# Power of Skill - is it as broken as I think it is?



## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

The feat allows you to use 4 powerful at-wills in place of a basic attack.


> *Power of Skill [Domain]*
> 
> *Prerequisite*: Any divine class, must worship a deity of the skill domain
> *Benefit*: You gain a +1 feat bonus to trained skill checks.
> ...




With Quicksilver Stance you get those attacks as a move action replacement.



> *Quicksilver Stance*
> 
> _Like liquid metal, you flow wherever the gravity of battle carries you._
> *Daily*
> ...





Feral Armor grants you a burst 1 encounter power, all attacks with one of those at-wills.



> *Feral Armor*
> 
> _This armor causes its wearer to develop a ferocious streak, like that of the predator that once wore the same skin._
> *Level*: 7
> ...




This one combined with a reach weapon grants you reach 3 with those powerful at-wills.



> *Weapon of Myrdroon's Shard*
> 
> _Made from a shard of Myrdroon’s spear, this weapon looses devastating lightning._
> *Level*: 4
> ...




And so on. Crazy?


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## DracoSuave (Aug 19, 2009)

Nice synergy.

Except the part of using the feral armor attack with a weapon other than its claw.  That part's sketchy.

Cause that other weapon isn't the claw attack granted by the armor.

But otherwise, crazy.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 19, 2009)

Boo to DracoDoubleposting


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

I can make a list of dozens of powers and items that abuse this feat. What were they thinking?
It also works on OA, so you practically get HBO without heavy blades and the atribute requirements.
I have so many possible builds and combos in my head I'm getting dizzy.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm not sure it's all the broken, though on the surface allowing someone to swap out basic attacks with at-wills is a significant candidate for brokenness.  In this case, however, the prerequisite is pretty steep.  Using Power of Skill and a Fight Attack 15 power is a major impediment.  It would require a significant investment to obtain, wouldn't it?  And, at that level is it really broken compared to similar powers of the PC's level?


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

That Quicksilver Stance is just one example. With the Power of Skill feat alone you can get HBO at level 1


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## N8Ball (Aug 19, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> That Quicksilver Stance is just one example. With the Power of Skill feat alone you can get HBO at level 1




True, but it's hardly as versatile as HBO.  

In all likelyhood you only have one of those at-wills available to use as a basic attack, so it's not like you can put together any of the super-glaive-push-pull-knockdown effects that are made available with HBO and corresponding feats.


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## Turtlejay (Aug 19, 2009)

I guess what I hate, is that like Righteous Rage of Tempus, it will encourage God choice for stupid reasons.  How many worshippers of Tempus can there be, really?

Having an at will to use as a basic attack is very nice.  Use it on a charge, use it for an attack granted to you, for OA's, and with every broken combo that Orkus Porkus can think of.

But, this all depends on how good the at-wills are.  The Invoker one, by virtue of being ranged, is not really that useful.  The Paladin one translates into a bonus to hit (So, his charge is now a little better, and his OA is better but not fighter level of betterness).

The Cleric gets one of the best ones, so if you get a lucky OA or free granted attack you can give that sweet to hit bonus to a second ally (Warlord gives a free attack to the Cleric, Cleric hits and gives a bonus to the Warlord.  Interesting)

I think the Avenger one is the nicest, it gives him a little defendery control if something tries to sneak past him, or makes his charges a little cooler.

As far as damage output though, these are not really pushing things.  Fun tactics, sure, but I am not that concerned.

