# Head over heels for a girl.



## Ferret (Nov 4, 2005)

I met someone. Some one I'm head over heels in love with. And now I know what love is.

Love is about being scared, like I am now. I'm scarred that if I ask her out (again) she will think I'm obsessed with here, in a bad way, and all I've been getting was mixed signals. I'm scared that if I don't ask, I'll lose her. I'm scared that I'll stop loving here, no matter how impossible it seems. I'm scared she doesn't love me. I'm scared I'm becoming unhealthily obsessed with her.

See, I've already asked her out, and she said no. That it wasn't me, it was her. But all I could read from that was that she was scared too. I asked one of here friends what she felt about me today, the reply was that she liked me as a friend. But she's smart enough to figure out who wanted to know, and she didn't want me to know? Or am I being paranoid? Obsessed?

But she is on my mind all the time, every song I hear, my love sick mind, twists into it being about her. Or me and her. Or me being love with her. And when I say every song I mean every song.....I was listening to Macey Grey - I try and I started crying. I listened to Slipknot - Vermillion pt. 2 and nearly cried. I listened to Symphoney of Destruction by Megadeath, and that was about me being in love with her. Or The Reason by Hoobastank..... I just can escape.

But shes so much more then the sum of her parts, and I'm scared that I'll lose her.


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## Turanil (Nov 4, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> See, I've already asked her out, and she said no.



 :\  What else to say?


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 4, 2005)

She said no, so do not ask her out any more...ask her to join you, this is stuff like _"hey, I am going to the mall, do you want to join me?  No, okay maybe some other time...take care."_ But don't do it too much and don't stalk her.


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## Ferret (Nov 4, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> She said no, so do not ask her out any more...ask her to join you, this is stuff like _"hey, I am going to the mall, do you want to join me?  No, okay maybe some other time...take care."_ But don't do it too much and don't stalk her.




Thats what I'm afraid she'll think, I'm not going to ask her out again if that wahats going to happen.



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> What else to say?




Je pas.


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## PowerWordDumb (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm going to be nice here, and it's unaccustomed, so I hope you appreciate the effort.

You're not in love.  At all.  Not even a little.  Save yourself the pain and find somebody else.


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## Ferret (Nov 4, 2005)

Please explain yourself more.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 4, 2005)

Remember that the world is full of amazing people to meet, not just one person to meet.

Good luck.

Warrior Poet


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## loki44 (Nov 4, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> But shes so much more then the sum of her parts, and I'm scared that I'll lose her.





I'm sorry, but based on what you said it doesn't seem like she's yours to lose.  Give it some time and don't do anything drastic.  If you try too hard that's a surefire way of failing.


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## fusangite (Nov 4, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> I'm scarred that if I ask her out (again) she will think I'm obsessed with here, in a bad way, and all I've been getting was mixed signals.



Can you give us an example of mixed signals? Otherwise I'm inclined to side with Turanil here.







> I'm scared that if I don't ask, I'll lose her.



Fortunately you don't have her so that particular fear can be put to rest.







> I'm scared that I'll stop loving here,



Don't be scared of that because, if she rejects you/has rejected you, that's what you will have to do.







> I'm scared she doesn't love me.



She doesn't. But if God is really really on your side, there might be a 1% chance that one day in the future she could.







> I'm scared I'm becoming unhealthily obsessed with her.



You are.







> See, I've already asked her out, and she said no.



That says to me that she is not attracted to you and you should give up.







> That it wasn't me, it was her.



Well, I know one reason you're attracted to her. She's polite. I like polite girls too.







> But all I could read from that was that she was scared too.



Sounds like nothing more than wishful thinking on your part because:







> I asked one of here friends what she felt about me today, the reply was that she liked me as a friend.



That means that this girl has already made it known to other people that *she is not attracted to you*. Unless you present us with some compelling new evidence, I think we can declare that *this girl is not into you.*


> But she's smart enough to figure out who wanted to know, and she didn't want me to know? Or am I being paranoid? Obsessed?



Yes. And I'm sure that is making you appear even less attractive to this girl than you already do.







> But she is on my mind all the time, every song I hear, my love sick mind, twists into it being about her.



I've been there, man. That sucks. I hate that feeling. Fortunately, as you age, these feelings will get less intense when they hit you. But riding them out is really kind of unpleasant. It's like having a fairly disabling mental illness for weeks or months at a time. We, on ENWorld, feel for you and hope you start feeling better soon.







> ...and I started crying.



1. Don't tell people on D&D message boards things like this.
2. You sound young enough that you can get counselling for free. Sounds like you need a few sessions with a counsellor to give you some strategies for getting ahold of yourself.
EDIT: Just checked your profile. I'm almost positive 16 year olds in the UK can get counselling for free.


> I'm scared that I'll lose her.



You don't have her so you can't lose her. You aren't scared that you will lose her. You are scared you won't get her. And you're right to be scared. You almost certainly won't.


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## Ferret (Nov 4, 2005)

When I'm a room with her she seems to turn and look at me mroe often then usual, and whn she said no, she had a big pause, smiled nervously, then said what she said (not me it's you).

When I said 'Lose her' I didn't mean that I had her, I meant that I'd lose a chance of being with her.

Thank you for giving me your views.


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## Buttercup (Nov 4, 2005)

Oh dear.  

Ferret, you *are* obsessing over her, and you need to stop.  I guarantee that your current state will make it less likely that you will ever win her affections, not more.  Let me give you a hint.  When a woman says "it's not you, it's me" what she really means is "it is completely and totally you, but I'm trying to be polite."   It is possible that she is scared, as you say.  But if she is, she isn't scared of her feelings for you.  She is scared of your over-intense feelings for her.  Please believe me when I say that we women are not attracted to desperation.

I recommend that you try to put her out of your mind and occupy yourself doing other things.  Eventually you will run across a girl who is suitable for you.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 4, 2005)

I wonder if this thread requires chanting the sacred name of Teflon Billy three times in hopes that he will appear to provide the righteous love-life smackdown we all require from time to time . . . hmmm.  Don't know.  For now, let's forge ahead without the Great One's guidance and see what we can learn.



			
				Ferret said:
			
		

> When I'm a room with her she seems to turn and look at me mroe often then usual, and whn she said no, she had a big pause, smiled nervously, then said what she said (not me it's you).



You're 16?  So, presumably, she's around the same age?  By now you've probably noticed that life at age 16 is somewhat awkward?  So the reason she seems to be acting awkward when you and she communicate is because she feels awkward.

This does NOT mean that she really means yes when she says no.  What she really means is, in fact, no.



			
				Ferret said:
			
		

> When I said 'Lose her' I didn't mean that I had her, I meant that I'd lose a chance of being with her.



Exactly, and that's what fusangite said.  See?


			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> You are scared you won't get her.




My advice is to *RELAX*.  Take some very deep breaths.  Go read a book.  Go get some exercise (exercise is a wonderful way to help get some distance on things so you can get some perspective on things).  Go volunteer some time helping out someone who needs it.  Go look up some new information you never knew about lunar geography.  Go learn a new skill from a mentor.  Most of all, *RELAX*.

