# Torture in a magical world (Rated R)



## drunkmoogle (Apr 20, 2004)

Recently IMC, my PCs were recently captured and tortured. I pretty much just said "you were tortured for two days, the details of which are best left undescribed." However, that didn't satisfy them, masochists that they are.

They pressed me for details, and I was truly at a loss. In a fantasy world of magical healing, it seems OOC that torture is no big deal. They took the torture pretty light-heartedly, which was not the effect I intended. Hell, they didn't even go after their tormentor when given the chance!

So I have to go shock-value. It's the only way that I believe I can engrave deep feelings of hatred into the players, as well as add to the atmosphere to the world. I'm a fan of Japanese films, which glorify violence like no other (these guys have NO taboos   ). I want to make their skin crawl. Then make them laugh nervously. Then make them try to supress their gag reflex.

That's where you guys come in. In your infinite creativity, I beg of you to grant me your boon of knowledge of torture in a fantasy world where healing comes easily. I already know of mundane techniques (The Rack, thumbscrews, The Wheel, the Pear, etc.); I want to see what you guys come up with. Let's assume we have an evil Lich wizard and cleric, each with 15 class levels and wands of _Cure Whatever Wounds_ and _Restoration_. Also, they have access to an original spell that prevents the body from passing out due to extreme pain.

I'll get you guys started. I've created a custom _Shatter_ spell which tunes in on the shatter frequency of human (or elfin, or dwarfin, whatever) bone. Ever have a bone fracture? Multiply the pain by a hundredfold, starting from the ankles up.

Keep it clean, though. If something does involve sexuality/sexual abuse, give us fair warning and put it in SPOILER text. (BTW, someone tell us how to do that)

I think I just gave the mods some more work to do.  

/walking the thin line between Creative Integrity and Just Plain Sick


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## Goobermunch (Apr 20, 2004)

I'll start with something nice and basic.  Flaying.

Step One:  Take a knife and slowly make a shallow cut through the PC's skin.  

Step Two:  Make pretty shapes.

Step Three:  Remove the shape.

Step Four:  Pack the wound with salt.

Once a substantial portion of the victim's skin is removed, use CLW to restore the victim to health.  Rinse, repeat.

--G


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## Morpheus (Apr 20, 2004)

Sacrifice one of the PCs to some Dark God using BoVD sacrifice rules. I guarantee you that will show them you mean business...


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## Talmun (Apr 20, 2004)

Book of Vile Darkness has lots of ideas for stuff like this...
One of the more horrific fantasy-world torture ideas actually _relies_ on magical healing...
The victim is given a ring of regeneration, and then tortured to the point of death.  The ring heals them back to full and the process starts all over.  This could conceivably go on for generations, with victims being inherited by the sons of the original torturers.


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## drunkmoogle (Apr 20, 2004)

Talmun said:
			
		

> The victim is given a ring of regeneration, and then tortured to the point of death...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Silveras (Apr 20, 2004)

That's actually one of the reasons I liked the idea of Fear and Horror checks in the 2nd Edition Ravenloft rules. It was a good way to "encourage" the character to react appropriately. 

I'm going to go with the key here being to help the PLAYERS appreciate the situation better. 

In that vein, 

You could give each PC a phobia that only kicks in when facing their tormentor. Perhaps they freeze up (become Shaken) whenever they see him. 
You could use the players own fears/phobias.. describe spiders in detail, etc. 
You could use real-world metaphors ... almost nobody likes nails-on-blackboard, and if you play that sound a few times .. over and over... your players may get the idea that their characters were not just hanging out
insects give many people the willies... the torturers allowed carnivorous vermin to burrow into the PCs flesh, then cured most of the damage
Don't forget the power of illusion. Spells that make the PC *feel* the pain without any damage. Spells that let the PC see himself/herself slaughtering his/her own parents at the command of the tormentor -- psychological torture. 
Looking into the Book of Vile Darkness (tame by some standards, but works for me), how about the torturer extracting Liquid Pain during the process ? Maybe a new spell that allows the torturer to inflict the same pain again on the victim, incapacitating him/her ?

If you more seriously want the PCs to appreciate the torment of their characters, you may want to maim the characters. Loss of a hand, leg, or eye should help the PC realize that this was not light-hearted. Open sores with virulent diseases ? Rotting stumps where their feet were ?


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## Gothmog (Apr 20, 2004)

A couple nasty ideas:

1) Place a PC on top of a hollowed out stone altar with a hole in the roof of the altar.  Position the PC such that his stomach is over the hole and chain him in place so he cannot move.  Then you release the starving rats into the hollow chamber below the PC.  Rats smell fresh flesh, and begin to climb up to the PC to knaw on his stomach, arm, or whatever is over the hole.  This torture was actually used in the middle ages, usually with the end result that the rats ate through the victim's belly and went into the body cavity, eating as they went.  A really gruesome way to die.

2) Systematically break bones in the PCs body, then set them badly or in warped positions and have the injury healed.  Hey, if the good guys have healing, the baddies can use it too for torture.  Plus, to repair the damage done, the PC has to have the bones re-broken and set correctly.

3) This one is guaranteed to freak out your spellcasters.  Cut out their tongues, break their fingers, then proceed to torture them normally.  Once the spellcaster seems about ready to talk, have another spellcaster use ESP or other thought reading spell to extract the info.


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## Michael Tree (Apr 20, 2004)

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> In a fantasy world of magical healing, it seems OOC that torture is no big deal.



I would say that the exact opposite is true.  With magical healing, there's no limit to the types of greivous injuries you can inflict and then heal.

I would actually suggest that you don't use the standard medieval torture devices.  They're so well known that they're almost cheezy.

Also, don't forget about psychological torture.  Make liberal use of illusions and mind control.  Make them inflict injuries upon themselves, and upon each other.  Mind probe them to find their deepest fears, then explot them.  Mind probe them to find their deepest loves, the people they hold most dear, the situations they find most relaxing and peaceful, and subvert them. Play their favorite music during torture. Polymorph the torturer into their mother, sister, lover, liege, son, and daughter. Associate everything they love and hold dear with pain and degredation, so that afterward everything reminds them of the torture.

Create a full-life illusion that they've been rescued, taken to a temple, healed, reunited with their families, and returned to their lovers beds, etc. (they'll be expecting to be rescued, so they'll hopefully fall for this hook line and sinker) and then, then, just as they're about to go to sleep happy, revoke the illusion and have them back on the torture table, and start some horrible mutilation.

Do this again.

Then again.

Then again.  

Then again.  Do each in different ways.  A few of the times they escape, and then are captured and brought back, without any sign that it's all been an illusion.  Vary the length of time they're free from hours to days even to months.  Make them doubt reality.  Make them always paranoid that their new freedom is just another illusion.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 20, 2004)

In a game I played in, one player really really hated popcorn flavored jelly beans.  Really, these things taste atrocious.

So, when his character was captured, the DM went out and bought a bag of jelly beans, systematically found all the popcorn flavored ones, and, each time he refused to answer questions they asked, he had to make a Will save for his character to resist the pain of the torture.  If the character failed the save, the player had to eat one of the jelly beans, to make the pain more real.  *grin*


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## Talmun (Apr 20, 2004)

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> Note to self: pick up BoVD.




Defiantly worth it IMO.

A couple of real world tortures:

The Iron Boat
A large metal device, roughly shaped like a boat, fits around the torso of the victim, it's weight keeps the victim immobile.  The poor sap is taken out to a field or garden and left.  Now for a little twist, the victim is regularly fed and given water...this way his waste will accumulate around him, attracting insects and small vermin.  After about a week, the pests begin to nest in the victims flesh as well as the fecal mater, and his muscles atrophy...this kind of torture could go on for months.

