# Game of Thrones 3.9 "The Rains of Castamere" (spoiler alert)



## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

Should be an interesting episode tonight.

*Edmure meets his bride as House Tully prepares to ally itself with House Frey. Meanwhile, Jon faces the toughest test of his life; Bran finds he has a new gift; and Daario and Jorah discuss strategies for taking Yunkai.* 

[video=youtube_share;69FD2bp71E4]http://youtu.be/69FD2bp71E4[/video]


[video=youtube_share;ozVcbIc5yWI]http://youtu.be/ozVcbIc5yWI[/video]


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## Blastin (Jun 3, 2013)

Is it bad that I joined Twitter today, just so I can see the reaction?


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2013)

Blastin said:


> Is it bad that I joined Twitter today, just so I can see the reaction?



Do you need to join to see it? I thought all Twitter traffic was public.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

Blastin said:


> Is it bad that I joined Twitter today, just so I can see the reaction?




I'm sure it will be subject to a few mild comments here & there.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Do you need to join to see it? I thought all Twitter traffic was public.




I think it is public, but if you follow Game of Thrones or other GoT specific websites, you'll be able to zoom right in on what you want


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2013)

Following the reaction on tumblr on the Game of Thrones tag and it seems like very few people actually knew what was coming. Total freakout.


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2013)

Interesting interview by Fairley to Huffington (DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE EPISODE):
Michelle Fairley Interview


Book spoiler speculation (A Storm of Swords end): It's interesting in that either 



Spoiler



they are milking the Cat is dead line as much as possible before the end of the next episode, or the big reveal will happen in the next season, or.. could they really cut Uncat out of the show? Is that a possible scenario? I'm trying to think what the ramifications for no Uncat would be.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2013)

What are you talking about with "



Spoiler



uncat


"?


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2013)

RangerWickett said:


> What are you talking about with "
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's the fan nickname for 



Spoiler



Lady Stoneheart


 (and again, I feel I need to add that this is spoilers for the end of A Storm of Swords, and not this episode).


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Interesting interview by Fairley to Huffington (DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE EPISODE):
> Michelle Fairley Interview
> 
> 
> ...




In the books, the reveal did not come until the epilogue of A Storm of Swords, so it could be late in Season 4?


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## Raunalyn (Jun 3, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Following the reaction on tumblr on the Game of Thrones tag and it seems like very few people actually knew what was coming. Total freakout.




I think they could have done with a bit more of foreshadowing. Like, when Dany went to the house of the undying and saw the wolf-headed king. My wife, who hasn't read the books, was completely shocked.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Jun 3, 2013)

Tumblr appears to be down so I have not been able to have my daily requirement of *schadenfreude*. The Red Wedding is my favorite part of the series, as I am a horrible person. Just think how so many other series would be improved by something similar happening, something much like the Red Wedding. A Red Wedding for the King Killer Chronicle, for Standard Action or JourneyQuest, for the Goblins Comic... well, okay, for Goblins every third strip is its own little Red Wedding. But you get my point.


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## Herschel (Jun 3, 2013)

Dumbest. Episode. Ever.

I knew something like this was coming and this seemed like the most logical point with the petty kings being such egomaniacal d-bags and sell-outs, but the way everything was handled was just ridiculous. Seriously, little surprise and a lot of irritation. 



Spoiler



Rob didn't go out fighting. Seriously, this was just stupid. He didn't grab a dagger or a club? Launch a dagger at Frey's head? They stab your wife through her baby and he's able to stand with a couple of bolts in him but the adrenalin doesn't carry him? Just stupid. 

And locking his wolf in pen? Again, moronic. The wolf should have been in his tent at least. 

Arya is stupid. I really liked her in the first season as she was growing, but now she's reverted to a whiny, stupid brat who can't see the Hound is her best chance at survival. Though had she gotten to Rob's wolf that would have at least been thematically cool. 

And WTF is up with Jon? He knocks Ygridde aside when she's clearly going to fight with him, then recognizes the wolves, knowing Bran and Riccan must be hiding out nearby, and he had Ygridde and the two wolves on his side and didn't take out the red-headed guy and left/betrayed Ygridde? Again, friggin' stupid!

And nobody from inside the silo seems to question Jon being out there alone, nor trying to get to him? 

And Sam, go back and get the stupid obsidian spearhead already. 

At least we're done with that moronic wench Cat.



The only thing missing was Tyrion in a chariot jumping over a pool of sharks with lazer beams on their heads.


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Rob didn't go out fighting. Seriously, this was just stupid. He didn't grab a dagger or a club? Launch a dagger at Frey's head? They stab your wife through her baby and he's able to stand with a couple of bolts in him but the adrenalin doesn't carry him? Just stupid.





Spoiler



First, Robb isn't some great fighter. He was a great leader. Second, he just lost his wife and his child and that pretty much took the purpose out of his life. Grief can stun you pretty well.





> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> And locking his wolf in pen? Again, moronic. The wolf should have been in his tent at least.





Spoiler



There was a reason for that in the books, but there was no explanation at all on the show. That was a blunder by the show.





> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody from inside the silo seems to question Jon being out there alone, nor trying to get to him?





Spoiler



Wasn't the only one who knew he was there Bran? And he was warging at the time and couldn't have told anyone. He only mentions Jon after the situation has happened and Jon has ridden away.


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## Lindeloef (Jun 3, 2013)

man I had goosebumps when the song this episode is named after played. And a big fat grin on top of that.

[sblock]which seems weird, as I had the opposite reaction when I first read it.[/sblock]


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## Super Pony (Jun 3, 2013)

So I've been playing catchup on Season 3, and I finally got current last night.  Episode 9 was functional in getting the job done, but it lacked some of the punch that the Red Wedding contained in the books.  In the show, we loose 



Spoiler



Cat, Rob, Grey Wind and the rob-wife-stand-in-manufactured-character-who's-name-I-completely-forget-at-the-moment


.  In the book we lose other minor characters that we have grown to enjoy for their occaisional quips and contributions 



Spoiler



(_Dacey, Smalljon, Wendel, Robin_)


, and several characters are (_at that point anyway_) presumed dead.  And through it all, there is at least an _attempt_ at fighting back 



Spoiler



(_Greatjon takes a few with him at least_)


 which served to keep me hoping that _someone_ would get away as everyone began dropping 



Spoiler



(_the Greatjon being dragged down at the end roaring was like...the final punch in the gut_).  Last night all the extra-level Stark bannermen in the hall and those camped outside just go down without so much as a clang or a wimper. And Catelyn clawing her face to ribbons was a minor thing in the book, but quite missing in the show


.