Jay


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

This dude takes the two best at-wills, uses them on charge attacks and OA.
His charge attacks are like nothing the game has ever seen, by hitting, then shifting one square, and sliding the enemy 2 squares into his old square, knocking it prone with Polearm Momentum. That's a pretty nice start for a battle.
Or take a barbarian, who can abuse Rampage with those at-wills.
But I'm really most concerned about all the items and powers that grant basic melee attacks, and were not meant to allow them to be turned into at-wills. Just take a look at all those carefully worded powers that grant "melee basic attacks as an opportunity action" and obviously avoiding the term opportunity attack in order to make the well-known abuse with HBO polearm gamble etc impossible. With this feat that has changed. I'm sure we'll see many more worshippers of Corellon in the future. Yes, the parallel to Tempus is obvious.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Wolfskind 14, level 14
Longtooth Shifter, Avenger|Cleric, Relentless Slayer
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Cleric Armor Proficiency

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 22, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 25 Reflex: 24 Will: 27
HP: 90 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +19, Perception +19, Acrobatics +15, Athletics +19

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +9, Heal +13, History +7, Intimidate +6, Nature +13, Religion +7, Stealth +9, Streetwise +6, Thievery +9

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Urgrosh)
Level 2: Power of Skill
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Spear)
Level 6: Gorebrute Charge
Level 8: Battle Awareness
Level 10: Powerful Charge
Level 11: Weapon Focus (Spear)
Level 12: Polearm Momentum
Level 14: Hybrid Talent

POWERS
Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Hybrid Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid encounter 1: Divine Glow
Hybrid daily 1: Aspect of Might
Hybrid utility 2: Refocus Enmity
Hybrid encounter 3: Deadly Stride
Hybrid daily 5: Weapon of the Gods
Hybrid utility 6: Divine Favor
Hybrid encounter 7: Splinter the Formation
Hybrid daily 9: Divine Power
Hybrid utility 10: Avenger's Resolve
Hybrid encounter 13: Crimson Stride (replaces Splinter the Formation)

ITEMS
Magic Braidmail Armor +3, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +3, Horned Helm (heroic tier), Vanguard Urgrosh +3, Cat Paws (heroic tier), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Symbol of Victory +2, Salve of Power (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

Or this guy. He can use Righteous Brand 5 squares away (Farslayer weapon) and gets 4 free uses of Righteous Brand per encounter through various items (usually, depending on whether the trigger happens). He also uses RB on all OA (+5 attack bonus) and Combat Challenge, which is really nice. All other fighters can just make a melee basic attack, this nasty dwarf makes the enemy pay even harder with a +4 bonus and Righteous Brand, to set the fool up for follow up attacks by an ally (+6 attack bonus). Since he needs heavy armor he can't abuse Bestial Armor or Feral Armor, but perhaps he should switch.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 14
Dwarf, Fighter|Cleric, Kensei
Hybrid Talent: Combat Superiority
Kensei Focus: Kensei Focus Execution axe

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 17, Dex 11, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 17 Fort: 28 Reflex: 21 Will: 26
HP: 105 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 29

TRAINED SKILLS


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +12, Heal +11, History +7, Insight +11, Intimidate +6, Nature +11, Perception +11, Religion +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +6, Thievery +7, Athletics +13

FEATS
Level 1: Power of Skill
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Devoted Challenge
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 10: Toughness
Level 11: Dwarven Durability
Level 12: Hero of Faith
Level 14: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Hybrid Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike

ITEMS
Farslayer Execution axe +3, Counterstrike Guards (paragon tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Belt of Lucky Strikes (heroic tier), Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier), Cloak of the Walking Wounded +3, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 19, 2009)

Wait a minute, why are both builds and almost all combinations of yours targeted at Hybrids?  For one thing, I'm not sure what a hybrid really entails.  For another, though, maybe THAT's your problem and not Power of Skill.  Can you put together an example case of brokenness or abuse with Power of Skill that doesn't involve Hybrids?

By the way, how many deities of the skill domain are there? My search brought up only three: Bane, Corellon, and Ioun.

I'll point out that getting an at-wil at the end of a charge isn't really that big of a deal when you're a cleric.  Getting an encounter/daily at the end of a charge--now, that's a big deal.  Even an at-will on an OA isn't too outstanding, though it should be nicer than not having one.  The caveats on that are that it must be melee (so no twin strike) and it must be against the creature who provoked (so bursts, etc. don't apply to anyone else).


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## Flipguarder (Aug 19, 2009)

Hybrid simply allows for the easiest access to at-wills from different classes. But at the end of the day this definitely makes my list of "stuff not allowed in my campaigns" on the pile with dragonmark feats and double weapons.


