# Dragon Disciple... Worth it?



## Zadam (Apr 11, 2005)

Is the prestige class "Dragon Disciple" actually worth it?  At first glance I thought to myself "wow, breath weapon, cool!", but then noticed its only once per day.  The boost to AC is ok, but still a melee charcter will out AC you severely.  The natural attacks are pretty cool as well, but nothing spectacular.  The bonus spells are ok, but consider how many spells you are giving up to be a Dragon Disciple.  Having wings is cool, but then again why not just cast "Fly"?  The BAB is only on par with Clerics, although the 1d12 HP is very nice.

It seems to me that a Dragon Disciple is a bit of an attempt to make an arcane caster / melee combatant hybrid, but it seems that he would be pretty sub-par at both.  Closer inspection of this class to me makes it seem like its not worth it... Am I missing something?


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## Sigdel (Apr 11, 2005)

NO! I made a sorcerer who ended up a dragon deciple and it turned out to be a horrible choice. I lost seven levels worth of spell casting for nothing worth mentioning. If you do feel compelled to pick it up here is a suggestion: Take up ranks in Craft (firearms), make a flintlock pistol, put it against your temple, pull trigger. Repete as many time as needed to kill your character. 
FYI, my character was a 11 sorc/7 DD. He turned out to be such a tool, I am turning him evil next time my group plays these characters. Yeah, thats the plot. He attempts to become a god because he has compensation issues. He is not a good spellcaster and he still sucks at combat. But it's also worth mentioning that he was my first character for 3rd ed.
Please, think of your character...


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## Banshee16 (Apr 11, 2005)

Stick with the version in Tome and Blood then.  It still gains spellcaster levels, but I think at half-progression.  I'd have to review.  I was noticing it in the 3.5 SRD, and suspect it's one of several elements of the game that were broken by the move from 3.0 to 3.5.

Banshee


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## Diirk (Apr 11, 2005)

The problem you're having is you're looking at it as a 'caster with some melee power'. Its not. It gives up basically all casting power. You'll find its much more a melee class, and you'll just need to take a level of sorceror, bard, hexblade or the like to qualify.

I quite like Bard 4/Barbarian 1/DD x as a build... gets you 2nd level spells, rage, a decent chunk of skills etc... you lose 1 BAB from the bard levels, then some more from the DD, but the boost to strength makes up for the attack bonus in that regard.


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## Saeviomagy (Apr 11, 2005)

Zadam said:
			
		

> Is the prestige class "Dragon Disciple" actually worth it?  At first glance I thought to myself "wow, breath weapon, cool!", but then noticed its only once per day.  The boost to AC is ok, but still a melee charcter will out AC you severely.  The natural attacks are pretty cool as well, but nothing spectacular.  The bonus spells are ok, but consider how many spells you are giving up to be a Dragon Disciple.  Having wings is cool, but then again why not just cast "Fly"?  The BAB is only on par with Clerics, although the 1d12 HP is very nice.
> 
> It seems to me that a Dragon Disciple is a bit of an attempt to make an arcane caster / melee combatant hybrid, but it seems that he would be pretty sub-par at both.  Closer inspection of this class to me makes it seem like its not worth it... Am I missing something?




Dragon disciple is best used NOT to make a spellcaster. Use it to make a melee combatant.

Lots of hitpoints (the class effectively gets a d14 hit dice thanks to the con increase), +11 to hit in 10 levels, +4 (or 6) to damage. Extra low-level spells (so you can cast enlarge person 8 times a day for instance... Or true strike). Flight always-on is a lot better for a fighter than the fly spell. Adding a bite attack after your full-attack greatsword routine is neat too. The breath weapon can be useful for clearing out the mooks or softening up for cleaves etc. Blindsense is awesome for a character that normally doesn't get great spot/listen checks.

The best build is 1 or 2 levels of sorceror, then 3 or 4 of barbarian or fighter (or both), then DD all the way to 15. Choose combat boosting spells with sorceror (as before: enlarge person, true strike, shield, that sort of stuff: things that don't need caster level much).