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## Lindeloef (Jun 3, 2013)

[MENTION=6669292]Super Pony[/MENTION]
Good points. Its been a while since i read this. [sblock]Maybe that's why I felt no sympathy for the Starks this time....[/sblock]


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Dumbest. Episode. Ever.
> 
> I knew something like this was coming and this seemed like the most logical point with the petty kings being such egomaniacal d-bags and sell-outs, but the way everything was handled was just ridiculous. Seriously, little surprise and a lot of irritation.
> 
> ...




1) Robb had crossbow bolts stuck in him, including 2 in his chest - it was a struggle for him just to stand up, and you expected him to leap over a table at Walder Frey?  Sure, maybe if the show was your standard cliche fantasy, he'd have been able to find that last bit of adrenalin to do it, but then Ned Stark wouldn't have been beheaded if it were standard fantasy, and Robb never would have had to go to war to avenge his father.  And, if you watched the scene, after Robb was plugged with those crossbow bolts, there was nobody around him - there were no daggers or axes to snatch.  Nobody wanted to risk getting struck with a stray crossbow bolt - all the Freys and Boltons were in the back of the room, with Robb, Catelyn, and Talisa in the middle, and Walder Frey on the other side.
2) It wasn't explained on the show, but Grey Wind was not allowed to roam free, as he had scared one of the Frey sons who fell off his horse.  So, the Freys demanded that Grey Wind be locked up in the kennels in order to even be allowed on the castle grounds.
3) Why do Bran & Rickon need to be nearby?  Last season when Theon was hunting the missing Bran & Rickon, the wolves took Theon many miles out of the way to throw him off the trail, while Jon had sent Ghost away when he climbed the wall, so Ghost is likely many leagues away heading towards Castle Black.  For all Jon knew, Bran & Rickon could be dead and those were their wolves roaming free.
4) Why is Arya stupid for not liking the Hound and begging to be with him?  The guy killed her friend Micah only a year earlier, and you expect her to play nice with him?  He was Joffrey's sworn shield and a member of Joffrey's Kingsguard - you know, the guy who ordered her father beheaded - and she should just accept his help?  Wouldn't the Brotherhood without Banners be a better chance for her - a group of dozens of men who could have protected her, instead of just one?


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## Herschel (Jun 3, 2013)

1. It's heroic to at least make the attempt and not go out like a biznitch. At least make a failed attampt at something. That was crappy writing/direction. 

2. Where the show didn't explain, which is irritating.

3. Because both wolves were there and the Warg said he heard someone in the silo. Jon could/should have killed bearded ginger then and he could have done whatever he wanted, tell Mance even whatever he wanted. 

4. Because he's saved her a couple of times now. She looked to be a very perceptive character in the first season, and that's all out teh window now.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

Top 100 tweets about last night's Game of Thrones episode:

http://io9.com/the-100-best-tweets-about-last-nights-game-of-thrones-511003444


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 3, 2013)

Herschel said:


> 1. It's heroic to at least make the attempt and not go out like a biznitch. At least make a failed attampt at something. That was crappy writing/direction.
> 
> 2. Where the show didn't explain, which is irritating.
> 
> ...




It played out somewhat like the books in that regards, though Robb's wife was not there in the book.  Robb was struck by crossbow bolts and dropped, then SmallJohn Umber turned a table over to protect Robb for more bolts.  Robb then struggled to rise in the books, but only made it to his knees.  Then, Roose Bolton stepped in & took his sword to Robb's heart, saying "Jamie Lannister sends his regards."  Not sure how breaking the cliche of that last heroic surge and following the book is bad writing/direction?  Was it bad writing that Khal Drogo went out from an infection in Season 1, then ended up being smothered by his wife's pillow in the end?  He didn't get the death worthy of a mighty khal who led 100,000 Dothraki.   Or that noble Ned Stark was beheaded and not saved at the last second, also not getting a death worthy of a noble and honest lord.  Or, maybe that Stannis Baratheon didn't go out nobly in the battle of the Blackwater - a last heroic charge into battle?

And the Orell the warg guy was trustworthy why?

Sure, the Hound saved her, but he also made it clear that he's going to sell her for ransom, not that he did it for the goodness of his heart.  So, does saving her balance out with killing her friend, standing by while her father was beheaded and selling her like a piece of meat?  I guess for you it does, but it would not for me.


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## Herschel (Jun 3, 2013)

In other news: Joffrey Baratheon's popularity just went up 14 points. 

David Bradley voted least likely to be cast as a liekeable character ever again.


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## Elodan (Jun 3, 2013)

I think the series should be rename from "A song of ice and fire" to "A dirge for the Starks."


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## MarkB (Jun 3, 2013)

The Red Wedding was just as brutal as expected, and the revelation of Jon's loyalties and his subsequent escape were tense and well played, but for me the most affecting scene was the one between Bran and Rickon.

Rickon doesn't get a lot of screen time, so seeing his determination to stay and protect his older brother was a rare gem, and their farewell was more of a tearjerker than the episode finale.


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## Joker (Jun 3, 2013)

All of this because Bran didn't listen to his mother.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 3, 2013)

LOL.  I gathered from the internet freaking that *that* episode of GoT had aired.  I came here and had it confirmed!

Makes this comic perfect:




Love "Rains of Catsamere", BTW.

- AlphaNerd Olgar


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## Lindeloef (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> In other news: Joffrey Baratheon's popularity just went up 14 points.




Actually, seeing the actors performance this season, Joffrey is my favourite Character in the show.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> In other news: Joffrey Baratheon's popularity just went up 14 points.
> 
> David Bradley voted least likely to be cast as a liekeable character ever again.