You're 16!  You're life is a huge, wide-open, great-big-possibility waiting to happen!  It probably seems hard to believe right now, but you're going to meet many more females that you find interesting and exciting and enchanting and curious and passionate and excellent.  How cool is that?!  Lots more!  Some of them will be attracted to you.  Some won't.  You'll be attracted to some of them.  You won't be attracted to others.  Welcome to life!

fusangite and some of the others here have made some good observations.  It doesn't seem like this girl wants to go out with you, and THAT'S FINE.  You will be o.k.  You'll live, and go on to have a long, interesting, fascinating life as a living, breathing, human being and taxpayer, and some day look back on all this and laugh about it.  Sounds cliché, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

An observation about some things fusangite said:


			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> But if God is really really on your side, there might be a 1% chance that one day in the future she could.



My advice is don't hold on to this, because it means holding on to hope that Someday! She! Will! Realize! You! Are! The! One!

But all that's gonna get you is heartache.  Don't hold on to hope on this one.  Move on to your life.  Save yourself the ache.  Say, "Eh, whatever," and go out into the world and meet other people and make your world a bigger place than the narrow focus on this girl to which it has recently atrophied.  Anyone that has that much mind-blanking effect on you, has TOO MUCH POWER over you, power which only you can give away and only you can reclaim.  You are you're own person, so recover that sense of self and move on.



			
				fusangite said:
			
		

> You are scared you won't get her. And you're right to be scared.



I agree with the first sentence.  fusangite is absolutely, right-on-accurate with that statement.  However, I submit that while you may feel scared, you don't necessarily have to be.  It's hard not to be scared when you're scared -- can't just say, "I'm not scared!" and the feeling stops.

However, you can try to focus on what I said before about turning your mind to other things.  This girl isn't the be-all and end-all of you.  Don't make her out to be the sun in your world.  1) She's not, and 2) it's actually really insensitive and presumptuous to do so.  She's who she is.  She is NOT who you imagine she is.  So forget about her, move on, go find something to occupy your time, like role-playing games or sports or bio-mechanical engineering or juggling or impenetrable mysteries of the universe such as whatever happened to good FM radio.

Let her go.  It'll hurt, but that's o.k.  It will also heal, and then you'll be better equipped with some perspective and life experience the next time you meet someone to whom you are attracted.

One last thing.  I'd say counseling, as fusangite suggested, is a good move.  It can really help to get some focus by talking to a qualified professional (instead of a bunch of amateurs on a message board) who is removed from the situation and can point out things about the situation you can't see because you're blind over this girl.  Chin up, and good luck.

Warrior Poet


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 4, 2005)

Listen to Buttercup.  Buttercup is wise.  And succinct.  I am verbose.  That is all.

Warrior Poet


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## PowerWordDumb (Nov 4, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Please explain yourself more.




You are not in love.  You are in obsession, a whole other, rather less savory place.

You can't lose her, because you don't have her.  She's indicated quite clearly she doesn't want you.  There is no miscommunication, there is lack of acceptance on your part.

You need to shrug it off, wish her well, and hope to find someone who is interested in you and who you don't scare.

Some day, when you actually have experienced love, you'll look back on this with nothing more than a little uncomfortable laughter.  Don't make it any worse than that.


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## spatha (Nov 4, 2005)

Just remember there is a fine line between persistance and stalking. Make sure you don't cross it.


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## Einan (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't have too much to add to this discussion.  I think Buttercup hit it squarely on the head for massive damage.

Chicks dig guys who don't need them.  Be yourself.  Don't worry about whether a girl digs you.  If you're confident in yourself, girls will dig you.  I am not a looker, but I can pick up women pretty easily, mainly because I believe I can.  Confidence goes a long way.

And let the girl alone.  Chicks do not dig guys that obsess.  Large burly men in prison named Spike and Butch dig guys who obsess.  And they don't cuddle afterwards.

Einan


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

i was pretty awkward at 16 myself.  i'm less awkward now.    yes, i probably creeped girls out too.  but then i learned not to take everything so darned *seriously* and talking to girls became a lot less stressful.  soon thereafter, i met my wife.


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## Pielorinho (Nov 4, 2005)

Man, this is hard.  We've all been there.  Being sixteen is NOT a fun way to be.

YOu may be in love in the way that sixteen-year-olds are in love, just not in the way that thirty-year-olds are in love.  Unfortunately, the sixteen-year-old way is a lot more painful.

If she said no, she really, really meant it. The best thing you can do is to back way away from her.  Don't believe the idea that you can still be friends with her, at least not right now:  right now, being around her is going to be agony for you, and you'll try to act nonchalant, but you'll have an amazingly creepy rictus on your face instead of the friendly smile you think you have, and she'll be creeped out, and you'll be dying inside, and oh boy, but I am glad I will never be sixteen again.

There's a movie out there, _The Tao of Steve_.  I don't think it's a very good movie, but it's got some of the most refreshingly honest advice in it for how to facilitate romance.  Briefly, it suggests the following ideas:
1) Be desireless.  If you look like you're lookin for love, you aren't very attractive.  I don't know why that's true, but it's true; and when you have some girl with a huge crush on you who's nervous about it and tearing herself apart, and you're thinking, "oh, ick!" you'll understand.  If you can think to yourself, "Dude, I am SO OVER love," and really mean it, for some reason, it makes you more attractive.
2) Be Excellent.  Find something you're good at, and do it.  This can be soccer ('scuse me, football), running D&D games, baking cookies, or playing guitar, it doesn't matter (okay, it does matter:  if you think teenage dungeon masters have as much romantic success as teenage guitarists, you grew up in a different town than I did).  Still, be excellent at something, and do the excellent thing.  Skill, competence, confidence:  these are all attractive.
3) Be absent.  If you're not gone, how can she miss you?  Do you good thing, and then go away.  Omnipresence is one baby step from clingy, and clinginess is not attractive.

Good luck, man. I'm just telling you what I wish someone had told me when I was sixteen and agonizing over Rose Reitzel-Perry, the lovely sardonic poet who sent me letters with e.e. cummings passages.

Daniel

Edit:  Woah!  The lovely Rose Reitzel-Perry is a published author!  How cool is that?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 4, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Edit:  Woah!  The lovely Rose Reitzel-Perry is a published author!  How cool is that?




We could all google our 16-year old crushes and post them...  I found mine teaching at an ivy league school not too long ago.  Looked pretty cute for 25 years later...


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## Dougal DeKree (Nov 4, 2005)

Wow a lot of good advice here. Still I want to stress one point: If you like her, like Pielorinho said, be absent. IF she likes being with you, she will let you know. If she doesn't call/write/whatever on her part - she's not worth thinking about her any further.

Or would you like a partner who doesn't know what she wants? And even if it takes some time to find such a partner - your will find her. But it may take some patience.


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## kenobi65 (Nov 4, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Man, this is hard.  We've all been there.  Being sixteen is NOT a fun way to be.




No, it tends to not be...and it's probably even harder for many of us on these boards, given that gamers aren't always the most socially-adept critters on God's earth (lord knows I wasn't).

