# My Wizard Build, suggestions?



## simen (May 7, 2009)

First what this build is about. It's first role is a controller. The second is as an all knowing and being a utility wizard. And last he is a minor leader and I try to boost damage a little to.

I have choose Eladrin as my race. Why? Because I like them  Easy as that. And "Eladrin training" really helps being all knowing and "Fey Step" is always good.

Stats lvl 1:

```
str: 8
con: 14
dex: 13
int: 18
wis: 14
cha: 12
```

Then boost int/wis. Why con 14? My character plans to die of old age 

Feats:

```
1: Enlarge Spell (AP)
2: Quickdraw
4: Implement Expertise (PHB2)
6: Skill training: Religion, Multiclass Bard@lvl 11 keeping Religion
8: Arcane Familiar (AP), Dual Implement Spellcast (AP)@lvl 17
10: Eladrin Sword Wizardry (AP)

11: Spell Focus
12: Second Implement: Staff
14: Danger Sense
16: Improved Staff of defense (AP) / Paragon Defenses, Epic Fortitude@Epic
18: Improved Orb of Imposition (AP)
20: Destructive Wizardry 

21: Arcane Mastery
22: Spell Accuracy
24: Wizard Implement Expertise (AP)
26: Explosive Spellcasting (AP)
28: Arcane Familiar (AP)
30: Not decided
```

On powers and such I'll mostly take controller spells. Like sleep. But I'm also the minion killer in the party so spells like "Stinking Cloud" would also be in his spellbook.

He will take the "Orb of Imposition" as his arcane implement mastery at level 1. And then use his "good" con (for being a controller wizard) to use with "Staff of Defense"@lvl 16.

"Eladrin Sword Wizardry" is taken to get access to a "Cunning Longsword", but I won't use it's Wand powers.

My "Arcane Familiar" will ofcourse be a spider to help with saving throws.

Last "Multiclass Bard@lvl 11", why level 11? Because I need +1 to charisma to take that feat. Why MC Bard with a character with 12 cha and not planing to boost that stat? Well, because his rituals usually doesn't require cha, and he has kick ass rituals. And it fits into to the role of the character. His rituals will help me being a sort of leader, atleast outside combat encounters.

I plan to take "Unseen Mage" as my PP. Not decided on ED, but "Sage of Ages" and standard "Archmage" are two good options.


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## Victim (May 7, 2009)

Why not start with Cleric Multiclass instead of skill training?  It gets you religion either way, plus an emergency heal.


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## simen (May 7, 2009)

You get an emergency heal as Bard to. My DM won't let us retrain MC feats, so retraining to Bard from Cleric is not an option. I thought about Cleric and having wisdom 16 and "Divine Oracle", but that didn't fit my character. And as I said, with Bard MC you get access to alot of cool feats


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## mach1.9pants (May 7, 2009)

Two questions:

1. Why quick draw?
2. Do you get to choose backgrounds? (if so dump CON and choose the one that gives you highest score as your starting HP ability score).


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## simen (May 7, 2009)

mach1.9pants said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Why quick draw?
> 2. Do you get to choose backgrounds? (if so dump CON and choose the one that gives you highest score as your starting HP ability score).




To draw stuff fast? Like taking a healing potion, drawing an orb to use it's power if i miss (like "Orb of Impenetrable Escape").

Yes we do. But my character doesn't "fit" into being from "Thay" where you can use your int instead of con as hitpoint. HP isn't the biggest importance either. With a high con I get better fortitude and can use Staff, and I also get +2 to my healing surges per day. Or would you rather go for leather armour and drop Staff and Con all together?


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## mach1.9pants (May 8, 2009)

Yeah quick draw can be usefull if you have multiple orbs, I guess. Otherwise I would drop the staff and the con. ALWAYS get leather proficiency (our Wiz AC is 2nd only to the Ftr!). Get dual implement caster and you have 2 orbs instantly available and your damage is much increased.

There are other backgrounds (like born under a bad sign/auspicious birth) but they are not FR.....

Still I am no min maxer but just IMO  Oh and take the increased fort defence feats if you are worried, they stack with paragon/robust defences.


