# IG's "Those Left Behind" [OOC-2]



## industrygothica (Oct 30, 2009)

I've been threatening a new OOC thread for a while, so here it is... minus the 1300+ posts in the last one.

And I have a question... and a simple one, at that.

Do you guys prefer maps to go along with battles and combat posts, or do you just prefer I narrate it and leave it at that?  Maps, especially of dungeons, are obviously more organized (take a right here, and a left there), but simple narration is easier, as long as you're not tracking at home... 'cause things may not add up exactly that way.


-IG


----------



## jkason (Oct 30, 2009)

The only reason I'd prefer a map would be for tactical purposes (flanking, picking area for spells). So long as we could find a way to allow for those, I'm fine without one.


----------



## Leif (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm fine without a map, if that's the DM's preference.  But there's no reason why we need to do every encounter the same way, either.  Maybe you can fling a map at us if you have the time, and, if not, we'll do without. 

(Now, if only I could get MY players to be as easy to please!)


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 31, 2009)

jkason said:


> The only reason I'd prefer a map would be for tactical purposes (flanking, picking area for spells). So long as we could find a way to allow for those, I'm fine without one.




what he said! for tactical purposes.



Leif said:


> I'm fine without a map, if that's the DM's preference.  But there's no reason why we need to do every encounter the same way, either.  Maybe you can fling a map at us if you have the time, and, if not, we'll do without.
> 
> (Now, if only I could get MY players to be as easy to please!)




and thanks for that map you gave us , Leif. that helps alot!


----------



## Scotley (Oct 31, 2009)

My character doesn't have a lot of tactical stuff, but he does do much better when flanking. As long as we can figure a way to do that occasionally I don't need a full map.


----------



## Friadoc (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm cool going without a battle map, if need be, so long as we default to a little more leeway in the tactical layout and approach to encounters. Heck, I've had groups who only use dry erase boards, without grids, and we just fudge distances, per DM approval, most the time.

While maps are good for the tactical element, as well as visuals sometimes, I think a good descriptive bought can overcome the need for them, most the time.


----------



## industrygothica (Oct 31, 2009)

Friadoc said:


> I'm cool going without a battle map, if need be, so long as we default to a little more leeway in the tactical layout and approach to encounters. Heck, I've had groups who only use dry erase boards, without grids, and we just fudge distances, per DM approval, most the time.





This is pretty much what I'm thinking...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 31, 2009)

that sounds good to me.


----------



## Leif (Nov 2, 2009)

industrygothica said:


> This is pretty much what I'm thinking...






			
				Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> that sounds good to me.



You ARE the boss here, after all....


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 2, 2009)

Thak you for the complament leif, but I would rather you let Industry Gothica think he is the boss here.


----------



## Leif (Nov 3, 2009)

Scott DeWar said:


> Thak you for the complament leif, but I would rather you let Industry Gothica think he is the boss here.



Well, duh!  That's kinda what I meant.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 3, 2009)

it didn't quite sound like that, and i wanted to see if I could get you in trouble.


----------



## industrygothica (Nov 3, 2009)

Nobody is getting in trouble here.

We'll save that for the IC thread...


----------



## jkason (Nov 3, 2009)

industrygothica said:


> Nobody is getting in trouble here.
> 
> We'll save that for the IC thread...




That's what I'm afraid of...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 3, 2009)

a true dm: evil to the core.


----------



## industrygothica (Nov 21, 2009)

Time for another family visit to New Orleans!

I work 12 hour days starting in an hour until 7:00 Tuesday night, at which time we'll be promptly heading out for the Big Easy until around the 29th.  Posting will be slow until Tuesday, and probably nothing after that until we get back.  I'll be taking a laptop with me, so if I can get some access out there in the country I'll be able to post from there--otherwise I'll see you all when I get back.


-IG


----------



## Leif (Nov 22, 2009)

Enjoy your trip, IG!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 22, 2009)

if there are any detals that are ok to post in the family friendly atmosphere of enworld, let us know how the trip went and if any vampires were hunted down there!


----------



## Friadoc (Nov 22, 2009)

Enjoy your trip, you and yours be safe, and see you on the other side.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 12, 2010)

Just wanted to let you all know that I haven't forgotten about you guys, or this game.  Taking a little break while satisfying some other addictions over at the cartographersguild.  I new getting that graphics tablet could only mean trouble.

Anyway, I'll get an update out soon enough.  I think we're looking at wrapping this one up pretty soon, honestly.  I've loved running this game over the years, but my heart just isn't in 3rd edition anymore. We've probably got a couple more months though, at least.

See you in a bit.


-IG


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 12, 2010)

It's all good, IG. I totally get the line of thought and while I enjoy the game and character, I enjoyed gaming and BSing with you all, more. 

I can do that anywhere.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 12, 2010)

Any chance I could bring Talashia into a 4rth Ed game with you?

Her concept is one of the few I have that fits -perfectly- into 4rth Ed. In fact, if anything, it's even better for her than 3rd is!


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 12, 2010)

Friadoc said:


> It's all good, IG. I totally get the line of thought and while I enjoy the game and character, I enjoyed gaming and BSing with you all, more.
> 
> I can do that anywhere.



Thanks.



Shayuri said:


> Any chance I could bring Talashia into a 4rth Ed game with you?
> 
> Her concept is one of the few I have that fits -perfectly- into 4rth Ed. In fact, if anything, it's even better for her than 3rd is!




There's a good chance that I'll run another 4e game after this one has run its course... you can absolutely bring Talashia in.  Storm sorcerer, I'd assume?


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 12, 2010)

Natch! With an air mephit Arcane Familiar at paragon level, when the level is appropriate.


----------



## Leif (Jan 12, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> There's a good chance that I'll run another 4e game after this one has run its course... you can absolutely bring Talashia in.  Storm sorcerer, I'd assume?





Shayuri said:


> Natch! With an air mephit Arcane Familiar at paragon level, when the level is appropriate.



Hey, if you don't mind, I'd sure like to join you.  I'm having trouble finding a 4E game in which to be a PLAYER.  And clerics are my favorite 4E class so far.  (Though I confess that I want to try a Ranger, an Invoker, and a Warden ASAP!) 

[And, also, IG, it's been great!  But I totally understand how you feel.]


----------



## jkason (Jan 12, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is it just the edition that's got you wanting to wrap this game up, or are you feeling uninspired story / character-wise? I'm just wondering because, if you're thinking about doing a 4th edition game on the heels of this, how would you feel about some kind of pseudo-conversion on this game? 

I think I'm probably one of the few people who hasn't even glanced at 4e, but if you're thinking wrap up would take a while anyway, I'd probably have time to figure out how the heck this 4e stuff works before we're done with the chaos beasts (which I understand wouldn't / aren't converted anyway). I do love this game to little pieces, and Shai even almost has a character arc that I'd love to keep fiddling with.

Actually, if it's the story but not the characters you're minding, we could always make a clean break at the wrap up / re-rolling point anyway, re-starting in a new locale after all the unpleasantness left behind. Heck, if you did do a jump-forward, some of the characters may have actually parted ways for a time, so it's almost like starting over. 

Okay, I'm pestering, but this is one of the longest-running games I'm in, so I'm a little attached. Obviously you shouldn't feel obligated or guilted, and I'm not even sure how the others would feel about the prospect, but just thought I'd float the idea. 

Either way, thanks for ... yowza: three and a half _years_ of awesome.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 12, 2010)

You know, a 4e conversion would be cool...though it may not be possible if IG wants to start fresh at 1st level. Talashia at 7th level in 3e is probably close to Talashia at 11th level in 4e (since she can't have Shazi before level 11).

That said, it'd be really cool to have these characters, who already have some ties together, to meet up again after having saved this city...what was its name again? ...from chaos beasts and organized crime.


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 12, 2010)

I'd be up to a 4e game, too, although I've not played it since before this past Summer. I was playing it (mostly running it) prior to that on a bi-weekly schedule, but vehicle issues took me from that group.

Anyhow, I'd be cool with it, too. If IG is.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 12, 2010)

regretfully all, i would not be interested in a 4e game of any kind. I know Leif is aware of my feeling toward the new edition, but I am not aware if any here know my feelings. suffice it to say that I will miss the game, players, dm and story if it were to leave, as it is sounding to happen in a few months.



> I think I'm probably one of the few people who hasn't even glanced at 4e



 I am with you on this. I have not even picked up a 4.x ed book


----------



## Leif (Jan 13, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> regretfully all, i would not be interested in a 4e game of any kind. I know Leif is aware of my feeling toward the new edition, but I am not aware if any here know my feelings. suffice it to say that I will miss the game, players, dm and story if it were to leave, as it is sounding to happen in a few months.
> 
> I am with you on this. I have not even picked up a 4.x ed book



Yer livin' in the PAST, DeWar!  Get widda program, danggit! 

But, now that he mentions it, IG, you could do a convert to Pathfinder, if you were so inclined....


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 13, 2010)

Leif said:


> Yer livin' in the PAST, DeWar!  Get widda program, danggit!
> 
> But, now that he mentions it, IG, you could do a convert to Pathfinder, if you were so inclined....



I have been converting from pathfinder beta to pathfinder fina. I could argue that I AM getting with 'da program'


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 13, 2010)

Story, edition, inspiration..   Yep, that's about it. 

Has it really been three and a half years?  Geez, that's a feat in its own right around here.  I never really considered myself a great DM, so it makes me wonder what's kept you all around so long.

You all know that I've been pulling the majority of the story out of dark and smelly places for probably at least two of those years.  I've got a basic idea where we're headed, but only a shell.  The original story I had planned out is so far gone it's unreal, since no one in this group even knows who Loddie and Vardi are, other than faint whispers.

Putting encounters together has become somewhat of a pain, just because I've gotten myself used to 4e.  I LOVE that encounter system.  I wouldn't mind playing in different editions, but I'd really prefer to stick to one for DMing.  I dream of eventually writing an adventure or something to get published, so it seems logical to stick with the most current version (though I suppose Pathfinder is a viable option).  I'd totally be up for a conversion, but I'd hate to lose DeWar in the process.  I feel like we're a little family here.  But if that's what you guys want to do, I'm all over it.  I think there is enough material out now to get everyone converted to a passable likeness.  I've never done paragon levels before, but it seems like that'd make the most sense to start.

With any luck, a bit of inspiration will hit, and at the very least we'll be able to save Irongate with a bang!


----------



## Leif (Jan 13, 2010)

Yeah, it'd be shame to lose DeWar.  Awww, come on, S.D!  PLay 4E with us, pleeeeeease??

Paragon?  Uulark isn't 10th level, he's.. ummm, waitaminit ... got it right here somewhere ... 8th, right?  I played an epic level game very briefly some months ago, back when I had absolutely no idea what I was doing with 4E.  It was a mess.  The DM, Atanatotatos, did a good job with it, though.

IDEA:  DeWar can use Pathfinder rules, and the rest of us will play 4E!  What a genius idea!


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 13, 2010)

While Pathfinder is my preference (the bulk of my freelance work right now is with Pathfinder or Arcana Evolved), I've played 4e since it came out and...it's playable. My preference is Pathfinder, mind you, but I make my adjustments based on whom I play with, more than system.

You've been some of the more enjoyable folks I've gamed with on here and I'd love to continue to do so, in some way, form or what not.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 13, 2010)

Talashia works in Pathfinder too...an Air Elemental Bloodline Sorceror...though the progression isn't exactly the same as her PrC, it's close enough to satisfy me.

I'm easy, really. 3.5e...pathfinder...4e... What makes a game fun or unfun isn't the system, it's the people...players, GM's and characters. You guys are fun, and your characters are fun. Therefore I'd feel good about playing even a system I hated with ya. A good group makes a bad system fun!


----------



## jkason (Jan 13, 2010)

I've been playing in a few Pathfinder games, so I'm marginally more familiar with that than with 4e; all the games are 1st or 2nd level, though, and I don't think I've touched the Pathfinder druid yet, but I'm game. I don't have any ill will toward 4e so much as I haven't had funds to lay out on game supplements for quite some time, and since 4e doesn't have an SRD like 3.5 or Pathfinder, and there were enough of those to keep me entertained, I haven't really thought in its direction.

Honestly, like Shayuri, I don't really have a system preference so much as a preference for the folks and characters and story (or our ability to side-track said story and force more improv from IG  ). 

I'd hate to lose DeWar, too, but if Pathfinder's just as onerous for IG as far as encounter-generation as 3.5e, or if it still provides the split-edition focus that's plaguing him, I wouldn't imagine converting to it's likely to solve the underlying problem of IG's not enjoying the DMing. Of course, I don't DM, so I have no insight whatsoever into what's easy or difficult.

In the end, I gues, whatever system means we keep having the crazy fun, I'm up for. 

jason


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 13, 2010)

encounter design problems? check out wulf ratbane's trailblazer system. Somewhere around her. on enworld. I will find here eventually.....



> Has it really been three and a half years? Geez, that's a feat in its own right around here. I never really considered myself a great DM, so it makes me wonder what's kept you all around so long.




the answer is simple and i am sure all of us will agree. You are a great dm. plain and simple. If you feel drawn to 4.e, then don't feel compelled to sacrifice sanity for the group or the one (in this case, me) You can find a replacement for me, the player. Heck, ask Rhun to take over in my slot! just don't let leif lure him into random chattieness, like he does every where.

*ducks as book is thrown at me*


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 13, 2010)

Yes, I've had several adventures with Ruhn.  Much like a few other folks, he's pretty much got an open invitation to any of my games to use whenever he wants.

I'd be up for playing a Pathfinder game, but not for DMing.  As jkason pointed out, it really wouldn't solve my problem, if indeed that is what it is (a problem).  

Regardless, I will run a 4e game when this one is finished, and it will be set in my brand new homebrew world, so that you all can help me build it.  I might just drop Irongate in there and say we've been there all along.  And, SD, should you ever change your mind, just knock, and the door will open.

What's on the other side is an entirely different story...

[sblock=OOC]But in the mean time, we've got another game to finish![/sblock]


----------



## jkason (Jan 13, 2010)

Alrighty, then: need to budget to get some 4e material. Bouncing around online, it looks like both Druid and Barbarian aren't actually in the Players handbook, though both are in Players Handbook 2. Question: does PH2 have the basic game mechanics in it, or do I need to actually get both books in order to know what I'm doing? 

jason


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 13, 2010)

jkason said:


> Alrighty, then: need to budget to get some 4e material. Bouncing around online, it looks like both Druid and Barbarian aren't actually in the Players handbook, though both are in Players Handbook 2. Question: does PH2 have the basic game mechanics in it, or do I need to actually get both books in order to know what I'm doing?
> 
> jason




Get PH2 first...  the rest can be winged, I think.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 13, 2010)

A note of confusion, or ambiguity...it's a bit unclear what plans are being made, yet it seems plans are afoot. Lets get things out on the table.

Are we converting Those Left Behind, or are you just talking the game which is to follow it?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 13, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> A note of confusion, or ambiguity...it's a bit unclear what plans are being made, yet it seems plans are afoot. Lets get things out on the table.
> 
> Are we converting Those Left Behind, or are you just talking the game which is to follow it?




Let's convert.  Should be fun.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 13, 2010)

But what of DeWar?

Talashia's poor brozzer!

And if conversion is the aim, we'll still need some parameters. Level. Attribute point buy. Starting inventory allotment (if other than standard). Acceptable sources and so on.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 14, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> But what of DeWar?
> 
> Talashia's poor brozzer!
> 
> And if conversion is the aim, we'll still need some parameters. Level. Attribute point buy. Starting inventory allotment (if other than standard). Acceptable sources and so on.




That'll be open for discussion, I suppose.  I'm thinking paragon, so probably 10th level should be fairly equivalent. Shazi might have to hang in limbo for a bit...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 14, 2010)

huh. poor shazi. and everyone thought he was annoyed before. 

As for me, I will contact rhun to see if he will take over for me. is that ok?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 14, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> huh. poor shazi. and everyone thought he was annoyed before.
> 
> As for me, I will contact rhun to see if he will take over for me. is that ok?