Ferret, when I was 16, I was in your shoes.  There was this girl...Susan Burns.  Pretty, smart, kind.  She liked me as a friend (she wasn't terribly popular in school, either), but not beyond that.  I carried a torch for Susan for *years*...from age 13 until age 20.  We were always friends, I would repeatedly make nudging advances to make it something more, and would always be (graciously) rebuffed.  I simply couldn't get it through my head that my feelings weren't being reciprocated.

So, what happened?  I finally figured out that she was being *honest* with me, and I moved on.  She eventually married someone else, as did I.

It's really hard, at 16, to believe that things can be different, or even better, when you're older, and that the heartbreak you're feeling now won't feel that way forever.  All I can say is, trust me, you'll get over it.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Nov 5, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Ferret, when I was 16, I was in your shoes.  There was this girl...Susan Burns.  Pretty, smart, kind.  She liked me as a friend (she wasn't terribly popular in school, either), but not beyond that.  I carried a torch for Susan for *years*...from age 13 until age 20.  We were always friends, I would repeatedly make nudging advances to make it something more, and would always be (graciously) rebuffed.  I simply couldn't get it through my head that my feelings weren't being reciprocated.
> 
> So, what happened?  I finally figured out that she was being *honest* with me, and I moved on.  She eventually married someone else, as did I.
> 
> It's really hard, at 16, to believe that things can be different, or even better, when you're older, and that the heartbreak you're feeling now won't feel that way forever.  All I can say is, trust me, you'll get over it.




What is worse is the girl I carried a torch for from 16 to 21 was not really honest with me.  She actually would go out with me for a time.  We would break up, get together break up.  Thanks to me "love" addeled brain, it took me years to figure out that she only went out with me when she had nobody better around.  

Trust me Ferrett, what you are feeling isn't really love.  Love actually has little fear.  Now marriage, _that_ has plenty of fear


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 5, 2005)

This sort of thing makes me glad my teenage years are far behind me.

Ferret, I think every guy has been in your situation.  I remember my first real big crush.  Like yourself, I was sixteen years old and just starting to discover women.  I had english with a sweet, pretty little thing named Melanie, and after knowing her for a few weeks I began to discover that I was thinking about her a _lot_.  Not long after that, I'd managed to convince myself that I was in love with her.

Nothing ever came of it other than flirting (curse my teenaged shyness and insecurity).  Looking back, though, I realize that I wasn't in love, just infatuated.

I wish you luck with this girl, but don't be too devastated if things don't work out:  Those teenaged crushes can be real killers; they'll lead you to believe that you're in love when in reality your feelings are based mainly on a physical attraction.


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## Pielorinho (Nov 5, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Nothing ever came of it other than flirting (curse my teenaged shyness and insecurity).  Looking back, though, I realize that I wasn't in love, just infatuated



I don't know that I'd go that far:  I do think that the emotion that teenagers feel isn't fairly characterized as "just" anything.  On the contrary, it's an overwhelmingly intense emotion, made all the more intense by the lack of anything to compare it to.

Love is a fair word for it, but you have to remember that there are many types of love.  Teenage crush love i
edit:  Dammit, kitten that I am fostering, STOP RUNNING ACROSS THE KEYBOARD AND LET ME FINISH MY POST!

Teenage crush love is one  of the more painful types, but it's also one of the more powerful, all-consuming types.  You can respect that power even while recognizing that the best thing to do in this instance is not to pursue it.

Daniel


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## Buttercup (Nov 5, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> This sort of thing makes me glad my teenage years are far behind me.




Good lord, yes.  I remember how intense all my feelings were at that age--it was like being a walking open wound.  

Ferret, I imagine that you think you will never recover from this.  You can't imagine things every being right again, being able to forget her, being able to move on.  But it *will * get better!


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## MrFilthyIke (Nov 5, 2005)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Good lord, yes.  I remember how intense all my feelings were at that age--it was *like being a walking open wound.*




I like that line Buttercup.


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## Thunderfoot (Nov 5, 2005)

Ferret - First off, I'm glad that you went out with her.  It may or may not be the only time.  I had a young lady that I was quite fond of of, she returned my gestures and I asked her out.  She said no.  Soon after, I found someone else and later married her (we just had our 17th anniversary BTW).  Why do I tell you this.  Two reasons

1) I later found out that when she found I had gotten married, she cried for a week.  Why, she never got up the nerve to go out with me, because she was worried what her parents would think (she was a rich, smart girl and I was a "loser" musician)  She actually did want to go out with me.  However, she had no conviction - I was better off without her.

2) I found someone better.  Someone who was real with me frm the beginning.  

What advice do I offer - None.  But I offer you some things to think on.

Are you totally different and what are her social habits, could she be stringing you along, or even embarrased that others mght think you are a couple?
Has she given you ANY other indication other than the fertive glances and long pauses before speaking that she MIGHT be interested in you?
Is this the first time you've EVER thought about a girl in this context before? (Your hormones are raging at the moment BTW)
What does she bring to the relationship other than being a trophy? (This isn't meant as derogitory - but more as food for thought.)

I also agree that Buttercup has spoken wisely and from the female perspective, but young girls too can have messed up feelings.  BE VERY CAREFUL!!! You can and are liekly to make a mistake whatever you do. IT"S OK!!! it's called life and you will learn from it... and so will she.
Good luck, I'm glad I'm no longer 16....


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

thunderfoot, i think you need to re-read ferret's posts...


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## Kanegrundar (Nov 5, 2005)

Ferret, 99.9% of the time that a gal tells you that "it's not you, it's me" it's you.  It likely isn't anything huge, although this obsessive side could swing my opinion the other way around, but there's something that she sees in you that she doesn't like in a boyfriend.  I know it sucks, but pack it up, move on, and don't linger over it.  There are many many more fish in the sea.  Even if the fish aren't biting at the moment, just give it time and they will.

One more thing: there are few to no emotional wounds along these puppy love lines in your teenage years that will make it so that you can't love again.  Just let this one go, and all that pain will pass.


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## Tinner (Nov 5, 2005)

Dude, you're 16.
You shouldn't even be worried about love, and/or finding "THE girl."
What you should worry about is learning to be yourself, and be relaxed and comfortable around all kinds of girls.
Your teen years are all about learning experiences.
Chalk this girl up as a learning experience, and ask out someone else.
If this girl by some strange chance IS interested in you, seeing your confidence and maturity will impress her.
If she (most likely) isn't interested in you ... wel hey, you're on a date with another girl anyway, right?
Obsessing over this chick is just going to make you crazy, and creep her out.
If you run into her, and you honjestly are just going to the mall, then by all means, be friendly and mature and invite her to tag along.
But don't freak out and torture yourself coming up with schemes to get her back. That way lies madness and stupidity.

Remember, you're young. Date early, and date often.
Sixteen is a stupid age to look for commitment and faithfulness.
Try looking for someone fun to talk to who likes you for yourself.

Good luck!
I was an obsessed teenage dork once too!
Now I've been happily married for five years to a beautiful gamer girl.
Your turn will come, but you've got maybe 10 years of maturity, and emotional pain between then and now.
Ride out these relationship wrecks, and soon enough you'll get the hang of it.


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## fusangite (Nov 5, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> My advice is don't hold on to this, because it means holding on to hope that Someday! She! Will! Realize! You! Are! The! One!



