# Neverwinter Nights 2!!!



## tylermalan (Oct 27, 2006)

Is everyone as excited as I am about Neverwinter Nights 2 being released on Tuesday?!?!?!  Holla if ya hear me!!!


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## Rackhir (Oct 27, 2006)

Given that it's unlikely to be released for the Mac. No, Not at all.


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## mmu1 (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm cautiously optimistic.

On the one hand, the orginal Neverwinter Nights was - in my opinion (as someone who never had any use for the multiplayer component) - the worst game Bioware had made to date. On the other hand, everything they're saying about NWN II makes it seem like the Obsidian folks decided to learn from that mistake and were putting considerable effort into the single player campaign.

Then again, while I don't doubt the folks at Obsidian have their hearts in the right place, it remains to be seen whether they manage to deliver everything they promised, or let things slip like they did with KotOR II. NWN II has been in development much longer than Sith Lords, so I suppose the chances of it being finished and polished are pretty decent.


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## Thanee (Oct 27, 2006)

Yep, yep. 

Not excited enough to buy the preorder thingie, but I will definitely get it (in fact, I just ordered it ). NWN1 was a truely great game and this will hopefully be at least as good. I don't care, if the graphics are not completely state of the art. As seen with Oblivion, graphics alone don't make for a good game. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 27, 2006)

Tuesday?  HOw much?


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## Rl'Halsinor (Oct 27, 2006)

I'm looking forward to NWN2, but I am goiung to hold off getting it until I read gamer's reports/reviews such as Thanee, mmu1, and the rest of the gang here.  i trust what you have to say far more than any gaming magazine or website.


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## Thanee (Oct 27, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Tuesday?  HOw much?




Well, it costs around €40 here (US Version is €50, but that probably includes some additional taxes), so I guess somewhere between $40 and $50.

Bye
Thanee


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## Taelorn76 (Oct 27, 2006)

I am eager waiting for this. I lost many hours playing the original NW and many of the addons. I am ready to loose many more now.


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## ohGr (Oct 27, 2006)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Then again, while I don't doubt the folks at Obsidian have their hearts in the right place, it remains to be seen whether they manage to deliver everything they promised, or let things slip like they did with KotOR II. NWN II has been in development much longer than Sith Lords, so I suppose the chances of it being finished and polished are pretty decent.



The KotOR II debacle wasn't really Obsidian's fault, though.  LucasArts strong-armed them into releasing it for Christmas ('04, was it?) after a paltry 7 months of development.  When, a month or two after the PC release in February, Obsidian offered to do a content patch to restore the cut content, LA turned them down flat.

With that in mind, i have faith that NWN 2 won't be another KotOR II.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 27, 2006)

Yeah, blame KOTOR2 on Lucas, not Obsidian.

Still, I worry about how well it will run on my PC. I've heard that NWN2 performance is worse than Oblivion. (My PC can run Oblivion okay, but not great)


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## Matchstick (Oct 27, 2006)

I psyched for it, I'll be getting it the day it comes out.  I still play and enjoy the original NWN, so I'm sure this one will be right up my alley.  

I think it ships on Tuesday, which means it would be in stores Wednesday.  I hope I'm wrong though, I'm off on Tuesday!


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## tylermalan (Oct 27, 2006)

Is it really supposed to run higher than Oblivion?  The screenshots don't look THAT great.


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## Greylock (Oct 28, 2006)

Paid for my copy today. The shops won't have it until Wednesday though.

$49.99 American.


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## Thanee (Oct 28, 2006)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Is it really supposed to run higher than Oblivion?  The screenshots don't look THAT great.




If by 'running higher' you mean, be more successful, than I sure hope so. 

Oblivion was way too successful for such a shabby game. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 28, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Still, I worry about how well it will run on my PC. I've heard that NWN2 performance is worse than Oblivion. (My PC can run Oblivion okay, but not great)




According to tests it will run ok (with small resolution and reduced details) on a 2.4~3.0 GHz CPU with 512+ MB RAM and a 6600 GT / 9800 XT / X700 Pro level graphics card.

For decent performance you will need something closer to 3.5~3.8 GHz CPU, 1024 MB+ RAM, 6800 Ultra / X850 GT or better gfx.

For very good performance you need SOTA equipment.

Bye
Thanee


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## Ranger REG (Oct 28, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, it costs around €40 here (US Version is €50, but that probably includes some additional taxes), so I guess somewhere between $40 and $50.



$50?!?!!!! My _PHB_ only cost me $30.

Why they gotta be expensive? They only last three years until _NWN 3._


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 28, 2006)

Is it releasing on schedule?  I'd heard it was delayed until late November.

Guess I'll be pleasantly surprised when my pre-order shows up.


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## KenM (Oct 28, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> $50?!?!!!! My _PHB_ only cost me $30.
> 
> Why they gotta be expensive? They only last three years until _NWN 3._





  You mean like there was only 3 years from 3rd ed. to 3.5?


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## John Crichton (Oct 28, 2006)

The first one was cool but didn't blow me away.  This one looks good but I have 3 new games (Phantasy Star Universe, Marvel: Ultimate Alliance & Final Fantasy XII - on Tuesday) that I'll be busy with.  That and I'll need a new gaming rig (to be purchase in the next 4-6 months) to get the most out of it.  So no new PC games for me until that point.


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## Rl'Halsinor (Oct 28, 2006)

Here is the bottom line: Wait for the Patch.  You just _know_ there will be a need for a patch.  Unfortunately that is the way it works these days.

By the way, will my machine be okay?

2 Gigs of RAM, Athlon 64 3200+ CPU, and an X800 GTO 256mb card with DDR3 RAM.  It is the card I am most concerned about but I'm thinking it should do fine.  What do you think?


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## takyris (Oct 28, 2006)

Two points, in re mmu1:



			
				mmu1 said:
			
		

> On the one hand, the orginal Neverwinter Nights was - in my opinion (as someone who never had any use for the multiplayer component) - the worst game Bioware had made to date. On the other hand, everything they're saying about NWN II makes it seem like the Obsidian folks decided to learn from that mistake and were putting considerable effort into the single player campaign.




Your opinion is, I think (as somebody who works there), totally correct. If you didn't want or need multiplayer, the single player campaign was a letdown. The really cool thing about it is that it works with multiple players, so everyone can do all the quests (well, most of 'em) and such... but that by necessity makes it less epic, and makes it nigh-impossible for the focus to be on you. (A rare Jedi, the last Spirit Monk, etc.)

That said, when BioWare realized how few people were using NWN for multiplayer, they tried to correct that with Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark. I personally am not in love with the follower stuff the way that I am with the followers on BG2 or KotOR, but the storyline of the campaigns for SoE and HotU are  (in my opinion) a ton stronger. (And while I work there, I had nothing to do with any of those games. I have no credits. I am new.)



> Then again, while I don't doubt the folks at Obsidian have their hearts in the right place, it remains to be seen whether they manage to deliver everything they promised, or let things slip like they did with KotOR II. NWN II has been in development much longer than Sith Lords, so I suppose the chances of it being finished and polished are pretty decent.




This is my source of concern, as somebody who really wants NWN2 to succeed. I came to BioWare because I love playing their games, and Obsidian is the only other company who makes games that way.

It's fair to say that it's Lucas's fault and not Obsidian's, but at the end of the day, Obsidian released the game. They were not able to tell a powerful company to sit back and wait until the game was really done. That doesn't make it Obsidian's fault -- I've got friends who worked on KotOR II, and I know how much they hated releasing it like that -- but it does beg the question: did they stand up to Atari they way they didn't stand up to Lucas?


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## Rl'Halsinor (Oct 28, 2006)

As I have read it over the past few years, game makers are at the mercy of game publishers because the publishers hold the purse strings and whoever has the money has the final say.  

Troika was forced by Atari to release that mess called The Temple of Elemental Evil long before it was ready.  Just check the Atari forums and look at the Temple of Elemental Evil forum and look up the massive amount of bugs that game had.  Troika knew it wasn't ready but Atari released it anyway.  And to top it off Atari was reluctant to release an official patch and when they did it was far from being able to fix all the bugs.

There was need for another patch, but Atari resisted and the second one was actually done by a Troika employee in his spare time!  Yet that still didn't resolve all the issues.  It took a third patch from the fansite Circle of Eight to straighten out this travesty.


Now here is the thing for me: I will wait to see how NWN2 plays because the publisher is none other than Atari and Atari is in extreme trouble over cash flow.  The New York Stock Exchange removed them because they were deemed no longer viable as a public trade company.  That is bad news.

Could Atari be pushing the release of this game because of their desperate need for cash?  Christmas is coming and it is the time when more money is made than all the other months combined.  I hope I am wrong, but with Atari I have my suspicions.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 28, 2006)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Could Atari be pushing the release of this game because of their desperate need for cash?  Christmas is coming and it is the time when more money is made than all the other months combined.  I hope I am wrong, but with Atari I have my suspicions.




Well regardless of whether Atari needs money or not, it would be silly not to push for it to be out by XMas.  By all reports, NWN2 is pretty well done and tested.  Passing up the extra income from the XMas season would be foolhardy, from a business standpoint.

What "people", and by that I mean the online community, are clamoring about is the lack of th DM Client, which is not complete as I understand it.  Since that has very little to do with the way the majority of the people will be playing the game in the short-term (single-player), that has been excluded from the initial release.  Some people feel that Obsidian/Atari should delay the game just to get that in.  Obviously I'm not one of those people, if you couldn't tell.   

[edit] Oh, actually on topic, I'll be picking up my copy Tuesday morning so I have plenty of time to play before Halloween parties.


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## mmu1 (Oct 28, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> It's fair to say that it's Lucas's fault and not Obsidian's, but at the end of the day, Obsidian released the game. They were not able to tell a powerful company to sit back and wait until the game was really done. That doesn't make it Obsidian's fault -- I've got friends who worked on KotOR II, and I know how much they hated releasing it like that -- but it does beg the question: did they stand up to Atari they way they didn't stand up to Lucas?




Well, it certainly is an unenviable position, but while something might not be your fault (like KotOR II not being Obsidian's) when all's said and done you still can be responsible for it.

It was like that with poor late Troika Studios... They had their share of publisher woes, but they also had an ongoing quality control issue, and kept on putting out good (or even great - I love Vampire: Bloodlines, and while they were at Black Isle at the time, the original Fallout was made by the guys who started Troika) that weren't as solid as they should have been.

I'm hoping this won't be the case with NWN II, and considering that they're releasing it two months shy of Christmass and there are no major titles that might compete with it in the near future (Gothic just isn't big enough in the US) I don't think there's any indication that it is being rushed.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 28, 2006)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Is it really supposed to run higher than Oblivion?  The screenshots don't look THAT great.




Well, according to a very long time and well regarded reviewer (who has a review copy), both of those statements are true.  

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=30106&page=3


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## Steel_Wind (Oct 28, 2006)

I've been privvy to a fair number of the details on NWN2 for a while. 

Without saying anything specific, I am looking forward to its release very much and my expectations for its success are higher than with the first NWN1.

The issues with respect to system requirements are problematic for some, no doubt.  I ordered my new NWN2 machine yesterday, as it happens. I didn't shirk on it and went bleeding edge, as most of us at DLA have done or are in the process of doing.  Developing for such a game requires it.

The thing to remember with NWN1 is that the shelf life of the game is far greater than is expected of any other PC release. The first game was played (and continues to be) nearly four and a half years after release.  The last commerical release of an NWN1 module was *last month*, after all.

That is an amazing period of time for a game. While you might think a repeat for the second game of a shelf duration that long is a little optomistic - three years certainly isn't.

And so Obsidian, recognizing this and appreciating that greatly improved graphics are important to the game's success, has left room in the engine to grow and to remain current over a much longer period of time that was the case with the first game. In two to three years time, it is hoped that NWN2 will not look as dated as NWN1 did during the same passage of time.

Having run the team that pushed the graphical limits of NWN1 farther than probably anyone else, it's a welcome "slack" open to us to expand on over time.

The system requirements for the game are high, but if you turn down the eye candy and don't attempt to run a per pixel lit game at high resolutions, the game should run tolerably well on the systems noted in this thread.

And when you upgrade your system at some point in the next while (whether next week, next month or next year or two) you can dial uip the eye candy and it will look even better.  And yes, the lighting engine in NWN2 is even more sophisticated and demanding at the high end than Oblivion's.

A game to grow with, as it were. After all, isn't that what we all expect of D&D over the years?


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## trancejeremy (Oct 29, 2006)

Oh yeah, it should be built for high end computers (and the future). But what worries me is the performance and graphics on low/medium end computers.  My original point was that supposedly it's more taxing than Oblivion, but doesn't deliever graphics better than Oblivion, but worse.

Sorta like the latest Flight Simulator.  If you have a medium (or low) end computer, the graphics are worse than FS 2004, but the performance is also terrible.  And apparently Gothic 3 as well. So it seems to be a trend.

But then again, whether or not that's true with NWN2, I dunno. I only have the word of one reviewer. Who has a pretty good track record, but still is just one person.


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## Steel_Wind (Oct 29, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, it should be built for high end computers (and the future). But what worries me is the performance and graphics on low/medium end computers.  My original point was that supposedly it's more taxing than Oblivion, but doesn't deliever graphics better than Oblivion, but worse.




I don't agree. Much of what NWN2 can deliver is on par with Oblivion.

The systems behind each are very different though. Oblivion pretends to be a world - but it isn't. There are few creatures ever on screen at once. Its spell system is not as complicated as NWN2's and its dialog and cutscene engine are not as powerful.

You need to appreciate that Oblivion is - at heart - a FPS / over the shoulder shooter style action rpg.  It spends its graphic power on a few critters at once. NWN2's needs to spread the polygons around over more.  The lighting engine in NWN2 is more powerful - that is not in doubt.

As for how cool the models and textures can be made to look??

Wait a bit


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## Thanee (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm reasonably sure, that NWN2 beats the gfx of the game I am currently playing. 

Bye
Thanee


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## ohGr (Oct 29, 2006)

^ Ah, Shadowrun; i really loved that game.  The memory battery on my copy died out last year, making it pretty darn hard to play anymore.


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## Thanee (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm using an emulator on my PC (also have the original ROM, but never played it, since I do not have an SNES ).

Bye
Thanee


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## Cergorach (Oct 29, 2006)

Steel, what kind of setup did you get? Are you going to use a dual monitor setup for development? If so, what kind of vidcard(s) are you using?


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## Steel_Wind (Oct 29, 2006)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Steel, what kind of setup did you get? Are you going to use a dual monitor setup for development? If so, what kind of vidcard(s) are you using?




CPU: E6600 Core 2 Duo
Mobo: ASUS P5N32-SLI Premium (w/ NForce 590 chipset.  This mobo was just released and differs from the Deluxe version which does not use the 590 chipset.)
RAM: 2 x1 GB OCZ DDR2 800 RAM
Video: eVGA 7950GX2 
Sound: Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic
Seagate (16mb) Sata II 320 HD 
Sonata II case with 450 watt ps

For monitors I have been using a Dell 2005 FPW as my main monitor for about a year now. I grabbed an Acer AL1916AB 19" LCD Panel as a secondary panel. This was not much more $$ than a 17" panel or I would have just got a 17" as a secondary monitor.  Yes, for serious development, the NWN2 toolset cries out for a second monitor - but a 17" will do and so will any old CRT you have lying around if your desk will allow it to fit. 

7950GX2 SLI will not drive 2 monitors in SLI mode, and the secondary display automatically turns off when you use SLI. 

I splurged on the motherboard which hit the market only this month and supports Quad SLI with another 16xPCIE slot for a physics card should I feel the need. I went with the eVGA 7950 as I might want to pick another one up next year and I wanted to play it a little safe with the choice of my vid card manufacturer.  

If I was to buy a new "primary" monitor, I would probably have grabbed the Acer AL2216WBD 22" Wide-Screen LCD Panel --- 5ms - 1680x1050. It's about the equivalent of the Dell and the price is a lot lower than a Dell 2005FPW or 2007WFP (current equivalent Dell model).

With a 1680x1050 monitor, I felt that a 7950GX2 was necessary to drive it at that resolution with a decent frame rate and all eye candy on. If you are just going to run the game at 1024x768 or at 1280x1024, you would be much better off getting a single eVGA 7900GTO video card if you can find one. The 7900GTO was a limited release card with *slightly* slower memory designed to dump NVidia's flagship 7900GTX cores they had in stock to make way for the DX10 cards hitting the market in the next few months. The 7900GTO is a 7900GTX for $253.  The are sold out just about everywhere though but if you can find one they are the best value on the market right now. I could not find one from anyplace that ships to Canada so I got 7950GX2. If I could have found the 7900GTO, I would have ordered two of those instead.

Release of the new 8800 core DX10 cards will be available in the USA via NewEgg around November 8. They will not show up in Canada until January, however, and I was not prepared to wait that long. You might consider getting one of these instead.

If not, the 7950GT is also a fine choice if you are not running NWN2 at high resolutions or not being overly concerned about frame rate and  if you do.


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## Agamon (Oct 29, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I'm reasonably sure, that NWN2 beats the gfx of the game I am currently playing.




Heh, at first glance at the thumbnail, I thought, "Is that Paperboy??"


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## Tokiwong (Oct 29, 2006)

I probably will get it eventually


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## Ranger REG (Oct 29, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> You mean like there was only 3 years from 3rd ed. to 3.5?



Exactly! WotC figured "let's follow videogame sales model." And they're right! We have more Gullibles in our own fan community than in the MMORPG and iPod communities combined.


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## Banshee16 (Oct 30, 2006)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Is everyone as excited as I am about Neverwinter Nights 2 being released on Tuesday?!?!?!  Holla if ya hear me!!!




It's on preorder....very much looking forward to it.

If it's as big an improvement over NWN 1 as BG2 was over BG2, it'll be pretty cool.  All I know is that I played NWN1 to death.....the single player was....lacking, but I really enjoyed the multiplayer component.

Banshee


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## takyris (Oct 30, 2006)

Minor note: Anyone head over to Gamebanshee's weapon-and-armor-making preview?

http://www.gamebanshee.com/editorials/nwn2diary1.php



			
				Game Designer said:
			
		

> With complete weapons like bows – where bits and pieces can’t really be swapped out – there are usually multiple models to swap between, and basically EVERY weapon model in the game is tintable. This means that for longbows, I have no less than five models to choose from, and three tints to play around with on top of this, allowing you to set the appearance of your bow in just a handful of clicks.




Wow! That's fantastic! This really is a step up from NWN! I mean, five different bow models and three tints! That's a whole 15 different bow possibilities! What could cruddy old Neverwinter Nights do?

Well, let's see... 8 versions of Top, 8 versions of Middle, 8 versions of Bottom, and 4 different tints for each section. That'd be 8x4 x 8x4 x 8x4.

I'm not really a math person, but is 32^3 more or less than 15?

I'm not saying the bows were beautiful. I'm sure the new bows are going to be better looking. But if the game designer is trying to sell us on the awesome flexibility of the NWN2 weapon system, it might help them to remember that a few people who buy and play NWN2 actually remember NWN.

If you're going to snow us with a sales pitch disguised as a diary, at least put a little effort into it.


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## Thanee (Oct 30, 2006)

But that's just for longbows... 

Bye
Thanee


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## takyris (Oct 30, 2006)

Hey, I'd be happy to do the math for shortbows, too. 

The thing is, I'd have no problem if the point of the article was, "Yeah, fewer possibilities, but they look better, and it's easier to get something that's easy on the eyes." That's a valid selling point. It's using "selling points" that were actually done better in NWN that boggles my mind.

Don't get me wrong -- I'll still be buying it (probably sometime next year when my computer has been upgraded). I'm just a bit confused by what they've chosen to use as their selling points. And I really really hope that *this* Obsidian product has an ending and the strong story they promised.


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## Mycanid (Oct 30, 2006)

Well ... I am looking forward to this critter too, but I think will wait a little bit for patch releases and bug fixes before going ahead and getting it. Standard policy for me, though.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 30, 2006)

Hmmmm, it does seem like you can change parts about for other weapons.



> Certainly there are multiple models to choose from: but multi-part weapons such as swords and axes can actually have multiple models in one weapon, allowing the user to put together different heads/hafts/grips for their hackin’ instrument of choice. Gretchen’s greatsword started out all using the same model set, then the blade and pommel models were swapped to create a new look for the weapon. Tints were set after this, and in just a few moments one has a sword fit for hacking all kinds of various and sundry critters, and looking crazy impressive whilst doing so.


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## takyris (Oct 30, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, it does seem like you can change parts about for other weapons.




Indeed. That wasn't the part of her post that bothered me.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 30, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> Indeed. That wasn't the part of her post that bothered me.




Then I don't get your point.  Just because one aspect of the game (Bows) is less customizable than the original NWN, NWN2 is some sort of failure?


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## takyris (Oct 30, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Then I don't get your point.  Just because one aspect of the game (Bows) is less customizable than the original NWN, NWN2 is some sort of failure?




I didn't say that NWN2 is a failure. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I said that putting up a diary post talking about how awesome and configurable weapon creation for that particular weapon is when, in fact, that particular weapon is less configurable than it was in NWN1, is either dishonest or stupid.

Bows used to have 32^3 possible configurations. Now they have 15. If you'd like to put down money on the chance that bows are the *only* weapons to be less configurable, appearance-wise, than they were in NWN1, I'd take that bet.

It's not a deal-breaker for me -- I don't think having fewer longbow configurations will kill the game for anybody -- but as a game designer's diary, it was either dishonest or stupid. Don't make configurability one of your big selling points when you're offering less configurability than the previous game. In business terms, that'd be a "duh".

It's not the longbows. It's the spirit behind the big sales pitch regarding the longbows.

And again... I'll be happy if they just have an ending this time.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Oct 31, 2006)

Could someone please tell me if I can run NWN2 (with reasonably low details) on this system:

Intel Pentium M 1.70 Ghz
1 gig RAM
ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 Pro Turbo

For what its worth, I managed to run Oblivion ok.

Thanks.


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## LrdApoc (Oct 31, 2006)

Vicar,

It'll run but not with all the bells and whistles... which who cares about if the story and gameplay are good?


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## Matchstick (Oct 31, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> I didn't say that NWN2 is a failure. Please don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> I said that putting up a diary post talking about how awesome and configurable weapon creation for that particular weapon is when, in fact, that particular weapon is less configurable than it was in NWN1, is either dishonest or stupid.
> 
> ...




I think what TJeremy is talking about is the kind of extreme reaction you seem to be having to this.  They're talking up their product, trying to get people excited and promote sales, why is that different from any other product?  I don't read a sales pitch thinking to myself "boy I sure hope they give me an unbiased view of their product".  Nor do I react really at all if the view does (as it always does) come across as biased.  It's the nature of the beast.

That said, looking at the link you posted I don't see anything comparing the NWN2 system to the NWN system.  And it's perfectly possible to have an "awesome and configurable weapon creation" system even if there's something out there that's better.  

Of course YMMV, this is all subjective.  That kind of thing means pretty much nothing to me.  I couldn't care less about the graphics, I just want the gameplay.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Oct 31, 2006)

> Vicar, It'll run but not with all the bells and whistles... which who cares about if the story and gameplay are good?



Amen.


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## takyris (Oct 31, 2006)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> I don't read a sales pitch thinking to myself "boy I sure hope they give me an unbiased view of their product".  Nor do I react really at all if the view does (as it always does) come across as biased.  It's the nature of the beast.




See, sales-y I've got no problem with. What tweaked me in that design diary was, as I said, sales-y about something that wasn't as good as the previous game. Sell me on the graphics. Sell me on the single-player story. Sell me on (I'm hoping) deeper and flashier combat animations for all weapon styles. Don't sell me on something that is actually a downgrade.



> That said, looking at the link you posted I don't see anything comparing the NWN2 system to the NWN system.  And it's perfectly possible to have an "awesome and configurable weapon creation" system even if there's something out there that's better.




Do you see a difference between "something out there that's better" and "the four-year-old game for which this game is a sequel"? I like to assume that a sequel will be an improvement over the original in many areas, and at least EQUAL to the original in the rest.

But I'm getting that I'm mostly alone in being annoyed with this. And that's fine. Like I said, it wasn't the bows. It was the idea that we should be impressed by the bows, when in fact the four-year-old game with the same engine did it better.


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## Kaodi (Oct 31, 2006)

I won't be able to run it on high with my X700 256, but I have enough RAM I should make out OK. As long as the graphics are better than NWN 1, that's enough for me for now, hehehe... 

