# Star Wars d20: Consular vs. Guardian



## Menexenus (Mar 31, 2005)

Hi everyone.  I just recently decided to start a Star Wars d20 game using the Wizards of the Coast Revised Edition rules.  Keep in mind, my players and I are used to D&D.  This may help you answer our questions.

Today I was helping one of the players with Character creation.  And he asked a question I couldn't answer:  Why would anyone ever pick a Jedi Consular?  My player pointed out that Guardians have better vitality points and a better base attack progression.  Saves are not that different.  The feat progression (at least through 4th level) is identical between the 2 classes.  Consulars do get access to a few extra mundane skills than Guardians, but let's face it: those skill points are probably going to end up going into Force skills, not mundane skills.  Both classes get access to the same Force skills (which was surprising to me).  And the differences between the classes' defense and reputation bonuses are very minor and seem to cancel each other out.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that Consulars get above Guardians are 2 measly skill points per level.  That benefit does not seem to be worth the comparative loss of vitality points and base attack bonus.  I realize that at 5th level a 2 point per level bonus translates into a difference of 16 skill points, but still...

Have I missed something?  Are the Consular and Guardian classes balanced?

P.S.  Sorry if this question has been beaten to death.  That's what happens when you're a newbie like me: you ask the same questions everyone has already asked.  But if you can spare the time, I'd still appreciate your perspective.  Thanks.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 31, 2005)

Guardians don't make very good diplomats. They're strong with combat, and that really is about it. Consulars are the less combat focussed Jedi, and that extra 2 skill points is VERY good when you have to spend them between both Force Skills and regular skills. One cannot survive on Force Skills alone.

They are very balanced with each other, but they are also very different approaches. If your players want to play Jedi for the lightsaber, they aren't going to see anything good about the Consular. Think of it like the relationship between the Noble and the Soldier. Essentially, the Consular is the Jedi Noble, with the Guardian being the Jedi Soldier.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Mar 31, 2005)

I found the differences to be a little bland myself, but I'm coming in from the position that I'd like to run a jedi academy game in the Old Republic, and the jedi classes seem very similar.

But, in the end, skill points and character builds will make them quite different.  A Consular character will probably work to try and get a higher int for more skill points ... if you think of it from an Int standpoint, 2 points per level is an effective +4 Int in terms of skill points.  Added to that the Consular probably having a higher Int and he'll end up with more skills.

--fje


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 31, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I found the differences to be a little bland myself, but I'm coming in from the position that I'd like to run a jedi academy game in the Old Republic, and the jedi classes seem very similar.




I'm running a 6 player Tales of the Jedi era game right here on ENWorld, with a good mix of both Consulars and Guardians. The differences aren't bland at all...and besides, if one builds a Jedi based soley on stats, the class isn't the problem.


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## Menexenus (Mar 31, 2005)

So, as you all know, I'm concerned about the Balance between Consulars and Guardians.  I could give Consulars an extra skill point or 2 per level.  But I'm more inclined to simply restrict Guardians from taking certain Force Skills.  That seems to fit well with the fact that Guardians get fewer mundane skills than Consulars.  Why shouldn't they also have access to fewer Force skills?  After all, they are focusing on combat rather than the finer points of wielding the Force.

   So first, I'm wondering if anyone has tried either of these tweaks (i.e., giving Consulars more skill points and/or restricting Guardians from some Force skills).  If you did, please let me know how they went.  If you have other suggestions of successful tweaks you've tried, I'd be curiuos to hear about those as well.

Thanks!


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## Eagle of the Star (Apr 13, 2005)

I don't think the Consular class is weaker at all.  Speaking as an inveterate powergamer (and one who plays with other powergamers), the Consular class can do stuff that a Guardian could never dream of.   
Not only are there two extra skill points, but there are more class skills (and these become very important when qualifying for some of the better Jedi prestige classes -- I once ran a Miraluka consular who qualified for Jedi Investigator in only a couple levels).  Also the saves are different, and in a Jedi-themed campaign the stronger Will save can be critical.
All you really lose are base attack and lightsaber damage -- so  play a guardian if you define Jedi as lightsaber-wielding -- play a consular otherwise.


