# Heroes Season [Volume] 2 (#31)---11/12/07-'Four Months Ago'



## Truth Seeker (Nov 12, 2007)

*Four Months Ago*​
*Writer*:  Tim Kring  

*Star*:  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Kristen Bell (Elle),  David Anders (Adam Monroe),  Dania Ramirez (Maya Herrera),  Jack Coleman (Mr. Bennet / HRG),  Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman),  Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Dana Davis (Monica Dawson),  James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi),  Zachary Quinto (Sylar),  Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh)   

*Recurring Role*:  Jimmy Jean-Louis (Mysterious Haitian),  Shalim Ortiz (Alejandro Herrera)   

*Guest Star*:  Nichelle Nichols (Nana Dawson)  

The events of the "missing four months" are explored. Mr. Bennet moves his family to California, while Maya and Alejandro discover they must make their way to the U.S. Meanwhile, a mysterious killer stalks the previous generation's Heroes.​


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 12, 2007)

Part of me is very much hoping this is the episode I've been waiting for.  It's been a slow build up, and I think we're going to get a lot of answers we've been waiting for.  The other part is worried that this is just another kind of backtracking, and that they are stalling for whatever reason.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 12, 2007)

They can't stall too long. They only have 4 episodes left including this one.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 12, 2007)

Well yeah, obviously we're not going to get to the true end of the season with the strike.


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## Truth Seeker (Nov 13, 2007)

Yupe, this mid-season cliffhanger was reshoot with a alternate ending.



			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Well yeah, obviously we're not going to get to the true end of the season with the strike.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 13, 2007)

Quick thoughts, as I have to run:

DL is so much better than Niki... er, Nicole.  I'd much rather have had him around this season.

I really want to know what Angela's power is... besides being awesome.  Loved her telling Heidi the same story she told Peter/Nathan.

I guess that was confirmation that Claire is at least partially immune to the Haitian's power.  I think we can all guess how HRG will survive getting shot in the head.

Elle continues to bug.  I know she's supposed to be over the top, but I think it needs to be brought down a couple of notches.

Finally, Maya was marginally interesting.  I would hate to see her power at full strength... kind of the anti-Linderman/Adam/maybe-Claire.

Peter should realize now he has the power dampening and the mind wipe abilities.  I wonder if he has Adam's immortality/healing blood as well.


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## DonTadow (Nov 13, 2007)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Yupe, this mid-season cliffhanger was reshoot with a alternate ending.



boooo!!!

Not the episode that was advertised or i hoped for.  This must be the writers way of getting back at us.  This was not what were told. I really didn't find out anything that i didn't get from the preview from last week.  I still hate the twins and welearned nothing about them. I still don't like nicky/jessica/gina whatever. Not that i'm one of those who needs major developments but i wasn't entertained all too much. Talk about a story just standing still.  

Not to say some thnings didn't happen
WE find out that jessica/nicki may just be a side effect of the powers and that there's a chance that "adam kensai monroe" might want something good. Maybe he's over that whole 400 year old betrayal.


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## Alzrius (Nov 13, 2007)

I was very hyped for this episode, but now I feel kinda let down.

Why, for heaven's sake, did the Company put Peter right next to Adam? And no sound-proofing? Their entire containment system seemed fairly flawed; they knew Peter was an empath, and Linderman knew all about D.L., so why didn't Bob know that Peter could walk through walls if he stopped taking the pills (which'd obviously be a problem after the incident with Peter wanting to leave and being denied)?

D.L.'s death was just dumb, I'm sorry. He can phase fast enough to avoid the punch to the head, but that guy put a gun to him, paused for just a moment, and then fired, and D.L. can't phase out in time? Honestly, I felt like that entire sequence was thoroughly unnecessary. Was it too much that he just died from being shot by Linderman?

There were some highlights, though. I originally thought that Adam was another empath like Peter. Now I just think he only has regeneration, albeit to a very high degree. It makes him more interesting, that he's an evil mastermind with relatively little personal power. Though this episode seemed to be trying to paint him in a very "gray" light, similar to what they did with HRG last season, leaving us confused as to whether he's really good or evil. I still think he's evil though.

Elle's character was a bit over the top, but I still really like her. She's a comic book-style villainess, after all, and they are a little over the top.

Altogether, I just kind of expected more ground-breaking revelations, but this felt exactly like what it was; a recap of events, with no greater purpose than to answer the questions we already have, while not presenting any new surprises.

I will say this though, Customs in Ireland must suck:

"And what do we have in this container?"

"Well, the shipping log says it's supposed to be a crate of iPods from New York, but Seamus said there was just some half-naked guy chained up in there."

"Hah! He's been spending a wee bit too much time at the pub again, I'd say. Just mark it and ship it."

"Rightio."


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2007)

I was a little more disturbed by their putting Peter and Adam, side-by- side, with a way to communicate.

I have no doubt that Adam was manipulating the situation with Peter; and we know that Bob will manipulate when he has to.

How is it that Peter was aware he could walk through a wall? He should  not have known. How is it that Adam could have known to be able to persuade him to try to walk through a wall - without knowing about DL?  And how does he know about that - locked up in a cage?  Too cozy.

The question is: were Adam and Bob in on Peter's manipulation together?   Was that their plan all along?

Elle and her personal violet wand was amusing I suppose, but she managed to be hot - and creepy - at the same time.


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## fba827 (Nov 13, 2007)

Elle made a statement that I don't know whether I was reading too much in to or not -- anyone who is good on the show's timeline want to chime in ...


Spoiler



She commented that she burned down her grandmother's house about X (I didn't hear the number) years ago.   IF (and a big if) we draw a couple extra lines, could she be Claire's half-sister  (same mother, different father) or cousin (Claire's real mom is a sister to one of Elle's parents).  And then Elle would have been adopted by Bob the same way HRG adopted Claire...  I know it's reading a lot into the one sentence... but the thing about 'big fire' just seemed to stick in my head.   ?



any thoughts or anyone catch that line a bit more closely than i did?


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## Alzrius (Nov 13, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She commented that she burned down her grandmother's house about X (I didn't hear the number) years ago.   IF (and a big if) we draw a couple extra lines, could she be Claire's half-sister  (same mother, different father) or cousin (Claire's real mom is a sister to one of Elle's parents).  And then Elle would have been adopted by Bob the same way HRG adopted Claire...  I know it's reading a lot into the one sentence... but the thing about 'big fire' just seemed to stick in my head.   ?






Spoiler



A cool idea, but I don't think so. While Claire would be the right age for that, it'd be Elle's mother's house, not her grandmother's. Also, there would have been something about it in the obituary Claire found (listing just her and her mother in the fire), and her mom and Nathan would have at least mentioned it. It also seems like they explained that fire as being the fault of Firemommy, anyway. Cool theory though.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 13, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> How is it that Adam could have known to be able to persuade him to try to walk through a wall - without knowing about DL?  And how does he know about that - locked up in a cage?  Too cozy.




I think Adam's knowledge can be explained by the fact that there was at least a month for Peter to tell Adam...everything. Course, doesn't say much about Peter knowing about DL's power, but hey, little things like that don't really bother me.

Overall, I liked the episode.

If anything, it just solidified to me how much I miss DL. His whole hero thing this episode was great and I'm sorry he had to die, even though we knew it was coming.


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## Brown Jenkin (Nov 13, 2007)

Well now Peter can take Sylar out in any fight he wants to.

So was Peter ever any closer to DL then when they were in the Plaza? If so then Peter should also have access to the Walker System anytime he wants. (Plus he also has transmute metals as well thanks to Bob).


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## Ed_Laprade (Nov 13, 2007)

The thing that got me was that someone (Bob?) said that there was no mention of the 'incident in the plaza'. Bull! There were cops all over the place. Therefore: There would be reporters all over the place reporting *live!* And they didn't say a thing about the atomic blast. Right, the whole city and half the state saw it, _plus_ the EMP, and there was no mention of it anywhere? Not unless the Haitian was _real_ busy!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Well now Peter can take Sylar out in any fight he wants to.
> 
> So was Peter ever any closer to DL then when they were in the Plaza? If so then Peter should also have access to the Walker System anytime he wants. (Plus he also has transmute metals as well thanks to Bob).




