# XBox 360 Elite



## Felon (Apr 5, 2007)

Later this month the XBox 360 Elite will be released. I am seriously considering getting one, although for whatever reason preorders aren't being offered at most online stores. Not at Fry's, Amazon, BestBuy, Target, or Gamestop anyway. EBay vendors are selling them for close to $200 over the MSRP, and Circuity City charges sales tax, so I guess I'll have to sit tight for a while.

Anyone getting one?


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## John Crichton (Apr 5, 2007)

Nope.  Already have a 360.  Don't need the HDMI or the extra hard drive space.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 5, 2007)

What is the difference between the standard and the Elite?


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## drothgery (Apr 5, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> What is the difference between the standard and the Elite?




The Elite's black, has a 120 GB hard drive instead of a 20 GB hard drive, and has an HDMI output.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 5, 2007)

Nope. No value to me.


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## GlassJaw (Apr 5, 2007)

People are quick to discount the Elite's "value" right now but MS is releasing for the future, not the present.  There is going to be a LOT of new content on Live in the near future, especially considering the deal MS now has with Netflix among others.  An HDMI connector is a pretty big deal too.

I don't have a 360 yet but I'll definitely get the Elite when I do.


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## drothgery (Apr 5, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> People are quick to discount the Elite's "value" right now but MS is releasing for the future, not the present.




At $480, I don't think it's a great value (though if you need the bigger hard drive, it's a much better deal than adding it later). But I'm not going to buy a new console until 
1) I get an HDTV and
2) The first round of price cuts happens

And I'm certainly not spending $650 on three consoles this time, since my 'Cube basically spent three years sitting idle, and Sony made the first PS2 cuts only a few months after I got mine. But I expect that I will get a 360 at some point, and depending on pricing after the initial price cuts, the Elite's definitely under consideration.


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## trancejeremy (Apr 5, 2007)

Well, considering the 120 gig hard drive costs what, $180 sold separately, the Elite starts to look like a good valuel.

Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it.  MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.


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## freebfrost (Apr 5, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> People are quick to discount the Elite's "value" right now but MS is releasing for the future, not the present.  There is going to be a LOT of new content on Live in the near future, especially considering the deal MS now has with Netflix among others.  An HDMI connector is a pretty big deal too.



A few caveats though - you can easily hook up your 360 and your PC and store your larger files (i.e. those videos) on your PC.  And HDMI is only valuable if you've got a true 1080p HDTV and are willing to shell out another $100 for a 3' long cable!    

As it is, the 360 still has yet to reach beyond the "hardcore gamer" audience, unlike the WII.  So while adding theses features is nice, since most of the users are tech-saavy enough to get around them, it's not likely to be an earth-shaking seller.  Rather, it is placed to replace the  "premium" 360 and eliminate the "core" 360 version altogether.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 5, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it.  MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.




Well I like the Elite's extras because it's _still_ cheaper than the cheap version of the PS3.

I have my own reasons for disliking Sony.  Offering up a $600 console is just icing on the cake.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 5, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Rather, it is placed to replace the  "premium" 360 and eliminate the "core" 360 version altogether.




Not true.  Core and Premium are sticking around.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160875


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## drothgery (Apr 5, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Not true.  Core and Premium are sticking around.




If they do drop the Core, they wouldn't do it (or announce that they were doing it) until cutting the price on the Premium, because they know they need a sub-$300 version out there. I can't see MS sticking with these three SKUs indefinitely, though. With a $180 price difference between Core and Elite, it's supportable. With a $100 price gap, it's not (and with no feature changes, they'll become closer in price with each round of price cuts).

I can see a few different scenarios
1 - Core is dropped with the first big price cuts; Premium is $300; Elite is $360.
2 - Core is slightly upgraded (add a 512 MB flash memory unit to the box), and the premium is dropped; Core+ is $250; Elite is $400.
3 - Core is dropped, 'super-Elite' SKU (Elite with integrated HD-DVD and Wi-Fi) added after HD-DVD drives that do 12x DVD playback become available in 2008; Premium is $300; Elite is $360; Super-Elite is $450.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 5, 2007)

> People are quick to discount the Elite's "value" right now but MS is releasing for the future, not the present.  There is going to be a LOT of new content on Live in the near future, especially considering the deal MS now has with Netflix among others.



Believe me, if there's anyone forward looking, it's me. And since I have little interest in Live, the Elite does indeed hold little value for me.



			
				Glassjaw said:
			
		

> An HDMI connector is a pretty big deal too.



Maybe... though while a recent update finally allowed the 360 to actually do 1080p, there probably won't be any games that'll use it... Does anyone know if that USB HD-DVD add-on allows for 1080p?



			
				trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it. MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.



_Exactly so_. Ragging on Sony while lauding MS _because of price_ is more than a little disingenuous. A simple economic analysis very clearly shows that either 1) if you're interested in online _or_ 2) feature-for-feature, the cost of owning a 360 is much higher than the PS3 over the system's expected life. Considering MS, this is not unexpected.

There are a lot of reasons to hate Sony, but the price of the PS3 ain't it. (Not saying anyone in this thread is doing so...)


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## Vocenoctum (Apr 5, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, considering the 120 gig hard drive costs what, $180 sold separately, the Elite starts to look like a good valuel.
> 
> Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it.  MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.