A Walk around the Tree
A hole is cut in the victims stomach, and a loop of his small intestine is pulled out and nailed to a tree.  The 'subject' is then forced to walk around and around the tree, as his guts are pulled out and wrapped around its trunk.


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 20, 2004)

Use mental torture.  Those can't be cured by _cure_ spells.  I suggest forcing them to proofread a movie review by Harry Knowles.


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## Pants (Apr 20, 2004)

I kinda like the Iron Maiden that automatically heals the person who's locked inside it. 



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Use mental torture.  Those can't be cured by _cure_ spells.  I suggest forcing them to proofread a movie review by Harry Knowles.



Almost forgot...
If you want to see a good way in which torture is utilized in a DnD world, read RA Salvatore's _Spine of the World_.  Wulfgar wemt through some bad s**t.


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## reiella (Apr 20, 2004)

Torture in a world of magical healing can be made so much worse.

After all, you can patch them right back up again to tear their skin off, patch by patch.

And thanks to spells like Status to know just when you are risking death.

Consider the Goa'uld from Stargate [sg-1 canon] and their means of torture.  They have a slight advantage that even if you die, they bring you right back to continue the torture.


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## fourthmensch (Apr 20, 2004)

This reminds me of that episode of Stargate where Col. O'Neill is captured and then tortured to death over and over again. Usually by burning him to death with acid. There's an idea... Even one death followed by ressurection would scare the crap out of most players (just because of the level loss).

 All sorts of torture ideas can come from movies. Seven: force them to remove a pound of flesh from themselves; eat themselves to death; do the sword dildo trick with a beautiful woman. Snatch: Let starving pigs (or whatever horrible beasties you can think of) eat them alive. Perhaps eat all of them, followed by a True Ressurection. Maybe then move on to organs. Star Wars:Give them a _ring of regeneration_ and then put them in the stomach of a massive beast, or a vat of acid. 
 
 Lots of interesting fantasy possibilities in a magical world too. Like maybe cut off some fingers and toes, then clone. Let the frenzied clone beat the crap out of them for a while before forcing them to watch the clone (ie, themselves) die horribly. Repeat with other digits. 

      Although I like the idea of player-torture as a proxy. I have a player that hates those jelly beans too . Maybe just get one of those spray water bottles you use on your cat and spray that in their face every time they refuse to answer a question. I live in Arizona, so I could probably make them sit outside in the sun (110 degrees plus in the summer); this would work equally well in snow, rain, etc. Smoke lots of cigarettes and blow the smoke in their faces. Put lots of delicious mountain dew and potato chips in front of them, eat them yourself, and don't let them have any . Throw dice at them and don't let them block. If you have kids, let _them_ torture the players in any manner they see fit; I know I would be scared witless by marauding offspring pulling hair and kicking shins. 

      Wow, just thinking about this is disturbingly fun. I wonder what that means...


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## Dreaddisease (Apr 20, 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9363/history.htm

This should help. I hope.

Also add in taint and you can have some pretty messed up characters at the end of it all.


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## Epametheus (Apr 20, 2004)

The deceased decides whether or not to come back..

With the assistance of a big, sentient creature, you could off something like a subject being swallowed, and then being regurgitated after spending half a minute or so in the critter's gizzard.  The tricky part here would be not killing the person by accident.

Some necromantic spell that made it possible to dissect or dismember someone and stitch them back together could be nasty.

Remove body parts in some slow & painful manner, and then Regenerate them.

On a purely mechanical level, multiple uses of Bestow Curse are handy -- impose -4 on all checks and saves, and then slap -6 to Str and Wis.  Granted, a priest might not balk at the wisdom damage and a martial-type might not balk at the strength reduction, but other people will probably be reduced to the 4 to 6 range in those stats, making them rather easy to handle.

Actually, you should probably represent torture more with stat damage than with HP damage -- many tortures are crippling instead of fatal.  If the victims have Str and Dex scores of 1 or 0 by the time they're rescued, the players will have a much better idea of how badly messed up their characters are.


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## notjer (Apr 20, 2004)

Spanish torture 
water torture 

both really nasty


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## BSF (Apr 20, 2004)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> Create a full-life illusion that they've been rescued, taken to a temple, healed, reunited with their families, and returned to their lovers beds, etc. (they'll be expecting to be rescued, so they'll hopefully fall for this hook line and sinker) and then, then, just as they're about to go to sleep happy, revoke the illusion and have them back on the torture table, and start some horrible mutilation.
> 
> Do this again.




OK, this is interesting because the players are already blowing off the "torture".  Let them free for a while, feeling great, doing good deeds, etc.  Then, in the middle of the session, call a 5-minute break.  Shoo everyone out of the room, collect character sheets and leave a downturned note at each spot on the table.  Lay their minis out on the prepared torture chamber map.  Dim the lights, put on the creepy music, bring in the players.  

Start by having the villian gloat over their predicament.  Let them turn over their notes and read what condition they are in.  Give them something nasty.  Maybe the rogue or the bard doesn't have any fingernails or toenails left.   Ever try picking an instrument without any fingernails?  What about picking a lock?  If they still blow it off, make them understand that it might be permanent.  Reset the bones on the Arcane spellcaster in 90 degree angles.  It's hard to use somatic components when your hands don't function correctly. Use rot grubs, and other parasites, on the Divine spellcasters.  For the fighter types, reinfoce a fear of loud noises.  Like every time a weapon hits metal, they have to make Will checks to avoid being Shaken.  Give them claustrophobia if they like heavy armor.  

Then, rescue/free them again.  Decide if it would be fun to let them imagine freedom for a while, or if they understand the horror enough to actually let them be free.


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## Henry (Apr 20, 2004)

Hi, all. As long as the thread doesn't go gratuitous, and descriptions stay within the bounds of good taste, then it'll be okay.

One suggestion that goes along with this, is that you CAN'T let them die; remember in 3E that resurrection is voluntary for the soul, so if you let 'em die, then your torture session ends.

In my homebrew, there is a spell running around called the Chains of Mortality (it's about a 7th level spell). The idea is that while under the influence of this spell (it has a will save to resist), the creature cannot die, no matter how greivous the wound. Take this idea, and run with it. Imagine all of the things that have been suggested here, and think about not having to worry about accidentally killing them. A torturer could almost obliterate an individual, and let them stay that way for a while...


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2004)

I like the illusory freedom idea a lot....

Ploymorphing has a lot of turturous possibilities.....try a Partial Polymorph -- turn their tongues into snakes, or their legs into ooze....


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## Stalker0 (Apr 20, 2004)

If you want something nasty to give to the players to simulate torture... try giving them vegetarian parmisan cheese. That stuff was the nastiest substance I have ever consumed, my friends and I agree, just the smell makes you sick.


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## ph34r (Apr 20, 2004)

Tell your players this is what happened.

1. They were placed in a room and tied up in front of a mirror.
2. They heard some singing which made them fall asleep.
3. They awake to see that something has taken black paint and doodled on their faces.
4. They notice a small pink creature in the corner.
5. The creature begins to sing again and they fall asleep once more.
6. They awake to find more little doodles on their faces.
7. This repeats itself for the next 48 hours.

If this doesn't teach your players to be happy with what you give them then I don't know what will!


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## FreeTheSlaves (Apr 20, 2004)

Torture used:


Spoiler



Use dominate person and sexual abuse



The lich casts "Clone" using a finger from each character.

The characters can no longer be restored to life in any way other than the clone.

Each time the character dies, he dies permanently or is cloned. If the clone is accepted, the lich casts Clone again on the now chained character.

Essentially every time the character dies they come back 1 level lower than the original state when they were first captured. I.e. level 10 then 9... They will remember their abuse and grow increasingly less able to exact any revenge.

