# Treasure in adventure paths



## RangerWickett (May 13, 2011)

We assume as a baseline that your characters in the ZEITGEIST adventure path will work for the Royal Homeland Constabulary, a Risuri organization created by King Aodhan to monitor threats to his nation, both home-grown and from foreign lands.

Today, I wanted to present an excerpt on how we'll be handling treasure. Please, let us know your thoughts.


*Treasure, Salary, and Requisitions*
As constables of Risur, your characters have a slightly different relationship with treasure than typical *Dungeons & Dragons* adventurers. 

In heroic tier you receive a combination of salary and official stipend to fulfill your duties, and the Constabulary’s resources and connections let you easily purchase or requisition the tools you need for your missions. Likewise, you can easily trade in items you no longer need, which can be used by other constables or local police. When you recover rare magic, treasure, or other valuables, you are expected to hand it over to higher authorities, who will make proper use of it. If desired, you can use your salary or stipend to acquire these items for yourself, assuming you file the proper paperwork and your request is deemed warranted.

In paragon tier, your actual salary becomes relatively inconsequential compared to the contacts and allies available in most major cities, who can help you procure whatever you need. You will be entrusted with great wealth, and given leeway to retain and exploit items you recover in your missions. If deemed worthy, you might even be granted access to precious relics held in the Risuri royal vaults.

In epic tier you will have at your disposal the wealth of entire cities or nations, to buy things any sane person would consider priceless: weapons forged from the essence of whole demi-planes, rituals that harness the collective will of a thousand state mages, long-forgotten artifacts unearthed by the concerted efforts of an entire nation’s adventurers, all toiling to aid you, their god-like champions. Of course as the campaign begins, affairs of this grandeur are nigh-unthinkable, for no mortal has gained such power in a thousand years or more.


*Working for a Living*
Each adventure in heroic tier will include guidelines for the DM to provide money to you and your fellow PCs at regular intervals, usually once per level. You can use this money to equip your character, though getting uncommon and rare items is not guaranteed.

Whenever you’re in a suitable place to shop, you can buy common items without restriction. Uncommon and rare items cost their normal amount, but whether you can get them and how long it takes depends on your Prestige. (See “Prestige,” page xx.) This abstraction represents what would realistically be a complex system of salary, stipend, and very large quantities of paperwork. 


*Upgrades, Loot, and Skimming Off the Top*
You can turn in any functioning item to the RHC for its full value. This allows you to keep yourself equipped with the best material available, or at least the best that government bureaucracy thinks you can be trusted with.

Whenever the party acquires any sort of treasure in the course of a mission, you will be expected to hand it over to your superiors, which should keep you at the expected power for your level. If you recover something you want for yourself, you can spend money to requisition it, though that may take some time.

There is always some leeway, and constables are allowed to hold onto loot for a reasonable period of time. If you defeat a foe with a magic sword, and his weapon would aid you in your immediate investigation, you can hold onto it for a few days, but you’re expected to turn it in. 

An alternative, of course, is to hold onto items and not report them to the RHC. This is illegal, and would likely be grounds for dismissal. Such pecuniary misdeeds are expected of common police, but the RHC is held to higher standards. If you attempt to sell such an item, you cannot take advantage of the RHC’s favorable rates, and must use the normal values (20% base cost for common items, 50% for uncommon, 100% for rare). Be careful, though, because prison is not kind to former law officers who turn to crime.


*Exceptions and Variants*
If you receive a gift, you can keep it, though the RHC might factor it into how much of a stipend they need to provide for your next mission.

If the DM prefers, you could alter the setting so that magic items are rarer. The PCs could use the inherent bonuses rule, and they would be provided a much smaller stipend (about one-fourth the suggested amount), which could be used to purchase expendable items and ritual components.

Finally, if the DM decides to run a campaign where you are not part of the RHC, or if the party decides to spontaneously become pirates out of frustration with the bureaucracy they have to deal with, you can use traditional treasure parcels. The adventures will provide suggestions for what the PCs find and where.


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## OnlineDM (May 13, 2011)

It's a lot to take in, but I think it works. My favorite part is the very end, where you state that the adventures will provide suggestions for what the PCs find. Picking treasure is the bane of my existence as a DM. I want to tailor it to the party, but I often forget about doing this in advance, and having some default options in front of me would help.

If I'm understanding the default option correctly, the idea is that treasure doesn't really matter. If a PC wants something, they ask for it. If they have enough Prestige, it will be granted to them. Is that correct?

If so, I think this will work out okay but certain groups might be a bit perturbed by it. After all, looting the bad guys for treasure is a long-time staple of the game, and this setting just lacks that, at least at heroic tier. Honestly, I find that refreshing, but some players might feel that they're not being rewarded for their deeds. Perhaps the idea that the RHC will give them cooler equipment as they gain Prestige will substitute for the joy of looting monster lairs.