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## simen (May 8, 2009)

mach1.9pants said:


> Yeah quick draw can be usefull if you have multiple orbs, I guess. Otherwise I would drop the staff and the con. ALWAYS get leather proficiency (our Wiz AC is 2nd only to the Ftr!). Get dual implement caster and you have 2 orbs instantly available and your damage is much increased.
> 
> There are other backgrounds (like born under a bad sign/auspicious birth) but they are not FR.....
> 
> Still I am no min maxer but just IMO  Oh and take the increased fort defence feats if you are worried, they stack with paragon/robust defences.




I haven't seen anything else than Thay giving this bonus... I've checked PHB2 and Arcane Power. But that would be great 

Is Fortitude important, I haven't read Monsters Manual  The problem with only taking a feat, is that all my feat slots are already taken  Maybe I should pump my dex than and go with a Wand as second implement? Or drop second implement?

Edit: On staff. I was thinking about wielding a "Staff of Ruin" when I'm not controlling. That's why I thought staff implement would be nice to. It gives a +1 AC and you can add you con mod. to a defense once per encounter.


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## cdrcjsn (May 8, 2009)

simen said:


> To draw stuff fast? Like taking a healing potion, drawing an orb to use it's power if i miss (like "Orb of Impenetrable Escape").




I've found mage hand to be sufficient to switch implements around as a minor action.  Or better yet, just wield two implements.  Apparently, according to both customer service and recent character build changes, you can dual wield a staff if using it an implement, so you can use any two implements you want already without the need for a feat or actions.

Ask your DM if you can have a Cunning Staff.  By the rules as written, quarterstaves can be used as an implement even if the enchantment on them isn't in the implement staff category (the FAQ on swordmages outlines what benefits you gain when you use a weapon as an implement - enhancment, crit, property, no weapon proficiency on attacks).   Customer Service has confirmed this (and with good consistency, unlike previous questions where you can sort of guide CS by phrasing the question) and the character builder allows this as well.

Keep in mind that Controller isn't just about attacking minions, attacking multiple foes, or inflicting status effects.  It's also about controlling the terrain and limiting the options of your enemies.  So Flaming Sphere IS a control spell since it occupies a square and limits the area that foes can reasonably occupy.  Ditto with Stinking Cloud.

Staff of Ruin is indeed the bees knees.  I heartily recommend it.


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## Ryujin (May 8, 2009)

If you're big on skills, don't rule out retraining Quick Draw to Bardic Knowledge after you get your MC. It gives +2 on multiple knowledges.


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## simen (May 8, 2009)

cdrcjsn said:


> I've found mage hand to be sufficient to switch implements around as a minor action.  Or better yet, just wield two implements.  Apparently, according to both customer service and recent character build changes, you can dual wield a staff if using it an implement, so you can use any two implements you want already without the need for a feat or actions.
> 
> Ask your DM if you can have a Cunning Staff.  By the rules as written, quarterstaves can be used as an implement even if the enchantment on them isn't in the implement staff category (the FAQ on swordmages outlines what benefits you gain when you use a weapon as an implement - enhancment, crit, property, no weapon proficiency on attacks).   Customer Service has confirmed this (and with good consistency, unlike previous questions where you can sort of guide CS by phrasing the question) and the character builder allows this as well.




Drawing with Quick Draw is a free action, and with all that sustaning a Wizard has to do free actions are always nice. Dropping something is free to, and then pick it up when I have the time (minor action). But if I don't need it I could just retrain it later 

You got an url to that? I've seen recent discussions about Cunning Quarterstaff and people saying that it isn't allowed. We play RAW, so unless it's RAW my DM won't allow it. Even though he might had agreed that it's unbalanced compared to Swordmage and Sorcerers that has a weapon as an implement.



Ryujin said:


> If you're big on skills, don't rule out retraining Quick Draw to Bardic Knowledge after you get your MC. It gives +2 on multiple knowledges.




Hadn't noticed that. That was a really great feat! Even a better reason to MC Bard with Wizard


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## UngeheuerLich (May 8, 2009)

cdrcjsn said:


> Ask your DM if you can have a Cunning Staff. By the rules as written, quarterstaves can be used as an implement even if the enchantment on them isn't in the implement staff category (the FAQ on swordmages outlines what benefits you gain when you use a weapon as an implement - enhancment, crit, property, no weapon proficiency on attacks). Customer Service has confirmed this (and with good consistency, unlike previous questions where you can sort of guide CS by phrasing the question) and the character builder allows this as well.




