# Front page wonky



## Dog Moon

Missing stuff on the front page, mainly on the right hand side.  I see the Support EnWorld thing as well as the Recent Reviews, but I can't see the most recent replies or the news.

Is it just me?  Was like this yesterday as well.  Thought giving it a little time might help, but apparently not.


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## Wystan

I am missing everything past Recent reviews as well, no topics updates, no forums list?

Please please fix it... 

[Withdrawal]Please[/Withdrawal]


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## Morrus

I'm trying to speed the site up by removing high load items from the front page - especially those which are really just a duplicate of info elsewhere.  It seems to be working (at least to me).


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## Ilium

Ah, well.  I miss the "most recent forum threads" box, but if it's a performance hit I can understand.  If you decide to leave it like this I'll just have to change my bookmarks is all.


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## Wystan

But the most recent threads allowed me to surf at work and have an idea of what was going on in multiple forums, is there a way to have a secondary page that we could also load that has that option enabled?


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## Ilium

Wystan said:
			
		

> But the most recent threads allowed me to surf at work and have an idea of what was going on in multiple forums, is there a way to have a secondary page that we could also load that has that option enabled?



 You could just have your bookmark point directly at the forums page:

http://www.enworld.org/forums.php?

I use Firefox and have a bunch of bookmarks all in one folder.  I can then middle-click on that folder and all the bookmarsk open in separate tabs.


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## Wystan

Yes, but then I need to look at 5-6 pages at a time, not just one quick glance. I browse at work and this makes it almost impossible to do that. 

BIG FROWN


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## Dog Moon

Ilium said:
			
		

> Ah, well.  I miss the "most recent forum threads" box, but if it's a performance hit I can understand.  If you decide to leave it like this I'll just have to change my bookmarks is all.




Hrm, this is mainly the only thing I cared about, but if it's not there, I guess I'll have to deal with it.

Yes, the forums page might work, but I also like to see the headlines down the center of the page as well, meaning that my 1 page turns into 2.

But I guess no one can please everyone.


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## Jdvn1

Ilium said:
			
		

> Ah, well.  I miss the "most recent forum threads" box, but if it's a performance hit I can understand.  If you decide to leave it like this I'll just have to change my bookmarks is all.



 [/same boat]

Would 'Recent Forum Topics' load quicker if it had its own page? So, it wouldn't have to compete with everything else on the page?


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## Morrus

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> [/same boat]
> 
> Would 'Recent Forum Topics' load quicker if it had its own page? So, it wouldn't have to compete with everything else on the page?




Well you can always use the existing new posts page.


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## Ilium

Morrus said:
			
		

> Well you can always use the existing new posts page.



 Bing!  We have a winner.  I didn't know this existed, but now it's going in my bookmarks.


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## Wystan

I guess that only works if you subscribe? As I cannot afford to subscribe I guess that leaves me out?


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## Jdvn1

I... didn't know that existed! Cool! Is it linked from anywhere (other than on here?) or do I have to bookmark it to use it?


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## Morrus

It's in one of the dropdown menus at the top.


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## Wystan

Morrus, please see my question?


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## Jdvn1

Oh, 'New Posts since my last visit'--the name threw me off.  Thanks!


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## Knight Otu

Wystan said:
			
		

> I guess that only works if you subscribe? As I cannot afford to subscribe I guess that leaves me out?



Unfortunately, yes, it does use Search.

I always liked using it, but I don't find it essential. I mainly use my Subscriptions to jump around between forums, with looking what goes on in the forum. Fulfills a similar role, but I can see that the old New Posts might be more essential to others.


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## Wystan

Less functionality is a bad thing...


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## Jdvn1

The posts on there aren't arranged in chronological order (I don't know what order they're in), so not all the most recent posts are at the top.

Edit: Oh, that's because refreshing the page doesn't refresh the Search, just the times.


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## resistor

I really liked having the recent posts on the front page. 

It was undoubtedly my #1 most used site feature.


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## Wystan

resistor said:
			
		

> I really liked having the recent posts on the front page.
> 
> It was undoubtedly my #1 most used site feature.





It makes the site less new user friendly, that was an easy way to get integrated into the various discussion. I have noticed no perfomance difference without it...


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## Jdvn1

Wystan said:
			
		

> It makes the site less new user friendly, that was an easy way to get integrated into the various discussion. I have noticed no perfomance difference without it...



 That's certainly how I got integrated into discussions when I was a new user.


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## Wystan

Same here, without it I would have maybe 1/100th of the posts I currently do... 

The irony is that without it, no-one knows this thread is even here...


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## Morrus

Well, I've certainly noticed a large speed increase, and page views has jumped by over 50%, so people are able to view more pages more quickly.

From a server load POV, it has made quite a difference.


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## Uder

resistor said:
			
		

> I really liked having the recent posts on the front page.
> 
> It was undoubtedly my #1 most used site feature.




Same here. Hope it returns...


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## resistor

Pages views _would_ increase though, because people are having to navigate into the forums to see recently updated threads, whereas before they could see it all from the front page.  More people are having to navigate through more pages to get to what they want to see.  That's not progress.

Plus, more page views results in _more_ load on the web server.  The place you might be seeing a gain is in the number of queries performed on the database server.  If they have gone down, then this is a speed improvement.  But increased page views is the _opposite_ of what you want.


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## Baumi

Please bring back the Recent Topics.


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## Morrus

resistor said:
			
		

> Plus, more page views results in _more_ load on the web server.  The place you might be seeing a gain is in the number of queries performed on the database server.  If they have gone down, then this is a speed improvement.  But increased page views is the _opposite_ of what you want.




As I said, the result has been a significant decrease in load on the server.


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## Wystan

Baumi said:
			
		

> Please bring back the Recent Topics.




Seconded.

Thirded.

Fourthed


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## saturnin55

Bring back the recent topics box. From a user POV it is a very bad thing to remove useful things. That was the feature I was using the most on the main page.  IMHO, the poll box is pretty useless (okay i know the recent topics box is more important on the load). 

Remove the feature by default, but make is possible to add it back in the options menu. Most people will leave it removed anyways.

At least, make it possible for paid users to use it.

I'm a unix sysadmin of a very busy server farms. I don't know anything about your servers setup  but I'm sure you could optimize a lot of other things that can make a huge difference in performance. I guess I could also be completely offtrack and all this stuff could be completely useless for you.

-Stop all those useless services and daemons to free the ram and cpus
-optimize those hard disks parameters
-load the strict minimum of modules into your kernel
-analyse the sql requests and see what are the most frequent and long requests. See if you can optimize them, or add indexes. Things that don't change often like the recent reviews box,  generate the content in a static file and just include it in the main page. when there's a new reviews added, just regenerate the file. (that's where you have to look up the most)
-Tweak with those filesystems options to make it faster. 
-Depending of what you use as your database server and of your setup, you may be able to spit on different disks the busiest tables (faster disk reading since it's split on more disks, you can use symlinks with if you use mysql))
-tweak with those databases parameters to make it faster (cache and buffer size)
-add more RAM if you can't free enough in the previous steps,
-check your server swap performance
-check those cron jobs and make sure the big jobs are run on the less busy time.
-'vmstat', 'top' and etc. are your friends

You also could have done all this, if yes, then you might have too small servers for the kind of services you are giving. But I'd bet that some optimization could be done.