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## Odhanan (May 12, 2005)

> The feat progression (at least through 4th level) is identical between the 2 classes. Consulars do get access to a few extra mundane skills than Guardians, but let's face it: those skill points are probably going to end up going into Force skills, not mundane skills.




That's precisely it. Consulars are better with Force Powers and possibly better with skills because they have more skill points and more skills. When you see the result at higher level, and when you think about the possibilities in terms of multiclassing (like the Miraluka investigator example just above) you begin to wonder why would anyone choose a _guardian_!

I hapen to play a human Jedi guardian because my character concept is a lightsaber master (with Jedi Weapon Master and Master Duelist levels). I also have a Kel Dor Jedi Investigator... with levels of Consular. It's exactly like Eagle says. For everything else than lightsaber, the Consular is better.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (May 12, 2005)

Heh.  On first glance, I think everybody would say Guardian is better.  

I say this because I have 7 people who want to join my SWRPG game.  6 who want to play Jedi.  4 who want to play Guardians.

1 Droid
1 Consular
1 Sentinel (Possibly changing to Guardian, though)
4 Guardians

Oi.  

--fje


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## The_Gneech (May 12, 2005)

Jedi Guardians make great lightsaber duelists ... but they aren't much good for anything else. Before you scoff as "a mere 2 skill points per level" consider also that a Jedi Counsular will probably have a higher Int (giving them still more skill points), and quite possibly a higher Wis and Cha (giving them better Force skill bonuses overall).

I have an 8th level Jedi Guardian, who is a terror with a lightsaber and fairly handy with Move Object ... and that's it. He can't do the mind trick worth beans, and he certainly can't do things like Dissipate Energy, Farseeing, etc. If I had to rebuild this character, knowing what I know now, I might very well make him a Counsular instead so that he was more well-rounded. I've got plenty of BAB, I'd gladly trade some for a few skill points at this stage. (Alas, you can't multiclass between Guardian and Counsular, or I'd do that!)

If you want access to cool powers beyond cutting things up, a Jedi Counsular is a lot more useful.

   -The Gneech


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## Viktyr Gehrig (May 12, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I say this because I have 7 people who want to join my SWRPG game.  6 who want to play Jedi.  4 who want to play Guardians.




It doesn't help that there is a grand total of one major-character Consular in the movies; all of the other Jedi are Guardians.


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## Dagger75 (May 12, 2005)

Those 2 skill points are worth it and make a big difference.  The bonus feats are very useful.  The thing I noticed is a jedi who tries do everything will usally be a crappy jedi at higher level when it comes to the force.

 The consular in my game is an expert at move object, and freindship and mind control stuff.
The gaurdian used all his points to raise battle sense and enhance stats type of thing.  I have seen a pretty big difference in play.


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## kenobi65 (May 12, 2005)

The_Gneech said:
			
		

> Jedi Guardians make great lightsaber duelists ... but they aren't much good for anything else.




I'd concur.  In the Living Force group I play in, we've got two 11th-level Jedi: a Guardian 9 / Master 2, and a Consular 7 / Investigator 2 / Master 2.

The Guardian is a terror in combat.  Most of his skill points, and all of his feats, went to combat builds.  Thus, outside of combat, he's limited...he's good at Move Object, and OK at Affect Mind; he can do a little Heal Another, a little Computer Use, but that's about it.  (He's even legendary for his pathetic Spot score).

The Consular isn't too far behind the Guardian in combat (though clearly a notch under)...but he's also excellent at Move Object, Affect Mind, Heal Another, Diplomacy, Computer Use, and several Knowledge skills.  And, the player of the Consular has pointed out that, if he had really wanted to, he could have maxed out the combat stuff, and been pretty darn close to as good as the Guardian in combat (but, he wanted to be more well-rounded).

