# digital insider: Monk in PH3, playtest in May



## ppaladin123 (Feb 11, 2009)

Digital Insider: Where We Are

Oh and also they decided to discontinue the digital insider column...

But Monk!


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 11, 2009)

And assassins and familiars!


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## Foundry of Decay (Feb 11, 2009)

One of my players will be beside himself with glee when the monk is finally released.  He has a couple characters that are waiting in the wings for the Monk class (and even a Samurai class, if that will see the light of day).  So this is indeed good news.


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## yesnomu (Feb 11, 2009)

Loved the gladiator article, so this Assassin one is right up my alley. Very excited for March, all things considered!

Familiars are sweet, I'm interested to see what they'll do mechanically.

And the Monk! Let's see if WotC can do better with the old boy this time around.


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## Jack99 (Feb 11, 2009)

*looks into the crystal ball*

I foresee 3 months of speculation on the monk's role and power source.


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## caudor (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh no, I'm twitching again.  Looking at March and beyond, I can't help but get excited.  

OK, I'll guess now:  
Monk --- 
Power source: Ki  
Role:  Controller

Something tells me that Ninja will be the striker.


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## jephlewis (Feb 11, 2009)

I liked 3.x monks, and i'll probably like 4E monks. This is great news!


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 11, 2009)

I believe the Monk as Striker has been confirmed.

Ki seems like a very reasonable assumption as to source.


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## Arivendel (Feb 11, 2009)

Power source has to be Ki, interestingly enough if this falls through i suppose the pattern of PHB 1-2 will Hold for 3-4 so we can expect Psionic/Shadow/Ki Sources in PHB3 which would then be finished in PHB 4 together with Elemental.

All in all awesome all around. I cant wait for May.


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## Lojaan (Feb 11, 2009)

i really hope they do with monk what they did with druid - basically take the class and turn it into a power source. Hence we have leader druids (shaman), controller druids (druid), and defender druids (warden).

If 'ki', as a power source, is treated as 'monk', then we can look forward to the joy of having potentially controller, striker, defender and leader monks. Name a fighting style for each role and BAM - all my Christmases will have come at once.


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## The_Fan (Feb 11, 2009)

I guess this confirms Ki for PHB3. Shadow has certainly gotten enough previews via Paragon Paths and EDs for it be a likely contender. And Psionics...well, psionics has enough fans that if it isn't in by PHB3, there will be blood. Oh well, elemental can wait 'till PHB4.


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## Draksila (Feb 11, 2009)

Seeing as I can't imagine Ki being an important power source for it, I'm taking this news to discredit the idea that 2010 might see a reemergence of the Dark Sun setting.


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## Charwoman Gene (Feb 11, 2009)

Draksila said:


> Seeing as I can't imagine Ki being an important power source for it, I'm taking this news to discredit the idea that 2010 might see a reemergence of the Dark Sun setting.




Yes, because primal is so uber critical for eberron.

as long as Psionics is not said to be waiting for PH4, DS is still as likely as it was before.


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## DonAdam (Feb 11, 2009)

I am excited that the monk is coming out a year before it comes out.

Boot to the head.


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## thecasualoblivion (Feb 11, 2009)

Ki and Psionics for PHB 3 then, since there's no way they're delaying Psionics further than that. Curious to see if there's a 3rd power source for it, of which Shadow would be my bet.


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## balard (Feb 11, 2009)

They HAVE to put psionics in PHB3. And Necro, Illusionists and Monks. Psi, Ki, Shadow.

Primal is very important for Eberron and its many druidic orders. The most powerful npc is a druid! And so is psi. Please! Monk is great, but we want psi in 2010!


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## Rechan (Feb 11, 2009)

WotC is really on the ball here, as far as scheduling. As soon as PHb2 is out, wtih brand new classes, they're all ready getting us whipped up for PHB3. The rules are at least developed to the point they can present a polished playtest article.  

If anything, it shows they're looking ahead.

I feel that my DDI subscription pays for itself three times over.


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## Rechan (Feb 11, 2009)

Draksila said:


> Seeing as I can't imagine Ki being an important power source for it, I'm taking this news to discredit the idea that 2010 might see a reemergence of the Dark Sun setting.



Aside from the name of the Oriental Adventures which slips my mind, I can't think of any setting where _Ki_ is rather integral. So I don't think that the Monk is really casting doubt.


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## chaotix42 (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm overloaded on anticipation. It's great to hear about assassins & monks, but I want that damn PHB2!


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## Starsunder (Feb 11, 2009)

Rechan said:


> WotC is really on the ball here, as far as scheduling. As soon as PHb2 is out, wtih brand new classes, they're all ready getting us whipped up for PHB3. The rules are at least developed to the point they can present a polished playtest article.
> 
> If anything, it shows they're looking ahead.




I've been extremely impressed lately with the quality and quantity of content. 

Bravo Wizards.


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## Kobold Avenger (Feb 11, 2009)

I think it's very likely that psionics will be in PHB3 as they mentioned they did develop some of those classes for PHB2, but decided to hold them off so they could get the rest of the Arcane, Divine and Primal classes in.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm going against the grain on a few things here.

Monk = Martial Striker.

Two, I'm getting... annoyed at the amount of preview/playtest material we're getting. It's not bad by any means but it's not why I subscribe. In Dragon, I want more magic items, more monsters, more rituals, more locations. I want more stuff like the Bane article. I want more adventures in Dungeon to update old classics. I want to see Dragon bring out some more monster articles like old school Creature Collection.

As opposed to having me playtest or preview some material I'm probably going to buy anyway.

I mean, has anyone playtested one of these classes and decided on that playtest that they WEREN'T going to buy?


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## davethegame (Feb 11, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Monk = Martial Striker.




That was my guess too, and I was told that I was at least 50% wrong.  It's almost gotta be Ki.



