# B5 & Mongoose - Straczynski not pleased



## DaveMage (May 22, 2006)

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?ID=1-17550

Interesting read.


----------



## KenM (May 22, 2006)

Very interesting. To me it seems like WB gave Mongoose permission to use JMS' stuff without letting JMS know.


----------



## Ghostwind (May 22, 2006)

After being privy to some discussion within the industry about past behavior of JMS and his views of the gaming industry/hobby, I've come to the conclusion that he is more than a bit pompous and definitely suffers from an over-inflated ego. JMS really seems to believe that no one is allowed to create B5 stuff without his input and approval and doing so requires a large sum of money. Last time I checked, Warber Brothers owned B5, not JMS and they can do whatever they want with the license and it "will" be considered canon in their eyes, regardless of what JMS says or thinks.


----------



## Umbran (May 22, 2006)

What I've read does indicate that JMS is a hard man to work with.  

However, just because the man can be a bit of a jerk doesn't mean that Mongoose behaved well.  Note that JMS didn't say these folks had no right to do things - he explicitly mentioned they have a license, and thus a right.  

But, let's face it, going through his scripts and notes and using them without talking to him about it is _rude_.  Suggesting his involvement when there apparently was none is beyond rude, inching into false advertising.


----------



## Aesthetic Monk (May 22, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> After being privy to some discussion within the industry about past behavior of JMS and his views of the gaming industry/hobby, I've come to the conclusion that he is more than a bit pompous and definitely suffers from an over-inflated ego. JMS really seems to believe that no one is allowed to create B5 stuff without his input and approval and doing so requires a large sum of money. Last time I checked, Warber Brothers owned B5, not JMS and they can do whatever they want with the license and it "will" be considered canon in their eyes, regardless of what JMS says or thinks.




And that's a good thing?   

I doubt whether Warner Bros. cares one whit about what is and is not canon in anything but the most dollars-and-cents sort of way. I'm not painting them out to be evil, but their job is, what?, production, distrubtion, and the like, not art for art's sake. However, if only for sales reasons, they'd be wise, I'd imagine, to be wary of a "JMS-disliked" B5 product, given that he's nearly synonymous with B5 in the eyes of many of the people most likely to buy B5-related material some seven or so years after the last show aired.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 22, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> What I've read does indicate that JMS is a hard man to work with.
> 
> However, just because the man can be a bit of a jerk doesn't mean that Mongoose behaved well.  Note that JMS didn't say these folks had no right to do things - he explicitly mentioned they have a license, and thus a right.
> 
> But, let's face it, going through his scripts and notes and using them without talking to him about it is _rude_.  Suggesting his involvement when there apparently was none is beyond rude, inching into false advertising.




From the whole sordid post - Matthew indicates that WB gave him the scripts which THEY own. He doesn't have much of aright to gripe about that.

I am not sure about the public nature of the debate because it is hard to tell where it exactly started BUT it seems that much of this stems from an easily offended attitude. Matt certianly has not offered any attitude on the posts and by this point - with that drubbing - I'd be offering to meet in a dark alley to settle this the old fashioned way.

I feel bad for Mongoose and Matt who SEEM to be trying to make good with an over-inflated ego. Pity. I like B5.


----------



## thatdarncat (May 22, 2006)

Sucks, I like both Mongoose and JMS, and I want the rpg books to BE the show as much as possible. I can understand his (JMS) frustration at being left out of the loop - the guy's put a lot of work and a lot of himself into the setting and the show. But he's notoriously picky about what goes into "his" playground. I know the Mongoose folks are big fans of the show - it's not just another property to them. 

*shrugs* I hope they can work things out, but either way it won't change much I don't think.


----------



## shaylon (May 22, 2006)

I don't know, JMS seemed to come off like a jerk there.  Admittedly, I don't know much about the show, and I don't know what transpired prior to that message, but he might be misunderstanding what actually happens when a company like WB buys your material.  If they want a B5 story where the characters of the show want to open a strip club on some moon, then they can have that.  It's Warner Bros. now, so cooperate, or don't, it makes no matter.  It will be "canon" as far as Warner Bros. is concerned.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 22, 2006)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> I am not sure about the public nature of the debate because it is hard to tell where it exactly started BUT it seems that much of this stems from an easily offended attitude.





