# [Update] My girlfriend is not breaking up with me



## ForceUser (Aug 21, 2004)

Today I stood in the shower and let the water wash over me. It poured over my head and down my cheeks, and my vision blurred from running bathwater as though I was crying. I leaned my forehead against the shower stall and felt defeated. In three hours, my girlfriend is going to get off a plane, drive home and explain to me the issues she's worked out in her life while she was away visiting her mother. She's going to tell me the changes she needs to make so she can feel...happier? Productive? I'm not sure. From the tenor of our most recent emails, I suspect this profound change she needs to make does not include me.

We've dated for eight months, and I can say without hyperbole that it has been the happiest time of my life. I know that during this time she has struggled with finding a career after college, with sexism on the job, and with loneliness as her closest family members in town moved far away. Through it all I have been supportive, encouraging her to do what's best for herself, encouraging her to take action. I am feeling a sense of bitter irony as our meeting today approaches. 

I have been suspecting that something was wrong for several days as her communication went from loving to perfunctory. Last night, in an email, she confirmed my suspicion - when she returned, we needed to have a talk. I love my girlfriend. I'm frightened.

T-minus 3 hours and counting.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 21, 2004)

Y'know, "Seinfeld"'s George Costanza wasn't right about a great many things, but his preemptive break-up thing was right on the money.  Break up with her before she has a chance to do the same to you.  Women want to be dumped even less than men do.  I mean, if the handwriting's on the wall anyway for this relationship, at least you can come out the victor.  

 Anyone who tells you relationships aren't about who wins is either lying to you, naive, or trying to sell you a self-help tape.


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## ForceUser (Aug 21, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Y'know, "Seinfeld"'s George Costanza wasn't right about a great many things, but his preemptive break-up thing was right on the money.  Break up with her before she has a chance to do the same to you.  Women want to be dumped even less than men do.  I mean, if the handwriting's on the wall anyway for this relationship, at least you can come out the victor.
> 
> Anyone who tells you relationships aren't about who wins is either lying to you, naive, or trying to sell you a self-help tape.



You...are a bad man


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 21, 2004)

I was actually being semi-serious .  If you think the net result will be "no girlfriend", why not be the dumper instead of the dumpee?


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## ForceUser (Aug 21, 2004)

I think it's immature. George Costanza is no role model. I am hoping to work it out.


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## Argent Silvermage (Aug 21, 2004)

There is never a good time for a break up but "doing it before she can" is beyond stupid. (no offense TW) 

The mature thing to do is steel yourself for the worst but actualy talk about whay is happening. If you love this woman and she loves you then compromise is the only way to go. Just remember it is not a game... it's life.   

My best wishes for you and her.
A


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## dave_o (Aug 21, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Girls =  :\ .




She may also just need some space for a while. Sometimes, if you're really into someone, you can't really tell that you're smothering them. I don't know enough about your situation, but along with some accidental smothering, you could also really be a stumbling block toward her getting her $*#& together. Relationships are pretty hard, especially when they start to go south, and she may truly simply be speaking out of her best interests.

Just, try to understand her side, as well.

My suggestion is to maintain contact, and help her however she asks. But don't seem desperate; appear, at least, to totally understand why she's doing what she's doing. She'll respect you a lot for it, and that'll show a degree of maturity that most girls won't wanna give up.

That, or revenge, are really your only options.


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## Umbran (Aug 21, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> If you think the net result will be "no girlfriend", why not be the dumper instead of the dumpee?




If for no other reason - what you _think_ might happen and what is actually going to happen are often not the same thing.  Humans are remakably bad at predicting the future.  Your advice is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.  

In addition, if you really care about them, you don't want to hurt them, even if they're about to hurt you.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 21, 2004)

Argent Silvermage said:
			
		

> There is never a good time for a break up but "doing it before she can" is beyond stupid. (no offense TW)



 :: smiley, where are you when I need you most?

 I'm gonna tell you guys a little story, so bear with me for a second.

 I dated a girl for a while in high school.  We'd been great friends for a few years; everyone around us thought it was a good match.  I was kind and sweet and chivalrous towards her.  She was my first real love, and I loved this girl with every fiber of my being.  She was happy, I was happy.  Then one day, literally out of the blue, she shows up on my doorstep wanting to go for a walk in the park.  We go out to a picnic table and she drops the break-up bomb on me.  I was completely unprepared.  She told me she'd had feelings for me that she thought was love, and they'd just recently decoded themselves, and it turned out she'd never been in love with me.  I told her that's all fine and dandy, but I couldn't turn off my feelings like a faucet; I couldn't make myself not love her anymore.  Her response was "You'll just have to try."  For the record: she was the one who wanted to go steady in the first place.

