# Thirteenth Doctor - First Season - Thoughts?  (SPOILERS WELCOME)



## Richards (Oct 7, 2018)

So, the first episode of the new season of _Doctor Who_ was just simulcast around the globe.  (If you missed it, BBC America's showing it multiple times for the rest of the day - I'm not sure about BBC.)  In any case, what were your thoughts?

(By the way, if you missed it in the thread title, SPOILERS ARE WELCOME.)

I thought Jodie did a fine job in the episode and it seems like she'll be a good Doctor.  She had some great lines ("Empty pockets?  I hate empty pockets!") and did a good job in the role thus far.  Of course, the first episode of any new regeneration of the Doctor tends to be a bit wonky, as the new personality hasn't entirely kicked in yet.  It'll be interesting to see how she plays the role once the regeneration has time to finish in its entirety.

As for the story, it seemed kind of "just okay."  Not the most exciting of plotlines - kind of a watered-down "Predator," really, with a less interesting alien.  And there were a few bits that seemed contrived, like the Doctor whipping up a new sonic screwdriver from scratch.  (I know there was alien technology there in that garage, but still.)  Also, I was led to believe these were going to be 10 standalone episodes, so ending it on a cliffhanger like that was kind of jarring - added by the fact that on the original broadcast on BBC America at least, we didn't get a set of closing credits, just the shot of the Doctor and her three new "accidental" companions (although apparently they're just going to be referred to as "friends" now) hanging out in space, then a commercial break, and then a discussion panel that made me wonder if the episode was really over or not.  Apparently it was.  Not really my idea of "standalone."

So, my overall impressions: kind of a weak story line, but a strong first impression by the new Doctor.  I have high hopes for the season; after all, Peter Capaldi was a great Doctor but he was burdened with some sub-par story lines as well (and a few that were just outright terrible).

Johnathan


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## Morrus (Oct 7, 2018)

I never like the new Doctor amnesia stuff. But she was great. She's closest to Tennant, if I were to compare her to previous Doctors, but I'm sure she'll put her own solid stamp on it soon enough.

Loved the old school 60s/70s style theme tune. Still not sold on Bradley Walsh.


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## jonesy (Oct 7, 2018)

It was no The Eleventh Hour, but neither was it a Twin Dilemma, so that's good. It was an alright opening and I really like the new Doctor.

Was that really the first time we've seen a sonic screwdriver built from scratch?

The spoon! 

Her delight at being told she's a woman. And "Does this suit me?"


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## Aeson (Oct 7, 2018)

Yes spoilers below.

Going in I kept hoping she was chosen because she was the best person for the role, and not some random name drawn from a fez of only actresses. Hard to be sure she is the right one without knowing who else was in the running. 
So far none of them are annoying. Donna and Nardol (sp?) being the base line for annoying IMO. The alien hunter could have left the mask on. Would have been much cooler and mysterious. When he took it off, I wasn't shocked, but disappointed. I was amused by her build montage, then it didn't work just right, kinda like her. To me it was a nice analog. Each Doctor has their own. I think this is the first time seeing a Doctor fashion one. Once she was finished, it fizzled, like her.

I was pleased with it over all. She made a grand entrance. There was humor. There was a touch of the feels when Grace died. Some action. The Doctor makes a speech at the alien. Doctor saves the day. Had everything expected from Doctor Who.


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## jonesy (Oct 7, 2018)

Aeson said:


> The alien hunter could have left the mask on. Would have been much cooler and mysterious. When he took it off, I wasn't shocked, but disappointed.



Now that you say that, yeah, you're right. Since we're doing Predator the un-masking has a pretty high bar to get over.


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2018)

The initial new-Doctor monsters are always a bit throw-away.

Eccleston -- wheelie bins and a puddle of ooze

Tennant -- pyjamas, sleeps all episode, then sword fighting an alien leader (the best of the intros, I guess)

Smith -- a big eyeball who runs away when he says who he is

Capaldi -- I can't even remember!

Whittaker -- alien with teeth in his face

I'm not fond of the amnesia/confusion thing they usually do. The initial episode is always a throwaway villain, confusion, speech, end.

Can't wait to see her settle into the role. She's off to a great start. I really enjoyed her performance, and she sold me as the Doctor.


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## Aeson (Oct 8, 2018)

Wasn't Capaldi running around like a Mad Scot? Madame Vastra doing most of the heavy lifting and a T Rex stomping around London?


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## trappedslider (Oct 8, 2018)

I don't mind the confusion because it's a new body and  at this point roughly 98% of the fan base would be wanting some sort of explanation or a handwave of some sort if it were done any other way.

It will be fun to watch her grow into the role even if she STILL isn't ginger lol


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## delericho (Oct 8, 2018)

It was better than Colin Baker's first episode.

Slightly.


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## carrot (Oct 8, 2018)

Whittaker was fine, but I'm not entirely sold on the "friends" - the most interesting one was killed off! 

It was a pretty "meh" intro episode, but I've missed the old-skool cliff-hangers, so it was nice to see one again! It'll be interesting to see how this develops.


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## Janx (Oct 8, 2018)

We watched in the BBC America thing last night.  Don't recall seeing any theme music, like they skipped or cut it for their special stuff.

I hate to sound all picky, but I had time to process.

The hunter is a Tooth Fairy, we just got the legend wrong. 

The women in my viewing party came to the conclusion that the new Sonic, looks...stimulating.

Why was there a tangle-monster at the crane?  They'd zapped and drained the first one.  Then it (or another) shows up and Grace gets killed while zapping it, and it's wasn't clear what danger it actually presented.

If the Doctor removed the collar bone bombs, then why did Grace think hers was going to go off a screen cut later?

What happened to Karl after the Doctor said "You had no right to do that."

What kind of warrior race sends out hunters to hunt the lamest prey?  What kind of test is that?

We actually enjoyed the episode, but parts seemed choppy or poorly explained (like the 2nd tentacle ball, and bombs).


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## HawaiiSteveO (Oct 8, 2018)

Little exposition happy during exchanges with bad guy, otherwise thought it was great . JW is fantastic and I can’t wait to see what’s up this time around.


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## Umbran (Oct 8, 2018)

jonesy said:


> Was that really the first time we've seen a sonic screwdriver built from scratch?




Yes.  In fact, when we see the War Doctor, it is very specifically a plot point that through all the other regenerations and changes, the sonic screwdriver is the *same* item, same internal hardware and software in a new casing. 

It is likely a highly symbolic point.  We have new people producing, new people writing, new people directing a new Doctor with new Companions.  Also note that at least for the first season, we are told we won't be seeing any of the monsters or nemeses of the past.


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## Istbor (Oct 8, 2018)

Awww.  But I am jonesing for some EXTERMINATE! Battle cries. Say it isn't so Umbran!


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## Eltab (Oct 8, 2018)

My wife watched and was happy that they decided not to step on any of the cultural landmines "because this Doctor is a woman!".  Let her be the Doctor and it will go fine.

Finding her new wardrobe was a highlight of veiled references to previous Doctors' attire.

(Neither of us have seen Predator, so we didn't recognize that plotline reference.)

We can finally understand what the Doctor is saying!  Capaldi tended to mumble or "think out loud to himself" and the sound crew never did adjust for that.


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## Janx (Oct 8, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Awww.  But I am jonesing for some EXTERMINATE! Battle cries. Say it isn't so Umbran!




if this was a Moffat operation, you could at least rest easy, knowing that anything Moffat says about the show will be contradicted later.


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## Ryujin (Oct 8, 2018)

I very much liked the general tone and feel. Bodes well for what's to come, I think.


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## Jester David (Oct 8, 2018)

First episodes are tricky. I'd rate Whittaker's high. 

The introduction of Eccleston and Tennant were all about Rose with the Doctor just being in the background. 
Capaldi was running around dealing with more bodypart-stealing clockwork robots. Which worked thematically, as it was all about if you replace all your bodyparts a dozen times are you still the same person?
Smith's is the high water mark, as he has to save the world while relying just on himself with no TARDIS or screwdriver or resources. And the transition image of all the Doctors was neat. 

This episode did an excellent job of introducing four new characters _and_ the Doctor without focusing solely on one character. We learned rapid fire what Ryan and Yas and Graham's stories are while also having the Doctor at the front _and_ giving a speech about changing while being true to yourself. It handled a lot very elegantly. 


I like how they jumped right in and let the show build without a title sequence. But I wished they'd have ended with the title sequence.
Especially in place of the boring and masturbatory long, long list of upcoming guest stars. Yaaaaawn. I have never cared about guest stars. This isn’t _The Simpsons_; they don’t need to trick people into watching with the promise of some celeb or name. That was lame.


Given she wasn't a "companion", I saw the death of Nan coming, and was preemptively sad. Especially as it didn’t seem to have any impact on the story. She just rushes in to help and dies, but her victory seems unnecessary. 

I quite like how the group gets pulled together at the end. It sets up the fun story of trying to get them home, which is a regular theme of classic _Doctor Who_ that we haven’t seen recently. Very Ian and Barbara, Tegan, or even arguably Peri or Ace. Which is fun and adds a neat dynamic to the stories, which is a nice change from the presentation of travelling with the Doctor as this addictive lifestyle we've seen in the last few incarnations. 
(I've always seen travelling in the TARDIS as being like backpacking across Europe. It's fun and thrilling, but eventually you just want to return home and settle down.)

I also like how the TARDIS didn’t just magic back at the end, and had to be hunted for. (But I'm jonesing to see interior. I hope we retain a more mechanical inside and don't get a return to the junkyard design.) I wonder how long they can keep the Doctor away from their TARDIS. 

The alien was unremarkable. Gross, but not very memorable. And the hook of the super cold alien that can kill with a touch wasn’t played up nearly enough. That could have been much more interesting, with frost forming where he walked (especially when he entered a puddle). Most of the time they were just generic black armour dude running around in an underlit area. 


And, as I have said elsewhere, I wish the Doctor had a collared shirt. The current look is too casual and too much like a costume. The Doctor works best when they look more anachronistic and less wearing a funny suit to be weird. They looked so much better in Doctor Twelves' rags than the T-shirt and ridiculously short pants.


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## Jester David (Oct 8, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Awww.  But I am jonesing for some EXTERMINATE! Battle cries. Say it isn't so Umbran!



I'm okay with all new monsters for a bit. I don't think they _need_ to jump into having Cybermen and Daleks right away. That can come later. 
The Third Doctor went two years with all new monsters.


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## MarkB (Oct 8, 2018)

I downloaded the episode on iPlayer. When it opened with the fake Youtube blog, I spent the first ten seconds trying to work out how to re-maximise the window.


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## Jester David (Oct 8, 2018)

MarkB said:


> I downloaded the episode on iPlayer. When it opened with the fake Youtube blog, I spent the first ten seconds trying to work out how to re-maximise the window.




I shouldn't laugh at this, but it seems like something I would have done.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 8, 2018)

I feel like if you're going to start off introducing a character by having his grandmother die being heroic, you ought to make it clearer what she's accomplishing with her heroism. The lightning-tentacle thing was just kinda chillin' out there, and there didn't seem to be any urgency.

Aside from that, I had a fun time.


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I'm okay with all new monsters for a bit. I don't think they _need_ to jump into having Cybermen and Daleks right away. That can come later.
> The Third Doctor went two years with all new monsters.




Daleks lose their potency when they're defeated twice a year.


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## Umbran (Oct 9, 2018)

Janx said:


> if this was a Moffat operation, you could at least rest easy, knowing that anything Moffat says about the show will be contradicted later.




But, of course, it isn't.  Moffat's last episode was the 2017 X-mas special, and he has moved on.  Chris Chibnall is now head writer and executive producer.


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## Umbran (Oct 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Still not sold on Bradley Walsh.




The actor, or the character.

As I was watching, I was thinking, "Oh, yeah, here's how we know Companions.  They are the ones that walk *toward* the weird space things."

And then here's this guy who... doesn't.  He has a normal, credible amount of fear of things that go ZAP! in the night.  I find that... refreshing.  They will have a balancing act over the man's fears vs staying with the Doctor, but if they can pull it off, it is markedly different perspective than we usually get.


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## Tonguez (Oct 9, 2018)

I really liked this Doctor and thought she caught the manic genius vibe of Tenant well. I enjoy too how they referenced her being a woman (even throwing in the shopping 'joke' at the end) but overall making it irrelevant to her being the Doctor.

The companions are all a bit boring but I was also amused by the use of the Bus Drivers network and a Social Media search to locate 'strange activity around Sheffeild" - it reminded me of Wilfred Mott (Donnas Granddad) and his network. I wonder too if social media is going to play a big role in this season too.

Overall a solid Doctor Who episode, though nothing particularly noteworthy happened.


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## Morrus (Oct 9, 2018)

Umbran said:


> The actor, or the character.




The actor. I associate him with daytime quiz shows. I’m sure my perception will change over the coming weeks.


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## Jester David (Oct 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> The actor. I associate him with daytime quiz shows. I’m sure my perception will change over the coming weeks.




