# How to... ( miniatures)?



## Stegger (Aug 29, 2003)

Hi,
a friend and myself are going to get started on painting miniatures for our future d&d games. Now, we dont have any experience at all; I dont know whether to by plastid or metal ( metal seems "nicer"), what paint to use, what pencils etc, what company makes the best ones and also of course how to paint them!?!?!?  
Do you have any experience to share on how to get started, any links to homepages, some tricks to share, some companies to recommend or stay away from, or where to bye the miniatures and painting equipment.
In essence, how to..... with miniatures!
Thank you very much for your replies  
Stegger


----------



## Aaron2 (Aug 29, 2003)

Stegger said:
			
		

> Hi,
> a friend and myself are going to get started on painting miniatures for our future d&d games. Now, we dont have any experience at all; I dont know whether to by plastid or metal ( metal seems "nicer"), what paint to use, what pencils etc, what company makes the best ones and also of course how to paint them!?!?!?




Here's my advice for starting out...

First start with plastic minis, you don't feel bad when you screw them up. Second, use white spray paint to paint them completely white. Third, go to your local Micheals or craft store and buy the big tubes of acrylic paint; pick white, black, red and a few other basic colors. Finally, when you paint, thin the paint with water before you use it. Experiment with various thinesses. 

Practice for a while until you realize that most of what I've told you is wrong. Then you'll know what to do.


Aaron


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 29, 2003)

You need to prime the miniatures before painting.  Spray primer is the best for this, it comes in gray or black versions.  I prefer black - it helps mask any areas you miss, especially in hard to get at areas.

You can use any acrylic paints.  I wouldn't go for BIG tubes - Michael's (a crafts store) has tubes of Acrylic craft paints for under $1 a bottle.  They come in little squeeze bottles, 2 ounces each, and I still haven't run out of the first ones I bought quite some time ago.  The nice thing about cheap paints is you can buy lots of them for very little money.  I have something like 25-30 bottles, and I'm not much of a painter.

I's go for metal miniatures.  You'll want something to cut off flashing, and a file to smooth any rough edges out.

Lastly, you'll want a spray sealer to use once you're done painting.


----------



## Arravis (Aug 29, 2003)

I've been painting since 1980, but the best piece of advice I can give you is to go to Doc Faust's :
http://www.paintingclinic.com/

For a new painter, especially:
http://www.paintingclinic.com/clinic/clinic.htm

Dr. Faust also has links to a number of sites that will help as well . The most depressing of which is: http://www.wegotgame.net/jen/main.html  (because I know I'll never be anywhere as kick ass as Jen is, hehe)

Anyway, I hope that helps


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 29, 2003)

Here are some links to several good mini painting pages. I'm not trying to overload you, but there are some good painting techniques and basic painting guides & tips. 

http://www.paintingclinic.com
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/games/miniatures/painting-faq/
http://miniature-painting.net/index.html
http://hot-lead.org/
http://www.discounthobby.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=DIS
http://www.100kingdoms.com/index.cfm
http://www.reapermini.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/pp/pp20010607a
http://www.ironwindmetals.com/
http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/
http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/liste_rayons.cfm?code_lg=lg_us
http://www.coolminiornot.com/
http://www.albinorhino.com/hobby/
http://theminiaturespage.com/


----------



## BiggusGeekus@Work (Aug 29, 2003)

I also prefer black primer to white.  If you're just starting you'll miss a bunch of spots and black primer hides it better.  White primer makes the colors stand out more, but if you're just starting with minis you aren't as concerned about that.

Citadel has a great line of paints.  They are a notch overpriced, but you'll have the luxury of just being able to grab Citadel stuff and not have to worry if its good for minis.  

Start with plastic minis.  You're going to screw up a lot and plastic is cheap.  I also like plastic minis because I can afford more of them so I buy more.  A huge horde of painted goblins is pretty cool to look at.  

I've found that cheap nail files work just fine for sanding down the molding lines on plastic minis.  Don't bother with the expensive metal files just yet.

A good product to check out is the Warhammer Starter Paint Set.  Again, you could probably find slightly cheaper stuff if you looked around.  But this set includes a nice variety of paints, a brush, and four human archers (which you'll probably need sooner or later for your game).  It should be around US$20-25.  

Finally, remember, no one looks at minis from three inches away.  Minis are usually viewed from a few feet away so if you mess up small details no one will notice.  Just sit back and enjoy painting.


----------



## Stegger (Aug 29, 2003)

thanks, I will have a look at those pages.
Any other opinions or ideas?


----------



## KnowTheToe (Aug 29, 2003)

White primer.