But it wasn't even his plan. This is all Tywin. 
And I still like him. He's smart and cunning. Also absolutely cold-blooded. Sure, this was a terrible thing to do, but it might still beat several more years of war and bloodshed. Too bad Joffrey is king, not Tywin. 

Also, I think the Rain of Castamere works a lot better the way it was. It is deliberely soul-crushing. You might have hoped that Arya could free the Wolf and have it at least kill some people in revenge. Same thing with Robb getting to fight back. The defeat is so complete, so final, it _really_ hurts. There is no hope here to be had, nothing to say "but he at least gave them a good fight".


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Robb was a brilliant tactician and able to inspire fierce loyalty from all around him. His mistake was in thinking that he was also a brilliant strategist when in actuality every strategic decision he ever made was wrong. He should have given command of his forces to someone else and made himself the vanguard rally point.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 4, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Robb was a brilliant tactician and able to inspire fierce loyalty from all around him. His mistake was in thinking that he was also a brilliant strategist when in actuality every strategic decision he ever made was wrong. He should have given command of his forces to someone else and made himself the vanguard rally point.




 I am not sure he made any strategic mistakes. He made only one political mistake - marrying someone he loved rather than the one he promised to marry. If he hadn't done this, the Red Wedding would have had less red and might have spelled the end of the Lannisters.


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am not sure he made any strategic mistakes.



Are you kidding? He spent his entire campaign going up and down and left and right the Riverlands. He spent all the energy his army had accomplishing nothing. The best he ever did was capturing Jaime in a feint that cost him 2000 men. He should have gone straight for Casterly Rock or straight at Kings Landing with either Stannis or Renly (and he messed that up by accepting the King in the North title).


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 4, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Are you kidding? He spent his entire campaign going up and down and left and right the Riverlands. He spent all the energy his army had accomplishing nothing. The best he ever did was capturing Jaime in a feint that cost him 2000 men. He should have gone straight for Casterly Rock or straight at Kings Landing with either Stannis or Renly (and he messed that up by accepting the King in the North title).




He should have joined with Renly, but Robb would not accept that Renly had claim over Stannis, since Renly was the younger brother.  That was probably his big mistake - the Northmen, combined with the men of the Riverlands and Highgarden would have been way too much for the Lannisters.  With so many against the Lannisters, the Vale and Dorne may have joined against them as well.


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## Herschel (Jun 4, 2013)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But it wasn't even his plan. This is all Tywin.
> And I still like him. He's smart and cunning. Also absolutely cold-blooded. Sure, this was a terrible thing to do, but it might still beat several more years of war and bloodshed. Too bad Joffrey is king, not Tywin.



 Yep, that was teh point. Joffrey isn't considered teh slimiest character at the moment. 



> Also, I think the Rain of Castamere works a lot better the way it was. It is deliberely soul-crushing. You might have hoped that Arya could free the Wolf and have it at least kill some people in revenge. Same thing with Robb getting to fight back. The defeat is so complete, so final, it _really_ hurts. There is no hope here to be had, nothing to say "but he at least gave them a good fight".




It was really dumb. If the defeat were to be that total, Robb never should have been able to get to his feet, move a bit, maybe grab a sandwich then stand there and dialog. If he only makes it to his knees, that's total defeat. It was handled poorly. It went from tragically heroic to going out like a biznitch.


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## billd91 (Jun 4, 2013)

NewJeffCT said:


> He should have joined with Renly, but Robb would not accept that Renly had claim over Stannis, since Renly was the younger brother.  That was probably his big mistake - the Northmen, combined with the men of the Riverlands and Highgarden would have been way too much for the Lannisters.  With so many against the Lannisters, the Vale and Dorne may have joined against them as well.




I doubt that would ever have been in the offing even if Robb had allied with Renly. A central crux of the stories is that with the death of King Robert Baratheon, the dissolution of the Seven Kingdoms is accelerating. The Targaryens held things together for generations via the right of conquest and hereditary legitimacy. Robert did so by being the legitimate focal point of the coalition that turfed out the degenerating Targaryens with enough authority that Targaryen loyalists saw the writing on the wall and took the knee. Then, relatively suddenly, they're faced with a dynastic succession conflict between Stannis the legitimate but largely unlikable and Joffrey the bastard backed by highly competent Lannister deviousness and money. And there are excesses of armed men in all camps (rather like the War of the Roses era). That's a recipe for a big war and parochial interests if ever I saw one.


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## billd91 (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Yep, that was teh point. Joffrey isn't considered teh slimiest character at the moment.




He's not. And as those of you who haven't read the books should be learning, he never was the slimiest character. There's much worse out there, although given another 20 years, Joffrey might learn enough to become the slimiest character...


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Oh my head, I'm laughing so hard I can't even. George made one update to his Not A Blog, and it was to promote a new book he has written. The title of the book? The Elephant in the Room. And does he talk about the latest Game of Thrones episode in the update? Of course not.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 4, 2013)

NewJeffCT said:


> He should have joined with Renly, but Robb would not accept that Renly had claim over Stannis, since Renly was the younger brother.  That was probably his big mistake - the Northmen, combined with the men of the Riverlands and Highgarden would have been way too much for the Lannisters.  With so many against the Lannisters, the Vale and Dorne may have joined against them as well.




He tried. He sent Catelyn down to meet with Renly so that he could gain an alliance. And, in the midst of negotiations, Renly was killed by Shadow-Stannis.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Jun 4, 2013)

Joker said:


> All of this because Bran didn't listen to his mother.




They all deserve to die. Petty, stupid and vein... they are all wretched. 

That said, the war would have happened anyway sooner or later. The Incest-Is-The-Best Twins would have killed King Robert sooner or later, triggering a succession war which would have roped in the North. Even if Bran had not climbed that tower that day most of what happens would have happened anyway in some manner. Had, say Ned not become the Hand and then been captured in the inevitable war - much as was Jamie - then Joffery would still have had him beheaded, against advice of everyone who is not a . Greyjoy would still have sacked Winterfell when the Starks were not home, because he know which mat they put the spare key under, and Jon would still have gone to the Wall and those events beyond the wall are not (much) influenced by the War of Five Kings in any case. Robb still thinks with his cock and so marries the wrong woman, which still gets everyone killed. 