 Fast forward a couple years.  We were in our first years in college.  She'd gone out of state, I stayed local.  I get a letter from her and she's basically taking back everything in the breakup.  She's so lonely and she misses me so much and she wants to go back to the way things were.  And for me, the last 2 years of getting over her just washes away.  We email each other nightly, and see each other on winter break.  She talks to me about how dissatisfied she is at her school, and how she's going to come back and study here.  Needless to say, I'm thrilled with the prospect of picking up again, a little older and (to my thinking) a little wiser.

 So she moves back to town.  We see each other once.  I put no pressure on her, just saying how great it is to have her back around and how much I've missed her.  And then she never returns my calls.  It took me a couple weeks to put it all together and realize that I've just spent the better part of a year undoing 2 years worth of emotional healing, just to go back to being hurt again.  I let the same girl DESTROY me twice.

 I spent a lot of time after that wondering what the hell was wrong with me, why do women keep leaving?  All of them have agreed in the inevitable relationship postmortem that I did everything right, I was a perfect gentleman and a good boyfriend.  

 Then I started looking around at the relationships around me.  My buddy's girlfriend of several years cheated on him and left him.  Another friend, as sweet a guy as you'll ever meet, was dumped repeatedly.  

 I started to see a pattern, and it led me to a kind of truth: Men let women control the relationship.  Women tend to decide when the relationship begins and when it ends.  Also, women (in my experience) tend to come out much better in the end emotionally than men.  

 All of this led me to the following conclusion: Men need to be more proactive in their romantic relationships.  Men have to stand up for what they want and be vocal about it.  At its best, a relationship has to be a true emotional partnership between two people, and you should always put the happiness of the other person front and center, but in the end you have to look out for your own emotions too.

 And I've put this philosophy into play, quite successfully I might add.  *I* instigated the relationship with my current girlfriend.  *I* asked her to move in with me.  *I *said we should share our financial burdens.  We've been together five years and I've never once felt like a passenger.  And _if _the day ever comes when I can see it's not working out (I don't think it'll get that bad, but you never know) *I* will be the one to say "it's over".  

 Is this plan right for everyone?  Probably not.  But we all have a choice to make ultimately: you can be standing in the wreckage of a relationship wondering what went wrong, or you can declare that you are in control of your destiny.  I know which one I'll pick from now on.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 21, 2004)

Double post.


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## Angcuru (Aug 21, 2004)

From what I've seen observing my friends' relationships, the best way to go is to do what makes you happy.  Fie on what everyone else thinks.  You're the one in the relationship, not them.


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I told her that's all fine and dandy, but I couldn't turn off my feelings like a faucet; I couldn't make myself not love her anymore.  Her response was "You'll just have to try."




Oh, yeah, know that one.

I've found that trying to 'maintain the friendship' is... ill-advised.  It probably won't stop me doing it again in future, but I've found myself that the only way to even begin to heal is to just stay the hell away from her.

"I hope we can still be friends?"
"Sorry... it doesn't work like that.  Have a nice life... and by the way, I'll be training at another club now."

-Hyp.


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## Treebore (Aug 22, 2004)

TW is largely right, but what needs to be mentioned is you need to find a mature women who realizes it isn't all about just them, but it is all about the two of you. If the two of you are hoping to make it then you better learn to talk, talk honestly, talk often, be able to yell and scream at each other, and talk some more. For a relationship to work you have to be committed to not giving up and making it work. But you also have to have the maturity/insight to realize if it really can't work. When you learn to take care of each other so that you don't have to worry about taking care of yourselves, then your getting somewhere.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 22, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> At its best, a relationship has to be a true emotional partnership between two people, and you should always put the happiness of the other person front and center, but in the end you have to look out for your own emotions too.



I totally agree with this.  What I can't agree with is that, no matter how small the part, no matter how insignificant the role, there's ever been any character on _Seinfeld_ worth emulating.  _Especially _in relationships.

Sure, be in control of your own destiny.  But if your sweetie has concluded that things aren't going to work out, you _aren't _in control of that part of your destiny.  Pre-emptive breakups, the Costanza philosophy, is comedy precisely because it's so obviously _not_ the philosophy of someone in control.

