# [PCGAME] The Temple of Elemental Evil



## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 26, 2003)

This looks to be quiet a gem. http://www.troikagames.com/toee.htm

It seems to have mostly flown under the "hype radar".

EDIT - Wow. I found a huge FAQ!

EDIT2 - After reading through the FAQ, it definatly looks to incorporate 3e rules much better than Neverwinter Nights. It even has Item Creation feats.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 27, 2003)

Wow.. 37 views and not a single post.

Fine... I didn't want to talk about it with you anyway.


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## Welverin (Feb 27, 2003)

It's not that we don't like you or don't want to talk to you about it, it's just that we already discussed it in two other threads already.

Plus I didn't get around to checking out the liniks yet.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh crap. I guess that's what I get for not checking out the software forum much.


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## mmu1 (Feb 27, 2003)

Eh... I was the first one to post about this game on the Software Forum, and it was a good thing when it got a reply a day. The people around here are a bunch of slugs. 

The UberFAQ they link to looks interesting... Need time to digest it...


Heh... by the way, I just remembered, I have my first ToEE gripe - the lead designer mentioned having a favorite PnP character whose AC "actually went up when he was caught flat footed, because he had a Dex penalty."


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 27, 2003)

currently vary enthused for this game, but its a while off I beleive so I may beocme less enthused as time passes, and more info is released.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 27, 2003)

Actually, as I understand it, we only have a few months to wait. At least, I think that is what I read. Something like June or July. They seem to be close to completion.


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 27, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Actually, as I understand it, we only have a few months to wait. At least, I think that is what I read. Something like June or July. They seem to be close to completion. *




When I want something that's a long time to me.  

Still I've never seen an ontime game so I expect this to be delayed at least a few months.


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## Dreeble (Feb 28, 2003)

*Agreed*

Heya:

 I agree.  My view of reality would be shaken to the core if the game actually comes out in June.  Come to think of it, I'm surprised anyone actually narrowed it down to a specific month.  My experience is that companies give a season, and then try to release it before the first day of the next season. 

 Looking forward to the game, of course, for one big reason: turn-based combat.  Everything else is nice but if they can get fun tactical turn-based combat going, I'll be happy.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Neowolf (Feb 28, 2003)

Personally, I think small-scale tactical turn based combat is a woefully overlooked genre in videogames.  The Ogre Battle/Tactics Ogre games and Final Fantasy Tactics both proved that it was not only interesting but also incredibly addictive.  I can't help but nearly swoon at the thought of such a game being made with D20 rules.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 28, 2003)

I agree. Actually, I'm kinda disappointed they didn't overlay a grid. They said they didn't because the computer can calculate true distances easily, but I'd like a grid because it would give a better sense of distance for the player.

Oh well, I'm still impressed so far.

And yea, if it comes out on time, I'll be shocked. At least they didn't say "it will be done when it's done..."

They said that about Team Fortress 2 as well. Almost what? 5 years ago? Still havn't seen it, and likely want this year.


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 28, 2003)

yeah other than FFT tactics I haven't played turn based combat since the old gold box games.  I liked it in FFT but I'm not sure about it in a 3e game, but I'm fairly optomisitc I'll like it better than real time.


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## Dreeble (Feb 28, 2003)

Heya:

 I, too, loved FFT.  I'd heard there might be a sequel eventually.

 I think free movement (via no grids) can be done well in a turn-based game.  What I'd like (and what I'm hoping for) is some kind of stretch control when moving a character: you click the move button, and move your mouse on the screen, and a yellow stretchy line extends from the character to the mouse.  It could have the distance/length of the line above the mouse cursor.  The color of the line could reflect whether that distance was possible via a MEA or a double move or whathaveyou.  Ooh, assuming character location is represented via a circle (to prevent two characters from occupying the same space), it would be nice if the endpoint of the stretchy line was also a circle, so you could completely control exactly where the character would wind up.  Also, I think that uber FAQ mentioned waypoints in movement, so that would be nice, too.  Lastly, a fainter "reach" circle around the endpoint location circle, to assist in making it easier to move to a spot between two mobs, but within reach of both would be nice.

 I suspect I'm asking too much at this point.  However, the uber FAQ seemed to imply something vaguely similar to the above applied for position AE spell effects, so maybe not. 

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Feb 28, 2003)

The Troika developers hang out on the Greyhawk Inn boards and occasionally post there.  It's about as close to the "official message boards" for teh game as it gets.

I'm hanging out there (different alias) trying to educate the masses on real D&D.  Most of the folks there really don't have a clue about the rules (though there are 1 or 2).


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 3, 2003)

Dreeble said:
			
		

> *Heya:
> 
> I, too, loved FFT.  I'd heard there might be a sequel eventually.
> 
> *




A sequal is coming out for game boy advanced.  I think I'm going to break down and get one soon, especially since the cooler new flip up screen model is now out.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 5, 2003)

*Recent updates:* 

*Q. In what development stage is the game in now?*

A2. (T.C. - HomeLAN - 1/16) We have completed all of the dialogs and quests and most of the game's features, and we are entering QA this week. We are on schedule for a summer release.

*Q. Will we be able to see our paths before we move in combat?*

A2. (S.C. 2/26) We're still working it out, but currently when you hold down the mouse button, you see the path your character will take to get to the target. If you would incur any attacks of opportunity, they are displayed by a neat little icon, plus an arrow from the threatening monster. If you move the mouse before releasing the button, it's treated as an abort. I still have to color-code the path so you can tell if it's a five foot step, single move or double move.

*Q. What kind of items can we make?*

A. (S.M. 2/18) The following feats are implemented: Brew Potion, Craft Wand, Craft Rod, Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor. The kinds of potions, wands, and scrolls you can make with Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll come from a list that are is limited by your spell list (and the requirements to make specified item). Craft Rod and Wondrous Item comes from the list of rods and wondrous items that are implemented in the game. Craft Magic Arms and Armor allows you to add enhancements to existing masterwork or magical items. It is limited by the enhancements that are implemented for the game. The unique magic arms and armor are most likely not going to be craftable.

