# Favored Enemy - How does the Ranger know?



## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

When a character gets a bonus of some sort against a certain type of enemy, does that character need to know for sure if/when he is fighting against the specified type in order to get the bonus?  If not, having the bonus (or not) gives away the info...

Examples that have come up in my game recently:

Ranger favored enemy 
Gnomes getting bonuses against Giants

In the case of the Ranger, one of his favored enemies is Undead.  However, his intelligence is really low, Knowledge Religion is not a class skill, and he has no ranks in it.  So... it's pretty hard for him to succeed on a monster knowledge check for undead.

How would you play this?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 5, 2012)

Ranger doesn't need to know, playing it any other way is severely nerfing the class and he may as well never pick creature types he doesn't have the corresponding knowledge skill maxed out for, and even then he gets screwed over by disguises / polymorph spells (which iirc in PF do NOT change your type).

If you don't want to give the ranger player metagame knowledge, keep a note of his favored enemies and bonuses behind the DM screen and secretly apply them to his attack and damage rolls.  Party might realize the numbers disparity on hitting eventually...but same issue comes up with a bane weapon, so...*shrug*.


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## bulatzi (Feb 5, 2012)

A ranger favored enemy shouldn't be distinguishable by the characters intelligence, or whether or not that person/creature is wearing things befitting of that enemy. A ranger is an expert, and should (hopefully) have some in character reason for having his favored enemy. If the enemy is undead, the character should notice things. He should smell an odd whiff in the air. He should notice the way the creature moves is not quite natural, the way it bends in angles that imply it doesn't feel discomfort the way a living creature would. He should, if nothing else, get bad vibes from it. The character has a reason for hating that enemy, and actively seeks out these signs like some sort of inquisitor. 

A ranger should be able to take part in his favored enemy no matter what. And he should be able to distinguish that creature, regardless if he has ever encountered its like before. Just from the over-arching features of that type of creature that distinguish it from others.

All that being said, A ranger shouldn't be able to tell what a creature is without being able to actually observe the creature. If it doesn't move around, doesn't speak, smells heavily of perfume or something, then you wouldn't have any way of knowing. I say this for the sake of a DM, who probably wants to keep the nature of some characters secret until the time is right. And by that point, you will most assuredly have seen enough to confirm what sort of creature it is. (unless your DM is lame and didn't describe him at all)

Hope that helps.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 5, 2012)

I believe bulatzi is right. A ranger has a favored enemy because he has specialized in tracking and eliminating targets of that type. He may know nothing of the religion that spawns the undead but their habits,Movements,Smells,Behaviors and natural trails would all give them away to a ranger who hunts such beasts.


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## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

What about the case of Gnomes getting a bonus against Giants?  Should they, being Gnomes, also automatically know when they're fighting Giants?

And this makes me wonder... is there any mechanical advantage to knowing the type of a creature?


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## frankthedm (Feb 5, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> How would you play this?



I house rule the Favored enemy ability from Extraordinary to a Supernatural ability granted by Spirits of the Hunt.



tylermalan said:


> Should they, being Gnomes, also automatically know when they're fighting Giants?



Dodge bonuses are an active response to being attacked. Once a giant's attack misses because of the 4 point dodge bonus, that would be a good time to tell player their foes use the fighting style of _FeeFiFoeFum_.



tylermalan said:


> is there any mechanical advantage to knowing the type of a creature?



Oh yes. Some spells affect certain types and undead need to get into melee before being nuked by the cleric.


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## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

So, what then?  You pass the Ranger player a note when his Spirit of the Hunt special ability tells him that this creature is Undead and then forbid him to tell the other players?


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## Ahnehnois (Feb 5, 2012)

If your favored enemy is giants, and you're fighting an ogre mage that's polymorphed into a pixie, then you shouldn't get the bonus. If you're fighting an ogre and you're not quite sure whether it's giant or not, you get the bonus.

This is kind of a DM call thing.

If the DM decides you need to roll to identify the enemy as being favored, you should get the bonus to that roll.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 5, 2012)

Help me out here: How would a gnome fail to recognize that he's fighting a giant?

PS., I now have an interesting character concept I need to develop.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 5, 2012)

Ahnehnois said:


> If your favored enemy is giants, and you're fighting an ogre mage that's polymorphed into a pixie, then you shouldn't get the bonus.