No. Kirby Plaza is the only time Peter is close to DL and Nikki. He uses Nikki's super strength almost immediately.  But he had no idea DL had a power or what it was. _No way does he know that._

And neither should Adam Monroe. There was nothing Peter could have told Adam Monroe that would have enlightened him on DL's power - or that Peter now had it.  Not a single thing. No way - no how.  He should not have known that he could be taken through walls with the power along with Peter either. But he did. He knew to touch Peter - _not the other way around._

Adam got _that_ info from the same place that he got the plane ticket. He got it from Bob. Oh - you missed that part in the hurly burly? Adam just happened to have a plane ticket to Montreal? What - was it a thirty year old "open ticket"?  WTF?? 

The whole thing was a set-up. Adam and Bob are working together and this has all been an elaborate set-up to manipulate Peter in to doing something he really shouldn't be doing.

Peter isn't going to save the world - he's going to doom it.

HRG was right; Mohinder was wrong.

Moreover, if Adam's blood can save Nathan - then Claire's blood can save HRG.  HRG has a date with a bullet - but he isn't going to die from it.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 13, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> No. Kirby Plaza is the only time Peter is close to DL and Nikki. He uses Nikki's super strength almost immediately.  But he had no idea DL had a power or what it was. _No way does he know that._



Peter has manifested powers before, without being sure where he got them from.  He can try to manifest powers he knows he should have, and he has also manifested powers due simply to _need_.  Monroe and Peter had plenty of time to discuss their escape plans, and they might not have cared _how_ Peter did it, only that he did . . . and that happened to be with DL's power.



> Adam got _that_ info from the same place that he got the plane ticket. He got it from Bob. Oh - you missed that part in the hurly burly? Adam just happened to have a plane ticket to Montreal? What - was it a thirty year old "open ticket"?  WTF??



We don't know what kind of resources Adam has available outside of OWI prison.  He's immortal, and has had plenty of time to build up a fortune for himself, a la Connor/Duncan Mcleod style.  And we weren't following Peter and Adam every minute since their escape, they had plenty of time to hit an ATM and purchase plane tickets.

Only time will tell (not much time, 3 episodes!!), but I don't think Bob and Adam are in cahoots.  I think Bob is sincere, but misguided.  I think Adam's vengeance against Hiro has grown to vengeance against the world.  We'll see.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 13, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> This must be the writers way of getting back at us.



Huh?  Why would the writers of Heroes need to "get back at us", the audience?  That just makes no sense.  Did we do something to the writers?

I'm sure the reshoots have everything to do with the current WGA strike, but it isn't the writer's changing things around, it's the producers doing it because the writers aren't writing any new episodes.  Has nothing to do with "getting back" at the audience.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 13, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> The thing that got me was that someone (Bob?) said that there was no mention of the 'incident in the plaza'. Bull! There were cops all over the place. Therefore: There would be reporters all over the place reporting *live!* And they didn't say a thing about the atomic blast. Right, the whole city and half the state saw it, _plus_ the EMP, and there was no mention of it anywhere? Not unless the Haitian was _real_ busy!




That may indeed be an aspect of his power but we don't know; we didn't know for a fact until tonight that The Haitian can dampen powers but we've been shown this season that abilities grow and manifest in broader ways the more you practice. 

But regarding the explosion, in an earlier Behind the Eclipse  for this season, the writers said they'll get to explaining that very fact. Patience.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Only time will tell (not much time, 3 episodes!!), but I don't think Bob and Adam are in cahoots.  I think Bob is sincere, but misguided.  I think Adam's vengeance against Hiro has grown to vengeance against the world.  We'll see.




I have no doubt on the later. It's Bob I'm wondering about.

It may be that they are not working together and he got the info telepathically from Maury and the ticket it just a plot hole. But it is very, very odd.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 13, 2007)

Hmm...  Sprint create a hero...... webisodes?!?!  I guess that explains what happened to Heroes: Origins.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I was very hyped for this episode, but now I feel kinda let down.
> 
> Why, for heaven's sake, did the Company put Peter right next to Adam? And no sound-proofing?



Plot Device



> D.L.'s death was just dumb, I'm sorry. He can phase fast enough to avoid the punch to the head, but that guy put a gun to him, paused for just a moment, and then fired, and D.L. can't phase out in time? Honestly, I felt like that entire sequence was thoroughly unnecessary. Was it too much that he just died from being shot by Linderman?



Plot device, he somehow nearly died, but then within a couple months is an active duty fireman with no prior experience and something of a checkered background. This is all so that Nikki can be responsible for his death, and give us more angst. They had to reverse the "win" of last season's finale finally having Nikki get over herself so they could retread the same ground.

This does seem to point to Jessica being a real personality rather than a souljumping sister.



> Elle's character was a bit over the top, but I still really like her. She's a comic book-style villainess, after all, and they are a little over the top.



Elle was fun enough.



> Altogether, I just kind of expected more ground-breaking revelations, but this felt exactly like what it was; a recap of events, with no greater purpose than to answer the questions we already have, while not presenting any new surprises.



I figured this episode would be that Baseline I've been waiting for. It'd explain some of the backstory and weave the disparate parts into a whole that made former plotholes make sense.

Instead, the nuclear blast is written off, so I guess we're to believe The Company can simply wipe all memory of a nuclear blast out of worldwide records. Peter/Nathan's save was just pointless and drab.

Maybe Ma Petrelli was just lying, and Nathan is a simpering fool, but why tell him they searched the water? Does that make sense on any level?

"There was a nuclear blast above the city, but no one noticed. They were busy randomly searching the water for your brother."



> I will say this though, Customs in Ireland must suck:



I wonder if they'll reveal who lied about them being iPod's to incite the robbery.

I mean, the Haitian is the only one that knew he was in there. Someone arranged to ship the container, no one having looked inside, ever.

Why did the Haitian strip Peters memory again? He deserved to forget all the dangerous powers he wields?

Oh, right, Plot Device.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> Elle made a statement that I don't know whether I was reading too much in to or not -- anyone who is good on the show's timeline want to chime in ...
> 
> She commented that she burned down her grandmother's house about X (I didn't hear the number) years ago.   IF (and a big if) we draw a couple extra lines, could she be Claire's half-sister  (same mother, different father) or cousin (Claire's real mom is a sister to one of Elle's parents).  And then Elle would have been adopted by Bob the same way HRG adopted Claire...  I know it's reading a lot into the one sentence... but the thing about 'big fire' just seemed to stick in my head.   ?
> 
> ...




Elle is 24 (IIRC) and said that was when she was 6, I think. Then 8 was when she went "inside". So, 18 years ago. I think Claire is 17ish, so the timing is probably a little off, so I'd say coincidence.

But, that said "burned her grandmothers house", doesn't mean her grandmother lived there. Claire's mom's apartment was the building of Isaac's Loft, wasn't it? (Or did they just meet on the roof?)

I'd say odds are good someone in The Company owns that building, though I'll chalk up The Resused Set as a Plot Device also.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 13, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I wonder if they'll reveal who lied about them being iPod's to incite the robbery.
> 
> I mean, the Haitian is the only one that knew he was in there. Someone arranged to ship the container, no one having looked inside, ever.
> 
> ...




Maybe because Peter was about to mess up two grand schemes (HGR's scheme to take down the company and Mrs. Patrellis own scheme to save Peter) and had to erase his memory so that he wouldn't get himself killed or recaptured by the Company.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 13, 2007)

I liked it; confirmed a number of thoughts I had.  Elle is just hot!


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 13, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> Elle made a statement that I don't know whether I was reading too much in to or not -- anyone who is good on the show's timeline want to chime in ...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...




To continue this theory.
[sblock]

Claire was an infant  when the fire happened. Elle said she was six. Claire is 17/18, Elle is 24. That is a six year difference. 

Another note that there might be a connection, in the previews we see Claire and Elle are being exchanged by Bob and HRG.[/sblock]


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 13, 2007)

Great episode.  But did anyone else feel like _this_ should've been the season 2 opener?


