# Character Building Challenge: Master Swordsman



## EroGaki (Dec 8, 2008)

I come to the people of EN World to assist me on this project. The goal is to make a master swordsman for a campaign I'm going to be playing in; a warrior who is deadly with a blade in his hand. The character starts out 11th level, and I rolled the following stats: 17, 15, 15, 15, 15, 13.
I can use *most* WotC books; my DM fears what he doesn't understand, and he refuses to take the time to remedy his lack of knowledge in certain areas (psionics and incarnum, mainly).

The Master Swordsman has to live up to certain guidelines:

1. He must have a high base attack bonus, and the ability to dish out a good amount of damage.
2. He must rely on skill, not armor, to defend himself. The over-dependence on armor is one of the main things that turns me off to warrior types; a fighter without any armor is basically a sitting duck, and even a unskilled commoner has a good chance of hitting him. In my mind, a master of swordplay should be capable of defending himself with skill of arms. He should be restricted to light or no armor, if possible.
3. Beyond basic attacks, he must be skilled with advanced combat maneuvers, such as disarming and tripping his opponents.
4. He should be light on his feet. The ability to balance oneself, to duck and move if necessary is a must. 
5. He must have a high amount of HP, which is required of any warrior type.
6. I would like to avoid gish-builds. I'm looking for a pure swordsman, not one who can augment himself which magic.

I hope you all can help me. I know I'm asking a lot, but I'd like to see how close the build cvan get to the mental image I have of a Master Swordsman. Thanks


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## Elethiomel (Dec 8, 2008)

What sort of weapon are you looking for? If you want a two-handed weapon you should go for a strength build, which will necessitate a lower dexterity and hence the defense problem you described. However, if you're willing to fight with two short swords, I want to suggest the following (loose) build:

Swashbuckler 3 - this gives Weapon Finesse as bonus feat and +int to damage (on top of strength for finessable weapons) Full BAB, d10 HD, maneuverability and social skills. Also gives a dodge bonus to AC. Found in Complete Warrior.

Swordsage 2 (to 4) - this gives access to stances and maneuvers, and Wisdom to AC in light armour. You should take a Shadow Hand stance and take the Shadow Blade feat, which gives you +dex to damage (instead of strength, so it stacks with the swashbuckler bonus) with Shadow Hand weapons, which includes the short sword (and also a collection of non-sword weapons) when you're in a Shadow Hand stance (all the time if you wish it). 3/4 BAB and the only place you'd lose BAB, d8 HD, lots of maneuverability skills. If your game applies multiclassing XP penalty you will want to play a human or a race with Figther as favoured class. Found in Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords).

Fighter 6 (if only 2 levels in Swordsage, less if more) - this gives you the feats required to keep up your two-weapon fighting, your trip and disarm feats (which won't be great, admittedly, without a great STR stat and a two-handed weapon, but will be better than average), and Daring Warrior from Complete Scoundrel to stack your fighter levels and Swashbuckler levels for the purposes of dodge bonus, grace bonus to reflex saves, and qualifying for fighter feats that require a certain fighter level.

Stats should be CHA 13, DEX 17, rest 15. Increase INT and DEX at 4 and 8 respectively to get your AC and damage up (and more skill points earlier, thus earlier INT increase), WIS at 12 when you get it to raise your AC another point. You should be able to afford a +4 item to DEX at level 11, making a Mithral Chain Shirt ideal for armor (if you play a human).

AC would be something like,
10 Base
+6 DEX (with +4 item)
+6 Mithral Chain Shirt +2
+3 WIS (with +2 item)
+1 Natural Armor (item)
+2 Deflection (item)
28 -- more if you spend more resources on it, naturally.

Attack and damage would be something like,
+10 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus (for free with Swordsage 1), +6 DEX, +1 (weapon) = +18
16/16/11/11 with the appropriate two-weapon feats, and,
6 DEX + 4 INT (with +2 item) +1 (Weapon) = 11
1d6+11 for each attack.

I haven't done the math on the cost of the items. I may be way off base in either direction.