If you're using a rules system where polymorph changes your creature type, then this is correct.  However, since in PF you're mostly just taking on the appearance/shell of a creature but actually becoming it, iirc you do not change creature type.  So even though you look like a pixie, you're still an Ogre Mage.  Thus FE applies.



Ahnehnois said:


> This is kind of a DM call thing.




I disagree.  Where does it say a Ranger needs to be aware his foe is a favored enemy to get the bonus?  I have never seen such a rule.  I've only ever seen DMs on messageboards unnerved by the lack of such a rule for some reason.


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## Soramain (Feb 5, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> So, what then?  You pass the Ranger player a note when his Spirit of the Hunt special ability tells him that this creature is Undead and then forbid him to tell the other players?




If he knows they're undead, why would he be forbidden from telling the other players?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 5, 2012)

Soramain said:


> If he knows they're undead, why would he be forbidden from telling the other players?




A lot of DMs don't like the prospect of a Ranger automatically IDing their favored enemies and potentially ruining plans the DM may have had to use subterfuge or trickery against the players, possibly as a cornerstone to the plot.  Which is why I suggested the "secretly add it in" method.

I personally have no problem with it, I think auto-ID should just be a perk of having that type as your favored enemy, for the reasons bulatzi described.  And again, you get this EXACT SAME "problem" with a Bane weapon.  And I refuse to treat one of the ranger's major class features as inferior to a +1 weapon property.


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## Soramain (Feb 5, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> A lot of DMs don't like the prospect of a Ranger automatically IDing their favored enemies...




Oh, definitely.  But I think once you get to the point of changing it to a supernatural ability that automatically works, you've already rounded that bend.


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## Ahnehnois (Feb 5, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> If you're using a rules system where polymorph changes your creature type, then this is correct.  However, since in PF you're mostly just taking on the appearance/shell of a creature but actually becoming it, iirc you do not change creature type.  So even though you look like a pixie, you're still an Ogre Mage.  Thus FE applies.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  Where does it say a Ranger needs to be aware his foe is a favored enemy to get the bonus?  I have never seen such a rule.  I've only ever seen DMs on messageboards unnerved by the lack of such a rule for some reason.



I guess I was distracted by the notion that the bonus exists because of some specific knowledge the attacker has about his prey, as opposed to because the player picked an ability and is somehow entitled to use it whenever fighting something that technically meets the guidelines. I won't argue what the RAW say, but I will say these sorts of things are where I'd exercise my discretion.

Frankly, I prefer favored terrain anyway.


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## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

Soramain said:


> If he knows they're undead, why would he be forbidden from telling the other players?




Because the idea is that if knowing the creature's type is valuable information (that gives a combat edge), you wouldn't want the entire group to know just because there's a Ranger in the party.


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## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

Ahnehnois said:


> I guess I was distracted by the notion that the bonus exists because of some specific knowledge the attacker has about his prey, as opposed to because the player picked an ability and is somehow entitled to use it whenever fighting something that technically meets the guidelines. I won't argue what the RAW say, but I will say these sorts of things are where I'd exercise my discretion.




And this is kind-of where I'm coming from.  A ranger knows how to fight an elf.  He knows how they are weak, and the exploitation of this knowledge is expressed in game terms as a +2 to hit.  But if he doesn't know whether or not a given enemy is an elf, why would he get this bonus?  He doesn't know whether there is an elven weakness there to exploit.

Further, there is no rule that states that he automatically identifies creatures, and there IS a rule stating he gets a bonus to monster knowledge checks against his favored enemies.  This seems to suggest that he still needs to make these checks to identify the monsters.


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## Soramain (Feb 5, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Because the idea is that if knowing the creature's type is valuable information (that gives a combat edge), you wouldn't want the entire group to know just because there's a Ranger in the party.




I understand, but if the ranger has a supernatural ability that triggers when he fights undead, and he knows that it has triggered, there's no in-game reason why he could not communicate that.  "Uh, guys, my Spirit of the Hunt only speaks when I fight the undead, and it's speaking!"

Put another way, the point of the house rule that makes it a supernatural ability is so that the ranger gets the bonus even if he doesn't know he's fighting his favored enemy.  Either the ranger doesn't know his ability is active and he's just more effective than he should be, or he does know and he should be able to communicate it.


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## tylermalan (Feb 5, 2012)

Well I was being more facetious with my comment about the Ranger being prohibited from communicating, mainly because this is free information he's getting with no RAW to back it up.  I'm not saying this make the Ranger overpowered or something, though.