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## DonTadow (Nov 13, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Plot Device
> 
> 
> Plot device, he somehow nearly died, but then within a couple months is an active duty fireman with no prior experience and something of a checkered background. This is all so that Nikki can be responsible for his death, and give us more angst. They had to reverse the "win" of last season's finale finally having Nikki get over herself so they could retread the same ground.
> ...



The nuclear blast above the city is easy to explain away.  How many of us really can tell the difference between an experimental millitary plane exploding and a small nuclear bomb. ]

Considering I"m watching a show of prose, isn't everything a part of the plot or plot device?  The problem i had was this show was that the story didn't do anything for me. An extended excape scene with peter and adam would have rocked or a more drawn out fight with DL. Instead both were wiped under the rug prety easily.


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## Ruined (Nov 13, 2007)

Given all of the family ties they've pushed on us this season, has anyone theorized that D.L. may also be part of a bloodline?  If he were a descendant of Deveaux (Simone's father) having something like his dreamlike powers could make for a few more appearances by the actor.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 13, 2007)

As to the exploding Peter above New York, I remember a number of years ago a fireball moving across the east coast and it only had minor air time, explained away as a metorite.   There have been others. 

The same could be done for this.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 13, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Peter should realize now he has the power dampening and the mind wipe abilities.




That doesn't work. If the Haitian is dampening Peter's power, Peter can't ever pick it up.

I thought it was cool that the Haitian had a bit of natural whoop-ass. He man-handled Peter pretty easily hand-to-hand. If I were the Company, I'd make sure the Haitian was in the gym or the dojo every spare moment.

Hate to break ranks but I liked this episode, with the exception of DL getting punked.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 13, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Great episode.  But did anyone else feel like _this_ should've been the season 2 opener?



 I think it worked better mid season, AFTER the Kensei stuff.

Adam is just such a great character, and the reveal of him in the modern time, while expected, would have definitely been killed if done before the entire Kensei arc.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 13, 2007)

That wasn't a too bad episode... I enjoyed it well enough.

But Elle is very quickly becoming as annoying as Niki. Blech.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 13, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Peter has manifested powers before, without being sure where he got them from.  He can try to manifest powers he knows he should have, and he has also manifested powers due simply to _need_.  Monroe and Peter had plenty of time to discuss their escape plans, and they might not have cared _how_ Peter did it, only that he did . . . and that happened to be with DL's power.
> 
> We don't know what kind of resources Adam has available outside of OWI prison.  He's immortal, and has had plenty of time to build up a fortune for himself, a la Connor/Duncan Mcleod style.  And we weren't following Peter and Adam every minute since their escape, they had plenty of time to hit an ATM and purchase plane tickets.
> 
> Only time will tell (not much time, 3 episodes!!), but I don't think Bob and Adam are in cahoots.  I think Bob is sincere, but misguided.  I think Adam's vengeance against Hiro has grown to vengeance against the world.  We'll see.




An alternative explanation - put forward on the Heroes 9th Wonders Forums is that Adam has indeed had help and it IS a set-up -  but the help did not come from Bob. Adam's help comes from a traitor within the Company: Elle. She is still very much involved emotionally with Adam.

It is Elle who provides the plane ticket to Adam and otherwise tells Adam the things he needs to know in order to manipulate Peter and put his plan into motion.

I think this fits the facts better and is a simpler explanation then Bob being a mole.  Elle has already been presented as a villain and as an unstable personality. 

Occam's razor: this works.


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## Pseudonym (Nov 13, 2007)

It was good and bad, mostly good, but the one thing I wanted was an explanation of how Sylar got out of Kriby Plaza. No luck there, and to be honest it was the one thing I really wanted to see.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 13, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I was a little more disturbed by their putting Peter and Adam, side-by- side, with a way to communicate.
> 
> I have no doubt that Adam was manipulating the situation with Peter; and we know that Bob will manipulate when he has to.
> 
> ...




There's no doubt in my mind that this is all part of a larger manipulation, for what purpose I don't know.

I agree, DL's death was dumb, but even dumber, if you can fly, and you're being chased by a guy who can't, why not just fly away, instead of running through a dock full of shipping containers? You could beat Adam to Montreal, instead of being mind-wiped and shipped off to Ireland.

As for Elle, yup, creepy and hot. But not as creepy as Claire's boyfriend, or as hot as Ali Larter, who I could watch read the newspaper for an hour.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 13, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I agree, DL's death was dumb, but even dumber, if you can fly, and you're being chased by a guy who can't, why not just fly away, instead of running through a dock full of shipping containers?



Do we know the range limit of the Haitian's powers? I assumed he was blocking all of Peter's abilities.


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## Grog (Nov 13, 2007)

One thing that bugged me - Adam said that the company couldn't kill him. But we know that the Haitian can block people's powers, so they could just bring the Haitian in and then kill him.

As for the rest.... I really have to give props to Ali Larter. So far, all of Niki's personalities have been different - the way they stand, the way they move, etc. She's done a great job with the different roles.

And I agree with the people saying that the Haitian mindwiping Peter was just stupid, and only done as a plot device.


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## DonTadow (Nov 13, 2007)

Several people said Peter could have used "insert" power after the breakout. Do remember that  Peter was still under the effects of the drugs and was having a hard time trying to figure out some way of breaking out of the cell with the one power.  

Heck, if he had full control he could have teleported to montreal.


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## Grog (Nov 13, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Do we know the range limit of the Haitian's powers? I assumed he was blocking all of Peter's abilities.



Well, he didn't do the same with Nathan, who flew away when he and HRG tried to abduct him back in season 1. So it seems there's a lot of inconsistency surrounding the Haitian's power.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 13, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> One thing that bugged me - Adam said that the company couldn't kill him. But we know that the Haitian can block people's powers, so they could just bring the Haitian in and then kill him.



As far as we know, the company considers Adam to be "mutant 0" so they most likely keep him alive just to study him and test the limits of their power nullification drugs.




			
				Grog said:
			
		

> Well, he didn't do the same with Nathan, who flew away when he and HRG tried to abduct him back in season 1. So it seems there's a lot of inconsistency surrounding the Haitian's power.




Not really, remember the Haitian is loyal to Ms. Patrelli so its possible he let Nathan escape then  willingly dampened Peter's powers so he could knock Peter out then smuggle him out of New York.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 13, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> Ali Larter, who I could watch read the newspaper for an hour.




You're in luck! 

You get to watch her read her lines for an hour.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 13, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> As far as we know, the company considers Adam to be "mutant 0" so they most likely keep him alive just to study him and test the limits of their power nullification drugs.




Seeing his powers, his blood's power, can you say fountain of youth?  I mean, if it heals as it does can it also slow down the aging process?


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## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 13, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think it worked better mid season, AFTER the Kensei stuff.
> 
> Adam is just such a great character, and the reveal of him in the modern time, while expected, would have definitely been killed if done before the entire Kensei arc.




I think reversing it and revealing that Adam is Kensei would've had a similar effect on the character development.  But even so, I think you could've taken many of the other things that happened in the episode and used that to make a much more interesting opener.

In fact, what if the Haitian had only erased memories of Adam and the Company?  You could've done everything in this episode as the opener, kept the season largely in tact as-is, and then when Adam finally shows up to meet Peter in Ireland, we flash back and see how things really happened.  Just my thoughts on it anyway.

Still, Vol. 2 closing is shaping up well.  Here's to hoping that this season ends the only way it can:

Sylar tk-drilling into Maya's head, with a big ol' brain-eatin' grin on his face.


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## Mistwell (Nov 13, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Several people said Peter could have used "insert" power after the breakout. Do remember that  Peter was still under the effects of the drugs and was having a hard time trying to figure out some way of breaking out of the cell with the *one power*.
> 
> Heck, if he had full control he could have teleported to montreal.




Peter possesses the *one power*?

Cool!


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## Kaodi (Nov 13, 2007)

I have not been able to see much of Heroes this season, but perhaps the Haitian is unable to block Adam's power because Adam has had _hundreds_ of years to develop it. Perhaps it is literally too developed for the Haitian to be able to block it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 13, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Peter possesses the *one power*?
> 
> Cool!



 No no no.

Not cool.