No, by the rules as written Staff can be used as quarterstaff but not vice versa. I don´t know if this is updated or errataed by customer service.


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## simen (May 8, 2009)

UngeheuerLich said:


> No, by the rules as written Staff can be used as quarterstaff but not vice versa. I don´t know if this is updated or errataed by customer service.




That's what I thought to. But, ofcourse, nothing would be better if it where allowed.


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## keterys (May 8, 2009)

UngeheuerLich said:


> No, by the rules as written Staff can be used as quarterstaff but not vice versa. I don´t know if this is updated or errataed by customer service.




The rules as written are perhaps less clear than you might think. A quarterstaff is in the staff weapon group, wizards may use a staff as an implement, by RAW a quarterstaff may be used. If you use the WotC character builder, it'll even automatically put the bonus into all your powers.

There will be tremendous table variance, though, because RAI are quite possibly (or even probably) the other way, with tremendous care to clarify that staff implements can be used as quarterstaffs in repeated places, but no talk of the reverse.


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## simen (May 8, 2009)

Where does it in the rules say that a Quarterstaff can be used as a Staff Implement? It says the other way around, that a Staff Implement can be used as a Quarterstaff, but not vica versa. Strange as i might saound, but that is RAW the way I see it. No one would be happier to be wrong in this issue than me if that is so 

It would be great if Wotc once and for all said yes or no to this in the Faq or with an errata.


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## ppaladin123 (May 9, 2009)

If you are worried about switching out implements during combat, take a disembodied hand as your familiar instead. It'll save you a feat.


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## simen (May 9, 2009)

I didn't find "Disembodied hand" in AP. And second, the Spider helps me with my controlling. I'm quoting...


```
You gain a +2 bonus to Climb checks. 
Enemies take a -1 penalty to saving throws against your arcane 
powers that immobilize or slow them.
```

I'll give you an example where i need Quickdraw...

I attack with Sleep using "Orb of Inescapable Consequences" holding a "Earthroot Staff" in my off-hand. Since Sleep has two save effects I can only use my "Orb of Imposition" and "Orb of Ultimate Imposition" on one of them, the unconscious part. To then get a lock the DM has to be unlucky and fail on hos saving throw for Slow, or I could Quickdraw "Orb of Karmic Resonance" and be sure he'll fail... This way I have a solo "unconscious" at level 11 using the powers and items discribed above and with "Spell Focus", Spider and "Phrenic Crown".


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## Stalker0 (May 9, 2009)

All knowing? Than take jack of all trades, one of the best feats in the game imo.


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## KarinsDad (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> I'll give you an example where i need Quickdraw...
> 
> I attack with Sleep using "Orb of Inescapable Consequences" holding a "Earthroot Staff" in my off-hand. Since Sleep has two save effects I can only use my "Orb of Imposition" and "Orb of Ultimate Imposition" on one of them, the unconscious part. To then get a lock the DM has to be unlucky and fail on hos saving throw for Slow, or I could Quickdraw "Orb of Karmic Resonance" and be sure he'll fail... This way I have a solo "unconscious" at level 11 using the powers and items discribed above and with "Spell Focus", Spider and "Phrenic Crown".




How is it that your DM is allowing you to take any broken magic item that you want (an Earthroot Staff is definitely broken and a Phrenic Crown is not far behind, and you forgot the Orb of Inescapable Consequences to ensure that your effect hits at all)?

Also, why would you even want to play a PC that can lock to the level you just described? I just don't get the attraction of "Sorry Mr. DM, I win and your solo loses, next challenge" whenever you want. Unlike cheat codes for a computer program where it is only the player himself, how do the encounters not get boring for everyone at the table when the PC Wizard repeatedly does this? The DM has to thrown in an extra foe every encounter, just to offset the Wizard lock and get back to a normally challenging encounter.


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## keterys (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> Where does it in the rules say that a Quarterstaff can be used as a Staff Implement?




Where does it say they can't?