I dunno, aside from the more rabid fans, I haven't seen any MS love based on this new model. It's just another option. A lot of the PS3 hate has to do with paying for stuff people don't want, vs getting more options from MS as to what you actually want. The Elite was obviously brought out to compete more directly with the PS3, and is still cheaper.


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## TwistedBishop (Apr 6, 2007)

I certainly won't be getting an Elite.  The HDMI port would be nice to upscale my standard def DVDs, but it's not needed for games.  And already I barely use my HDD for anything except saves and demos.


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## Lazybones (Apr 6, 2007)

I'll get an elite if and when my current 360 craps out. I know that unfortunate accident can happen pretty much at any time, but I'm certaintly not going to root for it.   

I am actually more interested in the die shrink and rumors of quieter DVD drives coming down the pipeline than in the bigger HD and HDMI. I can probably fill the larger HD (can't we all) but right now streaming media from my server PC with its 410 GB of drives is a much better solution. I occasionally have to delete old demos to make room for new stuff but that's not that big a deal.


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## GlassJaw (Apr 6, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> And HDMI is only valuable if you've got a true 1080p HDTV and are willing to shell out another $100 for a 3' long cable!




It comes with an HDMI cable, which is part of the reason why the Elite is a good deal.


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## John Crichton (Apr 6, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> It comes with an HDMI cable, which is part of the reason why the Elite is a good deal.



 I don't trust one bit that the cable is of any decent quality.  The component cables boxed with the Pro were terrible.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 6, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I don't trust one bit that the cable is of any decent quality.  The component cables boxed with the Pro were terrible.




Expensive HDMI cables are a scam.  The thing with digital signals is its either a good signal, or its no signal - the only difference might be in durability, but 99% of the time, you'll plug it in once and that's it.  You can get HDMI cables for under $10 online, and for under $30 at Target (which is where I got mine), and they will look just as good.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 6, 2007)

So as someone seriously considering a 360, what model should I consider?  A few things:

1.  I don't own an HDTV
2.  Not sure I care about XBox Live (though I really like XBLA)
3.  Do I really need 120G of hard drive space for games?

A lot of the games I'm liking are (to the best of my knowledge) primarily single-player:  Oblivion, Mass Effect, GTA IV, and so forth.  A friend claims that XBL "makes the system."  Is XBL still worth it even if I'm not engaging a lot in the multiplayer?  What's the price for an account?


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## freebfrost (Apr 6, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Not true.  Core and Premium are sticking around.



I'll subscribe to this thread and check back in a year - I'm betting that there will no longer be a Core then. 

If I'm wrong, I'll owe you a Coke!


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## John Crichton (Apr 6, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Expensive HDMI cables are a scam.



This I agree with.



			
				Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> The thing with digital signals is its either a good signal, or its no signal - the only difference might be in durability, but 99% of the time, you'll plug it in once and that's it.  You can get HDMI cables for under $10 online, and for under $30 at Target (which is where I got mine), and they will look just as good.



Not all of them are the same.  I got one with my DirecTV Tivo and the quality was not so good.  So I blew $30 on a 6 ft Phillips cable from Walmart and it was fine.  I expect to have to replace any cables that come packed in with a system is the bottom line.

But yeah, the expensive ones like the $100 Monster Cables (as you said) are a scam for HDMI.  Doesn't change the fact that the one in the Elite box will most likely stink if you have a good TV, which you should if it has HDMI inputs.


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## John Crichton (Apr 6, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> So as someone seriously considering a 360, what model should I consider?  A few things:
> 
> 1.  I don't own an HDTV



Get the Pro ($400).



			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> 2.  Not sure I care about XBox Live (though I really like XBLA)



Those games are tiny and unless you buy every single one plus a movies/trailer/TV shows and never delete anything you'll have plenty of space on the 20GB HD.



			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> 3.  Do I really need 120G of hard drive space for games?



No way.  Plus, you can always upgrade the HD years down the line when prices drop.



			
				GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> A lot of the games I'm liking are (to the best of my knowledge) primarily single-player:  Oblivion, Mass Effect, GTA IV, and so forth.  A friend claims that XBL "makes the system."  Is XBL still worth it even if I'm not engaging a lot in the multiplayer?  What's the price for an account?



I pay for XBL but I don't use it a ton.  I think it's like $60 a year.  You can get a 2 week trial, I think...

XBL is not for everyone, especially folks who don't care about online play.


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## TwistedBishop (Apr 6, 2007)

Live Gold is $50 a year.  That's strictly to play multiplayer.  It sounds like you'd be more interested in demos and such, and all that's free using Live Silver.

Don't get the Elite unless you plan to buy an HDTV soon or you just have to have it in black.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 6, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> A few caveats though - you can easily hook up your 360 and your PC and store your larger files (i.e. those videos) on your PC.  And HDMI is only valuable if you've got a true 1080p HDTV and are willing to shell out another $100 for a 3' long cable!





On a side note.  You can guy 6' HDMI cables online for 19.99.  The level of rip off in major store bought HDMI and DVI cables is mindboggling.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> A few caveats though - you can easily hook up your 360 and your PC and store your larger files (i.e. those videos) on your PC.



How does that work? Does the PC see the Xbox as a removable hard drive?


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## John Crichton (Apr 6, 2007)

It's not possible without a hack.  Otherwise, there would be little use for a bigger HD.  MS would never make it that easy.