Works for me, though it'll be a bit before we're ready.. maybe a couple of months even.  You know how slow I am.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 14, 2010)

Hmm, well, the first paragon level is 11...10 is the last Heroic level. Though if you wanted to do the transition from Heroic to Paragon, 10 would be appropriate.

I sort of envisioned that moment for Talashia being when she did the ritual with Shazi and embarked on her PrC...which in 4e terms is now a Paragon Path. So it'd be a bit of a backtrack for her, but eh...no big deal.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 14, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Hmm, well, the first paragon level is 11...10 is the last Heroic level. Though if you wanted to do the transition from Heroic to Paragon, 10 would be appropriate.
> 
> I sort of envisioned that moment for Talashia being when she did the ritual with Shazi and embarked on her PrC...which in 4e terms is now a Paragon Path. So it'd be a bit of a backtrack for her, but eh...no big deal.




You crafted Shazi's introduction so well, maybe I just wanted to create a scenario in which you had to do it all over again.   But I'm guessing you're not buying that...

1th level is fine.  Standard point buy, Character Builder legal.


----------



## Scotley (Jan 14, 2010)

Should be interesting to do a fighter/rogue multiclass in 4e. I've been curious about how those rules would work. Anybody know a good paragon class for Rogash? 

I'm good with whatever mechanics you want: 3, 4 pathfinder, etc. So, 4e is cool. I don't have access to character builder, but I expect I can get someone to run my build through it.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 14, 2010)

A fighter/rogue MC in 4e wouldn't usually be very effective.

A better idea would be to divorce Rogash's concept from his mechanics for a moment, and ask, "What makes Rogash, Rogash?"

Then we can find a class or class combo in 4e that suits that concept. Classes don't always (or even often) translate over on a 1 to 1 basis.

Edit - Having looked over the sheet in the RG, Rogash is a rogue first, who looks like he took fighter levels for the proficiencies and the bonus feats. In 4e terms he'd be a Brutal Rogue, I think...a rogue build that emphasizes hard hitting rather than fancy footwork. Dex is still the primary stat (as it is for Rogash), but Str comes in second.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2010)

so, is it official? should I contact Rhun to take over Caerwyn?

by the way, Scott, you can let Leif run it for you. I volenteer him!


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> so, is it official? should I contact Rhun to take over Caerwyn?
> 
> by the way, Scott, you can let Leif run it for you. I volenteer him!




It is official that we will continue this campaign in 4th edition AFTER this current adventure is over.

So will we still get to count it as a multi-year long game, or do we have to start over?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2010)

Speaking of 4e, who's got a new 4e game starting up?  I've got a dwarven invoker that I rolled up some time ago for a game that never got off the ground, and I'm dying to give him a proper go.  Anyone?


-IG


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> It is official that we will continue this campaign in 4th edition AFTER this current adventure is over.
> 
> So will we still get to count it as a multi-year long game, or do we have to start over?



I do not know the answer to that question, personally, but the group as a whole seems to want to continue the characters as 4.x ed. at level 11, I think.

as for who to take over for me, I actually was thinking of Rena1g, not Rhun. either one would be great. I count it an honor if either one were to take over Caerwyn.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> I do not know the answer to that question, personally, but the group as a whole seems to want to continue the characters as 4.x ed. at level 11, I think.
> 
> as for who to take over for me, I actually was thinking of Rena1g, not Rhun. either one would be great. I count it an honor if either one were to take over Caerwyn.




renau1g is a great choice too--he's actually in my other 4e game, along with Shayuri.  Either one would do Caerwyn justice.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2010)

I shall flip a coin. heads Rhun, Tails Rena1g ...
1d2=2 
2. tails. I shall contact Renalg now.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 15, 2010)

Speak of the devil.... 

I would definitely be interested (as I replied in PM to Mr. Dewar). I don't think Rhun's playing 4e either. So would it be level 11 to start? I would probably play the paladin and then multi-class into barbarian (or perhaps hybrid, although it probably would be difficult to do that). 

I look forward to assuming the reins of Caerwyn Thingol


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Speak of the devil....
> 
> I would definitely be interested (as I replied in PM to Mr. Dewar). I don't think Rhun's playing 4e either. So would it be level 11 to start? I would probably play the paladin and then multi-class into barbarian (or perhaps hybrid, although it probably would be difficult to do that).
> 
> I look forward to assuming the reins of Caerwyn Thingol




Welcome renau1g, glad to have you in the game.  We've been in this one a long time, and once we convert I don't any reason we won't keep going.  I don't know exactly what we'll be doing when we're done here; if I can think of something to tie it in, I will.  Otherwise it'll be something new and exciting.  I've neither played nor ran paragon levels before (except for that one time when I was making bitches out of a couple of goliaths, before the game fell apart... but that's another story  ), so that's liable to get interesting.

Build Caerwyn however you like, though I haven't researched the hybrid classes; let's avoid that route if possible.  If it's something you end up _really_ wanting to do, then we'll talk.

You've seen the Romeda map, and the accompanying world map.  It'll be set somewhere in there, be it Romeda or somewhere else that I'll have to detail.

Again, it could be some time before we start, as we still have this chapter to finish up on first.  It might be as long as a couple of months.  We can use this thread to discuss plans and whatnot, however.

One of my main concerns now is making sure that Shai gets to keep Dyspeer, as I don't believe druids get animal companions in 4e.  Dyspeer has been just as important in this adventure as the PCs--and has just as many kills, I think.  It wouldn't feel right moving on without him.


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 15, 2010)

Shai strikes me as more of a ranger than a druid anyway, to be honest. He hardly ever casts spells. He's much more martially oriented.

A beastmaster ranger...maybe with a barbarian MC or something...could be quite nice.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 15, 2010)

Hmmm...there is a dire wolf mount in CB...you might need to bump it up a bit though as it's a level 5 creature, also they're handled differently as you and the mount can't attack in the same turn.

I'd also suggest looking at the ranger build with the animal companion. 

I was bored at work right now so I put together a proposed build for Caerwyn (using the hybrid rules though). Reason I did it is that he had rages in the initial build and seemed like a fairly important part of the character that I didn't want to lose. The paragon class Gray Guard seems to fit his personality perfectly, "Your tactics don't make you popular with others in your god's service" & "the ends justify the means" - like his initial "concepts of quick and dirty justice" from his background section.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Shai strikes me as more of a ranger than a druid anyway, to be honest. He hardly ever casts spells. He's much more martially oriented.
> 
> A beastmaster ranger...maybe with a barbarian MC or something...could be quite nice.




Looking around, a beastmaster ranger with a druid multiclass would allow Shai to both keep Dyspeer AND his wild shape ability.  jkason worked pretty hard incorporating that first wild shape into the game; he's not going to want to give that up.



renau1g said:


> Hmmm...there is a dire wolf mount in CB...you might need to bump it up a bit though as it's a level 5 creature, also they're handled differently as you and the mount can't attack in the same turn.
> 
> I'd also suggest looking at the ranger build with the animal companion.
> 
> I was bored at work right now so I put together a proposed build for Caerwyn (using the hybrid rules though). Reason I did it is that he had rages in the initial build and seemed like a fairly important part of the character that I didn't want to lose. The paragon class Gray Guard seems to fit his personality perfectly, "Your tactics don't make you popular with others in your god's service" & "the ends justify the means" - like his initial "concepts of quick and dirty justice" from his background section.




That looks pretty good, actually.  I glanced at the hybrid rules, and they don't seem all that complicated I guess. Especially since they're in the CB now to keep 'em legal.  I'm going to be in a bad way when my ddi subscription runs out in march!


-IG


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 15, 2010)

I'll dig my 4e books out this weekend, as I've not touched them since this summer, and give them a looksey to see what I can do, or what not. Buurt shouldn't be that hard to do. Plus, I might get more in touch with him as a character by doing a build or conversion of him.


----------



## jkason (Jan 15, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> One of my main concerns now is making sure that Shai gets to keep Dyspeer, as I don't believe druids get animal companions in 4e.  Dyspeer has been just as important in this adventure as the PCs--and has just as many kills, I think.  It wouldn't feel right moving on without him.




I probably won't have a book for a little while yet, but I had similar concerns. From what I could glean with my limited google-fu, it didn't seem like druids had animal companions, though Shaman's had a 'spirit animal companion.' It wasn't clear to me if that was a real animal or not. 



Shayuri said:


> Shai strikes me as more of a ranger than a druid anyway, to be honest. He hardly ever casts spells. He's much more martially oriented.




I tend to agree. Shai isn't much of a caster, mostly casting now because of the rather nasty consequences of getting within melee range of a chaos beast. His relationship with Dyspeer is far more central to him as a character than being able to resist fey or cast barkskin or whatever. As his character fits a 'role,' at least in my limited understanding of them, he seems more Defender--or possibly Striker--than Controller (which is what Druids are classified as in 4e)

My only secondary concern is that I built what I thought was a fairly neat character / story arc in to account for Shai's wildshaping, though he's only really used it once. If I have to choose between keeping Dyseer and keeping wild shape, Dyspeer wins. And since I couched Shai's wildshaping in terms of 'beasts within,' and something that makes him more than a little uncomfortable with its implications for his humanity, I don't think it would be out of character to have the 'loss' of that ability work as a character choice.

Now, rangers are Martial instead of Primal, correct? We'd been talking about my picking up the PH2 for Druid stats, and even as I was researching and thought he might not mesh quite so well with Druid ni 4e, it seemed the Primal power source was--at least in name--probably the best suited to Shai. I'm not sure if there's a game effect as far as power source goes, but I suppose that's something else I should consider.

ETA: Looks like IG already covered the wildshaping while I was nattering around being slow.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 15, 2010)

Power sources really don't effect anything. I'm sure if you want to explain your ranger powers with a more primal flair IG wouldn't begrudge you. After all how they're described is just the fluff. The only thing is the ranger powers are more about his skill with the bow/weapons, rather than being in tune with nature (although in 3e it was similar I think).


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 15, 2010)

The multiclass with the druid actually has some merit, though it also carries a heavy burden of Multi-Attribute Dependency. Any druid attack powers you gain via feats will have a Wisdom-based attack roll, while your ranger powers will have a Strength based attack roll.

Might be tricky.

If you get PHB2, take a peek at the Warden. It's a Primal Defender that also uses shapeshifting abilities, and I believe its powers are Strength based.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 15, 2010)

They (wardens) are str-based with either wis or con secondary. Rangers have some decent use for Wis though (although a melee ranger relies on Str, Dex, Con, and Wis), although they get a free bonus feat (toughness) to help them get some extra hp.


----------



## jkason (Jan 16, 2010)

I'd been wondering about Wardens as I was trying to glean stuff from the internets. Like I said, from what I know of Roles, Shai feels most like a Defender to me (yeah, he always bragged about squishing stuff, but it always seemed more like his way of keeping that stuff from hurting the folk he was with). Primal + Defender seemed to be the Warden. If they do have wildshaping, that might be the best combo with the beastmaster ranger to making a 4e Shai (is it still officially multi-classing in 4e? I thought I read somewhere that you actually just take a few feats / abilities from your 'other class' instead of taking levels in individual classes). 

jason


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm wondering a few things, including that I wanna play a pure rogue, again...so we'll see what I can work up with Buurt.

Of course, I also wanna play a halfling, again, but that's not something I'll be able to work up. *laughs*

Due to this coming game, as well as a Skype game with a friend of mine, I might turn my DDI back on. We'll see.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 16, 2010)

jkason said:


> I'd been wondering about Wardens as I was trying to glean stuff from the internets. Like I said, from what I know of Roles, Shai feels most like a Defender to me (yeah, he always bragged about squishing stuff, but it always seemed more like his way of keeping that stuff from hurting the folk he was with). Primal + Defender seemed to be the Warden. If they do have wildshaping, that might be the best combo with the beastmaster ranger to making a 4e Shai (is it still officially multi-classing in 4e? I thought I read somewhere that you actually just take a few feats / abilities from your 'other class' instead of taking levels in individual classes).
> 
> jason




Yeah the warden is the primal defender. Their daily powers usually involve "wild shaping", like the Form of Winters Herald (level 1), you turn into a mini-elemental I guess, you keep your normal attacks still though. 

Multi-classing is different. You take a feat to multi-class, then if you want a certain power from the other class you then take another feat and you get 1 power from that class and lose 1 from your own. The other option is what I did with Caerwyn, is hybrid. It's closer to 3e multi-classing, but you give up a decent amount and take the least of the two classes usually (like if you hybrid a fighter/mage I think you only get the mage proficiencies). 



Friadoc said:


> I'm wondering a few things, including that I wanna play a pure rogue, again...so we'll see what I can work up with Buurt.
> 
> Of course, I also wanna play a halfling, again, but that's not something I'll be able to work up. *laughs*
> 
> Due to this coming game, as well as a Skype game with a friend of mine, I might turn my DDI back on. We'll see.




Hmmmm well yeah there's no scouts, but the PHB3 will have a class called the Seeker, the Primal Controller, he's an archer might fit the scout feel. ALthough for them, Wisdom is the most important stat, then Dex


----------



## Leif (Jan 16, 2010)

*Uulark the Paragon!*

Ooooh, goodie!  One note: I don't think Rhun is too crazy about 4E, at least not yet.  Last I checked with him, he turned my 4E game down cold in favor of concentrating on Pathfinder.  Ahh, send him off to play with DeWar.

Paragon Cleric -- I like the sound of that. 

And, to renau1g:  Welcome, Ryan!


----------



## Scotley (Jan 16, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> A fighter/rogue MC in 4e wouldn't usually be very effective.
> 
> A better idea would be to divorce Rogash's concept from his mechanics for a moment, and ask, "What makes Rogash, Rogash?"
> 
> ...




Yeah, he was really built from the concept of a behind the lines warrior. Just enough stealth and speed to get in and then enough oomph to kick some tail. A brutal rogue might be the way to go, but am I going to be limited to light blades and slings for most of the powers? That sort of tosses out his axe, bow and pole arm. Where are the hybrid rules? Dragon? I've got most of them, nearly all the books but not access to the compendium and character builder.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 16, 2010)

Dragon 375. one thing though no matter hybrid, multi-class, whatever, you can't use sneak attack anymore without light blade/sling/crossbow.


----------



## Scotley (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah, so I'm thinking rogue won't be the primary class. Rogash with a short sword just wouldn't be the same character.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 16, 2010)

It's too bad because the fighter/rogue just doesn't work well in 4e unfortunately, as that was my wheelhouse in 3e the sneaky fighting type...

Edit: Oh, Leif, thanks for the welcome. I'll likely just keep hanging around for the next few months.


----------



## Scotley (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah, a long standing favorite of mine too. Going back to my earliest days of 1e. I'll delve deep into the books and see if I can find a way to make the concept work.


----------



## jkason (Jan 16, 2010)

Question: does the character builder actually have descriptions of the powers / skills / feats as you choose them, or just list them by name? Since it's looking like Shai would best be recreated though a ranger / druid or ranger / warden, I just realized that if there's some level of descriptive text in the CB, then $10 for a month of ddi definitely beats $60 for two supplements, at least while this is the only 4e game I'm involved in.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 16, 2010)

If you want a sample I believe there's a demo of the CB available for trial on WOTC website. 

The CB does have details and descriptions of powers, classes, etc. The full text is printed from the books. 

Ex. Power - Thorn Strike - it lists the usability (at-will), range, type, target, defense (which defense score it attacks, AC, Ref, etc.) and Hit (damage/effects) + a sample fluff for you "Spectral thorns sprout from your weapon and grasp at the foe pulling it closer." 

Also, you can buy just 1 month of ddi and have access to all the previously updated material. I think it's $15 for 1 month?


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 16, 2010)

Scotley...I want to say there was some dwarven racial feat that let them use axes instead of light blades when sneak attacking, but I can't remember specifics. I'll pore through my sources and see if I can find it.

That'll at least solve part of the problem.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 16, 2010)

ok. i have a "what if " question for every one, especially Renalg. Now hear me out on this, I have not inteintions of causing the death of a character.

What if I make some bad action decisions or bad rolls and Caerwyn dies or worse, gets turned into a chaos beast?