*Q. Will the game be based on the old 3E rules or the new D&D 3.5E rules?*

A2. (S.M. 2/26) At this time nobody can confirm nor deny anything. We're tricky like that. 

[NOTE] Rumor has it that Troika usually sidesteps questions regarding the Druid. This is one of the classes that is being heavily modified in 3.5. Take from that what you will.

Can't wait for this one!


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 5, 2003)

every release makes me want this more.  i love artificers, that's the thing I play 1st if given the choice, and for a 3e computer game to allow me to make magic items is what I've been wishing for, for so long.  

And this release shows that it will be more than scrolls, like I feared.


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## Dreeble (Mar 6, 2003)

Heya:

 I'm more excited by the fact they're planning on color-coding the movement line.  If he's willing to do that, it shouldn't be too much of a leap to allow for waypoints (which allows for true control of movement to avoid AoOs, etc.).

 In terms of item creation, I'd be happy if it was possible to take my +2 Longsword and have my own character (provided he has the pre-reqs) add Flaming to it.  However, this is only really significant if they can avoid the temptation to make the game a Monty Haul fest (ex: PoR2, which I admittedly enjoyed).  Also, I hope they limit themselves when it comes to magic shops.  Sure, have some, but with limited stock, so that all of the item creation feats become truly important.

 In fact, I kind of hope they balance the difficulty of the game's combats on the more difficult side, to encourage the expenditure of limited resources (like potions).  In most games (like the BG series), I hoarded potions, fearing to use them in _this_ tough fight for fear that _that_ tough fight would require 'em.  Ya know?

 It's sounding good.  I'm glad that they don't appear to be promising the moon (which inevitablly leads to heartbreaking cutbacks, a la MoO3).

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 7, 2003)

Dreeble said:
			
		

> *Heya:
> In fact, I kind of hope they balance the difficulty of the game's combats on the more difficult side, to encourage the expenditure of limited resources (like potions).  In most games (like the BG series), I hoarded potions, fearing to use them in _this_ tough fight for fear that _that_ tough fight would require 'em.  Ya know?
> *




You'll probably like IronMan mode then:

One roll on stats.  No re-rolls, no choice of where your points go.

The game controls saves -- it saves on entering an area, and picks up there when the game starts over -- so no more save/reload drills for the really hardcore.  Just like PnP -- no saving; when you're dead, you're dead.  If you've got magic, use it or you may die.

Now, I probably won't play in IronMan mode, but I am _really_ looking forward to this game!


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 19, 2003)

*FAQ UPDATE HIGHLIGHTS*

*Q. What makes this game better than other PC DnD games?*
A1. (T.C. 3/4) We are staying VERY close to D&D. No new rules because we decided to change things. We also have a very cool, multiple start, multiple path, multiple ending story

A2. (S.M. 3/4) It is important to point out that we are trying to make a faithful translation of pen and paper D&D to a CRPG with a non-linear story. I don't think any other games hold the pen and paper rules as important as we do.



Not a big update, but better than nothing. Can't wait.....


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## Angcuru (Mar 25, 2003)

So this isn't going to be a non-story Icewind Dale-style craphouse or the rule-raping abomination that is Neverwinter Nights?


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## Henry (Mar 25, 2003)

Tell us how you REALLY feel... 

I rather liked Icewind Dale 2 and Neverwinter Nights. They aren't the BEST representations of 3E out there, but then again, neither were Baldur's Gate and BG2 representative of 2E. 

Incidentally, did you ever see the modules created with the Hard Core Ruleset online? Now THOSE were some excellent mod's that brought NWN back in line with 3E. The only reason I quit playing were because there were very few really good modules made online about 6 months ago. To get really good use out of NWN requires several players and a DM matched up online.


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## D'karr (Mar 25, 2003)

The Forge of Fury and the Sunless Citadel have been adapted to NWN.

Whoever, did the conversion did a phenomenal job.  I would highly recommend them for online play with a group and a DM.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 25, 2003)

D'karr said:
			
		

> *The Forge of Fury and the Sunless Citadel have been adapted to NWN.
> 
> Whoever, did the conversion did a phenomenal job.  I would highly recommend them for online play with a group and a DM. *




Too bad they're illegal....


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 25, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Wow. I found a huge FAQ!
> *




Just wanted to let you guys know the FAQ has been updated agian. There where a few tid bits, but nothing I thought was worth quoting here.


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## D'karr (Mar 25, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Too bad they're illegal.... *




Really?  Your point being?


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## KenM (Mar 26, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Too bad they're illegal.... *




  I played the sunless cidadel, the maker of of the module gives full credit to the orginal module writer, WoTC, ect. . Since he did this and the module is free, He is not making money on it, it does not go against the EULA.


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## smetzger (Mar 26, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I played the sunless cidadel, the maker of of the module gives full credit to the orginal module writer, WoTC, ect. . Since he did this and the module is free, He is not making money on it, it does not go against the EULA. *




It may not go against the EULA in NWN.  However, it does infringe on WOTC's copyrights for the module.  Its akin to translating the module into German and giving the translation away for free, a definant copyright problem.


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## D'karr (Mar 26, 2003)

Here we go again with everyone's opinions about illegality.

Then everyone saying I am not a lawyer.

Then everyone getting on their high horse and their I'm on the moral high ground.

Could we please skip all that?

If someone doesn't work for WotC's or Hasbro's legal department then their opinion is as worthless as everyone elses.  Why don't we leave the legal wrangling to those that are responsible for it?

Now back to the thread at hand.


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## DaveMage (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: [PCGAME] The Temple of Elemental Evil*



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just wanted to let you guys know the FAQ has been updated agian. There where a few tid bits, but nothing I thought was worth quoting here. *




Ashrem: Thanks for keeping us updated!  

This sounds like a great game.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 27, 2003)

D'karr said:
			
		

> *Here we go again with everyone's opinions about illegality.
> *




I'd just like to throw in that it isn't a matter of opinion. At least, not ours here on the boards.