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## Felon (Apr 6, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> _Exactly so_. Ragging on Sony while lauding MS _because of price_ is more than a little disingenuous. A simple economic analysis very clearly shows that either 1) if you're interested in online _or_ 2) feature-for-feature, the cost of owning a 360 is much higher than the PS3 over the system's expected life.



By all means, please provide said simple, clear-cut economic analysis.


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## TwistedBishop (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm a big fan of Xbox, but it is true that if you want to add on a bunch of stuff (next gen optical drives, wifi, and multiplayer) the $600 PS3 does come out to be cheaper.


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm definitely getting one when I get a 360. That will probably be next month. I don't have an HDTV yet, but I will, so I want to be ready for it.


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## Pyrex (Apr 8, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> And HDMI is only valuable if you've got a true 1080p HDTV and are willing to shell out another $100 for a 3' long cable!




HDMI cables only cost $100 when they say "Monster Cable" on them.  There are plenty of $10 HDMI cables out there...


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## John Crichton (Apr 8, 2007)

Right, but those cables stink.  They would be the same quality of the one that will certainly be packed with the Elite.  Gotta spring for a bit more than that if you are hooking up to a good HDTV.  I'd say at least $25 will get the job done for an HDMI cable hooked up to a TV under 40".

That said, there are _some_ cables from Monster that certainly increase sound/picture quality with the right equipment.


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## Vigilance (Apr 8, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> A lot of the games I'm liking are (to the best of my knowledge) primarily single-player:  Oblivion, Mass Effect, GTA IV, and so forth.  A friend claims that XBL "makes the system."  Is XBL still worth it even if I'm not engaging a lot in the multiplayer?  What's the price for an account?




If you dont want to play multiplayer games, XBL is free. That's the XBL Silver account. You can download content, like game updates, or XBL games, like Frogger or whatever, you just can't play with others without going to XBL Gold.


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## Vigilance (Apr 8, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, considering the 120 gig hard drive costs what, $180 sold separately, the Elite starts to look like a good valuel.
> 
> Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it.  MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.




I think the Sony hate goes way deeper than just the price, for me anyway.

I believe the statement by a Sony rep that "people will pay 500 dollars for this console even if we don't make games for it" and "If Steve Jobs slapped an Apple logo on the PS3 he could sell it for 2,000 dollars" and "leaders don't react" had a lot more to do with that.

And of course, there's plenty of reasons to hate the company behind the rootkit that have nothing to do with the PS3 too. 

I mean, I really don't care for MS, but Sony makes them look GOOD. 

So I think it's more a case of Sony being the worst of two evils than anyone loving MS 

Still, as someone who's thinking about getting in the door with a Core 360, the options make it much more likely that the 360 will be my "next gen" console of choice when I decide to expand beyond the Wii and the DS (now Nintendo is a company I can actually LIKE). 

And it might just be the even more awesome 360 Marvel Ultimate Alliance that gets me to do it too. Damn you and your downloadable characters!!!!!!!!

Chuck


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## freebfrost (Apr 8, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> How does that work? Does the PC see the Xbox as a removable hard drive?



It recognizes it as a connected Xbox 360 actually.  Kinda cool.


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## freebfrost (Apr 8, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Right, but those cables stink.  They would be the same quality of the one that will certainly be packed with the Elite.  Gotta spring for a bit more than that if you are hooking up to a good HDTV.  I'd say at least $25 will get the job done for an HDMI cable hooked up to a TV under 40".



Yup, I tried one of the cheap ones with my PS3 and my Aquos - it did stink.  Once I grudgingly paid for an expensive one, I was pleased by the result.  

YMMV.


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## John Crichton (Apr 8, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Yup, I tried one of the cheap ones with my PS3 and my Aquos - it did stink.  Once I grudgingly paid for an expensive one, I was pleased by the result.
> 
> YMMV.



 Yeah, my TV is only 32" and the boxed cables never look good enough.

I actually did buy a Monster HDMI cable (I think I got it for $80) and it runs from my HDMI splitter to the TV.  At the moment, my TV only has one HDMI input but I have 2 (actually 3 if you count the DVD upconverter collecting dust) devices that look so much better using that input method.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 9, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> By all means, please provide said simple, clear-cut economic analysis.



Sure, if I get a chance while at work today and I'm bored of posting in other threads.

But, really man, c'mon... all you have to do is get your annual cash outflows for each option, apply a reasonable discount rate (most appropriately a savings interest rate you're able to get at your local bank), present worth them, and then compare. Any spreadsheet can do that, for pete's sake.


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## Felon (Apr 12, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> But, really man, c'mon... all you have to do is get your annual cash outflows for each option, apply a reasonable discount rate (most appropriately a savings interest rate you're able to get at your local bank), present worth them, and then compare. Any spreadsheet can do that, for pete's sake.



I don't currently have a cash outflow for each option. This will be my first console since the original Playstation.


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## John Crichton (Apr 12, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> This will be my first console since the original Playstation.



 Not a bad call if you are looking for the console with the best selection of "next-gen" games right now.    I'm quite pleased with my 360.  I just wish it wasn't as loud as a harrier taking off...

May I be so bold as to suggest buying Crackdown, Dead Rising, Marvel: Ultimate Alliance and Oblivion with it?


