# Do sleeping characters get saving throws?



## ForceUser (Aug 22, 2002)

While thinking up rat bastard DM tactics, I came upon a quandry: certain situations result in a saving throw, such as being caught in the blast of a _fireball_. The characters get a Reflex save to dodge out of the way. Simple enough. But what if a character is fast asleep? What if a sneaky spellcaster steals upon him in the night and drops that _fireball_ on him? Being totally non-cognizant and unaware of any threat, does the sleeping character still get a save?

My DM's instinct leans toward no saving throw allowed because the character is not only unaware of any danger, he's unaware of anything! Certainly a rat bastard tactic and surely an unpopular one with players if I chose to go this route. Still, I'm hesitant because I want to be fair. I'm not looking for house rules, just precedent. Does anyone know what the "official" way to resolve this is? To save or not to save...that is the question.


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

It depends.  Some people would say no reflex save when you are completely unaware and helpless (I consider being asleep helpless) while others would.  Me, I personally would give them a chance to hear the spell and wake up.  If they succeed they get a save, if they don't (and don't have some interesting magical items) then no save.  The reason I go this route is because it states that if you were helpless or unable to move then you are denied a Reflex save (look up the info on Evasion).

As for being a rat bastard DM - don't they have people on watch?  You might get away with it once or twice, but after that the PCs should be prepared.

I would give fortitude and will saves when asleep, though maybe with penalties.

IceBear


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## Dr_Rictus (Aug 22, 2002)

Sleeping characters are helpless (see the condition summary section of the DMG), so their Dexterity is treated as if it were 0.  Aside from that, and the resulting change of their Dex modifier to reflex saves to -5, I know of no other factors affecting a sleeping character's saving throws.


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

From the SRD:



> If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.
> 
> As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.
> 
> ...




It is on the 2nd paragraph that I base my decision that sleeping characters wouldn't get a Reflex Save (as I consider the sleeping character "bound" unless he should become aware of the danger).  Again, I would give a chance to wake up, and if it was going to cause a lot of death I might allow the Save with the -5 penalty just to reflex them instinctively waking and diving for cover at the last moment.

IceBear


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## TiQuinn (Aug 22, 2002)

If you don't give a save while a character is asleep, then consider this scenario:  The invisible rogue/wizard sneaks up on the orc guards, who are lazily leaning against their halberds looking bored.  The rogue/wizard drops a silenced fireball right into their laps.  I suppose they wouldn't get Reflex saves either.


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## AuraSeer (Aug 22, 2002)

For natural sleep, I think I'd allow the character a Reflex save, but with a hefty penalty (at least -10). If he succeeds, he heard or felt the _Fireball_ going off, and reflexively flung himself out of the way just in the nick of time.

Magical sleep is a different story. If the character won't wake up when somebody grabs him to slit his throat, he won't wake up in time to dodge a magical attack.

Either way, he's sure to be awake after the spell goes off.


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## Pax (Aug 22, 2002)

One exception -- Monks.  IIRC, they get their saves -- and their DEX and WIS bonusses to AC -- even when asleep or unconscious.


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

I would in that case, but with a penalty.  Why?  Because the guards aren't asleep and are moving (no more than if the guards were completely awake when the spell was cast at them - you don't have to be aware of the spell to get a Reflex save - you just have to be able to REACT).  In the case of the sleeping PCs, they aren't aware but they can't react either as they are helpless.

Again, depending on the situation I might allow the save with a -5 penalty, but I'd try to give them a chance to wake up first.  Obviously it would depend on how often this tactic came up - if it was a common practice then I'd probably go with the -5 to -10 penalty.  If it was rare, then no.

IceBear


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## kreynolds (Aug 22, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *It is on the 2nd paragraph that I base my decision that sleeping characters wouldn't get a Reflex Save (as I consider the sleeping character "bound" unless he should become aware of the danger). *




It's also in the 3rd paragraph that "The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion". 

I know, I know, they're still helpless.


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

I know kreynolds, I saw that...that's why the half asleep guards get their save to the silenced fireball, but not those that were asleep, as helpless overrides aware 

Besides, what's the guy doing casting fireballs on a party that is asleep and didn't post guards when he could walk in and CdG them all.

A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless.  Would you allow someone that is held to make a save against the fireball?  I don't see much difference between held and sleeping other than you might have a chance to wake up - which could be covered by allowing the save with a BIG penalty or allowing a skill check to detect the spell first.

IceBear


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 22, 2002)

I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.

Bound characters are helpless.
Sleeping characters are helpless.
Bound characters get no Reflex save.

It does not logically follow that sleeping characters get no Reflex save.

If you look carefully at the wording of that 2nd paragraph, you should notice it is possible for a non-helpless character to be denied a Reflex save.  Strictly speaking, helplessness has no direct connection to Reflex saves as the rules are written.  In fact, that third paragraphs strongly implies that Reflex saves are always automatic except when physically impossible.


