# Are wardens overpowered?



## Kzach (Jan 10, 2010)

I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.

In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.

They have just about everything except self-healing. But even then, they have tons of healing surges!

A goliath earthstrength warden is a party unto himself.


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## yesnomu (Jan 10, 2010)

Um. No? They're much less sticky than a Fighter (though Sudden Roots helps), can't punish a shift+charge nearly as well as any other defender, and in the Earthstrength's case, have two medium to terrible NADs. They are *tough* defenders, certainly, but that really just encourages enemies to ignore them as much as they can--and when they're the only one up, they're not going to last long anyway.

I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.


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## Prism (Jan 10, 2010)

Can you provide a bit more info. I haven't seen one in play yet (new campaign with one starts soon) but there is nothing I can see in the class that provides a warden with better defenses than other defenders or attacks that are better than a striker. Surely a swordmage and paladin are going to have better defenses typically - warden with 18 CON/WIS should be on par with fighter. What sort of strikers are you comparing against as I don't see how the warden competes on damage. Resilience and stickiness look top drawer however


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## keterys (Jan 10, 2010)

It has been my general experience that wardens are all around quite decent, but not spectacular. I have not played one, but I have played alongside a few and DMed for a few. Only level range 1-14 though.

So, as far as I can tell the answer to your question is No.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

yesnomu said:


> I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.




Or it could be something like "The Warden multiclassed Barbarian, power-swapped for and is using Storm of Blades (encounter 13), and you're not playing by the rules update on it."

If so, there's an easy solution to that!


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## Doctor Proctor (Jan 11, 2010)

I play a STR/CON Dragonborn Greatweapon Fighter in a group with a STR/CON Longtooth Shifter Earthstrength Warden, and I don't see the "overpowered" aspect that you are.

I outdamage our Warden since I'm going with a two handed Execution Axe versus his Khopesh and Shield.  Granted, he could go with a bigger weapon but it wouldn't change the damage that much (he could go up to Waraxe, be 1 damage behind me, but I'm still more accurate).  I outdamage our Rogue on a crit (High Crit + Vicious = _nasty_ crits), but for average damage he's the king of the party, and we both outdamage the Warden.

As for defenses and survivability, the Warden is pretty good but not overpowered.  I think we have about the same AC, but like me he's got crap for Reflex (the shield helps a bit though) and Will defense (we both have WIS as a tertiary, so we're about the same).  Font of Life only helps for _ONE_ condition, so in terms of shaking off nasty effects, he's not _that_ far ahead of me.  He has more HP, true, but he also tends to get attacked less.  

Due to his inability to punish a shift, the DM frequently tries to get away from him and ignore his marks.  So while yeah, he can mark a lot of enemies, it's easy for them to get away from him.  On the other hand though, the DM is _very_ afraid of my mark because it hits a lot harder and a lot more often than the Warden's...plus, I have the nasty habit of killing enemies that ignore me.  

So, at least in our game, I would say that the Warden is a very tough, very capable Defender, but not overpowered.  He seems to be a bit of a generalist Defender in fact, in that a lot of the other Defenders seem to have the ability to specialize in something and do it better than the Warden.  Swordmages have more mobility and ability to protect allies, Pally's have more ability to punish more opponents and heal allies, and Fighters have more ability to do sheer damage and has a stronger mark and the ability to control enemy movement better (Combat Superiority beats Sudden Roots any day).


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## Mengu (Jan 11, 2010)

For heroic levels up to 6ish, I do not see how wardens perform any better than a fighter, paladin, or swordmage. They are nice, but if I was going to complain about a defender class that outshines others, I'd point the finger at the fighter.

To me, Warden is the baseline actually, for what a defender should be able to do.

I think playing a paladin or warden takes a good bit of finesse to bring decent performance to the table, and it seems you have a good warden player in your hands. A fighter has a much easier and straightforward array of abilities, and the many ways you can build a fighter just makes the class as versatile as can be to suit the needs of a party. Swordmages are just weird.


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## Felon (Jan 11, 2010)

So, Kzach, how does a warden outdamage other classes? it can use a two-handed superior weapon, but that doesn't distinguish it from a lot of other classes, including other defenders.


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## Kzach (Jan 11, 2010)

A 6th-level goliath earthstrength warden with +1 items can do the following:

21 AC (25 for a turn after using second wind)
19 Fort (excellent)
15 Ref (not terrible)
17 Will (good)

Has 71 hit points (without Toughness)

Has an immediate interrupt and immediate reaction against marked creatures that attack another target. One of which works up to 5 squares away.

Can save against any single effect at the start of their turn and again against the same effect if it's still on, at the end of their turn.

Has an at-will which grants temporary hit points.

Has an at-will which does striker-level damage.

If they use one of two daily powers, they gain a +6 bonus to all their damage. So for two encounters a day, they're doing more than a striker level of damage. 2d6+19 on an at-will at 6th-level.

Weight of Earth = 2d6 (r1) + 4 (strength) + 4 (crippling crush) + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 2 (iron armbands) + 4 (maw of the guardian) + 2 (crushing guardian) + 1 (weapon focus) + 1 (talon amulet).

Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Weight of Earth = 2d6 (r1) + 4 (strength) + 4 (crippling crush) + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 2 (iron armbands) + 4 (maw of the guardian) + 2 (crushing guardian) + 1 (weapon focus) + 1 (talon amulet).




Item bonuses from Iron Armbands and Talon Amulet don't stack.  

Crippling Crush is an incredibly strong feat; hadn't seen that before.  Maw of the Guardian is pretty awesome as well.



> Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.




I think this is about the degree of optimization.  This warden has taken all 4 feats (Crippling Crush, Mordenkrad Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Crushing Guardian) that add to his damage.  He's taken a particularly strong magic weapon property that adds to damage, and has taken neck slots and arm slots that add to damage.  I'm not sure there is the equivalent for other classes of Maw of the Guardian at this level, and other characters have probably not been as focused on increasing damage.