It is not all down to Bran being a bad boy, though he is, but if you are going to be that reductionist you might as well go back to the death of Tyrion's mother. Has she lived the twins probably would never have gotten into incest, among other issues. 

I hope all the Starks die before the end, including the little children. But then I hope that of the youngest Lannister's as well. I also hope most of the incidental and secondary characters die. Like the people standing around silently in the background. I hope they die.

I do like the series more than the books, but then I dislike the books because it takes forever for George Double-R to get to the point.


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Raunalyn said:


> He tried. He sent Catelyn down to meet with Renly so that he could gain an alliance. And, in the midst of negotiations, Renly was killed by Shadow-Stannis.



If Robb hadn't taken the King in the North title and had instead been proactive (yeah right, Robb proactive, that'll be the day) and sent either of the Baratheon brothers a message straight away saying that the North is going to throw its support to their cause the Renly death wouldn't have happened. If he'd been on the side of Renly they could have moved against either Casterly Rock or Kings Landing straight away without delay, with no time for Melisandre to react. Alternatively if he'd been on the side of Stannis after Renly died they could have taken anything together. Stannis in charge with Robb on his vanguard would have been magnificent.


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## Herschel (Jun 4, 2013)

So you're saying the series should end by a comet destroying the planet. 

That would almost be appropriate.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> So you're saying the series should end by a comet destroying the planet.




Only if someone summoned the comet, deliberately or by accident. It all has to be someones fault, nothing by accident.


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## Grue (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm still a bit split on Frey's decision here on whether it hangs logically with what the character would realistically do (even after all these years since reading the Red Wedding).  GRR Martin is well aware of the 'guest right' importance throughout much of human history (the salt bond ritual with the Starks when they arrive in his hall is still practiced in some parts of the world), and that violating guest right beats out rebellion against the liege on the scale of Great Crimes.  Extreme violation of hospitality is punished by the gods and Fate if no one else.  Martin also establishes in Westeros they seem to take oaths\vows more seriously than our modern perspective of merely contractual promises... I'm pretty sure it's deliberate at this point that he makes a theme of punishing vow\oath breakers throughout the series... and the worse the violation the more they suffer.  Your oath is more important than your life. 

Anyway, not that guest right bonds were never violated but they historically are extremely rare and the infamy is long remembered in a number of cases.  It usually ends badly for the violator as well.  The same should be true in Westeros... Frey should be well aware that he's crossing a line which may doom his entire family.  Frey is a bit of a fence sitting guttersnipe but he loves his family in his own perverse way.  Another thought that should have been a forefront consideration for Walder Frey is the fact he should have considered his own swords and bannermen... they know their lord is the most honorless cur imaginable under their code of conduct.  It changes the rules of the game for them and a feudal lord normally should worry that his own men should believe their lord will uphold his end of the bargain to them. 

Additionally, I'm not sure Walder Frey's desire for revenge on Robb Stark and the promised payout (of Tully Riverrun lands IIRC) are high enough stakes to make the Red Wedding a worthwhile risk for the nominally cautious Frey.  At that point in the story, the Lannister army is pretty much decimated despite their successful defense and being propped up by Highgarden... it would be highly unlikely the Lannister's could indulge in revenge and spend the blood and treasure necessary to break the Twins after the dust settled.  Especially given the fact Lannister isn't adverse to bring houses like Tyrell back under their banner without any penalty.  Closing the Twins to Robb should have been enough to ensure Frey's protection from Lannister revenge (and possibly some Riverrun lands)... unless there is a part of the deal I'm forgetting, Walder Frey just seemed to be selling too cheaply considering his established character and what he's being asked to deliver even though part of his motivation is revenge driven.

Though on the other hand, for story purposes Robb and his mom had to die.  The Red Wedding probably is the best choice for that.  It was shocking and it broke the mold that a lot of readers sort of expect 'safe' characters.  I'm reasonably certain there is a core of 'safe' characters in the series (and who they are), Martin did shake-up the expectation that there were any with the Red Wedding.


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Walder is getting old. His family has never held much land. The Twins are important, but not that important. I think he's thinking about a legacy where he secures more for his children than just the same old castle. He has so many children that I don't think he really cares about survival that much. Just as long as there's someone in his family left standing to take control of his winnings.


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## Herschel (Jun 4, 2013)

The part of "no character is safe" is kind of cool, so long as it's handled well. My initial prediction of Stannis being the last of the 5 Kings is looking better (he survived his moment of horror), Jon & Dany (Ice & Fire), Tyrion, Arya and now I'm thinking Bran also. If Sansa pulls her head out she could be one also, and Jamie seems to be on the path of trying to become likeable, which may not be a good thing also though. 

Cersei and Margery will be interesting to watch, as will Varys and Littlefinger. Is Pycelle dead? 

Of course this leaves out some unknown brother/cousin/uncle of Dany showing up in line ahead of her, or the illegitimate Barathean somehow stepping in line to be heir after Cersei and her kids are all dead or some such. I'm assuming more main players will be coming.


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## jonesy (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Is Pycelle dead?



He was in Second Sons. Alive that is.


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## Grue (Jun 4, 2013)

Likeable and especially naive characters snuff it in Martin's world.  Sansa will likely be utterly transformed into a hardened political player if she is to survive but thus far the only thing keeping her alive has been the fact she's too valuable a prize to kill since she's is apparantly the last survivng link to forge a legitimate claim on the North.  Storywise Sansa is disposable and I'm not entirely sure Martin knows what to do with her since I think it's pretty obvious his original outline of the main plot has totally dirifted from a War of the Roses backdrop with a 'supernatural threat they're supposed to stop' to the reverse (a supernatural threat backdrop with a War of the Roses story).

Not to get into how Martin painted himself into a corner...anyway...