I stand corrected Warrior Poet. I basically agree with everything you and Buttercup have said. It hadn't occurred to me how Ferret would read by 1% remark. I withdraw it.







> It'll hurt, but that's o.k.



Yep. There's no way around pain. The reason adolescence is tough is because you haven't learned all the pain management routines you'll need later in life. The failure, heartache, etc. never really go away. It's just that as you age, you gain the skills necessary to manage that pain and put it in perspective. 







			
				Buttercup said:
			
		

> When a woman says "it's not you, it's me" what she really means is "it is completely and totally you, but I'm trying to be polite." It is possible that she is scared, as you say. But if she is, she isn't scared of her feelings for you. She is scared of your over-intense feelings for her. Please believe me when I say that we women are not attracted to desperation.



Ferret, weight this statement appropriately. Buttercup is the only woman to have posted to this thread and what she has said here is the gospel truth. Print this quote out, fold it up and put it in your wallet. Take it out and read it whenever you see this girl. 

And ignore Thunderfoot. I'm with BOZ: he didn't read your post thoroughly.


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2005)

A lot of people here whip out the word "obsession" a little too quickly. 

In the beginning of most every romantic relationship, there's a period of _infatuation_.  It is entirely normal, and don't let these folks tell you otherwise.  Passion is the hallmark of new relationships.  

That being said, "No" means "NO!".  Reasons do not matter.  Mixed messages do not matter. 

It's a pain, but it'll pass, with time.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Nov 5, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> That it wasn't me, it was her.
> 
> she liked me as a friend.




Let me translate from the womaneze.

1.  It is me.  As in I'm not attracted to you. (Buttercup also has a good translation).

2. Hysterical Laughter.  (It'd be lass harsh).

Now happily married,


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## Rel (Nov 5, 2005)

Ferret, listen to me very closely:

*Don't get so wrapped up in this thing that you feel compelled to harm yourself or anyone else (namely her).*

Sorry to be so dramatic about that point but I have a reason for making it and that reason is this:  So long as you abide by that one piece of advice you pretty much cannot screw this up badly enough for it to hurt you in the long term.

You might just decide to distance yourself from her to dull the pain.  And that'll be fine.
You might serenade her at midnight to prove your love only to have her reject you.  And that'll be fine (although it won't feel fine at that particular moment).
You might decide to date her best friend to make her jealous.  And that'll be fine.
You might give up on dating for a year out of frustration.  And that'll be fine.
You might carry a torch for her for the next ten years.  And that'll be fine.

Just follow that first bit of advice and this will work itself out.  You've got too much time ahead of you for it not to.


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## Ferret (Nov 5, 2005)

Thanks guys (and gals), I though my last post might have stoped the thread, but it didn't. You're great!

I do realised how I have exaggerated my emotions (in my mind and on here, this is only the second time I've asked a girl out), so I would go as far to say obsessed, but I am/was infatuated. I do realise that this isn't my only chance at a relationship, and i do have my whole life ahead of me. I'm not at the stage that I can't function without think about her, or that shes constantly on my mind, nor at a point when I would do stupid things to impress/realese my emotions. And just to clarify, when I said I cried I didn't mean I broke down into sobs, it was more like the one tear.

Honestly _if_ we did get together she wouldn't be a trophy, she is genuinely good fun to be around just as a friend, and we do have quite a bit in common (Science, Rock music etc.). The other thing that made me think we might have had something, when we were both in a taxi (going to our next lesson, different school), and I was 'testing the water' at the start, I *nudged* up to her more and she did the same. Of course with was at least 6 weeks ago, so my mind might be playing tricks on me, making me think it was more then it is.

But now I know not to be an idiot and drool over her, and let it be.

[edit: Just to make it abundently clear, I'm not going to go and do something stupid, like self harm, or anthing like that. Worst I could do is go for one last try at asking her out, but that ain't going to happen thanks to the grounding you've given me.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

yes, you've been grounded!  now don't come out of your room until you've learned your lesson!


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## fusangite (Nov 5, 2005)

Glad we could help. Good luck with everything Ferret!


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## Nuclear Platypus (Nov 6, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Listen to Buttercup.  Buttercup is wise.  And succinct.  I am verbose.  That is all.
> 
> Warrior Poet




It's only natural that Buttercup would know something about wuv, twue wuv.   

Wandering in late, don't fret about it Ferret. _Que sera, sera_. 'Sides, when it comes to romance, its as if the universe conspires against you - the harder you look, the more time you waste on important stuff like gaming, breathing, vegetating in front of a tv screen or memorizing the secret names and origins of each member of Captain Napalm's Nuclear Legion of Liberty (Calvin n Hobbes reference). Oh and some frivolous stuff like classes, bills or employment.


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## Torm (Nov 6, 2005)

From what I've read, I see a few possible paths for you from here:

1. You continue to pursue her with the same anxious nervousness as now. This will probably lead nowhere, and keep your stomach tied in knots.

2. You pursue her with complete dedication and self-sacrificing vigor, carefully avoiding the stalkerish qualities of always being physically present or nosy on the level of a private detective, while making clear your love and utter devotion to her well-being and the things she cares about. This will probably lead somewhere - but not necessarily a happy somewhere. The sort of somewhere that involves you still being devoted to her and miserable about it on occasion well after she has moved on.

3. You relax, just be her friend. I see this leading one of two places - either you remain good friends until your lives take you in separate directions at some point, or she suddenly starts to dig you now that you are no longer showing that sort of interest. This means either you were trying too hard and she likes you better when you're just you, OR, she's got some sort of problem and can't dig guys who dig her for some reason. This last one is something to watch out for.

4. You slowly begin to secretly and carefully manipulate matters so that her relationships with friends and family crumble apart, while you remain steadfastly at her side, gradually increasing your importance to her. You end up dead, in prison, or as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Probably all three.  

Don't give up, though. Heck, I went with option 2 - the one that everyone else here will tell you doesn't work and means you're an idiot  - at age 16, the girl and I were married when I was 17, and she's asleep behind me right now, 14 years later, while our kids are playing on the Gamecube in the next room. Of course, she _did_ approach _me_, way back when. But regardless, you never know until you do. 

(I should note that I tried option 2 with the girl I was crazy about at 14, too, and that ended badly for me - very badly. So much so that I still pine for her on occasion, and am fortunate to have a wife that is understanding. So the 'idiot' sentiment would probably be right. Usually. But - it's soooo romantic.  )


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## babomb (Nov 6, 2005)

Hooboy, does this thread bring back memories. Oh, to be 16 again! I would do so many things differently! I say this and I'm only 20, heh.

If it makes you feel any better, I think you're a little better off than I was then. I was so afraid of rejection I could never get up the nerve to ask a girl out, even when it was painfully obvious to everyone else that she was into me. Eventually, they'd figure I wasn't interested and go away. And THEN I'd realize, and... well, you get the idea. Being in these sorts of situations can cloud one's judgement.

There was this one girl I was into--we were friends, but it was pretty obvious she wasn't attracted to me. And she started seeing some other guy. I actually started wearing a rubber band around my wrist and snapping it every time I caught myself thinking about her. It worked pretty well, but I still find myself thinking about her every now and then.