Also, you seem to be focusing a bit too much on damage on a hit.  Expected damage is what counts, and his to-hit bonus isn't going to be stellar.

Is this a really strong build?  Yes.  Is it so strong no other defender could compete?  No.


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## yesnomu (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll ignore the points that are just listing class features, especially since some of them are pretty unremarkable (Warden's Grasp is easily the least useful defender punishment, for example). Likewise, two other defenders have THP-granting at-wills, and anyone can take weapon focus and iron armbands.

Now, crippling crush, crushing guardian and maw of the guardian are a pretty nice combination. However! 

1) This only works for two encounters per day if the warden takes two level 1s instead of a level 1 and 5, and then only uses slowing/immob powers every turn. In my games, the wardens like using encounter powers that do other things (Earthgrasp Strike and Wildblood Frenzy are favorites), and like to use their THP at-will as well, so the +10 damage bonus wouldn't always come up.

2) Now, if they *do* just use Weight of Earth every turn, that +10 damage is pretty decent. But seriously, compare the kinds of damage bonuses real strikers can pile on: A twin-striking Ranger gets +3.5/4.5 from Quarry, double the bonuses from Weapon Focus and Iron Armbands/Bracers of Archery/Talon Amulet, and they haven't even used a power yet. My group's Ranger has a neat utility Stance that adds +3 damage to all Quarry attacks when he wins initiative over everything else, and he tends to win a lot. The Warden's situational damage bonuses are nice, but not really comparable.


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## Mengu (Jan 11, 2010)

Damagewise, it's pretty comparable to a fighter.

Let's take a look at a one handed weapon talent dwarf at level 6 (not going greatweapon, to keep it more defensive). 

Feats: Dwarven Weapon Training, Fighter Weapon Specialization, Armor Proficiency Plate, Toughness.

Some powers: Brash Strike, Villain's Menace, Battle Fury Stance, Rain of Steel

His Brash Strike with a vanilla +2 waraxe is going to be something like 

1d12+14 (+3 strength, +2 enhancement, +2 feat, +1 specialization, +2 item, +4 con) , pretty close to the warden's at-will attack.

When you start comparing dailies, Rain of Steel is going to potentially hurt multiple people for a good wallop automatically without requiring an attack roll. So that's better than any guardian form the warden can muster up. And Villain's Menace doesn't boost the damage as much as the Warden's forms, but gives an attack bonus also.

And this fighter has another ace up his sleeve with Battle Fury Stance, if he wants to sacrifice some AC for extra damage. And he can use this stance every encounter if he chooses (except when he's using Rain of Steel which is way better anyway).

Looking at defenses, the dwarf has AC 24 or so with shield, way better than the warden. When he grants combat advantage it drops to a 22, still better than Warden. His other defenses are 20/17/16, in the same ballpark as the warden. He has 69 hit points, 2 points shy of the warden.

The warden has a marking mechanic that's slightly stronger, but the dwarf's opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks are better than what the warden can do.

The dwarf can't make free saves like the warden, which is the only significant shortcoming I see at this point, though he has more item room to play with some resistances, than the warden.

At level 6, the goliath warden and dwarf fighter are looking pretty close. defensively and offensively.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

yesnomu said:


> 1) This only works for two encounters per day if the warden takes two level 1s instead of a level 1 and 5




I'm not sure why this is a problem in practice.  Form of the Winter's Herald and Form of Mountain's Thunder both seem better than any Warden level 5 daily.  



> A twin-striking Ranger gets +3.5/4.5 from Quarry, double the bonuses from Weapon Focus and Iron Armbands/Bracers of Archery/Talon Amulet, and they haven't even used a power yet.




This Warden's accuracy is only average (+10 to hit) for a 6th level character.  Characters with higher attack bonuses will get more out of damage boosts.  For reference, this character's DPR when in Guardian Form is +10 to hit AC 20, for 2d6 (r1) + 18 on a hit, which comes out to 14.7 DPR.  Outside of the Guardian Form he does 2d6 (r1) +12 on a hit, for DPR of 11.4.  Very solid, but it's not going to exceed a well-built striker!



> My group's Ranger has a neat utility Stance that adds +3 damage to all Quarry attacks when he wins initiative over everything else, and he tends to win a lot.




If so, he's been lucky.  Unless you're very well invested in initiative boosts (which, at a low level, is hard to do), beating all other combatants in initiative is rare.

The point remains: it's not that Wardens are generally too strong.  The player in question has hit on a very strong build.  It's not the only one out there.


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## Kzach (Jan 11, 2010)

Mengu said:


> His Brash Strike with a vanilla +2 waraxe is going to be something like
> 
> 1d12+14 (+3 strength, +2 enhancement, +2 feat, +1 specialization, +2 item, +4 con) , pretty close to the warden's at-will attack.




4 points off is 'pretty close'?

I don't think so.



Mengu said:


> When you start comparing dailies, Rain of Steel...




Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.

As long as we're comparing dailies, Form of Mountain's Thunder not only gives the warden the +6 damage bonus to every attack, but every successful attack also adds Strength mod to all adjacent enemies. Better than RoS by far.




Mengu said:


> Looking at defenses, the dwarf has AC 24 or so with shield, way better than the warden. When he grants combat advantage it drops to a 22, still better than Warden. His other defenses are 20/17/16, in the same ballpark as the warden. He has 69 hit points, 2 points shy of the warden.




Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.

And he's still shy of the warden's bonus damage by 10 points.

And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.



Mengu said:


> The warden has a marking mechanic that's slightly stronger, but the dwarf's opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks are better than what the warden can do.