It's not like we haven't had to work against preconceptions of companions based on past careers before...

[video=youtube_share;YECHW8BxqNg]https://youtu.be/YECHW8BxqNg[/video]


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## Morrus (Oct 9, 2018)

Jester David said:


> It's not like we haven't had to work against preconceptions of companions based on past careers before...




I didn't know who she was before she appeared in Doctor Who. Not really the sort of music I tend to be around!


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## Umbran (Oct 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> The actor. I associate him with daytime quiz shows.




Oh.  Yeah, I can see that could be a bit distracting.  

I now have this image of Alex Trebek showing up in Star Trek: Discovery, or something like that.


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## Tonguez (Oct 9, 2018)

theres always this
[video=youtube;JixgZeQyyY0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JixgZeQyyY0[/video]

and I'm so hoping that we get an episode called The Chase where Bradley has to face off against a mastermind known as the Beast in order to save the other companions

(oh and the Rose character wasnt that different from Billie Pipers persona - she too was a bit of a Chav from down the fish shop)


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## Eltab (Oct 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Daleks lose their potency when they're defeated twice a year.




Or psychoanalyzed into wanting to ex-ter-min-ate the other Daleks, all by their lonesome.
(Would the Doctor recognize if she met THAT one again?)


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## Richards (Oct 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I now have this image of Alex Trebek showing up in Star Trek: Discovery, or something like that.




He did show up in an episode of _The X-Files_, but that was actually a plot point: the shadowy government figures were implanting a memory of Alex Trebek as one of the Men in Black, so anyone remembering the incident and trying to tell anyone about it would be dismissed as a lunatic.  (The other "memory-implanted" Man in Black was Jesse Ventura.)

Johnathan


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## Morrus (Oct 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Oh.  Yeah, I can see that could be a bit distracting.
> 
> I now have this image of Alex Trebek showing up in Star Trek: Discovery, or something like that.




Well if he did, I’m sure I wouldn’t notice. Never heard of him.


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## Umbran (Oct 10, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Well if he did, I’m sure I wouldn’t notice. Never heard of him.




Yep.  Just like I've never heard of this dude.  Quiz shows don't generally span oceans.

Alex Trebek is the host of "Jeopardy!" a quiz show famous on this side of the pond, so I'm thinking it is pretty analogous.


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## MarkB (Oct 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Yep.  Just like I've never heard of this dude.  Quiz shows don't generally span oceans.
> 
> Alex Trebek is the host of "Jeopardy!" a quiz show famous on this side of the pond, so I'm thinking it is pretty analogous.




I didn't recognise him either - just haven't watched enough daytime TV, I guess.

I did struggle a bit at first with Catherine Tate as Donna Noble, as I'd been completely unimpressed by the few comedy show performances I'd seen from her, but I ended up really liking her as a companion, and being genuinely saddened by the unhappy conclusion to her story.


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## Mallus (Oct 10, 2018)

Richards said:


> He did show up in an episode of _The X-Files_, but that was actually a plot point: the shadowy government figures were implanting a memory of Alex Trebek as one of the Men in Black, so anyone remembering the incident and trying to tell anyone about it would be dismissed as a lunatic.  (The other "memory-implanted" Man in Black was Jesse Ventura.)



"I said he _looked_ like Alex Trebek". 

"Jose Chung's From Outer Space" is one of the finest hours of television ever produced. Jodie Whittaker's first outing as The Doctor isn't quite as good, but very good nonetheless. 

I'll keep this short: the cast is immediately likable and Whittaker is fantastic, esp. while blowtorching up a new sonic. But the best part was how in the span of an hour they staked out a new tone and reduced scope for the post-Moffat era. The episode was paced and shot more like a thriller or a procedural and it featured a Doctor was wasn't nigh-omniscient - like it was great she didn't immediately rattle off facts about Tim Staw's species, she seemed legitimately not to know something.

edit: and while the diversity of the cast is getting a lot of attention, what stood out for me was Chibnall's interest in class. I like media to have a point of view. I hope this is an ongoing feature during his run.


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## Janx (Oct 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Yep.  Just like I've never heard of this dude.  Quiz shows don't generally span oceans.
> 
> Alex Trebek is the host of "Jeopardy!" a quiz show famous on this side of the pond, so I'm thinking it is pretty analogous.




and to catch up our non-US friends, here's a music video to recap the whole concept of Jeopardy 

[video=youtube;BvUZijEuNDQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUZijEuNDQ[/video]


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## jonesy (Oct 11, 2018)

Janx said:


> and to catch up our non-US friends, here's a music video to recap the whole concept of Jeopardy
> 
> [video=youtube;BvUZijEuNDQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUZijEuNDQ[/video]




Alfred Yankovic? Alfred? He's Weird Alfred? Somehow I never knew that that was where Al came from.


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## Umbran (Oct 11, 2018)

jonesy said:


> Alfred Yankovic? Alfred? He's Weird Alfred? Somehow I never knew that that was where Al came from.




You figure'd it was Aloysius, maybe?


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## Kaodi (Oct 13, 2018)

I think I must have missed part two because I do not remember Grace dying or seeing the TARDIS in the hour and a half I watched. Which I suppose is fine, I have never really watched much Doctor Who. Watched first half a season of Eccleston, a couple of Tennant and Smith here and there, the first episode of Capaldi and now the first episode of Whittaker.

Edit: And I think I watched a bit when I was a kid too. Like, I remember something about a tower and, I think, Daleks.


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## Morrus (Oct 14, 2018)

Kaodi said:


> I think I must have missed part two because I do not remember Grace dying or seeing the TARDIS in the hour and a half I watched.




There was only one part. There was no TARDIS. And it was only an hour long. Grace did die though.


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## Kaodi (Oct 14, 2018)

Well it is on the PVR so I can go back and rewatch the end I guess, lol.


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## Morrus (Oct 14, 2018)

Episode 2. Mixed feelings.

I wasn’t keen on defeatist Doctor; and the fact that they are only alive because of a 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion chance of a passing spaceship picking them up in space. Both undermine the Doctor to me.

Theme tune — awesomeness still. I love it. Less bombastic than recent years, and more mysterious. 

What did you guys think of the new TARDIS interior? I loved it when the TARDIS gave her a biscuit as they dematerialised. Not super sold on the decor yet, but we’ll see.


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## jonesy (Oct 14, 2018)

I like the color scheme. Very pneumatic control panel. Does the symbol repeated on the walls mean something special?



Morrus said:


> ..and the fact that they are only alive because of a 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion chance of a passing spaceship picking them up in space.



That was very Hitchhiker's Guide-like (I seem to recall that happening multiple times throughout them books).

Where did the spectacles come from?


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## Jester David (Oct 15, 2018)

Okay episode. 
The hook of the race across the planet with a deadly obstacle course was fun. But because it was a single episode and so much was devoted to character moments, introductions, getting used to alien planets, and the history of the world (with more set-up for the lame badguy species) there was only a couple real death traps. That could have been a lot more interesting as an overland dungeon crawl with lots of little traps and puzzles to overcome. 
And the "tie" ending was so-so, since I didn't really want  selfish dude to "win". We never got a sense of what he'd do with the money. 

The TARDIS. It's... okay. I like the columns around the console (very 8th Doctor) and the heavy metal walls are interesting. But the crystal console is so-so. Very clearly designed to "match" the sonic screwdriver, which wasn't created by the TARDIS and has no connection to the TARDIS. 
I was a big fan of the technological late-Smith and Capaldi TARDIS. Where it looked like a spaceship and not like a set designer went to a thrift shop. Didn't get enough of a look at the console to see if it still had the "junkyard" look, but the crystal stuff seemed excessive. 

I agree with Morrus that the new opening theme is neat, and a very mysterious and less operatic version. I dig.



jonesy said:


> Where did the spectacles come from?



Yeah, I wondered as well. Especially since "empty pockets" was just such a running joke of the previous episode.


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## Jester David (Oct 15, 2018)

Tour of the TARDIS
https://twitter.com/i/status/1051561590334648321


Also:
[video=youtube_share;7lUz0xU5d9g]https://youtu.be/7lUz0xU5d9g[/video]


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## Hussar (Oct 15, 2018)

Whoa, love that opening.  Haven't seen these yet.  I'm waiting for them to be released in Japan with subtitles so I can watch them with my daughters together.

But, I have to say that this is VERY refreshing.  For some bizarre reason, my Youtube home channel has been absolutely bombarded with youtube pundits kvetching about the fact that this is a woman doctor and how that's the destruction of western civilization.  

Seeing you folks respond here really makes me hope for humanity again.


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## trappedslider (Oct 15, 2018)

Just watched it, it was good. However maybe I'm just reacting this way due to the previous show runners but it seems like there was a throw away line that could be a set up for more "Timeless Child".


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## delericho (Oct 15, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Yeah, I wondered as well. Especially since "empty pockets" was just such a running joke of the previous episode.




There was a line about halfway in about her remembering that she'd put things in them.


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## Tonguez (Oct 15, 2018)

The Tardis design was a bit too industrial for my liking, although the crystal pillars around the console were an interesting touch. Also the theme music really invoked the Tom Baker era to me.

I did like the mystery of the planet and the Amazing Race set up of it all. It was remeniscent of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and the fatalism of the two guest stars was compelling. I wonder if the Strenza are going to be a recurring element in this series arc and of course the dirty rags naming the Timeless Child sets up a new engima that reminds me of Nigtmare Child and the whole arc that lead up to the Time War.

I did like the Antiques Roadshow quip.


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## Richards (Oct 16, 2018)

I'm not a fan of the new TARDIS interior.  (Why does a technological marvel like the TARDIS need an hourglass as part of its control console?)  I also didn't particularly like this episode, from the last two competitors of a race with a fabulous prize acting like partners pretty much the whole way through (I'm surprised neither of them decided to try to beat the other to the finish ever at any point throughout the episode - especially when the female contestant's entire family's lives are on the line); to the obvious set-up with the cigar ("We're spending an awful lot of time discussing this cigar, so you know it's going to be an important plot point later on the episode"); to the game organizer backing down and allowing a tie after a threat to his life when it's already been established that he's just a hologram and is actually perfectly safe several star systems away (and one of the richest men in the galaxy - surely he can afford adequate security to protect him from a game show contestant).

I hope the quality's going to improve here at some point in the next eight episodes, because we've now been handed two "meh" episodes in a row.  That's not a great start.  Jodie deserves better material to work with.

Johnathan


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## jonesy (Oct 16, 2018)

Richards said:


> (Why does a technological marvel like the TARDIS need an hourglass as part of its control console?)



Maybe it's a random number generator?

https://hackaday.com/2009/12/21/a-random-usb-hourglass/


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## jonesy (Oct 16, 2018)

It occurs to me that Whittaker looks like William Hartnell's granddaughter.


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## Nagol (Oct 16, 2018)

So I had a chance to watch the first two episodes.

The first episode was a mixed bag.  I was unimpressed by the "fall from orbit" resolution of the reveal at the Christmas special.  The direction/editing seemed really choppy.  The death of Grace seemed both pointless and unnecessary since it had been resolved the mass of cables was a sensing device and pointless to attack.  Tossing the Doctor and her new friends back into space was eye rolling.

The second episode was a bit better plot-wise.  By not relying on the Doctor, allies, or even enemies, the rescues from space felt off.  The Doctor may be lucky, but its not her defining characteristic.  I guess Whittaker's incarnation could have been very short indeed without quadrillion to 1 odds turning up?  I didn't like the sudden defeat in the Doctors voice towards the end of the episode when the TARDIS wasn't immediately apparent.  I thought the interior was different, but not really an improvement.  I really didn't like the new rendition of the credit score.

Overall I really like Whittaker's portrayal of the Doctor.  It's probably my second favourite of the "new" Doctors just behind Tennant.  I hope the writing and direction step up.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Rosa Parks.

I was uneasy about this one. I expected the usual Who formula of an alien being coincidently doing things around a historical person, who is likely influenced by the Doctor and/of companions to do their notable historic deed.

Instead, we got a much more traditional time travel story about preventing tampering, while also addressing racism. 

That was a great and highly enjoyable episode. Blew me away. All the characters seemed to get a moment, and a spotlight scene or two (even Yaz, who is still the weak link in terms of attention). Different tone yet very much still a Doctor Who episode with several nods to the past without being incomprehensible to new viewers. Continuity done well.

Best of the season so far.


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## Ryujin (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Rosa Parks.
> 
> I was uneasy about this one. I expected the usual Who formula of an alien being coincidently doing things around a historical person, who is likely influenced by the Doctor and/of companions to do their notable historic deed.
> 
> ...




It was also the most brutally honest about history episode that I can recall from any of the doctors, as far back as Pertwee.


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2018)

It was very good, with some excellent performances. I felt it was let down a little by the villain himself, who just felt a bit like a placeholder, but the primary cast was excellent.


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## jonesy (Oct 22, 2018)

I really liked the episode. The characters are getting settled in faster than I'd expected.

The Doctor is Banksy? 