_Woah._


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 13, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Still, Vol. 2 closing is shaping up well.  Here's to hoping that this season ends the only way it can:
> 
> Sylar tk-drilling into Maya's head, with a big ol' brain-eatin' grin on his face.



Hmm, I don't think so. Mainly because I think that would be far to powerful an ability to give to Sylar. There's a love intrest growing with Maya and Sylar. I think he will find a way to kill Alejandro and take his power so he can keep Maya close and emotionally dependant on him instead of her brother as she is now.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Nov 13, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Hmm, I don't think so. Mainly because I think that would be far to powerful an ability to give to Sylar. There's a love intrest growing with Maya and Sylar. I think he will find a way to kill Alejandro and take his power so he can keep Maya close and emotionally dependant on him instead of her brother as she is now.




Well... whatever.  One's just as good as the other.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (Nov 13, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> The nuclear blast above the city is easy to explain away.  How many of us really can tell the difference between an experimental millitary plane exploding and a small nuclear bomb. ]
> 
> Considering I"m watching a show of prose, isn't everything a part of the plot or plot device?  The problem i had was this show was that the story didn't do anything for me. An extended excape scene with peter and adam would have rocked or a more drawn out fight with DL. Instead both were wiped under the rug prety easily.



They might have downplayed the explosion, but there wouldn't have been nothing. But there's no way that they could have downplayed the EMP. It was a nuclear explosion, there *was* an EMP. People should have still been b****ing about it four months later! And no way in He!! did they cover _that_ up! 

Anyway, I think I've figured out Ma Petrelli's power. She can coax people into believing her. (Or wanting to believe her.) However, that would seem to defeat the proposition that the longer you have a power, the stronger and more versatile it becomes. 

As for "We can't kill Adam." Bah! Wrap him up in a few tons of concrete and dump him in one of the ocean deeps. Problem solved. (At least, in that it will be delayed for such a loooong time that it'll be some other civilization's problem.) 

Yeah, too many weirdly contrived, and lame, Plot Devices for me. But I do like the suggestion someone made that Elle is the one who helped Adam. And the timing for burning down Claire's mom's place is about right.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Nov 13, 2007)

As for the Haitian. We saw that he can selectively use the dampening when he wants too (Bob, Elle, and Peter in Bob's office where Peter is blocked but Elle still was able to zap his nose to wake him up). It is quite possible that when HRG had Nathan they weren't sure what Nathan's power was and the Haitian may not have had it turned on (The Ms. Patrelli loyalty is good too) and as we saw it took but a fraction of a second for Nathan to be out of range.

As for the Haitian blocking Adam so that he can be killed, that only works as long as the Haitian is nearby. As soon as Adam (or Claire, or Peter) leave the Haitian's field the healing will kick in and they will come back to life. So to kill Adam the company would have too keep the Haitian dragging Adam's dead body at all times. Better to bury Adam alive in 30 feet of concrete.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 13, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Peter possesses the *one power*?
> 
> Cool!



would that be the power to suck the complete life out of a trilogy?


----------



## Grog (Nov 13, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> As for the Haitian blocking Adam so that he can be killed, that only works as long as the Haitian is nearby. As soon as Adam (or Claire, or Peter) leave the Haitian's field the healing will kick in and they will come back to life. So to kill Adam the company would have too keep the Haitian dragging Adam's dead body at all times. Better to bury Adam alive in 30 feet of concrete.



But once Adam is dead, presumably his power would stop working. And if his regeneration would even work on his dead body and bring him back to life, all they'd have to do is kill him, then incinerate his body with the Haitian still in proximity.

Of course, your idea to bury him alive works, too.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> The nuclear blast above the city is easy to explain away.  How many of us really can tell the difference between an experimental millitary plane exploding and a small nuclear bomb.




And yet, apparently they saw NOTHING. The city WAS pretty empty that night though, so I suppose everyone was watching TV.



> Considering I"m watching a show of prose, isn't everything a part of the plot or plot device?  The problem i had was this show was that the story didn't do anything for me. An extended excape scene with peter and adam would have rocked or a more drawn out fight with DL. Instead both were wiped under the rug prety easily.




The problem is that it's being used as a Plot Device in a bad way. It's not an evolution of the story, it's just some ham-fisted device to smash the plot together. It reeks of poor writing/ plotting to me. If they can't think of any way to advance Nikki's character without saving & killing DL, then so be it.

To add, a bad Plot Device in this sense includes the lack of internal consistency for much of the powers. Hiro's time travel works only as the plot calls for it, the Haitian only blocks powers when powers need blocking. It's sloppy writing IMO.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think it worked better mid season, AFTER the Kensei stuff.
> 
> Adam is just such a great character, and the reveal of him in the modern time, while expected, would have definitely been killed if done before the entire Kensei arc.





THink of it like this:
1) Hiro meets Kensei
2) Peter meets Adam
3) Hiro redeems Kensei
4) Peter & Adam escape to save the world and split up
5) Hiro pisses off Kensei, Kensei betrays him, Hiro blows Kensei up
6) Peter & Adam remeet. Adam "It's time to save the world..."

If done well, You'd believe Adam/kensei to be a "good guy" up until the turn, then the "save the world" bit becomes a bit more ominous.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I thought it was cool that the Haitian had a bit of natural whoop-ass. He man-handled Peter pretty easily hand-to-hand. If I were the Company, I'd make sure the Haitian was in the gym or the dojo every spare moment.




They could have used a nice explanation for the Haitian rejoining the company, but heck, still no explanation for Ma Petrelli's influence with the company, so who knows. Before this episode, it made perfect sense to me that he was in hiding from the company and they tracked him to Haiti when he had the virus.

In the same way, DL dying at the plaza fit perfectly fine, IMO. Bringing him back only to kill him was just bleh.



> Hate to break ranks but I liked this episode, with the exception of DL getting punked.




I liked about 40% of the episode. Peter & Elle were fun enough, Adam was fun enough. Nikki/Geena was horrid, and the obvious plotholes and failures to answer were just too much of a drag. I still don't care about the Venezuala plotline, and the background was just bland.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> THink of it like this:
> 1) Hiro meets Kensei
> 2) Peter meets Adam
> 3) Hiro redeems Kensei
> ...



 While it would work, I don't think it would have nearly the same impact as doing the ENTIRE Kensei arc first, then leading up to where he is now. Seeing the character in both places wouldn't be terrible, but it would change how he's seen by the viewer a bit more than having one story go, then finish, then pick up in the present far after.


----------



## WayneLigon (Nov 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> To add, a bad Plot Device in this sense includes the lack of internal consistency for much of the powers. Hiro's time travel works only as the plot calls for it, the Haitian only blocks powers when powers need blocking. It's sloppy writing IMO.




These are people learning to use their abilities and - save for Peter's very brief tutelage - they have absolutely no way of knowing what they can do. They've repeatedly shown over and over again that power use is tied to emotional state - stress particularly can either activate an ability or shut it down. They've been perfectly consistant in that and most other things.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Nov 14, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> It was a nuclear explosion, there *was* an EMP.




As far as I know, it was _not_ a nuclear explosion and there was no EMP. What, exactly, was fissioning?


----------



## dravot (Nov 14, 2007)

My prediction:  Sylar gets his powers back and kills Alejandro, taking his powers.

Sylar then saves NYC from the plague, redeeming himself and proving himself to be extraordinary, though I'll bet he dies in the process.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (Nov 14, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> As far as I know, it was _not_ a nuclear explosion and there was no EMP. What, exactly, was fissioning?



Darned if I know. Where does Nathan get the energy to fly around at supersonic speed? But *they* keep saying it was an atomic explosion, and Ted killed his wife with radiation. Which, presumably, was what burned Claire and Nathan.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

dravot said:
			
		

> My prediction:  Sylar gets his powers back and kills Alejandro, taking his powers.
> 
> Sylar then saves NYC from the plague, redeeming himself and proving himself to be extraordinary, though I'll bet he dies in the process.




While it is possible that Sylar may perform a somewhat useful role  - they aren't going to kill off Zach Quinto. He's much too popular for that.

Tim Kring likes being a mover and a shaker.


----------



## Glyfair (Nov 14, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> One thing that bugged me - Adam said that the company couldn't kill him.




