for mature adult J’hol. Others have the
following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category
per year until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 chatkcha, kyorkcha, dodge missiles
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 venom
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles

A J’hol has red chitin, three claws per hand, and large antennae. A J’hol.s abdomen is small compared to other kreens, and the J’hol is almost humanoid in appearance. A J’hol is better built for stony barrens and rocky badlands, terrain that exists throughout most of its nation.

Combat: J’hol enjoy combat. Many have warrior character classes and some are psionicists. J’hol prefer long-range combat with missiles and psionics, but also use then leaping ability to charge into combat (standard charging adjustments, -2 to initiative, +2 to attack rolls, and a +l penalty to AC). J’hol usually enter melee using a gythka, but also fight with claws and bite if necessary. J’hol tohr-kreen have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They also learn other special abilities as they grow older.

Leap: This ability allows J’hol to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward They can leap backward 10 feet. 

Chatkcha: J’hol can throw two chatkcha or kyorkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3.8 (1d6+2) points of damage, the kyorkcha, 3.10 (1d8+2) points of damage. Both weapons return to the thrower if they miss.

Dodge missiles: Mature J’hol can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 8 or better on 1d20. They cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus. 

Venom: Though J’hol produce venom like other kreen, most use it to produce the crystal needed to make chatkcha and kyorkcha. Only 5% of J’hol actually have a venomous bite.  Their venom paralyzes most creatures for 1.4 (1d4) rounds, huge and gargantuan creatures for only 1 round.

Psionics: At least one J’hol (and as many as 25%) in a group is a psionicist. About 50% of the rest have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete Psionics Handbook. 

Magical and psionic items: J’hol rarely use magical items, but sometimes carry items with psionic powers.

Habitat/Society: J’hol are more inclined toward building and crafting the other tohr-kreen. Their cities are elaborately made, and usually quite large, with vast parks, ornate decorations, high walkways, and tall spires. Popular professions among J’hol include the psionicist and all warrior professions. Gladiators are rare among J’hol, but J’hol enjoy combat and like watching gladiatorial contests; their arenas are some of the most popular in the North.

J’hol have mating habits and gestation periods similar to those of thri-kreen and can live to be 50 years old. 

Ecology: J’hol are builders and make fine clothing and tools, and they are the only kreen who routinely work metal J’hol make beautiful crystalline weapons. For indivlduals, a finely made crystalline weapon (a chatkcha or kyorkcha, or a gythka with crystalline heads) should be substituted for indicated art objects, while a psionic item should be used if a magical item is indicated.

*Tohr-kreen, T’keech*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon in the North
ORGANIZATION: Clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high (8-14)
TREASURE: varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+1 (x5) or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Dodge missiles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7’tall)
MORALE: Elite (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 8

These tohr-kreen are large, intelligent insects similar to thri-kreen. Like other tohr-kreen, T’keech and tondi are found in permanent settlements far north of the Tyr region. They seldom build their own settlements, however, and are usually found among other tohr-kreen.

T’keech have green chitin and are relatively non-aggressive. Tondi have a similar temperament, but have chitin that is a pinkish-purple in color.

The figures given above are for mature adult T’keech. Others have the following abilities, based on then age (they age one age category every two years until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1d2  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1d3  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d4 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d6 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d6+1 None
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d6+1 dodge missiles

T’keech have green chitin, indicating that they once lived in areas where plants were common. The green is a fairly dark shade, with lighter green along the thorax and abdomen.

T’keech have small abdomens and are similar in build to j’hol. T’keech have long antennae and fourclawed hands.

Combat: T’keech do not seek combat, but are quite capable when challenged. They refer melee combat and almost always attack without weapons, using their claws and bite. A group of T’keech includes one priest or druid and one with a warrior character class (usually a ranger). T’keech have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They develop other abilities as they grow older.

Leap: This ability allows T’keech to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward. They can leap 10 feet backward.

Venom: A bite delivers thus venom. Anyone bitten must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2.20 (2dl0) rounds, man-sized for 2.16 (2d8) rounds, large creatures for 1.8 (1d8) rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for 1 round.

Chatkcha: T’keech can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 1d6+2 points of damage when it hits, and returns to the thrower when it misses.

Dodge missiles: Mature T’keech can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: About 50% of T’keech have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete psionics Handbook.

Magical and psionic items: T’keech rarely have contact with magical items, but use such items if possible (unless the item is made specifically for a humanoid). T’keech sometimes use psionic items.

Habitat/Society: Most T’keech serve as laborers in the northern tohr-kreen nations. Small clutches of T’keech are found in each nation. T’keech are almost never nomadic, but some clutches have small, independent settlements near oases.

T’keech prefer to live in scrub plants and near oases, though they can be found anywhere in the North. T’keech have mating habits and gestatron periods similar to those of thri-kreen. They can live to be 75 years old.

Ecology: Tohr-kreen are carnivores. They almost always live in permanent settlements. T’keech produce quality crafts, but are seldom artists. Treasure carried by a T’keech usually consists of tools, weapons, and simple pieces of art.

*Tohr-kreen, Tondi*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any fertile land
FREQUENCY: Rare, and only in the North
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (11’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

The figures given are for mature adult tondi. Others have the following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category per three years until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  camouflage
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 None
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 leap
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles

The tondi are the most unusual of kreen. Their chitin is a mottled, pinkish-purple, and the exoskeletons of their abdomens are elaborately decorated with protrusions. When still, tondi look like giant flowers, or outcroppings of rock crystal (found in some places in the North). Besides their odd chitin, tondi are similar to other kreen. They have abdomens as large as those of to’ksa thri-kreen, long antennae, and three-clawed hands.

Combat: Tondi avoid combat and usually avoid contact with non-kreen altogether. Almost all tondi who choose a profession become druids. An individual encountered has druidic abilities. while one of any group of tondi is a druid as well.  If forced into combat, tondi prefer psionics and spells if possible, then missile combat, then melee combat. In melee, they rely on their wits and weapons.

Tondi have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells.
They also learn other special abilities as they grow older.

Venom: The venom of the tondi, delivered through the bite, is somewhat different from the venom of other kreen. The victim of a tondi.s bite must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Creatures of man-size or smaller are paralyzed for 3.24 (3d8) rounds, while all others are paralyzed for 2.16 (2d8) rounds, regardless of size.

Chatkcha: Tondi can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3.8 (1d6+2) points of damage when it hits. and returns to the thrower if it misses. A tondi chatkcha is a pale lavender in color. 

Leap: This ability allows tondi to leap 10 feet straight up or 40 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.

Dodge missiles: Mature tondi can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 11 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: About 50% of tondi have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete psionics Handbook.

Magical and psionic items: Tondi have little experience with magical items, but use them when givein the opportunity. They sometimes use psionic items as well.

Habitat/Society: Tondi are quite rare. They tend to be of neutral alignment, and most have a love of nature. Most are skilled herbalists. There are certain areas of badlands in the North with outcroppings of pinkish rock crystal, and large flowers are found in the scrub plains of the North. Tondi often lay eggs near these flowers and adults often live among the rocky badlands or in gardens of the flowers.

Rare in the North, tondi are completely unknown in the Tablelands. Still, it is rumored that the kreen druid of the Lost Oasis. Durwadala, is a tondi. Durwadala certainly fits the general description of the tondi personality, with her love of nature and detachment from other intelligent life forms. Since no one in memory has seen. Durwadala, it is entirely possible that she is a tondi.

All tondi are female: They reproduce by parthenogenesis, laying eggs that hatch into more females. 

Ecology: Tondi care for nature and seek to preserve plants and wildlife, with the exception of those needed for hunting. Tondi care little for material goods and they seldom carry any items, so almost never have treasure.  Some carry special magical or psionic items, using them to defend themselves.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Terrors Beyond Tyr (1995).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

OK, what are the differences among these guys? J'ez are basically just thri-kreen but smarter and lawful. J'hol drool crystal and make it into weapons, and are better at dodging missiles. T'keetch are good thri-kreen and... that's about it. Tondi have camouflage and really good venom.

So... why are we converting these guys? These sound like minor cultural differences. Most we can really do is make some feats for thri-kreen (Enhanced Venom, Secrete Crystal).


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

The differences are rather minor.  At least the J'ez and Tondi are a size category larger.

We might exaggerate the differences a bit more to make them unique enough to warrant conversion (such as the j'hol and t'keetch being better jumpers).  It sounds like several of the will have different favored classes (both standard and psionic) than thri-kreen.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I have to say, my eyes are glazing over partway through the wall of text.  Let's do these as separate ones, though.  It never hurt anyone to have too many monsters.  Except PCs, that is.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

J'ez = Large, +4 Int, fighter/psion?
J'hol = Medium, +2 Int, fighter/psychic warrior?
T’keech = Medium, Same Int, druid/wilder?
Tondi = Large, +2 Int, druid/wilder?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Looks good to me.  In that order, maybe 4HD, 3HD, 2HD, 3HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

Class and HD suggestions look fine to me.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Added j'ez to Homebrews.

I increased the HD and Int as we decided above, and made the usual size adjustments to Con, natural armor, and damage.  I did not modify Str or Dex yet, as I figured we needed to discuss.  +8 Str seemed too much, and I'm not sure a Dex penalty is needed (and may, in fact, screw up some of their racial fighting styles).

The special abilities are unchanged from the thri-kreen at this time.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

You got a problem with your link there, Shade. 

How about +4 to Str, no modifiier to Dex?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> You got a problem with your link there, Shade.




Not anymore!  



freyar said:


> How about +4 to Str, no modifiier to Dex?




That works for me.  Anyone else?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 5, 2009)

Agreed to +4/-0 for Str/Dex.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Updated.

Comparing special abilities to standard thri-kreen, venom, leap, and dodge missiles are all identical.  



> J’ez usually live in rocky badlands and sandy wastes, terrain that exists throughout most of their nation in the North.




Skills: *A thri-kreen has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in sandy or arid settings.

Shall we change that to "sandy or rocky settings"?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 8, 2009)

That change sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2009)

Looking good.  Importing thri-kreen abilities with that change also sounds good here.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Updated.

Stick with usual thri-kreen psi-like abilities for psionic "variant"?  Or swap a few out for more melee-focused powers, since...

"J’ez enjoy combat and war and are good military leaders. They prefer to use psionics against their opponents when possible, closing to melee when psionic attack is not an option."


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

I think that's just a sign of a psionic class as favored (since it sounds like they attack from a distance, perhaps psion (psychokinesis) or wilder).


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Wilder sounds fun, a little less usual.  While not necessary, it might distinguish them a little to change a couple of the psi-likes.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Upthread, we'd pegged 'em as psions/fighters, and saved wilder as a favored class for the more "naturalistic" subspecies.

So we're sticking with the standard thri-kreen PLAs?

Skills: 21
Thri-kreen have Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, and Spot.

Feats: Deflect Arrows (B), Multiweapon Fighting, 1 more


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Ok, let's go with psion/fighter.

3 ranks in each of those plus Tumble?

Ability Focus (poison)?  Or maybe Weapon Focus (gythka)?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Skill suggestions sound good.

I prefer WF to AF, since they're venom wasn't any better than standard thri-kreen.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2009)

Agreed on Weapon Focus.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

Updated.

I pulled a rank off Balance and Jump and put them into Tumble, as the synergy bonus to both was better.  

Environment: Any land?

Challenge Rating: 3?

A j'ez is 9 feet long and weighs about x pounds.  (Thri-kreen don't have a weight listed in their monster writeup, but  Base Weight is 135 lb. for males (100 for females) x (2d6) lb.)


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Do we know the temperature of the Northern Dark Sun lands?

CR 3 looks good.


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## Jaysyn (Sep 11, 2009)

Athas.org had converted the Kreen to 3.5e quite a while ago.  Daggoran too.  I think Pazio did the Kreen as well.

Just letting you guys know.



			
				Terrors of Athas 3.5e said:
			
		

> Thri-Kreen
> Medium Monstrous Humanoid
> Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp)
> Initiative: +2
> ...


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah. Thri-kreen are all over the place in canon--MM2, Expanded Psionics Handbook and Shining South. We're doing mechanical stuff to the tohr-kreen rather than just making them flavor-text.


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## Jaysyn (Sep 11, 2009)

Ah ok, I'm seeing that now.  Sorry about that.  Tohr-Kreen should still be immune to sleep, right?


----------



## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Jaysyn said:


> Ah ok, I'm seeing that now.  Sorry about that.  Tohr-Kreen should still be immune to sleep, right?




Indeed.  We've got "immunity to sleep effects" on the SQ line to cover that.

An ankheg is about 10 feet long and weighs almost 800 pounds.  So maybe 750 pounds for a typical 9-foot J'ez?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

More like 600 if it scales every direction.  I don't mind making them beefy, but I'd think the (stronger) ankhegs would be beefier.  So maybe the lower weight 600 lb is better.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Agreed to the 600 lbs.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Updated.

Ready to move on?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Yup!


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Here's the other Large one...

*Tohr-kreen, Tondi*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any fertile land
FREQUENCY: Rare, and only in the North
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (11’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

The figures given are for mature adult tondi. Others have the following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category per three years until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  camouflage
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 None
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 leap
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles

The tondi are the most unusual of kreen. Their chitin is a mottled, pinkish-purple, and the exoskeletons of their abdomens are elaborately decorated with protrusions. When still, tondi look like giant flowers, or outcroppings of rock crystal (found in some places in the North). Besides their odd chitin, tondi are similar to other kreen. They have abdomens as large as those of to’ksa thri-kreen, long antennae, and three-clawed hands.

Combat: Tondi avoid combat and usually avoid contact with non-kreen altogether. Almost all tondi who choose a profession become druids. An individual encountered has druidic abilities. while one of any group of tondi is a druid as well.  If forced into combat, tondi prefer psionics and spells if possible, then missile combat, then melee combat. In melee, they rely on their wits and weapons.

Tondi have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They also learn other special abilities as they grow older.

Venom: The venom of the tondi, delivered through the bite, is somewhat different from the venom of other kreen. The victim of a tondi.s bite must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Creatures of man-size or smaller are paralyzed for 3.24 (3d8) rounds, while all others are paralyzed for 2.16 (2d8) rounds, regardless of size.

Chatkcha: Tondi can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3.8 (1d6+2) points of damage when it hits. and returns to the thrower if it misses. A tondi chatkcha is a pale lavender in color. 

Leap: This ability allows tondi to leap 10 feet straight up or 40 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.

Dodge missiles: Mature tondi can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 11 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: About 50% of tondi have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete psionics Handbook.

Magical and psionic items: Tondi have little experience with magical items, but use them when givein the opportunity. They sometimes use psionic items as well.

Habitat/Society: Tondi are quite rare. They tend to be of neutral alignment, and most have a love of nature. Most are skilled herbalists. There are certain areas of badlands in the North with outcroppings of pinkish rock crystal, and large flowers are found in the scrub plains of the North. Tondi often lay eggs near these flowers and adults often live among the rocky badlands or in gardens of the flowers.

Rare in the North, tondi are completely unknown in the Tablelands. Still, it is rumored that the kreen druid of the Lost Oasis. Durwadala, is a tondi. Durwadala certainly fits the general description of the tondi personality, with her love of nature and detachment from other intelligent life forms. Since no one in memory has seen. Durwadala, it is entirely possible that she is a tondi.

All tondi are female: They reproduce by parthenogenesis, laying eggs that hatch into more females. 

Ecology: Tondi care for nature and seek to preserve plants and wildlife, with the exception of those needed for hunting. Tondi care little for material goods and they seldom carry any items, so almost never have treasure.  Some carry special magical or psionic items, using them to defend themselves.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Terrors Beyond Tyr (1995).


Upthread we decided on Large, 3 HD, +2 Int, and druid/wilder for preferred class.  Boost Wis as well since we're going the druidic route?


----------



## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Yeah, let's also boost Wis +2.  They should have some kind of camouflage, maybe slightly different poison, maybe some ability to make two ranged attacks as a standard action.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Well, all thri-kreen get camouflage as a psi-like. Perhaps we should strip that from the previous one?


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Actually, it sounds like tondi get a natural camouflage similar to +4 racial bonus in sandy or rocky/arid areas like the j'ez and thri-kreen, in addition to the psionic power.

Added to Homebrews.

Tondi chatkcha ability is identical to thri-kreen.



> Leap: This ability allows tondi to leap 10 feet straight up or 40 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.






> Leap: This ability allows a thri-kreen to leap 20 feet straight up or up to 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.




Tondi are worse jumpers.  +20, rather than the usual +30, racial bonus?



> Venom: The venom of the tondi, delivered through the bite, is somewhat different from the venom of other kreen. The victim of a tondi's bite must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Creatures of man-size or smaller are paralyzed for 3-24 (3d8) rounds, while all others are paralyzed for 2-16 (2d8) rounds, regardless of size.






> Venom: This venom is delivered through an older thri-kreen's bite. Anyone bitten must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2d10 rounds, man-sized for 2d8 rounds, large creatures for 1d8 rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for only one round.




In 3.5, thri-kreen have standardized venom regardless of victim's size.  So increase the paralysis duration and/or initial Dex damage?

Dodge missiles: Tondi have a 10% greater chance to dodge missiles than normal thri-kreen.   Maybe give them Snatch Arrows as a bonus feat as well, or note that they can use their Deflect Arrows feat twice per round?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Longer duration of paralysis works for me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

3d6 minutes (preserving the 3d8 vs. 2d8 round differential of the 2e tondi and thri-kreen)?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sure! Alternately, it could do Dex damage plus paralysis.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm fine either way.  Anyone else have a preference?

Thoughts on the Snatch Arrows/extra use of Deflect Arrows?

Also...



> Tondi have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells.




Immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?  Or just charms and compulsions (in addition to the usual thri-kreen immunity to sleep)?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2009)

Immune to charms and compulsions, and I like Snatch Arrows. It's underused.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Generally agree with demiurge.  Let's go with Dex damage plus paralysis for the poison in the secondary damage (I think that's what demiurge meant).  I'd like to increase the racial Hide bonus, if that's how we're going to treat the camouflage, since it sounds like their appearance blends in quite well.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Sounds good.

So secondary damage 1d6 Dex plus paralysis for 2d6 minutes, or 1d6 Dex plus paralysis for 3d6 minutes?

+8 racial bonus on Hide checks in sandy or rocky settings?  Or should we expand it to plains and/or forests as well due to their ability to appear as a large flower?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

1d6 Dex plus paralysis for 2d6 minutes. Plains, yes, forests, no.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d6 Dex plus paralysis for 2d6 minutes. Plains, yes, forests, no.



That sounds reasonable enough to me.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 12
Feats: Deflect Arrows (B), Multiweapon Fighting, Snatch Arrows (B), 1 more

Remember...

"Tondi avoid combat and usually avoid contact with non-kreen altogether."
"If forced into combat, tondi prefer psionics and spells if possible, then missile combat, then melee combat. In melee, they rely on their wits and weapons."


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

So perhaps we should take away Multiweapon Fighting, even. Dodge and Mobility?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

That's probably reasonable, considering in the original writeup they didn't have the gythka listed like most other kreen.

For skills, 6 ranks in Knowledge (nature) and 2 each in the usual kreen skills (Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, and Spot)?  Maybe borrow a rank or two for Survival?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

Agreed to dropping multiweapon and using Dodge and Mobility.

Proposed skills look good, maybe dropping Balance altogether to fill in Survival.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

I'd like to keep at least a single rank in Balance so it stays on the class skills list.  I shaved a rank off Balance and a rank off Jump to help Survival.

Updated.

I think we're just about finished.

Should we remove the gythka from Weapon Familiarity as well?

CR: 2?

A tondi is 11 feet long and weighs about x pounds. (We made j'ez is 9 feet long and weighs about 600 pounds).


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

I could go either way on the gythka.  CR 2 is ok.  800lb?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2009)

I think they should be familiar with the gythka, but not proficient unless they take a class with Martial Weapon Prof.


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

So leave it in Weapon Familiarity, but just drop it from the attacks line.  That should work, right?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 20, 2009)

That's what I was thinking, yes.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

Ready for the next one?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd say so.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

*Tohr-kreen, J’hol*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Common in the North, very rare elsewhere
ORGANIZATION: Clutch and state
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional (8-16)
TREASURE: U (See below)
ALIGNMENT: Any non-good
NO. APPEARING: 3d10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 (x4)/1d4+1 or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Leap
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Missile dodge
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 7

J’hol Tohr-kreen
The figures given are for mature adult J’hol. Others have the
following abilities, based on their age (they age one age category
per year until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d3 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d3 chatkcha, kyorkcha, dodge missiles
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d4+1 venom
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d4+1 dodge missiles

A J’hol has red chitin, three claws per hand, and large antennae. A J’hol.s abdomen is small compared to other kreens, and the J’hol is almost humanoid in appearance. A J’hol is better built for stony barrens and rocky badlands, terrain that exists throughout most of its nation.

Combat: J’hol enjoy combat. Many have warrior character classes and some are psionicists. J’hol prefer long-range combat with missiles and psionics, but also use then leaping ability to charge into combat (standard charging adjustments, -2 to initiative, +2 to attack rolls, and a +l penalty to AC). J’hol usually enter melee using a gythka, but also fight with claws and bite if necessary. J’hol tohr-kreen have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They also learn other special abilities as they grow older.

Leap: This ability allows J’hol to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward They can leap backward 10 feet. 

Chatkcha: J’hol can throw two chatkcha or kyorkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 3.8 (1d6+2) points of damage, the kyorkcha, 3.10 (1d8+2) points of damage. Both weapons return to the thrower if they miss.

Dodge missiles: Mature J’hol can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 8 or better on 1d20. They cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus. 

Venom: Though J’hol produce venom like other kreen, most use it to produce the crystal needed to make chatkcha and kyorkcha. Only 5% of J’hol actually have a venomous bite.  Their venom paralyzes most creatures for 1.4 (1d4) rounds, huge and gargantuan creatures for only 1 round.

Psionics: At least one J’hol (and as many as 25%) in a group is a psionicist. About 50% of the rest have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete Psionics Handbook. 

Magical and psionic items: J’hol rarely use magical items, but sometimes carry items with psionic powers.

Habitat/Society: J’hol are more inclined toward building and crafting the other tohr-kreen. Their cities are elaborately made, and usually quite large, with vast parks, ornate decorations, high walkways, and tall spires. Popular professions among J’hol include the psionicist and all warrior professions. Gladiators are rare among J’hol, but J’hol enjoy combat and like watching gladiatorial contests; their arenas are some of the most popular in the North.

J’hol have mating habits and gestation periods similar to those of thri-kreen and can live to be 50 years old. 

Ecology: J’hol are builders and make fine clothing and tools, and they are the only kreen who routinely work metal J’hol make beautiful crystalline weapons. For indivlduals, a finely made crystalline weapon (a chatkcha or kyorkcha, or a gythka with crystalline heads) should be substituted for indicated art objects, while a psionic item should be used if a magical item is indicated.



Upthread, we pegged them at 3 HD, Medium, +2 Int, fighter/psychic warrior


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

Sounds good so far. Drop poisonous bite altogether, give them a "secrete crystal" SQ.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

That sounds right.  Also: do thri-kreen have kyorchkas, or should we write those up?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

I do not believe kyorkcha made it to 3e.

The 2e Monstrous Manual thri-kreen entry makes no mention of them.

From _Thri-kreen of Athas_:

*The Kyorkcha*
An invention of the tohr-kreen of the north, the lcyorkcha is a more dangerous variant of the chatkcha. It consists of a curved blade, much like a boomerang, with several protrusions along the edge, as well as spikes that jut out near each end. The kyorkcha, like the chatkcha, has a hole in the middle.

The kyorkcha can be made of dasl, or of stone, bone, hardwood, or metal. A kyorkcha's average damage is greater than that of the chatkcha, with a range of 1d8+2 points of damage versus the chatkcha's ld6+2 (against creatures of man-size or smaller). 

Most kyorkcha are edged on both front and back, though some are made with a blunt back edge; these are used to knock out foes or prey. Only a blunt kyorkcha can be used in this way. (A proficient user suffers a -1 attack roll penalty.  On a successful hit, the chance for a knockout is 3% per point of damage caused. Only 25% of the damage of a knockout attack is real; the rest is temporary. A thri-kreen cannot be instantly knocked out, but might fall unconscious if he or she takes enough damage.)

The kyorkcha is held like the chatkcha, with a digit on either side of the kyorkcha's leading prong, and the third digit at the center of the weapon's trailing edge. The details of throwing are similar to those of the chatkcha.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

I say we write these up as chatkchas with increased damage and the option of dealing nonlethal damage (at a reduced penalty compared to normal weapons or even no penalty).


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Sounds like a plan.



> Dodge missiles: A mature thri-kreen can dodge missiles fired at it on a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes, etc.) modify this roll by their magical bonus.






> Dodge missiles: Mature J’hol can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 8 or better on 1d20. They cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.




J'hol are slightly better.  Snatch Arrows as an additional bonus feat again, or thri-kreen standard?



> Leap: This ability allows J’hol to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward They can leap backward 10 feet.






> Leap: This ability allows a thri-kreen to leap 20 feet straight up or up to 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.




J'hol are better jumpers, so boost leap to +40?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

Snatch Arrows again and +40 sound good.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

Agreed to snatch arrows, +40 and the throwing weapons able to do nonlethal.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

I'd do the kyorkcha, but I don't remember the format for weapon write-ups. 

Ok, how do we want to do the secrete crystal?  They can create a chatkcha as a full-round action or a kyorkcha as 2 full-round actions?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Double post.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

*Kyorkcha:* This exotic ranged weapon is a more dangerous variant of the chatkcha. It consists of a curved blade, much like a boomerang, with several protrusions along the edge, as well as spikes that jut out near each end. The kyorkcha, like the chatkcha, has a hole in the middle. Its sheer weight makes it unwieldy in the hands of those not proficient with it.

A kyorkcha deals 1d8 points of piercing damage and has a range increment of 20 feet. It deals double damage on a critical hit and threatens a critical hit on an attack roll of 18-20.  A kyorkcha can be used to deal nonlethal damage with no penalty on the attack roll.
Cost: 10 gp; Weight: 5 lb.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

I think their secretion takes a longer time than a few rounds, doesn't it? Besides which, they'll need to craft the crystal into the weapon--I got the impression this just granted them raw materials, not a weapon. Something like Runstibble's wealth generation ability.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Ok, fair enough.  How do you want to write that up?  I guess I'm asking how do we now make them different than the other kreen who just use rocks lying around.  Maybe they can make a weapon in an hour or a few hours?

But it would be cool if they could spit out weapons.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Something like this?

Secrete Crystal (Ex):  A j'hol can secrete a liquid that quickly hardens into a crystalline substance.  A j'hol can produce up to x pounds of crystal each day, which may be used as raw materials in the creation of any item that could normally be crafted from wood, stone, or metal.  A weapon or armor created with this crystal functions exactly the same as its wood, stone, or metal counterparts, except the crystal has hardness x and x hit points per inch of thickness.   Crystalline items may be enhanced my magic as if they were a wood, stone, or metal item.   Crystalline items are more susceptible to shatter spells (see the shatter spell description) and similar effects.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2009)

That'll work, but I wouldn't mind adding something about it being easier or faster to craft just after being secreted.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

> Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week.
> 
> If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.




We could either reduce the DC by 1 or 2, or expand the success multiplier by 1 (thus, doubling the price results in one-third time, and tripling results in one-fourth time).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 29, 2009)

Or we could allow them to craft a weapon out of their newly excreted crystal in a set amount of time. Say, one minute.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

That is probably a simpler, better mechanic.

1 minute for a weapon or similar-sized item, 5 minutes for armor, bigger stuff follows normal Craft rules?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Updated.

Should we treat the secreted crystal as mundane crystal (as detailed in the XPH)?  That would give it 25 hit points per inch of thickness and a hardness of 8.


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2009)

Yeah, let's just make it normal crystal per the SRD.  Maybe 5 lb of crystal a day, so they can make a kyorkcha?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Updated.

I added a note that mulitple j'hol can combine their crystal to craft larger objects, as I presume it is used in building their cities.

Skills: 12 ranks
Keep the usual Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, and Spot of kreen, and maybe add in Craft?

A j'hol is 6 feet long and weighs about x pounds. J’hol can live to be 50 years old.

Challenge Rating: 2?  (same as kreen; 1 more HD but loss of poison seems to even out)

Alignment: Usually nongood?

Level Adjustment: +2


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2009)

All good suggestions.  Though I wonder if we're getting too many skills for the number of ranks.  Maybe swap out Balance for Craft?


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

The only issue with dropping the ranks is that it ceases to be a racial class skill, and I see nothing in the original writeup to indicate these fellows would be any less inclined to use the typical kreen skills.

How about Balance 1, Climb 1, Craft 3, Hide 2, Jump 1, Listen 2, Spot 2?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

That's fine, then.  I mostly wanted to make sure they got a little bit of Craft.


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left for this one?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

I think they look good.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Yup, all set.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Last one!

*Tohr-kreen, T’keech*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon in the North
ORGANIZATION: Clutch 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to high (8-14)
TREASURE: varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 6+3
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+1 (x5) or 1d4+1 and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Dodge missiles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7’tall)
MORALE: Elite (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION: MAC 8

These tohr-kreen are large, intelligent insects similar to thri-kreen. Like other tohr-kreen, T’keech and tondi are found in permanent settlements far north of the Tyr region. They seldom build their own settlements, however, and are usually found among other tohr-kreen.

T’keech have green chitin and are relatively non-aggressive. Tondi have a similar temperament, but have chitin that is a pinkish-purple in color.

The figures given above are for mature adult T’keech. Others have the following abilities, based on then age (they age one age category every two years until they reach mature adult):

HD THAC0 XP Claw/bite Damage Special Ability
Larva 1+3 19 65 1/1d2  None
Child 2+3 17 120 1/1d3  None
Young 3+3 17 175 1d3/1d4 leap
Young adult 4+3 15 270 1d3/1d6 venom, chatkcha
Adult 5+3 15 975 1d4/1d6+1 None
Mature adult 6+3 13 1,400 1d4/1d6+1 dodge missiles

T’keech have green chitin, indicating that they once lived in areas where plants were common. The green is a fairly dark shade, with lighter green along the thorax and abdomen.

T’keech have small abdomens and are similar in build to j’hol. T’keech have long antennae and fourclawed hands.

Combat: T’keech do not seek combat, but are quite capable when challenged. They refer melee combat and almost always attack without weapons, using their claws and bite. A group of T’keech includes one priest or druid and one with a warrior character class (usually a ranger). T’keech have a natural AC 5 because of their exoskeletons and are immune to hold person and charm person spells. They develop other abilities as they grow older.

Leap: This ability allows T’keech to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward. They can leap 10 feet backward.

Venom: A bite delivers thus venom. Anyone bitten must make a successful save vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2.20 (2dl0) rounds, man-sized for 2.16 (2d8) rounds, large creatures for 1.8 (1d8) rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for 1 round.

Chatkcha: T’keech can throw two chatkcha per round, as far as 270 feet. A chatkcha causes 1d6+2 points of damage when it hits, and returns to the thrower when it misses.

Dodge missiles: Mature T’keech can dodge missiles fired at them on a roll of 9 or better on 1d20; they cannot dodge magical effects, only physical missiles. Magical physical missiles (arrows, thrown axes) modify this roll by their magical bonus.

Psionics: About 50% of T’keech have psionic wild talents, described in The Complete psionics Handbook.

Magical and psionic items: T’keech rarely have contact with magical items, but use such items if possible (unless the item is made specifically for a humanoid). T’keech sometimes use psionic items.

Habitat/Society: Most T’keech serve as laborers in the northern tohr-kreen nations. Small clutches of T’keech are found in each nation. T’keech are almost never nomadic, but some clutches have small, independent settlements near oases.

T’keech prefer to live in scrub plants and near oases, though they can be found anywhere in the North. T’keech have mating habits and gestatron periods similar to those of thri-kreen. They can live to be 75 years old.

Ecology: Tohr-kreen are carnivores. They almost always live in permanent settlements. T’keech produce quality crafts, but are seldom artists. Treasure carried by a T’keech usually consists of tools, weapons, and simple pieces of art.


Upthread, we pegged them as 2 HD, Medium, Same Int as thri-kreen, druid/wilder.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Leap: This ability allows T’keech to leap 30 feet straight up or 60 feet forward. They can leap 10 feet backward.






> Leap: This ability allows a thri-kreen to leap 20 feet straight up or up to 50 feet forward. They cannot leap backward.




Once again, the t'keech is superior to the thri-kreen with its leap, so +40 bonus?

Venom is identical to thri-kreen, as is dodge missiles.

To help differentiate them more from thri-kreen, perhaps a lessened Cha penalty (and possibly a lower Dex bonus to offset it)?



> T’keech have green chitin, indicating that they once lived in areas where plants were common. The green is a fairly dark shade, with lighter green along the thorax and abdomen.






> T’keech prefer to live in scrub plants and near oases, though they can be found anywhere in the North.




A t’keech has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas with at least light undergrowth?


----------



## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

All that sounds reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

Updated.

Add Craft to the thri-kreen's class skills (Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, and Spot)?


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2009)

Sure.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Scrap that idea.  It doesn't have enough skill points to cover a 6th class skill.  

Should we remove the Int penalty, or replace one of the other skills with Craft?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

Replace Balance. It sounds like these guys stick to fairly flat terrain.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

I think so. That's the last of 'em, right?


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Indeed.  In fact, that's the last of the Dark Sun monsters unless someone deems the soul shards worthy of conversion.


----------



## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, that one was pretty fast.

Those soul shards were just nasty.  We could convert them as "DM fiat TPKs" if you want.


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

This one's barely "psionic", but I had earmarked it for the vermin thread before I realized it was clearly a magical beast.

*Horseshoe Crab, Giant*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (top) / 6 (underside)
MOVE: 11"//18" (6")
HIT DICE: 6 + 6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 -4/1-4/3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to will-force spells, cold, electricity; reflects psionic attacks; surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (up to 25 ' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/see below
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V1/650 + 8/hp

These armored predators roam coastal waters and beaches, feeding on mollusks, worms, plants, carrion, and anything else they can catch. The giant horseshoe crab looks formidable, with its dark brown segmented carapace, fearsome-looking tail, and large compound eyes. The tail, in fact, is never used for fighting and can be safely grasped. It is powerful and highly mobile and is used as a prow when burrowing through sand and to right an overturned crab.

On its underside the crab has a sucking mouth flanked by two crablike claws. Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; all that a crab seizes is passed here by its claws and then transferred forward into the mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material. (The crushing noise the crab makes while eating has earned it the nickname "chont.") Behind these are five pairs of legs. The first four can be used as pincers and have spurlike spikes to grip and break up food; the last pair sport leaflike "wings" which aid in swimming and clear away mud when the crab is burrowing. If a crab loses its claws, the foremost pair of legs will serve as weapons instead (same damage figures).

Behind these, under the second segment of the carapace, are five pairs of gills with long flaps that keep water moving over the gill membranes and aid in swimming. 

Horseshoe crabs have three pairs of eyes: one set on the underside of its front rim, a large pair on the carapace, and a small hidden pair atop the abdomen. Thus, they can see the approach of creatures out to a 9" range (or the limit of sight in the surrounding waters, if less), and are rarely surprised. These eyes can distinguish movement and masses of color, but not images. 

Huge numbers of horseshoe crabs come ashore on certain beaches at certain times to mate. The eggs they lay then hatch into marine larvae that slowly grow to full size (treat larvae as having 1-4 HD, with attacks of 1-2/1-2/1-6).

Giant horseshoe crabs differ from their smaller cousins in having magical powers. Chonts are immune to all mind-control spells and all cold and electrical attacks, and are able to reflect back all psionic attacks upon the attacker (but otherwise exhibit no psionic powers). They have the ability to cast one shocking grasp spell at will by touch every 10 turns, and the power to cast one 4d6 lightning bolt every 25 turns (range and other statistics as per the spell).

Chonts will always defend their smaller brethren if the latter are attacked nearby. Sailors report that these normally placid creatures occasionally attack and smash small craft, attacking in a group by ramming the boat with their armored snouts and then seizing creatures in the water. 

An undamaged horseshoe crab brain is an ingredient in the magical inks for writing shocking grasp and lightning bolt spells.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, via psionic/magic transparency, that psionic reflection should turn into spell reflection, I guess.  Do we have any Large/Huge crabs for ability comparison?  Just the apparatus?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Stormwrack's got us covered.  

Monstrous Crab, Large   
Large Vermin (Aquatic) 
Hit Dice: 6d8+9 (36 hp) 
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) 
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18 
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+17 
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d8+5) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+5, improved grab 
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low-light vision, scent, vermin traits 
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2 
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2 
Skills: Hide +0, Spot +4 
Feats: ToughnessB 
Environment: Temperate aquatic 
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5) 
Challenge Rating: 4 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 7–11 HD (Large) 
Level Adjustment: -  

Monstrous Crab, Huge 
Huge Vermin (Aquatic) 
12d8+27 (81 hp) 
Initiative: +0
30 ft. (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 22 (–2 size, +14 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 22 
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+28 
Attack: Claw +14 melee (2d6+7) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +14 melee (2d6+7) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. 
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d6+7, improved grab 
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low-light vision, scent, vermin traits 
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +4 
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 11, Con 14, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2 
Skills: Hide –4, Spot +4 
Feats: ToughnessB 
Environment: Temperate aquatic 
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–5) 
Challenge Rating: 7 
Treasure: e None 
Alignment: tral Always neutral 
Advancement: 13–23 HD (Huge) 
Level Adjustment: -


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

Not sure I'd rate this chap as a psionic monster.

As for converting its "reflect back all psionic attacks" I'm thinking that'd work better as reflecting mind-affecting attacks that regular Spell Resistance.

Stat-wise it looks like the Large Monstrous Crab is a good start.

Its got animal intelligence and spell use, so we'd need to improve its mental stats a bit. Its best SLA is _lightning bolt_, so I'm thinking Cha 13 or so?

Something like:

Giant Horseshoe Crab: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 13

It's got weaker claws than the Monstrous Crab but adds a powerful bite, which I'm thinking it also uses for its Constrict.

1d4 claws and 2d8 bite?

For the SLAs, how about _shocking grasp_ plus _lightning bolt_, both at CL5?

A literal translation of the frequencies would be a shocking grasp every minute and _lightning bolt_ every 4 yours but that seems a little ungainly, so I suppose:

*Spell-Like Abilities:* At-will—_shocking grasp_ (DC12), 3/day—_lightning bolt_ (DC14) at caster level 5, the save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

I generally agree with Cleon here.

On the reflection bit: were 1e psionics pretty much all mind-affecting?  If so, let's go with Cleon's suggestion.  If not, let's use something based on spell turning.


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## Cleon (May 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> I generally agree with Cleon here.
> 
> On the reflection bit: were 1e psionics pretty much all mind-affecting?  If so, let's go with Cleon's suggestion.  If not, let's use something based on spell turning.




After some rumination, I've got a couple more points to raise.

Firstly, ordinary horseshoe crabs crawl along the bottom, they don't swim. I've given the magical version a Swim Speed of 50 ft., but we may want to cut it out. Note the Monstrous Crab doesn't have a swim speed, but IIRC the AD&D Giant Crab did have a slow swim speed. Also, they're almost as fast as a human (11"), so I'd up the Crab's land speed to 30 ft.

Secondly, horseshoe crabs don't have long claws  like some regular crabs do. Their relatively short claws should have a  similar reach to a Monstrous Scorpion or Spider of the same size, or 5 feet for a Large individual.

Thirdly, are we making these things Amphibious? Ordinary horseshoe crabs can crawl onto the land for a while, so they ought to at least have Hold  Breath. I think we should leave them Amphibious.

Fourthly, they can burrow - but I'd add a note they can only do this through light soils, mud and sand.

Fifthly, I'm not so sure about using the standard Improved Grab & Constrict routine for them. The original monster doesn't have a constrict attack. That said, I would like to do something with the "On its underside the crab has a sucking mouth flanked by two crablike  claws. Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; all that a  crab seizes is passed here by its claws and then transferred forward  into the mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material." So how about using a Dire Ape's Rend - if it hits a victim with both claws it pushes it through the "crusher" for an extra 2d8+7 damage?

Seventhly and finally, I'm wondering whether we should change the SLAs to some kind of electricity-generating Supernatural Ability. It seems rather dim to be casting spells.

Putting all that together, we get something like the following. If you're OK with it we've only got the Feats, Skills and Challenge Rating to argue about:

*Horseshoe Crab, Giant*
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic) 
*Hit Dice:* 6d10+9 (42 hp) 
*Initiative:* +0
* Speed:* 30 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft., burrow 20 ft.
* Armor Class:* 18 (–1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18 
* Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+15
* Attack:* Claw +10 melee (1d4+5) 
* Full Attack:* 2 claws +10 melee (1d4+5) and bite +5 melee (2d8+2)
* Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. 
*Special Attacks:* Rend 2d8+7, spell-like abilities
* Special Qualities:* Amphibious, immunity to mind-affecting attacks, low-light vision, reflect mental attacks, scent, vermin-like
* Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2 
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 13
*Skills:* *9* Hide +, Spot + 
*Feats:* *3* plus Toughness (B) 
Environment: Temperate aquatic 
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–10) 
Challenge Rating: *?*
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 7–11 HD (Large); 12-18 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---

Combat

*Rend (Ex):* A giant horseshoe crab that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body crushes it between bony, grinding plates behind its mouth. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d8+7 points  of damage.


*Reflect Mental Attacks (Ex):* All mind-affecting attacks targeting a giant horseshoe crab are automatically turned back upon their original caster. Area effect attacks are not reflected. The attacker saves against the attack as normal.



_*Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):*_ At-will—_shocking grasp_ (DC12), 3/day—_lightning bolt_ (DC14)  at caster level 5, the save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 5, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



Cleon said:


> Firstly, ordinary horseshoe crabs crawl along the bottom, they don't swim. I've given the magical version a Swim Speed of 50 ft., but we may want to cut it out. Note the Monstrous Crab doesn't have a swim speed, but IIRC the AD&D Giant Crab did have a slow swim speed. Also, they're almost as fast as a human (11"), so I'd up the Crab's land speed to 30 ft.




Agreed to dropping swim speed and increasing land speed.



Cleon said:


> Secondly, horseshoe crabs don't have long claws  like some regular crabs do. Their relatively short claws should have a  similar reach to a Monstrous Scorpion or Spider of the same size, or 5 feet for a Large individual.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> Thirdly, are we making these things Amphibious? Ordinary horseshoe crabs can crawl onto the land for a while, so they ought to at least have Hold  Breath. I think we should leave them Amphibious.




Amphibious works for me.



Cleon said:


> Fourthly, they can burrow - but I'd add a note they can only do this through light soils, mud and sand.




We can note that in the flavor text, but I don't want to tinker with the ability.



Cleon said:


> Fifthly, I'm not so sure about using the standard Improved Grab & Constrict routine for them. The original monster doesn't have a constrict attack. That said, I would like to do something with the "On its underside the crab has a sucking mouth flanked by two crablike  claws. Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; all that a  crab seizes is passed here by its claws and then transferred forward  into the mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material." So how about using a Dire Ape's Rend - if it hits a victim with both claws it pushes it through the "crusher" for an extra 2d8+7 damage?




Sure, rend works here.



Cleon said:


> Seventhly and finally, I'm wondering whether we should change the SLAs to some kind of electricity-generating Supernatural Ability. It seems rather dim to be casting spells.




I've seen mindless creatures with SLAs, so it's not necessarily problematic.  Still, since they're both electricity effects, I could see rolling them into a Su ability.  It'll help the save DCs as they advance.  

Something like...

Electrical Strike (Su):  A giant horseshoe crab may make a melee touch attack to deal xd6 points of electricity damage. When delivering the jolt, it gains a +3 bonus on its attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).

Thrice per day, a giant horseshoe crab can generate enough of a charge to release a x-foot line of lightning that deals xd6 points of electricity damage to all creatures within the area (Reflex DC 14 half).  This otherwise functions like a lightning bolt spell.   The save DC is Charisma-based.  (We could change it to Con-based and lower Cha to a more reasonable number for its Int).


"Vermin-like" is probably unnecessary, since the vermin type really only gets them immunity to mind-affecting stuff (which these already have) and vulnerability to a very limited number of spells.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Agreed to dropping swim speed and increasing land speed.




Actually I'm OK with giving them a good swim speed, since these are magical arthropod monsters they could easily be better swimmers than their mundane kin.



Shade said:


> I've seen mindless creatures with SLAs, so it's not necessarily problematic.  Still, since they're both electricity effects, I could see rolling them into a Su ability.  It'll help the save DCs as they advance.
> 
> Something like...
> 
> ...




Yes that's pretty much what I was thinking of. 5d6 electrical for the touch or 6d6 for the bolt?

Constitution-based would be my preference. Drop the Charisma to 8?

Speaking of Constitution, Con 12 is looking a little low to me. Horseshoe crabs are tough survivors, so maybe increase it to Con 16?

I'm toying with the idea of it having a 1 round "recharge time" after  using its shocking touch to pay homage to the original's "one shock per 10 rounds". Even if it can shock once per round it does plenty of damage  with its claw/claw/bite (average 26 points if all hit), so it still has a  motive for resorting to melee.

I'd make the lightning a 120 foot line, like the spell.

We'd better add the "electrical strike" to its attack line.

Revising...

Electrical Strike (Su):  A giant horseshoe crab may make a melee touch  attack to deal 5d6 points of electricity damage. When delivering the  jolt, it gains a +3 bonus on its attack rolls if the opponent is wearing  metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the  like).

Thrice per day, a giant horseshoe crab can generate enough of a charge  to release a 120-foot line of lightning that deals 6d6 points of  electricity damage to all creatures within the area (Reflex DC 14 half _*DC 16 if we raise Con to 16*_).   This otherwise functions like a _lightning bolt_ spell.   The save DC is  Constitution-based.



Shade said:


> "Vermin-like" is probably unnecessary, since the vermin type really only gets them immunity to mind-affecting stuff (which these already have) and vulnerability to a very limited number of spells.




Yes, that's why I cut it out shortly after writing it.

...Oh I see, I cut it out of the combat entry but forgot to remove it from the SQ line. It's easy to do.


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## Shade (May 6, 2010)

All sounds good.  Updated.

I'd be OK with a recharge time, but I don't think it is necessary as many lesser electrical creatures (shocker lizard, electric eel) don't require one.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> All sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> I'd be OK with a recharge time, but I don't think it is necessary as many lesser electrical creatures (shocker lizard, electric eel) don't require one.




I'm fine with the no-recharge approach.

However, I feel the "When delivering the jolt" bit in the special attack's description serves little purpose. Should we cut it out?


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Agreed.  Extraneous text cut.



> (The crushing noise the crab makes while eating has earned it the nickname "chont.")




Any support for simply renaming these creatures "chonts"?  That leaves room for a non-magical giant horseshoe crab somewhere down the road.  Plus, it has a nice "chuul"-like vibe.



> Horseshoe crabs have three pairs of eyes: one set on the underside of its front rim, a large pair on the carapace, and a small hidden pair atop the abdomen. Thus, they can see the approach of creatures out to a 9" range (or the limit of sight in the surrounding waters, if less), and are rarely surprised. These eyes can distinguish movement and masses of color, but not images.




All-around vision?



> Chonts are immune to all mind-control spells and all cold and electrical attacks




It looks like we need to add immunity to cold and electricity to the SQ line.



> Chonts will always defend their smaller brethren if the latter are attacked nearby. Sailors report that these normally placid creatures occasionally attack and smash small craft, attacking in a group by ramming the boat with their armored snouts and then seizing creatures in the water.




Give 'em ramming like a leviathan or ocean strider?


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Any support for simply renaming these creatures "chonts"?  That leaves room for a non-magical giant horseshoe crab somewhere down the road.  Plus, it has a nice "chuul"-like vibe.




Good idea, Chont it is.



Shade said:


> All-around vision?




I wondered about including All-Around Vision but I also mused about giving them 60 foot tremorsense like Monstrous Spiders and Scorpions have. In the end I couldn't decide so left out both.

Real-world scorpions have a similar eye arrangement to Horseshoe crabs, and scorpions don't get All-Around Vision in their Monstrous D&D version. Furthermore, real Horseshoe crabs have poor eyesight, relying mostly on their other senses (so maybe tremorsense?).

However, as we're making these Chonts a "Magical Beast" that's no reason not to give them All-Around Vision instead of tremorsense.

Oh to heck with it, let's give them both.



Shade said:


> It looks like we need to add immunity to cold and electricity to the SQ line.




Oops, I thought I already had.



Shade said:


> Give 'em ramming like a leviathan or ocean strider?




Sure, sounds like a good fit.


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Updated.

The leviathan is Colossal, and an ocean strider is Huge.  We may need to tone this down for the Large chont...

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, an ocean strider can swim at up to quadruple speed (240 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the ocean strider must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+6 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the ocean strider can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15). Success means the creature takes 1d10 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.


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## Cleon (May 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> The leviathan is Colossal, and an ocean strider is Huge.  We may need to tone this down for the Large chont...




That looks basically OK.

I'd rather it be a full-round action like a regular charge rather than a  standard action.

We could cut the ramming damage a bit (to 2d6+Str?) but it does 2d8 with its bite, so having it do the same damage with its ram doesn't seem too far-fetched.

We can keep the break DCs the same. With its +5 Strength bonus an average Chont has a 5% chance of breaching a sailing ship or longboat, a 15% chance for a keelboat and a 30% for a rowboat. That seems acceptable.

Having a flat DC15 Reflex save seems a bit wiffy to me. A blow that would really rock a rowboat would presumably barely quiver a large galleon. Maybe make the DC 38 minus the Break DC? That'd make it Ref save to avoid a fall DC18 aboard a rowboat, keelboat DC15, sailing ship or longship DC 13, warship DC 11, or  galley DC 8. Of course, that is more fiddly than a flat DC15.

I don't like the 1d10 damage to passengers on the rammed vessel. I'd rather it be 1d6 damage, like a fall of less than 10 feet or a fall off a horse. 

Maybe allow a Tumble or Jump check to convert the damage into nonlethal, maybe even a Profession (sailor) check.

Modifying the Ocean Strider's version...

*Ramming (Ex):* As a full-round action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a  waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack  deals 2d8+5 [or 2d6+5] points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can  attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half  damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to  breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The  break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC  20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or  galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).  Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a  Reflex saving throw (DC 15 [or DC38 minus the vessel's break DC?]). Success means the creature takes 1d6  points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means  the creature is hurled overboard. The creatures can soften the impact and make the 1d6 damage nonlethal by succeeding at a DC15 Jump, [Profession (sailor)?] or Tumble check.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

The suggested break DC and damage revisions work for me, but I'd rather not modify the core ability which is shared among more than just those two creatures.  (In other words, stick with standard action, and drop the additional skill checks).

Thus...

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+5 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw.  Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> The suggested break DC and damage revisions work for me, but I'd rather not modify the core ability which is shared among more than just those two creatures.  (In other words, stick with standard action, and drop the additional skill checks).
> 
> Thus...
> 
> ...




That'll do.


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

This all works for me.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> This all works for me.




Sounds like we're agreed then.

So what does that leave us with.

We've got "tremorsense x" in the SQ line. Shall we make this 60 ft. like the Chelicerata in the SRD or drop it?

I think I'd rather drop it, since they've got All-Around Vision and there's no mention of them sensing vibrations in the description.

Skills, Feats and Challenge Rating need assigning.

Divide their skill points between Listen and Spot?

Listen 4 and Spot 5?

Maybe throw in a racial bonus to Spot checks?

Feats-wise I'm thinking Alertness (since they're good at spotting approaching foes) and Endurance (since Horseshoe Crabs are tough).

The other one should probably be something combat related - Power Attack? Weapon Focus (claws)? Ability Focus (electric strike)?

Oh, and shouldn't we put its +5 touch attack somewhere in the stats? Either add it in the Electrical Strike description or include its electrical strike in the Attack & Full Attack lines:

*Attack:* Claw +10 melee (1d4+5) or electric shock +5 touch (5d6 electricity)
* Full Attack:* 2 claws +10 melee (1d4+5) and bite +5 melee (2d8+2);  or electric shock +5 touch (5d6 electricity)


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

Probably a +2 or +4 racial to Spot.

Power Attack seems reasonable to me.

And yes to adding the touch attack to the attack lines.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Let's go with a +2 racial bonus.  I agree with all the rest.

Updated.

CR 4?



> SIZE: L (up to 25 ' long)




A chont is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with a +2 racial bonus.  I agree with all the rest.
> 
> Updated.




I think we'd better substitute "Chont" for most of the horseshoe crab(s) in the description. We should probably also rephrase the [The crushing noise the crab makes while eating has earned it the  nickname "chont."] bit too.

The second paragraph could also do with some cleaning up, and I'd like to make some mention of a horseshoe crab's shell.

How about:A chont is a magical giant horseshoe crab.  These armored predators roam  coastal waters and beaches, feeding on mollusks, worms, plants,  carrion, and anything else they can catch.

Like a regular horseshoe crab, a chont's body and limbs are covered by a thick, dome-shaped shell and carapace, so from above it resembles a helmet with a tail trailing after it.  Its tail is powerful and highly mobile, and is used as a prow when  burrowing through sand and to right an overturned crab. Horseshoe crabs have three pairs of eyes: one set on the underside of  its front rim, a  large pair on the carapace, and a small hidden pair atop the abdomen. 

On its underside a chont has a sucking mouth, flanked by two crablike claws.  Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; everything a chont  seizes is passed here by its claws, crushed and then transferred forward into the  mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material. (The name "chont" is due to the crushing  noise the creature makes while eating.)  Behind these mouthparts are five pairs of legs. The first four can be used as  pincers and have spurlike spikes to grip and break up food; the last  pair sport leaflike "wings" which aid in swimming and clear away mud  when the crab is burrowing. Behind these legs, under the second segment of  the carapace, are five pairs of gills with long flaps that keep water  moving over the gill membranes and aid in swimming.

Chonts come ashore on certain beaches at certain times to mate, the eggs they lay then hatch into marine larvae that slowly grow to full  size. Huge numbers of regular horseshoe crabs come ashore to breed at the same times and places. Chonts will always defend their smaller brethren if the latter are attacked.​


Shade said:


> CR 4?




Yes I guess so.



Shade said:


> A chont is x feet long and weighs x pounds




I feel 25 feet is rather too big for them. However it's "up to 25 feet", suggesting that's the upper limit of their Large size, and presumably this includes their tail. So I'm thinking a Large Chont is 13-25 feet long, including a 5-10 foot tail, and weighs 500-4000 pounds.

So I'm thinking something like this:A typical chont is 13 to 25 feet long, including a 5 to 10 foot long tail, and has a shell between 6 and 12 feet across. They weigh from 500 to 4000 pounds.​


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Good suggestions!

Updated.

What's left?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good suggestions!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> What's left?




It looks done except for one little niggle.

Under All-Around Vision it's got "A chont's many eyes give it a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks", while it's skill entry only has a +2 racial bonus to Spot.

Personally, I like the +4 to Spot and Search, so can we keep that and apply the changes to the skills?

*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +11, Search +4, Swim +13


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Nice catch, and yes, I agree.  Updated.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nice catch, and yes, I agree.  Updated.




I've just realized I've applied their Dex bonus to the touch attack, but under the RAW shouldn't they use their Strength bonus since it's a melee attack? 

That would make their electric shock a +10 melee touch.

Must be looking at too many incorporeal beasties with melee touch attacks.


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




They're done then!


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## freyar (May 19, 2010)

Agreed.  Chonts away!


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

*SUGO*
ORIGIN: Acheron
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2/-3
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 14
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 8
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 per attack
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Sucking (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to cold and acid; takes 1½ times damage from fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Very high
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral (evil tendencies)
SIZE: L (tentacles are 7-8’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 150
Attack/Defense Modes: A, C/G, I

All the marshes, bogs, swamps, slime, mud and quicksand in the world are spawned from Acheron, the Plane of Slime. As the River of sorrows passes hrough the Nine Hells, it becomes gradually wider and wider, until it becomes a vast, near-impenetrable, stinking bog: Acheron.

Lurking in the mud are horrible creatures called Sugos. Juiblex himself created them, but they turned against him and all other creatures of Chaos. They greedily devour the little bugs and large worms of Acheron, but would much rather seek greater prey. 

A Sugo appears as a flattish brown disc with a large red eye in the top center. Radiating from the sides of the disc are eight slimy, brown tentacles, each equipped with a large grey sucker cup at the end. Sugos blend in perfectly with the bog, and thus surprise opponents on a 1-4.

A Sugo will attempt to attach its suckers to several adventurers (each requires a successful “to hit” roll) and suck their flesh away. The Sugo will do 1-4 pts. damage per round, and will only remove its sucker if the victim is killed or if the tentacle is chopped off.

How to chop a tentacle off: Each time a hit at a specific place on a tentacle is to be made, the player must tell the DM he is hitting at that place. Each tentacle can absorb 8 pts. of damage, regardless of the hit points of the Sugo’s body. Each tentacle has an AC of -3 (because it is harder to aim at a specific point rather than the general creature). If the Sugo’s body takes its full hit points in damage, the creature will die regardless of the rules in this paragraph. These rules only apply when chopping a tentacle off.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #47 (1981).


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

OK, for starters...

Attack Modes
A. Psionic Blast
C. Ego Whip

Defense Modes
G. Thought Shield
I. Intellect Fortress

These equate to psi-like abilities of Ego Whip (2nd, save), Intellect Fortress (4th, no save), Psionic blast (3rd, save), and Thought Shield (2nd, no save).

Acheron is far different nowadays than described here.  Hades actually makes better sense based on their description.  Or we can simply state they are found anywhere along the River Styx.

For ability scores, Int is listed as "very high", which I'm assuming should be "very to high", meaning an Int in the 11-14 range.  
Here are the ability scores of some other 14 HD fiends:

Nalfeshnee (H): Str 25, Dex 13, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20
Nycaloth (L): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16
Gelugon (L): Str 23, Dex 21, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20

So maybe...
Str 20, Dex 21, Con 25, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Abilities are fine.  Hades would make sense, except for the LN alignment.  Not quite sure what to do about their habitat.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

I suppose Acheron can still work:



> As on all the lower planes, the River Styx flows through the top layer of Acheron, called Avalas. The Styx flows on many of Avalas's cubes--welling up from a crater on one cube to flow many miles, then leaking down into another crater, and reappearing on another cube. Sometimes the river takes a new course over a cube face, which can result in entire cities being washed away in a tide of forgetfulness and death.
> 
> Portals to other planes are fairly common. Usually, such gates appear in the mouths of the many tunnels that riddle most of Acheron's cubes.




That leaves room for some slimy cubes amidst the rust and iron.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, for starters...




Well I think it's stretching it a bit putting these in the "Psionic Monsters" since they don't have any disciplines or sciences. Plenty of AD&D monsters had Psionic Strength and Attack/Defence Modes.

Still, their on this thread so we might as well keep them.



Shade said:


> Acheron is far different nowadays than described here.  Hades actually makes better sense based on their description.  Or we can simply state they are found anywhere along the River Styx.




I was thinking the top layer of Carceri would suit them, since Othrys is filled with swamps and rivers.

Spreading them along the Styx makes the most sense to me, we could say they live in any swamp connected to the river. The Styx flows through all the 1st layers of the lower planes, so that covers a lot of territory.



Shade said:


> For ability scores, Int is listed as "very high", which I'm assuming should be "very to high", meaning an Int in the 11-14 range.
> Here are the ability scores of some other 14 HD fiends:
> 
> Nalfeshnee (H): Str 25, Dex 13, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20
> ...




Hmm, that Dex seems awful high for a blob, I'd rather have 16-17 or so.

Str could do with being higher, since they're grapplers.

Wisdom 10 doesn't feel right for a creature with psychic attacks, I'd rather it were higher so it has a respectable Will saves for a 14HD Outsider.

Maybe

Large Outsider
Hit Dice: 14d8+98 (161 hp)
Str 24, Dex 17, Con 25, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 16

It will need a +10 natural armour to get AC22 with that Dexterity, although we should probably be aiming for something more like AC30 (+18 natural) for an Outsider of that HD.

As for the alignment, they're created by a Demon Prince but have rebelled and turned Lawful, which is interesting. Giving them a neutral alignment component doesn't sit with me well though.

Maybe give them the Evil and Chaotic subtypes with an alignment of Always evil (often lawful)?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, LN (sometimes E) goes with Acheron, I think.  I could see distributing them along the Styx though.  Not sure I like the subtypes, though.

Stat boost is ok.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

They have "psionic ability: 150" which in 1e, was more than simply attack/defense modes.

I had originally proposed the High Dex/Low Str since they sounded more like "attachers" (like a stirge) than grapplers.  The whole "sucker cup"/drain mechanic sounds more like a stirge to me.  If you guys would prefer improved grab/constrict, I'll go for the changed scores though.  

I definitely do not want to associate the Chaotic subtype with a lawful alignment!  

Always evil (often lawful) works for me.  We can list their Enviroment as Acheron, but note in the flavor text that they can be found throughout the lower planes along the River Styx.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Hmmmm...



> A Sugo will attempt to attach its suckers to several adventurers (each requires a successful “to hit” roll) and suck their flesh away. The Sugo will do 1-4 pts. damage per round, and will only remove its sucker if the victim is killed or if the tentacle is chopped off.




Yeah, that does sound kind of like a touch attack/attach mechanic.  I'm tentatively for the attach version, but I'll let you guys sort that out, though.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> Yeah, that does sound kind of like a touch attack/attach mechanic.  I'm tentatively for the attach version, but I'll let you guys sort that out, though.




I'm OK with a touch and attach attack for the suckers.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

We should probably revise the attach mechanic so each tentacle is essentially it's own "stirge".  Can anyone think of a precedent for this?

Should we give it a swim speed, since it lives along the Styx?  If so, how much?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Can't think of a precedent, but it should probably work.  Kind of like octopus tentacles can each grapple.  Odd combination, but it seems ok.

I vote for a swim speed, but only 20 or 30 ft.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Here's something from the _Fiend Folio_ that might help...

Attach (Ex): If an ironmaw hits with a tendril attack, the tendril, in addition to dealing normal damage, attaches to the opponent's body. A tendril draws a stuck opponent 10 feet closer in each subsequent round (no attack of opportunity) unless the opponent breaks free, which requires an Escape Artist check (DC 25) or a Strength check (DC 26). An ironmaw can draw in a creature within 15 feet of itself and bite with a +4 attack bonus in that round. An ironmaw can draw a creature into its space and attempt to engulf it as well.