Why are the fighter opp attacks better? Because they prevent movement? The warden can slide a target from 5 squares away or do an attack for big damage that grants CA to the rest of the group. That CA amounts to far greater a threat than halting movement. It also is better than the fighter's measly bonus to hit since the CA is granted to everyone in the party.



Mengu said:


> At level 6, the goliath warden and dwarf fighter are looking pretty close. defensively and offensively.



If you really believe this then there's not much point in arguing with you about it. I think the goliath earthstrength warden is a clear winner in all categories. If it was a winner in only one, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but it is powerful in every aspect, which to me is a clear sign it's overpowered.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.
> 
> As long as we're comparing dailies, Form of Mountain's Thunder not only gives the warden the +6 damage bonus to every attack, but every successful attack also adds Strength mod to all adjacent enemies. Better than RoS by far.




Rain of Steel doesn't need to hit, and the [W] gets bonus damage from several factors.  Not that Form of Mountain's Thunder isn't awesome



> Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.




Brash Strike only grants CA to one enemy.  It also gets +2 to hit, which means that DPR from Brash Strike will certainly be higher than DPR from Weight of Earth when no stances/guardian forms are being used (higher to hit bonus, and higher damage on a hit). 

Indeed, the above Dwarf fighter build comes out to 14.95 DPR, which means that the dwarf has (just slightly) higher at-will damage than the Warden even when the Warden is in a "generic" guardian form (14.7 DPR). 



> And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.




Indeed!  But the Warden would have to give up one of his existing feats.  Any suggestions?


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## Mengu (Jan 11, 2010)

Kzach said:


> 4 points off is 'pretty close'?
> 
> I don't think so.




It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.

You only attain the 2d6+19 when using dailies, for which the argument follows that the fighter can also use dailies.



Kzach said:


> Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.




Even with the most stringent reading of the rules, that's 6.5 extra damage. A whole lot more when you add static modifiers. And you don't have to hit. It just happens on the enemy's turn. Again comparable to the 6 you get for using a guardian form.



Kzach said:


> Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.




How are you going from 24 to 20? combat advantage is combat advantage. You can't doubly grant combat advantage.



Kzach said:


> And he's still shy of the warden's bonus damage by 10 points.




Not sure what 10 points you're talking about.



Kzach said:


> And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.




Except by the time the warden picks up toughness, the dwarf will be picking up another feat. It's not a race, I'm just comparing the two level 6 builds.



Kzach said:


> Why are the fighter opp attacks better? Because they prevent movement? The warden can slide a target from 5 squares away or do an attack for big damage that grants CA to the rest of the group. That CA amounts to far greater a threat than halting movement. It also is better than the fighter's measly bonus to hit since the CA is granted to everyone in the party.




Fighter opportunity attacks are more accurate (+2 or so from wis in the case of the dwarf), and yes, they stop movement. The warden's slide is a reaction, which only happens after the enemy has already done whatever it's going to do. And the warden does not get a combat challenge attack when the enemy shifts which is a pretty big plus for the fighter.

Also Warden's Fury is not an opportunity attack. Warden opportunity attacks do nothing special. Fighter opportunity attacks stop people.



Kzach said:


> If you really believe this then there's not much point in arguing with you about it.




You posed a question. Are Wardens overpowered? I gave a comparative answer. You can just say we disagree.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

Mengu said:


> It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.
> 
> You only attain the 2d6+19 when using dailies, for which the argument follows that the fighter can also use dailies.




2d6+12.  As I pointed out above, he was double-counting the item bonuses to damage (and the Talon amulet requires combat advantage anyway, which isn't reasonable to assume at 100% on a build like this).


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## keterys (Jan 11, 2010)

Hah, nice. So basically - wardens on their own are just fine, but the real complaint is actually with a few things that were added long after wardens in order to boost their performance. Primarily that of hammer-using Earthstrength Wardens, for some reason.

Crippling Crush compares very strongly to other feats of a similar nature. Compare to the domain feats that add +2/+3/+4 damage to a particular at-will, for instance.

Maw of the Guardian should probably add its enhancement bonus as an item bonus to compare to other items.

Crushing Guardian compares strongly to, for example, Deadly Rage which functions much the same, but deals less damage, on a striker class.

And if it's not a hammer-using earthstrength warden, it probably doesn't get any of that. So the problem is more likely with a specific warden or build of warden, not with the warden class. Feycharger existing doesn't mean Eladrin are broken.


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## Elric (Jan 11, 2010)

keterys said:


> Hah, nice...




I agree with everything (as usual), except



> Maw of the Guardian should probably add its enhancement bonus as an item bonus to compare to other items.




Normative statements aside, items that grant untyped damage bonuses aren't exactly rare.  Great game design at work!  

Edit- compared to Footpad's Friend, a similar but significantly weaker item, what's most surprising about the Maw of the Guardian is that it's available at level 4.  Back in AV 1 Wizards still knew enough not to make a level 5 version of Footpad's Friend.


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## keterys (Jan 11, 2010)

So, it depends... a few months ago I'd have agreed that Maw of the Guardian was not atypical for such weapons. But after Bloodclaw and Reckless took the hit, I've lowered my bar quite a bit. I was figuring it to look a lot more like Radiant, but much lower level. 

Footpad's Friend I actually think more addresses a perceived imbalance in possible damage output between Brutal Scoundrels and Artful Tricksters than anything else. And it had to compare to Reckless, Bloodclaw, Subtle, and Frost 

And my gut feeling is that Subtle is going to get nerfed.

Perhaps it's Con-based because they're assuming that most Wis wardens are going Pit Fighter or Son of Mercy and can add Wisdom to damage (plus the Wis to damage they get on a couple of powers anyways), so they wanted to catch Con wardens up to that. If so, they had that idea in Primal Power and Dragon 379 too 

But, sure, +Enhancement untyped while in guardian. It at least pushes things off to high level.