I hope things go well for you, *ForceUser*; that sounds like a no-good conversation to have to have.  If it's over, I hope the wound can cauterize quickly, so that you can move on through life.

Daniel


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 22, 2004)

Look, I don't really take relationship advice from George Costanza, any more than I think _In the Company of Men_ was a how-to guide.  That was a (perhaps feeble) attempt at exaggeration-as-humor.  

 I just reject this notion that we, as men, should have no say in how a relationship operates.  That for some reason women are cannier about these things, so we should just let them call the shots.  I call BS to that.  From my experience, women are just as screwed-up, neurotic and unsure of themselves as men.  There's no hidden insight or "women's intuition".  Boys, they are as lost as we are.

 And if this whole relationship is ending and there isn't money involved, a new lover involved, abuse, or a knock-down dragout argument, then it's a fairly wanky thing for her to do, and you're frankly better off with someone more mature.


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## Knightfall (Aug 22, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> I have been suspecting that something was wrong for several days as her communication went from loving to perfunctory. Last night, in an email, she confirmed my suspicion - when she returned, we needed to have a talk. I love my girlfriend. I'm frightened.




Hmm, I feel for you ForceUser. It sounds like you care about her a lot. If it happens, there is nothing anyone can say or do to make the pain go away. Only you, and time, can heal that broken heart. And time doesn't always heal the pain.

Sometimes, love sucks, and it stays with you.  :\

Suck it up, either that, or get drunk. 

KF72


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## frankthedm (Aug 22, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> "I hope we can still be friends?"
> "Sorry... it doesn't work like that.  Have a nice life..."
> 
> -Hyp.




Yep!


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## Glak (Aug 22, 2004)

Go to askmen.com and read all of the articles by Doc Love.  You will learn everything that there is to know about women.

There are three kind of men:

Nice
Jerk
Mysterious

Women want Mysterious but will settle for Jerks.  They will not tolerate Nice for long.  You have to go from Nice to Mysterious.  Also once a girl gives you second thoughts you HAVE to dump her.  If she needs space you must never talk to her again.  The problem with this though... it that it will make her want you more than ever.  So actually consider using some reverse pychology: Cry a lot and tell her that you need her and beg like a sissy.  That will drive her away.

Oh and the last rule:  never take advice on women from women.  The true nature of women is that they want what they can't have, or at least have to work for really hard.  Now there are decent girls out there but if they knew the truth about their own nature, well that would require a couple sanity checks.  To keep from being destroyed by Cthulian maddness they do not know their true nature.

The above post is 100% true but you don't have to believe me.  It is all in your hands now.  I have done my part for my fellow man.


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## KenM (Aug 22, 2004)

There is a girl I'm very interested in and good friends with. One night we shared a passionate kiss. She seemed to like it as much as I did. The next day she tells me. "Ken, I know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it like that."  Those were her exact words.    WTF???  How do you mean it when you kiss someone on the mouth? I wanted to ask her.   
   Women. I feel for you, Force User.


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## Heretic Apostate (Aug 22, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> There is a girl I'm very interested in and good friends with. One night we shared a passionate kiss. She seemed to like it as much as I did. The next day she tells me. "Ken, I know I kissed you on the mouth, but I did not mean it like that."



This type of thing has come up before--maybe not on EN World, but I've seen it discussed.

Women will make out because they want to thank you, or because they need the ego boost, or because they just feel like it at the time.  It doesn't necessarily mean what it means to you.

The trouble is that humans are emotionally insane.  Both men and women.  We're completely isolated emotionally, but we fool ourselves into thinking we've "made a connection."  Nope.  We've no proof that other people exist, and it's too easy to treat other people as props in the play that is our lives.

People are nuts.  Plain and simple.


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## Umbran (Aug 22, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I just reject this notion that we, as men, should have no say in how a relationship operates.




As far as I can tell, you are rejecting a notion that nobody here has really advocated.

Plus, the pre-emptive breakup thing you suggested isn't being proactive.  It is still reactive - you sense or think that she's going to break up with you, so you do it first.  But you are still basing your actions upon the decision she made (or one you think she's made), rather than upon your own feelings.



			
				 Glak said:
			
		

> The above post is 100% true...




Bunk.  Twaddle.  And a non-constructive use of inaccurate stereotypes to boot.  It is thinking like this that brings us things like The Rules.