So, it comes to this: if your player wants an ultimate combat monkey, go Guardian.  If he wants to be able to contribute outside of combat, go Consular.


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## Neo (May 12, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...and besides, if one builds a Jedi based soley on stats, the class isn't the problem.




Couldn't have put it better myself


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## Khorod (May 12, 2005)

The argument that character builds can differentiate the two classes is specious.  Character build can differentiate two characters of the same class.

I don't think there's a problem here, but I do think it would be interesting if they were more differentiated.

If you still think the Consular is underbalanced, take away the last Force Training feat from the Guardian.  He now has to spend an extra feat to get all the force powers.  And for a combat-focused Guardian, that feat might not be worth it.


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## Nifft (May 12, 2005)

Skill points, man. I'm a power gamer and the Consular makes me droooooooool. 

 -- N


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## Victim (May 13, 2005)

Consulars are in theory better with force stuff.  However, the Guardian's extra VP allow him to use force powers more.  Especially if those "metamagic" feats are being used.  And, at higher levels, characters will probably be hitting the maximum DCs on force skills, allowing them to branch out more.


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## Khorod (May 13, 2005)

That Vitality thing is the big flaw with Vitality-powered force stuff.


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## Ranger REG (May 13, 2005)

Khorod said:
			
		

> That Vitality thing is the big flaw with Vitality-powered force stuff.



I dunno. At least it teaches you to use your powers wisely (as needed), and not do it all willy-nilly.


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## Khorod (May 13, 2005)

Kinda missed my point.  I really like Vitality Powered Magic.  Its one of my current projects.

I was referring to the strangeness that is the spellcaster being vitality powered and not being the premier Vitality-Collector in the game.  It is strange that a multi-class with Soldier can help a Jedi use his powers longer than a Jedi level.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 13, 2005)

Khorod said:
			
		

> Kinda missed my point.  I really like Vitality Powered Magic.  Its one of my current projects.
> 
> I was referring to the strangeness that is the spellcaster being vitality powered and not being the premier Vitality-Collector in the game.  It is strange that a multi-class with Soldier can help a Jedi use his powers longer than a Jedi level.



 Except since the Force Skills aren't Class Skills for Soldiers, they aren't actually better with them, and can only use them more. Its still better to just go straight Jedi.


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## The_Gneech (May 13, 2005)

Khorod said:
			
		

> Kinda missed my point.  I really like Vitality Powered Magic.  Its one of my current projects.
> 
> I was referring to the strangeness that is the spellcaster being vitality powered and not being the premier Vitality-Collector in the game.  It is strange that a multi-class with Soldier can help a Jedi use his powers longer than a Jedi level.




It does cause a brief moment of blinking at first, but it's extremely important from a game balance perspective. If the Jedi characters got all of their Force powers _plus_ a bucket of VP on the side, then other classes would be completely superfluous. Players would feel punished for playing a Soldier (for instance) if a Jedi Guardian got all of their combat abilities plus the Force as well without some kind of tradeoff.

Think of VP as "story favor points" and it makes a little more sense ... the Soldier's story favor is that he can wade into combat and take a ton of punishment, while the Jedi's story favor is that he can toss battledroids around the room with his mind. 

   -TG


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## Ranger REG (May 14, 2005)

Khorod said:
			
		

> Kinda missed my point.  I really like Vitality Powered Magic.  Its one of my current projects.
> 
> I was referring to the strangeness that is the spellcaster being vitality powered and not being the premier Vitality-Collector in the game.  It is strange that a multi-class with Soldier can help a Jedi use his powers longer than a Jedi level.



That's because Vitality is used more than just activating powers. For the soldiers, it keeps them in the battlefield longer.