A tendril can be severed by a single attack with a slashing weapon (made as an attempt to sunder a weapon) dealing at least 13 points of damage.

Tendrils (Ex): An ironmaw can attack with its four tendrils from up to 60 feet away. Anyone struck by a tendril takes damage, loses blood, may suffer illness, and risks being drawn toward the ironmaw's trunk.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Wow, you're good at finding those special abilities.  Yes, that's probably exactly what we want, with appropriate name and additional ability changes.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm unsure where the 13 hp damage to sever came from--it appears arbitrary.

Adapting for our purposes...

Attach (Ex): If a sugo hits with a sucker-tentacle attack, the sucker-tentacles, in addition to dealing normal damage, attaches to the opponent's body. A sucker-tentacle can be severed by a single attack with a slashing weapon (made as an attempt to sunder a weapon) dealing at least x points of damage.

Blood Drain (Ex): A sugo drains blood in any round when it begins its turn with at least one sucker-tentacle attached to a victim.  This blood drain deals 1dx points of Constitution damage per sucker-tentacle attached. Once it has dealt x points of Constitution damage, it detaches and slithers off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the sugo's appetite has been sated, the sugo detaches and seeks a new target.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

The sugos don't seem to "get full" according to the original text, so let's just chop the bit about slithering off to digest.  

10 hp damage to sever?  16 since it's 1/10 of the sugo's hp?  Is the damage or half the damage dealt to the sugo?

1d3 Con per tentacle?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated.

For the psionics, its power level is 3/4 of that of an intellect devourer.  In 3.5, intellect devourers have psi-like abilities with a manifester level of 7th.  They have a few powers beyond those that were attack/defense modes in 1e.  

I'd propose adding a few additional powers that fit its theme, and setting manifester level to 5th or 6th.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

That sounds fair.  I'm no psionics expert, so I'll await your suggestions.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Grip of iron seems a perfect fit.

Psionic modify memory would be a nice tie-in to the River Styx.  So would id insinuation.

Chameleon could tie in with this...



> Sugos blend in perfectly with the bog, and thus surprise opponents on a 1-4.




...and/or give it a racial bonus on Hide checks in marsh terrain.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Those 4 powers sound good.  I think I prefer chameleon to the racial bonus on Hide, just because of the psionic flavor, but I guess a small racial bonus is ok, too.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> The sugos don't seem to "get full" according to the original text, so let's just chop the bit about slithering off to digest.




Sounds reasonable.



freyar said:


> 10 hp damage to sever?  16 since it's 1/10 of the sugo's hp?  Is the damage or half the damage dealt to the sugo?




16 hit points per tentacle would be my preference, since they've got body HP between a giant squid and a kraken I'd think their tentacle HP should be inbetween to. Might as well have them take half damage from severed tentacles.



freyar said:


> 1d3 Con per tentacle?




That seems about right. It'll quickly add up since they've got multiple attacks.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Grip of iron seems a perfect fit.
> 
> Psionic modify memory would be a nice tie-in to the River Styx.  So would id insinuation.
> 
> ...




Maybe add _concealing amorpha _(*greater* or *regular*) to help it avoid attacks?

I'm also thinking _*strength of my enemy*_ so it can suck out Str points and add them to its own while doing Con damage.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

How about...

Psi-Like Abilities: At will—chameleon, ego whip (2d4 Cha, DC 17)*, grip of iron (+2 enhancement bonus)*, thought shield (5 rounds, power resistance 17)*; 3/day—concealing amorpha, id insinuation (3 targets, DC 17)*, psionic blast (DC 16), strength of my enemy (+2 maximum enhancement bonus)*; 1/day—greater concealing amorpha, intellect fortress. Manifester level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the sugo's manifester level.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about...
> 
> Psi-Like Abilities: At will—chameleon, ego whip (2d4 Cha, DC 17)*, grip of iron (+2 enhancement bonus)*, thought shield (5 rounds, power resistance 17)*; 3/day—concealing amorpha, id insinuation (3 targets, DC 17)*, psionic blast (DC 16), strength of my enemy (+2 maximum enhancement bonus)*; 1/day—greater concealing amorpha, intellect fortress. Manifester level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> *Includes augmentation for the sugo's manifester level.




The power selection looks good.

The manifester level seems a bit low for a 14HD Outsider though. Their highest level power is 4th level (_intellect fortress_) which requires a 7th lvl Psion or 8th level Wilder, so I'd prefer a higher ML.

Manifester level 7th (half HD)?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

Sounds reasonable.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds reasonable.




Good!

Shall we talk skills and feats then. They're ambushers, so Hide and Move Silently are obvious choices. Spot and Listen to find prey. Escape Artist also seems appropriate.

That leaves four. Picking some of a Kraken's skills seems appropriate:

*Kraken:* Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge  (geography), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival (following tracks), Swim, Use Magic Device

They don't seem to negotiate with folk and they don't collect treasure, so Use Magic Device would seem to be out. That just leaves Intimidate, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature) and Survival.

I'd suggest giving them Knowledge (the planes) instead of Knowledge (geography) since they are found all over the lower planes.

That gives us:

*Sugo Skill Ranks #1:* Escape Artist 17, Hide 17, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (nature) 17, Knowledge  (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Spot 17,  Survival 17, Swim 0

The Survival ranks seem unnecessarily high, so we could give them Knowledge (geography) and shift some points into it, but that skill doesn't feel appropriate to me.

Alternatively, we could split the Survival ranks between Search and Survival.

*Sugo Skill Ranks #2:* Escape Artist 17, Hide 17, Intimidate 17,  Knowledge (nature) 17, Knowledge  (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 8, Spot 17,  Survival 9 (following tracks), Swim 0

I like option #2 better.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

Swap the Knowledge (nature) ranks for Con, as these guys are psionic manifesters.  In addition to manifesting defensively, psionic users gain other benefits from Concentration.  I'd drop Survival altogether, unless we give 'em track.  I'd like to see some ranks in Autohypnosis (and I'd recommend a straight swap out of Survival if no Track feat).  

Proposed modification of Option #2...

Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 9, Escape Artist 17, Hide 17, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 8, Spot 17

...or, if Track feat taken...

Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 9, Escape Artist 8, Hide 17, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 8, Spot 17, Survival 9

I'd be fine with reallocating the Escape Artist ranks, as it doesn't really need that skill.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't really see much call in the description for Track, and I agree that we don't need Escape Artist, so how about Autohypnosis, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Spot, all at 17 ranks?


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

Those skills appeal to me, and I agree to the increased manifester level.

I'll need to update the augmentations based on the increased manifester level, but I'm too tired right now.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Those skills appeal to me, and I agree to the increased manifester level.
> 
> I'll need to update the augmentations based on the increased manifester level, but I'm too tired right now.




While I am happy to drop Survival and Track I'd like to keep Escape Artist, they seem very much like octopodes to me: slimy elusive creatures able to wriggle free from bonds and squeeze through tight spaces.

How about we give them an octopus's +10 racial bonus to Escape Artist and cutting its ranks in Escape Artist by ten, which we transfer to Concentration and Search?

Modifying Shade's modified #2

Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 14, Escape Artist 7, Hide 17, Intimidate  17, Knowledge (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 13, Spot 17


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

What if we give it a racial bonus to Escape Artist for being slimy but no ranks, since they seem kind of like apex predators without much practice escaping things?


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

That works for me.  My issue with Escape Artist is that they'll have little use for it.  The most common use is escaping from a grapple or pin, wherein their grapple modifier will be a superior option.  "Tight space" is probably the only other issue they'd face much.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we give it a racial bonus to Escape Artist for being slimy but no ranks, since they seem kind of like apex predators without much practice escaping things?






Shade said:


> That works for me.  My issue with Escape Artist is  that they'll have little use for it.  The most common use is escaping  from a grapple or pin, wherein their grapple modifier will be a superior  option.  "Tight space" is probably the only other issue they'd face  much.




I just knew you two were going to say that.

Anyhow, I'm alright with just the +10 racial bonus to Escape Artist.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I just knew you two were going to say that.




You must be psychic!  

Speaking of skills, I'd assumed we'd given these things a swim speed, but as it stands, the thing will drown as soon as it enters the River Styx!

Swim speed equal to land speed, or less?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

They're pretty durn fast.  How about a 30 ft swim speed?


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with Shade, Swim 50 ft. to match their land speed.

Come to think of it, we'd better make these Aquatic and Amphibious.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Come to think of it, we'd better make these Aquatic and Amphibious.




Point taken.  

Feats: 5
Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (sucker-tentacle), Iron Will (this guy needs it!), Hostile Mind, Mental Leap?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2010)

Unfortunately, they can't take Hostile Mind because they have psi-like abilities.  Maybe Hold the Line or just Power Attack?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Unfortunately, they can't take Hostile Mind because they have psi-like abilities.  Maybe Hold the Line or just Power Attack?




Power Attack doesn't feel quite right to me.

I'd prefer Stand Still over Hold the Line.

Oh, and I don't like Mental Leap.

Firstly, they don't sound like jumpers to me. Secondly, per the RAW a creature must have at least one psionic power  points to attain a psionic focus. The sugo has Psi-like abilities but we haven't given it any power points, so how does it expend a psionic power to make a Mental Leap?


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah, the whole psionic focus bit is a bit confusing.  I found a passage that seemed to imply that monsters with psi-like abilities are considered to be psionically focused, but upon a re-read I think I was mistaken.

There is this, though:



> Creatures with access to psi-like abilities can use the feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.
> 
> These feats can be used only on psi-like abilities that do not have increased effects due to augmentation. Furthermore, the creature can empower only a psi-like ability with a level less than or equal to half its manifester level (round down) minus 2, and can quicken only a psi-like ability with a level less than or equal to half its manifester level (round down) minus 4. For example, a creature that uses its psi-like abilities as an 8th-level manifester can empower only psi-like abilities that duplicate powers of 2nd level or lower and cannot quicken any of its psi-like abilities.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, the whole psionic focus bit is a bit confusing.  I found a passage that seemed to imply that monsters with psi-like abilities are considered to be psionically focused, but upon a re-read I think I was mistaken.
> 
> There is this, though:




Hmm, it's 7th level manifestation means it can only empower a 1st level power which does not have increased effects due to augmentation? It doesn't seem to have any such power.

For that matter, how many psionic powers with variable effect do not have augmentation? I can't think of any offhand.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Well, Stand Still is a good choice.  Since we can't come up with much else and because they "lurk in the mud," how about Skill Focus (Hide)?


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, Stand Still is a good choice.  Since we can't come up with much else and because they "lurk in the mud," how about Skill Focus (Hide)?




I'd rather go for a racial bonus on Hide than spend a feat on it.

Maybe something not directly useful in combat but thematically appropriate, like Endurance, Rapid Metabolism or Track?


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2010)

Rapid Metabolism would be fine.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Updated.

How much of a racial bonus shall we apply to Hide?  Should it increase while immobile?


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> How much of a racial bonus shall we apply to Hide?  Should it increase while immobile?




The AD&D version has a 4 in 6 chance of surprise, suggesting they're pretty good at it.

I was wondering about giving them an additional bonus when submerged, like a crocodile gets, although they've already got a pretty impressive bonus.

Oh heck, why not. Something like:

*A sugo gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in swampy terrain. Further, a sugo can submerge itself in mud or water until only its eye is left showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 10-11?

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 15-20 HD (Large); 21-39 HD (Huge); 40-42 HD (Gargantuan)?
Most demons get Huge at 15-20 HD.  I thought it would be fun to allow these to get to Gargantuan.

A sugo is x feet long/in diameter, with tentacles reaching lengths of 7 to 8 feet. A typical specimen weighs x pounds. 

Sugos speak Abyssal?


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary?
> 
> ...




Solitary and no treasure are good.

Challenge Rating 11 seems about right. I suspect you'd have to playtest one of these a bit to tell how nasty they really are.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 15-20 HD (Large); 21-39 HD (Huge);  40-42 HD (Gargantuan)?
> Most demons get Huge at 15-20 HD.  I thought it would be fun to allow  these to get to Gargantuan.




I like the notion of them Advancing to Gargantuan but would prefer a bit more HD spread at that size. 

Maybe give them the same HD maximum as a Kraken?

15-20 HD (Large); 21-40 HD (Huge);  41-60 HD (Gargantuan)



Shade said:


> A sugo is x feet long/in diameter, with tentacles reaching lengths of 7  to 8 feet. A typical specimen weighs x pounds.
> 
> Sugos speak Abyssal?




I'd have them speak Infernal as well as Abyssal, since they've turned to Law and their isn't an SRD Lawful Outsider language.

As for their size, we have no clue as to how big their disc-shaped body is. They're the only one of the monsters in Dragon 47's "Creatures From Elsewhere" article that lacks an illustration. So for want of anything better shall we say their bodies are 5-7 feet in diameter and a foot to a cubit thick, with 7-8 foot tentacles about 6 inches thick. A back of an envelope calculation suggests such a creature should weigh somewhere around 1500-3000 pounds.

That would give a description something like:
_A single red eye glares from the center of a flattened disc of mud-brown flesh with eight tentacles radiating around its rim. Each tentacle is longer than a man and ends in a grey sucker cup._

A typical sugo has a body 5 to 7 feet in diameter and tentacles 7 or 8 foot long, it weighs around 1500 to 3000 pounds.​


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




Hmm, the first sentence of tactics "Sugos lie buried in the mud until prey approaches, then seek to attach  as many sucker-tentacles as possible, through which they drain a victim  dry of blood." reads a bit odd.

I'd suggest either "Sugos lie buried in the mud until prey approaches, then seek to attach  as many sucker-tentacles as possible, through which they drain their victims  dry of blood." or  "Sugos lie buried in the mud until prey approaches, then seek to attach  as many sucker-tentacles as possible to drain their victims  dry of blood."?

Also, shouldn't the Attach's "If a sugo hits with a sucker-tentacle attack, the sucker-tentacles," have a singular "sucker-tentacle" for both instances?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Revised.

Should we offer up a non-psionic variant underbar?


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Revised.
> 
> Should we offer up a non-psionic variant underbar?




If you like. Just need to change the PLAs to SLAs.

Psi-Like Abilities: At will—chameleon, ego whip (2d4 Cha, DC 17)*, grip  of iron (+2 enhancement bonus)*, thought shield (6 rounds, power  resistance 18)*; 3/day—concealing amorpha, id insinuation (3 targets, DC  17)*, psionic blast (3 rounds, DC 16)*, strength of my enemy (+2  maximum enhancement bonus)*; 1/day—greater concealing amorpha, intellect  fortress (4 rounds)*. Manifester level 7th. The save DCs are  Charisma-based.

_blur_, _invisibility_ and _greater invisibility_ instead of chameleon, concealing amorpha and greater concealing amorpha?

_vampiric touch_ instead of _strength of my enemy_?

Not sure what to substitute for the Psionic attack/defense modes.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

We don't have to provide replacements for each power.  We can just capture a similar theme.

So, how about...

Soell-Like Abilities: At will—blur, lesser confusion (DC 14); 3/day—confusion (DC 17), invisibility (self only), vampiric touch; 1/day—greater invisibility (self only), spell resistance. Caster level 7th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Mind blast usually takes the place of psionic blast, but is generally only used on illithid-related creatures.  Borrow it, or leave it off?

We'll also need to replace Autohypnosis ranks and Rapid Metabolism.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> We don't have to provide replacements for each power.  We can just capture a similar theme.
> 
> So, how about...
> 
> ...




The spells look good.

How about giving it _fear_ as a SLA to substitute for _mind blast_?

Endurance would seem the clostest base feat match to Rapid Metabolism.

Figuring out a substitute for Autohypnosis is a bit trickier. I'm tempted to switch those ranks to Knowledge (religion) and imply that's why it switched to Lawfulness...


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Fear is a good replacement.    Endurance, too.

I noticed it already has inherent spell resistance, so how about spell immunity or globe of invulnerability rather than spell resistance 1/day?

Hmm...I'm not sure I like the idea of the finding religion.  How about Survival?


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fear is a good replacement.    Endurance, too.
> 
> I noticed it already has inherent spell resistance, so how about spell immunity or globe of invulnerability rather than spell resistance 1/day?
> 
> Hmm...I'm not sure I like the idea of the finding religion.  How about Survival?




It doesn't have a very high CL, so the 6th level standard _globe of  invulnerability_ feels a bit too powerful. 

I'd go for Survival and _lesser globe of invulnerability_.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2010)

And I'll agree to all that, too.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Updated.  Look good?


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2010)

I think it's done!


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think it's done!




Weren't we changing Stand Still to some other feat, since their Attach SA makes it rather redundant?


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

You prefered Stand Still over Hold the Line upthread.  But perhaps you have a point.  Power Attack?


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Power Attack doesn't feel right here, but I'm fine with Hold the Line.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> You prefered Stand Still over Hold the Line upthread.  But perhaps you have a point.  Power Attack?






Shade said:


> Power Attack doesn't feel right here, but I'm fine  with Hold the Line.




I think I was getting the two feats mixed up.

I like Hold the Line for them. Let's them sucker-punch any fools who try to charge them.

Shall we swap them over and call it a day?

EDIT: Oh yes there's a typo in the Non-Psionic Sugo - "S*o*ell-Like Abilities" instead of "Spell-Like Abilities".


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds good to me.




So is the Sugo ready to slip back into the Stygian slime?


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Fixed, and I do believe we can allow them to return to the slime.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

These should prove difficult...

*Flard*
ORIGIN: Nirvana
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 0”
HIT DICE: 12
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: A x 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Cold, fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
SIZE: L (infinite height)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 300
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Flards were created by a now-extinct race of humanoids for the sole purpose of answering questions. Flards are extremely old, and spend most of their time dormant, gathering information. All attacks on an unawakened Flard will be turned back against the attacker. Flards are never discovered awake, Each Flard has a specific name which triggers it awake when spoken. These names can only be found out through arduous research in the oldest and rarest documents (which are certainly not available on the Prime Material Plane). Another er Flard’s name is the only thing a Flard is not likely to know (2% chance). If the party speaks the Flard’s name it will awaken and will answer one question with 100% accuracy. The Flard will then sleep for one thousand years.

Flards will, of course, know everything there is to know about the party, so it is never surprised in battle (it knew the party’s intentions previously). Flards have two attacks: The first is a cone of cold (6” long with a 3” base) in any direction, and the alternate one is fear (as a wand) in a 6” radius, which can be used whenever the Flard desires, Fire does double damage to a Flard, and cold does half damage.

Flards cannot go to sleep once they have been awakened unless they are asked a question, so in all likelihood they will attack a party which is not quick with its query.

A Flard is considered Non-intelligent in dormant state, and of Godlike intelligence when awake. All spells in existence higher than 3rd level did not exist when Flards were created, so only spells of 3rd level and below will affect Flards. The following lower-level spells also have no effect:  Fireball, Burning Hands, and all spells that were obviously created by a character (they have a name like “Bigby” or Tensor” attached as a possessive).

A Flard’s treasure is stored inside its body, and the body can only be opened (while the Flard is still living) by the Flard itself. All magic items in the treasure are considered to be usable by the Flard if it wishes (e.g. if it had a Wand of Fireballs it could shoot fireballs at the party; if it had a Ring of Invisibility it would be invisible, etc.).
Flards are never encountered as wandering monsters, and should only be placed by the DM in hard-to-get-at places in Nirvana. A quest for a Flard would not be unusual.

Description: Flards appear as towering pillars of pure white marble with a veined, pink marble base. The opening to their treasure cache should be treated as a secret door (if the Flard is killed). Flards have infinite height.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #47 (1981).


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

So...Construct?


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 21, 2010)

They're one heck of an intelligent (if single-minded) race of constructs to me. They have an even narrower mandate than inevitables.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> They're one heck of an intelligent (if single-minded) race of constructs to me. They have an even narrower mandate than inevitables.




Oh I remember these. They're more a plot device than a monster.

It's not as bad as it looks at first, since most of its SAs are pretty straightforward:

cone of cold (use the spell or a breath weapon?)
fear (as the spell)
immunity to high-level spells (which is a particularly mean idea)
internal storage
some kind of "use internal magic items" ability
cold resistance
vulnerability to fire

The main tricky bits are their omniscience, infinite height and "reflect all attacks when asleep". It's not that they're all that difficult to convert, but I'm not sure whether we should keep them as is - or their "sleep for a thousand years after answering a question" trick, which would seem to be rather counterproductive for a creature specifically created to answer queries.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

I vote for "breath weapon" for the cone of cold, and agree to dropping/revising the "sleep for a thousand years after answering".   

The infinite height should probably be changed to just make them seem infinitily tall, but stick with a standard space/reach.

Should Str be "-" or 10, since they really can't move or physically manipulate objects.  I'm leaning toward 10, on the off chance someone uses an attack against them that requires an opposed Str check (good luck with that, though ).


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> I vote for "breath weapon" for the cone of cold, and agree to dropping/revising the "sleep for a thousand years after answering".




Suits me.



Shade said:


> The infinite height should probably be changed to just make them seem infinitily tall, but stick with a standard space/reach.




I was thinking we could give them some kind of spatial distortion ability so that no matter how much you climb/fly up them you never reach the top.



Shade said:


> Should Str be "-" or 10, since they really can't move or physically manipulate objects.  I'm leaning toward 10, on the off chance someone uses an attack against them that requires an opposed Str check (good luck with that, though ).




I'd give them a Str score. They keep treasure inside themselves, so they presumably can pull it into their bodies somhow. Maybe they've got some kind of marble tongue?

They can answer questions, so do they have voices or are they telepathic?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking we could give them some kind of spatial distortion ability so that no matter how much you climb/fly up them you never reach the top.




That might be fun.  

We should probably make 'em immune to bull rush, trip, etc. (even though it will be nearly impossible for anyone to actually succeed against something that size).



Cleon said:


> I'd give them a Str score. They keep treasure inside themselves, so they presumably can pull it into their bodies somhow. Maybe they've got some kind of marble tongue?




I'm not sure about the tongue, but I'm OK with Str 10.



Cleon said:


> They can answer questions, so do they have voices or are they telepathic?




I'm guessing telpathic, but I supposed they could do both.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's try a modified version of the epic spell reflection. So all named spells are also useless against it?

6" cone of cold translate to how many feet?

Should they have an extradimensional space in their insides that functions like a _bag of holding_ or are they voluminous enough to make it superfluous? (There's no diameter mentioned, 10 feet across perhaps?) I agree with the Str 10 score.

The spire in the center of the Outlands is infinitely high, right, so if we can find some flavor text for that and Sigil (Planar Handbook?) we can use that.


----------



## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's not forget their "attack/defense modes: all/all."  

I'll agree with everything said so far.  I think epic spell reflection (or variant) is good for the dormant state, but we should stick to a version of immunity to magic for the awake state.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Let's try a modified version of the epic spell reflection. So all named spells are also useless against it?
> 
> 6" cone of cold translate to how many feet?




That's a 60 foot cone.



RavinRay said:


> Should they have an extradimensional space in their insides that functions like a _bag of holding_ or are they voluminous enough to make it superfluous? (There's no diameter mentioned, 10 feet across perhaps?) I agree with the Str 10 score.




I think they just have a regular hollow interior. Once you kill one you can smash it open to steal its treasure, which I think suggests the cavity is not extradimensional.



RavinRay said:


> The spire in the center of the Outlands is infinitely high, right, so if we can find some flavor text for that and Sigil (Planar Handbook?) we can use that.




Hmm, maybe that spire is a Flard, just nobody knows its name?


----------



## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Let's hammer out the basics before proceeding further with the special abilities.

Colossal Construct (Extraplanar)?

Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, and ridiculously high mental scores?   Maybe around 30in all 3, like the greater archfiends and celestial paragons?

The Hit Dice might need a boost to better fit their size and powers.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's hammer out the basics before proceeding further with the special abilities.
> 
> Colossal Construct (Extraplanar)?
> 
> ...




I'd give them superb Intelligence and Wisdom but keep their Charisma down.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 23, 2010)

Cleon's lower Cha score makes sense to me; they're not exactly personable entities.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

That works.  So Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, Int 31, Wis 30, Cha 11?

Boost HD?  12 HD is pathetic for a creature of this size.  A Huge stone golem has at the very minimum 22 HD, and these guys are Colossal.

The Gargantuan Blackstone Gigant starts at 32 HD, and has 55 HD at Colossal.

A stone colossus has 64 HD.


----------



## RavinRay (Jul 25, 2010)

50+ HD should work. Though not given epic rules, these creatures easily rank among the heavy hitters.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works.  So Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, Int 31, Wis 30, Cha 11?
> 
> Boost HD?  12 HD is pathetic for a creature of this size.  A Huge stone golem has at the very minimum 22 HD, and these guys are Colossal.
> 
> ...




I'm not convinced they need to be Colossal. They may be "infinitely tall" but I'd consider that a special effect rather than a scaling measure.

Considering their base size could be a more useful approach.

Unfortunately there are no base dimensions listed in the text. The Flard's illustration in _Dragon 47_ show a base I'd guesstimate to be about 10-feet by 3-feet, which could easily be Large in 3E terms.

Of course, the illustration might have nothing to do with how big the author envisioned these creatures.


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

I feel the "inifinitely tall" power will work best with Colossal, since we won't have to worry about size category effects.

Freyar, care to cast your vote?


----------



## freyar (Jul 27, 2010)

Go Colossal!  We don't get to use that enough!


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Go Colossal!  We don't get to use that enough!




Make it Colossal if you like. The original was 1E, which only has one size category above medium.

50+ HD still seems excessive though, I was thinking more just doubling the original's to 24 HD.


----------



## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

How about 32 so it's at least on par with the blackstone gigant?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2010)

Ok, let's compromise at 32HD.


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, let's compromise at 32HD.




I'd prefer 36 HD, since it's triple the original.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

36 HD works.  Added to Homebrews.

It gets all of the following psi-like abilities based off attack/defense modes alone:
Ego Whip (2nd, save)
Empty Mind (1st, no save)
Id Insinuation (2nd, save)
Intellect Fortress (4th, no save)
Mental Barrier (3rd, no save)
Mind Thrust (1st, save)
Psionic blast (3rd, save)
Psychic Crush (5th, save)
Thought Shield (2nd, no save)
Tower of Iron Will (5th, save [harmless])

We'll need to determine which are at will, 1/day, 3/day, etc.

It has a pretty potent psionic power level for 1e.  Should we give it additional psi-like abilities, or make it an innate psion?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> 36 HD works.  Added to Homebrews.
> 
> It gets all of the following psi-like abilities based off attack/defense modes alone:
> Ego Whip (2nd, save)
> ...




Give it some of the Seer Discipline's psionic powers?


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

Even though I think there are a lot of critters out there that would benefit from innate manifestation or casting and don't have it, I get the feeling that it makes more sense for these to have extra psi-likes.  They don't seem like they're going to advance much.


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

In that case, Seer powers make good sense as PSAs.

Any additional psi-like abilities?


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## RavinRay (Jul 30, 2010)

The clairsentience powers fit its knowledge portfolio; do you think it deserves minor telekinetic PSAs for manipulating small objects?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

How about this?

At will: control object, destiny dissonance, escape detection, precognition, clairvoyant sense, ego whip, empty mind, id insinuation, mind thrust, object reading, sensitivity to psychic impressions, thought shield

3/day: clairtangent hand, fate link, intellect fortress, mental barrier, psionic blast, remote viewing, second chance, telekinetic force

1/day:  fate of one, greater precognition, hypercognition, psychic crush, tower of iron will

1/week:  metafaculty


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

Works for me, but I'll let someone with more psionics experience comment.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about this?
> 
> At will: control object, destiny dissonance, escape detection, precognition, clairvoyant sense, ego whip, empty mind, id insinuation, mind thrust, object reading, sensitivity to psychic impressions, thought shield
> 
> ...




Those look good to me.

The _metafaculty_ makes a handy explanation for how it can answer that question!


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 2, 2010)

I concur with Cleon.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> I concur with Cleon.




What shall we do for skills.

With Int 31 they get eighteen maxed-out skills!

Considering their purpose, we could max-out Appraise, Decipher Script and all ten Knowledge skills.

They could use Concentration and Sense Motive too for interacting with their clients.

That's fourteen skills.

Spellcraft to round out their magical knowledge?

They swallow and wield magical items, suggesting Use Magic Device.

Diplomacy?

Spot for the last skill?

*Skills:* Appraise, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana, architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility and royalty, religion, the planes), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device *all at 39 ranks*?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

That would work for me, though we can always pilfer a few ranks here and there if we need to.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

I screwed up in Homebrews, incorrectly listing them as Outsiders rather than Constructs.  Thus, they have 6 fewer skills.

I think all the listed skills are necessary, except Diplomacy and Spot, and probably Spellcraft.  Re-reading the original text, it doesn't imply that they are very diplomatic or observant, and since they don't actually cast spells, Spellcraft isn't greatly useful.  That means not all skills will have max ranks (which is fine).   Let's max out all 10 knowledge skills, leaving 78 ranks to divvy between the remaining four skills.  Concentration need only be high enough to allow them to cast defensively without risk of attacks (24 ranks should suffice).  For the remainder, Appraise 10, Decipher Script 15, Sense Motive 14, Use Magic Device 15?


Manifester level 20th?  Or equal to Hit Dice?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Your proposed skill fixes work for me.

Equal to HD for me.  They seem fairly epic to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> I screwed up in Homebrews, incorrectly listing them as Outsiders rather than Constructs.  Thus, they have 6 fewer skills.
> 
> I think all the listed skills are necessary, except Diplomacy and Spot, and probably Spellcraft.  Re-reading the original text, it doesn't imply that they are very diplomatic or observant, and since they don't actually cast spells, Spellcraft isn't greatly useful.  That means not all skills will have max ranks (which is fine).   Let's max out all 10 knowledge skills, leaving 78 ranks to divvy between the remaining four skills.  Concentration need only be high enough to allow them to cast defensively without risk of attacks (24 ranks should suffice).  For the remainder, Appraise 10, Decipher Script 15, Sense Motive 14, Use Magic Device 15?




Those skills suit me.



Shade said:


> Manifester level 20th?  Or equal to Hit Dice?




36th level seems too high. I'd be content with 20th or 24th.


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

24th feels odd.  Let's just go with 20th then.  It's probably easier for figuring out augmentations, anyway.  

Updated.



> Flards have two attacks: The first is a cone of cold (6” long with a 3” base) in any direction, and the alternate one is fear (as a wand) in a 6” radius, which can be used whenever the Flard desires.




Cone of Cold (Su): 60-foot cone, once per round, damage xdx cold, Reflex DC 28 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Fear Aura (Su): A flard can radiate a 60-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 28 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 20th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same flard's aura for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Do those look OK?

Feats: 13 (6 can be epic)
Epic Skill Focus (for multiple Knowledge skills), Force of Will, Iron Will,


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Cone of Cold (Su): 60-foot cone, once per round, damage xdx cold, Reflex DC 28 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Fear Aura (Su): A flard can radiate a 60-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 28 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 20th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same flard's aura for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Do those look OK?




Those look OK. 20d6 cold damage for the former attack?



Shade said:


> Feats: 13 (6 can be epic)
> Epic Skill Focus (for multiple Knowledge skills), Force of Will, Iron Will,




It doesn't have enough epic feats for Epic Skill Focus in all ten Knowledge skills ... unless we make them bonus feats.

I'd be just as happy giving them a +10 racial bonus to all Knowledge Skills though.

Hmm, here are some possibilities:

*Standard Feats*
Improved Initiative
Iron Will

*Divine Feats*
Eyes In The Back Of Your Head
Jack Of All Trades

*Epic Feats*
Epic Reflexes
Epic Toughness
Epic Will
Epic Skill Focus (all) (bonus) or +10 racial
Superior Initiative

*Monster Feats*
Quicken Spell-Like Ability

*Psionic Feats*
Force of Will
Mental Resistance
Power Penetration
Greater Power Penetration

That's 13 feats, assuming we make the ESF bonus feats.


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

I'd rather go for the +10 racial bonus on Knowledge, rather than giving it a bunch of bonus feats.

I'm glad you brought up Mental Resistance...I'd considered it as well, then realized these should really have DR x/adamantine like most stone constructs.  Considering their power level, I'd recommend 20/adamantine or damage reduction 15/epic and adamantine.

Most of the other feats look good.  Blind-Fight and Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius might also be a nice fit.  Since Iron Will and Epic Will don't stack, I'd probably just go with one or another (since Force of Will requires Iron Will, I'd probably go with that).


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd rather go for the +10 racial bonus on Knowledge, rather than giving it a bunch of bonus feats.




I'd prefer to give it a racial bonus in Knowledge as well.



Shade said:


> I'm glad you brought up Mental Resistance...I'd considered it as well, then realized these should really have DR x/adamantine like most stone constructs.  Considering their power level, I'd recommend 20/adamantine or damage reduction 15/epic and adamantine.




Not so sure about that. They aren't intended for combat, just for answering questions.

I could go along with DR 15/adamantine I suppose.



Shade said:


> Most of the other feats look good.  Blind-Fight and Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius might also be a nice fit.  Since Iron Will and Epic Will don't stack, I'd probably just go with one or another (since Force of Will requires Iron Will, I'd probably go with that).




Iron Will and Epic Will both give typeless bonuses, so surely they should stack?


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer to give it a racial bonus in Knowledge as well.




Then let's do it.  



Cleon said:


> Not so sure about that. They aren't intended for combat, just for answering questions.
> 
> I could go along with DR 15/adamantine I suppose.




But they are still massive towers composed of stone!



Cleon said:


> Iron Will and Epic Will both give typeless bonuses, so surely they should stack?




Interesting...good point.  Superior Init goes out of its way to indicate that it doesn't stack, so Epic Will must stack with Iron Will.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Epic massive towers made of stone!  If we can't cajole Cleon into going higher by reminding him that the DR replaces hardness, let's at least do DR 15/adamantine.

Regarding the feats, flards have psi-like abilities, so they can't take Mental Resistance or Force of Will.  And I don't know whether Quicken SLA works on Ps abilities.  In any case, we can replace two of those three with more epic feats!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Epic massive towers made of stone!  If we can't cajole Cleon into going higher by reminding him that the DR replaces hardness, let's at least do DR 15/adamantine.




I stand firm on DR 15/adamantine. 



freyar said:


> Regarding the feats, flards have psi-like abilities, so they can't take Mental Resistance or Force of Will.  And I don't know whether Quicken SLA works on Ps abilities.  In any case, we can replace two of those three with more epic feats!




Good point on the Mental Resistance and Force of Wil.

Quicken SLA *does work on psionic abilities* so I reckon we should keep it.

Their aren't that many Epic Feats it's eligible for apart from Epic Toughness, Epic Prowess, the ability-improving Epic Feats and Epic Fortitude (the latter of which isn't much use to it).

Maybe Epic Toughness, plus Ability Focus (Cone of Cold) instead of the other Epic Feat?


----------



## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

Err, so it can only use Quicken SLA on a non-augmentable power.  Without making me look all of those up, can someone tell me if it has any Ps abilities that aren't augmentable?

Yeah, the epic feats are pretty lousy for quite a number of monsters.  Are you saying that you want to it take Epic Toughness twice?  But I don't have any other great ideas.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Err, so it can only use Quicken SLA on a non-augmentable power.  Without making me look all of those up, can someone tell me if it has any Ps abilities that aren't augmentable?




It's non-augmentable powers (with levels) are as follows:

 _control object _1
_destiny dissonance _1
_precognition _1
_clairvoyant sense _2
_sensitivity to psychic impressions _2
_escape detection _3
_remote viewing _4
_second chance _5
_greater precognition _6
_fate of one _7
_hypercognition _8
_metafaculty 9_

Of those, most aren't much use and the last three are too high level.

Out of the selection _second sight_ seems the most quick-worthy.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're curious it's augmentable powers and their levels are  _id insinuation _2_, mind thrust _1_, empty mind _1_, ego whip _2_, object reading _2_, thought shield _2_,  clairtangent hand _5_, fate link _3_, intellect fortress _4_, psionic blast _3_, mental barrier _3_, telekinetic force _3_, psychic crush _5, _tower of iron will _5 :ENDEDIT



freyar said:


> Yeah, the epic feats are pretty lousy for quite a number of monsters.  A






freyar said:


> re you saying that you want to it take Epic Toughness twice?  But I don't have any other great ideas.




No, I'm suggesting a single Epic Toughness plus Ability Focus (cone of cold).


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

Updated with save DCs and augmentations for psi-like abilities.

While doing so, I think we need to either boost its pathetic Cha or give it a bunch of Ability Focus feats for its PLAs that require saves.  As it stands, the only chance anyone will fail any of its saves (for those without augmented DCs) is by rolling a natural 1.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2010)

Boost that pathetic Cha up to the same area as the other mental stats.

I think it already has one Epic Toughness feat in the proposed list, so it seemed like you were suggesting an additional one, Cleon.  I'm stumped about the feats at this point.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 10, 2010)

We can give it a Cha boost, but still has a stiff and tight-lipped personality to me.


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> We can give it a Cha boost, but still has a stiff and tight-lipped personality to me.



Well, they still have very forceful personalities.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Updated.

I feel better now.  

Back to feats...

Summarizing what we suggested/eliminated above, I come up with the following:

Ability Focus (cone of cold), Blind-Fight, Blindsight 5-Ft. Radius, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Eyes In The Back Of Your Head, Greater Power Penetration, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Jack Of All Trades, Power Penetration, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (second sight), Superior Initiative

Look good?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I feel better now.
> 
> ...




Those look fine to me.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Updated.

Space/Reach: 30 ft./0 ft.?

We still need to develop "use internal magic items" and the amount of resistance to cold.



> Flards are extremely old, and spend most of their time dormant, gathering information. All attacks on an unawakened Flard will be turned back against the attacker.




The "turned back" attacks sounds a bit like a targeted form of the jovoc's Aura of Retribution...

Aura of Retribution (Su): This effect is always active in a 30-foot-spread centered on the jovoc. Whenever the creature takes damage from any source, every non-tanar'ri within the area immediately takes an equal amount of damage. A successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) halves the damage. (For example, if an opponent deals 12 points of damage to a jovoc, the opponent and every other nontanar'ri within 30 feet also immediately takes 12 points of damage each, or 6 points with a successful Fortitude save). Regardless of the source of the damage to the jovoc, the damage dealt to nontanar'ri by this effect is not subject to negation or reduction because of resistance, immunity, damage reduction, spell resistance, or the like. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Space/Reach: 30 ft./0 ft.?
> 
> We still need to develop "use internal magic items" and the amount of resistance to cold.




The big question is does it retain normal magic item slot limitations? I'm thinking it probably would.

Something like.

*Internalise Magic Items (Su):* A flard can use magic items in its internal cavity, except it cannot wield melee weapons or ranged weapons. For exampleIf its cavity contained a _ring of invisibility_ and _wand of fear_, it could turn itself invisible as if it was wearing the ring and cast _fear_ in any direction as if it was using the wand. Its magic item use is subject to the normal magic item slot limitations.

The cold resistance should be something hefty, like 25, 30 or so.



Shade said:


> The "turned back" attacks sounds a bit like a targeted form of the jovoc's Aura of Retribution...
> 
> Aura of Retribution (Su): This effect is always active in a 30-foot-spread centered on the jovoc. Whenever the creature takes damage from any source, every non-tanar'ri within the area immediately takes an equal amount of damage. A successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) halves the damage. (For example, if an opponent deals 12 points of damage to a jovoc, the opponent and every other nontanar'ri within 30 feet also immediately takes 12 points of damage each, or 6 points with a successful Fortitude save). Regardless of the source of the damage to the jovoc, the damage dealt to nontanar'ri by this effect is not subject to negation or reduction because of resistance, immunity, damage reduction, spell resistance, or the like. The save DC is Constitution-based.




I was thinking more a "reflect damage to the attacker power", otherwise they'd just stand outside 30 feet and wail away.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The big question is does it retain normal magic item slot limitations? I'm thinking it probably would.




Agreed.

Revising...

*Internalise Magic Items (Su):* A flard can use magic items in its internal cavity.  It treats any item that can be worn as worn, and is still limited to the normal limitations (1 amulet, two rings, etc.).  However, it cannot wield melee weapons or ranged weapons. For example, a flard holding a _ring of invisibility_ and _wand of fear_ in its cavity could turn itself invisible as if wearing the ring and cast _fear_ in any direction as if holding the wand. 



Cleon said:


> The cold resistance should be something hefty, like 25, 30 or so.




Most of the abominations have 20, so I could see sticking with that amount or going to 30.



Cleon said:


> I was thinking more a "reflect damage to the attacker power", otherwise they'd just stand outside 30 feet and wail away.




Sounds good.  Here's a stab at it...

Reflect Attacks (Su): Any melee or ranged attack targeting a dormant flard is reflected back upon its attacker.  An attacker makes its attack as normal, determining damage as if it had hit the flard (including the flard's damage reduction).  Any leftover damage is immediately dealt to the attacker, as if he or she had been struck by the weapon.  Spells directed at the flard are reflected back upon their caster, as if the flard were under the effects of a spell turning spell with no level limits.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Revising...
> 
> *Internalise Magic Items (Su):* A flard can use magic items in its internal cavity.  It treats any item that can be worn as worn, and is still limited to the normal limitations (1 amulet, two rings, etc.).  However, it cannot wield melee weapons or ranged weapons. For example, a flard holding a _ring of invisibility_ and _wand of fear_ in its cavity could turn itself invisible as if wearing the ring and cast _fear_ in any direction as if holding the wand.




That's much better than my rough draft.

We need to have some statement as to capacity of its internal cavity somewhere and how it works.

Do we want to make it a SQ?

*Internal Storage (Ex):* 

Hmm, we're probably better combining that with the "Internalise Magic Items" SQ.*Internalise Items (Ex):* A flard has an internal cavity it uses to store its treasure and magical  items. The cavity has a volume of X cubic feet and can contain a weight  up to the flard's medium encumbrance limit. Normally this storage space  is surrounded by seamless wall on all sides, but it can open or close  this cavity as a free action. It can put an item into this cavity as a  [move? or swift?] action (including opening and closing the cavity) or  expel it with a [move? or swift?] action.

Flards never put creatures into their internal cavity, so they won't try to hide allies or trap enemies in this storage space.

A flard can use magic items in its internal cavity.  It treats any item  that can be worn as worn, but is still limited to the normal limitations  (1 amulet, two rings, etc.).  However, it cannot wield melee weapons or  ranged weapons. For example, a flard holding a _ring of invisibility_ and _wand of fear _in its cavity could turn itself invisible as if wearing the ring and cast _fear_ in any direction as if holding the wand.
​What do you think?



Shade said:


> Most of the abominations have 20, so I could see sticking with that amount or going to 30.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looks fine to me.


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 12, 2010)

Reflect attacks is also similar to the spell reflection of the morkoth.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Reflect Attacks and Internalize (note Brit-American spelling divide!)  Items are both looking good.  Since we're keeping the item slot limitations, we could swap a feat out for Additional Magic Item Slot if we wish.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Reflect Attacks and Internalize (note Brit-American spelling divide!)  Items are both looking good.  Since we're keeping the item slot limitations, we could swap a feat out for Additional Magic Item Slot if we wish.




So move or swift action to switch an item from its cavity? I'm thinking move, same as drawing a weapon or readying a shield.

Hmm... maybe let them do it as a swift action if they have the Quick Draw feat?

I wouldn't bother about the Additional Magic Item Space feat.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

Move action, since I'm not sure they should really be dealing with that in combat.  I wouldn't particularly bother with how Quick Draw works for that, but it doesn't much matter to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Move action, since I'm not sure they should really be dealing with that in combat.  I wouldn't particularly bother with how Quick Draw works for that, but it doesn't much matter to me.




Move action's fine by me.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

Move's fine by me.  Updated.

Do we need an ability writeup for its dormant state, or just a sentence or two in tactics?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Move's fine by me.  Updated.
> 
> Do we need an ability writeup for its dormant state, or just a sentence or two in tactics?




It doesn't seem to require any SQ writeup. Constructs don't sleep, so a dormant Flard is probably fully aware of its surroundings and just waiting for someone to "say the magic word" which allows them a question.

Something like...

*Combat*
Flards spend most of their existence in a dormant state in which they reflect any attacks made against them back at their source. A dormant flard is fully aware of its surrounding but can not speak or take any action until it wakes. Flards only awaken to answer questions or defend themselves after taking damage.

A flard's godlike intelligence and clairsentient powers usually ensure that it understands all the powers of any creature it encounters and allow it to read their intentions before they know them themselves. They can always chose the most effective tactic among the powers and items at their disposal.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Updated.

Treasure: No coins; no goods; double items?

Advancement: 37+ HD (Colossal)?

Flards speak all languages?

Internalize Items (Ex): A flard has an internal cavity it uses to store its treasure and magical items. The cavity has a *volume of X cubic feet*...


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Treasure: No coins; no goods; double items?




That doesn't seem to match the original's A*5 Treasure very well:

Type A:
1-6 1,000s of copper pieces: 25%
1-6 1,000s of silver pieces: 30%
1-6 1,000s of electrum pieces: 35%
1-10 1,000s of gold pieces: 40%
1-4 100s of platinum pieces: 25%
4-40 gems: 60%
3-30 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 3: 30%

Five times that is up to 50,000 gp, 200 gems and 15 magic items!

Triple standard seems a better fit.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 37+ HD (Colossal)?
> 
> Flards speak all languages?




Those are both fine.



Shade said:


> Internalize Items (Ex): A flard has an internal cavity it uses to store its treasure and magical items. The cavity has a *volume of X cubic feet*...




A standard Flard's cavity can store about half a ton (1056 pounds to be precise), so I'd suggest 150 cubic feet, the same volume as a 1000-lb _bag of holding_.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

It's odd to think they'd have any use for money, but c'est la vie!

Updated.

Now for the hard parts...

Challenge Rating: x

Dragons with 20d6 breath weapons are in the CR 21-23 range.  Granted, this fella is immobile, but has greater defenses and can use its breath weapon every round.

And assuming it's worth the effort...

*Non-Psionic Flards*
If you do not use psionics in your campaign, make the following changes:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—x. Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's odd to think they'd have any use for money, but c'est la vie!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Tricky.

A lot of its manifestation ability are not that useful in combat, and its AC and PR is none to good.

Challenge Rating 20?



Shade said:


> And assuming it's worth the effort...
> 
> *Non-Psionic Flards*
> If you do not use psionics in your campaign, make the following changes:
> ...




How about this for a selection. They're not exact matches, and they're a bit more combat-based than the psionic version but there's the best I could whip up under short notice:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—_clairaudience/clairvoyance, __feeblemind__, __globe of invulnerability__, __greater arcane sight, __identify, __locate creature, locate object, __mass charm monster, __mind fog, nondetection, __ray of enfeeblement, __true seeing__;_  3/day—_contact other plane, _quickened _eyebite_, _greater scrying, __mind blank, __polar ray_, _spell turning, __symbol of stunning, __telekinesis__; _1/day—_crushing hand, __discern location, __foresight, __legend lore, protection from spells;_ 1/week_—__wish_ (only used to grant knowledge). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Its Psionic Feats, Greater Power Penetration, Power Penetration, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (second chance), also need to change to the spell equivalents - Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (eyebite).


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

CR 20 might suffice.

Hmm...while that list is attractive, I fear the non-psionic version will need a higher CR.   Polar ray is a wickedly deadly spell!


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Could we change that one SLA out or else give the psionic version something a little more "offensive"?


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Could we change that one SLA out or else give the psionic version something a little more "offensive"?




I was trying to find something to substitute for the psionic version's _mind thrust_, which is a DC30 Close-Range single target attack doing 20d10 damage.

That's a Will-negates rather than a no-save attack like _polar ray_, but the Psionic Flard can _mind thrust_ at will and it does more damage!

I thought giving it a 3/day _polar ray_ offered a reasonable match, as it'd be 20d6 damage and is stymied by cold resistance, which PC opponents are likely to have ready once they hear of the Flard's cone of cold attack (which does the same damage as its _polar ray_ remember, but with Save-for-Half).

Anyhow, if you can think of a better match for that _mind thrust_ I'd ge happy to go for it.


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

Well, if you can convince Shade, it's fine with me to keep it as is.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, if you can convince Shade, it's fine with me to keep it as is.




Well maybe I will, maybe I won't.

It doesn't bother me that much, I wasn't that fond of that 20d10 psionic attack in the first place so I'd be fine with any reasonable alternative.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Let's keep 'em both, but bump it to CR 21 in light of the effectiveness of those attacks.

Updated.  What's left?


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's keep 'em both, but bump it to CR 21 in light of the effectiveness of those attacks.




That's okay by me.



Shade said:


> Updated.  What's left?




The non-psionic version doesn't include the changes to its feats:

*Feats:* Ability Focus (cone of cold), Blind-Fight, Blindsight 5-Ft.  Radius, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Eyes In The Back Of Your Head,  Greater *Spell* Penetration, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Jack Of All  Trades, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (*something* - _eyebite?_), *Spell *Penetration,  Superior Initiative

Apart from that, I think it's done.


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Good catch!  Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Narra*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 6x6
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: R,X
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7/2-7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: 80-150
Attack/Defense modes: B, C, D/all

These creatures are extremely and fervently lawful good. They will succor all lawful good creatures and will help them to attain any objective which furthers the cause of that alignment. They will be kindly disposed to any character or creature type of good alignment. They often act as guards or minions for nobles of lawful good alignment, when no other mission demands their attention.

Narras can speak lawful good, shedu, lammasu, ki-rin, and common. They have the ability to become ethereal at will and can use some clerical spells with the effectiveness of a 6th-level cleric. The spells include:

Up to once per day each —Light, Purify Food and Drink, Slow Poison, Continual Light, Create Food and Water, Cure Blindness, Cure Disease.

Up to 3 times per day each — Bless (only on lawful good creatures), Cure Light Wounds, Dispel Magic, Prayer.

Up to once per round, only one spell in any single round — Detect Evil, Detect Magic, Know Alignment.

Narra (singular and plural) can perform the following psionic disciplines at 10th level of mastery: Body Equilibrium, Empathy, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Mind Bar, and Telepathy.

When not in ethereal form, a narra has the body of a small bull and the head of a man with small, bull-like horns. The body is white, cream, or tan in color.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #53 (1981).


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Magical beast like the lammasu, shedu, and ki-rin?

Comparing to its peers...
Lammasu: 7 HD, Str 23, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 14
Shedu:  9 HD, Str 19, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 22, Wis 18, Cha 16
Ki-Rin: 12 HD, Str 26, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 21, Cha 23

Its Int directly converts to 15-16.  Its HD are closest to the lammasu, so we can probably use those stats with a few modifications.  Its 6+6 HD suggest high Con.


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## RavinRay (Aug 25, 2010)

In 1e the shedu and lamassu were similar to one another, only that that former has psionics. It looks like a wingless shedu, and seems slightly less powerful as well.

Just 1HD less than the lamassu.

Off the top of my mind, most of those psi disciplines survive into 3e, just gotta see what mind bar is closest to. Will look them up and post when we get to those stats.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Previously, we've used Mind Blank, Personal in place of Mind Bar.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good catch!  Updated.




Sorry about this, but I just noticed a couple of typos in the Flard:



> Each flard has a specific name which awakens it when spoken aloud. Only  arduous research in rare, ancient extraplanar documents may *unconver* a  flard's name.   Flards are extremely unlikely to know each others'  names.
> 
> An *awkened* flard will generally answer only a single question before returning to its dormant state.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Magical beast like the lammasu, shedu, and ki-rin?
> 
> Comparing to its peers...
> Lammasu: 7 HD, Str 23, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 14
> ...




A Lammasu's stats seem a good model. In AD&D a Lammasu has 7+7 HD.

These chaps are slightly weaker at 6+6 HD, so how about giving them a Strength 22 and Constitution 16 like the SRD Bison?

Since its bull-bodied it could be a tad less agile than the lion-bodied Lammasu.

Tweak the mental stats a bit and you get something like:

Narra: Str 22, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 14, +7 NA ?


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Fixed the flard, and added narra to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Previously, we've used Mind Blank, Personal in place of Mind Bar.




Using _personal mind bar_ sounds good.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

> When not in ethereal form, a narra has the body of a small bull and the head of a man with small, bull-like horns. The body is white, cream, or tan in color.



Those first 5 words make me curious.  What ability lets it go ethereal of the ones listed?  Or are we supposed to give it an ethereal jaunt type ability?


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those first 5 words make me curious.  What ability lets it go ethereal of the ones listed?  Or are we supposed to give it an ethereal jaunt type ability?




Good point.

I like the idea of giving it ethereal jaunt. Maybe its schtick is hanging around in the ether watching mortals, and when it sees them doing something naughty it pops into materiality to stop them, crying out "Halt Evildoers!"


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Ethereal jaunt sounds good!  In fact, the shedu has it:

Ethereal Jaunt (Su): A shedu can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action. This ability is otherwise identical with ethereal jaunt (caster level 15th).

The shedu also has this:

Depart (Su): Once per week, a shedu may cast astral projection (caster level 18th). The ability affects only the shedu.



> Attack/Defense modes: B, C, D/all






> Body Equilibrium, Empathy, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Mind Bar, and Telepathy.




Summarizing...

Ego Whip (2nd, save)
Empty Mind (1st, no save)
Id Insinuation (2nd, save)
Intellect Fortress (4th, no save)
Mind Thrust (1st, save)
Mental Barrier (3rd, no save)
Thought Shield (2nd, no save)
Tower of Iron Will (5th, save [harmless])
Personal Mind Blank (6th, no save)
Body Equilibrium (2nd, no save)
Empathy (1st, no save)
Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions (2nd, no save)

For telepathy, I'd suggest we simply give 'em telepathy 60 ft. on the SQ line.

We'll need to figure out usage intervals for the rest.


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

Not sure that I'd add astral projection to these.

The usual telepathy SQ works for me.

How about at will for the 1st level powers, 3/day for the 2nd-4th level, and 1/day for the rest?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

That all sounds reasonable to me.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

I guess we should also change the claw attacks into hoof attacks.


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

Good point.  Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2010)

Max out Concentration, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and split the rest between Listen and Spot?


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Not sure that I'd add astral projection to these.
> 
> The usual telepathy SQ works for me.
> 
> How about at will for the 1st level powers, 3/day for the 2nd-4th level, and 1/day for the rest?




I'd like to keep the astral departure, since they probably hobnob with the upper planes folk like Shedu and Lammasu do. It doesn't make much difference to their behaviour in combat, since they can more easily "bug out" with ethereal jaunt.

The frequencies of the PLAs sound good.



freyar said:


> Max out Concentration, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and split the rest between Listen and Spot?




The text has "They often act as guards or minions for nobles of lawful good alignment" which suggests a couple of points in Knowledge (nobility and royalty) might be in order.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Astral travel isn't a biggie for me, but I would like to point out that a standard lammasu doesn't have any inherent way to get to the upper planes.   They'd need to get some more casting levels first.

How about ranks of Concentration 9, Diplomacy 9, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 3, Listen 3, Sense Motive 9, Spot 3?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Astral travel isn't a biggie for me, but I would like to point out that a standard lammasu doesn't have any inherent way to get to the upper planes.   They'd need to get some more casting levels first.




Alternatively, we could do a "Standard Narra" and a "Greater Narra" like 2E had a standard Shedu and a Greater Shedu.

That way we could give the Greater Narra the more potent abilities (including the 3/day _heal_ that one version of the AD&D Narra had).



freyar said:


> How about ranks of Concentration 9, Diplomacy 9, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 3, Listen 3, Sense Motive 9, Spot 3?




Hmm, I'd either cut Diplomacy to 5 and increase Listen and Spot by 2 apiece or give it a racial bonus in those sense skills.


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Alternatively, we could do a "Standard Narra" and a "Greater Narra" like 2E had a standard Shedu and a Greater Shedu.
> 
> That way we could give the Greater Narra the more potent abilities (including the 3/day _heal_ that one version of the AD&D Narra had).




I'm not opposed to two versions, but don't absolutely feel it's needed.  They could always take spellcasting classes like the lammasu.   Which version had heal?

I do agree that we'll need a non-psionic underbar.



Cleon said:


> Hmm, I'd either cut Diplomacy to 5 and increase Listen and Spot by 2 apiece or give it a racial bonus in those sense skills.




That works.  Diplomacy still ends up 1 point higher than those other two skills.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

For feats, maybe Iron Will and Empowering or perhaps Quickening an SLA/PLA or two?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not opposed to two versions, but don't absolutely feel it's needed.  They could always take spellcasting classes like the lammasu.   Which version had heal?




EDIT: Oh blast, I got it mixed up with the Opinicus, which has 3/day _holy word_ (not _heal_) in  *Monster Manual II* and *City of Delights,* but 1/day _holy word _in the Enworld 3rd edition conversion. :ENDEDIT 

We're doing two good-aligned human-headed Magical Beasts at the same time, no wonder I got confused.

So consider that a "Greater and Regular Opinicus" question. I'd better mention it over on the Al-Q thread.



Shade said:


> I do agree that we'll need a non-psionic underbar.
> 
> That works.  Diplomacy still ends up 1 point higher than those other two skills.
> 
> Updated.




There we can agree!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> For feats, maybe Iron Will and Empowering or perhaps Quickening an SLA/PLA or two?




Sounds good.

The only PLAs it can empower are _ego whip_ and _mind thrust_, and it can only quicken _mind thrust_ or _empty mind_.

I think either empowered _ego whip_ or quickened _mind thrust_.

Quickened _mind thrust_ is certainly the nastier of those two options - 10d10 damage and it can attack normally as well!


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Quickened _mind thrust_ is certainly the nastier of those two options - 10d10 damage and it can attack normally as well!




In that case, I vote quickened _mind thrust_!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> In that case, I vote quickened _mind thrust_!




Let it be so then!

If your synapses can't take 10d10 damage you shouldn't have turned to evil.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Too true, brother, too true.

But it gets yet another feat!  How about empowering ego whip also?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Sure!   Updated.

Environment: x
Shedu is "any land and underground", while lammasu is "temperate deserts"

Challenge Rating: 8?  They have 1 less HD than a lammasu, but have more potent SLAs.

Advancement: x
Lammasu: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 HD (Huge)
Shedu:  10-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge)

Level Adjustment: +x
Lammasu is +5, Shedu has none listed
Using the Savage Species method, I come up with +6.

A narra is x feet long and weighs x pounds.  (No size is given, but a typical lammasu is about 8 feet long and weighs about 500 pounds.  A narra's body is based off a small bull, rather than a lion like the lammasu, so we might get an approximation there.)

Narra speak Common, Draconic, and Celestial, and can communicate telepathically?  (These are the languages of the lammasu and shedu).


----------



## RavinRay (Aug 31, 2010)

CR 8-9; the shedu is 10 so it's still lower.

Same languages for me.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)?

LA +6 is ok, and so are the languages.  

No time to work out the size/weight!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Too true, brother, too true.
> 
> But it gets yet another feat!  How about empowering ego whip also?




Very well.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure!   Updated.
> 
> Environment: x
> Shedu is "any land and underground", while lammasu is "temperate deserts"




I fancy plains and cities. They hang around nobles, so maybe they're found in populated areas?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 8?  They have 1 less HD than a lammasu, but have more potent SLAs.




Maybe even CR 9. Their ethereal jaunt allows them to engage and disengage at will, so they can easily augment themselves with their powers before or between attacks.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x
> Lammasu: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 HD (Huge)
> Shedu:  10-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge)




7-9 HD (Large); 10–18 HD (Huge) ?



Shade said:


> Level Adjustment: +x
> Lammasu is +5, Shedu has none listed
> Using the Savage Species method, I come up with +6.




I'll take your word for it on the +6.



Shade said:


> A narra is x feet long and weighs x pounds.  (No size is given, but a typical lammasu is about 8 feet long and weighs about 500 pounds.  A narra's body is based off a small bull, rather than a lion like the lammasu, so we might get an approximation there.)




800-1000 pounds?

A typical cow is about that weight, although modern breeds are heavier and bulls are weightier than cows (up to 1500 pounds or so)

Still, it's specifically a _small_ bull.



Shade said:


> Narra speak Common, Draconic, and Celestial, and can communicate telepathically?  (These are the languages of the lammasu and shedu).




Might as well, it makes sense for them to be the same.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Looks great!   Updated.

Suggested tactics?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks great!   Updated.
> 
> Suggested tactics?




*Combat*
Narra use _detect evil _or _know alignment _on any creature they encounter. They will not fight good opponents unless defending some greater good. If they cannot persuade the good creatures to stop attacking they fly away or shift to the Astral or Ethereal Planes. Narra are willing to use force against neutral opponents, but generally only cast confusion amongst them with their _id insinuation_ power.

If a creature detects as evil, the narra seeks to destroy them with implacable fury. They usually attack with a quickened _mind thrust_ every round, together with another magical, psionic or physical attack, until the evil creature is obliterated or the narra faces defeat. A narra only spares using its quickened _mind thrust_ if an evil opponent is so feeble it would be a wasted effort.

Narra are wise enough to ethereal jaunt away from a losing fight, recover their strength, and return - usually with reinforcements.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Nice!  Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nice!  Updated.




They look good to me.

Let them go forth and crush the minds of the wicked!

EDIT: Hold on,  there's a typo in the PLAs. "body *equilibirum*" instead of "body equilibrium".[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nice!  Updated.




Done!


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

*Spirit, Psionic*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ravenloft
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 9
THACO 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Psionics
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 7,000
PSIONICS SUMMARY:
Level 9
Dis/Sci/Dev 3/5/14
Attack/Defense PsC/All
 Score 15
 PSPs 300
Psychometabolic - Devotions: Aging, cause decay.
Psychokinetic - Sciences: Telekinesis, project force.  Devotions:  Animate object, control body, control sound, control light.
Telepathy - Sciences: Mindlink, mindwipe, probe.  Devotions:  Attraction, aversion, contact, ESP, false sensory input, phobia amplification, post-hypnotic suggestion, psychic crush.

The psionic spirit is an unusual form of ghost with great psionic abilities that it employs instead of the normal magical abilities most often associated with such creatures.  Although perhaps more subtle in its methods than some ghosts, the psionic spirit is still a dangerous foe.