It seems pretty clear to me that Adam is trying to manipulate Peter.  There is no reason to feel that he wouldn't lie if it suited his purpose.  Maybe it's the truth, maybe not.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

It's worth mentioning that the Company does not _necessarily_ know all that the viewer knows.

The stick in Claire's head is not something they know about. Hell - it's not something *Claire* knew about.  She has no memory of it. 

Claire did find the glass shard in Peter's head and pulled it out to revive Peter. That's the only incident of "super-healer death" we know that the characters are aware of. And we don't know what Angela Petrelli said about about that - or to who  - or when.

It may be that Angela has kept that little gem a secret.

In the alternative, if Angela Petrelli was an ally of Linderman - and it seems pretty clear she was  - and she told only Linderman about it...  Well, Linderman was a protege of Adam and he may not have passed it on generally within the  Company.  

Just sayin' that the "secret" to killing Adam is already known to Angela Petrelli and Nathan - and probably HRG, who we can assume was told all about it by Claire .   

Problem is, the two people with the power who were actually temporarily KILLED by having a large object inserted and left in their brain don't seem to appreciate the importance of leaving the object in the brain.  Hence, Peter's wrong idea that a shot to the head would have done the trick.

All by way of saying - the Company may well have tried  --and failed --to have killed Adam many times.


----------



## Dire Bare (Nov 14, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> These are people learning to use their abilities and - save for Peter's very brief tutelage - they have absolutely no way of knowing what they can do. They've repeatedly shown over and over again that power use is tied to emotional state - stress particularly can either activate an ability or shut it down. They've been perfectly consistant in that and most other things.



I keep trying to remind this crowd every other week or so of this point, but nobody seems to want simple rationality involved . . . . let's come up with some more crazy convoluted theories and trash characters for acting human rather than like comic book superheros!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 14, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I keep trying to remind this crowd every other week or so of this point, but nobody seems to want simple rationality involved . . . . let's come up with some more crazy convoluted theories and trash characters for acting human rather than like comic book superheros!




I think the main point of dissension isn't that we want them not acting human. It's that I don't see these huge gaping plot holes and inconsistency as a feature. Hiro's power works as it will at the moment, DL can go incorporeal when the plot calls for it, rather than logically following any chain of reasoning. We're supposed to feel pressure from Isaac's paintings, even though they've already (post explosion) proven to be changed.

People heal way too quickly, Matt, DL from gun shots, Sylar from a sword through the gut. I'm willing to accept it mostly, but it gets tiresome.

Character development seems to regress so they can repeat the same stuff over and over again.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 14, 2007)

Another element to keep in mind, though not sure exactly when it occured. Adam and (er, Matt's father) link up somehow. At the least, Adam knows and influences him. A bit more and it's easy to believe Adam controls him somehow? Assuming Adam set him on the other Old Guard that is.

Also, Michelle/Candace, I forget, but was she holding Sylar for The Company or for Adam's faction?


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

> These are people learning to use their abilities and - save for Peter's very brief tutelage - they have absolutely no way of knowing what they can do. They've repeatedly shown over and over again that power use is tied to emotional state - stress particularly can either activate an ability or shut it down. They've been perfectly consistant in that and most other things.






			
				Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I keep trying to remind this crowd every other week or so of this point, but nobody seems to want simple rationality involved . . . . let's come up with some more crazy convoluted theories and trash characters for acting human rather than like comic book superheros!




To the above note on Peter I would add that Sylar is the exception by design, and Monica is also now an exception; the nature of her power and her discussions with Mohinder and Bob have revealed to her the the nature and extent of her power.  Given its ease of use, she also knows exactly how to use it.  The rest, to Monica, is simply a matter of execution.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Another element to keep in mind, though not sure exactly when it occured. Adam and (er, Matt's father) link up somehow. At the least, Adam knows and influences him. A bit more and it's easy to believe Adam controls him somehow? Assuming Adam set him on the other Old Guard that is.
> 
> Also, Michelle/Candace, I forget, but was she holding Sylar for The Company or for Adam's faction?




There is nothing to forget; the viewer does not know.  While Adam was imprisoned during the initial months of Sylar's recovery, by the time that Candace is speaking to whoever it is that she is speaking to on the phone, Adam was free.  We just don't know who was behind Gabriel Gray's recovery during the initial months. 

If it had been Bob, you would have thought the alarm bells would be ringing pretty loudly about now - but that need not necessarily be the case.

We also don't know if Sylar contracted the virus in the wild. It is entirely possible that he was exposed to the virus by accident as Molly Walker probably contracted the disease in the wild and her parents  - who Sylar had intimate contact with - may also have had it and passed it on to Sylar.

And then again, it is possible that he was deliberately given the virus during his recovery to keep him under control - and that we has put in a remote area of Mexico to keep his existence secret and further isolate him given his infection.

We just don't know.

It is likely, however, that the strain of the virus that Sylar has, given the timing of his exposure, is one that Mohinder's blood is the cure for.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Nov 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> People heal way too quickly, Matt, DL from gun shots, Sylar from a sword through the gut. I'm willing to accept it mostly, but it gets tiresome.




Its a good thing this show isn't 24, cause then the recovery rate of those injuries would really annoy you.... 

 Unfortunately, besides writers incompetence, the only real reason why the DL and Mat's recovery time was so messed up was so that Matt could actually do something during this season besides for sitting in Mohinder's apartment and worrying about popping a stitch.  DL on the other hand, should have died since that fate is more plausible then his becoming a firefighter in less then 1 month  after receiving a bullet wound in his abdominal cavity two months prior..


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> People heal way too quickly, Matt, DL from gun shots, Sylar from a sword through the gut. I'm willing to accept it mostly, but it gets tiresome.




Actually, Sylar's healing rate is entirely plausible. Multiple internal surgeries and four months later he's still pretty screwed up? That's about right. If anything, his incision should have healed by this point and it is only the later surgeries which explain why it has not.

Matt? Still plausible, as we only see him on his feet 16 weeks post injury. Not beyond the pale - but a little doubtful.  We don't know the velocity those bullets him him at. They need not have been as destructive as bullets fired from a normal gun. (In fact, the whole feat of 4 bullets being in the air at the same time when all fired from a normal semi-automatic handgun at that range puts the event into cartoon physics land.   Than again - so does telekenisis. )

DL? Bowling and training as a fireman 8 weeks after being shot in the chest? Okay - I'm with you on that one. As Ronald D. Moore would call it, that's a bit of a "TV moment"; sometimes realism must give way to the narrative of the tale.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 14, 2007)

Again, why is everyone thinking they want Adam dead?  

I think they want to make sure his blood can keep the virus at bay, that is why they want Cliare now that Adam is gone.  You don't create something that can take you out and by having the cure, you can control a hell of a lot of people.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm still thinking there are wheels within wheels here. Bob and Adam have something brewing.

Say, here's a thought, didn't electricity girl refer to someone as "daddy" on the phone? What if she's _Adam's_ daughter? After all, we know she's crazy, evil, and sadistic, there's no reason to assume she told Peter a true story.

There's a mater plan working here somewhere. We just don't know what it is yet.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 14, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> DL? Bowling and training as a fireman 8 weeks after being shot in the chest? Okay - I'm with you on that one. As Ronald D. Moore would call it, that's a bit of a "TV moment"; sometimes realism must give way to the narrative of the tale.



Come on Tupac took five bullets and smiled 

Ok maybe not smiled, but he was doing live concernts 6 months later.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 14, 2007)

More evidence toward's a bad adam, didn't bob say that "adam" helped start the company and now his "mission" is off. (or something to that).  The "mission" is off is in reference to recent events.  Four months ago adam could have still been running the company.  How else does he not only know that Peter's brother is in the hospital, but that peter's brother is still in bad condition in the hospital.  Perhaps in the mean time adam has been killing off the original heroes by manipulating them with his "curing" blood (it probably stops aging too).


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 14, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I'm still thinking there are wheels within wheels here. Bob and Adam have something brewing.
> 
> Say, here's a thought, didn't electricity girl refer to someone as "daddy" on the phone? *What if she's Adam's daughter?* After all, we know she's crazy, evil, and sadistic, there's no reason to assume she told Peter a true story.
> 
> There's a mater plan working here somewhere. We just don't know what it is yet.