If that's not your cup of tea, also look at the Warblade in the Book of Nine Swords. The class gives access to different (and fewer) maneuvers than the Swordsage, but the maneuvers it does grant access to can be used more often, and can cover the trip and disarm schticks without having to spend feats on them. Full BAB, d12 HD, a good amount of maneuverability skills.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 8, 2008)

(I didn't notice El's mention of Warblades till I was about to post this.  Still, I typed all this out, I'm not going to just NOT post it now.  )

It sounds like straight Warblade may be perfect for your idea, if the DM allows Tome of Battle (I sense he doesn't, though).  My last Warblade was a "Samurai" (as in title, not class) that was a Warblade focused primarily on Iron Heart (which has low level maneuvers for parrying and disarming) and Diamond Mind (mostly for devastating strikes, as well as Insightful Strike and Greater IS, which use your concentration check for damage instead of strength and weapon dice).  Such a build could work equally well as a Master Swordsman instead of a Samurai.

Warblades generally use light armor and have Tumble as a class skill, so no worries about needing full plate.
The class has full BAB, d12 HD, and has plenty of high-damage maneuvers.  There's also the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat for the Iron Heart discipline, which without even trying too hard can ramp up your damage.  If you DO try hard, well...it's a pretty famous feat on the wotc character optimization boards. 
Warblades also are somewhat int-based, eventually gaining intelligence to reflex saves, critical confirmation, damage against flatfooted/flanked foes, etc...  If you wanted a savvy swordsman, the class rewards a good int score as well.

Far as tripping, unfortunately Warblades do not get the Setting Sun discipline (lots of trip and throw maneuvers, think judo), but they do gat a few bonus feats, making it easier to get tripping ability from feats.  You could go with Combat Expertise (required), Improved Trip, and Curling Wave Strike (trade in your bonus attack after a trip to try and trip another foe within reach).  Or go with Combat Reflexes and work your way towards Defensive Throw, from Complete Warrior.


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## Dragonwriter (Dec 8, 2008)

I guess I'll be the one to ask this... What style are you going for with your "Master Swordsman"? Historically (and in-game) there are a wide variety of combat styles for swords. The four basics are these: Sword and shield, 2 swords, 2-handed sword, and single sword.

There are, as with all things, pros and cons to each style.

The impression I get from your writing suggests to me that you want someone more "speed and accuracy" than "chop again and again until bad guy falls down". And, in that case, I would suggest twin blades or a single blade (and maybe a buckler to go with).

For twin blades, I like the Elven Lightblade and Thinblade (both in the back of Complete Warrior). Exotic, 1d6 and 1d8 damage respectively, both have 18-20 crit threat base and can use Finesse. Swashbuckler with some Ftr thrown in (and perhaps Swordsage or Warblade, I can't comment on those. No ToB for me) would make a reasonable starting point. Maybe two levels of Rgr for TWF... I don't know...

As to feats... If you go the 2 swords route, you might take Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior) and get a Mithril Buckler with a little enhancement bonus. Shield Specialization (optional, PH2) adds a little more to your AC and Shield Ward will throw that buckler onto your Touch AC. If you don't like that, the Two-Weapon Defense feats would be an option. Of course, you need to make a full attack to get that shield bonus (I think... Away from books). Naturally, whether you go Short Swords or the Elven Blades, pick up Improved Critical. A bigger threat range is always better. It's especially fun when you have two blades with 2 or 3 attacks each full attack and they both have a threat of 15-20. It gives you a nice crit chance every round.

I would suggest going with Trip over Disarm. You never know if you will be facing creatures that rely on weapons, but you can usually figure they will have legs .


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## Starbuck_II (Dec 8, 2008)

EroGaki said:


> I come to the people of EN World to assist me on this project. The goal is to make a master swordsman for a campaign I'm going to be playing in; a warrior who is deadly with a blade in his hand. The character starts out 11th level, and I rolled the following stats: 17, 15, 15, 15, 15, 13.
> I can use *most* WotC books; my DM fears what he doesn't understand, and he refuses to take the time to remedy his lack of knowledge in certain areas (psionics and incarnum, mainly).




The Master Swordsman has to live up to certain guidelines:


> 1. He must have a high base attack bonus, and the ability to dish out a good amount of damage.



How high are we talking here?


> 2. He must rely on skill, not armor, to defend himself. The over-dependence on armor is one of the main things that turns me off to warrior types; a fighter without any armor is basically a sitting duck, and even a unskilled commoner has a good chance of hitting him. In my mind, a master of swordplay should be capable of defending himself with skill of arms. He should be restricted to light or no armor, if possible.