Jester David said:


> All the characters seemed to get a moment, and a spotlight scene or two (even Yaz, who is still the weak link in terms of attention).



"Did you just accidentally pay me a compliment?" 

"The same idea?"


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2018)

One thing I found quite compelling was the unpleasant realisation that the Doctor and Graham needed to *be* the white people taking up the space so the driver had to tell Parks to move. You could see they so wanted to help, but knew they couldn't.

It was important that they didn't make to that the Doctor inspired Parks, or caused the events, or anything like that. It was a strong choice to have nobody even really notice the Doctor, and for none of the primary characters agency to be altered or reduced. They all made the choices and did the things they did on their own initiative, and the Doctor had nothing to do that. Instead, she was busy dealing with a time traveller and ensuring he didn't stop it, while staying out of the way.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 22, 2018)

Yeah, there were so many ways the episode could have gone wrong by making the Doctor the driving force behind Rosa Parks's action. So glad they didn't. Excellent television! 

(And so glad Moffat wasn't around for this one. As much as I love his work on Who, I don't think he could have resisted the urge to make the Doctor the protagonist)


----------



## Nutation (Oct 22, 2018)

We need occasional Black Orchid-style historicals. This one was a bit heavy-handed on the sociology, but I expected that going in.

I enjoyed seeing Krasko (who couldn't do violence against people) use essentially the Doctor's methods against her - clever little things that disrupt. Well, smashing the bus doesn't fit that description, but neither does the Doctor jumping on Krasko's time bracelet.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Oct 22, 2018)

Man that was really good, well done! 

That song at the end - I think I had something in my eye 

[video=youtube;kNKu1uNBVkU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNKu1uNBVkU[/video]


----------



## MarkB (Oct 22, 2018)

Morrus said:


> It was very good, with some excellent performances. I felt it was let down a little by the villain himself, who just felt a bit like a placeholder, but the primary cast was excellent.




It felt like it needed some kind of epilogue to it, showing where/when he ended up, hopefully in some form of ironic-justice context. The fact that we didn't get one suggests that we may see him again.


----------



## jonesy (Oct 22, 2018)

[video=youtube;JuvI92-K510]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuvI92-K510[/video]

This is not a fan video. This is really what BBC America posted on their Youtube page.


----------



## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I felt it was let down a little by the villain himself, who just felt a bit like a placeholder, but the primary cast was excellent.



_Doctor Who_
Where a white supremacist trying to derail the civil rights movement isn't "evil" enough.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> _Doctor Who_
> Where a white supremacist trying to derail the civil rights movement isn't "evil" enough.




Those quote marks are misplaced. That is not what I said.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 22, 2018)

One question about the bad guy — why didn’t he just send Rosa Parks back in time? He couldn’t harm her, but he could send people back in time. Seems a much easier way to accomplish his aims.


----------



## Richards (Oct 23, 2018)

I wondered that myself.

Johnathan


----------



## jonesy (Oct 23, 2018)

Morrus said:


> One question about the bad guy — why didn’t he just send Rosa Parks back in time? He couldn’t harm her, but he could send people back in time. Seems a much easier way to accomplish his aims.



I can just see it. Rosa Parks arrives to the moment the very first slave ship arrives to America, and somehow ends up ending slavery on the continent before it even begins.


----------



## Nagol (Oct 23, 2018)

How did the bad guy recognize and correctly name the TARDIS and not know who the Doctor is?


----------



## Hussar (Oct 23, 2018)

Nagol said:


> How did the bad guy recognize and correctly name the TARDIS and not know who the Doctor is?




Well, it is supposed to be the first female incarnation of the Doctor, so, I could see not knowing who she is.  Also, it goes back to River Song not knowing who the Peter Capaldi doctor was too.  There are only supposed to be 13 Doctors (well, a bit less than that) so, any Doctor going forward might not actually be recognized the way the others were.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 23, 2018)

Wasn't Krasko's time gun set to send people into the future before Ryan messed with it?  I also loved the dig at the TVM still being junk when it comes to time traveling lol


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 23, 2018)

I'm really impressed by the episode, most Doctor History episodes are iconoclasmic romps but this one managed to be respectful and well researched (even including her NAACP Youth Council links). The cast were good, they managed to give the subject of racism gravitas while also working in a couple of jokes, a bit of social commentary and a closing tribute.

Well done



Morrus said:


> One question about the bad guy — why didn’t he just send Rosa Parks back in time? He couldn’t harm her, but he could send people back in time. Seems a much easier way to accomplish his aims.




I'm assuming its the same logic that makes the Weeping Angels bad - they don't actually kill you, they just "take your life away", I can accept the inhibitor accounting for that too


----------



## delericho (Oct 23, 2018)

That was a great episode. Certainly the best of the three so far, and perhaps even the best of the entire revived series. But it certainly wasn't easy viewing.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 23, 2018)

Morrus said:


> One thing I found quite compelling was the unpleasant realisation that the Doctor and Graham needed to *be* the white people taking up the space so the driver had to tell Parks to move. You could see they so wanted to help, but knew they couldn't.
> 
> It was important that they didn't make to that the Doctor inspired Parks, or caused the events, or anything like that. It was a strong choice to have nobody even really notice the Doctor, and for none of the primary characters agency to be altered or reduced. They all made the choices and did the things they did on their own initiative, and the Doctor had nothing to do that. Instead, she was busy dealing with a time traveller and ensuring he didn't stop it, while staying out of the way.



It would have been kinda funny if they didn't realize what was up, and the Doctor would just give up her spot for Rosa Parks, only to realize she just has screwed up the timeline and has to fix things.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## Morrus (Oct 24, 2018)

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 102662




An American clearly made that.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 24, 2018)

what's a cookie?


----------



## Morrus (Oct 24, 2018)

That's a custard cream (my favourite biscuit, but the way, followed by the bourbon cream).


----------



## Nagol (Oct 24, 2018)

Morrus said:


> An American clearly made that.




North American anyway.  Canadians call them cookies too.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 24, 2018)

Nagol said:


> North American anyway.  Canadians call them cookies too.




My sympathies.


----------



## Nagol (Oct 24, 2018)

Morrus said:


> My sympathies.




Pants are outer wear, cars don't have boots, and we gave up torches for flashlights when electricity became a thing.  Though we do tend to use all the letters in a word.

Oh! and pudding is a specific dish -- not a synonym for dessert.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 24, 2018)

Nagol said:


> Pants are outer wear, cars don't have boots, and we gave up torches for flashlights when electricity became a thing.  Though we do tend to use all the letters in a word.
> 
> Oh! and pudding is a specific dish -- not a synonym for dessert.




My sympathies.


----------



## Richards (Oct 24, 2018)

I wasn't a fan of the TARDIS dropping a cookie/biscuit out of a slot for the Doctor.  While I'm sure the creators thought it would be a cute scene, it seemed to me more reminiscent of a scientist providing a food pellet to a guinea pig or lab rat who had just performed well in an experiment.  I prefer the TARDIS to think of the Doctor as "her thief" (as in the Matt Smith episode "The Doctor's Wife") rather than as some sort of pet.

Johnathan


----------



## Aeson (Oct 24, 2018)

I liked the episode. Didn't like the bad southern accents.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 24, 2018)

typical British smugness


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 24, 2018)

Richards said:


> I wasn't a fan of the TARDIS dropping a cookie/biscuit out of a slot for the Doctor.  While I'm sure the creators thought it would be a cute scene, it seemed to me more reminiscent of a scientist providing a food pellet to a guinea pig or lab rat who had just performed well in an experiment.  I prefer the TARDIS to think of the Doctor as "her thief" (as in the Matt Smith episode "The Doctor's Wife") rather than as some sort of pet.
> 
> Johnathan




I took it more as an endearment such as what an old couple might do. 
I know I will occasionally bring an unbidden cuppa tea and a biscuit to my significant other


----------



## Nagol (Oct 24, 2018)

Morrus said:


> My sympathies.





And you have mine.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 24, 2018)

Nagol said:


> And you have mine.




You can't just make my own joke back at me!


----------



## Nagol (Oct 24, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You can't just make my own joke back at me!




Who's joking? /jk


----------



## Eltab (Oct 24, 2018)

Hmm, since this thread has "just growed" (to several episodes), maybe the title could be edited?


----------



## Richards (Oct 24, 2018)

Yeah, good point.  I went back and changed "First Episode" to "First Season."

Johnathan


----------



## jonesy (Oct 25, 2018)

The last time that Doctor Who had ratings this good David Tennant was the star (which is super good since Tennant is the record holder).


----------



## Morrus (Oct 25, 2018)

jonesy said:


> The last time that Doctor Who had ratings this good David Tennant was the star (which is super good since Tennant is the record holder).




Depends how far back you go. Tom Baker had 14.5m with City of Death and 13.5m with Destiny of the Daleks.

The highest sine the 2005 revival is Voyage of the Damned, which, like you say, was a Tennant (Xmas) episode with 13.3m viewers. He had a few 10m+ eps.

This series is doing super well though! The Woman Who Fell To Earth had 10.9m, which is about twice what most of Capaldi's run did.

For "first episode" ratings (comparing like for like), Whittaker is in the lead with 10.9, followed by Ecclestone with 10.81, then Tom Baker with 10.8.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 26, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Depends how far back you go. Tom Baker had 14.5m with City of Death and 13.5m with Destiny of the Daleks.
> 
> The highest sine the 2005 revival is Voyage of the Damned, which, like you say, was a Tennant (Xmas) episode with 13.3m viewers. He had a few 10m+ eps.
> 
> ...




I am wondering - was Tom Baker already well-known before he became the Doctor? A(s a foreigner I really don't know much about UK actors in that time.) What about the others? I think Witthaker is actually the only one I knew before I watched them, because I saw the first season of Broadchurch. Does their popularity in any way influence those numbers?


----------



## Morrus (Oct 26, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am wondering - was Tom Baker already well-known before he became the Doctor? A(s a foreigner I really don't know much about UK actors in that time.




How old do you think I am.


----------



## carrot (Oct 26, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am wondering - was Tom Baker already well-known before he became the Doctor? A(s a foreigner I really don't know much about UK actors in that time.) What about the others? I think Witthaker is actually the only one I knew before I watched them, because I saw the first season of Broadchurch. Does their popularity in any way influence those numbers?




I don't believe Tom Baker was particularly famous before he took on the role as he'd mostly only had small roles. Most of the actors that came afterwards were pretty well known beforehand though. Matt Smith was probably the first "unknown". I suspect that there is a small popularity factor, but most of the numbers would be fans seeing if the new actor is any good.


----------



## Erekose (Oct 26, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am wondering - was Tom Baker already well-known before he became the Doctor? A(s a foreigner I really don't know much about UK actors in that time.) What about the others? I think Witthaker is actually the only one I knew before I watched them, because I saw the first season of Broadchurch. Does their popularity in any way influence those numbers?




Well as someone old enough to remember Jon Pertwee as the Doctor, and I've also read Tom Baker's autobiography, I can safely say he [Tom Baker] was unknown by the general public (and certainly by children) until he became the Doctor.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 26, 2018)

I guess Eccleston was the most well known, having been in a few films, but even he wasn't exactly super famous.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 26, 2018)

And for those of who not in the UK,  According to BBC America, 1.4 million people watched the season 11 premiere of Doctor Who live. Including those who watched it later that day, the episode garnered around 2.6 million viewers overall for BBC America.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 26, 2018)

trappedslider said:


> And for those of who not in the UK,  According to BBC America, 1.4 million people watched the season 11 premiere of Doctor Who live. Including those who watched it later that day, the episode garnered around 2.6 million viewers overall for BBC America.




Yeah it’s a lot less popular in the US. Not surprising I guess. 

10m viewers in the U.K. is one in 6 people. The equivalent pro rated for population would be 50m viewers in the US. So per head it’s 25 times less popular in the US.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 27, 2018)

Tom Bakers only other famous role was in Voyages of Sinbad which is what got him recommended for Dr Who. He was also in his 30s before he actually got into acting.

Personally I’d say Peter Davidson was probably the first well known actor to be cast as the Doctor having become known through his role as Tristan in All Creatures Great and Small.

Of course we also need a shout out to John Hurt who is likely the most famous actor to kinda-take the role


----------



## Aeson (Oct 28, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Yeah it’s a lot less popular in the US. Not surprising I guess.
> 
> 10m viewers in the U.K. is one in 6 people. The equivalent pro rated for population would be 50m viewers in the US. So per head it’s 25 times less popular in the US.



It's growing in popularity. My 14 year old nephew has recently discovered it. Like many teens he knows almost nothing of things older than himself. So he was surprised when I told him about the older episodes. 

Many here have a hard time relating to something not American. Canada gets a pass because they sound like us. My mom has difficulty hearing so accents are enough for her to turn away from Doctor Who and other British shows. Others can't get past the cheesy FX of the 80s.


----------



## Richards (Oct 28, 2018)

And still other Americans fell instantly in love with the show back in the 1970s (Pertwee era) when they first saw it, cheesy effects and all, and actually owe their marriages to _Doctor Who_.  I'm one of them.