> Two, I'm getting... annoyed at the amount of preview/playtest material we're getting. It's not bad by any means but it's not why I subscribe. In Dragon, I want more magic items, more monsters, more rituals, more locations. I want more stuff like the Bane article. I want more adventures in Dungeon to update old classics. I want to see Dragon bring out some more monster articles like old school Creature Collection.




I actually get the feeling the people who run Dragon/Dungeon want that too, but they're not getting the kinds of submissions they want (or don't have time to review the submissions) and thus are using preview material as filler, to an extent. 

But when talking about Dragon mag at NYCC, they called out the Deities and Demigods series as one specifically that they'd love to have more submitted to them, and also the other stuff you're talking about.


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## Greg K (Feb 11, 2009)

I would want several versions of the monk- one that is closer to the OA Shaman and one that is a divine variant of the OA shaman  without having to multiclass.


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## Shroomy (Feb 11, 2009)

davethegame said:


> That was my guess too, and I was told that I was at least 50% wrong.  It's almost gotta be Ki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The thing is that they only released extensive preview materials that seemed to shorten _Dragon_ in December and January, which were months when multiple holidays fell on release days (it also coincided with the WotC winter break).  Even then, _Dragon_ was only "missing" one article and if I remember correctly, _Dungeon_ had a bump in page count.

Though Chris Youngs promised it in one of his recent editorials, he really needs to get the submission guidelines updated.  I mean, how can we submit articles for "Deities & Demigods" if we didn't know it was a series until this month?


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## Shroomy (Feb 11, 2009)

BTW, an assassin meta-class and a monk playtest = the awesome.  I guess I'm also looking forward to new familiars, but I have to wait until April to see how the system works anyways, so its hard to gather up much enthusiasm for a bunch of new critters (though it does seem to imply that they'll be somewhat differentiated, which is interesting).


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## chaotix42 (Feb 11, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Two, I'm getting... annoyed at the amount of preview/playtest material we're getting. It's not bad by any means but it's not why I subscribe. In Dragon, I want more magic items, more monsters, more rituals, more locations. I want more stuff like the Bane article. I want more adventures in Dungeon to update old classics. I want to see Dragon bring out some more monster articles like old school Creature Collection.




Well, in Dragon we pretty much only get preview material in the Ampersand article. The other previews (sorcerer, invoker, etc.) weren't part of Dragon as far as I can tell, just nice freebies for subscribers. That would put the last full article devoted to preview material at 4 months old (barbarian in #368).


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## morgul97 (Feb 11, 2009)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I think it's very likely that psionics will be in PHB3 as they mentioned they did develop some of those classes for PHB2, but decided to hold them off so they could get the rest of the Arcane, Divine and Primal classes in.




Makes sense to do psionics next spring if they plan to do Dark Sun in the summer / early fall.  That would be my guess for the next campaign setting release and this schedule makes a lot of sense.

I'd like to see an Oriental Adventures setting.  Not sure if WotC would see that as a whole setting, just one suplement book, or just simply not worth the effort.  I would think their would be a big market for that.  Would want to do it after the Ki stuff is out there though.


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## Deset Gled (Feb 11, 2009)

Bringing the monk back makes me extremely happy.  Quite probably, happy enough to start playing 4e.


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## Hellzon (Feb 11, 2009)

Arivendel said:


> Power source has to be Ki, interestingly enough if this falls through i suppose the pattern of PHB 1-2 will Hold for 3-4 so we can expect Psionic/Shadow/Ki Sources in PHB3 which would then be finished in PHB 4 together with Elemental.




I'm not so sure. They had to have Martial, Divine and Arcane in PHB1 because the four classics (Fighting-Man, Thief, Priest and Magic-User) belong to those sources. Then the PHB2 gets the same layout because it has to fill out two half-sources.

There's no reason we won't get two sources with four classes each in future PHB:s.


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## TerraDave (Feb 11, 2009)

Randy B is gone, digital insider is now gone, and the visualizer and virtual tabletop are also gone?


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## mudbunny (Feb 11, 2009)

TerraDave said:


> Randy B is gone, digital insider is now gone, and the visualizer and virtual tabletop are also gone?




The rest of the Digital Tools (Dungeon builder, Character Visualizer, Game table) have not been cancelled. There has been no announcement of it.

WotC has not announced what tool they will be working on next. What they are doing is taking the time to look at where the various tools are in their development cycle, decide which one should go out next, and work on improving the tools that are already out.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Feb 11, 2009)

Assassins, familiars and monks! 

And with the PHB containing half-orcs and gnomes... wow, I almost have enough rules from 3 or 4 books to replicate what I had in my 1e and 3e PHBs!


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## garyh (Feb 11, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Assassins, familiars and monks!
> 
> And with the PHB containing half-orcs and gnomes... wow, I almost have enough rules from 3 or 4 books to replicate what I had in my 1e and 3e PHBs!




Plus, you'll have warlords, warlocks, dragonborn, eladrin, tieflings, shifters, goliaths, wardens, avengers, invokers, shamans, devas, and whatever else is in PHB3!  Pretty cool, huh?


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 11, 2009)

garyh said:


> Plus, you'll have warlords, warlocks, dragonborn, eladrin, tieflings, shifters, goliaths, wardens, avengers, invokers, shamans, devas, and whatever else is in PHB3!  Pretty cool, huh?




I was thinking similiar thoughts. Once core != current core.


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## garyh (Feb 11, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> I was thinking similiar thoughts. Once core != current core.




Indeed.  And assuming PHB3 is 5 races and 8 classes, like PHB2, if someone buys PHB1-2-3, and only insists upon only using the eight 3.5 PHB classes and eleven 3.5 PHB classes, instead of all 18 races and 24 classes they've paid for, well, that's their own problem.