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## Felon (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, one thing to note is that "striker-level damage" is a loaded term. Frankly, I think most of the little striker bonuses to damage (quarry, sneak attack, curse) don't really grant much of a lead. Certainly a good build can catch up to it, and the designers seem to feel t's fine to give defenders the means to do so. I mean, you have defenders having access to 3[W] encounter attacks and 4[W] dailies while some strikers don't. And idefenders can make use of a two-handed superior weapon, which is really where multiples of [W] really start to achieve lift-off (and notice that the PHB strikers specifically don't use them). 

So, defenders achieving striker-level damage output while also enjoying high defenses and HP is nothing new.


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## Kzach (Jan 11, 2010)

Elric said:


> 2d6+12.  As I pointed out above, he was double-counting the item bonuses to damage (and the Talon amulet requires combat advantage anyway, which isn't reasonable to assume at 100% on a build like this).




2d6+18.


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## ricardo440 (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I played a warden. Didn't survive encounter 2. So I don't like, them, but I might be a bit bias.

I have never accepted that more HP is a good defence. 

Two bullywug muckers and some bullywug minions soon saw the end of me. 2 rounds I think I lasted.

I know it is not comparable to the builds people are mentioning here. But damage expressions are not that important if your warden is lying on the floor bleeding out because of a couple of Brutes.


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## Doctor Proctor (Jan 11, 2010)

Kzach said:


> 2d6+18.




You know, if you're gonna make a thread about how Wardens are overpowered, at least have the decency to actually read the responses.  2d6+18 is not an accurate comparison here.

As Mengu pointed out:



> It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.




Now, when you're comparing the Warden in a Guardian form, he gets +6 damage on a hit, which comes out to 27 average damage _on a hit_.

The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss.  So, he'll actually hit for 27 damage (same as the Warden), but also do 6.5 damage per round to any adjacent enemy without needing an attack roll.  So in fact, he'll actually outdamage the Warden over the course of the encounter provided that he has multiple enemies around him.

Alternatively, he can use Villain's Menace.  Assuming that he hits with the power, that's a +2 to attack (bringing up +3 compared to the Warden, meaning he hits approximately 15% more often) and adding a flat +4 to damage.  So while now he's 2.5 damage behind the Warden in Guardian form, he'll probably still outdamage him over time due to the increased accuracy of each of his attacks.

There's also Bedevilling Assault, which is a great 5th level power from Martial Power.  Basically, once per round when an ally hits the target the Fighter gets to make a melee basic attack as a free action.  This would come out to 1d12+10, which is an average of 16.5 damage every time he hits on the free attack.  Assuming a 50% hit rate, this increases his damage against the target to about +8.25/round.  Combine it with Villain's Menace and it gets _really_ nasty because now it's 1d12+14 and he's at a +2 to hit.

Speaking of which, that's one thing that Fighters have over Wardens.  A Warden can only use one Guardian form at a time, whereas a Fighter has many powers which aren't stances that can stack certain bonuses.  You can freely combine Villain's Menace with Rain of Steel or Bedevilling Assault in a single encounter for a _large_ spike in damage.  Perfect for taking down a BBEG.


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## Larrin (Jan 11, 2010)

Having played a warden from level 6-10, i can say that overall I did what a defender should do, with the trade off that i never did much damage.  Thus until the OP spelled out the method his warden is using to get striker level damage, i was a little surprised at his statement.  I think the problem is in the feats.  You can argue back and forth over whether a fighter can match that damage, it doesn't matter.  Just looking at the way you can stack those feats/items...its a little much.  Typed bonuses exist for the very reason of stopping this from happening, its too bad they weren't used here.  If the feats gave feat bonuses, the items item bonuses, it would still be a good damage boost and all the feats and items would still be valid to take.


Bottom line: Warden = good, that specific build=cheese.


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## Herschel (Jan 11, 2010)

I play an 8th-level Deva Avenger (+1 Fullblade and expertise) next to a Dwarven Warden (+2 Waraxe, Iron Armbands, Dwarven Weapon Training) in one campaign and per at-will hit he does more damage but generally I don't miss. That's a huge boon to me.


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## Destil (Jan 12, 2010)

Doctor Proctor said:


> The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss.  So, he'll actually hit for 27 damage (same as the Warden), but also do 6.5 damage per round to any adjacent enemy without needing an attack roll.  So in fact, he'll actually outdamage the Warden over the course of the encounter provided that he has multiple enemies around him.
> BBEG.



I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)


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## chitzk0i (Jan 12, 2010)

Destil said:


> I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)




Enhancement and feat bonuses do add to _rain of steel_, but iron armbands definitely do not, since they specify melee damage rolls.


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## Doctor Proctor (Jan 12, 2010)

Destil said:


> I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)






chitzk0i said:


> Enhancement and feat bonuses do add to _rain of steel_, but iron armbands definitely do not, since they specify melee damage rolls.




Ah, true, I neglected to include that.  Yes, things like Iron Armbands of Power won't work, as chitzk0i pointed out, but the rest will.  This only serves to further increase the damage that Rain of Steel is pumping out each round.

Point being that a similarly optimized Fighter will keep up nicely with the Warden's damage where At-Wills are concerned, and can easily surpass it once dailies start getting tossed around.  In return, the Warden gets multimarking and increased resilience.  Both of these classes, however, will probably do less damage than a similarly optimized striker build.


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## Elric (Jan 12, 2010)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Point being that a similarly optimized Fighter will keep up nicely with the Warden's damage where At-Wills are concerned, and can easily surpass it once dailies start getting tossed around.  In return, the Warden gets multimarking and increased resilience.  Both of these classes, however, will probably do less damage than a similarly optimized striker build.