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## Felon (Apr 12, 2007)

Oh, suggest away by all means! 

Still hoping Mass Effect is just around the corner. That was my major impetus.

What's the word on Jade Empire? Up to the hype?


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## John Crichton (Apr 12, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Still hoping Mass Effect is just around the corner. That was my major impetus.



Yeah, that's my next 360 purchase.  May is the rumor but it's Bioware so expect to add at least 4-6 months to that.  I say late 2007.    Although, they can take their sweet time if they want to make it better.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> What's the word on Jade Empire? Up to the hype?



I played it for about 5 hours and it wasn't bad but not as good as KotOR.  Then again, I am a huge Star Wars fan.  I recall it playing pretty well on the 360, too.

But the 4 I suggested already are the best things out there unless you are a FPS fan.  Then there are more options.


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## jonathan swift (Apr 12, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Sure, if I get a chance while at work today and I'm bored of posting in other threads.
> 
> But, really man, c'mon... all you have to do is get your annual cash outflows for each option, apply a reasonable discount rate (most appropriately a savings interest rate you're able to get at your local bank), present worth them, and then compare. Any spreadsheet can do that, for pete's sake.




Using a savings interest rate from a bank for the discount rate? Ouch. I'd go with a 10% mutual fund.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 12, 2007)

jonathan swift said:
			
		

> Using a savings interest rate from a bank for the discount rate? Ouch. I'd go with a 10% mutual fund.



 I like you already. I suggested one's local bank savings interest rate simply because it's readily accessible/available to the general population, who may not have a wide number of financial instruments to choose from.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> I don't currently have a cash outflow for each option. This will be my first console since the original Playstation.



The options I was referring to was simply 360 vs. PS3 in terms of price. But here's the quick and dirty analysis that you asked for earlier:

I'll do the easier one, my #2, feature for feature, first:



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> 2) feature-for-feature



This one's easy. 
Price of 360 + HD-DVD drive + online gaming for 1 year = 400+200+50 = $650
Price of comparable PS3 = $500

I'm not even going to waste my time discounting future cash flows (annual Live price). The PS3 is cheaper right from the get-go.

If I get a little more detailed:
Price of Elite + HD-DVD + online gaming for 1 year = 480+200+50 = *$730* (Edit: Not $650! Whoops!)
Price of PS3 + 120 GB HD (from Newegg) = 500+53 = $553

The results are still clear on the feature-for-feature front.



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> 1) if you're interested in online



Now for the slightly more complicated costing.

Option 1: 360
Year 1 cash flow: 360 + online gaming = 400+50 = 450
Year 2-5 cash flows: online gaming = $50 per year for 4 years

Option 2: PS3
Year 1 cash flow: PS3 = $500
No future cash flows (online is free).

Discount rate: 3.5%

Option 1 present value = -$450-$184 = -$633 
Option 2 present value = -$500

The PS3, yet again, is the cheaper option.

Sensivity analysis:
Using a discount rate of 10%, Option 1 = -$608



Disclaimer:
Now, if one is just interested in simple gaming, with no online, no movies, no nothing, then the 360 is by far cheaper ($400 compared to the PS3's $500). One might also try to argue that Live is a better experience and thus worth the $50 per year to be allowed to game online (something you can do for free on the PC and PS3), but this is certainly debatable. Most PS3 games go online already, and the experience is more than adequate (e.g. R:FoM, with 40 players and virtually no lag, could reasonably be considered a superior experience) even before the PS3's online announcement. But neither of those is what I'm talking about - I had just pointed out that saying the PS3 is overpriced while not mentioning anything about MS's Xbox 360 (especially those rare nitwits screaming at the same time: PS3 is overpriced! Live is teh awsum!) is disingenuous, bordering on dishonest.


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## Atavar (Apr 12, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Price of Elite + HD-DVD + online gaming for 1 year = 480+200+50 = $650




Hmmm....



Atavar


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## TwistedBishop (Apr 12, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Now, if one is just interested in simple gaming, with no online, no movies, no nothing, then the 360 is by far cheaper ($400 compared to the PS3's $500).





Just a note:  The $500 20GB PS3 has been discontinued by Sony.  You can still find it in a lot of stores, but when those are gone, it's gone.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 12, 2007)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Just a note:  The $500 20GB PS3 has been discontinued by Sony.  You can still find it in a lot of stores, but when those are gone, it's gone.



 I know... I just read it on IGN shortly after posting all that. The 60 GB model sure turned out to be popular.



			
				Atavar said:
			
		

> Hmmm....



Whoops! Thanks, Atavar.


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## TwistedBishop (Apr 12, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I know... I just read it on IGN shortly after posting all that. The 60 GB model sure turned out to be popular.




Popular may be a relative term in this case.  It makes sense that early adopters are going to be the demographic that wants the premium model, and by reports Sony shipped only a fraction of the 20GB compared to the 60GB.  The whole thing ends up feeling like a marketing tactic to ease sticker shock, less than something Sony intended to follow through on.


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## IcyCool (Apr 12, 2007)

I would like to point out, if anyone cares, that the PS3 is a beautiful piece of hardware.  Not only does it have power in spades (power that would cost you a freaking fortune if you were to try and build a similar power-level computer), seeing and hearing it run is amazing.  The PS3 is whisper silent, and the 360 sounds like a jet engine by comparison.  If (and that's a big if) they get developers creating games that leverage the full power of the PS3, it will blow away the 360 simply because it is a better piece of hardware.  But the comments by developers about how difficult the PS3 is supposed to be to develop for make me more than a little worried about that.