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## Sigdel (Apr 11, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Stick with the version in Tome and Blood then.  It still gains spellcaster levels, but I think at half-progression.  I'd have to review.  I was noticing it in the 3.5 SRD, and suspect it's one of several elements of the game that were broken by the move from 3.0 to 3.5.
> 
> Banshee




You just get bonus spells as if it was from a high stat. If it was at half progression, it would be worth it. Although it might be worth it if you were a Hexblade. But in that case, I would be more inclined to take the Dragon Samurai from the _Miniatures Handbook_.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 11, 2005)

Well, there are ways to use it: 
1) It adds spell slots - at epic levels, it's one of the very few ways to add spell slots - but that's not very useful until you are wondering what to do with your 21st level.  Honestly, however, I'd much prefer that each of those +1's were a +1 to an arcane spell progression, as most magical prestige classes are.

2) It's NATURAL armor; which means it stacks with your +5 Full Plate and your +5 Tower Shield, and your +1 Luck bonus, and your Dodge bonuses, and many others.  Moreover, many of the spells that add natural armor add an enchancement to natural armor, and so stack.

3) The extra +2 strength each at levels 2 and 4 mean that your Attack Bonus (though not your BAB) is up by +6 at 4th (for most melee weapons, anyway) as well as increasing damage, which is a benny compared to most classes with full BAB.  However, those are the only str boosts, so it evens out with a full BAB class at 5th - for attack rolls - the damage increase stays. 

4) The requirements are slight - you need Knoweledge(Arcana) 8, sure - but it's a class skill for virtually any spellcasting class, and a single level of Bard or Sorceror will cover the casting requirements.  Draconic is just a language (1 skill point).

5) The blindsense (5th and 10th) is useful in many circumstances - mostly against invisible opponents, of course - but also handy in dark areas when you are trying to sneak, if you have a lot of stealth.

6) The natural weapons (2nd) mean you can never really be fully disarmed - you always have a way to deal leathal damage - and you can benefit from a Druid's Magic Fang spell.

7) Yeah, the breath weapon is only 1/day - but it's still a fun surprise to pull on someone.

8) Wings (9th) give you a method of flight that is very, very difficult to interrupt.

For some builds, and some circumstances, it's very useful.  It has it's place with a tank (AC, d12 HD, Str and Con boosts).  With others, especially the spellcasting classes, it's rather useless until epic levels where it's a lot harder to gain more spell slots.


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## Zadam (Apr 11, 2005)

Ahhh now I get it!  I misunderstood how you were meant to make a Dragon Disciple... I assumed you keep taking levels in Bard or Sorcerer until you qualify for DD...  I get it now... Might be ok I guess (although mediocre BAB is still a bit unsettling).


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## Bad Paper (Apr 11, 2005)

Well, for one thing, it doesn't seem to me like sorcerer is a good choice for Dragon Disciple.  It looks to me like the class was tailor-made for bards in a two levels of bard to one level of dragon disciple ratio.


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## LeifVignirsson (Apr 11, 2005)

I love my Dragon Disicple, I had it planned since the day I started off... Of course, I had three levels in Rogue and three in Sorcerer before I took it and now he is at a 25/3/3 and I haven't looked back... It was a pain for a while but well worth it once I got to BE a dragon (kept the old rules from 3.0 when it was geared towards evolving into a dragon).


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## Tric (Apr 11, 2005)

Sigdel said:
			
		

> NO! I made a sorcerer who ended up a dragon deciple and it turned out to be a horrible choice. I lost seven levels worth of spell casting for nothing worth mentioning. If you do feel compelled to pick it up here is a suggestion: Take up ranks in Craft (firearms), make a flintlock pistol, put it against your temple, pull trigger. Repete as many time as needed to kill your character.
> FYI, my character was a 11 sorc/7 DD. He turned out to be such a tool, I am turning him evil next time my group plays these characters. Yeah, thats the plot. He attempts to become a god because he has compensation issues. He is not a good spellcaster and he still sucks at combat. But it's also worth mentioning that he was my first character for 3rd ed.
> Please, think of your character...