Also, what kind of power supply do you have on your new rig, Steel Wind? And fan? I have a Sonata II, yet it has always been a lot louder than I thought it should be. Also... be careful with the filter... I accidently busted the tabs on it before I figured out how to get the damn thing out. I should order a new one...


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## JRRNeiklot (Oct 31, 2006)

I still have the same pc I upgraded just to play NWN when it was released.  I had waited for the release of that game since BG1 when I was told I could transfer my character over.  :-(  Sadly, after spending over 400 bucks for Ram, cpu, mainboard and graphics card, I was underimpressed with NWN.  I'm another of those that have no interest in the multiplayer aspect of it.  The story was lame, the npc scheme was completely idiotic and the 3d graphics looked like crap compared to the wonderful 2d worlds of BG and BG2.  So, I'm not upgrading anything for this game, and I'll have to try it at a friends house somewhere before I'm shelling out any cash for it.

That said, how will it run on my P4 2.4 ghz, 1 gig RAM, Raedon 8500 LE?  I have noticed my video card is not officially supported.  :-(


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## LrdApoc (Oct 31, 2006)

Grrr.. venting here sorry but I just spoke with my preorder store - they said they did not get it.. and then I get a press release stating that Atari is *Shipping* the game today not *releasing* it today.. grr.. this industry makes me so frustrated sometimes.

Guess I have to wait another day.. but the doublespeak kills me.


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## mmu1 (Oct 31, 2006)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Grrr.. venting here sorry but I just spoke with my preorder store - they said they did not get it.. and then I get a press release stating that Atari is *Shipping* the game today not *releasing* it today.. grr.. this industry makes me so frustrated sometimes.
> 
> Guess I have to wait another day.. but the doublespeak kills me.




I'm considering getting it from Direct2Drive, so I can play it today... The only downside is that the D2D games often don't accept the standard patches, so if there are any bugs, you need to wait for them to make one specifically for the downloadable version.

Of course, I _could_ download it, then pick up my preorder tomorrow, and simply transfer over the saves... Mhmm... $45 vs. waiting an extra 24 hours. A little under $2 per hour...


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 31, 2006)

The 8500LE is about as fresh as a Foghat concert.


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## Rl'Halsinor (Oct 31, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The 8500LE is about as fresh as a Foghat concert.




Foghat concert?!          Flexor you are really dating yourself!       And me as well...


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## KenM (Oct 31, 2006)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Grrr.. venting here sorry but I just spoke with my preorder store - they said they did not get it.. and then I get a press release stating that Atari is *Shipping* the game today not *releasing* it today.. grr.. this industry makes me so frustrated sometimes.
> 
> Guess I have to wait another day.. but the doublespeak kills me.




  Thats standard with video/ computer games. The day the company gives is the ship date, in stores next day.


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## LrdApoc (Nov 1, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats standard with video/ computer games. The day the company gives is the ship date, in stores next day.




Yeah I kow Ken but the issue is the inconcistancies between publishers... some its a street date... some its a shipping date. Gamestop showed it as street two days ago and now it appears to have always been a ship date - they changed the website today as well to reflect that damn it!


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## Allura (Nov 1, 2006)

It's on preorder, but I can only meet recommended specs on my laptop, so I may be mooching DH's desktop for a bit.   I've nick-named it the 1K game, since I have to buy an entire machine, not just a video card (which is the only part failing to meet the specs).

FYI, if you want to check your machine for most games, try this site: http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/referrer/srtest . It runs a little applet for the game of your choice that I've found useful lately.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 1, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats standard with video/ computer games. The day the company gives is the ship date, in stores next day.




It really depends a lot, though. For major releases, a lot of times it's actually shipped ahead to a store ahead of time, with a street date for it's sale (like books and cds and movies).  I've never understood the reason why, maybe to save on shipping, because all it really does is give the game to pirates (who get it as soon as they show up in stores, as employees presumably borrow a copy or two) while buyers have to wait.

NWN2 went gold a couple weeks ago (maybe longer), which is generaly more than enough time to get them manufacturered (usually a week), so it's surprising it's a ship date, not street date.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 1, 2006)

IGN has some first impressions

http://pc.ign.com/articles/742/742913p1.html

Sounds like they focused a lot more on the single player campaign than in the original (which I had heard, but nice to see it confirmed)


----------



## El Ravager (Nov 1, 2006)

Well, I'm not happy about this release date thing.  I had nothing to do today and was planning on playing some rpg vidoegame.

I work in receiving at a Target store.  Both Final Fantasy 12 and NWN2 were listed as 10/31 releases.  We got FF12 last friday.  We still don't have NWN2.

Guess which of the two I was wanting to play....  =/


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## Banshee16 (Nov 1, 2006)

My copy's sitting at EB, for when I get off work....perfect!

Banshee


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## JRRNeiklot (Nov 1, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The 8500LE is about as fresh as a Foghat concert.




Hey, it may be a slow ride, but I enjoy it.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 2, 2006)

Gamespot has a review

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/review.html

Pretty high score, but gave it a 6 for graphics, and commented that the hardware requirements are very steep yet the game is fairly ugly, even on high end computers...


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## mmu1 (Nov 2, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Gamespot has a review
> 
> http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/review.html
> 
> Pretty high score, but gave it a 6 for graphics, and commented that the hardware requirements are very steep yet the game is fairly ugly, even on high end computers...




You know, I read Gamespot to keep track of new releases, but a lot of their rating system is pure nonsense. (or, at the least, they don't do a very good job of explaining what their ratings mean)

For example, they'll sometimes review a game for the PC, XBox and PS2, and give all versions the same score for graphics... even when quite clearly, the game looks vastly better when running on a PC with a high-end Nvidia or ATI card than on the several year old consoles.

Or they'll do something like give the original NWN - which was ugly as sin, even in 2002 - an 8 for graphics, but stick NWN2 with a 6 because it's not Oblivion. (a 6 is the same graphics score that Marvel Ultimate Alliance for the PS2 just got)

The graphics might not be the high point of this game, but they're serviceable, and fairly detailed... I've had no complaints so far, any my characters are only level 5 - I expect they'll be a lot more interesting at higher levels and in more exotic locations.


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## Scorch (Nov 2, 2006)

*First Impressions!*

Hmm, first impressions both good and bad in no particular order:

1)  Loaded up fine.  Could not run the patch initially since their servers were swamped.  It is 87 MB in size and I was able to get it later on the laptop.   The patch corrects some nuisance errors as well as added a beta of the DM Client and some extra content (spells, etc).

2)  The multiplayer uses your old Bioware account (or you can create a new one, it is pretty easy to do so).  Nothing but Official Content games with a few exceptions out on line at the moment.

3)  The game detected my setup but defaulted to a 4:3 ratio screen so I had to change that to a 16:9 ratio which was easy enough.  The game can switch resolutions without rebooting which is nice.  This may seem like a no-brainer but there are still games out there that require a reboot when you do this (cough cough City of Heroes cough).

4)  Character creation was straightforward.  I feel like there should be a few more choices for appearance customization but I think CoH has spoiled me on that.  It probably has just as much customization as WoW.

5)  The tutorial:  unless you count my familiar, NOT A RAT IN SIGHT.  They refamiliarize you with the interface and game mechanics pretty quickly in a no pressure environment.  One thing that I noticed was the inclusion of Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing.  For some reason that amused me...

6)  Graphics: look pretty up close but I usually hover a little over the shoulder and fifty feet in the air so I get a tactical map of what is going on around me so I lose a lot of detail.  This is more my play style than the game's fault.

7)  The camera controls are a little wiggy but that is NWN in general.  The * on num keypad cycles through four preset camera angles but I have not had a chance to play with them yet.

8)  Combat:  Does feel a little sluggish but patch 1.01 supposedly addresses this as they admit that there is a few milliseconds pause when issuing a command and it actually executes.  Will re-address my thoughts on this later after a few more sessions.  I found myself hitting the space bar, queuing up commands, unpausing, then watching my best laid plans go horribly, horribly wrong.

9)  Grouping:  You can have up to three "companions" in your group, not counting familiars and summoned creatures.  You can control their advancement but only to a limited extent.  The fighter you can only advance in fighter levels.  One cannot start multi-classing him to rogue for example but you do control stats, feats, skills, etc.  I assume that as levels advance you will have the option for Prestige Classes open up for them.  You seem to have full paper doll control on them.  

10)  Prestige Classes:  there are a lot of them.

11)  Overall performance. I had to turn down my resolution from 1680x1050 to 1440x900 on the desktop to get rid of a little chop.  Other than that it seemed fine to me with no chop during combat with lots of stuff happening on screen (Hey, look!  A Githyanki mage!!!).

Right now I am rating this a solid B+ to A-.  I understand the OC story is actually pretty good but time will tell.  So far I have yet to see anything that disappoints me. 

My system specs:

AMD64 3400
2 GB of RAM
NVidia 7800 GS AGP Video Card (probably what is restricting me the most, gotta go PCIX).

Scorch out.


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## mmu1 (Nov 2, 2006)

Scorch said:
			
		

> 11)  Overall performance. I had to turn down my resolution from 1680x1050 to 1440x900 on the desktop to get rid of a little chop.  Other than that it seemed fine to me with no chop during combat with lots of stuff happening on screen (Hey, look!  A Githyanki mage!!!).




This reminds me of something... It's not that _you're_ complaining, or anything, but over the last few years I've seen tons of people moan about having to play (various games) at 1024x768 as if it was 320x200, or something - whereas I've always viewed 1024x768 as the highest practical resolution I'd want to run most games at. If I have processing power to spare at that point, then there's stuff like model and texture quality, shadows, lighting, bloom, AA, and so on that can be cranked up, and will do more for graphics quality than increasing the resolution... Hell, some of the expectations people seem to have would be unrealistic with dual $500, 512MB graphics cards.

Though given that we appear to have the same graphics card, perhaps that means I ought to crank up the graphics in NWN2 a bit, rather than simply letting it auto-detect. (Even if I only have 1 Gig of RAM, which I'm sure will restrict things more than on your system)


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## Matchstick (Nov 2, 2006)

My mini review (mini because I have only played for a couple hours so take all of this with that grain of salt):

*Install*

The install was fine.  I thought it was kind of a good idea that they prompt you for registration at the beginning of the install, so you can be registering while the program is installing.  The install is about 6.6 gig I think.  It does require the newest DirectX and .NET Framework 2.0, and will install (with prompts) either of those things that are missing.  I'm assuming on the DirectX, as I had the newest.  I got the DVD, it's one DVD and you get another disc with a seven day trial for D&D Online.

There is a patch already (I don't think that's a bad thing BTW).  It's 85 megs or so.  I did Update right away from the menu and found it.


*Character Creation*

I think they did well here too, though there are things that could have been done better.  In NWN for example you would pick Weapon Focus and then it would give you another menu to pick the weapon.  Here they list out every weapon in the same feat list.  Add in every skill focus listed separately and it makes for a list that's WAY too long.  Your character's appearance is only slightly more adaptable than NWN.  They use a 32 point buy system for scores, and there are background traits, though the ones I saw didn't seem to match the ones I've seen elsewhere (I don't remember seeing "Ladies Man" for example).  I didn't notice that til later, so there may be more to that and I just missed it.  When I looked all of the traits had drawbacks, so I didn't take one.

There is one new (for NWN) base character class called the Warlock, which looks really interesting.  It's the magic user that uses magic almost exclusively, having unlimited ranged eldritch bolts to work with, and unlimited incantations per day somehow (not sure how that works as I don't have 3.5).  There are a bunch of new races and subraces to choose from: three kinds of dwarves, four kinds of elves, two kinds of gnomes, two kinds of halflings, aasimar, and tieflings.  All have different abilities and some have level adjustments as well.  There are sixteen prestige classes to choose from.


*Graphics*

You know, right now I like the old graphics better.  These are certainly dogs, they want some big old machine to run them.  My machine isn't great, but it's not bad by any means, and the default setting it put me at was jumpy.  I've lowered it, but it wanted to restart and I didn't, so I'll see what it's like tonight.  The characters don't fit into the background as well as they did in NWN, they look like they're in front of a green screen and the background is projected (i.e. they have sort of outlines around them) sometimes, and sometimes they clip into the scenery (like sinking to their ankles in a hill or bank).  I suppose it's possible that since I'm running on lower settings that's why it doesn't look as good.  I wish I knew what I'd have to do to make it look better, I just can't see going to a 256 Mb card as making that much difference, and I'm not going to spend to get a 512.  Oh, there's an NVidia logo here too, argh.  I know what my next card will be.

The four person party looks especially silly moving around the map.  I think it's the running animations, some of which are just not very good.

I've read that their goal here was to make a system with a very high graphics upper end, so that when people are playing this two or three years down the line the graphics will still be as current as they can be.  I think that's a great idea, but I think they made a mistake not making the low settings work on low enough machines.  If they limit their audience now, there are fewer people that will be playing two or three years down the line.

The cutscenes weren't impressive either, though I admit they grew on me as I played into the game more.  There's a lot of them in the tutorial.  Voice acting has been all over the map, with some of it laugh out loud bad, some very good, and one that even started bad and is now good.  

For me the graphics are the least impressive part of the game, by a pretty large margin.


*Tutorial/Interface*

The tutorial is pretty good.  It has an OK story, and is well laid out to get you used to working with a party of four characters.  There's nothing mysterious about it, you shouldn't be wandering around too much wondering what to do, and that's good in a tutorial.  They cover a wide amount of the basic pieces of the interface and play.  The only thing I ran into here was that the last couple pop ups in the tutorial (you know, they pop up a window to tell you what you need to do, and how to do it) were blank, no content in them at all.  Not sure what the deal was there.

I was third level at the end (or what I assume was the end) of the tutorial.

The interface is OK, but again I'm not sure why they changed it from NWN, and I'm not sure it's an improvement.  The map is up by default, which is fine (I left it up in NWN), but the character screen doesn't seem as interesting to me.  So far it doesn't work badly, or even just OK.  It's a good interface, it will work fine once I'm used to it, but right now I'm not sure why they bothered to change it.  Maybe for higher resolutions or something.  I did have one problem with it; when I leveled to third level I clicked on my character to level him, but wound up with the portrait of one of the other characters in the party.  It was benign, it just threw me for a second.

Combat is pretty much the same, click to attack.  There are hotkeys for a lot of things of course, I think I'll wind up using those more with this interface.  The camera seems OK, I haven't had any really big problems with it.  


*Gameplay*

I admit it.  I was in "one more thing" mode at the end of the evening, and that can only be a very good thing.  It's been a while since I've been there.  Parts of the plot have already revealed themselves, but there's been a couple of surprises as well.  I'd say the gameplay is looking very very good.  And as long as I like that I'll be happy.

There's a pretty wide variety of AI options for the party members.  Some of which made it into NWN, some of which I think are new.  All are set in the character's properties, not through conversation.



That's pretty much all I can think of.  Right now it's looking very good to me, just because I have that "just a little more" feeling from it.  Quite frankly though, I think there's a lot here NOT to like.  Especially in the graphics, which don't at all justify to me the requirements they seem to have.

I can try and answer any specific questions people have.


----------



## Henry (Nov 2, 2006)

Question: Does anyone by chance have a link to a downloadable version of the patch other than using the in-game updater? I have it installed at home, where I have a dial-up connection, but I can download from work, where I have a T1. Anyone have a link to the english patch I might use? It's currently still not available on Atari's site.


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## Scorch (Nov 2, 2006)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> This reminds me of something... It's not that _you're_ complaining, or anything, but over the last few years I've seen tons of people moan about having to play (various games) at 1024x768 as if it was 320x200, or something - whereas I've always viewed 1024x768 as the highest practical resolution I'd want to run most games at.




1024x768 was the sweet spot there for a few years but these days it is more about screen real estate for me than higher resolution for better eye candy. By screen real estate I mean more room on screen where I can see what is going on that is not cluttered by maps, hot bars, status bars for characters, etc. The problem is that even though the game graphics are scalable, the other stuff is not most of the time. So if I am running at 1024x768 and my hotbar is taking up 100x500 of those pixels, it will always block a certain section of what I see going on in the game. If I drop down to 800x600 the hot bar is still taking up 100x500 pixels and even more of what is going on in game is blocked.

Another issue is that with flat screen LCD Monitors, anything other than the native resolution looks a little blurry. So I am constantly trying to tweak my settings so I can stay at 1680x1050 resolution.

WizarDru once pointed out to me that this is the reason he is more of a console player than a PC platform gamer. PC Platform games are a constantly moving target where you feel you have to upgrade your graphics card, memory, processor, etc. to get the best performance out of the latest game. On the other hand, a console game you buy now will still run just fine on the console you bought two to three years ago. Of course both sides have their pluses and minuses.

Scorch


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## Matchstick (Nov 2, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> Question: Does anyone by chance have a link to a downloadable version of the patch other than using the in-game updater? I have it installed at home, where I have a dial-up connection, but I can download from work, where I have a T1. Anyone have a link to the english patch I might use? It's currently still not available on Atari's site.




I don't see one anywhere.  You can look here:

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=506590&forum=109&sp=30

and most especially here (this looks like where it should get posted):

http://nwn2.obsidian.net/support/patch_english.html#crit

I even went on the Atari FTP server, and they have a directory for it there, but there's no patch in it yet.


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## Simplicity (Nov 2, 2006)

I am LOVING this game so far.  It took a little tweaking to figure out what settings I could run without graphics artifacts... but now that I've found it.  I'm running pretty well on what I consider a fairly lowend system for gaming (P4 3.2Ghz, ATI 9800).  Graphics are significantly better than NWN in my opinion, and I drool over the idea of running this puppy at the resolutions I've heard people getting it to. 

I'm playing as a CN Warlock right now.  Wow, these guys are bad mofos.  I had no idea, but I seem to be able to repeatedly lay the smack down on hordes of enemies (and yes, there are hordes to face).  2d6+slow at 3rd level on a ranged touch attack every round is rather nice.  

The dialog options are pretty detailed so far as well, and I've certainly been able to get my chaotic on.  I'm really curious how things would have went if I'd been getting my evil on...  Hmmm...

The good:
1) Story so far.  Really holds your interest, and makes you feel like your an adventurer, not an exterminator.
2) Character customization (stat-wise).  Holy crap there's a lot of choices.
3) I like the interface.  Much better than the radial of NWN.  They've learned something from MMORPGs.  Inventory is perhaps a little lame, but other than that.  Good stuff.
4) Many dialog options.  It's not rare to see 4 different options in the dialog.  Not sure they all lead to very different places, but [Slit his throat] and "Hey, I've got healing" probably do different things.

The neutral:
1) I could still have used more feat choices, I think.  I'm spoiled by the PHBII.
2) Graphics.  Better than NWN.  That's not saying much.  BUT, my card is old, and it's not fair to compare to games like Oblivion.  I've seen scenes with around a dozen enemies on the screen.  You don't get that in Oblivion.

The bad:
1) Graphical glitches.  Nothing too major and nothing lowering my settings didn't instantly fix.
2) Sound-loops.  Occasional hiccups.  But it's always come back and never crashed.


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## Goodsport (Nov 2, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I'm running pretty well on what I consider a fairly lowend system for gaming (P4 3.2Ghz, ATI 9800).




Yikes!  I'd _never_ be able to play the game at a decent setting on my system (P4 2.53 Ghz, NVidia FX 5900 Ultra, 1024mb RAM). 


-G


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## Dax Doomslayer (Nov 2, 2006)

Hi Folks,
Does the NWN 2 game include the Tool Set to do module creation (or use for a D&D projector set up) or is that something different?  Thanks.


----------



## Simplicity (Nov 2, 2006)

Goodsport said:
			
		

> Yikes!  I'd _never_ be able to play the game at a decent setting on my system (P4 2.53 Ghz, NVidia FX 5900 Ultra, 1024mb RAM).
> 
> 
> -G




Actually, I think that would play the game just fine.  The video card is the same gen as mine (and also on the higher end of than generation).  The CPU is a little slower, but my performance isn't bad.  I'm running 1280x1024, with low shadows and medium textures.  There's reasonable room to go down from there (no shadows, low textures, lower res).


----------



## Thanee (Nov 2, 2006)

Dax Doomslayer said:
			
		

> Hi Folks,
> Does the NWN 2 game include the Tool Set to do module creation (or use for a D&D projector set up) or is that something different?  Thanks.




The toolset is part of the game, yes.

Bye
Thanee


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## Henry (Nov 2, 2006)

Goodsport said:
			
		

> Yikes!  I'd _never_ be able to play the game at a decent setting on my system (P4 2.53 Ghz, NVidia FX 5900 Ultra, 1024mb RAM).
> 
> 
> -G




Don't lose heart; I have a Sempron 2.4 Ghz, 512 MB RAM, and an Nvidia 7600GS video card, and I'm rockin' with even Medium-res graphics. Your video card might (might!) be your weakest link there, and the rest of your rig sounds faster than mine.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 2, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> Don't lose heart; I have a Sempron 2.4 Ghz, 512 MB RAM, and an Nvidia 7600GS video card, and I'm rockin' with even Medium-res graphics. Your video card might (might!) be your weakest link there, and the rest of your rig sounds faster than mine.




I've got an Athlon running at 3.5 Ghz, 1 gig RAM, and an NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT.  Should that be enough then?

Banshee


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## Henry (Nov 2, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I've got an Athlon running at 3.5 Ghz, 1 gig RAM, and an NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT.  Should that be enough then?
> 
> Banshee




You oughta be flyin' -- those are the box's recommended specs, almost.


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## Matchstick (Nov 2, 2006)

Mine just must be the 128 meg video card, because I have a 3GHz processor with 2 gigs of RAM.  I can't remember the card model, but it's an ATI.

I wish I knew that for certain, I might think about upgrading.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 2, 2006)

How much video memory a card has doesn't really matter compared to what model it is. A lot of times companies will bundle a lot of memory on a card in order to make it seem better to consumers, but in a lot of cases, it doesn't make a difference.  (Because the card won't be fast enough to take advantage of higher textures)


----------



## KenM (Nov 2, 2006)

For those that have the game, does it give you more options on how your character looks with character creation? I felt that was limited with NWN 1.


----------



## mmu1 (Nov 2, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> For those that have the game, does it give you more options on how your character looks with character creation? I felt that was limited with NWN 1.




I don't remember how many options NWN gave you, but in NWN2, you basically get to choose from 4-5 faces per race / per gender, around a dozen hairstyles, and... I dunno, 20-30 different colors for hair, eyes, eyebrows and skin. Body types are still set. The fact that there are some sub-races to pick from adds a little more variability, but it's still definitely not City of Heroes.


----------



## Simplicity (Nov 2, 2006)

All the basic races, each with a different body type.  About ten different hairstyles, and a toggle for facial hair.  Eye color, skin color, hair color are all pickable (from kind of a crazy number of colors...  I guess that was easy to implement.    ).  (Oh yeah, and I forgot that there are different face types as well).

It's certainly no City of Heroes in the character creation department, but I felt it was pretty reasonable.  Although, I would say that it's not the high point of the engine.  Once you get up close and personal with the characters, you can start to see the limits of the graphics.  Part of the problem is that the graphics are TECHNICALLY so much better than NWN that the the "uncanny valley" starts to creep in.

It's unsettling to watch a reasonable facsimile of a person gaping and eye-rolling while having a conversation.  Some of this is due to my weak graphics card, but still.... urg.


----------



## KenM (Nov 3, 2006)

One other question, does it have more emotes for multiplayer then NWN 1 had?


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## Matchstick (Nov 3, 2006)

Big old grain of salt here:

I don't know first hand about the emotes, but I did see something on the NWN2 boards about the emotes being "gutted".


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## trancejeremy (Nov 3, 2006)

Has anyone bought this online? I tried buying it at Amazon.com, who claim they have it in stock, but their estimated shipping date is next week.  So I cancelled there and tried Gogamer (who has is for $39.99), and they say they ship withing 24 hours. But they haven't, either.  Seems like places are having trouble getting hold of copies of it.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 3, 2006)

By the time I could get it installed, I only  had 30 minutes or so to play last night.  Even that much, I have to say, I'm not sure what the heck people are whining about on the Atari boards.  The graphics aren't as good as Oblivion, but they're pretty good....and the people complaining that the graphics were worse than NWN1's....I don't know what those folks are smoking, but I want some.

In the opening town, it feels a little sluggish panning the camera around.  That could be because there are so many people around, scripted events, etc.  I haven't been out of the town yet, but so far, it's very impressive.  Fairly good character customization.  I do find that some of the character's face models are a little ugly.....but on the other hand I like the FR authenticity.  It created a Sun Elf, and it's neat that the colours I can choose for hair, skin, and eyes are taken from a palette that is limited to only those colour ranges described for Sun Elves in the FRCS.  Same with Moon Elves, etc.  Kind of neat.