It is easier to see the details of the mini when using white primer.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 29, 2003)

BTW, a couple of the links in my post above are actually for companies that produce miniatures, or online stores. But I included them as I find them helpful when looking for individual miniatures I want to buy, or to get painting ideas.


----------



## Keith (Aug 29, 2003)

There are some nice sites on painting miniatures, that is for sure.  I’ll throw in my own basic advice here, though.  
First of all, whether you buy metal or plastic (and I don’t think that makes a huge difference; buy the figures you like regardless of this factor, I would say), clean them and remove flashing with a sharp craft knife (so you will need one of those), and if you get a metal one file the bottom of it flat (so, a cheap file for that).
Then, spray prime in a well ventilated area.  Painting without priming is, at best, very difficult, and also pretty pointless.  Priming only takes a few minutes and makes all the difference.  There are a variety of colors available, but I agree that in most cases black is far better.  Particularly armored figures; spray black, dry-brush with metal…pretty close to finished.  Brush on primer tends to obscure more detail.

For beginners, I would recommend doing skin areas with a dark tone dry-brushed with a light tone, and not try to paint facial features (depending on what scale you are using).  My other advice is make liberal use of dry-brushing: paint an area with one shade, then dry-brush over it to pick out highlights.  This doesn’t require much skill, and can really make a nice difference in appearance (quickly, too).  To dry-brush, put some paint on the brush, and then run the brush back and forth on a paper towel or the like until there is seemingly little or no paint wet on the brush.  Then draw the brush lightly over the area you want to highlight.  This process is hard on brushes, so use the same one for it, and buy a cheaper one for this purpose to start with.  Keep your other brushes in better shape at the tip.  Another nice and easy technique is washing some areas with diluted artists’ ink.

My only other advice is to get some flocking and take the bother of gluing some on the base of each figure.  Again, it is not skilled work, and can make things look much nicer than say just a flat painted base.

My last comment is that you can get decent at painting pretty quickly, but at the same time, you may always be stunned by what more experienced people can do (I know I am).  Use bright light and maybe magnifying glasses to help out.  Be patient, but finish things at your own pace and be happy with what you can do.

Have fun!


----------



## Keith (Aug 29, 2003)

I like Reaper paints.  Citadel paints are nice enough, but they do tend towards more fantastic or cartoony colors, to me, unblended.  I would say if you want more realistic color schemes for medieval-type figures, say, reaper can be of more use.

Reaper have great figures, too, if you are going for that scale.  It is harder now to accumulate the, er, “not-heroic” 25mm scale, so the Reaper and Citadel figures offer a nice mix of options at the slightly larger scale.

By the way, I have found Citadel brushes not so great, personally.  Also, if you are gluing metal figures together, the Citadel glue works fine, but is more than twice the cost of the similar glues readily available elsewhere.


----------



## Bran Blackbyrd (Aug 29, 2003)

Reaper's Dark Heaven and Warlord miniature lines are awesome.
Remove the flash and mold lines before painting. If you don't, you'll someday look back at your first minis and say, "If I had cleaned this up, I wouldn't have spent hours painting it only to have it look like a baboon's butt."
Hobby knives and needle files are a must for metal minis. An emery board just won't get the job done.
There are some great sites out there with painting tutorials and lists of recommended supplies. Google is your friend.

It's been said before, I'll say it again.

http://www.wegotgame.net/jen/main.html
http://hot-lead.org

Reaper also has a starter kit that comes with paint, brushes and a pair of minis and a paint guide. It also comes with a bottle of primer but, personally, I recommend spray primer.


----------



## bekkilyn_rpg (Aug 29, 2003)

I am pretty new to painting myself but will go ahead and post some things which have been helpful to me so far.

First, you definitely want to use primer all over your mini. If you use paint as the first layer, it will just start peeling off whereas primer will stick to the mini and the paint will stick to the primer.

I prefer black primer. White can be a lot harder to completely cover up and can sometimes make a mini look too bright (for my tastes).

I prefer metal and metal will just look better even with a non-professional job whereas with plastic, it has a tendancy to look bad unless you are *really* good at painting. Metal is also sturdier and if you're going to go through all the time and trouble to paint something, paint something of quality that you're going to want to keep and use. Nothing wrong with using plastic of course, but if you like the feel of metal minis, then just go with metal. If you end up making huge painting mistakes, you can either paint over the mistakes or you can just strip the paint off and do it again. It's easier to strip paint off metal than plastic.