Johnathan


----------



## Morrus (Oct 28, 2018)

Richards said:


> And still other Americans fell instantly in love with the show back in the 1970s (Pertwee era) when they first saw it, cheesy effects and all, and actually owe their marriages to _Doctor Who_.  I'm one of them.




That's awesome.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 28, 2018)

Haha, accents... At least its your mother tongue! English is only my second language, and I only started regularly watching TV shows (back than thanks to Torrent) in English when I was an adult. Doctor Who can be a real challenge, since most TV I watch is still American. But I am kinda getting the hang on it. Sometimes i give up and turn on subtitles, though. (But I think less often for British shows than for shows that use heavy US-specific accents, like on Preacher.)

As awesome as some of the "old" Doctors where, they do show their age in the way they tell stories. Some of their "seasons" have stories that today would be told in a single episode. It is fascinating how things changed. I wonder if storytelling has really improved, or if it's just that we all grew up so intimately familiar with modern TV and movie rules, standards and tropes that we just can be shown the same stories at a faster pace without losing any meaning. And if someone outside this "TV culture" would watch a modern movie or TV show, he'd be overwhelmed.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 28, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Haha, accents... At least its your mother tongue! English is only my second language, and I only started regularly watching TV shows (back than thanks to Torrent) in English when I was an adult. Doctor Who can be a real challenge, since most TV I watch is still American. But I am kinda getting the hang on it. Sometimes i give up and turn on subtitles, though. (But I think less often for British shows than for shows that use heavy US-specific accents, like on Preacher.)
> 
> As awesome as some of the "old" Doctors where, they do show their age in the way they tell stories. Some of their "seasons" have stories that today would be told in a single episode. It is fascinating how things changed. I wonder if storytelling has really improved, or if it's just that we all grew up so intimately familiar with modern TV and movie rules, standards and tropes that we just can be shown the same stories at a faster pace without losing any meaning. And if someone outside this "TV culture" would watch a modern movie or TV show, he'd be overwhelmed.




A lot of it is just what you’re used to. Somebody from the 70s watching a modern episode would find it fast-paced and frenetic to the point of incomprehension. While we find 70s stuff to be slow and plodding. 

You can get used to anything, and difference seems weird. That’s why just in our relatively homogenous western world, minor differences can seem utterly baffling and nonsensical.


----------



## Richards (Oct 29, 2018)

So, "Arachnids in the UK" - that was a good episode!  (Of course, I have a close relative who's an avowed arachnophobe who will probably never be able to watch it.)

Johnathan


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2018)

I quite enjoyed Arachnids, and found it creepy enough (as a Doctor Who episode should). But I am one of those almost arachnophobic types, so it keyed right into my pyche for free. I don't think I'll remember it in years to come, but it was a competent episode.


----------



## Nutation (Oct 29, 2018)

A rather clumsy caricature of current politics.

Not afraid of spiders, so the show was emotionally dull. Maybe the writer or director is? We didn't get the usual slow reveal that we usually get, delayed until one to three victims have met a sticky, screaming end. Puzzled by the Doctor's "solution", which was to herd them all into a box to die. Also, people were dangerously certain that they'd attracted every last crawling thing.

I did like the interplay among the companions and our view of their lives that set up a desire to return to the Tardis.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 29, 2018)

yeah the episode was a bit too preachy for my liking with its take on the evils of corporatism, industrial waste dumping, vivisection and American politics. I felt like I was watching something from the 90s (which may have been intentional) and the OTT of the ammoral American business tycoon was just cringey (He was worse than Henry van Statten the guy who owned the Internet and the Dalek who got emootions from Rose). In fact the whole episode seem to be channelling a lot of past series and the end scene when the Doctor gives the speech about them having to be really sure and she cant give any guarantees was so very very familiar.

The bits I did like were the Doctors developing personality (its got bits like Tenant, Smith, Davidson and Troughton) and I'm likeing the accents too. The animatronics of the spiders was also much better than past efforts from the Doctors creature labs and I did like the interactions between companions and Yaz' family, and also Grahams grief .

The mother spider suffocating under her own weight (despite still being able to cling to the ceiling) was just hokey and I have no idea of the logic of the Doctors plan of trapping the spiders in a small room until they starve to death? -um,  I'd think that shooting them was certainly more humane than the likelihood of them starting to cannibalise each other to survive. Not to mention - how do they stop other people going to the hotel and opening the safe room door?

Anyway it was an okay episode, nothing noteworthy, but a let down after last weeks glories


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2018)

I thought Bradley Walsh was great this week, especially the scenes of grief. He’s proving to be much better than I expected. I do wish he’d stop calling her “Doc”, through.

The spider CGI was OK, I guess.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 29, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> The mother spider suffocating under her own weight (despite still being able to cling to the ceiling) was just hokey




I was actually impressed that they decided to inject that bit of realism dealing with the Square-Cube Law and I chuckled at the Ryan making shadow puppets in the lab.

On a different note, I finally figured out where I knew Sheffield from..the BBC docudrama Threads...*wonders if any of you old folks saw it when it originally aired in the mid 80s*


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 29, 2018)

trappedslider said:


> I was actually impressed that they decided to inject that bit of realism dealing with the Square-Cube Law and I chuckled at the Ryan making shadow puppets in the lab.
> 
> On a different note, I finally figured out where I knew Sheffield from..the BBC docudrama Threads...*wonders if any of you old folks saw it when it originally aired in the mid 80s*




I vaguely remember "Threads." I want to say that I saw it on WNED (PBS), but can't remember any more than it was post apocalyptic. 

Sheffield is famous for its steel, especially with reference to knives and swords.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 29, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> I vaguely remember "Threads." I want to say that I saw it on WNED (PBS), but can't remember any more than it was post apocalyptic.




It was basically the U.K's version of The Day After.


----------



## jonesy (Oct 29, 2018)

I really wish that that hadn't been the title for the episode. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if I hadn't been waiting for the spiders to show up.

When they did show up they looked pretty good. The effects team gets a thumbs up from me.

"He's running for president."
"Ed Sheeran?"


I'm starting to get the feeling that we'll be seeing many of the characters/villains again later in this series. The way they've been dealing with them leaves things hanging in a way that looks very intentional.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2018)

jonesy said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling that we'll be seeing many of the characters/villains again later in this series. The way they've been dealing with them leaves things hanging in a way that looks very intentional.




Yep. Every one so far has run away or teleported or whatever (though the villain in Rosa didn't do so under his own steam).


----------



## billd91 (Oct 30, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> yeah the episode was a bit too preachy for my liking with its take on the evils of corporatism, industrial waste dumping, vivisection and American politics. I felt like I was watching something from the 90s (which may have been intentional) and the OTT of the ammoral American business tycoon was just cringey (He was worse than Henry van Statten the guy who owned the Internet and the Dalek who got emootions from Rose). In fact the whole episode seem to be channelling a lot of past series and the end scene when the Doctor gives the speech about them having to be really sure and she cant give any guarantees was so very very familiar.




Now, that's part of what I liked best about the episode - the villain wasn't some alien bent on enslaving (or eating) the human race. He was just an amoral ignoramus, a buffoon with no sense of responsibility, and too much power in the form of his wealth. That made it particularly topical - I just hope it ages well.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 30, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Now, that's part of what I liked best about the episode - the villain wasn't some alien bent on enslaving (or eating) the human race. He was just an amoral ignoramus, a buffoon with no sense of responsibility, and too much power in the form of his wealth. That made it particularly topical - I just hope it ages well.




On the other hand, it’s weird for a Who episode not to feature an alien at all.


----------



## Eltab (Oct 30, 2018)

Morrus said:


> How old do you think I am.




You've regenerated at least once so it's hard to tell just by looking.


----------



## Eltab (Oct 30, 2018)

I sat in for _Spiders_ myself.  (My wife thought she might bolt part way through; a spider the size of your thumbnail is big enough for her.)
We then realized it is the weekend before Halloween.

How many tropes were they planning to pile in one place to create the giant spider? - toxic waste, biology lab, landfill, natural seepage, a coal mine.  In the _Godzilla_/NYC movie they just used the handwave "radiation did it" and that was adequate for the purpose at hand.  Somebody on the Who cast must have binge-watched _Captain Planet_.

The villain seemed to be a nod to Bond Villains in general, and the TV network owner trying to start WW3 between China and Britain in particular.  But only a nod behind the cardboard cutout of 'jerk CEO'.
P.S. He has no idea why Trump won - which is part of his character - but watching him fall flat in the primaries would be entertaining.  Future episode?

We thought there was a segment missing between shooting the Mother Spider and the Conclusion.  OK, you've contained the brood (ALL of them? Are you SURE?) in a box with some air.  What happens when the boom box's batteries run out?  They eat each other until the one XL survivor also suffocates?  And why are you certain that Jerk CEO won't go in there later to try some stunt that accidentally lets them out again?


----------



## Jester David (Oct 30, 2018)

I liked the episode. Much like how the Rosa Parks episode felt like a 1st Doctor throwback where the challenge was surviving the past, this felt very much like a 70s Pertwee episode. It was almost a homage to _The Green Death_.


----------



## Aeson (Oct 30, 2018)

At the rate she's going The Doctor will be on the next regeneration before she sorts herself out.


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 30, 2018)

Eltab said:


> We thought there was a segment missing between shooting the Mother Spider and the Conclusion.  OK, you've contained the brood (ALL of them? Are you SURE?) in a box with some air.  What happens when the boom box's batteries run out?  They eat each other until the one XL survivor also suffocates?  And why are you certain that Jerk CEO won't go in there later to try some stunt that accidentally lets them out again?




I was actually thinking about the episode last night and the thought occured to me that they didnt actually kill the Spider they left in the neigbours Apartment. I don't think Yaz's parents are going to be happy when the Landlord goes in next door and lets out another hungry giant spider to terrorise Shefeild


----------



## jonesy (Oct 31, 2018)

[video=youtube;ur898NZWZ4w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur898NZWZ4w[/video]


----------



## Eltab (Oct 31, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> I was actually thinking about the episode last night and the thought occured to me that they didnt actually kill the Spider they left in the neigbours Apartment. I don't think Yaz's parents are going to be happy when the Landlord goes in next door and lets out another hungry giant spider to terrorise Shefeild




Setting the boom box loud enough to draw _that_ spider too would have woken up the neighbors and somebody would have called the police about Noise Ordinance.  
So much for "let's take care of this quietly, OK?"


----------



## MarkB (Oct 31, 2018)

Eltab said:


> We thought there was a segment missing between shooting the Mother Spider and the Conclusion.  OK, you've contained the brood (ALL of them? Are you SURE?) in a box with some air.  What happens when the boom box's batteries run out?  They eat each other until the one XL survivor also suffocates?  And why are you certain that Jerk CEO won't go in there later to try some stunt that accidentally lets them out again?




The lady from the spider lab said that they deserved to be killed humanely - and she knew about the one in the flat. It wouldn't have hurt to see her organising that, but it also isn't much of a leap to assume she took care of it.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 31, 2018)

MarkB said:


> The lady from the spider lab said that they deserved to be killed humanely - and she knew about the one in the flat. It wouldn't have hurt to see her organising that, but it also isn't much of a leap to assume she took care of it.




It's also not a stretch to assume that specific spider, which got into that apartment somehow, might also have gotten out and been part of the spiderpocalypse.


----------



## MNblockhead (Nov 1, 2018)

_Spiders_ was my least favorite episode, and a real fall from the prior episode, mainly because of the ham-fisted cartoon villain. I hope he is not a recurring character, or if he is, make him more 3-dimensional.  But there were some real gems in this otherwise blah episode.

1st - the grieving scenes - Bradley Walsh delivered a moving performance and made for the deepest and best portrayed motive for a character wanting to go off with the doctor in the history of the show (at least that I can think of off the top of my head). 

2nd - the scene where the giant mother spider was dying because it grew too large and it being shot. Up until the villain started speaking. Such good writing so startlingly quickly ruined by poor writing. 

As much as I like the doctor and mostly like the companions ( like Graham and Yasmin, but Ryan isn't working for me), I'm still on the fence about this season.


----------



## Nutation (Nov 1, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> _Spiders_ was my least favorite episode, and a real fall from the prior episode, mainly because of the ham-fisted cartoon villain. I hope he is not a recurring character, or if he is, make him more 3-dimensional.




I doubt we'll see him again. I think the hotel owner who wants to be the American president was an unflattering caricature of the current American president who is a hotel owner.



MNblockhead said:


> 1st - the grieving scenes - Bradley Walsh delivered a moving performance and made for the deepest and best portrayed motive for a character wanting to go off with the doctor in the history of the show (at least that I can think of off the top of my head).




Nyssa, perhaps? The Master had stolen her father's body. But, it was a great performance. Too often, the companions leave with the Doctor just because it's a lark.


----------



## Eltab (Nov 1, 2018)

Despite my rather negative tone above, I should say that overall I enjoyed _Spiders_.  Include the missing segment and get some plot holes filled / loose ends tied up, there is a 90-minute Halloween Special that can be re-run in future.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 1, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> 2nd - the scene where the giant mother spider was dying because it grew too large and it being shot. Up until the villain started speaking. Such good writing so startlingly quickly ruined by poor writing.