Oops, forgot to mention the 2d4 months. This is even better! Basically this threat hangs over their characters all the time until they do something about it.


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## Jolly Giant (Apr 20, 2004)

The Dutch had a rather nasty torture they used back when they were at war with England. The victims would be chained, hanging by their wrists from a high wall or ceiling. Then really big wax candles were lit under their feat...

Once the heat really got to work on the victims flesh, enough melted bodyfat to actually put out the candles would flow from the victims legs, so the candles had to be relit quite often.   

If this doesn't churn players' stomachs, get new players!


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## Jolly Giant (Apr 20, 2004)

Another (x-rated) idea just struck me:

Let the BBEG's henchmen have their  jollies with the PCs. If being gang-banged by orcs and bugbears doesn't make your PCs hate their captors, nothing will.

Again, if this doesn't work, get new players!


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## Crass (Apr 20, 2004)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> Another (x-rated) idea just struck me:
> 
> Let the BBEG's henchmen have their  jollies with the PCs. If being gang-banged by orcs and bugbears doesn't make your PCs hate their captors, nothing will.
> 
> Again, if this doesn't work, get new players!




To add a bit of spice to that, make the other one watch...


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## hong (Apr 20, 2004)

ABBA. 'nuff said.


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## Asmor (Apr 20, 2004)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> Another (x-rated) idea just struck me:
> 
> Let the BBEG's henchmen have their  jollies with the PCs. If being gang-banged by orcs and bugbears doesn't make your PCs hate their captors, nothing will.
> 
> Again, if this doesn't work, get new players!




Actually, in one short-lived campaign, that's how the party first found one of the PCs. Except it was kobolds.

No real reason, just wanted to pick on the particular player. It was all in good fun. 

Hmm... Let's see, torture... How about a mind control spell that leaves the PCs conscious and aware and even able to talk as themselves, but they are utterly unable to control how they act. Then have them take turns ripping eachother apart-- with their teeth.

Have a hose shoved down their throat, then pump scalding water into them until their stomach and then their abdomen explode.

Ring of regeneration and a small area that teleports anyone who touches it 100 feet straight up into the air.

You know those deli slicers? Build a similar contraption and have the pcs bound and then slowly cut down to size, starting from the feet, 1/16th inch by agonizing 1/16th inch.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Apr 20, 2004)

I'd suggest you check out BOVD or for other examples of torture for creatures that can regenerate if you can find "The Inquisition" from White Wolf's Year of the Hunter line (not the hardcover).

Drawing and Quartering has always been the worst for me.  Slice em across the gut, run a hook through their intestines, and then have a horse run with it.  Regeneration will keep them from dying.  The again, cutting their heads off while under the effect of a Regen would be a nice torture too.

Bring a Mind Flayer in and have it create a sensory link with one of the victims while it munches on the brains of another prisoner.  If you want to get really nasty have it do the same to your PC while he is under the effect of a Regen... not enough brains to kill the PC but enough that he tastes his own brains and feels the pleasure that the Mind Flayer is getting from doing so.  At that point I'd probably start using the Sanity rules from Unearthed Arcana as the PC will most likely have lost it.

I'm not really this sick of an individual.  The D & Q treatment was in Braveheart and the Mind Flayer thing is in the 2E AD&D book "The Illithiad".

Edit: Another one occured to me.  Take small mithril (so it won't corrode) caltrops and cut incisions near bending joints (knee, elbows, etc) and place the barbs inside and then heal the whole thing back up.  Then have them chased around a track by some kind of viscious beast.

MUA-HA-HA-HA!


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## drnuncheon (Apr 20, 2004)

Wounds don't scare players.  They're too easily healed.  You need to go for stuff that does.

Hit them with a level draining effect once or twice a day. They'll make the Fortitude save to get it back sometimes, but they'll eventually see their precious XP slowly dwindling along with their capacity to escape.

Stat drains are similar.  Go for the primary stat of each character.  Make sure it's an actual drain and not just stat damage, so when they ask if they healed it back overnight, you can say 'Hahahahaha!...no.'

Create _simulacrums_ of the party to go out and commit evil in the party's name.  Arm them with the party's stuff.  Make sure to bring evidence of said evil back to share (mustn't be greedy.)  Reputations are even harder to cure than wounds.

Make sure the players are being tortured separately.  Don't torture one of them, or make it obviously token torture (just bruises, nothing permanent).  Store the PCs together.  Have that character taken away on his own often.  Roll a Sense Motive check behind your screen every time the player claims that he doesn't know why he's being given 'special treatment'.  Watch the distrust grow.  For bonus points, have one of the torturers refer to something they "couldn't" have heard, in the presence of one of the other PCs.  Trust is even harder to cure than a reputation.

J


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 20, 2004)

Mental - just have one watch as the others are tortured. 

One that the Inquisition used, gause was placed in the mouth of the victim, them water was poured onto it.  Effect was that of drowning and said to be very very effective.


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## Sejs (Apr 20, 2004)

> To add a bit of spice to that, make the other one watch...



Heck, use the Dominate spell - make the other one do it.

Others: Amateur dentistry.  Joint breaking.  Planar Binding - imps with Fiend of Possession levels, let them be host to a demon.  Creatures that can look like them running around free while they're imprisoned - destroy that which they love.  Illusion of freedom is great.  Illusion of vindication.


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 20, 2004)

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> Recently IMC, my PCs were recently captured and tortured. I pretty much just said "you were tortured for two days, the details of which are best left undescribed." However, that didn't satisfy them, masochists that they are.




The characters probably need game reasons as well as story reasons to feel that the "torture" was "real".  In any RPG, I have found, the worst torture players experience is losing control of their characters.

Torture should cause both HP and ability point damage.  Depending upon the damage, and the length of torture, force Will saves (or maybe Fort for the tough guys), repeatedly.  Not too high a DC, but often enough that saves fail.  Eventually, the DC goes high enough that its almost impossible to save.

Every time a save fails, the character blabs (even if the villain isn't after information), or offers something to stop the torture.  Anything.  As in, "Take them, not me" or "Just kill me" or "Yes, I confess, I am a witch".

Ie, torture assaults dignity as much as body.  Assault their control of their characters, and they will respond.  Extend that assault beyond the actual torture session as others have suggested (ie, becoming shaken when hearing loud noises, etc.) and they will do what they can to avoid it in the future.

Raven Crowking


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 20, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> Stat drains are similar.  Go for the primary stat of each character.  Make sure it's an actual drain and not just stat damage, so when they ask if they healed it back overnight, you can say 'Hahahahaha!...no.'




Remember that if the characters are not allowed to rest, they are not allowed to heal either.


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## Whisper72 (Apr 20, 2004)

Hmmm... all very uuhmmm... creative ways to torture PC's, but from the original question, I think the main problem is not that the torture itself was or wasn't nasty enuff, but the reaction of the players was very 'relaxed'.

It seems as though the Players are more roll-players then role-players, and as long as the stats of their PC are unharmed, they don't care. Apparently the simple humiliation of capture, gloating BBEG, torture etc. done to the PC has no effect on the Players, they apparently have little empathy/connection with the PC they play.

This means that the only torture they will fear is something that has LASTING damage effects on the stats / XP's etc. of their PC's. Some of the abovementioned torture methods where lasting damage is done to the PC's are therefore good ideas. Also the total destruction/removal of beloved magic items, or simply have the BBEG give them away to vassals / friends whom the PC's cannot ever trace, so their toys are irrevocably lost to them.

Have disfigurement type side effects of the damage (regardless of cures) be such that CHA is lowerd so dramatically that initial reaction effects are always negative and ppl are disgusted by them etc.

You need to get the PC's where it hurts the PLAYERS's feelings...