Jamie is doomed.  Besides the Freys, he's the biggest oathbreaker in the novels and Martin has a pretty set pattern of punishing those that violate their oaths.  Jamie however is likely safe up to the moment the last of his children are dead, the ruin of everything he loves is apparent, and he's utterly broken.  The blood of kings has divine power in Westeros and Jamie has betrayed two high kings...he's set up to suffer probably worse than Reek.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> The part of "no character is safe" is kind of cool, so long as it's handled well. My initial prediction of Stannis being the last of the 5 Kings is looking better (he survived his moment of horror), Jon & Dany (Ice & Fire), Tyrion, Arya and now I'm thinking Bran also. If Sansa pulls her head out she could be one also, and Jamie seems to be on the path of trying to become likeable, which may not be a good thing also though.
> 
> Cersei and Margery will be interesting to watch, as will Varys and Littlefinger. Is Pycelle dead?
> 
> Of course this leaves out some unknown brother/cousin/uncle of Dany showing up in line ahead of her, or the illegitimate Barathean somehow stepping in line to be heir after Cersei and her kids are all dead or some such. I'm assuming more main players will be coming.




On the show, Grand Maester Pycelle is alive.


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## jonesy (Jun 5, 2013)

A friend asked me: "Hell. When did Game of Thrones turn into Hamlet?"
I said: "Episode 1 if you're going by numbers. There were as many dead people in episode 1 as there are named characters in Hamlet. Maybe more depending on how many bodies there really are in the first scene."


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## billd91 (Jun 5, 2013)

Grue said:


> Additionally, I'm not sure Walder Frey's desire for revenge on Robb Stark and the promised payout (of Tully Riverrun lands IIRC) are high enough stakes to make the Red Wedding a worthwhile risk for the nominally cautious Frey.  At that point in the story, the Lannister army is pretty much decimated despite their successful defense and being propped up by Highgarden... it would be highly unlikely the Lannister's could indulge in revenge and spend the blood and treasure necessary to break the Twins after the dust settled.  Especially given the fact Lannister isn't adverse to bring houses like Tyrell back under their banner without any penalty.  Closing the Twins to Robb should have been enough to ensure Frey's protection from Lannister revenge (and possibly some Riverrun lands)... unless there is a part of the deal I'm forgetting, Walder Frey just seemed to be selling too cheaply considering his established character and what he's being asked to deliver even though part of his motivation is revenge driven.




I think it's reasonably credible. He breaks Stark power, neutralizes Tully, and ingratiates himself to Lannister who has money and the political power to arrange favorable marriages for the Frey brood. This is a major play for Walder. Probably his last shot at being a big mover. He may draw the opprobrium of breaking hospitality, but he did so do put paid to a family that was twice traitor to King's Landing. There's valuable spin that can be applied.


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## Grue (Jun 5, 2013)

billd91 said:


> I think it's reasonably credible. He breaks Stark power, neutralizes Tully, and ingratiates himself to Lannister who has money and the political power to arrange favorable marriages for the Frey brood. This is a major play for Walder. Probably his last shot at being a big mover. He may draw the opprobrium of breaking hospitality, but he did so do put paid to a family that was twice traitor to King's Landing. There's valuable spin that can be applied.




If Walder Frey was more of a risk taker before the Red Wedding I think it would feel a bit more comfortably plausible.  I'm probably forgetting something but I don't think anyone considered the Lannister grasp on the Iron Throne stable at that point.  Walder delivers up an the last major force on the field that can threaten the Lannisters on a silver platter for ... Riverrun and maybe a few marriages.  At the cost of utterly ruining the family name for generations assuming everything goes well or the utter destruction of his family if things don't go so well.  I'm half tempted to reread the books but on reflection it feels like he's selling too cheap considering the risk\reward. 

The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting.  Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious.  Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.

Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe Walder wants that retribution. He will not be around much longer in any event as he is terribly old, so maybe on some inner level he wants his family destroyed, after he is gone. Let the world burn and all that.


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## billd91 (Jun 5, 2013)

Grue said:


> The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting.  Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious.  Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.
> 
> Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.




One thing to keep in mind is that whatever magic and gods were around, they've been gone for some time. It's only recently that there's been much of a resurgence of actual magic. Magic north of the wall, the alchemists being more productive, dragons hatching, red priests and priestesses raising revenants or killing kings. The old gods, the Seven, they haven't done squat in Walder's lifetime. But power and influence, that's real. And if nobody wants to visit the Freys anymore, that's fewer mouths to feed. There are already so many...


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## Grue (Jun 5, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> Maybe Walder wants that retribution. He will not be around much longer in any event as he is terribly old, so maybe on some inner level he wants his family destroyed, after he is gone. Let the world burn and all that.




I've seen it argued that Martin's world is intrinsically amoral and nihilistic.  That the only thing that matters is power and for the most part perverse sex.  I'm not in that camp, but the lack of superstition, as well prevailing and strongly held religious belief that feels genuine seems a bit glaring to me in a world where it should reasonably exist.

Walder with a subconscious death wish for his family is an interesting take.  If Martin intended that I'd have to put a bit more stock in the amoral and nihilistic camp, but right now I expect the novels to have a more conventional 'good' ending despite the unconventional turn or two rather than a Hamlet-esque to 'black' ending.


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## Grue (Jun 5, 2013)

billd91 said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that whatever magic and gods were around, they've been gone for some time. It's only recently that there's been much of a resurgence of actual magic. Magic north of the wall, the alchemists being more productive, dragons hatching, red priests and priestesses raising revenants or killing kings. The old gods, the Seven, they haven't done squat in Walder's lifetime. But power and influence, that's real. And if nobody wants to visit the Freys anymore, that's fewer mouths to feed. There are already so many...




Much of the population (if not the majority) of our modern world are superstitious.  Some extremely so.  And even in the fairly secularized West most people went to church every Sunday before those trends started to really shift in the 1960s IIRC.  Superstition, occultism, and other belief in magic was not uncommon in the upper classes even in the 19th and early 20th century... and it becomes more prevalent the further back you go.

The people in Westeros know dragons existed and they have a utterly ridiculously sized wall in the North, sorcerers cut off yingyangs and talk to demons...etc.  It doesn't hang well that in this quasi-medieval world where magic actually exists and the evidence that it worked on the world is evident the rulers would be so secular in outlook.  They have more reason to believe in sacred oaths that are enforced by divine punishment than we do.  I'm not saying Walder Frey wouldn't host the Red Wedding but he seems far too cautious beforehand to risk everything for the small stakes of Tully land and an off marriage or two in exchange for a permanent stigma on the family name (if nothing else).