Rule: p158 Wizard Implements "A wizard wielding a magic orb, staff, or wand can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of wizard powers"
Rule: p215 Weapon Groups "Weapon groups are families of weapons that share certain properties. They’re wielded similarly and are equally suited to certain kinds of attacks. In game terms, some powers and feats work only when you’re attacking with a weapon in a specific group."
Rule: p216 Definition of Staff Weapon Group "Staff: In its most basic form, a staff is a long piece of wood or some other substance, roughly the same
diameter along its whole length."
Rule: p218 Weapon Chart showing what weapon group a quarterstaff is in "Quarterstaff ... Staff" 

So, RAW the wizard may use a staff as an implement, and a quarterstaff most definitely is a staff. Ergo, RAW, they can use a Quarterstaff as an implement (or a Long Staff, Bo Staff, Three Piece Staff, or whatever other types of Staff may eventually be produced).

RAI? Hoo boy, I'll make no bets. Especially not after a WotC staffer posted that character builder adding quarterstaff enhancement bonuses to powers was intentional and correct - before that I might have guessed that RAI was that it didn't work. Did they put all that text in about staff implements also working as quarterstaves because they were trying to make people understand (poorly) that it was both a weapon and implement and the implement-only versions worked a little different, or were they trying to explain (poorly) that they were a completely separate beast from the staff weapon group?

Either way, the text for wizards using the staff weapon group is the same text that swordmages use to be able to use any, say, heavy blade as their implement/weapon, so in order to claim it doesn't work by RAW, you're also effectively claiming that swordmages can't use longswords for their implement powers - only 'Heavy Sword Implements', of which none have been published.


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## Flipguarder (May 9, 2009)

"Unlike other implements, a staff also
functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff ).
When used in melee, a staff applies its enhancement
bonus and critical damage dice just as a weapon does."

From the magic staff intro in the PHB pg 240
Technically ALL staves are quarterstaves unless it specifically says otherwise.


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## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2009)

keterys said:


> *snip*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KarinsDad (May 9, 2009)

keterys said:


> Where does it say they can't?
> 
> Rule: p158 Wizard Implements "A wizard wielding a magic orb, staff, or wand can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of wizard powers"
> Rule: p215 Weapon Groups "Weapon groups are families of weapons that share certain properties. They’re wielded similarly and are equally suited to certain kinds of attacks. In game terms, some powers and feats work only when you’re attacking with a weapon in a specific group."
> ...




This is a very liberal reading of RAW.

A "Staff Implement" can be used as a quarterstaff and its bonuses can be used for implement powers or melee attacks.

is not the same as

A "Quarterstaff Melee Weapon" is in the Staff weapon group and hence its bonuses can be used for implement powers or melee attacks.

In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a rule that says that a magical quarterstaff (e.g. a weapon like a +4 Cunning Staff) can be used for Wizard Implement powers. This is not true for such things as a longsword for a Wizard of the Spiral Tower where that ability is explicitly given.

I think Wizards have enough options without allowing them to use Cunning Weapons on their powers.



keterys said:


> Either way, the text for wizards using the staff weapon group is the same text that swordmages use to be able to use any, say, heavy blade as their implement/weapon, so in order to claim it doesn't work by RAW, you're also effectively claiming that swordmages can't use longswords for their implement powers - only 'Heavy Sword Implements', of which none have been published.




The text is not the same.



> Your blade adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a property (if applicable) when used as an implement.




This indicates that the melee weapon can be used as an implement (although it does not give all of the properties of the weapon when used as an implement, only extra damage properties).

The quarterstaff text and the staff implement text do not indicate that a quarterstaff can be used as an implement. Otherwise, the discussion would be moot. Your interpretation is derived from a bunch of rules because the text is insufficient.


Although WotC appears to be setting direction for this, I do not think that deriving rule x from 4 rules y should be the way to go.


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## ppaladin123 (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> I didn't find "Disembodied hand" in AP. And second, the Spider helps me with my controlling. I'm quoting...





It's in the article on arcane familiars from last month's dragon magazine. You should check that article out.


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## simen (May 9, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> It's in the article on arcane familiars from last month's dragon magazine. You should check that article out.