I'm still not that good with the ladies, but the mistakes I'm making are new and different ones, at least!

Don't worry; it'll get better. Just find something to take your mind off her. Play some D&D, hang out with your friends or something.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

babomb said:
			
		

> If it makes you feel any better, I think you're a little better off than I was then. I was so afraid of rejection I could never get up the nerve to ask a girl out, even when it was painfully obvious to everyone else that she was into me. Eventually, they'd figure I wasn't interested and go away. And THEN I'd realize, and... well, you get the idea. Being in these sorts of situations can cloud one's judgement.




dude, i hear you.  i was there myself until about the age of 23 or so.  after that it didn't take me too long to catch on - i got married at 27.


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## ssampier (Nov 7, 2005)

I can't give advice, since I struggle with dating issues, too. The way I dealt with it is to not deal with it. I'm focusing on my own my "self-improvement" through school and career (school's finished, career welll...) instead of caring whom I'm dating.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> yes, you've been grounded!  now don't come out of your room until you've learned your lesson!




You sure that's wise? There's some pretty neat stuff in my room*

*now that is. In my childhood home, the room was smaller, two beds, no TV or computer, and electric heat.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 7, 2005)

Nice job everyone.

I'm kind of shocked that one of these things worked out without a complete and total disaster of a thread.


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## glass (Nov 7, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Good luck, man. I'm just telling you what I wish someone had told me when I was sixteen and agonizing over Rose Reitzel-Perry, the lovely sardonic poet who sent me letters with e.e. cummings passages.



And I wish someone had told me that when LC said 'I'm a bit busy at the moment', she didn't mean 'ask me again in a few weeks'. What she actually meant was 'Don't be ridiculous, I go out with 19 year olds with cars and jobs, not schoolboys'.


glass.


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## glass (Nov 7, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> This sort of thing makes me glad my teenage years are far behind me.



I'm glad my teenage years are behind me, but I'm starting to wish they weren't quite as _far_ behind me...


glass.


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Nice job everyone.
> 
> I'm kind of shocked that one of these things worked out without a complete and total disaster of a thread.




i've known ferret long enough to figure he was a more reasonable fellow than a lot of people were taking him for.    of course, i had no idea he was so young!


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## Belen (Nov 8, 2005)

Ah.... unrequited lust.  That intangible emotion that caused sharp pain in the...err....hea...heart....

My favorite story was actually have this gorgeous red head agree to go out with me.  We had a great time and seemed to enjoyed each other's company.  Of course, I was a teenager and did not know that rules existed such as "do not call her 20 times a day when she had not responded to the first message."

I had even scored a second date confirmed at the end of the first, but those hormones.  Yeech!  If only I had known then what I know now....  

Only mellow dudes get the pumpkin.


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## Ferret (Nov 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Only mellow dudes get the pumpkin.




LMAO!


Just for the record I'm 16, turning 17 in 3 months.


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## Rel (Nov 9, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Only mellow dudes get the pumpkin.




And welcome to my .sig!


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

EDIT: Writing between stuff at work makes for an inconsistant post.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> My suggestion: be her friend.  If something happens, it happens.  But I think you'll eventually realize that her friendship is more important to you than an unstable relationship.



My suggestion:  be friendly, but not her friend.  If you're her friend it still puts you too close to the situation, kind of what I said before about holding on to hope and how that can set you up for a lot more grief.  I think in the case of this particular relationship, being a friend is still too wrapped up in this person.  I think you can be kind, courteous, and cordial, and also go on about your life and find other interesting people you want to be around and who want to be around you, and forget about this girl and live your life for you instead of living it for her.  You don't have to be rude, but I think it will hurt to be close.

Warrior Poet


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## fusangite (Nov 9, 2005)

My suggestion: don't make TB feel like he spoke too soon. We handled this thing fine -- further interaction with this girl won't make Ferret or anyone else feel good.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I agree with Buttercup.  Having been 16 not too long ago, here's what I remember.  Most girls don't look to friends for relationships. There is some sort of mental barrier between "friends" and "more than friends."   Because of the fluidity of high school relationships, most girls have a subconscious fear of losing the friendship, and thus tend to foster relationships with people they don't know as well.
> 
> Why?  Because if she ever broke up with you (which is bound to happen eventually in a high school relationship, at least once)  your friendship would not be the same.  As much as you'd like to believe you wouldn't change, you would.  And so would she.  That's life.
> 
> My suggestion: be her friend.  If something happens, it happens.  But I think you'll eventually realize that her friendship is more important to you than an unstable relationship.




I don't get this whole post at all. _You_ outline in the first two paragraphs why your conclusion in the third is wrong.

Unless I misread the inaugural post, Ferret isn't looking for a buddy.


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## BOZ (Nov 9, 2005)

actually, i think a buddy is what he already has, but he was trying to make the common guy mistake of stretching that out into something else.  it works about 1% of the time, and the other 99% of fellas wind up cold and alone, pining for someone that thinks of them as a non-sexual friend-male.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I don't get this whole post at all. _You_ outline in the first two paragraphs why your conclusion in the third is wrong.
> 
> Unless I misread the inaugural post, Ferret isn't looking for a buddy.




Yeah...I usually what I write before pressing the submit button.  Edited above.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> My suggestion:  be friendly, but not her friend.  If you're her friend it still puts you too close to the situation, kind of what I said before about holding on to hope and how that can set you up for a lot more grief.  I think in the case of this particular relationship, being a friend is still too wrapped up in this person.  I think you can be kind, courteous, and cordial, and also go on about your life and find other interesting people you want to be around and who want to be around you, and forget about this girl and live your life for you instead of living it for her.  You don't have to be rude, but I think it will hurt to be close.
> 
> Warrior Poet




And here I thought this had been handled

Well, the aboveis a little closer, but it's still not quite there.

I always catch hell for this, but here it is...

Don't be nice to her.

Literally.

Do. Not. Be. Nice.

Being Nice, Cordial etc etc. is going to get you slotted into the "Good Friend" position real quick, and brother, _you do not want to be there_. Let me quote what Xath posted a little earlier...

[bq]...Most girls don't look to friends for relationships. There is some sort of mental barrier between "friends" and "more than friends." Because of the fluidity of high school relationships, most girls have a subconscious fear of losing the friendship, and thus tend to foster relationships with people they don't know as well...[/bq]

That is golden advice right there.

for reasons I don't and will never understand, if you want the girl (and by "want the girl" I mean want a romantic, physical relationship with the girl) then you need to be somewhat less than nice to her.

I'm running short on time today, so I will just do a cut-and-paste of my own commentary from a previous thread on the subject of relationships. Noneof my fellings or advice have really changed...nor has their utility.

Women talk a good game about liking "nice guys with a sense of humour" and suchlike. But in my experience (and that of most every guy I know; inlcuding my Grandfather, my English Prof, a Professional Wrestler, a "Hairstylist to the Stars" and a Deacon, to give you some notion of the range of folks I'm describing here) it was no accident that our culture developed the proverb *Nice guys finish last*.

Because they categorically do.

And yes, there will always be a girl who posts to a thread like this claiming that neither they, nor any girl they know,  likes jerks at all. 