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## mmadsen (Apr 20, 2004)

If you briefly acquaint yourself with real historical torture techniques, I think you'll come up with more (and worse) fantasy tortures than you'd like.  In reading about the crusades recently, I came across a passage where a fellow had his hand cut off.  Then they poured boiling pitch over it -- burning him terribly, but, as you might imagine, cauterizing the wound.  Then they cut off his other hand.  More pitch.  Foot.  More pitch.  Other foot.  More pitch.  Now they cut off the lower portion of his arm.  And so on.  Truly cruel.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Apr 20, 2004)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> If you briefly acquaint yourself with real historical torture techniques, I think you'll come up with more (and worse) fantasy tortures than you'd like.  In reading about the crusades recently, I came across a passage where a fellow had his hand cut off.  Then they poured boiling pitch over it -- burning him terribly, but, as you might imagine, cauterizing the wound.  Then they cut off his other hand.  More pitch.  Foot.  More pitch.  Other foot.  More pitch.  Now they cut off the lower portion of his arm.  And so on.  Truly cruel.




Do that to a Fighter who has spent significant feats in being the baddest Two-Weapon Style specialist in the lands and you are going to have a VERY pissed player.  The same goes for a Ranger because no matter what fighting style he went for he won't be using paired weapons or a bow ever again if he only has one hand.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 20, 2004)

Whisper72 said:
			
		

> You need to get the PC's where it hurts the PLAYERS's feelings...




Also think about mental illiness, player may now be a drinker, or have a fear of fire (or become a pyro), all because of the treatments.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Apr 20, 2004)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Also think about mental illiness, player may now be a drinker, or have a fear of fire (or become a pyro), all because of the treatments.




The only problem is that these are all Role-Playing issues.  I think it has been established that the Players don't care what happens to their characters as long as their stats are unchanged.  The DM could always impose a role-playing penalty if they don't take mental issues into account.  Hand loss is a great one.  Eye loss is even better, without depth perception there is no reason not to assign a penalty to ranged attacks.  That would be great for archers and wizards (ranged touch attack spells).


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## John Q. Mayhem (Apr 20, 2004)

Crucifixion is unpleasant. If they've seen Passion, you can just say "Hey, remember The Passion? That's you." Suspended by hooks in skin, lighting a bit of magnesium over them so it burns right through, burying alive (possibly with unpleasant creatures in the grave), and castration (with regeneration you can do it over and over again...) would all suck. Have you seen The Cell? A man's belly was cut open, the end of his small intestine pulled out and attached to a bar above him. The bar was then turned, slowly pulling it out.


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## drunkmoogle (Apr 20, 2004)

My gods, you are all sick bastards. Keep it up. 

Gotta run to class; I expect this thread to hit 75 posts before I get back.


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## Kahuna Burger (Apr 20, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> Create _simulacrums_ of the party to go out and commit evil in the party's name.  Arm them with the party's stuff.  Make sure to bring evidence of said evil back to share (mustn't be greedy.)  Reputations are even harder to cure than wounds.




To preface, I'll just throw in that I don't believe torture should be inflicted on any PC unless the group as a whole and the PC in particular has agreed to run that level of game. The players in the orriginal example may have blown it off because that was what they wanted to do: play the game they signed up for, not an interactive PTSS tutorial. If a DM in a standard (non discussed) game pulled almost anything from this thread on me I'd say "Oh, I guess that triggers my self disinigrate contingency tooth cap." If they were foolish enough to point out that such an item wasn't part of the character I'd designed, I'd tell them that what they are doing isn't part of the game I designed it for so we're even.   we would then either have an adult conversation about what kind of game was being run or I'd be looking for a new group... 

That all said, one adapted from the New Mutants of all places, though only good for good or nice neutral characters - pull out all the evil of a character and give it physical form. (a warped version of the mirror of opposition might work) The original and the evil version have both a mental link and a wound transferance, so any damage the evil twin takes is expereinced by the original. Evil twin goes out and exagerates or perverts every connection the orriginal had. Original always felt overshadowed by another party member? Evil twin captures and tortures them while mocking their impotence. Original liked to spar with party members or allies to see who was a better fighter? Evil Twin beats them in the sparring then keeps striking until they are almost dead. Original has a love interest or known attraction? Don't think we need to spell that out here. The original has to watch (or even expereince) all this, take any wounds received and be told over and over that deep down this is what he *has always wanted.*   Afterwards, certain wounds he took heal only with scars, no matter how great the magic used, providing constant reminders to the former friends who inflicted them in self defense. they get all the traditional torture of the wounds evil twin takes, the psychological torture of watching their friends and loved ones hurt and the life shattering aftereffects of a reputation and associations that just won't go away.

Kahuna Burger


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## drnuncheon (Apr 20, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> To preface, I'll just throw in that I don't believe torture should be inflicted on any PC unless the group as a whole and the PC in particular has agreed to run that level of game.



 Now, when you say this, do you mean that the PCs shouldn't ever be tortured, or merely that they should have the option to 'fade to black' and not have to sit through the details?

 If it's the latter, I completely understand.  Graphic scenes of torture are not something that you should have to sit through unless you really want to.

 If it's the former, well - torture can and does happen to the hero in every genre, even light-hearted swashbuckling (_The Princess Bride_, for example).  I can understand the desire to not sit through a detailed description of the effects, but saying "no, I'm not going to let my PC be tortured, period" seems...munchkiny?  Sort of the equivalent of throwing a fit when your character takes damage, or something else doesn't go your way.

 Personally, I think it's the player's responsibility to say "Hey, I'm uncomfortable with this."  The DM can't be expected to think up every condition that might potentially occur in his campaign that has a possibility of offending any particular player, and then run them through a questionairre to determine the level of acceptability.  There needs to be a certain amount of maturity on both sides, where the offended player is ready to believe that the DM isn't out to get them, and the DM is willing to listen to the player's concerns.  

 Pulling out the 'disintegration tooth-cap' is a reaction only warranted if the DM is unwilling to budge, and even then, it would be preferable to simply say, "sorry, I think I'm in the wrong game" and then depart.

 J


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## Darkness (Apr 20, 2004)

Right, my players (a freelance adventuring group of neutral and good alignment) once were working with the Harpers in an undercover mission against the Zhentarim.

At some point, two of the neutral-aligned PCs (a Rashemaar berserker and a cleric of... Azuth, IIRC) decided to switch sides, ratted out their NPC Harper contact to the Zhentarim, and then proceeded to torture him for information to prove their loyalty to their new masters.

I don't recall all details but 



Spoiler



they poured molten lead on his private parts, among other places.


 
They also made sure that the other PCs and their NPC allies (who also were adventurers/mercenaries) were enslaved and put to hard labor.

The cleric soon after switched his loyalty from his former god to Bane. (This was before the Time of Troubles.)


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## tauton_ikhnos (Apr 20, 2004)

Seasong wrote some commentary here:
http://b22.ezboard.com/fseasongsmusefrm20.showMessage?topicID=5.topic

And one of his players wrote story hour:
http://b22.ezboard.com/fseasongsmusefrm9.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

Think magical healing available in both. Non-boring medieval torture devices present in both, too.


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## Kahuna Burger (Apr 20, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> Now, when you say this, do you mean that the PCs shouldn't ever be tortured, ...
> If it's the former, well - torture can and does happen to the hero in every genre, even light-hearted swashbuckling (_The Princess Bride_, for example).  I can understand the desire to not sit through a detailed description of the effects, but saying "no, I'm not going to let my PC be tortured, period" seems...munchkiny?  Sort of the equivalent of throwing a fit when your character takes damage, or something else doesn't go your way.