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## karossii (Aug 19, 2009)

How about a half-elf single classed, not hybrid... can pick up an extra "at-will" from the list as an encounter MBA for heroic, and then at 11th get versatile master to have it as an extra at will MBA. If the character is a hybrid anyway, that gives them a third option for MBA (as an encounter in heroic, at-will in paragon).

Even still, with just a single classed non half-elf, you can have one of four at-will powers as your MBA... this affects OAs, Charge attacks (fey charger builds), and certain weapon powers (far slayer - though this is apparently outshined by the new weapon in AV2 which is farslayer for any melee power, not just MBAs).

I still don't think it is broken... it does require worshipping a specific deity, which in some campaigns may be impossible or hard to account for (depending upon DM), and even in situations where that doesn't have an impact (LFR for example), you aren't going to break the game with just this feat - it will require trying to make a broken build... which if you are attempting, well you'd find a way to do it anyway. You can make a broken build from so many not broken (in general) elements.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm not disallowing it because it breaks the game. But because it is vastly unbalanced to other feats of its kind.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 19, 2009)

karossii said:


> How about a half-elf single classed, not hybrid... can pick up an extra "at-will" from the list as an encounter MBA for heroic, ...



  I lost you there.  I'm guessing MBA doesn't mean "Master of Business Administration."


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## FireLance (Aug 19, 2009)

Infiniti2000 said:


> I lost you there.  I'm guessing MBA doesn't mean "Master of Business Administration."



Melee Basic Attack.


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## FireLance (Aug 19, 2009)

As to the brokenness of the feat itself, the standout is _righteous brand_ (which a number of people already think is a problem). The other at-wills don't pack quite so much of a punch:

_Overwhelming strike_ allows you to shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you vacated.

_Divine bolts_ targets 1 or 2 creatures and deals 1d6 + Wis mod lightning damage (only better than _magic missile_ because it can target two opponents).

_Valiant strike_ grants you a +1 bonus to the attack roll for each adjacent enemy - and the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu usually applies in 4e.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 19, 2009)

The brokenness of it is limited because at-wills by their nature are intended to be not powerful.  So, any claim to brokenness by this feat will be largely attributed to uber at-wills.  Essentially, an at-will is a slightly beefed up MBA or RBA.  If one at-will is far stronger than another then you can't blame this feat as a consequence of the at-will's brokenness.



FireLance said:


> Melee Basic Attack.



  Someone needs to update the ENWorld acronym list, or people need to stick to it!


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

OK the feat might not be broken. But it seems overpowered. Fine with me, I have fun creating these builds.

This fellow is an Eladrin Fey Charger with Greatspear, who also takes fighter daily powers that grant free melee basic attacks throughout the encounter (Hounding Longarm, Piquing Dare), which can all be turned into painful Righteous Strikes with reach. He also uses Righteous Brand for Combat Challenge and Superiority attacks.

Furthermore, he uses Swift Spear (Dragon 378, "Fighter Essentials") which slides enemies 1 square on OA. With Rushing Cleats that's 2, and Polearm Momentum rounds it up by knocking them prone.

As Icing on the Cake, Polearm Gamble, and Gloves of Antipathy so the crawling thugs stay put.

He also qualifies for 3 attacks on Rain of Blows.

Fey Charge for more fun when charging.

Level 16 feat would be Feywild Protection.

Level 15 daily would be Quicksilver Stance.

He probably should take Footwork Lure as the fighter at-will since he can knock the target prone on a hit with the Cleats and Polearm Momentum.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
eladrin power of skill fighter cleric 14, level 14
Eladrin, Fighter|Cleric
Hybrid Talent: Combat Superiority

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11.