While I am certain that's true in their case(s), it is not statistically signifigant enough to offset the fact that nice guys finish last is a truism in our culture..

It just means that they and their friends are anomalies.

I'm entirely spoken for at the moment (and happily so), but back in the day I had no shortage of women (I was a Serial Monogamist; one girl at a atime, but no intention of settling down).

The women were there because I followed very simple advice. I have no idea why these rules work--they shouldn't-- but they do.

1) *Deflate the girl a little*. Don't agree with everything she says. Show her up in front of her friends. If she has just announced that she liked American Idol, well, guess what you just decided is stupid.

2) *Spend Money*. Not necessarily on her. This one blows me away. If you spend a lot fo money on a girl, you are a mark. But buy drinks for yourself, your friends and--occassionally-- her, and you are in.

3) *Don't take a lot of crap*. Be ready to walk away from drama. This ones tough because you can easily get the the feeling that you are throwing away the relationship and that can make you cave. Don't. Stick to your guns and she will--inexpicably--be back.

4) *Side with her against other girls*. Girls constantly snipe, gossip and generally dig at one another, even (and maybe expecially) their friends. Join in on her side. eg...

   [bq] Her: "Molly is such a slut"
    You: "Yeah well, that's not exactly news in my circles"
    Her: "Really?"
    You: "Oh yeah"[/bq]


...this is also a good opportunity to engage in rule 1 (deflating her a little)

    [bq]You: "I thought Molly was a friend of yours?"
    Her: "well, she is"
    You: *shrug* "I guess guys just treat their friends differently"[/bq]



5) *Play to your masculine personality strengths*. What is pretty simple stuff for men is just beyond the pale for a large percentage of women. Work on "Not treating every situation as a full-on crisis" and "Not sweating the small stuff". Your ability to not worry about everything imaginable is both attractive and aggravating to most women. So don't be "Mr. Sensitive"...young women and their friends have enough "sensitivity" for an army. That tank is full. 

Bring something else to the table. Something she can't provide for herself.

6) *Be ready to fail*. Most women you meet are not going to be all that into you (unless you already have a girl interested in you...then it will be a swarm), this is just the way of things.

It is a lot easier for an average girl to get an above average guy than vice-versa. You need to pick your battles. Meet a lot of women, work on the ones who show an interest. Be ready and willing to walk away.

That's about it.

Good luck to you


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, i think a buddy is what he already has, but he was trying to make the common guy mistake of stretching that out into something else...




Well OK then Capt. Semantic

"I guess he's not interested in remaining 'Just' friends"


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 9, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> And here I thought this had been handled
> 
> Well, the aboveis a little closer, but it's still not quite there.



Yeah, I know.  I was trying to approach it from the angle that he's *already* in the "friend" stage, so just move on.  Don't try and circle back around (or somehow backtrack) to the "more than friend" stage.  Instead, achieve escape velocity and go meet other people.  No reason he can't be polite (I said friendly; should have clarified), but polite as in just being decent to another human being, not polite as in "polite will make her want me/polite is my _modus operandi_ to becoming her boyfriend."  Because I don't think he should try to get her as a girlfriend, I think he should forget her and move on.  Life's too short.   

Warrior Poet


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## EricNoah (Nov 9, 2005)

I hate to contradict the World's Handsomest Gamer (TM)  -- but...

I think TB's method ("do not be nice") might ultimately leave you unsatisfied.  Not that it won't work at all, or that it won't work for the short term.  But I think his method is strong on playing games and short on intimacy.  In the short term, game playing is useful, even vital, because almost everyone is looking for someone to be a partner in whatever life games they like to play.  Playing games can be a good way to get into a superficial relationship, which then if you both are willing, can lead to something deeper and more intimate.  But if you stay at the playing games level -- the two of you ritualistically seeking strokes from each other, the two of you both starved for strokes and unable to ask for or give strokes freely without game-playing -- you are starving your souls.  

But game playing is an important first step in establishing a relationship.  Some people won't go any further until you demonstrate that you are adept at playing.  

I know  -- psychobable.

I do think TB's "don't take crap" and "be ready to fail" advice, though, is probably good advice for any relationship.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> for reasons I don't and will never understand, if you want the girl (and by "want the girl" I mean want a romantic, physical relationship with the girl) then you need to be somewhat less than nice to her.




In the same vein (and I think I've thought it through this time), girls like guys who irritate them.  It gives them something to "fix."  I don't agree that you have to be a real jerk, but when looking for relationships, girls have a love/hate relationship with being irritated.  A perfectly nice person is no challenge, and therefore not worth having.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I do think TB's "don't take crap" and "be ready to fail" advice, though, is probably good advice for any relationship.



Yeah, this is key.  It's part of why I suggested Ferret go out in the world and do some things *for himself*, and to reclaim the power over himself that he gave away.  Self-possession is a big thing.  If Ferret's comfortable with himself, confident in himself, then he's attractive (to plenty of people beyond this chick), *and* he's still cool if meeting someone fails, and can just move on.

Warrior Poet


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> girls like guys who irritate them.  It gives them something to "fix."  A perfectly nice person is no challenge, and therefore not worth having.



What's the old joke?  A man marries a woman thinking she'll never change.  A woman marries a man thinking he will.

 

Warrior Poet


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know.  I was trying to approach it from the angle that he's *already* in the "friend" stage, so just move on.  Don't try and circle back around (or somehow backtrack) to the "more than friend" stage.  Instead, achieve escape velocity and go meet other people.  No reason he can't be polite (I said friendly; should have clarified), but polite as in just being decent to another human being, not polite as in "polite will make her want me/polite is my _modus operandi_ to becoming her boyfriend."  Because I don't think he should try to get her as a girlfriend, I think he should forget her and move on.  Life's too short.
> 
> Warrior Poet




Ahh. Points taken


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## DaveMage (Nov 9, 2005)

Wait, wait....

I have the answer.

Ferret needs to go on a date with Teflon Billy.


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## Kanegrundar (Nov 9, 2005)

Entering the Friend Zone is the easiest way never to get any action with a chick.  I firmly believe that.


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## fusangite (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> In the same vein (and I think I've thought it through this time), girls like guys who irritate them.  It gives them something to "fix."  I don't agree that you have to be a real jerk, but when looking for relationships, girls have a love/hate relationship with being irritated.  A perfectly nice person is no challenge, and therefore not worth having.



Clearly it's not the whole story, though. Otherwise the women in my seminars would all constittue solid dating opportunities.


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## DaveMage (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> In the same vein (and I think I've thought it through this time), girls like guys who irritate them.  It gives them something to "fix."  I don't agree that you have to be a real jerk, but when looking for relationships, girls have a love/hate relationship with being irritated.  A perfectly nice person is no challenge, and therefore not worth having.




I think it boils down to women/girls like to be challenged by men/boys, as opposed to fawned over.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I hate to contradict the World's Handsomest Gamer (TM)  --




Quoted cause I love seeing it in print



> But game playing is an important first step in establishing a relationship.  Some people won't go any further until you demonstrate that you are adept at playing.




See, you aren't really contradicting me at all.

The line that inevitably comes up in these threads is "Jerks get the Girl, but nice guys get the Wife" or something to that effect.

and it's always worth pointing out how wrong that is...