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## TiQuinn (Aug 22, 2002)

I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come.  It also opens up a can of worms.  It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back.  Unless you know your players are going to deal well with it, I'd just skip it altogether.


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## Baron Von StarBlade (Aug 22, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *From the SRD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  That seems to go against paragraph three that you quoted. which states that the character need not be aware to get a reflex save since it is instinctive. Just because you are sleeping that doesn't mean you don't have room to move.
   In general I am against anything that will completely deny a character a save when he normally would get one. However I have no problem with putting a stiff penalty on that character (ie -5 to reflex for being asleep) for example.

   This to me is similar to not allowing a character a Will Save when they are mentally dominated. Since they don't have free control of their will/mind they shouldn't be allowed to make saves against other mind based attacks.


Just my 2 cents.


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## ForceUser (Aug 22, 2002)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> *I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come.  It also opens up a can of worms.  It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back.  Unless you know your players are going to deal well with it, I'd just skip it altogether. *



My players are adults. They can keep it in character.


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.
> 
> Bound characters are helpless.
> Sleeping characters are helpless.
> ...




I concur, but it flies in the face of all logic (I know logic has no bearing on D&D, but this is one area that I couldn't live with this) that someone who is held by hold person could evade 100% of a fireball spell if they couldn't even move and weren't protected by some magic.  I know that some people would say it's magic and the rogue's training allows him to resist the magic, and that's fine.  It just doesn't work for me.

Thus, a might allow a saving throw with a big penalty to simulate the PCs waking up at the last second and reacting to the spell, but I would prefer to have them detect it through other means, waking up, and then dealing with it.

IceBear


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## TiQuinn (Aug 22, 2002)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> *
> My players are adults. They can keep it in character. *




Go for it then.  Do you expect to take any of the characters out with it?  Like the mage, for instance?


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 22, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *
> A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless.
> *




True, but any NPC who has a fireball spell and is hunting an adventuring party at night is likely to be able to pull of a fireball from range, even with guards posted.  Denying the saving throw increases the effectiveness of an already brutal tactic by a lot.

Getting hit by a Fireball on any surprise round is bad enough.  Do we really need to find loopholes in the rules to make a TPK likely?


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

Baron Von StarBlade said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That seems to go against paragraph three that you quoted. which states that the character need not be aware to get a reflex save since it is instinctive. Just because you are sleeping that doesn't mean you don't have room to move.
> In general I am against anything that will completely deny a character a save when he normally would get one. However I have no problem with putting a stiff penalty on that character (ie -5 to reflex for being asleep) for example.
> ...




Ok, I guess I wasn't clear on how much I was willing to give the PCs in terms of detecting the spell first before it went off (so no one realized that it wasn't as harsh as it seems, but....), so I could go with just the Dex 0 for sleeping characters.

However, I would not give a save for held or magically sleeping characters as others would do when this was last brought up.  I think that I went too far in anticipation of this thread than just answering the question.

If the party was just sleeping, then they get the Save with Dex 0 to simulate waking up.

IceBear


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## IceBear (Aug 22, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> True, but any NPC who has a fireball spell and is hunting an adventuring party at night is likely to be able to pull of a fireball from range, even with guards posted.  Denying the saving throw increases the effectiveness of an already brutal tactic by a lot.
> 
> Getting hit by a Fireball on any surprise round is bad enough.  Do we really need to find loopholes in the rules to make a TPK likely? *




But that's what I said eariler.  I'm using DM's descretion here.  If it looks like it would be a TPK then I'd give the Reflex Save with a penalty.  If it would just be an annoyance, then I'd probably just go with the Listen check and have them wake up and make the save.

As I stated in my last post, I wasn't clear on how many "breaks" I was willing to give the party and in order to be consistent I would allow naturally asleep characters to have a Save with Dex 0 to simulate them waking and reacting at the last moment.

If, however, they can't react - held or magically asleep - then no save.

PS - I normally don't go out of my way to prevent saves and this has never happened in my group in case anyone gets the wrong idea.

IceBear


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## ForceUser (Aug 22, 2002)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Go for it then.  Do you expect to take any of the characters out with it?  Like the mage, for instance? *




The example I used was hypothetical. My players read this board   If I had a sneaky eveeeelll bad guy who really wanted to put the group to task, however, I could see him flying up invisible and unleashing a maximized empowered fireball in the middle of the sleeping PCs. Yeah, I'd imagine there'd be a few deaths


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## Luddite (Aug 22, 2002)

I would go with the "Always get your Reflex Save" camp.