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## Gunpowder (Feb 11, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> *looks into the crystal ball*
> 
> I foresee 3 months of speculation on the monk's role and power source.




Role: Punches things in the face. 
Power Source: Punches from the Punch Dimension

/end bad humor


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## mhacdebhandia (Feb 11, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> I'm going against the grain on a few things here.
> 
> Monk = Martial Striker.



It can't be a martial class. Look at the box on page 54 of the _Player's Handbook_:

*Other Power Sources:* Additional power sources and techniques provide characters of different classes with powers and abilities. These will appear in future _Player’s Handbook_ volumes. For example, barbarians and druids draw on the primal forces of nature, monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki), and psions call upon the mind to generate psionic powers. Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.​So, you know, we can argue about the monk's role - though I think striker is likely.


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## garyh (Feb 11, 2009)

Gunpowder said:


> Role: Punches things in the face.
> Power Source: Punches from the Punch Dimension
> 
> /end bad humor




The Punch Dimension is right next door to the Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick Demi-Plane.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

Gunpowder said:


> Role: Punches things in the face.
> Power Source: Punches from the Punch Dimension
> 
> /end bad humor





My god! It's the Chuck Norris Power Source!


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

mhacdebhandia said:


> It can't be a martial class. Look at the box on page 54 of the _Player's Handbook_:
> 
> *Other Power Sources:* Additional power sources and techniques provide characters of different classes with powers and abilities. These will appear in future _Player’s Handbook_ volumes. For example, barbarians and druids draw on the primal forces of nature, monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki), and psions call upon the mind to generate psionic powers. Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.​So, you know, we can argue about the monk's role - though I think striker is likely.




Well, perhaps we'll see two unarmed specialist? Martial Artist For Martial Striker and Monk for the whole running up walls and falling 50' without taking damage?


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## catsclaw227 (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> My god! It's the Chuck Norris Power Source!



Only Rangers have access to that power source. (And only if they are from Texas).


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## Cadfan (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Well, perhaps we'll see two unarmed specialist? Martial Artist For Martial Striker and Monk for the whole running up walls and falling 50' without taking damage?



More likely we'll see two builds, one with more special effects than the other.  

Totally non magical melee guys who punch dragons to death without supernatural abilities have been a long sought after class by a few, but in spite of that they never seem to materialize.


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

If I recall correctly, WotC said they would not be putting out any more Martial classes for a long while.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> If I recall correctly, WotC said they would not be putting out any more Martial classes for a long while.




Well, one would hope 2010 qualifies then.


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Well, one would hope 2010 qualifies then.



Why hope? I don't see the point in putting a lot of emotional stock in "What powersource which class is".

Besides. By 2010, WotC will only have put out 1/4th of the power sources. I don't think they're going to double-back and go put out _more_ of what they've all ready put out, instead of pushing the _new_ stuff. 

I honestly can't wait for May, because I'm really tired of seeing every single power source and role attributed to the monk. Finally getting that put to bed will be _nice_.


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## mudbunny (Feb 12, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Only Rangers have access to that power source. (And only if they are from Texas).




Are they required to shill an exercise machine on TV shows they produce and star in??


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I honestly can't wait for May, because I'm really tired of seeing every single power source and role attributed to the monk. Finally getting that put to bed will be _nice_.



Then onto the next class 

I would laugh if at the end of the Monk playtest they had a little blurb. Like, _"oh and we have *class name* coming out next it may or may not be *power source* and if it is it may or may not be *role*"_

Though that may be to evil for them to pull on us.


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Then onto the next class



It wouldn't be as bad. People have been obsessing over the Monk since before the PHB I came out.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> It wouldn't be as bad. People have been obsessing over the Monk since before the PHB I came out.




Oh noes! Peoples is excited about a product featuring a class that many people feel has never been done right in the first place! A class many people wondered WFT it was doing in AD&D in the first place! A class already done up twice for 4e! Noes! Noes!

THE SKY IS FALLING!


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> THE SKY IS FALLING!



I'm sure am glad that you chose the mature option of calmly disagreeing with me since I do not share your viewpoint.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I'm sure am glad that you chose the mature option of calmly disagreeing with me since I do not share your viewpoint.




I'm just worried about your mental health. All this obsession over other people's obsession can't be healthy. You should avoid all threads with the monk in them from now on. You'll probably be happier if you do. You seem vehemently opposed to other people commenting on the old monk to a point I thought entertaining. My apologies if I've offended.


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> I'm just worried about your mental health.



I'm fine.

I am certain that the monk will be a ki striker. It's so obvious; any other speculation is ludicrous. It's wishful thinking that's _wrong_. And the constant, enthusiastic _wrong_ness gets on my nerves.

I am so certain that the monk will be a ki striker, I'll put $200 on it.

Are you so certain it'll be Martial, Joe? Care to make a bet?


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I'm fine.
> 
> I am certain that the monk will be a ki striker. It's so obvious; any other speculation is ludicrous. It's wishful thinking that's _wrong_. And the constant, enthusiastic _wrong_ness gets on my nerves.
> 
> ...




Nope. I'm not certain at all. That's why I was thinking there might be a break of the funky monk stuff versus the pure unarmed fighter that's more... robust than a monk tends to be. 

But that could open up another market... sort of like a dead pool. You'd have to get a third party to take the bets with the money up front and then the winners get their slice from that.


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## Rechan (Feb 12, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> That's why I was thinking there might be a break of the funky monk stuff versus the pure unarmed fighter that's more... robust than a monk tends to be.



That might be a break in the Ki striker class, that one is more about stances and such, and the other is like Ryu from Street Fighter. 

But WotC has never signaled they're going to try and cater to multiple tastes like that. So I don't expect it any time soon. 

There is, simply put, more money in delivering the Wuxia-and-all classes, then there is in not going full-tilt. Because I believe the Wuxia-likers outweigh the non, and watering down the Ninja/Monk/Samurai to accommodate the later will likely alienate the former. 