If you really want to decrease the load , you could unplug the network cables too. 

just my 2 cents


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## Morrus

Sorry guys, it's staying off for now.  I've explained my reasoning.  I'm afraid repeatedly asking isn'y going to change the server load situation - and having that on the most viewed page of the site, whether you believe it or not, does have an enormously negative effect on server load.  We've tried just about everything else.


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## Wystan

Morrus said:
			
		

> Sorry guys, it's staying off for now.  I've explained my reasoning.  I'm afraid repeatedly asking isn'y going to change the server load situation - and having that on the most viewed page of the site, whether you believe it or not, does have an enormously negative effect on server load.  We've tried just about everything else.





Just noting one last time, The quick links is what draws in the new visitor to the community, this is what makes new community supporters..



			
				me said:
			
		

> It makes the site less new user friendly, that was an easy way to get integrated into the various discussion. I have noticed no perfomance difference without it...




And Morrus, then make the main page for the forums a full userbase viewable new message page. This will remove the load from the main page and allow users to still have the functionality that made this a better place to surf than RPG.net, now this looks more like a store and less like a community.


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## Wystan

Another note,this is now a good way for ENworld to get more ad revenue as me keeping 5 pages open to refresh on a regular basis is causing me to refresh 5x as many impressions for the companies that are paying for them. How is this affecting them. I know that if I were a company that was advertising here I would expect the price for impressions to go down as you are causing m to burn through them 2-5x as fast or more.


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## Morrus

Wystan said:
			
		

> Just noting one last time, The quick links is what draws in the new visitor to the community, this is what makes new community supporters.




No, it's not.  It might be what brings you and a couple of other people in this thread in, but you're making an assertion with no empirical evidence whatsoever.  

For the very last time - the server load is too much.  It's that simple.  Making the site more convenient for you doesn't override making the whole server inaccessible to everyone else.  Server load is down drastically, whether you believe it or not.  Average number of people online is up, whether you believe it or not.

I'm sorry if I sound snippy, but I've made my decision.  I've tried to say "no" several times nicely in this thread, but it looks like I need to be really blunt: No. 

Anyway, I'm not going to stop you discussing this amongst yourselves, but I've made my decision, so I'm going to leave this conversation alone.  Have fun!


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## Ilium

I have noticed an improvement in performance, actually.


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## FreeXenon

resistor said:
			
		

> I really liked having the recent posts on the front page.
> 
> It was undoubtedly my #1 most used site feature.




Me too! 
I do see an increase in page loading.


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## Jdvn1

Morrus said:
			
		

> I'm afraid repeatedly asking isn'y going to change the server load situation - and having that on the most viewed page of the site, whether you believe it or not, does have an enormously negative effect on server load.  We've tried just about everything else.





			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Would 'Recent Forum Topics' load quicker if it had its own page? So, it wouldn't have to compete with everything else on the page?



This question was technically never answered, though such a feature anywhere might be too much. It was only effectively said that the Search feature has similar usability.


			
				Ilium said:
			
		

> I have noticed an improvement in performance, actually.



I have too. And I'm glad for that (thanks for the efforts, Morrus). And I'm also getting used to that 'New Posts since my last visit' page, though that's only available to paid users. It's also a little different from 'Recent Forum Topics'.

It's probably not possible but I might as well ask--is it possible to give unpaid members access to just _that bit_ of the Search feature?


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## Wystan

[irony]But it is so much more fun to have 10 different ENWorld pages open to refresh and use up ad impressions on when I refresh every few minutes to see the new topics...[/irony]

I do see a slight increase in speed, but some of the pages are still taking 15-20 seconds to reload and sometimes more.


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## Knight Otu

Wystan said:
			
		

> [irony]But it is so much more fun to have 10 different ENWorld pages open to refresh and use up ad impressions on when I refresh every few minutes to see the new topics...[/irony]
> 
> I do see a slight increase in speed, but some of the pages are still taking 15-20 seconds to reload and sometimes more.



Do you honestly think your new browsing habits are somehow typical? Because I'm pretty sure they aren't. Most posters likely won't go beyond the first three forums. They may be totally unaware of the other forums, whether the New Topics box exists or not.

And why would you even need to keep so many pages open and constantly refresh them? Seeing which topics you are subscribed to have new posts? That's what the User CP is for, which is available to non-supporters. Seeing which topics did get replies, even when you are not subscribed? Outside of General, it is overkill to refresh every few minutes. The other forums generally do not move that fast. Also, you can subscribe to whole forums, so you see the most recent topic that was responded to, and whether there are new posts in that forum. Subscribing to those ten or so forums you want to monitor and just refreshing the User CP page should help.

I'm kind of missing the New Topic box myself. But typically, I just used it to jump into a thread or forum I needed to be in, and browsed normally from there on.


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## Wystan

I kept the front page up as a way to see the new and interesting topics that were and are being covered. I have 4 forums and 2 fast moving threads that I keep refreshed. 

General
Rules
Off-topic
Meta
The threads are moving about as fast as I can read them and that means refreshing as well.

I can see people keeping at least 2-3 Forum mainscreens open and refreshing. That is why I stated 2-5x as often. even 1.25 times as often is still costing every advertiser on ENWorld 1.25x as much on a regular basis to advertise here, even though the number of actual click through choice will stay flat as the same person will now just see more of that same ad impression.


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## resistor

We'll never know how many people care but aren't saying anything, _because they don't know that this thread exists since there's no longer notification on the front page!_

I understand the need to keep the server load down.  I've done system administration before, I helped get SSL set up for the ENGS.  But it's also not a good plan to take away important usability features, especially when a decent percentage of your viewers have contributed money towards the site.

If nothing else, this entire fiasco has ensured that I will not be renewing my CS account or donating to a "new server drive" again.


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## Morrus

resistor said:
			
		

> If nothing else, this entire fiasco has ensured that I will not be renewing my CS account or donating to a "new server drive" again.




Fair enough.  You won't find me arguing with you over that.


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## Wystan

As I look at the front page now, it looks more like a front for the gamestore than a community site now. The Forums are not prominently displayed, the store CANNOT be minimized like every other component.


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## Knight Otu

resistor said:
			
		

> We'll never know how many people care but aren't saying anything, _because they don't know that this thread exists since there's no longer notification on the front page!_



My experience is with those problems - if it bugs people, there are two possibilities:
1: They'll start threads, even if another thread already exists. Sometimes they do it in Meta, but more often it happens in General. It doesn't matter if another thread already exists.
2: They look into Meta, and weigh in into existing threads.


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## Morrus

Wystan said:
			
		

> As I look at the front page now, it looks more like a front for the gamestore than a community site now. The Forums are not prominently displayed, the store CANNOT be minimized like every other component.




Well, I guess EN World is going in a direction which doesn't suit you, Wystan.  Dunno if RPGnet is more to your taste?