Also, some DMs probably won't like the wish list aspect of this. I know that getting the right magic items is a part of character optimization, and if the expectation is that players will have access to whatever they want if they have enough Prestige, the DM might have a harder time saying, "No, you can't have Shadowdance Armor and thus remove the opportunity attack rules for your character." "But I've got the Prestige for a level 5 uncommon!" Naturally the DM can always say that such things don't exist in Risur, but it has the potential to create conflict.

In any case, I applaud the alternative approach to treasure - this should help to give ZEITGEIST a "world of its own" feel, which is a good thing in my book.


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## Colmarr (May 14, 2011)

I like most of it. 

I'm especially glad to see support for inherent bonuses, because I'd already decided to use them to save myself treasure-planning time. Who knows, maybe when the full treasure system is known I won't have to worry at all!

I'm not sure how i feel about the idea of prestige. If it's a good sub-system and comes complete with antagonistic RHC npcs (that OTHER group of constables), then I think it has the potential to add enormously to the feel of the setting. If it's just added paperwork, then I'd rather skip it.

I'm also not keen on the system revolving around rarity. By all accounts the rarity system is borked at the moment and hitching Zeitgeist treasure to that particular wagon might be a mistake. For groups that don't use rarity, you might need an alternative.


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## john112364 (May 15, 2011)

I like it. It's similar to the d20 modern version of how wealth was handled.(If I remember correctly. It's been a while.) I like the fact that it changes the focus to adventure, duty and heroics rather than simply accumulating gold and toys. Though there is still that element too, it seems more of a by product rather than necessity. I also want to see more of this "Prestige" .
I'm looking forward to this more and more.


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## JustKim (May 15, 2011)

Our old 3.5 method of loot division simply does not work under the assumptions of 4E. It used to be we could split up everything sellable into equal shares, and buy back magic items out of the pool for their sale price. But now we don't each get a magic item per level, and the ones we do get can be 3 levels above us, and it just does not work elegantly. As of Essentials, the wonky math of it became completely unworkable. No clear and fair solution has presented itself.

This system not only seems to provide an elegant solution, it does so in a way that doesn't seem at all out of place. In fact I would say this adds something to the game. It'll take a bit of getting used to, but once we acclimate I think we'll prefer it.


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## Colmarr (May 16, 2011)

I've thought about this some more and I'm not sure how the inherent bonuses version is meant to work.

The standard IB system is IIRC normal gp and 2 magic items (lvl+2 and lvl+3), for a total of 3 magic item equivalencies (MIE) per level. The excerpt seems to suggest that there'll be 1/4 gp but does say how many items.

I'm not sure how that's meant to add up to 3 MIE. Can you expand?


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## RangerWickett (May 16, 2011)

Colmarr said:


> I've thought about this some more and I'm not sure how the inherent bonuses version is meant to work.
> 
> The standard IB system is IIRC normal gp and 2 magic items (lvl+2 and lvl+3), for a total of 3 magic item equivalencies (MIE) per level. The excerpt seems to suggest that there'll be 1/4 gp but does say how many items.
> 
> I'm not sure how that's meant to add up to 3 MIE. Can you expand?




Really? There was an official system for matching GP with inherent bonuses? I didn't remember it, so I just sat and thought up my own. The logic was, a PC who starts at level X gets three items, and money of value equal to an item of level (x-1). So I'll just give money of that value.

But I suppose logically that shorts the PC, because he's just getting free static bonuses, not free magic item properties and powers.

Do you have a cite for that 'magic item equivalency' rule? Thanks for mentioning that before we went to layout.


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## Kvantum (May 16, 2011)

Ryan, I find the idea interesting... just, as I usually am, wondering about how the ideas and concepts that sound like rather good ideas for a 4e campaign will translate into one for Pathfinder.


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## Colmarr (May 16, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> Do you have a cite for that 'magic item equivalency' rule? Thanks for mentioning that before we went to layout.




MIE is my terminology and isn't referenced in the rules. Nevertheless, it's easy to see it in the system. 

Normal party treasure per level (pre-essentials, which is probably showing my bias) is items of lvl+4, lvl+3, lvl+2 and lvl+1 and gp equivalent to two items of lvl+0. Four items and 2 item-equivalents in gp. Six MIEs.

The inherent bonuses system (DMG2, pg138 and DSCS) removes the lvl+1 and lvl+4 items, but leaves the gp and the other two items intact. Hence 4 MIEs (I incorrectly said 3 in the last post).

My concern is that if you award only 1/4 of normal gp without somehow adjusting elsewhere then the party is only getting 2.5 MIEs per level instead of 4. Which in turn causes balance problems because, as you noted, inherent bonuses don't make up for properties and item powers and also because the inherent bonuses are generally a level behind item enhancement bonuses (again, in dark sun anyway).