The other factor at work here is that there are other examples of this type of situation that have nothing to do with the Ranger.  The Gnome, for example.  Should the Gnome also automatically know?


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## N'raac (Feb 5, 2012)

I see no reason the ranger, or the gnome, or whoever, should automatically know they are facing a favoured enemy.  At the same time, I think the Gnome conducts combat in  a manner that makes him very effective at dodging Giants, and our Ranger example fights in a style conducive to hitting his favoured enemy(ies).

Given that, if you don't want to tell them, then the onus is on you the DM to ensure these bonuses are applied when the character faces an opponent against which he is entitled to a bonus.

I could see a case that this should not apply to "hatred" bonuses - Dwarves hate orcs so they get +1 to hit - but then the character should get his bonus against non-Orcs he mistakenly believes to be his hated enemy.

There is also a difference between knowing an enemy is Undead (which we could allow that Ranger knows), and knowing details about the Undead (ie the benefits he would need KS: Religion to determine).


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## concerro (Feb 5, 2012)

I trust my players not to metagame if I tell them they are fighting creature X for the purpose of combat bonuses. The character does not know what the player knows. If I get a group of players that can't make the separation then I will handle the bonuses, and they just better hope I don't lose track of what they get bonuses against.


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## Flatus Maximus (Feb 5, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> And this is kind-of where I'm coming from.  A ranger knows how to fight an elf.  He knows how they are weak, and the exploitation of this knowledge is expressed in game terms as a +2 to hit.  But if he doesn't know whether or not a given enemy is an elf, why would he get this bonus?  He doesn't know whether there is an elven weakness there to exploit.
> 
> Further, there is no rule that states that he automatically identifies creatures, and there IS a rule stating he gets a bonus to monster knowledge checks against his favored enemies.  This seems to suggest that he still needs to make these checks to identify the monsters.




This came up the other night at our table. The Ranger has FE aberrations (I think) and they were interacting with a shapechanger. We ruled that FE gives advantages to detecting and fighting, but not auto-ID, just as you suggest above.


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## frankthedm (Feb 5, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> So, what then?  You pass the Ranger player a note when his Spirit of the Hunt special ability tells him that this creature is Undead and then forbid him to tell the other players?



No, I'd calculate the bonuses behind the screen if the creature is disguised.  If an attack is so close that the FE bonus made the difference between a hit or miss, i'd let the ranger know one of his totems is aiding his attack.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 8, 2012)

Soramain said:


> I understand, but if the ranger has a supernatural ability that triggers when he fights undead, and he knows that it has triggered, there's no in-game reason why he could not communicate that. "Uh, guys, my Spirit of the Hunt only speaks when I fight the undead, and it's speaking!"




Bottomline though, it would have to be houseruled to be Supernatural. If we don't houserule it that way, your argument has no value - it's an Extraordinary power for the rest of us. 



N'raac said:


> Given that, if you don't want to tell them, then the onus is on you the DM to ensure these bonuses are applied when the character faces an opponent against which he is entitled to a bonus.




And this is the best answer, if you the GM don't want the ranger revealing the fact that the monster is one of the ranger's favored enemies, then the GM must add the ranger's +2 modifier to all the rangers strikes at the monster without telling him. In other words, don't tell the ranger he's fighting a favored enemy, just calculate his attacks appropriately as they apply to his bonus.

Sure this makes things more complicated for the GM, but it's the GM who wants to hide this information from the players, thus it's his responsibility to include the modifiers in the ranger's attacks.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 8, 2012)

> Given that, if you don't want to tell them, then the onus is on you the  DM to ensure these bonuses are applied when the character faces an  opponent against which he is entitled to a bonus.



 +1. This would be the best way to do it if you don't want him to know that he is fighting a favored enemy. If you just dont give it to him its nerfing his class and being unfair to the player by disregarding his class ability.


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## bulatzi (Feb 8, 2012)

As I mentioned earlier, but a bit more direct...

Screw stats. A ranger gains his bonuses because he is used to fighting creatures of that type for in character reasons. If your favored type of enemy was an alien of some sort, he would know to fight it because the heart is on the bottom left of his stomach, and he knew to attack there if he can. Or maybe he has an easily exposed artery in his leg or something.