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## Wystan

Well, the main reason I liked ENWorld better was the Quick Forum Topics on the front page. But I am also more comfortable here as my morals prefer friendlier conversation. You know, like not suggesting that someone leave because they feel the site is a bit less friendly looking.


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## BrooklynKnight

Christ people WTF is wrong with you. Shortly after this thread was started someone linked to a page that shows the most recent forum topics that have been posted too. It does the SAME EXACT THING  as the small little box. Instead of going to the front page, which is a store front now, go to THAT page. 

Is it really that hard to change a bookmark? Wouldnt you be far MORE convinenced with a FAST loading page and forums then a slow loading one?


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## ColonelHardisson

For what it's worth, the site loads much, much quicker for me now. I'd been visiting a lot less frequently simply because it took so long for pages to load.


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## Uder

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Christ people WTF is wrong with you.



Not everyone is a subscriber.


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## BrooklynKnight

Oh its only for CS accounts? Well, heh. 

*thinks a moment on how he should react*

Hrm, ok then. Well maybe you should pony up for a CS account. The whole point of CS accounts is to get perks other users dont get. 

Its become too "expensive" bandwith wise to keep a particular feature of the front page running so only CS  Members have access to a similar feature. Thats fine with me and makes compete sense.

The rest of you are still over reacting.


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## Wystan

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Christ people WTF is wrong with you. Shortly after this thread was started someone linked to a page that shows the most recent forum topics that have been posted too. It does the SAME EXACT THING  as the small little box. Instead of going to the front page, which is a store front now, go to THAT page.
> 
> Is it really that hard to change a bookmark? Wouldnt you be far MORE convinenced with a FAST loading page and forums then a slow loading one?




Okay, so pay $20 (right now) that I don't have for a feature that was free?


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## BrooklynKnight

You could have paid 10$ (that you may or may not have had) when it was on sale.

And Yes, the feature WAS free.

Just beacuse something is FREE does not guarentee that it will remain free forever.

You're not obligated to get ANYTHING for free. Be THANKFULL that it was free for however long it was.

Its no longer cost effective to run that feature this Morrus made the change.

Its his responsbility to do what is best for the site overall. The big picture. That feature drained too many site resources.

Simple Fact. Thus its no longer cost effective to keep it there. It would cost too much to upgrade the site hardware/software to fix the problem. So, the most cost effective measure was taken, its removal.  


The simple truth is that EVERYONE visiting this site was being inconvinenced by this feature. So despite how great and convinent it was for the few people who depended on it (that have not, cannot, or will not get a CS account), more people were being hindered by it. So he did what he had to and he removed it.

You have every right to come here and explain your displeasure and ask for a change. But, he's clearly said he wont change it back.

Why complain further? If people ask KINDLY maybe he'd make the other page free sepratly if it is not a drain on resources.

The more you bitch and moan the less respected your position of argument will be and you'll not be taken seriously.

So, to sum up... suck it the hell up and stop bitching. If you cant fracking afford half the cost for a night out to the movies to get a feature you want/like, then too bad.


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## Wystan

Is there a reason for the venom?
Have I offended you by being upset that the very feature that drew me to this site as a regular is gone? I have been here since before 3.0, lost that ID and use this one now. I have insulted no one, and only complained that the site appears to be less friendly at the base screen level?



			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Its become too "expensive" bandwith wise to keep a particular feature of the front page running so only CS Members have access to a similar feature. Thats fine with me and makes compete sense.




As another point of contention with the prior statement, if it is so 'Unprofitable' to run the site that way, why is the sale on Community Supporter account for $20 still on? I would think they need all the possible revenue to keep the site running if it is an expense issue.

I donated to the new server, that was money that I did not have. I did it because I like this site and the people. I don't curse at them, belittle them, or yell at them for having opinions.

I hope that you have a very nice weekend and see that your venom is not needed.


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## BrooklynKnight

True, its not needed. I'm just cranky.

Have a nice day and please come again!


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## JoeBlank

Thanks for continuing to find ways to keep the site running smoothly, Morrus.

BK, I've seen you complain about your job and money before. But you managed to find the money to support site.

Many of the individual features that people want are available for less than the full community supporter price. Maybe if you guys checked that out, just enabling the search function would probably work for you.


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## Wystan

The funny thing is the search function is more expensive that the full supporter account.


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## BiggusGeekus

Wystan said:
			
		

> I donated to the new server, that was money that I did not have. I did it because I like this site and the people. I don't curse at them, belittle them, or yell at them for having opinions.




Then why are you dissapointed?

You contributed, according to you, past your means.  Which is to say $19.99 or under. Your complaint is that features you have appriciated in the past are no longer accessible to you.  

Instead of:

a) asking Morrus privately and politely for special dispensation
b) asking someone else who had planned to sponsor the site for $40 or more to cover you
c) living with the fact that you have fewer features for less than the previously stated for cost

you decide to

d) complain publically, ignore Morrus' stated reasons, and accuse other people of "venom" (your words) when they have a lack of sympathy for your plight.

Hey, here's another idea. You could have written up some of your adventures into a persentable form in MS Word and asked Morrus if he'd be willing to accept that as a contribution to ENWorld Press to pay for your membership.  You chose not to do that as well.  


Wystan, I have never had a problem with you before on this message board or others.  Ever.  And I'm pretty sure this goes back to at least 1999 with the Planescape: Torment boards.  But I am unable to agree with you here and I'm at a loss to defend your postion on any measure.

I would respectfully suggest you look into other ways you could contribute to the forums in a fashion that would suit your current economic situation.


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## Knight Otu

Wystan said:
			
		

> The funny thing is the search function is more expensive that the full supporter account.



I guess that happens when only one thing is on Sale.

After BK hopefully has gotten that venom out of his system, have you looked into the option of using your User CP, Wystan?


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## Wystan

I will no longer post on this topic since it causes such animosity. I will continue to visit the site.


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## BrooklynKnight

With all this Venom you'd think I'd have gotten a new costume!! But noooooooooooooooooo I'm still a fatass.


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## BrooklynKnight

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> Thanks for continuing to find ways to keep the site running smoothly, Morrus.
> 
> BK, I've seen you complain about your job and money before. But you managed to find the money to support site.
> 
> Many of the individual features that people want are available for less than the full community supporter price. Maybe if you guys checked that out, just enabling the search function would probably work for you.





Just for Full disclosure, Truth Seeker got me a year as a gift, and during the sale i bought another year.


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## JoeBlank

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Just for Full disclosure, Truth Seeker got me a year as a gift, and during the sale i bought another year.





Well, I guess someone was convinced that you were a valuable contributor to the site and deserved a membership. And then you agreed, and thought you should stay a member.


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## Jdvn1

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> you decide to ... accuse other people of "venom" (your words) when they have a lack of sympathy for your plight.



I thought the "venom" comment was not due to a lack of sympathy by BK but because of sharp language:


			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> bitch... moan...
> suck it the hell up and stop bitching...
> fracking...



I'd have to agree--that was a pretty rude way to make a point. I'm sorry BK is cranky, but does he have to make other people cranky? He's been nice enough the other times I've seen him post.