We don't use Dragon magazines. Not yet anyway  I don't see how that will save one feat anyway... Since you can only have one familiar and that spot is already taken. If not I could take "Disembodied Hand" (I found it's description online), but I still would have to use one feat in order to use a familiar 

About the whole Staff thing... Read it all before, and neither me or my DM are convinced that a magic Quarterstaff can function as a Staff Implement. But that day that is allowed through a FAQ or anything I'll just retrain the feat and use a Staff instead 

Re: KarinsDad

It's RAW. It been known for a very long time and Wotc have had a good time "fixing" this if they meant it was broken. We have decided to follow the rules (RAW)... If our DM suddendly start "that's OP, not legal" most of the players would probably stop playing. There are a lot of other good powers and synergies besides negative saving throws... The alternative is a boring game where all the powers do are damage and effects that end the next turn (like encounter powers most). So we are counting on Wotc to moderate us, even though they do a bad job at times they atleast are not taking "sides" and are somewhat neutral and everyone in my party follows and respect their rulings. At that topic, atleast I didn't take "Divine Oracle" PP and I only start with wis 14.

Edit: Anyway. What do you think about these stats?


```
str: 8
con: 13
dex: 15
int: 18
wis: 14
cha: 12
```

Yeah, I now odd numbers sucks but hear me out. I don't need higher wisdom than 20, so at 24 and 28 I can get dex/con even 

The question is. Wand or Staff? Or none? A wand could save me a daily magic item use, and with "Keeper's Prescience" (lvl 24) it would even be better... And do I even have to mention "Trick of Knowledge" which gives me +2 to attack (with my arcane bonus it does easily), and being invisible with "Vanishing Act" I get CA to. That's a nice odd of hitting, both to all and solo (wand). What do you think?


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## KarinsDad (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> About the whole Staff thing... Read it all before, and neither me or my DM are convinced that a magic Quarterstaff can function as a Staff Implement. But that day that is allowed through a FAQ or anything I'll just retrain the feat and use a Staff instead




Well, Character Builder does allow it.

The problem is that WotC is making decisions on the rules and adding new rules, but they are doing it through Character Builder and the Compendium and not in the Errata which I personally think sucks.



simen said:


> The alternative is a boring game where all the powers do are damage and effects that end the next turn (like encounter powers most).




The game is boring without the big reset button of "I win, the solo auto-loses"? Odd, but play the game however you want.



simen said:


> Edit: Anyway. What do you think about these stats?




They are fine. A lot of players in our game have odd stats. It allows for some builds without always pushing to the next even ability score.



simen said:


> The question is. Wand or Staff? Or none? A wand could save me a daily magic item use, and with "Keeper's Prescience" (lvl 24) it would even be better... And do I even have to mention "Trick of Knowledge" which gives me +2 to attack (with my arcane bonus it does easily), and being invisible with "Vanishing Act" I get CA to. That's a nice odd of hitting, both to all and solo (wand). What do you think?




Tome.


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## Hereticus (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> My Wizard Build, suggestions?




I would go about building a character in a completely different way... and perhaps we would have ended up with the exact same build.



simen said:


> First what this build is about.
> 
> - It's first role is a controller.
> 
> ...




Your character background consists of four short sentences, and it tells me almost nothing, other than how you want to fight in combat.

Before I construct a character, especially one that I plan to bring from first to 30th level, I go into alot of depth on it background. Once I have a personality and history worked out, then I start choosing feats and powers that match what I've described.

Role playing to me is about much more than a list of stats and abilities, and a kill list.


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## Hereticus (May 9, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> All knowing? Than take jack of all trades, one of the best feats in the game imo.




I have training in 7 of 17 feats... I could pretty much not give a darn about the other 10. Sure they would be helpful, but I play my character to have weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

As an Eladrin (1) Wizard (4), I started with training in five skills:
- Arcana (my bread and butter skill)
- Religion (more for extra-planar knowledge)
- Nature / Dungeoneering (I can get by on my own, without food handouts)
- Perception (it's a nasty world, I need to see it before it sees me)

Background - Arcana (see above)

Then I selected with advancement:
- 01: Improved initiative (survival may depend on going first)
- 02: Skill Training - Insight (I mistrust 100% of all non-eladrin)
- 04/06: Astral Fire & Burning Blizzard (all my attacks are fire & ice by design)
- 08: Skill Training - Bluff (for Disguise), to be changed to multi-class Feylock
- 10: Skill Focus - Arcana (I rock with this skill)
- 11: Spell Focus (poor sucker victims of my spells)
- 12: Arcane Reach (I am a deceptive prick)


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## Hereticus (May 9, 2009)

At-Will Powers:
- Magic Missile: to hit a target at 20.
- Scorching Burst: I like fire, and it does damage (range 10) on 3x3 squares.