He would know to fight elementals because if you attack in a certain way with certain weapons, it disrupts its connection with his elemental plane and dicks with his ability to remain as a single entity.

He would know that to fight orcs, you have to consider their anatomy. They take in the emotion of the moment, and their blood pumps super fast. So maybe the way to fight orcs is to make as many small cuts as possible all around its body, to maximize the bleeding.

And even if the character is stupid, he doesn't have to know why hurting a creature is as effective as it is. He just has to know that it works. Be it through intense study, observation, being trained by others who know how to fight the creature, or personal experience.

It isn't because of some supernatural "my weapons do more just cause" damage.

And the ranger shouldn't even have to roll to identify the creature. A DM and a player should be able to work together to make this as in character as possible.

A DM should include in his description of the enemy some red flags that lets the ranger know it is the enemy he is good at fighting. He and the player should go in detail about the behaviors of his favored enemies AS he takes them.

And if aforementioned DM doesn't ever tell the player it is his favored enemy, then that probably isn't a DM you want to play with anyway.

In short, screw stats. It isn't about numbers. It isn't about what type of ability having a favored enemy is. It is about in character knowledge.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 9, 2012)

It is about numbers.  By RAW all FE does is give you numbers, it doesn't ID creatures for you, that's a houserule.  If a DM tried to let me "roleplay out" figuring out an enemy is a favored enemy over several rounds so I could then share that info with the group...but also didn't let me gain my FE bonuses against the foe until my little epiphany...I'd be "upset."
[sblock]"Upset" = screaming[/sblock]

Covertly adding in the bonus works fine, I suggested it in one of the very first posts in this thread.

That said, I would just tell the ranger any time he's facing a favored enemy, flat out.  I'd consider part of the benefit of having a Ranger on your team not only to have a master archer (or TWF, mounted...whatever combat style he picked) and tracker, but to also have a "undead expert" or a "dragon expert" or an expert in whatever other creature he chose as favored enemy.  He doesn't get to pick the whole Bestiary, even at level 20 he'll only be able to cover a small fraction of it.  So the few creature types he decides to make FEs?  Yeah, he's that damn good, he can instantly recognize them.  Totally reasonable houserule IMO. (I don't consider Instant Enemy and similar spells that make a foe a favored enemy temporarily to be the same as it actually being one, so this wouldn't apply, those spells are just to gain the combat bonuses, it's not the same as long term devotion and study of that creature type)


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## bulatzi (Feb 9, 2012)

It may very well be a house rule, but it is the way it should be. I really don't get this DM vs. PC mentality. It makes it stressful for the DM, and it makes players into rules lawyering douche bags.

A player shouldn't have to find loop holes to ensure entitlement to something against the DM. And in my opinion, a DM is bad if he doesn't work with the players. It shouldn't be DM vs. PCs either.

Also, I didn't mean it would take several rounds. It would just be something that you could see right off, when the damage was relevant. Surely if you engaged something, it would be moving around enough to determine what it was right off. And its description wouldn't be subtle either. It may as well be the DM telling you what it is.

Not that I'm against the rules... but there are a few gray areas that deserve ruling in favor towards better characters. Not just a dude who has the magical ability to hurt zombies a little better for no reason.

But yeah, I don't mean to be driving my view on things into the ground like this. I just think it is the way to do things, and I wanted to spread it. But it does take a certain kind of DM to pull it off.


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## tylermalan (Feb 9, 2012)

bulatzi said:


> It may very well be a house rule, but it is the way it should be. I really don't get this DM vs. PC mentality. It makes it stressful for the DM, and it makes players into rules lawyering douche bags.
> 
> A player shouldn't have to find loop holes to ensure entitlement to something against the DM. And in my opinion, a DM is bad if he doesn't work with the players. It shouldn't be DM vs. PCs either.
> 
> ...




My initial drive behind starting this thread was twofold - first, I wanted to find out if there was a RAW way to handle the situation and second, failing that, to determine if there is a way that people think it should be played based upon various factors.

It is no secret that Pathfinder PCs are, by-and-large, significantly more powerful than their 3.5E counterparts.  As I saw it, there was (is) no RAW reason to give this ability to the Ranger.  The rules don't say that he automatically identifies creatures.  As pointed out by Frank earlier, knowing the creature's type is powerful information.