Shayuri, calm down. this only a what if question.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 17, 2010)

Hee, no no, I'm fine. It's Tali that would need to calm down.


----------



## Leif (Jan 17, 2010)

Scotley said:


> Yeah, a long standing favorite of mine too. Going back to my earliest days of 1e. I'll delve deep into the books and see if I can find a way to make the concept work.



Scotley, I have an idea to make your Brutal Rogue work -- just spend a feat to take a martial weapon proficiency in whatever death-dealing hunk o' steel you choose.  Easy peasy roguish squeezy.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 17, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Hee, no no, I'm fine. It's Tali that would need to calm down.




*grin* Then we just won't mention my 'what if' question to her, then. Will we?


----------



## Scotley (Jan 17, 2010)

Leif said:


> Scotley, I have an idea to make your Brutal Rogue work -- just spend a feat to take a martial weapon proficiency in whatever death-dealing hunk o' steel you choose.  Easy peasy roguish squeezy.




My first thought too, but all the juicy rogue powers specifically say that they require a light blade or sling to work. So even if I could use the weapons the powers would be useless. I think the approach to take will be to go more fightery and just multiclass to take some Rogue utility powers so he can do locks and traps and such. Gotta figure out if that is possible with the RAW.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 17, 2010)

Ah ha! Here it is:

Tunnel Stalker
Prereq: Str 13, Con 13, Dwarf, Rogue
You can use any Rogue Power that requires a Light Blade while wielding an axe, hammer, or pick with one hand. You reduce Sneak Attack damage by one dice when wielding one of these other weapons.

So you'd get your sneak attacks, they'd just be reduced a dice, to compensate for the weapons' superior damage output compared to light blades.


----------



## Scotley (Jan 17, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Ah ha! Here it is:
> 
> Tunnel Stalker
> Prereq: Str 13, Con 13, Dwarf, Rogue
> ...




Perfect! Does multiclassing as a Rogue meet the prereq or will I need to be a Rogue as primary class? With this I might well be able to do Rogash as a straight 4e rogue. Gotta dig out Martial power.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 17, 2010)

multi-classing usually meets the prerequisites (at least in the CB).


----------



## Scotley (Jan 18, 2010)

Having done a little reading, I don't think multiclassing will be required thanks to the Tunnel Stalker feat. Now if I could only find an equivalent for the mithral breastplate...


----------



## Leif (Jan 18, 2010)

Looks to me like old Uulark will be just fine as a run-of-the-mill 4E cleric.  In fact, I might even wind up making him a little bit better?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 18, 2010)

Remember about magic items (pg. 143 DMG):

1=level -1
1=level
1=level +1
GP= one magic item of level -1


-IG


----------



## Leif (Jan 18, 2010)

So, is it official, IG, that we're starting at L11?  I haven't seen anyone specifically say so except DeWar, and we all know what his opinion is worth, hehe.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 18, 2010)

Leif said:


> So, is it official, IG, that we're starting at L11?  I haven't seen anyone specifically say so except DeWar, and we all know what his opinion is worth, hehe.




Yes, level 11.  Now there are all kinds of new nasties that I can use.  I just have to come up with a story to put them in..


----------



## Leif (Jan 18, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Yes, level 11.  Now there are all kinds of new nasties that I can use.  I just have to come up with a story to put them in..



We have faith in you, IG! 

I'll try to get Uulark leveled up to 4E 11, and submitted for your approval this week.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 18, 2010)

Leif said:


> So, is it official, IG, that we're starting at L11?  I haven't seen anyone specifically say so except DeWar, and we all know what his opinion is worth, hehe.




 pthffffft!


----------



## renau1g (Jan 18, 2010)

Scotley said:


> Having done a little reading, I don't think multiclassing will be required thanks to the Tunnel Stalker feat. Now if I could only find an equivalent for the mithral breastplate...




Well if you spend a feat to get chainmail armor you can buy Mithral Armor (or 2 feats to get Scale armor, no check penalty that way). You wouldn't be slowed obviously as you're a dwarf, but you can end with just as good an AC as scale with Hide armor as well (although Hide also has a check penalty).

The Mithral enchantment lets you 1/day halve the damage from a melee or ranged attack.

Edit: One other thing to note, Martial Power 2 will likely be out by the time this campaign switches over and will include a new rogue build (preview comes out Jan. 25 of it), maybe it could work for your PC as well?


----------



## Scotley (Jan 18, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Well if you spend a feat to get chainmail armor you can buy Mithral Armor (or 2 feats to get Scale armor, no check penalty that way). You wouldn't be slowed obviously as you're a dwarf, but you can end with just as good an AC as scale with Hide armor as well (although Hide also has a check penalty).
> 
> The Mithral enchantment lets you 1/day halve the damage from a melee or ranged attack.
> 
> Edit: One other thing to note, Martial Power 2 will likely be out by the time this campaign switches over and will include a new rogue build (preview comes out Jan. 25 of it), maybe it could work for your PC as well?




By taking out the medium armor category they've really limited options. With heavy armor I would lose dex. bonus and I expect that to be pretty substantial. In the interests of maintaining the style of the 3.5 character maybe I can talk IG into letting him use hide stats and call it a breastplate? 

I shall be eagerly awaiting Martial Power 2!


----------



## Leif (Jan 18, 2010)

Hey, Scotley, one more idea for you to consider:  a RAPIER is a light blade, does d8 damage and has a +3 proficiency bonus to hit.  So, again, one feat spent on a weapon proficiency makes a rogue a force to be reckoned with in melee.  Still leaves you with the whole armor issue, though....


----------



## Scotley (Jan 18, 2010)

I had not considered the Rapier. Is that a superior weapon? I guess I'm really just trying to make the 4e version as true to the 3.5 version as possible. I'm willing to take a suboptimal build to keep him true. I think with that Tunnel Stalker feat and a weapon feat I can use the axe and be happy. 

How's the Cleric coming? I'm playing a 4e cleric in Voda Vosa's game. They kick ass.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 18, 2010)

Scotley said:


> By taking out the medium armor category they've really limited options. With heavy armor I would lose dex. bonus and I expect that to be pretty substantial. In the interests of maintaining the style of the 3.5 character maybe I can talk IG into letting him use hide stats and call it a breastplate?
> 
> I shall be eagerly awaiting Martial Power 2!




Just an FYI, I messed around with the CB earlier today when I was looking into it. Assuming you start with 17 Dex and bump it up at 4 & 8 (incl the level 11 bump to all stats) you'll have 20 dex at level 11. +2 Mithral chainmail would give you 24 AC, +2 Mithral Scale is 25, +2 [any] Hide gives you 25. Not that big of a difference, but it's there FWIW. Both chain and hide cost a feat (hide's got a better return though).


----------



## Scotley (Jan 18, 2010)

That's sort of what I came up with too. I'll stick with leather or hide. So many cool feats to choose from for dwarves...


----------



## renau1g (Jan 18, 2010)

Yeah I can't wait to see you sneak attack with the waraxe . The bump in damage is well worth dropping 1d6 sneak attack...*thank Moradin for Dwarven Weapon Training *


----------



## Leif (Jan 18, 2010)

Scotley said:


> I had not considered the Rapier. Is that a superior weapon? I guess I'm really just trying to make the 4e version as true to the 3.5 version as possible. I'm willing to take a suboptimal build to keep him true. I think with that Tunnel Stalker feat and a weapon feat I can use the axe and be happy.
> 
> How's the Cleric coming? I'm playing a 4e cleric in Voda Vosa's game. They kick ass.



Yeah, it's a superior weapon at the bottom of p. 218.

Speaking of the cleric, AHEM, I have a question for IG:  I know that the idea is to make these characters 4E versions of our 3.5 characters, but is there even a chance that I could make Uulark as a Deva (PH2), since we didn't have that racial option in 3.5?  I'm thinking a Deva Devoted Cleric.


----------



## jkason (Jan 19, 2010)

So, I took the plunge and got the month of DDI. The compendium is far from the ideal way to learn the game, but since I managed to get the builder installed at work (I'd thought it was a webapp. Sadly, no, and doesn't run on macs, so I can't use it at home  ) I think I have at least a rudimentary understanding. 

Anyway, I'm sure it's probably a mess, but here's my first shot at Shai and Dys. Animal companions seem a whole lot tougher in 4e, though I suppose that's because they come at the expense of combat style for Rangers.

I tried to keep a basic concept in mind: Shai's an instinctive fighter influenced by the touch of nature--primarily through his bond with Dyspeer, though of late he's discovered the beast within himself, as well.

So, mostly focused on beast and beast form powers, almost all melee-oriented, with a few nature tricks thrown in. Summoning seemed in keeping with his past and his beasty leanings, and the current lightning storm made picking at least one elemental power seem right. Rather than keep stepping on Talashia's toes, though, I let the Frostwolf pelt item inspire me to go for a cold attack rather than electricity.

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I still only have the vaguest idea what I'm doing, and I've never been especially good at not managing to work at cross-purposes with my build choices. 

jason


View attachment ShaiFirstPass.pdf


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 19, 2010)

Leif said:


> Yeah, it's a superior weapon at the bottom of p. 218.
> 
> Speaking of the cleric, AHEM, I have a question for IG:  I know that the idea is to make these characters 4E versions of our 3.5 characters, but is there even a chance that I could make Uulark as a Deva (PH2), since we didn't have that racial option in 3.5?  I'm thinking a Deva Devoted Cleric.




Umm, no.



jkason said:


> So, I took the plunge and got the month of DDI. The compendium is far from the ideal way to learn the game, but since I managed to get the builder installed at work (I'd thought it was a webapp. Sadly, no, and doesn't run on macs, so I can't use it at home  ) I think I have at least a rudimentary understanding.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure it's probably a mess, but here's my first shot at Shai and Dys. Animal companions seem a whole lot tougher in 4e, though I suppose that's because they come at the expense of combat style for Rangers.
> 
> ...




After only a cursory glance, Shai looks god to me.  You've got the wild shape, and you've got Dyspeer... those are pretty much the key elements that make Shai Shai.

Honestly, I probably won't give it too thorough of a look.  As long as it says "legal" in the builder and you haven't obtained too much equipment, I'm happy.


-IG


----------



## Leif (Jan 19, 2010)

Leif said:
			
		

> Speaking of the cleric, AHEM, I have a question for IG: I know that the idea is to make these characters 4E versions of our 3.5 characters, but is there even a chance that I could make Uulark as a Deva (PH2), since we didn't have that racial option in 3.5? I'm thinking a Deva Devoted Cleric.






industrygothica said:


> Umm, no.



So does that mean that I'm limited to human?


----------



## renau1g (Jan 19, 2010)

jkason said:


> So, I took the plunge and got the month of DDI. The compendium is far from the ideal way to learn the game, but since I managed to get the builder installed at work (I'd thought it was a webapp. Sadly, no, and doesn't run on macs, so I can't use it at home  ) I think I have at least a rudimentary understanding.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure it's probably a mess, but here's my first shot at Shai and Dys. Animal companions seem a whole lot tougher in 4e, though I suppose that's because they come at the expense of combat style for Rangers.
> 
> ...




One thing I noticed is your magic items are too low (you're short-changing yourself). At level 11 you get a level 12 item, a level 11 item and a level 10 plus gold = to a level 10 item. 

You could grab a +3 weapon a +3 armor and still have a level 10 item + level 10 gold


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 19, 2010)

Leif said:


> So does that mean that I'm limited to human?




You're limited to whatever race Uulark is now.  I've always assumed that to be human, but granted, I don't recall ever looking specifically.  At least not recently.

So, in a nutshell, yes. 


-IG


----------



## Leif (Jan 19, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> You're limited to whatever race Uulark is now.  I've always assumed that to be human, but granted, I don't recall ever looking specifically.  At least not recently.
> 
> So, in a nutshell, yes.
> -IG



He is, indeed, human.  Ok, well, I had a hankering to try something different with the plethora of new options available in 4E, but, if 'tis not to be then 'tis not to be.  *sigh*  I still intend to re-make Uulark somewhat to take advantage of 4E options, though, if that will be ok?  Like for instance, one of the tricks that I have learned is to use a feat to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).  Will that be permissible?


----------



## jkason (Jan 19, 2010)

renau1g said:


> One thing I noticed is your magic items are too low (you're short-changing yourself). At level 11 you get a level 12 item, a level 11 item and a level 10 plus gold = to a level 10 item.
> 
> You could grab a +3 weapon a +3 armor and still have a level 10 item + level 10 gold




The only thing I saw in the CB for figuring out equipment was the 'make level appropriate' button for my money, which came out to 5000gp. So, In addition to that I could get three upper level magic items? Am I then limited on buying magic items other than those three with the money? 

Actually, while I'm expressing confusion, I still haven't figured out why Shai's STR attacks are so much higher than his WIS attacks. STR is +5 and WIS is +4; He currently has a +2 Warhammer and a +1 Totem. So the difference in those bonuses is only 2, but the actual attacks are 14 for STR and 10 for WIS. There's another +2 bonus coming from ... 'prop'?

thanks,

jason


----------



## renau1g (Jan 19, 2010)

jkason said:


> The only thing I saw in the CB for figuring out equipment was the 'make level appropriate' button for my money, which came out to 5000gp. So, In addition to that I could get three upper level magic items? Am I then limited on buying magic items other than those three with the money?
> 
> Actually, while I'm expressing confusion, I still haven't figured out why Shai's STR attacks are so much higher than his WIS attacks. STR is +5 and WIS is +4; He currently has a +2 Warhammer and a +1 Totem. So the difference in those bonuses is only 2, but the actual attacks are 14 for STR and 10 for WIS. There's another +2 bonus coming from ... 'prop'?
> 
> ...




Magic items - yes, you get 5k gold + the three higher level magic items. So you get the three magic items and can spend the 5k on other items

Re: Wis/Str - the Str based attacks benefit from the +2 prof. bonus from your weapon. Weapons target AC, which is typically higher than non-AC defenses, which Wis attacks target.

All Weapons have a proficiency bonus (+2 or +3 depending on the weapon). Implements don't.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 19, 2010)

I have answers!

The PHB outlines the guidelines for starting above 1st level. You get 3 magic items which are not purchased with money in the character builder. You use the Add button to select them. These items are limited by relative level, not by cash. Specifically you get an item that's one level over your character's...an item of the same level...and item one level lower.

Then you get cash in gold pieces equal to the purchase price of an item one level lower than yours. You can use that money on lower level items...on rituals and alchemical formulae...on whatever you want.

The reason your weapon attacks have a higher bonus is because weapons have a Proficiency bonus (it says 'prof' I suspect, not 'prop') that mathematically "corrects" the fact that weapons typically target AC, which is a few points higher, in general, than the defenses targeted by your Wisdom attacks. In short:

Weapon attack bonus = 1/2 level + relevant attribute + proficiency + enhancement + any relevant item/feat/circmstance mods.

Your wisdom attacks are Implement-based and the formula goes like this:

Implement attack bonus = 1/2 level + relevant attribute + enhancement (from magic implement) + any relevant item/feat/circumstance mods.


----------



## jkason (Jan 19, 2010)

Hooray for clarification and answers.  It all makes more sense now. Like I said, I'm 'learning' through just the CB and the Compendium, the latter of which doesn't appear to actually have 'all previously published content,' or that content isn't anywhere I expect it to be; sadly, the holes seem to be in the most basic elements. Like: weapons having their own proficiency bonus. I see it now in the item descripitions in CB, but nothing in compendium seems to come up explaining that you are both proficient in weapons and that the weapons themselves have a proficiency bonus (as an aside: slightly confusing, that terminology overlap.  ). 

Ah, and how do powers that have 'until the end of the encounter' in their description work outside of combat? In fiddling, I discovered the Dark Harbinger druid utility (a daily power), and I can see a fair number of uses for being able to fly for a short time, but how do you determine how long that is when there aren't monsters about?

Actually, for that matter, wild shape used to confer disguise bonuses (i.e. folk would mistake you for whatever critter you'd turned into). The new editions doesn't seem to make mention of that. Is it gone, or restricted to some power?