True, but I feel like the Doctor's "no guns" policy was played up in this episode to the point of being just a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah, the hotel guy's actions were clearly not motivated by mercy, but when the poor creature is dying a slow and painful death from suffocation, a bullet to the brain seems a lot more merciful than the Doctor's apparent intention of standing there sympathising with it while it slowly expired.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 1, 2018)

MNblockhead said:


> 2nd - the scene where the giant mother spider was dying because it grew too large and it being shot. Up until the villain started speaking. Such good writing so startlingly quickly ruined by poor writing.
> .




See, suspension of disbeleif failed for me on that small artifice, because you can't have a giant spider happily clinging to a roof in one scene and then suffocating from its weight in the next - if square-cube law and the spiders weight is an issue, then make sure that gravity applies to spiders on the ceiling too!! 
Indeed when they dropped that tidbit in after they had already proclaimed the 'strand of spider silk the thickness of a pencil can hold down a plane" meme, my inner nerd groaned at the rush of middle school trivia parading as creative writing


----------



## Aeson (Nov 1, 2018)

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/doctor-who-production-designer-new-tardis-dispenses-cookies

In case someone wanted to know why.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 1, 2018)

Aeson said:


> https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/doctor-who-production-designer-new-tardis-dispenses-cookies
> 
> In case someone wanted to know why.




Man, I love custard creams! Totally the best biscuit. (No custard involved).


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 5, 2018)

Could a Pting eat a Dalek?


----------



## jonesy (Nov 5, 2018)

That almost seemed like an old school style episode. Refreshing that I could not tell where the plot was heading.

Couldn't help but notice that there was a picture of a Weeping Angel on the computer, as well as The Silence. Pretty advanced tech to be able to display both without problems occurring.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 5, 2018)

I wasn’t a fan of this episode. The monster reminded me of the Slitheen, and the self destruct unit you can just pick up and chuck out the window seemed rather pointless. It was basically ... serviceable filler, I guess.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 5, 2018)

jonesy said:


> That almost seemed like an old school style episode. Refreshing that I could not tell where the plot was heading.
> 
> Couldn't help but notice that there was a picture of a Weeping Angel on the computer, as well as The Silence. Pretty advanced tech to be able to display both without problems occurring.




No problems..for now.......


----------



## Aeson (Nov 5, 2018)

Clearly, that creature is bigger on the inside.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2018)

I guess it's true, Doctors really are the worst patients.


----------



## Richards (Nov 6, 2018)

Wow, that episode...stunk.  Easily the worst of the season thus far.  When the "monster of the week" makes you immediately think of Nibbler from _Futurama_, you might have problems.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi9nfz4wb7eAhXE3YMKHWyuDsMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deviantart.com%2Fdomejohnny%2Fart%2FNibbler-Futurama-670694479&psig=AOvVaw2ejz0H1wNZJ3TOVIuqes7X&ust=1541550547418527

And the problems don't stop there.  What kind of alien race has females only give birth to females and males only give birth to males, without having a non-surgical way to get the male babies out?  And now that the male alien had his male baby, just how's he planning on feeding it?  What kind of medical ship only has two doctors on board and no other staff?  Do the two doctors ever get to sleep?  And if the ship is powered by antimatter and controlled from a home base, why does it need a (removable) self-destruct mechanism?  Couldn't the home base simply turn off the containment of the antimatter?  (That would be the end result of a self-destruct mechanism going off anyway, so why bother with the explosive device in the first place?)  And we're left hanging at the end as far as the TARDIS is concerned: it's four days' travel away at the end of the episode - are we going to have to watch the Doctor and TARDIS crew go back to get it next episode, or will it just be hand-waved away?

Chris Chibnell wrote this nonsensical excuse for an episode.  If this is the kind of work we can expect from him, let's hope he farmed the job out to those with a little more talent for the rest of the season.

Johnathan


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 6, 2018)

Omg is this Doctor Who or some silly kid show with cutsie scrap eating aliens?

 Come on Chibnall we want serious grown up stories about a time travelling alien from Sheffield!!!


----------



## MarkB (Nov 6, 2018)

I actually enjoyed the episode a lot. Nothing fancy, but just a regular perilous situation, some nice guest characters, a monster with misunderstood motivation, and some teamwork and sacrifice required to reach a happy conclusion. Standard Doctor Who fare, delivered reasonably well.



Richards said:


> What kind of medical ship only has two doctors on board and no other staff?




An ambulance.


----------



## jonesy (Nov 6, 2018)

Richards said:


> What kind of medical ship only has two doctors on board and no other staff?



It's just an ambulance.  



> And if the ship is powered by antimatter and controlled from a home base, why does it need a (removable) self-destruct mechanism?



Double fail-safe? I don't understand why that is a problem?



> And we're left hanging at the end as far as the TARDIS is concerned: it's four days' travel away at the end of the episode - are we going to have to watch the Doctor and TARDIS crew go back to get it next episode, or will it just be hand-waved away?



Since when is travel time being put off-screen called a hand-wave? Don't watch Game of Thrones if you hate that. 

And they did say they could teleport them there.


----------



## Aeson (Nov 6, 2018)

I think they miss the mark on the teleport.  It appears, based on the preview for next week they end up in 1957 Pakistan. Literally appears as if teleported. Still no TARDIS?


----------



## MarkB (Nov 6, 2018)

Aeson said:


> I think they miss the mark on the teleport.  It appears, based on the preview for next week they end up in 1957 Pakistan. Literally appears as if teleported. Still no TARDIS?



The dialogue in the preview indicates that it's a deliberate journey, visiting Yasmin's grandmother.


----------



## Nutation (Nov 6, 2018)

Richards said:


> Wow, that episode...stunk.  Easily the worst of the season thus far.  When the "monster of the week" makes you immediately think of Nibbler from _Futurama_, you might have problems.
> 
> Johnathan




I definitely liked it better than that, but the plot holes were many. Gripes first:

Pregnant bloke is an annoying progressive trope such as the BBC loves. As you say, it doesn't survive inspection.
Two idiotball maneuvers to set up the situation, one by the doctor and the other by The Doctor. Both should know better, and Astos even lampshaded his "rookie mistake".
The android has to shut down because Cicero is dead? It would be more typical and upbeat of this show for her brother to assume ownership.
Characters were a mix of interesting and uninteresting. I suppose that's par.
Decent puzzle alien coupled with solving its problem and the bomb simultaneously. Of course, I would have just put the Pting in a wooden box.
The description of the antimatter engine was surprisingly accurate and articulate. Usually, Dr. Who just throws around big words that sound impressive.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 6, 2018)

Nutation said:


> I definitely liked it better than that, but the plot holes were many. Gripes first:
> 
> Pregnant bloke is an annoying progressive trope such as the BBC loves. As you say, it doesn't survive inspection.
> 
> The description of the antimatter engine was surprisingly accurate and articulate. Usually, Dr. Who just throws around big words that sound impressive.




I really like the antimatter engine description as it cemented this Doctors "engineer" credentials, which is a great development for the character away from the past gobblydygook to something grounded in technical know-how.

Pregnant man was trite but not offensive, he was afterall an Alien and I assume his species is essentially Hermaphrodite to some degree, thus allowing him to have a functioning uterus - exactly how the fertilised ovum gets there boggles the mind however.


----------



## billd91 (Nov 6, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> I really like the antimatter engine description as it cemented this Doctors "engineer" credentials, which is a great development for the character away from the past gobblydygook to something grounded in technical know-how.
> 
> Pregnant man was trite but not offensive, he was afterall an Alien and I assume his species is essentially Hermaphrodite to some degree, thus allowing him to have a functioning uterus - exactly how the fertilised ovum gets there boggles the mind however.




It doesn't seem that mind boggling. If you can imagine a male having a functioning uterus, it's not that hard to imagine that the alien species must have some kind of genitalia that detects the sex of a fertilized egg and deposits it accordingly.


----------



## Richards (Nov 7, 2018)

Sorry, guys, I'm not buying your "ambulance" explanation.  An ambulance picks up a patient and goes directly to the hospital in a trip of a pretty short duration - certainly not one requiring sleep shifts on the parts of the EMTs.  The "ambulance" space ship had only two doctors on board, yet the TARDIS was four days behind them.  So in those four days, were the two doctors each performing rotating 12-hour shifts?  If so, why were they both awake and "on shift" at the beginning of the episode?  If not, how many hours of the day do the poor patients on board have to go without medical supervision while the two doctors are sleeping?

The concept was poorly thought out - as indeed was most of the episode.

Johnathan


----------



## Aeson (Nov 7, 2018)

No one sleeps unless it's part of the story. Have you not noticed this? In a highly advanced society like this one a space ambulance can be managed by less crew. Early on they may have had dozens or hundreds of crew. Maybe they're like US doctors in modern hospitals working insane multiday shifts.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 7, 2018)

Nutation said:


> The description of the antimatter engine was surprisingly accurate and articulate. Usually, Dr. Who just throws around big words that sound impressive.



It was neat. It just had one problem - it doesn't really make sense to produce the antimatter aboard to use it later as energy source - producing antimatter costs more energy than you would get out of it, so if you produce antimatter to immediately consume it again, just use your energy source for the antimatter production.

It makes sense to have antimatter production facilities that use solar light or other energy forms to produce antimatter, because the energy density is pretty fantastic. So your ship can hold a lot of fuel that it alone could never produce over its service.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 7, 2018)

Richards said:


> Sorry, guys, I'm not buying your "ambulance" explanation.




It's not my explanation, it's right there in the episode. They say that their only duties are to keep patients alive and stable until they reach proper medical facilities, not to fully treat them. They're not doctors, they're paramedics with access to highly advanced mostly-automated medical systems.


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 7, 2018)

MarkB said:


> It's not my explanation, it's right there in the episode. They say that their only duties are to keep patients alive and stable until they reach proper medical facilities, not to fully treat them. They're not doctors, they're paramedics with access to highly advanced mostly-automated medical systems.




Except that they were explicitly referred to as doctors. The situation was similar to a forward operations military medical unit, as depicted in the movie/TV show M.A.S.H., except that their base was mobile. Or like a hospital ship as HMY Britannia was designed to operate as, in time of war. Stitch people back together well enough that they don't die, so that they can live long enough to receive more advanced care.


----------



## MNblockhead (Nov 10, 2018)

MarkB said:


> True, but I feel like the Doctor's "no guns" policy was played up in this episode to the point of being just a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah, the hotel guy's actions were clearly not motivated by mercy, but when the poor creature is dying a slow and painful death from suffocation, a bullet to the brain seems a lot more merciful than the Doctor's apparent intention of standing there sympathising with it while it slowly expired.




Good point. But it isn't like the Doctor had much time to do anything. Perhaps she would have come up with a kinder way of alleviating its pain.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 11, 2018)

billd91 said:


> It doesn't seem that mind boggling. If you can imagine a male having a functioning uterus, it's not that hard to imagine that the alien species must have some kind of genitalia that detects the sex of a fertilized egg and deposits it accordingly.




Folks need to read up on biology a bit before going into such things.  You folks are making this way too complicated, and you are trying too hard to bind an alien species that only superficially looks human to human mechanisms and structures.  I mean, think for a second, if a male can bring a baby to term, it quite obviously doesn't mean the same thing as "male" does in humans.

Even on Earth, not all species determine sex of a child based only on the chromosomes of the fertilized egg.  For some, for example, *temperature* during incubation of an egg is the determining factor.  Heck, some species on Earth can change sex after they are born!  So, stop thinking in terms of sex determination by the fertilized egg itself!

So, the number of possible mechanisms are large.  How about simply - the male and female each have different levels of some hormone (or equivalent) that determines the sex of the child.  Done.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 11, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> See, suspension of disbeleif failed for me on that small artifice, because you can't have a giant spider happily clinging to a roof in one scene and then suffocating from its weight in the next - if square-cube law and the spiders weight is an issue, then make sure that gravity applies to spiders on the ceiling too!! [




Science interjection - you've got it a little messed up.

Arthropoods have two separate issues as they get large.

One is weight - the materials used in exoskeletons are not particularly strong.  It cannot carry the same weight that bone can - so, if they get too big, arthropod exoskeletons will break legs, and the like.  This can be gotten around by fundamentally changing the materials used in the skeleton, but then you're no longer really an arthropod.  You're something else.  But regardless, you can't just make a garden spider grow the size of a horse or larger and expect it to bear up its own weight.  It will crush itself.

The other is oxygen - their oxygen problem is related to size, but *NOT* to weight.  Arthropods do not have lungs and a closed circulatory system to move oxygen through the body.  They have an open circulatory system, in which oxygen isn't so much pumped through the body, as it more diffuses through, with only a little mechanical help as the animal's muscles move.  If the body is too large, you can't diffuse sufficient oxygen into the interior tissues from the surface of the body in this manner, and tissue deep in the body would die.  This is what seems to have been happening to the ballroom spider.