AC: 28 Fort: 27 Reflex: 23 Will: 25
HP: 89 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Thievery +16, Athletics +19, Heal +16, Insight +16, Endurance +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +9, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +10, History +9, Intimidate +8, Nature +10, Perception +10, Religion +7, Stealth +10, Streetwise +8

FEATS
Level 1: Power of Skill
Level 2: Eladrin Soldier
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Spear)
Level 6: Swift Spear
Level 8: Hybrid Talent
Level 10: Powerful Charge
Level 11: Polearm Gamble
Level 12: Polearm Momentum
Level 14: Fey Charge

POWERS
Hybrid Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Healing Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Avenging Flame
Hybrid utility 2: Cure Light Wounds
Hybrid encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Hybrid daily 5: Hounding Longarm
Hybrid utility 6: Settling the Score
Hybrid encounter 7: Come and Get It
Hybrid daily 9: Piquing Dare
Hybrid utility 10: Mass Cure Light Wounds
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blows (replaces Healing Strike)

ITEMS
Eladrin Braidmail Armor +3, Vanguard Greatspear +3, Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Horned Helm (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Amulet of Physical Resolve +3, Belt of Lucky Strikes (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Mengu (Aug 19, 2009)

Power of Skill is pretty fantastic, but I'm not convinced it's OP. Overwhelming Strike has the biggest abuse potential with charges and Mark of Passage (and maybe boots of adept charging), but it's just a bit of extra control and mobility, not like it's locking down an enemy or anything. It's better than getting Melee Training for the Avenger, which I see more or less as a feat tax, so this feat actually gives a real benefit.

Yes it's powerful, but at least it's not boring like 90% of the feats I see people picking up out there with superior weapon, focus, expertise, leather armor, etc. Anything that lets me do something other than moar pluses to hit, damage, or defense, is a good feat in my book.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

That's very true. This Eladrin build will increase the fun for everyone, including the DM, in most battles.


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## urzafrank (Aug 19, 2009)

This feat is not even overpowered. It is much less powerful than reapers touch which has not caused one problem in our games and games i have seen. This seems a bit like "chicken little"


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## Garthanos (Aug 19, 2009)

I actively like interesting opportunity attacks and charges... and call reapers touch "Conjurers Blade" its on my favorite flavors list (there is a wing at the Spell Blade college just for sorcerors and wizards and warlocks)

In terms of visualizing more advanced abilities becoming basic attacks
Martial Arts teachers mention all the time that kata and practice in general is about repeating something so you can eventually do them without thought... and is one of the reasons why even with inferior reflexes an older more experienced fighter will respond faster... not even because they know different tricks... but rather because they have integrated them. 

Its fun and at-wills are likely overshadowed by encounter and daily combos anyway so I just like it.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 19, 2009)

urzafrank said:


> This feat is not even overpowered. It is much less powerful than reapers touch which has not caused one problem in our games and games i have seen. This seems a bit like "chicken little"




chicken little, haha. Well I've played D&D long enough to know that the combos I showed are definitely not chicken little. If DPR and novas is all that counts, yes, they might be chicken little.


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## corncob (Aug 19, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> chicken little, haha. Well I've played D&D long enough to know that the combos I showed are definitely not chicken little. If DPR and novas is all that counts, yes, they might be chicken little.



You're missing the forest for the trees.  The problem isn't Power of Skill, it's Righteous Brand.  Allowing players to use it as a MBA is almost superfluous.


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## BobTheNob (Aug 19, 2009)

Keep in mind also that the question is "Is power of skill broker?" not "Is power of skill broken in that I can also get feature X, power Y, PP Z...".

Yes, I think it is powerful if you stack it together with other things in a certain way, but in this it is not unlike one of many features. I put together a polearm warrior/reaper/enternal defender, and when I looked at the potential damage he did combining HBO, Cleave, polearm gamle and agile opportunist against many oppoenents, I laughed out loud. That required a unique combination of parts, none of which we individually broken, but collectively produced some spectacular results.

So if Power of skill a good(powerful) ability? Yes (in fact, I would put it best domain power).

Is Power of skill broken? No. Does it enable devestating combinations with synergised with other abilities? Yes.

... but that just puts it in the same realm as many other game features.