Of course, it shouldn't really be the console itself that sells you on a system, it should be the games.  And there aren't a whole lot of great choices for the PS3 still.  I'll be buying mine when FF13 comes out, but that's because I'm a hopeless FF fanboy.

And my final disclaimer, I currently own a 360, but that's only because I apparently have the world's coolest friends, and they bought me one (Gears of War and Rainbow Six have been a blast so far, and playing on Xbox Live has been a hoot).


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## Vocenoctum (Apr 12, 2007)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Of course, it shouldn't really be the console itself that sells you on a system, it should be the games.  And there aren't a whole lot of great choices for the PS3 still.  I'll be buying mine when FF13 comes out, but that's because I'm a hopeless FF fanboy.



Most of the comments I see about the PS3 and games, the developers say they want to hold out for more install base. It's sort of a catchall right now I think, systems are slow due to lack of games, but games won't come out until system sales pick up.

As I said before the PS3 launch, I think the PS2 is more what the PS3 is competing with right now than the 360. There are less exclusives nowadays, but there's still a difference in the style of games.



> And my final disclaimer, I currently own a 360, but that's only because I apparently have the world's coolest friends, and they bought me one (Gears of War and Rainbow Six have been a blast so far, and playing on Xbox Live has been a hoot).



I liked Gears, haven't done Rainbow Six. I love the demo's for 360, but I don't really play all that many games on a console, so I can't justify more than one at any rate.


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## drothgery (Apr 13, 2007)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> I would like to point out, if anyone cares, that the PS3 is a beautiful piece of hardware.  Not only does it have power in spades (power that would cost you a freaking fortune if you were to try and build a similar power-level computer)...




Sigh. The PS3 is not significantly more powerful than the 360. It's got a Blu-Ray player and integrated WiFi, which may be nice. But when it comes to the core elements that affect gameplay -- CPU, GPU, and memory, the two systems are either too close to call or the 360 is better.

CPU - the 360's Xenon CPU has 3 full-function in-order PowerPC cores; the PS3's Cell CPU 1 has 1 full-function in-order PowerPC core and 7 specialized helper cores. It's probably worth noting that the Cell's main core and all three of the Xenon's core are almost identical -- they're products of the same CPU design group at IBM, and manufactured at the same plant. While the Cell's design has more theoretical power in a lot of ways, the things that it's really good at are usually offloaded to graphics cards because they're even better at them. And asymetric multiprocessing (i.e. with two or more completely different CPUs) is a lot harder to program for than symetric multiprocessing (i.e. with two or more identical CPUs). If you want to give a theoretical top-end edge to the PS3 here, it's not a big one.

GPU - The PS3's RSX GPU is essentially very lightly modified GeForce 7800GTX. The 360's Xenos GPU is a halfway house between a Radeon 1900 and a (forthcoming) Radion 2900, with some special features for consoles. Here, most analysts give the 360 a slight edge.

Memory - The PS3 has 256 MB of main memory, and 256 MB of video memory. The 360 has 512 MB of shared memory. Very nearly a wash, but the shared architecture gives the 360 a bit more flexibility, which is somewhat useful.

So as gaming machines, they're pretty much equivalent.


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## Felon (Apr 13, 2007)

Ah, what a great thread you guys are making! Well-done.


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## IcyCool (Apr 13, 2007)

I've just been going off of the specs below, perhaps you have better or more correct information than I have.  At any rate, I'm curious as to how successful the 360 Elite will be.  Hopefully, it will continue to be successful, and hopefully the PS3 will also be successful.  Competition makes for better products, so I'm hoping none of these companies falls by the wayside.

[sblock=PS3 Specs]
CPU
Cell Processor
PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
1 VMX vector unit per core
512KB L2 cache
7 x SPE @3.2GHz
7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
* 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
total floating point performance: 218 GFLOPS

GPU
RSX @550MHz
1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance
Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
Multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines

Sound
Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell- base processing)
Memory
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz 256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz

System Bandwidth
Main RAM 25.6GB/s
VRAM 22.4GB/s
RSX 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB< 2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)

System Floating Point Performance
2 TFLOPS

Storage
Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1

I/O
USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0)
Memory Stick standard/Duo, PRO x 1
SD standard/mini x 1
CompactFlash (Type I, II) x 1

Communication
Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g
Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)

Controller
Bluetooth (up to 7)
USB 2.0 (wired)
Wi-Fi (PSP)
Network (over IP)

AV Output
Screen size: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
HDMI: HDMI out x 2
Analog: AV MULTI OUT x 1
Digital audio: DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) x 1

Disc Media
CD PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD, SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD, DualDisc, DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side)
DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW
Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE
[/sblock]

[sblock=Xbox 360 Specs]
Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU	

    * Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
    * Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total
    * VMX-128 vector unit per core; three total
    * 128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
    * 1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance	

    * 9.6 billion dot product operations per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor	

    * 10 MB of embedded DRAM
    * 48-way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines
    * Unified shader architecture