I did the same thing, except I misinterpreted the class and gave myself a full caster progression, lol. It was my first character so I didn't know better. The DM I had at the time was oblivious.


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## Thanee (Apr 11, 2005)

Dragon Disciple is a pure fighter class. Arcane spellcasting is only used as an entry requirement.

It's not a bad class, lower BAB is a bit of a hindrance, but higher Str makes up for that and increases damage and grapple/trip, also the other attribute bonuses are nice, as are the higher hit points and the better Will save.

The breath weapon really just is a gimmick. It's incredibly weak. It's just for coolness sake. 

Bye
Thanee


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## likuidice (Apr 11, 2005)

use it for pure strength builds: trips, grapples, bull rush etc. Spiked chains are lethal in the hands of a DD.
Also remember the number of slots for items you can save on, no need for an item of flying, or blindsense, you have a one shot weapon you can use to burn away bindings, many of your abilities work inside antimagic (being the only party member who can operate inside a beholders cone while flying is pretty cool.) and you can use the true strike/power attack combo 10 or 11 times a day. 
Some good builds are: hexblade 8/DD 10/hexblade 2 (ton of 2nd level spells, all of which are useful for melee types, good combat abilities, mettle, and cha bonus to saves vs spells)

Paladin 8/sorc 1/DD 10/whatever with fighter BAB. (again lots of 2nd level spells, cha bonus to lots of things, which goes up once DD gets a cha bonus, good combat abilities, bit stat heavy, requires 12 wisdom on top of reasonable charisma, con and strength)

Fighter 4/sorc 1/DD 10/Whatever 5 (easy to make, good basis for trip fighter etc)


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## Thanee (Apr 11, 2005)

Bard also works fairly well...

Bye
Thanee


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## Scharlata (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Dragon Disciple is a pure fighter class. Arcane spellcasting is only used as an entry requirement.[...]




Hi!

Thanee (and others) got it right, I think. 

IMC, a player has made up her DD with 1 level as sorcereress and 4 levels as fightress. She chose the *spiked chain* and the _Enlarge Person_ spell. That's how to impress foes. 

Kind regards


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## Thanee (Apr 11, 2005)

The perfect 1st level spell for a DD is _Identify_. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Tetsubo (Apr 11, 2005)

How about a Goliath DD? Would the natural attacks be larger because of the Strong Build racial ability?


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The perfect 1st level spell for a DD is _Identify_.




_True Strike_. No Somatic component, so you can throw it in Full Plate, and you have all the Strength and BAB you need for the lethal _true strike_/Power Attack combo. Dragon Disciple bonus spells synergize with it beautifully, too.


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## beaver1024 (Apr 11, 2005)

In core, the best class to use with sorcerer to get DD is ... monk! 

Monks have knowledge arcana as a class skill. They desperately need all the strength and armour boosts they can get and they get huge mileage out of mage armour and enlarge which a mere sorcerer 1 will provide.

Hence Sor 1/Monk 4/DD 10 will give you the fastest entry and the best milage out of Dragon Discple (using core only).

I wonder if the monk can flurry with the DD's bite and claw attacks?


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## Corsair (Apr 11, 2005)

I like Hexblade4/Barbarian1/DD10/AnythingElse5


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## kigmatzomat (Apr 11, 2005)

IMC there is a rogue 10/sorceror 2/DD6.  He's reducing his total number of attacks due to the weaker BAB but increasing his base damage, AC, and hit points.  His spells are pretty minimal but he can cast Shield all day long while using either his two short swords.  Even buck naked he's dangerous due to his high stats, natural armor, and claws.  

He's planning on mixing in Pyrokineticist in a few levels for additional weirdness (planning on his firebolt being a "breath" weapon).  All in all, he's not a powerful character but he's not weak.  Lots of flavor and it gives me a multitude of plot hooks given the role dragons have IMC.  