A friend of mine has been pushing that theory since the first time we saw Adam in the present. It doesn't 'feel' right to me, but as of right now, it cannot be ruled out as a possibility.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Nov 14, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> More evidence toward's a bad adam, didn't bob say that "adam" helped start the company and now his "mission" is off. (or something to that).  The "mission" is off is in reference to recent events.  Four months ago adam could have still been running the company.  How else does he not only know that Peter's brother is in the hospital, but that peter's brother is still in bad condition in the hospital.  Perhaps in the mean time adam has been killing off the original heroes by manipulating them with his "curing" blood (it probably stops aging too).



 If we don't have a bad Adam after that whole scene with 'everything you hold dear, I will destroy', it'll be very screwy.  I mean, they didn't even make it clear that he successfully destroyed Yaeko after regening, so that would mean that unless he continues to be evil, he made the vow and then never carries through at all.  That would be...I don't know the right word--uncinematic, maybe?


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 14, 2007)

Although, if Adam becomes a popular character, they may decide to recon him as a genuine hero, as long as they're re-writing stuff. I would be surprised if Adam turned out NOT to be bad, but the writer's strike has thrown a lot of plot possibilities up in the air.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 14, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> If we don't have a bad Adam after that whole scene with 'everything you hold dear, I will destroy', it'll be very screwy.  I mean, they didn't even make it clear that he successfully destroyed Yaeko after regening, so that would mean that unless he continues to be evil, he made the vow and then never carries through at all.  That would be...I don't know the right word--uncinematic, maybe?




First Adam would need to know what Hiro holds dear.  I have thought that Adam may be trying to save the world, and once he runs into Hiro again he will snap.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Nov 14, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> First Adam would need to know what Hiro holds dear.  I have thought that Adam may be trying to save the world, and once he runs into Hiro again he will snap.



 He founded the company.  He knew Kaito Nakamura and almost-certainly therefore knew Hiro at a younger age (in the flashbacks, we saw Kaito bringing little Hiro along to meetings with Company folks).  He didn't strike at Hiro then because he didn't want to break the timeline in a paradox--Adam had to wait for Hiro to go to the past and meet Adam's own past self before he could start torturing present-Hiro directly because successfully killing Hiro before the jump back would be paradox and attacking directly face-to-face in the present without killing Hiro would cause Hiro to realise when he went back in time 'Holy crap--Kensei is immortal and evil!'


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 14, 2007)

Well, IF Adam is out for Heiro (which I am not sure of) Ando's days are numbered but then is the time stream, which Heiro does not want to screw with.   I am going with Adam as good, at least semi-good and Bob the bad guy.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 14, 2007)

Another thought just occurred to me. Adam was in the company with Hiro's Father. Why not take out his father when Hiro was a kid. What better way to destroy all you hold dear then to kill your father


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 14, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> He founded the company.  He knew Kaito Nakamura and almost-certainly therefore knew Hiro at a younger age (in the flashbacks, we saw Kaito bringing little Hiro along to meetings with Company folks).  He didn't strike at Hiro then because he didn't want to break the timeline in a paradox--Adam had to wait for Hiro to go to the past and meet Adam's own past self before he could start torturing present-Hiro directly because successfully killing Hiro before the jump back would be paradox and attacking directly face-to-face in the present without killing Hiro would cause Hiro to realise when he went back in time 'Holy crap--Kensei is immortal and evil!'





Yes there is that paradox. But he never said he would destroy Hiro, just every thing he held dear. He could have taken out his friends, his pets if he had any. Just done anything to make Hiro's life unhappy.


----------



## RangerWickett (Nov 14, 2007)

Hehe. I can imagine.

Hiro: "Kensei! You're alive! How?!"

Adam: "Call me Adam, my old friend. And I'm alive because I will not let myself die until all you love is destroyed."

Hiro: "No Kensei! You are hero!"

Adam: "Really? Do you remember, back when you were a boy, the turtle you had as a pet? The turtle who somehow, tragically, managed to jump off a balcony to his death?"

Hiro: "Kamehameha? . . . You killed Kamehameha?"

Adam: (smiles) "Well, I didn't want to cause a paradox, you know, but I did find ways to cause you a bit of suffering here and there. Now tell me, old boy, would a 'hero' do that?"


----------



## WayneLigon (Nov 14, 2007)

Director's blog about this episode.


----------



## WayneLigon (Nov 14, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Another thought just occurred to me. Adam was in the company with Hiro's Father. Why not take out his father when Hiro was a kid. What better way to destroy all you hold dear then to kill your father




Up until the last few months before his death, Nakamura thought of his son as an idiot so I'm guessing things were not very nice for Hiro when he was a kid. Adam probably liked that. Also, I'm thinking Adam is smart enough not to do anything at all that might interfere with Hiro coming back in time, because Hiro is the only reason Adam ever discovered his powers. 

I get the idea that even if you have an 'internal always on' power like that, until you 'discover' or something happens to force the issue, it doesn't work. So you could live your entire life and die when you had the seeds of immortality inside you unless something happened to make you aware of it.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 14, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Director's blog about this episode.



Gee, with all those people visiting the set, really surprised we have not seem them in the background!


----------



## stonegod (Nov 14, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hiro: "Kamehameha? . . . You killed Kamehameha?"



NOOOOO! 

That was brilliant.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Up until the last few months before his death, Nakamura thought of his son as an idiot so I'm guessing things were not very nice for Hiro when he was a kid. Adam probably liked that.




Perhaps.

What we also know is that Kaito Nakamura was waiting in Kirby Plaza for a_ very long time _ (4 months) in order to be there upon Hiro's return. Kaito did this in order to present to Hiro "a legacy".  He believed that presentation to be an urgent matter that simply could not wait and superceded all other concerns.

There is something that Kaito had to give to Hiro or otherwise tell him that Hiro _must_ know or have. We can only speculate what the legacy is.  It may be the disclosure of Hiro's true lineage (Kaito may not be his natural father) or some other secret or thing. It may be that Kaito was to tell Hiro that Hiro was, in fact, the real Kensei ("the wind at the back of history") and that the historical Takezo Kensei is a villain very much alive in the here and now. Or it may be something else entirely.

The delivery of that legacy was frustrated by Kaito's untimely death. I believe tha the substance of that legacy - whatever it was - will be sought by Hiro in the past. He will travel to a point in time where Kaito was alive in order to receive it.

And it is that act, I believe, which will bring Hiro face to face with the modern Adam Monroe and send Hiro off on a course to once again fight the future.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 14, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I get the idea that even if you have an 'internal always on' power like that, until you 'discover' or something happens to force the issue, it doesn't work. So you could live your entire life and die when you had the seeds of immortality inside you unless something happened to make you aware of it.




That's Highlander's immortality; there is no evidence at all to suggest that is the way it works in Heroes.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Nov 14, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Another thought just occurred to me. Adam was in the company with Hiro's Father. Why not take out his father when Hiro was a kid. What better way to destroy all you hold dear then to kill your father




Adam has been in prison 30 years. Masi Oka (Hiro) is 33 years old. The two are very close together, and Adam may never have even known of Hiro before his imprisonment. In fact, if Nakamura knew of Adam's past as Kensei, he may very well have kepts his son's secret in tact. Wait, if he knew Adam was thwarted by a guy named Hiro in the past who could travel back in time before having his son, then... then... *head implodes*


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Nov 14, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> That's Highlander's immortality; there is no evidence at all to suggest that is the way it works in Heroes.



Unless we assume that Takezo/Adam has never been injured in any way there actually is evidence that it works that way. Or at least in a way very similar.

The 'Undying' of Robert Adams _Horseclans_ novels work similarly. An Undying could live a full, normal life and die of old age. End of story. However, if that same person were to be killed in a violent manner in combat (or even murdered by their husband on their wedding night)... that somehow triggers the immortality, regenerating the fatal injury and could conceivably allow them to live forever.