Oh, and Prestige Class uniforms....very cool!  Characters with a Prestige Class get a set of clothing unlike anything the other characters get.

I'm very impressed so far.  But I have to get much further into the game to make a decision.

Banshee


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## Simplicity (Nov 3, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> By the time I could get it installed, I only  had 30 minutes or so to play last night.  Even that much, I have to say, I'm not sure what the heck people are whining about on the Atari boards.




I can't believe the amount of vitriol being spewed at this game.  The Atari boards and the reviews on the gaming websites make me really sad.  You'd think Obsidian had written a game that kicks people's dog or something.  The main complaints seem to be:

1) It's not as cool looking as Oblivion!  (Duh.  More people per screen + networked play)
2) Multiplayer isn't flawless yet (Well, it wasn't in NWN1 right out of the box either.  The DM client is still in BETA for crying out loud.  Give them some time.  Yes, it'd be nice to live in a world where software worked perfectly out of the box.  That's not the world we live in.)
3) Camera issues.  There's four different types of camera.  No, it's not a first person game.
4) Choppy graphics (Turn off shadows! Turn down resolution!  Or buy a better computer.  Don't whine because you have an old machine)

1up.com gave the review a 5/10.  5!  The reviewer wrote something to the effect of: "I guess if you like D&D... maybe you'd like it."  Gamespot gave the *graphics* a 6/10.  Total score in the 8 range (which is LOW for Gamespot).  Space Rangers 2 got a 7/10 for graphics.  Whaaaaaat?  The difference between the graphics in those two games is like night and day.  Europa Universalis got a 7/10 for graphics.  That game looked like CRAP (even in its day).

This game seems to have a lot of depth from what I've seen so far (about 6 hours of play),
and the graphics seem good to me.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 3, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> I can't believe the amount of vitriol being spewed at this game.  The Atari boards and the reviews on the gaming websites make me really sad.  You'd think Obsidian had written a game that kicks people's dog or something.  The main complaints seem to be:
> 
> 1) It's not as cool looking as Oblivion!  (Duh.  More people per screen + networked play)
> 2) Multiplayer isn't flawless yet (Well, it wasn't in NWN1 right out of the box either.  The DM client is still in BETA for crying out loud.  Give them some time.  Yes, it'd be nice to live in a world where software worked perfectly out of the box.  That's not the world we live in.)
> ...




Preaching to the choir.  And I'm not a fanboy....I've been looking forward to it, definitely, but in the first day or two of the release, I was reading the Atari messageboards, and starting to think that preordering it was a mistake.  Now that I actually have it, I'm thinking "did they buy the same game I did"?

NWN, because of the modularity, was almost the perfect D&D game in some way....sure, some like BG2 and PS:T had better stories....but you could do *anything* with NWN, and the community has produced tonnes of material.  And now NWN 2 seems to take that trend even further...

Of course, I can't say I'm an expert on the topic, having only played for 30 minutes so far.  But once I left the inn in which you start the game, my fears started melting away pretty quickly.

Quick Question: I've heard that some of the prestige classes require that you complete specific quests to gain access to them.  Do you know if the Eldritch Knight requires this?  Last night, I got my Sun Elf to level 2, so she's now F1/W1.  Hopefully I can get her into Eldritch Knight pretty quickly.

Banshee


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## Simplicity (Nov 4, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Quick Question: I've heard that some of the prestige classes require that you complete specific quests to gain access to them.  Do you know if the Eldritch Knight requires this?  Last night, I got my Sun Elf to level 2, so she's now F1/W1.  Hopefully I can get her into Eldritch Knight pretty quickly.
> Banshee




I know that some of them require it (my guess: Shadow Thieves and Harpers are gonna have a quest at least... They're really organizations).  I doubt Eldritch Knight is going to require a quest, but I haven't gotten there yet, so I really can't say.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 4, 2006)

In NWN2, does the Mind over Body feat use INT to hp instead of CON for all levels?  Or only for level 1?  The instruction manual doesn't seem clear on the topic.

Banshee


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 4, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> 1up.com gave the review a 5/10.  5!  The reviewer wrote something to the effect of: "I guess if you like D&D... maybe you'd like it."  Gamespot gave the *graphics* a 6/10.  Total score in the 8 range (which is LOW for Gamespot).




I thought the 6 out of 10 for graphics from Gamespot was not deserved - though the reviewer was otherwise kind and was making a point about too high sys requirements and lack of HDR and AA - so he had a point.

And I'm not a fan of the art direction in some of the environmental textures either. The animations (particularly the run anim) could use some work. There are technical issues here though in terms of attack per round which really cause a lot of problems with the Aurora game engine - so there are some solid technical reasons behind this. Still - I'm not a fan.

(If I was in charge of 4E, I would get rid of increasing # of attacks per round. It is the single largest non-computer game friendly rule D&D has. We could do with another approach.) 

Anyways, the 1Up.com review was way out of line. I know some of the guys at Obsidian and have some sense of how hard they crunched on this and how difficult it is to get rules variations past WotC. 

Given the bias of the reviewer, I started a rather pointed thread  and took aim squarley at the reviewer and at the magazine on the Quarterthree forums last night (a site frequented mainly by game devs and gaming journalists).

In response to that thread and the sentiments expressed therein - 1Up and _Games for Windows _ (nee _Computer Gaming World_) actually RETRACTED the review today and apologized for it.  Here's Jeff Green's apology:



> *Neverwinter Nights 2 Review: The Apology  *
> Well, they say there is a first time for everything. And this would be another one of those first times. Yesterday (Nov 3) we posted online a review of Neverwinter Nights 2 by contributing editor Matt Peckham. Today we are pulling that review down and retracting it. The reason for this is simple. The review was not up to our regular editorial standards, and it was our mistake to publish it in the first place. I stand by Matt Peckham completely, as he has done great work for our magazine and this website. And we will continue to publish his works going forward. So this is not being done to either punish him or to disavow ourselves from him. The blame for this particular mistake falls entirely upon the editors of the magazine, and, in particular, me. It is my job as editor-in-chief to ensure that all of the articles--and in particular, the reviews--meet a certain standard of fairness, that every game gets its "fair shake." After listening to the comments of readers, and after reviewing the matter internally with the other GFW and 1UP editors, we have come to the conclusion that this was not a fair review--or at least, it can be perceived as not a fair review, which is just as bad. And we are not so stupid or arrogant that we can't admit our mistakes here. To publish this review without further edits was a mistake, and for that we apologize. The review has been retracted, the score has been retracted, and it will not appear in our print magazine. We sincerely regret the error, and we will be back next week with a new review.
> 
> Jeff




Game Daily, on the other hand, gave it five out of five stars.

I have yet to complete the game on the machine I want to play it on and need some time to come to conclusions about NWN2.

I will say this though: there are fewer problems with this sequel than there were with NWN1 out of the gate. Overall, the game plays much better on lower spec hardware than i thought it would as long as you turn down the eye candy. I'm getting 35fps on my XP 2700+ and Ati x1600 Pro (256) at 1184 x 900 or so res (scaled back widescreen).  That's a pretty damn fine performance for rather iffy hardware - so I'm happy about that.

I'll spark it up on my new machine on Monday and see how it purrs.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 4, 2006)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> They use a 32 point buy system for scores, and there are background traits, though the ones I saw didn't seem to match the ones I've seen elsewhere (I don't remember seeing "Ladies Man" for example).  I didn't notice that til later, so there may be more to that and I just missed it.  When I looked all of the traits had drawbacks, so I didn't take one.




Some background traits have prerequisites - Ladies Man requires a Cha of 10 or 12, I forget which.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> In the opening town, it feels a little sluggish panning the camera around. That could be because there are so many people around, scripted events, etc.




I thought so too, but go under Game Options and you can turn up the edge-of-screen scrolling.  I turned it up almost all the way to get it to a level that wasn't sluggish.  My system is at the suggested (not minimum) requirements, so it wasn't a game speed thing, it's just set low by default.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 4, 2006)

Right now, I'm getting the first NPC _for the third time_.

First time I had to do stuff over, I didn't save, so that was my fault.  However, for whatever reason the game wasn't autosaving, I didn't (at the time) know why.

The second time, it said there was no more HD space.  Uh, not true, I saving it on an almost empty 80GB HD.  Corrupted my saves.

That's why I realized it was using the My Documents folder for save games.  Grrr.  Okay, they want to be Vista compliant for limited user access when it comes out, fine.  However, changing the save directory should not only be possible, but made easy.  I had to move/repoint my My Documents folder when really all I should have had to do was type in the location in the nwn.ini file (which automatically used MD as a root).

That's my only real gripe.  Enjoying it immensely, even if everything related to actually playing the game, from buying to playing and everything in between, has been a chore.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 4, 2006)

I don't think it was just that thread that got the reivew pulled - people on gaming message boards everywhere have been in an uproar (pitchfork & torch mode, almost) over how poorly that review was written.

Still, it's not like 1UP is any good, and CGW (or whatever it's called now) hasn't been god since the mid 90s...(and even before, it had it's hiccups, like Outpost...)


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 4, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I don't think it was just that thread that got the reivew pulled - people on gaming message boards everywhere have been in an uproar (pitchfork & torch mode, almost) over how poorly that review was written.
> 
> Still, it's not like 1UP is any good, and CGW (or whatever it's called now) hasn't been god since the mid 90s...(and even before, it had it's hiccups, like Outpost...)




There were some others I'm sure - but Jeff Green and Matt did their replies there. It's their crew, so the criticism stings more at Qt3. *shrug*

As for Outpost: You misremember. That "93% = Excellent!" evaluation for a deeply flawed pile of bug infested Sierra goo was in the premiere issue of _PC Gamer_ back in '94 - not CGW  _CGW_ slagged it at the time.

Shame about _Outpost_. It could have been a great game...but I digress.  :\

I do think people remember _Outpost_ because A) the review was soooo wrong and B) it was in the premiere issue of the mag.

This review would have been in the Premiere issue of _Games For Windows_.  Seeing as the cover story is an exclusive (and I mean a REAL exclusive, not "pretend" exclusive) which unveils the first released shots of BioWare's _Dragon Age_...

The market they are going to attract with that cover would not have been too impressed with the "I hate D&D" review betwixt the covers.


----------



## Thanee (Nov 4, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Has anyone bought this online? I tried buying it at Amazon.com, who claim they have it in stock, but their estimated shipping date is next week.  So I cancelled there and tried Gogamer (who has is for $39.99), and they say they ship withing 24 hours. But they haven't, either.  Seems like places are having trouble getting hold of copies of it.




It's a little different here, since it gets imported (ordered the english-language version), but I got an E-Mail, that the delivery is delayed three days, so I should get it next week. 

Getting original-language games is really silly around here. You have to send in a copy of your passport so they can make sure you are age 18+, because only german titles are rated and the rating does not apply for the original (since it could be different in detail), and therefore the original is always rated the highest (and thus cannot be sold openly in stores and all that stuff). They also can only send it in a way, that it is given *directly* to you, and noone else, not even if they have a legal authorization and are clearly above 18 years.  

Protect the children from Neverwinter Nights!  

Ok, I can somewhat understand, why it is done that way, but really...

Bye
Thanee


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## LrdApoc (Nov 4, 2006)

Sidestepping the review debacle a minute...

Is anyone else really shocked at how ugly the character avatars are in the game? I mean none of the elves have a sense of lithe form or supernal beauty about them.. they universally look bad - male and female - its actually really disappointing to me.

Oblivion was much the same - all the characters looked really bad and it took a lot of tweaking to create anyone with a small hope of ever getting a date sometimes

I'm having trouble adapting to the lack of a radial menu - but I understand the change.. I just wish the characters were not so dog gone ugly. This has little to do with the actual graphics I might add - its a design choice/art direction issue.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 5, 2006)

A question for those playing NWN2.

Is NWN 2 putting more of a strain on your rigs than Oblivian?

I am running a P4 2.53GHz, 1 GB ram w/ a Radeon 9800 pro card.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 5, 2006)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Sidestepping the review debacle a minute...
> 
> Is anyone else really shocked at how ugly the character avatars are in the game? I mean none of the elves have a sense of lithe form or supernal beauty about them.. they universally look bad - male and female - its actually really disappointing to me.




Isn't that a 3e artwork style thing, though? Elves are ugly, giant eared monstrosities in 3e...


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## LrdApoc (Nov 5, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> A question for those playing NWN2.
> 
> Is NWN 2 putting more of a strain on your rigs than Oblivian?
> 
> I am running a P4 2.53GHz, 1 GB ram w/ a Radeon 9800 pro card.




Well I had to drop the glitz and graphics down quite a bit on my PC and laptop - which are not bleeding edge. 

PC - P4HT 3.2Ghz, 1GB ram, X600 (256mb)
Laptop: Duo Core 2 T5600, 1 GB ram, X1400 Hypermemory (128real/128 shared).

I still have lag int he cut scenes but it is playable and not completely unattractive. I think there is still a good deal of optimization in the games future to make it instantly playable on most mid-range systems... which is really an obstacle for a niche game like this.

Oblivion runs on the same systems well with med-high settings. Though honestly that required tweaking as well.


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## LrdApoc (Nov 5, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Isn't that a 3e artwork style thing, though? Elves are ugly, giant eared monstrosities in 3e...




Yeah. I guess so, but even the original NWN only had a hint of this in the character art - the eliptical eyes, strong cheekbones. It REALLY bugs me - because it fails to explain why a human would ever sleep with one willingly to create half-elves and we all know there are billions of half-elves in FR.

I wonder how long before someone uses the tools to make a "hot elf babe" texture hack pack. Maybe I should look into it myself since it bugs me so much.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 5, 2006)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> It REALLY bugs me - because it fails to explain why a human would ever sleep with one willingly to create half-elves and we all know there are billions of half-elves in FR.




They are humans. They will sleep with anything.   

That's why you have Half-orcs as well.


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## dpdx (Nov 5, 2006)

*Preliminary Review*

I am in the middle of the game with my first character since I got it two days ago, so I thought I'd post preliminary impressions:

The GREAT:
- The character building/leveling up interface. I truly, truly adore the way they've done this. I'd only change one thing: Weapon-specific feats, like the reviewer before me said, need a sub-menu.
- The story/plot on the single-player game. It's smooth, it incorporates the facts on the ground in original NWN as history, they incorporate it nicely with character building, and it's not too sappy OR too bleak.

The GOOD:
- NPCs in general. You've got a good mix, it's not Minsc and Boo, but they work.
- The game interface. I liked the radial menu, but this is fine, too. I'll eventually remember most of the keyboard shortcuts.
- Performance. My rig was fresh two years ago. It runs this OK, even though sometimes there's lag like I've seen in maxed-out multiplayer setups. I'll probably dial down some stuff so it runs more smoothly.
- Cut scenes also run fine on this setup.

Needs some work:
- It seems to me that you should be able to tell in this game whether villains were almost gone, or not even touched. They don't seem to have that any more in NWN2, and it makes it really tough to fightplan. Maybe I could turn that back on in options or something.
- Audio. some of the dialog gets drowned out by the music at default settings.
- The terrains in the single player. Maybe its because I haven't dropped $500 on the newest nVidia, but it doesn't look that much better than NWN, and in terms of contrasts (like water versus land), it doesn't deliver like the other one did.
- Sure are a lot more cutscenes.

All in all, a good game.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 5, 2006)

Supposedly the latest (like of Nov 2nd) Nvidia drivers are optimized for NWN2, and really really really help the framerate...


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## mmu1 (Nov 5, 2006)

dpdx said:
			
		

> I
> - It seems to me that you should be able to tell in this game whether villains were almost gone, or not even touched. They don't seem to have that any more in NWN2, and it makes it really tough to fightplan. Maybe I could turn that back on in options or something.




You mean their HP? You can right-click on enemies to see their health bars...


----------



## The Truth (Nov 5, 2006)

I got the game a few days ago and have been playing it a bit.  The game's a lot of fun; here are my thoughts.

+ I'm not very far in the game (4 hours?) but I've been enjoying the story so far.  The NPCs are interesting and I love watching turmoil build in my slowly-growing party.  A lot of plot threads are being laid out, and I'm curious to see where they go.  The way the dailog and conversation camera is handled makes the game feel a lot like Knights of the Old Republic (this is good).  Plus there's good lip synching.  I could never get into the original NWN because the story didn't work for me; I'm happy the opposite is true for the sequal.

+ Lots of game-mechanics-related character customization.  Lots of prestige classes (and the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, yay!), one new core class (the warlock), and lots of feats (practiced spellcaster is an important addition, since it makes multiclassed spellcasters much more viable).   You can also choose your deity and character background . . . wondering how these will be referenced in game.

+ Solid gameplay.  Combat is fun, and you get a fair amount of choices in how to handle some encounters.  There seem to be a lot of side quests too.

- Not so much aestetic character customization.  You get a few different heads and hair styles, can can change eye color / hair color / skin tone.  I found the choice of colors limiting . . . I wanted my character to have bright-red hair, but could only get a rusty brown.  Plus the characters just don't look as cool as they ought to.

- Performance.  This is a big one, and I think gamespot knocking the game's graphics is perfectly justifiable.  I've had to make some major concessions in the lighting / shadows deparment to get this to run at a fair frame rate (like around 15 fps, according to the ingame display).  Even then it fluctuates a lot, especially when there are several NPCs on the screen.  My PC ran Oblivion pretty well, and Guild Wars perfectly . . . it's not that NWN 2 isn't in the same ballpark as these games, it feels like its not even playing the same sport.  This also means my friends with average PCs won't be able to join in multiplayer.  I really hope Obsidian fixes this in later patches.

(My specs: 4 ghz Intell 4 processor, GeForce 6800, 1 gig RAM)

In the end, NWN2 is a lot of fun and its shaping up to be an excellent RPG, but you need a serious gaming computer to run it.  If you're on the fence about getting it, you should probably wait until its properly patched or you can upgrade.

Edit: Wow, turning off shadows entirely makes a huge improvement!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 5, 2006)

It's a per pixel lit game.  It isn't ever going to be patched to suddenly make old machines run a per pixel lit game well.  People really don't like this technicial reality though and they are bithcing bitching bitching about it.

We warned them. We warned people *loudly*.  But people only believe what they want to believe.

You might see a little more optomization improvements - but not much.  The huge improvement in frame rate from the beta (about which - more I will not say) has already been realized.

I'm getting acceptable frame rates on a XP 2700, 1gig with a X1600 Pro (256) AGP card - albeit, I do have to tone down the resolution and eye candy a tad.  But it's in the 30-40 frames per second out doors and very playable. For an AGP card you can pick up for $100 or so - that is the upgrade ticket for those wanting to play this game on older machines (The 512 version is about $125 at Newegg).

On a SLI rig (tomorrow!) I hope to dial it up and get what I want at high res and all options on.

_Oblivion_ is not really a fair comparison though. The underlying RPG engine is vastly simpler and the number of possible foes on screen at once is also vastly fewer. There is simply a lot less going on under the engine in Oblivion. It's a jumped up FPS.  It does have HDR though and combined with better art direction in the textures  - that makes it look better.

_Guild Wars _ is not a per pixel lit game. That is why they are not comparable technologies.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 5, 2006)

I'm a per pixel lit game!  Er....

A current-gen video card is definitely necessary to run the game optimally.  In contrast to The Truth, I only have a P4 3.0 Ghz CPU, and the same RAM (1MB), but I'm running an ATI 1600XT, and I'm running quite well.  With 2MB of RAM, I could probably run with full settings no problem.

On a different note, another complaint I'm finding with the game is that the AI for casters is pretty awful.  Druids aren't so bad, but Wizards tend to blow their wad too early, even on the tiered casting mode.  Also, Bards (my main char, aiming for Duelist) are rediculous under the AI.  Don't use Inspire Competance in the middle of a battle!  Even with Ability Use turned off, they still use it.  Most casters are an easy fix, if you don't mind a little micromanagement - turn off casting and manually cast spells when you need them (Quick Cast rocks).  Bards (IMO) are a lost cause though, and really need to put on Puppet Mode to be used effectively.

Also, does anyone know how to put the commands like "Follow Me" on the quickbar?  It would be great if there was something like the mode bar for them.  Also, is there a way to display (I know about Shift-1 etc) more than one quickbar?  It's not really a problem for any class (thanks to Quick Cast) I've run into except for... you guessed it, Bards.  Between weapons, bard songs, and healing, I don't have room for much else, so a lot of the "toys" get neglected.


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## 2WS-Steve (Nov 5, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It's a per pixel lit game.  It isn't ever going to be patched to suddenly make old machines run a per pixel lit game well.  People really don't like this technicial reality though and they are bithcing bitching bitching about it.




Frankly, all this talk about the technical wizardry underlying the game is very nice, but all that matters to me is that it looks good and it runs smoothly -- and it's not doing that. 

WH40KoW looks better and runs more smoothly, and it has larger maps and more guys on it.

That said, NWN2 does look okay, and it has enjoyable gameplay, which I value more than next-gen graphics. But I do get annoyed when people try to come out here and tell me "Don't trust your eyes, trust my words, actually it looks and runs great."


----------



## Thanee (Nov 5, 2006)

Yeah, it's not the smartest choice to use such hardware-intensive graphics technology in a multiplayer game, anyways.

Bye
Thanee


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 6, 2006)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Frankly, all this talk about the technical wizardry underlying the game is very nice, but all that matters to me is that it looks good and it runs smoothly -- and it's not doing that.
> 
> WH40KoW looks better and runs more smoothly, and it has larger maps and more guys on it.
> 
> That said, NWN2 does look okay, and it has enjoyable gameplay, which I value more than next-gen graphics. But I do get annoyed when people try to come out here and tell me "Don't trust your eyes, trust my words, actually it looks and runs great."




Dawn of War is a shader 2 vertex lit, not a shader 3 pixel lit game.

If you had a high-end shader 3 card, you wouldn't be saying what you are saying.

From your comments, I expect that you don't. So you are aren't seeing any advanced shader effects - but you _are_ seeing the results of not having enough GPU power on your system for NWN2.

As for your annoyance - I'll try not to confuse you with facts any further, ok? Carry on.


----------



## BlueBlackRed (Nov 6, 2006)

Glad to see I'm not the only one experiencing roughness & chunkiness of graphics.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's not the smartest choice to use such hardware-intensive graphics technology in a multiplayer game, anyways.




The vast majority of people who played NWN1 played it in SP mode.  NWN2's tech design is aimed principally at a singple player experience, while it accomodates multiplayer play.

In terms of design choices, in NWN1, the technical questions were always resolved in favor of multiplayer when the game was written. That is no longer the inflexible rule that was the case during the first game's development. The tail no longer wags the dog.

Whether you like this or not was not the point of the above; it simply reflects the design choices of Obsidian and the market data of how NWN1 was played.

It also reflects the intended shelf life of the game - which is contemplated in years, not months.


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## takyris (Nov 6, 2006)

Steel, it's difficult to tell people what they should like, and it sounds a little like that's what you're trying to do, here. If the designers believed so strongly that the game should have the graphic power to support a three or four year lifespan, then they should be willing to accept the criticism coming out right now because they know that they'll be proven right.

Believing that a long-term benefit outweighs the short-term problem it creates does not make that short-term problem suddenly disappear. You've explained their reasoning, as have some of the designer diaries I read, and I don't think taking people to task for their opinions is going to have any further benefit.

Personally, with respect to the review debacle: I didn't think it was a valid review as much as an attack on D&D as a concept, so it had to be thrown out. I look forward to seeing whether the *real* review also says that the plots and NPCs are cookie-cutter, because I hadn't heard that anywhere else. That said, I'm concerned by one phrase you used:



			
				Steel Wind said:
			
		

> I know some of the guys at Obsidian and have some sense of how hard they crunched on this...




Accepting that the review was bad and delete-worthy, I really don't think that how hard the designers tried is or should be an issue. Over in the media thread, there were a few posts discussing something similar to this. If game designers try really hard and end up producing a bad game, they've still produced a bad game. *Every* game is hard to make. *Every* game involves crunch hours, difficult work, and complicated and sometimes frustrating talks with the publisher and license-holder.

I haven't seen NWN2 personally, so I can't say whether I think it's a bad game or not. Most of what I've heard about the story has been positive, which bodes well. We'll see if it has an ending this time. When I've got a computer that can run it, I look forward to finding out for myself.

But the customer is always right. If many many people are having trouble getting it to run well because of the graphics choices that were made, all the explanation in the world won't change that. A frustrated customer is a frustrated customer.