There's no equivalent for the Fighter to that extra Con damage when in Guardian form hammer, particularly in heroic.  Of course, there's no equivalently good item for the Warden.  That item is just much too good.  Crushing Guardian is a bit stronger than it should be, and Crippling Crush is somewhat stronger than it should be, and even other extremely powerful damage-boosting feats typically aren't available until at least Paragon.

Still, there's no problem with Wardens in general.  As keterys said, if this Warden had taken an axe instead of a hammer, he'd lose access to all of the above.


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## Danceofmasks (Jan 12, 2010)

Yes well, even all those 'stronger than they should be' feats considered, I reckon Fighters have higher defenses _and_ higher damage output in heroic.

Fighters are awesome multi-target attackers, and their marking mechanic supports it.

Come and Get It is teh win. Rain of Steel is teh win. Sweeping Blow is teh win.
Those can all be done on the same round.
Fighters have higher hitrolls (and I don't just mean weapon talent, they wear heavy armour so they can afford to max strength)
Passing Attack is nice.
Tempest Dance is funky, Stop Thrust is awesome.

But the argument is irrelevant.
In order to see which build is "better," you gotta run scenarios.
Multiple tests with same encounters, mostly-same party except for teh defender (and maybe a few things switched around in the party for synergy's sake).


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## Elric (Jan 12, 2010)

Danceofmasks said:


> But the argument is irrelevant.
> In order to see which build is "better," you gotta run scenarios.
> Multiple tests with same encounters, mostly-same party except for teh defender (and maybe a few things switched around in the party for synergy's sake).




Then you can create a measure of how well each build does based on the results of the encounters.  However, that could be very difficult, so maybe just categorize them according to "Warden party did better; Fighter party did better."  To get the margin of error down to a reasonable 3% level, run about 1000 fights.  No problem 

This goes to show the impossibility of using by-hand testing results to establish any propositions about character superiority.  You could make a character who was strictly inferior to another one (a Hammer Warden who took Weapon Proficiency: Whip just for kicks- and didn't buy a whip- versus one who spent the feat wisely), and the strictly better Warden might come out ahead in 55% of the encounters due to the high variability of d20s.  Even that would take hundreds of tests to notice statistically, though in this special case you could answer the question ("Which character is better?") without any tests.


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## Danceofmasks (Jan 12, 2010)

I already know the answer, though.

That OMFG it's OP reaction Kzach has for that particular warden ... I get that for every character I build.
And I don't do stupid things like have a defender with an AC the equivalent of +1 scale on its own at level 6.
That's leader AC, yo ... fail tank fails.


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## Blackbrrd (Jan 12, 2010)

The OP asked the question: "*Are wardens overpowered?*

The answer is that compared to the Dwarf Battlevigor Fighter, he isn't. The fighter gets a particularily strong encounter power at level 7: Come and get it. So, if they were comparable before level 7, the fighter probably outshines the warden around that level.

Compared to a lot of builds, the build with the specific items in mention is overpowered at level 6. On the other hand, there are a lot of cheesy builds out there, maybe two-three of them per class.

Until I saw this Warden build I thought the Warden was rather lackluster, now I think it looks ok. The only defender I haven't "liked" is the Swordmage which I find a bit bland.


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## Kzach (Jan 12, 2010)

Doctor Proctor said:


> The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss.




Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.

Maybe it's you who should pay attention.

I never mentioned Rough Strike. 4d6 (brutal 1) + 22. Or + 26 with Wrathful Mastery.

Then of course there's the Form that auto damages every target adjacent to the warden... much like Rain of Steel.


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## Blackbrrd (Jan 12, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.
> 
> Maybe it's you who should pay attention.
> 
> ...



Can you please just post the whole build?

Anyway, have you gotten an answer to your post - that is that there are other defender builds that are in the same league?

If you need more proof, you can probably compare the raw damage output/survivability with for instance the fighter in the montecarlo thread (they are comparing builds through simulation). If you help supply the build they might do a simulation with the it.


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## Doctor Proctor (Jan 12, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.
> 
> Maybe it's you who should pay attention.
> 
> ...




As I noted before, he gets that twice a day by using two dailies, which the Fighter can do too (Villain's Menace adds +2 to hit and +4 damage).

As for Rough Strike, that's an encounter power...so what.  The Fighter has Sweeping Blow, Rain of Blows, etc...all at the same level.  

And what's Wrathful Mastery?  A feat?  If so, how does it fit in with the other feats you already named?  You haven't even posted a real "build" yet complete with what feats this PC is supposedly taking for comparison.  And we haven't even started discussing alternate Fighter builds or other feats they could take.

Point is, don't make a thread asking a question when you've already decided on an answer.  You asked if Warden's are OP, and everyone is saying no (although there may be aspects of the build that are OP, the class as a whole is not), so there's your answer.


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## sigfile (Jan 12, 2010)

Although it's fairly pointless to speculate about errata, I'm going to do it anyway.

I'd be stunned if some of those non-typed damage feats don't get a "feat" type applied to them.  Weapon Focus, Crippling Crush, and Crushing Guardian all give a character a damage bonus for using a hammer or mace.  While I certainly AM making a hammer warden for LFR, I'm not going to get overattached to his damage output.


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## Dayspire (Jan 12, 2010)

Doctor Proctor said:


> (snip)
> Point is, don't make a thread asking a question when you've already decided on an answer.



Too late.  He decided on the answer long ago, and he's ignored evidence to the contrary since then.