So Light or no armor?
This will be hard, but sure.
Swordsage is best bet.


> 3. Beyond basic attacks, he must be skilled with advanced combat maneuvers, such as disarming and tripping his opponents.



Question: is he going to be doing this every once in a while or specialized in tripping/disarm?


> 4. He should be light on his feet. The ability to balance oneself, to duck and move if necessary is a must.



Balance and tumble ranks?


> 5. He must have a high amount of HP, which is required of any warrior type.



How high?


> 6. I would like to avoid gish-builds. I'm looking for a pure swordsman, not one who can augment himself which magic.



So no spellcasters?

11th level:
Binder 7/Swordsage 4
BAB: +8/+3 (while low, it will be enough)
Saves (before mods): 6/6/9
Hp: 11d8 (only 1 less than a D10 om average)
I suggest for Stats be rearraged:
15, 15, 15, 13, 17, 15 (since wisdom will be a important stat for AC).
I suggest Stat increases to Wisdom and Con (one increases AC and the other hps)
So before magic items we get:
15, 15, 16, 13, 18, 15
Stances: 2 (1 1st and 1 up to 3rd)
Total Manuevers: 9 (6 up to 2nd, 2 up to 3rd, and 1 up to 4th), but ready only 5.
Discipline Focus: Weapon focus with chosen discipline and Wisdom to damage from strikes from a Discipline.
Wisdom to AC in light armor.
Vestiges up to 3rd (4th with Improved Binding feat)
Immune to fear and 2 Pact Augments:
 I suggest +2 insight attack rolls or Armor bonus depending on if they are too low for you.
Alternatively, 2 resist 5 to a certain energies might be helpful if fight alot of  certain energies or 1 Resist 10.
Vestiges to improve your fighting ability (I'm assuming took Improved Binding here), I left out ones that don't fit your character: You choose 1 each day (2 possible next level)
1) Agares: Earth + Air mastery, so you fight better if foe on ground and airborne foes do worse against you.
2) Andras: Smite Good or Evil, 1/5 rounds, adding usually Cha to hit and Binder level to damage. Also summon a mount 1/day. And Improved Critical.
3) Buer: Fast Healing (so you can stay in the fight longer)/immune disease and poison.
4) Eurynome: DR 2/lawful, Summon a Maul (large magic Warhammer) useable in one hand that you are proficient with.
5) Paimon: +4 Dex, Whirlwind Attack feat, Uncanny Dodge, +4 perform and Tumble checks, Weapon Finesse with Rapoer/Short sword, Dance of Death (can move by enemies and strike them once each) 1/5 rounds.

Manuevers ideas: (I mark what school beforethe manuver)
1) Set-Mighty Throw/ Devastating Throw (acts like a trip, no provoke) 
2) Set-Baffling Defense
3) Stone Dragon-Charging Minotuar: it acts like bull rush + damages foe.
4) Stone Dragon-Mountain Hammer: ignore DR/Hardness, +2d6 damage
5) Tiger-Sudden Jump- Jump as swift action (better getting into the battle maybe?)
6) Diamond-Sapphire Nightmare Blade: Concentration check vs opponent's AC, succeed they are flat foot against attack +1d6 damage. Still roll attack roll, but this has a chance to make it easier to hit.
7) Diamond-Emerald Razor: Make a touch attack with melee weapon instead of melee attack to deal damage (makes it a whole lot easier to hit).
8) Feigned Opening: You let your self look open to attack in order to trap the foe.
9) Ruby Nightmare Blade: Concentration check vs opponent's AC, succeed melee attack deals double damage. Still roll attack roll, but this has a chance to make it easier to kill foe. If fail check, deal only normal damage with -2 penalty to hit.


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## Corsair (Dec 8, 2008)

I agree, either swordsage or warblade is the way to go.  (Perhaps a mixture of both)


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## Runestar (Dec 9, 2008)

There is this setting sun stance which lets you make a 5-ft move when you are attacked. So unless your opponent has extra reach, this means that you can never get hit by melee attacks (because you will have moved out of range before before his attack resolves). Might fulfill the "relies on skill to defend himself" bit.