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## BiggusGeekus

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I thought the "venom" comment was not due to a lack of sympathy by BK but because of sharp language:
> 
> I'd have to agree--that was a pretty rude way to make a point. I'm sorry BK is cranky, but does he have to make other people cranky? He's been nice enough the other times I've seen him post.





Fair enough.


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## BrooklynKnight

Apologies for the crankyness then.


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## Nellisir

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> My experience is with those problems - if it bugs people, there are two possibilities:
> ...
> 2: They look into Meta, and weigh in into existing threads.




And get blasted?  I think not.  I'll just shut up and go away.


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## nerfherder

Morrus,

Thanks for speeding up the site.  I never used that feature on the front page, so the performance vs functionality balance shifted in the right direction for me.

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. double thanks for providing all this for free.


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## nerfherder

Wystan said:
			
		

> Okay, so pay $20 (right now) that I don't have for a feature that was free?



As a practical suggestion, you might increase your chances of getting a raise if you didn't surf at work so much.  Then you could afford a Community Supporter account.

Cheers,
Liam


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## Dimwhit

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Morrus,
> 
> Thanks for speeding up the site.  I never used that feature on the front page, so the performance vs functionality balance shifted in the right direction for me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Liam
> 
> P.S. double thanks for providing all this for free.



 Ditto, Morrus. I'm sure nearly all of the users here appreciate the speed increase. Thanks for the work.


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## GQuail

Morrus said:
			
		

> For the very last time - the server load is too much.  It's that simple.  Making the site more convenient for you doesn't override making the whole server inaccessible to everyone else.  Server load is down drastically, whether you believe it or not.  Average number of people online is up, whether you believe it or not.




This was never a feature I used, so it's absence doesn't kill me: apart from Meta, I rarely travel into the forums that are beyond the top 3, so I don't really need it.  So if taking it away has made life on your side easier because the server runs better, then that's fine by me.

I would have to say that some people on this thread are being a bit, um, overzealous in my opinion.  I will agree that the lack of search feature for non-community supporters can be a bit of a pain: it's the main reason I joined in the end, and when I was wihtout it because of the crash it was all the worse.  But if you're a free member, don't be surprised if decisions are made about the website where you get the short end of the stick.  Harsh, but that's always going to be the way it is.


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## Mistwell

resistor said:
			
		

> If nothing else, this entire fiasco has ensured that I will not be renewing my CS account or donating to a "new server drive" again.




Rest assurred, I will contribute double to the site, to make up for your lack of generosity


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## Vigwyn the Unruly

This change blows, as does Morrus's attitude toward those who are complaining. This site has gone from being a community to being a store.

You might be seeing some short-term statistical anomalies (which frankly could be interpreted in a number of ways), but in the long term, changes like these hurt the site.


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## HellHound

Seriously, this change ROCKS.

The speed of the entire site is WAY faster than before. And anything that reduces server load means that the site will operate better for longer, AT LOWER COSTS.

I guess, If people REALLY want to have the server working slower and thus costing Russ more money, they should start a fundraising campaign to pay for the ability to have that page back.

But really, the site is running at LEAST 100% better for me since the change.

Way to go Russ!


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## HellHound

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> This change blows, as does Morrus's attitude toward those who are complaining. This site has gone from being a community to being a store.




So.. how did the community part work two years ago, before this block even existed?

The forums and community have been here a LOT longer than that sideblock. The sideblock is what, a year old at most?

Think of it as an experimental sideblock that was then deleted because the experiment started running grossly over budget. Sure, it may be a cool experiment to launch frogs into orbit using massdrivers, but if those massdrivers make a few nearby cities have blackouts, maybe we should... shut them down.


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## Nellisir

HellHound said:
			
		

> The forums and community have been here a LOT longer than that sideblock. The sideblock is what, a year old at most?




I'd only been noticing a significant slowdown in the past...three months?  Certainly not a year. If the sideblock was causing the slowdown, why didn't it start the day it went up?  I figured the recent slowdown was perhaps related to the glitch that dumped, what, 6 months of messages?  I'm not a techy, though, so if Morrus says that was the cause of the reaction, then I'll take his word for it.

The loss of "community" here (which is a feeling I share) is probably partially due to changes in the site and its presentation, and partially due to changes and fragmentation in the hobby itself.  Advocates of AE, IH, C&C, etc, have their own boards to frequent.


----------



## Jdvn1

HellHound said:
			
		

> The sideblock is what, a year old at most?



I've been on EN World 1 year and 9.5 months (not counting lurking time), and that sideblock has been around the entire time. Two years would more than likely be a better guess than one year.

(which is, proportionately, a pretty long part of the lifespan of these boards (anywhere from half to a third))


----------



## Raven Crowking

I used the feature in question all of the time.  Now, I do not, because it's not there.  Things change.  Was the Recent Posts feature useful?  Sure.  Did it soak up bandwidth?  Yup.  Morrus had to decide what was preferable (less bandwidth to load or the feature) and made a decision.  That is fully within his rights, and we have no right to expect anything for free.

That said, *EN World rocks!*

This place is one-stop shopping for talking, advice, house rules, files, and even...shopping.  I mean, c'mon!  EN World supplies more value for the minute than any other rpg site I know of.  It has more D&D goodness than the WotC site.  It has a generally good community, full of people that I both like and respect.  I don't always agree with the moderators, but I sure as heck appreciate their work.

RC


----------



## GwydapLlew

I leave for Gen Con and I come back to find my access to ENWorld has increased. Thanks, Morrus!   

I'm not currently a CS, but I will be soon. I have never utlitized the now-defunct section of the site. I find that opening a forum and looking over the threads gives me a far greater ability to actually follow and participate in the threads.

Thanks for the continued effort you put in for us, Morrus!


----------



## Dimwhit

GwydapLlew said:
			
		

> I find that opening a forum and looking over the threads gives me a far greater ability to actually follow and participate in the threads.


----------



## Buttercup

Wystan said:
			
		

> Okay, so pay $20 (right now) that I don't have for a feature that was free?




Yes.  Do you think it's cheap to run this place?  Do you realize that it isn't all about you?  If the site is speeded up by eliminating a feature, then so be it.  I also had stopped coming here very often because of the lag.  I'm delighted that EN World, which I have been paying to support for many years, is loading faster.  

And if you can't afford $20 bucks, go mow some lawns or ask your parents to up your allowance.


----------



## Just_Hal

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> This change blows, as does Morrus's attitude toward those who are complaining. This site has gone from being a community to being a store.
> 
> You might be seeing some short-term statistical anomalies (which frankly could be interpreted in a number of ways), but in the long term, changes like these hurt the site.




I have been here since '00 in diift names and reasons and
1) Anything to make it faster is a GOOD thing
2) Why in gods name would I want people who whine about a free COMMUNITY site to be in a community I hang in when they complain all the time, hell I can get that from family etc..... bitch, bitch, bitch find someplace esle that can give you as much info and knowledge and people that this site has and then go to it conform it and post the link we may join you.
Until then,  up and enjoy what we have for it may not be here forever.