Don't take one for the magic, take one for the flavor.  Complete Arcane has a crapload of "dragon blood" feats that should be perfect for the warrior/caster dragon disciple.


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## Brekki (Apr 12, 2005)

Like some have said ... fighter builds work best with DD.

I played a cleric 9/sor1/dd X for a time ... lots of righteous might's and divine powers.

Am playing a brb2/ftr4/sor1/battlerager 5/dd3 now  ... enlarge person and true strike are just so nice with this trip-based build.


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## Yeoman (Apr 13, 2005)

Once you gain the Dragon Apotheosis ability you can no longer use the enlarge person spell, am I right? Are there any spells besides true strike that will last you the entire way through the class?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 13, 2005)

beaver1024 said:
			
		

> I wonder if the monk can flurry with the DD's bite and claw attacks?




A bite or claw is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so no.

Whether he can use them as secondary attacks in the same round as a flurry with unarmed strikes or monk weapons is debated.

-Hyp.


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## Abraxas (Apr 13, 2005)

We got a fellow running a DD who went 
Cleric 1/Marshal 2/Ranger 1/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 3
Uses a Falchion and FPAATT with the Divine Might Feat
He is planning on the Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath feats
He is a fairly useful damage sponge and 2nd tier fighter


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 13, 2005)

Abraxas said:
			
		

> Uses a Falchion and FPAATT...




He's missing a level in barbarian.

It's not _proper_ FPAATT if you aren't Raging!  

-Hyp.


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Apr 13, 2005)

What in the Nine Hells is a FPAATT?


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## Abraxas (Apr 13, 2005)

FPAATT = Full Power Attack All The Time

He envisioned the character as a charismatic dabbler - raging barbarian didn't fit the image, but recent in game events have changed his out look, unfortunately he is now LN, so no barbarian even though it would fit better now.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Apr 13, 2005)

Korimyr the Rat said:
			
		

> What in the Nine Hells is a FPAATT?




I'd guess "Full Power Attack All The Time." That said, I like Wulf's "All Power Attack, All the Time" formulation better.


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## Aftersox (Apr 13, 2005)

Just wanted to say thanks.  I have been given free range to draw up a new character since my last one was murdered by overt DM-error.

I loved the idea of a Dragon Disciple but I could never make one that was playable. But now I have a character that will probably need to be heavily scrutinized by my DM.  The fun part is that because it was DM-error he's giving me 2x the average wealth of a level 12 to equip with.   

I now think DD is definetly worth it.



> Chimney Chalk
> Medium-size Male Human
> Sorcerer1 Barbarian4 Brass Dragon Disciple7
> Hit Dice: 	(1d4)+(4d12)+(7d12)+60
> ...


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## Sledge (Apr 13, 2005)

Is there any way to get Dragon Disciple with a few levels of wizard instead?  Got me a high str guy with some buffing magic... but more strength is merrier.


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## Diirk (Apr 13, 2005)

Sure, you could do Sorceror 1, Wizard x, (insert other class to make up to 5 here), DD the rest... would be fairly pointless tho.



> Level 0: Detect Magic, Light, Message, Read Magic
> Level 1: Shield, True Strike




I'm not sure Shield is particularly useful. It will only last 1 minute due to your caster level, and you can only really utilise it before a fight if you don't want to cut into your damage dealing time. True Strike is better (no asf!) but again fairly limited use considering that alot of the time you'll be better off simply attacking twice (or more with full attacks) rather than casting for 1 round, then attacking.

Thats why I favour bard 4/barb 1/DD x... I go with the mithril chain shirt. Its alot less armour, granted, but it doesn't reduce your movement, no ACP, only 10% ASF, and you get 2nd level bard spells. And there's alot of useful bard spells. Cure Light/Moderate Wounds, Heroism (altho that overlaps with your bard song), Glitterdust, Feather Fall, etc.

You'd be losing a bit of combat oomph, but you pick up a bit of utility (esp with the extra skill points).