Always found in ectoplasmic form, the psionic spirit usually appears as a faintly shimmering human or demihuman.  The limbs of the psionic spirit are indistinct, trailing off into wispy, ectoplasmic tendrils.  Occasionally, an ectoplasmic tendril drifts away from the spirit.  Such pieces gradually solidify into a putrid, jellylike substance.

Psionic spirits know only the languages that they did in life.  As one might expect, psionicists can use psychic means to communicate with them.

Combat:  The psionic spirit’s sole source of pleasure is tormenting the minds of living creatures.  It particularly detests psionicists and will go out of its way to first destroy the psionicist’s mind and finally his body.

Before attacking more directly, the spirit will often use one or more of its psionic disciplines to frighten and confuse its intended victims.  Only when it feels its foes are sufficiently disoriented and terrified will the spirit attack more directly.

When attacking, the psionic spirit usually uses its control body devotion to cause confusion among its enemies.  The spirit will then attack spell users or psionicists with its psychic crush or aging powers.

The spirit can also attempt to drive a character mad.  Whenever the ghost successfully uses its telepathic probe it can force a character to look inside its demented mind.  The character must then make a madness check.  The psionic spirit can cause madness in a character of any class, not just psionicists.

A psionic spirit can only be hit by weapons of +1 enchantment or greater.  It is immune to sleep, charm, hold, poison, and cold-based attacks.  A priest can turn the spirit as a ghost.  Holy water harms the creature doing 2-8 points of damage per vial.

Habitat/Society:  A psionic spirit is more likely than most spirits to roam from place to place.  It spends much of its time searching for, and attempting to destroy, the psionicists it loathes.

Two theories exist as to the origins of psionic spirits.  The first states that such monsters are actually psionicists who somehow become trapped within their shadow form.  Eventually the torment of their hideous half-existence drives such individuals into madness, evil, and at the last into the arms of the Dark Powers, who grant the psionicist its ghostly form.  The second theory simply asserts that psionic spirits were once evil psionicists who suffered a violent death while using their mental powers.  Somehow the spirits of such psionicists remain in the world in the form of psionic ghosts.

Ecology:  Ppsionic spirits care little for treasure or other material possessions.  Treasure found in such a spirit’s lair will simply be the incidental goods of previous victims.

Psionicists who use retrospection while in Ravenloft would do best to take care, for psionic spirits can sense the use of this power.  Any psionicist using restrospection has a 5% chance of calling such a spirit to himself.

Originally appeared in Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness (1994).


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Some kind of variant ghost.

Template or base monster?

I think I'd prefer a monster with PLAs, but we can base it on the SRD Ghost.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

I know this will probably come as a surprise, but I'm actually leaning toward straight-ahead monster with PLAs as well!


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> I know this will probably come as a surprise, but I'm actually leaning toward straight-ahead monster with PLAs as well!




OK, stats somewhere between a Wraith and a Dread Wraith?

The Psionic Spirit's AC 0 equals AC 20 in 3E, halfway between the AC15 Wraith and AC25 Dread Wraith's 16HD, and its HD is inbetween as well (9HD vs 5HD & 16 HD).

Averaging the two Wraiths:

*Wraith:* Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
*Dread Wraith:* Str —, Dex 28, Con —, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 24

*Psionic Spirit:* Str —, Dex 22, Con —, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 19

That looks fine to me.

The original could only attack with its psionic powers, do we want to keep that or give it an incorporeal touch of some kind?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Looks good!   Added the basics to Homebrews.

Yes, I think it should have some weak incorporeal touch attack.

It should probably have a continuous detect psionics effect.



> The spirit can also attempt to drive a character mad. Whenever the ghost successfully uses its telepathic probe it can force a character to look inside its demented mind. The character must then make a madness check. The psionic spirit can cause madness in a character of any class, not just psionicists.




Some variation on alien mind?  Or does a psionic power exist that captures this well?


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## RavinRay (Sep 23, 2010)

We can say that the target is _confused_ as the spell; or better yet, name this after one of the two powers that cause _confusion_, _id insinuation_ (temporary) and _insanity_ (permanent), then just add the flavor text.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

That makes good sense.  We might blend in an alien mind-like retributive effect as well for those who willingly try to probe its mind.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That makes good sense.  We might blend in an alien mind-like retributive effect as well for those who willingly try to probe its mind.




So something like this:

*Contagious Insanity (Ps):* Any creature that makes telepathic contact with a psionic spirit's mind must succeed at DC *X* will save or go insane as per the _insanity_ psionic power. A psionic spirit can use its own telepathy to try to drive an opponent mad (standard? action, 100 ft. range, one target per use).


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

It should be Su, since it's partially passive.  Otherwise, I think it works fairly well.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> It should be Su, since it's partially passive.  Otherwise, I think it works fairly well.




I dithered about Su but went off the idea for some reason.

What do you think of the action question - standard action or something quicker?

DC based on Cha I think.

Revising...

*Contagious Insanity (Ps):* Any creature that makes telepathic contact with a psionic spirit's mind must succeed at DC 18 Will save or go insane as per the _insanity_  psionic power. A psionic spirit can use its own telepathy to try to  drive an opponent mad (standard? action, 100 ft. range, one target per  use). 	The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

I think a standard action is appropriate, similar to a targeted gaze attack.

Are we going with PLAs, or give it actual manifestation?  I'm thinking the latter might be more interesting, and allows access to psionic focus feats.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

Huh, if you're going with actual manifestation, I'd have suspected you'd want to make it a variant ghost that applies only to psionic characters.   But getting psionic focus would sure be nice.  Ok, I'll go along nicely.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think a standard action is appropriate, similar to a targeted gaze attack.
> 
> Are we going with PLAs, or give it actual manifestation?  I'm thinking the latter might be more interesting, and allows access to psionic focus feats.




I was thinking PLAs plus the Naturally Psionic SQ, so it has a PP to enable psionic focus feats.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, that could work too.


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, that could work too.




Which do you prefer?


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

We need to remember to make Contagious Insanity Su.

My feeling is to give it slightly less than CR-appropriate manifestation and then add in a few Ps abilities too.  How's that sound?


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking PLAs plus the Naturally Psionic SQ, so it has a PP to enable psionic focus feats.




Don't you mean _Un_naturally Psionic.  



freyar said:


> We need to remember to make Contagious Insanity Su.




Updated, making that change.



freyar said:


> My feeling is to give it slightly less than CR-appropriate manifestation and then add in a few Ps abilities too.  How's that sound?




Sounds perfect!

Another idea:  We could make the incorporeal touch attack drain power points, a fraction of which it could temporarily add to its own total (similar to the temporary hit points gained via energy drain).


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Well, I guess the victim would lose power points via the negative level (how does that work with psionic characters?), but I'd prefer the temporary power points gained to be a fixed number (like the temp hit points) and not specifically drain the victim, just to keep the bookkeepping simple.


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## RavinRay (Sep 28, 2010)

Here's the rule for negative levels on psionic characters:


> A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power.



BTW, did we take into consideration the fact as an undead the spirit is immune to all mind-affecting effects, but can dish them out? This gives it an extra edge against other psionic monsters.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> BTW, did we take into consideration the fact as an undead the spirit is immune to all mind-affecting effects, but can dish them out? This gives it an extra edge against other psionic monsters.




I hadn't considered that, but I like it!


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Another idea:  We could make the incorporeal touch attack drain power points, a fraction of which it could temporarily add to its own total (similar to the temporary hit points gained via energy drain).




How about we give them a special energy drain incorporeal touch with any hp or power points the victim loses due to the negative level gained by the psionic spirit as temporary points?


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## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> We need to remember to make Contagious Insanity Su.
> 
> My feeling is to give it slightly less than CR-appropriate manifestation and then add in a few Ps abilities too.  How's that sound?




So something like manifestation as a 7th level Psion?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How about we give them a special energy drain incorporeal touch with any hp or power points the victim loses due to the negative level gained by the psionic spirit as temporary points?






Cleon said:


> So something like manifestation as a 7th level Psion?




Both sound reasonable.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Both sound reasonable.




I don't mind freyar's earlier proposal of fixed hp/pp per negative level either, although I prefer the more "_vampiric touch_" version I proposed.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2010)

I'll wait for the others to weigh in on the "power drain" ability, but in the meantime, I've updated the entry with the basics for its psionic powers and psi-like abilities.



> PSIONICS SUMMARY:
> Level 9
> Dis/Sci/Dev 3/5/14
> Attack/Defense PsC/All
> ...




Manifester level 9th for the PLAs?

Egoist, kineticist, or telepath for the discipline?

Any discipline-specific powers above that it loses access to through specialization can be added to the PLA list.


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## RavinRay (Oct 1, 2010)

Honestly, I feel too many psionic monsters specialize in telepathy. And since it is already undead, it has the edge I mentioned earlier with regard to mind-affecting effects. An incorporeal undead with the psychometabolism discipline sounds like a contradiction to me, so that leaves psychokinesis, which is neat as it allows it to manipulate objects sans body.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Honestly, I feel too many psionic monsters specialize in telepathy. And since it is already undead, it has the edge I mentioned earlier with regard to mind-affecting effects. An incorporeal undead with the psychometabolism discipline sounds like a contradiction to me, so that leaves psychokinesis, which is neat as it allows it to manipulate objects sans body.




I'm convinced!


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

Psi-Like Abilities: At will—detect psionics, mindlink, read thoughts; 3/day—aversion, false sensory input, psionic suggestion; 1/day—mind probe, psychic crush, thieving mindlink. Manifester level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the psionic spirit's manifester level.

Psionic Powers: A psionic spirit manifests powers as a psion (kineticist) of 7th level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 60, save DC 14 + power level): 1st—attraction, control light, control object; 2nd—control air, control sound, energy missile; 3rd—energy cone, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust; 4th—control body, mindwipe, telekinetic maneuver. *Power can be augmented.

That leaves 3 more powers known.

We still need corresponding 3.5 powers for:  aging, cause decay, contact, and phobia amplification.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Honestly, I feel too many psionic monsters specialize in telepathy. And since it is already undead, it has the edge I mentioned earlier with regard to mind-affecting effects. An incorporeal undead with the psychometabolism discipline sounds like a contradiction to me, so that leaves psychokinesis, which is neat as it allows it to manipulate objects sans body.




I agree, Psychokinesis makes the most sense.

Besides, it's already got a pretty effective telepathic attack.


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## RavinRay (Oct 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> We still need corresponding 3.5 powers for: aging, cause decay, contact, and phobia amplification.



Contact is superfluous in 3.5 because telepathy powers reach their target without a need for initial connection. If we want to retain some flavor for 3.5, there are two possible ways I can see. One is to lengthen the manifesting time for telepathy powers, such as from a standard action to a full-round action. The other is to increase the DC Concentration check. Either way, a handicap should blunt some of the spirit's advantage in usinf mind-affecting effects.

There are no direct counterparts for the other three. The first two feel like psychometabolism, the last telepathy. I just skimmed through Heroes of Horror, which has rules about phobias, and I think we can modify an existing telepathy power to mimic the effects.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Contact is superfluous in 3.5 because telepathy powers reach their target without a need for initial connection. If we want to retain some flavor for 3.5, there are two possible ways I can see. One is to lengthen the manifesting time for telepathy powers, such as from a standard action to a full-round action. The other is to increase the DC Concentration check. Either way, a handicap should blunt some of the spirit's advantage in usinf mind-affecting effects.




Let's just skip it and keep 'em with an advantage.  



RavinRay said:


> There are no direct counterparts for the other three. The first two feel like psychometabolism, the last telepathy. I just skimmed through Heroes of Horror, which has rules about phobias, and I think we can modify an existing telepathy power to mimic the effects.




Sounds reasonable.  Maybe something that elevates any current fear effects by one degree (shaken to frightented, and so on)?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2010)

I like increasing fear by a step.  Neat.

I guess I prefer the energy drain temporary pp to function like the usual +5 temporary hp, but not by a whole lot.  We can go either way.  RavinRay, cast your vote quick before our dictator beloved moderator makes the decision.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> I guess I prefer the energy drain temporary pp to function like the usual +5 temporary hp, but not by a whole lot.  We can go either way.  RavinRay, cast your vote quick before our dictator beloved moderator makes the decision.




Yeah, quick before that guy...oh.


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## RavinRay (Oct 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like increasing fear by a step. Neat.
> 
> I guess I prefer the energy drain temporary pp to function like the usual +5 temporary hp, but not by a whole lot. We can go either way. RavinRay, cast your vote quick before our dictator beloved moderator makes the decision.



I'll go for the power point drain and then the spirit gaining those pp; at most that will give the spirit 17 pp (for a 9th-level power). Makes it more terrifying for me.

There's a _fear_ spell, and a _primal fear_ power in Complete Psionic which we can't use except as a variant rule. I also realized there are rules about phobias in the OGC of Unearthed Arcana.


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## RavinRay (Oct 6, 2010)

Ok, I found a telepathy power that leaves targets shaken, _demoralize_. We can write phobia amplification as a PLA based on it. I'll try to combine the wording of _phobia amplification_, _demoralize_, and _primal fear_.

Phobia Amplification (Ps): A psionic spirit can reach into a creature's mind to discover it's greatest fear, and amplify it to the point that the target is overcome with pure visceral terror. The target is shaken as the _demoralize_ power, except that the spirit can target only one creature within a (medium) range.

Now we need to work on how the effect can be amplified (or augmented since this is psionics) from shaken to frightened to panicked. Does the spirit use additional virtual power points; does the effect increase with decreasing HD from the target, or through metapsionic feats?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

What if we simply give it demoralize, and then revise phobia amplification as an actual new power as follows:

Phobia Amplification [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 2?
Display: Mental and olfactory 
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level 
Saving Throw: Will negates 
Power Resistance: Yes 
Power Points: 3

You reach into a creature's mind to discover it's greatest fear, and amplify it to the point that the target is overcome with pure visceral terror.   If the victim fails its save, the victim's current fear condition by one step (shaken to frightened, frightened to panicked, panicked to cowering).  This power has no effect on a creature not currently afflicted with a fear condition.  If this power's duration expires before the original fear effect, the effect is downgraded to its previous severity.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, the victim's fear condition increases by an additional step, and the power’s save DC increases by 1.


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## RavinRay (Oct 6, 2010)

That looks good! I try not a create a new power whenever possible but in this case it's justified.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Updated.

I added both demoralize and phobia amplification to its powers known.  We'll need one more.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I added both demoralize and phobia amplification to its powers known.  We'll need one more.




Demoralize and phobia amplification are good ideas.

Hasn't it got too many 4th level powers? It could only gains those as a 7th level Psion, when it goes from 13 powers to 15. That would mean it can only add two 4th level powers.

It also seems to have 1 too few 1st level powers.

Maximum No. of Powers
4th - 2
3rd -  6
2nd - 10
1st - 15

According to my calculations it can only get a 1st or 2nd level power. I'd suggest _ego whip_ or _concealing amorpha_.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hasn't it got too many 4th level powers? It could only gains those as a 7th level Psion, when it goes from 13 powers to 15. That would mean it can only add two 4th level powers.




Can psions "trade in" powers at new levels like a sorcerer?  If not, we can shift one of the 4th-level powers to the PLA list (probably 1/day mindwipe).



Cleon said:


> It also seems to have 1 too few 1st level powers.
> 
> According to my calculations it can only get a 1st or 2nd level power. I'd suggest _ego whip_ or _concealing amorpha_.




I slightly favor ego whip, but if we need to remove a 4th-level power (as above), we can use both of 'em.


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## RavinRay (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Can psions "trade in" powers at new levels like a sorcerer? If not, we can shift one of the 4th-level powers to the PLA list (probably 1/day mindwipe).



Nope, the psion sticks to its power list without swaps or trade in's. If it were the erudite variant psion, it could at least learn discipline powers through a ritual.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Nope, the psion sticks to its power list without swaps or trade in's. If it were the erudite variant psion, it could at least learn discipline powers through a ritual.




Bummer.  In that case, I'll move mindwipe to the PLAs, and go with ego whip and concealing amorpha for the powers.

Updated.


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## RavinRay (Oct 9, 2010)

We still on-track to convert _cause decay_? The closest I can find is _matter manipulation_.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Bummer.  In that case, I'll move mindwipe to the PLAs, and go with ego whip and concealing amorpha for the powers.
> 
> Updated.




We can still give it a 3rd level power instead of one of its 1st or 2nd level powers. Maybe exchange _control light_ for either _energy cone_, _forced share pain_, _psionic blast_ or _telekinetic thrust_?


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2010)

This is looking pretty good, and I like phobia amplification!  Since I'm not the psionics expert, I'll let you guys decide about whether to convert cause decay.

I'd probably go with telekinetic thrust for the 3rd level power, but maybe I'm not being imaginative enough.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> This is looking pretty good, and I like phobia amplification!  Since I'm not the psionics expert, I'll let you guys decide about whether to convert cause decay.
> 
> I'd probably go with telekinetic thrust for the 3rd level power, but maybe I'm not being imaginative enough.




That's fine by me, except I just realised it's _*already*_ got _telekinetic thrust_.

Make it _psionic blast_?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

Ooops!  Sure.


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ooops!  Sure.




That gives us:

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 60, save DC 14 + power level):  1st—_attraction, concealing amorpha, control object,  demoralize, ego whip_; 2nd—_control air, control sound, energy missile,  phobia amplification _(new power, see below); 3rd—_energy cone,  psionic blast, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust_; 4th—_control body, telekinetic  maneuver_. *Power can be augmented.

Shall we talk _cause decay_ now?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Let the decay commence.


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## RavinRay (Oct 19, 2010)

Guys, I'm on the road again (and will be again in November - Fharlanghn must be pleased with me!) so I don't have my 2e psionics with me, but IIRC it causes metals to rust, wood and organics to, well, decay, etc. So maybe reference a similar spell, or use an acid or disintegrate effect, and modify the wording for the power I mentioned earlier. Magic and psionic items have a saving throw, I think.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Guys, I'm on the road again (and will be again in November - Fharlanghn must be pleased with me!) so I don't have my 2e psionics with me, but IIRC it causes metals to rust, wood and organics to, well, decay, etc. So maybe reference a similar spell, or use an acid or disintegrate effect, and modify the wording for the power I mentioned earlier. Magic and psionic items have a saving throw, I think.




So, just cause hit point damage while ignoring hardness, but can't affect materials that don't rust or rot, like stone?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

Here's the original...



> *Cause Decay*
> Power Score: Con -2
> Initial Cost: 4
> Maintenance Cost: na
> ...




I think acid damage might work well, since it affects most objects equally.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2010)

Acid damage on objects only, then?  Save allowed for the objects, I guess (Fort probably).  But how much damage?


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Acid damage on objects only, then?  Save allowed for the objects, I guess (Fort probably).  But how much damage?




It ought to do quite a lot, since it's a single target touch power. A 4 power point _energy ray_ would do 4d6 damage. How about 1d10 damage per manifester level, like _mind thrust_?

Speaking of which, that 4 power suggests either a 2nd level power (3 PP cost) or 3rd level (5 PP cost).

Say, 2nd level, 3 power points and does 3d10 acid damage to an object (Fort save negates), with augmentation at +1d10 damage per +1 PP and +1 DC per +2 PP?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Say, 2nd level, 3 power points and does 3d10 acid damage to an object (Fort save negates), with augmentation at +1d10 damage per +1 PP and +1 DC per +2 PP?




That sounds great!


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## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds great!




What Discipline should it be? I can see arguments for psychokinesis (creating destructive energy), psychometabolism (since it resembles _corrosive touch_) and psychoportation (like _psionic disintegration_ except it "speeds up time" somehow?).

Anyhow, the rest of it probable goes something like this:

*Cause Decay*
Psychokinesis? Psychometabolism? Psychoportation?
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3

An object you touch rapidly decays, taking 1d10 points of acid damage. The object takes no damage if it succeeds on a Fortitude save. Cause decay has no effect on living creatures. This power can decay as much as one  10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, _cause decay_ may only  damage part of a very large object or structure.

*Augment*
For every additional power point you spend, this power's damage increases by 1d10 points. For each extra 2d10 points of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.


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## RavinRay (Oct 25, 2010)

From 3.0 to 3.5 psionics acid was removed as an energy descriptor and instead of being a psychokinesis power is in most if not all cases a psychometabolism power like _breath of the black dragon_ and _dissolving touch_.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

In that case, psychometabolism seems the best choice.

Updated.

So should cause decay go on the PLA list or the powers known?  If the latter, I'd suggest we use one of its feats for Expanded Knowledge to cover it.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> In that case, psychometabolism seems the best choice.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> So should cause decay go on the PLA list or the powers known?  If the latter, I'd suggest we use one of its feats for Expanded Knowledge to cover it.




I'd prefer sticking it in the PLAs, maybe 3/day?


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Did we decide for the incorporeal touch to do any damage other than energy drain?

Skills: 6 at 12 ranks
Autohypnosis, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Spot?   Excepting Spot, all are from the Psion (kineticist) class list.  I could see dropping Autohypnosis, since most of its benefits are useless to undead.

Feats: 4
We finally have a creature with a psionic focus.  Go crazy folks!  

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 9?  I figure it is CR 7 for psion levels alone.  Add on its incorporeal nature, energy drain, and psi-like abilities, and it feels like CR 9 to me.

Advancement: 10–x HD (Medium) or by character class (psion)?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> Did we decide for the incorporeal touch to do any damage other than energy drain?




I don't remember us agreeing on anything.

How about 1d6, like a Wraith?



Shade said:


> Skills: 6 at 12 ranks
> 
> Autohypnosis, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Spot?   Excepting Spot, all are from the Psion (kineticist) class list.  I could see dropping Autohypnosis, since most of its benefits are useless to undead.




Yes, but its skills might be "holdovers" from when it was alive, so it could well have Autohypnosis.

How about the skills the SRD Ghost gets racial bonuses in - Hide, Listen, Search, Spot? We could also give it racial bonuses in them.

Hide seems the most appropriate of those, since I imagine them being lurkers.

*Skills:* Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Spot



Shade said:


> Feats: 4
> We finally have a creature with a psionic focus.  Go crazy folks!




I'd like a few Metapsionic feats for it since they're ex-Psions. As it manifests at 7th level, we'd better stick to powers that cost up to 4 points extra: 0 points = Enlarge; 2 points = Burrowing, Delay, Empower, Extend or Split Psionic Ray; Twin 4 points = Maximized or Widen.

How about Burrowing Power and Delay Power? Those seem the most useful.

Psionic Meditation and Narrow Mind, so it can restore its psionic focus more easily?

Feats: Burrowing Power, Delay Power, Narrow Mind, Psionic Meditation.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary?




Yes, that will match the "Organization: Solitary" and "No. Appearing: 1" they have in _*Creatures of Darkness*_.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 9?  I figure it is CR 7 for psion levels alone.  Add on its incorporeal nature, energy drain, and psi-like abilities, and it feels like CR 9 to me.
> 
> Advancement: 10–x HD (Medium) or by character class (psion)?




CR 9 seems very appropriate.

I prefer the "by character class (psion)" advancement.

Why did we give them 7th level manifestation again? Their psionics are 9th level in _*Creatures of Darkness*_.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I don't remember us agreeing on anything.
> 
> How about 1d6, like a Wraith?




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> Yes, but its skills might be "holdovers" from when it was alive, so it could well have Autohypnosis.
> 
> How about the skills the SRD Ghost gets racial bonuses in - Hide, Listen, Search, Spot? We could also give it racial bonuses in them.
> 
> ...




Looks good.  Same racial bonus modifiers as ghost (+8)?



Cleon said:


> Feats: Burrowing Power, Delay Power, Narrow Mind, Psionic Meditation.




Looks good.



Cleon said:


> I prefer the "by character class (psion)" advancement.




I was thinking of both, and including the "or" on the line, but I'm fine with just psion advancement, too.



Cleon said:


> Why did we give them 7th level manifestation again? Their psionics are 9th level in _*Creatures of Darkness*_.




I couldn't remember either, so I went back and found this exchange:



freyar said:


> My feeling is to give it slightly less than CR-appropriate manifestation and then add in a few Ps abilities too.  How's that sound?






Cleon said:


> So something like manifestation as a 7th level Psion?






Shade said:


> Both sound reasonable.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Same racial bonus modifiers as ghost (+8)?




Yes, that's what I'd go for.



Shade said:


> I was thinking of both, and including the "or" on the line, but I'm fine with just psion advancement, too.




Oh, I'm happy with "or" so let's use that.



Shade said:


> I couldn't remember either, so I went back and found this exchange:




So it's all the fault of Freyar and this Cleon guy, whoever he is.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




It's missing the asterisks for "*power can be augmented".

I make it:

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 60, save DC 14 + power level):
1st—attraction*, concealing amorpha, control light, control object, demoralize*, ego whip*;
2nd—control air*, control sound, energy missile*, phobia amplification* (new power, see below);
3rd—energy cone*, telekinetic force*, telekinetic thrust*;
4th—control body*, telekinetic maneuver*.
*Power can be augmented.

Apart from that, it looks good to go.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Good catch.  Fixed.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good catch.  Fixed.




I think it's finished now.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

*Rautym *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Underground/cavems
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING 4-40
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 4 + 4
THACO 17 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE Nil
SIZE: (4')
MORALE Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 1,400
PSIONICS SUMMARY:
Level 5
Dis/Sci/Dev 2/1/6
Attack/Defense Nil
 Score 13
 PSPs 70
Clairsentience: Devotions: Danger Sense, Feel Sound, Hear Light
Psychometabolism: Sciences: Shadow-form; Devotions: Adrenalin Control, Aging, Chameleon Power

The rautym is a relatively harmless-looking creature, resembling a small, eyeless, hairless, freckle-backed monkey. However, as many adventurers have found, appearances can be deceiving. A rautym is never found far from its companions, and for good reason. It is not because they are fearful, but because they gain power simply by being together.

Although rautym have no eyes, they nonetheless have littie trouble existing, even flourishing, in the dark recesses of the underground. This is because two of their psionic powers are always active, and without cost in PSPs. These (Feel Sound and Hear Light) allow the rautym to move about in the dark freely. They maintain small quantities of faintly phosphorescent rocks all about their lairs, or on their persons if travelling, which allow them to function easily. If plunged into magical darkness and silence, the rautym panic and attempt to flee. Opponents can use these spells to defeat the rautym easily; this is an option few have tried, however, as it is not at all obvious upon meeting these creatures.

Combat: The rautym have exceptional control over their psionic abilities and use them to great effect during combat. When they encounter a danger, they use their Adrenalin Control to boost their Strength (the already have a natural Strength of 15) so they gain attack and damage bonuses. If necessary, they use Shadow-form to sneak behind their enemies, at which point they employ Aging or leap out upon their enemies to engage them in fierce hand-to-hand combat.

In addition to their arsenal of psionic powers, the rautym also have a power that is unduplicated in any other known race: they can dance magic, that is, they can summon magical energies by dancing in a certain way. There must, however, be at least two rautym for this to work. One acts as the dancer while the other acts as the focus. A lone rautym dancer must dance five hours to produce a single first level spell; the rautym who acts as the focus is the one who casts the actual spell The focus must have heard of the spell to cast it, and there must be at least twice aa many dancers as there are spell levels for spells past 5th level. The focus need not decide on the spell until the time comes to cast it, and there have been cases where the rautym dance for days, building the magical energies to an unheard.-of level.

Additional rautym reduce the casting time or increase the spell level. The specific amount of time depends on the num ber of dancers, and is five hours divided by the number of dancers. The increase in spell level is one level per rautym until 5th level, at which point there must be two rautym per level. For example, two rautym dancers can enable a focus to cast a second level spell after five hours of dancing, or can enable it to cast a first level spell in two and ½ hours. Likewise, five rautym can cast a 5th-level spell after five hours of dancing, or can decrease the casting time of a 1st-level spell to one hour. 

If possible, the rautym will post sentries who use their Chameleon Power and Danger Sense. Since the rautym cannot defend themselves while they dance (although their dancing reverie is broken when the circle is broken), they prefer to have sentries rather than the extra power. 

Habitat/Society: Rautym have a traditional focus, usually their elder, who leads them through the darkness of the underground. There is at least one elder per group of four. If the previous elder is killed, a new one is created to take its place. The rautym are never without a focus. 

Ecology: The rautym are an anomaly in the underground. None are sure of their origins, but know that disturbing a circle of dancing rautym is a sure way to invite destruction.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


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## RavinRay (Nov 3, 2010)

Quick impressions…

Small magical beast (psionic)? Or is it still humanoid enough to be a monstrous humanoid?

It has both psionic and magical abilities, just as the cerebrilith does. The magical dance effect takes an awful lot of effort, almost as if the creatures were developing an epic spell (more participants act as a mitigating factor) or using an incantation _(Unearthed Arcana)_. (I remember the 1e entry for aarakocra stating that a group of them performing an aerial dance can summon an air elemental.)

It has the _synesthete_ power to give it sight and hearing.

They have a shadow form ability of sorts; I don't know if there's a shadow-type power in the SRD, but there are in _Complete Psionic_. Edit: there is _shadow body_ in the SRD.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm leaning toward magical beast.

The aarakocra's ability is relatively simple in 3e...

Summon Large Air Elemental (Su): A group of five aarakocras that includes at least one cleric can cast summon monster VI to summon a Large air elemental. To perform the summoning, the aarakocras must perform an intricate aerial dance for 3 rounds.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Quick impressions…
> 
> Small magical beast (psionic)? Or is it still humanoid enough to be a monstrous humanoid?




I like Monstrous Humanoid for them. They're certainly more humanoid in build than, say, a Gargoyle.



RavinRay said:


> They have a shadow form ability of sorts; I don't know if there's a shadow-type power in the SRD, but there are in _Complete Psionic_. Edit: there is _shadow body_ in the SRD.




Yes, we might as well use that.


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

I'd still prefer magical beast, since they are essentially apes, but I'll bow to the majority preference.

Speaking of apes...

Baboon (M): Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Monkey (T):  Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5

Downsized baboon:  Str 11, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Upsized monkey:  Str 7, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5

Int is 8-10.  Cha should be decent, due to reliance on PLAs.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 6, 2010)

I'd go with magical beast.  The drawing in the original description showed them as quadrupedal.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I'd go with magical beast.  The drawing in the original description showed them as quadrupedal.




Magical Beast is OK if that's what you guys want.

The 1d6/1d6/1d8 claw/claw/bite suggests they're really strong for their size or have the combat effectiveness of their nails & teeth enhanced in some fashion.

Oh, and Shade, shouldn't the downsized baboon have Dex 16, not 12 - I think you've added the adjustment the wrong way.

Since the original has 4 bonus hit points on 4 Hit Dice I think they ought to have either a Con bonus or Toughness as a bonus feat, maybe both.

So, something like:

*Rautym:* Str 13, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 16, NA +3


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I boosted Str to 15, because:



> Combat: The rautym have exceptional control over their psionic abilities and use them to great effect during combat. When they encounter a danger, they use their Adrenalin Control to boost their Strength (the already have a natural Strength of 15) so they gain attack and damage bonuses.







> PSIONICS SUMMARY:
> Level 5
> Dis/Sci/Dev 2/1/6
> Attack/Defense Nil
> ...




It looks like they are 5th-level psions.  Seer or Egoist?



> Although rautym have no eyes, they nonetheless have littie trouble existing, even flourishing, in the dark recesses of the underground. This is because two of their psionic powers are always active, and without cost in PSPs. These (Feel Sound and Hear Light) allow the rautym to move about in the dark freely. They maintain small quantities of faintly phosphorescent rocks all about their lairs, or on their persons if travelling, which allow them to function easily. If plunged into magical darkness and silence, the rautym panic and attempt to flee. Opponents can use these spells to defeat the rautym easily; this is an option few have tried, however, as it is not at all obvious upon meeting these creatures.




Blind SQ seems a no-brainer.  What about deaf?


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## RavinRay (Nov 10, 2010)

They need to feel sound with their facial skin, and hear light with their ears, but it doesn't explicitly say they are deaf, so I don't think so.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I boosted Str to 15, because:




Dang it, I remember seeing that and thinking "must set Str to 15" before I did that post, which I then forgot about.

Oh well, it was an "unknown known".



Shade said:


> It looks like they are 5th-level psions.  Seer or Egoist?




Egoist seems a better fit, since (a) that's what they have the most powers in and (b) their Feel Sound and Hear Light are more akin to an always-on PLA or a (Su) SQ.



Shade said:


> Blind SQ seems a no-brainer.  What about deaf?




I like Deaf too, otherwise the original's Feel Sound doesn't make much sense for them.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

Psi-Like Abilities: Always active—synesthete; at will—x; 3/day—x; 1/day—psychofeedback, shadow body. Manifester level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the rautym's manifester level.

Psionic Powers: A rautym manifests powers as a psion (egoist) of 5th level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 32, save DC 13 + power level):
1st—x;
2nd—chameleon;
3rd—danger sense.
*Power can be augmented.


It gets a total of 11 powers known.  Did we ever come up with a 3.5 equivalent of _aging_?


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## RavinRay (Nov 11, 2010)

Nope, we never did do _aging_. Do we just write up a PLA wherein the physical ability scores suffer a -1 penalty without the mental scores going up?


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Did we ever come up with a 3.5 equivalent of _aging_?




Not that I recall, we can always make something up.

How about giving them the _cause decay_ we just came up with for the Psionic Spirit?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2010)

Cause decay or variant is probably good.  

I'd also go with deaf.  If we're giving them 3.5 synesthete always on, the only sense they really need is touch (on their face). Edit: and I'd let them feel sound and light at the same time.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Sounds good (pun intented).  Updated.

Suggestions for the remaining powers?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2010)

Ok, the original had 







> Clairsentience: Devotions: Danger Sense, Feel Sound, Hear Light
> Psychometabolism: Sciences: Shadow-form; Devotions: Adrenalin Control, Aging, Chameleon Power



Looks like we're going with some of these as powers and some as PLAs; I'd almost rather stick these all into PLAs and write a different power list.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2010)

Since we decided upon Egoist, I tried to put the psycometabolism powers on its powers list.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

Besides danger sense, isn't everything in both the PLA and power list psychometabolism?  I guess, other than the 2 PLAs being too high level, I don't get the difference.  And now there aren't any clear choices for PLAs.  Let's at least also give them chameleon as a 3/day PLA even if we leave it on the power list.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

We don't necessarily need PLAs.   I'm fine with moving chameleon to that list, though.

We should probably look through the other low-level psychometabolism powers to help fill up its powers known list.


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> We don't necessarily need PLAs.   I'm fine with moving chameleon to that list, though.
> 
> We should probably look through the other low-level psychometabolism powers to help fill up its powers known list.




I'm starting to think we'd be better off just giving it PLAs and dropping the Egoist manifester levels entirely.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

I suppose that makes sense, since the psion levels cheapens their "dance magic".

Why work your butt off as a group to cast a single spell, when each individual can manifest a power each round?


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

The dance magic ought to have some boost to it for sure, though I guess I'm not opposed to dropping the innate manifestation.  



> In addition to their arsenal of psionic powers, the rautym also have a power that is unduplicated in any other known race: they can dance magic, that is, they can summon magical energies by dancing in a certain way. There must, however, be at least two rautym for this to work. One acts as the dancer while the other acts as the focus. A lone rautym dancer must dance five hours to produce a single first level spell; the rautym who acts as the focus is the one who casts the actual spell The focus must have heard of the spell to cast it, and there must be at least twice aa many dancers as there are spell levels for spells past 5th level. The focus need not decide on the spell until the time comes to cast it, and there have been cases where the rautym dance for days, building the magical energies to an unheard.-of level.
> 
> Additional rautym reduce the casting time or increase the spell level. The specific amount of time depends on the num ber of dancers, and is five hours divided by the number of dancers. The increase in spell level is one level per rautym until 5th level, at which point there must be two rautym per level. For example, two rautym dancers can enable a focus to cast a second level spell after five hours of dancing, or can enable it to cast a first level spell in two and ½ hours. Likewise, five rautym can cast a 5th-level spell after five hours of dancing, or can decrease the casting time of a 1st-level spell to one hour.



Perhaps the "unheard of levels" means they can do epic casting?  Or something like circle casting from FR red wizards/hathrans?  Plus, they don't seem to need to know the spells.


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Perhaps the "unheard of levels" means they can do epic casting?  Or something like circle casting from FR red wizards/hathrans?  Plus, they don't seem to need to know the spells.




That seems to be the inference, but I'm not sure I want to give them that much power.

Anyhow, are we going for manifester levels or PLAs?


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

I think I'd like both manifester levels and PLAs, but I could cut back the manifesting some.


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## RavinRay (Nov 23, 2010)

I agree, a modest manifester level with some PLAs thrown in makes a better fit.

As for the dance thingy… it really seems like a ritual for an epic spell for me, but I am really undecided on that. Or an incantation for a one-time effect that combines the effects of two or more spells. Or even a spell enhanced with psionics like the psi-spell abilities of illithids mentioned in _Dragon_. Just throwing ideas around.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

Yes, something different for the dancing.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, something different for the dancing.




I'd go for some kind of "non-epic ritual" approach.

The first thing we need to decide how much time / dancers they need to generate a spell-effect of a given spell level and caster level.

Do they need material components? What about XP costs?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

I think the dancing itself should negate XP costs and maybe even expensive material components.  They have to dance a long time, you know.

EDIT: but perhaps first we need to settle on the reduced manifester level.  What about ML 3 instead of 5?


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the dancing itself should negate XP costs and maybe even expensive material components.  They have to dance a long time, you know.




I'm OK by that, we can always say spells with XP and material costs increase dancing times instead.

So, shall we get back to the question of what spell-level and caster-level they can create?

I'm thinking something like max spell level = HD of the "focus", max CL = HD of the focus plus number of dancers?



freyar said:


> EDIT: but perhaps first we need to settle on the reduced manifester level.  What about ML 3 instead of 5?




I prefer an all PLA approach for the powers rather than giving them Psion casting, but would keep said PLAs ML 5.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2010)

If we're going to stick to 4th level spells for standard ones, we'd better cut the casting time requirements way back.  I think I like incantations better in some ways, but that's partly because I also like innate manifestation.


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> If we're going to stick to 4th level spells for standard ones, we'd better cut the casting time requirements way back.  I think I like incantations better in some ways, but that's partly because I also like innate manifestation.




It may be simpler just deciding on the CL and saying the max spell level is whatever matches that CL (e.g. a CL 13 dance can produce a spell of 7th level or less).

A pack can number anywhere from 4 to 40, so an average sized pack will be around 20-odd. If we make max caster level = number of rautym then the bigger packs would be throwing epic-level spells about. I guess we could impose a CL cap, so the big packs just dance the spells faster, but I'd prefer to just cap the spell level at 9th since 3E spells have more build-in level restrictions than AD&D ones.


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Ok, given your max CL formula and max spell level is the same of a wiz for that caster level; max CL = 20, then I'm ok.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, given your max CL formula and max spell level is the same of a wiz for that caster level; max CL = 20, then I'm ok.




Well it does say they can build "magical energies to an unheard-of level", so I don't mind epic (20+) levels. The long casting time means it'll not be used in combat.

Oh,and it also says "there must be at least twice as many dancers as there are spell levels for spells past 5th level." Do we want to include that?

CL = #dancers (min 9th)
Max spell level = 1 + 1/2 #dancers (min 5th)


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2010)

I think spells changed too much going to 3.x to stick to that formula, which is also a bit confusing.  Let's just stick to the proposed CL=# of critters (up to some variation to speed casting time) and allow spell levels up to that a wiz of said CL can cast.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think spells changed too much going to 3.x to stick to that formula, which is also a bit confusing.  Let's just stick to the proposed CL=# of critters (up to some variation to speed casting time) and allow spell levels up to that a wiz of said CL can cast.




That'd be OK.

What about the "magical energies to an unheard-of level" bit, just not have a CL limit?


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2010)

That's also fine by me.  Shade, RavinRay, care to chime in?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

freyar's proposal and the on-upper-limit appeals to me.


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## RavinRay (Dec 7, 2010)

Yes, and we definitely need to cap that effective caster level.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Yes, and we definitely need to cap that effective caster level.




How about capping it at a caster level of 20 plus the hit dice of the focal Rautym? (e.g. max CL 24 for a pack of standard 4 HD specimens).

Methinks it's time to start roughing it out.

*Dance Magic (Sp):* Rautyms possess a unique ability to work magic by dancing. At least two rautyms are needed to work this dance magic. One rautym acts as the focus of the magic, the other rautyms dance around the focus rautym to generate the magic.

Dance magic can be create any spell the focus rautym has seen being cast. The maximum caster level equals the number of rautym participating, or 20 plus the Hit Dice of the focus rautym (whichever is less). Rautym often dance low caster level spells in order to reduce the casting time. _The focus rautym can apply any metamagic feats is has to the dance magic spell, except dance magic spells cannot be Quickened?_

Dance magic is slow, it takes (some formula) to complete the dance and cast the spell. If the focal rautym's concentration on the dance magic is broken (same procedure as interrupting a spell) the dance magic is ruined, if a dancer is interrupted they are unable to contribute to the dance magic, which adds X to the casting time. The DC of the resulting spell is based on the Charisma of the focal rautym.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2010)

I like the red part.  I'll also take a stab at the casting time.  It could probably be smoother, but it's a start.

Dance Magic (Sp): Rautyms possess a unique ability to work magic by dancing. At least two rautyms are needed to work this dance magic. One rautym acts as the focus of the magic, and the other rautyms dance around the focus rautym to generate the magic.

Dance magic can create any spell the focus rautym has seen being cast, and the focus rautym can apply any metamagic feats it has to the dance magic spell (except Quicken Spell).  The caster level of the spell equals the number of rautym participating, up to a maximum of 20 plus the Hit Dice of the focus rautym; the spell cast must be such that a sorcerer of the given caster level could cast the spell including metamagic effects. Rautym often dance low caster level spells in order to reduce the casting time (see below). 

Dance magic is slow.  Completing the dance and casting the spell takes one minute per minimum caster level that a sorcerer requies to cast the spell, minus one minute per caster level that the ruatym's effective caster level exceeds the required caster level (to a minimum of one minute).  If the focal rautym's concentration on the dance magic is broken (same procedure as interrupting a spell) the dance magic is ruined, and if a dancer is interrupted, they are unable to contribute to the dance magic, which reduces the effective caster level of the group, and thereby increasing the casting time or possibly ruining the spell.  The DC of the resulting spell is based on the Charisma of the focal rautym.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

That looks quite good.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Let's see what Cleon thinks about it: any quibbles?


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's see what Cleon thinks about it: any quibbles?




I have a few. To begin with, the repeated mention of "sorcerer" makes it sound like it can only cast sorcerer/wizard spells, although can't it also cast other spells (cleric, druid etc) provided it meets the prereqs?

There's also a typo ("requies") and some ugly syntax in the last paragraph.

Also, I suggested increasing the casting time for spells with costly components. Speaking of which, it doesn't seem right for them to cast spells with the Good descriptor.

Finally, the original version could cast reduce the *caster level* to increase the speed.

How's this?

*Dance Magic (Sp):* Rautyms possess a unique ability to work magic by  dancing. At least two rautyms are needed to work this dance magic. One  rautym acts as the focus of the magic, and the other rautyms dance  around the focus rautym to generate the magic.

Dance magic can create any spell the focus rautym has seen being cast.  The focal rautym can apply any metamagic feats it has to the dance  magic spell, except Quicken Spell.  The magic has a caster level equal to the number of rautym participating, up to a maximum of 20 plus  the Hit Dice of the focus rautym; the caster level must be high enough for a sorcerer of that level to cast the chosen spell, including  metamagic effects. Rautym often dance low level spells in order  to reduce the casting time (see below).

Dance magic is slow, completing the dance and casting the spell takes one minute per minimum  caster level that a sorcerer requires to cast the spell, minus one minute  per caster level that the ruatym's effective caster level exceeds the  required caster level (minimum of 1 minute or the spell's normal casting time). The rautym can reduce this time by 1 minute for every level they reduce the casting time, down to the minimum caster level for the spell. Dance magic spells do not require material or XP components, but spells with these components take longer to dance; for every 10 XP or 250 gp worth of components the spell normally requires, the dance magic takes 1 minute longer to complete.

If the focal rautym's concentration on the dance magic is  broken (same procedure as interrupting a spell) the dance magic is  ruined. If a dancer is interrupted, they are unable to contribute to  the dance magic. Interrupted dancers reduce the effective caster level of the group, thereby increases the casting time and possibly ruining the dance magic if the caster level is reduced to less than the spell's minimum. The DC of the resulting spell is based on the Charisma of the focal rautym.

_Example:_ a 7th level sorcerer spell has a minimum CL of 14th. 18  rautym have a caster level of 18th, 4 higher than the spell minimum, so  can cast a 7th level spell in 10 minutes (14-4) at CL 18th. If they  lower the spell's caster level by another 4 levels to the spell's  minimum of 14th they cut another 4 minutes off the time, casting the 7th  level spell in 6 minute at CL 14th.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2010)

Now you've put a run-on sentence in there.  (Dance magic is slow, ...)

I like the sentence "Dance magic spells do not require material or XP components, but spells with these components take longer to dance; for every 10 XP or 250 gp worth of components the spell normally requires, the dance magic takes 1 minute longer to complete."

However, I don't understand what you mean by this: "The rautym can reduce this time by 1 minute for every level they reduce the casting time, down to the minimum caster level for the spell."  Isn't that what already happens in the previous sentence?  

If you're worried about cleric spells, etc, we can just add a sentence that they treat all arcane and divine spells as sorc/wiz spells.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Now you've put a run-on sentence in there.  (Dance magic is slow, ...)




It's a work in progress, so we can expect a few syntactical potholes that'll need filling in.



freyar said:


> I like the sentence "Dance magic spells do not require material or XP components, but spells with these components take longer to dance; for every 10 XP or 250 gp worth of components the spell normally requires, the dance magic takes 1 minute longer to complete."




Thanks, I liked it to. 



freyar said:


> However, I don't understand what you mean by this: "The rautym can reduce this time by 1 minute for every level they reduce the casting time, down to the minimum caster level for the spell."  Isn't that what already happens in the previous sentence?




No, the previous sentence gives the casting time for spells cast at the group's normal caster level. I'll try to rephrase it to make it clearer.



freyar said:


> If you're worried about cleric spells, etc, we can just add a sentence that they treat all arcane and divine spells as sorc/wiz spells.




Might as well.

I've also realised that if it's "dance magic" we might want to add Still Spell the unapplicable Metamagic spells. Unless we want them to be able to cast "pose spells".

Revising...

*Dance Magic (Sp):* Rautyms possess a unique ability to work magic  by  dancing. At least two rautyms are needed to work dance magic.  One  rautym acts as the focus of the magic, and the other rautyms dance   around the focus rautym to generate the magic.

Dance magic can create any arcane or divine spell the focal rautym has seen being cast. Dance magic spells are treated as sorcerer/wizard spells with a DC based on the Charisma of the focal  rautym. Dance magic spells always have a somatic component even if the original spell does not. The focal rautym can apply any metamagic feats it possesses to the dance   magic spell, except for Still Spell or Quicken Spell. The spell's caster level normally equals the number of rautym participating (maximum caster level 20 plus  the  Hit Dice of the focus rautym), but rautym can lower the casting level to reduce the  casting time (see below). The caster level must be high enough for a  sorcerer of that level to cast the chosen spell, including  metamagic  effects.

Dance magic is slow. Completing the dance and casting the spell takes a number of minutes equal to the minimum  caster level of the spell (see above); if the number of rautym in the group exceeds the minimum caster level the casting time is reduced by 1 minute per additional rautym (minimum of 1  minute or the spell's normal casting time). The rautym can cast the dance magic spell faster by lowering the caster level (down to the minimum caster level for the spell). For every level the caster level is lowered the casting time is reduced by 1 minute (minimum of 1  minute or the spell's normal casting time). For example, if a dance group normally casts spells at CL 20th it could cast a spell at CL 10th to reduce the casting time by 10 minutes or CL 1st to reduce it by 19 minutes.

Dance magic spells do not  require material or XP components, but spells with these components take  longer to dance; for every 10 XP or 250 gp worth of components the  spell normally requires, the dance magic takes 1 minute longer to  complete.

If the focal rautym's concentration on the dance magic is  broken (same  procedure as interrupting a spell) the dance magic is  ruined. If a  dancer is interrupted, they are unable to contribute to  the dance  magic. Interrupted dancers reduce the effective caster level of the  group, thereby increases the casting time and possibly ruining the dance  magic if the caster level is reduced to less than the spell's minimum.  

_Example:_ a 7th level sorcerer spell has a  minimum CL of 14th. 18  rautym have a caster level of 18th, 4 higher  than the spell minimum, so  can cast a 7th level spell in 10 minutes  (14-4) at CL 18th. If they  lower the caster level by 4  levels to a 7th level spell's  minimum CL of 14th they cut 4 minutes off  the time, for a 6 minute casting time.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

I'd be perfectly happy to limit them to sor/wiz spells.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd be perfectly happy to limit them to sor/wiz spells.




While I would prefer to keep it at divine and arcane, since I don't see anything in the original to indicate they can't dance divine spells, it does seem a little odd. What would the source of the spell's divine power be? Their "faith in the dance" perhaps?

Still, I don't mind making it arcane only. They can still cast most divine spells by dancing a _limited wish_ or _wish_ spell.

So, count my vote as "arcane and divine" but if freyar votes "arcane-only" I'll go along.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

What if we say arcane but allow bard spells as well?

Right, Still Spell should surely be out.

I think I see what you're getting at (Cleon) about the casting time, but it's taken a few re-readings.  You want them to be able to voluntarily reduce the spell's CL, like a sorc/wiz can reduce the CL of a scroll (for ex) to decrease the casting time even more.  Is there any way to clarify this further?


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we say arcane but allow bard spells as well?




What? Bards cast arcane spells!



freyar said:


> Right, Still Spell should surely be out.




Well at least we can agree on something! 



freyar said:


> I think I see what you're getting at (Cleon) about the casting time, but it's taken a few re-readings.  You want them to be able to voluntarily reduce the spell's CL, like a sorc/wiz can reduce the CL of a scroll (for ex) to decrease the casting time even more.  Is there any way to clarify this further?




Wasn't the latest revision clear enough? I'm open to suggestions.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2010)

Indeed, bards cast arcane spells, but Shade wanted to limit to sorc/wiz only!

I didn't find your last revision clear enough, but maybe that's just because I'd come in with some preconceptions about where we were going.  I think it's ok.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Indeed, bards cast arcane spells, but Shade wanted to limit to sorc/wiz only!
> 
> I didn't find your last revision clear enough, but maybe that's just because I'd come in with some preconceptions about where we were going.  I think it's ok.




Right. I would still rather allow any arcane or divine spell, but don't mind making it any arcane instead if you'd both rather do that. I don't fancy reducing it to any sorc/wiz though.

Apart from that, is the current version good?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm happy with allowing divine spells, too, but I'm also ok with any arcane.

I think the current version is good other than dickering over this.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Let's just run with the current version.

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

What else is necessary, and did we finally decide to keep manifestation?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Dance magic took so long, I lost track of the rest.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> What else is necessary, and did we finally decide to keep manifestation?




The Dance Magic looks finished to me.

As for the psionics, I still prefer an all-PLA approach, if only because it's a bit easier.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

That's ok, I guess.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

That's fine.   Here's what we've got now...

Psi-Like Abilities: Always active—synesthete (may feel both sound and light simultaneously); at will—x; 3/day—x; 1/day—psychofeedback, shadow body. Manifester level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the rautym's manifester level.

Psionic Powers: A rautym manifests powers as a psion (egoist) of 5th level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Typical Psion Powers Known (power points 32, save DC 13 + power level):
1st—x;
2nd—cause decay, chameleon;
3rd—danger sense.
*Power can be augmented.


Merging the two...

Psi-Like Abilities: Always active—synesthete (may feel both sound and light simultaneously); 3/day—cause decay, chameleon; 1/day—danger sense, psychofeedback, shadow body. Manifester level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the rautym's manifester level.

Look OK?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's fine.   Here's what we've got now...
> 
> Psi-Like Abilities: Always active—synesthete (may feel both sound and light simultaneously); at will—x; 3/day—x; 1/day—psychofeedback, shadow body. Manifester level 5th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> *Includes augmentation for the rautym's manifester level.
> ...




Looks OK!


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 7 ranks
Put it all in Concentration?

Feats: 2
Combat Manifestation?

Challenge Rating: 3?   Cause decay is fairly deadly for its power level, and the dance magic can be game-changing in groups.

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?

Advancement: By character class (psion)?  Or HD advancement?

Level Adjustment: -?  (I suppose they aren't that bad individually as characters, but a group of them with dance magic could be campaign-breaking)

A rautym is 4 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Rautym speak x.


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 7 ranks
> Put it all in Concentration?




I'd prefer 5 in Concentration and 2 in Perform (dance), just for the sake of verisimilitude.

They'll get a +4 circumstance bonus on all three sensory skills from their improved _synesthete _power.

That works out as:

*Skills:* Concentration +6, Listen +1* [_+5 with synesthete_], Perform (dance) +5, Search +1* [_+5 with synesthete_], Spot +1* [_+5 with synesthete_]



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Combat Manifestation?




Yes, plus Multiattack?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 3?   Cause decay is fairly deadly for its power level, and the dance magic can be game-changing in groups.
> 
> Alignment: Usually neutral evil?




Both are fine.



Shade said:


> Advancement: By character class (psion)?  Or HD advancement?




Hit Dice but no size change feels right to me, probably 4-9 HD (Small).



Shade said:


> Level Adjustment: -?  (I suppose they aren't that bad individually as characters, but a group of them with dance magic could be campaign-breaking)




If a PC asked me to play one of these I'd set the Level Adjustment to "Hell No", a.k.a. "—".



Shade said:


> A rautym is 4 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




40 or 50 pounds?



Shade said:


> Rautym speak x.




There's no mention of language in the original text, but Undercommon would make sense.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

Updated.  What's left?


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  What's left?
> 
> Skills: Concentration +6, Listen +1*, Perform (dance) +5, Search +1*, Spot +1*
> 
> *Includes +4 racial bonus for _synesthete_.




The spell provides a circumstance bonus, not a racial one, and the modifier is +5 if you include it:

*Skills:* Concentration +6, Listen +5*, Perform (dance) +5, Search +5*, Spot +5*

 *Includes +4 circumstance bonus from its always active _synesthete_ psi-like ability.



> Dance Magic (Sp): Rautyms possess a unique ability to work magic by  dancing. At least two rautyms are needed to work dance magic. One rautym  acts as the focus of the magic, and the other rautyms dance around the  focus rautym to generate the magic.



Oops, I must have forgotten "Rautym" is both singular and plural when I wrote that, it should be:
*
Dance Magic (Sp):* Rautym possess a unique ability to work magic by  dancing. At least two rautym are needed to work dance magic. One rautym  acts as the focus of the magic, and the other rautym dance around the  focus rautym to generate the magic.



> Although rautym lack the traditional senses of vision and hearing, they  can psionically "feel" sound and "hear" light with their power, allowing them to move  about in the subterranean dark freely. They maintain small quantities of  faintly phosphorescent rocks all about their lairs, or on their persons  if travelling, which allow them to function easily. If plunged into  magical darkness and silence, the rautym panic and attempt to flee.



It doesn't really need the Although at the start, and I feel the last sentence would work better in the Tactics section.

Rautym lack the traditional senses of vision and hearing, but psionically "feel" sound and "hear" light, allowing them to move  about in the subterranean dark freely. They maintain small quantities of  faintly phosphorescent rocks all about their lairs, or on their persons  if travelling, which allow them to function easily.

*Combat*
When a rautym senses danger, it uses _psychofeedback _to improve its  Strength, then uses shadow body to sneak behind its enemies.  The rautym  then use cause decay or simply join melee.

 Rautym rely on their _synesthete_ power to sense their surroundings. If plunged into  magical darkness and silence, rautym panic and attempt to flee.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Good suggestions.  Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2010)

Looks pretty good, though I guess I'd rather "often" than "usually" NE.  Not sure why, just feels that way to me.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good, though I guess I'd rather "often" than "usually" NE.  Not sure why, just feels that way to me.




Usually suits me better, but I have no objection to often if it's OK by Shade.

You know, some people might find that last sentence a little confusing.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> You know, some people might find that last sentence a little confusing.




Some people?  Heck, I found it confusing!  

"Often" is fine by me.   Updated.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Some people?  Heck, I found it confusing!
> 
> "Often" is fine by me.   Updated.




They look done then.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

*Spider, Brain*
Climate/Terrain: Subtropical caverns 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Pack 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Brain fluid 
Intelligence: Semi (2-4) 
Treasure: Z 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 1d6 
Armor Class: 2 
Movement: 9, Cl 15 
Hit Dice: 8 
THAC0: 13 
No. of Attacks: 5 
Damage/Attack: 1d4/1d8 (×4) 
Special Attacks: Poison, graft weapons 
Special Defenses: Psionics 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (6’ diameter, including legs) 
Morale: Average (8-10) 
XP Value: 4,000 

Psionics Summary

Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs 
3 2/2/7 EW/IF,MB 15 90 

Telepathy – Science: mind link; Devotions: contact, ego whip, intellect fortress, mind blank.

Psychometabolism – Science: shadow form; Devotions: body equilibrium, double pain, graft weapon.

The brain spider lives off the brain matter of intelligent creatures. Although it is not a true arachnid, its exoskeleton is supported by eight hairy legs and it can climb walls and ceilings with ease. Its body resembles a gray, wrinkled mass of brain tissue, though in fact this is chitinous, not soft and pulpy. It has powerful mandibles capable of injecting venom, and it has four eyes. Brain spiders cannot spin webs.

They speak their own, sibilant language, but in combat with nonpsionic creatures they use telepathy to coordinate attacks.

Combat: Brain spiders generally attack from ambush, dropping onto their victims from a ceiling or other high ground, or suddenly appearing from their psionic shadow form, imposing a -2 penalty upon opponents’ surprise rolls. They prefer to attack in groups, focusing their attacks on one or two victims and then leaving abruptly, hoping their poisonous bites do their work. They have been known to trail a party, waiting for one of the dead to be abandoned so they may feed.

The bite of the brain spider attacks the victim’s central nervous system, first paralyzing and then killing. Unless a successful save vs. poison with a -4 penalty is rolled, the victim is immediately paralyzed and suffers 2d10 points of damage each round until death occurs. During this time, the poison runs rampant through the nerve paths and into the brain, permanently destroying 1 point of Intelligence or Dexterity each round (50% chance of either). When the venom has finished its work, the victim’s nerves are liquified and the brain spider sucks out these juices for nourishment. If the saving throw is successful, the victim is merely paralyzed for one round, and then the effects are shaken off.

In addition to biting, brain spiders can rear up on their hind legs and attack with their four front legs. The sharp points and jagged backhooks on their forelimbs inflict 1d8 points of damage with each attack, and this damage can be greater if they use weapons. Brain spiders often employ their psionic graft weapon ability to bond magical weapons or other objects to their forelimbs. This bond is permanent until a brain spider mentally “rejects” a grafted item. Attacks with these weapons are made with a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (in addition to magical bonus). Bonded wands are hooked into the spider’s nervous system and may be employed as well.

Habitat/Society: Brain spiders have a strict pack dominance hierarchy, and lower-ranked members are completely servile to higher-ranking members. The leader is a crude and brutish tyrant, usually referred to by pompous titles such as Master Thug or King Venom. Pack culture consists of retelling tales of particularly delicious kills, gruesome stallings, and clever prey. Brain spiders think double pain provides particularly good sport with weak prey. They are cowards at heart, quick to flee if one or more of the pack is slain.

Although brain spiders are crude and even stupid, they have remarkable cunning when hunting. One of their favorite tricks is to use their body equilibrium discipline to stand over quicksand, a pit trap, or wreak ledges, goading victims into approaching them, and then attacking the trapped prey.

Ecology: Brain spiders prefer to hunt and kill intelligent and psionic creatures, as these provide the richest cerebral nectar. They dwell underground, where solitary drow and mind flayers sometimes fall into their clutches.

Originally appeared in Dragon Mountain (1993).


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Haven't we already done these, or something very similar to them?

Okay, first things first - Magical Beast or Aberration.

I fancy Aberration just for a change.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

We've done many, _many_, *many* arachnoid monsters, but I don't believe we've done this one.

My vote's for aberration as well.


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## RavinRay (Jan 6, 2011)

_Brain spider_ is also the name of a telepathy spell in the Mind domain in the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_ and _Spell Compendium_. Too bad as an aberration it can't be a material component of that same-named spell.

It's brain-like body reminds me of the intellect devourer. At first I thought it would attack like a brain mole, but it's actually more analogous to a blood-sucker, only this time it's a nerve-sucker!


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2011)

"Nerve-sucker" sounds painful!

We can look to the intellect devourer for inspiration.

Intellect Devourer (S): Str 13, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

This thing is supposedly Medium, so here's how it would look with the usual size adjustments:

Str 17, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14

Int is far lower (2-4), but since they have a language, I'd go with the high end of that range...

Str 17, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 14

The other two mental scores can probably stay the same, as it is an alert hunter and relies on psionics.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2011)

I'd actually bump Wis (to 14?) a little since "they have remarkable cunning."  

Do the PLAs all have good 3.5 equivalents?

My first thoughts: I'd like to find a way to simplify the venom to a more normal poison, but that will require stretching a little from the original mechanics (too bad we can't just use the Pathfinder affliction rules!).

And, for a psionic flavor, we could probably adapt the bonded weapon business from the soulknife somehow.


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## RavinRay (Jan 9, 2011)

Physical stats ok, lower Int and slightly higher Wis ok too. Increase natural AC because of chitin perhaps?

_Graft weapon_ is a 3rd-level psychic warrior power. Maybe this should be an (Su) rather than PLA as it is permanent until the spider ends the effect.

As is, the poison would deal paralysis initial damage, death second damage, and HP damage with Int and Dex drain between those two! It's very potent for me and needs be toned down a bit, I agree.

As for the PLAs, _contact_ is unnecessary in 3.5 psionics as telepathic contact is automatic (we ruled on that in an earlier conversion); the others are all converted with the same name IIRC; double pain might be _inflict pain_ (I'll get back to that).


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2011)

Oh, graft weapon is perfect, forget the soulknife bit.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd actually bump Wis (to 14?) a little since "they have remarkable cunning."
> 
> Do the PLAs all have good 3.5 equivalents?
> 
> Str 17, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 14




That plus Freyar's wish to increase the Wisdom will suit me. The original's AC translates plus the above Dex translates to NA +4.