Interesting point - this mechanism is in part dependent on the percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere (actually the partial pressure of oxygen, but close enough for this discussion).  So, raise the percentage of O2, and the bugs can be bigger.  Back tens of millions of years ago, the percentage of 02 in the atmosphere was higher than it is now.  And bugs got bigger.  MUCH bigger.  Still within the limits of the exoskeletal materials, still way bigger than the centipedes you see around today.  Bigger than coconut crabs, which are the largest land arthropods these days, who can weigh as much as a house cat and whose legs can span three feet.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 12, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> Except that they were explicitly referred to as doctors. The situation was similar to a forward operations military medical unit, as depicted in the movie/TV show M.A.S.H., except that their base was mobile. Or like a hospital ship as HMY Britannia was designed to operate as, in time of war. Stitch people back together well enough that they don't die, so that they can live long enough to receive more advanced care.




Rewatched last night and the vessel is explicitly referred to as a Rescue Ship designed to keep patients alive while they are transported. It’s the ships systems that do the emergency healing/resuscitations with the doctors just there to monitor the patients ‘pods’


----------



## Richards (Nov 12, 2018)

Tonight's episode was rather inconsequential.  If the Doctor and company hadn't gone back in time when they did...it looks like pretty much nothing would have changed.  The Doctor was basically just a sightseer for this one - there was no alien menace to fight (they were good guys) and they even had to let the newlywed husband get killed so they didn't screw up history.  At least in the Rosa Parks episode, they were actively undoing the efforts of somebody else trying to mess with time - it this episode, not so much.

Johnathan


----------



## delericho (Nov 12, 2018)

Yeah. It kinda felt like there's a big piece missing - the bit where Yaz really wants to intervene but it reminded that she can't.

If we hadn't had "Rosa" earlier in the series, I suspect I would have enjoyed this one more. As it is, that's three pretty weak episodes in a row.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Nov 12, 2018)

Really, really different episode although I thought it was fantastic. It’s great to see them taking risks and trying different things.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 12, 2018)

They're definitely doing the "teaching history" part of Doctor Who, aren't they? 

I agree that the Doctor was just a bystander in this episode. All they did is witness events.


----------



## jonesy (Nov 12, 2018)

I liked the episode.

Did you notice that the ending music was the Doctor Who theme? Wish this was longer:

[video=youtube;4MVU3yTzCDc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MVU3yTzCDc[/video]


----------



## MarkB (Nov 13, 2018)

I have to agree that, while it was an enjoyable episode, I'm not keen on the whole "witness of history" theme.

It also serves to highlight the often-handwaved question of when is it alright for the Doctor to intervene in events, past or future, on Earth or elsewhere? From the Doctor's viewpoint, isn't it all part of established history?


----------



## Jester David (Nov 13, 2018)

Richards said:


> Tonight's episode was rather inconsequential.  If the Doctor and company hadn't gone back in time when they did...it looks like pretty much nothing would have changed.  The Doctor was basically just a sightseer for this one - there was no alien menace to fight (they were good guys) and they even had to let the newlywed husband get killed so they didn't screw up history.  At least in the Rosa Parks episode, they were actively undoing the efforts of somebody else trying to mess with time - it this episode, not so much.
> 
> Johnathan



Witnessing history. Kinda like every other story from the first Doctor, really...
Or, the episode where Rose has to watch he father die. Only without her being stupid and trying to break time.

Really, there’s no shortage of episodes where the Doctor has to “fix” time from previously unknown alien intervention. Like _Fires or Pompei_. The difference here is the “twist” that there isn’t an evil plan, and they just get to watch history happen.

This story was really a mystery. What happened. And why. We knew from the start things were fate to unfold like they did. The first husband had to die. Having it beep a historical death isn’t all that different from having him heroically sacrifice himself to stop an alien invasion.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 13, 2018)

I liked the episode it was a nice personal insight to a relatively unexplored bit of history, that got to play with nostalgia and give Yaz a bit of character time too.past incarnations.

The Vajarians looked cool although having the twist of the Doctor beleiving them to be legendary assasins when in fact they're not was a bit naff - this Doctor seems to be wrong about things a bit more often than past incarnations - I'd have preferred more camera time be given to exploring Manish's motivations too.

Also I kept thinking "I wish the writers had decided to take Prem or even Omreen on as one of the new companions rather than Yaz", that way we could have got both an 'out of time' and 'ethnic' character rolled into one.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 13, 2018)

MarkB said:


> I have to agree that, while it was an enjoyable episode, I'm not keen on the whole "witness of history" theme.
> 
> It also serves to highlight the often-handwaved question of when is it alright for the Doctor to intervene in events, past or future, on Earth or elsewhere? From the Doctor's viewpoint, isn't it all part of established history?




Yeah. They used to get around that with the "fixed point in time" technobabble but they don't do that any more. But all of it's the past for the Doctor, so every alien stopped is altering history.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 13, 2018)

MarkB said:


> I have to agree that, while it was an enjoyable episode, I'm not keen on the whole "witness of history" theme.
> 
> It also serves to highlight the often-handwaved question of when is it alright for the Doctor to intervene in events, past or future, on Earth or elsewhere? From the Doctor's viewpoint, isn't it all part of established history?




no a common premise on the show is that time isnt linear and doesnt solidify until it is experienced - the Doctor can't change his/her own timeline but the entire rationale of the show is that the Doctor is a rebel who can't help but interfere even when she shouldnt


----------



## Morrus (Nov 13, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> no a common premise on the show is that time isnt linear and doesnt solidify until it is experienced




Doesn't solidify until experienced? I've not heard that one.


----------



## delericho (Nov 13, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Yeah. They used to get around that with the "fixed point in time" technobabble but they don't do that any more.




It would have been interesting in this episode if the Doctor had noted that she _could_ have interfered here - except that doing so would delete Yaz.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 13, 2018)

delericho said:


> It would have been interesting in this episode if the Doctor had noted that she _could_ have interfered here - except that doing so would delete Yaz.




Presumable every action she takes deletes somebody from the perspective of a time traveller.


----------



## delericho (Nov 13, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Presumable every action she takes deletes somebody from the perspective of a time traveller.




Sure. But that person is seldom standing right there.


----------



## billd91 (Nov 13, 2018)

MarkB said:


> I have to agree that, while it was an enjoyable episode, I'm not keen on the whole "witness of history" theme.
> 
> It also serves to highlight the often-handwaved question of when is it alright for the Doctor to intervene in events, past or future, on Earth or elsewhere? From the Doctor's viewpoint, isn't it all part of established history?




It's kind of the paradox with all time travel stories, isn't it? Are the events the way they are from the time traveler's perspective because they *lacked* their intervention or *because of* their intervention? If the intervention was suitably subtle to the known historical record, the time traveler wouldn't know until they went back and intervened.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 18, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Yeah. They used to get around that with the "fixed point in time" technobabble but they don't do that any more.




I thought they just made a reference to that in the episode, but I don't recall the precise dialog.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 18, 2018)

Quite enjoyed today’s episode. Felt a lot more old school. Workers disappearing, a little less sombre than some episodes have been this year. Nothing new, just a traditional Who episode — we’ve seen cheery polite killer robots like those dozens of times before, but that’s OK.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 19, 2018)

nice episode and I did like the twist of the System being the 'good guy', Nice couple of easter egg references too (Fez, Agatha Christie)

I also note that next week is another Historic Episode, so I wonder if they are going back to that as a fundamental pattern for the show


----------



## delericho (Nov 19, 2018)

Yep, this was a better episode.

Though I'm curious: how did they cut the bubble wrap to pack the items without popping any of the bubbles and thus setting off the bombs?


----------



## MarkB (Nov 19, 2018)

delericho said:


> Yep, this was a better episode.
> 
> Though I'm curious: how did they cut the bubble wrap to pack the items without popping any of the bubbles and thus setting off the bombs?




They said it was weaponised down in Dispatch, after the packing stage.


----------



## delericho (Nov 19, 2018)

MarkB said:


> They said it was weaponised down in Dispatch, after the packing stage.




Did they? Oh well, fair enough.


----------



## jonesy (Nov 20, 2018)

That episode had very classical feel to it.

Why do I keep thinking of HHGttG when I watch this season? The fez delivery bot, how much time would it have taken it to deliver said fez? Its name wouldn't have been Marvin, would it?


----------



## Morrus (Nov 20, 2018)

I often think it's too easy to get into the TARDIS. A TARDIS is supposed to be the most advanced type of ship in the universe, so teleporting onto it shouldn't be easy. I wonder if she gave Kerblam! permissions or something?


----------



## MNblockhead (Nov 20, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I often think it's too easy to get into the TARDIS. A TARDIS is supposed to be the most advanced type of ship in the universe, so teleporting onto it shouldn't be easy. I wonder if she gave Kerblam! permissions or something?




I assume that if she made that order, then some level or permissions were granted. I mean if I can give Amazon access to my door, I expect the far-future tech can do something similar.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Nov 20, 2018)

Kerblam! That was just weird, and feels like story wasn't finished yet.

Is it just me, or did the robots have the same voice as The Host from Voyage of the Damned?

(scroll down slightly for real Amazon Robots!)

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611295/humans-are-still-crucial-to-amazons-fulfillment-process/


----------



## Richards (Nov 21, 2018)

I wasn't expecting much from this episode when I found out it was called "Kerblam!"  I was pleasantly surprised.

Johnathan


----------



## Aeson (Nov 21, 2018)

Only three episodes left. It seems so quick. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next series. The Doctor has found herself. This was a fun episode. I liked Kira and felt bad for her.


----------



## delericho (Nov 21, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Only three episodes left. It seems so quick. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next series. The Doctor has found herself. This was a fun episode. I liked Kira and felt bad for her.




Rumour has it that the New Year's Day episode may be the only new Who in 2019.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 21, 2018)

delericho said:


> Rumour has it that the New Year's Day episode may be the only new Who in 2019.




Lots of weird rumours circling around right now, but there always are. I don't believe any of it.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-rumored-leave-doctor-2019/


----------



## delericho (Nov 21, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Lots of weird rumours circling around right now, but there always are. I don't believe any of it.




IMO, the rumour mill's been doing quite well recently - predicted the move to Sundays, the drop to 10 episodes, and the move of the Christmas episode. But I guess we'll see.



> https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-rumored-leave-doctor-2019/




I would be sorry to see Whittaker go. Chibnall not so much.

That said, I'm increasingly convinced Douglas Adams had it right all those years ago - go for one really good series, and then out. Both RTD and SM seemed to be increasingly running on empty near the end of their tenures as show-runner.


----------



## jonesy (Nov 21, 2018)

I never ever thought I'd be posting something like this, but...

There's an official Doctor Who Barbie doll:
https://barbie.mattel.com/shop/en-us/ba/pop-culture-movies/doctor-who-barbie-doll-fxc83


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 21, 2018)

jonesy said:


> I never ever thought I'd be posting something like this, but...
> 
> There's an official Doctor Who Barbie doll:
> https://barbie.mattel.com/shop/en-us/ba/pop-culture-movies/doctor-who-barbie-doll-fxc83




well now we know what BBCs real motivation for a gender swap was - more Merchandising!!!


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 22, 2018)

This far in how do you feel regarding the question: Can you see any of the companions hitting a Dalek with a bat?


----------



## Aeson (Nov 22, 2018)

I think they are becoming more brave. Yaz may be leading the way so I say she would be the first one.


----------



## Tonguez (Nov 22, 2018)

trappedslider said:


> This far in how do you feel regarding the question: Can you see any of the companions hitting a Dalek with a bat?




My moneys on Graham, he may have calmed down in his retirement but he’s from the right era to be up for a bit of biffo. 
Yaz might be capable but she seems a bit more sensible, so I don’t think she’d pull that Ace out of her pocket
Ryan will be too busy being angsty about his coordination issues


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 23, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> Yaz might be capable but she seems a bit more sensible, so I don’t think she’d pull that Ace out of her pocket




I see what you did there....


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2018)

Alan Cumming totally chewing up the scenery as King James.

Fairly standard Who episode -- the evil witch hunter turns out to be the witch, which is aliens. I would have thought the Doctor would get accused earlier... she's basically a wizard, after all.

Does the TARDIS have some kind of perception filter regarding their clothes? Nobody really noticed how they were dressed (I think King James made one comment). I know the TARDIS handles language for them.


----------



## Aeson (Nov 26, 2018)

Would it have been common for a man from Africa or woman from Pakistan to be roaming the countryside in the 17th century? That wasn't questioned either.


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## Hussar (Nov 26, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Would it have been common for a man from Africa or woman from Pakistan to be roaming the countryside in the 17th century? That wasn't questioned either.




Doctor Who has trod that ground more than a few times.  Scenes from different parts of history that are pretty ... colorful?  I guess that's a word.  

17th century?  Not terribly unheard of.  Europeans had been in North America by a century by then.  Trade with India and China had been pretty well established.  It wouldn't exactly be something you'd see every day, but, not unheard of either.    I mean, heck, the slave trade had been going for about a century by this point.  