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## nak9788 (Apr 13, 2005)

Sledge said:
			
		

> Is there any way to get Dragon Disciple with a few levels of wizard instead? Got me a high str guy with some buffing magic... but more strength is merrier.




Sure can.  Remember the main requirement is the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.  Usually people think of a sorcerer, who have this ability naturally.  For wizards however, they are required to take the Spell Mastery feat.  (I think that's the right name).  It allows a wizards (only a wizard) to prepare number of spells equal to their Int modifier without the need of a spellbook.

Incidently, our party has a Kobold Wizard7/Dragon Disciple2.  He is quite nasty in fact.  He is basically turning into a very buff wizard tank.  He had a permanent enlarge spell cast on him so he is a Medium character now, with all the Strength bonuses that come with it.


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## Diirk (Apr 13, 2005)

That doesn't work...



			
				nak9788 said:
			
		

> Remember the main requirement is the ability to cast arcane spells *without preparation*.  Usually people think of a sorcerer, who have this ability naturally.  For wizards however, they are required to take the Spell Mastery feat.  (I think that's the right name).  It allows a wizards (only a wizard) to *prepare* number of spells equal to their Int modifier without the need of a spellbook.




Do you feel silly yet?


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## IcyCool (Apr 13, 2005)

nak9788 said:
			
		

> Sure can.  Remember the main requirement is the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.  Usually people think of a sorcerer, who have this ability naturally.  For wizards however, they are required to take the Spell Mastery feat.  (I think that's the right name).  It allows a wizards (only a wizard) to prepare number of spells equal to their Int modifier without the need of a spellbook.




This doesn't meet that requirement.  Preparing spells without a spellbook is still preparing spells.  The ability to cast spells without preparation is what a Sorceror does.  You need some way for your wizard to spontaneously cast.  There was a feat in the 3.0 FRCS that let you do it with a single spell you knew.  I believe it was called "Signature Spell".


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## Sledge (Apr 13, 2005)

This character already has wizard.  Unfortunately the only feat that I can find to allow spontaneity is Epic.


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## Diirk (Apr 13, 2005)

Just take a level of sorceror, then. Or bard, or assassin, or a few of hexblade (etc, etc)


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## Jack Simth (Apr 14, 2005)

Sledge said:
			
		

> This character already has wizard. Unfortunately the only feat that I can find to allow spontaneity is Epic.



Still have to prepare the spells to burn to use it, though, so you still can't "cast arcane spells without preparation" as the SRD version of DD requires.  It needs a level of Bard, Sorceror, Assasin, or some such. 

Hmm... a Dragon Disciple Assasin.... ouch.  Fortunately, "hide" isn't a class skill for DD, so he would need Able Learner or something to make full use of it.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 14, 2005)

The Magical Training regional (1st level) feat from Player's Guide to Faerun can allow you to cast arcane spells (cantrips) without preparation.  No good to an established character (since it's a 1st level feat), but it would allow a pure wizard access to Dragon Disciple.

-Hyp.


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## glass (Apr 14, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The Magical Training regional (1st level) feat from Player's Guide to Faerun can allow you to cast arcane spells (cantrips) without preparation.  No good to an established character (since it's a 1st level feat), but it would allow a pure wizard access to Dragon Disciple.




Or pure fighter?


glass.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 14, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Or pure fighter?




Yup... although without spending another feat, you'd need to be a Ftr-13 to get enough Knowledge ranks as a pure Fighter.

Sort of a waste of the bonus spell slots, though.  Extra cantrips, hurrah!

-Hyp.


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## glass (Apr 14, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Yup... although without spending another feat, you'd need to be a Ftr-13 to get enough Knowledge ranks as a pure Fighter.




Good point. I was thinking about the BAB, but if you're going to have to blow two feats to qualify in a sensible time, you could just take weapon forcus (whatever) and weapon focus (claw or bite) and be just as well off, attack bonuis wise, most of the time. With much better spells too.


glass.


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