----------



## Anti-Sean

HellHound said:
			
		

> Sure, it may be a cool experiment to launch frogs into orbit using massdrivers, but if those massdrivers make a few nearby cities have blackouts, maybe we should... shut them down.



Man, forget buying a Community Supporter account (which my lazy self *finally* got around to the other month)... where do I send money to fund these frog-launching massdrivers?


----------



## Jdvn1

Anti-Sean said:
			
		

> Man, forget buying a Community Supporter account (which my lazy self *finally* got around to the other month)... where do I send money to fund these frog-launching massdrivers?



 Sign me up!


----------



## Nareau

I also never used the recent posts.  I was often frustrated with the slow load times.  I'm very happy to have the site loading faster.  Good work Morrus!

Spider


----------



## Rel

Spider said:
			
		

> I also never used the recent posts.  I was often frustrated with the slow load times.  I'm very happy to have the site loading faster.  Good work Morrus!
> 
> Spider




w3rd!

This is absolutely for the greater good.  BIG increase in performance and that helps every user of the site, every time they load a new page.  Totally, TOTALLY worth the loss of a feature that frankly, I never even knew existed.


----------



## Dimwhit

Rel said:
			
		

> w3rd!
> 
> This is absolutely for the greater good.  BIG increase in performance and that helps every user of the site, every time they load a new page.  Totally, TOTALLY worth the loss of a feature that frankly, I never even knew existed.



 Yeah, but there's not a book big enough to write down all the things you don't know...


----------



## Rel

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Yeah, but there's not a book big enough to write down all the things you don't know...




Oh it's ON now, bitch!


----------



## Dimwhit

Rel said:
			
		

> Oh it's ON now, bitch!



 Bring it on, little girl, bring it on.


----------



## Wystan

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Yes.  Do you think it's cheap to run this place?  Do you realize that it isn't all about you?  If the site is speeded up by eliminating a feature, then so be it.  I also had stopped coming here very often because of the lag.  I'm delighted that EN World, which I have been paying to support for many years, is loading faster.
> 
> And if you can't afford $20 bucks, go mow some lawns or ask your parents to up your allowance.




Buttercup,

Just to let you and all the others who feel as if not having money is a sin know; I make a good salary, however the caveat to that  is I bought a house recently (In northern NJ where a house at $350,000 is cheap an probably needs work) so that my sister (who was losing her house) and her 2 children would have a place to live. The mortgage is split 65/35 (Guess which half I pay). This was a HUGE increase from the rent that my wife and I were paying, and then a new car was required a few weeks ago, and it all boils down to the fact that I do get an allowance, less that $20 a week ($100 a month) to buy books, roleplaying items, pay for my MMORPG that allows me to blow off steam, and anything else that I see that needs to be purchased. This means that $20 is a Significant output for me.

As to the surfing at work, I work in an administrative capacity. I work in a position that surfing is not frowned upon, (similar to a lot of other ENWorld users). *I see no reason for the personal attacks and kindly request that they cease. I have insulted no-one, used no derogatory names, and have tried to be upbeat about this.*

Thank you, 
William - also known as Wystan

(P.S. I know that I said I would not post here, but the childish attacks at my funds and personal habits were dragging me down.)


----------



## Rel

Wystan said:
			
		

> it all boils down to the fact that I do get an allowance, less that $30 a week to buy books, roleplaying items, pay for my MMORPG that allows me to blow off steam, and anything else that I see that needs to be purchased. This means that $20 is a Significant output for me.




With all due respect Wystan, it means that it's 2/3 of ONE WEEK's "allowance" for your entertainment expenses that will pay for ONE YEAR of being a CS.  For a service that you use nearly every day all year long, possibly for multiple hours each day.  If you don't want to pay it, that's fine.  LOT'S of people don't.  But it hardly seems like a crippling expenditure to your entertainment budget.


----------



## Wystan

Deleted


----------



## SmokestackJones

I dunno what hurts my brain worse - the math you guys are flinging around or all the non-CS ingrates bellyaching about features they seem to think it's their right to have here.

*-SJ*


----------



## Nellisir

I should be smart enough to keep my mouth shut, but I'm not.

I've been around here for a little while.  I had a CS account.  By the time of my renewal, a number of features were added or ramped up that I found disagreeable and/or unpleasant.  And in a few threads similar to this one, I was more or less bluntly told that my opinion didn't matter.

It's hard to disagree with that.  It is Morrus's site.  But it really leaves a limited number of ways one can express one's dissatisfaction.  If I buy a CS account, I'm expressing support for Morrus's policy and direction.  If I don't buy a CS account, I'm forcing him to look for other sources of revenue.  Neither makes my opinion welcome.

So at the moment, I don't have a CS account ( a decision I review periodically), and I don't use the site features I disagree with.  ENW is really the only site like it on the internet, so going elsewhere isn't satisfactory either, though I'm gradually breaking away.  It's not something I'm happy about doing.

The "new posts" feature on the front page is a minor point.  I sure liked using it, but I can live without it.


----------



## Dimwhit

Nellisir said:
			
		

> So at the moment, I don't have a CS account ( a decision I review periodically), and I don't use the site features I disagree with.




Out of curiosity, what site feature do you not disagree with? Advertising? The store?

Or does Morrus have a porn room no one has told me about yet...??


----------



## Ilium

I know I'm going to regret this, but...

Can we all just relax for a minute?  I'm a big fan of the site and, if anybody cares, whole heartedly support Morrus' right to do what he thinks best with it.  

But the vehemence of responses in this thread, on all sides, has really surprised me.  It's a (very cool) web site.  Let's keep a little perspective.

Oh, and to answer Dimwhit's question: That's right.  No one has told you about it yet.


----------



## Dimwhit

Ilium said:
			
		

> Oh, and to answer Dimwhit's question: That's right.  No one has told you about it yet.




Figures. No one tells me anything.


----------



## Morrus

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I.  If I buy a CS account, I'm expressing support for Morrus's policy and direction.  If I don't buy a CS account, I'm forcing him to look for other sources of revenue.




And thus force me to have features you don't like.  




> Neither makes my opinion welcome.




Your opinion is welcome.  It's things which come across as demands which tend to raise my hackles.  If I acceded to just one demand for every $20 CS account sold (i.e. just one each), we'd have one hell of a mess of a site.

In the long run, I've got to do what I believe is best for the largest number of people.  Part of that - and it's not the fun part - is the financial side.  Unless the site draws revenue, I can't possibly afford to pay for it - thus, to an extent, its very success forces it to commercialise to an extent.  I can't and won't apologise for that - the other option is to reduce its size, let just X number of people on at a time.  And I guarantee _that _ won't be popular!

Removing the heavy sideblock from the front page was a necessary decision.  Not a decision I made where I thought "Actually, I don't like that there!".  I really had no choice.  So arguments to the contrary are somewhat wasted - you don't have to persuade me that it was better there:  I agree!  I put it there in the first place!  If it could be put back without slowing the site down again, it'd go back in a heartbeat.  

We're doing a big upgrade in the next few months, and redesigning some stuff.  We can seriously look at it then.  For now, though, I'm afraid it's something we'll all have to do without.  Including me.