It's the same reason I believe the monk won't be psionic. Because you have your psionic fans, your oriental adventures fans, and you don't want to alienate them both by putting the Psionutbutter in the chocoMonk.

That, and WotC obviously likes putting things in nice little boxes, instead of letting them spread out, archetypely speaking. For instance: if you want to be an Archer, you must be a Ranger. The end. So it stands to reason: If you want to hit things with your fist, you're going to be a Ki Monk. The end. 

_If_ they were going to make a martial power-source option, they'd have put it in Martial Power, as an alternative build for the Fighter or Rogue or Ranger.



> But that could open up another market... sort of like a dead pool. You'd have to get a third party to take the bets with the money up front and then the winners get their slice from that.



I could get behind that.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2009)

In terms of putting things in little boxes though, we're already starting to see them peel that back a little. Martial Power does have an option for the old two sword wielding fighter now.

I suspect those things will be parcleled out in places like Dragon and other Player focused sourcebooks.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 12, 2009)

The really intersting question isn't the power source nor the role of the Monk. That will be Ki Striker. 

The question is what kind of implement/weapon do they use to get their enhancement bonus to attack and damage?


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## Cadfan (Feb 12, 2009)

And will they attack with wisdom?


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## Phaezen (Feb 12, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The really intersting question isn't the power source nor the role of the Monk. That will be Ki Striker.
> 
> The question is what kind of implement/weapon do they use to get their enhancement bonus to attack and damage?




I would not be too surprised to see the monk parceled out into several roles like the druid.  Monk - Ki Striker, ...? Ki defender, ...? ki controler.  I do expect to see some defender and controller secondary abilities at the very least.

Now to add to the speculation Str, Dex and Wis as primary attributes?

Phaezen


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 12, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> And will they attack with wisdom?






Phaezen said:


> I would not be too surprised to see the monk parceled out into several roles like the druid.  Monk - Ki Striker, ...? Ki defender, ...? ki controler.  I do expect to see some defender and controller secondary abilities at the very least.
> 
> Now to add to the speculation Str, Dex and Wis as primary attributes?
> 
> Phaezen




So many questions... I think Strength (Grappler Build) and Dex (Maneuver Build) as primary attribute, and Wis as secondary. If they still do the "two different abilities for primary attacks". Otherwise, I suppose they might want to pick Wisdom. But Wisdom also makes sense as their "Striking Special Ability" stat (like with the Avenger and Sorcerer do it)

Grappler Variant is all about grapple, pins and throws, while the Maneuver Build trips and knocks prone and is pretty mobile. 
Alternatively, stuff gets even more mystical in one variant, with "Ki Strikes" at range or stuff like that.

If it would really be STR/DEX/WIS, this would mean they can cover all defenses with their statistics, which might be neat. (Of course, you still "only" get 2 ability bumps at 4/8/14/18/24/28th level, so one defense will still lag...

Or it will be all very different.


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## balard (Feb 12, 2009)

I think the monk ki striker will be more for mystical/punching side. The grappler is more of a defender than a striker. Ki strikes, Damaging Touchs...

If anyone played the old Street Fighter RPG, the Hurricane Kick would be a Great daily for the monk. Close Burst 1, hit: |w| damage, effect: push 1, shift 1. repeat twice. 

Another nice one is the last feature of the shinsei disicple from OA. Lock the target and the user of using anything but basic attacks. Nice utility in a elite/solo controller.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm wondering whether their striker damage will be from "iron fist" style ki-charged power punches (no doubt with flaming fists or something) or from "flurry of blows" style - lots of attacks with relatively small damage but which can add up.

It might be amusing if the monk at-will attacks included one which was a minor action 1d4+ability damage melee attack - that would give monks a lot of mobility and still get little stinging attacks off, or sacrifice their mobility (and take the risk of getting a big hit back) and flurry off a whole series of those little jabs. There would probably be damage granting synergies from warlords which would make that an unattractive rule, but it might fit the flavour of D&D and cinematic 'monks' nicely.

Cheers


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## thundershot (Feb 12, 2009)

If I ever play a Monk, he'll be a master of Tai Kwon Leap...


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## Pour (Feb 12, 2009)

It was suggested at NY Comicon in a passing comment by one of the R&D guys that the Monk could be a martial controller. I leave the greater implications of that for others.


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## yesnomu (Feb 12, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> It might be amusing if the monk at-will attacks included one which was *a minor action 1d4+ability damage melee attack* - that would give monks a lot of mobility and still get little stinging attacks off, or sacrifice their mobility (and take the risk of getting a big hit back) and flurry off a whole series of those little jabs. There would probably be damage granting synergies from warlords which would make that an unattractive rule, but it might fit the flavour of D&D and cinematic 'monks' nicely.
> 
> Cheers



As I recall, Ari's Advanced Player's Guide Martial Artist did just that-- although I think it was once-per-round limited.


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## Nightson (Feb 12, 2009)

My guess, Ki Striker (obv)

Closed Fist Style:  Straight up damage, strength as primary attribute.

Open Fist Style:  More pushing, pulling, sliding, status conditions and ongoing damage, wisdom as primary attribute.


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## Insight (Feb 12, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The really intersting question isn't the power source nor the role of the Monk. That will be Ki Striker.
> 
> The question is what kind of implement/weapon do they use to get their enhancement bonus to attack and damage?




That's a very good question.

I think it'd almost have to be an implement because going totally unarmed means no weapon to enhance and the 3rd ways they tended to use to give monks bonuses (gloves, amulets) in 4th ed are assigned to other things.  Gloves I could _maybe_ see, but definitely not amulets.

I could see some sort of "handwrap" implement or something along those lines.

Another option is to go with the staff monk and come out with a bunch of new staves tailored to monks.