I use brush on sealer nowadays because the spray dullcoat sealer came very close to messing up my minis. It was extremely cloudy. I haven't heard anyone else reporting this problem (I was using Citadel sealant and had shaken it briskly for over two minutes before use), but even with using light coats, I ended up having to use a thinner to strip off the sealant and redo. Thank the gods the thinner worked to salvage them and didn't destroy the paint job or those minis would have needed to be stripped and redone completely. Now I use brush on (two coats of gloss and one dull with gloss touchups afterwards where necessary) and the sealer dries as clear as crystal. If for some reason you have trouble with the spray sealer, then brush on sealer might work better for you. It did for me. Either way, I apply one thin coating every 24 hours for three days.

As far as paints go, I like the Citadel brand paints, but find myself using a mixture of Citadel and Anita's all-purpose acrylics from...hmm some craft store like Michaels, but it was another name I can't seem to remember. Since the Citadel paints have these really crappy lids that get stuck, I can't get into most of them without using a sledgehammer on them, so I use the ones I can use and use the other paints for everything else. I refuse to buy more Citadel paints until my gaming store gets the newer ones which have flip-top lids. The Citadel paint itself is great though--very smooth. I haven't found the need to thin the paints too much for normal painting but will keep the brush a bit damp (not wet...use a paper towel or something to soak up the excess) at all times and just make sure there's not too much paint on the brush.


----------



## Stegger (Aug 29, 2003)

Thanks again. I think I am off to a much better start now. I really like some of the links showing pictures on how to go step by step.
If there is any more tricks or things up your sleeves I am listening   
What about my first model? What did you choose, or does it matter at all?


----------



## Someone (Aug 29, 2003)

Just remember: It´s not difficult! Just seems more than it really is. Once you dominate the basic techniques, you´ll start having pretty good results.


----------



## Wombat (Aug 29, 2003)

White primer

Acrylic paints

Sealant

That is my Holy Trinity of painting  

That being said, remember you can paint as detailed as you want.  If you are going for Mass Troop, keep the details to a minimum -- I have a friend who uses just the black primer for his orcs, goblins, etc.  (Black primer does indeed hide the holidays in your paint, but it also makes it damnably hard to paint anything other than Very Dark Colours...)  Player Characters tend to get the most detail.  I can get a blobby pupil in the eye of most 25mm scale minis nowadays, but I have no intention of trying this on my new Faen mini  

Oh, and as one related to a person who is a Painting God, only compare your paint jobs to your previous paint jobs, _not_ to someone who is a (semi-)professional.  You will feel better about yourself later


----------



## Zulithe (Aug 29, 2003)

Wonderful tips everyone 

I have a BOX full of WotC minis that came out when 3E launched. I've been meaning to paint but just didn't know where to start, and didn't have the funds at the time to stock up on paint and other supplies (I know... wasn't it kinda dumb to buy all those minis then? heh oh well, least I have them now!)

I'm looking forward to painting them all, including my Umber Hulk! Sadly I am about to move, so I gotta put that off for a few more weeks


----------



## pogre (Aug 29, 2003)

Buy quality materials - it will make your painting much *easier*, Vallejo paint and Windsor & Newton series 7 brushes.

Vallejo is cheaper and nicer than GW paint and packaged most conveniently. They have over 200 colors to choose from and are available on a lot of places on the web and in stores.

Windsor & Newton brushes are outrageously expensive to buy, but many of mine are five years old or older. There is no finer brush.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Aug 30, 2003)

Step 1 for both plastic and metal - wash the figure with handsoap and an old toothbrush. This step is often forgotten, and often doesn't make any difference, then other times the paint will start peeling off of a bit of mold release left on the figure.

Get a good assortment of brushes, a large (1/4 inch) flat one is good for drybrushing. A 1 or ) for large areas a 000 or 00000 for most normal work, and a 0000000000 for things like eyes and teeth.

Prime with black for figures that are wearing dark colors or a lot of armor. This also works well with furs. Go over any areas that are going to be bright and cover those areas with white paint.

Prime with white if the figure is wearing bright colors or is caucasian and showing a lot of skin. Go over any areas that are going to be metal and paint them black.

On paints I have had very good luck with Americana and Ceramcoat, both are available in craft stores for around $1.00 for a two ounce bottle. (Games Workshop goes for around $2.50 for a half ounce, you do the math.) They also in my humble opinion have better bottles than say GW.

As for the quality of the paint, I make a small but steady amount of money selling painted figures - the cheaper paints work just fine.

Use a seperate pot of water for cleaning any brushes that have been used with metallic paints.Clean your brushes. Don't let paint accumulate at the base of the bristles, this will cause them to spread. Again keep a bar of handsoap, it helps remove the paint, and allows you to shape the brush. If you can find any with lanolin the brush will thank you.

Something I started doing way back when: Put the date you painted the figure on the bottom of the base. Going back and seing how your style has changed over the decades can be both amusing and humbling.