Encounter Powers:
- Force Orb(1): Improved Magic Missile, damage (range 20) on 3x3 squares.
- Ice Rays(5): Cold damage (fire & ice thingy), can immobilize targets for Fighters to hack.
- Fire Burst(9): Fire damage, (range 20) on 5x5 squares.
- The One Sword(11): Weapon use is new for me.

Daily Powers:
- Flaming Sphere(1): Fire damage, I can move it between me and my enemies.
- Sleep(1): Even if it slows, battle is about mobility.
- Bigby's Icy Grasp(5): This is great, my favorite attack power.
- Fireball(5): I haven't used it yet, want to retrain.
- Mordenkainen's Sword(9): Good spell, but not my go-to power.
- Wall of Fire(9): I haven't used it yet, want to retrain.

Utility Powers:
- Fey Step(race): Best racial power, bar none.
- Feather Fall(2): a life saver.
- Shield(2): Saved me four times from hits as an interrupt, could have used it more.
- Disguise(6): Infiltration at its best, why I trained in Bluff skill.
- Invisibility(6): Saved our party from death twice, half the time I cast it on others.
- Arcane Gate(10): Great adventuring power, very helpful.
- Blur(10): Best defensive power, I stay five squares away and use Arcane Reach.
- Shape the Dream(12): Have not used yet, does not seem useful.

Next Encounter Power:
- Prismatic Burst(13): More for blinding than damage.


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## simen (May 9, 2009)

Hereticus said:


> Your character background consists of four short sentences, and it tells me almost nothing, other than how you want to fight in combat.




Actually I have a really long background story. But that is written i Norwegian... 

Tome? Shouldn't I had pumped my con a little more then? And I don't like the summoning stuff i 4e. Use my own actions to control my summons? Don't like it 

On "Jack of all trades". I have all the knowledge skills already. Arcana, Nature, Religion, Dungeoneering, History so I pretty much know as much as I can... And last I have Perception.


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## Hereticus (May 9, 2009)

simen said:


> Actually I have a really long background story. But that is written in Norwegian...




I can sympathize with not wanting to translate. As a native English speaker I had role played in Spanish.

My wife is a native Hungarian speaker, and she speaks a second language everyday and at work.

The point being, as you have also taken, is that a build should be based on a background that evolves as the character develops, and skills and powers should be chosen based on background with an eye on effectiveness.


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## UngeheuerLich (May 9, 2009)

Are you playing this wizard from level 1 on or do you start at level 30?

If you start at level 1 you should consider just stat him accordingly and play 

I have yet to see a a character which doesn´t advance in a total different way as it was "planned"... be it because of enemies fought, story reasons or magic items found... or roleto fit in the group...

ok, i admit it was in 3.x and often resulted in multiclassing (or not, when it was planned), but I imagine this will hold true for 4th edition as well...

As much fun it is to plan a character up to level 20(30), its usually wasted time...


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## Hereticus (May 9, 2009)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I have yet to see a a character which doesn´t advance in a total different way as it was "planned"... be it because of enemies fought, story reasons or magic items found... or roleto fit in the group...




Especially with a new system.

With my advancements, I often change my mind between levels. Very little goes as planned. And as you said, the character finds new ways of fitting in with and helping the group.

I've only played this one character for more than a few game sessions, we always have fond remembrances of our first...


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## BobTheNob (May 28, 2009)

KarinsDad said:


> Also, why would you even want to play a PC that can lock to the level you just described? I just don't get the attraction of "Sorry Mr. DM, I win and your solo loses, next challenge" whenever you want. Unlike cheat codes for a computer program where it is only the player himself, how do the encounters not get boring for everyone at the table when the PC Wizard repeatedly does this? The DM has to thrown in an extra foe every encounter, just to offset the Wizard lock and get back to a normally challenging encounter.