*Brain Spider:* Str 17, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 14, Cha 14, NA +4



freyar said:


> My first thoughts: I'd like to find a way to simplify the venom to a more normal poison, but that will require stretching a little from the original mechanics (too bad we can't just use the Pathfinder affliction rules!).




Have it do Dex + Con as initial damage and Int + Con as secondary damage?


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

That could work for the poison, and maybe we could throw in some paralysis (1d4 or 1d6 rounds) with the initial damage, too.  

We're sticking with 8HD on these, right?


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> That could work for the poison, and maybe we could throw in some paralysis (1d4 or 1d6 rounds) with the initial damage, too.




Throwing in some Paralysis works for me. I like 1d4 rounds better than 1d6.



freyar said:


> We're sticking with 8HD on these, right?




But of course.

It's no more Hit Dice than a Mind Flayer, and they're the same size.


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2011)

Do the PLAs below convert nicely?


> Psionics Summary
> 
> Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
> 3 2/2/7 EW/IF,MB 15 90
> ...



I think I recognize most of them, but I'm no psionics expert.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do the PLAs below convert nicely?
> 
> I think I recognize most of them, but I'm no psionics expert.




RavinRay addressed a few upthread...



RavinRay said:


> As for the PLAs, _contact_ is unnecessary in 3.5 psionics as telepathic contact is automatic (we ruled on that in an earlier conversion); the others are all converted with the same name IIRC; double pain might be _inflict pain_ (I'll get back to that).


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do the PLAs below convert nicely?
> 
> I think I recognize most of them, but I'm no psionics expert.




Let's see, using the Complete Psionic conversion notes:

mind link = N/A (_empathy_? psion 1st)
ego whip = _ego whip_ (psion 2nd)
intellect fortress = _intellect fortress_ (psion 4th)
mind blank = _personal mind blank_ (psion 7, shadow 6)

shadow form = _shadow body_ (psion 8th lvl)
body equilibrium = _body equilibrium_ (psywarrior/psion 2nd lvl)
double pain = _painful strike_ (psychic warrior 2nd lvl)
graft weapon = _graft weapon_ (psychic warrior 3rd lvl)

The _mind blank_ and _shadow form_ appear awful high level for a creature with a manifestation level of 3rd. Hows about swapping for _concealing amorpha_ and _thought shield_ (both psywarrior/psion 2nd lvl)?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2011)

Those swaps sound pretty reasonable to me.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Those swaps sound pretty reasonable to me.




Okay then, if we're making these PLAs we need to set how often they can use them. What do you think of this:

*At-will*
_body equilibrium_ (psywarrior/psion 2nd lvl)
_concealing amorpha_ (psywarrior/psion 2nd)
_empathy_ (psion 1st)
_painful strike_ (psychic warrior 2nd lvl)

*3/day*
_ego whip_ (psion 2nd)
_graft weapon_ (psychic warrior 3rd lvl)
_thought shield_ (psywarrior/psion 2nd)

*1/day*
_intellect fortress_ (psion 4th)


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## RavinRay (Jan 15, 2011)

According to my search _double pain_ has no exact 3.5e counterpart so we need to write this one up with its own PLA entry. Just need to re-word the 2e entry. If it were a power it would be a 3th-level psion/wlder power costing 7 power points with a range of touch, and possibly a Fortitude save. 


> By touching another person, the psionicist greatly lowers that  character's pain threshold. (Even a little scrape will feel like a  serious injury.) The effect lasts one turn. During that time, all damage  scored against that character is doubled. However, only half of this  damage is real; the other half represents the amplified pain. When the  character's total of real damage and pain reduces his hit points to zero  or less, he passes out. He will regain consciousness 1d10 rounds later.  At that time he also regains "fake" hit points-those lost only to pain. If the victim does not pass out in one turn (the duration of this  power's effects), damage scored against him is no longer doubled.  However, the points of "pain damage" which he has an already incurred  will remain in effect for another ld6 rounds.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> According to my search _double pain_ has no exact 3.5e counterpart so we need to write this one up with its own PLA entry. Just need to re-word the 2e entry. If it were a power it would be a 3th-level psion/wlder power costing 7 power points with a range of touch, and possibly a Fortitude save.




So you'd rather have something closer to the AD&D version than 3E's _painful strike_.

Doubling hit point damage is pretty nasty, I would rather it do a set amount of additional damage. How about it works like _painful strike_ except the additional damage is non-lethal?


----------



## RavinRay (Jan 17, 2011)

So any damage dealt to the target deals an equal amount of non-lethal damage that the target can sense. Want to give it shades of _inflict pain_ (the agony part)?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> So any damage dealt to the target deals an equal amount of non-lethal damage that the target can sense. Want to give it shades of _inflict pain_ (the agony part)?




No, I was suggesting it do something like +1dX nonlethal damage.

The problem with adding equal nonlethal damage is it makes high-damage attacks too effective, since it's doubling the damage.

The _painful strike_ already does +1d6 nonlethal, so basically it's a _painful strike _that affects all attacks that hit the target, instead of all the natural attacks the psychic warrior who manifested it makes.



RavinRay said:


> Want to give it shades of _inflict pain_ (the agony part)?




I don't want to add an attack/skill/ability penalty if that's what you mean, but I would be OK if the power either increased the DC of pain effects (e.g. -2 on saves against _inflict pain_ or _symbol of pain_) or increased the penalties of pain effects (e.g. an additional -1 on a failed save, so _inflict pain_ imposes a -5 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks instead of -4).

EDIT: However, just giving it _painful strike_ would suit me just as well as creating a new power.


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2011)

Painful strike sounds probably close enough, but we modify it as Cleon suggests if desired.


----------



## RavinRay (Jan 19, 2011)

Ok, let's modify painful strike to add a lingering effect. I prefer the first option (e.g. -2 on saves against _inflict pain_ or _symbol of pain_).


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Ok, let's modify painful strike to add a lingering effect. I prefer the first option (e.g. -2 on saves against _inflict pain_ or _symbol of pain_).




Do you prefer lethal damage like _painful strike_ or the nonlethal version proposed earlier?


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Sounds like nonlethal.  But if we're making that modification, I'm not sure about adding the lingering vulnerability to "pain effects."


----------



## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds like nonlethal.  But if we're making that modification, I'm not sure about adding the lingering vulnerability to "pain effects."




Shall we rough something out, then? How's this for a start:

_*Double Pain*_
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] (_or Psychometabolism?_)
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates? (*Fort negates if Psychometabolism?*)
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3

The target becomes abnormally sensitive to pain for the duration of the power. Each successful attack against your foe (regardless of source) deals an extra 1d6 points of nonlethal damage to the target.

Augment
For every additional power power point you spend the duration increases by 1 round, for every 2 additional power points you spend the DC increases by 1.


----------



## freyar (Jan 22, 2011)

That will work for me!


----------



## RavinRay (Jan 24, 2011)

Ditto! Or should I say, deja vu!


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

Nice work!  Let's go with Telepathy/Will save.

Updated.

Have we figured out the daily uses for all the PLAs yet?


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Okay then, if we're making these PLAs we need to set how often they can use them. What do you think of this:
> 
> *At-will*
> _body equilibrium_ (psywarrior/psion 2nd lvl)
> ...




Swap painful strike -> double pain, and that should do it.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nice work!  Let's go with Telepathy/Will save.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Have we figured out the daily uses for all the PLAs yet?






freyar said:


> Cleon said:
> 
> 
> > Okay then, if we're making these PLAs we need to  set how often they can use them. What do you think of this:
> ...




That's Fine by me:

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ps):* At-will—_body equilibrium_, _concealing amorpha_, _double pain_ (new power), _empathy_; 3/day—_ego whip, __graft weapon_, _thought shield_; 1/day—_intellect fortress_.


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 27, 2011)

Back to the poison: 1d6 Dex and 1d6 Con and 1d4 rounds paralysis/1d6 Con?  That's maybe too good compared to the slightly wimpier wyvern.  Cut to 1d4 Con each time?


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Back to the poison: 1d6 Dex and 1d6 Con and 1d4 rounds paralysis/1d6 Con?  That's maybe too good compared to the slightly wimpier wyvern.  Cut to 1d4 Con each time?




1d4 ability damage is fine. That's the damage of a Medium Monstrous Spider, after all.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

So this?

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage 1d6 Dex and 1d4 Con and paralysis for 1d4 rounds), secondary damage 1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Jan 28, 2011)

That's fine if we don't think it's too strong.  Could maybe cut the paralysis to 1d3 round.  We should definitely cut the extra ")" after the paralysis duration, too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's fine if we don't think it's too strong.  Could maybe cut the paralysis to 1d3 round.  We should definitely cut the extra ")" after the paralysis duration, too.




Looks fine to me too, save for the excess parenthesis.


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 3, 2011)

Same here, 1d3 or 1d4 for paralysis is ok with me.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Same here, 1d3 or 1d4 for paralysis is ok with me.




So are we keeping the paralysis 1d4 rounds or changing it to 1d3?


----------



## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So are we keeping the paralysis 1d4 rounds or changing it to 1d3?




Let's go 1d3.  Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's go 1d3.  Updated.




That's OK by me.

That looks like the special abilities are done.

Shall we give them any of a Monstrous Spider's racial skill bonuses?


----------



## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Shall we give them any of a Monstrous Spider's racial skill bonuses?




I could see giving 'em most of the hunting spider's skill bonuses.


----------



## freyar (Feb 8, 2011)

Agreed to that.


----------



## Shade (Feb 8, 2011)

Updated.



> Brain spiders generally attack from ambush, dropping onto their victims from a ceiling or other high ground, or suddenly appearing from their psionic shadow form, imposing a -2 penalty upon opponents’ surprise rolls. They prefer to attack in groups, focusing their attacks on one or two victims and then leaving abruptly, hoping their poisonous bites do their work. They have been known to trail a party, waiting for one of the dead to be abandoned so they may feed.






> Brain spiders generally attack from ambush, dropping onto their victims from a ceiling or other high ground, or suddenly appearing from their psionic shadow form, imposing a -2 penalty upon opponents’ surprise rolls. They prefer to attack in groups, focusing their attacks on one or two victims and then leaving abruptly, hoping their poisonous bites do their work. They have been known to trail a party, waiting for one of the dead to be abandoned so they may feed.




Skills: 11 ranks
Bluff, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Spot?

Feats: 3
Multiattack?  Improved Inititative?  Track?  (If so, ranks in Survival)?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 11 ranks
> Bluff, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Spot?




Why the Bluff?



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Multiattack?  Improved Inititative?  Track?  (If so, ranks in Survival)?




The evidence for tracking seems a bit thin, but Multiattach and Improved Initiative are fine.

The Brain spider's poisoned bite original had a -4 penalty to saves vs. poison, so maybe Ability Focus (poison)?


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Why the Bluff?




Oops.  I quoted the same original text twice in my previous post.  This was intended to explain the Bluff...



> Although brain spiders are crude and even stupid, they have remarkable cunning when hunting. One of their favorite tricks is to use their body equilibrium discipline to stand over quicksand, a pit trap, or wreak ledges, goading victims into approaching them, and then attacking the trapped prey.






Cleon said:


> The evidence for tracking seems a bit thin, but Multiattach and Improved Initiative are fine.
> 
> The Brain spider's poisoned bite original had a -4 penalty to saves vs. poison, so maybe Ability Focus (poison)?




I'm fine with that, as the similar phase spider has that very feat.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Oops.  I quoted the same original text twice in my previous post.  This was intended to explain the Bluff...




Wouldn't they need a racial bonus to Bluff to have a modifier high enough to be of much use to CR-appropriate foes?



Shade said:


> I'm fine with that, as the similar phase spider has that very feat.




Although Phase Spiders only have a -2 on saves in AD&D vs the Brain Spider's -4 (which is about as toxic as it gets for 1E/2E).

Perhaps give them a racial bonus to poison DC and substitute another feat for AF?

Say, +4 racial to poison and the feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative and Multiattack?


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Wouldn't they need a racial bonus to Bluff to have a modifier high enough to be of much use to CR-appropriate foes?




Probably, although I can live with one if others want it.



Cleon said:


> Although Phase Spiders only have a -2 on saves in AD&D vs the Brain Spider's -4 (which is about as toxic as it gets for 1E/2E).
> 
> Perhaps give them a racial bonus to poison DC and substitute another feat for AF?
> 
> Say, +4 racial to poison and the feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative and Multiattack?




That appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Probably, although I can live with one if others want it.




+6 racial on Bluff? I'd like to limit it to "Brain spiders have a +6 racial bonus on Bluff checks when feinting in combat or creating a diversion to Hide".



Shade said:


> That appeals.




Make the feats so!


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm content with that.

Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm underground?

Organization: Solitary or pack (2–6)?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x

Alignment: Always lawful evil?

Advancement: x


----------



## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm content with that.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Challenge Rating a strong 6? They've got potent poison, PLAs and do good damage. I'd make them CR 7 if they didn't have mediocre Fort/Ref saves.

Their treasure type's pretty respectable:

*Treasure Type Z
*100-300 copper pieces
100-400 silver pieces
100-600 gold pieces
100-400 platinum or electrum pieces
1-6 gems: 55%
2-12 art objects: 50%
Any 3 magical items: 50%

That looks like "Treasure: Standard" to me.

I'd think Advancement would follow the Phase Spider's lead:

*Advancement:* 9-11 HD (Medium); 12-24 HD (Large).


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Updated, and added flavor text and tactics.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated, and added flavor text and tactics.




I'd add a mention of its forelegs' offensive weaponry to the description:

How's this:

_This arachnoid creature resembles a gray, wrinkled brain supported by eight hairy legs.  Its four front legs__ are armed__ with a sharp thrusting point and __jagged backhooks. Powerful mandibles chitter and drool from beneath its four dark eyes._

I have a suspicion the original text has a typo and "gruesome stallings" should be "gruesome stalkings".

Half the weight of a Phase Spider? 350 pounds.

The rest of it looks fine.


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

What's with all the psionic arachnoids?

*Spider, Hook*
Climate/Terrain: Acheron, Baator, Gehenna 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Nest 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: A 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 2-8 
Armor Class: 5 
Movement: 9, Jp 6 
Hit Dice: 4+4 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 3 
Damage/Attack: 1d4/1d4/1d6 + poison 
Special Attacks: Hook, poison, psionics 
Special Defenses: Camouflage 
Magic Resistance: None 
Size: M (4’ long body) 
Morale: Elite (13-14) 
XP Value: 975 

Psionics Summary

Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs 
3 2/2/7 -/MB,M- 12 45 

Psychometabolism – Science: shadow form; Devotions: body control, body equilibrium, chameleon power, reduction.

Telepathy – Science: mind link; Devotions: contact, attraction, invisibility.

Spiders of all kinds are fairly common throughout the Outlands and the Great Wheel. Normal-size hunters and web-spinners can be found in the strangest places, surviving where no other mundane animals can. Even the large, huge, and giant varieties’re surprisingly successful, and there are more than a few minor fiends or aasimon who’ve ended up as a spider’s dinner on their own home plane. The creature known as the hook spider’s simply a giant spider that’s adapted to life in a particularly dangerous and desolate corner of the multiverse: the Lower Planes.

The body of a book spider’s about the size of a goat’s or large dog’s, but each of its legs is as long as a man is tall. The two forwardmost legs aren’t used for walking, but are instead equipped with powerful, inward-curving claws or hooks to snag and hold prey. The spider’s mandibles are powerful enough to pierce plate armor. Unlike those of many normal spiders, each of the hook spider’s eight eyes are primary eyes. The eyes are arranged high on the creature’s head, giving it 360-degree vision. The hook spider’s naturally a dull yellow color with red markings, but it’s rarely found in this coloration thanks to its psionic chameleon power (see “Combat” below).

Hook spiders are almost as intelligent as human beings, and demonstrate a diabolical patience and skill in hunting. They create traps made from materials on hand and their own webbing, they use stealth to surprise their prey, and packs of spiders operate wifb perfect coordination. Worse yet, hook spiders’ve developed some rudimentary psionic skills to help them take their prey.

Combat: Hook spiders make every effort possible to attack only from ambush or while the potential meal is helpless. When the time comes to strike, the hook spider can leap up to 60 feet from concealment, giving its target a -2 penalty to its surprise check. The spider attacks with its two hooked claws and a bite of its venomous mandibles. If it hits the same man-size or smaller target with both claws, the victim is held pinned and helpless, and the bite attack automatically succeeds. The victim can escape the spider’s grasp with a successful open doors check.

A creature bitten by the hook spider must successfully save versus poison or suffer an additional 25 hp of damage, or 2 to 8 points of damage if the save is successful. The onset time is two rounds, so a victim suffers no immediate effect in the round he’s bitten or in the following round. Hook spider venom quickly loses its potency if removed from the spider, becoming inert within 1d3 turns.

Hook spiders frequently use their psionic powers to ensure that they’ll be able to surprise their opponents. They’re especially fond of using chameleon power or invisibility to prevent their intended meal from noticing their presence, or using shadow form or reduction to creep within striking distance undetected. If the spider successfully uses its psionic powers to completely mask its presence, it gains automatic surprise when it strikes.

Hook spiders aren’t web-spinners, but they do use their strong silk to create trap-door hatches or blinds to hunt from. They occasionally use their silk to create traps such as nets or lassoes that the spider tends with its front legs. There is a 20% chance (30% for rangers, druids, or other such characters) that the victim spots the trap before walking into it. The spider must make an attack roll to spring the trap, but only the victim’s Dexterity and magical adjustments help him evade the spider’s net – armor itself doesn’t count. The victim may attempt a saving throw versus paralyzation to avoid being netted or bound, but if he fails he’s securely trapped and can escape only with a bend hars/lift gates roll or a full turn of work with a dagger or other small edged weapon. Hook spiders love to trap as many members of a group as they can, and then attack the untrapped characters before returning to finish off the victims who were snared by their ambush.

Habitat/Society: Hook spiders live in small groups called nests or clutches. The adults of a nest are always siblings. Unlike most other spiders, hook spiders are social creatures that cooperate closely to catch their prey. They’re careful to let powerful fiends or lower-planar denizens pass by unmolested, but any thing weaker than an abishai or rutterkin’s fair game.

The spiders like to choose a single small area and carefully build it into a complex lair and hunting ground. For example, a nest of hook spiders might take over a small grove, a rocky outcropping, or a spring or pond. A labyrinth of small burrows’ll be dug beneath and around the area, providing the spiders with a number of bolt-holes and ambush sites. Traps’ll be laid in places where meals are likely to come by. The hook spiders make sure that their presence is well-collcealed, and it’s not uncommon for a band of bashers to walk right into the middle of the spiders’ lair without realizing anything’s wrong.

Hook spiders are capable of communicating with other creatures by means of their telepathic power, but they rarely do so. They’re inclined to honor agreements or contracts, but they’re very shortsighted – if a hook spider doesn’t see an immediate gain for itself, it won’t bother to strike a deal. In some cases, ambitious fiends’ve been known to lure meals into the spiders’ den in exchange for the spiders’ elimination of rivals, enemies, or troublemakers.

Ecology: A nest of hook spiders normally comprises 2 to 8 adults, and anywhere from 10 to 30 spiderlings equal to large spiders in all respects save intelligence. Spiderlings avoid large prey such as humans or fiends, preferring to let the adults deal with these meals and feeding on the leftovers. Unlike most spiders, hook spiders lay only 3 to 6 eggs at a time and invest a moderate amount of time and care in feeding and protecting their young.

Although hook spiders are certainly dangerous and cunning predators, they’re often not very high on the food chain in some of their infernal habitats. They compensate hy cooperation against victims of moderate power, and they avoid contact with more powerful creatures. Typically, creatures such as nupperibo, lemures, spinagons, ahishai, or petitioners are preyed upon, but greater haatezu and creatures of similar size are left alone.

Originally appeared in Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II (1995).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Yes, except (a) it should be "liquefied", not "liquified" in the second flavour paragraph, and (b) "detach" not "deattach" at the end of the Graft Weapon SQ.



Shade said:


> What's with all the psionic arachnoids?




The illlithids bred them as an excuse for calling their ships Mindspiders.



Shade said:


> *Spider, Hook*(1995).




These look like Magical Beasts (Extraplanar, Psionic) to me.

Maybe do a "half step" size downgrade of the Phase Spider's abilities? Assuming we decide on PLA's over power manifestation, boost the Charisma to 14 or so to power its PLAs?
*
Phase Spider:* Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 10

*Hook Spider:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 14, NA +2 ?


----------



## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

Magical Beast looks right.  And the abilities are fine.

Looks like these should have our bite version of rend.  We called that "maul" IIRC, but that doesn't sound right for a spider.  The description of the hook legs also makes them sound like they should have Imp Grab, though it's not specifically mentioned.


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks like these should have our bite version of rend. We called that "maul" IIRC, but that doesn't sound right for a spider. The description of the hook legs also makes them sound like they should have Imp Grab, though it's not specifically mentioned.



Maybe "shred" sounds like a better fit, and I like your idea of Improved Grab.


----------



## Shade (Feb 18, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.



> Psionics Summary
> 
> Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
> 3 2/2/7 -/MB,M- 12 45
> ...




MB,M = mind blank and mental barrier
attraction
body equilibrium
shadow form = shadow body
body control = adapt body
chameleon power = chameleon
reduction = compression
contact = ?
invisibility = SLA?

We'll need to figure out a manifester level, usages per day, and a 3.5 equivalent for contact.



> The spider’s mandibles are powerful enough to pierce plate armor.




The claws appear to be the primary attack, but this suggests powerful bite and possibly some ignoring of hardness.

Reuse this?

Powerful Bite (Ex): A walking dead's jaws are extraordinarily powerful. It applies 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier to damage done with its bite. 

...and/or this...

Adamantine Bite (Ex): A leucrotta deals bite damage as if its teeth were magic adamantine weapons both for purposes of bypassing the hardness of objects and for overcoming damage reduction. On a critical hit, a leucrotta's bite deals triple damage. A leucrotta often attacks its opponents weapons and shields.



> Unlike those of many normal spiders, each of the hook spider’s eight eyes are primary eyes. The eyes are arranged high on the creature’s head, giving it 360-degree vision.




All-around vision?



> Hook spiders are almost as intelligent as human beings, and demonstrate a diabolical patience and skill in hunting. They create traps made from materials on hand and their own webbing, they use stealth to surprise their prey, and packs of spiders operate wifh perfect coordination.




This suggests Craft (trapmaking) ranks, and possibly a racial bonus, as well as the usual racial bonuses for hunting spiders.


----------



## freyar (Feb 19, 2011)

I think what you put in for "maul" is what we've been calling "gnaw," which is more like constrict than rend.  I was thinking

Maul (Ex): If a hook spider hits with both claw attacks, it automatically bites doing 1d6 damage and exposing the victim to poison.

Definitely all-around vision.

I think I'd go with both powerful bite and adamantine bite.  That would require changing the bite damage in maul, too.

Agreed on trapmaking.

EDIT: I think RavinRay said somewhere upthread that contact isn't necessary in 3.5 psionics.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think what you put in for "maul" is what we've been calling "gnaw," which is more like constrict than rend.  I was thinking
> 
> Maul (Ex): If a hook spider hits with both claw attacks, it automatically bites doing 1d6 damage and exposing the victim to poison.




That's fine by me.



freyar said:


> Definitely all-around vision.




Likewise.



freyar said:


> I think I'd go with both powerful bite and adamantine bite.  That would require changing the bite damage in maul, too.




I wouldn't bother with either. We can just give it 1.5 Str bonus to its bite (like a dragon) without needing to clutter up space with a SA to justify it. The biting through plate armour bit just seems to be puffery to me, like saying a monster could "kill a strong warrior with one swipe of a claw". Besides, (a) there's no mention of it gnawing through stone or doing anything else adamantine jaws would allow, and (b) it doesn't need any special attack to pierce plate - any creature can injure a foe in plate armour if their attack roll is high enough!



freyar said:


> Agreed on trapmaking.




Yes, trapmaking's good.



freyar said:


> EDIT: I think RavinRay said somewhere upthread that contact isn't necessary in 3.5 psionics.




RavinRay was right too. Many of the 2E mind-attack psionics required the attacker to establish a link to the opponent's mind, which was what the Contact power was for.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 20, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Maybe "shred" sounds like a better fit, and I like your idea of Improved Grab.




Oh, and Improved Grab is good. Those hooks ought to be good for something!

Shouldn't we add an "auto-grab" effect to the maul, since it pins its opponent?


----------



## RavinRay (Feb 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> invisibility = SLA?



Yes. Just like the duergar's.

At least in the Marvel Universe invisibility can be psionic, just ask Susan Storm Richards.


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> EDIT: I think RavinRay said somewhere upthread that contact isn't necessary in 3.5 psionics.




Ahh, missed that.  Thanks!



Cleon said:


> I wouldn't bother with either. We can just give it 1.5 Str bonus to its bite (like a dragon) without needing to clutter up space with a SA to justify it. The biting through plate armour bit just seems to be puffery to me, like saying a monster could "kill a strong warrior with one swipe of a claw". Besides, (a) there's no mention of it gnawing through stone or doing anything else adamantine jaws would allow, and (b) it doesn't need any special attack to pierce plate - any creature can injure a foe in plate armour if their attack roll is high enough!




I'll agree on dropping the adamantine bite, but powerful bite has been used several times in official sources for non-dragons that need extra Str bonus on secondary attacks.  Dragons explicitly spell out the bite doing extra damage in their overview section, so in a way they do go to the trouble to point it out.



Cleon said:


> Shouldn't we add an "auto-grab" effect to the maul, since it pins its opponent?




We can expand improved grab to include the bite, or simply note in the maul writeup that grappled creatures are automatically pinned.



RavinRay said:


> Yes. Just like the duergar's.
> 
> At least in the Marvel Universe invisibility can be psionic, just ask Susan Storm Richards.




Indeed!  I always find it odd that "psionic invisibility" isn't a power.  

Updated.

We still need a a manifester level and usages per day for the PLAs:

adapt body
attraction
body equilibrium
chameleon
compression
mental barrier
mind blank 
shadow body


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll agree on dropping the adamantine bite, but powerful bite has been used several times in official sources for non-dragons that need extra Str bonus on secondary attacks.  Dragons explicitly spell out the bite doing extra damage in their overview section, so in a way they do go to the trouble to point it out.
> 
> We can expand improved grab to include the bite, or simply note in the maul writeup that grappled creatures are automatically pinned.




I'm OK with powerful bite, and somewhat prefer the "auto-pin maul".



Shade said:


> Indeed!  I always find it odd that "psionic invisibility" isn't a power.




It was in AD&D.



Shade said:


> We still need a a manifester level and usages per day for the PLAs:
> 
> adapt body
> attraction
> ...




My first thought was either Manifester level 3 like the original monster or 5 to match its HD. Some of its powers are high level though (e.g. _shadow body's_ 8th level), so maybe we should go for manifester level 10 or something?

It doesn't have any attack powers, so it isn't that overwhelming.

As for usages, how's this:


adapt body 3/day
attraction 3/day
body equilibrium At will
chameleon At will
compression 3/day
mental barrier 3/day
mind blank, personal 1/day
shadow body 1/day

I'm presuming the mind blank is the personal variety.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Skills & Feats next?

Divide its 7 skill points between Craft (trapmaking), Move Silently and Listen?

3 in MS and Listen and 1 in trapmaking?

Multiattack and Weapon Finesse for the feats?


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Nice selection.  Updated.

Challenge Rating: 4?

Treasure: x
2e Type A looks like double or even triple standard for their power level!

Alignment: Always lawful evil?

Advancement: x

A typical hook spider’s body is 4 feet long. It weighs about x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Mar 6, 2011)

Invisibility needs a CL.  Maybe 4th for the HD?

CR 4 is probably fair given all the PLAs, but they're a little squishy.  CR 3 might be better.

We need to finalize the poison, too.  


> A creature bitten by the hook spider must successfully save versus poison or suffer an additional 25 hp of damage, or 2 to 8 points of damage if the save is successful. The onset time is two rounds, so a victim suffers no immediate effect in the round he’s bitten or in the following round. Hook spider venom quickly loses its potency if removed from the spider, becoming inert within 1d3 turns.



Just 1d4 Con/1d4 Con?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nice selection.  Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 4?




CR 4 is OK if the poison is reasonably potent, they've got a decent suite of attacks and defences.



Shade said:


> Treasure: x
> 2e Type A looks like double or even triple standard for their power level!




Double treasure's enough for me.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Always lawful evil?




Sure, it fits their home plane(s).



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large) ?



Shade said:


> A typical hook spider’s body is 4 feet long. It weighs about x pounds.




That's half as long as a phase spider, suggesting about one-eighth the weight.

That'd be 87.5 pounds, so round it up to 100 pounds?


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> CR 4 is probably fair given all the PLAs, but they're a little squishy.  CR 3 might be better.
> 
> We need to finalize the poison, too.
> 
> Just 1d4 Con/1d4 Con?






Cleon said:


> CR 4 is OK if the poison is reasonably potent, they've got a decent suite of attacks and defences.




Since the phase spider is 1d8 Con/1d8 Con, how about we go with 1d6 Con/1d6 Con to achieve "reasonably potent" status and thus earn its CR 4?

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since the phase spider is 1d8 Con/1d8 Con, how about we go with 1d6 Con/1d6 Con to achieve "reasonably potent" status and thus earn its CR 4?
> 
> Updated.




d6/d6 was what I was considering - great mind think alike!


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Winning!  

Are we finished with this one?


----------



## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

Looks good to go!


----------



## Cleon (Mar 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Winning!
> 
> Are we finished with this one?




The "Additiionally" in the first paragraph has an i too many.

Do you fancy an underbar for the less intelligent but physically adept Spiderlings?

Cut Intelligence to 3-4 and lower the skills to go with the reduced Int?

Do we want to strip out the psionics and SLAs from the Spiderlings or leave them in? The original text says they're "equal in all respects save intelligence", so I guess they keep the spell-like/psionic powers.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Do you fancy an underbar for the less intelligent but physically adept Spiderlings?
> 
> Cut Intelligence to 3-4 and lower the skills to go with the reduced Int?




I suppose we could, although they wouldn't lose any skill points and have no Int-based skills, so the stats are otherwise identical.



Cleon said:


> Do we want to strip out the psionics and SLAs from the Spiderlings or leave them in? The original text says they're "equal in all respects save intelligence", so I guess they keep the spell-like/psionic powers.




Yeah, I'd say that means "keep 'em", unless we want to take some creative liberties.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I suppose we could, although they wouldn't lose any skill points and have no Int-based skills, so the stats are otherwise identical.
> 
> Yeah, I'd say that means "keep 'em", unless we want to take some creative liberties.




Yes, it does seem rather pointless doing a statblock. We could just add "spiderlings are less intelligent (Int X) but the rest of their statistics are identical to the adults" to the flavour.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Updated.  Finished now?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished now?




I'd make the Spiderlings Int 3 or 5, so it's an even adjustment (-2 or -4) from the adult's Int 7.

Apart from that quibble I think we're done with them.


----------



## freyar (Mar 14, 2011)

Good enough for me!


----------



## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

Next?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

*Leech, Psionic*
Climate/Terrain: Ravenloft wetlands 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Psionic energy 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 5-30 (5d6) 
Armor Class: 10 
Movement: 0, Sw 3 
Hit Dice: 1 hit point 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: Nil 
Damage/Attack: Nil 
Special Attacks: Psionic Drain 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (1’) 
Morale: Steady (12) 
XP Value: 15 

These disgusting leeches lurk in ponds, swamps, or other wet areas, waiting to drain the mental energies of any psionicists unlucky enough to wander into their midst.

Physically they look little different from their magical or natural cousins, save for a distinctive bluish tinge to their rubbery black hide and the faint aura of crimson light that can be seen to surround them in darkness.

Psionic leeches do not have ability to communicate with other creatures.

Combat: Psionic leeches drain mental energy in much the same way that magical leeches drain the mystical powers of wizards and priests. Because psionic energy is much less common than magical energy in the realm of Ravenloft, psionic leeches have become very efficient parasites, Every leech can drain 1 Psionic Strength Point per turn from any creature within 1 yard.

Detecting a psionic leech is difficult as their slow absorption of energy isn’t likely to alert most victims. The percentage chance that a character will notice the drain is equal to the number of psionic points stolen by the parasites. The victim should be allowed to attempt this check once per turn.

Once alerted, the host will still have to find the creatures if the drain is to be halted. This can be difficult as the foul creatures crawl into the wrinkles of clothing, downturned cuffs, boots, or even the joints of armor. Finding each leech requires an intelligence check and takes 1 round.

Removing the creatures from their chosen hiding place is even more difficult than finding them. When touched, psionic leeches release their energy in the form of a psychic blast that causes 1 point of damage for every PSP stolen by the leech in the last 8 hours. Mental defenses such as tower of iron will or mindblank can reduce the draining effects of the leech or the damage caused by its psychic blast by half.

Psionic leeches are able to sense the mind of a psionicist even when he has expended all of his PSPs. This does not deter the creatures from attempting to feed upon that mind. When this happens, the target must make a madness check each round. Only one check is required, no matter how many leeches are attempting to feed upon his depleted mind.

Habitat/Society: Psionic leeches have no communal structure, but are generally found in groups of 5-30 (5d6) members. They prefer wetlands like swamps and marshes, but can also be found in open ponds, wet grasses, or slow-moving streams. Anyone passing through one of their nests will pick up 1d6 of the parasites.

Psionic leeches have tiny hooks along the edges of their flat bodies that catch on clothing or fur. This allows them to cling to their host tenaciously, dropping off only when the psionic powers of the victim have been exhausted or a better source of food comes along.

Ecology: Psionic leeches bloat with stolen energy until they become too large and fall from their host. At this point they slowly crawl to the nearest wetland and give birth to 1-6 more leeches in 3d4 days.

Originally appeared in Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness (1994).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Leech, Psionic*
> 
> Originally appeared in Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness (1994).




These look rather like a hazard, but I suspect _someone_ would prefer making them a full monster. 

Maybe borrow Eat Thoughts from the SRD Thought Eater?


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> These look rather like a hazard, but I suspect _someone_ would prefer making them a full monster.




Who is this person?  

Anyway, we've got precedence for creature here.   See the giant leech in Stormwrack.  

We can downsize it to Tiny, giving us...

Small Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (1 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: Swim 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Touch +4 melee (attach)
Full Attack: Touch +4 melee (attach)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, drain psionics, psychic blast 
Special Qualities: Blindsight 10 ft., detect psionics, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will -1
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 14, Con 11, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +18, Swim +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm marsh
Organization: Colony (2-5) or swarm (6-11)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Attach (Ex): If a psionic leech hits with its touch attack, it uses the tiny hooks along its body to latch onto the opponent’s body. It deals no additional damage when it is attached. An attached leech loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12.

An attached psionic leech can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached leech through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.

Skills: Psionic leeches have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A giant leech has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Is there a conversion of the magical leeches that the original text mentions?


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 15, 2011)

This ought to be a magic beast then. The text doesn't explicitly mention how the leech benefits from the drained power points, ie. converted to hit points, etc. Also I think a brain mole might be a better model since it doesn't need to touch its targets and it has the _power leech_ PLA.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

I'd certainly agree to magical beast.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> This ought to be a magic beast then. The text doesn't explicitly mention how the leech benefits from the drained power points, ie. converted to hit points, etc. Also I think a brain mole might be a better model since it doesn't need to touch its targets and it has the _power leech_ PLA.




Firstly, they have a "Diet: Psionic energy", so presumably the power points act as nourishment.

Secondly, it says they use the power points to power a psychic blast:
Removing the creatures from their chosen hiding place is even more  difficult than finding them. When touched, psionic leeches release their  energy in the form of a psychic blast that causes 1 point of damage for  every PSP stolen by the leech in the last 8 hours. Mental defenses such  as tower of iron will or mindblank can reduce the draining effects of  the leech or the damage caused by its psychic blast by half.​Thirdly, a leech satiated on power will reproduce:
Ecology: Psionic leeches bloat with stolen energy until they become too  large and fall from their host. At this point they slowly crawl to the  nearest wetland and give birth to 1-6 more leeches in 3d4 days.​Seems pretty clear.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd certainly agree to magical beast.




...but then we'd have an argument about them Mindless Magical Beasts. Again. 

I don't much mind either way.

So long as they're "Int: -".


----------



## freyar (Apr 16, 2011)

Can vermin have psionic powers (or Su or Sp)???

Can we find a precedent for mindless magical beasts?  Maybe hellwasps, sort of.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 17, 2011)

Ugh, not this again.

I am more willing to accept a mindless elemental than a mindless magical beast.


----------



## RavinRay (Apr 17, 2011)

Well, the spidery ectoplasmic swarm from _Complete Psionic_ is a magical beast with Int —.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 17, 2011)

It's not an official source, but Green Ronin's _Monsters of the Mind_ includes the daiken swarm, a mindless psionic vermin.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Can vermin have psionic powers (or Su or Sp)???
> 
> Can we find a precedent for mindless magical beasts?  Maybe hellwasps, sort of.




I think they'd work better as Mindless Magical Beasts than Psionic Vermin.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't. A mindless magical beast is just wrong. The description in Monster Manual doesn't say anything about them being mindless.

I'd rather see them done as a hazard than a mindless magical beast.


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

I'd tend to agree with GrayLinnorm, though this would be the closest thing to an exception.  But could we go with Int 1?  Anyone know about the magical leeches?

Shade?


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd tend to agree with GrayLinnorm, though this would be the closest thing to an exception.  But could we go with Int 1?  Anyone know about the magical leeches?
> 
> Shade?




I'm not aware of a conversion of the magical leeches.   I'm happy with Int 1 magical beast.  We've seen semi-intelligent worms, amoebas, and the like, so a leech isn't much of a stretch.


----------



## freyar (Apr 20, 2011)

Ok, then, Int 1 Magical Beast seems like the winner. Go with the suggested Str 2, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 2 in that case?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then, Int 1 Magical Beast seems like the winner. Go with the suggested Str 2, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 2 in that case?




Isn't that Dex too high for a Leech?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Isn't that Dex too high for a Leech?




The giant leech in Stormwrack is Dex 12, and these are smaller (thus usually more Dextrous) and could perhaps be "juiced" by stolen power points.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> The giant leech in Stormwrack is Dex 12, and these are smaller (thus usually more Dextrous) and could perhaps be "juiced" by stolen power points.




Yes, I know where it derived from, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2011)

Who says leaches can't be agile?  That said, I don't care if we want to drop it a couple of points.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

I'll agree to Dex 12.


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## RavinRay (Apr 26, 2011)

Dex 12 is agile enough for me too.


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Boy, these are contentious little beasties, aren't they?  What's next for them?


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## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Dex 12 is agile enough for me too.




I can tolerate that.


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

How do we want to do the draining?  Can absorb a power point per round/minute/?, Will save negates?  Victim doesn't know about it?


----------



## Cleon (May 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> How do we want to do the draining?  Can absorb a power point per round/minute/?, Will save negates?  Victim doesn't know about it?




Yes something like that.

We can also turn to the SRD Psionic Monsters for some inspiration. For example, the Brain Mole uses _power leech_ and Power Conversion.

*Power Conversion (Su):* When a brain mole drains a power point by  means of its _power leech_ power, it immediately heals 1 hit point. If it  is already at full normal hit points, it instead gains psionic  sustenance sufficient to supply its need for nourishment for 24 hours. 

*Power Leech*
Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:  Psion/wilder 4
Display: Visual; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Any psionic creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7

Your brow erupts with an arc of crackling dark energy that connects with your foe, draining it of 1d6 power points and adding 1 of those points to your reserve (unless that gain would cause you to exceed your maximum).

The drain continues in each round you maintain concentration while the subject of the drain remains in range. If the subject is drained to 0 power points, this power ends.

Concentrating to maintain power leech is a full-round action (you can take no other actions aside from a 5-foot step) instead of a standard action.


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## freyar (May 3, 2011)

Ok, I looked back but didn't see if anyone had suggested something already.  I like the power conversion, but I do have some reservations about power leech, especially the rate of power point drain (seems kind of high).  Then again, maybe I just don't know how many power points someone would have.


----------



## Cleon (May 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, I looked back but didn't see if anyone had suggested something already.  I like the power conversion, but I do have some reservations about power leech, especially the rate of power point drain (seems kind of high).  Then again, maybe I just don't know how many power points someone would have.




Yes, I wasn't going to copy it over exactly. Probably make it 1 point of power per round (or even minute), with a range in feet or inches.


----------



## freyar (May 9, 2011)

1 per minute, 1 ft range works for me.  Does the leech need a power point reserve?  What do the points do?


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> 1 per minute, 1 ft range works for me.  Does the leech need a power point reserve?  What do the points do?




This:



> When touched, psionic leeches release their energy in the form of a psychic blast that causes 1 point of damage for every PSP stolen by the leech in the last 8 hours. Mental defenses such as tower of iron will or mindblank can reduce the draining effects of the leech or the damage caused by its psychic blast by half.


----------



## freyar (May 9, 2011)

Ahh, right.  So I guess we really need two abilities tied together.  I think I'd drop the mindblank stuff and just go with the will save (as in the power leech power and psionic blast).  For the "blast," just base it on psionic blast?  That doesn't do hp damage but seems more appropriate flavor-wise.


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ahh, right.  So I guess we really need two abilities tied together.  I think I'd drop the mindblank stuff and just go with the will save (as in the power leech power and psionic blast).  For the "blast," just base it on psionic blast?  That doesn't do hp damage but seems more appropriate flavor-wise.




Yes, that seems the best approach.


----------



## freyar (May 10, 2011)

Since psionic blast is stunning for 1 round, maybe we could change the blast radius based on power points absorbed, set a minimum to blast, or something.


----------



## Cleon (May 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ahh, right.  So I guess we really need two abilities tied together.  I think I'd drop the mindblank stuff and just go with the will save (as in the power leech power and psionic blast).  For the "blast," just base it on psionic blast?  That doesn't do hp damage but seems more appropriate flavor-wise.




I'd rather it did damage like the original, and not have it much resemble a psionic blast.

Stunning an opponent for 1 round is not a great defense for these things. Its enemies would just squash it a round later when the stun wears off, and the leech can only do it once per day. What's the leech supposed to do while its foes are stunned? It's too slow to run away from anything faster than a snail.

Unless there's another monster around to attack the leeches' enemies when they're stunned it's just putting off the (nigh) inevitable.


----------



## freyar (May 16, 2011)

That's a fair concern.  Do we want to model this on concussion blast, or is there a better power to use?


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's a fair concern.  Do we want to model this on concussion blast, or is there a better power to use?




Using _concussion blast_ is a good fit for me. We could have it use its absorbed PPs to augment the power, since that seems a good fit to the original description. Although if we do that we might want to put a cap on how many power points it can hold (and its manifester level).


----------



## freyar (May 19, 2011)

Sounds reasonable.  I'd probably also say it has to spend (at least) the usual number of PP to use the power in the first place.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds reasonable.  I'd probably also say it has to spend (at least) the usual number of PP to use the power in the first place.




Yeah, that makes sense.


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2011)

Ok, here's my first draft of these paired abilities.

Power Drain (Ps): A psionic leech can drain 1 power point per minute from a single character with a psionic power point reserve within 1 foot.  The leech gains a pool of power points equal to the points drained from other characters; power points remain in the leech's pool for 8 hours (see concussion blast below).  The victim is unaware of the power point drain, but can make a DC X Will save each minute to negate the drain and become aware of the drain attempt.  This ability is the equivalent of a 4th level power??

Concussion Blast (Ps): A psionic leech with a pool of power points can use concussion blast as the psionic power as long as it has 3 power points available, and it may augment the power if it has additional power points.  

Questions: make them both Ps as opposed to Su?  And should we do anything with this?


> Psionic leeches are able to sense the mind of a psionicist even when he has expended all of his PSPs. This does not deter the creatures from attempting to feed upon that mind. When this happens, the target must make a madness check each round. Only one check is required, no matter how many leeches are attempting to feed upon his depleted mind.


----------



## RavinRay (May 21, 2011)

Sorry guys; the office has been sending me on meetings outside the workplace and I've had to travel out of town so I've only been sporadic here. So I missed quite a lot of develoment here.


freyar said:


> Questions: make them both Ps as opposed to Su? And should we do anything with this?
> 
> 
> > Psionic leeches are able to sense the mind of a psionicist even when he has expended all of his PSPs. This does not deter the creatures from attempting to feed upon that mind. When this happens, the target must make a madness check each round. Only one check is required, no matter how many leeches are attempting to feed upon his depleted mind.



A psionic creature has a psionic aura even when drained of all power points, so an Su ability of _detect psionics_, limited only to detecting psionic creatures and not items, objects, or lingering effects of psionic powers or the use of psionic feats, should suffice.


----------



## Cleon (May 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, here's my first draft of these paired abilities.
> 
> Power Drain (Ps): A psionic leech can drain 1 power point per minute from a single character with a psionic power point reserve within 1 foot.  The leech gains a pool of power points equal to the points drained from other characters; power points remain in the leech's pool for 8 hours (see concussion blast below).  The victim is unaware of the power point drain, but can make a DC X Will save each minute to negate the drain and become aware of the drain attempt.  This ability is the equivalent of a 4th level power??
> 
> ...




I'd place a maximum capacity on the power drain (probably 10 PP), and note that when it exceeds that limit it reproduces by fission. We'd better add a SQ of some sort to explain that, maybe based on Create Spawn or Split?

Oh, and I'd definitely make them both (Ps).

Revising...

*Concussion Blast (Ps):* A psionic leech with a pool of power points can  use concussion blast as the psionic power as long as it has 3 power  points available, and it may augment the power if it has additional  power points.

*Power Drain (Ps):* A psionic leech can drain 1 power point per minute  from a single character with a psionic power point reserve within 1  foot.  The leech gains a pool of power points equal to the points  drained from other characters; power points remain in the leech's pool  for 8 hours (see Concussion Blast, above). A psionic leech can hold up to 10 power points in its pool, if it exceeds this limit the leech reproduces (see Split, below). The victim is unaware of the  power point drain, but can make a DC X Will save each minute to negate  the drain and become aware of the drain attempt.  This ability is the  equivalent of a 4th level power??

*Split (Ex):* If a psionic leech gains a pool of more than 10 power points using its Power Drain attack, the leech splits into two leeches (each with an empty power point pool).


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## freyar (May 26, 2011)

If it's due to power points, shouldn't splitting be Su?  Also, couldn't we just say it gets "full" without causing it to split?  I don't recall anything about reproduction in this fashion in the original monster.


----------



## Cleon (May 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> If it's due to power points, shouldn't splitting be Su?  Also, couldn't we just say it gets "full" without causing it to split?  I don't recall anything about reproduction in this fashion in the original monster.




They do use the psionic power to reproduce, although we should name it something different from "Split" while using a similar mechanism. Maybe "Spawn"? 



			
				Ravenloft 3 said:
			
		

> Ecology: Psionic leeches bloat with stolen energy until they become too  large and fall from their host. At this point they slowly crawl to the  nearest wetland and give birth to 1-6 more leeches in 3d4 days.


----------



## Shade (May 31, 2011)

Yeah, "Spawn" is a better fit, since it doesn't appear to destroy the parent in the process.


----------



## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, "Spawn" is a better fit, since it doesn't appear to destroy the parent in the process.






Revising...

*Concussion Blast (Ps):* A psionic leech with a  pool of power points can  use concussion blast as the psionic power as  long as it has 3 power  points available, and it may augment the power  if it has additional  power points.

*Power Drain (Ps):* A  psionic leech can drain 1 power point per minute  from a single  character with a psionic power point reserve within 1  foot.  The leech  gains a pool of power points equal to the points  drained from other  characters; power points remain in the leech's pool  for 8 hours (see  Concussion Blast, above). A psionic leech can hold up to 10 power points  in its pool, if it exceeds this limit the leech reproduces (see Spawn,  below). The victim is unaware of the  power point drain, but can make a  DC X Will save each minute to negate  the drain and become aware of the  drain attempt.  This ability is the  equivalent of a 4th level power??

*Spawn (Ex):*  If a psionic leech gains a pool of more than 10 power points the leech crawls away to the nearest wet, sheltered spot and gives birth to 1d6 more psionic leeches. This process takes X [3d4 days? 3d4 hours?] and empties the leech's power point pool.


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

It looks good!   4th-level equivalent seems about right.  I think I prefer days to hours for spawning.

Updated.

Since Ps abilities are Cha-based, I think we need to increase its Cha to 10.  Otherwise, its save DCs will be pathetic.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> It looks good!   4th-level equivalent seems about right.  I think I prefer days to hours for spawning.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Since Ps abilities are Cha-based, I think we need to increase its Cha to 10.  Otherwise, its save DCs will be pathetic.




...or give it a really massive racial bonus?


----------



## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Even mindless monsters often have Cha 10, so let's start there.


----------



## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Even mindless monsters often have Cha 10, so let's start there.




That is preferable to a massive racial bonus (although I wouldn't mind a small one).


----------



## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> That is preferable to a massive racial bonus (although I wouldn't mind a small one).




That'd be fine.


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2011)

The DCs would already be 12 for concussion blast and 14 for power drain.  Given how flimsy these are, maybe that's enough?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> The DCs would already be 12 for concussion blast and 14 for power drain.  Given how flimsy these are, maybe that's enough?




Yup, that ought to be plenty for its likely Challenge Rating.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2011)

Updated.

We'll need a manifester level for concussion blast.

Were we giving it some sort of detect psionics ability?

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


----------



## Cleon (Jun 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> We'll need a manifester level for concussion blast.




10th level, since it apparently can use all its power point pool (10 points) to augment it.



Shade said:


> Were we giving it some sort of detect psionics ability?




It certainly needs one.



Shade said:


> Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: x




Track, so it can trail prey by scent?

Endurance or Great Fortitude, so it's harder to kill?

For the Challenge Rating, I think about 1/3, just for its concussive blast.

I would think they'd have "Advancement: —".


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

Monsters with detect magic and/or detect psionics typically just have it as an SLA/PLA, so just make it an at will PLA here?

CR 1/3, no advancement are fine.  If you want Track, then we need Survival in the skills, but that doesn't really fit, since I think they more or less hang around waiting and can use detect psionics anyway.  Great Fort sounds good.  Put the skill ranks into Swim?


----------



## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

We could even set detect psionics as an "always active" PLA, similar to the detect evil of many angels.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 12, 2011)

We can specify that this _detect psionics_ PLA only detects psionic creatures.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> We could even set detect psionics as an "always active" PLA, similar to the detect evil of many angels.




I'd like that better than an "at-will" PLA.


----------



## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

RavinRay makes a fair point.

I knew there was an "always active" precedent somewhere, but I was looking in the wrong place!  Good, let's do that.


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks pretty good, except for a few quibbles.

They are Tiny sized, not Small.

They ought to have the Amphibious trait, so they can live out of water!

Their Swim should be +9 (if they use Dex) or +4 (if they use Str).

They need a weight - 1 pound ought to do.

I'd like to rework the first sentence of the Power Drain, "A psionic leech can drain 1 power point per minute from a single character with a psionic power point reserve within 1 foot." is so long it makes it unclear what the "within 1 foot" refers to.

How's this:

*Power Drain (Ps):* A psionic leech can drain psionic energy at a range of 1 foot. The leech can drain 1 power point per minute  from a single character with a psionic power point reserve. A psionic leech gains a pool of power points equal to the points drained  from other characters; power points remain in the leech's pool for 8  hours (see Concussion Blast, above). A psionic leech can hold up to 10  power points in its pool; if it exceeds this limit the leech reproduces  (see Spawn, below). The victim is normally unaware of the power point drain, but  can make a DC 14 Will save each minute to negate the drain and become  aware of the drain attempt. This ability is the equivalent of a  4th-level power.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

Updated.

We're still missing tactics!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We're still missing tactics!



Psionic leeches hide in water or undergrowth until a psionic creature passes nearby, they then try to attach themselves to the psionic creature and drain psionic power points until their victim has no psionic power points left or the leech can absorb no more. The leech then drops off and processes its meal.

If a psionic leech is attacked it defends itself with its _concussive blast_ power.​Hmm, I think we'd better modify Attach so it requires a skill check of some sort to notice the leech's presence. How's this.*Attach (Ex):* If a psionic leech hits with its touch attack, it uses the  tiny hooks along its body to latch onto the opponent's body. It deals no  additional damage when it is attached. An attached leech loses its  Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12.

The touch of a psionic leech is very subtle and carries a mild numbness, the victim must succeed at a DC 20 Spot or Autohypnosis check to notice the leech attaching itself.

An attached psionic leech can be struck with a weapon or grappled  itself. To remove an attached leech through grappling, the opponent must  achieve a pin against the creature.​What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Love it!  Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2011)

Wait, a foot long leech is attaching itself without anyone noticing???  Are we sure the OCR didn't turn an inch symbol into a foot?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Wait, a foot long leech is attaching itself without anyone noticing???  Are we sure the OCR didn't turn an inch symbol into a foot?




<double checks second source>

It's definitely a foot in length.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

That seems really weird.  Real leeches can definitely be a foot long (even much longer), but they're pretty thin, so I'd think it should be Diminutive and not Tiny (note that worm-like things are usually a size category smaller than you'd think based solely on looking at length).  

If we really want to make them Tiny --- the size of a cat! --- then maybe the anethesia bit should be Su or something.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> That seems really weird.  Real leeches can definitely be a foot long (even much longer), but they're pretty thin, so I'd think it should be Diminutive and not Tiny (note that worm-like things are usually a size category smaller than you'd think based solely on looking at length).
> 
> If we really want to make them Tiny --- the size of a cat! --- then maybe the anethesia bit should be Su or something.




I'd be happy to Diminutise them.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd bem happy to Diminutise them.




Alright, let's do it.   Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Alright, let's do it.   Updated.




Change the weight to "a few ounces"?


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Change the weight to "a few ounces"?



Yes.  Then I think it just might be done.

Could we start up it's cousin, the magic leech, somewhere before we forget this one?


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes.  Then I think it just might be done.
> 
> Could we start up it's cousin, the magic leech, somewhere before we forget this one?




I have no objection.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Could we start up it's cousin, the magic leech, somewhere before we forget this one?




Sure.  We can do it right here, since I'm not finding many unconverted psionic creatures at the moment.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure.  We can do it right here, since I'm not finding many unconverted psionic creatures at the moment.




Are there any that have old 3.0 conversions that have yet to be updated to 3.5?


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

There's a psychic golem of sorts in Nookie's Missed Monsters thread.

Are you OK with converting magic leech here first?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> There's a psychic golem of sorts in Nookie's Missed Monsters thread.
> 
> Are you OK with converting magic leech here first?




Sure, although now I'm wondering whether we shouldn't do a Psionic Leech Swarm before starting on the next beastie...


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Sure, although now I'm wondering whether we shouldn't do a Psionic Leech Swarm before starting on the next beastie...




Hell, why not!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hell, why not!




Agreed!

So, where's a normal Leech Swarm when we need one?

I'm sure I saw official 3E stats for one somewhere, and it'll be a good basis for our conversion.


----------



## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

_Stormwrack_.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> _Stormwrack_.




Ah yes, I knew they had official stats. I've got their mechanical info somwhere...

Hmm, Fine sized swarm with 2d8-2 HD, that doesn't seem enough HD for a psionic leech swarm.

The anaesthetise SA is an interesting approach, but we've already got that covered with our numbing attachment.

So, how many HD?

The psionic leech has got better hps than a Rat (1/4d10 vs 1/4d8) and is a size smaller. A Rat Swarm is 4 HD, so I'm thinking a 5 Hit Dice swarm, maybe 6 or 7 HD.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2011)

6HD swarm sounds good to me.  How shall it handle attaching and PP draining?


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> 6HD swarm sounds good to me.  How shall it handle attaching and PP draining?




Six dice it is then!

Didn't we do a "pseudoattach" ability before? Something which made it difficult for an opponent to leave the swarm's space, if I remember rightly.

That doesn't seem right for leeches though, so how about the swarm leaves some psionic leeches attached to a victim who is no longer in its space? (2d10 or 2d6 leeches? less? more?)

I guess it would drain X PP from any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. That would follow the standard precedent for swarm damage.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

Rot grub swarms leave a few behind, right?  We could borrow that mechanic.

And agreed on the psionic swarm damage.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Rot grub swarms leave a few behind, right?  We could borrow that mechanic.




Yes they do. It was one of the precedents floating around in my head when I was thinking what to do about the attachment.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2011)

Here's what we had for the crystal nipper.  We should drop the last paragraph, of course, but just change the "damage" in the first paragraph?

Infestation (Ex): Any living creature that takes damage from a crystal nipper swarm might also be infested with crystal nippers each round. A creature must make a successful DC 18 Reflex save to dodge the swarming nippers or bat them aside. The crystal nipper infesting the creature burrow into its flesh. An infested creature takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage per round, plus an additional 1d4 points of Constitution damage for each failed Reflex save against a crystal nipper swarm's attack. A successful DC 16 Fortitude save halves this damage. After 2d4 rounds, the sated crystal nippers crawl or swim away. A crystal nipper infestation can be removed with a successful DC 20 Heal check, though this check (whether successful or not) deals 1d6 points of damage to the infested target. Alternatively, a crystal nipper infestation can be destroyed by remove disease or any other effect that halts or counters a disease. Such spells destroy all the crystal nippers inhabiting a target.

Medium or larger creatures that die from crystal nipper infestation spawn a new crystal nipper swarm within 2d4 days. Burning or otherwise destroying the body prevents this. Casting raise dead to restore a creature killed by a crystal nipper swarm but this does not destroy the crystal nippers infestation, casting remove disease or a similar spell in the round afterward removes the nippers normally. Resurrection and true resurrection destroy the crystal nipper when cast.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Here's what we had for the crystal nipper.  We should drop the last paragraph, of course, but just change the "damage" in the first paragraph?
> 
> Infestation (Ex): Any living creature that takes damage from a crystal nipper swarm might also be infested with crystal nippers each round. A creature must make a successful DC 18 Reflex save to dodge the swarming nippers or bat them aside. The crystal nipper infesting the creature burrow into its flesh. An infested creature takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage per round, plus an additional 1d4 points of Constitution damage for each failed Reflex save against a crystal nipper swarm's attack. A successful DC 16 Fortitude save halves this damage. After 2d4 rounds, the sated crystal nippers crawl or swim away. A crystal nipper infestation can be removed with a successful DC 20 Heal check, though this check (whether successful or not) deals 1d6 points of damage to the infested target. Alternatively, a crystal nipper infestation can be destroyed by remove disease or any other effect that halts or counters a disease. Such spells destroy all the crystal nippers inhabiting a target.
> 
> Medium or larger creatures that die from crystal nipper infestation spawn a new crystal nipper swarm within 2d4 days. Burning or otherwise destroying the body prevents this. Casting raise dead to restore a creature killed by a crystal nipper swarm but this does not destroy the crystal nippers infestation, casting remove disease or a similar spell in the round afterward removes the nippers normally. Resurrection and true resurrection destroy the crystal nipper when cast.




Yes, that's the basic approach, but it needs quite a bit of reworking. The leeches will attach themselves to the victim, not bury into them, so it'll probably need a Ref or Dex check to remove them (by brushing them off) and a Will check to halve the damage (since it's psychic).

The DCs are presumably Dex for the attachment, Cha for the half-damage?


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2011)

Will save for half-damage, Cha-based DC sounds right.  I'm not so sure about the Ref save to brush them off, though, since you're not supposed to notice them attaching in the first place.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Will save for half-damage, Cha-based DC sounds right.  I'm not so sure about the Ref save to brush them off, though, since you're not supposed to notice them attaching in the first place.




That's for individual leeches.

I think it'd be hard not to notice when thousands of leeches crawl over you, doing swarm damage.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2011)

Right, but you shouldn't notice them sticking.  

Well, I'm not opposed to a Ref save to brush them off, as long as it has a decent racial bonus.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Right, but you shouldn't notice them sticking.
> 
> Well, I'm not opposed to a Ref save to brush them off, as long as it has a decent racial bonus.




Make it the same as their racial bonus to grapple?

Hold on, the *Homebrew* doesn't have a racial bonus to grapple!

Weren't we going to give them a +12, like a stirge, which would up their Grapple modifier to -4.

Hang on, they ought to have BAB +1 now they're Magical Beasts, which would increase Grapple to -3.

I prefer -4, so would lower the Strength to 1. (Besides, Str 2 seems too high. The same Str as a Diminutive Bat, Centipede, Hellwasp or Spider seems better).

I'd also let them use Dex on Swim checks.

There's also a "giant leech" in the skills that needs fixing...

I'm having second thoughts about the CR. Is 1/3 too much?

Thus:

*Leech, Psionic*
Diminutive Magical Beast (Aquatic, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 1/4d10 (1 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Swim 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+4 size, +1 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Touch +5 melee (attach)
Full Attack: Touch +5 melee (attach)
Special Attacks: Attach, concussion blast, power drain
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsight 10 ft., detect psionics, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +21, Swim +9
Feats: Great Fortitude, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm marsh
Organization: Colony (2-5) or swarm (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

_This leech has a distinctive bluish tinge to its rubbery black hide._

Psionic leeches drain mental energy in much the same way that magical  leeches drain magical energy. They prefer wetlands like swamps and  marshes, but can also be found in open ponds, wet grasses, or  slow-moving streams. 

Psionic leeches have tiny hooks along the edges of their flat bodies  that catch on clothing or fur. This allows them to cling to their host  tenaciously, dropping off only when the psionic powers of the victim  have been exhausted or a better source of food comes along.

A psionic leech is 6 to 12 inches long and weighs less than a pound.   A faint aura of crimson light surrounds it in darkness.

COMBAT

Psionic leeches hide in water or undergrowth until a psionic creature  passes nearby, they then try to attach themselves to the psionic  creature and drain psionic power points until their victim has no  psionic power points left or the leech can absorb no more. The leech  then drops off and processes its meal.

If a psionic leech is attacked it defends itself with its _concussive blast_ power.

Attach (Ex): If a psionic leech hits with its touch attack, it uses the  tiny hooks along its body to latch onto the opponent’s body. It deals no  additional damage when it is attached. An attached leech loses its  Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12. Psionic leeches have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

The touch of a psionic leech is very subtle and carries a mild numbness.   A victim must succeed on a DC 20 Spot or Autohypnosis check to notice  the leech attaching itself.