The Auld Grump


----------



## Bran Blackbyrd (Aug 30, 2003)

Stegger said:
			
		

> What about my first model? What did you choose, or does it matter at all?




It doesn't matter, to a certain extent. I wouldn't recommend spending 30+ dollars on a large dragon mini and then trying to make it a masterpiece with no prior mini painting experience. 
The first minis I painted were a set of skeletons. It taught me very quickly how to properly use the drybrush technique. They aren't too hard to paint and they usually don't require a boatload of different colors. There were eight of them and the difference between the quality of the first and the last one is amazing.


----------



## Tewligan (Aug 30, 2003)

pogre said:
			
		

> Vallejo is cheaper and nicer than GW paint and packaged most conveniently. They have over 200 colors to choose from and are available on a lot of places on the web and in stores.



This bears repeating. Vallejo is easily the best paint I've used so far. You don't get the problem with gummed-up cap threads (Citadel, I'm looking at you...), and I just find the paint consistency to be better. The only thing I can think of that people might consider a negative is that they come in a dropper-type container, so you need a palette of some sort to put the paint on. Great paints.


----------



## pogre (Sep 3, 2003)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> This bears repeating. Vallejo is easily the best paint I've used so far. You don't get the problem with gummed-up cap threads (Citadel, I'm looking at you...), and I just find the paint consistency to be better. The only thing I can think of that people might consider a negative is that they come in a dropper-type container, so you need a palette of some sort to put the paint on. Great paints.




And nearly every one of those great sites Cthulhu's Librarian pointed out is going to suggest you thin your paints - therefore the dropper will be a big plus. Just make sure you shake the heck out of them.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 3, 2003)

Expensive "miniature" paints are a waste of money.  Not only are they _not_ better quality, the pots they come in are prone to allowing the paint to dry out quickly and become useless.

I buy all my paints from craft stores -- the acrylic kind like AppleBarrell, Folkard or Americana.  You get a lot more for your money, you have a lot more options, and the packaging is way better.  Not only that, I've always had consistently good results with the paint.  I've also bought fairly cheap brush sets, but I replace them fairly regularly.

Some other advice?  Prime the minis first.  Black is my favorite color, since if you miss any small areas, you don't really notice them.  You often have to re-undercoat lighter areas with white if you do, though.

After you paint a fairly large area with a certain color, get a darker color and thin the paint with water considerably.  With a larger brush, apply the thinned paint and let it flow into the cracks, crevices and detail of the mini.  Let it dry.  This will create the illusion of shadow.  Go back lightly over the area with the main color again to get the true color back, but make sure and leave the darker shadows in the recesses of the mini.  Go back again, even more lightly, with a lighter version of the main color to get highlights.

Use static grass, flock or "railroad ballast" to give the base of your mini some texture and color.  A mini looks unfinished without the base done as well.

If you're going to use the mini for play, be sure and spray it with some kind of clear coat that will protect the paint from chipping and flaking; although a good coat of primer will help alleviate a lot of that as well.

Be sure and have a very fine brush -- 00 or smaller -- for fine detail like eyes, jewelry, tattoos, etc.

Anything else?  I paint a fair amount, and although it can get tedious if I do too much at once, I've been at it for several years.  I'm hardly competition winning in quality, but I've got the best looking minis around locally, for what it's worth.

I don't really use them for D&D though -- I play Blood Bowl, and I also just collect minis because I like'em.


----------



## pogre (Sep 3, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Expensive "miniature" paints are a waste of money.  Not only are they _not_ better quality, the pots they come in are prone to allowing the paint to dry out quickly and become useless.




Gosh I wish this were true!

I guess we will have to just disagree. 

_Expensive_ paint and _expensive_ brushes are worth it and they certainly are better quality. I cannot believe anyone who has tried Vallejo brushes and Windsor & Newton brushes would disagree. I have never had a Vallejo "pot" dry up and I have owned some for at least three years. I am even arguing they make painting easier and more enjoyable, because you will achieve nicer results more quickly.

By all means experiment with paints and use what makes sense for you - I bet you become a Vallejo customer


----------



## Wombat (Sep 3, 2003)

I'm with Joshua on this one.

A small pot of _Fill In The Name Designer Modelling Paint_ often costs more than a whole tube of good ol' Liquitex (and is _always_ more expensive ounce for ounce!) and the quality is no better.  Really.  I have talked to many non-miniature artists and miniature painters both -- in this cast you _don't_ get what you pay for.  

Now brushes can be another matter entirely.  There are many poor quality brushes out there.  Don't bother.  Plastic, acrylic and the like "hair" are not as good as reliable camel hair brushes.  There are many manufacturers of these, but go for real hair brushes.  It _is_ worth the difference.