At the same time, from a realistic standpoint, it doesn't seem like this would make sense.  A magical beast has its heart in its leg.  Attacking it there will do extra damage.  But if you're fighting something that you THINK is a magical beast and attack it in its leg, and then it turns out that this is NOT a magical beast but is instead a creature with extra natural armor on its leg, it would actually be WORSE for you.  Hitting the creature in the leg would be detrimental to your goal (of killing it) because it is actually more resilient in the legs than magical beasts.

But if you always automatically know whether or not every single creature you see is a magical beast, this doesn't matter.


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## jkason (Feb 9, 2012)

First time posting in this forum, but this thread got my interest. Hopefully won't sound a fool...

It seems like the main thrust of the concerns are that knowing the creature type lets the party know about the strengths and weaknesses of the creature, when I'm not sure that's necessarily so. A ranger can know "this is an undead," but per RAW, all that does is give him his bonuses to attacks. Knowing "this is undead," doesn't come with any inherent knowledge of any of the traits of the undead type, nor any specific information about what kind of undead it is, what it's defenses and special attacks are, etc. All of that comes with a fail-able Know check. 

Even in the case of humanoid FE, where you're winnowing things down to a subtype, just knowing "this is an elf" doesn't come with any special knowledge that, for example, that many elves are immune to sleep effects (or that those who aren't may be immune to light-based dazzle attacks, ect). You still have to roll Know (Local) -- or have specific other experience with elves -- to know that. 

If the _players_ hear "this is undead," and begin applying all their ooc knowledge from sourcebooks regarding how to treat undead, that seems to me to be another problem entirely, as you have players trying to metagame.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 9, 2012)

bulatzi said:


> Not that I'm against the rules... but there are a few gray areas that deserve ruling in favor towards better characters. Not just a dude who has the magical ability to hurt zombies a little better for no reason.




First of all it's not magical, its an extraordinary power, something many seem to forget. Knowing how to hurt zombies is an acquired skill. But knowing how to hurt zombies, doesn't mean the ranger has full information as to all a given monsters weaknesses, rather the ranger has an edge when facing such monsters, even if he doesn't know all it's monster features (and not something he can state to other PCs when in combat).

I think the best way to treat this is as a DM calculate the bonus damage and checks that the ranger would get since the monster they are attacking is a favored enemy, and not actually telling the player that such is the case. So he doesn't spread this hidden knowledge to the party at large.

It shouldn't take rounds of study by the ranger to identify his favored enemy, it's an advantage he should get with the first swing of his sword, or shot from his bow...


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## bulatzi (Feb 9, 2012)

You know... I said magical more as a sarcastic phrase. You see what I mean? 

I wasn't even talking about the actual ability, and it gets rules lawyered.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 9, 2012)

bulatzi said:


> You know... I said magical more as a sarcastic phrase. You see what I mean?
> 
> I wasn't even talking about the actual ability, and it gets rules lawyered.




Ah, you realize it's quite difficult to detect sarcasm in a forum post, I couldn't tell you were trying to be sarcastic.

And what I did was correct the point of being a (Ex) vs. a (Su), that is not rules lawyering, that is simple observation. I consider 'rules lawyering' a much more insidious activity, as in attempting to alter the meaning of a given rule though semantics of the spirit of the mechanic.

Not to be rude, but if you're not even talking about the point of this thread, what are you doing in it?


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## Asmo (Feb 9, 2012)

Our group has finished Masks Of the Living God (a Pathfinder adventure) where they left Tamran, each of them with a mask and robe of Razmir.
They are going to - I assume - travel to The Looking Glass Deep disguised as followers of Razmir.
They are expected, and the first line of defense is a bunch of lvl 2 half orc  rangers with favored enemy - human. 
The party is 4 level and consists of 3 humans, an elf and a half orc.
How would you handle this when the defenders spots 5 humanoids wearing masks and robes of Razmir?

Asmo


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## gamerprinter (Feb 9, 2012)

Asmo said:


> Our group has finished Masks Of the Living God (a Pathfinder adventure) where they left Tamran, each of them with a mask and robe of Razmir.
> They are going to - I assume - travel to The Looking Glass Deep disguised as followers of Razmir.
> They are expected, and the first line of defense is a bunch of lvl 2 half orc rangers with favored enemy - human.
> The party is 4 level and consists of 3 humans, an elf and a half orc.
> ...