The problem with such generalizations is that, when you get down to it, you wind up dealing with a single individual person who will differ from your broad generalizations in umpteen different significant ways, and your methodology will fall apart like a house of cards.

In the end, anyone you get seriously involved with will find out who you really are, no matter how you act.  If the person underneath does not match the "mysterious" (or whatever other) front you used at meeting, they will reevaluate the relationship based upon who you are, but they'll add the deception into their consideration, too.  You may or may not come out positively in this.  Seems to me that you delay the inevitable, and stack the odds against you if you behave like somehting you aren't.  Better all around to be truthful to yourself and them at the outset.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 22, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Oh, yeah, know that one.
> 
> I've found that trying to 'maintain the friendship' is... ill-advised.  It probably won't stop me doing it again in future, but I've found myself that the only way to even begin to heal is to just stay the hell away from her.
> 
> ...




My last "relationship" was so on again/ off again, that I'm not sure, but we may still be dating and just haven't talked in 3 years. 

If the girl you're dating has decided she had to go away to straighten stuff out, then the relationship is probably dead already. She's trying to sort out her life and doesn't want you involved in that process, so she probably feels (right or wrong) that you're stifling her.

The best is a friend whose fiance broke up with him because they weren't spending enough time togethor. The logic of "we're not seeing each other enough, so I don't want to see you anymore" is perfect!


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## Heretic Apostate (Aug 22, 2004)

So spill!  Did she break up with you or not?


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## Umbran (Aug 22, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If the girl you're dating has decided she had to go away to straighten stuff out, then the relationship is probably dead already. She's trying to sort out her life and doesn't want you involved in that process, so she probably feels (right or wrong) that you're stifling her.




We should perhaps not engage in internet mind reading.  We don't know the lady in question, nor any but the most vague of descriptions of what's going on.  We are not in a position to know what's going on in her head, or know what she does or does not want.


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## Stone Dog (Aug 23, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> "I hope we can still be friends?"
> "Sorry... it doesn't work like that.  Have a nice life... and by the way, I'll be training at another club now."




Except when it does work like that.  I dated a girl for over six months and she broke up with me for several reasons.  Yeah, I was miserable for a while and wanted her back for a good while longer than that, but after 5 years she is still one of the best friends I have on this earth.  She was one of the most important influences in my life (and those learning experiences are part of why I am happily married now) and I love her dearly.  Just not in any sort of romantic way anymore.

Anyway, I hope this all goes well for you, oh suffering stranger.


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## Turanil (Aug 23, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Last night, in an email, she confirmed my suspicion - when she returned, we needed to have a talk. I love my girlfriend. I'm frightened.
> 
> T-minus 3 hours and counting.




Hey, it has three days since you posted this! I want to know, what's happened? Did she left you or was it something else? 

(After all, this "we need to have a serious talk" could turn into "now I want to marry you" or "I am pregnant", not only "sorry, I leave")

After the teaser we now have the right to know!


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## BiggusGeekus (Aug 23, 2004)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Hey, it has three days since you posted this! I want to know, what's happened? Did she left you or was it something else?




I think, at this point, we must seriously consider the probability that the woman in question is actually a Rakshasa who has been in disguise all this time.  ForceUser probably went to the rendez-vous without a blessed crossbow bolt (a good precaution for any social gathering) and is now likely fighting for his life.

Either that or he went to Gen Con, but really which do you think is more likely?


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## Turanil (Aug 23, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I think, at this point, we must seriously consider the probability that the woman in question is actually a Rakshasa who has been in disguise all this time.  ForceUser probably went to the rendez-vous without a blessed crossbow bolt (an unwise precaution in any social gathering) and is now likely fighting for his life.
> 
> Either that or he went to Gen Con, but really which do you think is more likely?




I can hazard this guess: 

The Rakshasa in disguise finally arrived, intent on revealing her odious treachery, then eat him. So she began saying "_Well my dear, we need to seriously talk. I have someth..._" Of course ForceUser was anxious, but inadvertently he got a look at his watch "_Oh s--t!! I am late for GenCon! Sorry honey, let's continue this talk when I am back!_". 

Well, I have no idea how it could have gone thereafter, when coming back from GenCon; especially if ForceUser got one pack of these cool new Star-Wars minis...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT

In fact, I believe that if he came back from GenCon with one of these cool new Star-Wars minis, things went probably like that.