Thanks again for everyone being patient with my learning curve. A second run at Shai should be up in the near future. 

jason


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 19, 2010)

An "encounter" out of combat is 5 minutes, basically. So if you have a power that lasts "until the end of the encounter" than it's assumed it lasts until the end of combat, or 5 minutes if there is no combat.

Sustainable powers...are murkier. I think they should be of indefinite duration as long as you retain consciousness and don't try to do too much at once (ie - you have to be able to use that action to sustain). However, I'm not sure that's the default assumption.

As for wildshape, it doesn't provide any Bluff bonuses...I think it just flat out turns you into the likeness of an animal (something no amount of Bluff would normally let you do). You might roll Bluff if you were trying to "act normal" as an animal, but you don't get a bonus. The Wildshape is what lets you roll at all.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 20, 2010)

yet people wonder why i hate forth edition.


----------



## Leif (Jan 20, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> yet people wonder why i hate forth edition.



Awww!  Buck up, DeWar!


----------



## Friadoc (Jan 20, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> yet people wonder why i hate forth edition.




I prefer Pathfinder, yet I'll play 4e...it's definitely a slightly different kettle of fish, that's for sure.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 20, 2010)

Ha!Kettle of fish! I knew there was something fishey going on! If leif liked it, it had to be fishey!!!


----------



## Leif (Jan 20, 2010)

Ahem, well, I must say that I like the SCALE of the game... 

Oh, that's just fin, isn't it?  DeWar is such a little gill.


----------



## jkason (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't know that I've been interacting with it long enough to really have a preference. As someone who's used to 3.5, the learning curve was certainly easier for Pathfinder, both due to the online SRD and the fact those rules are designed to be enhancements of 3.5e, whereas 4e definitely appears to be an attempt to re-envision the system with an eye to streamlining bookkeeping.

In any case, I'm sure I'll get my head wrapped around the changes to mechanics eventually, and the mechanics are just an excuse to continue the RP, anyway. 

jason


----------



## jkason (Jan 20, 2010)

*Shai round 2*

Okay, here's the second shot at Shai. Swapped out one power so Shai could take wing (seems sad to have wildshape without at least a little flying.  ) and updated with better magic items. Again, if anyone sees anything that just looks wrong (or like a supremely poor choice), let me know. Still figuring this stuff out. 

jason

View attachment ShaiRound2.pdf


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 20, 2010)

I was taking a look at your characters' backgrounds today to get a little refresher on the PC's.  As you all know, we're switching this to my homebrew setting (as yet unnamed), and any inspiration I get is worth gold to me.

I'm going to attach the regional map to this post.  Although I'm still adding small details, it's mostly finished.  This is the same map that renau1g and I were talking about.  There is a city called Ironfell (just left of the big shield) that's as good a place as any to transplant this adventure.  So Irongate will now be Ironfell, and all that entails.

Please review your characters' backgrounds and make any modifications that are necessary to make them less Greyhawk-ish and more Romedan (Romeda is the name of the region, but not the world, pronounced "row-MEE-da"). 

Bu'urt's will require the most change, as his is the most Greyhawk specific.  None of the other locations really have a history yet, so you're free to pick from them to help you.  I'm also not averse to adding more towns or features to match your backgrounds; just tell me where you need it.

As far as religion goes, just use the default d&d pantheon.


-IG


----------



## jkason (Jan 20, 2010)

The barbarian tribes of the north seem kind of perfect as a starting point for Shai. Do they have any names or backgrounds yet? 

jason


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 20, 2010)

jkason said:


> The barbarian tribes of the north seem kind of perfect as a starting point for Shai. Do they have any names or backgrounds yet?
> 
> jason




As this map is being made for a cartography challenge, the only thought I've put into it thus far is aesthetic in nature.  I currently have nothing in mind for that region, so do with it what you will.... that'll give me something to build on later when I go to write it all down.


-IG


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 20, 2010)

Shayuri, shall we say that our characters are from the forest of endless dawn?


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 20, 2010)

Don't see why not. Perhaps a logging village on a river...

Talashia would have left the village to seek instruction as her magic powers manifested.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 20, 2010)

Speaking of Talashia... do you have her background written down somewhere?  It's not on her sheet.  At least not her current one.


-IG


----------



## renau1g (Jan 21, 2010)

So... I was just reviewing the re-recruitment thread from 2008. I had submitted a PC back then for this game (it was one of my first ones, maybe the second one?)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/talking-talk/219537-adventurers-wanted-1.html

I did look through pages of the old OOC thread and couldn't find Shay's BG though


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

Odd. Thought it was on the sheet. Well, it's not exactly a novel in length. I'll be sure to put it on the new sheet.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 21, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Odd. Thought it was on the sheet. Well, it's not exactly a novel in length. I'll be sure to put it on the new sheet.




Any way I can get a look at it before then?


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

Wow...I could have sworn I wrote it out somewhere, but looking everywhere, I can't find it. So I'll write it out here and now.

Talashia was born to a poor peasant family living in a small village in the Forest of Endless Dawn. While she was pregnant with Talashia, her mother was caught out in a storm and struck by lightning. Though injured by the experience, she survived to give birth to her daughter amidst another great storm. The baby had stark white hair that never grew darker, and pale blue-grey eyes. 

As she grew up Talashia had no interest in politics like her firebrand older brother Caerwyn. She was fascinated by the world around her; the trees and water and living things. She was especially drawn to inclement weather and showed no sign of fear at thunder and lightning. In turn, storms seemed drawn to her as well, and the village saw many more than usual while she was growing up.

Talashia's magic began to manifest when she was still fairly young; around ten years of age. Cold orbs of light would hover and dart around her, and winds blew in her presence when all around it was calm. She herself was delighted by these phenomena, but others in the village began growing fearful. More than once Caerwyn found himself having to get Talashia out of trouble. However, as he began to roam more, the task of raising Talashia amidst worries for her safety became harder and harder. After one close call too many, Talashia decided to venture away from the village and seek instruction in how to use her ever-growing magical gifts.

It was in her studies that Talashia first learned of the rites leading to the assumption of an Elemental Savant. From the start it became a way she could not only enhance her control over the elements, but even perhaps offer her a road to transcend her own mortality. Elementals, after all, were ageless.

She began making arrangements to become a Savant, one of which was getting in touch with a scribe in Ironfell who was willing to pen her a dangerous and legally questionable scroll of Planar Binding so she could perform the calling ritual necessary. When she lost track of that scribe, she left the school to track him down...she went to Ironfell, unaware of what, and who, was waiting for her there.


----------



## Leif (Jan 21, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> I was taking a look at your characters' backgrounds today to get a little refresher on the PC's.  As you all know, we're switching this to my homebrew setting (as yet unnamed), and any inspiration I get is worth gold to me.
> 
> I'm going to attach the regional map to this post.  Although I'm still adding small details, it's mostly finished.  This is the same map that renau1g and I were talking about.  There is a city called Ironfell (just left of the big shield) that's as good a place as any to transplant this adventure.  So Irongate will now be Ironfell, and all that entails.
> 
> ...



IG, I thought you knew this, but maybe I'd better spell it out for you --  I've never been just really crazy about Uulark in his present incarnation.  I was trying to make him more palatable to me by changing his race, etc.  But you've put the kaibosh on that idea.  Are you going to allow me to adjust him at all to my preferences, or are you insistent that he stays the same, even though I'm quite unhappy with him?  If your choice is the latter, then I'm afraid that I will have to give my continued participation in this game some serious thought.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

Leif, if you're so unhappy with Uulark that you feel like you want to change him fundamentally, would making a new character also solve the problem?

Or are you trying to preserve the RP aspect of him while changing his mechanics?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 21, 2010)

Leif said:


> IG, I thought you knew this, but maybe I'd better spell it out for you --  I've never been just really crazy about Uulark in his present incarnation.  I was trying to make him more palatable to me by changing his race, etc.  But you've put the kaibosh on that idea.  Are you going to allow me to adjust him at all to my preferences, or are you insistent that he stays the same, even though I'm quite unhappy with him?  If your choice is the latter, then I'm afraid that I will have to give my continued participation in this game some serious thought.




When I was reading Uulark's background yesterday, his physical description reminded me of a shifter for some reason.  Deva just seem so regal and clean to me, not what I have come to envision from Uulark.

That being said, if you are that unhappy with him, then by all means do what you need to do to get yourself happy with him. You're not allowed to bow out of this game (), and if that means making Uulark a deva, then go ahead.


----------



## jkason (Jan 21, 2010)

You know, with talk of inspiration, it occurs to me that the conversion itself might be a jumping-off point for the story. We know that Talashia's alchemist contact was doing Horrible Experiments, the result of which was the current chaos beast problem, but which by no means needs to be limited to that. I seem to recall us walling off a large room that looked full of bodies, for example. 

One wonders if the endgame of "Those Left Behind" might not involve the culmination of those experiments and / or some sort of chaos-y build up from having this many chaos beasts in one place. I don't think I'd like 'transported to another world', but what if the net effect of what's going on is that the world (or perhaps just we) change on a fundamental level? It covers some of the smaller mechanical inconsitencies (class shifts and slightly different magic items, etc), but also allows for things like Uulark changing bodily into something else without our having to pretend he's always been something other than human.

Just brainstorming. 
****************************

And back to my slow learning curve on 4e: how many healing surges are standard to have to use in the course of a day? Dyspeer has a lot more hit points and higher defenses than Shai, but only has 2 healing surges. I see that Rangers can Raise dead companions, so I assume the lower surges correlate to the lower Raise cost vs. humans, but from a character perspective, I can see Shai going more than a little nuts if he's constantly watching Dys die and having to raise him. 

There's at least one power (Invigorate the beast) Shai can take that lets him heal Dys once a day 'as if he used a healing surge'. I assume that means he wouldn't actually need to use one. Shai had it earlier but I swapped it for the raven form. Are there other options like that? I'm thinking about switching Shai's paragon path to Sky Hunter to cover flying, and swapping back the Invigorate power, but I don't know if I'm being paranoid or not about Dyspeer's survival chances with only 2 surges? 

********************************

On the actual game we're wrapping up: IG, are we waiting on the beasties to attack, or are you waiting on actions from one or more of us?

jason


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

Meep, I think he's waiting on me...I'll try to get a post in soon.

As for healing surges...I seem to recall that a Beastmaster ranger can use his own surges to heal the beast too. I don't have the book in front of me though, so I may be wrong on that.

As for how many surges per day...there's no easy way to answer that. Some battles you'll fight and not spend any; only using a surge or two after the fight to heal up.

Other days, we'll have a tuff boss battle and you'll be wanting moar moar moar surges.

That said, Dyspeer has good HP and defenses. I think if you monitor his health, and don't necessarily frontline with him every single fight, you'll be fine just using his two surges most of the time. And if you can use your own surges on him, then that'll easily cover the times when his two aren't enough.


----------



## jkason (Jan 21, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> As for healing surges...I seem to recall that a Beastmaster ranger can use his own surges to heal the beast too. I don't have the book in front of me though, so I may be wrong on that.




That'd be ideal, especially since Shai already took the Durable feat, so he has 10 surges a day, which is certainly far in excess of Dyspeer's. I can't find anything in the Compendium (but I think I've already mentioned that some stuff just seems un-findable with that tool), and since one of the Feral Spirit Paragon Path features was the ability to spend a surge for your companion's Second Wind, I guess I just assumed that meant you couldn't do that previously. I did find this on a forum: 



> Under Beast Companions And Healing section, we have 'other healing' which says: when you are adjacent to your beast companion, you can spend a minor action and one of your healing surges to heal the beast companion as if it had spent a healing surge.




I'm going to be out and about tonight. Maybe I can scam a look at Martial Power in the bookstore and verify if that's in there. It'd go a long way to assuaging my fears ... though I may still swap Shai out for Sky Hunter even without that; extra flying is very hard to pass up.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

Hehe

Flying is cool, yar.

Just be careful...it's a lot less useful for melee guys than it is for ranged guys. Melee guys have to land to get their attacks in eventually.

Though having a means to reach pesky flying enemies is ALWAYS nice.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 21, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Hehe
> 
> Flying is cool, yar.
> 
> ...




And a reason to incorporate pesky flying enemies into a game is nicer.


----------



## jkason (Jan 21, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> And a reason to incorporate pesky flying enemies into a game is nicer.




I'd be worried about giving the DM ideas, but I seem to recall a decent number of flying opponents. There was a flying ant-dwarf in The Hive, that demon in the tunnels was a flyer, and that damnable pixie with the necromantic staff was both a flyer and invisible. 

Of course, the more I start going over Shai's build, the more I'm wondering about the general utility of wild shape for him. If I understand it correctly, unless he uses a beast form power, he just gets his basic unarmed attack in beast form (10 to hit, 1d4+5 damage). His multiclassing gives him one at-will beast form power but makes it an encounter power, then two more feats give him the option of one more encounter attack and one daily attack power (currently I've got a summons and a wind attack in those slots). If he *does* go for Sky Hunter, he gets one more (flying) attack per encounter. the Sky Hunter action could conceivably make one of his others flying, as well, I suppose. 

Four attacks, (possibly) two flying for one encounter each day, three for the rest, is seeming like not worth all the slots it takes up. Especially if it encourages IG to use more flying opponents.  I'm not planning to give up the wildshaping as part of Shai's character no matter what; just wondering if there's anything I can do to make it more useful in combat than background flavor.

jason


----------



## renau1g (Jan 21, 2010)

Unfortunately, Druids are one class I know little to nothing about (along with Beastmaster Rangers) 

Shay might have more insight.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 21, 2010)

jkason said:


> I'd be worried about giving the DM ideas, but I seem to recall a decent number of flying opponents. There was a flying ant-dwarf in The Hive, that demon in the tunnels was a flyer, and that damnable pixie with the necromantic staff was both a flyer and invisible.




Hey, I liked that pixie!  Speaking of which, Talashia's still got that staff, doesn't she?  I'm gonna have to get that statted up I suppose.


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 21, 2010)

We could say she 'sold' it or broke it down or whatever. She's not really big on summoning zombies. It gives folks the wrong impression. 

Plus, staves in 3e are reeeeheeeeally different than staves in 4e. In the first, they're spell batteries. In the second, they're essentially weapons that enhance magic power.

Converting one to the other would be difficult. More so than it's probably worth, especially for an item she doesn't really want in the first place. 

---------
As for how to make wildshape more useful...

You could Paragon Multiclass into Druid. That gives you a Druid at-will that's REALLY at-will. Also, take a look at druid feats...some of them affect you while in Beast form and can be pretty nice. You qualify for druid feats even without Paragon Multiclass.

You might bat your lashes at IG and see if he'd okay swapping one of your barbie at-wills with a Beast at-will from the druid class too. This is no net gain in powers, so it wouldn't be unbalanced. As a human you get 3 at-wills, so you could spare one without much trouble.

It'd be a house rule, but I think a fair one...and since a Barbarian/Druid MC is really not optimized in the least (quite the contrary), it'd be a nice gesture.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 21, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> We could say she 'sold' it or broke it down or whatever. She's not really big on summoning zombies. It gives folks the wrong impression.
> 
> Plus, staves in 3e are reeeeheeeeally different than staves in 4e. In the first, they're spell batteries. In the second, they're essentially weapons that enhance magic power.
> 
> Converting one to the other would be difficult. More so than it's probably worth, especially for an item she doesn't really want in the first place.




Yes, but the fact that you don't want it will make getting rid of it all the more fun.

Hmm, does anyone else smell that?


----------



## jkason (Jan 21, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> You could Paragon Multiclass into Druid. That gives you a Druid at-will that's REALLY at-will. Also, take a look at druid feats...some of them affect you while in Beast form and can be pretty nice. You qualify for druid feats even without Paragon Multiclass.




D'oh! I totally missed Paragon Multiclass. That looks like what I was after, honestly. Attack-y flight seems pretty rare for wildshapers, anyway (If I count right, Sky Hunter's only get two flying attacks (assuming they have an action point to use), three at 20th level). I'd rather have Shai's beast form be moderately bitey and keep the more utilitarian flight of Black Harbinger. And that lets me concentrate on Ranger powers during level ups, since I can spend Paragon slots on the druid stuff. 