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## Insight (Feb 12, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> I'm wondering whether their striker damage will be from "iron fist" style ki-charged power punches (no doubt with flaming fists or something) or from "flurry of blows" style - lots of attacks with relatively small damage but which can add up.
> 
> It might be amusing if the monk at-will attacks included one which was a minor action 1d4+ability damage melee attack - that would give monks a lot of mobility and still get little stinging attacks off, or sacrifice their mobility (and take the risk of getting a big hit back) and flurry off a whole series of those little jabs. There would probably be damage granting synergies from warlords which would make that an unattractive rule, but it might fit the flavour of D&D and cinematic 'monks' nicely.
> 
> Cheers




There are lots of ways to handle the bonus damage mechanic.  I could see sacrificing the minor action to add a bonus die, stances, upping the base damage (although this is somewhat dangerous) or giving the monk multiple attacks would all accomplish this in different ways.  What I _don't_ want to see is a mark mechanic aka ranger or warlock.


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## Cadfan (Feb 12, 2009)

You could also do something new, like a counter attack mechanic.  Choose the enemy as your chosen opponent in some way, and whenever it attacks you, make a basic melee attack back against it.  You'd have normal damage when monsters didn't attack you, but when they did, you'd exceed the power curve by a bit.

Kind of like an always-on riposte strike versus a chosen foe.

I don't think this will happen, though.  Whatever it is will probably be labeled Flurry of Blows.


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 12, 2009)

Pour said:


> It was suggested at NY Comicon in a passing comment by one of the R&D guys that the Monk could be a martial controller. I leave the greater implications of that for others.



Really? Do you know what was specifically said? That would certainly make things a lot more interesting.

Honestly, I have little doubt that the Monk will at least lean towards being a Controller, even if it is a Striker. If nothing else, I imagine that the Monk would both have a "hard style" build that would deal damage and emphasize Striker elements, and a "soft style" build that used throws and such to move enemies around and emphasize Controller elements. If the latter build is named after the Setting Sun discipline, and included the Ballista Throw (one of my favorite moves from the Tome of Battle), then it would be all the better.


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## JackSmithIV (Feb 12, 2009)

Pour said:


> It was suggested at NY Comicon in a passing comment by one of the R&D guys that the Monk could be a martial controller. I leave the greater implications of that for others.




Love it. Mostly because I don't see why a whole Ki power source is necessary. What other opportunities does that open up for classes that people are really excited about? I'd be great for them to finish up the Martial classes by making them a Martial Controller, and then allot more resources to other, more desirable power sources, like psionics, or something else.

I suppose Elemental would be cool, but I don't see it likely that they'll stick to that, considering sorcerer was their big opportunity to introduce such a theme. Shadow might be nice, I suppose. I only see Ki as being very viable if they wanted to bring back an Oriental-Adventures-style campaign setting. Which, in all honesty, might be pretty interesting...


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## Hawke (Feb 13, 2009)

My big question about a Ki power source is what else can you do besides Monk? Some suggest Ninja, but I'm not sure how that isn't martial or potentially shadow? What other classes can you put into this power source and how do they work? 

I know they already said something about it, but I think ditching the Ki class and reflavoring the monk (whatever role) as Martial wouldn't bug me too much unless I'm shown the light about what Ki really means.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 13, 2009)

I can see a few potential uses.

Samurai using ki shouts to stun their enemies with a mighty slash, lighting duels with bonuses to iniative, etc...


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## Rechan (Feb 13, 2009)

Hawke said:


> My big question about a Ki power source is what else can you do besides Monk? Some suggest Ninja, but I'm not sure how that isn't martial or potentially shadow?



Ninja are about more than just "I disappear". Ninja were said to have clairvoyant powers. In addition, there are various "Death Touch" techniques. Think of something like the "Quivering Palm" of the 3e Monk. 

Basically, any instance where you could take a normal Rogue, and say, "Let's make this beyond the realm of physical possibility. Dial this sucka up to 11." 

If you need any further idea, look no further than: Ninja Scroll or Basilisk. The anime are full of ninja with thematic superpowers. 



> What other classes can you put into this power source and how do they work?



Samurai. "But Samurai is just a fighter!" Look at the OA samurai, and the one in Complete Warrior. 

Shugejena or however it's spelled.


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 13, 2009)

Hawke said:


> My big question about a Ki power source is what else can you do besides Monk? Some suggest Ninja, but I'm not sure how that isn't martial or potentially shadow? What other classes can you put into this power source and how do they work?
> 
> I know they already said something about it, but I think ditching the Ki class and reflavoring the monk (whatever role) as Martial wouldn't bug me too much unless I'm shown the light about what Ki really means.



Ki works as something that is a lot like Martial (as in it is heavily linked to training and weapon use), but much, much more flashy. Where a Martial character would use strength, technique, and strategy in order to deliver a solid blow with a sword, a Ki character would move faster than the blink of an eye and release an energy shockwave from a sword instead. Basically, Ki is Martial with added energy blasts and the plausibility limiters removed. For example, I don't think there is a single Martial class (or even a class at all) that has a Close Blast 5 _Weapon_ power, but such an attack would be fairly normal  for a Ki character, especially if WotC was serious about emulating Hong Kong martial arts films and Japanese videogames and anime.

As for classes...

The Ninja is not going to be Martial simply because it would be impossible to differentiate it from the Rogue in such a role. The Rogue is already stealthy enough, can pull off a ninja vanishing trick, can double jump, and gets a bonus for using shuriken, after all.  If we are going to see a dedicated Ninja class, it is probably going to be much more fantastic (and probably would involve breathing fire, walking on water, illusions, and summoning giant frogs). If anything, I am hoping that the Ninja is going to be Elemental, rather than Ki, because I don't think it is necessarily a good match for Ki.