But ultimately if you are really interested in painting, get thee to a craft store or a artists shop instead of a gaming store.  More variety, better quality, and usually a lower price.  The up-front outlay may be a bit higher, but in the long run you will save yourself money and can deal with paints that more readily mix.

Honestly.

I've been painting since about 1972 -- including the college days when I really had to watch the shekels!  Get acrylic, get hair brushes, buy from a craft and/or art store.  It will be worth it.


----------



## Piratecat (Sep 3, 2003)

I'll slide this over to the miniatures forum!


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Sep 3, 2003)

I agree with needing good brushes. A brush that loses its shape is useless.

The specially formulated miniature paints however are generally not any better than Americana or Ceramcoat. (I would avoid Apple Barrel and Folk Art however, they have poor pigment saturation, and Apple Barrel in particular is well, rather particulate.)

There are some colors that are worth getting as figure paints. Many metals in particular are unavailable otherwise, and until I tried Americana craft paints I would purchase figure paints for any greens. Reds are another problem color.

And yes, the bottles that craft paints come in are better for storing your colors than the pots GW and Polly S come in. Valejo paints on the other hand come in very nice pots, and these will keep very nicely.

For a palette may I recommend going to Wendys and ordering a Taco Salad? The lid makes a very nice palette, and you get to eat the salad!

For thinning paints there are two choices other than water that work well. If you need deep color saturation try using an ink of the same color as the paint you are thinning down. By using a deeper color you can also use this for shading. The problem is the mixture tends to dry very quickly compared to using water. And Future floor wax also works well, and can extend the life of your paints to boot. Future can also be used on a finished miniature on any high gloss areas like teeth and eyes.

The Auld Grump


----------



## pogre (Sep 3, 2003)

One other thing - 

If you can talk an experienced painter into sitting down with you for a session of two or painting you can really learn some things quickly. Even an adequate painter will have some ideas on how to dry brush, layer painting, blending, and so on. Listen to their ideas and develop your own style.

edit: who wants to bet PC hit the wrong button


----------



## tetsujin28 (Sep 3, 2003)

There is no subsitute for high-quality paints and brushes. I like Vallejo paint (by far the best), and Windsor and Newton brushes.

If you don't like the effect that water has while thinning your paints (reduces contrast and thins pigment), you might want to try flow release, which makes paint more "slippery" without fading the colour.

My favourite primer is made by Floquil. It's no longer available in the States. Primer is not really paint, so just about any will do -- I recommend Krylon for its durability and low cost. The debate of white vs. grey vs. black primer goes on forever. Me, I don't like grey. White is good if the figure isn't "carrying" too many metal objects (armour, weapons, etc.). Black is good for heavily-armoured figures, although you will tend to get darker flesh tones from going over the black. Some folks like to give black-primered figs a _light_ dry-brush of white, to make details easier to see.

I've used a lot of inks from various companies. GW ones tend to be a little dark -- I usually thin them with water before applying. Windsor and Newton inks (used traditionally by comic book colourists before computers came along) are _intense_, stain everything, and make the most beautiful colours imaginable, provided your colour theory is solid. They are not very light-fast, so I would recommend storing figs you use W&N inks on in a miniatures case with a lid, rather than in a glass case in your living room.


----------



## Bloodsparrow (Sep 3, 2003)

Wow, a lot of great info about materials.  So I guess I'll concentrate on technique.

My first model was a Barbarian that I won from a "name that monster" contest at a Game Keeper. (It was a beholder)

He turned out really really well, possibly because I had a lot of experience painting props and sets. (Drama Geek... That's me.)

I didn't use most of the techniques I list below, mostly because I didn't know about them.  Instead, I got light and shadow by using my darkest shade as the primer then drybrushing the base and the highlights...

It turned out very well, better then I thought it would, but he has a ... somehow... very stylized look to him... As opposed to most of my minis now, which are more... Organic.

I think.

Anyway... On to my advice about actually painting a mini.

Stages of painting...

Prime: Completely coat the mini with one base color of paint.  Keep in mind that, even though this coat gets covered, it will affect the final outcome of the mini.  A white primer turns out a very bright and "upbeat" looking figure.  Black tends to give a "darker" feel.  A green base will make the figure look vaguely "sickly".  Somewhere, I have three identical minis, painted identically, except for the base coat... I'll see if I can find them and post a picture later.  Experiment with different color primers.  (Spray primers are good, but you usually only find them in white, grey, and black.)

Base: Paint parts of the mini the color you want them to be.  Paint the fleshy parts flesh, paint the clothing, weapons, armor, and what-have-you whatever colors you want them to be.