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## Mistwell (Jan 12, 2010)

I know it wasn't the point of you posting this build, but thanks anyway for the build info Kzach.  For reference, here is the build I am working on, that is slightly different, but in the similar tone.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Crippling Crusher, level 20
Goliath, Warden, Winter Fury
Build: Earth Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 23, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 35 Fort: 33 Reflex: 26 Will: 28
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +18, Perception +16, Endurance +20, Athletics +22, Acrobatics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +11, Heal +11, History +10, Insight +11, Intimidate +9, Religion +10, Stealth +10, Streetwise +9, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Crippling Crush
Level 2: Sudden Roots
Level 4: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 8: Berserker's Fury
Level 10: Crushing Guardian
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: Hammer Rhythm
Level 14: Wintertouched
Level 16: Crushing Earthstrength
Level 18: Paragon Defenses
Level 20: Guard of Stone

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Tempest Assault
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden encounter 1: Gale Strike
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Warden encounter 3: Rough Strike
Warden daily 5: Form of the Dread Serpent
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Winter's Claws
Warden daily 9: Form of Paradise's Bounty
Warden utility 10: Guardian's Attack
Warden encounter 13: Icy Shards (replaces Gale Strike)
Warden daily 15: Form of the Stonecrusher (replaces Form of the Dread Serpent)
Warden utility 16: Cleansing Earth
Warden encounter 17: Call Forth the Harvest (replaces Rough Strike)
Warden daily 19: Howl of Wrath (replaces Form of Winter's Herald)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Summoned Stalkerhide Armor +5, Brooch of Vitality +4, Maw of the Guardian Maul +4, Frost Gauntlets (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ====== 

I am considering switching to Dwarf.  I lose a point of strength, a point of speed, and Stone's Endurance.  But I gain second wind as a minor action (a big deal for a warden), the ability to use a shield and a craghammer instead of a two-handed maul, and dwarven weapon training instead of goliath greatweapon.  Plus the Guard of Earth feat is lost due to it being Goliath-only, but since we get another warden article and another dwarf article this month in dragon I bet there is something as good that comes out well before I reach higher levels.


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## Kzach (Jan 12, 2010)

Might want to add in Courage of the Lone Stag as well. +2 damage against opponents you've marked when you're adjacent to three marked opponents or more. As a defender, that tends to happen a lot.


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## Mistwell (Jan 12, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Might want to add in Courage of the Lone Stag as well. +2 damage against opponents you've marked when you're adjacent to three marked opponents or more. As a defender, that tends to happen a lot.




In the actual game I plan on using this character in, we get Weapon Expertise and Paragon Defenses for free.  So yes, I had that on my likely list of feats to add later one.  Though I will see how it plays out.  I suspect I will be wanting AC more than more another +2 damage, at higher levels.


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## Bast1ano (Jun 10, 2010)

*Hammer Warden OP*

I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.

I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.

WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.


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## Aulirophile (Jun 10, 2010)

Bast1ano said:


> I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.
> 
> I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.
> 
> WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.



22 minimum damage would be tough to pull off. 19 with +2 weapon, Crippling Crush, Maw of the Guardian, Iron Armbands, Strength, Weapon Focus, with a brutal 1 weapon would do it. Do you have his build?

Going to go out on a limb and say the Warden is heavily optimized and your strikers aren't, though. If you've never seen a Striker one-round an even level elite from full > dead, they aren't optimized (possible for Rogues, Rangers, Avengers, Barbarians... not so much Sorcs or Warlocks, but being able to Nova isn't part of their shtick).


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## fba827 (Jun 10, 2010)

you just have particular build choices that emphasized the defender/striker aspects 
i don't think wardens as a class are overpowered.

(in my opinion) a class could be called overpowered when the base class itself does all those things without regard for items, feats, etc that are chosen - at least that is the measuring stick that i use..


a fighter is much better being sticky and if you chose items and feats to boost damage and toughness, then you'd end up with something similar with a slightly different focus and flavor.

of course, ymmv.


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## ourchair (Jun 10, 2010)

I played a Warforged Warden for 11 levels straight, and I never felt overpowered. 

I never went down at all, because I was maxing out CON, piling on temporary HPs and using Cloak of the Walking Wounded and Dwarven Armor to max out my ability to surge in a given encounter but I wasn't doing nearly as much damage as the Deva Avenger.

There's something to be said about the design of 4e that no matter how hard you min max something, other players in different roles will do things better than you do, so it is difficult to be a one-man party.


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## Istar (Jun 10, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.
> 
> In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.
> 
> ...




I agree, our party had a Fighter and a Paladin, and when the Barbarian died he came back as a Warden and his is a million times better than these 2 in every respect.
Why would you be a fighter now ?
The health and surges are crazy, and on top of that he has easy THP and many powers and feats that trigger the use of surges, so they are effectively self healing.
On top of that they outdo a lot of class's on damage with a basic L1 at will that does over 15 HP and slows the enemy.

I am going to be a Dwarven Warden next campaign, they get more surges and add Con, and 2nd wind as a minor, plus I am sure you can create more 2nd winds.


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## Istar (Jun 10, 2010)

ourchair said:


> I played a Warforged Warden for 11 levels straight, and I never felt overpowered.
> 
> I never went down at all, because I was maxing out CON, piling on temporary HPs and using Cloak of the Walking Wounded and Dwarven Armor to max out my ability to surge in a given encounter but I wasn't doing nearly as much damage as the Deva Avenger.
> 
> There's something to be said about the design of 4e that no matter how hard you min max something, other players in different roles will do things better than you do, so it is difficult to be a one-man party.




What you were never threatened but didnt feel overpowered.
Of course you didnt, more like invincible / untouchable


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## Aulirophile (Jun 10, 2010)

Istar said:


> Why would you be a fighter now ?



Let us back up a second. I love Wardens. They are probably my favorite class in 4e, having played all of them barring PHB3 classes (well, Runepriest). The Fighter is, hands down imo, the _best _designed class in 4e and the best Defender by a large margin (I don't think that part is up for debate). There is basically not a single Warden build optimized for defending (be that through stickiness, a really dangerous Mark, battlefield control, etc.,) that does not MC into Fighter for Fighter specific Feats/PPs/EDs, though I concede a Striker-ish one would MC into Barbarian. The reverse is not true, the Fighter does not have to MC at all to be optimized. Though if you are going to make a high control BRV Fighter, MCing Warden for Crippling Crush is a good option, I admit it (and arguably better for the Fighter then it is for the Warden). 