It started because Mongoose claimed on a podcast that their upcoming novels were based on outlines by Straczynski.  That was a lie, among other lies in the podcast according to JMS. He got upset, posted an open letter to Mongoose, and things went downhill from there.

I do have to side with JMS over this stuff.  He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe.  I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 22, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It started because Mongoose claimed on a podcast that their upcoming novels were based on outlines by Straczynski.  That was a lie, among other lies in the podcast according to JMS. He got upset, posted an open letter to Mongoose, and things went downhill from there.
> 
> I do have to side with JMS over this stuff.  He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe.  I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.




No, it isn't a lie. It is a misunderstanding but there isn't any subterfuge. Mongoose explained within the thread what they meant by "outline" and it is a satisfactory answer - it isn't a laid out five year script outline but they did INTEND to work from 3 scripts and copious notes from JMS provided by WB. I'd call that working from an outline myself. It may not be the technically correct scriptwriters version but it is an outline none-the-less.

I don't think JMS calls the shot on what is or what is not canon for B5 - WB licensing already gave Mongoose permission to place "Canon" on their products.  WB owns B5, not JMS. Personally, I prefer it when artists retain creative rights to their stuff but that simply isn't the case here (by my understanding).

Die hard B5 fan myself but talk about a touchy fella. He is clearly in the wrong and it seems by your account he is the one that made this public (not the first time for him). Mongoose made an error in terminology in a podcast and JMS took it public rather than actually answer an email or the phone or even calling WB and telling them to "fix it." On top of that he has irrefutably failed to stay on top of WB licensing current affairs and blames Mongoose for his own lack of comprehension.

I fail to see where anyone could take his side as the "just" side but I am willing to be persuaded. I read through the whole mess of replies and back and forths. Sorting out the "JMS rulz" posts there didn't seem to be much that wasn't answered to my satisfaction by Mongoose. On the other hand, JMS let loose a barage of accusations that were addressed point for point by Matt. _Can you specifiy where you think Mongoose is wrong and where JMS is right?_


----------



## WayneLigon (May 22, 2006)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> WB owns B5, not JMS. Personally, I prefer it when artists retain creative rights to their stuff but that simply isn't the case here (by my understanding).




They may own it, but they didn't create it or have a hand in it's creation. It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators. I'm wholly with JMS on this; it's his baby and if there are novels or any other material at all produced without his extensive involvement and approval, then they should not be considered or listed as 'canon' (if one cares about such a thing). Anything else is just liscensed fan-fic.


----------



## MojoGM (May 22, 2006)

Well, I have listened to the podcast in question and for the record Matt never said he was ever involved with the novels.  The question was asked as to how much involvement JMS had as a whole with that they've done with B5, and Matt said less and less as time went on, but he would be happy to have JMS involved in any way.

Then they asked about the novels, and Matt told them what he was working on.

The podcast, while quite entertaining, suffers from some bad questioning sometimes.  Out of the 3 people tossing questions as Matt, only 1 was familiar with RPGs, so one would ask a RPG question, another would ask a novel question, another would bounce back to a novel question, and someone else would ask a vague question not specifiying which one they were taking about.

I, for one, am quite happy with what Mongoose has done with B5, and from what Matt said they have big plans, all with Warner approval.  JMS is just being difficult.  JMS may have created it, but Warner now owns it, and they can do with it what they wish.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 22, 2006)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> No, it isn't a lie. It is a misunderstanding but there isn't any subterfuge. Mongoose explained within the thread what they meant by "outline" and it is a satisfactory answer - it isn't a laid out five year script outline but they did INTEND to work from 3 scripts and copious notes from JMS provided by WB. I'd call that working from an outline myself. It may not be the technically correct scriptwriters version but it is an outline none-the-less.




This Straczynski has already addressed:

*"In your reply below, you do not address your statement that you had
outlines by me. To say that you had scripts, about also which more in
a moment, and say "well, these are the outlines I was referring" is
disingenuous at best. An outline is an outline and a script is a
script. Unless one wishes to deliberately confuse the two to create
the impression of involvement."*

IMO, the only thing the scripts could be used for, and honestly considered an outline, is a novelization of said scripts.  That's not what Mongoose is doing.  They're pillaging scripts for story hints.  That's no more an outline than if I took the script to Geometry of Shadows, saw it introduced technomages, and made up my own history for them.