And herein lies the truth that all players need to learn. When you find something that breaks the game by making a character too powerful through certain combinations (/abuses), instead of saying "Sick, I can make a character that will screw up the game for everyone!", try bringing it up and work with the GM to find a way that the abuse can be prevented at the same time as the intetention(/application) of the feats/powers/whatever is maintained.

Orbizards and all save stacking builds needed gimping, so our group implemented that on a save, regardless of all other modifiers, a 15+ is an automatic save and a 5- is an automatic fail. If you have stacked numbers so that rule is gimping you (i.e. enemy save require > 15), well, shame on you for trying to spoil the game experience for everyone.


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## KarinsDad (May 29, 2009)

BobTheNob said:


> Orbizards and all save stacking builds needed gimping, so our group implemented that on a save, regardless of all other modifiers, a 15+ is an automatic save and a 5- is an automatic fail. If you have stacked numbers so that rule is gimping you (i.e. enemy save require > 15), well, shame on you for trying to spoil the game experience for everyone.




Interesting house rule. I might use this instead of the one we are currently using. Thanks.


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## GameJunkie (May 29, 2009)

Where is the save stacking with the Orb of Imposition?  All it says it that you can pick one subject to suffer a minus equal to a Wizard's Wisdom modifier for ONE effect.  At the very worst it would be -9 if you min/maxed Wisdom.  But I see no problem with -5 given that most logical wizard builds not out to optimize would start at 14(16) if Deva and top out at 22(24) which only gives a -6/-7 at level 26.  So I can live with your 5-10 percent nerf.

As a player I am not into character optimization nor are any of the players I have run games for.  I find starting with the basic starting array adding your race mods and letting the stat boosts come make for characters that are quite strong at the epic levels without the possible crazy builds that ran rampant in 3.5.

Do what I do and have another solo show up in the same encounter after the first has been locked down.  If you find that the Orb Wizard is spamming with a favorite effect.  Character Optimization can be a fun exercise but I find them to be one trick ponies, they leave holes.  Holes I use to punish them.  Alternately I would only change it to -6 given it has more symetry with the highest magic buffs you can have in the game via magic items.


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## KarinsDad (May 29, 2009)

GameJunkie said:


> Where is the save stacking with the Orb of Imposition?  All it says it that you can pick one subject to suffer a minus equal to a Wizard's Wisdom modifier for ONE effect.  At the very worst it would be -9 if you min/maxed Wisdom.  But I see no problem with -5 given that most logical wizard builds not out to optimize would start at 14(16) if Deva and top out at 22(24) which only gives a -6/-7 at level 26.  So I can live with your 5-10 percent nerf.




The issue is not just with Orb of Imposition and high Wisdom, but also with certain items and feats and powers.

Spell Focus
Earthroot Staff
Phrenic Crown 
Orb of Inescapable Consequences
Cunning Weapon

In fact, a Staff Wizard can lock down quite nicely, it doesn't have to be an Orb Wizard.

A Swordmage can lock down with Fate Spurned Foe (IIRC). There are a lot of combos here.

His house rule takes care of all such permanent or semi-permanent lock down (or even auto-save) possibilities without totally nerfing the concepts.


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## GameJunkie (May 29, 2009)

KarinsDad said:


> The issue is not just with Orb of Imposition and high Wisdom, but also with certain items and feats and powers.
> 
> Spell Focus
> Earthroot Staff
> ...



I got you.  I said I liked it but for my games I will bump it to 16 or maybe >19 given level 26 Wizards better be able lock down things if they KNOW what they fighting EXACTLY (like that will happen without some work and that said monster couldn't use a ritual or three themselves to change the goalposts) if I use it.  Fits my sense of symetry better.  Haven't had the chance to get those items as a player and haven't given them out as a DM yet.  I have been lucky because the people I run game for don't look to optimize.

I suppose you could have the "help" come in and geek the mage if need be but yeah -5/-6 works for me.  Even though none of this is relevent until you well into Epic level.


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## Particle_Man (May 29, 2009)

Victim said:


> Why not start with Cleric Multiclass instead of skill training?  It gets you religion either way, plus an emergency heal.




And you can get the Divine Oracle paragon path, which is amazing.  Reroll attacks vs. Will, NEVER get surprised (nor do nearby allies get surprised), a nice leader power, and the daily can be "taken back" if you miss.


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