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## Morrus (Jun 5, 2013)

Grue said:


> Much of the population (if not the majority) of our modern world are superstitious.  Some extremely so.  And even in the fairly secularized West most people went to church every Sunday before those trends started to really shift in the 1960s IIRC.  Superstition, occultism, and other belief in magic was not uncommon in the upper classes even in the 19th and early 20th century... and it becomes more prevalent the further back you go.
> 
> The people in Westeros know dragons existed and they have a utterly ridiculously sized wall in the North, sorcerers cut off yingyangs and talk to demons...etc.  It doesn't hang well that in this quasi-medieval world where magic actually exists and the evidence that it worked on the world is evident the rulers would be so secular in outlook.  They have more reason to believe in sacred oaths that are enforced by divine punishment than we do.  I'm not saying Walder Frey wouldn't host the Red Wedding but he seems far too cautious beforehand to risk everything for the small stakes of Tully land and an off marriage or two in exchange for a permanent stigma on the family name (if nothing else).




I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure I've repeatedly heard the power players (as opposed to the peasants) say that they totally believe magic and dragons existed, but that they left a generation or two ago. In fact, I thought that was largely the premise of the setting - dragons and magic and stiff existed a while back, but the last dragon was killed in living memory and magic left about out the same time. That's why Dany's dragons are a big deal.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 5, 2013)

Plus, consider that while people in power in the real world claim to adhere to certain ideologies, they toss them out the window for the sake of personal profit. When you're powerful enough, you don't think fate or the gods can hurt you.

Also, test test (because my own forum isn't working.)


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## jonesy (Jun 5, 2013)

Also don't forget the 



Spoiler



Maester's


 conspiracy. There's evidence to suggests that not only have they been actively working to hush up information about magic and magical creatures, but that they may have had something to do with the last extinction of dragons.

A Feast For Crows: 



Spoiler



(talking of Aemon) "Kill him? Sam asked, shocked. "Why?" "If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?"


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## MarkB (Jun 5, 2013)

Grue said:


> The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting.  Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious.  Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.




Well, while we're on the subject of "gods and magic are real in Westeros", don't neglect to consider the fact that we saw Stannis's Red Priestess use king's blood to place a curse upon Robb, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey. We know for a fact that the Lord of Light has real, tangible power, so when considering Walder Frey's motivations, it's reasonable to assume that he's at least partially being mystically influenced into becoming the instrument of Robb's doom, and that this influence is sufficient to overcome his caution and social restraint.


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## Grue (Jun 5, 2013)

MarkB said:


> Well, while we're on the subject of "gods and magic are real in Westeros", don't neglect to consider the fact that we saw Stannis's Red Priestess use king's blood to place a curse upon Robb, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey. We know for a fact that the Lord of Light has real, tangible power, so when considering Walder Frey's motivations, it's reasonable to assume that he's at least partially being mystically influenced into becoming the instrument of Robb's doom, and that this influence is sufficient to overcome his caution and social restraint.




<Must resist temptation to scavenge through books>  I don't remember that part but it sounds right.  And it feels a bit more realistically plausible for the setting than the lords somehow knowing that if they break the most inviolate sacred oath they don't risk extreme supernatural punishment.  

Offhand I think it was a Maester and a warlock in the House of the Undying that linked magic with the dragons but I don't think it was known outside of those circles.  Tywin Lannister would be the most likely lord to make some comment about the unreliability\uselessness\claptrap of magic but without paging through the books I'm not certain.  Still I doubt the major lords of Westeros know with any certainty magic no longer works\exists.  In any case, considering the setting, the fact fakers\petty magicians are plying their wares, and that Westeros shows no sign of ever going through it's own Age of Enlightenment to refute superstition (which actually has some truth in the world), it might just be a flaw in an otherwise fairly well imagined world. 

The Red Priestess' kings blood curse works for me.  Walder Frey just seemed like too much a fence sitter to risk such a big play for a comparitively small potatoes payout otherwise.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 5, 2013)

jonesy said:


> Also don't forget the
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Small bit of info I picked on when I re-read the books back-to-back last year.  In the first book, Mirri Maz Duur - the witch woman who supposedly was going to save Khal Drogo for Dany - told Dany and Ser Jorah that she learned her trade for several different sources, including a Maester name Marwyn...    The, Marwyn's name doesn't come up again until A Feast for Crows.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 5, 2013)

Grue said:


> If Walder Frey was more of a risk taker before the Red Wedding I think it would feel a bit more comfortably plausible.  I'm probably forgetting something but I don't think anyone considered the Lannister grasp on the Iron Throne stable at that point.  Walder delivers up an the last major force on the field that can threaten the Lannisters on a silver platter for ... Riverrun and maybe a few marriages.  At the cost of utterly ruining the family name for generations assuming everything goes well or the utter destruction of his family if things don't go so well.  I'm half tempted to reread the books but on reflection it feels like he's selling too cheap considering the risk\reward.
> 
> The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting.  Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious.  Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.
> 
> Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.




There are seven kingdoms in Westeros - the North, where Winterfell is the seat.  Even with the castle razed, it still has symbolic power and is the reason why Bolton holds on to it despite the weather in A Dance with Dragons.   Riverrun is the seat of power in the Riverlands - whoever controls it, controls that kingdom.  The Riverlands are well populated (unlike Dorne and the Stormlands), and wealthy, though were just devastated by war.  So, controlling all of the Riverlands through Riverrun is a pretty big prize.


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## Grue (Jun 6, 2013)

NewJeffCT said:


> There are seven kingdoms in Westeros - the North, where Winterfell is the seat.  Even with the castle razed, it still has symbolic power and is the reason why Bolton holds on to it despite the weather in A Dance with Dragons.   Riverrun is the seat of power in the Riverlands - whoever controls it, controls that kingdom.  The Riverlands are well populated (unlike Dorne and the Stormlands), and wealthy, though were just devastated by war.  So, controlling all of the Riverlands through Riverrun is a pretty big prize.