--(She): _How can you treat me like that! I waited three days and nights in front of your door, it rained, and I got the flu! I want to tell you it's finished between us! You hear me?! I leave!!_
--(He): _How cool! Look at this mini of Darth Vador! isn't that cute?!_


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 23, 2004)

Stone Dog said:
			
		

> Except when it does work like that.  I dated a girl for over six months and she broke up with me for several reasons.  Yeah, I was miserable for a while and wanted her back for a good while longer than that, but after 5 years she is still one of the best friends I have on this earth.  She was one of the most important influences in my life (and those learning experiences are part of why I am happily married now) and I love her dearly.  Just not in any sort of romantic way anymore.




I've just found that it's not possible to get back _to_ the 'friends' place until the wounds heal... and they don't heal while she's still _there_.

Given time without her around, with a chance for the heart to recuperate a little, I can imagine potentially making a friendship work again.  But that time is - for me, at least - absolutely necessary.

-Hyp.


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## ForceUser (Aug 24, 2004)

Thanks for all the interest. I appreciate the support.

My girlfriend did not break up with me. She has apparently been unhappy in the relationship, which was news to me. She got on the plane back here convinced that she needed to break up with me. We discussed things and figured out the real problem: she spends all of her free time devoted to the relationship to the detriment of her personal interests. We have agreed to spend less time together, and she has signed up for a poetry class and an aikido class where she hopes to make new friends and have a life of her own that does not involve being devoted to the relationship 24/7. It's strange new territory for me - the idea of her not being around as often - but it sounds healthy and if it makes her happier, I'm all for it. It will be an adjustment for me, but it's a lot better than breaking up, which as it turns out, is something neither of us wants to do.

More later, I'm off to game.


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## KenM (Aug 24, 2004)

I hope things go well, ForceUser. Spending too much time together can be bad and unhealthy for any relationship. Remember the saying: Absense makes the heart grow fonder.


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## Piratecat (Aug 24, 2004)

Good luck, Forceuser.

As an aside, folks, please stay away from sexist comments. It's easy for threads like this to attract them, so we appreciate restraint.


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## Krieg (Aug 24, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> .../snip/... We discussed things and figured out the real problem: she spends all of her free time devoted to the relationship to the detriment of her personal interests. We have agreed to spend less time together, and she has signed up for a poetry class and an aikido class where she hopes to make new friends and have a life of her own that does not involve being devoted to the relationship 24/7. It's strange new territory for me - the idea of her not being around as often - but it sounds healthy and if it makes her happier, I'm all for it. It will be an adjustment for me, but it's a lot better than breaking up, which as it turns out, is something neither of us wants to do.



Sweet Zombie Jesus...an island of maturity in a sea of...well... you know.

Congratulations and good luck going forward!


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## Argent Silvermage (Aug 24, 2004)

I'm glad talking it out worked for you. My life partner and I have these issues also. but thankfuly he isn't into gaming and I'm not into cars.


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## Chaos Drake (Aug 24, 2004)

Good luck Forceuser. I hope it all works out.


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## Treebore (Aug 24, 2004)

It can definitely work! Good luck!


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## Henry (Aug 24, 2004)

Most couples have this issue at some time or another; congrats to you Forceuser for sticking it out and communicating together to find answers. 

I wish you and her all the best.


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## the Jester (Aug 24, 2004)

Good luck to you, ForceUser!  I hope things work out!


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## GlassJaw (Aug 24, 2004)

*I coulda been a contenda!*

Love stinks.

Think for a second if you didn't have the desire to procreate, sow your oats, continue the species, for companionship, or whatever you want to call it.  Think about the time spent dealing with relationships, the opposite sex, thinking about the opposite sex, etc.  

If I didn't have to deal with all that, I could focus on my plan to rule the world!!  Damn desire to further the species.... :\


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## Pielorinho (Aug 24, 2004)

Dude, think about if you didn't have a desire to rule the world, how much time that would free up for spending with your loved ones!

Nobody ever asks Dr. Doom for love advice.  Although that'd be kinda cool.

Daniel


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 24, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the interest. I appreciate the support.
> 
> My girlfriend did not break up with me. She has apparently been unhappy in the relationship, which was news to me. She got on the plane back here convinced that she needed to break up with me. We discussed things and figured out the real problem: she spends all of her free time devoted to the relationship to the detriment of her personal interests. We have agreed to spend less time together, and she has signed up for a poetry class and an aikido class where she hopes to make new friends and have a life of her own that does not involve being devoted to the relationship 24/7. It's strange new territory for me - the idea of her not being around as often - but it sounds healthy and if it makes her happier, I'm all for it. It will be an adjustment for me, but it's a lot better than breaking up, which as it turns out, is something neither of us wants to do...