Wizards of the Coast has made it very clear that they consider NWN modules based on their works to be copyright infringment.


DaveMage -> You're welcome.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 11, 2003)

A. (S.M. 3/27) Here is the spell list as of the end of March. While there may be a few additions, removals, or changes, I think this will probably be the list of spells we will be shipping with (actually I think we're are going to do about another 30 more, but I'm not going to promise it). Everybody thank Huy Nguyen for working major overtime to get all of these done. 

Here's the list...
Goto Eye-On-Troika for a nifty spell reference.

Total Count: 224 
Aid 
Animal Growth 
Animal Trance 
Animate Dead 
Bane 
Barkskin 
Bestow Curse 
Bless 
Bless Water 
Blight 
Blindness Deafness 
Blink 
Blur 
Break Enchantment 
Bulls Strength 
Burning Hands 
Call Lightning 
Calm Animals 
Calm Emotions 
Cats Grace 
Cause Fear 
Chain Lightning 
Chaos Hammer 
Charm Monster 
Charm Person 
Charm Person or Animal 
Chill Metal 
Chill Touch 
Circle of Doom 
Clairaudience Clairvoyance 
Cloudkill 
Color Spray 
Command 
Cone of Cold 
Confusion 
Consecrate 
Contagion 
Control Plants 
Cure Critical Wounds 
Cure Light Wounds 
Cure Minor Wounds 
Cure Moderate Wounds 
Cure Serious Wounds 
Curse Water 
Darkvision 
Daze 
Death Knell 
Death Ward 
Delay Poison 
Desecrate 
Detect Chaos 
Detect Evil 
Detect Good 
Detect Law 
Detect Magic 
Detect Secret Doors 
Detect Undead 
Dimension Door 
Dimensional Anchor 
Discern Lies 
Dismissal 
Dispel Air 
Dispel Chaos 
Dispel Earth 
Dispel Evil 
Dispel Fire 
Dispel Good 
Dispel Law 
Dispel Magic 
Dispel Water 
Displacement 
Disrupt Undead 
Divine Favor 
Divine Power 
Dominate Animal 
Dominate Person 
Doom 
Emotion 
Endurance 
Endure Elements 
Enlarge 
Entangle 
Entropic Shield 
Expeditious Retreat 
Faerie Fire 
Fear 
Feeblemind 
Find Traps 
Fire Shield 
Fireball 
Flame Strike 
Flare 
Fog Cloud 
Freedom of Movement 
Gaseous Form 
Ghoul Touch 
Giant Vermin 
Glitterdust 
Goodberry 
Grease 
Greater Magic Fang 
Greater Magic Weapon 
Guidance 
Gust of Wind 
Halt Undead 
Haste 
Healing Circle 
Heat Metal 
Hold Animal 
Hold Monster 
Hold Person 
Hold Portal 
Holy Smite 
Ice Storm 
Identify 
Improved Invisibility 
Inflict Critical Wounds 
Inflict Light Wounds 
Inflict Minor Wounds 
Inflict Moderate Wounds 
Inflict Serious Wounds 
Invisibility 
Invisibility Purge 
Invisibility Sphere 
Invisibility to Animals 
Invisibility to Undead 
Keen Edge 
Knock 
Lesser Restoration 
Lightning Bolt 
Mage Armor 
Magic Circle against Chaos 
Magic Circle against Evil 
Magic Circle against Good 
Magic Circle against Law 
Magic Fang 
Magic Missile 
Magic Stone 
Magic Vestment 
Magic Weapon 
Meld Into Stone 
Melf's Acid Arrow 
Mind Fog 
Minor Globe of Invulnerability 
Mirror Image 
Mordenkainens Faithful Hound 
Negative Energy Protection 
Neutralize Poison 
Obscuring Mist 
Open Close 
Orders Wrath 
Otilukes Resilient Sphere 
Phantasmal Killer 
Poison 
Prayer 
Produce Flame 
Protection From Arrows 
Protection From Chaos 
Protection From Elements 
Protection From Evil 
Protection From Good 
Protection From Law 
Rage 
Raise Dead 
Ray of Enfeeblement 
Ray of Frost 
Read Magic 
Reduce 
Remove Blindness Deafness 
Remove Curse 
Remove Disease 
Remove Fear 
Remove Paralysis 
Repel Vermin 
Resist Elements 
Resistance 
Restoration 
Righteous Might 
Sanctuary 
Scare 
Searing Light 
See Invisibility 
Shatter 
Shield 
Shield of Faith 
Shillelagh 
Shocking Grasp 
Shout 
Silence 
Slay Living 
Sleep 
Sleet Storm 
Slow 
Soften Earth and Stone 
Solid Fog 
Sound Burst 
Spell Resistance 
Spike Growth 
Spike Stones 
Spiritual Weapon 
Stinking Cloud 
Stoneskin 
Suggestion 
Summon Monster I 
Summon Monster II 
Summon Monster III 
Summon Monster IV 
Summon Monster V 
Summon Nature's Ally I 
Summon Nature's Ally II 
Summon Nature's Ally III 
Summon Nature's Ally IV 
Summon Nature's Ally V 
Summon Swarm 
Tashas Hideous Laughter 
Teleport 
Tree Shape 
True Seeing 
True Strike 
Unholy Blight 
Vampiric Touch 
Virtue 
Web 
Wind Wall 

A. (S.M. 3/27) One of the reasons I posted this list this month was because "technically" this was our "Final Spells Added" milestone.

------------

Q. How many feats are in the game?
A. (T.C. 3/27) We have implemented a subset of the core books' feats, but it's a big subset. The only feats we dropped were ones the engine could not handle, like the mounted combat feats, or that were beyond the scope of the game, like Forge Ring which requires you to be 12th level.

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A. (T.C. 3/29) Let's see: parleying with demons, alcohol abuse, sexual situations, adult themes. Yeah, we're getting an M.