----------



## LrdApoc (Nov 6, 2006)

While I can accept the technical brilliance and expandability building this sort of engine offers for the future there is a problem in planning it into technology for today. I think it's great its per-pixel lit. I think it's gorgeous when running at full spec.. however the average gamer - not the power gamer - will not grok that difference and will only see a game that does not run well. D&D is niche but Power Gamers are even more niche within that group.

Tech orgasms are one thing but its not bitching to say "Hey, it doesn't run well on a majority of systems."  Frankly I find it interesting the concept is to adopt advanced hardware to give the system and game longer shelf life at a trade-off of low acceptance in the beginning of the products life cycle.

Hey face... screw that nose, just drop it. (sorry if the phrasin' on that is too vague)

Atari and Obsidian have released a great product. One I am going to write a very commendable review regarding. The bottom line is that without guidance or newer tech than the mean system sold by HP, Dell and Compaq in the last 2 years the game will underperform or garner bad reactions from casual fans of the genre who have seen games like Guild Wars - with a similar camera system and massively online environment - produce amazing graphics on older technology cards with a suitable boost on newer cards.

You can justify the performance and technology requirements all you like but frankly it comes down to having an engine that can be played by the majority of your consumers and will not cause them hours of frustration to tweak settings. Most will just bitch and walk away with a memory of what it was like when the expansion or next game from the publisher is released.

The biggest problem is the autodetect function on the graphics not suitably detecting thresholds and warning players to set their expectations properly. 

The poor quality of NWN graphics did not kill it - it was the gameplay that people wanted and got, eventually the graphics became better and folks accepted that it was never going to be a "knock your socks off graphical RPG". 

Will this happen for NWN2? Sure but it will take some help setting expectations and calming those who purchase it down after they are initially disappointed int he performance. I can remember having similar disappointment in Doom 3 when it was released - it could look amazing - but it took a few years for the hardware to catch up and dialing back the graphics still left you with a good looking experience and solid FPS gameplay.

People don't expect FPS graphics in an RPG - Oblivion notwithstanding - they want a great story and good experience out of the box.  That's my take at least at this point. 

Now I have tweaked my two systems to play the game well. I simply had to turn off the per-pixel shading, shadows, reflection and Normal Maps to get one working well and the other just lost the shadows but I had to spend time reading and experimenting to find the best settings and Atari/Obsidian/Fanboys on the next complaining about my question of how to optimize for my system didn't help much. 

Two days after Doom 3 hit there was a guide helping people scale their settings. Two hours after Oblivion came out there was the same thing... why isn't something like this available for NWN2?


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 6, 2006)

I actually wonder if perhaps NWN2 wasn't designed for the Xbox 360 in mind. Not so much for NWN2, but KOTOR3.  And thus the fancy technical stuff, which honestly, very few PC gamers will be able to take advantage of right now.  It also seems like it runs a lot better on ATI cards than nvidia - a GeForce 6800 generally benchmarks the same as a ATI 1600, and it also supports 3.0 shaders, yet the Truth (Nvidia 6800) apparently gets 15 fps with graphics on low, while Steel_Wind (ATI 1600) gets twice that with them on medium.  The 360 uses ATI's graphics. Also, apparently they didn't put Anti-aliasing in NWN2, which could mean they were planning to use the one in the 360 (which I think has a special chip for, and thus not done like PC AA).

Anyway, ultimately, game players just care about the end results - not any of the fancy technical stuff.  As LrdApoc points out, Guild Wars looks simply amazing, and even on really lousy hardware, it still looks great.  The original NWN was a fairly mass market game (I played the original on a Pentium 2/400 with a TNT2 card), so they should have realized that NWN2 would be the same. 

(And oh yeah, when I mentioned CGW and Outpost, I was actually referring to their constant fawning previews over it, then giving it (a deservedly) bad review when it finally came out.  That was a problem they had, and a problem especially because back then, mags often were about a month later than the game itself, so the previews were more timely when the games release than the "review".)


----------



## Shag (Nov 6, 2006)

I've been enjoying the game so far.  It's only crashed once on me, I rested and all the sudden the druid went up a level and the game froze. 
The only things bugging me are that I can get the patch to work at all, and the game is very linear so far.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 6, 2006)

How do you measure FPS in the game?  It seems to run fine for me, though my NVidia drivers are a few months old....maybe I should upgrade to the new ones..

In any case, is there any way to tell what speed I'm getting?

Banshee


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 6, 2006)

I believe it's like the original. Open the console  with ~

then enter 

showfps


Edit: Anyway, I don't mean that all nvidia users seem to run it poorly, but that does seem a common thread among those that do.  Those ATI users that have trouble seem to have really old cards. (And I know the game is sponsored by Nvidia, but that's just an ad)

As an example, here's a thread by a guy who had a 7800 GT (not a wussy or old card by any means). He was getting 10 FPS.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=922154&topic=31545936

He was able to fix it with some tweaking, though.


----------



## Matchstick (Nov 6, 2006)

Played about 15 hours worth of multiplayer over the weekend.  I'm going to try and get another quick review up about that this morning.  It will be a positive review.





> - It seems to me that you should be able to tell in this game whether villains were almost gone, or not even touched. They don't seem to have that any more in NWN2, and it makes it really tough to fightplan. Maybe I could turn that back on in options or something.




One of the things I'm slowly learning is the targetting system.  There's a keyboard key for "target enemy" and one for "target nearest enemy" and I really think those are the best ways to fight.  I have a heck of a time clicking on someone while I'm moving, and it's even worse when they are moving as well.  Using those keys just gets me a target I can beat on.  Also, when you do it that way they show up in the target icon just left of center at the top of the screen, and on that target icon you can see their HP.



> Is anyone else really shocked at how ugly the character avatars are in the game? I mean none of the elves have a sense of lithe form or supernal beauty about them.. they universally look bad - male and female - its actually really disappointing to me.




Honestly, I think the elven Druid is extremely attractive.  I think she moves well, but her face is just exquisite.  You might be talking about PC's though, and I can't comment on that.



> Quick Question: I've heard that some of the prestige classes require that you complete specific quests to gain access to them. Do you know if the Eldritch Knight requires this? Last night, I got my Sun Elf to level 2, so she's now F1/W1. Hopefully I can get her into Eldritch Knight pretty quickly.




I'm pretty sure the Eldritch Knight doesn't have a quest prereq.  Not positive, but pretty darn sure.



> I believe it's like the original. Open the console with ~
> 
> then enter
> 
> showfps




There's another step.  Open the console with the tilde key and then type

DebugMode 1

Capitals count here I believe.  You should see something in the chat window indicating you're in debug mode.  Now you can type 

showfps 

and you'll see the FPS (I've gotten mine up to about 30 outdoors by turning off pretty much everything, indoors is another matter though).  To turn it off just type "showfps" again, and then you can turn off Debug Mode with "DebugMode 0".



> On a different note, another complaint I'm finding with the game is that the AI for casters is pretty awful. Druids aren't so bad, but Wizards tend to blow their wad too early, even on the tiered casting mode. Also, Bards (my main char, aiming for Duelist) are rediculous under the AI. Don't use Inspire Competance in the middle of a battle! Even with Ability Use turned off, they still use it. Most casters are an easy fix, if you don't mind a little micromanagement - turn off casting and manually cast spells when you need them (Quick Cast rocks). Bards (IMO) are a lost cause though, and really need to put on Puppet Mode to be used effectively.
> 
> Also, does anyone know how to put the commands like "Follow Me" on the quickbar? It would be great if there was something like the mode bar for them. Also, is there a way to display (I know about Shift-1 etc) more than one quickbar? It's not really a problem for any class (thanks to Quick Cast) I've run into except for... you guessed it, Bards. Between weapons, bard songs, and healing, I don't have room for much else, so a lot of the "toys" get neglected.




I agree about the casters, at least from what I've seen.  The sorcerer just UNLOADS on foes (it's actually pretty entertaining).  Doesn't matter if it's one guy or seven guys, she's got the volume set to 11 and is going all out.  Awesomely hilarious!  Of course with it costing all of five seconds to rest and recharge her (not counting re-buffing) we haven't found it to be that big of a deal.  Objectively though, it should be much better.

I'm not a big fan of the quickbars.  I much preferred the old way even if it did have fewer hotkeys.  Right now I'm just running with one quickbar because it feels too clumsy to me to Shift-# through them.  Probably because I would push Ctrl and then click on my option.  I wish they'd have done the old method, just with more options:

Shift - Quickbar #1
Ctrl - Quickbar #2
Alt - Quickbar #3
Shift, Ctrl - Quickbar #4
Alt, Ctrl - Quickbar #5
etc.

I think I read that you can't put group commands on the quickbar.  Not positive though.


----------



## LrdApoc (Nov 6, 2006)

One thing that I'm not sure i like about the new interface is the quickspell bar - I also don;t like having to use the mouse to click and convert to Spont. Casting. Maybe I missed a shortcut key along the way but the old keyboard shortcut to convert memorized spells to heals was nice - playing a cleric I always found it especially nice.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 6, 2006)

I'm really enjoying the game so far.....the single player is far, far better than NWN1.  The graphics are far superior as well.  For all I know, I'm getting 10 FPS....still seems pretty smooth to me.  I followed instructions earlier in the thread, and pumped up the scroll speed for the camera, and it seems to work fine now.

I can't figure out how to highlight clickable items and treasure bags like in NWN1 though.  I know the tutorial mentioned it, but I can't remember what it said, and there's no indicator of what key to use in the instruction manual.

Does the game manual mention how many classes you can have?  In NWN1, you could have a max of 3 classes, including any prestige classes.  I want to move to Eldritch Knight, but the 8 ranks of Diplomacy mean that I'm going to have to wait until lvl 13, as it's a crossclass skill.  I'm wondering if I could do something like F1/Rog1/Wizard5, and focus my Rogue skill points on Diplomacy, which would let me into the class for lvl 8.  But this would only work if NWN2 allows me to have 3 classes + prestige class.  Does anyone know?

I'm not confident I like the menu system as much, but the NPC companion system is like 10x better than what it was in NWN1, so that's pretty good.  And it's got a somewhat true magic item crafting system, with the correct feats and such.  Cool!

Banshee


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 6, 2006)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> There's another step.  Open the console with the tilde key and then type
> 
> DebugMode 1
> 
> ...




Actually, you don't need to do that for showfps.



			
				Matchstick said:
			
		

> I think I read that you can't put group commands on the quickbar.  Not positive though.




Gragh.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Does the game manual mention how many classes you can have?




Surprisingly, no.  However, I believe you can have four different classes in NWN2.  I'm not positive on this though.


----------



## Matchstick (Nov 6, 2006)

You know, I didn't think so either, but then when I tried it without DebugMode I couldn't get it to work.  Now I'm wondering if I just didn't mis-type it!  I think I only tried it once and then went to DebugMode, so I probably did.



> But this would only work if NWN2 allows me to have 3 classes + prestige class. Does anyone know?




Figures the first day I don't bring the manual to work is the first day I really want it.  I'm 99.9% certain that you can have 3 classes and 1 prestige class.  I'm also pretty dang sure it's in the manual somewhere, as I don't remember reading it online.



> I can't figure out how to highlight clickable items and treasure bags like in NWN1 though. I know the tutorial mentioned it, but I can't remember what it said, and there's no indicator of what key to use in the instruction manual.




It's the letter "Z" on the keyboard.  Intuitive, no?  It used to be Tab, but now Tab targets.  This might be in the manual on the very last pair of pages where the hotkeys are listed.  Not sure though.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 7, 2006)

You can have up to four classes.

So far, I'm enjoying it, as the single player game is much improved over NWN1's OC. The graphics are much better -- no more boring cubes! -- and the systems runs fine if a tad slowly on my relatively low-end machine (Radeon X600, 1 Gig RAM).  I don't particularly fine the avatars to be ugly, in spite of all of the complaints.

I do think that NWN1's user interface was generally better, though the WNWN2 inventory screen is much improved -- I hated Tetris inventory -- and the quick spell option that shows all of your spells at once is better.  I dislike the right click-and-hold requirements, and it is damnably hard to target enemies at the beginning.  AI is OK, though after the druid dropped an Ice Storm on a target next to her I'm thinking about jst putting all NPCs in Puppet Mode.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hmm...just measured it.  I'm apparently getting 14.95 FPS with an Athlon 3500, 1 gig RAM, and NVidia 7600GT.  That's with all the details on max.  Apparently 14.95 isn't great, but I didn't really notice until I went into the console and played around a bit.

It's perfectly playable at that speed.

Banshee


----------



## Rl'Halsinor (Nov 7, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Hmm...just measured it.  I'm apparently getting 14.95 FPS with an Athlon 3500, 1 gig RAM, and NVidia 7600GT.  That's with all the details on max.  Apparently 14.95 isn't great, but I didn't really notice until I went into the console and played around a bit.
> 
> It's perfectly playable at that speed.
> 
> Banshee




Seems a lot of people will turn off the various shadow options but keep evrything else on high for decent frame rates.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Nov 7, 2006)

Question: I'm upgrading to a Duo from my old AMD 1800. That means I have to get a whole new mobo and drop my AGP video card. DirectX 10 is just around the corner, I hear, so I want to get the cheapest PCI Express card I can that will run the game and upgrade it later. I just can't figure out what that is, as I've been out of the hardware loop for too long. Anyone have recommendations?


----------



## Thanee (Nov 7, 2006)

Tom has...

Bye
Thanee


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 7, 2006)

Does this run on Linux like the first game?  I'm in the process of moving to Ubuntu Linux from XP Pro and would like to get that XP partition deleted before too long.


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## Matchstick (Nov 7, 2006)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Seems a lot of people will turn off the various shadow options but keep evrything else on high for decent frame rates.




The water reflection/refraction stuff is another pretty big one.  I turn that off in almost all the games I play, it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game one whit to have reflective water, and yet a lot of times that useless reflective water will bog down a machine.

Turning off water reflection/refraction and turning off shadows would be the two things I would recommend first for anyone with performance issues.  I run at about 30fps outside now, it's smooth.  

I still see lag inside to some extent, and I think the multiple light sources are the problem there.  You can set the number of light sources down and that helps indoors.


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## Kaodi (Nov 7, 2006)

I guess I'm funny in that I like to have the effects like shadows and reflective water and generally prefer to have everything at a lower graphical level than have most things at a high level and some not at all.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 7, 2006)

<sigh> Finally get it today, spend a half hour installing it (should really have gotten the DVD version - 7 cds, yikes) and it won't start.

"The application failed to initialize properly (0xc000135). Click on OK to terminate the application"

edit: 

Even better, when you go to click on Bioware's site for "Support", it takes you to Atari's site. Which has no listing for NWN2.

<double sigh>

I hate how these days game buyers are basically left to fend for themselves with getting games to work.


----------



## Shag (Nov 7, 2006)

Haha the  updater is up to version 1.04 now and I still can't get the patch to work.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 7, 2006)

A-ha, after searching the self-help forum, apparently the game uses .net 2.0, and they only included the 32 bit version on the disc, not the 64 bit version for people like me running XP x64. So I have to download the 64 bit version for it to work.

I guess that also explains the lousy performance.  All the .net programs I've used before (admittedly for 1.0) all ran like a pig. (And not one of those fancy racing pigs, one of those big fat lazy ones)


----------



## takyris (Nov 7, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Even better, when you go to click on Bioware's site for "Support", it takes you to Atari's site. Which has no listing for NWN2.




Going to BioWare's site was likely not going to work well, anyway, since Obisidian, not BioWare, made the game.


----------



## Mycanid (Nov 7, 2006)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Question: I'm upgrading to a Duo from my old AMD 1800. That means I have to get a whole new mobo and drop my AGP video card. DirectX 10 is just around the corner, I hear, so I want to get the cheapest PCI Express card I can that will run the game and upgrade it later. I just can't figure out what that is, as I've been out of the hardware loop for too long. Anyone have recommendations?




I'd recommend the nVidia 7600 maself. I have one in an older agp board and it does fine running things like Oblivion. (I have not tried NWN 2 yet.) I have heard many good things from others about this card in pci express performance too. Supposedly nVidia just released a driver patch optimized for NWN 2 as well....


----------



## Simplicity (Nov 8, 2006)

It may be true that nvidia released new drivers, but from my glances at the forum far more nvidia users seem to be complaining that the game is a pig.  Wheras my ATI 9800 runs the game surprising smoothly...  I wonder if the nvidia cards might just not handle this game as well (even though they do advertise).

I've got two systems at home, both of which I've tried the game on...  One is a ATI9800, and one is a nvidia 5500 (can't remember exact lower order number...  not low-end at least).
The ATI system is smooth.  The nvidia system can't run with all settings low.   The nvidia machine also has a slightly slower CPU (3.0 Ghz p4 vs. 3.4 p4).  Newest drivers on both.

I ran a multiplayer test.  Clicked to move a character on the nvidia machine.  Watched the character move ON THE ATI machine almost instantly.  5 seconds later, the character moved on the nvidia machine.  The machine across the network was responding to my commands faster than the local one.


----------



## Mycanid (Nov 8, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> It may be true that nvidia released new drivers, but from my glances at the forum far more nvidia users seem to be complaining that the game is a pig.  Wheras my ATI 9800 runs the game surprising smoothly...  I wonder if the nvidia cards might just not handle this game as well (even though they do advertise).
> 
> I've got two systems at home, both of which I've tried the game on...  One is a ATI9800, and one is a nvidia 5500 (can't remember exact lower order number...  not low-end at least).
> The ATI system is smooth.  The nvidia system can't run with all settings low.   The nvidia machine also has a slightly slower CPU (3.0 Ghz p4 vs. 3.4 p4).  Newest drivers on both.
> ...




Well THATS not a very consoling thing to hear. Hmm. Well, the ATI x1600 is also a good card, from all I hear, and it is comparable in price with everything else that i have seen. Maybe Steel Wind will pop up soon and give some insight or a take on nVidia 7xxx cards with NWN 2.

The nVidia 5500 is a VERY slow card compared to the ATI 9800, but still....

I'm sure things will come up to snuff soon though. That's all the more reason why I wanted to wait a bit until the initial bugs of NWN 2 smoothed themselves out a bit. However I must admit to being grateful to all you folks out there willing to be the ... err ... testers, I guess.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 8, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> Going to BioWare's site was likely not going to work well, anyway, since Obisidian, not BioWare, made the game.




Then you should explain that to Obsidian, because when you click on NWN2 forum on Obsidian's site, it takes you to Bioware forum for NWN2. (Which then takes you to the Atari technical support page, which doesn't have any help for NWN2.)


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 8, 2006)

Ok - here's the current deal on performance.

I'm definitely pushing the edges of my NDA here. So cut me  - and Obsidian -some slack here please.

1) Obsidian is aware of all of the issues being discussed here and there is work underway  to address them. 

2) The leading edge machine issue is something Obsidian is also well familiar with. I brought this up with them specifically today. Answer: Yes. This will be addressed. 

3) Major issue: For now - water reflections and refractions are dragging performance down  across the GPU board. Turn em off for now, unless you are at the very top end (and even then).

4) There are optomizations in progress which will improve speed for all ranges (in addition to some high end specific stuff underway).

5) Medium term, there is further engine work planned beyond the work already in progess. 

Upshot: give it a lil bit of time here folks. There is signinficant performance relief on the way.


----------



## takyris (Nov 8, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Then you should explain that to Obsidian, because when you click on NWN2 forum on Obsidian's site, it takes you to Bioware forum for NWN2. (Which then takes you to the Atari technical support page, which doesn't have any help for NWN2.)




Yep. BioWare hosted the forums, by the wishes of both Obsidian and BioWare, in order to help NWN1 fans over to NWN2 smoothly. I'm not arguing that. If you've got technical questions that poking around on a forum might solve (by asking other users or talking with one of the designers who posts there), then the forums are your place to look, and you should go to BioWare's forum area. 

However, if you're looking for a non-forum based support page, Obsidian's website is the place to start. (And if they in turn direct you to Atari, who directs you to outer space, well, that's a bummer all over.) Don't expect BioWare to offer support for a product that Obsidian made.


----------



## LrdApoc (Nov 8, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Ok - here's the current deal on performance.
> 
> I'm definitely pushing the edges of my NDA here. So cut me  - and Obsidian -some slack here please.
> 
> ...




Steel_Wind,

Thanks for the update. I want to make sure you realize that for most of my issues (as one of the vocal minority here) I am enjoying things really well and have a great respect for your willingness to try and clarify some expectations. 

Thanks for taking the time and please also pass along that I don't think most of us (unlike a lot on the official boards) are in bash mode - just trying to puzzle it all out and find the best way to run the game.

I'm writing my review tomorrow and it will mention the slowdowns but only informationaly - the rest of the game actually is pretty amazing and has progressed a lot since I first saw it at E3. I really do think it is a great game with a good life if the community embraces it - much like NWN.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 8, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> Yep. BioWare hosted the forums, by the wishes of both Obsidian and BioWare, in order to help NWN1 fans over to NWN2 smoothly. I'm not arguing that. If you've got technical questions that poking around on a forum might solve (by asking other users or talking with one of the designers who posts there), then the forums are your place to look, and you should go to BioWare's forum area.
> 
> However, if you're looking for a non-forum based support page, Obsidian's website is the place to start. (And if they in turn direct you to Atari, who directs you to outer space, well, that's a bummer all over.) Don't expect BioWare to offer support for a product that Obsidian made.




In my experience, non-forum based support is generally worthless. Because it generally just says things like "Make sure your drivers are updated",  "Make sure to end all background tasks". Maybe months after the game has come out, and all the bugs are ided, the support section will get updated (maybe). But for new games, forums are always the first place to look.


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Nov 8, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Upshot: give it a lil bit of time here folks. There is signinficant performance relief on the way.




That's good to hear. And I do want to point out that I think NWN2 is terrific on a bunch of levels, and that I did buy it knowing that I'd not get the full show until I did the computer upgrade I was planning for the next couple months.

Which leads me to a related question for the public at large -- I was thinking that I might be able to score a nice computer cheap by purchasing BEFORE Windows Vista hits -- maybe around the holidays. I figure a bunch of places might cut prices since so many people will wait for Vista to come bundled, and companies like to dump inventory before year end. Anyone have any thoughts on that strategy?


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## Rl'Halsinor (Nov 8, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> Going to BioWare's site was likely not going to work well, anyway, since Obisidian, not BioWare, made the game.




Yeah, but the Obsidian forums are there anyway.  Tons of stickies and a number of them on hardware/graphics settings as you can imagine.  Just click on forums and then go to the Neverwinter Nights 2 forums.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 8, 2006)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Question: I'm upgrading to a Duo from my old AMD 1800. That means I have to get a whole new mobo and drop my AGP video card. DirectX 10 is just around the corner, I hear, so I want to get the cheapest PCI Express card I can that will run the game and upgrade it later. I just can't figure out what that is, as I've been out of the hardware loop for too long. Anyone have recommendations?




An interesting premise. Looking for a cheap PCI-E card to tide you over until you make a bigger upgrade for Vista?

I don't disagree with the logic. I think it's reasonably sound. But the devil is in the details.

It all boils down to WHEN.  When are you planning on getting that DX10 card? I suggest to you that one of the big factors in that answer is "when I have a real use for it".

Vista and Direct X10 games represent a very sharp break with the past. DirectX 10 is a major "reset" of the DX pipeline and there are serious questions of how well the market is going to be able to accommodate it. It is even possible that this "clean break" approach with DX10 could outright fail.

The base requirements for DX 10 is such that there is no going back. If you create your game for DX10  - you don't have a fallback support for DX 9.0c or b hardware. This is a big  - nay - massive departure.

In fact, that's a DAMN scary propoosition if you are a developer. You are seriously limiting your potential market if you develop a pure DX10  game (leaving aside parallel hybrid development).

There is also the issue of Vista itself. While I do think that the current installed Windows XP base will migrate to Vista - I think it will be 18 months or so before this reaches critical mass.

Put another way - you won't have a good reason to purchase a DX10 card i.e., to play DX 10 games - for about 18 months or so, maybe as much as 24 months.

18-24 months is long time in computer hardware and gaming. If you were thinking "I'll get a DX10 card in 6 months" then that, I think, is going to lead to a different purchasing strategy then "I'll get a replacement card in 18-24 months".

Best PCIE-E option:

Three weeks ago, I would have recommended the 7900GTO for $253 as the best overall card for you to get. It's essentially a 7900GTX with slightly slower memory - in other words - while not quite bleeding edge, it was leading edge at an awesome price. Best card for the money, bar none.

Problem is - everyone recognized that for being true and they pretty much instantly sold out. You can't find the damn things anywhere. The recommendation was so obvious everybody snapped these up as nVidia dumped these cores and they are GONE.