Not saying that _is_ how it works in Heroes, but Kensai certainly did not seem to have any knowledge of his regenerative abilities before being drilled in the chest with an arrow.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 14, 2007)

Adam may have killed Hiro's mother (we never hear or see her ). My prediction is that we will hear about an epic battle between Hiro's dad and Adam that left Adam in prison, running the company from within.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 14, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> We also don't know if Sylar contracted the virus in the wild. It is entirely possible that he was exposed to the virus by accident as Molly Walker probably contracted the disease in the wild and her parents  - who Sylar had intimate contact with - may also have had it and passed it on to Sylar.
> 
> And then again, it is possible that he was deliberately given the virus during his recovery to keep him under control - and that we has put in a remote area of Mexico to keep his existence secret and further isolate him given his infection.




I think one of the main constraints is that this "virus" isn't very virusy. First appeared in Mohinder's sister, then a dozen years later in Molly. Then at some point, The Haitian and Sylar.

Also, I may not be a doctor, but doesn't it seem odd to inject Mohinders blood into people as a cure? I'm willing to chalk that up to Plot Device too, but usually such things would be, I dunno, refined and grown in a lab...

Next, we throw in some roachs that raise Sylar, and that powers continue to grow...

So, did Adam's control of his own body lead to a control over others? Can he cause plagues, or travel through insect brains?

Also, there was the mention of snow in miami almost being a global event, and it somehow being Adam's fault. Right?


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 14, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Actually, Sylar's healing rate is entirely plausible. Multiple internal surgeries and four months later he's still pretty screwed up? That's about right. If anything, his incision should have healed by this point and it is only the later surgeries which explain why it has not.




I think the main issue with Sylar is that for me, he was clearly dead.

Then they dragged his corpse through the sewer, to... er, somewhere.

From Somewhere, he was moved to a mexican shack to recuperate.

We also learn that he is under the effects of the "Virus" at this point, which is concurrently debilitating the Haitian, who is in much better shape.

Then he crawled across Mexico for 3 days until he found Snooze twins to ease him back into life with boring stories in a different language.

So, not only was he under such harsh conditions throughout his "recovery", but he somehow managed not to commit suicide during the long drive?

These things just reek of unbelievability.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 14, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> If we don't have a bad Adam after that whole scene with 'everything you hold dear, I will destroy', it'll be very screwy.  I mean, they didn't even make it clear that he successfully destroyed Yaeko after regening, so that would mean that unless he continues to be evil, he made the vow and then never carries through at all.  That would be...I don't know the right word--uncinematic, maybe?





I'd go with Anticlimactic assuming they don't give any real character growth on screen, and I doubt they will. This is the same series that ended an episode with Peter about to explode, Claire drawing a gun to end him and his threat... then next episode he goes "no, wait, I'm better now" and she puts the gun away and they have a nice conversation...

Do keep in mind though, that the season is half a season. The Hiro/Adam plot might not see fruition. They look to be taking The Paintings head on, and I'm of a mind that The Virus will be resolved by MiniFinale, but it's possible we won't see any more of Hiro until whenever there's another season.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 14, 2007)

I liked this episode.

A couple of points that were brought up: 
1) Nuclear Explosions & EMPs:
I don't know enough about nukes to say if there always has to be an EMP. If Peter just created a lot of radiation instead of a "classical" nuclear explosion, this might explain the lack of the electro magnetic pulse. There are definitely some differences between a real nuclear explosion and Peters explosion. (A normal nuke would probably leave a lot of radioactive material behind, but Peters explosion did not)

2) Isaacs Painting: 
It is true that we know the events depicted in his paintings can be averted. But not all of them are, and people have to do something to avoid it (and usually they do it in reaction to the paintings). Sometimes, there are still costs associated with preventing the events. (DL and Nathan getting seriously injured, the other Chearleader getting killed by Sylar instead of Claire). The paintings are still interesting, and they seem a nice way to motivate people. 

Some questions:
Why doesn't the company want Adam to use his blood to help others? Or was that just a lie he invented, and he himself refused to use the blood for the company, at least not on their terms?
Is it possible that Adam did find Hiro as a young child, and his attack on Hiro (or Hiros friends) forced the Company to remove him from his position and put him into his cell?


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## Mark (Nov 14, 2007)

I think Adam is and always will be the Company.  I think that "genetics" are the key to the show's plotting and characters and that a hero passes on their ability to an offspring if they mate with a non-hero but if two heroes mate it morphs into a new ability.  Fly boy might be Nathan's real kid.  Elle might be trailerpark woman's real kid (energy power).  I still think Angela has "the voice" (making that other voicegirl her actual child).  Claire might be Linderman's real kid, and Linderman might be Adam's real kid.  I think there is a big board in the writer's room with a bunch of family trees (like future-Hiro's timeline) that they jumbled up, with plausible explanations, and now they write stories to untangle them all.




			
				Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Hmm, I don't think so. Mainly because I think that would be far to powerful an ability to give to Sylar. There's a love intrest growing with Maya and Sylar. I think he will find a way to kill Alejandro and take his power so he can keep Maya close and emotionally dependant on him instead of her brother as she is now.





Watch Sylar eat them both, thus being able to use Maya's power and then calm himself down afterward.




			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think the main point of dissension isn't that we want them not acting human. It's that I don't see these huge gaping plot holes and inconsistency as a feature. Hiro's power works as it will at the moment, DL can go incorporeal when the plot calls for it, rather than logically following any chain of reasoning. We're supposed to feel pressure from Isaac's paintings, even though they've already (post explosion) proven to be changed.





You seem to suspect a plot device/hole when an immediate explanation is not given.


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 14, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> Watch Sylar eat them both, thus being able to use Maya's power and then calm himself down afterward.



As I said, that is far too much power to give Sylar. The ability to kill hundreds of people at a time. Think about it, Maya wiped out an entire village the first time her power manifested. Far too much power for Sylar. 

IMHO, of course. He may indeed kill both of them, but I think that would be a huge mistake for the story.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 14, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Why doesn't the company want Adam to use his blood to help others? Or was that just a lie he invented, and he himself refused to use the blood for the company, at least not on their terms?




I think they might know what his blood can do. If he is their prisoner and he is telling the truth, I certainly can't imagine they didn't experiment on him.

If I were them, I'd be looking for a way to duplicate his blood's effects so that I could rule the world with the wealth and power the ability to cure all injury and disease would give me.


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## DonTadow (Nov 15, 2007)

What if at some point regeneration can be trained to degeneration (no cross chops folks).  What if adam can break down cells as well as he can repair them.  We've seen all the other powers get exponentially better.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 15, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> 1) Nuclear Explosions & EMPs:




Ted could create an EMP blast without radiation (or at least reduced radiation), but I'd think the uncontrolled explosion would be everything.




> 2) Isaacs Painting:
> It is true that we know the events depicted in his paintings can be averted.



It's not so much as "the paintings are preventable" as "anything past the Key Event" is meaningless, sort of. But, the paintings don't really seem to sync with the events of "5 Years Later" either.



> The paintings are still interesting, and they seem a nice way to motivate people.




As I mentioned in a previous thread, I wished they'd simply used a different painter. Isaac didn't seem to be the first Prophet Painter, IIRC Lindermen had other paintings in his gallery that might be from previous.



> Some questions:
> Is it possible that Adam did find Hiro as a young child, and his attack on Hiro (or Hiros friends) forced the Company to remove him from his position and put him into his cell?




I like the idea that he killed Hiro's mom and then Sulu shoved a sword in his gut, and then they threw him in jail.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 15, 2007)

Mark said:
			
		

> I think Adam is and always will be the Company.  I think that "genetics" are the key to the show's plotting




Given the symbol, I'd almost hope it's something divine or something, rather than a simple "we're mutants" thing. Especially given how none of the families seem to share powers.






> You seem to suspect a plot device/hole when an immediate explanation is not given.




Or perhaps my constant disappointment from about the 3/4 point of first season, through most of this season has jaded me. Either way, we're talking about opinions, so it's not a big deal.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 15, 2007)

If Peter could regenerate the Haitians memory wipe thanks to Adams (and Claires?) power, maybe Adam is even better at it, and thus is totally immune to the Haitians power.
That might explain why it was impossible to kill him, even with the Haitians help. (Though I think it is still more likely that they kept him around because there was still so much to be found out about his powers).