> It'd be a house rule, but I think a fair one...and since a Barbarian/Druid MC is really not optimized in the least (quite the contrary), it'd be a nice gesture.




I think it's safe to say I'm very not good at optimizing. Most of the time, I just hope I haven't built someone who's completely useless next to the rest of the party. 



Shayuri said:


> We could say she 'sold' it or broke it down or whatever. She's not really big on summoning zombies. It gives folks the wrong impression.






industrygothica said:


> Yes, but the fact that you don't want it will make getting rid of it all the more fun.
> 
> Hmm, does anyone else smell that?




heh. Well, the characters were in a quandry about it back when they figured out what it did, not wanting to keep it, but not wanting to sell it to someone who'd use it for more badness. 

Though, given the large number of chaos beasties, maybe we should reconsider that 'send the skeletons after them' plan.


----------



## Leif (Jan 22, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Leif, if you're so unhappy with Uulark that you feel like you want to change him fundamentally, would making a new character also solve the problem?
> 
> Or are you trying to preserve the RP aspect of him while changing his mechanics?



Not entirely sure, I guess.  A new character would certainly do the trick, though.  But I thought that was kinda vorboten by IG?


industrygothica said:


> When I was reading Uulark's background yesterday, his physical description reminded me of a shifter for some reason.  Deva just seem so regal and clean to me, not what I have come to envision from Uulark.
> 
> That being said, if you are that unhappy with him, then by all means do what you need to do to get yourself happy with him. You're not allowed to bow out of this game (), and if that means making Uulark a deva, then go ahead.



Shifter could work, I suppose.  Deva just looked so coooool, and it's so new to me.  But, then again, so is shifter...


Shayuri said:


> You might bat your lashes at IG and see if he'd okay swapping one of your barbie at-wills with a Beast at-will from the druid class too.



I thnk you're confusing jkason with YOU! 


jkason said:


> I think it's safe to say I'm very not good at optimizing. Most of the time, I just hope I haven't built someone who's completely useless next to the rest of the party.



Bet I can outdo you for being optimally retarded!


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 22, 2010)

Leif said:


> Not entirely sure, I guess.  A new character would certainly do the trick, though.  But I thought that was kinda vorboten by IG?




I would personally rather you stick with Uulark, at least for now, in one incarnation or another.

What is it, exactly, that you're not liking about him?  Is it just that he's human, or is it something else?


----------



## renau1g (Jan 22, 2010)

One suggestion is the Deva Heritage feat, perhaps could come out during the story? 

[sblock=feat]
Deva Heritage [Deva Bloodline]

Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Living humanoid race
Benefit: You gain astral splendor as a utility power. Also, you gain a +2 bonus to Perception and Insight checks against angels, devas, devils, and rakshasas.

Feat PowerAstral Splendor

You take on an imperious aspect, and silvery light—that of your stral soul—shines from your eyes, mouth, and heart

Daily      Stance
Minor Action      Personal

Requirement: You must be not bloodied

Effect: Until the stance ends, enemies take a -2 penalty to attack rolls made against you. You also shed bright light within 6 squares.

Special: This stance ends when you become bloodied.[/sblock]


----------



## jkason (Jan 22, 2010)

Okay, so I got a look at the pages in Martial Power that don't seem to be in the Compendium, and I verified that Shai can use his own surges for Dyspeer if he's adjascent (also nice: When Shai takes the Second Wind action, Dyspeer can, too). So that conundrum is more or less solved for me.

Of course, in looking I found yet another rule that I can't seem to find in Compendium, on commanding beast companions. Unlike 3.5e, companion defaults are to do nothing but stay near you; they don't act independently except in the case where the Ranger is incapacitated in some way. The page lists the action it takes to command a beast companion, which seems to be more or less the equivalent to what the action is. Attack is a standard action, Defend (take total defense), is standard, Move is move (and they can both move).

Now, what's odd is that both the Defense and Move commands explicitly say that the ranger and companion can both take the action (or only one can if they so choose). So Shai and Dyspeer can both use his move action to move, or his standard action to go on defense. But Attack doesn't seem to have that qualifier, and didn't read like 3.5's 'attack' command (i.e. 'attack until foe is dead or otherwise commanded').

So, does that mean--barring powers that let them both attack or spending action points--in any given round either Shai or Dyspeer can attack, but not both? 

jason


----------



## renau1g (Jan 22, 2010)

I believe that's accurate. Only 1 of you can attack.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 22, 2010)

ya know, for some reason, that does not make sense to me. why is that rule like that? I _really_ don't understand that.


----------



## jkason (Jan 22, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> ya know, for some reason, that does not make sense to me. why is that rule like that? I _really_ don't understand that.




I'm guessing for balance reasons. Companions seem much tougher in 4e (and wolves are pretty middle-road. Just flipping around character builder, if the companion's a bear or griffin, it's even tougher). Letting them act / attack independently basically gives you another basic attack (possibly stronger than your own) for free. I can see why that might seem like an unfair advantage for that build over the other ranger options. 

It's harder to reconcile intuitively. I can see a well-trained animal holding off attacking until given the word by its controller, but it seems less likely that you'd need to tell it to keep going every couple seconds or else it just stands and wags its tail.  

It's not a really big deal to me, honestly. Just wanted to make sure I had the mechanics down. 

jason


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 22, 2010)

Okay, first of all, it's a bit more complicated than that.

A beast is capable of some very limited independent actions without using powers, like taking OA's, or acting if the ranger is unable to act (but then, only to take actions that directly pertain to rescuing the ranger).

Also, many ranger powers designed for beastmaster builds DO allow the ranger and the beast to attack simultaneously, or for one (or both) to move and then attack...or for the beast to take special actions like charging, tripping, sonic 'howl' attacks and so on. So basically, most of the fun stuff you'd want to do with a beastmaster ranger are in the powers.

Why is that?

The ultimate economy of 4e combat is called "the economy of actions." In 3e there were many ways to gain multiple actions in a turn. The designers of 4e decided that they wanted things to be simpler. One character, one standard action per turn. Summon something? Fine. Still have just one standard action per turn. Have a familiar? Ditto. Animal companion? Awesome...still just one standard action per turn. You can use your Action Point, of course. But the idea is that just because your character has an associated critter doesn't mean you get twice as many actions per turn as the poor schmoe who doesn't.

This affects Talashia too. She now uses her actions to direct Shazi. He doesn't give her any more actions per turn either.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, Shazi I can see requireing Tali's std action use. He probably would want to argue or make some sort of snide remark, which would take up time! but the idea of having to tell a creature to cotinue to "defend" or "attack" or it will stand around just wagging its tail seem forein to me. 

Well, that is all of the intruding I will do for now.


----------



## jkason (Jan 22, 2010)

Makes sense to me. I think you probably have to work a little harder to make it work outside the mechanics (I'd guess something about the heavy amount of control it takes to train an animal in complex battle tactics suppresses their fight or flight instincts), but I don't think it makes play unbearable. Shai has a couple of the 'both attack' powers already, and just because Dys isn't attacking doesn't mean he's not a credible flank with the growling and the snapping and the like. 

This did make me take a second look at summoning. Shai only has one summon power, but I'd better make sure I understand that, too. He can order an attack the round the bear appears, and can order another in subsequent rounds by spending a standard action. But there's also an 'instinctive' section to the power that includes attacking an adjacent enemy or moving to an attack-able square so he can attack the next round. Does Shai have to spend actions to 'activate' the instinctive response, as well? If he does, I might want to scrap that power, since in most cases he'll already be splitting actioons with Dyspeer, and a third party doesn't seem particularly useful. 

jason


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh right, druidic summons are a bit different. Their instinctive actions trigger on any turn that they don't recieve a specific command.

Just read them carefully, because sometimes the instinctive actions aren't very discriminating in who they can hit.


----------



## Leif (Jan 23, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> I would personally rather you stick with Uulark, at least for now, in one incarnation or another.
> 
> What is it, exactly, that you're not liking about him?  Is it just that he's human, or is it something else?



I'm not sure why, exactly, but I've always felt that he was a bit sub-par as compared to the rest of the party.  But, if we're all going to be re-made as 4E with the same points for the build (how many is that, exactly, as per PH standard?  Or are we using the standard array for abilities?) then that won't be an issue at all.  Actually, I quite like the shifter cleric idea!  I'm thinking Longtooth Shifter, too.  I even had a deity planned, but I can't remember which one just now.  Maybe Ioun?  I know she was one of the unaligned ones, and one of the SHE ones, I think.


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 23, 2010)

Leif said:


> I'm not sure why, exactly, but I've always felt that he was a bit sub-par as compared to the rest of the party.  But, if we're all going to be re-made as 4E with the same points for the build (how many is that, exactly, as per PH standard?  Or are we using the standard array for abilities?) then that won't be an issue at all.  Actually, I quite like the shifter cleric idea!  I'm thinking Longtooth Shifter, too.  I even had a deity planned, but I can't remember which one just now.  Maybe Ioun?  I know she was one of the unaligned ones, and one of the SHE ones, I think.




Standard point buy.  I believe all of the arrays use the same point buy, so you can use those too.  Honestly, whenever I make a character in the character builder, I just use the auto-roll feature; it does a fine job of adjudicating the scores appropriately.

If you're going to play a shifter, all I ask is that you RP the change somehow--either a big secret you've kept from everyone, or an ability you never knew you had until it manifested.  Does that make sense?


-IG


----------



## renau1g (Jan 23, 2010)

re: Auto-Pick.

Be careful as it will always put an 18 in your main stat, sometimes not the best as it really limits your secondary ones. I generally prefer two 16's and either 2 12's or one 13 and an 11. 

Just my two coppers.

Re: Shifter cleric, IG you could have Uulark bit by a werewolf and the belladonna wasn't fully effective.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 23, 2010)

renau1g said:


> re: Auto-Pick.
> 
> Be careful as it will always put an 18 in your main stat, sometimes not the best as it really limits your secondary ones. I generally prefer two 16's and either 2 12's or one 13 and an 11.
> 
> ...




or the full moon has not happened sincd he was bit, but that time is coming up reeeeeely soon. (like when the current game is done!)


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 24, 2010)

Is there "downtime" between the end of one and the beginning of the next?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Is there "downtime" between the end of one and the beginning of the next?




Considering that I'm still not sure how this one is going to end, let's cross that bridge when we get to it.


-IG


----------



## Leif (Jan 24, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Standard point buy.  I believe all of the arrays use the same point buy, so you can use those too.



Great!


industrygothica said:


> If you're going to play a shifter, all I ask is that you RP the change somehow--either a big secret you've kept from everyone, or an ability you never knew you had until it manifested.  Does that make sense?



Poifectly!  [It's interesting that you mention that, because I already had a transition planned for a Deva -- kind of a shucking of the ol' cocoon dealy.  Oh, well, no matter now.]


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 29, 2010)

I really need to check the d&d product listings more often.  Has anyone seen this little gem?  Sure you have...




... And now I'm wondering why no one has told me about it. 



-IG


----------



## renau1g (Jan 29, 2010)

Because I believe we all know better than telling the DM about products that "presents a *multitude of new monsters, mighty primordials, and powerful demons*, as well as adventure hooks, encounters, hazards, and everything Dungeon Masters need to make the Elemental Chaos a featured setting in their campaigns" (bold mine)


----------



## Leif (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm embarrassed to admit that while I own a copy of _The Plane Below_, I have not yet even cracked it enough to take a widdle biddy peek inside.


----------



## jkason (Jan 29, 2010)

See, I read the description and inadvertantly transposed the second and third letters in "slaads." I don't suppose they're actually plant demons, are they? Because I think they should be. And even if they aren't, I will forever more picture them as green, leafy evil. 

Sorry, puns (especially name puns) are my kryptonite. 

jason


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 29, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Because I believe we all know better than telling the DM about products that "presents a *multitude of new monsters, mighty primordials, and powerful demons*, as well as adventure hooks, encounters, hazards, and everything Dungeon Masters need to make the Elemental Chaos a featured setting in their campaigns" (bold mine)




And thus my prime directive in D and D: never give the dm Ideas. Never give the DM an even break, unless it is his dice rolling fingers.



jkason said:


> See, I read the description and inadvertantly transposed the second and third letters in "slaads." I don't suppose they're actually plant demons, are they? Because I think they should be. And even if they aren't, I will forever more picture them as green, leafy evil.
> 
> Sorry, puns (especially name puns) are my kryptonite.
> 
> jason




Sorry, but I thought that Salads _*were*_ evil, and that GOD's Proof that he wants every one to be happy is the existance of Meat 'n Taters!?


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 29, 2010)

jkason said:


> See, I read the description and inadvertantly transposed the second and third letters in "slaads." I don't suppose they're actually plant demons, are they? Because I think they should be. And even if they aren't, I will forever more picture them as green, leafy evil.
> 
> Sorry, puns (especially name puns) are my kryptonite.
> 
> jason




Yes, well, I suppose that can be arranged too.


-IG


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 30, 2010)

jkason said:


> See, I read the description and inadvertantly transposed the second and third letters in "slaads." I don't suppose they're actually plant demons, are they? Because I think they should be. And even if they aren't, I will forever more picture them as green, leafy evil.
> 
> Sorry, puns (especially name puns) are my kryptonite.
> 
> jason






industrygothica said:


> Yes, well, I suppose that can be arranged too.
> 
> 
> -IG





See? SEE!!@? that is exactly why we never have given you any ideas. You take them and twist them to your warped minds delight! turning them into plots to use against the party!

ArrrrGGGGGhhhhhhh!!


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 30, 2010)

jkason: For what it's worth, I tried to rep you for that post, but it seems that I have to spread the love first before I can rep you again.

"Green, leafy evil" just about made me fall out of my chair.


-IG


----------



## Scotley (Jan 30, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> jkason: For what it's worth, I tried to rep you for that post, but it seems that I have to spread the love first before I can rep you again.
> 
> "Green, leafy evil" just about made me fall out of my chair.
> 
> ...




I got him for you. I'm thinking that the holy water for use against these guys smells suspiciously like oil and vinegar...

Thanks to the winter weather I was without power and internet for a bit, but I'm playing catch up now.


----------



## Shayuri (Jan 30, 2010)

Evil green salad demons are definitely a problem that need addressing.

...addressing, see...because it's like "a dressing." Salads. Aheh.

...

Kill me.


----------



## renau1g (Jan 30, 2010)

I think I'll make a ranger dual-wielding a pair of forks... to toss them ... oh gods it gets worse...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 30, 2010)

I am glad I am at home and no one else is around. I Laughed so loud at these comments. the chees factor is so hight i have to ask only one 1uestion:

Grated Parmasaian or shredded chedder?


----------



## renau1g (Jan 31, 2010)

Well... if it's an Evil Caesar Slaad we're fighting then I s'pose that Parmesan would be the way to go... oh dear it never ends


----------



## industrygothica (Jan 31, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Well... if it's an Evil Caesar Slaad we're fighting then I s'pose that Parmesan would be the way to go... oh dear it never ends




Well, they _say_ it never ends...  but I've heard that if the encounter lasts for more than four hours, they kick you out of the fight.


----------



## Leif (Jan 31, 2010)

IG, I gave him (jkason) xp for the post, in your stead.  (That was before I saw that Scotley had done so, too.  Enjoy, jkason!)


----------



## Scott DeWar (Jan 31, 2010)

And I just gave JKson and xp for GP's


----------



## jkason (Feb 1, 2010)

LOL. Goodness, but it's a puntastic mess in here. Now I'm even more glad this game isn't going away. 

Also, thanks for all the XP. Clearly I need to misread things more often. 

And because I'm slightly out of the loop: what is forum XP, anyway? Is it just a public kudos system or is it more complicated than that (i.e. should I be worried about getting or giving xp?)

jason


----------



## renau1g (Feb 1, 2010)

Just kudos, nothing to it.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Feb 2, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Just kudos, nothing to it.




yup. just kudos. and you have to give out 50 xp just to be able to give to that person again and you can give out no more the 3 xp per day.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Amulet*

I thought about making it a level 11 amulet, but then that'd take up someone's level 11 item slot.

Of course, I guess I could keep it level 6, and just make it a +1 until then, instead of +3.  Thoughts?