Actually, throwing torture into a non discussed game strikes me as the DM being the munchkin. Torture *can* happen in every genre, but it does not happen in every story. A good rpg game is a story, and a well run one is a story that everyone involved in knows the basic plot of. The basic plot of the story must also be supported by the mechanics. If the story includes the use of poison, poison use is included in the mechanics. Both delivery *and * defenses are spelled out in terms of how to save against it, class and race bonses to those saves, magical defenses and cures, etc. If the story includes domination magic, domination magic is spelled out in the mechanics. Delievery and defense, feats, equiptment and spell use to guard against it. 

If the story is going to include torture, in order to play the game fairly, torture MUST be spelled out and integrated into the mechanics. Several mechanics have been suggested, but to add them in mid game with no chance for the characters to have any feats, spells, equiptment, class abilities or racial adjustments to defend against it is the munchkin situation here, not simply stating "this isn't the game this character was designed for, and if you are retrofitting the game, I am retrofitting my character to match." If there are no pre agreed mechanics to it, torture is merely a story element in the character's history, such as falling in love or having a child which are at the discretion of the player, not the DM.

There is no pain in D&D within the mechanics. There is no psychological trauma, no mental disadvantages, no rules for phobias unless you use a suplemental rule book. Therefore, in the baseline rules of D&D, torture does not exist as an in game occurance. To add it is to change the rules, and to add it in arbitrarily without the other mechanics changing to fit is to change the rules very badly. To compare an objection to that with throwing a fit because a character takes damage according to the base and understood rules of the game is just foolish and insulting.

This is a topic I've dwelt on and discussed at length in the past, even to the extent of an intermittent side project on the defenses that would exist in a D&D world if "R-rated" dangers existed, and how to integrate them into the base rules. As a result, I ramble on a bit on the topic. As an additional result, I snicker when someone calls the stance munchkin...

Kahuna Burger


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 20, 2004)

Now something we have not talked about but really is torture to players, the loss of gear!  Hey, they were picked up, held, feed, tortured by some of the best people in the business, do you really think they would get their equipment back!    

This could be plot hooks for later games.


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## Beholder Bob (Apr 20, 2004)

..saying "no, I'm not going to let my PC be tortured, period" seems...munchkiny? Sort of the equivalent of throwing a fit when your character takes damage, or something else doesn't go your way.

Actually, I agree with the above point.  When you make a PC, you include HP.  That means you accept the chance your character will get killed.  It sucks.  You may have a well developed PC with a great history, should/could become the main character of a book, and is light hearted enough that death is too cruel a fate.  But with HP on your character sheet, that indicates a chance for death.  Torture is short of death, but more then reasonable.  It is in the BoVD (so rules DO exist that cover it).  Unless you are not given a fair chance to avoid capture and torture (a dues-ex-machina inescapable encounter that automatically places you in a position you get tortured in), you had a chance to avoid it.  Getting captured means your PC could have been killed instead.  If you really can not deal with torture, ask the DM to have your PC die during torture.  Roll a new PC up.  Being captured and tortured is a chance to role play and plan escapes rather then being the target of a coup de grace.  What is the problem?

If you do not want to deal with torture - play in a game that does not include that in its genre.  As to dnd not having torture in the game - uh, dungeons is in the name.  Not just the S&M type either.  Grind.

BB


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## Kaodi (Apr 20, 2004)

*Hmmm...*

Mark of Justice. Lots and lots of Marks of Justice. Marks for attacking people, marks for defending people, marks for being nice, marks for being happy, marks for squishing small bugs, marks for huggling tiny kittens. Marks for every possible way marks can be removed, lots and lots of them. Marks for the fighter attacking foes, marks for the rogue evading spells, marks for the wizard casting buff spells, and marks for the clerics healing allies. Marks for removing cursed items. So many Marks of Justice that the players can't do anything without triggering stat damage, penalties to rolls, inability to act and worse. 

Not sure how scary/frustrating that would be...


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## drnuncheon (Apr 20, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> If the story is going to include torture, in order to play the game fairly, torture MUST be spelled out and integrated into the mechanics.



 I think you'll find that several of the suggestions, mine included, were discussing how to use the currently existing core rules to simulate torture.  I can see your point regarding DMs that suddenly pull an 'oh, and there are pain rules now', but there were plenty of suggestions about other forms of torture that require no additional mechanics.  

 For example, stat damage and stat drain are already part of the rules, already have defenses and spells relating to them, etc.  It's a bit misleading to claim that torture using these rules is 'retrofitting'.

 Similarly, spells like _simulacrum_, _dominate person_, and _disguise self_ are part of the rules, so you can't really call the potential for mental torture that exists there 'retrofitting'.

 As for this:



> a well run one is a story that everyone involved in knows the basic plot of



 ...well, I can't disagree more.  I've been in some great campaigns that boiled down to a 'bait and switch' - the players went in expecting one thing and got something completely other.

 I guess it all comes down to player-GM trust.  If you trust the GM, then you're more likely to accept a lot of stuff. If you go in convinced the GM is out to 'get' you, then, if nothing else, it's alot harder to have fun.

 J


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## Kahuna Burger (Apr 20, 2004)

Beholder Bob said:
			
		

> Actually, I agree with the above point.  When you make a PC, you include HP.  That means you accept the chance your character will get killed.  It sucks.  You may have a well developed PC with a great history, should/could become the main character of a book, and is light hearted enough that death is too cruel a fate.  But with HP on your character sheet, that indicates a chance for death.  Torture is short of death, but more then reasonable.




Torture is not short of death, its a completely different situation, and I don't find it more reasonable - less so, because it directly screws with the part of the game which is the players domain - the behaviour and personality of the character. But thats just my side of the discussion on whether to include it. My core point has been that you have to have that discussion in the first place, not throw it in mid-game.



> It is in the BoVD (so rules DO exist that cover it).




optional rules. Which I expect to know about the inclusion of before they show up. And not very good rules either, since they include almost no talk of defenses. Though I believe Cook did discuss preaproval of the 'rating' of a game and the themes that would be involved by both DM and players. Which puts that suplement on my side, not the other.



> If you really can not deal with torture, ask the DM to have your PC die during torture.  Roll a new PC up.  Being captured and tortured is a chance to role play and plan escapes rather then being the target of a coup de grace.  What is the problem?




You don't get it, but thats ok. If I do not *want* to deal with torture in a game ('can not deal'? do you really think I'm some insecure punk who will roll over and accept something as good because my (non existant) masculinity is threatened? geesh...) I play in a game that does not include mechanics for torture. That is the majority of RPGs, including D&D. If someone else *wants* to include torture in a game, I expect them to introduce the story element and the mechanics at the outset. And if those mechanics are reasonable, and if the plot element is one I know about when designing my character, guess what? *its OK.* I am not objecting to any game which includes that story element, I explicitly said that it was inappropriate to throw it into an ongoing standard game with no discussion. Which, IIRC, was what Monte Cook said in his discussion of using the optional rules in the BoVD. 



> If you do not want to deal with torture - play in a game that does not include that in its genre.  As to dnd not having torture in the game - uh, dungeons is in the name.  Not just the S&M type either.  Grind.




Clever, but clever has little to do with correct. The game does not include a lot of elements of reality, or a lot of elements of genre fiction. One of the elements that is not included in the game is torture. To include it is a rules change. A rules change compatible with some parts of the base genre? Who gives a flying you know what in a rolling donut? I am playing in a game, not a random selection from a broad genre. I play a game which does not include torture in the rules. And that is all I reasonably need to do to not randomly encounter torture involving my character. If you want to play in a game that includes the possibility of torture, you have the upfront discussion at the start of the campaign. Simple, really.

Kahuna Burger


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## Ozmar (Apr 20, 2004)

I agree with many of Kahuna Burger's points. And it seems clear (as many have pointed out) that the players in question are not concerned with role-playing consequences of undergoing torture. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like they are squeamish, as they asked for more description when the DM tried to skip over the lurid details.