I'm going to catch Hell for this, but I want you to listen closely ForceUser.

*She is still going to dump you*

You two talked yourselves out of it, but when she returns to her life away from you and begins to mingle with folks to your exclusion (by design I might add), she is going to hook up with someone from _that_ group.

Make no mistake; you are still breaking up, you havce just chosen to do it incrementally rather than all at once.

I'm sorry man  , but I've seen it more times than I can count (and taken part more times than I'd like to admit).


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## ForceUser (Aug 25, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'm going to catch Hell for this, but I want you to listen closely ForceUser.
> 
> *She is still going to dump you*
> 
> ...



Perhaps. To be honest, I fear this very thing. Having skirted a breakup, there's a part of me that wonders when I'm going to be faced with such a situation again. There's this cheesy old line that goes "If you love something, let it go free. If it doesn't come back, it wasn't meant to be." It's cliche, but I believe in it. I have told her that I want to be with her, but I don't want to be an anchor tying her down and keeping her from doing what she wants to do. I would rather break up than be that. 

I want her to be with me because she chooses to be with me. As painful as it would be to separate, I'd rather that than her staying in the relationship and being unhappy. I have told her this. It's very important to me. That said, I'm not going to live my life waiting for a breakup, because as much as I have been burned in the past (as much as any of you, I'd wager), I am not a cynic. I'm just going to live my life, come what may.


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 25, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> ...That said, I'm not going to live my life waiting for a breakup, because as much as I have been burned in the past (as much as any of you, I'd wager), I am not a cynic. I'm just going to live my life, come what may.




Good Man

I should hope that you won't "live your life waiting for a breakup" (particularly given that you've chosen to continue with the relationship). If this is what you have decided to attempt, you'd be crazy to live your life that way.

It is just important that if/when it happens, you are not entirely unprepared for it.

I wish you the best of luck, and hope that everyhting works out in your favor; but should the "train leave the tracks", try and have your guard up a bit, OK?


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## Hand of Evil (Aug 25, 2004)

As TB said but to add, you also need to do what she is doing, get out meet new people change a little too, find something to keep yourself busy.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 25, 2004)

ForceUser, let me ask you a question.  Do you honestly feel like you were "an anchor tying her down"?  Do you think you were making unrealistic or insensitve demands on her time and attention?  Because there's a distinction between "obsessive and clingy" and "I'm your boyfriend, how about a little attention", and it's not a fine line.  

 Maybe you really were being a drain on her time and social life; only the two of you know for sure.  But you'll have to ask yourself in the time to come if you are having YOUR emotional needs met.  I feel ridiculous for even having to say this, but it's something a lot of guys don't get, or feel guilty for considering, and that's: 

_Your needs are as important as hers_.


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## Citizen Mane (Aug 25, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> *Your needs are as important as hers.*




Absolutely.  This is _so_ key.  Glad that everything's kosher now, ForceUser, and I hope it stays good and positive.

Best,
Nick


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## Umbran (Aug 25, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You two talked yourselves out of it, but when she returns to her life away from you and begins to mingle with folks to your exclusion (by design I might add), she is going to hook up with someone from _that_ group.




Gloom and doom are not constructive.

It is always possible - always, even for relationships that have lasted decades - for one person or the other to find someone new.  This much is true.  But it is also always necessary for a relationship to find a balance between "we-time" and "me-time".  People must have an identity separate from their romantic relationships.

Rather than being an assured doom, the step they've taken is one that is required for long-term stability.  Doesn't mean they won't fall apart, but it certainly doesn't mean they will, either.


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 26, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Gloom and doom are not constructive.




In a thread where opinions are requested, _all_ opinion is contructive.

If you want to give him "Sunshine and Light", then go ahead. But my experiences (and they are myriad) point elsewhere.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> ...Rather than being an assured doom, the step they've taken is one that is required for long-term stability.  Doesn't mean they won't fall apart, but it certainly doesn't mean they will, either.




I have 50 bucks that says they will.


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## Terwox (Aug 26, 2004)

I once bet five bucks w/ a seperate guy that a friend of mine from work would break up with his girlfriend, because they were having lots of problems and needed a long talk.

I now owe that guy five bucks -- they talked it out and they've been happy since.  Well, as far as I know, I haven't talked to them lately.