Since the whole Save idea is supposed to encompus your charcater's ablity to react to danger.  Even if you might be otherwise distracted, or asleep.  Call it a Heroic Sixth Sense that everyone has.  Rogues are better at dodging in their sleep then Fighters.

At most, I would imposse a _circumstance_ bonus on the save DC.

-Luddite


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## kreynolds (Aug 22, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *I know kreynolds, I saw that...that's why the half asleep guards get their save to the silenced fireball, but not those that were asleep, as helpless overrides aware  *




Yup.



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *Besides, what's the guy doing casting fireballs on a party that is asleep and didn't post guards when he could walk in and CdG them all.
> 
> A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless. *




Actually, you gotta be careful when you CdG. You might wake the others up, and at best, it's a standard action to perform a CdG. So, you kill the first guy, maybe the second if you're hasted, then you get stomped to two more guys, which can especially suck if they sleep in their armor. 



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *Would you allow someone that is held to make a save against the fireball? *




Of course not. They're immobile.



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *I don't see much difference between held and sleeping other than you might have a chance to wake up *




There really isn't any correlation to a held and sleeping target, other than the fact that they're both helpless. One is helpless because he can't move (he's held), the other is helpless because he's unconsious (he could move, if he were awake).



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *which could be covered by allowing the save with a BIG penalty or allowing a skill check to detect the spell first. *




I don't give a standard reflex save when you're sleeping (your Dex is 0). After all, you're helpless until your next action.


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## kreynolds (Aug 22, 2002)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> *I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come.  It also opens up a can of worms.  It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back. *




Ahh, but a rat bastard DM's rat bastard NPCs would never sleep.


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## IceBear (Aug 23, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yup.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I kinda overreacted with my ruling because the last time this came up it wasn't naturally sleeping characters, but held characters and people were arguing that the held rogue could still make a Reflex Save.  So, I was kinda answering that question instead of the one posed 

Anyway, I guess what I *was* trying to state earlier was that I would come up with a scheme that would give each PC about a 25% chance to wake up and get their full save before the fireball, but I guess I'll go with the Dex 0 ruling instead for natually sleeping characters - just to simulate their sixth sense.

IceBear


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 23, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.
> 
> Bound characters are helpless.
> Sleeping characters are helpless.
> ...




That's not exactly what the paragraph says.  It says it's not possible to _evade_.  In a paragraph discussing an ability called evasion, I take it to mean only that Evasion is not effective while bound, not that a bound character gets no reflex save.


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## IceBear (Aug 23, 2002)

But it says *As with a Reflex save for any creature...* which I take to mean that the rules for when you can evade is the same as Reflex Saves - plus I think it was clarified by the Sage that if you're helpless you can't dodge out of the way (ie make a Reflex save)

Anyway, this thread is now starting to turn like the other one.  Sufficent to say, everyone has pet peeves with the rules - mine is the ability of someone who is helpless and can't move dodging out of the way (it's not resisting the damage - that's a Fort save), but dodging.  I know that DMs always want to give their PCs a chance - I'm all for that - but there comes a point where it just doesn't make sense.

I will concede to giving sleeping PCs a Reflex save with Dex 0 as that's just a good a model as anything else to reflex the PCs instinctively knowing they're in danger and then taking action to get out of the way.  But if they can't take that action, then no save.

IceBear


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## Thakkar Rogsnar (Aug 23, 2002)

Speaking of Rat Bastard DM tactics, I must admit that I pulled one off that was quite sneaky on my part.  The group was playing in Chult (FRCS) at the time.  90% of the party was playing humans.  Due to the type of encounters possible in Chult they decided to sleep in the trees and avoid any lighting at night.  One of the main antagonists in the game was a vampire, not common in Chult, but there as part of the campaign.  The vampire flew into the camp as a bat, landed in the tree of the character on watch, and changed forms.  After making a bit of noise to the side of the character (the night was total overcast with clouds and rain - jungle) several feet away, the vampire decided to try and dominate him.  The vampire was also sufficiently hidden.  When the character struck a sunrod and made his spot check the vampire was in front of him.  Automatic gaze success, will save against domination that the character failed.


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## the Jester (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm in the "Reflex save unless you're physically restrained" camp; that's what the quoted section of the SRD seems to indicate to me.

Think of the sleeping guy hit with the fireball who makes his save this way: when the barest beginnings of the blast hit him he wakes up and ducks into a ball, bearing the brunt of the blast on his less vital areas.  Evasion?  He rolls behind the tree he's sleeping under.  Whatever's handy- even just flattening down or whatever.  How do you normally justify evasion if there's nothing to duck behind anyway?  

I definitely agree with the -5 for an effective dex of 0 for sleeping characters, too.


