# Tasha's Hideous Laughter --- Broken?



## Sunderstone (Aug 18, 2007)

Is it me or is this spell a little too powerful for a first level spell?

A 6th level Bard player in my group (5 PCs) uses this alot, and today he completely disabled a major 10 HD foe with it for 6 rounds. The save DC was 15, and the 10 HD Fighter had only a +3 on Will saves.
So for 6 rounds he was pretty much prone and unable to fight back as the party demolished the helpless fighter in less than 3 rounds of unanswered attacks.

It seems a tad powerful that a *1st level * spell can "potentially" disable any high level (spell has no HD limit as to what it can affect) opponent for a long amount of time. 

Im thinking of applying a house rule of either.....
1) imposing a HD limit that this 1st level can affect (like the Sleep spell).
2) each round if the prone target is attacked it may reroll the saving throw.


Any opinions?


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## Heckler (Aug 18, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Is it me or is this spell a little too powerful for a first level spell?



Yup.

That's why its second level.


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## nittanytbone (Aug 18, 2007)

This also neatly illustrates how smart spell slinging can be quite effective;  throw will saves at your beefy fighter types and fort saves at the scrawny wizards.

It also shows why any fighter type meant to be a serious threat needs to have Iron Will, a multiclass with something that has strong Will saves, good wisdom, or some other way of boosting Will saves!


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## Sunderstone (Aug 18, 2007)

The spell is Bard 1 as was the case here. Its 2nd level for Sor/Wiz.


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## Heckler (Aug 18, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> The spell is Bard 1 as was the case here. Its 2nd level for Sor/Wiz.



Ahh, I missed that.

So it makes the bard useful.  Seems fine to me.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 18, 2007)

Heckler said:
			
		

> Ahh, I missed that.
> 
> So it makes the bard useful.  Seems fine to me.




I also should add that the Bard player played masterfully as he was under a previous *Tongues* spell and was able to cast it in the language of the opponent which negated the +4 language barrier save.

In any event Im starting to agree. The Bard doesnt get enough credit or respect as a class in general.  Just seems kind of powerful.


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## Heckler (Aug 18, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I also should add that the Bard player played masterfully as he was under a previous *Tongues* spell and was able to cast it in the language of the opponent which negated the +4 language barrier save.
> 
> In any event Im starting to agree. The Bard doesnt get enough credit or respect as a class in general.  Just seems kind of powerful.



Remember, being a first level Bard spell he doesn't get access to it until Bard level 2, which is only one level faster than the wizard.  He's not really *that* far ahead of the curve.


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## Nifft (Aug 18, 2007)

It's a strong spell. Yay Bard! 

Wait until you see what a high-level Wizard can do, though... 

Cheers, -- N


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## Vegepygmy (Aug 18, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I also should add that the Bard player played masterfully as he was under a previous *Tongues* spell and was able to cast it in the language of the opponent which negated the +4 language barrier save.



There is no "+4 language barrier."  (You're probably thinking of the +4 you get for being a different type of creature than the caster.)  _Tasha's hideous laughter_ is not a language-dependent spell (though it probably should be), and _tongues_ does absolutely nothing to assist it.


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## wildstarsreach (Aug 18, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Is it me or is this spell a little too powerful for a first level spell?
> 
> A 6th level Bard player in my group (5 PCs) uses this alot, and today he completely disabled a major 10 HD foe with it for 6 rounds. The save DC was 15, and the 10 HD Fighter had only a +3 on Will saves.
> So for 6 rounds he was pretty much prone and unable to fight back as the party demolished the helpless fighter in less than 3 rounds of unanswered attacks.
> ...




I think it's you, a 10th level fighter with only a +3 will.  It happens, our bard at 6th level uses it as it is his only real offensive spell.  With tasha' you are prone, not helpless like in sleep.  You can be coup de gra'd with sleep, not with tasha's.

Veg and I play in that game and most of our opponents get that +4 for being different races.


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## blargney the second (Aug 18, 2007)

Consider it a low level save-or-die effect.  If you fail your save, you're out of the fight.  it's not the only one by a long shot - I'd list them, but it'd take me ages.


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## Wik (Aug 18, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Consider it a low level save-or-die effect.  If you fail your save, you're out of the fight.  it's not the only one by a long shot - I'd list them, but it'd take me ages.




Didn't this spell take out Blue in one of the adventures we played recently?

I remember that fight.  It went something like this:

Round one:  Take out the goliath with Hideous Laughter.
Round two:  Take out the dragon shaman with Charm Person.
Round Three and Onwards:  My mage is invisible, summoning critters and hoping that the Goliath can come back into the fight.


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## blargney the second (Aug 18, 2007)

Yep, that's about the size of it.  It's a spell that denies actions and worsens defense, which is about as bad as it gets in low level D&D.