It can work, it can not work, I can't say I have any real advice though.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> In a thread where opinions are requested, _all_ opinion is contructive.




I'm not sure that's actually true.  But, if it is, then my opinion that gloom and doom isn't constructive is, in and of itself, constructive 

The thing is this - gloom and doom strongly tends to be self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you believe that it's going to end, you will tend to behave in such a manner that will bring about the end even if it wasn't going to happen.  Unless you _want_ the relationship to end, there is no gain from taking the position that it will.



> If you want to give him "Sunshine and Light", then go ahead. But my experiences (and they are myriad) point elsewhere.




The human heart is not digital, TB.  It has more than the two states.  If you go and read what I've said, you'll see that I'm not taking a "sunshine and light" position.  I'm more a "act constructively, wait and see" kind of guy.  I have admitted that an end may happen.  But I strongly suggest that taking that as the core position is a backwards step.



> I have 50 bucks that says they will.




I'm on a student budget, looking for a job, and getting married in October.  I don't have spare dimes to rub together, much less $50 bucks to spare on gambling.


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## Desdichado (Aug 26, 2004)

There's a fair amount of bad advice in there.  In general, I'd be extremely wary of anything that sounds a little like "don't commit yourself too far, look out for #1."  Exactly that attitude is why divorce rates are as high as they are these days.  Anybody who can make a relationship last should tell you that it takes commitment of a kind that you probably haven't ever done before.  It takes a lot of work.  It takes a lot of understanding, and forgiving and compromising and not always getting exactly what you want.  And it takes doing so without making yourself out as some kind of martyr, because your SO is most likely doing the exact same thing.

I'm sure TB is totally right when he says he's seen a lot of couples that had problems of this scale break up.  I'm also totally right when I say I've seen a lot of couples that had more serious issues than this, and worked through them and are still happily together now.  Heck, _I've_ had harder issues to deal with than that, and we just had our tenth wedding anniversary earlier this summer.


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## reanjr (Aug 26, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'm going to catch Hell for this, but I want you to listen closely ForceUser.
> 
> *She is still going to dump you*
> 
> ...




I have to confirm this from experience.  While it certainly is possible that this is some unique situation, it's probably going to happen.


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## reanjr (Aug 26, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The human heart is not digital, TB.  It has more than the two states.




The lifeline is split into FEAR and LOVE dammit!!


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## cyferwolf (Aug 26, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> I think it's immature. George Costanza is no role model. I am hoping to work it out.




Looking for maturity on the internet is like looking for diamonds in dog doo. You might find some, but you'll come out rather worse for wear.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Anybody who can make a relationship last should tell you that it takes commitment of a kind that you probably haven't ever done before.  It takes a lot of work.  It takes a lot of understanding, and forgiving and compromising and not always getting exactly what you want.  And it takes doing so without making yourself out as some kind of martyr, because your SO is most likely doing the exact same thing.




*Amen and Hallelujah!*

The US Census Bureau says that between 47% and 50% of new marriages end in divorce.  In the modern world, staying together is _hard_.



> Heck, _I've_ had harder issues to deal with than that, and we just had our tenth wedding anniversary earlier this summer.




Cool!  Congrats!


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Exactly that attitude is why divorce rates are as high as they are these days.  Anybody who can make a relationship last should tell you that it takes commitment of a kind that you probably haven't ever done before.  It takes a lot of work.  It takes a lot of understanding, and forgiving and compromising and not always getting exactly what you want.  And it takes doing so without making yourself out as some kind of martyr, because your SO is most likely doing the exact same thing.




The guy who got dumped because he didn't spend enough time with his fiance, he and I had been talking before hand, and I told him "Just remember, things will change once you're married"
"We've been togethor for years, I know who she is."
"I've never met her, but it doesn't matter. I'm not saying things will get worse, but they WILL change. Just be ready to work it out."

We had been discussing his spending habits, and he said he pays all the bills, and uses his overtime money for hobby's, so she couldn't complain about the money. I said "well then, she'll complain about you not spending enough time with her because you're always working overtime."

Heck, that was a year ago she dumped him, and he's engaged again. Hopefully better luck this time.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 27, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The US Census Bureau says that between 47% and 50% of new marriages end in divorce. In the modern world, staying together is _hard_.



 Heh.  I thank Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu every morning that my parents broke up, and had the common decency to do it when I was 3 rather than 13.  They're nice people, but they're oil and water.