Highlight (aka-Drybrush):  Take the colors you used for the bases, lighten them with white.  Dip your brush in this lighter shade, then tap it on a paper towel, or whatever, to get most of the paint off.  Lightly brush the mini so the raised places get just a trace if the highlight.

"Ink": Take the colors you used for the bases, darken them up a bit.  Usually with black, but try using other colors as well.  Then add a good amount of water to the paint so that it's, well, like ink.  Gently brush the ink onto the mini.  As the water evaporates, the paint will concentrate into the deeper parts of the mini, giving a great sense of depth.

Seal:  Games Workshop sells a good, matte, spray seal.  This helps keep the paint from chipping or rubbing off.  This step is totally optional, but it helps keep your minis nice.  I have also used spray seal that is sold at art stores for "fixing" pastels and charcoal to good effect... However, even though it looks matte on paper, it tends to be rather glossy on minis... This can ruin the affect you've been working so hard for.

It really doesn't take that much more effort to paint like this... And sometimes, I look at one of my minis and it doesn't really look to me like I've done this... But boy oh boy... Can I tell when these steps HAVEN'T been done. 

More later...


----------



## orbitalfreak (Sep 3, 2003)

pogre said:
			
		

> edit: who wants to bet PC hit the wrong button




Heh, yeah.  I was quite curious when I logged on and saw a minis painting thread _stickied_ to the top of General Discussion!  The Art/Mini/Map forum, I could understand, but not General. 

To make me somewhat useful in this thread, "Practice, practice, practice."  "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."  And any other saying like that, listen to them.  There's a reason those phrases have been around a long time, so don't just ignore them.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 3, 2003)

pogre said:
			
		

> Gosh I wish this were true!
> 
> I guess we will have to just disagree.
> 
> ...



I've never used Vallejo, but I've used plenty of other miniatures paints, and have not at all been impressed with them.

Now, about craft acrylics -- it is true that some brands are better than others.  Ceramcoat and Americana, I've found to be the best, AppleBarrell probably the worst.  But I've had good luck with all the brands from time to time.  Except the miniatures paints I used to use!  I also prefer not to get expensive brushes, because drybrushing and other miniature painting techniques tend to be rough on them anyway.  I'd rather replace my brushes once or twice a year than buy really expensive ones.  And in practice, I'm not finding I replace them that often.  Of course, I'm not painting as frequently as I used to either...

I'd also echo the practice refrain -- the best technical knowledge in the world will only get you so far.  You've got to get out there and paint a big handful of minis before you get to the point that you consider yourself really good.  If you really like your minis, you might want to investigate paint stripping techniques next, so you can repaint them after you've got some experience!


----------



## NewJeffCT (Sep 3, 2003)

Well, a lot of good advice, and links to some of the great painters out there and their tutorials.  (The person that gave links to "hot lead" and "we got game/jen" gave links to two of the best mini painters in the world, IMO...)

But, a little piece of advice when priming: make sure the area is well ventilated, but also make sure you allow for a longer time for the primer to dry if it is humid.  You can start painting within 60 minutes or so of priming, but a good bit of advice is to prime once and let the primer dry overnight.  Then, put on a second coat of primer the next day and let it sit overnight again.  (and, a way to take advantage of both white and black primer is to first prime in black and then a light coat in white the next day)  You can prime a miniature in a few minutes with a spray primer (a minute or two to shake the can vigourously, a few seconds to coat the mini, then a few seconds to make sure you clean the nozzle)

And, make sure you you a flat sealer (or matte or clear coat).  Any sort of gloss or semi-gloss sealer/finish will give the miniature an unearthly shine to it.  A shining miniature isn't bad if you have a knight in shining armor... but, you don't want a shiny rogue or wizard most of the time, I'd guess.


----------



## Piratecat (Sep 3, 2003)

Sigh... I tried to move this just as the boards slowed down, and first it got accidentally closed. I managed to open it before everything stopped dead in the water, but... stickied?    

Heh - NOW I'll slide it over to the right forum, and my apologies.


----------



## NewJeffCT (Sep 3, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Sigh... I tried to move this just as the boards slowed down, and first it got accidentally closed. I managed to open it before everything stopped dead in the water, but... stickied?
> 
> Heh - NOW I'll slide it over to the right forum, and my apologies.




By the way, forgive my ignorance, but what does it mean if something is "stickied"?


----------



## pogre (Sep 3, 2003)

NewJeffCT said:
			
		

> And, make sure you you a flat sealer (or matte or clear coat).  Any sort of gloss or semi-gloss sealer/finish will give the miniature an unearthly shine to it.  A shining miniature isn't bad if you have a knight in shining armor... but, you don't want a shiny rogue or wizard most of the time, I'd guess.