Your image of a master swordsman is still fairly vague. Can you be more specific? Like what sort of weapon would you have him wield? How would he fight?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2008)

Runestar said:


> There is this setting sun stance which lets you make a 5-ft move when you are attacked. So unless your opponent has extra reach, this means that you can never get hit by melee attacks (because you will have moved out of range before before his attack resolves).




The opponent still has a 5 ft step of his own, so you'd need two step backs in general.  Problem is, the free 5 ft steps burn up AoO's, so doing this requires Combat Reflexes in order to be viable even for a duelist character, never mind escaping several attackers.  Also, it is level 5, so you couldn't obtain it until level 9+, which might be an issue.  Other than that, yeah it's a great stance for a graceful swordsman.  I REALLY wish there was a Warblade type class that got IH, DM, and SS disciplines together to really load up on the "skilled swordsman" maneuvers and stances.

I still think Iron Heart and Diamond Mind is just as good a way to go, and you get full BAB from Warblade.  Stances would likely be mostly Diamond Mind.  The initial stance at level 1 gives you +2 AC against a single foe and -2 against any others.  You can always choose to have no stance if this becomes a problem and enter it once enemy numbers have dwindled.  The next stance, Pearl of Black Doubt, gives you +2 dodge AC (cumulative) for every time you are missed by an attack (and resets each round), and would serve a similar purpose to the stance Runestar mentioned.  Hearing the Air allows you some means of sensing invisible foes.  Finally, Stance of Alacrity effectively lets you use a counter as a free action once per round, so you can do more things like parry (Wall of Blades) and turn a miss into a hit (Lightning Recovery) per turn.

Again, it's a shame you can't get all 3 disciplines from a base class.  The high level Setting Sun maneuver "Fool's Strike" would be particularly fitting for a master swordsman.


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 9, 2008)

Corsair said:


> I agree, either swordsage or warblade is the way to go.  (Perhaps a mixture of both)




I second this opinion.  If Bo9S is in the mix, these classes offer so many maneuver options that they're hard to beat.

On the off chance that the OP is looking for an interesting system to design a character, check out my sig (and forgive me for self-promotion).  There you will find a product for people looking to design the character they want to play without having to mix and match classes to get the character you want.  Yes, I realize your DM likely won't go for it, but it's an interesting perspective to character building.


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## Runestar (Dec 9, 2008)

You can always use martial study to acquire cross-class maneuvers, or maybe even enter master of 9.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2008)

Runestar said:


> You can always use martial study to acquire cross-class maneuvers, or maybe even enter master of 9.




That's prohibitively expensive for the benefit, and you'd still have the same number of maneuvers readied no matter how many times you took the feat (and you can only take it 3 times by RAW anyway).  Master of Nine would work, it'd also kill the BAB even more (assuming you start as swordsage, since it's the easiest to qualify) and REALLY drain your feat choices.


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## Runestar (Dec 9, 2008)

Warblade too can enter master of 9 just fine (you just need to "waste" a feat on martial study to get the prerequisite maneuvers from 6 different schools). Their bonus feats can be used to meet part of the feat requirements. 

Splashing 2 lvs for swordsage is tempting. His stats appear good enough to support MAD, and free weapon focus makes up for the lost bab. Not to mention the extra maneuvers...

There are quite a number of ways we can approach this build. Any way to narrow the focus somewhat?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't feel like delving any deeper into ToB builds until I know he even wants to / can use the book.  

There are other ways to make a master swordsman to the OP's specifications.  I liked ToB because you can just go [base class] 20 and accomplish it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 9, 2008)

I'd favor Ftr, PsyWar, Swashbucklers or Paladins for the basis, partnered with Monk or OA Shaman (3.5 update in Dragon#318).  Using the Feat Unorthodox Flurry and equipping him with a Shortsword or Rapier. 

For PrCls, I like:

1) Kensai,  Whatever he lacks in BAB will be offset by his Kensai bonuses- especially the +8Str boost power.

2) Shiba Defender with one of the above adds a Wis bonus to Att & Defense (as well as to his AC if he has Monk levels).

3) Shou Disciple.  He would eventually get FoB with any weapon..._in armor_.

I'd favor a Dex build with a finesseable sword, and exploit the Combat Reflexes feat tree.


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## EroGaki (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone. My vague description is somewhat deliberate; I'm open to ideas about the actual weapon, whether or not to go two-weapon fighting, and the like.