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Q. Does the AI have any strategy tricks up its sleeve?
A. (T.C. 3/29) We've added several cool new AI features. One is scouting, which I have mentioned before. Some monsters, upon seeing you, do NOT run to attack you. Instead, they run back to a group of their friends and alert them, and then they ALL come for you. We also have alert points, which are like day and night stand points, but they represent where the NPC will stand if the area is on alert. So if you screw up and trip an alarm or otherwise tip off that you are in a secure area, the NPC's will all head to their alert points, which are usually crucial places like stairs and staging areas.

-------------


Q. How will the teleport spell work?
A1. (H.N. 3/28) the only implementation of teleport right now is to essentially be the worldmap shortcut. out of combat, it allows you to bring up the worldmap anywhere, and travel to a known destination without random encounters. not exactly the 3rd edition spell, we know, but this was the best way to integrate a worldmap "shortcut" (given the choice between an item or a spell or an Orb of the Moons that could do this), and teleport was given this functionality. sorry for the Ultima reference 

A2. (H.N. 3/28) teleport will technically be teleport without error ...for obvious fun reasons!

A3. (H.N. 3/31) [Teleport is] currently [limited to] wiz/sor 5 and travel domain 5 only

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Q. How does dimension door differ from teleport?
A. (H.N. 3/28) dimension door is the one currently used in combat/dungeons to move the caster to non-worldmap destinations. teleport may be changed/added so that it functions like dimension door, only with the entire party (probably out of combat). the problem of course, with spells such as these, is bypassing scripted areas/events, where dependencies may break. we'll see 

------------


There you go guys. Just keeping the hype up.


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## Welverin (Apr 11, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Q. How will the teleport spell work?
> A1. (H.N. 3/28) the only implementation of teleport right now is to essentially be the worldmap shortcut. out of combat, it allows you to bring up the worldmap anywhere, and travel to a known destination without random encounters. not exactly the 3rd edition spell, we know, but this was the best way to integrate a worldmap "shortcut" (given the choice between an item or a spell or an Orb of the Moons that could do this), and teleport was given this functionality. sorry for the Ultima reference
> *




Why on Earth would you be sorry for an Ultima reference? I liked it.


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## frompkin (Apr 12, 2003)

D'karr said:
			
		

> *The Forge of Fury and the Sunless Citadel have been adapted to NWN.
> 
> Whoever, did the conversion did a phenomenal job.  I would highly recommend them for online play with a group and a DM. *




And where might I find these nuggets of RPG goodness?


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## D'karr (Apr 13, 2003)

frompkin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And where might I find these nuggets of RPG goodness? *




I found them at the NWVault.

Look for them at this page.

You should be able to find them there.  Have fun.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 14, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why on Earth would you be sorry for an Ultima reference? I liked it. *




Just to be clear, I didn't say that. It was part of the direct quote from the FAQ.

Never really played Ultima myself.


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## Dreeble (Apr 14, 2003)

*NWN*

Heya:

 With the suggestions here I went and downloaded the Sunless Citadel and Forge of Fury mods for Neverwinter Nights.  _Tons_ of fun, both.  The only thing I knew about those two adventures beforehand was from the snippets I've picked up here in the General forum (Sunless Citadel) and Wulf Ratbane's story hour (Forge of Fury).  Great stuff seeing vaguely remembered elements in both mods.

 Another cool thing was having an actual "adventuring party".  The mod allowing multiple henchman was very cool and having a degree (a limited degree, to be honest) of control over their inventory was nice.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Welverin (Apr 14, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Just to be clear, I didn't say that. It was part of the direct quote from the FAQ.*




Yep, I know. That was a general comment on the faq.



> *Never really played Ultima myself.*




Well you've really missed out.


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## Ranger REG (Apr 14, 2003)

Are you talking about the early _Ultima_ games back in the 80's? Those were cool.


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## Welverin (Apr 15, 2003)

U6 was the first one I played and I was never able to get around the interface in the previous games to really play them (why I'm look to a few remakes as mods for modern games). So for me it was U6, U7, SI, and both Underworlds as the real stand out games.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Apr 16, 2003)

Feat and skill list as of 7 April, from an interview with Sorcerer's Place:



> Tim Cain: We have implemented 55 feats and 22 skills. They are:
> 
> Feats:
> 
> ...


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## Dreeble (Apr 17, 2003)

*End of chain feats*

Heya:

 Very cool they got Great Cleave, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack in there.  One of the few things I dislike about Neverwinter Nights is the lack of "high" level feats.  Of course, the fact NWN uses realtime combat explains a lot of this.  On the other hand, Shadows of Undrentide will have Great Cleave, so what do I know.

 [jimmy]Looking forward to this game, very much.[/jimmy]

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Liminal Syzygy (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree. The paucity of feats in NWN made it very difficult to customize characters.

Because TOEE is turn based, just like tabletop, it's easier for Troika to be true to the real feats such as Spring Attack. 

SoU is implementing Spring Attack, but my understanding of their implementation is that you never take an AoO from anyone for moving...


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## Luddite (Apr 18, 2003)

For useful tidbits...

Tim Cain Talks about Making ToEE 

-The Luddite


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 18, 2003)

Yea, I saw that earlier. what I want to know is, what does this  look like?

They claim it is very close to completion, yet I havn't seen a single screen shot.


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## Luddite (Apr 18, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Yea, I saw that earlier. what I want to know is, what does this  look like?
> 
> They claim it is very close to completion, yet I havn't seen a single screen shot. *




You and everyone else 8*)...

There are few outside of the company that have seen it, and they are not sharing.  But if they say it is near completion, I would belive it.  The lack of news and what not is more of an issue with Infograms (the publisher) and not Troika.

-The Luddite


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## Dreeble (Apr 18, 2003)

*Confused*

Heya:

 "SoU is implementing Spring Attack, but my understanding of their implementation is that you never take an AoO from anyone for moving..."

 This confuses me.  Do you mean that with Spring Attack a character will never suffer from movement-based AoOs again (in PnP I think it's no movement-based AoOs from the target of the Spring Attack only) or something else?