Solution?

The 7900GT is on sale right now, after rebate, for $199. That's a SIGNIFICANTLY better card than a 7600, which in my view, is a card you do not want. It's got the cachet of a 7xxx series model number, but it is a pale imitation of the 7900 model line. The 7600 is a paper tiger.  It's the card you want if you think you are getting a DX10 card in 6-9 months.  But I don't think so, I really don't. As explained above, I think you won't have a need for a DX 10 card for quite a while. 

The 7900GT is a damned snappy card and at $199 - you'll be pleased with the price and performance now - without having sunk too much $$ in that buying a DX10 card 18-24 months from now will seem to be a waste.

Link for the $199 7900GT at Newegg is here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150195


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## takyris (Nov 8, 2006)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Yeah, but the Obsidian forums are there anyway.  Tons of stickies and a number of them on hardware/graphics settings as you can imagine.  Just click on forums and then go to the Neverwinter Nights 2 forums.




Yes. As I noted in another post. I did not take issue with the statement that NWN2's forums are at BioWare.

I took issue with the implicit statement that BioWare was failing to support NWN2 properly, when trancejeremy complained about BioWare's links sending him to Atari. The link on BioWare's support page is there as a courtesy, not as an acknowledgment of support liability.


----------



## Thanee (Nov 8, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Three weeks ago, I would have recommended the 7900GTO for $253 as the best overall card for you to get. Problem is - everyone recognized that for being true and they pretty much instantly sold out.




That's also what is written on Tom's Hardware... he recommends the Radeon X1950 PRO now in this range.

For comparison, only the 7900 GS and 7950 GT are mentioned, though.

[SBLOCK]*Best PCI-E Card For ~$180*

Radeon X1950 PRO

Codename: RV570, 90-nanometer technology
36 Pixel shaders, Eight Vertex shaders, 12 Texture units, 12 Raster Operator Units
256 bit external memory bus (512-bit internal ring bus)
575 MHz core, 690-MHz DDR (1280 MHz effective) Memory

The X1950 PRO is similar to the X1900 GT, the main difference being that it is not based on the X1900 XT, but a whole new and less power-hungry core.

The card's main competition is the 7900 GS, which it soundly beats in almost every benchmark.

I have already seen brand-new X1950 PROs for as little as $165 on Newegg. At that price this card is an absolutely incredible deal.

*Best PCI-E Card For ~$250: None*

In this price range, the best buys used to be the Geforce 7900 GTO and Radeon X1900 XT 256mb.

Unfortunately, I can't find them for that price anymore. What we can find in this price range is the 7950 GT, which is a good card, but it is more expensive than the X1950 PRO and only offers similar performance. It is thus hard to recommend.

Supposedly, ATI will release the X1950 XT this month, which should be a recommended buy once it becomes available--assuming it can be bought in this price segment. Until then, keep your eyes out for X1900 XTs and 7900 GTOs, in case they resurface in the $250 range.[/SBLOCK]

Bye
Thanee


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 8, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> I took issue with the implicit statement that BioWare was failing to support NWN2 properly, when trancejeremy complained about BioWare's links sending him to Atari. The link on BioWare's support page is there as a courtesy, not as an acknowledgment of support liability.




Well, the trouble with that, is that it wasn't implied (though I can understand that as a Bioware employee, you might be sensitive to such slights, so my apologies if it seemed that way).  I wasn't irked at Bioware for not offering technical support - I was irked at nobody offering technical support.  When you finally get a game you've been waiting for, then get a stupid error message, it's very irksome. 

Anyway, it's really Atari's responsibility.  They stink at that.  So it's nice that Obsidians/Bioware at least have forums where I was able to find the answer.  

Actually, it's kinda funny. I just spent 7 hours downloading the 64 bit version of .net 2.0 (I'm on slow dialup), but now that I look on the disc, it's actually on there.  The installer apparently just assumes everyone has 32 bit XP and runs that version of the installer.  D'oh...


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 8, 2006)

Anyway, now that I get it running, I have to say it runs pretty well for me.  It defaulted to max everything, and I got a fps of 14.95 indoors. Which I didn't find bearable. So I turned the shadows to low, and that doubled the framerate.  Which is quite playable.

One thing that was very annoying, is the game defaulted to a refresh reate of 60Hz. Which is nigh on unbeable on a CRT monitor. And there is no obvious way to change it to something that doesn't kill the eyes. Poking through the nwn.ini file, I seemed to have fixed it, but after I exited, it changed it back...


edit: Now the refresh rates seems to have stuck.

Anyway, the graphics in the game are weird. They aren't what you call sexy, but they have a very impressive amount of detail. And it can handle a very large number of people on screen at once without a slowdown. Oblivion, OTOH, ran at a higher frame rate for me most of the time, but during some of the mass battles, like the one where you help defend the town, it was really choppy and made fighting almost impossible.




Spoiler



And is it me, or is the Tiefling girl you rescue sound exactly like (and sorta look like) the Twilek girl from the KOTOR games?


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## Kaodi (Nov 8, 2006)

How do you check to see if you are running a 32-bit or 64-bit XP? My CPU is an Athlon 64, but when I got my computer I don't think I was actually aware that there was a seperate version of XP for 64-bit instead of them being built into the same package. If I end up getting the game in a few days, it could end up being an issue, like it was for you, trancejeremy.


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## takyris (Nov 8, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, the trouble with that, is that it wasn't implied (though I can understand that as a Bioware employee, you might be sensitive to such slights, so my apologies if it seemed that way).  I wasn't irked at Bioware for not offering technical support - I was irked at nobody offering technical support.  When you finally get a game you've been waiting for, then get a stupid error message, it's very irksome.




Ah, my bad. I've been on other boards having to explain to people that, really, BioWare didn't make this one, seriously, not at all. Apologies for seeing a slam that wasn't there.

And yeah, the error message of doom after getting a long-awaited game is pretty much never fun. That was Half-Life 2 for me. "Why... are all... the placeables... DISAPPEARING!!!?"


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Nov 8, 2006)

Works fine for me. Fighter 4/ Sorc 1/ Dragon Disc 9. Proud owner of my own half-fixed castle.


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## Mycanid (Nov 8, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> An interesting premise. Looking for a cheap PCI-E card to tide you over until you make a bigger upgrade for Vista?
> 
> I don't disagree with the logic. I think it's reasonably sound. But the devil is in the details.
> 
> ...




Many, many thanks for the clarifications here Steel Wind.  You have been a big help and a wonderful source of info for me in general and in this thread especially, and I want to thank you for it (I am sure others are also grateful)!

On a personal level I am really not an avid gamer at all, and the 7600 card worked fine for me in a high card requirements game like Oblivion. I am still hopeful that as the weeks and months go by things will be smoothed out and issues with NWN 2 will come out and be addressed, and that the 7600 will work fine for me. Perhaps this is merely wishful thinking on my part ... I will cross that hurdle when I come to it.  But hey ... NWN 1 took some time to clear a bunch of things up, and it is still a wonderful game IMO.

Still the 7900 you recommended DOES indeed look like a good buy!

Once again, thanks for all your help and to all the other posters for their experiences of the game thus far - both satisfactory and frustrating.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 8, 2006)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> How do you check to see if you are running a 32-bit or 64-bit XP? My CPU is an Athlon 64, but when I got my computer I don't think I was actually aware that there was a seperate version of XP for 64-bit instead of them being built into the same package. If I end up getting the game in a few days, it could end up being an issue, like it was for you, trancejeremy.




It says it all over the place. Boot screens, the side of the start menu. It's only in professional edition, so I think it doesn't generally come with computers that already have an OS installed (they prefer the cheaper, Home edition).


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## ThirdWizard (Nov 8, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> An interesting premise. Looking for a cheap PCI-E card to tide you over until you make a bigger upgrade for Vista?




Thanks for the information! That's pretty much right on the money.

I'm putting together a whole new system. Right now the new stuff is going in my old computer, but I'm going to replace everything until I have a whole new machine over the next 4-6 months, hard drives and OS included. Then I'll put the old parts back together and have two machines. I'm thinking I might as well go Vista if I'm going to do that, whether by buying Vista or buying a pre-built PC and gutting it (or convincing my company that its a work expense - I am a programmer).

So, I'll think it over for a bit. I'm not buying anything until I get my paycheck in 2 weeks anyway.


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## Mycanid (Nov 9, 2006)

If anyone is interested, I just saw an advertisement for the nVidia 8800GTX and GTS cards (priced at 660 and 450 respectively - ::cough cough!!:: - that are billed as Direct X 10 technology.

Here's the 8800GTS at tigerdirect, for example: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...145-8002&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM1235CV

Anyway ... back to the thread!


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 10, 2006)

Well, so far, I mostly like the game. I have to say though, I think I liked the original NWN's story better. At least it had a lot more interesting NPCs.  So far it's pretty much class/race stereotypes.  The squabbling between them though is funny.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 10, 2006)

Played it briefly last night on my new system.  Essentially every feature on and maxed except water reflect/refract off and shadows one step back from max.  Resolution was 1680x1050.

Core system stats: Win XP MCE 2004, E6600, 2gig DDR2800, eVGA 7950gx2 in SLI mode.
Latest nVidia GeForce drivers; NWN2 ver 1.02 Sound is Miles 2D with onboard NForce 590 sound.

Results: DAMNED snappy. Whereas before with a Radeon x1600 Pro I had to reduce resolution greatly, turn down options and move the sliders so the camera was not so laggy, I now had to deliberately _increase _ lag to my camera by a LOT; otherwise, the camera became so twitchy it moved all over the place instantly.

The complaints regarding poor performance on high end hardware do not appear justified in my case - not even close.  Not too sure what the reported issues  are stemming from. Drivers not updated perhaps lacking SLI settings for NWN2, or perhaps EAX sound issues for those with a Xi-fi? Or, might just be just the water reflect/refract issue. Whatever the case, the game looks very good and the performance is all you will ever need to be able to play at a *very* comfortable frame rate.  I'll take some fps meaurements tonight.


----------



## Agamon (Nov 10, 2006)

While my PC isn't brand-spankin', out of the box, here's what I have: Win XP MCE 2004, A64 3800+, 2gig DDR2800, eVGA 7800GT, SB X-Fi Audio.  Latest drivers for everything. Ver 1.02 NWN2.

Cranked up, I get almost 8 fps.  Still playable, but I turned down a couple things to double the fps, which is a lot nicer.  Looking forward to Obsidian's fixes.


----------



## Turhan (Nov 11, 2006)

I've played about 10 hours now.  Very Happy, on the whole.  I haven't tried Multiplayer yet.

Athlon x2 dual core, 3800+;ASUS A8N-SLI mobo; 1 gig pc3200 ddr400; 2- SLI 6800GS cards; MAG 19" LCD monitor.

Game defaulted to pretty low settings but after the update it ran first try.  I nudged a couple settings up a wee bit and did not hurt frame rate- still very smooth and no 'hopping about' of anyone onscreen.

I'm going to turn it all up to high but leave off reflective water and the other Big Hits, just to see what happens....

As things are, I know my machine is pretty decent, but not leading edge, and accordingly I don't expect superlative avatars on screen, nor do I expect long vistas (like Oblivion).  In other words, If I pay enough money, I can make it prettier- but, I'm pretty happy where I am.  I'm going to play a bit more and see how the story goes and how much I end up liking it.  IF it gets a B+ grade or better, then I'll upgrade my older PC to something hot enough to play at home on my LAN (I have a friend who lacks the funds to upgrade all the time but he likes to play dnd, and I enjoyed the multiplayer side of NWN 1 a great deal).

As an end note here, I'd like to thank the many folks who've posted helpful info here and on the Bioware forums.  Special Thanks to Steel Wind, Trancejeremy and Takysis as you've been a bit more helpful for my own questions and have maintained very courteous replies here.  A general thank you to the rest of you for being polite in the face of some apparently frustrating situations.  Having been there with past games, "I feel your pain" with those Error Messages and count myself lucky to get this game running on the first try.


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## Neo (Nov 12, 2006)

Had it for a few days now on the whole quite pleased.  Im running it with an ABIT Radeon 9600 Series graphics card which is below the minimum spec according to the box, but runs it without any problems at all, and not even at minimum settings.

The Game has been enjoyable though the Camera control can be pretty horrible, your either too far away in order to see everything in which case you cant make much out or too close (like when you go in dungeons, caverns etc..) in which case you are frequently obscured by terrain.. so tweaking camera position is pretty much done via necessity during every individual encounter ongoing..which is a pain.

All the prestige classes are nice though wish there had been some for ALL the classes.. no druid prestiges at all at the moment (Shifter never made it to NWN 2),

Quickcast menu is a godsend..freeing up your toolbars for items and feats.

On the whole very nice.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 12, 2006)

Neo said:
			
		

> All the prestige classes are nice though wish there had been some for ALL the classes.. no druid prestiges at all at the moment (Shifter never made it to NWN 2)




Just to be pedantic a bit, technically Druids can take Warpriest levels pretty easily.  Not sure why you'd want to... in fact, I'm not sure I'd take it with a Cleric either, but that's another statement.  I think there were technical reasons for not having the Shifter, but I'm not sure.  Maybe Steel_Wind can comment.


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## takyris (Nov 12, 2006)

Not Steel, so I'm not privy to the particular internal debate, but my guess would be that Shifter didn't make it because it's a PrC that only one class *can* take. I know there are others, but most PrCs are takeable by a decent range of classes. You can come into Shadowdancer, for example, as a Rogue, Bard, or Monk very easily, and with a Ranger with a few cross-class points in Tumble.

To be incredibly general and vague , there are two types of PrCs: specialty PrCs (new shtick not specific to one class) and combination PrCs (a PrC that more or less combines two classes). Specialty PrCs (like the Shadowdancer, for example) need to be accessible from several different core classes or class combinations in order to have enough "A lot of players will play this class" potential to be worth the scripting time. Combination classes (like the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster) can be pretty class-limited (with Arcane Trickster, you need Sneak Attack, so it's Rogue or nothing) as long as the class they're limited to is a popular one.

Shadowdancer: Bard, Monk, Ranger with a few Cross-Class points.
Eldritch Knight: Bard, Wiz/Sorc, or Wiz/Sorc+(Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian)

The Shifter makes great sense in a pen & paper game -- all the work is on the player's part. In a CRPG, though, the Shifter is an expensive class (programming-wise) with some fairly unique abilities (all the polymorphing), and the only people who ever see it are druids who want to do something beyond straight-class druid. That's a narrow enough niche that I can understand it not being worth it from a design perspective.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but that's how these decisions get made, generally. The Eldritch Knight may or may not have been a pain to code, but the programmers knew that a lot of people might see it, because a lot of wizards and sorcerers (and a few bards, too) would be willing to lose a few caster levels to be a decent combat-badass as well, and they could do so by adding fighter, paladin, ranger, or barbarian as well. That's a lot of potential class combinations that make Eldritch Knight viable.


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## Neo (Nov 12, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Just to be pedantic a bit, technically Druids can take Warpriest levels pretty easily.  Not sure why you'd want to... in fact, I'm not sure I'd take it with a Cleric either, but that's another statement.  I think there were technical reasons for not having the Shifter, but I'm not sure.  Maybe Steel_Wind can comment.




Warpriest is definitely aimed at clerics though, druids get no love in the prestige selection  

I kno2 Shifter caused no end of issues for some folks with NWN 1 but im hooked on any classes that either a) let me turn into a bunch of forms or b) let me summon a bunch of cool critters.. so I missed its absence.


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## Neo (Nov 12, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> Not Steel, so I'm not privy to the particular internal debate, but my guess would be that Shifter didn't make it because it's a PrC that only one class *can* take. I know there are others, but most PrCs are takeable by a decent range of classes. You can come into Shadowdancer, for example, as a Rogue, Bard, or Monk very easily, and with a Ranger with a few cross-class points in Tumble.
> 
> To be incredibly general and vague , there are two types of PrCs: specialty PrCs (new shtick not specific to one class) and combination PrCs (a PrC that more or less combines two classes). Specialty PrCs (like the Shadowdancer, for example) need to be accessible from several different core classes or class combinations in order to have enough "A lot of players will play this class" potential to be worth the scripting time. Combination classes (like the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster) can be pretty class-limited (with Arcane Trickster, you need Sneak Attack, so it's Rogue or nothing) as long as the class they're limited to is a popular one.
> 
> ...




Much of what you say is no doubt valid to some degree but I cant help but feel as a fundamental standard for the game every one of tha basic classes should have had some prestige option that catered to it and all of them do except druid and warlock, which as far as prestig'ing goes leaves characters of those base classes somewhat disadvantaged.  Hopefully they will get some prestige love in a future expansion.


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## takyris (Nov 12, 2006)

Neo said:
			
		

> Much of what you say is no doubt valid to some degree but I cant help but feel as a fundamental standard for the game every one of tha basic classes should have had some prestige option that catered to it and all of them do except druid and warlock, which as far as prestig'ing goes leaves characters of those base classes somewhat disadvantaged.  Hopefully they will get some prestige love in a future expansion.




I'm sure that that reasoning is why the Shifter was included in the Hordes of the Underdark expansion. Based on a quick NWVault check, you can take, without cross-class skills:

Divine Champion
Harper Agent
Frenzied Berserker
Neverwinter Nine
War Priest

(War Priest actually requires 5 ranks in spot, but Clerics don't get Spot, either.)

That's a partial list. I'm not including Weaponmaster, because no Druid would get all the feats required to get that class.

That said, with those possibilities right there, you've got a lot of combat potential that would let you take the paladin or barbarian angle, and you've also got a nice little stealth package in the Harper Agent, who advances your spellcasting class while giving you nice bardlike abilities.

Ultimately, though, you're right -- there aren't any PrCs that are custom-made for druids, although I'd argue that there are still classes that benefit them, and that are easily gettable. If you look at D&D Online, the two classes they didn't include off the bat (possibly still not?) were Druids and Monks, because Druids and Monks are the different-est classes out there. You can add Warlock in there as well -- while a ranger borrows from fighter and rogue, with some divine spellcasting, and a paladin is just a fighter/cleric with a few new abilities, Druids, Monks, and Warlocks are the niche-iest of the niche. They're also classes that are best served by single-classing all the way through, especially now that NWN2 has implemented "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" rules for those classes that have it in pen & paper.

They're just too different to be worth it -- too much work for very little end-user benefit, statistically speaking.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 12, 2006)

My guess (and that's all it is - a guess) is that the Shifter fell victim to 3.5 Rules enforcement at WotC.

NWN2 is a 3.5 compliant game. And polymorph of this kind is, generally speaking, now verbotten in 3.5.

It is also, from a QA perspective, an absolute horror.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 12, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> My guess (and that's all it is - a guess) is that the Shifter fell victim to 3.5 Rules enforcement at WotC.
> 
> NWN2 is a 3.5 compliant game. And polymorph of this kind is, generally speaking, now verbotten in 3.5.
> 
> It is also, from a QA perspective, an absolute horror.




The banning of Polymorph is an option, one they've enforced for their "Living" campaigns....but AFAIK, it hasn't been removed from the manuals or the SRD..

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Nov 12, 2006)

Has anyone figured out where to find William in Highcliff?  I'm ready to head to Neverwinter, but I haven't been able to find him, so I feel kind of bad leaving him lost in the woods, so to speak.

Banshee


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## Seeten (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm Lawful-Evil, so unless he wants to be my serf, he can stay lost. =P

I've had no graphical issues, although my Athlon 4200+ X2 dual core comp with 2gb of ddr 400 and x850xt has performed shockingly poorly. I have everything on medium and it still drags.

I cant wait for community made model improvements, the basic models suck, the heads are ugly, the hair is bad, etc.

I love the classes and races, excellent job translating, but I dont understand why they neutered my favorite PrC. (Pale Master. Its 9 +1 caster levels over 10 in 3.5, not every other, it was every other in NWN 1, not in PnP) Aside from that gripe, very pleased.

Complaints: I had to spend a full solid hour playing with the camera to become comfortable using it. Wow. Thats not user friendly.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 12, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Has anyone figured out where to find William in Highcliff?  I'm ready to head to Neverwinter, but I haven't been able to find him, so I feel kind of bad leaving him lost in the woods, so to speak.




Which one is William again?  Is he the one who ran off on his wife?


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## Banshee16 (Nov 12, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Which one is William again?  Is he the one who ran off on his wife?




I think so...his wife is looking for him, and she's getting mad at the elder for not sending out a search party.  Purportedly, he went out into the woods looking for wood or something, and was never seen again.  They think the lizardfolk may have got him.  I've cleared the ruins map, and the bandit stronghold map (as far as I know), and haven't found him yet.

Banshee


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## Agamon (Nov 12, 2006)

Spoiler for this quest:



Spoiler



He's outside the ruins.  Hang a left at the road coming down from the ruins (as though you're coming down that road) and there's a clearing near the lake to your left.  I spotted him easily coming out of the clearing where the two kids you need to rescue are.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 13, 2006)

While I'm mostly enjoying the game a lot, I have to wonder if it was sadly rushed (although obviously not for X-mas), because I've read some disturbing stuff about the plot.



Spoiler



Specifically, romance.  

In previous NWN/KOTOR games , you usually had 2-3 options of which NPC your character could have a romantic relationship with.  In this, there's apparently just one. 

Yeah, yeah yeah, I know it's not called "Harlequin Nights" but that was something I enjoyed in previous games with the engine, and from reading message boards, so did a lot of others.  And some say (though without any citations) that this was in order to get the game out quicker.

So color me disappointed. Especially for a male NPC, there's 3 obvious options, maybe more. It also cuts down the replay since you might want to play it as a member of each sex, but that's about it.

Although I was disappointed none of the romantic entanglements in the original NWN was never elaborated on in the 2nd EP (AFAIK, anyway, I sort of stopped playing about 2/3 into it). So maybe it's for the best.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 13, 2006)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Spoiler for this quest:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is this the clearing where there is 



Spoiler



a fire burning, and a tent and everything?  Right by the lakeshore?  I went there, and found the campsite, but no William.  If that's where he is, I'll go take another look....if he's not there, maybe there's a bug or something.


  I first went to that area with my familiar, to scout it out without being noticed, and just found the empty camp.

I'll take a look where you recommend.

Banshee


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## takyris (Nov 13, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically, romance.




I can partially answer this, not for Obsidian but from what I know from BioWare's experience with Wizards:



Spoiler



Wizards didn't want romances. If we pushed for romances, Wizards pushed back. That's why the romances you had in Hordes of the Underdark were so very understated. Wizards pitched their stance as "Romance could drive away our younger players, and it could open up uncomfortable territory, and we don't want to risk it, and it's not what D&D is really about."

This meant that on-screen decapitations were wonderful and fine, but a kiss between two consenting adults was not. If I'm remembering right, if you see a kiss animation in a NWN module, it's because somebody hacked it in there. Wizards did not want BioWare to make one.



So while I have been as skeptical as anybody about the story, and whether parts of it were rushed as they were in KotOR2, this is almost definitely not one of those situations. I'd say that this is Wizards flexing its muscles and Obsidian choosing to fight other battles elsewhere.

No idea whether Wizards is right or wrong to make that call, but it's their right to do so. Obviously, I'd prefer that things be different, but I'm 30, and my opinion is a bit different from those of the 13-year-olds they're trying to get to buy the game. They probably knew already that they had *my* money.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 13, 2006)

takyris said:
			
		

> I can partially answer this, not for Obsidian but from what I know from BioWare's experience with Wizards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wouldn't say this is limited to just Wizards.....it seems pretty prevalent in western, particularly American, cinema.  How many movies will allow kids....let's say 13 year olds, watch a bunch of "heroes" engage in gun battles with "villains" in the streets of major cities, or blowing up a villain's truck, throwing him out of a plane, or whatever?  But throw some pics of a woman's bare chest in there, or of consensual relations between two adults, and all of a sudden, it's an R movie.  

I remember when I worked at a video store like 12 years ago, when I would see parents put away a movie featuring a sex scene, because they didn't want their kids to see it, but pick up Rambo, or the Rock, or some other gratuitous action flick instead.  I mean really.  *That's* supposed to be more healthy?

What about the oddity of that incident with Grand Theft Auto, a game where players can spend hours killing people indiscriminately in the game......but at the end, there's a "sex scene" that could be unlocked via a code?  I mean, the player's just spent how many  hours killing fake people and committing crimes in the game?  Where's the love for a little life affirming scene at the end? 