I can easily imagine a Ki Swordsage/Samurai class, built around high-speed movement, iaijutsu attacks, blade shockwaves, area-effect sword attacks (like the previously mentioned Close Blast 5 Weapon power), and other such flashy and over-the-top feats often associated with characters of folklore and anime.

Honestly, I think they could probably create a fairly respectable number of classes simply by elaborating a number of different supernatural fighting styles, and bringing them together based on concept. For example, a pure barehanded "Monk" class that uses throws and Ki-blasts, a more weapon focused "monk" class that uses staff and spear-based fighting techniques (give it more of a Chinese/Romance of the Three Kingdoms flair, possibly), a "dancer" that uses unusual weapons like fans and light weapons like knifes in order to confuse opponents, a class that can debilitate a foe with a single touch, etc. So long as these classes are distinct and have a supernatural edge, they can be very different from Martial classes and remain quite unique.

Actually, another good class that could easily be Ki is the old 3.5E Soulknife class. It was never a great fit for psionics, but I think it would work with Ki very well.


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## RefinedBean (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, we already have a martial controller: it's called the Fighter.

I definitely think the Ki power source is in the works, and I see it breaking down as such:

Monk:  Ki Striker

Wis primary, Con and Dex secondary

Shugenja:  Ki Leader

Cha primary, Wis and Int secondary

Samurai:  Ki Defender

Str primary, Wis and Con secondary

Wu-Jen:  Ki Controller

Wis primary, Cha and Int secondary

The Ninja will probably be another Ki Striker, and will be released in a "We can't afford to do a book on it so here's a big ol' article on Dragon" which will cover Oriental Adventures-ish stuff.  Then, all five will see love from the Ki Power sourcebook.

And if there's no Ninja, as TwinBahamut mentioned, the Rogue is pretty much a Ninja who doesn't take himself as seriously.


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## Flobby (Feb 13, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> Well, we already have a martial controller: it's called the Fighter.
> 
> I definitely think the Ki power source is in the works, and I see it breaking down as such:
> 
> ...




I bet Shugenja and Wu-Jen is Elemental though.

My prediction? PH3 has 4 Ki, 2 psionic, and 2 elemental.
Monk and Ninja - Striker
Samurai - Defender
??? - Leader 

Then elemental leaders and controllers
and psionic leader and controllers?


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 13, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> Well, we already have a martial controller: it's called the Fighter.



Err... Huh? This doesn't make any sense...



> I definitely think the Ki power source is in the works, and I see it breaking down as such:
> 
> Monk:  Ki Striker
> 
> ...



I really doubt that the Wu Jen and Shugenja are going to be Ki. They are practically Arcane or Divine, and are much more likely to be the basis for the Elemental Power Source, considering that they are among the few classes to be explicitly constructed around a system of elements (the only other that I can think of is the variant 3.5E Ninja styles from Dragon magazine).



> And if there's no Ninja, as TwinBahamut mentioned, the Rogue is pretty much a Ninja who doesn't take himself as seriously.



Even if it is not in the PHB3, I am certain that there will be a Ninja class in one of the Player Handbooks. Ninja are just too popular. There is no way that anything is going to beat one of them out for a prominent class spot.


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## Jack99 (Feb 13, 2009)

Perhaps the monk will be psionic?


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 13, 2009)

TwinBahamut said:


> RefinedBean said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.

Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.

(nb, I wonder what degree of 'control' wizards can manage without using any powers and only relying on their class features...)

Cheers


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## Drakhar (Feb 13, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.
> 
> Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.
> 
> ...



This. And it gets even more evident when you give a fighter a reach weapon. A glaive using fighter polearm master just stops things from getting around him.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 13, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.
> 
> Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.
> 
> ...




I think there is an overlap between Defender and Controller, but one big difference is: The Defender, how ever he "controls" his opponents, his abilities work to reduce the benefits of not attacking him. The Controller doesn't want to get hit (and he can act at range). 

If you look at the Fighters At-Will powers - which of them exactly are good controller powers? 

The Wizards At-Will attacks might lack some punch and control, but I think Thunderwave and Scorching Burst make him explain pretty well where he wants his enemies - further away from him, so he can strike at range. Icy Ray makes it harder for enemies to get close, and Magic Missile ensures he can strike even at long distances (though in and on itself, it doesn#t offer much control).

Not all role abilities lie in your class features.


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## drothgery (Feb 13, 2009)

Flobby said:


> I bet Shugenja and Wu-Jen is Elemental though.
> 
> My prediction? PH3 has 4 Ki, 2 psionic, and 2 elemental.
> Monk and Ninja - Striker
> ...




I doubt I'm guessing correctly on this, but how about breaking out the rest of the 'most wanted' list in PHB3, with 2 ki, 3 psionic, 3 shadow (down with needless symetry!)

ki striker - monk
ki defender - samurai
psi striker - soulknife
psi leader - telepath
psi controller - psion
shadow striker - shadowdancer
shadow leader - necromancer
shadow controller - illusionist


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## Squizzle (Feb 13, 2009)

I've become increasingly of the mind that PHB3 and PHB4 will be two-source books, so that each source gets a full four classes necessary for a Power book, allowing WotC to do two Power books a year. I think ki and psionics are a good fit together, but both are so strongly anticipated that it'd be almost ridiculous to put them together when you could split them up and get two strong sellers instead of one very strong seller, plus the sales on whoever wants shadow and elemental. Since ki is confimed for PHB3, I am sadly assuming that psionics are pushed to PHB4.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> If you look at the Fighters At-Will powers - which of them exactly are good controller powers?




One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.

They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.

They didn't do this for Wizard, which is a huge shame. It would probably dramatically reduce the level of 'problems' which many people see with the wizard.

Class features are what (should, and in every other case do) define your ability to fill your role. Powers can be taken to support the role or to lean out towards some other role - most classes have a secondary role in mind.