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## Riastlin (Jun 2, 2011)

A little late to the game I realize, but thought I would throw in my two cents as well.  I think the idea should work well enough so long as the adventurers are given plenty of opportunities to go shopping during their careers (probably needs to be about once a level or so).  

As a DM this really has some appeal for me as well because my players are not real big on giving me wish lists for the most part, but are also very much in favor or certain items over others (for instance, they would turn down most +3 armors if they already had a +2 Deathcut).  This provides a nice happy medium.  They get the funds to buy what they want, when they want.  I do think it needs to be made clear to the players though that they would be receiving very little in actual magic gear from the adventures per se so that they know they won't be finding that shiny magic sword that they can use for the next 5 levels on some random bad guy.  As long as they know they'll have to buy their gear, and as long as they get sufficient cash to do so, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Plus, the one thing I always found odd with magic items is that I would expect a creature that "drops" a magic sword to be using said sword and thus, said creature's stat block should probably be adjusting (to hit and dmg enhancement is probably already covered, but they should get the weapon power too, etc.).


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## Redbadge (Jun 2, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> Really? There was an official system for matching GP with inherent bonuses? I didn't remember it, so I just sat and thought up my own. The logic was, a PC who starts at level X gets three items, and money of value equal to an item of level (x-1). So I'll just give money of that value.




Does this mean that under the default method a player will get enough total salary and stipend to purchase a Level +1, Level, Level -1, and Level -1 items on average?

For example, somewhere between levels 1 and 2 a player will receive 1920 gp (680 + 520 + 360 + 360)? Then, between levels 2 and 3, he or she will receive an additional 640 gold salary/stipend (total 2560 for level 3 minus the 1920 already received)?

If so, I think this is a really cool system, especially with ample time to shop each level as noted above. Also, I really like that with the ability to trade in at 100%, a player can always adjust himself to Level +1, Level, Level -1, and Level -1 whenever needed, always staying within an expected power level, but still feeling like they're at peak performance.

However, is it expected that ritual casters/people who like consumables will have to take some of their stipend to spend on ritual components and other consumables? Without the ability to trade in expended consumables at 100%, won't these players see their wealth degrade over time compared to players who only purchase regular magic items? For example, at level 11 a wizard who uses rituals profusely might be able to afford a level 12, a level 11, and level 10 and maybe only have enough left over for a level 9 item (4200 gp) rather than a level 10 (5000 gp). In other words, it would only take a few castings of a level 8 ritual (such as Remove Affliction, 250 gp component cost) to degrade this much, irrespective of any other consumables used.


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## Colmarr (Jun 3, 2011)

Redbadge said:


> Does this mean that under the default method a player will get enough total salary and stipend to purchase a Level +1, Level, Level -1, and Level -1 items on average?




As discussed above, I don't think this is how the 4e treasure economy works.

The L+1, L+0, L-1 method is a suggestion for _creating_ a character above level 1. It is not an indication of what a continuing character of that level should have. For example, when a new character joined our game at 9th level, most of the other PCs at least 5 items of wildly differing levels.


Per level, the standard 4e treasure distribution suggests that a PC will: 

have an 80% chance (4 items per level split between 5 PCs) of receiving 1 item of L+1 to L+4; and
receive 40% (1/5 of 2) of the gold piece value of an item of L+0.
If you're using the randomised Essentials treasure tables, those numbers might change. I assume that WotC made the two systems line up but I've never really checked. 

One way of handling a gp-only system would be to add up the average value of the bullet points above, and then give that many gp to each PC per level. It'd probably be easier to do it on a full party basis (L+4, L+3, L+2, L+1 and gp of Lx2) and then divide the total by 5 to arrive at each PC's share. 

In an inherent bonuses campaign, the calculation would probably be L+3, L+2 and gp of Lx2 divided by 5.

Of course, if the party is more or less than 5 PCs, you need to account for the extra treasure in accordance with the relevant rules.

You'd then need to redo that calculation every level, because of the exponential progression of item values and in either case, you'd probably need to adjust for the value of any 'plot' items that you include in the adventure path unless they're meaningless in the overall treasure scheme.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm handling it by basically figuring out how much a party would get in treasure parcels and splitting that between gifts and salary. There's treasure too, which the party can use during the adventure, but they're supposed to hand it over afterward. If they want it, they have to spend their salary to get the item.


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## Colmarr (Jun 3, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> I'm handling it by basically figuring out how much a party would get in treasure parcels and splitting that between gifts and salary.




That'll work


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## Truename (Jun 5, 2011)

Colmarr said:


> If you're using the randomised Essentials treasure tables, those numbers might change. I assume that WotC made the two systems line up but I've never really checked.




I spot-checked the level 6 random table when Essentials came out and it averaged out to the same result as the parcel system.


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