That being said, I thought I'd offer some suggestions based on the mechanics of the game. Here's some ideas about how to torture *players* through their characters:

*Bestow Curse* - use this on them 8 times (-6 to all abilities, -4 to checks, and 50% chance of acting each round) and then let them loose at the bottom of a nasty dungeon.

*Binding* - use the minimus containment or metamorphosis features and put them into a bottle to live for eternity.

*Blindness/Deafness* is permanent.

*Clones* are great b/c when the clone is grown, if they die, they go back to the clone. Put the clone in an unfriendly place. You could also modify the clone so its less than ideal. Maybe you could damage it so it has significantly reduced physical stats, or you could modify it so it has an undesirable template, or is a modified race or creature.

*Baleful Polymorph* - turn them into small animals and set them free in the wild.

*Dominate Person/Monster* could be used to make them do things they don't want. Such as talk. So they tell all their secrets, and then dominate them to go clean out a rival's dungeon - but they have to fight naked or something like that. Make sure the BBEG monitors them and uses the domination to make sure they don't ask anyone to dispel the effect until he's bored and done with them.

*Enervation/Energy Drain* - drain them repeatedly until they are all level 1.

*Feeblemind* is permanent. Leave them in the local insane asylum for 30 years...

*Flesh to Stone* is permanent. Next campaign can begin with the dedication ceremony of new statuary commemorating the lost heros of the city.

Use a *magic jar*-like effect to move their souls to new, weak bodies, and then have their old bodies destroyed, or given to minions to use in various schemes.

You might rule that repeated use of *modify memory* can remove knowledge of feats, skills or even spells.

*Geas* can make them go do something they don't want to do, such as fight dragons naked. BBEG always have some enemies. Maybe two villains have an ongoing game of sending crippled (multiple curses) and dominated heroes to attack each other?

*Reduce (or Enlarge) Person* can be made permanent with permanancy.

*Polymorph Any Object* can permanently make them into unfortunate shapes. Think of some things that are brutish and uncomfortable, such as kobolds, otyugh, skunks or pigs.

*Arcane Mark* and *Instant Summons* is a mean trick to use on their equipment: Mark all their stuff invisibly, and if they ever escape and recover it, then use the instant summons to steal their equipment back later.

Torture can bring them down to low hit points, and then they are susceptable to power words, such as *PW Blind*.

Destroying their equipment is also mean. *Mord's Disjunction* works well, as does simply giving it away to minions who scatter across the world on various missions.

*Insanity* is permanent. Force them to struggle through a dungeon under the effects of this spell.

*Raise Dead* - this gives them a choice. If they are unwilling, then they're dead: make a new character. If they are willing, then they lose a level. The PC doesn't know _who_ is trying to raise them. First, torture them to death. Then say that after an eternity in a timeless limbo of afterlife, they feel drawn to return. Ask them if they are unwilling? If they are, then they can't return and make new characters. If they are willing, then they are raised and find that they are still captives! They lose a level! Repeat.

*Reincarnation* - this is just as good as raise dead, plus more cost effective for the bad guy, and has a bonus that they come back in a new form, which may not be pleasing. The PC shouldn't know whether they are being targeted by reincarnation or raise dead before deciding if they are unwilling.

*Animate Dead* - after killing them, turn their bodies into zombies and have them go clean the latrines.

Hope this helps!
Ozmar the Evil DM


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## jessemock (Apr 20, 2004)

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> So I have to go shock-value. It's the only way that I believe I can engrave deep feelings of hatred into the players, as well as add to the atmosphere to the world. I'm a fan of Japanese films, which glorify violence like no other (these guys have NO taboos   ). I want to make their skin crawl. Then make them laugh nervously. Then make them try to supress their gag reflex.




It's almost pointless to make suggestions, because torture is so prevalent.  Making someone gag is as easy as reading any report on human rights abuses.  Or the newspaper.

Look up what's going on in Congo or Uzbekistan right now--that should take care of business for a while.

On the other hand, one of the most effective means of torture involves almost no physical harm whatsoever:  sensory deprivation.  From what I understand, no one has ever been able to resist this method.


As to game-mechanical reinforcement of torture (though I'm not sure you're asking for this), what's wrong with establishing the PCs as psychologically 'broken' with regard to their torturers?  The PCs didn't take the opportunity to go after those who tortured them?  Interpret it differently:  they don't dare.  Impose serious penalties whenever they face these people; they've become owned in a way.


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## Ozmar (Apr 20, 2004)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> Mark of Justice. Lots and lots of Marks of Justice. Marks for attacking people, marks for defending people, marks for being nice, marks for being happy, marks for squishing small bugs, marks for huggling tiny kittens. Marks for every possible way marks can be removed, lots and lots of them...



Oooh! I missed that one. 

If I was the player, I'd just suck up the effects and seek to get the curses removed. How would the BBEG prevent this? Maybe a geas to avoid seeking a cure?

Just wanted to add that most of the ideas I suggested can be repaired, healed or removed through the use of other spells in the game. The point, I am thinking, is to make sure the players are uncomfortable enough that they learn to hate the BBEG and seek revenge (while still having fun, of course).

Ozmar the Kinder, Gentler DM


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## Kahuna Burger (Apr 20, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> I think you'll find that several of the suggestions, mine included, were discussing how to use the currently existing core rules to simulate torture.  I can see your point regarding DMs that suddenly pull an 'oh, and there are pain rules now', but there were plenty of suggestions about other forms of torture that require no additional mechanics.




several? perhaps, but not the majority. And aside from stat drains, and roleplaying issues, the after effects suggested (phobias, disfigurement, Cha damage from scarring, reset bones at odd angles) are largely alternate rules. More importanly, the suggestion that any of this have a psychological effect on the character ('breaking them' as it were) is completely outside the rules. A short and possibly sincere subthread on actually inflicting discomfort on the player as part of the dynamic was just out there.    Even your suggestion that the DM make sense motive rolls for the players to introduce mistrust is a house rule - interactions between players are handled via roleplaying, and if the interaction is a LACK of a lie, there is no justification for the DM trying to artificially create a lack of trust.

Don't forget that the 'problem' was that the players didn't care that their characters had been tortured. But why is that a problem? They roleplay their characters, they decided that they didn't want to roleplay a psychological reaction to torture. A multipage thread on how to force players into an unpleasant aspect of roleplaying seems a little odd to me. 



> I've been in some great campaigns that boiled down to a 'bait and switch' - the players went in expecting one thing and got something completely other.




Sadly, I've never had one of those work out well, and my play style makes them even more annoying. But depending on how complete a switch you mean, it may have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 

Anyway, this side conversation really isn't going anywhere, so I'll stop dragging it off topic from torture methods and into the game dynamic aspects of using them at all.

A druid PC of mine who came from a primative village situation really hated another PC and used to fantasize about using judicious healing to cut off his arms and legs and hanging him up in the square for all the little kids to practice archery on... From a storytelling standpoint, if you're going to have magic or super tech, the Prometheus theme is my favorite.

In terms of sexual stuff, here's from the West Wing: 



Spoiler



in an episode about genocide, the word spread through the staff that in the country in question people were "sleeping in each other's houses". It was said a few times and treated with disgust and the same growing self loathing (at their lack of interference) that the casualty figures were generating. At the very end, one character finally expressed the audience's lack of understadning of the euphimism, and was told that what they were discussing was people in the same household being forced to rape each other - their daughters, sisters or mothers - in exchange for a promise of safety. The idea was so fundementally degrading that I found it hit harder than the constant casualty figures.  :\


kahuna Burger


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## Kesh (Apr 20, 2004)

Physical torture is the slowest, most inefficient method of getting compliance from someone in a magical world. Spells of various types provide better methods. Sure, _Book of Vile Darkness_ is good for some of the physical tortures. However, you probably want to look at the _Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge_ online. Yes, it's a sex supplement, but it makes a few good observations on the uses of spells for coercion.