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Given the symbol, I'd almost hope it's something divine or something, rather than a simple "we're mutants" thing. Especially given how none of the families seem to share powers.



In the Heroes timeline, the symbol appeared together with Adam - it was his chosen symbol for his Kensei identity. Maybe he _really_ is "Adam" for the purpose of superpowered heroes. 
We don't know yet how many heroes actually exist, but is it possible that they could all have the same ancestor? (Very fruitful then, this Adam guy  )



> What if at some point regeneration can be trained to degeneration (no cross chops folks). What if adam can break down cells as well as he can repair them. We've seen all the other powers get exponentially better.



What if it can be used to _mutate_? Maybe Adam found a way to use his regeneration power to mutate other people. (Which cuts down the required scope of his libido  )
Maybe the strange sequence in the DNA that looks like the "Godsend" symbol is actually Adams manipulation? 

Maybe I am getting a bit to hung up on my idea that Adam might be the original Hero, but I really like the theory. 

Maybe the superheroes are like a Cancer on the scale of humanity instead of a single human. The Hero Trait starts off as a single cell that is slightly mutated. The cell multiplies itself (Adams first children), and begins to spread through the world (adam and his children wandering the world). Instead of damaging the surrounding cells/organs, this Cancer transforms them (maybe some cancers can do that? I don't think that's normal, though), which is the next step. Now, the cancer is everywhere in the system, and the only cure (the virus) is like a chemo therapy - yes, it affects the cancer most, but the rest of the body doesn't take well to it, either. And if you're unlucky enough, it kills you (the Ashanti virus affects all humans)...


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2007)

It is also possible that Adam's blood can raise the freshly dead.     Could explain Sylar...hey maybe Lienderman (sp) will come back!


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## hafrogman (Nov 15, 2007)

You all seem very accepting of D.L.'s death.  Am I the only one that didn't see it?  I see a gun pointed to where we think he is, but he's not even on screen at the time.  I see a gunshot, and a splatter of blood.  I see a funeral, but no body.

Why dodge so much around showing an actual dead or dying D.L.?  They can't be squeamish, they've done it before.

Maybe it's just my comic book/movie no body = not dead cynicism. . .


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## DonTadow (Nov 15, 2007)

hafrogman said:
			
		

> You all seem very accepting of D.L.'s death.  Am I the only one that didn't see it?  I see a gun pointed to where we think he is, but he's not even on screen at the time.  I see a gunshot, and a splatter of blood.  I see a funeral, but no body.
> 
> Why dodge so much around showing an actual dead or dying D.L.?  They can't be squeamish, they've done it before.
> 
> Maybe it's just my comic book/movie no body = not dead cynicism. . .



I thought the same thing, there is a chance he is alive. But I can't think of a reason why they would fake his death?


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 15, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I thought the same thing, there is a chance he is alive. But I can't think of a reason why they would fake his death?




Unfortunately, I don't see him coming back soon (unless there is a necromancer power) because last season's final online comic had several panels with Wireless talking to Miccah about death (while alluding to that fact that DL had also died).  This same conversation was replayed during week 2 (?) of this season as part of one of the Heroes: Evolution websites.

As far as I could tell, having DL survive two months after last season's finally was an after thought.


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## DonTadow (Nov 15, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I don't see him coming back soon (unless there is a necromancer power) because last season's final online comic had several panels with Wireless talking to Miccah about death (while alluding to that fact that DL had also died).  This same conversation was replayed during week 2 (?) of this season as part of one of the Heroes: Evolution websites.
> 
> As far as I could tell, having DL survive two months after last season's finally was an after thought.



Thats the thing, there would have to be a great reason why dl would go with a plan to fake his death and not tell micah.


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## Felon (Nov 16, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> As I said, that is far too much power to give Sylar. The ability to kill hundreds of people at a time. Think about it, Maya wiped out an entire village the first time her power manifested. Far too much power for Sylar.
> 
> IMHO, of course. He may indeed kill both of them, but I think that would be a huge mistake for the story.



Well, giving Sylar all the powers that he had was a mistake as well, because it then took a Peter to counter him, and having one guy with all of the hero powers at his disposal is certainly lousy for story purposes. Both should be killed off or watered-down in some way.

Of course, I can see them having another showdown where Peter uses Alejandro's power to counteract Maya's.

Speaking of Maya, I have to say she incredibly attractive--she even makes the black-eye bit work for her. I'm glad her English is conveniently improving the same way Hiro's did.


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## Darkwolf71 (Nov 16, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, giving Sylar all the powers that he had was a mistake as well, because it then took a Peter to counter him, and having one guy with all of the hero powers at his disposal is certainly lousy for story purposes. Both should be killed off or watered-down in some way.



Agreed. Both should have been removed from the story line Sylar by death. Peter by death, burn-out, loss of powers, something.



> Of course, I can see them having another showdown where Peter uses Alejandro's power to counteract Maya's.



Interesting idea.



> Speaking of Maya, I have to say she incredibly attractive--she even makes the black-eye bit work for her. I'm glad her English is conveniently improving the same way Hiro's did.



Yes, yes she is. I actually find her more attractive than either Niki or Claire... well, ok. It's a close run with Claire, but still. Too bad her power and storyline were made so lame.


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## WayneLigon (Nov 16, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> (Though I think it is still more likely that they kept him around because there was still so much to be found out about his powers).




I think if I ran an organization that had very precious operatives that did dangerous feild work, I'd _never _ let go of a guy who's watered-down blood can instantly heal a man on the edge of death. They might have been trynig to find a way to use him to become immortal themselves as well.


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## Felon (Nov 16, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Yes there is that paradox. But he never said he would destroy Hiro, just every thing he held dear. He could have taken out his friends, his pets if he had any. Just done anything to make Hiro's life unhappy.



Didn't the guy who killed Sulu actually go off the roof with him?


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## Felon (Nov 17, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Adam has been in prison 30 years. Masi Oka (Hiro) is 33 years old. The two are very close together, and Adam may never have even known of Hiro before his imprisonment. In fact, if Nakamura knew of Adam's past as Kensei, he may very well have kepts his son's secret in tact. Wait, if he knew Adam was thwarted by a guy named Hiro in the past who could travel back in time before having his son, then... then... *head implodes*



Well, while I don't wish to brook Dire Bear's admonishments that excessive oversights, lapses in judgment, and other questionable plot turns can be attributed to the characters on Heroes being ordinary people (sort of a "deus ex _humana_" clause), I do want to say I think's it's a little too convenient to put Peter next door to Adam with that open vent there for them to chat through.


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## Relique du Madde (Nov 17, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, while I don't wish to brook Dire Bear's admonishments that excessive oversights, lapses in judgment, and other questionable plot turns can be attributed to the characters on Heroes being ordinary people (sort of a "deus ex _humana_" clause), I do want to say I think's it's a little too convenient to put Peter next door to Adam with that open vent there for them to chat through.




Thats not even mentioning the lack of surveillance devices within the company's 'prison.'   Lets put a super powered individual with god like powers in this cell next to another super who tried to rebel against us and lets not supervise them 24-7.  Just to make sure they don't escape we'll give them drugs using an honor system and not make sure he doesn't flush them down the toilet. 

I don't think convenient is the word to describe the total lack of intelligence that the writers decided to instill within the company.  It's almost like they are too afraid to stray from convention and create an escape scene that isn't telegraphed from the beginning of the sequence.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 17, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I think if I ran an organization that had very precious operatives that did dangerous feild work, I'd _never _ let go of a guy who's watered-down blood can instantly heal a man on the edge of death. They might have been trynig to find a way to use him to become immortal themselves as well.




I've another wild theory on the subject of Adams blood:
What if it has side effects?

Nathan seemed to have an "evil mental twin", just as Nikki did. What if this is a result of the blood transfusion (and they did the same with Nikki at some point before? Keeping in mind that she always had a connection in Linderman, and Linderman is Adams protegée)?

As I said, a wild guess, but there should be a reason why they don't use Adams healing blood more regularly...


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## Felon (Nov 20, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Didn't the guy who killed Sulu actually go off the roof with him?



Thought so...


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