Heh...I sortof viewed Riverrun area in a similiar situation to the reformation era German Palatinate... once prosperous lands devastated by war that will take generations to recover.  And the Palatinate peasants didn't have to worry about a swiftly approaching winter that would last years with empty raided stocks... famine and disease in fictional Riverrun would be epic by comparison.  

Considering the wide open indefensible battlefield the riverlands are and the fact they also have a major contender for those lands installed in the form of the extremely deep pocketed Littlefinger (at Harrenhal which if I remember correctly controls the Trident and I'm pretty sure Baelish is the lord of the Riverlands, not the Freys....quick look.... yep Littlefinger is the lord of the Riverlands).  The Red Priestess kings blood curse works for me because I don't think it fits that Walder would be such a cheap sell (he gets a white elephant of devasted lands just before winter, no crown over the Riverlands and not even a marriage to one of the royal Lannister kids).


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 6, 2013)

Grue said:


> Heh...I sortof viewed Riverrun area in a similiar situation to the reformation era German Palatinate... once prosperous lands devastated by war that will take generations to recover.  And the Palatinate peasants didn't have to worry about a swiftly approaching winter that would last years with empty raided stocks... famine and disease in fictional Riverrun would be epic by comparison.
> 
> Considering the wide open indefensible battlefield the riverlands are and the fact they also have a major contender for those lands installed in the form of the extremely deep pocketed Littlefinger (at Harrenhal which if I remember correctly controls the Trident and I'm pretty sure Baelish is the lord of the Riverlands, not the Freys....quick look.... yep Littlefinger is the lord of the Riverlands).  The Red Priestess kings blood curse works for me because I don't think it fits that Walder would be such a cheap sell (he gets a white elephant of devasted lands just before winter, no crown over the Riverlands and not even a marriage to one of the royal Lannister kids).




Emmon Frey, who took over lordship of Riverrun, is married to Genna Lannister, sister to Tywin Lannister, aunt to Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion.  And, yes the Riverlands are in bad shape, but they have rich, fertile grounds and the elder Lord Frey won't survive past the current winter, if it's as long as they say it will be.  Plus, it wasn't just a Lannister-Frey deal.  It was Lannister-Frey/Bolton deal.  And, Roose Bolton is now Warden of the North in place of the Starks.


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## Oryan77 (Jun 6, 2013)

Herschel said:


> The only thing missing was Tyrion in a chariot jumping over a pool of sharks with lazer beams on their heads.




I know he's a little tall to be Tyrion and there is no chariot, but maybe this will make you feel a bit better?
http://www.rpglocker.com/oryan/jump.html


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## Grue (Jun 6, 2013)

NewJeffCT said:


> Emmon Frey, who took over lordship of Riverrun, is married to Genna Lannister, sister to Tywin Lannister, aunt to Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion.  And, yes the Riverlands are in bad shape, but they have rich, fertile grounds and the elder Lord Frey won't survive past the current winter, if it's as long as they say it will be.  Plus, it wasn't just a Lannister-Frey deal.  It was Lannister-Frey/Bolton deal.  And, Roose Bolton is now Warden of the North in place of the Starks.




Yeah...a North overrun with ironborn, raided winter foodstocks and a sacked Winterfell not to mention even though the Stark bannermen get wiped at the Red Wedding if Roose manages to put the Greyjoys down he's stuck with a bunch of holds that will forever brand his family as traitors (granted his only heir is a bastard) and the reasonably intact (and notably difficult) Karstarks have a better claim to legitimacy as the paramount house in the North.  And Bolton is noted for his 'calculating caution'.

Considering the Freys do the heavy lifting at the Red Wedding I don't remember why Roose had to be part of the deal besides being married to Walda Frey (who we never intends to sire a heir with....said to have married her for her weight in gold).

Genna Lannister was married to Emmon before the Red Wedding, not a reward.  Somehow I don't see that blood tie would matter overmuch to Walder when negotiating a price for the Red Wedding.  Marriages he picks up from the Lannisters are Lancel (who despite being Kevan's eldest is not likely to inherit King's Landing at the time of the Red Wedding), and Daven (who is a cousin of the main line in the large Lannister family).  Myrcella or Tommen Baratheon or the Crown of the Riverlands probably should have been the minimum asking price considering his previous actions and established character... Walder got neither for committing the worst crime imaginable in this society but removing the last apparent major threat to the Lannisters.


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## NewJeffCT (Jun 6, 2013)

Grue said:


> Yeah...a North overrun with ironborn, raided winter foodstocks and a sacked Winterfell not to mention even though the Stark bannermen get wiped at the Red Wedding if Roose manages to put the Greyjoys down he's stuck with a bunch of holds that will forever brand his family as traitors (granted his only heir is a bastard) and the reasonably intact (and notably difficult) Karstarks have a better claim to legitimacy as the paramount house in the North.  And Bolton is noted for his 'calculating caution'.
> 
> Considering the Freys do the heavy lifting at the Red Wedding I don't remember why Roose had to be part of the deal besides being married to Walda Frey (who we never intends to sire a heir with....said to have married her for her weight in gold).
> 
> Genna Lannister was married to Emmon before the Red Wedding, not a reward.  Somehow I don't see that blood tie would matter overmuch to Walder when negotiating a price for the Red Wedding.  Marriages he picks up from the Lannisters are Lancel (who despite being Kevan's eldest is not likely to inherit King's Landing at the time of the Red Wedding), and Daven (who is a cousin of the main line in the large Lannister family).  Myrcella or Tommen Baratheon or the Crown of the Riverlands probably should have been the minimum asking price considering his previous actions and established character... Walder got neither for committing the worst crime imaginable in this society but removing the last apparent major threat to the Lannisters.




The Freys are not considered an important enough family to have received Myrcella or Tommen's hand in marriage.  Tommen was second in line for the throne at the time of the Red Wedding, while Myrcella had already been pledged to Trystane Martell of Dorne.  The initial betrothal to Robb Stark was already a stretch for them, but Walder Frey knew he had them over a barrel when Cat negotiated passage.  At the time, Cat also probably had hopes her sister would join the war against the Lannisters, so Frey figured that the North, the Riverlands and the Vale had a good chance in the war.