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> I don't think JMS calls the shot on what is or what is not canon for B5 - WB licensing already gave Mongoose permission to place "Canon" on their products.




I have no idea how the authorization for this kind of thing works, so it's hard to comment.  But like I said earlier, as far as most fans are concerned, B5 canon means "JMS approved".  That's just not happening here.  Mongoose's replies have seemed to try and imply his involvement, perhaps since they understand most fans would react this way.  Putting "Approved by WB Executive #46" on your book isn't going to sell a lot of copies.




			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> He is clearly in the wrong and it seems by your account he is the one that made this public (not the first time for him). Mongoose made an error in terminology in a podcast and JMS took it public rather than actually answer an email or the phone or even calling WB and telling them to "fix it."




None of this seems "clear".  Their history is a tangled one, and it doesn't sound like Mongoose tried too hard to establish a good working relationship previously. To quote JMS again:
*
"All that I can say is that there has been zero coordination or approvals 
between Mongoose and anyone else that I know of. To date, again as 
far as I know, WB hasn't been shown what they're doing, certainly I 
haven't seen it, don't know what it is, nobody has signed off or approved 
anything that they're doing in terms of story, content, characterization, anything.

In the long history of B5, we have never had a situation where a
licensee has decided to just go off and do their own thing without
coordinating the creative aspects through WB and myself. They're doing
this completely off on their own. No other B5 licensed company has
decided, in essence, "screw you, we don't need you," which has been my
perception of their approach from early on, when they first approached
me to try and (in my view) reluctantly get me involved...an initial
approach that was absurd, and insulting. When they came back, the
situation did not measurably improve and the attitude was one of, and
I'm admittedly characterizing it here, sod off, we don't need you, we
can go directly to the fans, who don't need you, we can do it better.
And they went on to kind of poison the well with the fans in that
regard.

And that's where it ended. They've gone off and done their thing,
without any kind of creative approval as far as I know, which I believe
is also a requirement of their contract. Be that as it may...whatever
they're doing, it has no bearing on the B5 universe insofar as I'm
concerned, which is again why I cannot endorse this on a personal or
creative basis."*



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> On top of that he has irrefutably failed to stay on top of WB licensing current affairs and blames Mongoose for his own lack of comprehension.




Do we actually know that?  Or are we going by Mongoose's word?



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> _Can you specifiy where you think Mongoose is wrong and where JMS is right?_




I think it's pretty clear that Mongoose has tried to obfuscate Straczynski's involvement to give an impression of greater canonical merit to their products.

Fans of B5 are well aware of the Del Ray novels JMS did outlines for.  So now Mongoose takes a couple unfilmed scripts and web posts and calls them an outline.  A slight error in terminology?  Could be, maybe.  But then...

Mongoose was asked, "How much input directly are you getting from JMS?" To which they replied, "These days it's getting to be less and less."  When infact it had always been zero.  

The end result is the feeling that Mongoose is trying to pull one over on the fans.


----------



## DaveMage (May 22, 2006)

I thought Matt was gracious to invite JMS to see Mongoose's operation.

It seems to me, though, that JMS is simply put out by the way his "vision" is being sold.

IIRC, a while back Mongoose asked JMS to write an intro for one of their B5 products, but JMS refused beacuse he wanted to be compensated while Mongoose wanted him to do it for free.  After JMS declined, Mongoose offered an amount, but JMS scoffed at the (what he considered small) size of the offer.


----------



## MojoGM (May 22, 2006)

"In the long history of B5, we have never had a situation where a
licensee has decided to just go off and do their own thing without
coordinating the creative aspects through WB and myself. They're doing
this completely off on their own. No other B5 licensed company has
decided, in essence, "screw you, we don't need you," which has been my
perception of their approach from early on, when they first approached
me to try and (in my view) reluctantly get me involved...an initial
approach that was absurd, and insulting. When they came back, the
situation did not measurably improve and the attitude was one of, and
I'm admittedly characterizing it here, sod off, we don't need you, we
can go directly to the fans, who don't need you, we can do it better.
And they went on to kind of poison the well with the fans in that
regard.'


I think the B5 universe IS better without JMS involved, and Mongoose is doing everything right.  But that is just my opinion...