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, technically speaking there's only "slots" during character generation. Once we start finding actual items, then it's just a question of how we decide to allocate them. The 3 item formula usually breaks down fairly quickly during play, as some characters get found or crafted items, and the group levels up, making old items obsolete...

Ultimately it's not a big deal to me. I just thought it was a bit weird for her to say something like, "Wow, it's got strong magic" now, and then suddenly...oops, wait, this is fairly weak little trinket, in stark contrast to what she said before.

But I'm not gonna let one piece of random discovered loot become a big issue.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 8, 2010)

*Re: Deities*

Lief,

I think the only thing you will miss out on by not specifying a deity is access to certain Channel Divinity feats.  

That being said, I can see Uulark as a follower of Avandra--especially given his attitude towards luck.  If you chose to go that route, why not roleplay the new religious focus rather than just assume it's always been that way?  It might make for a good opportunity for you to get back in touch with Uulark, and might even offer a few story arcs. 


-IG


----------



## Leif (Feb 8, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Lief Leif,
> 
> I think the only thing you will miss out on by not specifying a deity is access to certain Channel Divinity feats.
> 
> ...



Ok, I can do that.  So if I go that route, I will.


----------



## Friadoc (Feb 17, 2010)

Folks,

I'm sorry that I've not had my act together over here. There ain't much of an excuse for it, either. I've lost something of a zest for Buurt, but it's more of a "me" issue than an issue with you all...

...no, this isn't a break up letter (stupid common subtext  )...

...but, I'll get my act together.

Once again, sorry for dropping the ball.

Robert


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 17, 2010)

Friadoc said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm sorry that I've not had my act together over here. There ain't much of an excuse for it, either. I've lost something of a zest for Buurt, but it's more of a "me" issue than an issue with you all...
> 
> ...




Yes, I was actually quite looking forward to seeing how you adapted Buurt's background to this new setting.  Lots of good story opportunities there with the cultural viewpoints and such.  I'm thinking from somewhere in the northeaster portion of Romeda.. Eaglefair, maybe?  Anyway, take your time.. we'll be still be here.


----------



## renau1g (Feb 17, 2010)

Unless Leif slips on the ice again


----------



## Scott DeWar (Feb 18, 2010)

That's right. that's how he hurt his knee. I am glad you guys down south got the ice then. just wish we got more snow here.

May be I can get some snow on march 14th ...


----------



## renau1g (Feb 18, 2010)

We got about 4-5 inches up here a week-ish ago, but now it's all melting again... good ol' freeze/thaw action we have here that destroys our infrastructure...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Feb 18, 2010)

wow. I thought the great white north (American Siberia) got frozen and stayed that way the whole year long!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 11, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> You all have become so adept at fighting off Chaos Beasts now, this one is basically just fodder for the greater other threat.




Wait a second here, I see what is behind the dark line. What do you mean "greater threat"! Did Scott just waste a crit  that we may need later?!


----------



## Friadoc (Mar 11, 2010)

Any thoughts on this version of Buurt?

Yes, they're a couple of things that'd ned to explained out ICly, but since we all met Buurt In Media Res, and it's only been a short bit of time ICly, too, they're doable, I think.

Let me know.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 11, 2010)

It's funny that you posted Buurt just now--I was just getting on to tell everyone that if you haven't started your 4e builds, now is a good time to start.  We've probably got enough time to wait on the release of PH3, if you'd like to use something out of that book, but I'm going to try to wrap this one up pretty soon.

Buurt looks good to me, but I didn't go over him in great detail.  What, exactly, were you concerned about having to justify IC?


-IG


----------



## Friadoc (Mar 13, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> It's funny that you posted Buurt just now--I was just getting on to tell everyone that if you haven't started your 4e builds, now is a good time to start.  We've probably got enough time to wait on the release of PH3, if you'd like to use something out of that book, but I'm going to try to wrap this one up pretty soon.
> 
> Buurt looks good to me, but I didn't go over him in great detail.  What, exactly, were you concerned about having to justify IC?
> 
> ...




It was the dire wolf mount, actually. It was an interesting aspect to the scout bit, having an unusual mount. That's all. You'll see his kit and build out as you look through him. Sorry for the delay, but I just finished dead week for Winter term and next week is finals.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 13, 2010)

Friadoc said:


> It was the dire wolf mount, actually. It was an interesting aspect to the scout bit, having an unusual mount. That's all. You'll see his kit and build out as you look through him. Sorry for the delay, but I just finished dead week for Winter term and next week is finals.




I guess I missed the mount.  I can't look at it now because I don't have the CB on the laptop... I'll look at it when I get home next week, unless you want to make a pdf out of it.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 13, 2010)

FRiadoc:

Good luck on finals!!! (luck of the irish?)


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 13, 2010)

Here's 4e Talashia. Suggestions welcome. I took the Skill Focus primarily to enhance her rituals, as sorcerors don't have any Int bonus to speak of. I also added the Holy Trinity of rituals (the item creation ones) without buying them,...if that's not okay I'll erase 'em. 

Comments on build...well, I went for a pretty dedicated striker, maximizing damage wherever I could. Tal's defense is a bit crappy; she depends on powers to keep her safe. She can do fairly silly amounts of damage though, especially with the Jagged Dagger's frequent crits. The Dual Implement feat gives her a lot of future flexibility as well, letting her add even more damage with looted magic daggers (or even staves) without losing the crit fury of the Jagged Dagger.

Shazi is an Air Mephit, a flying arcane familiar who adds to Tal's Bluff check, adds to her resistances, gives her the Primordial language for free, and can turn invisible for scouting and spying. Note that the Form of Air power listed doesn't state that it can only be done per encounter or per day. It just says that it turns invisible until the end of your next turn as a minor action. That sounds to me like as long as Tal keeps spending minor actions, Shazi can stay invisible theoretically indefinitely.

Thoughts?

[sblock=Talashia]Talashia, level 11
Human, Sorcerer, Lightning Fury
Spell Source: Storm Magic (+ dex +2 to dmg, resist lightning/thunder 10, expend resist for +4 defenses as interrupt, recover resist via any rest)
Background: Birth - Omen (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 19, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16.

AC: 21 Fort: 21 Reflex: 23 Will: 26
HP: 76 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
History +10, Arcana +15, Intimidate +15, Bluff +17, Insight +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +7, Heal +6, Nature +6, Perception +8, Religion +5, Stealth +9, Streetwise +10, Thievery +9, Athletics +4

FEATS
Human: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Action Surge
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Skill Focus (Arcana)
Level 6: Implement Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 8: Tempest Magic
Level 10: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 11: Arcane Familiar - Air Mephit (Read/Speak Primordial, +2 lightning/thunder resistance), turn invisible 1 turn/at will)

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer at-will 1: Storm Walk
Sorcerer at-will 1: Lightning Strike
Sorcerer encounter 1: Pinning Bolt
Sorcerer daily 1: Howling Tempest
Sorcerer utility 2: Sorcerous Sirocco
Sorcerer encounter 3: Dancing Lightning
Sorcerer daily 5: Slaad's Gambit
Sorcerer utility 6: Swift Escape
Sorcerer encounter 7: Spark Form
Sorcerer daily 9: Howling Hurricane
Sorcerer utility 10: Narrow Escape

Paragon Path Abilities and Powers
*Electric action* - Deal Dex bonus damage to 1, 2 or 3 enemies within 5 sq when you spend action point to take extra action.
*Unstoppable Lightning* - Lightning attacks ignore resistance, and treat immunity as resistance equal to 1/2 creature level.
*Furious Bolts*: Enc attack power

ITEMS
Backpack (empty)
Bedroll
Flint and Steel
Belt Pouch (empty) (2)
Waterskin
Journeybreads (10)
Amulet of Protection +3
Boots of Striding (heroic tier), +1 to speed
Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), +2 perception, darkvision by expending attack powers
Sun Globe (heroic tier), radiate dim or bright light at will
Jagged Dagger +3, crit on 19-20
Shadowdance Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, no OA from ranged or area attacks, gain concealment with daily power
Ritual Book

RITUALS
Disenchant Magic Item, Enchant Magic Item, Brew Potion
[/sblock]


----------



## Leif (Mar 13, 2010)

I hope to get Uulark switched to 4E and leveled up to 11 soon.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 13, 2010)

I comment Shay, I see you took Dual Implement Spellcaster but don't have a second implement so there's no benefit to that feat. Weapon Focus (dagger) might also work +2 damage?


----------



## Leif (Mar 14, 2010)

Weapon focus for a spellcaster?  Surely you jest, renau1g?!  How about Arcane Reserves, that gives a +2 bonus to damage to your At-Will powers for the remainder of the encounter, after all your Encounter powers are expended.  [See Arcane Power, p. 124]


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 14, 2010)

I didn't have enough money to buy another implement. Consider that feat an investment for the future.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 16, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> I didn't have enough money to buy another implement. Consider that feat an investment for the future.




Technically speaking, you do have a second implement in your possession... Talashia is just too goody-two-shoes to use it. 

So I've seen 4e sheets from:

Shaimon Hu'u, with Dyspeer
Talashia Thingol, with the lovable Shazi
Buurt, of House Wolfhart

If there are others, they were before I slept last, as I don't recall at the moment.  

I would like for you all to modify your backgrounds a bit as well, to reflect the new setting of Romeda.  The history of the region is pretty much a blank map, so you've got a lot of freedom.

The exception to that is Haldiron (pronounced HAL-duh-ron), in which there are only minor details.  Haldiron is home to several unerground dwarven clans, all connected by a series of natural and worked tunnels underneath the (as yet un-named) mountains.  While each dwarven clan has their respective king, Haldiron itself has no official ruler.  The Nogginsplitters are the largest of the clans, and the most prominent; if there were a defacto ruler of Haldiron, it'd be King Nogginsplitter... though he'd be quick to tell you otherwise.

I'm going to get the OOC and RG threads up shortly, as it's getting very, very close.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 16, 2010)

Ah yes the staff! I don't have the 4e stats for it. I don't think she'd mind using it as an implement. Lets face it, the utility of staves has changed -vastly- between  editions. Using it as a second implement wouldn't challenge her ethics any, I don't believe...though final decision will have to wait until I have its stats...


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 16, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Ah yes the staff! I don't have the 4e stats for it. I don't think she'd mind using it as an implement. Lets face it, the utility of staves has changed -vastly- between  editions. Using it as a second implement wouldn't challenge her ethics any, I don't believe...though final decision will have to wait until I have its stats...




I've got some notes for it at home.  I'll type them up and send them to you when I get back from New Orleans.

*Edit* How's this?
*Staff of the Walking Dead, Level 9 (4,200 gp)*
*Enhancement:* +2 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls
*Critical:* +1d6 necrotic damage per plus
*Power (Daily):* Free action. Use this power when using a power with the necrotic keyword. After you resolve the power, all enemies within 3 squares of you are weakened (save ends).


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 17, 2010)

Coming Soon...

IG's [D&D 4e] Those Left Behind, Chapter 4: OOC, Character Records


----------



## renau1g (Mar 17, 2010)

IG I'll post a finalized Caerwyn Thingol once the CB is updated in April as the hybrid rules from PHB3 are in that update. I didn't see any changes in the printed rules, but just to make sure.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 17, 2010)

renau1g said:


> IG I'll post a finalized Caerwyn Thingol once the CB is updated in April as the hybrid rules from PHB3 are in that update. I didn't see any changes in the printed rules, but just to make sure.




What if you posted what you've got now, and then updated him if the ruled changed?  There is a very real possibility that we could be starting the next chapter in less than two weeks, though I suppose I could hold off a bit if anyone needs more time.


----------



## Scotley (Mar 17, 2010)

I have a sense of where to go with Rogash, so I should have something for you this weekend.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 17, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Hmmm...there is a dire wolf mount in CB...you might need to bump it up a bit though as it's a level 5 creature, also they're handled differently as you and the mount can't attack in the same turn.
> 
> I'd also suggest looking at the ranger build with the animal companion.
> 
> I was bored at work right now so I put together a proposed build for Caerwyn (using the hybrid rules though). Reason I did it is that he had rages in the initial build and seemed like a fairly important part of the character that I didn't want to lose. The paragon class Gray Guard seems to fit his personality perfectly, "Your tactics don't make you popular with others in your god's service" & "the ends justify the means" - like his initial "concepts of quick and dirty justice" from his background section.




Here's my initial build. I'm back at work next week, I'll finalize then if that works for you.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/5057953-post60.html


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 17, 2010)

*snif* if feels sad to know I am so close to no longer being rlelvent *sob*

as an aside, I am taking over a character of Rena1g's from Sasquach's "against the giants" so I guess we are just trading characters in a way.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 17, 2010)

*high five* Take care of Dori. I never really got into him unfortunately. I made him and then s@s disappeared, then when it got underway the game was very slow and I wasn't added for a while, then the pace was still very slow and I just struggled to really get into him. That combined with my general dislike of 3.x rules after 4e, especially for spellcasters (there's too many options for my little mind to process without the character builder).


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 17, 2010)

4e Caerwyn looks good to me.



Scott DeWar said:


> *snif* if feels sad to know I am so close to no longer being rlelvent *sob*




Through no one's choice but your own, I might add.  Keep in mind that you're always invited back, should you change your mind... it'll just be with a new character. 


-IG


----------



## Leif (Mar 18, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> There is a very real possibility that we could be starting the next chapter in less than two weeks, though I suppose I could hold off a bit if anyone needs more time.






Scotley said:


> I have a sense of where to go with Rogash, so I should have something for you this weekend.



And I, likewise, shall shoot for this weekend to have the new (and improved?) Uulark formulated!


Scott DeWar said:


> *snif* if feels sad to know I am so close to no longer being relevant *sob*
> as an aside, I am taking over a character of Rena1g's from Sasquach's "against the giants" so I guess we are just trading characters in a way.



Awwww, buck up DeWar!  Come on, you know you wanna play 4E with us!  It'll be fun!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 18, 2010)

I wanna play with you all, just not with 4.x ed.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 18, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> I wanna play with you all, just not with 4.x ed.




You should start a game of your own then, and we can all be players.   As a DM, I just can't juggle two rulesets anymore...


-IG


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 18, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> You should start a game of your own then, and we can all be players.   As a DM, I just can't juggle two rulesets anymore...
> 
> 
> -IG




Perhaps sometime in the future. If I did, it would be patfinder rpg.

I am currently trying to obtain/aquire permant full time gainful employment, so my time is quiste limited as i seek employment and try to work temp work and side jobs.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 18, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> I wanna play with you all, just not with 4.x ed.




Skip to 30 seconds in.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siipB-1Zoac]YouTube - The Power Of The Dark Side[/ame]


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 18, 2010)

"I will nevever join you, and you are not my father! Nooooooooo!!"

Edit: Rena1g, shouldn't you be doing tax things instead of looking on youtube?


----------



## renau1g (Mar 18, 2010)

Nope I'm on vacation this week. Ahhh... nothing like relaxing right before you get super busy at work, then taking a vacation in July to recover. 

In July I'll pick up some scotch and toast to you


----------



## Leif (Mar 19, 2010)

(directed generally towards renau1g) -- An accountant on vacation:  a scary prospect, to say the least.  And a Canadian one at that!  Horrors!

Ok, DeWar, I guess your still committed to being ati-4E, and I guess that's worthy of some grudging respect.  Or something.  But, really, you're STILL numbered among the unemployed?  That's really rotten, I was sure you'd ;have found something by now.   Hope the situation improves straightaway!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 19, 2010)

I found some temp work in a factory. Yes it is 40 hours a week and it is 2nd shift which is realy nice to have. But 8.00 per hour is idle speed. I need a job where i can replace a vehicle that won't pass its next inspection, a new place to live and get caught up on back rent.


----------



## Leif (Mar 20, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> I found some temp work in a factory. Yes it is 40 hours a week and it is 2nd shift which is realy nice to have. But 8.00 per hour is idle speed. I need a job where i can replace a vehicle that won't pass its next inspection, a new place to live and get caught up on back rent.