An attached psionic leech can be struck with a weapon or grappled  itself. To remove an attached leech through grappling, the opponent must  achieve a pin against the creature.

Concussion Blast (Ps): A psionic leech with a pool of power points can  use concussion blast as the psionic power as long as it has 3 power  points available, and it may augment the power if it has additional  power points.  Manifester level 10th.

Detect Psionics (Ps):  Detect psionics is always active upon a psionic  leech.  This functions as the power of the same name, except it only  detects psionic creatures.  It can be dispelled, but the psionic leech  can reactivate it as a free action.  Manifester level 10th.

Power Drain (Ps): A psionic leech can drain psionic energy at a range of  1 foot. The leech can drain 1 power point per minute  from a single  character with a psionic power point reserve. A psionic leech gains a  pool of power points equal to the points drained from other characters;  power points remain in the leech's pool for 8  hours (see Concussion  Blast, above). A psionic leech can hold up to 10 power points in its  pool; if it exceeds this limit the leech reproduces (see Spawn, below).  The victim is normally unaware of the power point drain, but can make a  DC 14 Will save each minute to negate the drain and become aware of the  drain attempt. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level power.  The  save DC is Charisma-based.

Spawn (Ex): If a psionic leech gains a pool of more than 10 power points  the leech crawls away to the nearest wet, sheltered spot and gives  birth to 1d6 more psionic leeches. This process takes 3d4 days and  empties the leech's power point pool.

Skills: Psionic leeches have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A psionic  leech has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special  action or avoid a hazard. It uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim  check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while  swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## freyar (Jun 30, 2011)

I think proposed changes are fine.  And I don't have a problem with CR 1/3.


----------



## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think proposed changes are fine.  And I don't have a problem with CR 1/3.




I can live with a 1/3, so I guess the individual version's done.

Getting back to the swarm, how are we doing for the "attachment"?

If a swarm "attaches" to a victim, does the swarm follow the victim when (if) they move, or is the victim unable to leave their square?

We were also talking about a bunch of individual leeches sticking to a victim who escapes a swarm. How many individual leeches should that be?


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't think I want the whole swarm sticking to the victim in this case.  Doesn't feel right for leeches.  But I do like the rot grub style stickiness.  Maybe 1d4 leeches?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't think I want the whole swarm sticking to the victim in this case.  Doesn't feel right for leeches.  But I do like the rot grub style stickiness.  Maybe 1d4 leeches?




That seems too few, I'd like there to be enough to create a noticeable drain after a few rounds. Maybe 2d6 or 1d10?

Besides, they're a lot less nasty than rot grubs.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

1d10 sounds ok to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> 1d10 sounds ok to me.




I'd rather have something with a minimum more than 1, such as 2d4, 2d6, or 3d4, but a single ten-sider would be acceptable if you and Shade prefer.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2011)

Not such a big deal here; I just have a fondness for slightly unusual damage dice.


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## Cleon (Jul 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Not such a big deal here; I just have a fondness for slightly unusual damage dice.




In that case, why not use the sadly neglected dodecahedron?


----------



## freyar (Jul 9, 2011)

That's good, too!  But I believe the choices you gave were 2d6 or 1d10.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's good, too!  But I believe the choices you gave were 2d6 or 1d10.




True, but then I gave you another choice. Aren't I generous!


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> True, but then I gave you another choice. Aren't I generous!



Very!  Do you still prefer multiple dice?  In that case, we could do 2d6.  Otherwise, let's pick 1d12.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Very!  Do you still prefer multiple dice?  In that case, we could do 2d6.  Otherwise, let's pick 1d12.




I'm not that bothered about it, frankly. 1d12 would be satisfactory.


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> In that case, why not use the sadly neglected dodecahedron?




I can give you a dozen reasons why I support this.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I can give you a dozen reasons why I support this.




Let's do it for the dodecohedrons then!


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Added the swarm basics to Homebrews.

Shall we summarize our infestation revision?


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added the swarm basics to Homebrews.




The BAB should be +6, not +1. 



Shade said:


> Shall we summarize our infestation revision?




Be my guest. 

I'm still not sure what to do about the original leech's Attach SA, assuming we don't just drop it. How about considering it entanglement until the victim or an ally can brush them off with a Reflex save? (e.g. half speed, cannot run or charge, -2 attack rolls, -4 to Dexterity, Concentration check to cast spells)


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Something like the following?  I don't like entanglement, I just want 1d12 leeches to stick:

Infestation (Ex): Any living creature that takes damage from a psionic leech swarm might also be infested with 1d12 leeches each round. A creature must make a successful DC X Reflex save to dodge the swarming leeches or bat them aside. The leech infesting the victim attaches itself to clothing or skin and can drain power points. An infested creature is drained of X power points...


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Something like the following?  I don't like entanglement, I just want 1d12 leeches to stick:
> 
> Infestation (Ex): Any living creature that takes damage from a psionic leech swarm might also be infested with 1d12 leeches each round. A creature must make a successful DC X Reflex save to dodge the swarming leeches or bat them aside. The leech infesting the victim attaches itself to clothing or skin and can drain power points. An infested creature is drained of X power points...




Agreed.  If we give 'em entanglement, we should also give it to the leech swarm, viper swarm, etc.   Infestation looks pretty good.   Couldn't we just simplify it to "Each leech infesting the victim is considered attached to the victim"?   At that point, we're dealing with individual leeches rather than a swarm.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  If we give 'em entanglement, we should also give it to the leech swarm, viper swarm, etc.   Infestation looks pretty good.   Couldn't we just simplify it to "Each leech infesting the victim is considered attached to the victim"?   At that point, we're dealing with individual leeches rather than a swarm.




Well Tiny Snakes don't have an Attach special attack, so I woulnd't think that would be necessary.

Anyhow, I don't mind dropping the entanglement.

The outline looks a good start, allthough I prefer "brush them off" over "bat them aside".

How's this.

*Infestation (Ex):* Any living creature that takes damage from a psionic  leech swarm risks being infested by the leeches. Every round, the creature must make a DC X Reflex save or have 1d12 psionic leeches attach themselves to the creature's body, if the Reflex save succeeds the creature negates the infestation by dodging the swarming leeches or brushing them off before they attach. Attached leeches drain the creature's psionic power points as individual monsters, these drained points are in addition to those drained by the swarm's attacks. The save DC is Reflex-based and includes a +Y racial bonus [*?*].


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't think its necessary to mention the power point drain, since the individual leeches have specific rules for how that work.


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't think its necessary to mention the power point drain, since the individual leeches have specific rules for how that work.




I'd rather make it explicit, if only to remind the DM that the individual leeches will be draining the victim of PPPs.

How's this?

*Infestation (Ex):* Any living creature that takes damage from a  psionic  leech swarm risks being infested by the leeches. Every round,  the creature must make a DC 16 Reflex save or have 1d12 psionic leeches  attach themselves to the creature's body and start draining psionic power points, these individual leeches will still be attached if the creature leaves a square occupied by the leech swarm. If the Reflex save succeeds,  the creature negates that round's infestation by dodging the swarming leeches or  brushing them off before they attach themselves. The save  DC is Dexterity-based and includes a +2 racial bonus [*?*].

Oh, by the way, I included a racial bonus to the DC because I reckon the individual leeches +12 racial bonus to Grapple implies they should have a racial bonus to Infestation too.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2011)

The racial bonus is fine.  I still think mentioning the power point drain just makes it more complex and confusing.   Let's get freyar's thoughts.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> The racial bonus is fine.  I still think mentioning the power point drain just makes it more complex and confusing.   Let's get freyar's thoughts.




Have you perfected that Freyar's Thoughts Extractor, then? 

*Ahem*

Anyhow, don't we need to say the individual leeches attack in addition to the swarm's attacks?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Have you perfected that Freyar's Thoughts Extractor, then?




It's in beta.  



Cleon said:


> Anyhow, don't we need to say the individual leeches attack in addition to the swarm's attacks?




As crazy as it sounds, we probably need to mention that the swarm doesn't attack individual leeches in its space!   (Since the normal swarm tactics indicate that they deal x damage to *any* creature that starts its turn in the same space).


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> It's in beta.
> 
> As crazy as it sounds, we probably need to mention that the swarm doesn't attack individual leeches in its space!   (Since the normal swarm tactics indicate that they deal x damage to *any* creature that starts its turn in the same space).




Well, you could just make psionic leeches immune to psionic leeching.


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, you could just make psionic leeches immune to psionic leeching.




We could, but that wouldn't protect them from the swarm damage (or the concussion blast).


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> We could, but that wouldn't protect them from the swarm damage (or the concussion blast).




Anyhow, it's a simple enough matter to say the individual leeches aren't harmed by the swarm's attacks.


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Anyhow, it's a simple enough matter to say the individual leeches aren't harmed by the swarm's attacks.




Probably true.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Probably true.




So...

*Infestation (Ex):* Any living creature that takes damage from  a  psionic  leech swarm risks being infested by the leeches. Every  round,  the creature must make a DC 16 Reflex save or have 1d12 psionic  leeches  attach themselves to the creature's body and start draining  psionic power points, these individual leeches will still be attached if  the creature leaves a square occupied by the leech swarm, and are not affected by the psionic leech swarm's swarm, power drain, or concussion blast attacks. If the Reflex  save succeeds,  the creature negates that round's infestation by  dodging the swarming leeches or  brushing them off before they attach  themselves. The save  DC is Dexterity-based and includes a +2 racial  bonus [*?*].


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

Updated.  I added distraction to the list of things the individual leeches ignore.

Shall we increase the power point pool size for the swarm, considering it consists of multiple leeches?  Maybe increase the amount drained as well, since its a higher-CR creature?   What shall we do about spawn?  I'd suggest once a higher power-point threshold is achieved, it spawns another swarm.


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2011)

Revised infestation is fine.  I'd suggest increasing all the power point variables and support Shade's suggested swarm spawn.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Revised infestation is fine.  I'd suggest increasing all the power point variables and support Shade's suggested swarm spawn.




1d4+1 drain?

25 point threshold?

Spawns after 25 points?


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  I added distraction to the list of things the individual leeches ignore.




I included distraction in an earlier draft but removed it. Distraction only affects creatures vulnerable to the swarm's damage, and we just said the individual leeches are immune.

Still, it doesn't hurt to make it explicit.



Shade said:


> Shall we increase the power point pool size for the swarm, considering it consists of multiple leeches?  Maybe increase the amount drained as well, since its a higher-CR creature?   What shall we do about spawn?  I'd suggest once a higher power-point threshold is achieved, it spawns another swarm.




Since there are 1500 creatures in a Diminutive swarm and each leech can drain 10 PPPs, logically it'd need 15000 PPPs to spawn.

I think it'd be best not to set a limit and just say it spawns X individual leeches per Y power points.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2011)

Maybe we could make it 1 pp per round instead of per minute.

Rather than have the swarm spawn individuals, I think I'd prefer just dropping the spawning.  I mean, the swarm itself contains a roughly indeterminate number of individuals.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Maybe we could make it 1 pp per round instead of per minute.
> 
> Rather than have the swarm spawn individuals, I think I'd prefer just dropping the spawning.  I mean, the swarm itself contains a roughly indeterminate number of individuals.




That'd be my preference too.

The newly born ones can just get incorporated into the swarm.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2011)

OK, we'll drop spawning.  Thoughts on the maximum power point stored threshold?


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, we'll drop spawning.  Thoughts on the maximum power point stored threshold?




Since it works out to thousands of psionic power points, I think it's easier just not setting a storage threshold.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Since it works out to thousands of psionic power points, I think it's easier just not setting a storage threshold.



I think I like that too.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think I like that too.




Than that's another thing we agreed on!


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Than that's another thing we agreed on!




One step closer to the inevitable hivemind...   

Updated.

Skills: Hide +21, Swim +9, 5 more ranks

Feats: Great Fortitude, 2 more

Challenge Rating: x


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> One step closer to the inevitable hivemind...




Nah, we'll never agree on who'll be the Enworld Hive Monarch. 



Shade said:


> Skills: Hide +21, Swim +9, 5 more ranks
> 
> Feats: Great Fortitude, 2 more
> 
> Challenge Rating: x




Spot +4?

Ability Focus (distraction) and Iron Will?

They look about a CR 4 to me.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2011)

Seems fair.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems fair.




Anything else?


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## Shade (Aug 15, 2011)

Updated.   Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Finished?




The swarm's Power Drain still seems a bit feeble, I'm thinking we shouldn't make it 1d3 power points per round against ALL creatures within 1 foot. It certainly shouldn't be limited to a single victim.

I'm also wondering whether it should be a free or swift action for a leech (both individual or swarm).


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

I could go for all that.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

Yes, 1 or 1d3 points per round from all creatures makes sense.  And so does making it a free action in both cases.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

Updated.

I'm wondering if the range should be "within its space" rather than 1 foot, like most swarm effects...


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I'm wondering if the range should be "within its space" rather than 1 foot, like most swarm effects...




That'd be fine be me.


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Same here.  Let's do that and wrap it up.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2011)

Updated.

Move on to magical leech, or another psionic creature?


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## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Move on to magical leech, or another psionic creature?




Shouldn't the swarm's power drain be "DC 14 Will save each *round*", since it doesn't do per-minute damage like an individual?

Apart from that I'm happy to move on.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Shouldn't the swarm's power drain be "DC 14 Will save each *round*", since it doesn't do per-minute damage like an individual?
> 
> Apart from that I'm happy to move on.




Fixed.


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2011)

Let's move to the magical variety!


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




Good!

Magic Leech then.


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2011)

*Leech, Magical*
Climate/Terrain: Ravenloft wetlands 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Magical energy 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 5-30 (5d6) 
Armor Class: 10 
Movement: 0, Sw 3 
Hit Dice: 1 hit point 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: Nil 
Damage/Attack: Nil 
Special Attacks: Magic drain & energy burst 
Special Defenses: Magic Resistance 
Magic Resistance: 99% 
Size: T (1” long) 
Morale: Steady (11-12) 
XP Value: 15 

In the wet grasses of some realms lurk strange leeches capable of draining a wizard’s magical essence. They are a bane to any magic-wielding creature or those who depend on spellcasting in combat. When feeding, they disrupt incantations, drain spells from the minds of wizards or priests, and are even capable of rendering magical objects useless and mundane.

Magical leeches look no different from normal ones, save that they occasionally emit tiny sparks of purplish energy from their grotesquely bloated bodies.

As one might expect, these creatures have no language and do not communicate with other creatures in any way.

Combat: Magical leeches do not need to make physical contact with their victims to feed-simply being within 1 yard allows them to draw forth the tendrils of sorcery that feed them. This makes magical leeches difficult to detect, for there is often nothing for the victim to feel.

The very presence of a leech makes it harder for spellcasters to activate their powers. Whenever one or more of these creatures is within one yard of them, a spell user must make a successful Ability Check on Intelligence or Wisdom (as appropriate) to cast a spell. If the check is failed, the spell simply peters out and does not take effect.

Magical leeches may also drain memorized spells from the minds of wizards or priests. The chance that a spell will be drained each round is 10% plus 1% per leech within 1 yard. Magical leeches drain a caster’s highest-level spells first, with the exact enchantment lost being randomly determined. The absence of the spell is noticed only when the wizard or priest attempts to cast it.

Magical leeches can also feed on the energy of a magical object, although they prefer the taste of energy drained from the humanoid mind instead. Every round that leeches are present, there is a 5% chance, plus 1 % per leech, that one power, function. or plus of a magical object is destroyed. The exact effect of the leech’s feeding is determined randomly.

Removing a magical leech is a painful task. When touched, magical leeches release a fraction of the energy stored in their bodies as an electrical discharge that causes 1-2 points of damage. For every spell, ability, of other essence the leech has consumed within the last 8 hours, the burst causes an additional 1 point of damage.

Habitat/Society: Magical leeches live in swamps or even tall wet grasses. They never leave their habitat under their own power. Anyone who walks through an infested area is likely to pick up 1d6 of the creatures, though there are usually 5-30 actually present at a particular site.

Ecology: After draining its host of magical energies, the leech drops off as soon as its host enters a swamp or similar wetland in which it can spawn, The magical energies ingested by the leech allow the filthy creature to give birth to 1-6 new leeches in 3d4 days.

Originally appeared in Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness (1994).


----------



## Cleon (Aug 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Leech, Magical*
> 
> Originally appeared in Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness (1994).




These are basically the same as psionic leeches, except they drain spells or magical objects and have Spell Resistance.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes, though the spell draining mechanic is a bit different.  I also think the sparking may be a bit more like a shocker lizard than what we had for the psionic leach.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, though the spell draining mechanic is a bit different.  I also think the sparking may be a bit more like a shocker lizard than what we had for the psionic leach.




Yeah, that seems a good analogy.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2011)

I have a feeling we've done a spell-thieving ability, too.  Can you remember where?  Memory moss seems too powerful of an effect.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I have a feeling we've done a spell-thieving ability, too.  Can you remember where?  Memory moss seems too powerful of an effect.




It's not just spell-thieving, it can drain magic items too.

Are there any useful bits we can pick from a _rod of absorption_ and the 3E Fiend Folio's Drain Magic special attack?


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2011)

Oh, yes, probably those would work.  Also, the ghazneths we did a while back could help.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oh, yes, probably those would work.  Also, the ghazneths we did a while back could help.




Hmm, modifying the Gazneth's ability would work...



			
				Creature Catalog said:
			
		

> *Absorb Magic (Su):* A ghazneth can ready an action to absorb spells or spell-like abilities as a _rod of absorption_, although the ghazneth is stunned for one round for each level that it absorbs. In addition, a ghazneth can absorb charges from charged magical items, absorbing one charge per round of contact. A charge grants as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge from a _wand of magic missile_ gives 1 level, but a charge from a _wand of fireball_ gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one level for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The charges are forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used normally.
> 
> Ghazneths may also spend one hour to discharge a permanent magical item (or one with daily charges) completely, rendering it a mundane item. This ability requires continuous contact. The ghazneth gains 10 spell levels per spell level of each effect of the magic item (or 1/2 the caster level of the effect, rounded up).
> 
> A ghazneth may store one level for each year of its age. At approximately 1,360 years of age, she can hold up to 1,360 levels.




It's a free action for a magic leech and doesn't stun the leech. The original wasn't reliable (10% of the time), so I'm thinking we could make it require a minute of "leeching" (per leech, i.e. 2 leeches = one check every 5 rounds, 5 leeches = every 2 rounds, 10+ leeches = once every round) and probably allow a Will save.

Have to figure out the level-equivalent for when it drains a non-spell magical item (assuming we retain that ability).


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2011)

Nice catch on the ghazneths!

A minute of draining sounds decent.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nice catch on the ghazneths!
> 
> A minute of draining sounds decent.




Care to rough out a special attack, then?


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

If we want to let it drain permanent magical items, why not just use the same formula as the ghazneths?  

So, something like this?

Absorb Magic (Su): A magical leech can absorb spells from nearby spellcasters.  For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of a magical leach, the caster must make a DC X Will save.  On a failed save, the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level remaining, and the leech absorbs a corresponding number of spell levels.  

In addition, a magical leech can absorb charges from charged magical items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the leech as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge from a wand of magic missile gives 1 level, but a charge from a wand of fireball gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one level for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The charges are forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used normally.

Magical leeches may also spend one hour to discharge a permanent magical item (or one with daily charges) completely, rendering it a mundane item. This ability requires continuous contact. The leech gains 10 spell levels per spell level of each effect of the magic item (or 1/2 the caster level of the effect, rounded up).

It also seems we need something like this:

Dampen Magic (Su): Magical leeches reduce the efficacy of magic.  Any spellcaster within 3 ft of a magical leech must make a DC X caster level check when attempting to cast a spell.  If the check fails, the spell does not function, but the prepared spell or spell slot is lost.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> If we want to let it drain permanent magical items, why not just use the same formula as the ghazneths?
> 
> So, something like this?




The original Magical Leech drained permanent magic items on a power-by-power or plus-by-plus basis. Do you think that's too fiddly?

Also, I think the item should get a saving throw of some sort (or the Leech needs to make a level check of some kind?) rather than the drain automatically working.



freyar said:


> It also seems we need something like this:
> 
> Dampen Magic (Su): Magical leeches reduce the efficacy of magic.  Any spellcaster within 3 ft of a magical leech must make a DC X caster level check when attempting to cast a spell.  If the check fails, the spell does not function, but the prepared spell or spell slot is lost.




I'd just say its spell resistance applies to any spell cast within 3 feet of the leech, probably even if the spell is normally unaffected by SR.


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## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, that might be a bit fiddly.  I could definitely see adding a save and possibly requiring longer contact (like a day or more).

Could go the SR route, too.  Works about the same way, I guess, and it's a little more elegant.  Sure.

Dampen Magic (Su): Any spell cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is affected by the leech's spell resistance, even if SR does not normally apply to that spell.  If multiple leeches are within 3 ft, only the highest SR applies.


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## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, that might be a bit fiddly.  I could definitely see adding a save and possibly requiring longer contact (like a day or more).




Yes, I'm not in the mood for something that fiddly. (At least today!)

Maybe have the required contact time vary with the CL of the item. Rather than using a set "1 day/level" or something, how about after every day of exposure the leeches make a level check (level = days of contact, max level X) against a permanent magic item, and if successful they drain away its magic?



freyar said:


> Could go the SR route, too.  Works about the same way, I guess, and it's a little more elegant.  Sure.
> 
> Dampen Magic (Su): Any spell cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is affected by the leech's spell resistance, even if SR does not normally apply to that spell.  If multiple leeches are within 3 ft, only the highest SR applies.




That looks fine to me!


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## freyar (Sep 7, 2011)

How about each day they're in contact with a magic item, the item makes a save, with the DC increasing by +1 each additional day of contact with a given leech?


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about each day they're in contact with a magic item, the item makes a save, with the DC increasing by +1 each additional day of contact with a given leech?




That works as well for me.

Presumably it'll be a Will or Fort save, since most magic items aren't that agile. 

It occurs to me we could use _Mordenkainen's__ mage's disjunction_ as a model...

Hmm, _mage's disjunction_ uses level check for spells and SLAs, Will saves for permanent magic items.


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

A Will save would make the most sense, since loss of "mental" powers like magic usually gets a Will save.  

Absorb Magic (Su): A magical leech can absorb spells from nearby spellcasters. For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of a magical leach, the caster must make a DC X Will save. On a failed save, the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level remaining, and the leech absorbs a corresponding number of spell levels.

In addition, a magical leech can absorb charges from charged magical items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the leech as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge from a wand of magic missile gives 1 level, but a charge from a wand of fireball gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one level for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The charges are forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used normally.

Magical leeches may also spend a day or more to discharge a permanent magical item (or one with daily charges) completely, rendering it a mundane item. This ability requires continuous contact. The leech gains 10 spell levels per spell level of each effect of the magic item (or 1/2 the caster level of the effect, rounded up).  Each day of contact with the leech, the magic item has a DC X Will save to negate the drain, but the DC increases by +1 for each day beyond the first that the leech maintains continual contact.  

The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Absorb Magic (Su): A magical leech can absorb spells from nearby spellcasters. For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of a magical leach, the caster must make a DC X Will save. On a failed save, the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level remaining, and the leech absorbs a corresponding number of spell levels.
> 
> In addition, a magical leech can absorb charges from charged magical items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the leech as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge from a wand of magic missile gives 1 level, but a charge from a wand of fireball gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one level for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The charges are forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used normally.




The above looks fine as-is. I'd also have the leech gain "levels" from spells dampened by the leech's spell resistance.



freyar said:


> Magical leeches may also spend a day or more to discharge a permanent magical item (or one with daily charges) completely, rendering it a mundane item. This ability requires continuous contact. The leech gains 10 spell levels per spell level of each effect of the magic item (or 1/2 the caster level of the effect, rounded up).  Each day of contact with the leech, the magic item has a DC X Will save to negate the drain, but the DC increases by +1 for each day beyond the first that the leech maintains continual contact.




Not so fond of this paragraph. How's this:

Magical leeches may also absorb the magic from a permanent  magical item (or one with daily charges), eventually rendering it a  mundane item. This ability requires continuous contact.  Each day of contact with  the leech, the magic item must succeed at a Will or be completely drained of magic. The Will save is initially DC X, but increases by +1 DC for each day beyond the first that the leech  maintains continual contact. The leech gains  10 spell levels per level of each of the magic item's spell effects (or 1/2  the caster level of the effect, rounded up). A magic leeches ability to absorb magic has no effect on artifacts.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

Sounds good, though that first "Will" should be a "Will save."


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Lookin' good!


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## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds good, though that first "Will" should be a "Will save."




Easy enough to fix.

What about the "feeding off spells dampened by its SR" proposal?


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2011)

Yes, I think that makes sense.  

Dampen Magic (Su): Any spell cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is affected by the leech's spell resistance, even if SR does not normally apply to that spell. If multiple leeches are within 3 ft, only the highest SR applies.  If a spell does not overcome the leech's SR, that leech gains spell levels as per its Absorb Magic ability.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, I think that makes sense.
> 
> Dampen Magic (Su): Any spell cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is affected by the leech's spell resistance, even if SR does not normally apply to that spell. If multiple leeches are within 3 ft, only the highest SR applies.  If a spell does not overcome the leech's SR, that leech gains spell levels as per its Absorb Magic ability.




Hmm, I'm thinking we should expand it a little, and it might be worth changing the name to Dampen Spell. e.g.:

* Absorb Magic (Su):* A magical leech can absorb spells from nearby  spellcasters. For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of a  magical leach, the caster must make a DC X Will save. On a failed save,  the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest level  remaining, and the leech absorbs a corresponding number of spell levels.
A magical leech can also absorb magic from spells (or spell-like abilities) cast in its vicinity (see Dampen Spell, below).

 In addition, a magical leech can absorb charges from charged magical  items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the  leech as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge  from a wand of magic missile gives 1 level, but a charge from a wand of  fireball gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one level  for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The charges are  forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used normally.

Magical leeches may also absorb the magic from a permanent  magical item  (or one with daily charges), eventually rendering it a  mundane item.  This ability requires continuous contact.  Each day of contact with  the  leech, the magic item must succeed at a Will save or be completely drained  of magic. The Will save is initially DC X, but increases by +1 DC for  each day beyond the first that the leech  maintains continual contact.  The leech gains  10 spell levels per level of each of the magic item's  spell effects (or 1/2  the caster level of the effect, rounded up). A  magic leeches ability to absorb magic has no effect on artifacts. 	

*Dampen Spell (Su):* Any spell or spell-like ability cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is  affected by the leech's spell resistance, even if SR does not normally  apply to that spell. If multiple leeches are within 3 ft, only the  highest SR applies.  If a spell does not overcome the leech's SR, the spell or spell-like ability has no effect and that  leech gains spell levels as per its Absorb Magic ability.


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2011)

Yes, that's a little more explicit.  Looks good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

I concur.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I concur.




Good!

So what's left.

Something about how many spell levels it can absorb (and that it can expend the magical energy to breed).

It also needs the spell-level powered special attack it uses to defend itself. I don't remember us figuring that out.


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2011)

How about it can hold 10 spell levels or use them to spawn, just like the power points for the psionic leech?

For the shock, it has


> Removing a magical leech is a painful task. When touched, magical leeches release a fraction of the energy stored in their bodies as an electrical discharge that causes 1-2 points of damage. For every spell, ability, of other essence the leech has consumed within the last 8 hours, the burst causes an additional 1 point of damage.




I suggested something based on a shocker lizard.  


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Stunning Shock (Su): Once per round, a shocker lizard can deliver an electrical shock to a single opponent within 5 feet. This attack deals 2d8 points of nonlethal damage to living opponents (Reflex DC 12 half ). The save DC is Constitution-based.



Just switch 2d8 nonlethal to 1d2+spell levels electrical?


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about it can hold 10 spell levels or use them to spawn, just like the power points for the psionic leech?




Yes, that's what I was thinking.



freyar said:


> For the shock, it has
> 
> 
> > Removing a magical leech is a painful task. When touched, magical leeches release a fraction of the energy stored in their bodies as an electrical discharge that causes 1-2 points of damage. For every spell, ability, of other essence the leech has consumed within the last 8 hours, the burst causes an additional 1 point of damage.
> ...


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

Modeling off shocking grasp works, since it's a touch thing.  I'd say it expends the spell level.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Modeling off shocking grasp works, since it's a touch thing.  I'd say it expends the spell level.




Good call.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good call.




Sounds like a plan!

Care to rough something out?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2011)

Arcane/Eldritch/Mystic Shock (Su): A magical leech can expend spell levels as an immediate action to shock any creature touching it.  This does 1d6 points of electrical damage for the first spell level expended plus an additional 1d6 points electrical damage for each additional two spell levels the leech expends.  (Care for a save for half?)  (Allow the leech to make a touch attack?)


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Arcane/Eldritch/Mystic Shock (Su): A magical leech can expend spell levels as an immediate action to shock any creature touching it.  This does 1d6 points of electrical damage for the first spell level expended plus an additional 1d6 points electrical damage for each additional two spell levels the leech expends.  (Care for a save for half?)  (Allow the leech to make a touch attack?)




Hmm, the original leech did 1d3 plus 1 per absorbed spell, but this did not seem to drain its "spell levels".

The psionic leech's _concussion blast_ has a medium range (up to 110-200 ft.) and can affect multiple targets, so I'm thinking we should/could give it an "Arcane Blast" that does the same.

Maybe give it two abilities, a "Shocking Touch" and an "Arcane Blast?", something like this:

*Shocking Touch (Su):* A magic leech can expend a stored spell level to shock any creature touching it. This does 1d3 points of electrical damage plus 1 point per spell level the leech had stored (including the one it just expended, so a leech with 10 spell levels inflicts a 1d3+10 damage shock and is reduced to 9 spell levels. A magic leech can also make a shocking touch as a standard touch attack, it only expends a stored spell level if the touch attack succeeds.

*Arcane Blast (Sp?):* A magical leech can expend its stored spell levels to release a blast of deadly energy which infallibly strikes its enemies. A magic leech's arcane blast is the equivalent of a 3rd level spell,  its effective caster level is equal to the spell levels expended. The  blast has a Medium range (100 ft. plus 10 ft. per spell level expended)  and can hit 1 target, plus one additional target for every 3 spell  levels expended past the first (2 targets at CL 4th, 3 targets at CL  7th, 4 targets at CL 10th). The blast can automatically hit any target(s) the leech can see that are within range, even in cover or concealment (although the leech cannot hit creatures in total cover or total concealment). Targets hit by an arcane blast take 1d6 [electricity?] damage, plus an additional 1d6 for every 3 spell levels above the 1st (total damage 2d6 at CL 3rd, 3d6 at CL 6th, 4d6 at CL 9th).


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2011)

Well, I'm open to discussion about the strength of the shocking touch as well as its cost in levels (I like what you have there quite a bit actually, though maybe we can streamline it a bit).  But I really don't think it needs to parallel the psionic leech so much that it needs a blast ability.  

How about we jus take your version of the shocking touch and leave it at that?  It can be used defensitively if it's an immediate action, and it can be used offensively if the leech happens to be grappling its victim anyway; it doesn't need a touch attack.


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm open to discussion about the strength of the shocking touch as well as its cost in levels (I like what you have there quite a bit actually, though maybe we can streamline it a bit).  But I really don't think it needs to parallel the psionic leech so much that it needs a blast ability.
> 
> How about we jus take your version of the shocking touch and leave it at that?  It can be used defensitively if it's an immediate action, and it can be used offensively if the leech happens to be grappling its victim anyway; it doesn't need a touch attack.




Hmm, I don't mind dropping the Arcane Blast bit.

As for streamlining, I'm open to suggestions.

If we add an immediate-action to allow a "defensive shock", it could be something like.

*Shocking Touch (Su):* As an immediate action, a magic leech can release a burst of energy that automatically hits any creature touching the leech, doing 1d3 points of electrical damage plus 1 point per spell level the leech has stored (e.g. 1d3+10 for 10 spell levels). This costs the leech 1 spell level. A magic leech without stored spell levels cannot use shocking touch.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2011)

Yes, that seems great to me!


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, that seems great to me!




Maybe we should make it clear the spell level cost is not subtracted from the damage? Something like, "This costs the leech 1 stored spell level, subtracted after the shocking touch does its damage."


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

I think the example already clears that up, so there's no need to add more text.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think the example already clears that up, so there's no need to add more text.




If you're happy with it as-is I don't mind sticking with the current version.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't think we have a homebrews or working draft for these, so let's swap out the appropriate abilities with the psionic leech and see how it looks.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't think we have a homebrews or working draft for these, so let's swap out the appropriate abilities with the psionic leech and see how it looks.




That makes sense, I'll start one up...


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

*Magical Leech Working Draft*

*Leech, Magical*
Diminutive Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1/4d10 (1 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Swim 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+4 size, +1 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Touch +5 melee (attach)
Full Attack: Touch +5 melee (attach)
Special Attacks: Absorb magic, attach, dampen magic, shocking touch
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsight 10 ft., detect magic, scent, SR 18
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +21, Swim +9
Feats: Great Fortitude, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm marsh
Organization: Colony (2-5) or swarm (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

_This creature looks like an ordinary leech, except its black, slimy body occasionally produces a purplish spark._

A magical leech feeds off magic, it does not eat blood like a normal  leech. These disgusting creatures are a bane to spellcasting creatures,  for the magic in spells is their favorite meal. Magical leeches live in  warm wetlands just like mundane leeches. The purplish sparks a magical  leech occasionally gives off are too dim to illuminate their  surroundings or give away their hiding place. A leech that's bloated by  feeding on magic produces sparks much more frequently.

Magical leeches have tiny hooks along the edges of their flat bodies    that catch on clothing or fur. This allows them to cling to their host    tenaciously, dropping off only when the magical energies of the victim    have been exhausted or a better source of food comes along.

A magical leech is 6 to 12 inches long and weighs less than a pound.

*COMBAT*

Magical leeches hide in water or undergrowth until they sense a  magic-using or spellcasting creature  passing nearby. They then try to  attach themselves to the   creature and drain its magic until their  victim has no magical powers  left or the leech can absorb no more. The  leech  then drops off and  processes its meal.

If a magical leech is attacked, it defends itself with its shocking touch power. 

*Absorb Magic (Su):* A magical leech can absorb spells from nearby   spellcasters. For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of a   magical leech, the caster must make a DC 10 Will save. On a failed  save,  the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest  level  remaining, and the leech absorbs a corresponding number of spell  levels.

A magical leech can also absorb magic from spells (or spell-like abilities) cast in its vicinity (see Dampen Spell, below).

  In addition, a magical leech can absorb charges from charged magical   items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the   leech as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a charge   from a wand of magic missile gives 1 level, but a charge from a wand  of  fireball gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant one  level  for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The  charges are  forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used  normally.

Magical leeches may also absorb the magic from a permanent  magical item   (or one with daily charges), eventually rendering it a  mundane item.   This ability requires continuous contact.  Each day of contact with   the  leech, the magic item must succeed at a Will save or be completely  drained  of magic. The Will save is initially DC 10, but increases by +1  DC for  each day beyond the first that the leech  maintains continual  contact.  The leech gains  10 spell levels per level of each of the  magic item's  spell effects (or 1/2  the caster level of the effect,  rounded up). A  magical leech's ability to absorb magic has no effect on  artifacts.

The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Attach (Ex):* If a magical leech hits with its touch attack, it uses the  tiny hooks along its body to latch onto the opponent’s body. It deals no  additional damage when it is attached. An attached leech loses its  Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12. Magical leeches have a +12  racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base  Attack/Grapple entry above).

 The touch of a magical leech is very subtle and carries a mild numbness.   A victim must succeed on a DC 20 Spot or Autohypnosis check to notice  the leech attaching itself.

 An attached magical leech can be struck with a weapon or grappled  itself. To remove an attached leech through grappling, the opponent must  achieve a pin against the creature.

*Dampen Spell (Su):* Any spell or spell-like ability cast within 3 feet of a magical leech is  affected by the leech's spell  resistance, even if SR does not normally  apply to that spell. If  multiple leeches are within 3 ft., only the  highest SR applies.  If a  spell does not overcome the leech's SR, the  spell or spell-like ability has no effect and that  leech gains spell levels as per its Absorb Magic ability.

*Detect Magic (Su):* _Detect magic _is always active upon a magical leech.  This functions as the spell of the same name.  It can be dispelled, but the magical leech  can reactivate it as a free action. Caster level 10th.

*Shocking Touch (Su):* As an immediate action, a magical leech can  release a burst of energy that automatically hits any creature touching  the leech, doing 1d3 points of electrical damage plus 1 point per spell  level the leech has stored (maximum damage 1d3+10 for 10 spell levels). This costs  the leech 1 spell level. A magical leech without stored spell levels  cannot use shocking touch.     

*Spawn (Ex)*: If a magical leech absorbs 10 or more spell levels,  the leech crawls away to the nearest wet, sheltered spot and gives  birth to 1d6 more magical leeches. This process takes 3d4 days and  empties the leech's spell level pool.

*Skills:* Magical leeches have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A magical  leech has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special  action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim  check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while  swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Magical leeches use  either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Swim checks,  whichever is higher. 

*Magical **Leech Swarm*
Diminutive Magical Beast (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 6d10 (33 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Swim 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+4 size, +1 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-
Attack: Swarm (1d6 plus infestation)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6 plus infestation)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Absorb magic, attach, dampen magic, distraction, infestation, shocking touch
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsight 10 ft., detect magic, immune to weapon damage, scent, SR 21, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +21, Spot +4, Swim +9
Feats: Ability Focus (distraction), Great Fortitude, Iron Will
Environment: Warm marsh
Organization: Solitary or plague (2-4 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

COMBAT

*Absorb Magic (Su):* A magical leech swarm can absorb spells from nearby    spellcasters. For each minute that a spellcaster spends within 3 ft of  a   magical leech, the caster must make a DC 13 Will save. On a failed   save,  the caster loses one prepared spell or spell slot of the highest   level  remaining, and the leech swarm absorbs a corresponding number of spell   levels.

A magical leech swarm can also absorb magic from spells (or spell-like abilities) cast in its vicinity (see Dampen Spell, below).

  In addition, a magical leech swarm can absorb charges from charged magical    items, absorbing one charge per minute of contact. A charge grants the    leech swarm as many levels as appropriate to the effect (for example, a  charge   from a _wand of magic missile_ gives 1 level, but a charge from a  _wand  of  fireball_ gives 3 levels). Charges of non-spell effects grant  one  level  for every two caster levels of the effect (rounded up). The   charges are  forever lost to the magic item, as if they had been used   normally.

Magical leech swarms may also absorb the magic from a permanent  magical item    (or one with daily charges), eventually rendering it a  mundane item.    This ability requires continuous contact.  Each day of contact with    the  leech, the magic item must succeed at a Will save or be completely   drained  of magic. The Will save is initially DC 13, but increases by  +1  DC for  each day beyond the first that the leech  swarm maintains  continual  contact.  The leeches gains  10 spell levels per level of each  of the  magic item's  spell effects (or 1/2  the caster level of the  effect,  rounded up). A  magical leech swarms ability to absorb magic has no  effect on  artifacts.

The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Dampen Spell (Su):* Any spell or spell-like ability cast within 3  feet of a magical leech swarm is  affected by the swarm's spell  resistance,  even if SR does not normally  apply to that spell. If  multiple magical leeches or magical leech swarms  are within 3 ft, only the  highest SR applies.  If a  spell does not  overcome the leech's SR, the  spell or spell-like ability has no effect  and that  leech gains spell levels as per its Absorb Magic ability.

*Detect Magic (Su):* _Detect magic _is always active upon a  magical leech.  This functions as the spell of the same name.  It can be  dispelled, but the magical leech  can reactivate it as a free action.  Caster level 10th.

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature vulnerable to the magical leech swarm's damage who notices the swarm and begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 15 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Infestation (Ex):* Any living creature that takes damage from a magical leech swarm risks being infested by the leeches. Every round, the creature must make a DC 16 Reflex save or have 1d12 magical leeches attach themselves to the creature's body and start draining magical energy. These individual leeches will still be attached if the creature leaves a square occupied by the leech swarm, and are not affected by the magical leech swarm's swarm attack, distraction, power drain, or _shocking touch_ attacks. If the Reflex save succeeds, the creature negates that round's infestation by dodging the swarming leeches or brushing them off before they attach themselves. The save DC is Dexterity-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. 

*Shocking Touch (Su):* As an immediate action, a magical leech swarm can   release a burst of energy against any creature in its space (the swarm can target any or all creatures in its space, and can elect not to target some creatures). The shocking touch automatically hits all targeted creatures, doing 1d3 points of electrical damage plus 1 point per spell   level the leech swarm has stored (maximum damage 1d3+10 for 10 spell  levels). This costs  the leech swarm 1 spell level for every creature it targets. A magical leech swarm without  stored spell levels  cannot use shocking touch.     

*Skills:* Magical leeches have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A  magical  leech has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some  special  action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim  check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while  swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Magical leeches  use  either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Swim  checks,  whichever is higher.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2011)

That's pretty much done then!  I'd be fine with all the red suggested text, though I wonder if the bit about a crimson glow gives it a racial penalty to Hide. 

Port this stuff directly into the swarm, then?


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's pretty much done then!  I'd be fine with all the red suggested text, though I wonder if the bit about a crimson glow gives it a racial penalty to Hide.




The crimson glow is a holdover from the psionic leech, but I left it in red since I didn't check the equivalent special effect of their magic-draining cousins.

Magical leeches "occasionally emit tiny sparks of purplish energy".



freyar said:


> Port this stuff directly into the swarm, then?




We'll need to tweak their Absorb Magic and Dampen Magic a bit, but it's easily doable.

First we'd better set a number for the Spell Resistance, though.


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, an individual is a pretty low-level threat, so maybe SR 18 or so.  Relatively low chance for a 1st or 2nd level caster to overcome, but it runs out by 5th-6th level.  The swarm will need to be higher, though.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, an individual is a pretty low-level threat, so maybe SR 18 or so.  Relatively low chance for a 1st or 2nd level caster to overcome, but it runs out by 5th-6th level.  The swarm will need to be higher, though.




Spell Resistance 18 seems too high, that's an 80% failure chance for a 1st level caster. I was thinking more in the 12-15 range.

SR 18 might be OK for a Swarm, though.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2011)

I could go for SR 15, I guess.  These should be potent enough that a 1st level caster has more than a 30% chance to overcome it.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> I could go for SR 15, I guess.  These should be potent enough that a 1st level caster has more than a 30% chance to overcome it.




Well that's a 14+, for a 35% chance of success.

Better wait to see what Shade thinks.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2011)

Well, the original had 99% magic resistance, so I'm perfectly content with SR 18.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Well, the original had 99% magic resistance, so I'm perfectly content with SR 18.




Well if you want to accurately reflect that, we'd need a SR of 20-21 to give PC spellcasters an almost certain chance of spell failure.

Still, I suppose SR 18 is OK.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2011)

Let's go with SR 18.  I don't need it to be 99%, but pretty hard for a low-level character to beat.  Sure.

Ready for the swarm now?


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's go with SR 18.  I don't need it to be 99%, but pretty hard for a low-level character to beat.  Sure.
> 
> Ready for the swarm now?




We need to rework the background text, tactics and description, which are either missing or mostly that of the psionic leech.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2011)

This should be fairly similar, right?  Just alter the red text, I think.  I guess you want to fill in a paragraph there at the top.  We can work on the swarm first if you're worn out of flavoring, though.


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> This should be fairly similar, right?  Just alter the red text, I think.  I guess you want to fill in a paragraph there at the top.  We can work on the swarm first if you're worn out of flavoring, though.




Let's leave it for later, I'm running out of steam today.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Let's leave it for later, I'm running out of steam today.




My steam levels are low as well.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> My steam levels are low as well.




Well I've had time to get my boiler back up to operating pressure, so how's this for the text:

_This creature looks like an ordinary leech, except its black, slimy body occasionally produces a purplish spark._

A magical leech feeds off magic, it does not eat blood like a normal leech. These disgusting creatures are a bane to spellcasting creatures, for the magic in spells is their favorite meal. Magical leeches live in warm wetlands just like mundane leeches. The purplish sparks a magic leech occasionally gives off are too dim to illuminate their surroundings or give away their hiding place. A leech that's bloated by feeding on magic produces sparks much more frequently.

Magical leeches have tiny hooks along the edges of their flat bodies   that catch on clothing or fur. This allows them to cling to their host   tenaciously, dropping off only when the magical energies of the victim   have been exhausted or a better source of food comes along.

A magical leech is 6 to 12 inches long and weighs less than a pound.

*COMBAT*

Magical leeches hide in water or undergrowth until they sense a magic-using or spellcasting creature  passing nearby. They then try to attach themselves to the   creature and drain its magic until their victim has no magical powers  left or the leech can absorb no more. The leech  then drops off and  processes its meal.

If a magical leech is attacked, it defends itself with its shocking touch power.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2011)

Looks great!


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2011)

Looks great!


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks great!




Updating *Working Draft*.

What changes need we make to the Swarm version?


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2011)

Add infestation, drop spawning.  Probably modify the absorb magic and dampen spell abilities (at least the DCs) as well as the shocking touch.  Sound right?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Add infestation, drop spawning.  Probably modify the absorb magic and dampen spell abilities (at least the DCs) as well as the shocking touch.  Sound right?




It'll need a Distraction writeup as well, but that's just plain boilerplate.

I'll modify the *Working Draft* with a rough outline, tell me what you think.

We've still got some DCs for the individual and swarm to work out, and the SR for the Swarm.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2011)

Let's fill in those DCs.  

Individual leech: 
absorb magic - DC 10 everywhere, and add a line that it's Cha-based.
Swarm:
same thing, just DC 13.

Looks pretty good, generally speaking.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's fill in those DCs.
> 
> Individual leech:
> absorb magic - DC 10 everywhere, and add a line that it's Cha-based.
> ...




Agreed to all that.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2011)

So I think it just needs Distraction and flavor/tactics text for the swarm.


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## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> So I think it just needs Distraction and flavor/tactics text for the swarm.




I don't follow you. It's already got Distraction, between Detect Magic and Infestation.

I'll update the *Working Draft* with the DCs.

What Spell Resistance should the Swarm have? SR 21?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

Must have missed a Spot check. 

SR 21 seems fine for the swarm.

Do they need anything else?


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm fine with SR 21.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Must have missed a Spot check.
> 
> SR 21 seems fine for the swarm.




I'll update it with that Spell Resistance.



freyar said:


> Do they need anything else?




Monkeys. Everything's better with monkeys.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Monkeys. Everything's better with monkeys.




Truer words have never been spoken.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Truer words have never been spoken.




We might as well close all these forums down here and now, then.

How could we possibly improve on monkeys?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We might as well close all these forums down here and now, then.
> 
> How could we possibly improve on monkeys?




Fiendish dire kaiju monkeys?


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Fiendish dire kaiju monkeys?




If you add half-dragon and pseudonatural I suppose it might make them _slightly _more interesting.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

So...are we ready to migrate the Working Draft to Homebrews and move on?


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## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> So...are we ready to migrate the Working Draft to Homebrews and move on?




Sure!

Except for the typos I just noticed. "Abililty" indeed!

I'll just fix those and it's good to go.

EDIT: Oh, and Detect Magic should be (Su) not (Ps) - it's not Detect Psionics anymore!


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Migrated.

Next!

*Wall Walker*
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Hive 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: B 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 1-2 
Armor Class: 3 
Movement: 9, Cl 12 
Hit Dice: 6 
THAC0: 14 
No. of Attacks: 3 
Damage/Attack: 2-12/2-12/2-8 
Special Attacks: Psionics, paralyzation 
Special Defenses: Psionics, immune to fire 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: M (5’ long) 
Morale: Elite (13-14) 
XP Value: 1,500 

Psionics Summary

Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs 
2 1/2/6 -/M- 11 80 

Clairsentience – Sciences: nil; Devotions: feel light, feel sound.

Psychometabolism – Science: shadow form; Devotions: catfall, chameleon power.

Telepathy – Sciences: nil; Devotions: contact, mind blank.

Wall-walkers are subterranean hunters that live in the caverns and passages beneath Athas’s burning surface. These insectoid creatures were named by the first generation dray that live in Kragmorta, who observed the wall-walkers’ climbing ability and named them accordingly. Wall-walkers combine many of the characteristics of spiders and large reptiles. They have armored scales instead of chitinous plates, eight clawed legs, sharp fangs, and a stinging tail.

Wall-walkers communicate among themselves via sounds made by rubbing their legs together. The cavern of Kragmorta, for example, echoes with the haunting sounds well into the sleep period of the area’s other inhabitants. No other intelligent creatures have yet learned to communicate with the wall-walkers or figured out how to interpret the sounds they make.

Combat: With its psionic powers, a wall-walker can blend into the scenery. Its scales take on the texture and color of any nearby rock surfaces, ruined walls, or fungi caps. It can take on the form of a shadow and move invisibly through the darkness of the underregion. A wall-walker delights in frightening and playing with its prey before moving in for the kill, and it uses all of its powers to accomplish this.

A wall-walker uses its special paralyzation attack first in many instances. It leaps forward and tries to strike with its stinger. A successful hit doesn’t cause any appreciable damage, but the victim must make a saving throw versus poison or suffer from paralyzing venom for 1d6 rounds. Those affected by the venom cannot move for the duration of the effect. The wall-walker hopes to paralyze its prey so that it can then torment them for a time. The wall-walker gets very close to a paralyzed victim and stares into its eyes, moving its mandibles back and forth in a threatening manner.

If the stinger attack doesn’t incapacitate prey, a wall-walker must resort to regular combat. A wall-walker makes three attacks in a round. The claws on its front legs cause 2d6 points of damage each. Its bite causes 2d4 points of damage. Because of the way the stinger is positioned, a wall-walker must turn away from its opponent to attempt a stinger strike. Once it gets into melee with its prey, a wall-walker usually abandons its stinger attack in favor of its claw/claw/bite routine. Whenever a wall-walker makes a stinger attack, if the victim is not hit or makes its save, then the opponent can return the attack with a bonus. In the round after a wall-walker uses its stinger (successfully or not), its opponent receives a +2 bonus to its attack rolls for that round.

Wall-walkers hunt alone or in pairs. They use their climbing skills to best advantage, following prey from overhead or along a side wall. When an opportunity to attack with surprise presents itself, the wall-walkers strike.

When operating as a pair, the wall-walkers strike in separate rounds. This is to make best use of their surprise bonuses (while on the wall or ceiling and in the shadows, wall-walkers receive a +2 surprise bonus) and stinger attacks. When alone, a wall-walker waits until its prey is separated from any companions before attacking.

These predators use their psionic powers to track and stalk victims. Many visitors to the under-region display a look of shock when a wall-walker jumps from the shadows or steps away from a wall the same color as it is to deliver three devastating attacks or a stinger strike.

Habitat/Society: Wall-walkers build hives inside the walls of caverns. They use their powerful claws to scoop out rock and dirt, which then is deposited in great heaps at the base of the wall. They range far and wide through the under-regions, seeking prey to feast upon and bring back to their hives. Wall-walkers can be encountered not only in the larger caverns, but in the tunnels connecting the caverns to each other as well. All of the under-region is their home and hunting ground, and they consider everything that passes near them to be prey.

One hive is known to exist in Kragmorta. The wallwalkers of this hive make constant trouble for the first generation dray who live within the cavern. The two species are almost in a state of war with each other – each looking on the other as prey.

Like all predators, the wall-walker seeks to survive. It constantly looks for a steady supply of food, and it takes great pains to protect its hive and its young from other predators. Its one true competitor for the same ecological niche is the kalin. If a wall-walker and kalin come within sight of each other, a terrible battle usually breaks out. In fact, a pair of wall-walkers will go out of their way to attack a nearby kalin.

Ecology: The subterranean world beneath Athas is home to a wide variety of creatures. The wall-walker feasts on them all. It relies on stealth, cunning, and its natural weapons to survive. It prefers to be predator, but sometimes finds itself in the role of prey. If faced by a foe it cannot defeat, a wall-walker will flee to find other, more easily bested prey.

The scaly hide of the wall-walker can be used to craft armor and weapons, and is a primary source of materials for the dray of Kragmorta. In many ways, the scaly hide of a wall-walker is superior to many other hides due to its toughness, suppleness, and relatively light weight.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995).


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## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Migrated.
> 
> Next!
> 
> ...




Didn't these first appear in _City by the Silt Sea_ (1994) for Dark Sun?

Better check they haven't already got a conversion somewhere. There's probably one in athas.org, and there might be an official 3E version floating around somewhere...

According to the worthy Echohawk's database, there's a conversion in athas.org's _Terror of Athas_ but no official WotC version, so we should be OK converting it.

While I'm at it I might as well compare the City version to the MCA2 one.

Hmm... well there's one difference, the MCA2 Wall-Walker has 2d12/2d12/2d8 damage attacks in its attack line! That's clearly an error though, since it's Combat entry says it has 2d6 claws and a 2d4 bite.

Anyhow, Medium-sized Magical Beast (Psionic) I suppose.

Anything you'd like to base its stats on, or shall we build it from scratch?

EDIT: The Athas.org version is an Aberration. an interesting idea, but I prefer Magical Beast.


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## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

I've read the MCA2 and City by the Dune Sea versions of the Wall-Walker. The stats Shade posted is the original City version, not the MCA2 one as accredited.

The MCA2 version is a bit more succinct but fundamentally the same. The only noteworthy extra information in it is the No. Appearing is 1-2 (4-16) instead of 1-2. In other words, a hive consists of 4d4 wall-walkers.


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## RavinRay (Nov 13, 2011)

Ok, quick glance: look like it has the _catfall, chameleon, mind blank, synesthete_ (feel light and feel sound effects only)_,_ and_ shadow body_ powers as PLA or Su, and paralysis-dealing poison. It would be fitting if it has the eponymously-named power _wall walker_ given that it can climb on ceilings.


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Ok, quick glance: look like it has the _catfall, chameleon, mind blank, synesthete_ (feel light and feel sound effects only)_,_ and_ shadow body_ powers as PLA or Su, and paralysis-dealing poison. It would be fitting if it has the eponymously-named power _wall walker_ given that it can climb on ceilings.




Yes, I was thinking it was ironic that the Wall Walker didn't have _wall walker_. However, that psionic power halves movement. A normal Climb speed is better unless the surface has a Climb DC too high for "take 10" to beat. I'd rather it have a "wallwalking" SQ resembling a White Dragon's Icewalking, so it doesn't need to make Climb checks when traversing vertical surfaces or ceilings so long as it keeps at least one foot in contact with them (so it only needs to make a Climb check if it jumps).


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## RavinRay (Nov 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I was thinking it was ironic that the Wall Walker didn't have _wall walker_. However, that psionic power halves movement.



True, but we can qualify it along something like Wall walker (Su or Ex): as the power, except that the creature can climb at its normal speed. Maybe restrict it to rocky surfaces.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> True, but we can qualify it along something like Wall walker (Su or Ex): as the power, except that the creature can climb at its normal speed. Maybe restrict it to rocky surfaces.




That's pretty much what I was proposing when I suggested making it a SQ.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's pretty much what I was proposing when I suggested making it a SQ.




Like this one we've used a number of times?  

Wallcrawling (Ex): A deadly pudding need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Like this one we've used a number of times?
> 
> Wallcrawling (Ex): A deadly pudding need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it.




That looks a good start. The description of it leaping to the attack suggests it can perform jumps while wallwalking, so I fancy expanding it a bit. Could also do with a change of name and type. How's this:

* Wallwalking (Ps):* A wall-walker need not make Climb checks to  traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains  its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no  special bonus to their attacks against it. A wall-walker can make Jump checks and perform the Run action when it uses wallwalking to climb.


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Anyhow, shall I start a Working Draft?

I could pick a monster as a base creature and leave it to you to guess which one I used.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That looks a good start. The description of it leaping to the attack suggests it can perform jumps while wallwalking, so I fancy expanding it a bit. Could also do with a change of name and type. How's this:
> 
> * Wallwalking (Ps):* A wall-walker need not make Climb checks to  traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains  its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no  special bonus to their attacks against it. A wall-walker can make Jump checks and perform the Run action when it uses wallwalking to climb.




I'd rather it remain an (Ex) ability.

What base creature are you considering?


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd rather it remain an (Ex) ability.
> 
> What base creature are you considering?




If I told you, it'd take away the fun of guessing. 

Anyhow, here goes...


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

*Wall-Walker Working Draft*

*Wall-Walker*
 Medium Magical Beast (Psionic)
*Hit Dice:* 6d10+6 (39 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 17 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+9
*Attack:* Claw +9 melee (1d8+3) or bite +9 melee (1d6+3) or sting +9 melee (paralysis)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+3) and bite +7 melee (1d6+1) and sting +7 melee (paralysis)
 *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Paralysis, psi-like abilities
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, low-light vision, tremorsense 60 ft., wallwalking
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 12
*Skills:* Climb +11, Move Silently +8, Spot +5
*Feats:* Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Spring Attack (B)
*Environment:* Underground
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or hive (4-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7-11 HD (Large); 12-18 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This creature is a blend of spider and reptile. Armored scales   cover its body, and its eight legs end in hooked claws.  Its mouth  combines insectile mandibles and reptilian fangs, while its tail ends in  a  barbed stinger.  A pair of multifaceted red eyes sit on either side  of  its head._

Wall-walkers are subterranean hunters named after their incredible  climbing ability.  They use their claws to excavate hives inside a  cavern wall, leaving  great heaps of rock and dirt at the base of the  wall.

Wall-walkers range across immense territories,  and consider everything  that passes nearby to be prey. They are intensely territorial,  especially towards those species of underground predator they recognize  as competitors for food and threats to their hive and young.  Wall-walkers usually attack such rivals on sight.

Wall-walkers have their own language, consisting of sounds made by   rubbing their legs together. Because of the specialized nature of this   language, it cannot be reproduced by humanoids (and most other  creatures) without the use of exotic devices or magic.

*COMBAT*

Wall-walkers hunt alone or in pairs, stalking along ceilings or walls while using their _chameleon_  ability to blend in. A wall-walker will stealthily follow prey until it  sees an opportune moment to strike, it prefers to attack a lone  straggler. An attacking wall-walker drops or leaps onto prey, attempting  to sting  first and paralyze its opponent.  Pairs of wall-walker take  advantage of flanking tactics to overwhelm their foe. If its opponent  appears powerful a wall-walker will assume _shadow body_ before attacking.

Wall-walkers are fiercely protective of their hives and young, and will fight to the death if either are threatened.

 *Paralysis (Ex):* Those hit by a wall-walker's sting attack must succeed   on a DC 16 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds. Any effect that opposes poison, like the _neutralize poison_ spell or a racial resistance or immunity to poison, will affect this paralysis as if it were a poison. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Psi-like Abilities:* Always active—_synesthete_ (feel light and feel sound only); at will—_catfall, __chameleon_; 1/day—_mind blank, shadow body_. Manifester level 6th.

*Wallwalking (Ex):* A wall-walker need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). It retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. A wall-walker can make Jump checks and perform the Run action when it uses wallwalking to climb.

*Skills*:A wall-walker has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

*In Athas*
 In the Dark Sun campaign, wall-walkers are found primarily in the cavern   of Kragmorta.  The dray who reside there are in a state of war with wall-walkers, and fashion armor and weapons from the tough, supple hides   of slain wall-walkers.

 Kalin are wall-walkers' ecological competitors, and terrible battles  often break out when these two predators spot each other. Pairs of  wall-walkers will go out of their way to attack a nearby kalin.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If I told you, it'd take away the fun of guessing.
> 
> Anyhow, here goes...




Smarty pants.  

Phase spider?  (That's what I'd use)


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Smarty pants.
> 
> Phase spider?  (That's what I'd use)




Great minds thought alike. 

Psi-Like Powers next?


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## RavinRay (Nov 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Psi-Like Powers next?



How about…
*Psi-like Abilities:* Always active—_synesthete_ (feel light and feel sound only); at will—_chameleon_; x/day—_catfall, mind blank, shadow body_.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> How about…
> *Psi-like Abilities:* Always active—_synesthete_ (feel light and feel sound only); at will—_chameleon_; x/day—_catfall, mind blank, shadow body_.




Looks good.  3/day for the last bunch?


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## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  3/day for the last bunch?




It should be _personal mind blank_, plain _mind blank_ is the spell version.

They're both pretty powerful for a 6 HD monster, so I'd make them 1/day.

Oh, and how about making _catfall_ at-will. Wall-walkers like to leap down at opponents, so it ought to be able to use that power quite frequently.

What manifester level do you fancy? 6th?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

This all seems fine to me.

Anyone else have the feeling that some of the tactics surrounding the stinger might work well as feats?


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## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> This all seems fine to me.
> 
> Anyone else have the feeling that some of the tactics surrounding the stinger might work well as feats?




Spring Attack as a bonus feat, maybe?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2011)

Yes, that seems right.

Aren't we making wallwalking an Ex ability?

Standard poison for paralysis, I guess.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage paralysis for X rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, that seems right.
> 
> Aren't we making wallwalking an Ex ability?




Well I'm still thinking (Ps) would be more amusing.



freyar said:


> Standard poison for paralysis, I guess.
> 
> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage paralysis for X rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.




I'm thinking it'd be easier adapting the Ghoul's:

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a wall-walker's sting attack must succeed  on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed for Y rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well I'm still thinking (Ps) would be more amusing.




With freyar's support, I think my desire for consistency trumps your personal amusement.  

I'm thinking it'd be easier adapting the Ghoul's:



Cleon said:


> Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a wall-walker's sting attack must succeed  on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed for Y rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.




Looks fine.  Stick with the original's 1d6 rounds?


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## Cleon (Nov 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> With freyar's support, I think my desire for consistency trumps your personal amusement.
> 
> I'm thinking it'd be easier adapting the Ghoul's:
> 
> Looks fine.  Stick with the original's 1d6 rounds?




That'd be alright, I'll *Update* it.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2011)

Your update link went to the original monster stats....

And the working draft doesn't seem updated.  But no problem.  Ghoul's paralysis as adapted is good, but I'd add that immunity to poison (as well as paralysis) negates, since it's supposed to be a poison.  Add in the PLAs, and I think we're done with special abilities, right?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Your update link went to the original monster stats....