I hadn't heard about the removal of the romances in NWN2, but am disappointed in the choice.  I honestly didn't come across them in the first NWN, so I didn't think they were included even there.  But I remember them fondly in BG2.  They gave a sense of depth and realism to the game....and a level of maturity (ie. well-adjusted, grown up, etc....I don't mean simply 18+), that most D&D games lack.

Banshee


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 13, 2006)

Hmmmm, well, this apparently is a hot issue on the official forums as well (14 page thread which then got locked, and a bunch of others (well over 100 responses when I did a search)

(Warning: Spoilers in thread in link !)

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=511257&forum=110&sp=0

There are some posts by one of the lead designer, pages 4-7.  Seems like they are saying it was deliberate (either for plot purposes, or because he simply doesn't like such things, or to save time, he's somewhat contradictory, which could mean he's covering for Wizards).

Whatever the reason, it stinks.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 13, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I
> I hadn't heard about the removal of the romances in NWN2, but am disappointed in the choice.  I honestly didn't come across them in the first NWN, so I didn't think they were included even there.  But I remember them fondly in BG2.  They gave a sense of depth and realism to the game....and a level of maturity (ie. well-adjusted, grown up, etc....I don't mean simply 18+), that most D&D games lack.
> 
> Banshee







Spoiler



Just to clarify, there is romance in NWN2, but there's only 1 option for it, for each sex. Which stinks because there are clearly more options that should be possible.  That's the disappointment.

I wasn't actually referring to the physical stuff (which I think is probably best left off camera, in order to give the characters some privacy).

Even if there was physical stuff, it wouldn't bump the rating up to Teen.  The Sims 2 has kissing, groping, "woohooing", even in public and in cars, and it's still just Teen rated. And the Sims franchise is the best selling PC game of all time, so it's not like it bothers anyone.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2006)

There are some romance options - just not many.

You need to appreciate that Hasbro Properties is the owner and ultimate licensor of this IP.  Their core business is not D&D; it is _Transformers_, _Monopoly_ and _My Little Pony_. Hasbro applies _a very different standard of review to electronic games than they do to printed PnP D&D products._They want electronic games to promote their brand with positives while bringing along with them none of the negatives.  The board of directors of Hasbro is a very conservative group.

The last thing they want to see is a same-sex romance or the implication of sex in their games. Why? Because they are in the toy business and their primary market is children under the age of 12. Thirty-five percent of the population in America self-identifies as conservative or evangelical Christian.

That's the way it is. This is about not having one of these groups take offence and go nuts on Wal-Mart and Target about their "evil and immoral games, harmful to children".

Is this ideal? No. Is it the developer's fault? No.  Nobody is asking you to like this, simply to undestand the rationale as to why this is so.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 13, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> The last thing they want to see is a same-sex romance or the implication of sex in their games. Why? Because they are in the toy business and their primary market is children under the age of 12. Thirty-five percent of the population in America self-identifies as conservative or evangelical Christian.
> 
> That's the way it is. This is about not having one of these groups take offence and go nuts on Wal-Mart and Target about their "evil and immoral games, harmful to children".
> 
> Is this ideal? No. Is it the developer's fault? No.  Nobody is asking you to like this, simply to undestand the rationale as to why this is so.





Sheesh, did you really have to start the Christian bashing? Like I pointed out, the Sims has all that sort of stuff, and somehow has avoided a boycott, and become the best selling PC game franchise of all time.

And did I ever say I wanted same sex stuff, or anything physical? No, I just wanted more choices than 



Spoiler



a hippie druid, which is far likely to offend conservatives more than just about anything else  . There are lots of other obvious choices in the game - Neeshka, Shandra (meant to be a false romance, which I think is unfair), Qara, Kana, even Captain Brelaine (the only attractive female in the game, character model wise IMHO)



And frankly, I don't know if it's the developer's fault or not.  While I believe Takyris, the NWN2 developer seemingly said it was a design choice on their part. And if you had your way, no one could ever criticize Bioware, Obsidian, or anything connected to NWN.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2006)

Jeremy,

I explained it as it was explained to me. I've developed a licensed product under these rules and provided you the whys and wherefores.

If you don't like that explanation - go believe whatever it is you choose to believe.


----------



## takyris (Nov 13, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> And frankly, I don't know if it's the developer's fault or not.  While I believe Takyris, the NWN2 developer seemingly said it was a design choice on their part. And if you had your way, no one could ever criticize Bioware, Obsidian, or anything connected to NWN.




Here's a complete guess, based on a) what I know of Wizards/Hasbro and b) what I know of Obsidian: they tried in good faith, pushed the envelope on the romances, realized that they'd bitten off more than they could chew with respect to Wizards/Hasbro when the smackdown over the romances came down, and were faced with either last-minute rewrites on a major scale or cutting the romances entirely. They opted to cut the romances rather than see them be ruined by forcing them to conform to standard.

Not a slam on Obsidian. Not a slam on Wizards. Not a slam on anybody. They tried, and they can say that it was their decision so they don't look like beaten animals, but the decision was the lesser of two evils.

Like I said, complete guess. Complete. I have no insider information. But that's the way it happens a lot of the time, and after it happens, it's pretty popular to turn it into "A great thing we decided to do." Slamming the people who are letting you use their ruleset rarely gets you kind words in future deals. It just makes you look unprofessional.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> And did I ever say I wanted same sex stuff




No, you didn't. The difficulty then comes with making sure you don't miss something so it doesn't happen unintentionally.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to bug-test for some of these issues?

Sure,  you sort out gender. But then there are race elements too. Halflings and human romances don't work very well. Elves and dwarves is a little odd too. Half-orcs? On and on it goes. Where do you draw the line?

And before you know it, you are spending most of your time making sure romance dialog does not trigger, as opposed to writing it.


----------



## Matchstick (Nov 14, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Is this the clearing where there is
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I read something that mentioned that he may not be there at night.  So I'd try both the nighttime and the daytime.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 15, 2006)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> I read something that mentioned that he may not be there at night.  So I'd try both the nighttime and the daytime.




I think that's exactly what it was....I went back again yesterday, and there he was.  Of course, he ran away, so it was kind of a waste, though it would be funny to come across him in another map where his wife was giving him a beating 

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 15, 2006)

The more I play this, the more I'm starting to think that KOTOR2's problems weren't that it was rushed, but simply that Obsidian doesn't make games I like. I found a lot of KOTOR2 to be tedious, and I'm finding a lot of NWN2 to be that as well. Some Most of the dungeons. Having to run around and backtrack to find "ore" to upgrade my troops armor. Etc. 

Similarly, I don't like how the NPC's stories unfold. In the original KOTOR (and NWN, I believe), it was sort of doled out gradually. But in this (and KOTOR2), you have to generally keep going through the same conversation tree, and hope something different shows up, or you have enough influence to get a different result.  But it's even worse in this. I don't know more about that elf hippie 30 hours into the game, than I did 3 hours - her conversation tree is still the same.  Or anyone else.  It's a shame, because they are interesting NPCs. 

It's actually funny, I've been writing a review of NWN2, and now I'm going back and reading a review I wrote about KOTOR2 (which I also didn't like), and I'm basically complaining about the same things.

OTOH, with something like NWN2, is the real value (or point) of the game just the toolset? I dunno. But for me anyway, being on dialup, means I can't generally play user made ones (too big in most cases) or constantly download patches/hak packs in most cases. So a moot point for me.

Anyway, it really makes you apreciate Bioware's efforts more though. I just wish they weren't going in the action RPG direction (Jade Empire, Mass Effect), which I can't play well.


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## Neo (Nov 15, 2006)

I love the new classes, the more 3.5 approach and the prestiges as well as ther sub races etc... however gripes so far would be.. 

*NEGATIVES*

items like helms not appearing on the NPC's very basic cheesey oversight, Influence thing again like Trance mentions with regard to the NPC's you just dont seem to learn anything about them,,also if things start going backwards influence wise thier arent enough actual instances to turn it around so a couple of off decision choices and you may as well forget that particular NPC as far as conversations go as you AREN'T going to learn anything full stop.

Camera control is hideous and far too often obscured by stuff, requiring constant tweaking..which is annoying.  Also NPC's getting stuck in corridors and rather than repositioning themselves so they can attack a foe they simply stand there in a combat stance and do nothing... so you have to pause, select them, move them yourself and unpause...which can be tedious.

Also the lack of appearance customisation during character creation beyond choosing a face, hairstyle and colours was a disappointment especially in a game that will be so massively played online as "Individuality" in a sea of others needs to be more extensive than just name.. lol  Cant even make a fat dwarf anymore 

NPC levelling.. to be honest if I cant multiclass them as "I" choose I dont really see the point of being able to level them as the decision isnt really mine..its the stories.

Graphical Improvement, they are nice the game is undoubtedly pretty..(though much of it is non interactable window dressing) perhaps I havent gotten that far yet but I had hoped to see some weather?

NPC control... can be a bit frustrating at times, I may be missing something but if i choose the rogue and want to scout ahead with her..how the heck do I stop the rest of the party from following the lead once she gets so far away..?  Also item control is pretty much integral once the npcs get a few items but I found iof they have craft alchemy skill and components it kinda shoots you in the foot as they start using components flask of acid, thunderstones etc... it would have been nice to have a use items but not craftable components option in the AI behaviour.  I also wanted to be able to have someone specifically use just ranged weapons in combat but the ai tends to have them switch out instantly and charge into melee?  I guess what im saying is the AI behaviour controls are fairly disappointing in how much can be controlled..you essentially have to switch everything off and micromanage every npc yourself in order to get any real effective or sensible use out of the npc's.  Its not bad so much as far too limited in how much say you can have on thier activities.

That is pretty much for the negatives..so far.

*POSITIVES*

As noted love the sub races (Though smurf sized elves...grrr... they should be tolkien sized lol) and the level adjustment.

Like the Warlock class its nice because its so different.

Prestige Classes like those, though more (which will no doubt come in expansions) would have been nice, as mentioned previously at least one option for every base class I feel should have been provided as standard before any other prestige classes were implemented, if only to ensure every base class had an "appropriate" option.  Yes some of the classes can make use of some of the other prestige classes, but that isnt really the point.

Single Player Game, its fun and interesting and the cut scenes and conversations can be pretty funny when the NPC's are involved.

Cloaks and Dresses.... about frikkin time lol and they look good to boot (hopefully rideable mounts will show up in a future expansion).

Crafting and Enchanting, I have to say I really like this system its much more expansive and interesting the NWN1's, only gripe so far is that producing nonmagical weapons and armour as far as the single player campaign goes is almost instantly made redundant by the time you get to a trader who actually does sell moulds and components to do so.  But besides that its a nice system (just remember not to sell every gem you find! lol)

Music, I really like the music especially the dramatic tunes some of them are very reminiscent of the kind of music we saw in the LOTR films and it goes a long way to building up excitement to tense encounters etc..


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 15, 2006)

Neo said:
			
		

> items like helms not appearing on the NPC's very basic cheesey oversight, Influence thing again like Trance mentions with regard to the NPC's you just don’t seem to learn anything about them, also if things start going backwards influence wise their aren’t enough actual instances to turn it around so a couple of off decision choices and you may as well forget that particular NPC as far as conversations go as you AREN'T going to learn anything full stop.




What you are asking for and classify as a "cheesey oversight" is, in fact, a CRAP LOAD of 3d modeling work. Each head in the game would have to receive one additional model, per helm model in the game.

I don't have the game on this computer I am writing from, but this "cheesey oversight" is certainly in the order of 500 additional models, at least.

There are technical reasons for these decisions.  I appreciate that you think the priority Obsidian attached to this is unsatisfactory. Fair enough. But this is not a "cheesey oversight". Not in the least. 



> Camera control is hideous and far too often obscured by stuff, requiring constant tweaking..which is annoying.  Also NPC's getting stuck in corridors and rather than repositioning themselves so they can attack a foe they simply stand there in a combat stance and do nothing... so you have to pause, select them, move them yourself and unpause...which can be tedious.




It's not wonderful, but I've gotten used to it.  I tend to use the free camera.  Please note that when in Free Camera mode, you can hold down control and left drag your mouse to slide the camera to a new position.  Combined with holding down the mouse wheel to reorient the camera - this gets me through things quite serviceably.



> Also the lack of appearance customisation during character creation beyond choosing a face, hairstyle and colours was a disappointment especially in a game that will be so massively played online as "Individuality" in a sea of others needs to be more extensive than just name.. lol  Cant even make a fat dwarf anymore




I gather that what you wanted to see was a facial system like Oblivion's combined with phenotypes as existed in NWN1?

Phenotypes add massively to model overhead, worse than open-faced visible helms do.  That said, I understand the desire. Request is duly noted.



> NPC levelling.. to be honest if I cant multiclass them as "I" choose I dont really see the point of being able to level them as the decision isnt really mine..its the stories.




Yes and no. Moreover, I suggest you get used to this, as this will be the case in the vast majority of community created mods as well.

This game is not NWN1.  From a designer's perspective, you have *no idea * what a relief that is.

In NWN1, because there was no direct control of henchmen, certain abilities, skills and definitely spell use could not be assumed to be "party assets".  This meant, from a practical perspective, that _the designer had to create a module that could be played by any one single class and race._

This "one size fits all" design forced by NWN1's limitation broke the underlying assumption in  D&D's rules which assumes a party based game. Where the PnP rules balance rules for a party based approach - that same approach broke the underlying design of NWN1.

To make a module challenging for one class and yet completable for all others became an elaborate strait jacket on module design.  We HATED this. And  don't mean just a little - we REVILED this design limitation. Worse, the difficulties this presented increased vastly as the level of the characters went up.  There is a term we used to describe this "feature" in NWN1: it was called "suckage".

NWN2 relieves the designer from having to face this problem. Companions are controllable and all spells, feats and skills that the designer assumes will be in place in the party are, in fact, usable and reasonably in place.

What you, as a player, want to be able to do is to interfere with the leveling options for the NPC and thereby have complete control over the NPC character build. While that is understandable, the problem it presents is that by giving *you* that power, it also enables *you* to mess up the designer's plans and to unwittingly remove - by your own choice - an assumed ability, skill, feat or spell from the party.

Your choice will, as often as not, break the design of the module.  You are, in fact, exchanging choice for enjoyable and balanced gameplay.

So - while I understand your desire, you better get used to it. You are in for a lot more of the same from well crafted community modules.  And there is a damn good reasons for it too.



> Graphical Improvement, they are nice the game is undoubtedly pretty..(though much of it is non interactable window dressing) perhaps I havent gotten that far yet but I had hoped to see some weather?




Weather is being enabled in a patch. It was removed during the beta cycle when a problem arose.



> NPC control... can be a bit frustrating at times, I may be missing something but if i choose the rogue and want to scout ahead with her..how the heck do I stop the rest of the party from following the lead once she gets so far away..?  Also item control is pretty much integral once the npcs get a few items but I found iof they have craft alchemy skill and components it kinda shoots you in the foot as they start using components flask of acid, thunderstones etc... it would have been nice to have a use items but not craftable components option in the AI behaviour.  I also wanted to be able to have someone specifically use just ranged weapons in combat but the ai tends to have them switch out instantly and charge into melee?  I guess what im saying is the AI behaviour controls are fairly disappointing in how much can be controlled..you essentially have to switch everything off and micromanage every npc yourself in order to get any real effective or sensible use out of the npc's.  Its not bad so much as far too limited in how much say you can have on thier activities.




No AI will make everyone happy. One option for you to explore is to activate "puppet control" over all NPCs.  This puts you in direct control off everyone in the party and the game plays much more like BG2.

It permits you to choose strategies and tactics within combat that actually work. Potions and spells are kept in reserve, fighters hold the front line and a Wizard hangs back (reliably) and waits for his moment, etc..

In short, it plays much more like a PnP session of D&D.


----------



## Simplicity (Nov 15, 2006)

If you don't want Puppet mode, you can also just hold down right-click anywhere other than on a clickable object/character.  There's a broadcast command option there.  "Hold your ground" will tell your party to stop following you already.


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## messy (Nov 15, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> You can have up to four classes.




good to hear  

nwn1 only allowed up to 3 classes (total)  

i'm also eagerly looking forward to getting my copy  

messy


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## Bozon Bob (Nov 15, 2006)

I have just recently completed the official campaign.  Overall the game is definitely worth the time/money investment.  It feels very much like KOTOR/KOTOR 2 most likely because it is the same engine.  The storyline is far superior to the first NWN but did feel a bit unpolished to me.  There are moments in the game that feel truly epic and parts that are brilliant role play wise.  However there are also many places with little or no reason as to the actions of NPCs and the game definitely suffers from a major case of railroading that may bring back memories of some of the dragon lance modules.  The ending sequence with the BBG felt very much like a PS2 game were you have to beat the “End Boss” multiple times.  The ending was also very disappointing in a blatant “we want to make a sequel” sort of way with a voice over that sounds like they forgot to record it and some programmer had to do it at the last second. 
	I think that if they had spent another month or two on the plot adding a few more dialogue options along the way explaining a bit more about why some of the NPCs did what they did or why some of the bad guys chose to do some of the things that the game would have felt much more immersive.  To me, besides the linear nature of the game that is mainly due to the nature of the genre, the main downside was the large amount of bugs.  I have a P4 2.8 GHz, 1.5 gig mem, Nvidia 6600 system and the game froze probably 3 dozen times during the campaign.
	Despite the problems listed above I did think that it was the best story since the BG games.  As the bugs are fixed and the community starts cranking out modules I hope that the game will have the same lifetime as its’ predecessor.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 15, 2006)

Bozon Bob said:
			
		

> I have just recently completed the official campaign.  Overall the game is definitely worth the time/money investment.  It feels very much like KOTOR/KOTOR 2 most likely because it is the same engine.




I'm pretty sure it's not the same engine, but then again I still haven't gotten around to playing either KOTOR.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.  Some NPCs I like (Khelgar, Sand, Neeshka, Shandra) but the rest of them kinda fall flat.  Especially Elanee, Casavir, and the cleric.

Also, regarding the Cleric, whose name I don't remember at all... it kind ticks me off that you *have* to use her for the section of Act 2 to progress the story.  Well, let me rephrase... using her doesn't, what ticks me off is that you have to spend a slot on her, when I pretty much have my group established already.  Doubly sucks because her dialogue isn't that great.  Usually when you're forced to use them it's only for their individual sidequests.  They should have handled it differently, IMO.  Then again, I'm not a game designer.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> What you are asking for and classify as a "cheesey oversight" is, in fact, a CRAP LOAD of 3d modeling work. Each head in the game would have to receive one additional model, per helm model in the game.




The way I understand it, the NPCs use custom heads, and there's clipping issues with displaying the helmets on them.  Neeshka seemed to be the worst, but there were issues for many of them.  So instead of getting complaints about clipping, they chose to not display the helmets.  Somehow, I'm thinking, with regards to appearances, Obsidian just isn't going to win no matter what they do or did, no matter why.


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## Neo (Nov 16, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> What you are asking for and classify as a "cheesey oversight" is, in fact, a CRAP LOAD of 3d modeling work. Each head in the game would have to receive one additional model, per helm model in the game.
> 
> I don't have the game on this computer I am writing from, but this "cheesey oversight" is certainly in the order of 500 additional models, at least.
> 
> There are technical reasons for these decisions.  I appreciate that you think the priority Obsidian attached to this is unsatisfactory. Fair enough. But this is not a "cheesey oversight". Not in the least.




Ill tell you why i call it a cheesey oversight...  firstly if i put any weapon or any armor, cloak etc..on an NPC then just like the PC's thier avatar changes to reflect it.. however if i put a helm on them it doesnt on any except my Main PC.. to that extent it shows that they were aware of the issue but either thought it wasnt important enough or there were as the previous poster mentions possibly issues..either way that makes it cheesey because in this day and age having a game correctly display what you hold/wear is almost "standard" as far as all games in this genre go, so why should we the consumer make exceptions on standards for this sequel..when developer aside the supposedly inferior predecessor game managed to provide on this front?

Its not like every thing in the game needs to show them, just those we the player "Play". because those are the ones whose appearance we are constantly aware of.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 16, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> There are technical reasons for these decisions.  I appreciate that you think the priority Obsidian attached to this is unsatisfactory. Fair enough. But this is not a "cheesey oversight". Not in the least.




This makes sense.  It does remind me of PS:T however, where no matter what equipment the NPCs wore, it didn't change their appearance in the slightest.  That having been said, I can understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I gather that what you wanted to see was a facial system like Oblivion's combined with phenotypes as existed in NWN1?
> 
> Phenotypes add massively to model overhead, worse than open-faced visible helms do.  That said, I understand the desire. Request is duly noted.




I'm not sure I'd personally vote for a system like Oblivion's.  I've got Oblivion and it is *hard* to make a character who doesn't look like Cro-Magnon or some form of genetic aberration.  I'd be satisfied with a patch or expansion giving us more pre-made heads and hairstyles.  A "grow/shrink" system like in Guild Wars would be icing on the cake, but lower priority to me.

Banshee


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## Agamon (Nov 16, 2006)

Honestly, the look of my PC with her headgear is a little annoying.  The skullcap she used to wear made her look bald, now the mask she's wearing makes her look like she's heading to a costume ball.  Darn the munchkin in me that wants the nifty powers from the stupid looking headgear.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 16, 2006)

They should have had a toggle on/off. I like how my PC looks with one of those swashbuckling hats on, but a lot of the headgear is kinda dorky looking.


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## D'karr (Nov 16, 2006)

Neo said:
			
		

> Ill tell you why i call it a cheesey oversight...  firstly if i put any weapon or any armor, cloak etc..on an NPC then just like the PC's thier avatar changes to reflect it.. however if i put a helm on them it doesnt on any except my Main PC.. to that extent it shows that they were aware of the issue but either thought it wasnt important enough or there were as the previous poster mentions possibly issues..either way that makes it cheesey because in this day and age having a game correctly display what you hold/wear is almost "standard" as far as all games in this genre go, so why should we the consumer make exceptions on standards for this sequel..when developer aside the supposedly inferior predecessor game managed to provide on this front?
> 
> Its not like every thing in the game needs to show them, just those we the player "Play". because those are the ones whose appearance we are constantly aware of.




NWN1 did not offer open faced helms at all.  If you had a helmet on, your mug would show  a CLOSED face helm.  That is significantly less modeling work, since it only requires one helmet model per helmet, regardless of sex or race.  BTW, many people complained about this fact in NWN1 too.

Just as an example, let's just say that there are 7 races.  Each with 2 sexes.  That is 14 heads models, with no variety between characters at all.  All human males will look the same and all female half-orcs would be the same.

If you decided to add any variety, let's say 5 different faces for each sex you are now talking about 70 head models.  So  now you can have 5 different faces for each sex and race.

If there are 20 different helmets you are now talking about 70 models for characters without helms and 1400 models for those with helms.  For a whooping total of 1470 head models.  I'm not a 3D modeller and my attempts are pathetic at best.  But lets just say that it takes 30 minutes to model each head model.  It would take approximately 92 man days to complete the modeling work, just for faces.  That is 3 months of solid work just on that "cheesy oversight".

I think the developer had higher priority things to concentrate on just to put out a functional game.


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## Thanee (Nov 16, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I gather that what you wanted to see was a facial system like Oblivion's ...




Oblivion's facial system is utter crap. It's next to impossible to make anything remotely decent-looking with that, unless you spend hours only creating the face (and even then it's far from great).

Such a system must be extremely simple (a couple choices, like body-type, face-type, hair-style, various colors, some extras (tattoos and stuff), etc), highly variable (thousands of different looks) and very effective (they must all look cool in some way and appeal to a wide range of players).

Bye
Thanee


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 16, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's a little different here, since it gets imported (ordered the english-language version), but I got an E-Mail, that the delivery is delayed three days, so I should get it next week.
> 
> Getting original-language games is really silly around here. You have to send in a copy of your passport so they can make sure you are age 18+, because only german titles are rated and the rating does not apply for the original (since it could be different in detail), and therefore the original is always rated the highest (and thus cannot be sold openly in stores and all that stuff). They also can only send it in a way, that it is given *directly* to you, and noone else, not even if they have a legal authorization and are clearly above 18 years.
> 
> ...



This might be to late, but I bought the game at amazon.de and there were no complications with my ID or other things. The version of the game allows you to choose the language freely (okay, I am only certain about English and German, but who needs more  ), and I chose English. (Don't like to guess what the feat, class and creature names mean in english D&D 3.5 terms  )


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 16, 2006)

I am currently experiencing a strange problem with the game - when I am saving, Texture data seems to be unloaded - certain parts of the game (like the items in the inventory) because replaced with generic "Texture Missing"-icons and similar effects. In addition, I can't start dialogues. If I exit the game and reload the save game, the problem disappears, until the next save. 