The problem is, our history books tend to really gloss over things quite a bit when it comes to demographics.


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## Tonguez (Nov 26, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Would it have been common for a man from Africa or woman from Pakistan to be roaming the countryside in the 17th century? That wasn't questioned either.




Black Moors (aka Blackamoors) were common in continental Europe (remember Moorish Spain) and many came to Medieval England via France as Court Musicians as well as Servants. Apparently there were hundreds of Africans in Tudor England working as Merchants and even a sailor who travelled with Sir Francis Drake. Asians became more prominent after the 1600s and the rise of the East India Company who often brough Indian Servants back to England with them. 

Its also during this later era that discrimination against Africans and Asians became more prominent motivated by the superiority complex of the East India Company and the 'new' Slave Trade


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## MarkB (Nov 26, 2018)

A very mediocre alien-of-the-week in this episode, generic Doctor Who fare that seemed to be there purely as a plot device to excuse the Doctor for interfering in history rather than standing back and observing terrible events play out.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Nov 27, 2018)

Ugh , average at best. I had high hopes for this season as Broadchurch was fantastic, and I think JW is a great Doctor. They stories are simply hit and miss.
I regularly rewatch / listen to old favourites going back to Eccelston, Tennant, and Smith episodes. That really tapered off with Capaldi’s seasons, and there have only been 1-2 this year I would revisit


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## Ryujin (Nov 27, 2018)

I'm willing to give them the series to sort themselves out. There have been big changes in personnel and tone, so it'll take a bit for them to find their feet.


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## Morrus (Nov 27, 2018)

I’m liking it more than Capaldi’s first series (which was the weakest since 2005) but found Capaldi ended up being my favourite Doctor, with much stronger 2nd and 3rd series.


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## carrot (Nov 27, 2018)

It's finally got to the point where I've given up on this incarnation and removed it from series link. I didn't even get halfway through the last episode.

It is hugely disappointing - I've been watching since the Tom Baker days, and haven't missed a single episode since Peter Davison took over, but I really have not enjoyed very much about this series. I found myself watching some of the Matt Smith episodes yesterday and those were still really enjoyable but I couldn't tell you what made the difference.

Maybe (if the rumours are true) when Chris Chibnal leaves, I'll start watching again.


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## Erekose (Nov 27, 2018)

So far I think JW is completely fine as the doctor (neither the best nor the worst) but as the stories she's been given so far are also "fine" perhaps she'll only get the opportunity to shine when the stories become stronger . . .


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## MNblockhead (Nov 28, 2018)

I rarely go back and re-watch Doctor Who episodes outside of Baker and Tenant, but I did quite like "Demons of the Punjab" and am sure I'll watch it again. But most episodes have been disappointing, which is almost entirely due to the writing. Jodie Whittaker is doing a fine job as the doctor. I like her portrayal very much. I also really like Graham and Yasmin.  Ryan seems like a 3rd wheel, I'm hoping he just needs to grow into the role. But he's not to blame. The stories themselves are just not particularly compelling.


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## Aeson (Dec 3, 2018)

The Doctor made a new friend. 

I enjoyed this episode. It'll make me think twice about wool clothes and lamb chops. How Graham reacted to seeing Grace is how I would have reacted. That is sentence passes my lips daily.


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## Tonguez (Dec 3, 2018)

OMG a real blind actress!!!

Ryan was a bit of dick regarding Hannes dad, though I suppose he does have his own daddy issues and he was vindicated after the monster reveal is made showing that Hannes dad really was a dick about keeping his daughter barricaded in the house. 

I did like that they referenced Yaz's police training to deal with kids, it makes her backstory relevant. Also nice to bring up Grahams sandwich and the easteregg of the Doctor tasting the dirt to work out where they were..

What was the point of Ribbons? just a random portal guardian in a tunnel?  The ending was cute with its badly animated Frog and "Friendship is Magic" resolve

Anyway is was okay as an episode, but rather unforgettable and I dunno if Whittaker has yet captured the 'power' of the Doctor. She has the zaniness down, but the Doctor is also an Authority, credible threat that invokes respect - even Matt Smith was able to do the serious tone and menance when he needed to, thats not come through with Whittaker.


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## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> Anyway is was okay as an episode, but rather unforgettable and I dunno if Whittaker has yet captured the 'power' of the Doctor. She has the zaniness down, but the Doctor is also an Authority, credible threat that invokes respect - even Matt Smith was able to do the serious tone and menance when he needed to, thats not come through with Whittaker.




She’s more old school. The bombastic superhero Doctor of authority is a more recent creation.


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## Nagol (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> She’s more old school. The bombastic superhero Doctor of authority is a more recent creation.




Pertwee channeled bombast quite well.


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## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

Nagol said:


> Pertwee channeled bombast quite well.




I don't think so. Not in the way that Tennant and Smith did.


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## jonesy (Dec 3, 2018)

When I saw the Capaldi run I couldn't help but analyze everything that happened.

But watching the new season I've been doing that less and less. And that's a good thing. I've just been enjoying the show. I like Capaldi, but it really wasn't easy viewing. Whittaker is fun.


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## Aeson (Dec 3, 2018)

jonesy said:


> When I saw the Capaldi run I couldn't help but analyze everything that happened.
> 
> But watching the new season I've been doing that less and less. And that's a good thing. I've just been enjoying the show. I like Capaldi, but it really wasn't easy viewing. Whittaker is fun.




That's me. I watch to enjoy not to look for what's wrong.


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## Jester David (Dec 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I don't think so. Not in the way that Tennant and Smith did.




I’d disagree. The 3rd and 6th Doctors were all about the bombast and claiming authority in the situation. 

But most of the Doctors are a little more subtle. The 13th still reminds most of the 5th, who was the more soft spoken figure. Or the 7th when he’s being disarmingly friendly.
But recent Doctors have turned it up a bit more as it acknowledges the Doctor’s reputation and impact.



jonesy said:


> When I saw the Capaldi run I couldn't help but analyze everything that happened.
> 
> But watching the new season I've been doing that less and less. And that's a good thing. I've just been enjoying the show. I like Capaldi, but it really wasn't easy viewing. Whittaker is fun.



Modern Who is very much like a roller coaster. It works best when you sit back and just enjoy the thrill ride. But it can take a long time to make a fairly simple journey.


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## Aeson (Dec 11, 2018)

Season is over. There is a New Year special yet to come, though. Opinions on the whole? I enjoyed the season. The Doctor saved not only the Earth but 4 other planets this time around. Graham has turned into my favorite companion for this go round. I still favor Amy Pond and Rose. A short season makes it hard to do character development. I think trimming the companions down would have been a good idea. 

What if it was just Graham and Grace with The Doctor? Ryan had been the one killed, and no Yaz. Could still have the choices to make. Stay with Ryan in the mirror world. Avenge his death. Grace meeting Rosa and Martin would have been impactful.


----------



## dragoner (Dec 11, 2018)

Just watched the last one, overall, I think it's good, Whitaker and crew make for a fine Doctor Who and companions. It is holding my attention better than the last few seasons. Granted I don't watch a lot of television in general, right now Dr Who and Nightflyers are the only non-news or PBS I watch. I have watched Dr Who since Pertwee, and my favorite is still Baker, I don't really compare the various Doctors too much as it's pointless, they are all different.

What I do like about this season is that the antagonists, and situations are not rehashes of the older tropes, not that that is totally bad, Asylum is a great episode and look at the Daleks from another angle. Though for season 11, "It Takes You Away" was good, even with the frog, which was kind of a letdown, but overall it was good. I think my favorite is the "Ghost Monument", and also "Kerblam!" Not that any of the episodes were bad, these are just the ones I liked best.


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## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

So in retrospect, I think Capaldi's last two years were better than Whitaker's first, but this was better than Capaldi's first. I think overall for me, this series was enjoyable, but never wowed me. Still appointment viewing for me.

New Year's Special -- the DNA of the most dangers creature in the universe, eh? Gotta be a Dalek, right?

Then that's it until 2020. Ugh. Another year off.


----------



## delericho (Dec 11, 2018)

Morrus said:


> New Year's Special -- the DNA of the most dangers creature in the universe, eh? Gotta be a Dalek, right?




Could be the Doctor herself. After all, she's wiped out the Daleks on a few occasions, so surely she's got to be in the running.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

delericho said:


> Could be the Doctor herself. After all, she's wiped out the Daleks on a few occasions, so surely she's got to be in the running.




Could be. But they are toning down the bombast about how epic the Doctor is.

My bet is still a Dalek -- I'd bet they want to intrude Daleks in a scary way for a new generation of kids who are watching for the first time.


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## dragoner (Dec 11, 2018)

Morrus said:


> So in retrospect, I think Capaldi's last two years were better than Whitaker's first, but this was better than Capaldi's first. I think overall for me, this series was enjoyable, but never wowed me. Still appointment viewing for me.
> 
> New Year's Special -- the DNA of the most dangers creature in the universe, eh? Gotta be a Dalek, right?
> 
> Then that's it until 2020. Ugh. Another year off.




2020? That is ugh.

I bet it is a Dalek as well, and there has been speculation in the news that is what it is.

I like Capaldi, I would watch his last seasons, though every time I see a marathon with them, it's like Dr Who saves Christmas, which I know is sort of traditional at this point, but it bores me. It's a new tradition. I think I still need to see the season 10 finale again, and more, because I remember the whole Bill getting turned into a Cyberman, but then she flies off with the oil person pilot, etc. and the masters ... I'd have to watch it over, the whole season, as I lost the plot somewhere.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 11, 2018)

Tim Shaw felt like a bit of an ass-pull villain in the finale. Basically, he just happens to randomly teleport to the one place in the universe where he could consolidate enough power to wreak his terrible revenge.

It also felt like a set-up for more of a challenge to the Doctor's "don't kill" policy - because she spared this person the populations of five planets are dead, and Earth would have been next if not for a last-minute solution - but it's ignored in favour of her being granted the firm moral high ground against Graham's lapse towards revenge. I'm not sure whether the writers deliberately skirted that angle, or just didn't even see it.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Tim Shaw felt like a bit of an ass-pull villain in the finale. Basically, he just happens to randomly teleport to the one place in the universe where he could consolidate enough power to wreak his terrible revenge.
> 
> It also felt like a set-up for more of a challenge to the Doctor's "don't kill" policy - because she spared this person the populations of five planets are dead, and Earth would have been next if not for a last-minute solution - but it's ignored in favour of her being granted the firm moral high ground against Graham's lapse towards revenge. I'm not sure whether the writers deliberately skirted that angle, or just didn't even see it.




The five planets were saved and returned home. That was that while wiring the TARDIS into the telepathic aliens thing.


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## dragoner (Dec 11, 2018)

Deliberately skirted, probably. Too violent and they would lose their family-friendly Sunday 8 pm time slot.


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## MarkB (Dec 11, 2018)

Morrus said:


> The five planets were saved and returned home. That was that while wiring the TARDIS into the telepathic aliens thing.




The _planets_ were saved, but the Doctor mentions when she first realises what they are that their inhabitants would have been crushed to death by the compression process. There's no indication that anything other than barren husks of worlds were restored back to their original places in space.


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## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

MarkB said:


> The _planets_ were saved, but the Doctor mentions when she first realises what they are that their inhabitants would have been crushed to death by the compression process. There's no indication that anything other than barren husks of worlds were restored back to their original places in space.




Presumably then they were that when she arrived? Her actions didn’t have anything to do with it?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Avoided reading this thread but was the season any good? We were binge watching Babylon 5, The Expanse and finishing up House of Cards so fell behind. 

 In terms of quality how does it fall between say the last 2 seasons which were a bit lame and season 2-4 (the best ones?)


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## MarkB (Dec 11, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Presumably then they were that when she arrived? Her actions didn’t have anything to do with it?




Her actions in the season premiere put Tim Shaw into the position of being able to kill planets, and provided him the motivation to do so.


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## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Avoided reading this thread but was the season any good? We were binge watching Babylon 5, The Expanse and finishing up House of Cards so fell behind.
> 
> In terms of quality how does it fall between say the last 2 seasons which were a bit lame and season 2-4 (the best ones?)




You won’t like it.


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## Morrus (Dec 11, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Her actions in the season premiere put Tim Shaw into the position of being able to kill planets, and provided him the motivation to do so.




It’s all on Tim Shaw. He is solely responsible  for his choices and actions. There is no way that anybody else has any culpability for his evil acts.


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## Richards (Dec 11, 2018)

As a season finale, that was pretty underwhelming.  Old tooth-face really didn't come across as that much of a threat.  (I get the part with the compressed planets - last seen (and better done) in the Fourth Doctor's "The Pirate Planet" - but he himself was more or less crippled and on life support.  The fact that he couldn't even fight off Graham and Ryan kind of says it all.)  And I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Ux and the fact that they're a two-person race.  Like, a whole race comprised of only two people?  Ever?  That seems like a concept that could have used some working out (or abandoning) before going to production.