 If the former then, um, wow.

 On a related note (related to AoOs) I hope that ToEE does a better job of "protecting" mages than PoR2:RoMD did.  It was far too easy to run around a mage's melee protectors and get up close to the mage.  Divine casters, in my experience, were smart enough at that point to avoid casting, and do melee only.  Arcane casters, especially liches, would start to cast a spell, and the four or five guys standing around them would all smack away. 

Take care,
Dreeble


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## KenM (Apr 19, 2003)

When is ToEE due out again? can't wait.


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## TheAuldGrump (Apr 19, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Yea, I saw that earlier. what I want to know is, what does this  look like?
> 
> They claim it is very close to completion, yet I havn't seen a single screen shot. *




Hmmm, a couple of months ago they had some screenshots on their site, now nothing. It's a conspiracy I tell you!

Seriously I have no idea why they removed the pictures, it was looking quite lovely in a gothic cathedral kind of way....

As for how long it will take, the engine is complete, they just have to do more pretty pictures and dialog.

The Auld Grump


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Apr 21, 2003)

The Troika team have said several times that they would like to release screenshots, but can't ... guess that's up to whoever owns/promotes the game.  

As to AoOs, I hope they get those and Sneak Attacks right.

POR2 got Sneak attacks right, but you'd only get an AoO if someone moved through your threatened area and you had the Combat Reflexes feat, of if they drank a potion/cast a spell in your threatened area, or if you withdrew -- no 5' steps, and the bad guys could run around and attack your mage with impunity.

NWN seems to give out sneak attacks even without flatfooted/flanking, and you seem do draw an AoO whever you move -- even if it's just the jockeying around the computer does automatically  

Based on the Troika team's responses on their boards, though, not only do they seem to have a good grasp of the rule set, but they also seem dedicated to implementing every little detail, provided it can be supported in a reasonable computer environment.  I've got high hopes for this game; I'm a little disappointed that it isn't getting more hype and press -- but then after being disappointed after all the hype for NWN and POR2, maybe that's a good thing.


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## Olorin (Apr 21, 2003)

I've been playing a lot of NWN lately with a Rogue/Fighter, so I've been watching closely to see how it handles Sneak Attacks and AoOs.

I don't get sneak attacks if I am the only one attacking an enemy. If someone else is I get them occasionally, I guess it depends on how the system figures out someone is "flanked". I also get sneak attacks with a bow if the target is in melee with someone else (slight departure there).  So basically you only want to engage enemies that have someone else on them.

As far as AoOs go, it seems reasonably close to the rules. If you drink a potion, fire a bow, cast a spell, etc. within melee range, there is an AoO. I think 5 foot steps are actually in the game to some degree, I've moved a short distance away from an enemy and drank a potion with no AoO, but if I run away I usually get one. Running by enemies definitely incurs AoOs.

I also have high hopes for ToEE also, I am looking forward to a nice turn-based combat system with more of the 3E ruleset implemented. There is something to be said for real-time combat as well though, they each have their plusses and minuses.


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## Dreeble (Apr 21, 2003)

*PoR2 and NWN*

Heya:

 My experience with PoR2 has been that 5' steps _are_ in the game.  This can be observed by the fact that sometimes a PC can't attack a monster.  Move a smidge up and now that PC can full attack the monster.  Etc.  100% agree on the "attack mages with impunity."  I really hope ToEE allows the player to protect his or her mages effectively _and_ allows a lich (or whatever) to have its underlings protect it effectively.  I think designers can make turnbased combat fun in ways realtime sometimes isn't (due to the lack of control) by having things like this (protecting allies), taking advantage of cover, etc.

 My experience with NWN and specifically sneak attacks (I'm currently playing a series called Citadel of Blood with a Dwarf Rogue5/Fighter 9) is that I can get sneak attacks in the _middle_ of a fight against a single opponent, with nobody else attacking it.  Weird, and maybe I'm interpreting things incorrectly.  Basically, my opinion has been that the BG series made sneak attacks (well, backstabs) far too rare, NWN makes them far too common (maybe because flanking in NWN only requires two attackers anywhere on the defender rather than on opposite sides), with PoR2 being fairly close to "right".

 If they release a demo (say, of the Moathouse) for ToEE, I'll be very, very pleased. 

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 22, 2003)

Screenshot! Well... kinda.

http://www.gamespy.com/asp/image.as...image=/previews/february03/toeevil/nguyen.jpg


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Apr 23, 2003)

The ToEE  trailer is out!

Follow the link to download the 11MB zip file.

Awesome!  And they confirm it's going 3.5!

Edit: Rumor is someone jumped the gun on releasing this, so it may not be up long ...


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## KenM (Apr 23, 2003)

I downloaded the trailer, looks like its going to ROCK. Beholders, geltanious cubes, all sorts of stuff. judging from the trail, looks like it might play like Arcanum. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Has anyone heard how ToEE will be doing character creation? point buy or rolling? Point buy makes sense in an online game like NWN for balance, but not in a single player game like this will be, I want to roll my stats.


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## Welverin (Apr 23, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *
> Edit: Rumor is someone jumped the gun on releasing this, so it may not be up long ... *




Yeah, I'd say it was leaked considering it ends with "Legal Goes Here."


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## mmu1 (Apr 23, 2003)

Heh, did anyone else get a kick out of the huge fiery demon facing a single character in a gray robe?


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## Greyhawk_DM (Apr 23, 2003)

I liked the dragon breathing....looked very, very cool.....
Heck the whole thing looked awesome.....


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## Lordrel (Apr 23, 2003)

*dang*

Missed it. "Removed by request from Infogrames".

But it is still available in other place.  
Looks pretty good so far.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 23, 2003)

Cool..........


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh wow!  I don't know how I let this game slip under my radar for so long, but now that I've seen it, I can't wait!  Finally, a 3e (3.5e, actually) computer game that uses a turn-based combat system so that feats like great cleave, spring attack, and whirlwind attack can be implimented.