----------



## Umbran (May 22, 2006)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> From the whole sordid post - Matthew indicates that WB gave him the scripts which THEY own. He doesn't have much of aright to gripe about that.




If Woody had gone right to the police, this would never have happened 

Politeness should extend beyond the bounds of legal right.  WB had the right to hand off the scripts.  Mongoose had the right to work with that material, sure.  But that doesn't mean the original author doesn't have any rights to gripe about how they go about it.  The guy is the basis for what will hopefully be a goodly pile of money for Mongoose.  Is it so wrong to expect that they be gracious about it? 

I mean, really, if you're going to be using the guy's material, it makes sense to actually engage with the author.  If, when they'd been given right by the WB, they should probably have said, "JMS, we've beeen given rights to XYZ by WB.  We intend to use them in this way."  So, whatever they say later, the guy knows their intent, and can read what the public sees as ad copy.

It even makes good business sense.   The folks who are going to buy this stuff are B5 fans, who, in general, hold JMS in high esteem.  If the market holds the guy as a hero, you don't want to go cheese him off.  It looks bad.  If he has an ego, it was in Mongoose's best interests to stroke that ego some.  It looks like they did not have the foresight to do so, and now it's biting them on the behind.  Go figure.


----------



## shaylon (May 22, 2006)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators.




I agree with you.  As an example, I think it sucks that the Beatles don't own some of their songs. Licensing is not about the talent and devotion that goes into the work by the creator, it's about the money to be made by the ones that fund the creator.  That said it is the way it is, and although it may be unfair it is not likely to change.  If JMS wants to put a stop to this he should try to do something about it, not chastise Mongoose for their miscommunication.  It is clear that Mongoose went through the proper channels for this, they went through the owner, WB.  It might not be in the creator's interest, but it is how the industry works.

I wish they would have consulted him; it seems mostly to be about a slight on their part, but legally they didn't have to do so.

-Shay


----------



## Starman (May 22, 2006)

Well, artists are always going to be touchy about their creations. They pour their heart and sole into them. It's hard to make any judgements about this based on what we have. I don't know who's right or who's wrong, but I do hope that they can work it out amicably.


----------



## Einan (May 22, 2006)

Isn't it sad when Mommy and Daddy fight in front of the children...  As a fan of B5, I don't care to see the dirty laundry aired in public.  I got enough on my plate without seeing the nasty back and forth between the parties involved in the dispute.  Just make my RPG and write me some fiction and keep the nastiness in private where it belongs.  I don't care who is right and who is wrong and who is a pain to work with.  I just want to see a nice shiny final product.  

Einan


----------



## beepeearr (May 22, 2006)

First off I don't believe that WB snuck into into his house one night and stole his creation (B5).  He chose to sell it for whatever reasons.  



> They may own it, but they didn't create it or have a hand in it's creation. It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators. I'm wholly with JMS on this; it's his baby and if there are novels or any other material at all produced without his extensive involvement and approval, then they should not be considered or listed as 'canon' (if one cares about such a thing). Anything else is just liscensed fan-fic.




They have a say because he sold it to them.  He sold his baby, he loses the right to say what is and isn't cannon with it.  He can say he doesn't like somthing, but he can't say it isn't cannon, only the WB can.  

An outline is just that, typically it is a very rough summary of events you want to happen, information you want to convey, and the basic plot or sub plots involved in the story.  An outline can come in many shapes and forms, some are formal, while some can be notes scratched on the back of a napkin.  

Mongoose was given some of JMS scripts and notes and used them as an outline for the novels, this may not be their intended use, but if they are using it as an outline, than it becomes an outline.


----------



## MojoGM (May 22, 2006)

Einan said:
			
		

> Isn't it sad when Mommy and Daddy fight in front of the children...  As a fan of B5, I don't care to see the dirty laundry aired in public.  I got enough on my plate without seeing the nasty back and forth between the parties involved in the dispute.  Just make my RPG and write me some fiction and keep the nastiness in private where it belongs.  I don't care who is right and who is wrong and who is a pain to work with.  I just want to see a nice shiny final product.
> Einan




I agree 100%


----------



## wingsandsword (May 22, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> I do have to side with JMS over this stuff.  He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe.  I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.