----------



## FickleGM

Slow sucks, faster is better, thanks Russ.


----------



## Elephant

Morrus said:
			
		

> Well you can always use the existing new posts page.




Doesn't work.  I get a "you're not cool enough to see this page" type message


----------



## Jdvn1

Elephant said:
			
		

> Doesn't work.  I get a "you're not cool enough to see this page" type message



 It utilizes the Search feature. You have to have access to that feature to use that page.


----------



## Nellisir

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what site feature do you not disagree with? Advertising? The store?
> 
> Or does Morrus have a porn room no one has told me about yet...??



They're moot points of contention at this time, so I think discussing them in public isn't necessary or appropriate.  It'd just be fanning the flames, and since I'm the one sitting in the fire, I'd rather not.  I'll try to send you an email, or pm, or something, later on if you'd like.  Or you can send me an email.  nellisir at comcast dot net.

I assure you, a porn room would not be on my list of disagreeable things.


----------



## Mistwell

Nellisir said:
			
		

> They're moot points of contention at this time, so I think discussing them in public isn't necessary or appropriate.  It'd just be fanning the flames, and since I'm the one sitting in the fire, I'd rather not.  I'll try to send you an email, or pm, or something, later on if you'd like.  Or you can send me an email.  nellisir at comcast dot net.
> 
> I assure you, a porn room would not be on my list of disagreeable things.




And I guess that is the signal to promote:

http://www.enworld.org/circvs/

The Subolesco Orgia forum is what you want.  

Okay, so it's not actually porn.  But, it's "The 'after hours' forum, where adult conversation is kept from prying eyes."


----------



## Nellisir

Morrus said:
			
		

> And thus force me to have features you don't like.



Exactly.  Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Like I said, I'm still thinking about it.  I can swing $20, easy.  But I rarely used the CS features when I had them - they aren't worth $20 to me.  So the only reason to get a Community Supporter account is to express support.  How long should a person financially contribute to an endeavor they feel is less and less useful to them?

As I've said, I think about it periodically.  And I'll be thinking about it for the next few days.  If I can come up with a reasonable post that sums up my opinion, and post it somewhere hereabouts without being called an ingrate, whiner, crybaby, freeloader, or some other derogatory term, then I'll probably buy one.

Cheers


----------



## Nellisir

Mistwell said:
			
		

> And I guess that is the signal to promote:
> http://www.enworld.org/circvs/
> The Subolesco Orgia forum is what you want.
> Okay, so it's not actually porn.  But, it's "The 'after hours' forum, where adult conversation is kept from prying eyes."




I've been browsing Circvs recently, but hadn't come across that.  Fun site in general.


----------



## Dimwhit

Nellisir said:
			
		

> As I've said, I think about it periodically.  And I'll be thinking about it for the next few days.  If I can come up with a reasonable post that sums up my opinion, and post it somewhere hereabouts without being called an ingrate, whiner, crybaby, freeloader, or some other derogatory term, then I'll probably buy one.
> 
> Cheers




I don't think anyone minds you voices your concerns about anything. It's just when people voice them in such a way that is seems they're demanding Russ to change them...that's the problem.

Not meaning to be a shameless plug, but CM is there for exactly that purpose. Come and complain there. You complain, we'll tell you where to stick it, then we'll all enjoy a big huge and make fun of reveal. 

Edit: Or Rel. He's REALLY fun to make fun of over there.


----------



## Morrus

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Exactly.  Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
> 
> Like I said, I'm still thinking about it.  I can swing $20, easy.  But I rarely used the CS features when I had them - they aren't worth $20 to me.  So the only reason to get a Community Supporter account is to express support.  How long should a person financially contribute to an endeavor they feel is less and less useful to them?
> 
> As I've said, I think about it periodically.  And I'll be thinking about it for the next few days.  If I can come up with a reasonable post that sums up my opinion, and post it somewhere hereabouts without being called an ingrate, whiner, crybaby, freeloader, or some other derogatory term, then I'll probably buy one.
> 
> Cheers




From that POV, I would advise against getting a CS account.  The choice for you (since the features don't matter to you) is: do you wish to support the site or not?  I attach no moral obligation to it; I am happy for you to use the site without contributing.  But if you feel the site is becoming less "you" (for whatever reason), then there's no stigma in not supporting it.  However - and this is an important caveat - you need to realise this is the real world, and making that choice and then complaining about the effect of the choice (i.e. EN World needing to find other revenue streams) shouldn't really be something you're doing.

That kinda sounds like I'm putting it all on your $20, which I'm not trying to do - I've exaggerated to make a point.  It's the cumulative effect of hundreds of people who make the choice one way or another which affects how the site runs.  So I'm not trying to say you're responsible for anything, one way or the other, because you're not - any more than any other individual member is. 

I hope that came across OK!


----------



## Dimwhit

Morrus said:
			
		

> I hope that came across OK!




Like a drunken Brit? It sure did!


----------



## Bront

Wystan said:
			
		

> -Lots of stuff-



I'm not going to attack your personal spending habits, other than to say that $20 a year is not a lot to ask (less than $2 a month).  (Admittedly, I thought $40 was too much, so the sale made my day).

However, you made several assumptions about people using the front page and new posts section that I think are untrue.  I have used that exactly once, and only because I stumbled on the thread I was going on to look for there in the first place, and even that was an accident.

Not everyone browses the site like you.  Me, I usually have 2 windows up parusing different sections of the site, others have more or less, some use the feature, some don't.  You are speaking as if you are a typical user, and that is likely not the case.  And you're missing the bigger picture besides that.

Everyone is effected by server speed, and if this improves the speed, then what Morrus is asking is for some users to make a sacrifice so the entire user base can enjoy some benifits.

I for one, have noticed a huge speed increase since I got back from Gen Con, and applaud Morrus for finding a way to increase the site's speed.


----------



## Nellisir

Morrus said:
			
		

> However - and this is an important caveat - you need to realise this is the real world, and making that choice and then complaining about the effect of the choice (i.e. EN World needing to find other revenue streams) shouldn't really be something you're doing.




I agree (with a reservation).  And I hope you'll notice, I haven't exactly been going around burning down the boards with this.  I'll mention it if it seems topical, but lets face facts -- I'm a married, home-owning, first baby (it's a girl!!!!!!) on the way (December), laid-off, "making the decision to go back to school and get a masters", guy.  I've got better things to do with my time than rabble-rouse.

But (here's the reservation), prospective customers have the right to say "here's why you haven't got my money yet, and here's what you would have to do to get my money".  That's not complaining, that's feedback.  I'm not saying people don't complain, but not all objections are complaints.



> I hope that came across OK!



Just fine and dandy.  I get exactly where you're coming from.  And in your shoes, I might even make exactly the same choices.  Or not.  Tough to tell, since I'm not in your shoes.

And on the topic of what it'd take to get my money...
If the monstrously huge ads actually stay off the top of the news, as they have for the past few days, I'll absolutely buy a CS account. It's amazing how much that changed the feel of the site for me.  Hell, guarantee they'll stay gone for a year and I'll pay fifty bucks for a CS (or $20 and a $30 donation).  I realize that's probably a fraction of what they bring in, but I have to be reasonable in my grand gestures.  Baby is going to need plush-thulus.