The FAQ also has some tidbits that have me practically drooling in anticipation, such as the fact that there will be multiple paths through the game, and multiple endings.  Skills like bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate will be included for NPC interaction, and even the item creation feats will be included.  This game looks like it will follow the rules closer than any other 3rd edition D&D game to date.

This game can't arrive soon enough for my tastes.  Oh well, in the meantime I'll have to occupy myself with the expansion packs for Neverwinter Nights and Warcraft III.


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## KenM (Apr 24, 2003)

Has anyone heard if character creation will be point buy or die roll? This is the only part of ToEE I really want to know about.


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## Luddite (Apr 24, 2003)

Form the Uber FAQ 


Q. Will die rolls be used to determine your starting ability scores, or will a point buy system be used?
A1. (I.B. 2/10) A point-buy system seems likely, but there may be a die roll for Ironman mode.

A2. (H.N. 2/7) the point buy method is (will probably be) the standard one from the [Dungeon Master's Guide]; that is, 25 points to distribute among abilities, which all start at 8. points up to and including 14 cost 1 point, 15 and 16 are 2 points, 17 and 18 are 3 points, etc ..

A3. (S.M. 3/4) You get to pick [the rolling method]. The die roll is 4d6 drop the lowest, and point buy is ??? I forgot how many points. I think its 25 (thats what Huy says). We let you reroll as many times as you want on the 4d6 but it does keep track of the rolls. You can also play in IronMan mode which if your roll 4d6 you don't get to reroll. And rumor is that if you reroll your stats a whole lot you get all 18s... but thats just a rumor. (wink, wink).

Scores: 
1-13 = 1 point
14-16 = 2 points
17 and above = 3 points


-The Luddite


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## KenM (Apr 24, 2003)

So whats ironman mode? I want to roll my stats, you should be able to because its a single player game.


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 24, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> *So whats ironman mode? I want to roll my stats, you should be able to because its a single player game. *




Ironman mode will be for those hardcore players who want the game to be as close to a pen & paper D&D campaign as possible.  You only get to roll your stats up once, and you only get to save your game at certain points.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 2, 2003)

Recent developer chat transcript.

Balors & dire chickens are in.


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## KenM (May 2, 2003)

Excellent, rolling for stats is in, as visible cloaks/ robes.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 17, 2003)

The official Atari site for ToEE is up.

There's some nice screenshots there.  This game's really looking good!


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## DaveMage (May 18, 2003)

Olgar: Thanks for the site update!

This game does look rather cool.

Of course, since it uses the new D&D ruleset, I guess we will have to wait at least 2 more months - until after the official release of 3.5.  *sigh*


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 19, 2003)

Yeah, release is alternately given as "Summer, 03" or "Q3, 03" -- hope "Summer" is right, since that would more likely mean a July or August release (they originally said June, but I sincerely doubt that will happen).


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## Zenon (May 19, 2003)

I followed the Order link on the Atari Site to EBWorld. They have a ship date of 9/16/03:

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/products/product.asp?pf_id=235558


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## Welverin (May 19, 2003)

Sept 16th is in Summer so they're still on track, but cutting it close.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 19, 2003)

Too close  

I hope the 16 September date is a "not later than" date so the retailers can be safe ... but with my luck that will be the final release date.


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## Welverin (May 20, 2003)

It's all part of an evil plan on part of the industry t make us all go into gamer shock, sort of like ferret shock, what with Half-life 2 coming out in the same month.


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## DaveMage (Jun 5, 2003)

I just received my PC Gamer in the mail yesterday.  It had an "exclusive" report on ToEE (although I didn't see much in there that we haven't discussed here).

The chart at the front of the article had a release date of "Late 2003".  In the body of the article the release was mentioned to be "in the Fall".


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 6, 2003)

If true:  Boo.  Hiss.


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## WizarDru (Jun 6, 2003)

I believe that gamespy has a set of three screenshots from ToEE as part of an interview article they just put up.  The shots look rather nice, with little avatar pics at the top, lined up in intiative order (PCs and monsters).

The graphics look nice, and one appears to be on the Fire Node, I'm guessing.  It looks like the interface will be fairly clean, and supposedly will be using the 3.5 rules.  The design team sounds pretty knowledgeable about D&D in general (enough to note the oddness of a giant having a 17 Charisma, for example) and claim to have broken out the original module and played through it for research purposes (as well as having played it back in the 80s).


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 7, 2003)

I'm a regular on both of the ToEE boards the Troika guys post on, and I have to vouch for the fact that they have a really good grasp of the game rules.

Tim Cain has made a point of only changing rules where he has to -- even when there are areas that might be handled differently in traditional CRPGs, he defers to the D&D ruleset whenever possible.  He's noted that he knows fans will looks over the game with a microscope to find out what 3E (well, 3.5) rules they implemented wrong -- kind of like PJ did with Lord of the Rings.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Jun 24, 2003)

Still looking forward to this!


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## Welverin (Jul 18, 2003)

New preview at Gamespot.


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## DaveMage (Jul 18, 2003)

Interesting.

I'm not sure I like the "party alignment" idea, but I need to ponder it a bit.

Also, the top of the article lists a release of 9/17, but the last line says it will be released in "October". 



Should be fun when it finally is released.  (And I'd rather they get the bugs out beforehand.)  

Sometimes, though, I wish that I didn't hear about these games until 1 week before they release.  I hate waiting!