I am running the game on a Athlon64 XP 3000+ processor with 1024 MB RAM under Windows XP Professional (32, not 64 Bit), with a ATI Raedon 9600 graphics card (128 MB).


----------



## Simplicity (Nov 16, 2006)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I am currently experiencing a strange problem with the game - when I am saving, Texture data seems to be unloaded - certain parts of the game (like the items in the inventory) because replaced with generic "Texture Missing"-icons and similar effects. In addition, I can't start dialogues. If I exit the game and reload the save game, the problem disappears, until the next save.
> 
> I am running the game on a Athlon64 XP 3000+ processor with 1024 MB RAM under Windows XP Professional (32, not 64 Bit), with a ATI Raedon 9600 graphics card (128 MB).




It really sounds like your graphics card is having a hard time keeping up with all the data.  I'm assuming you've tried lowering the shadows.  Also try reducing the resolution and the texture sizes.  

I got it working on an ATI Radeon 9800 on medium shadows and 1280x1024.  But when I went higher, I would start to lose things (like the Save button wouldn't show up on a save).  You're definitely going to have to go with lower settings.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 16, 2006)

D'karr said:
			
		

> If there are 20 different helmets you are now talking about 70 models for characters without helms and 1400 models for those with helms.  For a whooping total of 1470 head models.  I'm not a 3D modeller and my attempts are pathetic at best.  But lets just say that it takes 30 minutes to model each head model.  It would take approximately 92 man days to complete the modeling work, just for faces.  That is 3 months of solid work just on that "cheesy oversight".
> 
> I think the developer had higher priority things to concentrate on just to put out a functional game.




Couldn't they just follow the way that the Sims 2 does, and simply merge the model of the helmet over the model of the head? (or replace it, if it's a closed helmet) Yeah, you occasionally get clipping issues, but it's much nicer all around (and less work).


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 16, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Oblivion's facial system is utter crap. It's next to impossible to make anything remotely decent-looking with that, unless you spend hours only creating the face (and even then it's far from great).
> 
> Such a system must be extremely simple (a couple choices, like body-type, face-type, hair-style, various colors, some extras (tattoos and stuff), etc), highly variable (thousands of different looks) and very effective (they must all look cool in some way and appeal to a wide range of players).




Yeah, but that's only because by tradition, everyone in an Elder Scrolls game is ugly. Similar facial systems have produced good (and attractive) results in games like The Sims 2 and the Movies.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 16, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Couldn't they just follow the way that the Sims 2 does, and simply merge the model of the helmet over the model of the head? (or replace it, if it's a closed helmet) Yeah, you occasionally get clipping issues, but it's much nicer all around (and less work).




Um, that's what they do now, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.  If you mean a sort of physics-y draping effect, I have the feeling that while it may be possible out of battle, there is just WAY too much going on in battle CPU wise to make that possible.

Besides, there'd be hell if there were clipping issues too.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 16, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Um, that's what they do now, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.




Well, D'Karr was saying they weren't, that each head and helm/hat combo was a different model done by a modeller, not stuck together in the game, and what I was responsing to.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 17, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, D'Karr was saying they weren't, that each head and helm/hat combo was a different model done by a modeller, not stuck together in the game, and what I was responsing to.




Ah.  I'm not sure if that is the case or not.

BUT, what I suspect is that since heads for different races are made at different scales, making a universal helm is problematic.

Again though, I don't know.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 17, 2006)

Isn't one of the things of being in 3d, that you can re-size them on the fly in a game? Like Guild Wars, you can change the scale of your character, and the size of the equipment changes to fit your guy.  (Or again, in the Sims 2, you can actually change the height of the character, but they sort of left that out - other than a cheat code - because the animations don't quite match up - like if two sims kiss and aren't the same height, one kisses their chin.)


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## dpdx (Nov 19, 2006)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Honestly, the look of my PC with her headgear is a little annoying.



Which is why its called, "helmet hair."  Don't worry, my PC looks like a dork, too, but I sure like the extra +1 to CON.

I'm getting extremely annoyed at two interface things as I play more:

I really, REALLY miss the Radial menu.

And in conjunction with that, I really, REALLY miss how you could drag ANYTHING off that Radial menu onto the Quickslot bar.

My dwarven tank in 1 had a 1st Quickslot bar of Imp. KD, Imp. Disarm, CS Arm, CS Leg, melee weap/shield combo, 2nd melee weap/shield combo, ranged weap, heal pots, pots pots pots. It was gorgeous, and I could put it together from squat in about 5 min.

I don't even KNOW how to put KD or whatever on the 2 Quickslot bar. And rumor has it that there are certain things I can't put on the bar, as in not allowed.

Between those two annoyances and things like cameras and party AI, I'm nearly ready to chuck this thing and go back to 1. I'll at least wait until I can get through the single-player quest, but still. This is a drag.

My opinion of NWN2 has gone down considerably since my first post to this thread.


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## green slime (Nov 19, 2006)

*Nwn2*

So far, the NWN2 single player mode is a disappointment, IMO. It may have redeeming factors in the DM mode or ease of creating new modules, but I don't know about those.

I wish they'd spent more investing in the actual game rather than the pretty graphics. Distinct .feeling of railroading 

I don't appreciate non-Intelligent NPC party members self-destructing.
Lots of other little things bugging me. How do I access my paladin's Lay on Hands?!?
Personally I prefered ToEE, even with its bugs, than this.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 19, 2006)

green slime said:
			
		

> So far, the NWN2 single player mode is a disappointment, IMO. It may have redeeming factors in the DM mode or ease of creating new modules, but I don't know about those.
> 
> I wish they'd spent more investing in the actual game rather than the pretty graphics. Distinct .feeling of railroading
> 
> ...




In a kinda clunky way - go to the character's feats list, and drag LoH to the quickbar.  Alternatively, though I don't use the Paladin NPC, you can right-click on a target.  What you learn from being a Bard.

Like dpdx, as I've played the game, my opinion has generally turned for the worse, at least with regards to the OC.  The game definitely could have used a couple more months in development - though I suspect Obsidian didn't have a choice in the matter.  I wonder about the beta-testing that was done on the game... some of the bugs I've experienced or read about seem like they should have been caught pretty quickly.

Most of all though, I'm very frustrated with the general hack-and-slash of the game.  I played a Bard because I didn't want to have to resort to fighting all the time.  I know it can't be avoided (this _is_ D&D after all), but it just seems to me that if you aren't a combat machine, you totally get the shaft.  Specifically, any time I have to fight by myself, I usually get reamed and end up having to replay it a couple of times no matter what.

For two specific examples that come to mind, in spoiler text:

(Act II)



Spoiler



When the githyanki attack the inn, I finally realized the only thing I could do to survive was use Haven Song, run to the common room, and _stand there_.  Sure, I used some inspirations to help my allies, but basically I was standing there.  Any time I engaged, the enemies just cut me down.



(Act III)



Spoiler



Right in the beginning, getting to Nasher.  Again, I'm just getting mowed down, nothing to do about it.  Only reason I got through the first group of enemies was a Gem of Brightness.



I was excited to try out different characters in a replay through the OC when I started, especially a Warlock.  Now, I'll be waiting for some fan-made modules to do that.

There were some good moments, yes.  In particular, the start of Act II was a piece of cake as a Bard.  For every instance like that though, there's an instance like the Bard-off in Blacklake, where my Perform skill didn't even matter.  Only got through that because I was going to major in music, and I'm good at intervals.

Like I said, I've pretty much descended into frustration and a desire to just get through the game to get it done.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 19, 2006)

green slime said:
			
		

> Lots of other little things bugging me. How do I access my paladin's Lay on Hands?!?




For accessing all matters like this, hit C to pull up the character sheet.

Scroll through the feats and abilities tab entries.  Lay on Hands is there with an Icon by it.

Use it there - or drag the icon on onto your quick bar.  You can access it there from now on.

The same approach works for disarm traps, etc.  

Hitting "B" for book opens up the spellbook - again - same idea. Drag and drop spell icon on quickbar.

F for the quick cast menu works better for this, however, imo.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 19, 2006)

Just out of curiousity, LP, did you play KOTOR2? What did you think of that? Because your statement _"I've pretty much descended into frustration and a desire to just get through the game to get it done."_, pretty much described my feelings about both games (once I got into them).


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 20, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, LP, did you play KOTOR2? What did you think of that? Because your statement _"I've pretty much descended into frustration and a desire to just get through the game to get it done."_, pretty much described my feelings about both games (once I got into them).




No, I haven't... it came out when I was working at the hospital here, so I've missed a lot of stuff over the last two years.  Best life move ever to leave!

I think there's a general trend towards grinding in RPGs, both console and computer, and if you're not into that, or your time is somewhat limited, then you tend to leave a lot of games unfinished.  I fall into the former group, and previously fell into the latter as well.

I remember Piratecat saying something about the way he runs his game, and I'm going to paraphrase.  He basically said that he tries to get a decent balance between the three cornerstones of adventuring - combat, puzzles, and talking/diplomacy.  I definitely do not feel there is a balance in NWN2 at all.  Puzzles are few and far between, and the only real example of talking/diplomacy is the start of Act II... otherwise it's all just to avoid battles.


----------



## green slime (Nov 20, 2006)

Thanx for the tips on how to get LoH to the quickbar.

I'm getting quite irritated at some of the behaviours exhibited by some NPCs: Commander Tann rushes in and starts bashing in boxes, even while the rogue is picking the lock. I couldn't change his behaviour at all.

Seriously, did Oblivion think that this "behaviour" was a great improvement in gameplay? Why this cludgey system which fails to consider the fact that players may not appreciate weakened NPC characters charging between groupings of enemies which are beyond the PC's visual range (the screen)? 

Secondly, considering the purpose of this "game" it would have been nice, if there was a way to create PC characters without having to start a module or campaign, in order to have a battery of characters available for various campaigns. 

I find the user interface not at all to my liking. I keep finding strange bugs that irritate me; however none that affect gameplay. Fancy graphics with lips-synced dolls just don't cut it for me. I want an intuitive interface and great story. I'd be happier with a goldbox game, to be honest.

As a DnD junkie, I'll play through the darn thing, but I'll not recommend it as a solo RPG experience. It is a real shame my ToEE play-cd got scratched. Now I can't find the game in a shop here. I'll be lurking for a copy of that over the internet once I recover from the Xmas crucifiction of my wallet.

Lets hope NWN2 redeems itself with a strong showing from the community. Because as a solo game, it doesn't have the merits I'm looking for.


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## Jeremy (Nov 20, 2006)

If you want to roll up a battery of premade characters for various campaigns check out this module.

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=23#Files

It's a quick loading 2 room module that has NPC's to add or take away levels, buy or craft equipment, and a danger room to spawn appropriate level enemies to test things out.  It's a good lab, a great training excercise, and a passable character generator for NWN2.

There's probably better, but this is the one I know about.

Just don't forget to export your character after you are done tinkering with him.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 20, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> For accessing all matters like this, hit C to pull up the character sheet.
> 
> Scroll through the feats and abilities tab entries.  Lay on Hands is there with an Icon by it.
> 
> ...




I've found a lot of those features, and, admittedly, there is a lot that you can do that could be done in NWN1.  I'm not sure why it was decided to get rid of the radial menu though.  The new system does almost as much, but it's still a step backwards.  Instead of a click system like NWN1, you've got to open up different menus, click a bunch of different keys, etc.

One of my biggest frustrations is not being able to hotkey weapon combos.  I've got the tiefling armed with a shortsword and dagger...but I have to ready both weapons.  If I hotkey them, it seems to have to be done separately for each weapon....so if I hit the key for shortsword, she pulls out the shortsword.  But if I then hit dagger, she puts away the sword and pulls out the dagger.  If I want her to use both, I have to open the inventory every time, and manually add the dagger as her offhand weapon.  I'm a player who changes tactics and armaments frequently according to the situation, and this makes it far, far less easy to use than the NWN1 menu.

Something else I'm finding annoying, while going through the warehouse, is why enemy rogues can just start sneaking effortlessly over and over in combat....either that, or stay sneaking while making one sneak attack after another against Khelgar.  My rogue can't do that, so why can they?  They're supposed to be "effortless" encounters, yet they're not, because they bend the rules.

And the party grouping system from KOTOR is kind of unsuitable here.  It makes it hard to move the group around, because the other characters always want to run back to the leader....even when that leader is sneaking up on a group of opponents, or trying to position for a fireball, etc.  And they end up triggering extra encounters I'm not ready for.

I love the graphics....NWN1 is fairly ugly at this point....but I can see where some of the complaints are coming from.  NWN2 does feel more like a railroad.  There are few options other than fighting.  Even when a conversation tree leading into a quest indicated that I should capture some guards who were on the take, when I actually run into them, there are no options to subdue them, or do anything other than kill them.

The fact that so many environments seem to really restrict where I can go, unlike in NWN1, where you could walk almost everywhere, except for across streams, or up hills, if there was no incline, is rather disappointing.  It gives me that "too engineered" feeling, which is unfortunately starting to really bug me with 3.5E.

That having been said, I still think the storyline is much better so far than that of NWN1.  Maybe, because I'm still in Act 1, I'm not far enough in, but I'm impressed so far.  None of them will compare with BG2 though.

As to bugs, I haven't encountered any.  Yet.  Not sure what to be watching out for, but it hasn't crashed on  me or anything like that.

Banshee


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 21, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> One of my biggest frustrations is not being able to hotkey weapon combos.  I've got the tiefling armed with a shortsword and dagger...but I have to ready both weapons.
> 
> Something else I'm finding annoying, while going through the warehouse, is why enemy rogues can just start sneaking effortlessly over and over in combat....either that, or stay sneaking while making one sneak attack after another against Khelgar.  My rogue can't do that, so why can they?  They're supposed to be "effortless" encounters, yet they're not, because they bend the rules.
> 
> ...




Two-Weapon hotkeys are supposedly coming in the next patch.  This is a perfect example of something I would think would have been done before the game came out, but wasn't.  Not sure why this wasn't an issue in the beta-test.

The "Effortless" thing is meaningless.  If you're a tank fighter, maybe, but if you're not a pure fighter, you generally get the shaft.  Though I don't think I ever will, if I do play through it again I'll probably be using Khelgar, Casavir, and maybe Neeshka if not Bishop or Z-lady.  I'll play an Arcane Trickster, to cover magic and stealth, and be sure to always take Summon Monster.

The AI is kinda crummy, but if you want true tactical control, you REALLY need to put everyone on puppet mode.  It would be nice if there were a key to cycle through the characters, like Tab.  I know about F1-F5, but I'd like one button to just choose the next PC.

I'm really liking the storyline, and there's some great stuff in Act I and Act II.  I just don't like some of the design decisions they made.  If I ever make a module, there are definitely things I'd do differently.  Of course, I'm not a game designer either, so eh.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 21, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I'm really liking the storyline, and there's some great stuff in Act I and Act II.  I just don't like some of the design decisions they made.  If I ever make a module, there are definitely things I'd do differently.  Of course, I'm not a game designer either, so eh.




This is something I'm curious about.....is the "railroading", and lack of ability to wander something built into the engine?  Or simply the way the designers created the module?

I don't mean to give the impression that I dislike the game.  I definitely like it.  But I've also found some of the parts, like the reliance on combat etc. to be a little frustrating.

The fact that characters (and, I assume, monsters) have full hp makes things even more frustrating, because it makes the ability of wizards etc. even weaker.  When an opponent gets full hp/HD, doing 3.5/lvl with a fireball, before the save, starts to look rather weak.  It's balanced when that fighter is averaging 5.5+CON/lvl.....but when it's 10+CON/lvl, that's a different matter.

The game is definitely better in some ways.  It's far more immersive, and the implementation of races, subraces, and much of the roleplaying aspects is far better.  It just feels that when I encounter hostiles, I get very little chance to do anything but fight.

Banshee


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## Thanee (Nov 21, 2006)

Just the module, of course.

Bye
Thanee


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 21, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> This is something I'm curious about.....is the "railroading", and lack of ability to wander something built into the engine?  Or simply the way the designers created the module?




As Thanee said, just the module.

For one example of a design decision I don't think, read my posts above about playing a Bard, and the disparity between fighters and non-fighters, specifically tanks and non-tanks.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 22, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> As Thanee said, just the module.
> 
> For one example of a design decision I don't think, read my posts above about playing a Bard, and the disparity between fighters and non-fighters, specifically tanks and non-tanks.




Hmm....I guess that's a fault in the main campaign then.  I still like the game though.  And I'll keep at it until I get through it.  Given that I just went to Owl Well, I gather I have a long way to go yet.

Overall, I'm really liking it....I've just noticed, and been bugged by a few of the things I've heard mentioned here.  But I haven't had the bugs I'm hearing about from others.

One thing that did annoy me is the glaring differences between prestige class prerequisites between what it says in the manual, and what is required in the game.  I wanted to go Eldritch Knight, so I read the manual, and started piling up cross-class ranks in Diplomacy, Survival, etc.  Given Diplomacy requires 8 ranks (lvl 13 at cross class), it was going to take a long time to get into the class.  But then, I learned ingame, that apparently the manual is wrong....so now I've wasted 8 points to get 4 ranks in diplomacy, and another 4 points to get 2 points in survival.  And I actually don't need those skills!  Grr...oh well.

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 22, 2006)

The only gamestopping bug I ran into personally (more a reload earlier save and don't do that again bug) was in Jerro's haven.  Be sure to save before you touch the book you find near the imp.  If you pick the wrong choice, you can gum things up.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 23, 2006)

Has anyone else found that the feat "Practiced Spellcaster", which is shown in the  manual, doesn't appear to be in the game?  I just progressed to Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight3, and for my lvl 9 feat, wanted to take the feat, which has Spellcraft 4 for the prerequisite, according to the  manual, but it wasn't anywhere in the pick list for feats...

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 23, 2006)

That's a bug - or rather, it's not in the game, or apparently not enabled.  Presumably it will be added in a patch.  There's a few threads on it on the offical boards, I think.


----------



## KenM (Nov 23, 2006)

I was looking at my local Best Buy add. On this Friday and Saturday, they will have Neverwinter Nights 2 on sale for only $24.99.


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## Kaodi (Nov 24, 2006)

After my chaotic neutral half-elven warlock was ruined by a bug causing Bishop to go hostile and attack the party in the keep, I am finally in the end game with my lawful good human wizard. I didn't even bother to craft custom stuff using my bzillion gems and quintrillion essences. I'll probably to load the backup save at some point just to see what I can make. Damn powerful gem scarcity!


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 25, 2006)

I've found ore deposits in three places in the game.  They're clickable, but don't seem to add anything to my inventory.  And I get XP when I find them.

I would assume that I'm supposed to use some form of tool or skill to get ore out of those deposits.  Which tool is it, and where would I find it?  Or which skill should I be using?

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 25, 2006)

When you get your keep, you'll be able to recruit a couple of miners (and some minors as well, actually).  You just talk to them and they go off and dig up the ore for you. You need to do this to upgrade your guys armor and weapons.


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## KenM (Nov 26, 2006)

After playing around with it for a couple of hours, I have a few thoughts. 

1. Why did they keep the excatly the same voice sets from NWN 1? I thought since it was a new game, they would redo the voice  sets. 

2. Why do they list every weapon for weapon speciality, ect? They way they did that in NWN 1 was better. 

3. I could not select my feats, skills when i started my characters. 

4. I like dwarves, how come they could not put in a beard for dwarves that was NOT braded and had decorations in it? I just wanted a basic beard.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 26, 2006)

For 3, you have to pick "Customize" after you pick your class. Otherwise you go with a preset package


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## KenM (Nov 26, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> For 3, you have to pick "Customize" after you pick your class. Otherwise you go with a preset package





  I should have remembered that from NWN 1.


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## BlueBlackRed (Nov 26, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> 1. Why did they keep the excatly the same voice sets from NWN 1? I thought since it was a new game, they would redo the voice  sets.



My guess is money.
Rather less to be paid out for something already recorded. And possibly ease of programming. But either way it's $$$.


----------



## Kaodi (Nov 26, 2006)

They added a couple of new ones, didn't they? Or maybe I am misremembering...


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 26, 2006)

I'm pretty sure they added some new ones too Kaodi.  

To answer why they would keep the old ones, why not?  Why throw out the old ones when they're still good?


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## Banshee16 (Nov 27, 2006)

KenM said:
			
		

> After playing around with it for a couple of hours, I have a few thoughts.
> 
> 1. Why did they keep the excatly the same voice sets from NWN 1? I thought since it was a new game, they would redo the voice  sets.
> 
> ...




They did the same thing when they created BG2.  Lots of the same voices.  It's a sunk cost.  Why not reuse them?  They did add new voices for NWN2 though, didn't they?  I seem to remember that the voice list wasn't nearly as big for NWN 1 as it is for NWN2.

As to the weapon specialties, I have no idea.  It's not the friendlist interface this time around.

As to dwarven beards, who knows?  I could say the same thing about facial hair period in the game.  There is basically the choice to have it, or not to have it.  But there are no choices for *types* of facial hair....ie. mustache, goattee, big fluffy beard, handlebar mustache, etc.

Banshee


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## Kaodi (Nov 28, 2006)

I may be mistaken, but I think I have discovered that the Lightfoot halfling is completely worthless as a race in this game, as written.

Lightfoots have +1 racial bonus to saves. Stronghearts have a bonus feat. With that bonus feat, a Strongheart can take Luck of Heroes, with grants a +1 luck bonus to all saves, and a +1 luck bonus to AC. And since I haven't seen any other luck bonuses to not stack with, that essentially means the luck bonus is just as strong as the racial bonus, and Stronghearts rule the day, every day. 

Essentially, why would you play a Lightfoot when you could play a Strongheart with Luck of Heroes?


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## werk (Nov 28, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> To answer why they would keep the old ones, why not?  Why throw out the old ones when they're still good?




Because it is a new game?  Why buy NWN2, when NWN1 is still good.  Why don't resteraunts serve left-overs...they're still good.

I haven't bought it yet, simply because the packaging looks just like NWN1.  For being the most creative game on Earth, we're really getting mediocre D&D computer games IMNSHO.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 29, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> Because it is a new game?  Why buy NWN2, when NWN1 is still good.  Why don't resteraunts serve left-overs...they're still good.
> 
> I haven't bought it yet, simply because the packaging looks just like NWN1.  For being the most creative game on Earth, we're really getting mediocre D&D computer games IMNSHO.




If you're making that judgement based on the packaging, I'm not sure you're using the best criteria to make your decision..

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 29, 2006)

Eh - when SSI had the AD&D license, they pumped out what, 11 of those Gold Box games. And I bought every single one when they came out (except the Buck Rogers, and that was because it didn't have Twiki in it)


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## Matchstick (Nov 29, 2006)

Bidi bidi bidi.  Good choice Buck.


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## Michael Morris (Nov 29, 2006)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I may be mistaken, but I think I have discovered that the Lightfoot halfling is completely worthless as a race in this game, as written.
> 
> Lightfoots have +1 racial bonus to saves. Stronghearts have a bonus feat. With that bonus feat, a Strongheart can take Luck of Heroes, with grants a +1 luck bonus to all saves, and a +1 luck bonus to AC. And since I haven't seen any other luck bonuses to not stack with, that essentially means the luck bonus is just as strong as the racial bonus, and Stronghearts rule the day, every day.
> 
> Essentially, why would you play a Lightfoot when you could play a Strongheart with Luck of Heroes?



 I play a lightfoot with luck of heroes - which stacks with the racial +1 bonus to saves  Along with lightning reflexes and the troublemaker feat my reflex save is INSANELY high.


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## werk (Nov 29, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> If you're making that judgement based on the packaging, I'm not sure you're using the best criteria to make your decision..
> 
> Banshee




I feel obligated to retort.

Packaging is merely the first in a series of things that were not updated in the new NWN.  They had a good idea, and now they are milking it...consider AoE3.  AoE1, great, AoE2, awesome, AoE3, sadly disappointing.  In an effort to improve they lost direction.

They didn't make a new game, they just rehashed the original, in the process, losing a lot of the appeal that the first game had.

That said, packaging is very important, for many reasons.  Don't judge a book by it's cover, but a lot of work goes into book covers...


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## Michael Morris (Nov 29, 2006)

: shrug :

I didn't buy NWN2 for the game - I bought it for the toolset. That alone justifies the cost to me (I'm sketching out doing a module for it now).