Must have pasted in the wrong URL, I'll fix it.



freyar said:


> And the working draft doesn't seem updated.  But no problem.  Ghoul's paralysis as adapted is good, but I'd add that immunity to poison (as well as paralysis) negates, since it's supposed to be a poison.  Add in the PLAs, and I think we're done with special abilities, right?




Yup.

Skills and feats next, methinks.

4 in Spot, 5 in Listen?

Multiattack and Improved Initiative?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Oh, and you reprobates wanted the Wallwalking to be (Ex), even though (Ps) is so much better. I'll change it, unamusing though it is.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2011)

Skills and feats sound right.  

Boy, I was thinking they're a bit soft for CR 5, but they could almost be CR 6 if you compare to xill....  CR 5 will work.


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Skills and feats sound right.




*Updating*...

Hmm, I've got Move Silently and Spot listed in the working draft, not Spot and Listen. Well I did base it on the Phase Spider.

How about giving it Move Silently 5, Spot 4 instead? It does sneak up to prey, after all.

Oh, and I'm now wondering about giving them Tremorsense 60 ft., like a Monstrous Spider or Scorpion.



freyar said:


> Boy, I was thinking they're a bit soft for CR 5, but they could almost be CR 6 if you compare to xill....  CR 5 will work.




Xill have Planewalk. A Wall-Walker can't pop out of thin air next to a victim and attack, then carry paralysed victims to another plane to devour. That makes them nasty foes for 6th level characters, who can't even cast _dimensional anchor_. Unless they can kill the xill in the 2 rounds it takes to fade away they'll lose a PC with little chance of recovery.

Oh, and Xill have a formidable 21 Spell Resistance, too...

I'm sticking to Challenge Rating 5 for the Wall-Walker.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

I'll throw my support to Move Silently 5, Spot 4, tremorsense 60 ft., and CR 5.


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## RavinRay (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll throw my support to Move Silently 5, Spot 4, tremorsense 60 ft., and CR 5.



Good point you made about the xill comparison, Shade, and those skill points seem all right to me.


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll throw my support to Move Silently 5, Spot 4, tremorsense 60 ft., and CR 5.




*Updating*...


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2011)

Looks pretty good.  And, no, I wasn't saying they're quite as good as xill, just that they are also worth a somewhat boosted CR compared to some base stats.


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good.  And, no, I wasn't saying they're quite as good as xill, just that they are also worth a somewhat boosted CR compared to some base stats.




So are we done with the stats and ready for the flavour?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So are we done with the stats and ready for the flavour?




It appears so.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So are we done with the stats and ready for the flavour?




It appears so.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> It appears so.




I'm seeing double again!



Shade said:


> It appears so.




I'm seeing double again!

*Ahem* 

Are you having this problem because the Enworld server's so slow at the moment?

So, would you care to propose some flavour?

You'll only need to post it the once...


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Are you having this problem because the Enworld server's so slow at the moment?




Yes I am.

Yes I am.



Cleon said:


> So, would you care to propose some flavour?
> 
> You'll only need to post it the once...




Sure.  It'll be so nice, I'll post it thrice!


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

_This creature is a blend of spider and reptiles. Armored scales cover its body, and its eight legs end in hooked claws.  Its mouth bears both insectile mandibles and reptilian fangs, while its tail ends in a barbed stinger.  A pair of multifaceted red eyes sit on either side of its head._

Wall-walkers are subterranean hunters named for their unusal climbing locomotion.  They build hives inside the walls of caverns, using their powerful claws to scoop out rock and dirt, which then is deposited in great heaps at the base of the wall. Wall-walkers range far and wide, and they consider everything that passes near them to be prey.

Wall-walkers compete primarily with kalin within their ecological niche. The two species attack one another on sight.

Wall-walkers have their own language, consisting of sounds made by rubbing their legs together. Because of the specialized nature of this language, it cannot be reproduced by other creatures.

COMBAT

Wall-walkers hunt alone or in pairs, following prey from overhead or along a side wall while using their chameleon abilities to blend in. When an opportunity arises, a wall-walker drops, attempting to sting first and paralyze prey.  Pairs generally try to attack lone stragglers, taking advantage of flanking tactics to overwhelm their foe.

Wall-walkers are fiercely protective of their hives and young, and will fight to the death if either are threatened.

*In Athas*
In the Dark Sun campaign, wall-walkers are found primarily in the cavern of Kragmorta.  The dray who reside there are in a state of war with wall-walkers, and fashion armor and weapons from the tough, supple hides of slain wall-walkers.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2011)

Looks great to me!


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> _This creature is a blend of spider and reptiles. Armored scales cover its body, and its eight legs end in hooked claws.  Its mouth bears both insectile mandibles and reptilian fangs, while its tail ends in a barbed stinger.  A pair of multifaceted red eyes sit on either side of its head._




"Spider and *reptiles*"? Both singular or both plural, if you please.

I'd prefer "Its mouth combines" over "bears both".



Shade said:


> Wall-walkers are subterranean hunters named for their unusal climbing locomotion.  They build hives inside the walls of caverns, using their powerful claws to scoop out rock and dirt, which then is deposited in great heaps at the base of the wall. Wall-walkers range far and wide, and they consider everything that passes near them to be prey.




"unusal climbing locomotion"?

This could do with some work - especially the final sentence, which is rather vague.



Shade said:


> Wall-walkers compete primarily with kalin within their ecological niche. The two species attack one another on sight.




I'd rather this be more generic, something about them attacking their natural competitors on sight. We could mention the Kalin under the In Athas section.



Shade said:


> Wall-walkers have their own language, consisting of sounds made by rubbing their legs together. Because of the specialized nature of this language, it cannot be reproduced by other creatures.




Surely with the right equipment (carved sticks?), anatomy (some sapient insect might have similar anatomy) or magic (_tongues_) aonther creature could reproduce this language?



Shade said:


> COMBAT
> 
> Wall-walkers hunt alone or in pairs, following prey from overhead or along a side wall while using their chameleon abilities to blend in. When an opportunity arises, a wall-walker drops, attempting to sting first and paralyze prey.  Pairs generally try to attack lone stragglers, taking advantage of flanking tactics to overwhelm their foe.
> 
> Wall-walkers are fiercely protective of their  hives and young, and will fight to the death if either are threatened.




The above looks OK, although surely single wall-walkers will prefer stragglers too? I'd consider adding something about it using _shadow body_.



Shade said:


> *In Athas*
> In the Dark Sun campaign, wall-walkers are found primarily in the cavern of Kragmorta.  The dray who reside there are in a state of war with wall-walkers, and fashion armor and weapons from the tough, supple hides of slain wall-walkers.




Add Kalin.

Suggested revision...

_This creature is a blend of spider and reptile. Armored scales  cover its body, and its eight legs end in hooked claws.  Its mouth combines insectile mandibles and reptilian fangs, while its tail ends in a  barbed stinger.  A pair of multifaceted red eyes sit on either side of  its head._

Wall-walkers are subterranean hunters named after their incredible climbing ability.  They use their claws to excavate hives inside a cavern wall, leaving  great heaps of rock and dirt at the base of the wall.

Wall-walkers range across immense territories,  and consider everything that passes nearby to be prey. They are intensely territorial, especially towards those species of underground predator they recognize as competitors for food and threats to their hive and young. Wall-walkers usually attack such rivals on sight.

Wall-walkers have their own language, consisting of sounds made by  rubbing their legs together. Because of the specialized nature of this  language, it cannot be reproduced by humanoids (and most other creatures) without the use of exotic devices or magic.

COMBAT

Wall-walkers hunt alone or in pairs, stalking along ceilings or walls while using their _chameleon_ ability to blend in. A wall-walker will stealthily follow prey until it sees an opportune moment to strike, it prefers to attack a lone straggler. An attacking wall-walker drops or leaps onto prey, attempting to sting  first and paralyze its opponent.  Pairs of wall-walker take advantage of flanking tactics to overwhelm their foe. If its opponent appears powerful a wall-walker will assume _shadow body_ before attacking.

Wall-walkers are fiercely protective of their hives and young, and will fight to the death if either are threatened.

*In Athas*
In the Dark Sun campaign, wall-walkers are found primarily in the cavern  of Kragmorta.  The dray who reside there are in a state of war with  wall-walkers, and fashion armor and weapons from the tough, supple hides  of slain wall-walkers.

Kalin are wall-walkers' ecological competitors, and terrible battles often break out when these two predators spot each other. Pairs of wall-walkers will go out of their way to attack a nearby kalin.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

Cleon, master of descriptive text...


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Cleon, master of descriptive text...




Do you consider it sufficiently masterful for me to add it to the *Working Draft*?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Sure, let's get this one done.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Do you consider it sufficiently masterful for me to add it to the *Working Draft*?




Go for it.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure, let's get this one done.




*Ta da!*

That looks like we're done with them.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Now we just need Shade to archive it in homebrews, and we're ready for the next one.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Now we just need Shade to archive it in homebrews, and we're ready for the next one.




We don't have many psionic critters left now, I believe.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Here's a lightly-psionic themed creature...

*Jarbo*
Climate/Terrain: Any desert 
Frequency: Common 
Organization: Flock/colony 
Activity Cycle: Varies (usually night) 
Diet: Herbivore 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1d20 
Armor Class: 7 
Movement: 24 
Hit Dice: ½ (1d4 hp) 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d3 
Special Attacks: Nil 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (2’ tall) 
Morale: Unreliable (2-4) 
XP Value: 7 

The jarbo is a hardy rodent that resembles the kangaroo rat, but it’s larger, reaching a mature height of 2 feet at the shoulder. Its coat is typically sand colored or tawny, but pelt markings vary, the better to blend with their home terrain.

Jarbo species differ in appearance in other ways, mainly in ear size or number of toes. All share the round, furry body, stubby forelegs, very long hind legs, and a long tail. In some species the tail is furred, in others not, but all use it for balance as they skitter on their hind legs at enormous speed across the desert sand.

The jarbo has a psionic ability to sense water across great distances, independent of wind currents. This works as a variant of heightened senses (see The Complete Psionics Handbook), a psychometabolic devotion that applies to the jarbo’s sense of smell, and for sensing water only. A teaspoonful of water can lure a flock of jarbos from 100 yards, a sealed barrel can draw them from a mile away, and an oasis brings them in from anywhere throughout an entire region.

Combat: Jarbos fear larger creatures and flee from any conflict. They run with blinding speed, their chief defense. The only aggressive jarbos are those who see their masters (if they have one) threatened. Rough loyal companions, they are ineffective as protectors; their sharp teeth inflict only 1d3 points of damage.

Jarbos are not prone to diseas, but in rare cases a “foaming sickness” like rabies strikes one and drives it mad. The insane jarbo attacks any creature in sight, fighting to the death. Victims must make a successful Constitution check to avoid being infected with a serious disease (as per the common rat).

Habitat/Society: Jarbos live in migratory colonies (flocks) that travel by night from one source of water to the next, running ahead of their many predators. On arrival at a new site, the colony locates a dry stream bed or the foot of a cliff and digs two dozen or more nests, each a long tunnel, a foot wide, and leading to a burrow 3 feet in diameter. The flexible jarbos easily squeeze through the winding tunnels.

After a few nights or a week, predators usually locate this rich source of food, so the jarbos move on with the next moonrise, keeping, as a always, a few steps ahead of those who would eat them.

Ecology: Virtually all predators dine on jarbos. The rodents are an important link in many desert food chains.

Jarbos, themselves, feed on seeds, grass, and insects. They often attract travelers’ interest and envy because they can survive on very little water. An adult jarbo can thrive on a few tablespoons of water per day, or go up to a week between major waterings. For the most part, their diet provides them with enough fluid. Their ability to sense water serves to help them locate the concentrations of edible vegetation and insects that cluster around what little water there is to be found.

Jarbo pelts are too thin for the fur trade, but the small skins are sometimes used as decorations on ceremonial garb or furniture. A good jarbo pelt is worth up to one gp in some regions.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #35 (1992).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One version.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's a lightly-psionic themed creature...
> 
> *Jarbo*




So, it's basically an oversized kangaroo rat with psionic water dowsing that sometimes get a "foaming sickness".

Take a dire rat and reduce it one size to Tiny, switch it to a Magical Beast (Psionic). Drop the climb speed and increase the ground speed. Add a racial bonus to Jump checks.

There doesn't seem to be a psionic power that matches its ability. I'd suggest we treat it as _locate object_ (water only).


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

It says the locate water ability is derived from _heightened senses_, which doesn't have am equivalent power. We could give it another sense-based power like _danger sense_ or just a (Ps) SQ that bonuses its sense rolls.


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2011)

Maybe increase the range on locate object, but I think you're about right.  I might make the sick ones an underbar with slightly modified stats.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Maybe increase the range on locate object, but I think you're about right.  I might make the sick ones an underbar with slightly modified stats.




Hmm, the Jarbo's flavour text says it can detect a teaspoon full at 100 yards. That's less than the spell's minimum range of 520 feet.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, but it can detect a sealed barrel at a mile.


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## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, but it can detect a sealed barrel at a mile.




So, something like a (Ps) version of a shark's Keen Scent that detects water instead of blood?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

That would work.  In fact, I have a funny feeling we've done that before.  Hmmph.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Modifying keen scent as an attempt:

Dowsing (Ps): A jarbo can detect water at ranges of up to a mile.

Not sure if that's too simplified or not.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Modifying keen scent as an attempt:
> 
> Dowsing (Ps): A jarbo can detect water at ranges of up to a mile.
> 
> Not sure if that's too simplified or not.




How about...

*Dowse Water (Ps):* A jarbo can locate any water in a 300-foot radius, even as little as a teaspoonful. It can sense the direction of larger quantities of water at longer ranges - up to a mile for a barrel of water, 50 miles for an oasis.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about...
> 
> *Dowse Water (Ps):* A jarbo can locate any water in a 300-foot radius, even as little as a teaspoonful. It can sense the direction of larger quantities of water at longer ranges - up to a mile for a barrel of water, 50 miles for an oasis.




That works for me.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> That works for me.




Checking the current *Homebrew*...

The bite should be +6 melee, not +4.

You should cut out the disease from the standard Jarbo, it's only a "Frothing Jarbo" that has a diseased bite.

The Will save really ought to be +1. It doesn't seem ferocious enough to be a dire beast.

No need to include the "Swim checks" in skills.

I'd also change the Advancement to —.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2011)

Agreed with Cleon on all counts, though I imagine the swim check bit is just part of standard language.

Skill ranks into Hide, since they're mostly prey animals?


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreed with Cleon on all counts, though I imagine the swim check bit is just part of standard language.




The swim check is presumably a holdover from the Dire Rat used as the base creature. The Jarbo cut the Dire Rat's swim speed, but I guess Shade missed one of the references to Swim that needed to be cut from skills.



freyar said:


> Skill ranks into Hide, since they're mostly prey animals?




I'd split the SPs between Listen and Spot and give them a racial bonus to *Hide when in desert environments.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I'm tempted to make the "Frothing Jarbo" a more formidable combatant, maybe with a Frenzy ability that boosts its Str, speed and/or attacks?

Also, I'd call the disease "Frothing Fever" and note that it turns infected Jarbos into Frothing Jarbos.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd just say that the frothing jarbo gets rage as per the dire wolverine (for ex).  

I'd like to make the disease transmitted more interesting than filth fever too, if possible.  Maybe cackle fever, since it does Wis damage, which seems thematically appropriate for a rage-causing disease.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd just say that the frothing jarbo gets rage as per the dire wolverine (for ex).




The problem with Rage is that a Jarbo only has 3 hit points, so is unlikely to survive the attack it needs to provoke its rage.

I'd prefer a Frenzy that triggers whenever it enters combat, maybe adapted from the Sahuagin's Blood Frenzy.
* 	Blood Frenzy:* Once per day a sahuagin that takes damage in combat can fly into a  frenzy in the following round, clawing and biting madly until either it  or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Constitution and +2 Strength, and  takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. A sahuagin cannot end its frenzy  voluntarily.
​Perhaps something like this:

*Frothing Frenzy (Ex) #1:* Once per day, a frothing jarbo that enters combat can fly into a  frenzy in the following round, biting madly until either it  or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Constitution and +2 Strength, and  takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. A jarbo cannot end its frothing frenzy  voluntarily.

I'd probably modify the bonuses though, maybe borrow some inspiration from the Dragon #318 Liopleurodon.
*Frenzy (Ex):* If a liopleurodon is reduced to less than half its normal maximum hit points, it flies into a terrible rage of frenzied activity. During a frenzy, the liopleurodon gains a +4 bonus to its Armor Class and attack rolls. Its swim speed gains a +30 foot bonus, and if it makes a full attack action it gains an additional bite attack. The frenzy persists for 1 minute, after which the liopleurodon becomes fatigued. A liopleurodon cannot enter a frenzy while it is fatigued.​*Frothing Frenzy (Ex) #2:* A frothing jarbo that enters combat will fly into a  frenzy in the following round, biting madly until either it  or its opponent is dead. It gains a +2 bonus to its Armor Class and Strength, plus a +10 foot bonus to its speed. if it makes a full attack action it gains an additional bite attack. The frenzy persists for 1 minute, after which the jarbo becomes fatigued for 1 hour. A jarbo cannot end its frothing frenzy  voluntarily or enter a frothing frenzy while it is fatigued.



freyar said:


> I'd like to make the disease transmitted more interesting than filth fever too, if possible.  Maybe cackle fever, since it does Wis damage, which seems thematically appropriate for a rage-causing disease.




I like the Wisdom damage idea. A filth fever based version was problematic since the ability damage it does to an infected Jarbo impairs its combat abilities.

*Disease (Ex):* Any creature bitten by a frothing jarbo is exposed to frothing fever. A jarbo that take Wisdom damage from frothing fever become a frothing jarbos until it dies or recovers from the disease.

_Frothing fever_—bite, Fortitude DC 11, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Wis. The save DC is Constitution-based.

I'm wondering about adding a +2 racial bonus to the DC.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

I like what you guys have come up with!

Updated.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like what you guys have come up with!
> 
> Updated.




Maybe add a micro stat-block for a Jarbo in Frothing Frenzy?

*Frenzied Frothing Jarbo*
Speed: 70 ft. (14 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 frothing frenzy), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–9
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d3-1 plus disease)
Full Attack: 2 bites +6 melee (1d3-1 plus disease)
Special Attacks: Disease, frothing frenzy
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +16, Jump +25, Listen +5, Spot +5


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Hmm, you know 60 ft. is a very high ground speed for a Tiny creature in 3E. Maybe we should make it 50 ft., and 60 ft. for the Frenzied Jarbo?


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey, this looks good.

I'd be fine with reducing speed to 50 ft, even 40 ft if that seems more reasonable.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hey, this looks good.
> 
> I'd be fine with reducing speed to 50 ft, even 40 ft if that seems more reasonable.




The original had a 24" speed, equal to a light warhorse. That's very fast for a creature of its size.

SRD horses have 50 ft. or 60 ft. speed (the light warhorse is 60 ft), so I'd prefer 50/60 ft. speeds for the Jarbos over 40/50 ft.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

50/60 ft works.


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## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> 50/60 ft works.




That'd make it:

*Jarbo*
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Skills: Hide +16, Jump +20, Listen +5, Spot +5

*Frenzied Frothing Jarbo*
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
 Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 frothing frenzy), touch 18, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–9
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d3-1 plus disease)
Full Attack: 2 bites +6 melee (1d3-1 plus disease)
Special Attacks: Disease, frothing frenzy
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +16, Jump +24, Listen +5, Spot +5


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Sure thing.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure thing.




Anything else for them statwise?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't think so; these are fairly simple.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't think so; these are fairly simple.




That's it then.

Next!


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

Updated.

We just need CR, weight, and desc/flavor/tactics.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

Is that 2 ft including the tail?  Anyway, just scale them down from a dire rat to get about 6-7 lb.

Tactics: Jarbos are unassuming, gentle creatures whose first instinct is to run and hide rather than fight.  Sadly for them, this makes jarbos common meals for desert predators.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We just need CR, weight, and desc/flavor/tactics.




Challenge Rating 1/6?

1/3 for the Frothing version?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2012)

CR 1/6 and 1/3 seem about right to me.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> CR 1/6 and 1/3 seem about right to me.




That just leaves the weight.

Let's see... they're similar in build and size to a big Potoroid (a "Rat-Kangaroo") like a Long-Nosed Potoroo, which is about 2 feet long (including 7 to 10 inches of tail) and weight 1.5 to 4.5 pounds.

"A typical jarbo is 2 feet long (including 9 inches of tail) and weighs 2 to 4 pounds."?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2012)

If the two feet includes the tail, then I'm fine with that.  Great.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> If the two feet includes the tail, then I'm fine with that.  Great.






Yes it includes the tail, which is why it said "including 9 inches of tail".


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

I know, I just repeat things sometimes.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I know, I just repeat things sometimes.




That seems to it then.

...

That seems to it then.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2012)

While working on flavor text, I came across this...



> Jarbos live in migratory colonies (flocks) that travel by night from one source of water to the next, running ahead of their many predators




That suggest we need to change the org line.  Simply replace "pack" with "flock"?


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2012)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Works for me.




Fine by me!


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2012)

Updated.  Did I paraphrase the flavor text sufficiently?


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Did I paraphrase the flavor text sufficiently?




Hmm, I think that first paragraph needs a bit of work.

What do you think of:

Jarbos are desert-dwelling nocturnal rodents that travel in migratory  flocks in search of water. They have a clairvoyant sense that allows them to "smell" water from many miles away, even if it is buried in a dry stream bed or the foot of a cliff. Upon arriving at a water source, a jarbo flock sets up a colony by digging two dozen or more burrows. Each burrow is a long, winding tunnel a foot wide, easily enough for the flexible jarbo to squeeze through, which ends in a nest 3  feet in diameter. After a few nights or weeks, predators usually locate the colony, forcing the jarbos to move on with the next moonrise. Thus they keep ahead of those who would eat them.

Jarbos feed on seeds, grass, and insects. They can survive on very  little water (just a few tablespoons of per day), and their ability to  sense water helps them locate concentrations of edible vegetation and  insects clustered around water sources.

Jarbo pelts are sometimes used as decorations on ceremonial garb or furniture, fetching up to 1 gp in the right markets.

A typical jarbo is 2 feet long (including 9 inches of tail) and weighs 2  to 4 pounds.  Jarbo subspecies differ in ear size, number of toes, and  the presence or absence of fur on the tail.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

That looks good. Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> That looks good. Updated.




That looks good, I think they're finished.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That looks good, I think they're finished.



Yes.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes.




Next?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

*Wingless Wonder, True *
Climate/Terrain: Any except arctic 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Solitary or mated pair 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Omnivore 
Intelligence: Low (5-7) 
Treasure: Q×4 
Alignment: Chaotic neutral 
No. Appearing: 1-2
Armor Class: 8 
Movement: 6, Sw 4 
Hit Dice: 2+2 
THAC0: 19 
No. of Attacks: 10 
Damage/Attack: 2-8/1 ×9 
Special Attacks: Psionic blast, wild magic 
Special Defenses: Anti-Magic Shell 
Magic Resistance: 90%  
Size: S (4’ tall) 
Morale: Fearless (19) 
XP Value: 975 

*Wingless Wonder, Transformed *
Climate/Terrain: Any 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Omnivore 
Intelligence: As previously possessed 
Treasure: Any (likely Nil) 
Alignment: As previously possessed 
No. Appearing: 1 
Armor Class: 8 
Movement6, Sw 4 
Hit Dice: As previously possessed 
THAC0: 17 
No. of Attacks: 10 
Damage/Attack: 2-8/1 ×9 
Special Attacks: See below 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: 90% 
Size: S (4’ tall) 
Morale: As previously possessed 
XP Value: Varies 


The alkada, or “wingless wonder”, is a comical beast that resembles a walking egg (which it has also been called). It stands rather unsteadily on two weak legs that end in rubbery, sticky pads, and has two small arms, which it flaps constantly; hence its most popular name. The only sound it can make is a high-pitched chittering.

Wonders are blue-green in color, with purplish undersides. They redden slightly when angry or excited. A wonder’s mouth is atop its head, surrounded by nine tentacles (old tales and records suggest that there was once a related species that had twelve tentacles – and additional powers not possessed by wonders today).

These pitifully clumsy, waddling misfits of nature are often more deadly than they appear. Many of them are in reality far more powerful, transformed creatures – such as high-level wizards.

Combat: Wingless wonders are curious, shortsighted (10’ or so effective vision and infravision), and seemingly fearless. They wander through life feeling along everything they come into contact with, employing their mouth-fringe of nine rubbery, retractile tentacles.

A wonder’s tentacles are 2 to 12 feet in length, extending or shortening as it desires, and serve to handle food and to aid the wonder in moving about. Their ends are rubbery and sticky, able to grasp and hold anything they touch (a Strength of 13 or greater can break a wonder’s grip, as can alcohol and oil of slipperiness). Curiously, wonders cannot be held by any sort of webs, or by sovereign glue or viscid globs (produced by the wand of the same name, detailed in FOR2/The Drow of the Underdark), although spells such as entangle do affect them.

A wonder can extrude a bony hook from deep within each tentacle, to grasp struggling food or to slash when fighting off a foe. This does 1 hp of damage. In any round of combat, every tentacle can strike at a foe (or multiple foes, if the wonder is surrounded), twice. The first attack does damage (1 hp per successfullystriking tentacle). The second attack is an attempt to grasp the foe: roll d20 for the target, and d10 for the wonder, adding to the wonder’s total the number of tentacles it’s using (tentacles engaged against another foe, or holding items, cannot participate). If the target’s total is higher, the target tears free of the tentacles; if the wonder’s adjusted total is higher, the target is dragged within reach of the wonder’s mouth, and automatically bitten (for 2d4 damage). The wonder always releases a target after one bite.

Foes attempting to sever a wonder’s tentacles will find that they have an effective Armor Class of 3 (able to suddenly retract from harm), and one can only be severed if it is dealt 7 hp of damage or more in a single round (total hp damage to tentacles does not matter, except to kill the wonder by damage accumulation).

Wingless wonders radiate a continuous, natural anti-magic shell, that stops all magical attacks inches from their skins. This aura is visible as a faint purple-white faerie fire glow around any wonder that is carrying an egg (developing young inside itself).

This is doubly curious, as wonders seem to be creatures possessing natural “wild” magic. Once per day, a wonder can unleash a random minor magical effect – akin to the powers unleashed by a wand of wonder. Such an effect will be at the time of a wonder’s choosing, but it can’t control just what will occur. The magical effect seems to draw power from the anti-magic shell, which flickers and pulses visibly. The round in which the wild magic effect manifests is the only time spells can penetrate the shell, to affect the wonder itself, although foes of a wonder will have to discover this for themselves.

Wonders regenerate naturally, regaining 1 lost hit point every 2 rounds. This healing power does not seem to extend to the delicate, fuzz-covered outer skin of an alkada: it does not heal quickly, and many wonders are bleeding copiously when found, leaving a bloody trail wherever they go. Wonders are immune to damage from all forms and sources of fire.

Wingless wonders also exhibit a permanent, seemingly-unbreakable mind bar. This functions as the telepathic devotion (detailed in PHBR5/The Complete Psionics Handbook), but attempts to engage a wonder in psionic combat always fail; the wonder’s mind seems to “slip” away. In similar fashion, magical spells that aim to contact or influence the mind fail when used on a wonder; there is a momentary impression of colorful mental chaos, and then the wonder’s mind seems to “slip” away.

The only other psionic activity that a wonder ever exhibits occurs if it is slain: a “dying scream” directed at its killers. This is similar to the mental blast of a mind flayer: it manifests as a cone, aimed by the dying wonder, 60 feet long, 5 feet wide at the base, and 20 feet wide at its end. All creatures in the area of effect must save versus wands at -4 or be confused (as in the wizard spell confusion) for 1d10+2 rounds. They must also save vs. breath weapon or be feebleminded (as the wizard spell). A creature who fails both saves is not mentally affected at all, but is “mind-burnt” for a physical loss of 2d12 hp.

Wonders cannot be stunned or subdued by magical or physical means, and seem mentally unaffected by disasters or great violence occurring around them, chittering and waddling unconcernedly in the midst of a battlefield, or trotting in the heart of an attacking dragon’s breath weapon!

Habitat/Society: Despite its seeming host of immunities and special powers, a wonder is easily killed by purely physical means, and wonders are therefore rare in populated areas.

Wonders are always curious, and are attracted to brilliant red or purple colors and flashy objects. They are fascinated by gems; any treasure a wonder carries are gems it has swallowed. These stomach-stones are typically a wide variety of pretty stones, some nearly valueless. Wonders seem to spend most of their time curiously examining things around them, and sampling them to see if they can be eaten.

Wonders are bisexual. Whenever solitary wonders encounter another of their species, the two entwine tentacles and chitter excitedly in chorus for 2 rounds. This appears to be mating contact. Wonders may wander together in mated pairs, but are usually solitary.

Wonders develop eggs within their bodies, excreting them when they are ready to hatch (gestation seems to take 6 or 7 months). An egg falls to the ground as its parent wonder wanders away, ignoring it, and splits open in 1d4 rounds, to reveal a small and even more clumsy (but otherwise fully-developed, having 1+1 HD but all the other statistics of an adult) wonder.

Ecology: Wonders eat mainly fruits and vegetables, although they will devour worms, birds, small animals that stray into the reach of their tentacles, and carrion.

The flesh of a wonder is poisonous (save vs. poison at -1, or take 3d10 points of damage, within 1d4 rounds; if the save is successful, only 1d4 points of damage are suffered, accompanied by a brief, wrenching nausea). Wonders lose their anti-magical properties immediately upon death – and if part of a wonder is cut away from its living body, that part retains no special powers or properties. A Wonder.s skin rots away in 3+1d4 days, but while still intact, it can serve as a cloak protecting (half to no damage, if saving throw successful) against non-magical fire.

*Transformed Wonders*

There is a 20% chance that any wingless wonder encountered will not be a “natural” wonder at all, but a transformed being. Most transformed beings are human mages. Those who encounter a wonder never know if it is merely a curious beast, a helpless victim able to unleash only random small magics, or a disguised magic user, able to cast powerful memorized spells!

Many wizards from Netheril escaped into wonder form when their kingdom fell, using a spell later (and independently) duplicated by drow mages; the wonderform spell included in TSR 1083 Menzuberranzan. Such transformed folk can speak normally, and work magic, while in wonder-shape, and escape from wonderform at will. As the being’s mind is completely shielded from contact, and the wonderform spell masks its true alignment aura with a “normal” wonder’s alignment, this can be a very effective hiding-place from a foe who is able to probe disguises readily.

Others are not so lucky – and they are the sort most known to surface-world humans, through tales and ballads. Several centuries ago, the notorious “spellslinger” Durshult the Mage (who made a career of challenging mages, defeating them in spell-combat, and then seizing all their magic) was turned into a wingless wonder by the sorceress Haleera Shundyl, after losing a sorcerous duel to her in Baldur’s Gate. After Durshult’s fate became widely known, it was for a time a fad to imprison enemies in wingless wonder form.

The infamous “Rebel Mage” Phaerl Godeep, a drow male who rebelled against the dictates of the ruling priestesses in his city, was forcibly imprisoned in wonder form – and presumably is still a helpless, ridiculed prisoner. The drow wizard known only as “the Watchspider Wizard” is known to have taken refuge in wonder form to elude a yochlol summoned and sent (by an angered priestess) to slay him. Several human mages, including Auziiyra Twelvestars of Tethyr and Brondeth of the Broken Staff, may still survive somewhere in the Underdark, in the wonder forms they assumed to escape death at the hands of drow attackers who overwhelmed the human mining community they were guarding.

In Menzoberranzan, the drow wizards Thaerlbone Faen Tlabbar and Master (of the Academy) Daethleness Tuin’Tarl are known to have escaped the justice of Lloth by taking wonder form – and Ardreyth Mizzrym, Matron of her House at the time, received a fatal surprise when she casually lashed a chittering wonder out of her path during a hunt – and it snarled and unleashed a meteor swarm that fried her and most of her family around her. When the drifting smoke thinned, the blackened wonder was seen, by the astonished drow survivors, standing unconcernedly amid the cooked carnage, having survived the full damage of its own spell. It sighed and shuffled slowly away. That transformed wonder is still out there in the Underdark, somewhere; the drow dared not try to stop it going on about its business.

Surface-world wizards have developed spells that specifically polymorph a foe into wonder-form, and drow priestesses of the Underdark also use a spell to work the same effect, which keeps the wizards alive in case their power is needed later, but as vulnerable, helpless, non-threatening things. Beings so entrapped cannot speak (though they can use sticks to write words or draw symbols) – they can only chitter, as “natural” wonders do.

Lacking any means to work spells or effectively communicate with others, such unfortunates are trapped, although they retain their human intelligence and knowledge. Existence as a wonder may drive a human insane. Check at the end of each year; to avoid insanity, a percentile roll score must exceed a total of 50 minus the character’s wisdom. A trapped being can always, by force of will, unleash a wonder’s natural random magical effect (as noted earlier), but has no control over what effect occurs.

The only way to free a being trapped in wonder form is during the once-daily round in which they unleash a wild magic effect. During this round, the anti-magic shell becomes visible, and flickers visibly. A dispel magic, remove curse, or properly-worded polymorph other spell cast at the wonder during this round will return the being to its true form – although the being must make a System Shock Survival roll.

Originally appeared in Secrets of the Magister (2000).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> *Wingless Wonder*




Oh dear, this looks like it might get messy. At least for the transformed wonders.

Well, I suppose we can worry about that later and start with the "True Wingless Wonder".

Hold on, the stats you've posted are from _Menzobarranzan_. The _Secrets of the Magister_ version of the Winged Wonder has a few differences.

Also, how can it have 90% Magic Resistance and an _antimagic shell_? Isn't that a 100% magic resistance almost by definition?


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Also, how can it have 90% Magic Resistance and an _antimagic shell_? Isn't that a 100% magic resistance almost by definition?




I suppose if somehow, some way, the latter was negated, the former comes in real handy.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> I suppose if somehow, some way, the latter was negated, the former comes in real handy.




After checking Echohawk's listing I looked up the different versions of the Wingless Wonder and there's some serious differences.

The oldest version from _*Menzoberranzan*_ (1992), is basically as Shade gives above. It has *nine* tentacles.

The next version appears as a concise statblock in _*The Wizard’s Spell Compendium Volume 4*_ (1998). It's basically the same as the Menzoberranzan one, except it has *ten* tentacles and *10* tentacle attacks

But the most recent version from _*Secrets of the Magister*_ (2000) is quite different. It has *eight* tentacles and 8 tentacle attacks, a 4d4 bite attack, a 44% magic resistance and has not got a Swim speed or the "wand of wonder" special attack.

The differences between the first two seem of little relevance - what's a tentacle between friends -  but the *Secrets of the Magister* version looks like another species of the monster.

Are we going to ignore it or give them separate stats?


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The differences between the first two seem of little relevance - what's a tentacle between friends -  but the *Secrets of the Magister* version looks like another species of the monster.
> 
> Are we going to ignore it or give them separate stats?




I'd say that's enough for an underbar at the very least.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd say that's enough for an underbar at the very least.




I'm leaning towards separate stats, it just seems easier.


----------



## freyar (Feb 13, 2012)

Ugh, definitely complicated.

Well, let's start.  I suppose we can count on these being aberrations?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ugh, definitely complicated.
> 
> Well, let's start.  I suppose we can count on these being aberrations?




Definitely Aberration.

There's something about their appearance that makes me think they look like a cross between a Halfling and a Carrion Crawler. That's certainly aberrant enough for me.


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes, certainly aberrant!

We've got Int (5-7).   Cha should be decent, due to the psionic blast.  Perhaps 13?   Wis around 11?

Str appears average.  They are "pitifully clumsy", which does not suggest a good Dex.   AC translates to 12, though, so unless we give 'em natural armor, we need to figure out where the point not granted from Small size comes from.   

Con should be around 13 to explain the "+2" on Hit Dice.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes, certainly aberrant!
> 
> We've got Int (5-7).   Cha should be decent, due to the psionic blast.  Perhaps 13?   Wis around 11?
> 
> ...




I'd give them a bit of natural armour and compensate with a Dexterity low enough to merit a Dex penalty. Even a +1 natural armour, like a Dog, would be something, but I'm thinking more of +2 or +3 NA. A 3E Carrion Crawler has +6 natural armour despite its rubbery flesh.

Putting it together would give us something like this:

Wingless Wonder: Small Aberration, 2 HD, Str 10-11, Dex 6-7, Con 12-13, Int 5-7, Wis 10-11, Cha 13, +3 NA


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes. Let's choose Str 10, Dex 6, Con 12, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 13.  Of course, the "transformed" ones might have much higher Int...

Just wondering if maybe the Secrets of the Magister version could be the form of the transformed wingless wonders for our purposes anyway.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes. Let's choose Str 10, Dex 6, Con 12, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 13.  Of course, the "transformed" ones might have much higher Int...
> 
> Just wondering if maybe the Secrets of the Magister version could be the form of the transformed wingless wonders for our purposes anyway.




The Secrets of the Magister version appear to be victims of _polymorph other_ or the like, since they are trapped in that shape and can't cast spells due to a fad for polymorphing defeated foes into wingless wonders.

The "transformed" wonders are able to cast spells and are usually the result of a wizard casting the _wonderform_ spell on themselves. The resulting "wonder wizard" either has 10 tentacles (Wizard's Spell Compendium 4) or 9 tentacles (Menzoberranzan).


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I'd cut the Bite from the standard attack line, since their combat description strongly indicates it's always a follow-up attack.

The tentacles are pretty short, so I wouldn't give them increased Reach.

Also, they ought to have Improved Grab, probably with a racial bonus, since their tentacles are so sticky.

The Improved Grab should lead to an augmented bite attack (primary Attack instead of Secondary? or a Gnaw "auto-bite" Special Attack like a Squid?).


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd cut the Bite from the standard attack line, since their combat description strongly indicates it's always a follow-up attack.




Good point.



Cleon said:


> The tentacles are pretty short, so I wouldn't give them increased Reach.




Ahem...

"A wonder’s tentacles are 2 to 12 feet in length, extending or shortening as it desires, and serve to handle food and to aid the wonder in moving about."

That is up to three times its height.  I'd say that fits the bill for extended reach!



Cleon said:


> Also, they ought to have Improved Grab, probably with a racial bonus, since their tentacles are so sticky.




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> The Improved Grab should lead to an augmented bite attack (primary Attack instead of Secondary? or a Gnaw "auto-bite" Special Attack like a Squid?).




Good idea.  Gnaw seems a good fit.  Or even something like a roper...

A roper can draw in a creature within 10 feet of itself and bite with a +4 attack bonus in the same round.


----------



## freyar (Feb 27, 2012)

The squid is a bit more like a roper than like Gnaw, I think.  Since it says that a "wonder always releases a target after one bite," I'd go with the squid/roper version.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2012)

Shade said:


> Ahem...
> 
> "A wonder’s tentacles are 2 to 12 feet in length, extending or shortening as it desires, and serve to handle food and to aid the wonder in moving about."




Dang it, I temporarily forgot they telescoped. They're pretty short in their picture.

10 ft. Reach is fine then.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> The squid is a bit more like a roper than like Gnaw, I think.  Since it says that a "wonder always releases a target after one bite," I'd go with the squid/roper version.




A squid style auto-bite is fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Mar 2, 2012)

Put in the standard line about sundering tentacles as in squid, kraken, etc, too?


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Put in the standard line about sundering tentacles as in squid, kraken, etc, too?




Yep, that makes sense.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yep, that makes sense.




I'm not sure about that.

Their tentacles aren't massively long like a Giant Squid or Giant Octopus and there's no mention of them being Sunderable in the original - it just releases a grabbed captive on any hit.


----------



## freyar (Mar 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm not sure about that.
> 
> Their tentacles aren't massively long like a Giant Squid or Giant Octopus and there's no mention of them being Sunderable in the original - it just releases a grabbed captive on any hit.



What about this?


> Foes attempting to sever a wonder’s tentacles will find that they have an effective Armor Class of 3 (able to suddenly retract from harm), and one can only be severed if it is dealt 7 hp of damage or more in a single round (total hp damage to tentacles does not matter, except to kill the wonder by damage accumulation).


----------



## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> What about this?




All I saw was "the grasp of a tentacle can be broken by any hit on it".

Oh, I was looking at the _*Secrets of the Magister*_ (2000) version. The AC 3 and 7 hp tentacles version is from _*Menzoberranzan*_ (1992) and the _*Wizard's Spell Compendium 4*_ (1998).

So, I guess we just picks whichever one we fancy.

The _*Magister*_ wonder is the most recent (2000), and "any hit releases" would be easier to adjudicate.

Still, I don't much mind either way.

We could even use both, with "any hit releases" for the Lesser Wonder and the Sunderable X hit point tentacles for the standard Wonder?


----------



## freyar (Mar 9, 2012)

I prefer the more standard mechanics of the sunder.  And normal grapple rules to get out of the Imp Grab, rather than "any hit."  Surprise, surprise.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> I prefer the more standard mechanics of the sunder.  And normal grapple rules to get out of the Imp Grab, rather than "any hit."  Surprise, surprise.




I have no objection, but 7 hit points seems too much for the sundering hit points considering the whole creature only has 11 hit points.

How about giving each tentacle 1 hit point, so it conserves the "any hit severs" while following standard mechanics?


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I have no objection, but 7 hit points seems too much for the sundering hit points considering the whole creature only has 11 hit points.
> 
> How about giving each tentacle 1 hit point, so it conserves the "any hit severs" while following standard mechanics?




I think that'll work.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> I think that'll work.




Let's do it then!


----------



## freyar (Mar 15, 2012)

How about 2hp, so the wonder loses 1hp each time a tentacle is severed?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about 2hp, so the wonder loses 1hp each time a tentacle is severed?




I'd prefer if its tentacles had 1 hit point and the wonder took 1 point of damage if a tentacle is severed.

Maybe there's a "minimum 1 damage" rule for arm severing.


----------



## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

Well, usually tentacle hit points don't count fully toward critter hp, but I'll give in if you both want that.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, usually tentacle hit points don't count fully toward critter hp, but I'll give in if you both want that.




Let's wait to see which Shade prefers.


----------



## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Let's wait to see which Shade prefers.




I don't have a strong preference for either.  Whethe it comes down to 1 or 2 hp, it's going to get severed on every strike.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> I don't have a strong preference for either.  Whethe it comes down to 1 or 2 hp, it's going to get severed on every strike.




No, there's still the _possibility_ of rolling 1 damage against a 2 hit point tentacle. I'd rather eliminate the chance altogether by making them 1 hp tentacles.


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2012)

Cleon said:


> No, there's still the _possibility_ of rolling 1 damage against a 2 hit point tentacle. I'd rather eliminate the chance altogether by making them 1 hp tentacles.




Maybe if you're a halfling wizard or a rat.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Maybe if you're a halfling wizard or a rat.




Well that's quite possible in D&D!


----------



## freyar (Mar 26, 2012)

I suppose we could do 1 hp per tentacle, wonder loses 1 hp per 2 tentacles severed, but that seems like extra bookkeeping.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> I suppose we could do 1 hp per tentacle, wonder loses 1 hp per 2 tentacles severed, but that seems like extra bookkeeping.




Why not simply 1 hit point per tentacle, wonder takes 1 damage if tentacle sundered? Or, even simpler, no damage on tentacle sundering.


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2012)

Because every other monster with a sunderable tentacle I can find in the SRD loses half the tentacle's hp when the tentacle is sundered.  Even hydras do that.  A roper's strands do seem to be the exception (no damage), but strands are very thin and don't seem precisely to be part of a roper's body the way a tentacle would be.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Because every other monster with a sunderable tentacle I can find in the SRD loses half the tentacle's hp when the tentacle is sundered.  Even hydras do that.  A roper's strands do seem to be the exception (no damage), but strands are very thin and don't seem precisely to be part of a roper's body the way a tentacle would be.




An udoroot has "crowns" with 7 hp apiece and takes no damage if one is severed.

I'd much rather a Walking Wonder and take no damage on sundering than increase the hp to 2 so you feel better about it suffering 1 damage if it loses a tentacle.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2012)

How about they just die when hit?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> How about they just die when hit?




Not just die, make them _*explode*_! Everything's better with explosions!


----------



## freyar (Apr 8, 2012)

Last I checked, udoroots aren't in the SRD.  Shade, what are your thoughts?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Last I checked, udoroots aren't in the SRD.  Shade, what are your thoughts?




*Ahem*.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Not just die, make them _*explode*_! Everything's better with explosions!




YES!  

Now that the udoroot's been pointed out, I favor the "no damage" approach.  These thing just have so few hp to begin with...


----------



## freyar (Apr 10, 2012)

Ahhh, one of them psionic monsters.  OK, then, I'm satisfied too.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ahhh, one of them psionic monsters.  OK, then, I'm satisfied too.




Hallelulah!

Now can anyone remember where we left the working draft? Or who's responsible for it, for that matter...

Hey look, it's a *Shade Homebrew*.

Good, I felt like putting my feet up.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hallelulah!
> 
> Now can anyone remember where we left the working draft? Or who's responsible for it, for that matter...
> 
> ...




No rest for the wicked!  

I just noticed its parenthetical name.  Should it's organization be "cell"?

Updated.

We've been debating tentacles so long I forget...did we decide on whether to use the typical "mind blast" of illithids for its psionic blast?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> No rest for the wicked!
> 
> I just noticed its parenthetical name.  Should it's organization be "cell"?
> 
> ...




I don't remember us deciding on what version of its dying mind blast to use. 

The two earliest have a Mind Flayer mind blast, the most recent does 8d4 force damage with its mind blast.

That suggests to me we give the regular (9-tentacled) wonder a Mind Flayer's Mind Blast Death Throes and the lesser (8-tentacled) wonder a Force Blast Death Throes.


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That suggests to me we give the regular (9-tentacled) wonder a Mind Flayer's Mind Blast Death Throes and the lesser (8-tentacled) wonder a Force Blast Death Throes.




Yep, might as well.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yep, might as well.




Seems we're agreed then.


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2012)

Yup.  So I guess that can get updated.

How do we want to do the wild magic and antimagic auras?  Don't those kind of conflict with each other?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yup.  So I guess that can get updated.
> 
> How do we want to do the wild magic and antimagic auras?  Don't those kind of conflict with each other?




I'd interpret the "anti-magic" as just a very high Spell Resistance. If they actually had true anti-magic there'd be no point to the original version(s) having a Magic Resistance percentage, since no spell would affect them.

The wild magic is simply a 1/day roll on the _*rod of wonder*_ table.


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd interpret the "anti-magic" as just a very high Spell Resistance. If they actually had true anti-magic there'd be no point to the original version(s) having a Magic Resistance percentage, since no spell would affect them.




That probably works best.



Cleon said:


> The wild magic is simply a 1/day roll on the _*rod of wonder*_ table.




Good idea!

How far should the aura extend?


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2012)

OK, I'll agree to all that.  

Re-reading, the wild magic is just a 1/day Su or Sp, as Cleon says, a roll on the rod of wonder table.

Wild Magic (Su):  Once per day, a wingless wonder can create a wild magic effect as a standard action.  To determine the effect, roll d% on the following table.  All save DCs are Charisma-based.

<insert rod of wonder table with modified DCs>


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, I'll agree to all that.
> 
> Re-reading, the wild magic is just a 1/day Su or Sp, as Cleon says, a roll on the rod of wonder table.
> 
> ...




Wouldn't it be easier just to use a roll on the _rod of wonder_ table rather than come up with a new table? We can just add that the effect uses the Walking Wonder's Cha-based DC rather than the rod's DC.


----------



## freyar (Apr 23, 2012)

I did mean just to copy the rod of wonder table.  But I'd rather have a separate copy to remind the DM that DCs are set by the monster rather than the ones for the rod.


----------



## Shade (Apr 23, 2012)

I agree with Cleon here.  No need to reprint the table...just direct DMs to hit and note the save DCs are based on wonder's Charisma.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> I agree with Cleon here.  No need to reprint the table...just direct DMs to hit and note the save DCs are based on wonder's Charisma.




Sounds like enough to write up a special ability. Hint hint.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2012)

Wild Magic (Su): Once per day, a wingless wonder can create a wild magic effect as a standard action. This functions exactly like a rod of wonder, except effects originate from tne wingless wonder and all saving throws have a DC of X.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> Wild Magic (Su): Once per day, a wingless wonder can create a wild magic effect as a standard action. This functions exactly like a rod of wonder, except effects originate from tne wingless wonder and all saving throws have a DC of X.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Looks fine to me!

Care to add it to the Working Draft?

Oh, didn't we decide to give it Improved Grab with its tentacles with "automatic bite damage" like the SRD Octopus or Squid?

Also, I don't think it should have a bite as a standard attack, although I don't mind it in Full Attack.

e.g.:

Attack: Tentacle +1 melee (1)
Full Attack:  9 tentacles +1 melee (1) and bite -4 melee (xdx)


----------



## freyar (May 3, 2012)

It would be a good time for an update.  

And I agree with Cleon on the auto-bite and bite as secondary attacks only.


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> It would be a good time for an update.
> 
> And I agree with Cleon on the auto-bite and bite as secondary attacks only.




Any suggestions for the rest of its stats?


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> It would be a good time for an update.
> 
> And I agree with Cleon on the auto-bite and bite as secondary attacks only.




Aaaaassss youuuuuuuu wiiiiiiiiiissshhhhhh....


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2012)

The original monster bite damage seems to be 2d4.  Sound ok to you two?


----------



## Cleon (May 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> The original monster bite damage seems to be 2d4.  Sound ok to you two?




The _*Secrets of the Magister*_ version has a 4d4 bite, but the others have a 2d4 bite. So, that suggests either 1d8 or 2d4 for the "low-powered" version of the Wonder, and 2d6 for the "Greater Wonder".


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The _*Secrets of the Magister*_ version has a 4d4 bite, but the others have a 2d4 bite. So, that suggests either 1d8 or 2d4 for the "low-powered" version of the Wonder, and 2d6 for the "Greater Wonder".




Which version are we currently working on again?


----------



## Cleon (May 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Which version are we currently working on again?




The regular version. It has ten tentacles, a _rod of wonder_ power and a 90% magic resistance. Its bite does 2d4 damage.

The other version has eight tentacles, a 44% magic resistance and a 4d4 damage bite. It lacks the "wonderblast" but has a death throes ability that does 8d4 force damage to all attackers within 120 feet. Oh, and it doesn't have a Swim speed.

You know, it's debatable if either of those is "lesser" than the other. Which of those is the "Lesser".

Oh, and the _rod of wonder_ version is Chaotic Neutral, while the other is just neutral.

Maybe we should call the former a "Wingless Wonder" and the other a "Walking Egg", and note that they're both called an "Alkada"? They are similar in appearance, so it may be people often mistake an "Egg" for a "Wonder" or vica versa.


----------



## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Seems like a reasonable suggestion.  

Back to the bite: 2d4 hp for the "Wingless Wonder" and perhaps 2d6 or 4d4 for the "Walking Egg" (there's a bit of difference in the average of 2d6 vs 4d4!  I'd be inclined to stick with the higher damage or else boost Str a bit)?


----------



## Cleon (May 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Seems like a reasonable suggestion.
> 
> Back to the bite: 2d4 hp for the "Wingless Wonder" and perhaps 2d6 or 4d4 for the "Walking Egg" (there's a bit of difference in the average of 2d6 vs 4d4!  I'd be inclined to stick with the higher damage or else boost Str a bit)?




Well, 4d4 seems kind of high for a small creature's bite. Maybe 3d4 or 2d8 for the Walking Egg version?


----------



## freyar (May 16, 2012)

3d4 would be ok.  They just have strong jaws!


----------



## Shade (May 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> 3d4 would be ok.  They just have strong jaws!




Yeah, I'm OK with it.


----------



## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'm OK with it.




3d4 it is then!


----------



## freyar (May 18, 2012)

And, for yet another one, ready for skills and feats, or are there SAs or SQs left?


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> And, for yet another one, ready for skills and feats, or are there SAs or SQs left?




Not that I'm aware of, no.

For the skills, the flavour text suggests they're good climbers due to their sucker-feet - racial bonus on Climb?


----------



## Shade (May 22, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Not that I'm aware of, no.
> 
> For the skills, the flavour text suggests they're good climbers due to their sucker-feet - racial bonus on Climb?




Sure!  +6?


----------



## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sure!  +6?




I wouldn't object to +8, since they've got mediocre Strength and pathetic Dexterity.


----------



## freyar (May 23, 2012)

Go with +8.

Ability Focus (Wild Magic) for the feat?  Or give it a racial bonus to that DC and get another feat?


----------



## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Go with +8.
> 
> Ability Focus (Wild Magic) for the feat?  Or give it a racial bonus to that DC and get another feat?




Hmm, we could change it so the wonderblast has the same DCs as the rod, which varies from a DC 13 _enlarge person_ to a DC 18 _flesh to stone_.

Since the DM is rolling on the _rod of wonder_ table anyway, it'll probably be easier to simply use the DCs in the table.

Failing that, I prefer a racial bonus to Ability Focus.

I'm also wondering whether we should increase its Charisma, since the rod has a 4th level spell as a prereq (_confusion_) and _flesh to stone_ is a 6th level spell.

Come to think of it, the minimum DC for _flesh to stone_ is normally 19, not 18 - 10 +6 (spell level) +3 (16 ability score). I wonder where the point went to?


----------



## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

There seems to be a bit of confusion over on the Forgotten Realms thread about what a "Walking Egg" is.



freyar said:


> Ahhh, sorry, "Walking Egg."  But  here, I thought Cleon suggested using "Walking Egg"  for the transformed version.




Just to be clear,I'm thinking the ten-tentacled "wonderblast" version is a "Wingless Wonder" (since it has the _rod of wonder_ power) and the eight-tentacled "forceburst" version is a "Walking  Egg", and they're both an "Alkada".

A "Transformed Wonder" is someone who's been polymorphed into a "Wingless Wonder" - I'm not sure we need bother with that, since we can use standard Alternate Form rules, but I suppose we could do it as a Template or stat up a sample Transformed Wonder if we _really_ wanted too...


----------



## freyar (May 28, 2012)

I slightly prefer the standard monster Cha-based DC for the wonderblast.  Just seems better.  But then let's add a racial bonus, I suppose.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (May 29, 2012)

Cleon said:


> There seems to be a bit of confusion over on the Forgotten Realms thread about what a "Walking Egg" is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We could probably convert the _wonderform_ spell.


----------



## freyar (May 30, 2012)

More of this monster?  AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

  But you're right, we could and probably should.


----------



## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> More of this monster?  AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> But you're right, we could and probably should.




Reading it, we could probably get away with converting the _baleful polymorph_ and _shapechange_ spells rather than having to go the whole hog and template it up.

I _might_ be willing to stat up a sample transformed wonder, though.


----------



## freyar (Jun 5, 2012)

That's probably a good idea.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's probably a good idea.




Well unless you _really_ want to make it a template?


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2012)

No, not really.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> No, not really.




So where are we again?

Oh yes, the "Wonderblast" DC. Current proposal is standard half HD + Charisma mod with an added racial bonus.

A _rod of wonder_ goes from DC 13 to 18, so what racial bonus shall we use?


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

These aren't very tough aside from the mind blast, so the CR shouldn't be very high.  A racial bonus of +2 should be enough for the wonderblast.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> These aren't very tough aside from the mind blast, so the CR shouldn't be very high.  A racial bonus of +2 should be enough for the wonderblast.




Well they have a lot of attacks (albeit ones that do little damage), Reach, and impressive Spell Resistance, so they shouldn't have a negligible Challenge Rating.


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Still, probably CR 2, 3 max.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Still, probably CR 2, 3 max.




I'd accept either, but I'm leaning towards 3.


----------



## freyar (Jun 12, 2012)

It'd be a bit of a glass canon at CR 3, though; wish we could go CR 2.5.  Really, it's not going to get to do much if a figher makes the Will save vs the mind blast.  

By the way, did we decide on bite damage?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> It'd be a bit of a glass canon at CR 3, though; wish we could go CR 2.5.  Really, it's not going to get to do much if a figher makes the Will save vs the mind blast.




I'm OK pegging them at CR 2 for the time being.



freyar said:


> By the way, did we decide on bite damage?




Yes, we settled on 2d4 for the "Wingless Wonder" and 3d4 for the "Walking Egg".


----------



## freyar (Jun 14, 2012)

Ah, right.  

Are we about done with the stats on these?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ah, right.
> 
> Are we about done with the stats on these?




Haven't we decided to give the standard Wingless Wonder 10 tentacle attacks, not 9 as it is in the Working Draft?

Also, doesn't it need a Death Throes? Or is that only the Walking Egg version?

Maybe I should start up a Working Draft so we can keep track of the changes, since Shade seems to be occupied elsewhere.


----------



## freyar (Jun 25, 2012)

Sigh.  I guess it's time to get back on the horse, or try to anyway.  Thinking about Shade a lot today.

Looking at the original monster, I see a bunch of stuff I think we've missed:



> Curiously, wonders cannot be held by any sort of webs, or by sovereign glue or viscid globs (produced by the wand of the same name, detailed in FOR2/The Drow of the Underdark), although spells such as entangle do affect them.



Some sort of immunity to stickiness?  Or a racial bonus to Escape Artist or similar?



> Wonders regenerate naturally, regaining 1 lost hit point every 2 rounds. This healing power does not seem to extend to the delicate, fuzz-covered outer skin of an alkada: it does not heal quickly, and many wonders are bleeding copiously when found, leaving a bloody trail wherever they go. Wonders are immune to damage from all forms and sources of fire.



Immunity to fire for sure.  Also looks like fast healing 1 with weird flavor (which I'd be fine with ignoring).



> Wingless wonders also exhibit a permanent, seemingly-unbreakable mind bar. This functions as the telepathic devotion (detailed in PHBR5/The Complete Psionics Handbook), but attempts to engage a wonder in psionic combat always fail; the wonder’s mind seems to “slip” away. In similar fashion, magical spells that aim to contact or influence the mind fail when used on a wonder; there is a momentary impression of colorful mental chaos, and then the wonder’s mind seems to “slip” away.



Permanent mind blank or something like the closed mind feat?  I think I like mind blank better.



> The only other psionic activity that a wonder ever exhibits occurs if it is slain: a “dying scream” directed at its killers. This is similar to the mental blast of a mind flayer: it manifests as a cone, aimed by the dying wonder, 60 feet long, 5 feet wide at the base, and 20 feet wide at its end. All creatures in the area of effect must save versus wands at -4 or be confused (as in the wizard spell confusion) for 1d10+2 rounds. They must also save vs. breath weapon or be feebleminded (as the wizard spell). A creature who fails both saves is not mentally affected at all, but is “mind-burnt” for a physical loss of 2d12 hp.




I wonder if we got the psionic blast mixed up.  It seems like it should only work during the death throes, and then it is pretty far from the 3.X mind flayer psionic blast.  Did mind flayers' blasts previously cause confusion and feebleminding?



> Wonders cannot be stunned or subdued by magical or physical means, and seem mentally unaffected by disasters or great violence occurring around them, chittering and waddling unconcernedly in the midst of a battlefield, or trotting in the heart of an attacking dragon’s breath weapon!



Immunity to stunning?  I think the bit about the battlefield is handled by the SR and immunity to fire.


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## Echohawk (Jun 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sigh.  I guess it's time to get back on the horse, or try to anyway.  Thinking about Shade a lot today.



Me too 


> I wonder if we got the psionic blast mixed up.  It seems like it should only work during the death throes, and then it is pretty far from the 3.X mind flayer psionic blast.  Did mind flayers' blasts previously cause confusion and feebleminding?



Not as far as I can tell from their entries in the original _Monster Manual_ or the 2e _Monstrous Manual_.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sigh.  I guess it's time to get back on the horse, or try to anyway.  Thinking about Shade a lot today.




Yes, I've been feeling down about it every now and again too. Better not to get morbid about it, I think.



freyar said:


> Looking at the original monster, I see a bunch of stuff I think we've missed:




Yes, there's a lot of other bits and bobs to do. Some of them are only mentioned in one entry, so I think we should consider only applying them to the "Wingless Wonder" version of the Alkeda.



freyar said:


> Some sort of immunity to stickiness?  Or a racial bonus to Escape Artist or similar?




I'd prefer the former option, e.g.:

*Immunity To Adhesion (Ex):* No known adhesive will stick to a wingless wonder's skin. This makes wingless wonders immune to effects such as tanglefoot bags, adhesive webs (both from monstrous spiders and the _web_ spell) and even _sovereign glue_. This immunity offers no protection against other sorts of grappling or entangling attack.



freyar said:


> Immunity to fire for sure.  Also looks like fast healing 1 with weird flavor (which I'd be fine with ignoring).




The immunity to fire's fine.

That first bit suggests its Fast Healing 1 might not work against _wounding_ weapons or attacks that cause Blood Drain.



freyar said:


> Permanent mind blank or something like the closed mind feat?  I think I like mind blank better.




Using _mind blank_ seems a much better fit than Closed Mind.



freyar said:


> I wonder if we got the psionic blast mixed up.  It seems like it should only work during the death throes, and then it is pretty far from the 3.X mind flayer psionic blast.  Did mind flayers' blasts previously cause confusion and feebleminding?




Yes, the mental blast only works when it's dying.

Mind flayers stunned their opponents with their special mind blast in 1st edition AD&D, same as later editions. A 1st edition psionic character couldconfuse an opponent with a Psionic Blast and cause idiocy with an Ego Whip. However, standard mind flayers don't have those attacks in that edition - their only psionic attacks are Mind Thrust and their special Mind Blast.



freyar said:


> Immunity to stunning?  I think the bit about the battlefield is handled by the SR and immunity to fire.




Immunity to stunning, fear and non-lethal damage, perhaps?

Maybe increase that to stunning, mind-affecting effects and non-lethal damage?


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Yes, there's a lot of other bits and bobs to do. Some of them are only mentioned in one entry, so I think we should consider only applying them to the "Wingless Wonder" version of the Alkeda.



Agreed, we'll have to check what goes in the Walking Egg separately.



> I'd prefer the former option, e.g.:
> 
> *Immunity To Adhesion (Ex):* No known adhesive will stick to a wingless wonder's skin. This makes wingless wonders immune to effects such as tanglefoot bags, adhesive webs (both from monstrous spiders and the _web_ spell) and even _sovereign glue_. This immunity offers no protection against other sorts of grappling or entangling attack.