----------



## JoelF

I just wanted to have the tally reflect I'm another person who heavily used the recent posts from the front page.  I miss it, and feel that my use of the forums will decrease (I don't post often, but do like to read a few threads a day - I just don't have time to read as much as I'd like).  

If it's not coming back, there's nothing I can do about it other than add my opinion to this thread.

On a tangent, however, I find that the recent reviews panel is something I never use.  If I want to read a review of a particular product, I'll look for it, but don't see the relevance of the list of recent reviews.  Maybe I'm in the minority on this point, but I'm thinking that either 
a) replace the recent reviews with the recent forum posts

-- or -- 

b) if removing the recent forum posts increased speed, why not remove the recent reviews as well and increase speed even more?


----------



## DaveStebbins

Wystan said:
			
		

> Is there a reason for the venom?
> 
> I have insulted no one, and only complained that the site appears to be less friendly at the base screen level?



Right, you made that complaint in post #2 of this thread. Also posts #5, #7, #12, #15, #18, #21, #23, #29, #32, #33, #38, #40, #43 and #46. A full 30% of the first 50 posts in this thread were yours.

Perhaps the 'venom' was a response to your... enthusiastic and persistent... method of complaining?


----------



## BrooklynKnight

You know, in further retrospect, my venom was due to a number of contributing factors. 

A. My cranky mood.

B. Wystans annoying persitence

C. I think I was trying to say what Morrus couldnt, or wouldnt. He's got far too much tact to speak to members of the site that way. I'm not saying I was speaking for him, mearly that If i was him thats how id react.

In any case the moment is past.


----------



## resistor

I just wanted to take a moment to apologize to Morrus for being a pain earlier.  I was mostly just in a really bad mood at the time.

In all honesty, though, this change does have a major impact on my browsing habits.  I haven't been reading nearly the number of threads that I used to read, just because I don't see them while browsing the Recent Posts.  I have also (prior to today's performance issues) not seen any improvements on my end, so, at the time, the change seemed unjustified to me.

So, while I would still like to see them come back, I would like to redress some of my fiercer words earlier.  Instead, I'll add myself to those who calmly support its reinstatement.

Sorry again, Morrus.


----------



## Pinotage

JoelF said:
			
		

> On a tangent, however, I find that the recent reviews panel is something I never use.  If I want to read a review of a particular product, I'll look for it, but don't see the relevance of the list of recent reviews.  Maybe I'm in the minority on this point, but I'm thinking that either
> a) replace the recent reviews with the recent forum posts
> 
> -- or --
> 
> b) if removing the recent forum posts increased speed, why not remove the recent reviews as well and increase speed even more?




Did the Recent Reviews take up as much CPU time as the Recent Posts? I can't imagine that it did. I certainly miss that one. Oh, well. Thanks, Morrus, in any event, for speeding things up.

Pinotage


----------



## Twin Rose

Here is what Recent Posts was doing:

Loading up however many million posts on EN World, and then organizing them from newest to oldest, showing the most recent few of those.  This process was repeated for every person viewing the front page in any given few seconds, which is typically quite a few, 80% of which are "guests".  (About 8% of the total number of people online were viewing the front page at the time of this post, aproximately 125 people).

The number of database connections this made was creating a situation where the system was unable to create any more connections, therefore timing people out.  Something that normally takes 1-2 seconds to load was taking 10-20.  In some areas, where multiple things are being done, that drags those on for 40, 50 or even more seconds.

Reducing the number of database connections at any given moment that aren't needed is a huge part of speeding EN World up right now.  It's simply that all the connections made on any page, are multiplied by the number of people viewing it... and with news, reviews, recent posts, polls, and anything else that requires database queries on the same page multiplied by the number of people using it, it can become a huge drag.

Some things can be cached - the front page doesn't list the 'newest' stuff at EN World, rather specific things that are chosen, to reduce the number of database queries needed to display it.  I'll be looking at more ways to streamline that, and create more caches, perhaps updated hourly that can bring some of these features back to the front page.

It's 3 am here as I post this, and 1500 people are on.. On a tuesday night!  (or wednesday morning).  That's a huge jump from where it was a few months ago.  In the last 30 days, there's been 13 million page views, and over 1.3 million unique visitors.  That's a lot.  (Well, 31 days, it's after midnight now).  And considerably higher than it was.  We have to find ways to streamline, since there are other sites running on this server.

In a perfect world, I could find a way to make it run fast AND have every possible feature, but until the upgrade is complete, there isn't a way with the amount of people online.  Many threads have cropped up of people saying "EN World is slow!"


----------



## Twin Rose

I do want to point out that there seem to be occasional, intermitant slow downs, and I'm working to find the situations that put the most drag on the system and number of database connections.  

One of these I know is that at midnight the system sends out a LOT of email to people for subscribed forums and threads.  The sad part is, the server also has to process a TON of returned mail about 5 minutes later, because MANY people have the wrong email address in their EN World account.  

I've been working on it steadily since I got home, and Morrus (obviously) was working on it the whole time I was at Gen Con - removing the heavy drain of the recent posts box, for example.  I'll work to streamline as much as I physically can, however.  With enough work it's possible we can get those features back up before the upgrade, but I can't promise anything - it will vastly depend on performance vs. hassle.  I don't think ANYONE likes it when EN World is having a bad day speed wise.


----------



## francisca

Hey Mo-

As far as I'm concerned, you can pare it down even more.  I actually dislike all the extra "features" hanging around the periphery of the page.  I'd really like a "lite" presentation of ENW.    I don't want the latest poll stuck over there, the newest posts over here, etc..  The toolbar/links near the top of the page is way more than I need to find what I want.

Keep up the good work, guys.


----------



## Dimwhit

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> One of these I know is that at midnight the system sends out a LOT of email to people for subscribed forums and threads.  The sad part is, the server also has to process a TON of returned mail about 5 minutes later, because MANY people have the wrong email address in their EN World account.




Personally, it wouldn't break my heart to see the email subscriptions go away. I know that's heresy, because a lot of people use that feature, but email notifications on a board like this are a serious drag on the server load.

I stopped using it when I realized that if I just enter the site through my user cp, all my subscribed threads with recent posts are right there for me.

Anyway, that's one insignificant man's opinion on that matter.  And I'm kinda with francisca...the lighter the better. But I'm sure we're in the minority on that one.

Thanks for the work!


----------



## Nellisir

Just a thought, and an obvious one at that -- can the "new posts" feature be set to only feature posts from certain forums, say the top three?  Or would those still be too much?

Just a thought,
Nell.


----------



## resistor

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> Loading up however many million posts on EN World, and then organizing them from newest to oldest, showing the most recent few of those.  This process was repeated for every person viewing the front page in any given few seconds, which is typically quite a few, 80% of which are "guests".  (About 8% of the total number of people online were viewing the front page at the time of this post, aproximately 125 people).




That just seems like an _awfully_ inefficient way to implement the recent posts thing.  I feel like there's got to be some better way to do it.