*Illusions*: So many opportunities here. Force them to experience horrific things, or simply to watch terrible things happen. Use an illusion to force them into full sensory-deprivation. A simple _ghost sound_ made permanent can be used for sleep deprivation. They can experience a full range of physical sensations without taking a lick of real damage. And it doesn't all have to be bad... treat it like an abusive spouse situation. The prisoner is "punished" for misbehaving in some way, and rewarded with pleasurable illusions when they obey, leading to a cycle of dependence.

*Charms*: Again, lots of possibilities. A simple _suggestion_ to one PC to torture his companions can cause horrible pain for all involved. _Charm person_ and _dominate person_ simply gives you better fine control over their actions. And _modify memory_ can be horrific: implanting memories of betrayal from other PCs, or a memory that changes their opinion of a loved one; even memories of torture, or obedience to the enemy. ("Don't you remember? You work for me... you always have.")

*Others*: There are lots of inventive ways to use other spells, too. Use _polymorph other_ to turn them into something that can experience terrible misuse. You can make them feel quite helpless... especially if turned into a mouse and left in a locked room with a cat.  A combination of charms, illusions and other spells can be effective in brainwashing a subject.

Keep in mind that pleasure can be used just as effectively as pain. Addiction is a powerful thing, and can be brought about through spells, drugs or simple sexual manipulation. Remember, the idea is to gain the subject's acquiescence, whether it's for information or obedience. And there needs to be a reward for doing so, even if it's simply to make the torture stop.

The real horror is finding out what would break the PCs into obeying their torturer. In your case, it sounds like the torture didn't go to completion. So, you need to just figure out what the individual PCs would find horrible enough they never want to experience, and show how their captor was digging into that for torture.

Of course, it's possible they don't have enough character development for that. In which case, pop in a copy of the _Hellraiser_ and _Nightmare on Elm Street_ movie series, and take inspiration from there. When all else fails, go for the gross-out.


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## Ghostwind (Apr 20, 2004)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using Atlas Games' _Crime and Punishment_. It's got a very good section on rules for torture (both physical and psychological).


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## Beholder Bob (Apr 20, 2004)

Torture is not short of death, its a completely different situation...because it directly screws with the part of the game which is the players domain - the behaviour and personality of the character...My core point has been that you have to have that discussion in the first place, not throw it in mid-game.

Well, many things are not included in core.  PC pregnancy (or impregnating others).  Can it happen?  It isn’t in the rules, so unless discussed before hand everyone functions as if Ken/Barbie dolls?  Certainly not something I'm planning on in my game, do not have mechanics set-aside for it, but if it comes up, I will find or make the mechanics I need.  Same with torture.  I may have a very light hearted campaign that takes a dark turn - since I never even imagined it happening in the game, no mechanics set aside for it - does that mean it can not be implemented?  You believe so.  I'd find or make the rules to apply to situations as they occur.  Situations I think likely, I'll plan ahead and inform the players.  Then again, I started with 1st edition, so I do not think in terms of 'it ain't a listed rule, so it can not/should not happen'.  I try to let my players know the general style I'll use, keep them updated on the rules variants I use - but some situations are surprises - both to me and the players.  i.e. geez, I didn't think the bad guys would win - uh, rather then kill you all, they put you in chains and torture you.  This is reasonable and preferable to 'You all die' or 'Ha, I taught you guys a lesson.  Next time we kill you.'

As to the behavior and personality of the PC - it remains your choice.  I dislike the BoVD intimidate rules and prefer the player to choose his response.  See my posting on torture (I think in rules).  If a player chooses to be heroic - great!  I feel it is up to the player to chose his responses and role-play them - staying in character while under a terrible circumstance.

optional rules. Which I expect to know about the inclusion of before they show up.

You need optional rules.  Core dnd does not take every possible situation into consideration.  They want to publish to a wide audience - is it any wonder they skipped deviant behavior, insanity, pain, torture, etc.?  They want a nice low age for the range of users.  Does that mean these things do not exist?  Or the DM must plan for all contingencies?  Uh - no.  Do the best you can, cover the most likely, make rules as needed.

And not very good rules either, since they include almost no talk of defenses.

I dislike the rules myself and use my own.  The talk of 'no defense' is silly.  Do not get captured.  'Ha, I cast immunity to embarrassment, steel cap against castration, and Novocain before I entered the castle!  You must wait at least a month before you can break me!  What, dispel magic?!?!?!'  This is certainly not heroic (prepping for regularly defeat and torture).  The best defense is a good will and fortitude save.

...I believe Cook did discuss pre-aproval of the 'rating' of a game and the themes that would be involved by both DM and players. Which puts that suplement on my side, not the other.

Which means what to me?  Cook can approve, suggest, and publish anything he likes.  My game moves to its own drum.  The beat must be one my players and I enjoy.  He can dance to it, ignore it, or do his own groove.  It does not matter if you feel this fellow is on your side.  The question is, if the logical development for an encounter in your game should be torture, are you going to A) fade to black B) solve the situation in another (less logical way) C) ask the player if its ok to hurt his PC (oh, here is the hand out for how I'm going to do it)

You don't get it, but that’s ok. If I do not *want* to deal with torture in a game ('can not deal'? do you really think I'm some insecure punk who will roll over and accept something as good because my (non existant) masculinity is threatened? geesh...) I play in a game that does not include mechanics for torture. That is the majority of RPGs, including D&D. If someone else *wants* to include torture in a game, I expect them to introduce the story element and the mechanics at the outset. And if those mechanics are reasonable, and if the plot element is one I know about when designing my character, guess what? *its OK.* I am not objecting to any game which includes that story element, I explicitly said that it was inappropriate to throw it into an ongoing standard game with no discussion. Which, IIRC, was what Monte Cook said in his discussion of using the optional rules in the BoVD.  

1) I was not aiming to insult your masculinity.  I assumed a Kahuna Burger was male.  It is the Khuneta Burger that is female.
2) The reason torture is not in core is due to the audience target including rather young folks.
3) I do not need you to play or DM a game with torture.  I go years w/out torture raising its head in my game (well, months - but it's the players doing it to my poor kobalds!)  If, in the development of a game, it should be the logical progression - then it should happen.  Fade to black, skip details, what have you.  Simply covering your eyes/ears/what ever and saying 'not in the contract!' is juvenile.  Things can happen in game that are rather revolting.  An attack that severs an arm.  Having your eyes gouged out.  Being audited.  Now, if this is going to be a grim, gritty, gruesome game - I want to know before I start (my bard sir Stuart does not go there) - but if it is an accident of events, let it be.

Clever, but clever has little to do with correct.

Damn!   

The game does not include a lot of elements of reality, or a lot of elements of genre fiction. One of the elements that is not included in the game is torture. To include it is a rules change....If you want to play in a game that includes the possibility of torture, you have the upfront discussion at the start of the campaign. Simple, really.

Sure, the game skips a lot of reality.  If it included it all, I would need a LOT more books!  I certainly agree about genre determining what is to be expected - if I play in a super hero game - I expect the world to operate as such.  I need to know if its: 4 color, darknight grim, crack streets, or BELM environment.  Also - death is very rare in most hero environs.  If the GM is going to range far from the standard hero game (insanity, high death rates, disease,....) I WANT TO KNOW - before my feet get wet.  But in a fantasy game (generic) - torture is (to me) and accepted but highly unlikely event.  99% of my encounters with it will be in freeing victims of it from the BBEG, not being on the rack myself.  I expect to fight the guy with the black hood and the comic relief sized axe, not watch him heat coals for me.  But the distant chance of it happening to me is there.  The only time it will happen to me is if my PC gets caught.  That means defeated.  That usually means killed - so I can live with the chance to escape and the torture.  Being put in a cell and having occasional torture is a 2nd chance from the DM (beats the hell out of 'they kill you, burn your body, scatter the ashes.  Oh, I need to know what magic items you had, the main bad guy is going to take first pick').  I might escape.  I may be rescued.