I thought you might like the unique ability.   This looks good, though.




> The immunity to fire's fine.
> 
> That first bit suggests its Fast Healing 1 might not work against _wounding_ weapons or attacks that cause Blood Drain.



We could do that with the fast healing, but I hate that sort of bookkeeping.  If you really want to keep something related to the original flavor, why don't we say that the fast healing turns off when the Wingless Wonder is within 2 hp of its maximum?  That's a bit closer to the "when does fast healing function" mechanic seen in other critters.



> Using _mind blank_ seems a much better fit than Closed Mind.



Mind Blank (Su): A wingless wonder is continuously under the effects of a mind blank spell (caster level ??).  This effect can be dispelled, but the wingless wonder can create it again as a free action on its next turn.



> Yes, the mental blast only works when it's dying.
> 
> Mind flayers stunned their opponents with their special mind blast in 1st edition AD&D, same as later editions. A 1st edition psionic character couldconfuse an opponent with a Psionic Blast and cause idiocy with an Ego Whip. However, standard mind flayers don't have those attacks in that edition - their only psionic attacks are Mind Thrust and their special Mind Blast.



In that case, we should probably rename the ability to "Psionic Death Throes" or something similar and note that it works as death throes.  The remaining question, then, is if we want to switch it over to confusion, etc, or not.  I don't really want to involve 2 saves, but I could see that victims are confused and take damage with a save negating the confusion and halving the damage.



> Immunity to stunning, fear and non-lethal damage, perhaps?
> 
> Maybe increase that to stunning, mind-affecting effects and non-lethal damage?




Let's drop either the immunity to stunning or non-lethal damage, but then I'll go with your boost to mind-affecting.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed, we'll have to check what goes in the Walking Egg separately.




Agreed. I suppose I should post Working Drafts for them both.



freyar said:


> I thought you might like the unique ability.   This looks good, though.




I _*am*_ a unique exception-based ability. 



freyar said:


> We could do that with the fast healing, but I hate that sort of bookkeeping.  If you really want to keep something related to the original flavor, why don't we say that the fast healing turns off when the Wingless Wonder is within 2 hp of its maximum?  That's a bit closer to the "when does fast healing function" mechanic seen in other critters.




Frankly, I'd rather just give it standard Fast Healing and mention in the background text that they're very visible "bleeders".



freyar said:


> Mind Blank (Su): A wingless wonder is continuously under the effects of a mind blank spell (caster level ??).  This effect can be dispelled, but the wingless wonder can create it again as a free action on its next turn.




I'd rather it be non-dispellable. There's no mention of it being penetrable in the original text. I would add some flavour about the telepath picking up random inchoate thoughts, though.



freyar said:


> In that case, we should probably rename the ability to "Psionic Death Throes" or something similar and note that it works as death throes.  The remaining question, then, is if we want to switch it over to confusion, etc, or not.  I don't really want to involve 2 saves, but I could see that victims are confused and take damage with a save negating the confusion and halving the damage.




In 1E AD&D a Psionic Blast had different effects depending on the relative mental strength of the two combatants - we could make it a single Will save and have a weaker opponent _feebleminded_ if they fail, while a stronger opponent is merely _confused_.



freyar said:


> Let's drop either the immunity to stunning or non-lethal damage, but then I'll go with your boost to mind-affecting.




Come to think of it, doesn't its _mind blank_ special quality cover all of the mind-affecting protection it needs?

I'm not keen of the non-lethal immunity, I just threw that out to see if it stuck.

Shall we just give it immunity to stunning?


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

*Wingless Wonder Working Draft*

*Alkada, Wingless Wonder
*Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 10 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+1 size, +3 natural, -2 Dex), touch 9, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Tentacle +2 melee (1)
Full Attack: 10 tentacles +2 melee (1) and bite -4 melee (2d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. w/tentacles)
Special Attacks: Death throes, improved grab, poison, wonderblast
Special Qualities: Antimagic aura, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 1, immunity to adhesion, immunity to fire, immunity to stunning, _mind blank_, shortsighted, spell resistance 23
Saves: Fort +1, Ref -2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 7, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +10, Listen +3, Swim +8
Feats: Weapon Focus (tentacles)
Environment: Temperate or warm land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: no coins, double goods (gems only), no items
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 3-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —

_ This creature looks like an upright, blue-green egg with a purple  base. A writhing nest of tentacles emerge from the pointed top of the  "egg", just above a pair of large, sad-looking eyes. Set in the center  of its tentacles is an oversized beak-like mouth. The creature walks on  two rubbery legs and had a pair of puny arms near its mid-body. Its arms  flap constantly, as if the bizarre lifeform were trying to fly._

A wingless wonder is a type of creature called the alkada, a group that   includes the walking egg. Wingless wonders have 10 tentacles, walking eggs have 8 or 12. A wonder's tentacles can stretch to about 10 feet in length, or retract into their body until they're less than a foot  long.

Alkada often make a high-pitched   chittering, and redden when angry or excited. They are short-sighted creatures,   curious and fearlessly stupid. An alkada is attracted by red or purple,   the brighter the more alluring, and are fascinated by sparkly   translucent objects, which they swallow and carry in their stomach.   These trophies may include valuable gems or crystals among the polished   pieces of glass and pretty pebbles, but the alkada must be cut open to   extract its shiny treasure.

Most of an alkada's diet is vegetation, supplemented by whatever small  animals come within reach of their tentacles. An alkada's favorite food  is ripe fruit, but they will eat almost any living (or once living)  thing they can fit into their mouths.  They can live off carrion,  kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on  fresh plants. Alkada never attack each other, but will feed off a dead  alkada once it is rotting.

Alkada are hermaphrodites. Whenever a solitary alkada meets another of   its species, they entwine tentacles and chitter passionately for several   minutes, exchanging fluids that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside their   partner. They usually then separate to continue their solitary lives,   but may wander together as a mated pair. Alkada can carry up to a dozen   eggs, but only fertilize one each time they meet another alkada.   Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light   equal to a candle. Six to seven months after fertilization the alkada   excretes a fully-developed egg, rubbery and as large as a human head,   which splits open to reveal a juvenile alkada. A newly hatched alkada   can live independently; it often accompanies its parent for a while but   is expected to fend for itself.  

A wingless wonder stands about 4 feet tall, including a nest of tentacles  averaging 18 inches high. They weigh about 40 pounds. 

Alkada do not speak, their chittering carries no more meaning than an animal's cries.

*COMBAT*
An alkada wanders about  aimlessly,  feeling everything around itself with  its tentacles. If it  touches  something that feels tasty it may decide  to attack, chittering   excitedly as it tries to grab the prospective meal  and bite it.

Alkada are erratic creatures who seem oblivious to their surroundings.   They may blunder into the midst of a battle or ignore a threatening   enemy, but will defend themselves once attacked. Wingless wonders often   use their wonder blast special attack if they get in a serious fight,  but also unleash wonder blasts seemingly at random.

An opponent can attack a wingless wonder's tentacles with a sunder  attempt as if they were weapons. A wingless wonder's tentacles have 2  hit points each. If a wingless wonder is currently grappling a target  with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb  to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder  attempt.  A wingless wonder takes no damage from having a tentacle  severed or destroyed. A severed tentacle dies and can no longer be used  to attack, but the wingless wonder takes no other penalties.  Severed  tentacles regrow in 1d12+12 hours.

*Death Throes (Su):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with   a powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards    whichever opponent killed it. All creatures within the cone take 1d6 Int  damage and are confused for 1d4 rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC  14 Will save they take half damage and are not confused. This is a     mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +2  racial bonus.

*Immunity To Adhesion (Ex):* No known adhesive will stick to a  wingless wonder's skin. This makes wingless wonders immune to effects  such as tanglefoot bags, adhesive webs (both from monstrous spiders and  the _web_ spell) and even _sovereign glue_. This immunity offers no protection against other sorts of grappling or entangling attack.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a wingless wonder must hit an  opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to  start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of  opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and  automatically deals bite damage. *A wingless wonder has a +4 racial  bonus on grapple checks.

*Mind Blank (Su):* A wingless wonder is continuously under the effects of a  _mind blank_ spell (caster level 13th).  This effect can be dispelled, but  the wingless wonder can create it again as a free action on its next  turn.

*Poison (Ex):* Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:

_ Alkada flesh:_ ingested, Fortitude DC 12, initial damage nauseated for 1d4  rounds then sickened for 1d6 minutes, secondary damage 1d8 Con plus  2d10 minutes sickened. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Shortsighted (Ex):* Alkada have difficulty seeing anything  further than 10 ft. away and are virtually blind at long distances.  Instead of the normal -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance, an alkada has a  -4 penalty on Spot checks for the first 10 feet of distance, increased by -2 per additional 10 feet.

*Wonderblast (Su):* Once per day, a wingless wonder can create a wild magic  effect as a standard action. This functions exactly like a _rod of  wonder_, except effects originate from the wingless wonder and all saving  throws have a DC of 14. The save DCs are Charisma-based and include a +2 racial bonus.

*Skills:* An alkada has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks.

A wingless wonder has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Pregnant Alkada*
Alkada that are carrying fertilized eggs gain the following special quality.

* Maternal Glow (Su):* Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle. When a pregnant wingless wonder uses its wonderblast, the light from its maternal glow flickers for 1 round.

*In Faerûn*
Certain drow wizards in the underdark of Faerûn have developed a secret _wonderform_  spell which enables them to transform into wingless wonders while  retaining their spellcasting abilities. They often use this spell to  hide from the drow Matriarchs and the clerics of Lolth.

In recent years, it has been fashionable for powerful wizards to use _polymorph any object_   to transform their rivals into wingless wonders. Such transformed   wonders cannot speak or perform precise gestures so are unable to cast   spells with verbal or somatic components, so most are stuck in alkada   form until they can find someone to break the enchantment upon them.

*Wonderform*_
*Transmutation*_
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 8
*Components:* V, S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* You
*Duration:* Permanent (D)

This spell functions like _shapechange_, except it enables you to    assume the form of a wingless wonder. You gain all extraordinary and    supernatural abilities of a wingless wonder, including its continuous _mind blank_ and spell resistance 23, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

While in _wonderform_, alignment detection abilities register you as chaotic neutral. Other alignment-dependent effects, such as a _chaos hammer_ spell or an _axiomatic_ weapon bestowing a negative level on chaotic creatures, will affect you according to your actual alignment.

The _wonderform_  spell ends instantly if you assume the form of   another creature but is  otherwise permanent until the spell is broken,   you even remain in _wonderform_  should you be killed. Any parts  of  your body that are cut from you  (i.e. the wingless wonder's  tentacles)  do not revert to their original  forms.

You can cast spells and use spell-like abilities while in _wonderform_. Material components that melded into your body when you assumed _wonderform_    can be used to cast spells but are otherwise nonfunctional. Wingless    wonders are incapable of meaningful speech, any verbal spell  components   you utter sound like high-pitched chittering but still  function   normally. You use your tentacles to perform any somatic  components a   spell might have.

Other creatures who observe you spellcasting have a -20 penalty on Spellcraft check to identify a spell you cast, due to the _wonderform's_ perturbation of the spell's components.

The alien structure of a wingless wonder's brain puts great strain on your mind. At the end of every 24 hours you spend in _wonderform_    you must succeed at a Will save (DC 15 +1 per day after the first) or    take 1d4 Intelligence damage. This damage cannot reduce your    Intelligence to below Int 6 (the average score of a wingless wonder),    but if your Intelligence is reduced to 6 or lower you lost the ability    to dismiss the _wonderform_ spell and will remain a wingless wonder permanently unless another effect breaks the _wonderform_ spell.

There are tales of spellcasters wandering for decades in the shape of a    wingless wonder before encountering a helpful creature able to use _break enchantment_ or _polymorph_ to return them to normal.

_Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine issue 40 (1980)_


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

*Walking Egg Working Draft*

*Alkada, Walking Egg
*Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+1 size, +3 natural, -2 Dex), touch 9, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Tentacle +2 melee (1)
Full Attack: 8 tentacles +2 melee (1) and bite -4 melee (3d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. w/tentacles)
Special Attacks: Death throes, improved grab, poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to adhesion, immunity to fire, immunity to stunning, shortsighted, spell resistance 14
Saves: Fort +1, Ref -2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 7, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +10, Listen +3
Feats: Weapon Focus (tentacles)
Environment: Temperate or warm land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: no coins, double goods (gems only), no items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

_This creature looks like an upright, blue-green egg with a purple  base. A writhing nest of tentacles emerge from the pointed top of the  "egg", just above a pair of large, sad-looking eyes. Set in the center  of its tentacles is an oversized beak-like mouth. The creature walks on  two rubbery legs and had a pair of puny arms near its mid-body. Its arms  flap constantly, as if the bizarre lifeform were trying to fly._

A walking egg is a type of creature called the alkada, a group that  includes the wingless wonder. Walking eggs have 8 or 12, wingless wonders have 10 tentacles. A  walking eggs's tentacles can stretch to 10 feet or more in length, or retract  into their body until they're less than a foot  long.

Alkada often make a high-pitched  chittering, and redden when angry or excited. They are short-sighted,  curious and fearlessly stupid. An alkada is attracted by red or purple,  the brighter the more alluring, and are fascinated by sparkly  translucent objects, which they swallow and carry in their stomach.  These trophies may include valuable gems or crystals among the polished  pieces of glass and pretty pebbles, but the alkada must be cut open to  extract its shiny treasure.

Most of an alkada's diet is vegetation, supplemented by whatever small  animals come within reach of their tentacles. An alkada's favorite food  is ripe fruit, but they will eat almost any living (or once living)  thing they can fit into their mouths.  They can live off carrion,  kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on  fresh plants. Alkada never attack each other, but will feed off a dead  alkada once it is rotting.

Alkada are hermaphrodites. Whenever a solitary alkada meets another of  its species, they entwine tentacles and chitter passionately for several  minutes, exchanging fluids that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside their  partner. They usually then separate to continue their solitary lives,  but may wander together as a mated pair. Alkada can carry up to a dozen  eggs, but only fertilize one each time they meet another alkada.  Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light  equal to a candle. Six to seven months after fertilization the alkada  excretes a fully-developed egg, rubbery and as large as a human head,  which splits open to reveal a juvenile alkada. A newly hatched alkada  can live independently; it often accompanies its parent for a while but  is expected to fend for itself.  

A walking egg stands about 4 feet tall, including a nest of tentacles averaging 18 inches high. They weigh about 40 pounds. 

Alkada do not speak, their chittering carries no more meaning than an animal's cries.

*COMBAT*
 An alkada wanders about  aimlessly,  feeling everything around itself with  its tentacles. If it  touches  something that feels tasty it may decide  to attack, chittering   excitedly as it tries to grab the prospective meal  and bite it.

Alkada are erratic creatures who seem oblivious to their surroundings.   They may blunder into the midst of a battle or ignore a threatening   enemy, but will defend themselves once attacked.

An opponent can attack an walking egg's tentacles with a sunder   attempt as if they were weapons. A walking egg's tentacles have 2   hit points each. If a walking egg is currently grappling a target   with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb   to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder   attempt.  A walking egg takes no damage from having a tentacle   severed or destroyed. A severed tentacle dies and can no longer be used   to attack, but the walking egg takes no other penalties.  Severed   tentacles regrow in 1d4+4 days.

*Death Throes (Su):* If a walking egg is killed, its dying mind   lashes out with invisible beams of telekinetic force as a free action.  All creatures within  120 ft. of the walking egg that have hurt the  walking egg within the  last hour are automatically hit by a beam for  4d4 points of force  damage. These unerring beams do not need line of  sight to hit their  target, but do require line of effect.

*Immunity To Adhesion (Ex):* No known adhesive will stick to a walking egg's skin. This makes walking eggs immune to effects   such as tanglefoot bags, adhesive webs (both from monstrous spiders and   the _web_ spell) and even _sovereign glue_. This immunity offers no protection against other sorts of grappling or entangling attack.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a walking egg must  hit an  opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt  to  start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of   opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and   automatically deals bite damage. *A walking egg has a +4 racial   bonus on grapple checks.

*Poison (Ex):* Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:

_ Alkada flesh:_ ingested, Fortitude DC 12, initial damage nauseated for 1d4  rounds then sickened for 1d6 minutes, secondary damage 1d8 Con plus  2d10 minutes sickened. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Shortsighted (Ex):* Alkada have difficulty seeing anything  further than 10 ft. away and are virtually blind at long distances.  Instead of the normal -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance, an alkada has a  -4 penalty on Spot checks for the first 10 feet of distance, increased by -2 per additional 10 feet.

*Skills:* An alkada has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks.

*Pregnant Alkada*
Alkada that are carrying fertilized eggs gain the following special quality.

* Maternal Glow (Su):* Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle.

*Walking Egg Advancement*
Medium-sized walking eggs have 12 tentacles, allowing them to make 12  tentacle attacks with a full attack. A Medium-sized walking egg's bite  attack does 3d6 damage; each of its tentacles has a 15 ft. reach and  does 1 hit point of damage.

*In Faerûn*
In recent years, it has been fashionable for powerful wizards to use _polymorph any object_  to transform their rivals into alkada. Such transformed walking eggs cannot speak or perform precise gestures so are unable to cast  spells with verbal or somatic components, so most are stuck in alkada  form until they can find someone to break the enchantment upon them.

In the underdark of Faerûn, certain drow wizards have developed a secret _wonderform_   spell that enables them to transform into wingless wonders and retain their spellcasting abilities. They often use this spell to   hide their activities from the drow Matriarchs and the clerics of Lolth. See the *wingless wonder* for details.

_Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine issue 40 (1980)_


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## Echohawk (Jun 29, 2012)

Just checking -- which alkada is which?

Walking Egg: _Menzoberranzan_ ("True") and _Secrets of the Magister_ versions?
Wingless Wonder: Dragon 40 version?

How did you decide to deal with the "Transformed" wonder from _Menzoberranzan_ and the  _Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume Four_, given that it isn't actually an alkada at all, but merely a drow polymorph into one?


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Just checking -- which alkada is which?
> 
> Walking Egg: _Menzoberranzan_ ("True") and _Secrets of the Magister_ versions?
> Wingless Wonder: Dragon 40 version?
> ...




The Walking Egg is the _Secrets of the Magister_ version.

The Wingless Wonder the _Menzoberranzan_, _Wizard's Spell Compendium 4_ and _Dragon Issue 40_ version.

As for the Transformed Wonder, we had decided we were just going to write up a _wonderform_ spell, or possibly spells, with the possibility of doing a sample wonderform wizard:



Cleon said:


> A "Transformed Wonder" is someone who's been  polymorphed into a "Wingless Wonder" - I'm not sure we need bother with  that, since we can use standard Alternate Form rules, but I suppose we  could do it as a Template or stat up a sample Transformed Wonder if we _really_ wanted too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

Checking the entry, the Secrets of the Magister version makes no mention of immunity to webs or psionic attacks, so I'll cut that from the *"Walking Egg" Working Draft*.

Both types say they cannot be subdued and have no fear, so maybe we should give them immunity to nonlethal damage?

Also, all Alkadas are poisonous to eat - we should give them a Poison SA.

Finally, what are we doing about the "12 tentacle" alkada?

Just have them get 12 tentacles if they advance to Medium size? That doesn't gel with the original, which specifies that they're a separate species.


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## Echohawk (Jun 29, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The Walking Egg is the _Secrets of the Magister_ version. The Wingless Wonder the _Menzoberranzan_, _Wizard's Spell Compendium 4_ and _Dragon Issue 40_ version.



Thanks, I want to make sure I get them correct in my index.


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Thanks, I want to make sure I get them correct in my index.




Yup, the Secrets of the Magister version is noticeably different from the others, what with it having a "forceblast" death throes rather than a "mindblast".

Curiously, while most versions of the "Wingless Wonders" have 10 tentacles, both the oldest _Dragon Issue 40_ and the most recent _Secrets of the Magister _have 8 tentacles.

I wonder what brought that about?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2012)

Regular fast healing, immunity to stunning work.  We can remove the dispelling bit from mind blank; the "random thoughts" bit can go above in the flavor text, I guess.

I'll have to get back to the death throes later, but I'm not sure I like the feeblemind idea.

Where did the 12 tentacles come from?  I didn't see those in the original monster stats just now.  But if that's the only difference, I'd rather leave different species as flavor and take care of it mechanically with a note on advancement (ie, they get 2 extra tentacles at such and such a HD level).


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## Cleon (Jun 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Regular fast healing, immunity to stunning work.  We can remove the dispelling bit from mind blank; the "random thoughts" bit can go above in the flavor text, I guess.
> 
> I'll have to get back to the death throes later, but I'm not sure I like the feeblemind idea.




Maybe have it do damage to a random mental ability, plus Confusion?



freyar said:


> Where did the 12 tentacles come from?  I didn't see those in the original monster stats just now.  But if that's the only difference, I'd rather leave different species as flavor and take care of it mechanically with a note on advancement (ie, they get 2 extra tentacles at such and such a HD level).




Here's the entirety of the 12 tentacled species:

* * *​
_Secrets of the Magister_ — "Sages believe that a slightly larger, slower, twelve-tentacled subspecies of alkada has now died out."

_Menzoberranzan _— "(old tales and records suggest that there was once a related species that had twelve tentacles—and additional powers not possessed by wonders today)"

_Dragon's Bestiary (Issue 40) _— "A rare (20% of all Wonders) type is omnivorous and has 12 tentacles."

* * *​
The _Menzoberranzan _Wingless Wonders "eat mainly fruits and vegetables" and the _Dragon's Bestiary _ones which don't have 12 tentacles "eat only fruits and vegetables".

The _Secrets of the Magister_ "Walking Egg" version will eat offal, creature waste and refuse, so it looks like that's the omnivorous species.

So, I propose making the "Walking Egg" the omnivorous version and having it become 12 tentacled if it Advances to Medium-sized.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2012)

How about Confusion plus Int damage, save negates Confusion and halves the damage?

I'll agree with your 12-tentacled proposal.  Put it into the Walking Egg advancement.


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Confusion plus Int damage, save negates Confusion and halves the damage?




That's pretty much what I was thinking, except the damage goes to a randomly selected mental ability.



freyar said:


> I'll agree with your 12-tentacled proposal.  Put it into the Walking Egg advancement.




That'll have to wait for tomorrow.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2012)

I'd rather not introduce quite so much randomness; this has plenty already!   But let the amount be random: 1d4 Int ok for you?


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about Confusion plus Int damage, save negates Confusion and halves the damage?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Too much randomness? There's barely enough! We should have a random table for the psionic death throes' effects! 

*d12 Roll Result*
1 Target takes 3 Int damage
2 Target takes 4 Wis damage
3 Target takes 1 Wis damage
4 Target takes 1 Int damage
5 Target performs "I'm a little teapot" for 1d12+1d7 rounds (treat as _irresistible dance)_
6 Target takes 4 Int damage
7 Target takes 2 Wis damage
8 Target takes 3 Wis damage
9 Target takes 2 Wis damage unless they're a half-elf, in which case they take 7 Cha damage.
10 Target takes 2 Int damage
11 Target's brains turn to rhubarb custard
12 Target takes 1 Wis damage

 *Ovoido The God of the Walking Eggs thinks half-elfs is _*ugly*_!



freyar said:


> I'll agree with your 12-tentacled proposal.  Put it into the Walking Egg advancement.




Updating the *"Walking Egg" Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

We need a time for it to regrow severed tentacles. I'm thinking the Fast Healing would mean Wingless Wonder grow tentacles back pretty quickly.

Giant Cephalopods (e.g. the SRD Kraken)  regrow them after 1d10+10 days, we should aim for less than that.

1d12+12 hours? 1d4+4 days?

Hmm, the Egg version doesn't have Fast Healing, so 1d4+4 days for the Walking Egg and 1d12+12 hours for the Fast-Healing Wingless Wonder?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2012)

I can go for those regrowth times.  

Here's what I say to your d12 table:
I'm a little teapot, short and stout!  Here is my handle, here is my other handle.  OOOPS!  I'm a sugar bowl!
OK, so can we keep to 1d4 Int?


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can go for those regrowth times.




 Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Here's what I say to your d12 table:
> I'm a little teapot, short and stout!  Here is my handle, here is my other handle.  OOOPS!  I'm a sugar bowl!




Serves you right for rolling a 5! 



freyar said:


> OK, so can we keep to 1d4 Int?




Oh very well, you *know* I'm going to Cleon Special a "random mental stat" version anyway.

So, we're talking something like:*Death Throes No. 1 (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with a powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards whichever opponent killed it. All creatures within the cone take 1d4 Int  damage and are confused for *Y* *[1d4?]* rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC *Z* *[14?]*  Will save they take half damage and are not confused. This is a  mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +*Z-12* *[+2?]* racial bonus.​Alternatively, we could use a circular area of effect, like so:*Death Throes No. 2 (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with a powerful psionic blast. All creatures within *X* *[60 ft.?]* feet of the wonder take 1d4 Int damage and are confused for *Y* *[1d4?]* rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC *Z* *[14?]*  Will save they take half damage and are not confused. This is a  mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +*Z-12* *[+2?]* racial bonus.​Hmm, the original conical blast did 2d12 hit points of physical damage from "mind burn" plus the confusion/feeblemindedness. Do we want it doing hit points of damage too?*Death Throes No. 3  (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with a  powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards  whichever opponent killed it. All creatures within the cone take *X* *[2d12?]*  points of force damage, 1d4 Int   damage and are confused for *Y* *[1d4?]* rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC *Z* *[14?]*  Will save they only take the *X* force damage. This is a  mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +*Z-12* *[+2?]* racial bonus.​I'm liking *No. 3*, although I'd consider reducing the force damage.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2012)

The force damage was _only_ taken by victims that saved successfully in the original.  It's just too complicated in the original version, I think.  Also, having a force blast vs wonder blast is a point of differentiation between the walking egg and wingless wonder, so I don't really want to dilute that by putting force damage in the wingless wonder death throes.  And the death throes are already quite potent for a 2HD critter.

I probably prefer option 2, but the cone is a little closer to the complicated original.

Did I sway you, or should we get out the dice?


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## Cleon (Jul 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> The force damage was _only_ taken by victims that saved successfully in the original.  It's just too complicated in the original version, I think.  Also, having a force blast vs wonder blast is a point of differentiation between the walking egg and wingless wonder, so I don't really want to dilute that by putting force damage in the wingless wonder death throes.  And the death throes are already quite potent for a 2HD critter.




Yes I know, but "only taking damage on a failed save" didn't seem a great idea. Could you qualify whether it's the fact that it's force damage or the fact that No 1. does physical damage what bothers you.

How about reducing the amount of damage and making it untyped?



freyar said:


> I probably prefer option 2, but the cone is a little closer to the complicated original.




So, are you fancying a No. 2 in a cone, then?

*Death Throes No. 4 (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with a powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards  whichever opponent killed it.. All creatures within the cone take *X* *[1d4?]* Int damage and are confused for *Y* *[1d4?]* rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC *Z* *[14?]*   Will save they take half damage and are not confused. This is a   mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +*Z-12* *[+2?]* racial bonus.



freyar said:


> Did I sway you, or should we get out the dice?




Like I need an excuse to get out the dice!


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't really like adding any hp damage, as this seems potent enough.  

Isn't option number 4 the same as option number 1?  In any case, is option 1 an acceptable compromise?  A cone like the original but without excessive hp damage?


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't really like adding any hp damage, as this seems potent enough.
> 
> Isn't option number 4 the same as option number 1?  In any case, is option 1 an acceptable compromise?  A cone like the original but without excessive hp damage?




Yes they are the same. Well, except for a stray fullstop somehow wandered into it and the X, Y and Z having a different arrangement.

No 1 was a cone, which was turned into a radius in No 2 and then back into a cone.

Guess that makes this a circular argument. 

Hmm, I am still tempted to have it do some hit points damage. Maybe go back to the original "damage only on a failed save"?

I also wouldn't mind increasing the mental damage...

*Death Throes No. 5 (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with  a powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards   whichever opponent killed it. All creatures within the cone take *X* *[1d8?]* Int damage and are confused for *Y* *[1d4?]* rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC *Z* *[14?]*    Will save they instead take *Z* *[1d12 of some kind of energy?]* damage and are not confused. This is a    mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +*Z-12* *[+2?]* racial bonus.

Boy, who would have thought these things would take so long?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

I just feel that this is getting too overpowered, too complicated, and too exception-based.  Tell you what, if we can go with option 1 (cone, no hp damage), I'll go with bumping the Int damage to 1d6.  I think doing any more than that is just too much for a 2HD critter.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I just feel that this is getting too overpowered, too complicated, and too exception-based.  Tell you what, if we can go with option 1 (cone, no hp damage), I'll go with bumping the Int damage to 1d6.  I think doing any more than that is just too much for a 2HD critter.




Thus?

*Death Throes No. 6 (Ps):* A dying wingless wonder lashes out with  a powerful psionic blast, covering a 60 ft. cone directed towards   whichever opponent killed it. All creatures within the cone take 1d6 Int damage and are confused for 1d4 rounds. If a creature succeeds at a DC 14 Will save they take half damage and are not confused. This is a    mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Oh very well, let's use that.

I prefer No 5's approach (with random mental stat and random energy damage type), but don't want to be still be arguing about this thing next month!


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Whew, thanks! 

The walking egg death throes should be easier.  I'm not sure I can find the original monster stats in this thread, but how about a few d6 of force in a 30 ft burst or something?


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Whew, thanks!




I can be very obliging once you get to know me.

Updating *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.

What about my proposal to rename the "Wild Magic" special attack a "Wonderblast"?



freyar said:


> The walking egg death throes should be easier.  I'm not sure I can find the original monster stats in this thread, but how about a few d6 of force in a 30 ft burst or something?




The original Wingless Wonder stats are *here*.

The "force blast" death throes has a 120 ft. range in the original.

The version of death throes we're talking about is the _Secrets of the Magister_ (2000) version:



			
				Secrets of the Magister said:
			
		

> When slain, a wonder lashes out at its slayer(s) with a psionic blast so awesome in its power that the disintegrating mind twists the mental effect into invisible beams of physically damaging raw force. One beam stabs unerringly at each creature within 120 feet of the dying wonder who has recently attacked the wonder, and deals the target(s) 8d4 hit points of damage (no saving throw). This “dying scream” is the only time an alkada exhibits psionic or magical powers.




The *Walking Egg Working Draft* currently only has "*nasty force blasts*" for its Death Throes.

I'd keep the 120 foot range but drastically reduce the auto-damage. Maybe 1d4 per Hit Dice of the Egg? That seems a bit _too_ low, so I'm tempted to add a minimum - 1d4 per HD (minimum 4d4 damage)?


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2012)

Renaming to "Wonderblast" is fine by me.

120 ft range is good, as is 4d4 damage.  I don't like saying 1d4/HD (minimum 4d4) --- too "wordy" and complex.  And according to the SRD, DMs are supposed to adjust special attack damage according to their own judgement when advancing critters.  I think it's better only to spell it out if the original creature insists on particularly special advancement.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Renaming to "Wonderblast" is fine by me.




Updating *Wingless Wonder Working Draft* Wonderblast.



freyar said:


> 120 ft range is good, as is 4d4 damage.  I don't like saying 1d4/HD (minimum 4d4) --- too "wordy" and complex.  And according to the SRD, DMs are supposed to adjust special attack damage according to their own judgement when advancing critters.  I think it's better only to spell it out if the original creature insists on particularly special advancement.




As you like, I was just seeing what ideas would stick.

So, we're talking something like:

*Death Throes (Ps):* If a walking egg is killed, its dying mind lashes out with invisible beams of psionic energy. All creatures within 120 ft. of the walking egg that have hurt the walking egg within the last hour are automatically hit by a beam for 4d4 points of force damage. These unerring beams do not need line of sight to hit their target, but do require line of effect.

Hmm, I suppose that'll do. It doesn't need a manifestation level, does it?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2012)

I couldn't find a unique Ps ability in the SRD to compare.  I'd think it would.   I suppose the same applies to the Wingless Wonder.  Well, we could just make them Su abilities.  Or assign them some manifester level.  Like 2nd.  What do you think?

The ability itself looks good.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> I couldn't find a unique Ps ability in the SRD to compare.  I'd think it would.   I suppose the same applies to the Wingless Wonder.  Well, we could just make them Su abilities.  Or assign them some manifester level.  Like 2nd.  What do you think?




I'd think it should be higher than that. Auto-hitting every enemy within 120 ft. for 4d4 damage is too potent for a normal 2nd level character!

Hmm, I'd eyeball it as roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell, so I suggest CL 8th.



freyar said:


> The ability itself looks good.




Flattery will get you nowhere.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2012)

Hmm, equivalent to a 4th level power, ML 7th?


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, equivalent to a 4th level power, ML 7th?




Sure, I'm OK with either.

Oh, and I think we should say what action it requires, like an Astral Construct's psi-like abilities:

*Death Throes (Ps):* If a walking egg is killed, its dying mind  lashes out with invisible beams of psionic energy as a free action. All creatures within  120 ft. of the walking egg that have hurt the walking egg within the  last hour are automatically hit by a beam for 4d4 points of force  damage. These unerring beams do not need line of sight to hit their  target, but do require line of effect. This is equivalent to a 4th-level psionic power (manifester level 7th).

Alternatively, we could make it (Su), then we wouldn't have to worry about manifestation levels.

Come to think of it, if the Death Throes is a psi-like power it'll have to make a Concentration check to manifest it when it's taking damage - which is pretty much a given _*when it's *__*dying *__*violently*_. 

So, we should really change it to supernatural, and change the *Wingless Wonder's* Death Throes too (Su) as well:

*Death Throes (Su):* If a walking egg is killed, its dying mind  lashes out with invisible beams of telekinetic force as a free action. All creatures within  120 ft. of the walking egg that have hurt the walking egg within the  last hour are automatically hit by a beam for 4d4 points of force  damage. These unerring beams do not need line of sight to hit their  target, but do require line of effect.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Agreed to Su.  I'd thought of that, then thought that there was supposed to be some reason these are psionic. 

Anyway, do you mind cleaning up the red text in the working drafts?  It'd be good to have a clean look at what's left.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed to Su.  I'd thought of that, then thought that there was supposed to be some reason these are psionic.




I think the only reason was their "mind shield" and have a psionic blast, basically.

Since mind flayers, the very epitome of a D&D psionic monster, have (Su) psionic blasts and SLAs as default, there's little reason not to change it.



freyar said:


> Anyway, do you mind cleaning up the red text in the working drafts?  It'd be good to have a clean look at what's left.




Assuming by that that you're OK with the red bits we've discussed already...

  Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Are we finally ready for skills and feats?  I can't believe it.

The suggested skills in red are ok with me, although the obliviousness of the wingless wonder version makes me think we could go for something more like Balance or Tumble rather than Spot.  I'm not sure, though.  Or maybe just boost Climb and/or Swim.

For the feat, maybe something like Dodge since I can't think what else would help them.  Ability Focus (death throes) on the wingless wonder perhaps.


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## Cleon (Jul 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Are we finally ready for skills and feats?  I can't believe it.
> 
> The suggested skills in red are ok with me, although the obliviousness of the wingless wonder version makes me think we could go for something more like Balance or Tumble rather than Spot.  I'm not sure, though.  Or maybe just boost Climb and/or Swim.




Could give them some Listen, I suppose.



freyar said:


> For the feat, maybe something like Dodge since I can't think what else would help them.  Ability Focus (death throes) on the wingless wonder perhaps.




If you're looking for something combat-related, Weapon Focus (tentacle) would be an obvious pick.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2012)

Listen doesn't go so well with oblivious, either.  For the Wingless Wonder, let's give 3 ranks to Climb and 2 to Swim.  We can put the ranks in Spot for the Walking Egg.

I'm not exactly looking for something combat-related, but Weapon Focus seems as good as anything (for both of them).


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Listen doesn't go so well with oblivious, either.  For the Wingless Wonder, let's give 3 ranks to Climb and 2 to Swim.  We can put the ranks in Spot for the Walking Egg.




Hmm, come to think of it the original text says they're very short-sighted, so they shouldn't have Spot. I'd like a few ranks of Listen, though, since they apparently communicate by "chittering" to each other they can't be _that_ hard of hearing.

Hmm, some ranks in Climb and Swim wouldn't hurt.

Climb +9, Listen +3, Swim +9 for the Wingless Wonder, and Climb +10, Listen +3 for the Walking Egg?

Hmm, it wouldn't hurt to give them some kind of "Bad Eyesight" SQ that gives a penalty to Spot checks, possibly with increased range penalties. We did come up with something like that once, but I can't remember what creature we gave it to.



freyar said:


> I'm not exactly looking for something combat-related, but Weapon Focus seems as good as anything (for both of them).




Agreed. Shall I update the draft with Weapon Focus then?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2012)

Should the walking egg also be shortsighted?  I don't think we have the full stats for that posted.

Shortsighted (Ex): Wingless wonders take a -2 penalty to Spot checks per 10 ft of distance, as opposed to the usual -1 penalty.

Yes, let's go with Weapon Focus.


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> Should the walking egg also be shortsighted?  I don't think we have the full stats for that posted.




Yes, they should both have it.

We're basing the Egg on the _Secrets of the Magister_ version of the Alkada, which has "the large, sad-looking eyes of an alkada can only see about 6 feet, and the creatures do not tend to notice menacing approaches or anything short of an attack that hits home."

The Wonder version is based on the other versions of the creature which, according to its original _Dragon No. 40_ appearance "the creature’s eyes have a short (½”) range", while its _Menzoberranzan _ incarnation has "Wingless wonders are curious, shortsighted (10’ or so effective vision and infravision)".



freyar said:


> Shortsighted (Ex): Wingless wonders take a -2  penalty to Spot checks per 10 ft of distance, as opposed to the usual -1  penalty.




Hmm, the previous quotes indicate a larger penalty than that.

How about...

*Shortsighted (Ex):* Alkadas have difficulty seeing anything further than 10 ft. away and are virtually blind at long distances. Instead of the normal -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance, an alkada has a -6 *[?]* penalty on Spot checks for the first 10 feet of distance, increased by -2 per additional 10 feet.



freyar said:


> Yes, let's go with Weapon Focus.




I might as well add that, then.

  Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2012)

So, what about my proposed skills?



Cleon said:


> I'd like a few ranks of Listen, though, since they apparently communicate by "chittering" to each other they can't be _that_ hard of hearing.
> 
> Hmm, some ranks in Climb and Swim wouldn't hurt.
> 
> Climb +9, Listen +3, Swim +9 for the Wingless Wonder, and Climb +10, Listen +3 for the Walking Egg?




After mulling it over a bit, there's no mention of the Wonders being good _swimmers_, so I'm thinking we could just put those ranks in Climb & Listen: Climb +10, Listen +3, Swim +8 for the Wingless Wonder, and Climb +10, Listen +3 for the Walking Egg.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2012)

I don't think the Secrets of the Magister version of the original stats were ever posted.  Care do do that?

The new skill lines look ok.  But Shortsighted seems a bit too extreme as you've written it.  How about cutting the first penalty from -6 to -2 or -3?


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't think the Secrets of the Magister version of the original stats were ever posted.  Care do do that?




I think those stats are on this thread somewhere, but don't quote me on it!



freyar said:


> The new skill lines look ok.  But Shortsighted seems a bit too extreme as you've written it.  How about cutting the first penalty from -6 to -2 or -3?




If we cut it to -2 it's just double the standard penalty (-2 per 10 ft. step).

I'd be willing to go halfway and have a -4 "first penalty".


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2012)

I only found a summary of a few differences right after Shade posted the Menzo version.

On Shortsighted, I'm ok with only doubling the usual penalty.  But a compromise of -4 in the first 10 ft is ok.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> I only found a summary of a few differences right after Shade posted the Menzo version.




Oh right, shall I post the Magister version of the stats then?



freyar said:


> On Shortsighted, I'm ok with only doubling the usual penalty.  But a compromise of -4 in the first 10 ft is ok.




In that case I'll add the compromise version.

Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

We did decide on a caster level for the Wingless Wonder's _mind blank_ didn't we?

It doesn't have a CL in the working draft, but I remember us agreeing on it.

Can't remember what it was, though.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

I couldn't find any discussion of the CL for mind blank, actually.  However, the spell effects don't depend on CL except for range, so I'd be happy enough with CL=HD in this case.

The Secrets of the Magister stats would help me to compare the two different alkadas.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> I couldn't find any discussion of the CL for mind blank, actually.  However, the spell effects don't depend on CL except for range, so I'd be happy enough with CL=HD in this case.




Well _mind blank_ has a minimum CL of 15th (as a wizard spell) and ML 13th for its psionic equivalent (psychic warrior with _personal mind blank_), so how about making it CL 13th?



freyar said:


> The Secrets of the Magister stats would help me to compare the two different alkadas.




Oh very well...

*Wingless Wonder*
*Climate/Terrain: *Any nonarctic wilderness 
*Frequency: *Rare 
*Organization: *Solitary or pair 
*Activity Cycle: *Any 
*Diet: *Omnivore 
*Intelligence: *Low (5-7) 
*Treasure: *Q×2 
*Alignment: *Neutral 
*No. Appearing: *1-2 
*Armor Class: *8 
*Movement: *6 
*Hit Dice: *2+2 
*THAC0: *19 
*No. of Attacks: *9 
*Damage/Attack: *1 (×8), 4d4 
*Special Attacks: *“Dying scream” 
*Special Defenses: *Antimagic shell, immune to fire and heat damage 
*Magic Resistance: *44% 
*Size: *S (4’ tall) 
*Morale: *Fearless (20) 
*XP Value:* 650

Known to some sages as the alkada, and to many common folk as “the walking egg,” the wingless wonder must be one of the most comical, stupid, awkward, and odd-looking creatures of Faerûn. A “wonder” looks like a blue-green egg with a purplish bottom, a head of wormlike tentacles, two rather unsteady legs, and two puny arms that it flaps constantly, as if it were trying to fly (hence its common name).

Wonders are shortsighted and curious. They explore the world with an air of shy innocence, occasionally emitting a high-pitched chittering. They redden when angry or excited and are attracted to flashy objects or anything red or purple, the more brilliant the better. Gems, cut glass, and other sparkling or translucent but light-catching objects fascinate them, and wonders devour such things whole without harm, They do not digest these curious trophies, but carry them in their stomachs until death.

*Combat:* The large, sad-looking eyes of an alkada can only see about 6 feet, and the creatures do not tend to notice menacing approaches or anything short of an attack that hits home. They commonly react to attacks by chittering excitedly and reaching out with their tentacles at whatever hit them, in case it might be good to eat.

Wonders prefer to dine on fruit, but they have a tendency to put almost any living thing into their mouths and chew, spitting out what they do not like the taste of (a highly individualistic matter, from one wonder to another). The beaklike, extremely powerful snapping and grinding mouth of a wonder is atop its head, surrounded by a restless fringe of eight tentacles that are normally about 2 feet long, but can shoot out rapidly to full lengths of 12 feet.

Alkada legs and tentacles are soft, rubbery, and sticky; the legs end in hoof-shaped flexible pads that can cling to even slippery and near-vertical surfaces, and the tentacles can grasp and hold anything they touch that the wonder desires them to, including humans in armour (unless such humans employ _oil of slipperiness_), though the grasp of a tentacle can be broken by any hit on it.

Wonders use their tentacles to explore surroundings, help in moving around, handle items, and bring food to their mouths. Almost anything is considered food unless the wonder learns otherwise; its tentacles feel along all accessible sides of any encountered item in an attempt to identify it.

While alive, wonders radiate a continuous _antimagic shell_ that extends out several inches from their skin, and is visible as a faint purple-white glow (akin to _faerie fire_) when a wonder is pregnant. They are immune to all damage from natural and magical fires, but suffer 1 hit point per die of damage from explosions (such as the burst of a _fireball_).

Wonders cannot be subdued or made to flee, they seem oblivious to offered doom, and endlessly surprised by pain dealt to them, rather than swiftly identifying weapons that have done them harm.

When slain, a wonder lashes out at its slayer(s) with a psionic blast so awesome in its power that the disintegrating mind twists the mental effect into invisible beams of physically damaging raw force. One beam stabs unerringly at each creature within 120 feet of the dying wonder who has recently attacked the wonder, and deals the target(s) 8d4 hit points of damage (no saving throw). This “dying scream” is the only time an alkada exhibits psionic or magical powers.

The fuzz-covered skin of a wonder is delicate and heals slowly; most alkada live out their lives dripping blood from many small wounds. They are easily slain and have become rare in populated areas.

*Habitat/Society:* A wonder can function as either male or female. Whenever two adult wonders meet for the first time, they intertwine their tentacles and chitter excitedly in chorus, exchanging fluids through tentacle ducts that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside each other (all alkada produce these, and carry an internal cluster of up to a dozen at all times). Some six months later, both wonders will excrete a rubbery egg about the size of a human head (pregnant wonders can carry multiple eggs at once, if they should happen to encounter more than one of their own kind for the first time during a pregnancy). The excreted eggs fall to the ground and split open to reveal small and clumsy (but otherwise fully developed) wonders. These offspring often accompany their parent for a time, but are expected to fend for themselves.

Sane wonders (see hereafter) never willingly fight other wonders and dislike violence, noise, lots of rushing about, and death. They like to wander, though they develop “favourite spots,” and seem to retain a sense of where such places are, showing an astonishing ability to cover great distances to return to them.

Some people who possess large walled gardens have created “wonder pens,” into which offal and refuse are dumped; wonders seem content to devour creature wastes, kitchen scraps, dead bodies, and other recently dead things as long as they have access to living things (such as bushes, grass, and flowers) upon which they can dine. Wonders will eat other wonders, but only after death is certain (rotting has begun).

Wonders develop eggs within their bodies, excreting them when they are ready to hatch (gestation seems to take 6 or 7 months). An egg falls to the ground as its parent wonder wanders away, ignoring it, and splits open in 1d4 rounds, to reveal a small and even more 

*Ecology:* Wingless wonders have probably escaped extinction because their flesh tastes putrid and is poisonous to all mammals. Sages believe that a slightly larger, slower, twelve-tentacled subspecies of alkada has now died out. Wonder skin rots in 1d4+3 days after death, but before decaying can serve as fireproof coverings or cloaks against natural (but not magical) fire. The antimagic field of a wonder fades within moments of its death. Wonder eggs can often be salvaged from wonder corpses, and if kept warm and bathed in nutrients such as thick soup (which they can absorb at an astonishing rate) will usually grow by themselves and eventually split to emit a very curious and hungry miniature wonder into the world.

Almost a quarter of all alkada roaming Faerûn today are actually transformed humans or demihumans (most of whom were mages, though very few of them are Magisters of former Magisters). They are the result of a fad among wizards; the notorious Durshult the Doomweaver was forced into wonder form after losing a duel with Rarimmon Tlarn, the Archwizard of the Castle in the Clouds. For decades after that, mages delighted in transforming defeated foes into wingless wonders.

Lacking the means to work spells or communicate effectively with others, such unfortunates are trapped indefinitely (though young mages needing tutors, allies, or aid have been known to cast spells on any alkada they meet, in hopes of freeing a wizard who might feel beholden to them, and render them a service). Beings trapped in alkada form retain their intelligence and knowledge (though acting “as stupid as other alkada” is often their wisest course of action), and the frustrations of their existence often drives them insane. (To determine insanity, check once per year, with a base percentage chance of 50 minus the being’s wisdom score, and plus 1 per year spent in wonder form. What form the insanity takes varies widely, but often includes multiple personalities, with one or more of them being murderous and maniacally energetic, and others being schemers who may try to thwart the murderous sides.) Beings in wonder form exhibit no “dying scream” power when slain.

_Originally appeared in Secrets of the Magister (2000)._


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2012)

OK, not all that different.  

CL 13 on mind blank is ok.  

Are we settled on skills, feats, and CR 2?


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, not all that different.
> 
> CL 13 on mind blank is ok.
> 
> Are we settled on skills, feats, and CR 2?




They're fine as far as I'm concerned.

Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.     

We still need a Treasure entry, and the Egg version requires a spell resistance.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2012)

The original walking egg has MR 44% vs 90% for the original wingless wonder.  Comparing to our wingless wonder conversion, that suggests SR around CR+12.

The original wonder has 4xQ treasure, and the original egg has 2xQ.  I guess that looks like no coins, standard goods (gems only), no items; possibly up to double standard on the wonder's gems.  At least if I'm reading the old treasure tables correctly.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> The original walking egg has MR 44% vs 90% for the original wingless wonder.  Comparing to our wingless wonder conversion, that suggests SR around CR+12.




That'd make them SR 14, which seems about right.



freyar said:


> The original wonder has 4xQ treasure, and the original egg has 2xQ.  I  guess that looks like no coins, standard goods (gems only), no items;  possibly up to double standard on the wonder's gems.  At least if I'm  reading the old treasure tables correctly.




The original _Dragon Magazine_ version had "Often (70% chance), 5-8 gems will be found in its stomach."

I'd go for "double gems" for both of them.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2012)

Treasure: no coins, double goods (gems only), no items.  Work for you?


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Treasure: no coins, double goods (gems only), no items.  Work for you?




Sure.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2012)

Have the wingless wonder stay Small at 3-4 or 3-6 HD and give the walking egg 3-4 HD (Small), 5-6 HD (Medium)?  Or let them both go to Medium?  Your choice.


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Have the wingless wonder stay Small at 3-4 or 3-6 HD and give the walking egg 3-4 HD (Small), 5-6 HD (Medium)?  Or let them both go to Medium?  Your choice.




I was leaning towards giving them both the same Advancement, since they were originally (supposedly) one and the same creature.

We should say how much damage a Medium Walking Egg's twelve tentacles do - Going by RAW they'd be 1d2+2 damage each, which is a massive damage boost (average 8 to average 42!).

I think we should give it 1 damage tentacles like the regular-sized version, just more of them.

Hmm, if we give the Wingless Wonder size Advancement we'll have to fuss about its Medium-sized tentacle damage as well, so how about dropping that idea.

Still, we can keep them the same as far as their Hit Dice range goes by making them both Advance up to 6 HD.

*Walking Egg* - 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium) with 12 1-damage tentacles.
*Wingless Wonder* - 3-6 HD (Small)


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2012)

I'll go with that advancement, but I'd like to put a separate Advancement section under Combat for the Walking Egg, as follows.

Advancement: Medium walking eggs have 12 tentacle attacks, each of which does 1 hp damage.


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'll go with that advancement, but I'd like to put a separate Advancement section under Combat for the Walking Egg, as follows.
> 
> Advancement: Medium walking eggs have 12 tentacle attacks, each of which does 1 hp damage.




It's already got the Medium-sized combat info in the Walking Egg Advancement section. I was going to add the tentacle damage to that, so there seems to be no need to repeat it up in the Combat entry as well.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It's already got the Medium-sized combat info in the Walking Egg Advancement section. I was going to add the tentacle damage to that, so there seems to be no need to repeat it up in the Combat entry as well.



That's actually all I meant.  I consider the advancement section part of combat, that's all.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's actually all I meant.  I consider the advancement section part of combat, that's all.




Okay, that's simple enough.

Hmm, what's the Reach of a Medium Egg's tentacles?

I think it should be increased from the 10 ft. Reach of a Small Egg. I'll give it a 15 ft. tentacle Reach.

Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2012)

Want to update the treasure, HD advancement, and alignment lines (dropping the ? marks)?  Didn't we also decide on SR=CR+12 for the egg?

I would say LA should be -, but I suppose a PC could end up as a victim of the wonderform spell.  Urgh.

Tactics: Alkada blunder around, oblivious to nearly everything, sometimes even stumbling through the middle of ongoing battles.  When they actually decide to eat something, they grab it and bite.  [Wingless wonders unleash their wonder blast at a seemingly random time during combat.]


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Want to update the treasure, HD advancement, and alignment lines (dropping the ? marks)?  Didn't we also decide on SR=CR+12 for the egg?
> 
> I would say LA should be -, but I suppose a PC could end up as a victim of the wonderform spell.  Urgh.




Updating them will have to wait. I'm off to the cinema soon!



freyar said:


> Tactics: Alkada blunder around, oblivious to nearly everything, sometimes even stumbling through the middle of ongoing battles.  When they actually decide to eat something, they grab it and bite.  [Wingless wonders unleash their wonder blast at a seemingly random time during combat.]




The original versions talks about them feeling everything with their tentacles and chittering when excited. We ought to work that in the tactics or background somewhere.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2012)

Hmmm, something like this?

Alkada blunder around, seemingly oblivious, sometimes even stumbling through the middle of ongoing battles. As they walk, they feel everything around themselves with their tentacles; when they actually decide to eat something, they grab it and bite. [Wingless wonders unleash their wonder blast at a seemingly random time during combat.]


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, something like this?
> 
> Alkada blunder around, seemingly oblivious, sometimes even stumbling through the middle of ongoing battles. As they walk, they feel everything around themselves with their tentacles; when they actually decide to eat something, they grab it and bite. [Wingless wonders unleash their wonder blast at a seemingly random time during combat.]




A lot of that looks like it belongs in the background info more than tactics, but I guess it makes sense to put it all in the same place.

If an alkada decides to eat something, it tries to grab it in its tentacles and bite. 

*COMBAT
*An alkada wanders about aimlessly, feeling everything around itself with  its tentacles. If it touches something that feels tasty it may decide  to attack, chittering excitedly as it tries to grab the prospective meal  and bite it.

Alkadas are erratic creatures who seem oblivious to their surroundings. They may blunder into the midst of a battle or ignore a threatening enemy, but will defend themselves once attacked. Wingless wonders often use their wonder blast attacks if they get in a serious fight, but may also unleash a wonder blast seemingly at random.


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## freyar (Aug 23, 2012)

That looks pretty good to me.  It seems like background will probably have enough if we include anything about transformed alkada, etc.

Description: This odd creature is roughly egg-shaped with color fading from a dark purple to a blue-ish green.  It wobbles around on two apparently weak legs, and two tiny arms flap ineffectually at its mid-body.  A mass of tentacles sprout from the top of the egg.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty good to me.  It seems like background will probably have enough if we include anything about transformed alkada, etc.




Hmm, that last line doesn't need the "may". How about amending it to:

*COMBAT
*An alkada wanders about  aimlessly, feeling everything around itself with  its tentacles. If it  touches something that feels tasty it may decide  to attack, chittering  excitedly as it tries to grab the prospective meal  and bite it.

Alkadas are erratic creatures who seem oblivious to their surroundings.  They may blunder into the midst of a battle or ignore a threatening  enemy, but will defend themselves once attacked. Wingless wonders often  use their wonder blast special attack if they get in a serious fight, but also unleash wonder blasts seemingly at random. 	



freyar said:


> Description: This odd creature is roughly egg-shaped with color fading  from a dark purple to a blue-ish green.  It wobbles around on two  apparently weak legs, and two tiny arms flap ineffectually at its  mid-body.  A mass of tentacles sprout from the top of the egg.




You forgot the eyes and mouth.

How's this...

_This creature looks like an upright, blue-green egg with a purple base. A writhing nest of tentacles emerge from the pointed top of the "egg", just above a pair of large, sad-looking eyes. Set in the center of its tentacles is an oversized beak-like mouth. The creature walks on two rubbery legs and had a pair of puny arms near its mid-body. Its arms flap constantly, as if the bizarre lifeform were trying to fly._


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2012)

I can agree to all that.  And I think the combat section works for the walking egg if you just drop the wonder blast sentence, too.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can agree to all that.  And I think the combat section works for the walking egg if you just drop the wonder blast sentence, too.




That's agreeable...

Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2012)

I think using the same descriptive text for both of these works.

Whooo boy, time for flavor.  Or shall we deal with the wonderform spell first?  Is it worth writing a separate spell, or should we just note that alkadas have, at some times and in some societies, been a favored form for victims of baleful polymorph?


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## Cleon (Sep 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think using the same descriptive text for both of these works.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> Whooo boy, time for flavor.  Or shall we deal with the wonderform spell  first?




I'd rather do the flavour first.



freyar said:


> Is it worth writing a separate spell, or should we just note  that alkadas have, at some times and in some societies, been a favored  form for victims of baleful polymorph?




A _baleful polymorph_ can only transform the target into an Animal of 1 HD or less, an alkada is (a) an Aberration and (b) has 2 Hit Dice, so is ineligible on two counts.

You'd need a _polymorph any object_ spell or using the RAW.

I'm OK whipping up a _wonderform_ spell, or even a _wonderform_ and _baleful wonderform_ depending on whether it's a benign or malign spell.


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## freyar (Sep 7, 2012)

Ahhh, forgot that.  Anyway, on to the flavor.  Do you have any ideas?


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## Cleon (Sep 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Ahhh, forgot that.  Anyway, on to the flavor.  Do you have any ideas?




I like raspberry and chocolate flavours, but not necessarily mixed together.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2012)

Hopefully not mixed with wingless wonder.  Yuck! 

Well, I've read through the original descriptions of both versions, and I'm not coming up with a whole lot.  Maybe this:

Alkada are bizarre creatures, apparently frail but with surprising psionic abilities.  They exhibit almost childlike personalities as they wander the world, but .... ???


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hopefully not mixed with wingless wonder.  Yuck!
> 
> Well, I've read through the original descriptions of both versions, and I'm not coming up with a whole lot.  Maybe this:
> 
> Alkada are bizarre creatures, apparently frail but with surprising psionic abilities.  They exhibit almost childlike personalities as they wander the world, but .... ???




We've got quite a lot of flavour to pick from:

From the _Secrets of the Magister_ (The one we based the "Walking Egg" on)


Curious. Attracted to flashy objects or anything red or purple, the more brilliant the better.
Excitable. Redden when angry or excited.
Prefer to dine on fruit, but tend to chew anything that grab, spitting out whatever they don't like. Will eat offal.
Swallow "sparkly" things, like gems.
Hermaphrodite, fertilize each other when they meet by entwining tentacles while chittering excitedly in chorus. Pea-sized egg grows to head-size over six months before being lain. Glow purple-white when pregnant.
never willingly fight other wonders and dislike violence.
Show "astonishing ability" to cover great distances to return to a "favourite spot".
Putrid-tasting flesh, "poisonous to all mammals" (but no rules).
Eggs can be removed from a dead wonder and will hatch if kept in warm nutrient soup.
From the _Menzoberranzan _ version:


Redden when angry or excited
Tentacle ends rubbery & sticky and can "extrude a bony hook"
always curious, attracted to brilliant red or purple colors and flashy objects.
Prefer fruit and vegetables but will eat small animals.
Hermaphrodites. Entwine tentacles and chittering excitedly in chorus when they meet, which appears to be "mating contact". Develop eggs over 6-7 months. Glow purple-white glow pregnant. Egg hatches into well-developed wonder 1-4 rounds (minutes) after being laid.
Poisonous flesh (3d10 damage on failed save vs poison at -1, 1d4 and brief nausea on success).
Skin can be used as a temporary cloak vs non-magical fire.
That should be enough to work up some background.


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2012)

Did we ever discuss their immunity to fire and poison flesh?

We haven't included it in their stats.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2012)

This conversion will never end!

Both of them (the Menzo version in the text, the Magister version in the statblock) say they are immune to fire, so let's give that to both versions.  

I would also support giving the same poison flesh to both.  How about something like 1d4 Con plus X rounds nausea primary and 1d4 Con and X minutes sickened secondary damage?


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> This conversion will never end!




You'll miss it when it's finished. 



freyar said:


> Both of them (the Menzo version in the text, the Magister version in the  statblock) say they are immune to fire, so let's give that to both  versions.




I'd be OK with that.



freyar said:


> I would also support giving the same poison flesh to both.  How about  something like 1d4 Con plus X rounds nausea primary and 1d4 Con and X  minutes sickened secondary damage?




Something like that would be fine.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2012)

How about this?

*Poison (Ex):* Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:

_Alkada flesh:_ ingested, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d4 Con plus 2d10 rounds nauseated, secondary damage 1d4 Con plus 1d6 minutes sickened.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Feel free to play with the numbers.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about this?
> 
> *Poison (Ex):* Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:
> 
> ...




The nausea duration feels too long to me. Maybe 1d10 rounds instead?

I'd better Update the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft* with immunity to fire before I forget. Again.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2012)

1d10 rounds is ok, but then it wears off before the sickened condition kicks in from the secondary damage.  That just feels weird to me.


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> 1d10 rounds is ok, but then it wears off before the sickened condition kicks in from the secondary damage.  That just feels weird to me.




Yes, I was worried about that too.

How about "initial damage nauseated for 1d4 rounds followed by sickened for 1d6 minutes, secondary damage 1d8 Con and sickened for 2d10 minutes."?


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2012)

Sure.  Do the two sickened durations overlap or stack?  I can't remember how that goes.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure.  Do the two sickened durations overlap or stack?  I can't remember how that goes.




Overlap is the default, unless my memory deceives me.

We could specify that they stack if you prefer.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2012)

No, I think overlapping is better.

Poison (Ex): Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:

Alkada flesh: ingested, Fortitude DC X, initial damage nauseated for 1d4 rounds then sickened for 1d6 minutes, secondary damage 1d8 Con plus 2d10 minutes sickened. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> No, I think overlapping is better.
> 
> Poison (Ex): Eating alkada flesh exposes the eater to the following poison:
> 
> Alkada flesh: ingested, Fortitude DC X, initial damage nauseated for 1d4 rounds then sickened for 1d6 minutes, secondary damage 1d8 Con plus 2d10 minutes sickened. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Works for me! I'll stick in the appropriate value for X and update the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2012)

Back to the flavor text, height, weight, and language?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> Back to the flavor text, height, weight, and language?




Sure. What do you suggest?

I'm not sure "chittering" counts as a language.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2012)

I don't know if the chittering does, but they're intelligent enough I'd give them Undercommon in a squeaky tone. 

3 ft tall?


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't know if the chittering does, but they're intelligent enough I'd give them Undercommon in a squeaky tone.




There's nothing in the original to indicate that they can speak or understand languages, and it says that folk cursed into Wonder form can't speak (but may only chitter), so I'd rather not give them any languages.



freyar said:


> 3 ft tall?




All the statblocks have "4' tall" in the size line.


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2012)

No language then, fine.

4 ft tall is a bit tall for Small, isn't it?  If we're going to go with that, they should be quite light to account for the size category.  40 lb or less?


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> No language then, fine.
> 
> 4 ft tall is a bit tall for Small, isn't it?  If we're going to go with that, they should be quite light to account for the size category.  40 lb or less?