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## Turtlejay (Aug 20, 2009)

BobTheNob said:


> Keep in mind also that the question is "Is power of skill broker?" not "Is power of skill broken in that I can also get feature X, power Y, PP Z...".
> 
> Yes, I think it is powerful if you stack it together with other things in a certain way, but in this it is not unlike one of many features. I put together a polearm warrior/reaper/enternal defender, and when I looked at the potential damage he did combining HBO, Cleave, polearm gamle and agile opportunist against many oppoenents, I laughed out loud. That required a unique combination of parts, none of which we individually broken, but collectively produced some spectacular results.
> 
> ...




I agree with you 100%.  This is how I feel about most of the things touted as broken (or even the reverse, underpowered).  I am afraid to post it, though, because the logical counterattack is that the game does not exist in a vacuum, and all of the parts have to be considered when you evaluate something.

I don't agree, and I think that the charop and powergaming side of things grossly exaggerates the powerful elements of the game.  Yes, I understand that in a situation like LFR folks can and do bring hideous game breaking builds because the social contract is not there.

In most cases, though, I think stuff like this just doesn't happen.  It is not like you can win d&d.  If you manage to break it, then you just lost, in my opinion.

Jay


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## Jhaelen (Aug 20, 2009)

Well, imho, while it may not be overpowered it is clearly out of line when compared with the other Domain Feats. That alone ie reason enough to consider modifying or not allowing it in a game. The alternative would be upgrading every other domain feat...


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## BobTheNob (Aug 20, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, imho, while it may not be overpowered it is clearly out of line when compared with the other Domain Feats. That alone ie reason enough to consider modifying or not allowing it in a game. The alternative would be upgrading every other domain feat...



I think its very interesting for the possibilities it creates. If someone wanted to argue that Righteous Brand was OP, you wouldn't get an argument from me, and when you combine it with this, yes, it would be deadly.

But I can also see interesting use of it. The avenger power would be a fascinating ability because of its ability to allow movement outside of your turn. I think thats powerful, but first and foremost...I think its cool.

My own personnel assessment would be that this is powerful, but its one of those wonderful little tidbits that allows players to create interesting an unique combinations. Its a power that is only powerful IF it synergises. Its a catalyst feat.

How many "You get +X to value Y" feat can you accumulated before you are beggining to yawn? But this...this is the chilli in the con-carn, the salt with the tequila, the anchovies on your pizza. That thing that takes the ordinary and gives it some spice.

Its powerful, but Im a fan


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## Garthanos (Aug 20, 2009)

BobTheNob said:


> I think its very interesting for the possibilities it creates. If someone wanted to argue that Righteous Brand was OP, you wouldn't get an argument from me, and when you combine it with this, yes, it would be deadly.
> 
> But I can also see interesting use of it. The avenger power would be a fascinating ability because of its ability to allow movement outside of your turn. I think thats powerful, but first and foremost...I think its cool.
> 
> ...




Me three 
Many of the domains don't seem that interesting... lets hunt through and gimp the couple that are.. sure sounds fun.  NOT.

This shores up hybridizing too. Hybridizing is kind of limited unless there are indeed extra synergies like this and the Arena feats.?


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## jontherev (Aug 20, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, imho, while it may not be overpowered it is clearly out of line when compared with the other Domain Feats. That alone ie reason enough to consider modifying or not allowing it in a game. The alternative would be upgrading every other domain feat...




So, instead of having one cool domain power, your campaign will have none?  I think most of the domain powers and feats are rather lackluster and not worth taking.  So, having a pretty decent power that IS worth taking, but is also not overly powerful, makes the game more interesting imo.  Just because the power is clearly better than other domains, it is not a good enough reason to ban it, but of course to each his/her own.  With this logic, you should also be banning other feats that are clearly more powerful than others, like Weapon Focus/Mastery (+1 to hit/damage is obviously more way more powerful than say, a +4 to initiative).  I'm playing an avenger, and so, instead of the old MUST-have feat of Melee Training (boring!), I now get this feat, which is super fun.  Just my $.02.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 20, 2009)

jontherev said:


> Just because the power is clearly better than other domains, it is not a good enough reason to ban it, but of course to each his/her own.  With this logic, you should also be banning other feats that are clearly more powerful than others, like Weapon Focus/Mastery (+1 to hit/damage is obviously more way more powerful than say, a +4 to initiative).  I'm playing an avenger, and so, instead of the old MUST-have feat of Melee Training (boring!), I now get this feat, which is super fun.  Just my $.02.