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## Dreeble (Jul 20, 2003)

*ToEE and ComicCon*

Heya:

 I played the demo at the San Diego Comic Con this morning a bit.  Here's some random thoughts:

o It looks a bit like Pool of Radiance:Ruins of Myth Drannor.  Not so much in terms of graphics (ToEE graphics are far better looking, far more colorful (PoR had mile after mile of the same drab dungeon passageways)), but in terms of playstyle.  As far as I could tell, there was no combat grid.  There's a movement bar that drains as a PC moves and it was color-coded, I think, so perhaps the topmost bit of the bar indicates whether you've moved less than a 5 foot step.  Not sure about that.  Anyway, my point was that moving characters was similar to PoR, what with the lack of fine grain control.  There is a blue circle that shows where the PC will wind up, though, so it's not too random.

o Maybe it was just the settings or something, but the characters were really big on the screen.  Far closer to Planescape relative sizing than Baldur's Gate, for example.

o When I first went up to the game (it was on 2 stations), nobody was playing it and it was at the options screen.  I chose New Game and it put me directly into what was obviously a saved position.  Four characters, a dwarf warrior (level 10, I think), a paladin (she probably was a druid/paladin, now that I think about it), a wizard, and another character.  Inventory is pretty standard, what PCs wear wasn't a paperdoll exactly, closer to EQ's square slots I think.  Easy to navigate.  Left clicking an item gives its stats.  The dwarf's waraxe was 1d12 (20, x4).  I thought they were x3, but that's fine.

o Casting spells has a plus and a minus.  The plus is that it's easy to choose spells.  Right click the caster and a circle appears around the character, sectioned off.  The rightmost section says WIZ or DRU or whatever.  Clicking that causes a semicircle to expand on that side, with sections labelled 1,2,3,4,5 (no cantrips, obviously).  The druid in the demo had HORRIBLE spells selections.  Everything was Summon Nature's Ally, or Magic Fang, or Call Lightning.  No cure spells, which hurt when I went up against the Vrock.  Clicking a spell level causes another semicircle to expand outwards, sectioned off, containing the names of the spells the caster can cast (entire names present).

o The minus on casting spells is that if the caster is on the right side of the screen, when the spell names expand out, you won't be able to read them.  Maybe there's (actually I pray there is) a "Center On Current Character" button, since casters absolutely require that.  There's got to be a button like this.  I wish there'd been somebody around to ask questions, but it didn't really seem like it.  And I definitely had that "Hey, I wanna ask questions look" on my face.

o Also casting spells: Targetting is very nice.  Casting fireball put up a big blue circle that allowed me to cover exactly the target I wanted (my PCs and some nearby monsters).  One nice thing is that on screen you see all the saves, damage, etc. but if you want to be sure who is taking damage, making their saves, etc., there's a log of that you can look at.  Targetting a lightning bolt was easy too, it's a long slightly thick blue line.  Magic Missiles can be individually targeted to multiple monsters (a red circle appeared around my target with a 1/5 in the middle, every time I clicked it went 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, 5/5).  That was from a wand, by the way.

o Summoned monsters didn't impress me.  I had the druid cast a few nature's ally spells against the Vrock.  I couldn't tell if they even had hit points, since the Vrock would do some kind of stunning breath or sonic wave or something and the polar bear and dire wolf (and one other, I think, boa constrictor, maybe) just fell over.

o When I realized the Vrock fight was going poorly, I tried loading a different save.  I was eventually successful, but there was EXTREME lag in trying to select a new save to load.  Probably just some kind of memory leak or something and one of the traits of a demo.

o The Vrock was in a courtyard of a caste or something.  My party went underneath an arch to get into the courtyard and the game paused, obviously loading the Vrock and the visible area.  I saw somebody else send characters through a doorway and it was a more traditional area transition.

o The demo characters' equipment was pathetic.  No wonder I had trouble against the Vrock: no magic weapons.  I think the one hit the dwarf made, one point got through DR.  No potions, either, although the wizard had a Brew Potion section on the opposite side from the spells.  The druid/paladin had a bunch of special abilities.  I had no luck with Lay On Hands, though.  Is it supposed to draw an AoO?  The Heal ability (skill?) healed the cleric (that was the fourth character, I think) from -5 to 23, but she didn't get up.  Not sure if that's how it's supposed to be, if she was permanently stunned by the Vrock, or what.

o Scrolling the screen and character movement was a little slow.  Either a demo issue (I hope) or controlable via settings.

o There was no rogue in the default party so I never thought to try sending a character off on his own to scout stealthily.  I did send a character out alone a bit and monsters immediately reacted.  Hopefully they have to make spot checks against hiding characters.

o Of the creatures I killed (giant frogs, kobolds, I think), none had treasure.  No treasure chests either.

o I'm tempted to go back tomorrow just to spend more time with the game.  If I could rearrange the casters' spells, I'm pretty sure I could apply some smackage to that Vrock, despite its 22 SR. 

Take care,
Dreeble

o


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 20, 2003)

Cool report; go play some more and get us more info!

Supposedly, 0-level spells are in (there just may not be that many of them).

I expect the demo is pre-errata, I know the design team's been fixing a lot of things.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 20, 2003)

Here's the response to Dreeble's comments from one of the Troika developers (Huy Nguyen -- hopefully I got his name right).

This is from the official ToEE Boards, as opposed to the Greyhawk Inn (but the devs post both places).



> Sean Craig was actually at the comicon yesterday, so anyone there might have seen him
> 
> this demo setup itself sounds somewhat lackluster though, from what the poster is saying; there is no one there to help? no one to guide/give instructions on how to play? i personally wasn't even aware that we had a demo going at the comicon, go figure...
> 
> ...




Edit: original smilies inserted at Troike Huy's request


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## Decamber (Jul 21, 2003)

It seems great, though I wonder which platforms are going to be supported. Realistically, it's Windows and only Windows; I hope, however, that Linux will be natively supported. Otherwise, perhaps WineX can manage to run it.


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## Dreeble (Jul 21, 2003)

*Clarification: I LOVE ToEE!*

Heya:

 I followed the link and read the thread and just wanted to clarify (I actually I thought I put this in my post): I'm buying ToEE the nanosecond it comes out.  Did playing the demo increase the chances that I'd do this?  No, because I was _already_ planning on getting the game the nanosecond it comes out.  I've read the Uberfaq and loved everything I'd read in it.  I've read some threads at Greyhawk Inn (I tried to register at the Troika site, but I'm only willing to use Yahoo-style email addresses and they don't like those) and liked what I saw there.

 So, I'm a fan.