I'm willing to back that up, as well. Anyone can post a Warden build. I will post a Fighter build that does everything that Warden build does, only better (damage, defendering, defenses, battlefield control, mobility, you name it). This is a game, there is always going to be a best. Not most fun, or most flavorful, or even most liked, but the best at doing a job. 

@*Ourchair:* You played a Warden with Dwarven Armor?


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## Black Knight Irios (Jun 10, 2010)

Bast1ano said:


> I've run a game with one of these wardens for 12 levels now. I can say without a doubt his damage is the highest in the group. Save for a couple of times an AoE attack from the wizard has racked up crazy high numbers, no one can keep up. his minimum damage while in one of his daily forms is 22. When we had a ranger that was about the only time anyone else in the group could compare and even then it was about even.
> 
> I'm hoping paragon will see the other striker classes pass him up but I'm not counting on it. It's just demoralizing to watch those players who chose striker classes fall short compared someone with 100+ hp and the AC to boot out damage them.
> 
> WoTC has closed smaller gaps in their rules for weaker reasons. Not sure what's taking them so long to get to this one.




W/o knowing the other chars and their builds in addition to the warden's build your statement proves nothing. Additionally, player skills (system mastery/tactics/...) are important as well, it's critical to know when to use some powers to get maximum effect.

And I agree with most of the enworlders here that one good/powerful warden build =/= wardens are overpowered.


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## Neonchameleon (Jun 10, 2010)

Kzach said:


> A 6th-level goliath earthstrength warden with +1 items can do the following:
> 
> 21 AC (25 for a turn after using second wind)
> 19 Fort (excellent)
> ...




For comparison:

At 6th level, any character with +1 items will have a minimum reflex of 14 assuming no more than a 11 in Int and Dex. It is _one point higher than the mathematically lowest reflex defence possible to any PC at that level_. And this in a character designed to be pounded on. That's not terrible, that's absolutely abysmal.

His will isn't "good" either. Take a Wis 14 character, give him a +1 item, and a +1 from one other source (e.g. being human or a class feature) and you're already up to 17. As a secondary defence, that's only average at best.

As for his AC, we'll take an Invoker as more or less the yardstick for a squishy. +1 Chain armour means the Invoker has an AC of 20. This is one of the two squishiest classes in the game, and not designed to be in melee combat at all. And your warden only beats him by one.

For _good_ defences, I have a 4th level human monk. Dex 19, Wis 16, Con 14. 21 AC (at level 4 - 4 stat, 2 class, 2 feat, 2 level, 1 item). Fort: 18 (2 stat, 2 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). Ref: 19 (4 stat, 1 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). Will: 18 (3 stat, 1 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). At level 6, his _lowest_ NAD will be equal to your supposedly excellent defence.

Alternatively I have a 4th level human Bravura Warlord (I think I have his NADs right). AC: 22 (+1 Scale, Large Shield). Fort: 19 (Str (+4), Level (+2), class (+1), Item (+1) Human (+1)). Ref: 18 (Int (+2), Level (+2), Shield (+2), Human (+1), Item (+1)). Will: 17 (Cha (+2), Level (+2), Class (+1) Human (+1), Item (+1)). At 6th level his average defences are two higher than yours.  (And his at will damage is 2 higher than the basic attack for either the Str 21 fighter or the Melee trained Avenger. Unless he's Brash Assaulting when it gets scary).  For that matter he's just gone up to AC 24 by investing in +2 masterwork armour.  Leaving you even further off the curve (at L6 he will match your second wind AC _all the time)_.

And what's worse is that your two weak defences are only going to drop further behind as you level.

Finally on the subject of your supposedly excellent 19:  If you have a starting stat of 18 in your high stat, a +1 item, and are level 6, you're already at 18.  This is the practical minimum for a high defence if you have any race/class synergy.  So even that isn't great.



> Has 71 hit points (without Toughness)




I'll grant that's pretty useful. He needs it - it's his job to take damage, and his defences are weak. He's going to get hit lots.



> Has an immediate interrupt and immediate reaction against marked creatures that attack another target. One of which works up to 5 squares away.




The interrupt is nice. Until people simply shift away. Or hit him. The reaction doesn't do that much. Give me the fighter equivalent anytime.



> Can save against any single effect at the start of their turn and again against the same effect if it's still on, at the end of their turn.




Good against ongoing damage. IME the status effects that crop up most and will keep him out of the action are end of next turn effects. Still, nothing to grumble about.



> Has an at-will which grants temporary hit points.




Useful. So do most defenders.



> Has an at-will which does striker-level damage.




And that one's nice.



> Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.




Um... no. Your maths are wrong, your defences suck, and your marking doesn't hold people next to you the way a fighter's does or screw them up at range the way a Swordmage's does. You just have a very powerful offence caused by a combination of borderline-broken feats for the hammer.


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## ourchair (Jun 10, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> @*Ourchair:* You played a Warden with Dwarven Armor?



Dwarven HIDE armor.

Unless there is no dwarven hide and we made a mistake and that enchantment is not available for that type of armor.


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## nogray (Jun 10, 2010)

ourchair said:
			
		

> Unless there is no dwarven hide and we made a mistake and that enchantment is not available for that type of armor.




Ayup. That's what Aulirophile's sort of saying. Dwarven Armor applies to chain, scale, and plate only, by RAW.


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## Zaran (Jun 10, 2010)

> Ayup. That's what Aulirophile's sort of saying. Dwarven Armor applies to chain, scale, and plate only, by RAW.