Wow this is just bad logic. Weapon focus and mastery belong in a separate type of feat. The only thing that connects them is the fact that they are feats. The reasoning to ban one of a type because its more powerful than any other of the same type is solid.

If fighters were FAR and away the best defender. And no fighter could hold a candle to their ability, yes, I would ban the fighter. if a sword was just better than all other options, then yes I would ban it.

Also it is fair to say there may be situations in which this is untrue. If I think everything else in the category is underpowered, I might just buff everything else. But in this situation personally I would just change this feat to make it less powerful to bring it to par with all the others.


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## Garthanos (Aug 20, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> Wow this is just bad logic. Weapon focus and mastery belong in a separate type of feat. The only thing that connects them is the fact that they are feats.




As long as feats come out of the same basket for most people there is only one type of feat.... that said obviously somebody picking linguistics is targetting a different activity than weapon focus... but battle feats are pretty much battle feats to me... I do think that many of the other are lackluster.... so I guess that puts me in the group saying lets enhance them.


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## Mistwell (Aug 20, 2009)

The hybrid rules are in beta testing, they are not the official rules right now.  Personally, I cannot judge anything as overpowered if it depends on using a beta testing rule.

So, that leaves something like half-elf, or full multiclassing, which drastically cuts back on the potentials you're listing.

Build it without the hybrid rule, and then we can judge it.


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## Garthanos (Aug 20, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> Build it without the hybrid rule, and then we can judge it.




Hybrid is giving more than one of these at-wills as basic attacks (similar to the Sorceror getting his two at-wills out of one feat either reapers touch or the dagger one).  So unless its the combination of two contributing to one another then I would say hybrid cant be singled out as a culprit.


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## Garthanos (Aug 20, 2009)

Note my idea isnt actually to stodge through them to find and remove the shiney ones .
My idea is to always allow a cleric 1 of the other ones free. Giving is better than taking.
If you can define too effective feats compared to other domains.. make those normal feats.. change the name to protect the innocent...
like calling this one.
Instinctual Miracle Worker
and coming up with a replacement balanced more similar to the others.


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## Mirtek (Aug 21, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> I guess what I hate, is that like Righteous Rage of Tempus, it will encourage God choice for stupid reasons.  How many worshippers of Tempus can there be, really?




Funny thing is that he is also a very likely candidate to get the skill domain


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## Samir (Aug 21, 2009)

> With Quicksilver Stance you get those attacks as a move action replacement.



Quicksilver Stance is extremely powerful as is, the at-wills are just gravy.



> Feral Armor grants you a burst 1 encounter power, all attacks with one of those at-wills.



I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. The claw attack "counts as a melee basic attack," but that doesn't mean it can be replaced with Power of Skill at-will anymore than you can replace Virtuous Strike with a Power of Skill at-will. The encounter power says specifically "using the claw attack granted by this armor," so that doesn't help, either.



> This one combined with a reach weapon grants you reach 3 with those powerful at-wills.



The only at-will of those four that's really particularly powerful is Righteous Brand, but beyond that I'm not even sure this is a problem. They're at-wills.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Hybrid is giving more than one of these at-wills as basic attacks (similar to the Sorceror getting his two at-wills out of one feat either reapers touch or the dagger one).  So unless its the combination of two contributing to one another then I would say hybrid cant be singled out as a culprit.





I'd just like to let you know that you are quoting someone else and attributing it to me.


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## Garthanos (Aug 21, 2009)

Flipguarder said:


> I'd just like to let you know that you are quoting someone else and attributing it to me.