 BIG TANGENT/RANT ALERT

 Some people look at a statistic like that and think "How horrible.  No one values marriage anymore."  I look at that statistic and think "How many of those 47-50% shouldn't have gotten married in the first place?  Who pushed them into that?"  I for one think marriage is entirely too over-valued in our society, and people like me who love somebody but don't put much stock in marriages are punished for that belief.  

 How many marriages are entered into for financial reasons?  For some, that's the only way they can get health insurance if they have the wrong kind of job.  

 If there were a good domestic partnership law in this country, I bet we'd see those divorce statistics cut in half overnight.  Why?  Less people getting married.


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## Desdichado (Aug 27, 2004)

RESPONSE TO BIG TANGENT RANT ALERT

OK, I know I'm probably going to be in the minority on this one, but I really have to wonder at how someone can claim that marriage is "overvalued" in our society; I'd quite strongly agree that the _opposite_ is true.

Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of _good_ reasons that marriages can end in divorce.  But I think we're fooling ourselves if we think _most_ of those marriages fall into that bracket.  Most marriages fail, in my opinion, because of lack of commitment to each other and to the marriage, and an increasing level of self-centeredness in general.

So, the solution to divorce is to have better domestic partnership laws so that fewer people get married?  That's silly; that doesn't address the fundamental reason the _relationships_ fail.  That's a loophole around the statistic is all.

Not only that, that's "playing house."  Yeah, we're going to get together, act like we're married, but we're not going to actually, y'know, get married, because I don't want to make that kind of long-term commitment, and hey, that'll really suck for me if it doesn't work out.

Well, duh.  Going into it with that frame of mind, of course it's going to fail.  A relationship is a commitment.  That's one of the reasons I strongly support marriage; unmarried couples that lack that committment are setting themselves up to fail.  Now, that doesn't mean you should rush into marriage; I'm hardly an advocate of that.  You still need to get married for the right reasons.

But a workaround that invalidates the statistic but does nothing to address the root problem is silly.  The solution for lowering the divorce rate isn't to make marriage less attractive, it's to value committment and sacrifice rather than self-interest and short-term gratification.

Not that I have any ideas on how to do that beyond myself and my own family, but there you have it.


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## Turanil (Aug 27, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The solution for lowering the divorce rate isn't to make marriage less attractive, it's to value committment and sacrifice rather than *self-interest and short-term gratification*.




You mean... Sex??


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## Goblyns Hoard (Aug 27, 2004)

*Live your own life!*

ForceUser - don't be convinced by anything anyone say "Is going to happen"

I went through something like what you've been through... but she actually left me.  We lived separately for about 2 months, she did her own thing, I sat in Limbo, waiting to hear from her.

I did not hound her to stay with me, I gave her the distance and space she asked for

And just this morning she booked the venue for our wedding (365 days left lads... toooo short   )

That said my best mate at work who was getting married in about 9 months time is now single - citing pretty much exactly what my girl did to me....

It can go either way, give her the space she needs to be her own person... more important than that take an interest in her actions.  Go watch her when she's competing in her aikido class or grading for her next belt, go listen to her friends when they have recitals.  Try and become part of the people that are "her" friends - afterall she comes out with your mates as well (I hope)

Of course don't forget what the Tarrasque said - your feelings, your well being are just as important as hers, don't let yourself fall into her shadow.  But equally she needs the space to be herself

All the best - hoping you get the same response I did!

The Hoard


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> BIG TANGENT/RANT ALERT
> 
> Some people look at a statistic like that and think "How horrible.  No one values marriage anymore."  I look at that statistic and think "How many of those 47-50% shouldn't have gotten married in the first place?




Well, yes, that's rather the point.  A marriage requires a lot of work.  If you aren't aware of that, and ready, willing, and able to do it, you shouldn't get married.



> How many marriages are entered into for financial reasons?  For some, that's the only way they can get health insurance if they have the wrong kind of job.




The fact that it is the only solution available doesn't make it a good solution.  



> If there were a good domestic partnership law in this country, I bet we'd see those divorce statistics cut in half overnight.




That's using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail.  If the problem is the cost of health care, treat the actual problem - the cost of health care.  Attacking the situation tangentially fails to get to the root of the problem.  The original problem will continue to exist, and thus will eventually bite you on the butt.  When it does so, it will be even a more intractable problem than it is now.

Edit- I should note that this is as far into the politics of the matter as I'm willing to go.  I would not find it appropriate to go further into the legal issues tied into marriage.


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