Cheers


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## Remathilis (Feb 14, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.
> 
> They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.
> 
> ...




I STILL say that has a lot to do with wizard "orders" being scrapped late in the game to avoid Golden Wyvern Adepts and Emerald Frost Orb-users. I bet dollars to donuts that if we could see the 2007 version of the wizard class, we'd see a lot different class...


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 14, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> In practice I think it does - I've been calling the fighter a 'martial controller' for a long time now - because more than any other class it dictates what the bad guys can and cannot do during a fight. The fighters stickyness is like superglue - very hard for enemies to get detached and go and do what they want to do. Bad enough in open ground, in dungeon settings the fighter has a 'zone of control' that allows THEM to determine what options the other guys have.
> 
> Controlling the battlefield? They do it all day, every day, without using any powers - just their class features.
> 
> ...



What you describe is the reason Fighters are very good Defenders, and has nothing to do with them being Controllers. There is some overlap between the two (I have always seen both as the defensive roles), but creating a singular zone of stickiness is not the same thing as being a controller. In my opinion, the job of the Controller is to move enemies into the zone of stickiness and to tie down or defeat enemies outside of the zone of stickiness, not the create the zone of stickiness themselves. Defender and Controller are supposed to be synergistic, not interchangeable, after all.


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## Cadfan (Feb 14, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> One of the things which early design articles talked about was the desire to give each class features which allowed them to fulfil their roles no matter what powers they took.
> 
> They did this for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord.
> 
> ...



I agree that this would solve a lot of problems that people feel the class has, but I disagree that its necessary.  If the power list does the job, then the power list does the job.

That being said, maybe it is necessary just to satisfy the low grade OCD that some gamers seem to suffer from.  Go to the WOTC forums some time.  There's a guy there who keeps analyzing and reanalyzing the controllers, trying to find the one component part that makes them a controller.  He's worked it down through several multi-page posts, finally landing on "possesses an at will area burst 1 power."  Its the only thing that is 100% universal with controllers and 0% represented in non controllers.  If wizards had a class feature that was obviously control, this guy could take his powers and devote them to curing cancer.


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## Fifth Element (Feb 14, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> I STILL say that has a lot to do with wizard "orders" being scrapped late in the game to avoid Golden Wyvern Adepts and Emerald Frost Orb-users. I bet dollars to donuts that if we could see the 2007 version of the wizard class, we'd see a lot different class...



You're probably right. The nerdrage probably cost us some good stuff there.


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## UngeheuerLich (Feb 14, 2009)

Fifth Element said:


> You're probably right. The nerdrage probably cost us some good stuff there.



I bet the nerdrage has cost us a lot of good stuff... not only the wizard...

I also beieve the skill challenge system suffered under the nerdrage... allowing the player to decide how hard the challenge will be like at DDXP was ingenious...
the paladin mark also suffered a bit i believe... it went from slightly abusable to a lot less efficient...


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## RefinedBean (Feb 14, 2009)

You know, honestly, I just threw Shugenja and Wu-Jen into the Ki spot because they just have that "feel" of redirecting energy flows and what-not.  Whatever.  Elemental works just fine, too.   

But yeah, Fighters have an unheralded secondary role of Controller.  In my experience, whenever there's a Fighter in play, they control a HUGE chunk of the battlefield.

Of course, the Warden is coming up, and he's probably going to be even MORE controller-y.



			
				Remathilis said:
			
		

> I STILL say that has a lot to do with wizard "orders" being scrapped late in the game to avoid Golden Wyvern Adepts and Emerald Frost Orb-users. I bet dollars to donuts that if we could see the 2007 version of the wizard class, we'd see a lot different class...




I'm a bit lost here, was this from an early 4E playtest or something?


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## Rechan (Feb 14, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> Of course, the Warden is coming up, and he's probably going to be even MORE controller-y.



WHat's interesting is that the Warden and Swordmage are both quasi-controllers.

Swordmages do the area affects/blasty stuff. They eat minions for breakfast. Wardens do the status effects/battlefield shaping. 



> I'm a bit lost here, was this from an early 4E playtest or something?




Between 4e's announcement in GenCon August 2007 and the books hitting the shelves in June 2008, WotC put out a bunch of preview articles about 4e. The article in question that's beeing referenced is this article back in September, 2007.

The relevant info is here: 


> The *orb* is favored by the *Iron Sigil and Serpent Eye* traditions. Serpent Eye cabalists use orbs to focus powers of enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring. The mages of the Iron Sigil, on the other hand, employ orbs to guard themselves with potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force.​
> 
> The *staff* is best suited to the disciplines of the *Hidden Flame* and the *Golden Wyvern*. Servants of the Hidden Flame wield fierce powers of fire and radiance through their staves. Golden Wyvern initiates are battle-mages who use their staves to shape and sculpt the spells they cast.
> ​ The *wand* is a perennial favorite for wizards who favor accurate, damaging attacks. *Emerald Frost adepts* use wands to help channel powers of cold and deadly acidic magic, while *Stormwalker theurges* channel spells of lightning and force through their wands.
> ​ A wizard without an implement is like a slightly near-sighted man with glasses: The man can still see, but without his glasses, he can’t read the road sign across the way. Likewise, while wizard traditions are associated with a particular implement, a wizard need not possess or hold a given implement to use a power belonging to that tradition. For instance, a wizard belonging to the *Hidden Flame* order can cast the fire spell _cinder storm_ even if he doesn’t own, has lost, or is not holding a magic staff. But if he does have a magic staff, it aids the accuracy of his attack, and his mastery of the *Hidden Flame technique* allows him to deal more damage with the spell.​



​ This article spawned a lot of anger among the messageboards because DMs felt that WotC was wedging flavor into the classes themselves, thereby forcing the DM to include that flavor. There were tons and tons and _tons_ of threads about how Golden Wyvern Adept was going to ruin the game.