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## pallandrome (Aug 18, 2007)

Oh there are certainly worse spells to throw at low level baddies. One word for ya:

Sleep.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 18, 2007)

It also might seem powerful because you left your fighter with his stereotypical Achilles Heel and no support.  He either shouldn't have been alone or he should have had a positive wisdom modifier (potion of owl's wisdom perhaps), cloak of resistance, and/or Iron Will.  I'm not suggesting you need to powergame all the opponents, but they should be at least somewhat aware of major drawbacks, particular by the time they reach 10HD.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 18, 2007)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> It also might seem powerful because you left your fighter with his stereotypical Achilles Heel and no support.  He either shouldn't have been alone or he should have had a positive wisdom modifier (potion of owl's wisdom perhaps), cloak of resistance, and/or Iron Will.  I'm not suggesting you need to powergame all the opponents, but they should be at least somewhat aware of major drawbacks, particular by the time they reach 10HD.



This is a good point. 

A little more background info for all of you....

The module was Encounter at Blackwall Keep in the AoW AP. 
It was the Lizardfolk leader, Shukak. Short of detonating something loud, he is most likely encountered alone. I already added the Half-Dragon template as suggested by the sidebar for a slightly higher level party (my party wasnt higher level but it was larger). Adding another cohort to him would have increased the EL even further.

I adjusted him quickly stat-wise and didnt spend too much time on the skills/feats aspect. IIRC, adding the Half-Dragon template doesnt give you an extra feat (though I likely wouldnt have picked Iron Will) anyway. As for adding friendlier Will power save items, good suggestion I will look into it more in the future.

Thanks


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## Darklone (Aug 19, 2007)

Yeah Tashas is the new Hold Person.


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## Doctor DM (Aug 19, 2007)

It's especially ugly if they take that Melodic Casting (or whatever it's called) feat. Spend a Bardic Music to increase the DC by 2. Not many fighter type characters are gonna make that save.


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## Darklone (Aug 19, 2007)

Hmm, Fey Heritage gnome bards.... SEE MY ILLUSIONS!


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## wildstarsreach (Aug 20, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> This is a good point.
> 
> A little more background info for all of you....
> 
> ...




This is where he would have had  +7 vs the spell instead of the +3.


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## Hammerhead (Aug 21, 2007)

Also...a fighter has a +3 Will save base. Wisdom? Cloak of Resistance?


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## Grog (Aug 21, 2007)

Yeah, Tasha's is a much better spell than Hold Person after the 3.5 nerf, and it's lower level, too. Kind of screwy. I'm tempted to flip the levels around in my game.


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 21, 2007)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> cloak of resistance,




IMO, Cloaks of Resistance should really be called IC Cloaks of Magic Resistance because that is what you're wearing them to avoid. And everyone should have one unless you're using something else really nifty--Major Cloak of Displacement, say.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 21, 2007)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I also should add that the Bard player played masterfully as he was under a previous *Tongues* spell and was able to cast it in the language of the opponent which negated the +4 language barrier save.
> 
> In any event Im starting to agree. The Bard doesnt get enough credit or respect as a class in general.  Just seems kind of powerful.




A Bard who spends so much resources deserves to be rewarded with occasional good luck.

But really, is this spell worse than Hold Person?  It is much less potent in effect, only more broadly useful against more monsters.

Your Bard friend will have Hold Monster in not much longer, so Tasha's will soon be relegated to "what I do with a cheap spell slot to harass the enemy".


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## Grog (Aug 21, 2007)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> But really, is this spell worse than Hold Person?  It is much less potent in effect, only more broadly useful against more monsters.
> 
> Your Bard friend will have Hold Monster in not much longer, so Tasha's will soon be relegated to "what I do with a cheap spell slot to harass the enemy".




Actually, since they changed the Hold spells to allow a save every round (and two saves in the first round!) in 3.5, I'd say that Tasha's is a substantially better spell.


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## Hammerhead (Aug 21, 2007)

Sure, until your buddy spends his action delivering a coup de grace on the paralyzed sucker, making sure it doesn't ever get a second save. Then you can move onto other threats.


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## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Sure, until your buddy spends his action delivering a coup de grace on the paralyzed sucker, making sure it doesn't ever get a second save. Then you can move onto other threats.




Subject is not helpless therefore cannot be coup de gra'd.  This is for Tasha's.


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## Hammerhead (Aug 21, 2007)

Friendly Neighborhood SRD said:
			
		

> Helpless
> 
> A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.




And the Hold line of spells paralyzes someone.


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## Mistwell (Aug 21, 2007)

Hammer has it right.  If you cast Hold Person on someone, and they fail their saves, another character can coup de grâce them while they are under the effects of the spell.  You can't do that with Tasha's.


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## blargney the second (Aug 21, 2007)

-4 to AC from being prone + Power Attack = ghetto coup de grace.


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## Grog (Aug 21, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Sure, until your buddy spends his action delivering a coup de grace on the paralyzed sucker, making sure it doesn't ever get a second save. Then you can move onto other threats.