"Jerks _get_ the girl, and can decide how to proceed from there" comes a lot closer to the truth in my experience.




			
				Eric said:
			
		

> I know  -- psychobable.




Naw, I've seen your wife. You've done something right 



> I do think TB's "don't take crap" and "be ready to fail" advice, though, is probably good advice for any relationship.




It's good advice for every waking moment of your life.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 9, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Wait, wait....
> 
> I have the answer.
> 
> Ferret needs to go on a date with Teflon Billy.




I don't swing that way brother, neither am I a chickenhawk


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## EricNoah (Nov 9, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Wait, wait....
> 
> I have the answer.
> 
> Ferret needs to go on a date with Teflon Billy.




I sense an EN World contest with "Win a Dream Date with Teflon Billy!" mentioned somewhere coming soon...


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## EricNoah (Nov 9, 2005)

TB do you have a website?  You should be posting your various "guides to life" somewhere permanent so we can just make links to them.  

I will add ... being a jerk is not something that comes naturally to me.  And I never had to be one to get girls.  Doesn't mean I wasn't playfully antagonistic when necessary.


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## DaveMage (Nov 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I sense an EN World contest with "Win a Dream Date with Teflon Billy!" mentioned somewhere coming soon...




I'd enter.

I'd just have to figure out how to explain it to my wife.

"Don't worry, honey, it's just TB!  It'll be fun!"


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## Desdichado (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> In the same vein (and I think I've thought it through this time), girls like guys who irritate them.  It gives them something to "fix."  I don't agree that you have to be a real jerk, but when looking for relationships, girls have a love/hate relationship with being irritated.  A perfectly nice person is no challenge, and therefore not worth having.



Actually, I think that's pretty much exactly what TB was talking about.  The words used are a bit different, but the spirit of the advise is exactly the same.

And it's not always that friends can't be more than friends.  There was a gal I knew and considered a friend in high school that I could have had at pretty much any moment if I'd been experienced enough to read between the lines and take her up on it.  I only found out later, when I didn't really run in her circle anymore that that was going on.  I would have jumped on the opportunity too, if I'd known about it.  Of course, later it would have ended in a flaming mess as I got really tired of her neurosis and pathological insecurity (which I could see, but which didn't bother me as a "friend" because it only applied to her romantic relationships), but I bet the sex in the meantime would have been great!    It always is with pathologically clingy girls who are desperately afraid of being alone.

But still, I'll echo the chorus--just be this girl's friend if you want and move on.  Go out with someone else.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Actually, I think that's pretty much exactly what TB was talking about.  The words used are a bit different, but the spirit of the advise is exactly the same.




It's the girl perspective of the thing.  If guys didn't irritate girls, they'd have nothing to complain to their girlfriends about.  And with girls, there's almost an unconscious effort to show that your life has more challenges/complications than any other girls'.  And then, when you have made a successful "change" to your boyfriend, you get to gloat that much more.   I don't understand where it comes from, but there it is.

For some successful ideas of what you can do to irritate your girlfriend/wife, watch a few episodes of Home Improvement or Everybody Loves Raymond.


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## Desdichado (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> It's the girl perspective of the thing.  If guys didn't irritate girls, they'd have nothing to complain to their girlfriends about.  And with girls, there's almost an unconscious effort to show that your life has more challenges/complications than any other girls'.  And then, when you have made a successful "change" to your boyfriend, you get to gloat that much more.   I don't understand where it comes from, but there it is.



It's basic human nature, I think.  A group of guys tends to do the same thing about their girlfriends and wives too.

We don't, though.  I made a conscious decision years ago to never put down or complain about my wife to my friends, and she doesn't either.  In fact, she gets really irritated when she's out with her girlfriends and all they're doing is dumping on their husbands.

But yeah, it's pretty common behavior from most people.


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## Xath (Nov 9, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's basic human nature, I think.  A group of guys tends to do the same thing about their girlfriends and wives too.
> 
> We don't, though.  I made a conscious decision years ago to never put down or complain about my wife to my friends, and she doesn't either.  In fact, she gets really irritated when she's out with her girlfriends and all they're doing is dumping on their husbands.
> 
> But yeah, it's pretty common behavior from most people.




It used to annoy me to see/do that kind of stuff too.  But I found myself doing it anyway, because as you say, human nature.  So as a compromise to myself, I try not to say anything behind anyone's back that I have not already said to their face, or at least soon will say to their face.


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## Henry (Nov 9, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> We could all google our 16-year old crushes and post them...  I found mine teaching at an ivy league school not too long ago.  Looked pretty cute for 25 years later...




My 16-year-old crush married a good friend of mine years ago, and moved to Georgia, where we lost touch. I just Googled them both on a lark, and found her as an Arts Coordinator in an arts center in Georgia, and he's a freakin' Vice President of a Tech firm! WOW! It's good to see them doing well...


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## Chainsaw Mage (Nov 9, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Love is about being scared, like I am now.
> She will think I'm obsessed with her,
> I'm scared that I'll stop loving her,
> I'm scared she doesn't love me.
> I'm scared I'm becoming unhealthily obsessed with her.




Yep, sounds like love, all right. 

[giggles]


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## Chainsaw Mage (Nov 9, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> She said no, so do not ask her out any more...ask her to join you, this is stuff like _"hey, I am going to the mall, do you want to join me?  No, okay maybe some other time...take care."_ But don't do it too much and don't stalk her.




Ferret would then need to add, "Love is me stalking her."


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## Psychic Skeksis (Nov 9, 2005)

Chainsaw Mage said:
			
		

> Ferret would then need to add, "Love is me stalking her."




LOL! 

I'm still hoping the original post was a joke . . .   :\


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## FickleGM (Nov 9, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> ...And with girls, there's almost an unconscious effort to show that your life has more challenges/complications than any other girls'...




I think that until you become an adult, it is unconscious.  At least it appears that way from the perspective of a dad with a 16 year old drama queen daughter.

Xath: did you admit to yourself that this was the case before or after reaching adulthood?  I wonder because it appears that my oldest daughter isn't aware of doing this (she vehemently denies this and just says that we don't understand).  Maybe she is aware, but doesn't want to admit it to us.


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## Xath (Nov 10, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> I think that until you become an adult, it is unconscious.  At least it appears that way from the perspective of a dad with a 16 year old drama queen daughter.
> 
> Xath: did you admit to yourself that this was the case before or after reaching adulthood?  I wonder because it appears that my oldest daughter isn't aware of doing this (she vehemently denies this and just says that we don't understand).  Maybe she is aware, but doesn't want to admit it to us.




It depends on what you mean by "adulthood."  I'm only 20.  And while I've had a subconscious knowledge of this for quite a while, I'd never admit it to my dad.  Sheesh!
Dads just don't get it.    

Noone likes to admit that they're fickle or predictable, especially in their fragile teenage years.  When I was 16, I was trying to become an individual(?) adult, and I certainly didn't want anyone to "understand" me.  But I at least like to think that I've grown out of it.

I don't think there's a set age though.  I know people my age and older who still won't admit that they exhibit the above symptoms in the slightest.  But don't worry.  When she finally realizes what she's been doing, you'll get to laugh at her and tell stories to whoever her boyfriend is.  (at least that's what my dad did.)