Polygon Performance	

    * 500 million triangles per second

Pixel Fill Rate	

    * 16 gigasamples per second fill rate using 4x MSAA

Shader Performance	

    * 48 billion shader operations per second

Memory	

    * 512 MB of 700 MHz GDDR3 RAM
    * Unified memory architecture 

Memory Bandwidth	

    * 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
    * 256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
    * 21.6 GB/s front-side bus

Overall System Floating-Point Performance	

    * 1 teraflop

Storage	

    * Detachable and upgradeable 20-GB hard drive
    * 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
    * Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

I/O	

    * Support for up to four wireless game controllers
    * Three USB 2.0 ports
    * Two memory unit slots

Optimized for Online	

    * Instant, out-of-the-box access to Xbox Live features with broadband service, including Xbox Live Marketplace for downloadable content, gamer profile for digital identity, and voice chat to talk to friends while playing games, watching movies, or listening to music
    * Built-in Ethernet port
    * Wi-Fi ready: 802.11a, 802.11b, and 802.11g
    * Video camera–ready

Digital Media Support	

    * Support for DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, JPEG Photo CD
    * Ability to stream media from portable music devices, digital cameras, and Windows XP-based PCs
    * Ability to rip music to the Xbox 360 Hard Drive
    * Custom playlists in every game
    * Built-in Media Center Extender for Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
    * Interactive, full-screen 3-D visualizers

High-Definition Game Support	

    * All games supported at 16:9, 720p, or 1080i, with anti-aliasing
    * Standard-definition and high-definition video output supported

Audio	

    * Multi-channel surround sound output
    * Supports 48KHz 16-bit audio
    * 320 independent decompression channels
    * 32-bit audio processing
    * Over 256 audio channels

Physical Specs	

    * Height: 83 mm
    * Width: 309 mm
    * Depth: 258 mm
    * Weight: 7.7 lbs.

System Orientation	

    * Stands vertically or horizontally

Customizable Faceplates	

    * Interchangeable to personalize the console
[/sblock]

_Edit - Actually, they do look a lot closer now that I'm looking at it again.  I'd still put my money on the PS3 as the better performer, but time and the next generation of games will tell._


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## Banshee16 (Apr 15, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Well, considering the 120 gig hard drive costs what, $180 sold separately, the Elite starts to look like a good valuel.
> 
> Still, it's funny, Sony releases an expensive console packed with stuff in it (and uses standard hard drives/peripherials), people hate them for it.  MS releases an expensive console with extras that cost even more than Sony's added up, and people love them for it and can't wait to buy it.




Not if you already have the 360....I got mine in January, so it wouldn't make sense to sell it at a loss, in order to turn around and buy a more expensive one.

The difference between MS and Sony is that MS apparently found a price point that is less of a barrier to entry.  Sony packed so much into it, and I think maybe as a result, the price has been driven a tad too high for the average person.  I remember looking at it, and thinking "$700 for a game console?  What are they smoking?".

In any case, the PS3 seems to have fewer titles that I'm interested in....so many of the RPGs that the previous Playstations have seemed to be the Japanese style, which I don't like much in any case.  XBox has Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, Morrowind, Oblivion, etc....Mass Effect coming up....those are some of the titles I like.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Apr 15, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Sigh. The PS3 is not significantly more powerful than the 360. It's got a Blu-Ray player and integrated WiFi, which may be nice. But when it comes to the core elements that affect gameplay -- CPU, GPU, and memory, the two systems are either too close to call or the 360 is better.
> 
> CPU - the 360's Xenon CPU has 3 full-function in-order PowerPC cores; the PS3's Cell CPU 1 has 1 full-function in-order PowerPC core and 7 specialized helper cores. It's probably worth noting that the Cell's main core and all three of the Xenon's core are almost identical -- they're products of the same CPU design group at IBM, and manufactured at the same plant. While the Cell's design has more theoretical power in a lot of ways, the things that it's really good at are usually offloaded to graphics cards because they're even better at them. And asymetric multiprocessing (i.e. with two or more completely different CPUs) is a lot harder to program for than symetric multiprocessing (i.e. with two or more identical CPUs). If you want to give a theoretical top-end edge to the PS3 here, it's not a big one.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info....I didn't realize that.  I had been hearing a lot about how the PS3 graphics were better....seeing some demos of games like Motorstorm, and then comparing against PGR3, for example, it seemed like the 360 was lagging behind.  Maybe it's because the initial crop of games really wasn't maximizing use of the system.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Apr 15, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's my next 360 purchase.  May is the rumor but it's Bioware so expect to add at least 4-6 months to that.  I say late 2007.    Although, they can take their sweet time if they want to make it better.
> 
> I played it for about 5 hours and it wasn't bad but not as good as KotOR.  Then again, I am a huge Star Wars fan.  I recall it playing pretty well on the 360, too.
> 
> But the 4 I suggested already are the best things out there unless you are a FPS fan.  Then there are more options.




There are other cool looking ones coming up as well...

Forza 2
Fable 2
Project Offset (www.projectoffset.com)
Elveon (www.elveon.net)
Two Worlds
Conan Online
Halo 3

Banshee


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2007)

Damn, gotta tell you guys...these things went fast! Sold out everywhere in Atlanta.