CDG is a full-round action, so unless your buddy starts out right next to the target, he gets (at least) two saves against the spell.


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## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> -4 to AC from being prone + Power Attack = ghetto coup de grace.




True, I like this thinking as I am one for kicking a dog when it's down as well as keeping to continuing kicking.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 21, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> CDG is a full-round action, so unless your buddy starts out right next to the target, he gets (at least) two saves against the spell.




Likely to be true.  However your buddy, the soon-to-be-CDGer, is going to hammer his Helpless ass with full Power Attack as a little foreplay, just in case.  And this will be one tempting target for the Rogue as well.

Being Helpless has its downsides, even if that second save gets his bacon out of the fire for the moment.  And he is dead, dead, dead if he fails the second save.


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## Lord Zardoz (Aug 22, 2007)

The Sorcerer in my game has this spell.  And it is a pretty damn scary spell considering its very nearly a Save or Screwed situation.  Between Hideous Laughter from the Sorcerer and Hold person from the Cleric, I was recently very concerned that they would manage to take down an NPC way too easily.

Happily, Wyrmlord Koth (from Red Hand of Doom) managed to make his saves, and then laid a pretty thorough beating on the players with careful applications of Lightning bolt, Blindness, and Scorching Ray.

There are plenty of ways around this.  One suggestion is to simply make sure that Wis is not a complete Dump Stat for your warrior types.  Another is to keep a friendly caster handy for your villains with a Dispel Magic handy.  And yet another is to have archers use readied actions to pincushion hostile casters as they cast spells.

Ultimately though, using common archtypes with predictable weaknesses will get you destroyed.  You will either have to start finding warrior types with some amount of Spell Resistance, or Warriors with strong Will Saves (Knight from PHB 2, Monks).  Or just start using something else entirely.  A Bebilith is CR 10, has a +9 Will Save, and its solid HP make up for the relatively weak AC.

Also, its a G*DD*MN Demon!  By level 10, its not a bad idea to start throwing some of the truly out there monsters.  Devils, Demons, Huge Elementals, they are CR appropriate.  Their weak saves are not nearly as obvious (Quick, without looking what is the weak save of a Fire Elemental?).  They are in the standard books (Unlike the Knight or some prestige classes).  And they are quicker to prep than custom classed NPC's.

END COMMUNICATION


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 22, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> CDG is a full-round action, so unless your buddy starts out right next to the target, he gets (at least) two saves against the spell.



 Not at least two, at most two.

Round N
caster --> hold person
ally --> moves into position (possibly with a std action atk)
victim --> saves (fails)

Round N+1
caster
ally --> CDG
victim ...

The victim only gets two saves when he goes before the ally.  Even then he might not get a save if the ally was close enough and has been delaying.


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## Darklone (Aug 22, 2007)

The problem of Hold Person: the CDG buddy has to use two rounds to neutralize someone (who might still escape) while with Tasha he can go kill someone else.

That´s the big thing. 

BBEG fails save against Tasha: He´s out of the combat. 
BBEG fails save against HP: All his mooks will block the access to CDG him and he´s back in combat after two or three rounds.

Don´t forget that CDG provokes AoOs. That´s pretty deadly if two or three fighter NPCs protect the held person (and one of the reason why most of our PCs use to survive being Held).

Now cast another Tasha next round at the dude who protects his fallen laughing buddy and the combat is won.


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## Mark Chance (Aug 23, 2007)

This really doesn't address the spell _per se_, and please don't tell my players, but I sometimes simply rule that a BBEG automatically makes all saves for X number of rounds (usually up to 1/2 the BBEG's CR, at most), especially if the BBEG faces the PCs by his lonesome.


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## Thurbane (Aug 23, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> The problem of Hold Person: the CDG buddy has to use two rounds to neutralize someone (who might still escape) while with Tasha he can go kill someone else.
> 
> That´s the big thing.
> 
> ...



IMHO, that reflects more on the gargantuan nerf-bat they've taken to HP in 3E than on THL.

I still remember the look on the face of a gamer in my group when he cast the first Hold Person we'd used in 3E - "What, it only affects one person? WHAT, they get a save EVERY ROUND!".


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## Corsair (Aug 24, 2007)

Lord Zardoz said:
			
		

> (Quick, without looking what is the weak save of a Fire Elemental?)




Will.  Same as all elementals.


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## Mark Chance (Aug 24, 2007)

Corsair said:
			
		

> Will.  Same as all elementals.




Fort and Will. Not the same as all elementals, but only the same as air elementals. Earth and water elementals have weak Ref and Will saves.


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## Meeki (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't allow Tasha's Hideous Laughter in my games.  Following suit of my friend who also DM's our group, the spell is not only silly but its too powerful for such a low level spell.  Then again increasing its level increases its save DC.  So we just took it out.


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