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## FickleGM (Nov 10, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But don't worry.  When she finally realizes what she's been doing, you'll get to laugh at her and tell stories to whoever her boyfriend is.  (at least that's what my dad did.)




Well, she's already learned that bringing a boyfriend around me is an invitation for me to pick on her and/or him.   

I still have two girls waiting in the wings (one 11 and the other 7), so heaven help me...

In keeping with Ferret's original post, I have also had some experience with young men who had similar feelings toward my daughter.  So far, I have only had to intervene once (once you turn 18, I don't care if you are still in High School, don't call my daughter and try to meet her without her parent's knowledge - at the time, she was 14   ).

So, remember that it isn't just the girl that you risk, it could be much more (I know that I didn't consider the girl's parents when I was a teenager - but now I understand the intimidating glares and threatening postures - and those were the parents of girlfriends, not girls I was pursuing).  If you pursue a girl after she has said no, you tread on dangerous ground.


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## ssampier (Nov 10, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> And here I thought this had been handled
> 
> Well, the aboveis a little closer, but it's still not quite there.
> 
> ...





I agree somewhat. This is not totally new advice to me, since I've read some "date advice" tips that suggest the same thing. One intro pointed out, "Don't be a jerk, but be cocky/funny such as complain about her driving, then reach over and kiss her or later, open her car door for her."

I think the trick is NOT be a door-mat. I've have seen door-mats and they aren't happy (all my friends intended up as door-mats, even though they probably won't admit it).

I think it is possible to take the "jerky" stuff too far. If you're a SOB 24 hours a day to her and she five nice, handsome, and richer guys flirt with her, where do you think she's going to go? It's not with your broke, jerky @ss.

The game theory is a valid point, though. Personally I'm 25 years old and I'm not interested in playing games; it's not fun for me, too much like work. That's why I'm single, for better or worse.


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## Rel (Nov 10, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Noone likes to admit that they're fickle or predictable...




I could point out that you're replying to *Fickle*GM but I'd only be doing it to irritate you.


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## Belen (Nov 10, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> It's the girl perspective of the thing.  If guys didn't irritate girls, they'd have nothing to complain to their girlfriends about.  And with girls, there's almost an unconscious effort to show that your life has more challenges/complications than any other girls'.  And then, when you have made a successful "change" to your boyfriend, you get to gloat that much more.   I don't understand where it comes from, but there it is.
> 
> For some successful ideas of what you can do to irritate your girlfriend/wife, watch a few episodes of Home Improvement or Everybody Loves Raymond.




Actually, I have found that venting about minor complaints regarding my wife to people who are not my wife tends to relieve pressure. It also helps when someone tells you that the "irritation" is stupid.

About the only thing that bugs me right now is the lack of a second car.  Her lack of indepedence makes me feel like her dad rather than her husband.  Hopefully, we will rectify that in the next few months, but it is hyper-annoying.


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## Rel (Nov 10, 2005)

My initial advice in this thread was aimed at helping Ferret survive unrequieted love.  If the topic has shifted to how to actually GET girls then TB is on the mark as usual.  But like Eric said, I'd have had a hard time implementing that advice when I was that age.  I was initially very "nice" when I approached the woman who would eventually become my wife and she blew me off.  Later when I was accidentally dismissive toward her (I told her that we'd "just be friends"), she responded in the way that I wanted her to.

My father has given me lots of really good advice over the years but I still recall two particularly good bits he gave me when I was young.  One of them was that men tend to put women on a pedestal because "they have a monopoly on the [kitty cat] and we think that makes them special".  But he went on to say, "Once you put somebody on a pedestal though, you can really only do one thing with them:  Worship.  From *afar*.  And you don't want to be afar.  You want to be right up close where she keeps the [kitty cat]."

In short, don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf.

Oh, he also said, "Don't buy Whole Life Insurance for the 'Investment Potential'."


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 10, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Oh, he also said, "Don't buy Whole Life Insurance for the 'Investment Potential'."



NOW you tell me.

 

Warrior Poet


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## Desdichado (Nov 10, 2005)

Rel, everytime I see your sig, I get the uncomfortable feeling that either you or BelenUmeria is hitting on me...


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## Belen (Nov 10, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> One of them was that men tend to put women on a pedestal because "they have a monopoly on the [kitty cat]"




Rubber ducky, you're the one.  You make bath time lots of fun....


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## Belen (Nov 10, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Rel, everytime I see your sig, I get the uncomfortable feeling that either you or BelenUmeria is hitting on me...




<wipes diet Dr. Pepper off computer screen>


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## Rel (Nov 10, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Rel, everytime I see your sig, I get the uncomfortable feeling that either you or BelenUmeria is hitting on me...




And every time I see your .sig, I get the uncomfortable feeling that I shouldn't post while drunk.


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## Desdichado (Nov 10, 2005)

And yet the two sigs tie together remarkable well...


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## FickleGM (Nov 10, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I could point out that you're replying to *Fickle*GM but I'd only be doing it to irritate you.




Are you saying that I'm fickle?


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 10, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> My father has given me lots of really good advice over the years but I still recall two particularly good bits he gave me when I was young.  One of them was that men tend to put women on a pedestal because "they have a monopoly on the [kitty cat] and we think that makes them special".  But he went on to say, "Once you put somebody on a pedestal though, you can really only do one thing with them:  Worship.  From *afar*.  And you don't want to be afar.  You want to be right up close where she keeps the [kitty cat]."
> 
> In short, don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf.
> 
> Oh, he also said, "Don't buy Whole Life Insurance for the 'Investment Potential'."




You need to buy your Dad a case of beer.


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## Rel (Nov 10, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You need to buy your Dad a case of beer.




I tend to buy it by the bottle so that I can drink with him.  That's when he gives his best advice.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 11, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> My father has given me lots of really good advice over the years but I still recall two particularly good bits he gave me when I was young.  One of them was that men tend to put women on a pedestal because "they have a monopoly on the [kitty cat] and we think that makes them special".  But he went on to say, "Once you put somebody on a pedestal though, you can really only do one thing with them:  Worship.  From *afar*.  And you don't want to be afar.  You want to be right up close where she keeps the [kitty cat]."
> 
> In short, don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf.
> 
> Oh, he also said, "Don't buy Whole Life Insurance for the 'Investment Potential'."




Socrates, Plato, Aristotle.

All of them are morons compared to your dad.


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## Ferret (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm over the crazy, I still fancy her but the crazy is gone.

I figured out the 'Don't be nice thing', she was doing it to me a bit (not so much that I tihnk shes trying the same trick mind you) so I thought I'd return the favour. Plus it surprises here a bit, after I'd tried the nicely nicely routine.


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## Teflon Billy (Nov 19, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> I'm over the crazy, I still fancy her but the crazy is gone.
> 
> I figured out the 'Don't be nice thing', she was doing it to me a bit (not so much that I tihnk shes trying the same trick mind you) so I thought I'd return the favour. Plus it surprises here a bit, after I'd tried the nicely nicely routine.




Cool You are playing it smart now.

Keep your head in the game.


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