If the GM wanted to gloss over the mistake they could just say it's a chain shirt with the same stats as Hide armor.


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## Aulirophile (Jun 10, 2010)

Zaran said:


> If the GM wanted to gloss over the mistake they could just say it's a chain shirt with the same stats as Hide armor.



The DM can houserule it to work on Hide, just by RAW it doesn't, and Wardens shouldn't be wearing heavy armor. So I was confused.


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## ourchair (Jun 11, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> The DM can houserule it to work on Hide, just by RAW it doesn't, and Wardens shouldn't be wearing heavy armor. So I was confused.



Yeah. 

It's made Dwarven Hide Armor, made from real dwarves!

You know those Kundaraks, they'd sell their own mother's skin for cold, hard Galifarean cash.


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## Istar (Aug 30, 2012)

Kzach said:


> I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.
> 
> In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.
> 
> ...




Thats me, Hootch the Goliath Warden.
My twin Scar Ski, he is a Goliath too, but he is a Barbarian.
We are very strong, but not overly bright


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## Istar (Aug 30, 2012)

yesnomu said:


> Um. No? They're much less sticky than a Fighter (though Sudden Roots helps), can't punish a shift+charge nearly as well as any other defender, and in the Earthstrength's case, have two medium to terrible NADs. They are *tough* defenders, certainly, but that really just encourages enemies to ignore them as much as they can--and when they're the only one up, they're not going to last long anyway.
> 
> I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.




With a Form, and a utility, for 2 encounters per day, no enemy can shift away from them, I would say that is pretty sticky !!


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## Hyatt (Aug 31, 2012)

Wardens are not overpowered; they're a pretty balanced, average class.  Fighters are better, especially once you hit level 7 and CAGI.  A completely vanilla brutal scoundrel rogue doing piercing strike will hit for more damage than this due to vastly increased accuracy (24.5 damage w/nimble blade/backstabber/light blade expertise + 5 dex + 2d8+3 sneak + 2 iron armbands + 3.5 rapier + 1 enh + 1 lbe), and +~6 to hit from higher prof, nimble blade, expertise, and targeting Reflex).  But more importantly, the rogue can low slash for extra damage, and is not using his dailies to accomplish any of this damage.

The defenses of that warden are subpar also.  The Fort is ok, but the AC and Will are both low (you expect one abysmal defense in Reflex, but going Str/Con nets you two).  In particular, weapon focus is not that great a feat to have at level 6 for a meager +1 damage; he almost certainly has a better choice than that.

Finally, if you're assuming one of those daillies is "always up", the problem may be not having enough fights per day.  4th edition really needs more 4-6 fights a day to be balanced, so if there are only two, any class with great encounter-long dailies might look overpowered.  Similarly, if the group is not optimized (especially the other strikers), and fights are going long, at-will damage and dailies that last all encounter will seem more powerful/important than they actually are (fights should not be going more than 3-4 rounds unless something wacky is going on with the terrain that would draw the fight out).

At-will damage is not a very good way to tell if a character is optimized.  How much they can frontload into 1-2 rounds of combat is a much more important metric, and ranger, rogue, and sorcerer are all going to do much more.


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## GreyICE (Aug 31, 2012)

The Defender scale

---Top Tier---
Fighter (every CharOp 'ultimate defender' ends up multiclassing Fighter for their sexy feats)
Knight (possibly best defender currently although DM is allowed to throw book at you if you abuse them)
---Mid Tier---
Paladin
Warden
Swordmage 
---Battlemind Tier---
Battlemind (unless ruthlessly optimized, then rises to mid-tier)




Istar said:


> With a Form, and a utility, for 2 encounters per day, no enemy can shift away from them, I would say that is pretty sticky !!




Cool, for two encounters per day they're ridiculously sticky unless you have anyone who attacks in melee.  

Meanwhile for infinity encounters per day a Fighter can lock down 1/2 to 3/4ths of the monsters at any given point, and let the party handle the rest.  And that's really all you need.  I've tried to optimize the Warden, I've taken him to some pretty ridiculous limits, but you still come back to the fact that you're jumping through hoops while the fighter can afford to be sticky AND do other things by virtue of having a ridiculously sticky feature as his "Defender Power."

Wardens are still tougher than houses and are an HP nightmare with Surge values that can trivialize immense amounts of damage, and... *sigh*

You know what? 4E is roughly balanced.  Maybe an optimized party would rather have a fighter, but it's close enough you won't see the 3E Wizard/Fighter dichotomy if you bring a Warden over one.  But yeah, Wardens are definitely balanced.

(Side note: If you have a DM who thinks monsters should run over to the defender and proceed to try and beat him into a pile of dust, Warden is probably overpowered as they're the hands-down best defender at taking damage like a pro)


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## bbjore (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm with the group that says they're not overpowered at all, I only stopped in to say that they can definitely seem that way looking at their hp, but you have to look at their effectiveness in play. In my campaign, we had an awesome Warden, pumped AC, powers to be even more resilient. He was pretty much unkillable. I found this frustrating as a DM, so much so that one day I vowed I would at least drop the PC by the end of the month. Turns out focus firing on the warden only took the pressure entirely off the rest of the party, and they had free reign to keep him on his feet. Needless to say I was unsuccessful. Then I remembered wardens aren't very good at tying down monster. I spent the next session ignoring the warden completely, and promptly dropped two PCs with focus fire (hey a GMs vengeance can be bitter). Point of the story, PCs are more than numbers, you have to look at powers to evaluate them. The warden is a nice class with nice flavors and mechanics that back it up, but definitely not overpowered.

That player switched to a Dwarven Knight with a feyslaughter weapon a few months later. As a GM, I refer to the days when he had the warden "the good days" and the days of the Knight "the dark days." All in good fun of course.


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