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## Tharkun (Apr 30, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Later this month the XBox 360 Elite will be released. I am seriously considering getting one, although for whatever reason preorders aren't being offered at most online stores. Not at Fry's, Amazon, BestBuy, Target, or Gamestop anyway. EBay vendors are selling them for close to $200 over the MSRP, and Circuity City charges sales tax, so I guess I'll have to sit tight for a while.
> 
> Anyone getting one?




No, I'm really not interested in getting an XBox now a Wii on the other hand, I'm interested in that enough to consider getting.


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## Felon (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm not sure I get the appeal of the Wii. The motion-sensitive nunchaku controller seems pretty gimmicky to me. Is there anything else besides that? Some uber game out there for the Wii?


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## Mallus (Apr 30, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> The motion-sensitive nunchaku controller seems pretty gimmicky to me.



It is. But it's also _really_ fun, and it fundamentally changes the experience of playing video games. We were built to move, and it's hard to oversell the kinesthetic kick you get from flailing around with the stupid Wiimote... 



> Some uber game out there for the Wii?



Could be...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 30, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I get the appeal of the Wii. The motion-sensitive nunchaku controller seems pretty gimmicky to me. Is there anything else besides that? Some uber game out there for the Wii?



 For the first few minutes of playing, you feel like an idiot...then it just becomes fun and the controls seem to make so much more sense.

As for games...Zelda: Twilight Princess is amazing and uses the remote wonderfully, and even though Super Paper Mario doesn't really use the remote a huge amount, its a GREAT game.

/derail


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## Felon (May 1, 2007)

Well, I got the 360 Elite today, and managed to peel off the Best Buy weasel trying to push the $60 PRP off on me (guess I shouldn't tempt fate because, I may have reason to regret not buying it...). 

Man, now I gotta start picking some titles. 

Crackdown, Gears of War, and Lost Planet all look great. I also saw some crime-themed team shooter that had "Sin" in the name, where you can run and robbing a city and dressing up your character, but I can't find it in Gamefly's stock. Anyone know what it is?  Marvel Alliance looks cool too.

Elder Scrolls seems like the lone RPG for the console, but there are plenty of old Xbox games I missed out on, like KotOR and Jade Empire. Gotta try Thief and GTA: San Andreas too.

Mass Effect is delayed again. That's the game that started this whole mess.


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## John Crichton (May 1, 2007)

Be careful with KoTOR.  I believe the first one runs great but the second is choppy as hell and has audio issues when run on the 360.  

And c'mon mang - you knew Mass Effect was getting delayed.


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## ohGr (May 1, 2007)

As a lover of all things zombie, i can't let a chance to pimp Dead Rising pass.  It's like a playable Dawn of the Dead.  It's not perfect - the save system is kinda hinky and takes some getting used to and survivor AI can be ridiculously brain dead at times - but man is it fun.


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## Arnwyn (May 1, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, I got the 360 Elite today, and managed to peel off the Best Buy weasel trying to push the $60 PRP off on me (guess I shouldn't tempt fate because, I may have reason to regret not buying it...).



The 360 is probably the one time I _would_ consider getting the PRP - the 360 has been notoriously... "unreliable", what with a rather large number of people getting their "red lights of death".


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## jonathan swift (May 1, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> The 360 is probably the one time I _would_ consider getting the PRP - the 360 has been notoriously... "unreliable", what with a rather large number of people getting their "red lights of death".





Yes but the 360 comes with a 1 year warranty from Microsoft for hardware problems. I've had mine shipped off and fixed twice without paying a penny.


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## Atavar (May 1, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> The 360 is probably the one time I _would_ consider getting the PRP - the 360 has been notoriously... "unreliable", what with a rather large number of people getting their "red lights of death".




I bought a new 360 (along with some extras) for someone's birthday and was deeply disappointed when we go to turn it on and saw that red light come on and an error code appear on the TV screen.  It turned out to be a bad hard drive (error code 67 or something).  Luckily, one of the extras I bought was a 64MB memory card, which allowed us to set up her gamer tag and actually enjoy the thing (thus bypassing the bad hard drive).  Still, the red light ticked me off.

I bought it from Best Buy, and I did get their 2-year plan thing.  We took the 360 back the next day and they replaced the whole thing for free.  I was happy when we were able to skip most of the setup the second time with what we stored on the memory card during the first setup.

This may have been Best Buy BS, but when I initially told them I didn't want the plan and that I would be using Microsoft's own plan, they said that if I did then I would have to ship it to MS whenever there was a problem, and that MS would likely replace it with a refurbished unit rather than with a new one if they couldn't fix it.  Even if they were BS-ing, it was nice to be able to take it to a Best Buy for an instant new replacement.

Later,

Atavar


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## TwistedBishop (May 1, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> This may have been Best Buy BS, but when I initially told them I didn't want the plan and that I would be using Microsoft's own plan, they said that if I did then I would have to ship it to MS whenever there was a problem, and that MS would likely replace it with a refurbished unit rather than with a new one if they couldn't fix it.  Even if they were BS-ing, it was nice to be able to take it to a Best Buy for an instant new replacement.
> Atavar





That's exactly what happens.  Whole process takes about two weeks, from calling and ordering a pre-paid shipping box to getting the unit back.  And they're always refurbs.  I would have paid the extra money for Best Buy's instant replacement policy.