Inspection?  I thought all that was necessary for a car in Missouri to pass inspection was for the rag stuffed into the hole where the gas cap used to be to have at least one clean spot on it.  You can always move to Arkansas -- down here, once you get your car licensed, they never inspect it again.  We stopped the annual inspection routine several years ago.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 20, 2010)

Believe me, I was tempted. I, however need mony to move, and a new vehicle once i get there as the one I have would never pass any inspection. The frame is ganked through with rust in two places on either side of the gas tank.


----------



## Leif (Mar 20, 2010)

Well, DeWar, Scotley used to have a rent house in Jonesboro, and, if he still has it, I'm just SURE he'd make you a good deal on rent!   (That should save a little bit of funding for you...)


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 21, 2010)

Well thanks for the offer, but I think that scotley should be the offerer her. no offens. as for the move, I would rather do so with a different truck as the one i have would not make it. the frame is really that bad.


----------



## Scotley (Mar 21, 2010)

I sold the house a few years ago when maintaining it started to a burden on my parents. I just didn't have the time to zip over and fix things all the time. 

Otherwise you would indeed be welcome sir. I'm a little surprised about your vehicle situation. I thought electricians could fix anything given enough black vinyl tape and a little conduit.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 21, 2010)

Naw, for this, I would need a framing hammer. The main problems with the ganking is that on one side the frame rot goes from the back, up the fender well and all the way to just behind the fron pass. door. the other side is ganked way too close to the gass tank. Needless to say, the tow hitch is a moot item right now.

if it were body work, then some duct tape and spray paint is all i need. if the antenna was still attached i could keep it on with electrical tape.


----------



## Leif (Mar 21, 2010)

Anyway, Scotley, DeWar was right!  I shouldn't have even brought that up.  Sorry.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 21, 2010)

*pats Lief on the back* Its ok man. You are zealous to help people. that is not a character flaw, but a trait. and a rare one at that.


----------



## Scotley (Mar 21, 2010)

Leif said:


> Anyway, Scotley, DeWar was right!  I shouldn't have even brought that up.  Sorry.




No problem at all. I'm always good with lending a helping hand when I can.


----------



## Leif (Mar 21, 2010)

Good!  *whew!*  Leif feels much better now, thanks.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 22, 2010)

Leif said:


> Good!  *whew!*  Leif feels much better now, thanks.




Well, I'll have to take care of that in short order, then...


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 22, 2010)

Just wanted to point out that, IC comments aside, we really do have no chance of beating this encounter if we fight. Four trolls alone would destroy us utterly. Three unknown creatures (the woman) and the half elf (also of unknown potence), and 12 kobolds, AND a chaos beast...we quite literally have zero chance of success. I'll point out that Talashia's down to her last few 2nd level spells, and then she'll be plinking them with magic missiles.

As a player to my fellow players, I implore y'all to listen to reason on this.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 23, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> Just wanted to point out that, IC comments aside, we really do have no chance of beating this encounter if we fight. Four trolls alone would destroy us utterly. Three unknown creatures (the woman) and the half elf (also of unknown potence), and 12 kobolds, AND a chaos beast...we quite literally have zero chance of success. I'll point out that Talashia's down to her last few 2nd level spells, and then she'll be plinking them with magic missiles.
> 
> As a player to my fellow players, I implore y'all to listen to reason on this.




And I've got an animated kitchen sink on reserves.

Heh.. that should go in a sig somewhere... 


Also, FYI: When this encounter happens, either now or later, you should all be aware that it will be our last encounter under the old rules.  Make sure your 4e characters are ready and posted in the new thread.

[sblock=DeWar] I already know the answer to this, but I wouldn't feel right if I let this go on and didn't offer you a spot one last time.  If you want it, it's yours (and we'll still keep renau1g, too!).  I know you don't like 4e and I respect that, but regardless, the offer is there.

That being said, should you decline now but change your mind later, you'll always have a spot in this game.[/sblock]



-IG


----------



## Leif (Mar 23, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Well, I'll have to take care of that in short order, then...
> -IG



Well, Mr. DM, that, as they say, just BODES!! 


Shayuri said:


> Just wanted to point out that, IC comments aside, we really do have no chance of beating this encounter if we fight. Four trolls alone would destroy us utterly. Three unknown creatures (the woman) and the half elf (also of unknown potence), and 12 kobolds, AND a chaos beast...we quite literally have zero chance of success. I'll point out that Talashia's down to her last few 2nd level spells, and then she'll be plinking them with magic missiles.
> 
> As a player to my fellow players, I implore y'all to listen to reason on this.



I'm with you on this one, Shay!  Let's head for the hills while we still can!

IG:  I had hoped to have Uulark converted to 4E before now, but, alas, I have not done so yet.  I'll give it a go soon, I hope!  Oh, and one more thing (again), you've probably told us this already, but standard array for abilities before leveling up to 12?  And it is 12, isn't it?


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 23, 2010)

Leif said:


> Well, Mr. DM, that, as they say, just BODES!!
> 
> I'm with you on this one, Shay!  Let's head for the hills while we still can!
> 
> IG:  I had hoped to have Uulark converted to 4E before now, but, alas, I have not done so yet.  I'll give it a go soon, I hope!  Oh, and one more thing (again), you've probably told us this already, but standard array for abilities before leveling up to 12?  And it is 12, isn't it?




Level 11, standard array or point buy... should all equal out to about the same.


----------



## Leif (Mar 23, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Level 11, standard array or point buy... should all equal out to about the same.



Well, that all depends on how many points you give us to spend, doesn't it? 

Aww, come on, IG!  You really want to give us L12 dontcha?

And while I'm thinking about it let me take a quick poll:  What sort of cleric would the others in the group prefer, a battle cleric or a shield cleric?  (I just don't think I can stomach a devoted cleric.  )


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 23, 2010)

lol...don't push our luck, man.


----------



## Leif (Mar 23, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> lol...don't push our luck, man.



Oh, Ok, Draco Spoilsportus!  But I didn't catch whether you have a preference for the build I use for our cleric?  I think I'm leaning toward a shield cleric.  You gonna jump in there and do his fighting for him, Shay?   (Oh, waitaminnit, wrong game!  You've got the sorceress here, dontcha?)


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh dont worry Shay. i am just playing Caerwyn the way he was built, as a Paladin of freedom to Kord. He will not be doing any thing to jepordize the party.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 23, 2010)

No worries, Scott. I just wanted to be sure we were all on the same page as far as the battle's difficulty. The presence of trolls, when we haven't a significant supply of acid/fire, means we need to fix that problem before coming back. Tal's lightning won't keep them down, and Shai may have Produce Flame, but that doesn't do enough damage to put down a troll. Not to mention we've already blown a lot of spells today.

Leif, I don't know much about cleric builds, so I can't help you there. The only cleric I've seen in action is a 'laser' cleric, and he's pretty awesome. I've no idea what build he is though.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 23, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> Oh dont worry Shay. i am just playing Caerwyn the way he was built, as a Paladin of freedom to Kord. He will not be doing any thing to jepordize the party.




Yeah you be careful with him, I don't want him all dinged up when I take over, he'd better be in mint, or at least, near mint condition 

Re: cleric - personally battle cleric's are pretty weak, unfortunately, as the focus of powers seems to be on ranged clerics, especially in Divine Power. Now you could multi-class as a different class and maybe try and pick up a few powers from that class, but it's pretty hard because you also need your feats for weapons/armor/shield proficiencies. 

I've attached a battle cleric I made for another game, his Paragon Path grants proficiency with Light + heavy shields, which is definitely necessary for a melee cleric. Funny enough his AC is higher than Caerwyn's when I statted him up (because Caerwyn uses a two-handed weapon)


----------



## jkason (Mar 23, 2010)

I think I've been channeling Shai, since it hadn't even occured to me to take our magic resources into account before I had him go whispering. And poor Dyspeer. Such a reliable wolf with such a bumbler of a companion. I think he's a lovable bumbler, mind you, but a bumbler nonetheless.

So, OOC, I'm all for a retreat, assuming Shai hasn't already gotten us in hot water. 

jason


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 23, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Yeah you be careful with him, I don't want him all dinged up when I take over, he'd better be in mint, or at least, near mint condition




Uh, right. sure. never been used in combat. uh huh!


----------



## jkason (Mar 23, 2010)

Had a bit of a scare, since my DDI expired but I couldn't find the paragon multiclass version of Shai that I thought I posted here. Luckily, I seem to have foreseen this possibility even though I didn't remember, as I found a PDF of that version in my mail. 

In any case, Shai / Dyspeer are in the new Character thread. 

The background in that version isn't especially descriptive insofar as Shai's northern barbarian tribe. I was pondering a few things, but figured I could add them as text in the entry instead of on the sheet and it wouldn't impact much.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 23, 2010)

jkason said:


> Had a bit of a scare, since my DDI expired but I couldn't find the paragon multiclass version of Shai that I thought I posted here. Luckily, I seem to have foreseen this possibility even though I didn't remember, as I found a PDF of that version in my mail.
> 
> In any case, Shai / Dyspeer are in the new Character thread.
> 
> The background in that version isn't especially descriptive insofar as Shai's northern barbarian tribe. I was pondering a few things, but figured I could add them as text in the entry instead of on the sheet and it wouldn't impact much.




Sounds good to me.  Thanks.


----------



## Scotley (Mar 27, 2010)

Rogash is maybe 2/3rds finished. I've got work to do on upper level powers and equipment still. I'll have him ready some time this weekend. 

As for Cleric builds, the shield cleric is pretty cool. The last battle cleric I did tried to do ranged and melee and it just didn't work that well. The ranged stuff is the way to go imho.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 27, 2010)

Shayuri,  Add another daily power to that staff: Daily, summon 1 standard undead creature of half the caster's level or lower.


----------



## renau1g (Mar 28, 2010)

1 standard monster right? no level 5 solo


----------



## Leif (Mar 28, 2010)

Scotley said:


> Rogash is maybe 2/3rds finished. I've got work to do on upper level powers and equipment still. I'll have him ready some time this weekend.
> 
> As for Cleric builds, the shield cleric is pretty cool. The last battle cleric I did tried to do ranged and melee and it just didn't work that well. The ranged stuff is the way to go imho.



Hmm, IG was wanting our characters to be generally the same as they are now, just 4E.   Uulark is not much for missile weapons, you know.  The Shield Cleric build sounds good, as does a melee Battle Cleric.  Hmmm, think I'll probably go with the Shield Cleric build.  Should have him up tomorrow, too, IG.  L12, right?


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 28, 2010)

Leif said:


> Hmm, IG was wanting our characters to be generally the same as they are now, just 4E.   Uulark is not much for missile weapons, you know.  The Shield Cleric build sounds good, as does a melee Battle Cleric.  Hmmm, think I'll probably go with the Shield Cleric build.  Should have him up tomorrow, too, IG.  L12, right?




No, level 10.


----------



## Leif (Mar 28, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> No, level 10.



Yeah, L10 for the non-clerics, I got that! 

Well, except for renau1g -- new meat starts at L1 don't they?   (Who luvs ya, Ryan?)


----------



## renau1g (Mar 28, 2010)

Just remember that once the L1 paladin falls in the first round who the monsters will go after next  Mmmmm.....juicy clerics....


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 28, 2010)

Isn't it level 11? I seem to recall it was level 11.

Edit - It is. Here's a post from IG:

 Originally Posted by Leif 
So, is it official, IG, that we're starting at L11? I haven't seen anyone specifically say so except DeWar, and we all know what his opinion is worth, hehe. (quoted from a previous post, included for context)


Yes, level 11. Now there are all kinds of new nasties that I can use. I just have to come up with a story to put them in..


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 28, 2010)

Yes, it is level 11.  I just figured that, since Lief was trying to squeeze an extra level out of me, I'd mess with him a little...


-IG


----------



## renau1g (Mar 28, 2010)

That'll learn him good. Oh wait he's the healer right? I mean Leif should have whatever he wants


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 28, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Yes, it is level 11.  I just figured that, since Lief was trying to squeeze an extra level out of me, I'd mess with him a little...
> 
> 
> -IG






renau1g said:


> That'll learn him good. Oh wait he's the healer right? I mean Leif should have whatever he wants





I say teach hi a real lessen: make him levell 11 ( I just don't want Cappizzio to be harmed!)


----------



## Leif (Mar 28, 2010)

*IG is mean!*

Ok, well, I guess I've got more work to do, because I took Uulark to L10, as instructed.   But here he is so far (still needs equipment mundane and magical, so his defenses are incomplete):

Uulark Simental, Longtooth Shifter, Cleric L10 ( no specific build, worships Ioun)
Alignment:  Good

S 16 +2 (+2 Longtooth Shifter +1L4)
D 10 +0
C 12 +1
I 11 +0
W 20 +5 (+2 Longtooth Shifter +1L4 +1L8)
C 17 +3 (+1L8)

Defenses:
AC:  15+armor+shield=10 +5(1/2 lvl) +0(Int.) +(Armor) +(Shield) 
FORT:  17+shield=10 +5(1/2 lvl) +2(Str.) +(Shield – Feat Power)
REF:  15=10 +5(1/2 lvl) +0(Int.) 
WILL:  23=10+5(1/2 lvl)+2(Cleric bonus)+4(Wis)+2(Feat)

HP: 79 
12+12(Con)+5(L2)+5(L2feat)+5(L3)+5(L4)+5(L5)+5(L6)+5(L7)+5(L8)+5(L9)+5(L10)+5(L2 feat)
Bloodied: 38
Healing Surges per Day: 7+1 = 8
Surge Value: 19


Skills
-Religion [+10=+5(one-half level) +0(Int.) +5(Trained)]
-Heal [+15=+5(one-half level) +5(Wis.) +5(Trained)]
-Insight [+15=+5(one-half level) +5(Wis.) +5(Trained)]
-Dungeoneering [+15=+5(one-half level) +5(Wis.) +5(Trained)]


Feats
-L1- Ioun’s Poise – Encounter, Divine, Minor Action, Ranged 5, target: me or one ally, effect: target gains +5 Will defense until the start of my next turn
-L2-Toughness – Gain 5 extra hit points per tier
-L4-Skill Training (Dungeoneering)
-L6-Shield Proficiency (Light)
-L8-Shield Mastery - + shield bonus to Fort when wielding a shield if proficient w/ shld
-L10-Iron Will - +2 Will Defense

Powers, Shifter Racial Feature
-Longtooth Shifting – Minor Action, Encounter, Healing, Personal (I must be bloodied), Until the end of the encounter, I gain +2 bonus to damage rolls and while I am bloodied I gain Regeneraton2.

Powers, Class Features
-Divine Fortune – Free Action, Encounter, Personal, I gain +1 to next attack or saving throw before ENT.
-Turn Undead – Implement, Encounter, Std. Action, Wis vs. Will, Close Burst2, Hit: 1d10+5(Wis mod.) damage And push target 3+3(Charisma mod.) squares + target immobilized until the end of my next turn. Miss: half-damage and target not pushed or immobilized.
-Ritual Caster – Can learn and master rituals of my level or lower.
-Healing Word – Minor Action, Encounter (twice), Close Burst5, Target: me or one ally, Target can spend a healing surge and regain an extra 1d6 hp.

Powers, At-Will
-1Lance of Faith – Divine, Implement, Radiant, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Reflex, Ranged5, Target: one creature – Hit: 1d8+5(Wis. mod.) and one ally I can see gains +2 power bonus to his next attack against target. 
-1Sacred Flame – Divine, Implement, Radiant, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Reflex, Ranged5, Target: one creature - Hit: 1d6+5(Wis. mod.) damage, and one ally I can see chooses either to gain temporary hp = 3+1/2 my level or to make a saving throw.

Powers, Encounter
-1Cause Fear – Divine, Feat, Implement, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Will, Ranged10, Target: one creature – Hit: target moves its speed + 3(Cha. Mod.) squares away from me, avoiding unsafe squares and difficult terrain if it can.  This provokes attacks of opportunity.
-3Command – Charm, Divine, Implement, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Will Ranged10, Target: One creature – Hit: target dazed until the end of my next turn, and I choose whether to a) knock target prone, or b) slide target 3+3(Cha. Mod.) squares.
-7Break the Spirit – Charm, Divine, Implement, Radiant, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Will, Ranged10, Target one creature – Hit: 2d8+5(Wis. mod.) damage, and target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to my Cha. mod. (+3) until the end of my next turn.