As an idea, I would suggest looking into using stored procedures (also called triggers) to fetch the most recent posts.  Basically, these allow complicated queries (like finding the most recent posts across all forums) to be written in scripts within the database server.  This would likely be a speed gain, since it removes the need to transmit large intermediate datasets (all the posts on the forums) from the server to the client.  Rather, the server only transmits the final product of the procedure.

I'd be willing to help figure out how to do it, but I'm not familiar with the database model ENWorld uses.


----------



## Jdvn1

Thanks for keeping us informed, Twin Rose.


----------



## nerfherder

resistor said:
			
		

> That just seems like an _awfully_ inefficient way to implement the recent posts thing.  I feel like there's got to be some better way to do it.
> 
> As an idea, I would suggest looking into using stored procedures (also called triggers) to fetch the most recent posts.  Basically, these allow complicated queries (like finding the most recent posts across all forums) to be written in scripts within the database server.  This would likely be a speed gain, since it removes the need to transmit large intermediate datasets (all the posts on the forums) from the server to the client.  Rather, the server only transmits the final product of the procedure.
> 
> I'd be willing to help figure out how to do it, but I'm not familiar with the database model ENWorld uses.



Hmm, when I read the original post, I assumed that what Twin Rose was describing was what the SQL was doing, not what the page was doing.  However, I have seen java developers write some very strange code before!  The correct way would be to open a SQL cursor of the SELECT statement with an ORDER BY clause and read the first n records, then close the cursor.  If, however, the code is issuing SQL to read the whole data set, then doing the sort programatically, then it looks like resistor has just spotted a BIG bit of bad coding that you should be able to correct.

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. this doesn't need to be written in a stored procedure in order to restrict the size of the results set being transferred back to the client - correct use of a cursor (as I've described) will achieve this.


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## resistor

I have no idea to what extent the page's code constructs raw SQL queries, and to what extent it uses a DBA API built into PHP.  If it's the latter, it's entirely possible that PHP is doing something stupid like transferring the large datasets back to the client at each step.

As to stored procedures, I admit to having an ulterior motive in suggesting them: since the site seems to have recently been targetted for security holes that allows its use as a spam relay.  As such, I think a shift in focus to securing the site might be appropriate, and I'm of the school of thought that stored procedures generally lead to more securely written sites.  But yes, proper cursor use would work too. 

At any rate, I do think their ought to be some way to optimize the lookup process for recent posts.


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## sniffles

I just had to pop in to say that I'm quite happy with the functionality of the site; it's better than any other forum I belong to. I have a CS account for just that purpose - to support the site. 

I also have to say that thanks to the job I started back in April I can now actually understand what nerfherder and resistor are talking about!!   

Now if I could just get rid of Internet Explorer as my browser here at work, all would be hunky-dory with my ENworld enjoyment. Stupid IE.


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## Twin Rose

resistor said:
			
		

> That just seems like an _awfully_ inefficient way to implement the recent posts thing.  I feel like there's got to be some better way to do it.
> 
> As an idea, I would suggest looking into using stored procedures (also called triggers) to fetch the most recent posts.  Basically, these allow complicated queries (like finding the most recent posts across all forums) to be written in scripts within the database server.  This would likely be a speed gain, since it removes the need to transmit large intermediate datasets (all the posts on the forums) from the server to the client.  Rather, the server only transmits the final product of the procedure.
> 
> I'd be willing to help figure out how to do it, but I'm not familiar with the database model ENWorld uses.




I believe it's partially inefficient because of checks for things like whether or not you have ACCESS to each given forum before showing the thread, so it's a ton of joins, rather than strictly just looking at the date.


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## Nellisir

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> I believe it's partially inefficient because of checks for things like whether or not you have ACCESS to each given forum before showing the thread, so it's a ton of joins, rather than strictly just looking at the date.




Wow.  If that means what I think it does, then that's just...stupid.

Or it doesn't mean that, in which case, nevermind.

Still no frelling big ad on the front page.  Still happy.
Nell.


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## Twin Rose

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Wow.  If that means what I think it does, then that's just...stupid.
> 
> Or it doesn't mean that, in which case, nevermind.
> 
> Still no frelling big ad on the front page.  Still happy.
> Nell.




I talked with Morrus about the ad, and it may be gone for good - the side ad there for the mini's looks way better.  For the advertisers, the leaderboard ad (I think?) didn't generate particularly more hits than banners, and certainly it is nice for people using the front page.  But, I can't speak for him, just looks that way at this point


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## DonTadow

What about at the least a link on the main page leading to the recent reviews where the recent reviews where. Sure its in the table of contents but when you're dealing with the basic sufer when they see something missing they think its gone, and won't look elsewhere. 

I must admit, I think the decision to take them off the front page will hurt somewhat the flow of traffic to the site. There's the person whom surfaces enworld and then the person who just scans it and sees whats popping. This move alienates the second group.


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## Truth Seeker

A. You get that a lot...  

B. No Comment.

C. Well, one think you do need to keep in mind.
None of us, will ever, never speak or think for Morrus.

And going back to A. BK, a little advice...think  well before you write.


Peace.


			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> You know, in further retrospect, my venom was due to a number of contributing factors.
> 
> A. My cranky mood.
> 
> B. Wystans annoying persitence
> 
> C. I think I was trying to say what Morrus couldnt, or wouldnt. He's got far too much tact to speak to members of the site that way. I'm not saying I was speaking for him, mearly that If i was him thats how id react.
> 
> In any case the moment is past.


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## Truth Seeker

JB (forgive the pun) at that time, him and seven others were given accounts by me. It was a random pick.

Being 'convinced' had nothing to do it.


			
				JoeBlank said:
			
		

> Well, I guess someone was convinced that you were a valuable contributor to the site and deserved a membership. And then you agreed, and thought you should stay a member.


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## Lanefan

Just to lob my .02 in here...

From what I've seen thus far, the site's excellent for what I want: intelligent and mostly civil discussion of the game and gaming; the rest...articles, reviews, store, etc....are things I'll either get to someday or won't.  The "recent posts" feature wasn't something I ever used; when I first found the site, I kinda dove into the forums with both feet and that was that.   Unlike others, though, I've noticed no real difference in operation speed over the last month...though some of that might be at this end. 

Lanefan


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## Nellisir

Those interested might check out Morrus's (brief, now closed) thread polling what people read on the front page.  Significant here because of how many people mentioned the now-departed "new posts" feature.  The (possible) morale?  Most people don't even know Meta is here, let alone want to navigate multiple pages to view the new topics.  I might be reaching, but I think the Meta posters* are, on average, the most experienced and most committed EN World members, and things they find easy or simple are very often not so for the average EN World reader.

Just a thought
Nell.

* Not me, of course.  The only things I'm committed to involve straitjackets and padded walls.   And as far as experience...well, let's just say you'd probably need three of me to challenge a 1st-level party.   

PS - Incidently, Morrus, it's bloody weird on my end when you edit my posts and use the "I" pronoun  without noting it's you and not me -- I have enough head-scratching moments without having my "you should do this" suggestions magically transformed into "I did this" statements.  For a moment, I thought I'd been made a moderator!


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