Hey - my best character developments have come from dealing with situations beyond my initial plans for development - my light hearted rogue bard finding bad guys operating a concentration camp made me change him a bit - hardened him, saddened his soul.  The PC is still my PC, I decided what his reaction was, but it wasn't the base genre I had anticipated.  Of that I'm glad.

I understand your complaint/view on torture - I disagree with the degree you take it, but I empathize.  I had a brand new superhero in champions captured and raped in the 1st hour of the first time I played him.  Major uncool.  I still didn't even have a good feel for his personality when that occurred.  Now - if I'd played him long enough to know him and his persona better - and was expecting a non-4 color game, it would have been ok (not great, but ok) as an event in a game.  Same thing in dnd.  I can see torture messing with/ruining a character's development before you have a chance to develop it - but if the game you play in is dark enough to allow the possibility of torture and you have a handle on the PC's personality - you should roll with the punches and deal with it.

BB


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## drnuncheon (Apr 20, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> More importanly, the suggestion that any of this have a psychological effect on the character ('breaking them' as it were) is completely outside the rules.



  Right. The idea is to 'break' (well, not really...to scare?  To worry? To affect?) the _players_.



> Even your suggestion that the DM make sense motive rolls for the players to introduce mistrust is a house rule - interactions between players are handled via roleplaying



  IIRC, that's Charisma/Diplomacy/Intimidate checks, that specifically affect *NPC* reactions, and are denoted as such in the rules. Using an opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive for one PC to tell if the other one is lying is much the same as using d20+BAB+modifiers to see if one PC hits another.

  J


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## Kaodi (Apr 20, 2004)

*West Wing*

That comment about West Wing was very close to what I was thinking but unwilling to post, Kahuna Burger. Pure evil.


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## LostSoul (Apr 20, 2004)

I think it might work out okay if you tell the PCs that they have obviously been through torture - they have this general impression of unbearable pain and degredation - but they can't remember any of it.  Then you get the chance to use the torture session whenever you want as a plot device, not just something to freak out the players.

The first thing that springs to mind for me is a invasive parasitic fungus that slowly transforms the PC into a fungus-guy.  Over the weeks and months, he notices strange changes coming over him - pain here and there, fragile bones, thick, sooty urine, fungus growing and spreading over the skin, mushroom-like flutes appearing in his throat/under his arms/between the legs, etc.  This kind of disease has a parallel to many real diseases (such as cancer), so any player sensitive to a slow, wasting disease could be hit hard by it.


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## Crass (Apr 21, 2004)

hong said:
			
		

> ABBA. 'nuff said.




Haven't I heard YOU play ABBA at some of our campaign sessions, Hong?


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## hong (Apr 21, 2004)

Crass said:
			
		

> Haven't I heard YOU play ABBA at some of our campaign sessions, Hong?



 No fear of that! I've just got the three-CD set, The Essential Bruce Springsteen. I'd forgotten how good The Boss was. That will be on continuous play the next session, oh yes.


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## Old Gumphrey (Apr 21, 2004)

> Geas can make them go do something they don't want to do, such as fight dragons naked. BBEG always have some enemies. *Maybe two villains have an ongoing game of sending crippled (multiple curses) and dominated heroes to attack each other?*




That is simply classy. The variants on a game like this are numerous indeed.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 21, 2004)

Which brings in things like possession, a player is so weakened, reduced that they are no longer able to withstand being taken over by some evil creature, becoming a prisoner in their own mind and body.  

Other ways to torture:  
Shock Lizards & Shocking Hands  
Ooze - let us just put this small drop of gelatinous cude on you and see how long it takes...Oh, don't worry we will keep its size in check.​


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## drunkmoogle (Apr 21, 2004)

For the record, my players are sick little masochists who, deep down, want to be tortured and tormented to the end of their days  . My players were hugely dissapointed when I skipped over the topic, of which I am developing a growing interest due to this thread  . Torture is a major turn-off for me, but I want to give the audience what it wants.

With my group, Capture+Torture is always preferable to TPK. Besides, it's a great campaign hook. My PCs had adequete chance of escape and bungled on diplomacy (think an old western standoff that could've ended without a single shot).

I don't want to impose permanant stat loss; I've already screwed them over by stripping them nude and tossing their cursed, naked bodies in a dungeon as a means of escape.

Forgot who suggested it a page ago, but thanks to whoever suggested I bring back the torture as a recurring memory. Oh... I will . And I'll be ready for it...


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## jessemock (Apr 21, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> More importanly, the suggestion that any of this have a psychological effect on the character ('breaking them' as it were) is completely outside the rules.




No; it isn't at all--which is unfortunate:  I don't want to disagree with you!  I like what you're saying about taking care with the introduction of torture to a group (although I think that everything Monte Cook has to say about this topic has more to do with his effort to convince us that he can be dark, than with genuine concern about appropriateness).

But as to the notion that imposing a psychological effect on PCs is outside of the rules:  where do you find that one?  I realise that there is a stripe of player who believes that he shouldn't ever have to play any role but the one he chooses, but I don't see that as an approach demanded by the rules.


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## fourthmensch (Apr 25, 2004)

I'm not sure how applicable this is to a fantasy setting, but I remember reading about this in a psychology class and its stuck with me. It was used by the Chinese in POW camps during the Korean War. 

Put all the prisoners together. Treat them very well. Good food, courteous treatment, recreational time, and harsh punishments (usually drastic restrictions of activity, but not torture in the traditional sense of the word) for disobedience. 

Pick one prisoner at random, maybe one that may be more easily persuaded. Give him better treatment in all ways possible. Better food, special activities (games, women, whatever). Pull him away from the rest of the group for a while, then let him go back to rejoin. Keep doing this until they wonder why he is getting special treatment (this doesn't require special mechanics, I think; the suspicion of the other players will probably grow organically over time). Keep pulling the player out of the room for a chat and let the other players wonder what's going on. These tete-a-tetes with the captors need not be coercive in any way, they are only to breed suspicion. 

Have them attend classes, lectures by the BBEG on why his aims are legitimate and beneficial. Make them write essays on why they agree with the BBEG, and how their previous actions opposing him were mistaken (you could even actually make the players do this between sessions). Let them get to know the BBEG and his minions, who turn out to be well-meaning but misunderstood. When the PCs try to escape (and they will, given the lax security; maybe the captors even arrange a fortuitous lapse in security), the BBEG catches them easily. Instead of punishing them, he simply sits them all down and tells them that one of the PCs betrayed his friends (without revealing which one). This need not be true--the BBEG could be using _scrying_, _divination_, or whathaveyou; again the purpose is simply to sow suspicion. Then, after a few months or even years (game time, of course ), simply let them go, give their equipment back, and wish them well. 

It may not sound all that impressive, but this is a very powerful technique. This method actually resulted in several American POWs renouncing their American citizenship and becoming members of the Chinese communist party.

However it works out, it should drive a serious wedge between the party members and interfere with their cohesiveness (and thus making them less of a threat to the BBEG in question), and perhaps, depending on how persuasive you are, convert them into willing agents of the bad guy.


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## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

Get the Book of Vile Darkness and the Dungeon module that uses the BOVD.



			
				drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> That's where you guys come in. In your infinite creativity, I beg of you to grant me your boon of knowledge of torture in a fantasy world where healing comes easily.


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