After Stannis was defeated and reduced to near insignificance, the Ironborn sacked Winterfell and the Tyrells/Highgarden joined the Lannisters, Frey's choices were join with Robb and hope to fight to a draw (at best), or else throw in with the Lannisters and end the war quickly.  Remember, at the beginning, Dorne had sent men marching North to be a part of the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, so it might have been looked at as even Dorne was joining with Highgarden and the Lannisters.


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## Grue (Jun 6, 2013)

NewJeffCT said:


> The Freys are not considered an important enough family to have received Myrcella or Tommen's hand in marriage.  Tommen was second in line for the throne at the time of the Red Wedding, while Myrcella had already been pledged to Trystane Martell of Dorne.  The initial betrothal to Robb Stark was already a stretch for them, but Walder Frey knew he had them over a barrel when Cat negotiated passage.  At the time, Cat also probably had hopes her sister would join the war against the Lannisters, so Frey figured that the North, the Riverlands and the Vale had a good chance in the war.
> 
> After Stannis was defeated and reduced to near insignificance, the Ironborn sacked Winterfell and the Tyrells/Highgarden joined the Lannisters, Frey's choices were join with Robb and hope to fight to a draw (at best), or else throw in with the Lannisters and end the war quickly.  Remember, at the beginning, Dorne had sent men marching North to be a part of the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, so it might have been looked at as even Dorne was joining with Highgarden and the Lannisters.




If survival was what mattered, the Freys (and Bolton) could have just pledged their banners to Lannister and closed down the Twins to the North.  Tywin brought the Tyrells back under Joffery with a marriage alliance (and no penalty that I remember) and in regard to the Dornishmen the Martells have a very big axe to grind with the Lannisters over the near blood feud due to the killing of Princess Elia and her two children with Rhaegar Targaryen.  

Given the importance and what should be a huge stigma of breaking the salt bond (punished by gods and not just men) in a world that should be fairly superstitious, Tywin is way out line if the Red Wedding was demanded as a condition of Frey\Bolton survival.  Especially considering that Tywin while ruthless is also practical... pardoning the Freys and Bolton to have them switch sides a small payoff considering he would know how precarious the Lannister position was at that moment.  I don't see Walder (and Bolton) being in a total panic to make any sort of deal to survive... merely switching sides good enough to ensure a pardon.  They wanted more than survival but they sold cheap considering he could have just buttoned up and sat on the fence a bit longer with a reasonably intact force if Tywin proved intransigent.  

I'm just going with the 'curse pushed Frey to take that last step' rather than a flaw in the Red Wedding setup.  You do not break the salt bond that way (in a world that has more reason to believe it than we do) unless the stakes are comparitively huge or madness or extreme passion (or both) drive you to it.


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## jonesy (Jun 7, 2013)

Tywin doesn't put much weight into the gods, though. And I've been trying to figure out what religion the Frey follow and I can't find any mention of religion having something to do with them. I can't even find mention of a maester at the twins. There are two maesters in the Frey family, but they've gone to serve other lords.


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## Grue (Jun 7, 2013)

Yup Tywin and probably Littlefinger I'd grant feel natural in their secular outlook and devil take the hindmost attitude.  That the attitude feels a bit prevalent in the nobility a quasi-medieval society where magic, ancestral curses, miracles, etc have a factual truth in the not too distant past does break the atmosphere for me a bit but I can put the blinders on for the most part.  However, the religious scenes he does have I didn't find compelling...particularly the Greyjoys sea-based religion felt a bit flat (not sure what it was for me) and in large part the impression I got from alot of his crafted religions I didn't get a sense that the various followers have a strong emotional attachment to their beliefs and deities (except maybe fear).  

I dunno, without rereading maybe I'm left with the impression because he tells but doesn't show or rather he doesn't connect it to his characters.  Or that his rare relgious character or two are either killed off quickly (and\or not fully developed) or are nearly totally corrupt in some fashion.

Martin did convey the importance of family over the self however very well...  and vows, oaths, and all the other trappings of a feudal society.  And clearly understood the guest-right\salt bond thing from a non-modern perspective.  I just don't think Tywin's outlook should be universal or widespread with Westeros nobility because it doesn't fit logically (especially with the Freys who seem a bit more old fashioned).


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## Remus Lupin (Jun 7, 2013)

I'd guess that the Freys, being from the Riverlands, worship the Seven. But I agree with Grue that it certainly seems among the nobility that most religious observance is somewhat pro forma in any case.

As for pious characters of any kind, the Starks certainly seemed pious after their fashion with regard to the Old Gods, and of course we have the examples of the religion of R'hollor, of whom Mellisandre is the clearest example (it also seems to be the religion that offers the most "cash value" for belief in Westeros). And it remains to be seen whether the Iron Lords Dagon-ish religion gets them very far. Across the narrow sea, the Dothraki don't seem to put a lot of stock in their religion, nor the Slavers (is the Harpy a God?), but the Dark God of the Faceless Men also seems to have some actual real-world weight.

One day perhaps I'll get around to writing something of some length on Westerosi religion. But I'm interested in what Martin intends to do with it, if anything, by the end.


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## jonesy (Jun 7, 2013)

This is awesome (no spoilers if you've seen episode 9):
[video=youtube;xbEhByk4Icg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4Icg[/video]


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## MarkB (Jun 7, 2013)

To be fair, while I think the curse may have helped, I do get the impression that Walder Frey really is exactly embittered, self-centred and egotistical enough that he'd willingly throw aside custom and social taboos if it meant repaying someone for a personal slight. I doubt it required much of a push.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 8, 2013)

It's possible that Melisandre and Stannis's "curse" is actually a vision of the future instead. He doesn't know magic, and Melisandre could be lying to him. The vision could even be false.



Spoiler



For instance, that magic sword Stannis has? It's magic, but it's probably not the "Lightbringer" sword that Melisandre told Stannis it was.


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## jonesy (Jun 8, 2013)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> For instance, that magic sword Stannis has? It's magic, but it's probably not the "Lightbringer" sword that Melisandre told Stannis it was.





Spoiler



According to what Aemon said it's definitely not the real one.


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## amarin221 (Jun 9, 2013)

You're a wizard Tarley!


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