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## GlassJaw (May 2, 2007)

Just saw this yesterday:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070430-coming-this-fall-a-65nm-xbox-360.html

I'll definitely be waiting.  Maybe pick one up when GTA4 and Halo 3 hit.


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## Arnwyn (May 2, 2007)

jonathan swift said:
			
		

> Yes but the 360 comes with a 1 year warranty from Microsoft for hardware problems.



Oh, I know. But it's already been shown that 1 year hasn't really been enough, and then you have to go through the nonsense of shipping and waiting, just to get a refurbished unit (as opposed to taking it down the street and getting a new one often the same day).



> I've had mine shipped off and fixed twice without paying a penny.







			
				Atavar said:
			
		

> This may have been Best Buy BS, but when I initially told them I didn't want the plan and that I would be using Microsoft's own plan, they said that if I did then I would have to ship it to MS whenever there was a problem, and that MS would likely replace it with a refurbished unit rather than with a new one if they couldn't fix it. Even if they were BS-ing, it was nice to be able to take it to a Best Buy for an instant new replacement.



As TwistedBishop said above, this is exactly what happens. No BB BS there! 


(And, no question, the best idea is to wait for the 65nm chip(s), so one doesn't have to contend with the unreliable overheating screaming beast that the 360 currently is.)


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## jonathan swift (May 2, 2007)

I tried to return mine to Best Buy the first time it broke, it was within a week and I still had the receipt and everything but they wouldn't take it back because their computers "had no record of the transaction".


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## Mark Plemmons (May 12, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Oh, suggest away by all means!
> 
> Still hoping Mass Effect is just around the corner. That was my major impetus.




Ditto.  That's one of the upcoming games I decided I had to have a 360 for (plus Halo 3, of course).  Just got my 360 (Pro) a few weeks ago.  I've only got Dead Rising and Viva Pinata (and the full Gauntlet download, as of today) for it so far.  My fiancee and I are both big on the Xbox Live Arcade, mostly for the puzzle and old-skool arcade games.  And Settlers of Catan is now on there, too.

My own economic game plan is usually to sell old comics, games and videos and such on ebay, then use that money to buy new games and stuff (which is what I did with the 360).



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> What's the word on Jade Empire? Up to the hype?




I enjoyed it on the original Xbox, but it kept crashing during loading times, so I never got halfway through it.  Of couse, my old unit has a loading problem where you have to put in a disc several times before it finally loads it up.  So it wasn't the game itself.

Oh, my gamertag is MWP1138, if anyone wants to start an ENWorld 360 friends list.


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## Felon (May 16, 2007)

Well, I got my Gamefly account going. 

I played Lost Planet for maybe a week and then sent it back. Pretty, but a little basic in terms of gameplay.

Saint's Row, OTOH, is a wonderful game. Lots of incentive to explore, tons of mini-games, and a decent range of challenges from easy to nail-biting.

I wonder if games like Saint's Row and GTA would be more properly catgorized as RPG's?


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## freebfrost (Oct 23, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> Not true.  Core and Premium are sticking around.
> 
> http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160875



Well hey, I didn't have to wait a year!  Microsoft caved after 6 months and eliminated the Core.


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## Atavar (Oct 23, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Well hey, I didn't have to wait a year!  Microsoft caved after 6 months and eliminated the Core.




Actually, they changed it a little and repackaged it as XBOX Arcade:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360arcadesystem/

Later,

Atavar


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## GoodKingJayIII (Oct 23, 2007)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Well hey, I didn't have to wait a year!  Microsoft caved after 6 months and eliminated the Core.




Yeah, I'm kinda right and wrong on this one.  Arcade is basically the same, but if you want something pretty basic it's a lot better in terms of value.


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## trancejeremy (Oct 23, 2007)

It's a whole lot better than the core, actually, since you get a memory card with, instead of having to buy one for $50 (thus making the "core" price really $350).

You still have to pay through the nose if you ever get a hard drive for it (I think they are $100 sold alone). But it's actually viable to new buyers, IMHO.


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## Enforcer (Oct 23, 2007)

So, the Elite is still the only one with the HDMI output? I don't have an HDTV, but plan on getting one in the future, and I'd like to ensure that any console I buy has the HDMI connection.


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## drothgery (Oct 23, 2007)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> So, the Elite is still the only one with the HDMI output? I don't have an HDTV, but plan on getting one in the future, and I'd like to ensure that any console I buy has the HDMI connection.




The Elite, Arcade, and Halo 3 Special Edition always have HDMI ports. The Core never has HDMI. Pro / Premium / 'standard' 360s made since this summer have HDMI. However, there may be some older versions of the Pro / Premium / 'standard' without HDMI still on store shelves (though the Halo 3 rush may have cleared them out).

Only the Elite comes with an HDMI cable, though, and those can get expensive if you're not careful (don't buy MS / Sony / Monster HDMI cables; the generic one will work fine).


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## Felon (Oct 24, 2007)

A great deal, just in time for Mass Effect, The Orange Box, Assassin's Creed, Army of Two, and Lost Odyssey.

But how much can really be saved on a 256 MB memory card?


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## drothgery (Oct 25, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> But how much can really be saved on a 256 MB memory card?




Just going by what I've heard secondhand... the memory card ought to be fine if you're just using it for game saves. But XBLA games and Video Marketplace (not an issue yet for the non-US/Canada contingent, I think) movies will eat it up pretty quickly.


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