 Now that I think about it, I really shouldn't have mentioned PoR in my post.  Personally, I loved the game.  Yeah, really.  Despite nearly pulling my hair out the first night due to the invis bug.  It's still on my hard drive (since I'm afraid to uninstall it, to be honest, heh).  I've played through it three times and actually got the non-bugged ending the third time, woo!  However, I do understand that some people really were unhappy with it.  Also, with www.alindyar.com's SpeedHack (I don't think it's there anymore, sadly) the game was infinitely more enjoyable.

 Anyway, back to ToEE:

o Official people at the Atari area: Didn't really seem like anyone official was there as far as I could tell.  There was a guy consistently playing the Magic Battlegrounds game, but he had a Comic Con bag, so I think he was a fan, too.

o ToEE graphics: Just to reiterate, they looked great.  And I _like_ the (relatively) bigger models.  They look good and fit the environment.  There was a giant frog that was bigger than a horse, relative to the characters.  Very nice.  

o Combat movement control: Like I said, I'm getting the game no matter what.  However, without a combat grid, it's a bit difficult moving a support character up close enough to a front line fighter to heal the fighter (for example) while being positive the support character isn't within Reach of the big nasty.  

o Demo characters and saves: Oh, yeah, it was very obvious this was a demo and a good thing, too.  Having a wide variety of spells and abilities (via high levels) gave me the opportunity to try out lots of spells and wands.  If it had been 4 1st lvl characters, well, I'd've still had fun to be honest, but it was neat seeing all the cool spell effects.

o Cantrips: It wouldn't actually bother me if cantrips weren't in (though don't let me influence any decision on them), since in general they usually are more roleplaying oriented than computer roleplaying useful, if you see what I mean.

o Right click and drag radial menu: Woo!  Praise Jebus!  And Home to center on currently selected target is great, too.

o Summoned monsters: I dunno, I'd think a polar bear would have at least 40 hit points or so.  There wasn't even a damage message above the monsters.  The Vrock did something and they just fell over.  Not anything to panic about, of course. 

o Possible Heal Bug: The Vrock did a full attack on the Cleric (I think), sending her to -4 or -5 and dying.  I moved the Paladin up to Lay On Hands, but it seemed like that incurred an AoO (I could easily be wrong on this).  Next round, the Paladin used the Heal skill and the Cleric went from -5 to 18 (not 23, actually, just a 23 point difference), but the Cleric didn't get up.  Before being healed and after the Cleric was apparently Stunned by the Vrock and this could easily be why.  I just figured the Cleric would stand up and be stunned.

o Treasure: Okay, maybe it's not realistic for a creature without pockets to have treasure but I wanna Kill Monsters And Take Their Stuff (tm). 

o So, anyway, I'm feeling this game.  It looks soooo close.  Can I ask about a sequel now?

Take care,
Dreeble


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## theoremtank (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: Clarification: I LOVE ToEE!*



			
				Dreeble said:
			
		

> *Heya:
> 
> 
> o Combat movement control: Like I said, I'm getting the game no matter what.  However, without a combat grid, it's a bit difficult moving a support character up close enough to a front line fighter to heal the fighter (for example) while being positive the support character isn't within Reach of the big nasty.
> ...




This is an element of gameplay I have found most D&D games to be lacking in.  I too would really like movement in combat to be strategic.  I would like some kind of graphical sign that indicates I put my player in the exact place I wanted as if I were playing on a grid and considering all the rules for attacks of opportunities, etc.  I understand that having a grid overlay some of those beautifully rendered backgrounds is not the best option, but perhaps there is a button you could hold down where a grid would overlay the combat area until you release the key.  Or any other method would satisfy, as long as there is some kind of indication to me my character was moved where I intended.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 21, 2003)

From Huy (above):



> holding the ALT key in combat will put you into "waypoint mode", where you can see exactly where you are travelling, and how much it will cost you.




Other posts from the devs have said that if you use this mode, it will indicate to you where you will take an AoO, and you can adjust your path accordingly.

For PnP gamers who are used to using grids that may feel a little strange, but it's probably easier for the vast majority of (non-D&D) CRPG players who will pick up this game.

Sure, I'd like a grid to plot movement, too, but if the system works the way they say it will it will work fine without it.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 21, 2003)

Drool.....


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## theoremtank (Jul 21, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *From Huy (above):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This sounds good to me then.  Since I do agree it would be a shame to see a grid layed over those beautifully rendered backgrounds.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 24, 2003)

The game appears to be nearing release ... on the Atari ToEE boards, the developers have mentioned they are submitting gold candidates.

Also, in the October issue of PC Gamer (the one with Doom3/Half-Life2 on the cover) there's a preview, a poster map with a walkthrough of the Moathouse dungeon, and a DVD-ROM that contains a 10-minute preview of the game, narrated by the developers.

I got the mag for the cool stuff, but didn't realize it was a DVD-ROM instead of a CD.  I don't have a DVD-ROM drive, so I haven't been able to view the preview.    The poster is pretty neat, though, and clearly indicates that there will be lots of ways to play this game.


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## Stormfalcon (Aug 24, 2003)

You guys may want to hunt down the current (Sept. 2003) issue of Computer Games magazine.  Very nice cover story on ToEE, along with a short interview with Gary Gygax, a review of the new NWN expansion and a preview of the upcoming one as well.


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## Welverin (Aug 26, 2003)

Updated impressions at Gamespot, short though.


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## KnowTheToe (Aug 31, 2003)

Was just thinking about the game, so I will give this a little bump.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Sep 5, 2003)

Insiders on the Atari ToEE boards are reporting the game has gone GOLD!

Formal US release date is scheduled for Sept 23rd.


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## Welverin (Sep 5, 2003)

Another preview at Gamespot.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Sep 5, 2003)

There will be a chat Friday 5 Sept at 4 PM PST with head eveloper Tim Cain at Gamespy Arcade.

Edit: Tim Cain chat transcript in this thread.


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## Welverin (Sep 6, 2003)

Then again, maybe not.


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