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## glass (Feb 14, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> Well, we already have a martial controller: it's called the Fighter.





TwinBahamut said:


> Err... Huh? This doesn't make any sense...



If I were a betting man, I'd bet RB was satirising your ascribing classic defender traits to your putative controller!


glass.


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## Cadfan (Feb 14, 2009)

Rechan said:


> This article spawned a lot of anger among the messageboards because DMs felt that WotC was wedging flavor into the classes themselves, thereby forcing the DM to include that flavor. There were tons and tons and _tons_ of threads about how Golden Wyvern Adept was going to ruin the game.



Plus just about every thread on a different topic had at least one thread-crapper sneering about it.


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## Rechan (Feb 14, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Plus just about every thread on a different topic had at least one thread-crapper sneering about it.



What I find very funny, is that before 4e came out, there was tons of complaint about the intrusive fluff.

Now that it's out, there's complains about how there's _not enough_ fluff.


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## Jack99 (Feb 14, 2009)

Rechan said:


> What I find very funny, is that before 4e came out, there was tons of complaint about the intrusive fluff.
> 
> Now that it's out, there's complains about how there's _not enough_ fluff.




Welcome to the Internet, where people will complain about something no matter what.


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## RefinedBean (Feb 14, 2009)

Rechan said:


> This article spawned a lot of anger among the messageboards because DMs felt that WotC was wedging flavor into the classes themselves, thereby forcing the DM to include that flavor. There were tons and tons and _tons_ of threads about how Golden Wyvern Adept was going to ruin the game.




Psh, it seems fine.  It's basically what we ended up with anyway, only without the tried-and-true WotC style of not being able to name things worth a damn.  

Thanks for digging that up, Rechan.  Also, you're right:  I had forgotten how controller-y the Swordmage was, even more so than the Fighter.



			
				glass said:
			
		

> If I were a betting man, I'd bet RB was satirising your ascribing classic defender traits to your putative controller




Sure, let's go with that.    Honestly, Plane Sailing summed it up best in his post(s).  And Mustrum was looking for fighter AWs that have controller-based elements to 'em:

Footwork Lure
Tide of Iron
Cleave (auto-killing a minion seems very controller-y to me)


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 15, 2009)

glass said:


> If I were a betting man, I'd bet RB was satirising your ascribing classic defender traits to your putative controller!
> 
> 
> glass.



Honestly, I think your attempt at clarification probably needs more clarifying than the statement you were trying to clarify. 

And PlaneSailing did make that statement quite a bit more clear to me, though I still don't agree with it. Different ideas about how the roles work and the way different powers work towards different roles, I guess.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Feb 15, 2009)

TwinBahamut said:


> Different ideas about how the roles work and the way different powers work towards different roles, I guess.




Yeah...to me, it's fairly clear that the Defenders and their secondary roles so far are:

Fighter (Striker)
Paladin (Leader)
Swordmage (Controller)
Warden (Controller...although, it could be argued that their secondary role is Defender)

To me, in order to be a Controller, you need to have an area attack at range.  As the post from WOTC on Wizards and their at wills said, they didn't want to make the controller role defined by AoE, however.  They wanted classes from all roles to get multiple attacks and AoEs.  So, simply having an AoE doesn't make you a controller.

I'd say that the goal of the Defender role is: Keep enemies attacking you and away from your allies.

The goal of the Controller role is: Keep enemies AWAY from you and to decrease the effectiveness of attacks that do happen.  This is done by decreasing the teamwork of the enemies.

If the goal of a Leader is to enhance the teamwork of their allies(healing those who get in trouble, giving bonuses to those who need them at the right times, keeping everyone close together, moving people around for flanking, and so on) then the Controller is the opposite.  They examine all of the enemies and figure out ways to make their teamwork fall apart(moving enemies out of flanking, encouraging them to break up and spread their damage around instead of concentrating it, making them leave cover, giving them minuses to hit).

The major difference between Defenders and Controllers is that Defenders concentrate on the area immediately surrounding them(1-3 squares away) and Controllers focus on the entire battlefield.  Plus, a focus on single target rather than AoE.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 16, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> To me, in order to be a Controller, you need to have an area attack at range.




OK. To me, in order to be a Controller, you need to limit your opponents choices in terms of movement or actions (via status effects).

Cheers


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## Majoru Oakheart (Feb 16, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> OK. To me, in order to be a Controller, you need to limit your opponents choices in terms of movement or actions (via status effects).




It can't just be that, however, otherwise nearly every class is a controller.  They all can bestow status effects that limit movement or actions.  There has to be something that differentiates controllers from everyone else.


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## Nymrohd (Feb 16, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> OK. To me, in order to be a Controller, you need to limit your opponents choices in terms of movement or actions (via status effects).
> 
> Cheers




Exactly. I know some people do not like the comparison but in CRPGs the role of the controller is rather more explicit than it yet seems to be among the D&D community. A controller takes away monster turns. In D&D he can do that by eliminating minions, removing move actions, or removing standard actions. The wizard does this to some degree, most effectively with damaging zones and spells that grant mass status effects. Yet a controller is not really about AoE. A single target polymorph or charm are among the archetypical control spells, both belonging to the wizard identity, none of them in his current spell list. Also circumstantial spells are a big aspect of control. Silence effects to neutralise spellcasters, shields against artilery (abjurations and wardings are as much control as they are defense), wingbinds for flyers; all these are control effects. 

The class feature that should have been there to make the wizard a good controller is not some effect tacked on his attacks but rather a spellbook that lets him design from multiple options so that his utilities and dailies could be circumstantial.

What I am not certain is where exactly the debuffer belongs. The ability to reduce the effectiveness of enemies does not seem to be a signature skill of any of the current roles, at least not conceptually.


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