Arrrrrggggghhhhh oouuuucccch
I apologize.
how in heck did that happen? must have been a failed clipboard cut.


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## Flipguarder (Aug 21, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> how in heck did that happen...



The God of forums simply loves me and attributes all knowledge to me. That's the working theory anyway.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 21, 2009)

OK, here we go, a build that's not Hybrid.

He hopes to get more crits with Jagged, because combined with Reckless attacker he can get more free Righteous Brand attacks.

Dancing Defense is a stance from Fighter Essentials (Dragon 378) that grants more basic attacks.

Regarding Feral Armor: I think you have a point. The encounter power specifies the claw attacks as is.

I'm not insisting anymore that the feat is broken or anything. I just want to show that you can nicely exploit power and items that grant free basic attacks to create nasty surprises for monsters.

I also think that Righteous Brand doesn't fee broken and annoying to the other players (like some damage uberbuilds, bloodclaw etc do), simply because the attack bonus benefits an ally.

So Power of Skill improves teamplay really, in most cases.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Half Elf Power of Skill 14, level 14
Half-Elf, Fighter, Adroit Explorer
Build: Tempest Fighter
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Ambitious Effort: Ambitious Effort Existing Power
Ambitious Effort Existing Power: Rain of Blows

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 30 Fort: 28 Reflex: 24 Will: 22
HP: 106 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +18, Heal +15, Endurance +13, Acrobatics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +9, History +6, Insight +11, Intimidate +8, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +6, Stealth +9, Streetwise +8, Thievery +9

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 4: Weapon Proficiency (Double sword)
Level 6: Action Surge
Level 8: Blade Opportunist
Level 10: Nimble Blade (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 11: Hero of Faith
Level 12: Power of Skill
Level 14: Agile Tempest

POWERS
Dilettante: Righteous Brand
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Pass Forward
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Dancing Defense (Stance)
Fighter utility 6: Settling the Score
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 10: Defensive Resurgence
Fighter encounter 13: Storm of Blows (replaces Funneling Flurry)

ITEMS
Jagged Double sword +3, Torc of Power Preservation +3, Agile Braidmail Armor +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Garthanos (Aug 21, 2009)

I have rather disliked the genericness of the divine classes so what I have seen so far is the feats for domains....being unintersting was a noteworthy disappointment.

I wish I could just let every divine class have a feat associated with there deities domain... or allow them to channel the divine twice per day ...  since those seem to have some flavor I just dont have a good solution.


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## Orcus Porkus (Aug 21, 2009)

Hmm I was just thinking, if a Half-Elf is getting Righteous Brand as his Dilettante, he doesn't even need Versatile Master to convert MBA's into Righteous Brand with Power of Skill. 
"You can use any power you have that is associated with this feat as a basic attack."


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## AbdulAlhazred (Aug 21, 2009)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Hmm I was just thinking, if a Half-Elf is getting Righteous Brand as his Dilettante, he doesn't even need Versatile Master to convert MBA's into Righteous Brand with Power of Skill.
> "You can use any power you have that is associated with this feat as a basic attack."




Now you're getting into a *very* messy set of arguments about exactly when is an at-will really at-will and what happens if you trigger an at-will that you have encounter access to. 

My answer is you wouldn't expect an actual encounter power to be reusable just because another power or a feat triggered it would you? So why would you expect RB to be reusable in this situation? Just because it qualifies as an MBA doesn't make it stop being a use of a specific power, and Dilettante is still the way you GOT the power, so you have to abide by that.

So yeah, you need Versatile Master. Notice, Versatile Master itself is probably the single most broken feat in the game. In fact IMHO there's no probably about it. Without that you'd have to PMC to cleric in order to get RB at-will and that would definitely put a bit of a crimp in your build!


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## karossii (Aug 21, 2009)

There are plenty of encounter or daily powers that have a special line indicating they can be used as a MBA - sometimes with provisions like only on a charge, or only with swordmage aegis attacks, etc. This in no way implies you can use them more often than otherwise... it simply allows you to, once per encounter (or day), replace a MBA with said power.


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