Yes, and they're also ovoid in shape, which means they'd be bulky for their height.

That's more like Medium size, not small.

Hmm, I suppose we could assume the 4 foot height is more of an "up to 4 feet tall" deal for an Alkada that's advanced to Medium, and have an average sized specimen be smaller.

Or perhaps the "4 feet tall" includes the nest of tentacles spouting from their head and the globular body is considerably shorter? Say, an average of 18 inches for the tentacles, leaving 30 inches for the rest of the body.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2012)

Making 1-1/2 ft of the height due to the tentacles helps a lot.  I'd be happy with that.  In that case, I'd push the weight a bit lower, but maybe denser than I'd accounted for.  30 lb?


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Making 1-1/2 ft of the height due to the tentacles helps a lot.  I'd be happy with that.  In that case, I'd push the weight a bit lower, but maybe denser than I'd accounted for.  30 lb?




I'm OK with 40 pounds.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2012)

40 lb it is.  Do you care to take a stab at the flavor text?  You gave quite a list, but I confess I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by these.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> 40 lb it is.  Do you care to take a stab at the flavor text?  You gave quite a list, but I confess I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by these.




Let's see...

A walking egg is a type of creatures sages call the alkada, a group which also included the wingless wonder. Alkadas are short-sighted, curious and fearlessly stupid. They often make a high-pitched chittering, and redden when angry or excited. An alkada is attracted by red or purple, the brighter the more alluring, and are fascinated by sparkly translucent objects, which they swallow and carry around in their stomach. An alkada must be cut open to extract these shiny trophies, which may include a few gems or pieces of valuable crystal among the polished pieces of glass and pretty pebbles.

An alkada's favorite food is ripe fruit, but they can eat almost any living (or once living) thing they can fit into their mouths. Most of their diet is fruit and vegetables, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles. Alkadas also eat carrion, they can live off kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on fresh vegetation (leaves, grass, and flowers). Alkadas do not attack other alkadas, but will feed off the corpse of an alkada if they are sure it is dead and rotting.

Alkadas are hermaphrodites. Whenever a solitary alkada meet another of their species, they entwine tentacles and chitter passionately for several minutes, exchanging fluids that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside their alkada partner. They usually then separate and continue their solitary lives, but may wander together as a mated pairs. An alkada can carry up to a dozen eggs, but only fertilizes one each time they meet another alkada. After six or seven months, the alkada excretes a fully-developed egg, rubbery and as large as a human head, which splits open to reveal a juvenile alkada. A newly hatched alkada can live independently, it often accompanies its parent for a while but is expected to fend for itself.

A walking egg stands about 4 feet tall, including a nest of tentacles about 18 inches high. They weigh about 40 pounds.

Alkadas do not speak, their chittering carries no more meaning than an animal's cries.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2012)

Hmm, we haven't done anything about the _faerie fire_ effect. Should we include that?


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2012)

That flavor text is pretty good except for a few run-on sentences.  But first let's deal with the faerie fire.  Remind me, what was that about?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> That flavor text is pretty good except for a few run-on sentences.  But first let's deal with the faerie fire.  Remind me, what was that about?




Pregnant alkadas are continuously surrounded by an eldritch glow produced by their magic-resisting field, which has the same effect as a _faerie fire_ spell It also flickers out for a round if they use their "wonderblast" and what do you mean about it having a few run-on sentences.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2012)

Hmmmm.  I think we can include the faerie fire in the flavor text.  Do you agree?


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmmm.  I think we can include the faerie fire in the flavor text.  Do you agree?




Yes, I didn't fancy giving it a mechanical effect.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2012)

How about this?

A walking egg is a type of creature sages call the alkada, a group which also includes the wingless wonder. Alkadas are short-sighted, curious and fearlessly stupid. They often make a high-pitched chittering, and redden when angry or excited. An alkada is attracted by red or purple, the brighter the more alluring, and are fascinated by sparkly translucent objects, which they swallow and carry around in their stomach. An alkada must be cut open to extract these shiny trophies, which may include a few gems or pieces of valuable crystal among the polished pieces of glass and pretty pebbles.

An alkada's favorite food is ripe fruit, but they can eat almost any living (or once living) thing they can fit into their mouths. Most of their diet is fruit and vegetables, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles. Alkadas also eat carrion: they can live off kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on fresh vegetation (leaves, grass, and flowers). Alkadas do not attack other alkadas, but will feed off the corpse of an alkada if they are sure it is dead and rotting.

Alkadas are hermaphrodites. Whenever a solitary alkada meet another of their species, they entwine tentacles and chitter passionately for several minutes, exchanging fluids that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside their alkada partner. They usually then separate and continue their solitary lives but may wander together as a mated pairs. An alkada can carry up to a dozen eggs but only fertilizes one each time they meet another alkada. After six or seven months, the alkada excretes a fully-developed egg, rubbery and as large as a human head, which splits open to reveal a juvenile alkada. A newly hatched alkada can live independently; it often accompanies its parent for a while but is expected to fend for itself.  Pregnant alkada radiate _faerie fire_, which may flicker out when they use their psionic abilities.

A walking egg stands about 4 feet tall, including a nest of tentacles about 18 inches high. They weigh about 40 pounds.

Alkadas do not speak, their chittering carries no more meaning than an animal's cries.


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about this?




I'd rather not mention the _faerie fire_ since we're not using the spell to determine the glow's effects.

Also, only the wingless wonder has a glow that flickers - the walking egg's seems to be constant.

We can probably trim the words down a bit too from my initial draft.

How about...

A walking egg is a type of creature called the alkada, a group that includes the wingless wonder. Alkada often make a high-pitched chittering, and redden when angry or excited. They are short-sighted, curious and fearlessly stupid. An alkada is attracted by red or purple, the brighter the more alluring, and are fascinated by sparkly translucent objects, which they swallow and carry in their stomach. These trophies may include valuable gems or crystals among the polished pieces of glass and pretty pebbles, but the alkada must be cut open to extract its shiny treasure.

An alkada's favorite food is ripe fruit, but they eat almost any living (or once living) thing they can fit into their mouths. Most of their diet is vegetarian, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles. Alkada also eat carrion: they can live off kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on fresh vegetation (leaves, grass, and flowers). Alkada never attack each other, but will feed off a dead alkada once it is rotting.

Alkada are hermaphrodites. Whenever a solitary alkada meets another of its species, they entwine tentacles and chitter passionately for several minutes, exchanging fluids that fertilize pea-shaped eggs inside their partner. They usually then separate to continue their solitary lives, but may wander together as a mated pair. Alkada can carry up to a dozen eggs, but only fertilize one each time they meet another alkada. Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle. Six to seven months after fertilization the alkada excretes a fully-developed egg, rubbery and as large as a human head, which splits open to reveal a juvenile alkada. A newly hatched alkada can live independently; it often accompanies its parent for a while but is expected to fend for itself.  

A walking egg stands about 4 feet tall, including a nest of tentacles about 18 inches high. They weigh about 40 pounds.

Alkada do not speak, their chittering carries no more meaning than an animal's cries.


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2012)

Upon reflection, I think it might make sense to make the glow a SQ. Mainly so the DM is more likely to remember it!*Maternal Glow (Ex):*  Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light  equal to a candle, this light pulses when a wingless wonder uses its  wonderblast.​Also, the original wingless wonder loses its anti-magic in the round it unleashed a Wonderblast, suggesting we should modify it as follows:*Wonderblast (Su):* Once per day, a wingless wonder can create a wild magic  effect as a standard action. This functions exactly like a _rod of  wonder_,  except effects originate from the wingless wonder and all saving   throws have a DC of 14. The save DCs are Charisma-based and include a +2  racial bonus.

When a wingless wonder uses its wonderblast it loses its spell resistance until the end of the next round. Its maternal glow effect (see above) flickers and pulses during this period, even if the alkada is not pregnant.​I've updated the *Walking Egg Working Draft*     and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*     to fix a couple of erroneous "alkadas" - the original entry shows "alkada" is both singular and plural.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't like it as a normal SQ (and if it's eldritch, shouldn't it be an Su ability?), since presumably most alkada won't have it, unless they're like tribbles.  But if you really don't want it in the flavor, how about an underbar?  

Also, I thought we'd decided long ago when Shade was still with us that the "flickering" of the SR was too complicated.

And, finally, the working drafts both list the same original sources.  But shouldn't they list different ones, since we decided the different original sources represent different monsters?

Man, I can't believe we're still working on these.  Do you realize we started in February?  They're worse than Mossmutter!


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't like it as a normal SQ (and if it's eldritch, shouldn't it be an Su ability?), since presumably most alkada won't have it, unless they're like tribbles.  But if you really don't want it in the flavor, how about an underbar?




Going by the flavour text, I'd think they spend most of their time pregnant.

Hmm, actually it might be a (Su) ability since it's a side-effect of the "Anti-Magic Field". I guess it depends what type the SR is.

Making it an underbar seems a good solution.



freyar said:


> Also, I thought we'd decided long ago when Shade was still with us that the "flickering" of the SR was too complicated.




I don't mind leaving that for a Cleon Special.



freyar said:


> And, finally, the working drafts both list the same original sources.  But shouldn't they list different ones, since we decided the different original sources represent different monsters?




Hmm, we should add a note to the Walking Egg that it's based on the "Wingless Wonder" from _Secrets of the Magister_.



freyar said:


> Man, I can't believe we're still working on these.  Do you realize we started in February?  They're worse than Mossmutter!




They're not as bad as Mossmutter - but then few things are!


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2012)

So, in that case, are we agreed to

1) leave the wonderblast as it is?  
2) add an underbar on pregnant alkada with Maternal Glow as an Su ability?


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> So, in that case, are we agreed to
> 
> 1) leave the wonderblast as it is?
> 2) add an underbar on pregnant alkada with Maternal Glow as an Su ability?




That's OK by me.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2012)

*Pregnant Alkada*

Pregnant alkada gain the following special quality.

Maternal Glow (Su): Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle.  [When a pregnant wingless wonder uses its wonderblast, the light from its maternal glow flickers.]


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> *Pregnant Alkada*
> 
> Pregnant alkada gain the following special quality.
> 
> Maternal Glow (Su): Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle.  [When a pregnant wingless wonder uses its wonderblast, the light from its maternal glow flickers.]




That's a lot of repeats of "pregnant alkada". How about:

*Pregnant Alkada*
Alkada that are carrying fertilized eggs gain the following special quality.

* Maternal Glow (Su):* Pregnant alkada radiate an eldritch purple-white glow that sheds light equal to a candle.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2012)

They're very pregnant.   That revision looks fine.  Should we put in the bit about flickering in the wonderblast?


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> They're very pregnant.   That revision looks fine.  Should we put in the bit about flickering in the wonderblast?




I thought you wanted to cut out the flickering?

If we are including it, I'd add it to the Maternal Glow SQ.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2012)

I wanted to cut any mechanical effect of the flickering.  I meant that we could put in a fluff line into Maternal Glow for the wingless wonder: The maternal glow of a wingless wonder flickers for one round after the wonder uses its wonderblast.  But maybe that's not worth it.  I'm just as happy ignoring the flickering bit altogether.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> I wanted to cut any mechanical effect of the flickering.  I meant that we could put in a fluff line into Maternal Glow for the wingless wonder: The maternal glow of a wingless wonder flickers for one round after the wonder uses its wonderblast.  But maybe that's not worth it.  I'm just as happy ignoring the flickering bit altogether.




Whichever makes you happier.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Whichever makes you happier.




Oh, and I'll update the *Walking Egg Working Draft* and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft* with Maternal Glow.

I also added the latest draft of the background fluff to the Walking Egg.

Anything we need to change for the Wingless Wonder fluff apart from the names?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't think we need to change the fluff from one critter to the other. But, as a vegetarian, I'm don't like saying that their diet is "mostly vegetarian."  I'd say instead, "Most of their diet is plant matter, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles."


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't think we need to change the fluff from one critter to the other. But, as a vegetarian, I'm don't like saying that their diet is "mostly vegetarian."  I'd say instead, "Most of their diet is plant matter, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles."




How about substituting that paragraph with:

Most of an alkada's diet is vegetation, supplemented by whatever small animals come within reach of their tentacles. An alkada's favorite food is ripe fruit, but they will eat almost any living (or once living) thing they can fit into their mouths.  They can live off carrion, kitchen refuse and animal wastes provided they occasionally dine on fresh plants. Alkada never attack each other, but will feed off a dead alkada once it is rotting.​


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2012)

That'll work.  Do we need anything else, or are these mercifully done?


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> That'll work.




Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft* and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Do we need anything else, or are these mercifully done?




That depends on whether you want to write up the _wonderform_ spell(s). 

While updating I realized we forgot to mention the retractile tentacles, so I've split the first paragraph to mention that.

I think we've finished with the crunch & fluff. If we decide to add the _wonderform_ spell we can slap it on as a subentry.

Should we add a note to explain that the "Walking Egg" is based on the _Secrets of the Magister_ (2000) version of the Wingless Wonder?


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2012)

Yes to the note about the walking egg.

Hmmm.  Think we can do wonderform quickly?


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes to the note about the walking egg.
> 
> Hmmm.  Think we can do wonderform quickly?




I'm game if you are, although I can't guarantee the quickly...


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2013)

Maybe base it on _baleful polymorph_, which might be a bit easier than regular _polymorph_ to use?


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## Cleon (Jan 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> Maybe base it on _baleful polymorph_, which might be a bit easier than regular _polymorph_ to use?




The wonderform spell that's in the books is more like _polymorph_ or _shapechange_ in that it's a beneficial spell, turning the recipient into a spellcasting wonder.

There's also mention of wizards turning their enemies into non-spellcasting wonders, but that could just be _polymorph any object_.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2013)

Well, if you'd like to crib from polymorph but specify the stats, I'm ok with that.  I don't have time to draft the spell right now, though.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2013)

freyar said:


> Well, if you'd like to crib from polymorph but specify the stats, I'm ok with that.  I don't have time to draft the spell right now, though.




We can keep it pretty simple. I'd use something like this:

*Wonderform*_
*Transmutation*_
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 7 *[?]*
*Components:* V, S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* You
*Duration:* Permanent (D)

This spell functions like _shapechange_, except it enables you to assume the form of a wingless wonder. You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of a wingless wonder, including its continuous _mind blank_, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. The _wonderform_ spell ends instantly if you assume the form of another creature but is otherwise permanent until the spell is broken, you even remain in _wonderform_ should you be killed. Any parts of your body that are cut from you (i.e. the wingless wonder's tentacles) do not revert to their original forms.

You can cast spells and use spell-like abilities while in _wonderform_. Material components that melded into your body when you assumed _wonderform_ can be used to cast spells but are otherwise nonfunctional. Wingless wonders are incapable of meaningful speech, any verbal spell components you utter sound like high-pitched chittering but still function normally. You use your tentacles to perform any somatic components a spell might have.

Other creatures who observe you spellcasting have a -20 penalty on Spellcraft check to identify a spell you cast, due to the _wonderform's_ perturbation of the spell's components.

The alien structure of a wingless wonder's brain puts great strain on your mind. At the end of every 24 hours you spend in _wonderform_ you must succeed at a Will save (DC 15 +1 per day after the first) or take 1d4 Intelligence damage. This damage cannot reduce your Intelligence to below Int 6 (the average score of a wingless wonder), but if your Intelligence is reduced to 6 or lower you lost the ability to dismiss the _wonderform_ spell and will remain a wingless wonder permanently unless another effect breaks the _wonderform_ spell.

There are tales of spellcasters wandering for decades in the shape of a wingless wonder before encountering a helpful creature able to use _break enchantment_ or _polymorph_ to return them to normal.​
...well, that's pretty simple *for me*. 

Note that I made the Int damage a lot faster than the original, which was only 1 damage/year. I wanted it to operate in a somewhat plausible "adventuring timeframe".


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2013)

I like it!  I think I'd slow down the Int damage a bit to 1/day instead of 1d4/day on a failed save, but that's pretty good.  I'm not quite sure of the spell level -- due to the drawbacks, I could see reducing it to Sor/Wiz 6 maybe.  I'd also add a note that alkadas have at times been popular final forms for _polymorph any object_ in some cultures.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> I like it!  I think I'd slow down the Int damage a bit to 1/day instead of 1d4/day on a failed save, but that's pretty good.  I'm not quite sure of the spell level -- due to the drawbacks, I could see reducing it to Sor/Wiz 6 maybe.  I'd also add a note that alkadas have at times been popular final forms for _polymorph any object_ in some cultures.




The original spell was 5th level, but I think that's too far. Indeed, I feel 7th may be too low. They're getting free _mind blank_ in the bargain and that's an 8th level spell.

The original spell specifies "_the spell conceals the caster’s true alignment with the chaotic neutral aura of a wingless wonder, as well as shielding the caster’s mind from all contact: it can’t be read, influenced, or attacked_".

I was thinking of adding a "detects as chaotic neutral" bit to the spell but thought we'd better discuss it first.

Another issue is the wingless wonder's Spell Resistance. I don't think we should use the CR+21 formula of the monster - 'cause that'll give it SR 36+! We could give them the SR CL+12 of a _spell resistance_ spell (which is conveniently the same as a walking egg's spell resistance). Alternatively, we could fix the spell resistance to the SR 23 of a standard wingless wonder, which is less than the SR 26+ a wizard able to cast a 7th level _wonderform_ spell would get from a _spell resistance_ spell.

Making it an 8th level spell would suit me better, though.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> I like it!  I think I'd slow down the Int damage a bit to 1/day instead of 1d4/day on a failed save, but that's pretty good.  I'm not quite sure of the spell level -- due to the drawbacks, I could see reducing it to Sor/Wiz 6 maybe.  I'd also add a note that alkadas have at times been popular final forms for _polymorph any object_ in some cultures.




Oh, and I'd be OK reducing the Int damage a bit. The _polymorph any object_ bit seems like it would belong in the flavour text or an "In Faerûn" subentry.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2013)

That is really a quite powerful spell now that you mention the mind blank.  I can go with 8th level, and I'm also ok with adding "Your alignment detects as chaotic neutral for the duration of the spell."  Should that include for the purposes of magical objects (say that bestow negative levels on wielders of the wrong alignment)?

I'll agree to put the _polymorph any object_ note into the "In Faerun" entry (assuming we're doing one).


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2013)

freyar said:


> That is really a quite powerful spell now that you mention the mind blank.  I can go with 8th level, and I'm also ok with adding "Your alignment detects as chaotic neutral for the duration of the spell."




Let's make it 8th level and apparently CN then.

What about fixing the spell resistance?



freyar said:


> Should that include for the purposes of magical objects  (say that bestow negative levels on wielders of the wrong  alignment)?




Hmm, I would think non-detection alignment effects would would normally.



freyar said:


> I'll agree to put the _polymorph any object_ note into the "In Faerun" entry (assuming we're doing one).




Any preferences for the *In Faerun* text?


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2013)

Ahh, forgot about the SR.  OK, first of all, is the wingless wonder supposed to have SR=CR+21 while the walking egg gets SR=CR+12?  I can't find where we talked about SR in the long discussion on these two, but that almost seems like a typo.  Anyway, I'm inclined to go with the spell granting the SR of a typical alkada (of appropriate form), since the spell should be geared toward the typical form.
And the final monsters should not have SR=CR+X but rather a fixed numerical value for SR which happens to equal CR+X for the typical specimen.  CR+X is just a mnemonic for us, not an absolute formula; DMs need to use judgement about changing SR when they advance critters.


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## Cleon (Jan 16, 2013)

freyar said:


> Ahh, forgot about the SR.  OK, first of all, is the wingless wonder supposed to have SR=CR+21 while the walking egg gets SR=CR+12?  I can't find where we talked about SR in the long discussion on these two, but that almost seems like a typo.  Anyway, I'm inclined to go with the spell granting the SR of a typical alkada (of appropriate form), since the spell should be geared toward the typical form.




Shade preferred a CR+X format for spell resistance, so that's what he put in the original Homebrew. The +12 and +21 is not a typo, but was to reflect the _Secrets of the Magister_ version (i.e. the "Egg" alkada") having 44% Magic Resistance and the other versions having 90% MR or a continuous _anti-magic shell_.

The spell granting SR 23 would be my preferred solution.



freyar said:


> And the final monsters should not have SR=CR+X but rather a fixed numerical value for SR which happens to equal CR+X for the typical specimen.  CR+X is just a mnemonic for us, not an absolute formula; DMs need to use judgement about changing SR when they advance critters.




I'm fine with it as-is, but it wouldn't bother me much if we change it.


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2013)

Shade used CR+X as a placeholder until we figured out the CR.  Then he went back and put in the specific value at the end (except when he forgot).

Given that a typical wingless wonder is SR 23, I'd go for a flat SR 23 in the spell also.


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## Cleon (Jan 19, 2013)

freyar said:


> Shade used CR+X as a placeholder until we figured out the CR.  Then he went back and put in the specific value at the end (except when he forgot).




That's OK by me, so I guess I might as well put it in the Working Drafts:

Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft* and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.

How about this for the *In Faerun* text:

*In Faerûn*
In recent years it has been fashionable for powerful wizards to use _polymorph any object_ to transform their rivals into wingless wonders. Such transformed wonders cannot speak or perform precise gestures so are unable to cast spells with verbal or somatic components, so most are stuck in alkada form until they can find someone to break the enchantment upon them.



freyar said:


> Given that a typical wingless wonder is SR 23, I'd go for a flat SR 23 in the spell also.




That's my preferred solution.

Revising...

*Wonderform*_
*Transmutation*_
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 8
*Components:* V, S
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action
*Range:* Personal
*Target:* You
*Duration:* Permanent (D)

This spell functions like _shapechange_, except it enables you to  assume the form of a wingless wonder. You gain all extraordinary and  supernatural abilities of a wingless wonder, including its continuous _mind blank_ and spell resistance 23, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

While in _wonderform_, alignment detection abilities register you as chaotic neutral. Other alignment-dependent effects, such as a _chaos hammer_ spell or an _axiomatic_ weapon bestowing a negative level on chaotic creatures, will affect you according to your actual alignment.

The _wonderform_  spell ends instantly if you assume the form of another creature but is  otherwise permanent until the spell is broken, you even remain in _wonderform_  should you be killed. Any parts of your body that are cut from you  (i.e. the wingless wonder's tentacles) do not revert to their original  forms.

You can cast spells and use spell-like abilities while in _wonderform_. Material components that melded into your body when you assumed _wonderform_  can be used to cast spells but are otherwise nonfunctional. Wingless  wonders are incapable of meaningful speech, any verbal spell components  you utter sound like high-pitched chittering but still function  normally. You use your tentacles to perform any somatic components a  spell might have.

Other creatures who observe you spellcasting have a -20 penalty on Spellcraft check to identify a spell you cast, due to the _wonderform's_ perturbation of the spell's components.

The alien structure of a wingless wonder's brain puts great strain on your mind. At the end of every 24 hours you spend in _wonderform_  you must succeed at a Will save (DC 15 +1 per day after the first) or  take 1d4 Intelligence damage. This damage cannot reduce your  Intelligence to below Int 6 (the average score of a wingless wonder),  but if your Intelligence is reduced to 6 or lower you lost the ability  to dismiss the _wonderform_ spell and will remain a wingless wonder permanently unless another effect breaks the _wonderform_ spell.

There are tales of spellcasters wandering for decades in the shape of a  wingless wonder before encountering a helpful creature able to use _break enchantment_ or _polymorph_ to return them to normal.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2013)

Very good!  Let's add those sections and (finally) call it a day!


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## Cleon (Jan 23, 2013)

freyar said:


> Very good!  Let's add those sections




Updating the *Walking Egg Working Draft* and *Wingless Wonder Working Draft*.

I added the following to the *In Faerûn* text, since we forgot to explain the _wonderform_ spell.

Certain drow wizards in the underdark of Faerûn have developed a secret _wonderform_  spell which enables them to transform into wingless wonders while  retaining their spellcasting abilities. They often use this spell to  hide from the drow Matriarchs and the clerics of Lolth.​


freyar said:


> and (finally) call it a day!




It's a day!


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2013)

It looks good!  Whew!


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> It looks good!  Whew!




It's a relief that it's finally over...

...What the blazes? The edits I made have disappeared from the Wingless Wonder!

I'd better redo them.


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2013)

Cleon said:


> ...What the blazes? The edits I made have disappeared from the Wingless Wonder!
> 
> I'd better redo them.




...well that seems to have fixed it. I tweaked the Walking Egg a bit and added a like to the Wingless Wonder.

I think we're done with them at last!

So what's next?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2013)

You may have been editing them as the server was about to get switched over...  Anyway, glad those are done!

Ummm, unless there's something to add to one of our groups, I'd suggest letting this thread rest a little.  I think the conversions might go faster if we concentrate on a few at a time.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> Ummm, unless there's something to add to one of our groups, I'd suggest letting this thread rest a little.  I think the conversions might go faster if we concentrate on a few at a time.




We might as well put this thread to sleep.

Actually, I think we'd about run out of clear candidates for Psionic Monsters, so we might have trouble finding anything to convert even if we wanted to keep this thread busy.


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2013)

Cleon said:


> We might as well put this thread to sleep.
> 
> Actually, I think we'd about run out of clear candidates for Psionic Monsters, so we might have trouble finding anything to convert even if we wanted to keep this thread busy.




We had a request from Filby to update the *cessirid* and the *illithidae* to 3.5. 

Shall we do those?

Better late than never.


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2013)

I decided to make a start on the Illithidae updates...


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2013)

*Illithidae, Cessirid - Earlier Versions*

*Cessirid* *[Original Stats from Dragon #150]
**FREQUENCY:*_ Rare (common near Illithids)
_*NO. APPEARING:*_ 1-20
_*ARMOR CLASS:*_ 4
_*MOVE:*_ 18”//15”
_*HIT DICE:*_ 8 + 16
_*% IN LAIR:*_ 5%
_*TREASURE TYPE:*_ Nil
_*NO. OF ATTACKS:*_ 1 bite
_*DAMAGE/ATTACK:*_ 2-16
_*SPECIAL ATTACKS:*_ Poisonous bite, psionics
_*SPECIAL DEFENSES:*_ Psionics
_*MAGIC RESISTANCE:*_ 5%
_*INTELLIGENCE:*_ Average
_*ALIGNMENT:*_ Lawful neutral (evil tendencies)
_*SIZE:*_ M (2’ at shoulder)
_*PSIONIC ABILITY:*_ 90
_*Attack/Defense Modes:*_ B,E/F,G
_
Cessirids travel in packs. A cessirid’s body is canine, with a large head, outsize eyes, and a rending beak in place of teeth. There are four short tentacles around the mouth. Short spines jut from the back. The skin is smooth, slimy, and pale gray in color. The spaces between the toes are webbed. Though small, cessirids are shockingly powerful.

In combat, a cessirid leaps and bites at its adversary, inflicting horrible damage with its outer jaws. The tentacles around the mouth cause a stinging and burning sensation upon contact with flesh (save vs. poison for each bite that hits; failure yields a -3 penalty to armor class, saving throws, and to-hit rolls) that lasts for 3-12 turns.

Cessirids may use the following psionic disciplines at the 6th level of mastery: _body equilibrium_, _ESP_ and _dimension door_. They use these in the pursuit and detection of prey, or to escape if attacked by a superior force.

These creatures live in tightly knit packs, working together silently and efficiently to bring down prey of any sort (they can communicate with others of their kind telepathically over distances of up to 24” at no cost to psionic strength). Though they are willing at times to negotiate with other intelligent creatures, they have little desire for anything but food and reproduction. In general, they are wily and treacherous. On occasion, if they are not hungry, cessirids will harry and torment prey for hours before killing it. Rivalry between cessirid packs is sharp, but they will generally band together against other creatures.

Reproduction is accomplished by depositing 1-3 larvae in the body of a victim. The juveniles grow quickly and seem able to prevent the decay of the corpse during their development. Adults guard the larvae until the latter metamorphose. For reasons not entirely clear, cessirids prefer intelligent creatures for larval food.

Thanks to millenia of training and breeding, the dogs of the githyanki (kaoulgrim, from “Hounds of Space and Darkness,” in _DRAGON _issue #117) and the cessirids are fanatic enemies, and will fight one another regardless of other constraints (even magical _charms_). Szarkel, the dogs of the githzerai (from the same article and issue as kaoulgrim) will always avoid meetings with cessirids. Szarkel can detect the approach of cessirids within one mile, probably by detecting the use of the latter’s psionic talents.

*Illithidae, Cessirid **[Enworld Creature Catalog 3.0 Conversion]*
Medium-size Aberration 
*Hit Dice: *8d8+16 (52 hp)
*Initiative: *+3 (Dex)
*Speed:* 50 ft, swim 40 ft
*AC:* 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural)
*Attacks:*Bite +8 melee
*Damage: *Bite 2d8+3 and poison
*Face/Reach: *5 ft by 5 ft/5 ft
*Special Attacks: *Psionics, poison, trip
*Special Qualities: *Telepathy, SR 12, amphibious, slime, light vulnerability
*Saves: *Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +8 
*Abilities: *Str 15, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10 
*Skills: *Hide +9, Jump +7, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Swim +7
*Feats: *Alertness, Weapon Finesse (bite) 
*Climate: *Any underground
*Organization: *Solitary or pack (1-20)
*Challenge Rating: *07
*Treasure: *None
*Alignment: *Usually lawful neutral (with evil tendencies)
*Advancement: *9-16 HD (Medium-Size); 17-24 HD (Large)

The cessirid is a small pack hunter, similar to canines. This monster has a large head and oversized eyes, and a fearsome jaw with a spiked beak at the end. This creature's horrible mouth has four feeding tentacles surrounding it, two on each side of the face. Its canine body is 2 feet high at the shoulder, and has smooth, slimy skin of a pale gray color. Its webbed feet help it to swim as well as run. Jutting out from its back are a series of short spines. These creatures live and work together in silent, tightly-knit, efficient packs. They are often used as hounds by illithids. 

*COMBAT*
Cessirids like to leap at their opponents and bite with their beaks. The tentacles around the mouth hit automatically on every successful bite attack, and sting with poison that disorients foes. They use their psionic powers to locate and pursue prey, or to escape if outmatched. 

*Psionics (Sp)*: At will - _body equilibrium, detect thoughts_, and _dimension door_. These abilities are as the powers manifested by a 6th-level psion. 
_Attack/Defense Modes (Sp)_: At will - _mind thrust, psychic crush_/_empty mind, thought shield_ 

*Poison (Ex)*: Contact, Fortitude save (DC 16); initial damage 1d6 temporary Dexterity; secondary damage 1d4 temporary Dexterity. 

*Trip (Ex)*: A cessirid that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action (see page 139 in the Player's Handbook) without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the cessirid. 

*Telepathy (Su)*: Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin within 24 feet. 

*Amphibious (Ex)*: Illithidae possess both lungs and gills, and can survive indefinitely on land and in water. 

*Slime (Ex)*: The slimy coating that covers the skin of illithidae is proof against adhesion. Illithidae are completely protected against the nonmagical glues of creatures such as the mimic and the roper. Additionally, their slimy skin imposes a -4 penalty on all grapple checks against them. 

*Light Vulnerability (Ex)*: The eyes and bodies of illithidae are vulnerable to normal sunlight and anything above a dim light source. Illumination equal to the light spell or brighter imposes a -1 penalty to the illithidae's attack rolls. Additionally, exposure to full sunlight causes 1 hit point of damage per minute to any unprotected illithidae.


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2013)

*Illithidae, Cessirid Update to 3.5 Working Draft*

*Illithidae, Cessirid*
Medium Aberration (Psionic)
*Hit Dice: *8d8+32 (68 hp)
*Initiative: *+3 (Dex)
*Speed:* 50 ft, swim 40 ft
*Armor Class:* 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+10 [_plus slime_]
*Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) and tentacles +5 melee touch (improved grab plus poison)
*Space/Reach: *5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks: *Improved grab, poison, psi-like abilities, trip
*Special Qualities: *Amphibious, light vulnerability, slime, power resistance 12, telepathy
*Saves: *Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +8 
*Abilities: *Str 19, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15
*Skills:* Concentration +9, Hide +9, Jump +12, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9, Swim +12
*Feats: *Alertness, Open Minded, Psionic Weapon
*Environment: *Any underground
*Organization: *Solitary or pack (2-20)
*Challenge Rating: *6
*Treasure: *None
*Alignment: *Usually lawful neutral (with evil tendencies)
*Advancement: *9-16 HD (Medium-Size); 17-24 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A pale gray creature shaped like a canine, but its beak and smooth  slimy skin show it's no dog. Its large head has oversized eyes as black  as pools of ink. Four short tentacles surround its toothless, rending  jaws. There are short spines jutting from its back. Its paws are webbed  for swimming_.

Cessirids are a form of illithidae analogous to pack hunting canines  like wolves or hyenas. Cessirids live in tight-knit packs that use  telepathy to cooperate with silent efficiency. The mind flayers have  used them as "hounds" for thousands of years.

A cessirid stands roughly 2 feet high at the shoulder and weighs up to 150 pounds.

Cessirids can  communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin    (illithids and  illithidae). Their telepathy can not "speak" to   non-illithids, but it  does allow them to understand the languages of any   intelligent  creature. Cessirids can speak Undercommon in a growling,   yapping  voice.

*Combat*
Cessirids like to leap at their opponents and bite with their beaks. The  tentacles around the mouth hit automatically on every successful bite  attack, and sting with poison that disorients foes. They use their  psionic powers to locate and pursue prey, or to escape if outmatched. 

*Amphibious (Ex)*: Illithidae possess both lungs and gills, and can survive indefinitely on land and in water.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a cessirid must hit with   its tentacles attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free   action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the   grapple check, it establishes a hold and affects its opponent with its   poison.

*Light Vulnerability (Ex)*: The eyes and bodies of  illithidae are  vulnerable to normal sunlight and anything above a dim  light source.  Illumination equal to the light spell or brighter imposes  a -1 penalty  to the illithidae's attack rolls. Additionally, exposure  to full  sunlight causes 1 hit point of damage per minute to any  unprotected  illithidae.

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)*: At will—_body equilibrium_, _read thoughts_, _psionic dimension door_, _empty mind_, _mind thrust_, _psychic crush_ and_ thought shield_.  These abilities are as the powers manifested by a 6th-level psion. The  save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Poison (Ex)*: A cessirid's mouth-tentacles constantly ooze poison.  Any  creature hit by a cessirid's bite or tentacle attacks must save   against this venomous slime. An opponent must also save against a  cessirid's poison  every time the illithidae makes an opposed grapple  check against them. The  cessirid does not need to win the grapple  check, since mere contact is  enough to poison its foe.

_Cessirid Slime:_ Contact or injury, Fortitude save (DC 18);  initial  damage  sickened for 1d10 minutes; secondary damage 1d6 Dex and  sickened  for 1d2  hours.

*Slime (Ex)*: The slimy coating that covers the skin of  illithidae  is proof against adhesion. Illithidae are completely  protected against  the nonmagical glues of creatures such as the mimic  and the roper.  Additionally, their slimy skin imposes a -4 penalty on  all grapple  checks against them.

*Telepathy (Su):* Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin within 300 feet.

*Trip (Ex)*: A cessirid that hits with a bite attack can attempt to  trip the opponent (+4 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of  opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the  cessirid. 

*Non-Psionic Cessirids*
If you wish to use cessirids in a campaign without psionic powers or the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_,  remove the cessirid's Psionic subtype, substitute spell resistance for  power   resistance, and give them psionics as spell-like abilities.

*Psionics (Sp)*: At will—_dimension door_, _detect thoughts_, _magic missile_, _owl's wisdom_, _phantasmal killer_ (DC 16), _shield_ and _water walk_. Effective caster level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. These abilities replace the cessirid's psi-like psionics.


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## Cleon (Mar 21, 2013)

While writing up the above I noticed a couple of errors in the original 3.0 stats. See the *Corrections to Monsters in the CC*  thread for details.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2013)

The 3.0 CC version isn't too bad of a start, but I might adjust Con up a bit.  I know the Con gives +16 hp, like the original monster, but usually +2 hp/HD in an older edition is worth more in 3.5e.  

Quick psionic conversions: detect thoughts -> read thoughts and dimension door -> dimension door, psionic.  The attack/defense modes just convert to the same powers, but psychic crush and empty mind should be separated.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2013)

freyar said:


> The 3.0 CC version isn't too bad of a start, but I might adjust Con up a bit.  I know the Con gives +16 hp, like the original monster, but usually +2 hp/HD in an older edition is worth more in 3.5e.




Yes, a +16 hp bonus is exceptionally high for AD&D. I'd be game for giving it Con 19.

Alternatively, or in addition, we could give it Unholy Toughness and a higher Charisma.

Hmm, you know it ought to have a better Charisma anyway. A _dimension door_ normally requires a 14+ ability score to cast, so it feels odd for the Cessirid to have it as an at-will SLA with only Charisma 10.



freyar said:


> Quick psionic conversions: detect thoughts -> read thoughts and dimension door -> dimension door, psionic.  The attack/defense modes just convert to the same powers, but psychic crush and empty mind should be separated.




They are separated, just by a / instead of a comma. The 3.0 Attack/Defense format divides the attack powers (_mind thrust, psychic crush_) and defense powers (_empty mind, thought shield_) by the /.

We should just fold them together, anyway. We also need both (Sp) and (Ps) versions, will spell-equivalents instead of psionic powers for the former.

Let's see, how about:

* 3.0 Original*
*Psionics (Sp)*: At will—_body equilibrium_, _detect thoughts_,  _dimension door_, _empty mind_, _mind thrust_, _psychic crush_ and_ thought shield_. These abilities are as the powers manifested by a 6th-level psion.

* Power to Spell Conversions:*
_body equilibrium => water walk*?*_
_detect thoughts => detect thoughts_
_dimension door => dimension door_
_empty mind => owl's wisdom*?*_
_mind thrust => magic missile*?*_
_psychic crush => phantasmal killer__*?*_
_thought shield => shield_*?*

_*Resulting *_*3.5 Update*_*:*_
*Psionics (Sp)*: At will—_dimension door_, _detect thoughts_, _magic missile_, _owl's wisdom_, _phantasmal killer_,_ shield_ and _water walk_. Effective caster level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Plus:

*Psionic Cessirids*
If you are using the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_ and running a  psionic campaign, cessirids gain the psionic subtype, have power  resistance rather than spell resistance, and gain psi-like abilities.

*Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)*: At will—_body equilibrium_, _read thoughts_, _psionic dimension door_, _empty mind_, _mind thrust_, _psychic crush_ and_ thought shield_. These abilities are as the powers manifested by a 6th-level psion. The save DCs are Charisma-based. These abilities replace the cessirid's spell-like psionics.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2013)

I just meant that we should keep them as separate Ps powers, that's all.

Correct me by example if I'm wrong, but we typically do psionic-only versions for psionic critters with Ps abilities unless we have reason to do both versions.  For example, see the rautym and hook spider for somewhat recent examples.  Is there a particular reason you want to do both versions for these?  Given the poor mapping of the powers to spells, I'd probably rather just stick to a psionic version.


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2013)

freyar said:


> I just meant that we should keep them as separate Ps powers, that's all.
> 
> Correct me by example if I'm wrong, but we typically do psionic-only versions for psionic critters with Ps abilities unless we have reason to do both versions.  For example, see the rautym and hook spider for somewhat recent examples.  Is there a particular reason you want to do both versions for these?  Given the poor mapping of the powers to spells, I'd probably rather just stick to a psionic version.




I was just in the mood to figure out an SLA version, like we did with the *Mozgriken* or *Tzakandi* Ceremorphs.

Hmm, we could include the SLA version as an option, I suppose, e.g.:

*Non-Psionic Cessirids*
If you wish to use cessirids in a campaign without psionic powers or the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_, remove the cessirid's psionic subtype, substitute spell resistance for power   resistance, and give them psionics as spell-like abilities.

*Psionics (Sp)*: At will—_dimension door_, _detect thoughts_, _magic missile_, _owl's wisdom_, _phantasmal killer_,_ shield_ and _water walk_. Effective caster level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. These abilities replace the cessirid's psi-like psionics.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2013)

Hmmmm.  These are probably closer to the ceremorphs, so let's do the magic and psionic versions separately.  But I might suggest revising some of the spell equivalencies to unique abilities.  Mind thrust or psychic crush (or both?) could probably be replaced with something like a mind flayer's mind blast.


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2013)

freyar said:


> Hmmmm.  These are probably closer to the ceremorphs, so let's do the magic and psionic versions separately.  But I might suggest revising some of the spell equivalencies to unique abilities.  Mind thrust or psychic crush (or both?) could probably be replaced with something like a mind flayer's mind blast.




A _phantasmal killer_ spell is pretty close to the 3E version of _psychic crush_. I'd be OK considering an alternative to _mind thrust_. I'd be OK considering an alternative to _magic missile_ for _mind thrust_, but it seemed a neat match to the "counter-power" of _shield_ in the proposal.

I'm not keen on spending much time on it, though.

What about the suggestions to increase the Con and/or Cha and possibly add Unholy Toughness to account for the original's high hit points?

There was no mention of Cessirids having especially good saves against poison or the like, so I'm currently leaning towards a higher Charisma plus Unholy Toughness.

Its highest level psionic power is _psychic crush_, which normally requires Cha 15+ to manifest, so I'm thinking maybe Cha 15?

That'd give it an additional 16 hit points with Unholy Toughness.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2013)

Unholy Toughness sounds a bit weird for an aberration without the Evil subtype.  I'm ok with increasing the Cha for other reasons, but I'd prefer to boost the Con for the hp.  As noted above, the +16 hp in the Dragon 150 stats should translate into a boosted Con in 3e terms.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2013)

freyar said:


> Unholy Toughness sounds a bit weird for an aberration without the Evil subtype.  I'm ok with increasing the Cha for other reasons, but I'd prefer to boost the Con for the hp.  As noted above, the +16 hp in the Dragon 150 stats should translate into a boosted Con in 3e terms.




There's nothing particularly evil about the mechanic of "gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier × its Hit Dice", the Unholy in the name is merely a legacy of it first appearing as a HP-boosting power for undead. It'd have been better if the original author had disconnected the ability from morality by calling it "Uncanny Toughness" or something, but they didn't.

Now personally, I'd rather increase their Constitution and Charisma AND give it Unholy Toughness. A +16 hp bonus is extraordinarily high for an AD&D monster.

Now I'd be game to change the name of the ability to something more alignment-neutral. It'd would be a bit confusing to use the same name for an identical power though, so how about adding a wrinkle to it.

How about:

*Uncanny Constitution (Ex):* A cessirid adds its Charisma modifier to its Fortitude save and gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier × its Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2013)

So you're kind of crossing it with Unearthly Grace?  Hmmm.  Tell you what, let's settle on the Con while I think about that proposal.  They are currently at Con 15.  How about Con 21?


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2013)

freyar said:


> So you're kind of crossing it with Unearthly Grace?  Hmmm.  Tell you what, let's settle on the Con while I think about that proposal.  They are currently at Con 15.  How about Con 21?




I'd rather we decided on the Con score and the "Uncanny Toughness" at the same time, since they're interrelated. For that matter, I'd prefer we address the Charisma question simultaneously.

Since the original creature had a +16 bonus, I'd rather the Cessirid had a +4 Con bonus - it just seems neater.

My preference would be this:

*Hit Dice: *8d8+48 (84 hp)
*Saves: *Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +8
*Abilities: *Str 15, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15

*Uncanny Constitution (Ex):* A cessirid adds its Charisma modifier  to its Fortitude save and gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its  Charisma modifier × its Hit Dice.


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## freyar (May 3, 2013)

I'm just not sold on Uncanny Constitution.  There just isn't anything in the original monster that relates to that.  I'd rather just boost the Con a bunch.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'm just not sold on Uncanny Constitution.  There just isn't anything in the original monster that relates to that.  I'd rather just boost the Con a bunch.




It's just that it'd require a very big Con boost to give it something comparable to the original's +4 per die, and there's nothing in the original monster about them being incredibly resilient. It _does_ say they're "shockingly powerful", but I read that as being more about how strong they are, presumably in connection to the original's impressive bite damage of 2-16.

If they had better-than-average saves or something I'd be happier about a large Con boost, but at the moment I prefer Unholy Toughness to explain their high hit points, simply because it doesn't have the other effects of a higher ability score.

Incidentally, that "shockingly powerful" bit is leading me to favour giving them  a higher Strength score and reduce their base bite damage to  counterbalance it. Maybbe Str 19 and a 1d10+6 bite instead of the current Str 15 and 2d8+3?


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## freyar (May 22, 2013)

The original is +2 per HD, right?  8+16?

But my trouble with your logic is mostly that we've dealt with lots of monsters with "+hp" and always taken that to mean a boosted Con rather than a special ability, unless there's something spelled out about their hp (say, HD are always maximized) in the original description.  Besides, your proposed ability makes them more resilient, too (by boosting the Fort save).  

I'm ok with boosting Str and Con, though.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2013)

freyar said:


> The original is +2 per HD, right?  8+16?




Yes that's right. A +16 to hp is highly unusual for AD&D. There are very few monsters with such a high bonus. Off the top of my head I can only think of a few Daemons.



freyar said:


> Besides, your proposed ability makes them more resilient, too (by boosting the Fort save).
> 
> I'm ok with boosting Str and Con, though.




That's why I originally preferred Unholy Toughness to explain their high hit points, but I believe you didn't like it for the Cessirid. The "Uncanny Constitution" was a compromise suggestion.

Although come to think of it, I wouldn't mind giving improving Fort save. Aberrations have poor Fort, but these critters seem physically tough, more like a Magical Beast than a standard Aberration.

Hmm, I wouldn't mind tweaking the "Uncanny Constitution" so it grants a good Fortitude save instead of adding the Cessirid's Charisma modifier to its Fort save, in addition to the extra Cha mod × HD hit points.

Anyhow, what sort of Strength and Constitution scores were you thinking of? It'd help me feel how large the gap between our expectations is.


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## freyar (May 27, 2013)

I previously suggested Con 21, though that's negotiable.  Your suggested Str 19 is ok.  But I still don't like the Uncanny Constitution ability.


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## Cleon (May 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> I previously suggested Con 21, though that's negotiable.  Your suggested Str 19 is ok.  But I still don't like the Uncanny Constitution ability.




Oh heck, this is taking too long. Let's just give it regularly derived hit points and I'll do a Cleon Special™ for the "superior" version.  

I'd rather give 'em Con 18 or 19 for a +4 Con bonus as a homage to the original's +16 hit points (since that works out to a +32 hp bonus with their 8 HD).

So how about:

*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15

*Bite damage:* 1d10+6.


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## freyar (May 29, 2013)

That's fine, though is there a reason you want to reduce the bite damage from 2d8?  Are you just trying to keep the max damage at 16 hp?

Keep the same Dex poison as the 3e CC version?

How about we boost the telepathy range to a round 100 yards?


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2013)

freyar said:


> That's fine, though is there a reason you want to reduce the bite damage from 2d8?  Are you just trying to keep the max damage at 16 hp?




Well I had two motives - (a) I wanted to keep the average damage more or less the same despite the higher Strength and (b) 2d8 seemed an excessively high base damage dice for a Medium sized creature.



freyar said:


> Keep the same Dex poison as the 3e CC version?




I hadn't got that far yet.

The original "yields a -3 penalty to armor class, saving throws, and to-hit rolls) that lasts for 3-12 turns" which suggests the poison causes the sickened effect.

Maybe combine sickened and Dex damage?

Initial damage sickened for 1d10 minutes, secondary damage 1d6 Dex and sickened for 1d2 hours?



freyar said:


> How about we boost the telepathy range to a round 100 yards?




Hmm, the original text says "they can communicate with others of their kind telepathically over distances of up to 24” at no cost to psionic strength", suggesting we shouls limit the telepathy to other Cessirids, but then it goes on to say "they are willing at times to negotiate with other intelligent creatures" which implies they might be able to talk to other beings. I suppose the non-cessirids could be using magic or psionics to talk to them.

300 feet is OK with me if it's OK with you.

Do you want to keep it working with all illilthid-kin, on the assumption that "others of their kind" doesn't only mean Cessirids?

*Telepathy (Su)*: Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin within 300 feet.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2013)

OK, I'll go with the 1d10 base damage.

Yeah, I was just trying to move the conversation along.   Sickened plus 1d6 Dex is a bit stronger than the original damage on average, but I think I could go for that poison.Poison (Ex): Contact, Fortitude save (DC 16); initial damage sickened for 1d10 minutes; secondary damage 1d6 Dex and sickened for 1d2 hours.

I'd at least include all illithid-kin if not all creatures.  You know, it doesn't say they can't talk.  How about we use the telepathy you suggest and let them speak Undercommon?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, I'll go with the 1d10 base damage.
> 
> Yeah, I was just trying to move the conversation along.   Sickened plus 1d6 Dex is a bit stronger than the original damage on average, but I think I could go for that poison.Poison (Ex): Contact, Fortitude save (DC 16); initial damage sickened for 1d10 minutes; secondary damage 1d6 Dex and sickened for 1d2 hours.




Fine by me. Although the poison DC will be 18 due to the increased Con.

Updating *Cessirid Update Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> I'd at least include all illithid-kin if not all creatures.  You know, it doesn't say they can't talk.  How about we use the telepathy you suggest and let them speak Undercommon?




Let's look at the Illithidae in _Lords of Madness_ for comparison.

*Embrac*
Int 4, no languages.

*Kigrid*
Int 7, they "seem to understand most spoken languages (perhaps this is a latent psionic ability)" and speak Undercommon.

*Saltor*
Int 9, speak Undercommon in "barking tone".

Hmm, both of the Illithidae with humanoid-level sentience speak Undercommon, so it makes sense if the Cessirid does too.

How about.

Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin  (illithids and illithidae). Their telepathy can not "speak" to non-illithids, but it does allow them to understand the languages of any intelligent creature. Cessirids can speak Undercommon in a growling, yapping voice.

*Telepathy (Su):* Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin within 300 feet.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2013)

I'll go with that for the language and telepathy.  Any more special abilities?


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll go with that for the language and telepathy.  Any more special abilities?




We're not missing anything from the original monster as far as I can see, although I would like to add a few more tweaks.

Firstly, I think we should increase the CL/ML of the SLA/Psi powers from 6th to 8th, since (a) it matches their HD and (b) it's the minimum CL for a sorcerer to use _phantasmal killer_.

Come to think of it, didn't I suggest that before? I certainly remember intending to.

Secondly, their poison is "Contact" but is delivered by a melee bite, which would normally be an "Injury" poison. 

Presumably that's a reference to the original flavour saying "tentacles around the mouth cause a stinging and burning sensation upon contact with flesh (save vs. poison for each bite that hits; failure yields a -3 penalty to armor class, saving throws, and to-hit rolls) that lasts for 3-12 turns." 

However, the bit before the bracket that I've highlighted in blue implies they don't need to bite or even draw blood to poison an opponent.

Shall we modify the SA so they can poison an opponent by maintaining a grapple or making a touch attack?

Heck, how about we let them use their feeding tentacles to seize & poison foes in combat:

*Attack/Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) or tentacles +10 melee touch (grapple plus poison)

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a cessirid must hit with its tentacles attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and affects its opponent with its poison.

*Poison (Ex)*: Contact or injury, Fortitude save (DC 18); initial damage  sickened for 1d10 minutes; secondary damage 1d6 Dex and sickened for 1d2  hours.

A cessirid's tentacles constantly ooze poison, which trickles back into the illithidae's mouth. Any creature hit by a cessirid's bite must save against this poison. An opponent must also must save against this poison every time a cessirid makes an opposed grapple check against them. The cessirid does not need to win the grapple check, since mere contact is enough to poison its foe.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2013)

I will agree to CL 8.

I like the tentacle touch attack with the poison.  But perhaps it should be a secondary attack.  Imp Grab off a touch attack is fairly nasty.


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2013)

freyar said:


> I will agree to CL 8.
> 
> I like the tentacle touch attack with the poison.  But perhaps it should be a secondary attack.  Imp Grab off a touch attack is fairly nasty.




I'm suggesting a "bite *or* tentacles" full attack, not a "bite *and* tentacles", so surely making it secondary wouldn't make any difference?

Also, a standard grapple uses a touch attack to initialize it, so making an improved grab do the same doesn't seem that big a leap up.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2013)

Making the tentacles secondary takes a -5 penalty to the attack bonus (or -2 if we give them Multiattack) even when made as the only attack.  It would be less effective.  

A standard grapple attempt provokes an AoO.  That's a pretty important difference.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2013)

freyar said:


> Making the tentacles secondary takes a -5 penalty to the attack bonus (or -2 if we give them Multiattack) even when made as the only attack.  It would be less effective.




Oh right, I was just thinking of the damage for some reason, which is irrelevant as the tentacles don't do any.

Multiattack wouldn't be an issue since they don't have the three natural attacks prereq - unless you want to give it to them as a bonus feat.



freyar said:


> A standard grapple attempt provokes an AoO.  That's a pretty important difference.




Yes, I know. I was mentally comparing them to an attacker with Improved Grapple or Snatch, since that seemed a closest match to Improved Grab.

Maybe we should just give them regular Improved Grab and note in the description that it involves seizing their victim with their "mouth tentacles".


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2013)

So are you agreed to giving them a secondary tentacle touch attack that triggers Imp Grab?


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> So are you agreed to giving them a secondary tentacle touch attack that triggers Imp Grab?




So just to be clear, you're favoring the following for both Attack and Full Attack:

Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) or tentacles +5 melee touch (grapple plus poison).

I'm not that keen on it, frankly. If it's evolved to grapple prey with its tentacles I don't see why it wouldn't do so at its full attack, especially if that's the only attack it has that round.

I'd rather cut the tentacles from the attack line and fall back on improved grab, something like:

*Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison)

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a cessirid must hit with a bite or grapple attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free  action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the  grapple check, it establishes a hold with its facial tentacles and affects the opponent with its  poison.


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2013)

Can't a secondary attack be an "and" option in a full attack line?  I would favor

Attack: Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) or tentacles +5 melee touch (grapple plus poison).
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) *and* tentacles +5 melee touch (grapple plus poison).


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2013)

freyar said:


> Can't a secondary attack be an "and" option in a full attack line?  I would favor




Of course it can, I just wasn't sure I liked using that approach for the Cessirid, since the mouth-tentacles seem pretty short. The original description also only describes it using its tentacles to add poison to its bite attack. This grappling business is something we're basically making up out of whole cloth.



freyar said:


> Attack: Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) or tentacles +5 melee touch (grapple plus poison).
> Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) *and* tentacles +5 melee touch (grapple plus poison).




There's no real need to list the tentacles in the Attack Line, since a creature can use a secondary attack as a standard attack if it wants to according to the SRD.

So we'll be giving it a Trip with its bite attack and an Improved Grab with its tentacles then? e.g.:

*Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +10 melee (10d10+6 and poison) and tentacles +5 melee touch (improved grab plus poison)

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a cessirid must hit with  its tentacles attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free  action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the  grapple check, it establishes a hold and affects its opponent with its  poison.

*Poison (Ex)*: A cessirid's mouth-tentacles constantly ooze poison. Any  creature hit by a cessirid's bite or tentacle attacks must save  against this venomous slime. An opponent must also save against a cessirid's poison  every time the illithidae makes an opposed grapple check against them. The  cessirid does not need to win the grapple check, since mere contact is  enough to poison its foe.

_Cessirid Slime:_ Contact or injury, Fortitude save (DC 18); initial  damage  sickened for 1d10 minutes; secondary damage 1d6 Dex and sickened  for 1d2  hours.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2013)

That'll do.


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2013)

freyar said:


> That'll do.




Updating *Cessirid Update Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2013)

OK, all set with special abilities?


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, all set with special abilities?




I believe so.

What red text would you care to deal with next?


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2013)

I think we can give them the psionic subtype, don't you?

I'll agree with your change to alignment and changing the pack to (2-20).

CR is interesting.  They might be almost comparable to the CR 7 succubus, except the succubus has energy drain.  They are probably also a bit worse than a CR 7 aboleth.  CR 6 seems about right.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> I think we can give them the psionic subtype, don't you?
> 
> I'll agree with your change to alignment and changing the pack to (2-20).
> 
> CR is interesting.  They might be almost comparable to the CR 7 succubus, except the succubus has energy drain.  They are probably also a bit worse than a CR 7 aboleth.  CR 6 seems about right.




That all sounds right to me.

Updating *Cessirid Update Working Draft*.

Apart from that, we just need to refigure the Skills & Feats.


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2013)

Looking at the skills, I'm wondering, where does the Jump +10 come from?  Is that an unlisted racial bonus or a special abiilty I'm just not seeing for some reason?

Anyway, we could distribute the 22 ranks as Hide 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 5, Spot 6.  I don't think Jump or Swim necessarily need more.


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## Cleon (Sep 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Looking at the skills, I'm wondering, where does the Jump +10 come from?  Is that an unlisted racial bonus or a special abiilty I'm just not seeing for some reason?




The original's Jump has +2 from Strength and +8 from its 50 ft. speed.

It should now have +12 due to its higher Strength score, but I haven't adjusted it yet.



freyar said:


> Anyway, we could distribute the 22 ranks as Hide 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 5, Spot 6.  I don't think Jump or Swim necessarily need more.




I reckon we ought to give it at least the same skill modifiers as the 3.0 original, which has Hide +9, Jump +7, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Swim +7 plus Alertness.

That works out as skill ranks Hide 6, Jump ?, Listen 4, Move Silently 6, Spot 4, Swim ?, which leaves us with 2 skill ranks in our budget.

Splitting those between Listen and Spot seems to make sense.

Since we're keeping Alertness like the original, that'd mean it has:

*Skills:* Hide +9, Jump +12, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9, Swim +12

Any preferences for the other two skills? I'm thinking we should make one of them a Psionic feat, and maybe Weapon Focus (bite) for the other one.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2013)

Those skills are fine.

Assuming you mean the other 2 *feats* , WF (bite) is ok, and maybe Psionic Weapon would be fun.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2013)

freyar said:


> Those skills are fine.
> 
> Assuming you mean the other 2 *feats* , WF (bite) is ok, and maybe Psionic Weapon would be fun.




I sent the correct word telepathically to test your psionic latency. 

Psionic Weapon is a good idea, but it'd need some ranks in Concentration for it to be much use.

Come to think of it, Concentration would also be useful for its Psi-Like Abilities.

Hmm... 

How about we give it Open Minded plus Psionic Weapon for the two feats, then use the 5 SPs from Open Minded to give it Concentration +9?

A decent Concentration skills seems more useful than another +1 to hit, since its melee attack is already pretty good.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2013)

I'll agree to that!

Did we need to edit description, flavor, or tactics any?


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll agree to that!




Updating *Cessirid Update Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Did we need to edit description, flavor, or tactics any?




I'd like to rearrange it a bit to conform closer to the usual 3.5 _Monster Manual_ layout:

_A pale gray creature shaped like a canine, but its beak and smooth slimy skin show it's no dog. Its large head has oversized eyes as black as pools of ink. Four short tentacles surround its toothless, rending jaws. There are short spines jutting from its back. Its paws are webbed for swimming_.

Cessirids are a form of illithidae analogous to pack hunting canines like wolves or hyenas. Cessirids live in tight-knit packs that use telepathy to cooperate with silent efficiency. The mind flayers have used them as "hounds" for thousands of years.

A cessirid stands roughly 2 feet high at the shoulder and weighs up to 150 pounds.

Cessirids can communicate telepathically with any illithid-kin    (illithids and illithidae). Their telepathy can not "speak" to   non-illithids, but it does allow them to understand the languages of any   intelligent creature. Cessirids can speak Undercommon in a growling,   yapping voice.
​


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2013)

This looks fine, though you have some color tags popping up at the end again.  It's legible this time at least.

Anything else? I'd say they look done if we add the credits.


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2013)

freyar said:


> This looks fine, though you have some color tags popping up at the end again.  It's legible this time at least.




Updating *Cessirid Update Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Anything else? I'd say they look done if we add the credits.




No, I think we're done.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2013)

OK, I'm not sure the "urgency" of the remaining critters for this thread (I think you had some lined up).  Like I mentioned before, I'd like to focus on completing some of our groups of ten, so we can eventually post something to the CC.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> OK, I'm not sure the "urgency" of the remaining critters for this thread (I think you had some lined up).  Like I mentioned before, I'd like to focus on completing some of our groups of ten, so we can eventually post something to the CC.




Well none of those are Psionic monsters, so we might as well let this thread rest for a while.

If you're keen to complete a batch finishing off the "Skinchangers" would seem to be the fastest way, since that batch only has three missing entries.

The Epic Threats batch has two, but monsters of that level take *ages* to convert.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2013)

Cleon said:


> The Epic Threats batch has two, but monsters of that level take *ages* to convert.




Speaking of creatures that are quick to convert, the remaining "Sea Monsters" are pretty straightforward beasts we should (hopefully) be able to finish quickly.

Once we've finished Godfather turtle we could concentrate a bit more on those.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2013)

I'll agree to focusing on those three batches as we finish other stuff up.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll agree to focusing on those three batches as we finish other stuff up.




That's fine with me.


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## Filby (Apr 4, 2015)

It's been three years since I requested it and a year and a half since you finished it, but thanks so much for converting the cessirid, guys! 

I'm not being sarcastic btw, seriously, thank you.


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## Cleon (Apr 5, 2015)

Filby said:


> It's been three years since I requested it and a year and a half since you finished it, but thanks so much for converting the cessirid, guys!
> 
> I'm not being sarcastic btw, seriously, thank you.




You're welcome!

We're slow but sure. Hopefully it was some use to you after all this time.


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## RavinRay (Apr 27, 2015)

Whoa!

I took a break from d20 and RPG and only got back to EN World because I got a PM from someone who created an account just to comment on my homebrew glass dragon! So now I decided to take a look at my old haunts, such as this thread and the dragons conversion thread. I missed the fun of doing conversions!


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2015)

RavinRay said:


> Whoa!
> 
> I took a break from d20 and RPG and only got back to EN World because I got a PM from someone who created an account just to comment on my homebrew glass dragon! So now I decided to take a look at my old haunts, such as this thread and the dragons conversion thread. I missed the fun of doing conversions!




The fun's still going!

You've probably noticed we're in the middle of a CC take on the Mystaran Amber/Brown Gem Dragon at the moment. Feel free to join in.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2015)

Yes, you're always welcome in any conversion you like!


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