What you can do is reduce VP cost to activate, either as a feat or class feature.


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## Plane Sailing (May 16, 2005)

The more I think about it, the more I think that consular and guardian is a false division, and they should just have had 'jedi' as a class.

That said, in the current SW game I'm in there were 2 guardians and 2 consulars. The consulars used their extra skill points for more force skills in this case.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (May 16, 2005)

If I'd have had my druthers, it would have been a false division for my game.  I was planning on stripping out all of the various Jedi class abilities and making them talent trees for Grim Tales.  In the end I decided that, since I have a GT home-brew game already running and may be starting another, that the ability to use all the pregenerated baddies and the like for SWRPG that were already out there would make it worth my while to put up with what I already had instead of trying to balance a bunch of stuff by hand.

I also thought about running things with the old WEG system, which is classless, but I couldn't get access to enough OOP material fast enough.  

--fje


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## Khorod (May 17, 2005)

While you may as well collapse them, the problem is they are not differentiated enough.  I'd go KotOR style, with Jedi Guardian (Full BAB, low skills), Jedi Sentinel (Medium BAB, Good Skills), and Jedi Consular (Poor BAB, Medium-Good Skills, More Force Powers/feats).


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 17, 2005)

Khorod said:
			
		

> While you may as well collapse them, the problem is they are not differentiated enough.  I'd go KotOR style, with Jedi Guardian (Full BAB, low skills), Jedi Sentinel (Medium BAB, Good Skills), and Jedi Consular (Poor BAB, Medium-Good Skills, More Force Powers/feats).




You forgot the more feats combative feats for the Guardian.


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## MetalBard (May 17, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I dunno. At least it teaches you to use your powers wisely (as needed), and not do it all willy-nilly.




My problem with this has been that a Jedi Guardian has more "force fuel" than a Conselor does.  It makes sense to me when comparing Jedi to non-Jedi, but when comparing Consulars to Guardians, the lack of VP makes Consulars fall flat in my opinion.

I just wish they would have found a different way of doing this to allow the specialization to be more clearly delineated between the Consular and the Guardian.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 17, 2005)

MetalBard said:
			
		

> My problem with this has been that a Jedi Guardian has more "force fuel" than a Conselor does.




I agree, I see this as more of an issue to do with vitality for force skills than anything else…


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## MetalBard (May 17, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I agree, I see this as more of an issue to do with vitality for force skills than anything else…




For me, it really ruined the Star Wars d20 experience.  I wasn't all that impressed by WEG's version, so I'm torn everytime I have the urge to do some Star Wars rpging.  Sometimes I think Mutants & Masterminds is a better fit, rules-wise.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 17, 2005)

MetalBard said:
			
		

> Sometimes I think Mutants & Masterminds is a better fit, rules-wise.




I've heard that... I know alot of people have looked at Blue Rose also.  

(I think that the KotoR game is on the right track with both vitality and then the force powers being separate but not at the same time... not.  Jedi are just to dangerous/powerful in those games.)


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## Khorod (May 17, 2005)

Its not too powerful, it is exactly as powerful as its supposed to be 
Power balance is irrelevant outside of multi-player RPGs where people want to do different things.  The KotOR games model Jedi power levels relative to other people fairly cleanly.


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## Ranger REG (May 17, 2005)

MetalBard said:
			
		

> My problem with this has been that a Jedi Guardian has more "force fuel" than a Conselor does.  It makes sense to me when comparing Jedi to non-Jedi, but when comparing Consulars to Guardians, the lack of VP makes Consulars fall flat in my opinion.



Of that I agree. Both JG and JC should have the same vitality die (I recommend d8). Only their BAB and Class Defense Bonus should differ, since JG are more militant and JC are more contemplative.

I also think skill allotment should be more beneficial to JC than to JG because of the focus of their training. Throw in the ability to reduce vitality cost per power activation, and JC can be as potent as JG but in other area.


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