I like to start with a coat of gloss to give a little more protection - I then follow this with three to four coats of model master flat. Looks completely matte and natural usually.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 3, 2003)

I agree -- glossy coats protect better, even though they look worse.  A glossy coat, with a matte coat on top of it, is usually the best route.


----------



## KnowTheToe (Sep 3, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I agree -- glossy coats protect better, even though they look worse.  A glossy coat, with a matte coat on top of it, is usually the best route.




Darn straight it is.  If you are making a display piece just skip the glossy because it does seem to mar some of the detail even whne covered.


----------



## KnowTheToe (Sep 3, 2003)

I don't usually use the gloss but I use 8-10 layers of the dull coat.  I spray a layer after I am done painting each section of the mini.  This allows me to whipe hair color paint off of the face (or anything else) without marring the face by using a clean wet brush.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Sep 4, 2003)

Geez, you guys use a _lot_ of coat! I've never used more than one layer, myself.

I tend to use semi-gloss. A neat and subtle trick is to use matte finish, and then hand-paint gloss over things that should be shiny, like magic weapons, black leather, etc.

Coat brands: doesn't seem to matter much. Again, I use Krylon, due to its price and even coating.

GW makes a great white paint-on primer called, IIRC, Smelly Primer. It goes on thin, it's easy to get a complete coat, and dries within 15 minutes or so. It also doesn't require ventilation and a lot of room, like spray primers do.


----------



## Bloodsparrow (Sep 4, 2003)

I'm actually rather glad PC hit that wrong button.  I wouldn't have thought to come to this part of the board otherwise... 



			
				orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> To make me somewhat useful in this thread, "Practice, practice, practice."  "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."  And any other saying like that, listen to them.  There's a reason those phrases have been around a long time, so don't just ignore them.




Can't stress that one enough. 

You don't even need to buy lots and lots of minis for that either.  Somebody once told me that he would clean paint off of minis by dropping them in a cup of Mr. Clean or Pinesol...

Never tried that myself... And I'm not sure what that would do, if anything, to a plasic mini...

Has anybody done that?


----------



## KnowTheToe (Sep 4, 2003)

Bloodsparrow said:
			
		

> I'm actually rather glad PC hit that wrong button.  I wouldn't have thought to come to this part of the board otherwise...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pinesol works great


----------



## tetsujin28 (Sep 4, 2003)

Does it take off primer, as well? I've got some minis that I botched when I first started, and it'd be nice to repaint them.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 5, 2003)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Does it take off primer, as well? I've got some minis that I botched when I first started, and it'd be nice to repaint them.




Oh yeah. Pinesol will take anything off minis. I just stripped a whole bunch of minis I originally painted 15 years ago with oil based model paints. These were BAD paint jobs, very thick, and multiple coats of each color. I dropped them in a 50/50 mix of Pinesol/water, let them sit for 2 or 3 days, scrubbed them with a toothbrush, let sit for another day or two, scrubbed again, and they are now waiting to be repainted. I'll try to find the links for a great set of instructions for stripping minis, and post them later tonight or tomorrow if I can find them. 

Don't know how Pinesol reacts with plastic minis. I've only used it on metal.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 5, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Don't know how Pinesol reacts with plastic minis. I've only used it on metal.




I don't have any experience myself, but I've heard from Warhammer players in my group that if you let plastic mini's soak more than a day or so, they tend to soften.  I'd be careful with them...


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 5, 2003)

Found the articles I was talking about a few posts up, about stripping paint with Pinesol. 

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/games/miniatures/painting-faq/
This one is the Miniatures Painting Guide and FAQ. A great resource on all sorts of mini painting questions, I've got it printed out and use it as a reference all the time. Section 6 is the section on stripping paint. 

http://www.paintingclinic.com/clinic/clinic.htm
This one is for Doctor Faust's Painting Clinic, specifically "The Clinic" section. On the left hand side, go down about 1/2 way, and find the section "Removing Paint." There are a couple articles here on stripping paint, using a variety of solvants, including Pinesol and Brake Fluid. I can't testify about brake fluid, but I've used Pinesol with excellent results.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Sep 5, 2003)

I can't recommend brake fluid. It's nasty stuff, and eats nearly anything.


----------



## pogre (Sep 19, 2003)

Dead Horse prepare for thy beating!  