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## IceBear (Aug 23, 2002)

Jester, I hope my original posts didn't make it seem like I go out of my way to prevent allowing making a Reflex save or use Evasion, because nothing could be further from the truth.  In my opinion if you can move then you can make a Reflex save.  As stupid as someone being in a 10ft square room when the fireball goes off and takes no damage I can live with it as he can move and therefore we can rationalize it away SOMEHOW (he drops to the floor at the last second, rolling quickly about smothering the flames before they have a chance to burn him).

All I meant to say is that if the guy can't move then he won't get the save or to use evasion.  My original stance was IF you're still asleep when the fireball goes off you get no save, but I would have given the characters some chance of detecting it before it went off and waking up, thus getting their save.  As pointed out here, if I just have everyone make their saves with Dex 0 then that one roll would take care of everything - if they make their saves they noticed the fireball and woke up in time to protect themselves, if they didn't then they were still asleep when it hit. That's more efficent than my rolling twice method.

IceBear


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## KarinsDad (Aug 23, 2002)

the Jester said:
			
		

> *
> I definitely agree with the -5 for an effective dex of 0 for sleeping characters, too. *




Actually, it's often more than -5.

If you have a Dex of 18, it's -9.


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## tburdett (Aug 23, 2002)

I'd follow the rules and allow a saving throw because I'm apparently one of the few people who don't think that they are better qualified than the game designers to make that decision.

Do you just completely toss out the idea that dumb luck or circumstance can play a part in every saving throw?

/rant on

What is it about being called a DM that automatically causes some people to completely lose their minds?  Just because there is a Rule 0 does not (NOT) mean that you have to use it for EVERY decision that you make.  Some of the rules work just fine the way that they are.

/rant off


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## the Jester (Aug 23, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *Jester, I hope my original posts didn't make it seem like I go out of my way to prevent allowing making a Reflex save or use Evasion, because nothing could be further from the truth.  *




Oh, no, I got that- I was just trying to offer a good cinematic justification for the case of the sleeping evasion- it's actually come up in my game.


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## IceBear (Aug 23, 2002)

tburdett said:
			
		

> *I'd follow the rules and allow a saving throw because I'm apparently one of the few people who don't think that they are better qualified than the game designers to make that decision.
> 
> Do you just completely toss out the idea that dumb luck or circumstance can play a part in every saving throw?
> 
> ...




Hmmmm - the designers DID intend for you to lose your Reflex saving throw if you're helpless.   This is another of those areas - like a natural 1/20 is an auto fail/success on saves - they intended for it to work that way but never wrote it down.  The part on Evasion where they say "As with reflex saves..." is the closest thing to it being in paper, but I did receive an email from the Sage (no I don't have it anymore) clarifying that if you're helpless you can't dodge, and if you can't dodge then you don't get to make a Reflex save.

Yes, dumb luck and circumstance does play a part in a saving throw - that's why if you're in a 10ft room and a fireball goes off right on top of you still get the save as you can try SOMETHING, and that something might just be enough.  If however, you aren't wearing your asbestos underwear and can't move (pazalyzed) then no, I don't allow saves if the fireball goes off on you.  What would you want for me to do - the paralyzed guy makes his save and his friend next to him doesn't so I say the Int22 wizard placed the fireball too high to hurt the paralyzed guy and kills the person standing next to him? Doesn't make sense.  I know that I shouldn't try to make sense of the rules (and for the most part I don't - dragons only move 5ft with a step, PCs can fall 200ft and walk away, etc) but I can't accept someone who can't move dodging to safety.  We all have our pet peeves with the rules, and this one's mine, so I'm sorry if I offended your DM sensibilites.

I'm sorry if you think I've lost my mind, but I assure you I haven't.  I tend NOT to Rule 0 anything, and don't feel I have here.  I have clarified my original postion - you get a Save with Dex 0.  What I would have originally done is have each player make a Wis (DC 12) check to "sense something was wrong" and wake up.  Those that woke up would have gotten their saves.  Those that didn't, wouldn't.  If someone was on watch, then they would have gotten a Spot chance (DC would be fairly easy as I suspect seeing a bead of fire coming towards you in the dark would have been easy) and then could shout to wake up the others as well, But, since I am in the camp of always trying to give the PC a chance (though I don't think I wasn't) then as they are just naturally asleep I agree with giving them a Save with the penalty to simulate a lucky break of waking up just in time to dodge.  But, if they were held or magically asleep, I'm sorry but there is nothing they could do to dodge, so no save. 

I can't remember the last time someone in my group has been denied a saving throw because I always try to give them a chance.  If, however, the evil priest should hold a character and then the evil mage drops a fireball on him then, sorry, no save.  I would actually think my player would thank me that that was all I did - I should have had someone walk over an CdG him.  And, just so you don't think I've lost my mind and I am an evil DM, I clarified this to my players and their response was "Of course we wouldn't get a save...why would we?" So, my group was ok with it so what does it matter if you're not.

IceBear


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