Powers, Daily
-1Cascade of Light – Divine, Implement, Radiant, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Will, Ranged10, Target: One creature – Hit: 3d8+5(Wis. mod.) radiant damage and target gains vulnerability5 to all my attacks. Miss: Half damage and target gains no vulnerability.
-5Spiritual Weapon [spear] – Conjuration, Divine, Implement, Std. Action, Wis. vs. AC, Ranged10, Target: one creature – Hit: 1d10+5(Wis. mod.), Sustain: minor [I can move the weapon up to 10 squares as a move action, the weapon lasts until the end of my next turn, when sustained, my allies gain combat advantage against the target and continue to do so as long as it is sustained by me.]
-9Flame Strike – Divine, Fire, Implement, Std. Action, Wis. vs. Reflex, Area Burst within 10 squares, Hit: 2d10+5(Wis. mod.) damage and ongoing 5+5(Wis. mod.) damage (save ends)

Powers, Utility
-2Shield of Faith – Daily, Divine, Std. Action, Close Burst5, Target: Me and each ally in burst – Targets gain +2 power bonus to AC until the end of the encounter.
-6Cure Serious Wounds – Daily, Divine, Healing, Std. Action, Target:  one creature – Target regains hit points as if it had spent 2 healing surges.
-10Shielding Word – Encounter, Divine, Immediate Interrupt, Ranged5 (Trigger: An ally in range is hit by an attack)  Effect:  The ally gains a +4 Power bonus to AC until the end of my next turn.


----------



## Friadoc (Apr 2, 2010)

Hey, Folks,

I'll be out of town from April 2nd through April 4th.

I'll try to check for anything important, but fair warning...I'm visiting a special lady, thus...busy. 

Laters,

Robert


----------



## Scotley (Apr 4, 2010)

*Rogash*

Okay, at long last I have a nearly complete 11 level 4e version of Rogash. I think I still need a couple of magic items. I'm not sure I'm doing that right.


----------



## renau1g (Apr 5, 2010)

Scotley - magic items are a level 12 item, a level 11 item, a level 10 item and gold equal to the value of a level 10 item (5,000 gold)


----------



## Scotley (Apr 5, 2010)

Cool, so I'm on the right track. I guess I didn't understand because character builder is only showing 100 gp. Just need a few more toys.


----------



## renau1g (Apr 5, 2010)

There should be an option in the CB when you click on the 100 gold that says something like level appropriate or something (don't have it open and am heading to bed). If you click on it, it should correct your gp amount.


----------



## Scotley (Apr 5, 2010)

renau1g said:


> There should be an option in the CB when you click on the 100 gold that says something like level appropriate or something (don't have it open and am heading to bed). If you click on it, it should correct your gp amount.




Okay, I'll look for that. My experience with CB is very limited. I'll play around some more.


----------



## Leif (Apr 13, 2010)

Ok, I'm back at long last.  Will try to get Uulark to L11 asap.  Thanks, renau1g for the magic item and gp info!  (Too much trouble to look it up for myself!  )


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 15, 2010)

Shayuri,

We're going to change the staff's summoning power a bit.  We'll just call it "Summon Undead".  As a daily power, you can use it to summon 1 standard zombie using the summoning rules on page 221 of PH2.  Use your primary ability modifier to determine attack bonuses rather than the standard zombie modifiers.

Please tell me that makes sense.


-IG


----------



## Shayuri (Apr 15, 2010)

I think so...though it'll make the summon pretty fragile at these levels, won't it? Or do standard zombies scale with level?


----------



## Leif (Apr 15, 2010)

Uulark update:  for his Paragon Path, I think I'm tending to favor Divine Oracle.  Comments?  Complaints?  Moans?  Bee-atches?  Gripes?


----------



## renau1g (Apr 15, 2010)

Divine Oracle is a very useful PP

Prophecy of Doom is a fantastic power - grant the next attack against the target to be an automatic critical and you being able to roll twice for init is fun.


----------



## Leif (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks, Ryan.  That helps, getting the approval of the most accomplished 4E DM/Player that I know.   BTW, what DID I do last summer, eh, Mr. Evil DM?


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 15, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> I think so...though it'll make the summon pretty fragile at these levels, won't it? Or do standard zombies scale with level?




I wouldn't think so.  Summoned creatures use the summoner's defenses, and have hit points equal to the summoner's bloodied value, so it'll be no easier to hit than you are, and can take a bit of damage to boot.  Since the zombie will be using your attack bonus as well (CHA, I believe), it should have a good shot at hitting with it's typical grab-and-smash attacks.

Unless I'm just not seeing something, which is a good possibility.


-IG


----------



## renau1g (Apr 15, 2010)

Leif said:


> BTW, what DID I do last summer, eh, Mr. Evil DM?




If I posted it here, I'm sure Morrus' grandma would be offended and I'd get in trouble


----------



## jkason (Apr 16, 2010)

Found the post:

scroll list

I believe we may have used one of the restorations when we were split up, but other than that I think we have everything else. I recall debating selling some of them, but because most of them had at least one spell we thought might come in handy, I think we kept them all. And wouldn't you know it? At least three fire spells. 

In case the link doesn't work, copying from the post to here:



> [sblock=Potions]
> aid (potion) (300gp)
> barkskin +4 (potion) (900gp)
> bear's endurance (potion) (300gp)
> ...


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 16, 2010)

Damn, I sure was nice...


----------



## renau1g (Apr 16, 2010)

Too bad there's no scrolls in 4e so make sure you guys go nuts and use'em


----------



## Scotley (Apr 16, 2010)

I concur we should go all out with potions and scrolls for this presumably last 3.5 fight. I'm eager to try out Rogash 4.0.


----------



## Leif (Apr 16, 2010)

Likewise, Uulark 4E is champing at the bit!  (Guess I should maybe finish him?)


----------



## jkason (Apr 17, 2010)

talk of and subsequent attempts to board up start here: link. 

See, I figured you just forgot (I only remembered because I remembered being so creeped out by the sight), but didn't want to assume, since that's hardly safe, is it?


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks Jason.  Your research is top notch.

I think it's safe to say that, while you did barricade the opening, you didn't brick-and-mortar it; there's likely to be gaps here and there, some large enough to let in an underground breeze. It's not like a gust of wind or anything anyway, but more just a shifting of air.  Or something...


-IG


----------



## jkason (Apr 22, 2010)

Okay, I finally sat down and wrote out info on Shai's tribe in the new 4e setting, which I think fits well with how / why they got rid of him. Lemme know if it jibes for you and I'll add it to his Character post:

The Northern Barbarian Wastes are known for their harsh climates and harsher living. The tribes survive on weeding the weak from the strong. Ritual combat chooses each tribe's leaders, and annual challenges between the tribes establish the region's power structure. It's a tradition spanning back as far as they remember, and assuring that only the hardiest stock leads and produces the next generation. 

At least, that's the story.

Certainly the power structure of the region is established by strength, but the Tchant'cos Mer, ruling tribe for generations, uses a strength for which their brethren have yet to find a counter: commerce. 

Once they were no more than a nomadic scouting people scoffed at for not having the power to conquer and hold their own land. But while they couldn't stalk down a bear with only a hunting knife, they _were_ especially good at laying traps. And eventually they laid those traps along the only trails out of the northern peninsula and into the more resource-rich southern lands.

Now only Tchant'cos Mer tribesman can safely traverse the trade routes south, and with their increased power and influence, soon all trade routes in the northern peninsula fell under their control, as well. It's become impossible for the brute tribes who previously lead to survive without the help of their 'lesser' kin. 

So the ritual combat and annual challenges continue, and there's even an uncertainty to where many tribes will fall in the hierarchy. But the Tchan'cos Mer champion is always from the family with the greatest trade influence in his own tribe, and no one in the other tribes dares topple a Tchan'cos Mer champion.


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 22, 2010)

jkason said:


> Okay, I finally sat down and wrote out info on Shai's tribe in the new 4e setting, which I think fits well with how / why they got rid of him. Lemme know if it jibes for you and I'll add it to his Character post:
> 
> The Northern Barbarian Wastes are known for their harsh climates and harsher living. The tribes survive on weeding the weak from the strong. Ritual combat chooses each tribe's leaders, and annual challenges between the tribes establish the region's power structure. It's a tradition spanning back as far as they remember, and assuring that only the hardiest stock leads and produces the next generation.
> 
> ...




Beautiful.  A barbarian tribe that is essentially holding all the others hostage within their own lands.  I absolutely love it.  Now I just have to figure out how to pronounce it.


----------



## jkason (Apr 23, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> Beautiful.  A barbarian tribe that is essentially holding all the others hostage within their own lands.  I absolutely love it.  Now I just have to figure out how to pronounce it.




lol. Glad ya like it, and sorry 'bout the name. Pretty much all of my gaming names are usually either puns or modified anagrams, the latter often resulting in ridiculous phonemes. The tribe's name was what I got by mutilating "Merchant Stock." It can certainly turn into something with fewer silent 't's in it with no problem.


----------



## Leif (Apr 24, 2010)

'Merchant Stock' for a barbarian tribe.  I love it!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Apr 24, 2010)

Now that you said what it is, I now see it quite clearly!


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 25, 2010)

I might be out of action for a bit. Original post


----------



## Friadoc (Apr 25, 2010)

It's all good, IG, I know how it is. Talk about the oddity of timing, too. I'm more available, after my own issues.

Anyhow, be safe and remember the important things come first.


----------



## jkason (Apr 26, 2010)

D'oh! Hope things work out well, IG.


----------



## jkason (Apr 28, 2010)

If this is too much meta-gaming, feel free to quash me, but wanted to verify which of our divines had which scrolls.

Since Shai was sort of tunnel-visiony on fire spells, I'd say it's fair to assume he'd have claimed the wall of fire and produce flame scrolls (the spells are druid only, anyway, so Uulark couldn't cast them). I'd suggest the Summon Nature's Ally IV (hello, fire elemental) was his, as well.

By the same token, Dismissal and the protection from chaos / evil stuff (two circles of and a regular protection) are cleric only.

Okay, my OCD kicked in again and I went digging. Uulark was declared keeper of the scrolls here (right around there we can verify that he used up one of the restorations, too, leaving one). Move up the thread for other discussion leading up to it.

Since I don't want to backtrack in the middle of battle, figured we should verify the divvy now.


----------



## Leif (Apr 28, 2010)

jkason said:


> If this is too much meta-gaming, feel free to quash me, but wanted to verify which of our divines had which scrolls.
> 
> Since Shai was sort of tunnel-visiony on fire spells, I'd say it's fair to assume he'd have claimed the wall of fire and produce flame scrolls (the spells are druid only, anyway, so Uulark couldn't cast them). I'd suggest the Summon Nature's Ally IV (hello, fire elemental) was his, as well.
> 
> ...



"Quash," or SQUASH?   I would not presume to contradict the results of your intensive thread study and scroll inventory.  If IG also consents, I am fully prepared to accept your results as gospel.  We should go ahead and split the scrolls between us though, shouldn't we?


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 28, 2010)

Just let me know when you're ready to move on.


----------



## Leif (Apr 28, 2010)

Just to confirm, I should add to Uulark's sheet

1 scroll of _Dismissal_
2 scrolls of _Circle of Protection from __?___
1 scroll of _Protection from __?___

(feel free to fill in the blanks.)


----------



## Scott DeWar (Apr 28, 2010)

If I do not post immediately, I will post soon thereof, as I am still looking for some sort of permanant work.


----------



## jkason (Apr 28, 2010)

Shai wants these three scrolls:

[sblock=scroll breakdown]divine scroll containing:
1. dispel chaos
2. summon nature's ally IV
3. sleet storm
4. soften earth and stone
divine scroll containing:
1. blade barrier
2. animate objects
3. earthquake
4. undeath to death
5. wall of fire
6. changestaff
divine scroll containing:
1. contagion
2. obscuring mist
3. produce flame[/sblock]

Which leaves Uulark with these if that's okay:

[sblock=Copy and Paste for ease of update]
divine scroll containing:
1. remove curse
2. dismissal
3. wind wall
4. water walk
divine scroll containing:
1. darkness
divine scroll containing:
1. curse water
2. consecrate
divine scroll containing:
1. dominate animal
2. magic circle against chaos
3. restoration
4. wind wall
divine scroll containing:
1. create food and water
2. restoration
3. magic circle against evil[/sblock]

Uulark had to use a restoration previously, so I just randomly removed it from one of the two scrolls that had it. Feel free to swap those if it'll matter. Both characters have scrolls with a few spells they can't actually cast, but I think this divide puts the more useful spells in the hands of the one who can cast them.

Also, if it's okay to talk  strategy here (since I'm horrible at it and probably am thinking about this all wrong), both Shai and Talashia now have the means to summon a medium fire elemental each (nature's ally iv and summon monster v on their respective scrolls), and since summons take longer in general, might be worth it to do that first, siccing 'em on the trolls and going from there.


----------



## Leif (Apr 29, 2010)

That's great!  Uulark thanks Shai.


----------



## Shayuri (Apr 29, 2010)

Opening with fire elementals is a bad idea, I think.

Medium fire elementals are very very weak for our level. 26 hit points, and AC of 16.

The trolls will suffer a little damage, but should be able to one-shot them with claw/claw/rend.

Better to wait until the trolls are unconscious from nonlethal damage. Then summon the elementals to Coup de Grace them with impunity.


----------



## Leif (Apr 29, 2010)

Very good point, Shay!


----------



## jkason (Apr 29, 2010)

Alrighty, then. Produce Flame it is. I figure the Wall of Fire should wait until we get in and see how many more Trolls there are (and if they could be circled by the wall). Well, unless we want to start right off using that Earthquake to bring the roof down on them, though that seems like it might not look so good, what with a town being the ceiling and all...


----------



## Scott DeWar (Apr 29, 2010)

jkason said:


> Well, unless we want to start right off using that Earthquake to bring the roof down on them, though that seems like it might not look so good, what with a town being the ceiling and all...




picky picky picky
detaiils details details


----------



## renau1g (Apr 29, 2010)

well....they won't really complain too much, although I guess they'll also be under a few hundred tons of stone


----------



## industrygothica (May 7, 2010)

I only have sheets from Talashia and Shai.  This will probably wrap up quicker* than you think, so I need you guys to get your characters in order.

TLB Ch. 4 Character Records

[sblock=*]I know... use of the word "quick" in this game is more than a bit out of place, but...[/sblock]


----------



## Scotley (May 7, 2010)

industrygothica said:


> I only have sheets from Talashia and Shai.  This will probably wrap up quicker* than you think, so I need you guys to get your characters in order.
> 
> TLB Ch. 4 Character Records
> 
> [sblock=*]I know... use of the word "quick" in this game is more than a bit out of place, but...[/sblock]




Oops, thought I gave you one complete except for a couple of magic items. I'll check on it and get it posted by Monday.


----------



## renau1g (May 22, 2010)

IG - do you have a link for any details on the setting? I'm sorry if you've posted it elsewhere. I wasn't able to locate it. This weekend is our holiday weekend up here, so I'd love to get to the backstory.

Thanks!


----------



## Scotley (May 22, 2010)

Initially, we were playing in Greyhawk. Irongate specifically, but I vaguely remember IG saying he was going to do more of a homebrew.


----------



## Leif (May 22, 2010)

I guess I could stand to bone up on the back story a bit, too,  so I second Ryan's request.


----------



## industrygothica (May 23, 2010)

renau1g said:


> IG - do you have a link for any details on the setting? I'm sorry if you've posted it elsewhere. I wasn't able to locate it. This weekend is our holiday weekend up here, so I'd love to get to the backstory.
> 
> Thanks!




http://www.enworld.org/forum/talking-talk/267290-igs-those-left-behind-ooc-2-a-8.html#post5063029


----------



## Scotley (Aug 9, 2010)

I will be out of town and most likely not posting until at least Friday night. Please NPC my character as needed.


----------



## Friadoc (Oct 8, 2010)

Sorry about that, I'll get my post in the morning.


----------