So I posed the question about craft paints versus model paints in a couple of miniature painting forums and here's one answer I received:



> Actually, the difference between fine paints (particularly Vajello, Golden, etc) is the amount of pigment, binder and the vehicle.
> 
> Essentially, there are many types of paints available, each with different amounts of binders(to make it stick), pigments(to give it color) and the vehicle that carries the binders and pigments.  Fine paints such as Golden, Vajello, Winsor & Newton etc will always cost more because more pigment is used.  Pigment is costly.  With paint, you pay for what you get...like a good pair of shoes.
> 
> Craft paints are on the lower end when it comes to the amount of pigment.  They were designed with crafts in mind.  They're thinner, cheaper and readily available.  I often use various types of craft paints for various types of bases. Also, paints made for children are a step under these in the amount of pigment, binder, and vehicle.




Then I e-mailed some of the model paint manufaturers. Naturally they are biased, but their responses were remarkably similar to the above:

From the folks at Reaper - 


> Really, it's about cost. Fine pigments cost more money, but are worth it when working with scale models.




From a Vallejo distributor -


> Look, don't take my word for it grab a brush and try this experiment. Take some craft paint and some of our paint [vallejo] and load a pair of brushes equally. Make sure both paints are watered down the same amount. Now, run the brushes across a piece of glass or tile. Now you tell me which one is higher quality paint?




Games Workshop U.S. sent me a catalogue and no response  

I tried some craft paint again and I think it may have some uses, but I do think you get what you pay for in the end.


----------



## farscapesg1 (Nov 12, 2003)

I just found this thread and now I am really interested in craft paints.  I have tried a couple colors and haven't seen a big difference from the old Ral Partha paints that I still have around.

Pogre,

I'm just curious.  All the responses that you recieved came from one side.  Did you also email or recieve responses from common craft paint companies (Apple Barrel, Americana, etc.)?


----------



## satori01 (Nov 12, 2003)

Has anyone tried Adiken's Adikolor paints?  It is a a relatively new paint line out.

I will back Pogre up on the paint issue, with the caveat of there is cetainly a relative degree of Marginal Utility concerning quality paints.

There is a big difference in feel between even reaper paints and say the Folk Art paints one can pick up at Michaels.  

In the begining I would say cost and quantity trump quality paint, I do reccomend buying some nice brushes, the right brush makes all the difference.  I would in fact buy 2 sets identical brushes, maybe it was just me, but I was quite cruel to my first set when learning how to paint.  Expect to sacrifice some supplies to minature gods.


----------



## ledded (Nov 13, 2003)

pogre said:
			
		

> Buy quality materials - it will make your painting much *easier*, Vallejo paint and Windsor & Newton series 7 brushes.
> 
> Vallejo is cheaper and nicer than GW paint and packaged most conveniently. They have over 200 colors to choose from and are available on a lot of places on the web and in stores.
> 
> Windsor & Newton brushes are outrageously expensive to buy, but many of mine are five years old or older. There is no finer brush.




I have to agree here with pogre.  I've went through numerous brushes while the one Windsor I own is still ticking, though I take care of it like it's made of glass because it was so darn expensive.

And Vallejo paints are the best I've used so far.  You can get away with the 0.50 cent craft paints, but they are really too thick and have too little pigment to do really nice work.  I use 'em for terrain work, but for minis Vallejo I've found to be my favorite.  It comes in a very convenient eye-dropper bottle that doesnt leak or spew if it's knocked over accidentally, it's not too thick, and it has a considerable amount of finer pigment than many others (so it will paint faster, thinner, and look better).  GW/Citadel are decent paints, but the old bottle styles are very frustrating after using them for a while, and they are overpriced.  Reaper paints are pretty good, and a much better buy (you get more paint for less money and it's of a comparable quality to the GW stuff).

The vallejo stuff is just very good for the price, the bottles are a joy to work with, and they have an insane amount of color selection (plus some different starter kits to help you figure out what you might need).


----------



## pogre (Nov 14, 2003)

farscapesg1 said:
			
		

> Pogre,
> 
> I'm just curious.  All the responses that you recieved came from one side.  Did you also email or recieve responses from common craft paint companies (Apple Barrel, Americana, etc.)?




Completely one-sided. I encourage you to try the test the Vallejo distributor challenged me to. If you find a brand of craft paint you like a lot - don't hold back - let us know. I have come off as a bit snobby on this thread at times, but I want you to know I am totally open to trying new products. 

Well, maybe not totally open as I just bought the ENTIRE Vallejo line.  

I started messing with some oils for painting faces. So far my acrylic stuff looks a lot better. Military model painters swear by oils, but I think they come from an era when decent acrylics were not available. The hassle and learning curve probably are not worth it for me.

For you Vallejo enthusiasts here is a web article by Mario Fuentes I found helpful. 

Take care and enjoy your painting!


----------