All in all, this was a pretty mediocre and disappointing season.  I'll hope for a decent New Year's episode, and that with an extra year to work on the next season Chibnall will get his act together a little better.  Have we heard how many episodes the next season (in 2020) will be?  With an extra year to work on them, I would hope he'd manage to get back to the standard 13 instead of giving us another truncated 10-episode season.

Johnathan


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## Aeson (Dec 12, 2018)

Last I heard, the next season will be fewer. Chernobyl or whatever his name is was whining about the production schedule for just 10 episodes. He doesn't think they can do 10 or more in the time they've been given for next season. That may be why we have to wait until 2020. That way they can do more than 6, which is what he said they can do for 2019. I'll see if I can find the source. I could have my information wrong. It does fit the narrative we have so far , though.


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## Morrus (Dec 12, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Last I heard, the next season will be fewer.




I've not heard that. Full season in 2020 is the current information, AFAIK. But I'm happy to be corrected (well, I'm not, as I don't want it to be a short season).


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## Aeson (Dec 12, 2018)

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/bbc-explains-doctor-who-season-12-delayed-2020/#gallery-20

The sentence talking about hearing rumblings about it before is a link talking about a shorter season. It's all rumor for now.

In the end it seems they feel quality and quantity are mutually exclusive.


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## Morrus (Dec 12, 2018)

Eh. A link to an article which contains a link to a 2-month old article which refers to a tabloid article which predates the recent season. I'm happy to dismiss that one.


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## billd91 (Dec 12, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Her actions in the season premiere put Tim Shaw into the position of being able to kill planets, and provided him the motivation to do so.




She also gave him 3000 years to rethink his life - but he chose to not do that. That's on him.


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## delericho (Dec 12, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Last I heard, the next season will be fewer. Chernobyl or whatever his name is was whining about the production schedule for just 10 episodes. He doesn't think they can do 10 or more in the time they've been given for next season. That may be why we have to wait until 2020. That way they can do more than 6, which is what he said they can do for 2019. I'll see if I can find the source. I could have my information wrong. It does fit the narrative we have so far , though.




The "6 episodes next year" thing was when the BBC were holding out for some Who in 2019. Now they've delayed until 2020 that's no longer a factor. I would therefore expect 10 episodes, the same as this year.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 12, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You won’t like it.




 And hows that?


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## GreyLord (Dec 13, 2018)

Well, having not said anything until I could put the season more into perspective...

I think this was perhaps one of the best written Who season thus far.  I think they did an exceptional job at the hand off.  They knew they had to nail this season considering some of the naysayers and I think they did it perfectly.

I think it also dealt more directly with more controversial issues that are current in our society today than any other season of Doctor Who previously.  It dealt with many of the ideas that are circulating today, but with good writing and a focus on being entertaining.  

I think it is off to a great start, sad to hear the next season is so far off.  We do get a New Years special...right?


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## Aeson (Dec 13, 2018)

Yes. On January 1 2019.


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## Jester David (Dec 17, 2018)

The finale was a bit weak for my tastes. 
Again, Time Shaw just looks gross and not scary. And the "one cool thing" about his people (their bodies are super cold) doesn't come up. It's rare for individual villains in Doctor Who to be reoccurring rather than villainous species, and Tim Shaw just was not up to snuff to compete with the five or six "evil individuals". 

Graham's character arc was nice and his and Ryan's relationship has been tied up nicely. Yaz is still fun but just there more often than not.


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## Ryujin (Dec 17, 2018)

Jester David said:


> The finale was a bit weak for my tastes.
> Again, Time Shaw just looks gross and not scary. And the "one cool thing" about his people (their bodies are super cold) doesn't come up. It's rare for individual villains in Doctor Who to be reoccurring rather than villainous species, and Tim Shaw just was not up to snuff to compete with the five or six "evil individuals".
> 
> Graham's character arc was nice and his and Ryan's relationship has been tied up nicely. Yaz is still fun but just there more often than not.




One thing seemed to be missing; the connection to the holiday episode. More often than not the last episode of the series shows the direct tie to the the upcoming holiday episode but this one just... ended.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 17, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> One thing seemed to be missing; the connection to the holiday episode. More often than not the last episode of the series shows the direct tie to the the upcoming holiday episode but this one just... ended.




Hmmm. I’m thinking back. It’s happened a couple of times, but I’m sure it’s not usually connected.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 17, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Hmmm. I’m thinking back. It’s happened a couple of times, but I’m sure it’s not usually connected.




The two tat immediately jump to mind are Titanic (What?!! What?!!) and the introduction of Donna Noble.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 17, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> The two tat immediately jump to mind are Titanic (What?!! What?!!) and the introduction of Donna Noble.




You may be right. It's just not something I've noticed.


----------



## Jester David (Dec 17, 2018)

Ryujin said:


> One thing seemed to be missing; the connection to the holiday episode. More often than not the last episode of the series shows the direct tie to the the upcoming holiday episode but this one just... ended.




Yeah, it's usually connected. But not always. 
They had planned to set up _The Next Doctor_ following Donna's departure, but felt it killed the sadness. None of the Smith specials were set-up by the previous episode (but a couple did pick-up fairly quickly afterwards... more or less). And the long breaks in seasons meant they didn't set-up the latter two Capaldi specials, just _Last Christmas_ and _Twice Upon a Time_.

So... of the fourteen specials, only seven have been set-up.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 18, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Yeah, it's usually connected. But not always.
> They had planned to set up _The Next Doctor_ following Donna's departure, but felt it killed the sadness. None of the Smith specials were set-up by the previous episode (but a couple did pick-up fairly quickly afterwards... more or less). And the long breaks in seasons meant they didn't set-up the latter two Capaldi specials, just _Last Christmas_ and _Twice Upon a Time_.
> 
> So... of the fourteen specials, only seven have been set-up.




Sounds right, but then again the last episode of the series seems to generally have more weight to it than that. If not a tie-in to the holiday episode then the death of a companion, a regeneration, or the like. This one was just done. Anticlimactic.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> That said, so far I think I am .... slightly disappointed?




I think it wise to remember that with a new doctor, new companions, and new showrunner... it is basically a new show, creatively speaking.  And it usually takes a while for a new show to find its footing.  We have had 10 episodes, which is just barely long enough for them to get into the loop of writing, production, presentation, and audience feedback.  They now have a break to pause and examine their work, and make adjustments.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zardnaar (Dec 28, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I think it wise to remember that with a new doctor, new companions, and new showrunner... it is basically a new show, creatively speaking.  And it usually takes a while for a new show to find its footing.  We have had 10 episodes, which is just barely long enough for them to get into the loop of writing, production, presentation, and audience feedback.  They now have a break to pause and examine their work, and make adjustments.




 I haven't watched it yet but have caught up on everything else. For me something didn't click in the Capaldi seasons. He was fine as the Doctor I think it was the storytelling. Just finished Babylon 5/Expanse/Vikings/Outlander and House of Cards so need something new to binge watch and have the next week off.


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## MarkB (Jan 2, 2019)

I enjoyed the New Year's Day episode. The Dalek was an effective villain both as squiddy bodysnatcher and junkbot, the Doctor was suitably manic and driven in response, and the subplot with Ryan's dad worked better than it had any right to.

I'm not sure I buy the British army's timely and heavily armed response to one unidentified drone given how long it took to clear a couple out of Gatwick airspace, but I suppose they needed a Redshirts scene to show that the jury rigged Dalek could still be a menace.


----------



## Shasarak (Jan 2, 2019)

First a disclaimer that I have not had a chance to watch the Thirteenth Doctor yet and do not have any back ground on the new Doctor and Companions but the New Year episode came up on TV.

Honestly I was not impressed.  If the Dad had sacrificed himself at the end to kill the Dalek it may have salvaged the episode but unfortunately bad acting, bad special effects and bad plot were just too much to overcome.


----------



## Aeson (Jan 2, 2019)

I liked the special. Jodie has really grown on my as the Doctor. I enjoy her childishness at times. "They have the best balloons" I loved Graham's interaction with his stepson. Sadly Ryan and his interaction with his father didn't do much for me. I want to say I would be ok if they both went into the star, but that seems too harsh.


----------



## Tonguez (Jan 3, 2019)

so that UNIT gag - was that a Brexit thing?

but having a Dalek squid back was cool, nice episode, not overly original, but it was much better than the actual last episode of the season.

oh and I am a little confused about who the Custodians on Anuta Island were...


----------



## Nutation (Jan 3, 2019)

I found the episode forced and unconvincing. Somehow, ancient humans managed to damage and pry open a Dalek casing using microwave energy that should be easily available to any of the advanced civilizations that were thwarted by Dalek durability thereafter. Oh, and dismembering a Dalek doesn't kill it because "recon Daleks are different".

Of course, the microwave energy at the end wasn't going to kill the Dalek. That was already a matter of historical record, idiots.

At least, I got the satisfaction of anticipating that the Chekov's microwave hung on the wall in Act 1 would be used in Act 3.

It was not necessary to write out Unit. (Agree, maybe a Brexit reference?) That could have been Unit soldiers making a more credible attack on the Dalek and still failing in the short run. I can believe that a few Dalek parts are warehoused in central England, but eventually the thing's conventional tank armor would have been breached by an airstrike or something.

And, finally, this 2019 season of Dr. Who seemed a bit short. Maybe that's just a timey-wimey impression of it.


----------



## Richards (Jan 3, 2019)

Yeah, I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how the vastly technological inferior humans from the first millennium AD on Earth managed to overcome not just a Dalek, but a "recon Dalek" - who are apparently so much more powerful than the standard model.  Compare that to the 9th Doctor's episode, "Dalek," where a single Dalek completely overwhelms everything the modern military forces can throw at it.

And while I appreciate the "slapped together" look of the "trash Dalek" at the end, I still find it difficult to believe the squiddy alien was able to assemble something that sophisticated using Earth scraps in that short a time.  Granted, it was able to retrieve its own original blaster weapon, but creating something that could fly, and shoot missiles, seemed a bit much.  (Of course, I had the same problem with the 13th Doctor assembling her own sonic screwdriver from scratch in an Earth garage in the first episode of this season - isn't it a previously-established fact that the Doctor's sonic screwdriver uses the same software over its various incarnations, despite the fact its outer housing tends to change as the Doctor changes form?)

I didn't like the plot point of UNIT being disbanded over budget cuts.  It seems to me that an organization that has been instrumental in saving the Earth from alien threats numerous times in the past wouldn't need to justify its existence.  That just seemed overly silly.

It also seemed a bit of a cop-out to show the military vehicles being blown up by the Dalek only as explosions superimposed on the top-down view of the landscape.  (I guess they were getting low in the budget by that point?)

In any case, I still liked the episode okay - it was one of the better of the whole last season.  Although, truth be told, I think I preferred the parts when it was a Kaled mutant piggybacking on the back of a mind-controlled human riding mount.  Sticking to that - and having the Doctor and her companions trying to keep them away from the recovered Dalek technology that would allow it to rebuild a fully-functional Dalek travel machine - would have been a different way to deal with a Dalek threat that hasn't been done before.

Johnathan


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 5, 2019)

I liked it, though I agree that I don't really see a way how some 9th century humans could beat a Dalek. Unless perhaps the error is really that everyone tries to fight them at range, when they are ridicilous weak at short range? (At least a lone Dalek.) 



Richards said:


> I didn't like the plot point of UNIT being disbanded over budget cuts.  It seems to me that an organization that has been instrumental in saving the Earth from alien threats numerous times in the past wouldn't need to justify its existence.  That just seemed overly silly.



Now that you say it like that, than it really must be a Brexit joke.


----------



## dragoner (Jan 5, 2019)

I liked Resolution, it was cool, funny too in that Ryan's Dad makes an appearance only to get some tentacle-y thing on his back and almost sucked out of the Tardis. _Heresy?_ Maybe ...


----------



## MarkB (Jan 5, 2019)

Richards said:


> Yeah, I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how the vastly technological inferior humans from the first millennium AD on Earth managed to overcome not just a Dalek, but a "recon Dalek" - who are apparently so much more powerful than the standard model.  Compare that to the 9th Doctor's episode, "Dalek," where a single Dalek completely overwhelms everything the modern military forces can throw at it.



The Dalek from "Dalek" was an advanced model, from when the Daleks were at the peak of their technological prowess and directly taking on the Time Lords in the Time War. The one from this episode was suggested to be one of the first ever sent out from Skaro, old enough that it didn't even know about Skaro's destruction. The Dalek creature itself may have been particularly capable, but its outer shell was from a far older generation of technology.



> And while I appreciate the "slapped together" look of the "trash Dalek" at the end, I still find it difficult to believe the squiddy alien was able to assemble something that sophisticated using Earth scraps in that short a time.  Granted, it was able to retrieve its own original blaster weapon, but creating something that could fly, and shoot missiles, seemed a bit much.



The Dalek took more than its weapon from the institute - there were several cases packed into the back of the car. It's suggested in later dialogue that it used several of it's original surviving travel-machine systems as part of the construction, not just its gun.


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