Well, the way I'd do it, is the way, I've already explained further up thread. If the orc rangers decide to attack the party of mask wearing infiltrators, they will discover that their weapon strikes are getting a +2 hit against them. They may not realize why this is happening, it's just happening. Until they unmask the party to realize they are humans, it would be a 'mystery attack bonus'.

Now whether the orc ranger party is compelled to attack the PC party and discover this advantage is a whole different story. But if they do attack, they won't need to know the PCs are humans, just that it seems to be easier to hit them, than other opponents...

Of course my reasoning, is that humans are their choice of favored enemy, and this choice has absolutely nothing to do with the orcs actually successfully identifying their foes. They don't need to, the bonus comes with choosing the right favored enemy in the given situation.


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## tylermalan (Feb 9, 2012)

Now that, my friend, is a doozy.

Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight.  For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races.  I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing.  If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus.  If not, they don't!

Maybe something like this?


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## gamerprinter (Feb 9, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Now that, my friend, is a doozy.
> 
> Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight. For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races. I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing. If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus. If not, they don't!
> 
> Maybe something like this?




This seems reasonable. But I still think you're still forceably changing how Favored Enemy works.

In my game, it isn't necessary to identify them at all, just necessary to have the right favored enemy option chosen.


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## N'raac (Feb 9, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Now that, my friend, is a doozy.
> 
> Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight.  For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races.  I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing.  If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus.  If not, they don't!
> 
> Maybe something like this?




Let's try a different approach - assume that the whole party is disguised as humans, because they don't want the elf and the half orc to be noticed.  If the Orcs can't see through the disguises, do they get their bonuses against the Elf and the Half Orc because they believe them to be human, and thus their favoured enemy?  

Does that mean I can cast an Alter Self on a dwarf so he looks like an Orc, and now the Ranger who has Orc as a favoured enemy gets his bonus, since he thinks he's fighting an Orc?

If tricking them into thinking the enemy isn't a FE when it is denies the bonus, presumably tricking them into thinking the enemy is a FE when it isn't should grant the bonus, right?


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## tylermalan (Feb 10, 2012)

N'raac said:


> Let's try a different approach - assume that the whole party is disguised as humans, because they don't want the elf and the half orc to be noticed.  If the Orcs can't see through the disguises, do they get their bonuses against the Elf and the Half Orc because they believe them to be human, and thus their favoured enemy?
> 
> Does that mean I can cast an Alter Self on a dwarf so he looks like an Orc, and now the Ranger who has Orc as a favoured enemy gets his bonus, since he thinks he's fighting an Orc?
> 
> If tricking them into thinking the enemy isn't a FE when it is denies the bonus, presumably tricking them into thinking the enemy is a FE when it isn't should grant the bonus, right?




Man... you're KILLING me!  

In this case, I would re-mention something that I said in a previous post:  If a Ranger can take advantage of the physical anatomy of a creature in order to exploit its weaknesses, and that creature's anatomy is what he thinks it is, then he would get the bonus.  However, if he thinks he is attacking an Orc (with, say, a heart on its leg) but is really attacking an Elf (with its heart in its chest), then he wouldn't get the bonus.

If the group tricks the attacking Orcs (who have FE human) into thinking that the group is full of Elves instead of humans, then presumably the Orcs wouldn't attempt to exploit weaknesses that they don't believe are present.

If, however, the group tricks the Orcs into thinking that the Elf and the Half-Orc are human, and the Orcs attack them as though they are, then they STILL wouldn't get the bonus because Elves and Half-Orcs don't have their hearts in their chests, or whatever.


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## jkason (Feb 10, 2012)

Does the need to actively identify a creature type go away if we instead think of favored enemy bonuses as due to something a Ranger's _always_ doing? In other words, his fighting style is most heavily influenced by his favored enemies (bonus), but he doesn't specifically change tactics for them. Rather, he's developed a fighting style that's generally effective, but which he's discovered is especially effective against the opponents he's focused his hunting skills on? 

That sort of thinking might carry over decently to the skill bonuses, too. He's not actively applying "I know elves think this way," to a Sense Motive roll, but the body language indicators he depends on happen to be those most prominent in elves.


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## N'raac (Feb 10, 2012)

jkason said:


> Does the need to actively identify a creature type go away if we instead think of favored enemy bonuses as due to something a Ranger's _always_ doing? In other words, his fighting style is most heavily influenced by his favored enemies (bonus), but he doesn't specifically change tactics for them. Rather, he's developed a fighting style that's generally effective, but which he's discovered is especially effective against the opponents he's focused his hunting skills on?
> 
> That sort of thinking might carry over decently to the skill bonuses, too. He's not actively applying "I know elves think this way," to a Sense Motive roll, but the body language indicators he depends on happen to be those most prominent in elves.