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## Banshee16 (Nov 29, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Eh - when SSI had the AD&D license, they pumped out what, 11 of those Gold Box games. And I bought every single one when they came out (except the Buck Rogers, and that was because it didn't have Twiki in it)




The Gold Box games were nice at the time, but infinitely simpler than today's.  I'm not sure they can be compared.  NWN2 actually has a much more faithful implementation of the D&D ruleset than NWN 1 did.  At the simplest level, no more super-familiars.  Magic item creation is much more like the core rules than it was in NWN 1, etc.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 29, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> I feel obligated to retort.
> 
> Packaging is merely the first in a series of things that were not updated in the new NWN.  They had a good idea, and now they are milking it...consider AoE3.  AoE1, great, AoE2, awesome, AoE3, sadly disappointing.  In an effort to improve they lost direction.
> 
> ...




I guess everyone looks at it differently.  Glass half full vs. half empty.  I see a *tonne* of things that were updated.  And I don't see voices (and music) getting reused as a negative.  It's like Star Wars....they didn't completely change the themes from one movie to another.  The music built on itself, and some of the same songs, or rhythms were used from one to another.  Same with BG 1 and 2, same with NWN 1 and 2.

They changed the interfaces, the graphics engine, the implementation of the D&D rules, made it work better in single-player mode, changed the GUI's.  I mean, really, it's a very different game.  Is it perfect?  No.  But I haven't seen a perfect game.  I think my favourite has been BGII....and I never finished that one.  I think I ended up in Chapter 6.  Storywise, PS:T all the way.

It's never had anything to do with the art on the box.  I simply feel that NWN2 is getting a disproportionate amount of flak compared against the quality of the game.  I think that a lot of people set their expectations so high that there was no way they could ever have satisfied everyone.

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Nov 29, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> The Gold Box games were nice at the time, but infinitely simpler than today's.  I'm not sure they can be compared.  NWN2 actually has a much more faithful implementation of the D&D ruleset than NWN 1 did.  At the simplest level, no more super-familiars.  Magic item creation is much more like the core rules than it was in NWN 1, etc.




Well, I dunno about that - 1e was a lot simpler to implement than 3e, period, but I dunno if it was infinitely simpler. It was weird multclassing/dual classing rules.  But anyway my point was, I was perfectly happy buying those games, despite them largely being the same exact engine, with the same exact boxes (other than the centerpiece art shot). So I think complaints about NWN2 being too close to NWN1 (in packaging and the program itself) is a bit silly.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 30, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, I dunno about that - 1e was a lot simpler to implement than 3e, period, but I dunno if it was infinitely simpler. It was weird multclassing/dual classing rules.  But anyway my point was, I was perfectly happy buying those games, despite them largely being the same exact engine, with the same exact boxes (other than the centerpiece art shot). So I think complaints about NWN2 being too close to NWN1 (in packaging and the program itself) is a bit silly.




It's a good point.  They looked *exactly* the same, except each was a new question.

However, were they really simpler to implement?  I thought one of the big points WotC made about the changes in 3E, things like having high rolls for everything, instead of Thac0, which went down with level, was to make it easier for computers to calculate..

Banshee


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## Agamon (Dec 1, 2006)

I haven't looked at the toolset at all yet.  How useful would it be for setting up scenes from tabletop games?  For example, in my AoW game, the party recently fought Shukak the lizard king from EaBK.  Would it be easy to set up the battle and take screenshots of the ensuing fight?  That would be totally cool.


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## Blastin (Dec 2, 2006)

Has anyone looked into aany persistant worlds yet? Would be cool to get on a PW with some fellow ENworld'ers for some NWN2 fun


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## Banshee16 (Dec 3, 2006)

Blastin said:
			
		

> Has anyone looked into aany persistant worlds yet? Would be cool to get on a PW with some fellow ENworld'ers for some NWN2 fun




Agreed.  If anyone finds one, post it here.  I suspect that it will be a few weeks still.  I've seen postings in various places about several in the process of being created, but nothing's done yet.  I haven't even tried multiplayer yet.

The game's going to start playing better soon.  Apparently the 1.03 patch is almost ready.  They've got a beta version that is available for download, but the "legit" patch isn't out quite yet.  In any case, a coworker of mine installed the beta patch, and he said that he's jumped from around 14 FPS to over 30, and that it now plays like a totally different game.

I'm curious about whether any of these patches will eventually unlock feats and such that had been removed from the game....ie. Practiced Spellcaster et al.  Apparently there are several prestige classes, plus the Ghostwise Halfling race, which are already in the code, but had been turned off.  On NWN Vault there's a crack that unlocks several of those.  But I'd really like to see an official Obsidian patch to fix that stuff, so that I don't get banned from multiplayer games for using a "hack" to restore something that's already in the game.

Banshee


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 3, 2006)

It's my understanding that those prestige classes might not be working correctly, and that's why they were disabled.

I haven't played the game since I've last posted.  I keep meaning to, but something always seems to come up to distract me.  Guess my desire to play just isn't there any more.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 5, 2006)

I noticed something funky last night.  My F1/W5/EK4 just made it to EK5, and I noticed that the default "naked" paperdoll for my character (ie. default lvl 1 appearance) seems to have changed.

It was as lvl 1 until now, but I noticed that no matter whether I'm wearing gear or not, my character appears to be wearing the Mage Battle Robes that she's been wearing pretty exclusively the last few levels.  Even if I pull them off, all that happens is that the same model for robes is used, but they switch colours to the white and cream colour scheme that my lvl 1 outfit used to be.

Is this a bug?  Or does your "default" look change if you wear certain gear for a long time, or maybe change at a certain level?

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Dec 5, 2006)

Another thing....just used that girl sorcerer in my party for the first time and noticed:

1-Sorcerers rock.  Even with the delay in casting time when using Metamagic feats, Empowered Fireballs are fun   Especially when you toss out a web or Evard's Tentacles first, then drop a fireball on them.

2-The computer AI is moronic. Even on the reserved spellcasting mode, that sorcerer consistently wipes out the party if I'm not the one controlling her.  She drops those Empowered Fireballs on the other party members if they're meleeing with enemies....and if somebody melees her, she'll drop the Empowered Fireball on it, and kill herself and her enemy at the same time.

Not very good programming of AI.

Incidentally, I've noticed that the Githyanki mages will lightning bolt my party, even when their buddies are in the way....but the lightning bolts don't hit their buddies.  If I shot a lightning bolt through my friends to hit a monster however, it would damage my party members.  Not quite fair.

Banshee


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## trancejeremy (Dec 5, 2006)

You pretty much have to turn the friendly fire causes damage setting off, otherwise it's just a pain.


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## ThirdWizard (Dec 6, 2006)

I just turn spellcasting off for  party members and manually do all spellcasting.

However, there's work going on on improved AI scripts, which I will definitely look into when those are finished. Fan-made AI looks to be turning out very good, from reports I've heard.


By the way, I went with a Duo 2.4 Conrad, 1 GB RAM, and a GeForce 7600 GT, running NWN2 off of a SATA 3.0 Gb/s Hard Drive, and the game runs beautifully at the highest possible settings. I get a little slowdown on the docks when I'm looking out at nothing but water, but other than that, I've never had frame rate issues.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 6, 2006)

I just installed the new patch last night, updating to 1.03, and the game is way fast now.  It was always playable, but now it's pretty smooth.  No more sluggishness.

Haven't been back to the docks yet, so I don't know how it is with the water.

Still curious with the weird thing going on with my character's appearance.  I suspect it must be a bug.

Banshee


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 6, 2006)

Yeah, I turned off all of the AI for my casters.

Also, I managed to cheese my way through the end of Act II finally, only to have the game crash.  Grr...

I'm on Act III now, and I've pretty much done all of the side-quests, AFAIK.  End has to be coming up soon.

If I play through again, I'm going to play a Rog/Wiz/SToA/Trickster on Hard Mode.  Then I'm going to take Khelgar and master hammers, Casavir, Bishop as ranged support, and the Golem.  It'll be great.


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## Justin Cray (Dec 7, 2006)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I'll probably to load the backup save at some point just to see what I can make. Damn powerful gem scarcity!




This might be a bit late, but you can combine essences to create more powerfull essences. You can even degrade them!

Also nice: finding named items and improving them. You can change their name then, too!

Nobody talked about the ending, so I will just say this: you wont get a movie (like the sweet intro), and that sucks.


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## Kaodi (Dec 7, 2006)

??

How do you combine and degrade essences? By putting two of one kind on the alchemist bench and using the mortle, and by using the mortle on a single essence? In any case, if you are a hardcore crafter, like my second character, who had every single crafting feat and all the good crafting skills (no traps), material scarcity and gem scarcity are far more influential that essences... I had so many essences it took the bag of holding an a greater magic bag to hold them all without weighing my character down. Err, well, metals and woods aren't scarce, but the rarer ones are a little too... rare. I was only able to find two red dragon hides. I mean, how is a dragon disciple supposed to have ultra cool red dragon scalemail if you are one hide short?

Anyway, I already saw the ending, and it is kind of disappointing. I imagine it changes slightly depending on what you do though. Certainly seems like they are setting it up for an epic-level expansion though. It would be cool having a completely planar campaign, starting out in Limbo with the githzerai clerics home citadel.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 8, 2006)

Have they patched the game to allow you to map dual-wielded weapons to one slot yet?  I haven't figured out how to do that.

Banshee


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## Matchstick (Dec 8, 2006)

I think that was in this latest patch, 1.03.  I now have a button that will equip a weapon and a shield with one push, and they've also added that hitting the button again will unequip the items.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 11, 2006)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> I think that was in this latest patch, 1.03.  I now have a button that will equip a weapon and a shield with one push, and they've also added that hitting the button again will unequip the items.




I've figured out the whole thing with hitting the button a second time to unequip an item.  But where is the dual-wielding button? I haven't figured out how to do that...

I *have* updated to 1.03..

Banshee


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 19, 2006)

Drag the second weapon (or shield) on top of the first one in your hotbar.

I _still_ haven't finished it, but I'm near the end of the game.  Honestly, at this point in time I don't think I'm going to bother.  I'm just too frustrated.

I hate having characters I don't care about or use shoved off on me, that's a personal thing.  At least one, at the end of the game, I would think about using.  When half of my party isn't my choice, that's a problem.

I hate how the encounters are set up, with enemies appearing suddenly right on top of you, with no warning, every time.  It makes no sense.  I _know_ it can be done differently, I know several different ways how.  Heck, one of them has been proven by the PW folk to work better speed-wise!

I hate that, three patches in, major problems with the AI for Bards and Warlocks have not been fixed.  Specifically, Bards using abilities even if "Use Abilities" is off, and The Warlock casting "The Dead Walk" over and over instead of, you know, a combat ability?  More so, going and attacking instead of DOING WHAT THE CLASS IS MADE FOR!!!  Grrr.

On a similar note, I hate the AI overall.  That wouldn't be a problem, except controlling all of your characters manually is rediculously clunky.  Which wouldn't be a problem if even the most basic AI worked right.  Currently, IMO the only thing that does in the least bit is Fighters, because they run up and hit stuff.  Even then, it's iffy sometimes.

Sorry for the rant.


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## Morrus (Dec 19, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I hate that, three patches in, major problems with the AI for Bards and Warlocks have not been fixed.




Ah, you're one of the lucky ones who _can_ patch your game, huh?  Some of us are still stuck on 1.0.0.


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## Thanee (Dec 19, 2006)

Heh. I will just sit back and wait until it has been patched up nicely, while my copy collects some dust on the shelf (ok, not really; it's not even on the shelf). I can wait. Besides, my computer will probably require some upgrading, anyways, before it can be run decently. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 19, 2006)

Looks like I'll hold off on this one for a good while until they patch the heck out of it.


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## Kaodi (Dec 19, 2006)

I don't mind having to control my characters individually, but when Grobnar repeatedely uses the wrong freakin' inspiration, it really TICKS ME OFF!   

One thing I find with the story over Neverwinter Nights OC, is that even though it is a zillion times *better*, it's harder to want to play through just for the sake of seeing a different prestige class or combination of classes (and races). Hopefully in an expansion, the NPCs themselves will have a more replayable aspect to them. That said, I do like the game as is. Once they get all of the bugs ironed out, it will have lived up to my expectations I think, completely.

As I recall, most people thought the story in SoU and HotU was tons better than the NWN OC. Now, imagine they could improve on NWN2 OC that much. If that were to happen, I wouldn't be surprised if they no longer think of the BG series and Torment as the high water mark.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 19, 2006)

Alright, because I'm a firm believer in balance, and since my last post was a bile-filled rant, I'm going to talk about the parts that I like.  Really, if there wasn't a lot of it, I wouldn't nearly be so upset.  So, good stuff.

Dialogue for most of the character is, IMO, pretty good.  There are a few characters I'm not so fond of dialogue-wise (Zhajave, Elanee, Casavir).  Grobnar gets a pass _mostly_ because he has some great stuff with the others.  Though I'm entirely convinced it's impossible for Bioware or anyone associated to write a decent Bard.

There are some great scenes in the game.  Specifically, in Act II (



Spoiler



The Trial, and The Haven


) and in Act III (



Spoiler



The Siege


).

I like what they did with crafting.  I'd like a little more robustness and some more Wonderous Items, but overall it's pretty great.  I also like how they handled dissecting animals (using Alchemy to get essences).

Aside from Qara's idiotic AI (which, given her character, is amusingly apt), I like what they've done with spells, overall.  The Quickcast panel is a great addition (as are the Mode/Bard bars), I love how the spell shows the exact area of effect before you cast, and I love the special effects.  Lesser and Greater Missle Storm are still overpowered though.

There are a few challenging fights that are really fun, that I don't particularly want to spoil, so in spoiler font, 



Spoiler



The final Githyanki attack, Lorne, the Red Dragon, the Black Dragons, Ammon Jerro


.  Though I will point out that these are all pretty well laid out... which is the exception, rather than the rule.

Companions are leaps and bounds above what they did in NWN1.  I like the companion/henchman dichotomy that is set up (companions are fully controllable, henchmen can only be commanded via Party Control).  I would like to see some incarnation of Formations, and the ability to summon more than one creature (though I have an idea for doing this via scripting and the OnHeartbeat event).

The toolset is a LOT more powerful.  I'm looking forward to some of the fan-made modules to come out.  Area design in particular is very powerful, and some beautiful areas should be able to be created with it by the community.


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## D'karr (Dec 20, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The toolset is a LOT more powerful.  I'm looking forward to some of the fan-made modules to come out.  Area design in particular is very powerful, and some beautiful areas should be able to be created with it by the community.




Have they specified when a DM Client will be available?


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## werk (Dec 20, 2006)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> : shrug :
> 
> I didn't buy NWN2 for the game - I bought it for the toolset. That alone justifies the cost to me (I'm sketching out doing a module for it now).




How's that toolset working out for you?


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## Banshee16 (Dec 20, 2006)

I have to say that NWN 2 finally tought me how effective a well-prepared mage can be against a melee character.  In my PnP games, the mages have always been slaughtered.

In the fight with L in Act II, I'd heard about it being difficult.  But I wanted my character to do it...the articles I'd read said to use Khelgar.  My character is a F1/W5/EK6.

So, at the start, my first action, standing at the other end of the arena, was to cast Stoneskin.  L starts running at me.  I cast Mirror Image.  He starts swinging, I cast Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, and he slows down.  I back off a bit, he chases, I drop Bigby's Hand (the lvl 5 one that gives a -10 to hit) on him.  He started chasing me around, and I kept running, trying to get room to cast spells.  Couldn't get away, as I'd forgotten Haste.  So, I turned, and started beating on him.  A few rounds later, I took him down to really low hp, and he goes into a rage.  I used Invisibility, ran away (and he still chased me, so that didn't work). I kept running until his rage wore off, then whipped out my bow, shot him, and the fight was over.

I didn't get hit a single time.  Not bad 

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Dec 22, 2006)

Hmm...found something really odd last night...probably something done when they were trying to balance the game.  I created my first scroll, using Bigby's Hand (the lvl 5 one).  It cost me 1800 gp to make the scroll.  It is far, far less to buy it from a merchant.  I think it was about 500 gp to purchase.  Why so much more to make it?  That makes no sense.

Banshee


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## D'karr (Dec 22, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Hmm...found something really odd last night...probably something done when they were trying to balance the game.  I created my first scroll, using Bigby's Hand (the lvl 5 one).  It cost me 1800 gp to make the scroll.  It is far, far less to buy it from a merchant.  I think it was about 500 gp to purchase.  Why so much more to make it?  That makes no sense.
> 
> Banshee




It might be that the scroll is created at your caster level rather than minimum caster level.  That would make it more expensive.  Unless you are at the minimum caster level in which case I don't know...


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## Calico_Jack73 (Dec 28, 2006)

I got NWN2 as a gift for Christmas but my poor 2Ghz P4 machine isn't up to specs based solely on the processor.  I'm looking at getting a new machine in the coming year but I am torn between getting a 3+ Ghz Pentium 4 processor or going with a 2.4 Ghz Dual Core.  If NWN2 wasn't coded to take advantage of the dual core then the performance on the game should be pretty crappy.

Has anyone played it on a dual core 2.4 Ghz machine?  If so, how does it play?


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## BlueBlackRed (Dec 28, 2006)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I got NWN2 as a gift for Christmas but my poor 2Ghz P4 machine isn't up to specs based solely on the processor.  I'm looking at getting a new machine in the coming year but I am torn between getting a 3+ Ghz Pentium 4 processor or going with a 2.4 Ghz Dual Core.  If NWN2 wasn't coded to take advantage of the dual core then the performance on the game should be pretty crappy.
> 
> Has anyone played it on a dual core 2.4 Ghz machine?  If so, how does it play?



I'm running the game on a 2GHz machine, and although not ideal, it still runs well. The 2GHz is the only thing I have that is slow for the game though.

Wow...2GHz is slow now.
Man, my first PC was 75MHz with no vid card, sound card, and only 4MB RAM.
And that dwarfed my very first computer, a CoCo.


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 28, 2006)

Core 2 Duo E6600 - plays great.

The game is GPU bound, not CPU bound.  Your video card is the more important factor to good performance.

The toolset is coded for dual core, btw.


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## Deuce Traveler (Jun 30, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Dialogue for most of the character is, IMO, pretty good.  There are a few characters I'm not so fond of dialogue-wise (Zhajave, Elanee, Casavir).  Grobnar gets a pass _mostly_ because he has some great stuff with the others.  Though I'm entirely convinced it's impossible for Bioware or anyone associated to write a decent Bard.




I know my comment is a bit late, but I've only just now gotten around to playing and beating NW2.  First, I want to say that I've found the game to be incredibly buggy despite the amount of time that the game has been out and the latest patch I downloaded.  The game crashed a number of times despite my having a new computer and video card.  The AI was also problematic, and there was a bug that occurred that often caused members of my party to just stand around during battles or to suddenly stop following the party leader for no apparent reason.

Despite that, I felt that the game was much better than Neverwinter Nights 1.  The NPCs had personality and I actually felt much more immersed in the gameworld, though the Baldur's Gate series and Planescape: Torment are still tops in this regard.  I think that the designers were trying a bit too hard to reclaim that glory, for there is a character in the game that is a poorly written attempt to recapture the awesomeness of Dak'kon from Planescape.

(Know, Zhajave, that you will never be as cool as Dak'kon... never ever.)

A number of the NPCs were more annoying than anything else, although I was surprised by how much I found myself enjoying Khelgar Ironfist's company.  Sand was also a character that grew on me.  Most of the female NPCs were developed with highly annoying personality traits, and it made me wonder what kind of ladies those Bioware guys dated.  The annoying Qara had some characteristics similar to Ignus, again an NPC from Planescape, because of her magical powers and fascination with fire.  But she lacked the tragic and interesting background of Ignus, and so was a one-dimensional NPC.  Also, the voice actress of Qara sounds like it might have been the same as an equally annoying character in the latest Leisure Suit Larry game, so all I could think was how much I hated both characters.

So to wrap things up, the NPCs are much better in NWN2 than they were in the original NWN, although they still weren't as well developed as those in Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment.


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## Rl'Halsinor (Jul 2, 2007)

Deuce Traveler, your post comes at a most opportune time for me because I have been seriously considering buying this game, but I have a few questions for you:

1. What video card do you have?  I have an X800 GTO 256 mb DDR3 but only with 12 pixel pipelines and since this is such a graphics demanding game I am wondering if my card can even handle it.

2. Did you ever figure out what was causing the crashes?  Even with the latest patch there are still glitches?  What was the latest patch you used?

Thanks.


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## takyris (Jul 2, 2007)

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> Most of the female NPCs were developed with highly annoying personality traits, and it made me wonder what kind of ladies those Bioware guys dated.




Nitpick: NWN2 was done by Obsidian, not BioWare. All praise and scorn goes to the folks in California, not we happy few in Alberta.


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## Deuce Traveler (Jul 2, 2007)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Deuce Traveler, your post comes at a most opportune time for me because I have been seriously considering buying this game, but I have a few questions for you:
> 
> 1. What video card do you have?  I have an X800 GTO 256 mb DDR3 but only with 12 pixel pipelines and since this is such a graphics demanding game I am wondering if my card can even handle it.
> 
> ...




No problem.  I'll do my best to answer.

1.) A higher end card for me: NVIDIA GForce 6600, so I'm not sure I can really help you there.  The graphics were definitely better than NWN1, but still comparable if that helps.

2.) I never found out what was causing the glitches in regards to the NPC AI going kaput, but it did seem as if it happened when an NPC named Qara was in the party and also when a lot of party members were in the party at once.  It almost seemed as if the program couldn't handle all the processes.  The patch I had was 1.04 English, I believe... or maybe 1.4.  It automatically asked if I wanted to download the latest patch from the homepage when I installed it.  Also, during the cut scenes the game would often crash if it had been running for awhile.  If I was lucky enough to remember to save often enough, I would run NWN2 again and reach the same place but that time have no issues.  The game also seemed rushed, since there were several mini plots that never seemed to have a way to get resolved and important NPCs with interesting backstories, but no quests attached.


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## Deuce Traveler (Jul 2, 2007)

takyris said:
			
		

> Nitpick: NWN2 was done by Obsidian, not BioWare. All praise and scorn goes to the folks in California, not we happy few in Alberta.




Doh! Thanks.


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## Banshee16 (Jul 8, 2007)

Not sure if it's just the setups people have, but I've almost finished the game, and it hasn't crashed once.  Haven't had any problems with it whatsoever, aside from the slowness initially, but that was fixed with one of the patches that boosted FPS.

Banshee


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## Rl'Halsinor (Jul 9, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Not sure if it's just the setups people have, but I've almost finished the game, and it hasn't crashed once.  Haven't had any problems with it whatsoever, aside from the slowness initially, but that was fixed with one of the patches that boosted FPS.
> 
> Banshee




Can you give us your system specs and what patch you used?  Thanks.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 9, 2007)

My specs with no issues playing NWN2:

GIGABYTE ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz
EVGA GeForce 7600GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card
Crucial 1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200)
Windows XP SP2 later updated to Vista 32-bit Business Edition

With this setup, I could run at full power and never had any fatal bug problems (can't recall any bugs at all).


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## Scorch (Jul 10, 2007)

For those looking for something to do in NWN2 after finishing the OC I would recommend the following:

For single player adventures:

Night Howls in Nestlehaven

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=151

An excellent Level 10+ adventure with plenty of action, side quests, and a decent story to boot.

Tragedy in Tragidor

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=83

A good level 6 adventure.  Very nice story and plenty of bad guys to beat up.  A translation from a past NWN1 adventure.

If you do not have a character of the appropriate level then you can use this to level them up and equip them:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=14

If you want to try out Persistent Worlds (aka Game Worlds) then there are two decent ones out that I have been tooling around in:

Dasaria 2

http://www.dasaria.net/forums/

A very well thought out game world with active dungeon masters that made the jump from Pen and Paper to NWN1 and now to NWN2.  Very gorgeous maps and no lag that I have seen so far.  Role Playing oriented.

Dungeon Eternal X

http://www.dungeoneternal.com/phpBB2/portal.php

Nothing but action here.  Just a few town hubs surrounded by wilderness and dungeons of increasingly hard Challenge Ratings.  Also, the PVP flag is turned on so you may run across someone who picks a fight but for the most part people are just looking for some adventuring partners.

Both PWs will require you to download and install a PWC file which you can get from the above links.

And finally, I would be remiss not to mention the Neverwinter Nights Podcast which broadcasts weekly and is up to Episode 29:

http://nwnpodcast.com

Later,

Scorch


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## Deuce Traveler (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks, Scorch.  I've moved onto FF12, but I am looking at getting some more bang for my buck out of my copy of NWN2 and will likely come back to it and try a couple of these.

Can someone tell me his or her experience playing in persistant worlds?


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