I like Bo9S, but my DM has mixed feelings. He doesn't like many of the powers because they appear too wuxia. So if I use any of the material, I'm not allowed to use powers that make my character too Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.


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## Starbuck_II (Dec 9, 2008)

EroGaki said:


> Thanks for the responses so far, everyone. My vague description is somewhat deliberate; I'm open to ideas about the actual weapon, whether or not to go two-weapon fighting, and the like.
> 
> I like Bo9S, but my DM has mixed feelings. He doesn't like many of the powers because they appear too wuxia. So if I use any of the material, I'm not allowed to use powers that make my character too Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.



 My suggestions aren't wuxia unless martial arts are wuxia: I mean I've done the throwing manuvers in real life and I can't fancy my self as wiuxia (I'm not not flying like Hidden Dragon)

Stay clear of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are you'll be fine (those are the supernatural disciplines). Devoted Spirit is a little supernatural but mostly extraordinary.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 9, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> My suggestions aren't wuxia unless martial arts are wuxia: I mean I've done the throwing manuvers in real life and I can't fancy my self as wiuxia (I'm not not flying like Hidden Dragon)
> 
> Stay clear of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are you'll be fine (those are the supernatural disciplines). Devoted Spirit is a little supernatural but mostly extraordinary.




Devoted Spirit SHOULD be a lot more magical than it is.  Like...all of the healing and alignment-based stuff was made Supernatural in my games and my friends'.

But the three we've been promoting, DM, IH, and SS are fairly non-"wuxia."  The only DM stuff that enters that realm is the "mind over matter" save replacements possibly.  Iron Heart's only real quasi-magical ability is Iron Heart Surge (again, RAW is extraordinary, but probably shouldn't be.  We made it Su but with the ability to end effects that would prevent use of Su abilities normally, like AMF.)  I guess if you think any kind of large dose of instant healing is magical, Iron Heart Endurance might also cross your DM's line.  Setting Sun at lower levels is almost entirely "realistic" and really resembles judo.  Later on, it gets a bunch of abilities that are clearly over the top.  For example, Ballista Throw hurls the foe 60 ft and creates a line attack.  Apparently so fast and viscous no reflex save is allowed to those in the way.  Ghostly Defense is blatantly magical, and Tornado Throw is just ridiculous to picture.  At the high level you get them it's no big deal, but your DM may not like them.

Other non-wuxia schools would be White Raven, Tiger Claw, and maybe Stone Dragon, IMO.  I don't think they would fit your concept, though.

So, assuming you do go with Tome of Battle, how much emphasis on fighting do you want your maneuvers to have?  Swordsage is all about the maneuvers, Warblade has far less to use but gets more feats, BAB, and combat bonuses to cover him.  Both can do light armor, tumbling, balancing, etc...


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## Runestar (Dec 9, 2008)

This article might be useful, if you are seeking to emulate a particular fighting style.

Tome of Battle Fighting Styles [Archive] - Wizards Community


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## Draz (Dec 10, 2008)

Yeah ... I know I'm repeating people here, but to affirm, there are two main ways you can go with your concept:

1) Psychic Warrior/Slayer.
2) Warblade, with dips in Swordsage, Fighter, and/or Swashbuckler.

If your DM doesn't like Psionics, the first option is out.  (Even if you chose this one, you'd have to avoid certain powers that would make you feel too much like a Gish.)

Never fear, though, it's perfectly possible to make a Warblade swordsman who doesn't feel supernatural at all.

Are you planning on a Greatsword?  Longsword (or Bastard Sword) and Shield?  Rapier?  Or two-weapon (probably Short Sword)?  Any are viable, with ToB help.


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## Thanael (Dec 10, 2008)

Here are a few more oldschool builds:

You could tweak Erland's Philippe Fitzroi swashbuckler build slightly. (An 8th level  Rog/Swashbuckler/Fighter/Duelist , I have some notes on tweaking him but can't acces them now)

Elder-Basilisk's excellent Gypsy Swordmaster from the D100 NPCs thread is probably a little to weak for your goals and also relies on lesser magic. (a swashbuckler/hexblade)

Or tweak iwatt's Varadis Telamon low-magic-world fencing master build. (Uses core only, plus one feat from CW, a rog/ftr/duelist. Read it for the cool backstory.)


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