This is the key - if we assume the Ranger adopts an especially bizarre fighting style only against his favoured enemy, then he needs to know who they are to combat them effectively.  But, if we take the extreme "their heart is in their leg" example, wouldn't using that style against a human make the Ranger *less effective*, rather than just normally effective?

The RAW says he gets "+2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against  such creatures.", not that he gets his bonuses if he knows he is  dealing with such creatures.  This seems to indicate his fighting style is no less effective than normal against other opponents, but is especially effective against his favored enemy.

The skill roll bonus is similar.  It seems unlikely the ranger would typically KNOW he is making a Perception check to spot an ambush laid by Elves, rather than one laid by Gnomes, or wolves, yet he should get that bonus to his Perception skill.  If he is looking for tracks, he won't know there is a Magical Beast in the group he is tracking, but he should still get the bonus to his Survival roll.  He might be using his Perception to penetrate the fact his Half Orc enemy is disguised as a human.  Assume his PER bonus, without FE, is +8, and the DC is 20.  If he rolls an 11, does he fail (no FE bonus because he doesn't know the disguised person is a FE), or succeed (he gets the bonus because he is using the skill against his FE)?

Given the volume of "what if's" and corner cases if we assume the Ranger must know the target is a FE, it seems like the best approach, even if the rules were less clear, would be to apply the bonuses whenever the FE is the target.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 10, 2012)

N'raac said:


> This is the key - if we assume the Ranger adopts an especially bizarre fighting style only against his favoured enemy, then he needs to know who they are to combat them effectively. But, if we take the extreme "their heart is in their leg" example, wouldn't using that style against a human make the Ranger *less effective*, rather than just normally effective?




A ranger is in fact less effective against non-favored enemies, they don't get a +2 hit against them. That is less effective than against favored enemies which they do get a +2 hit. I would argue that non-ranger normal effective is the same thing as "less effective" (at least to a ranger.)

Since all other non-ranger characters have the same normal effective combat, it is in fact less effective - just ask a ranger.


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## billd91 (Feb 11, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Further, there is no rule that states that he automatically identifies creatures, and there IS a rule stating he gets a bonus to monster knowledge checks against his favored enemies.  This seems to suggest that he still needs to make these checks to identify the monsters.




That's my take on it as well. And when you consider that the ranger gets his bonus on perception, knowledge, and sense motive, he's got some good tools to see through any attempts at disguise. It's not foolproof, no.

I also think a ranger should get his bonuses against any favored enemy even if he doesn't identify as such. Its nature has not changed. It still behaves or acts like its nature in subtle ways at the very least that the ranger should be able to automatically exploit.


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## Winterthorn (Feb 12, 2012)

*This is easier than we think!*

The OP question is a good one but it is less of a problem than people suggest when one thinks about it.

_Basically, players do not know the actual AC of the targets their PCs are attacking._ Although they often learn a close approximation.

It is up to the GM to declare a hit or not and let the players guess what is going on:

Situation A: PC ranger with elves as FE fights an elf disguised as a human. GM adds the FE bonus to the players hit result by saying "you hit" on a borderline roll + modifiers. Based upon the player's calculations, the player may realize something is up if he/she was sure their ranger PC should have missed... ("I shouldn't have hit, but I did! It's an *elf*!!")

Situation B: PC ranger with elves as FE fights a human disguised as an elf. The GM does not add the FE bonus to the players hit result by saying "you missed" on a borderline roll + modifiers. Based upon the player's calculations, the player may realize something is up if he/she was sure their ranger PC should have hit! ("I should have hit, but I didn't! It's *not* an elf!!")

In A the player didn't apply the FE bonus, the GM secretly did it for him/her.

In B the player applied the FE bonus (most likely), and the GM secretly subtracted it.

Again, this is in the GM's hands since actual AC to hit is not player knowledge -- it is up to the GM to remember the ranger PC's FE bonuses -- although most players will probably remind their GM now and then.  When the ranger player looks into the math of their roll verses the result announced by the GM, they'll clue in that somethings not what it seems -- and thus the FE bonus has been applied when it was supposed to. No problem!


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