Franky, I don't give a damn whatever WB says is canon, they may have some legal right to say it, but they don't have any artistic right to.  J. Michael Straczinskis is B5 to the fans, what he says goes.  Him saying that a book isn't canonical, or as he put it "licensed fan fiction" is like a kiss of death, especially since the B5 fan base which would buy such a book is quite attentive to JMS's writings.

Ever since Day 1 of Babylon 5, it's been crystal clear this is the personal creative project of J. Michael Stracinski, he's been the architect and leader, other writers might contribute but only within his parameters, and he still retains oversight.  He wrote every single episode of the 3rd season himself, and the bulk of the other seasons!  Nothing happens without his explicit approval, because it is a world planned out in advance, he's made it clear that he has the general direction of the entire setting for 1000 years in both directions sketched out, and far more detailed notes for 100 years in both directions, he knows what's supposed to happen and not happen in that world.  

I don't know the terms of his deal with WB, but before this they haven't done any product he's disapproved of, and he's had to approve of everything.  In the 13 years since B5 came out, this is the first time I know he's specifically said a product coming out is totally non-canon, otherwise B5 has been very good about making all it's licensed products canonical and consistent, very largely through the efforts of JMS to make a consistent universe.

JMS does come off as a pompous windbag at times, and maybe he is, but he's also a very good writer, who has invested a lot of his life into a project that is beloved by many fans, so I can certainly understand him being quite passionate about anything that involves it, especially somebody doing what in his eyes is violating it.  I don't know the full record of communications that lead up to this point, but I'm sad that it's involved a falling out between JMS and Mongoose, because I've really liked Mongooses B5 RPG (as my shelf full of B5 RPG books will attest) and fear for the future of it with this whole incident.

I do find it vaguely reminsicent of when Gene Roddenberry before his death declared that Star Trek V was apocryphal (and he wasn't too pleased about the Starfleet conspiracy in Trek VI, believing that humans in his future would be above conspiracies), but Paramount Pictures refused to acknowledge this, of course, since Star Trek V was the most infamous stinker of the Trek movies, the fans (and even the writers of later productions) all ignored Trek V, and can pull out Roddenberry's belief it's apocryphcal to justify it.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 22, 2006)

1) Mongoose could not have bought the rights if they were not for sale.  If JMS really felt this srongly about it, he could have purchased what rights he could have to make sure he stayed in the loop.  I do not know how much money the license went for, I will grant you that.  But numbers I hear kicked around for licenses tend to be in the $50,000 to $75,000 range.  I would be surprised if the license for B5 was over $100,000.  I would be very surprised if it was over $150,000.  Then again, I am just speculating.  But these rights could not be purchased if they were not for sale.

2) 







			
				JMS said:
			
		

> In your reply below, you do not address your statement that you had
> outlines by me. To say that you had scripts, about also which more in
> a moment, and say "well, these are the outlines I was referring" is
> disingenuous at best. An outline is an outline and a script is a
> ...




Except that Mongoose aren't Hollywood/TV insiders and JMS is.  Heck, JMS wrote a book on the topic.  It is quite possible that Mongoose was not making a distinction that JMS was making out of innocence and ignorance.

3) 







			
				JMS said:
			
		

> So you were planning to use my scripts, without so much as informing
> me, and pillage my notes online, which are incidentally my property, as
> the basis for your novels.
> 
> ...




I'm completely with Mongoose on this.  Especially given the attitude here.  Mongoose buys the rights.  Now, before they can begin work JMS is demanding that he be consulted.  And the use of the word "arrangement" puts me firmly in Mongoose's camp.  What could JMS seriously mean other than money or being given over some of the writing which would also cost Mongoose money?  Additionally the writing fees for RPGs are low, low, low.  I doubt Mongoose could _afford_ JMS.  Frankly, at this point, if I had just bought the B5 rights, I would have gone out of my way to avoid JMS.  Because after I just paid money for the legal rights, I'm apparently paying more money to JMS for a rights I already own.

4)







			
				JMS again said:
			
		

> And I have no desire to become involved with these novels, and will not
> endorse them. It ain't the money, it ain't the Deal...I am for rent,
> but I am not for sale, because I have an obligation to the viewers of
> this show to be consistent and to always work for the utmost quality in
> our storytelling within the framework of a consistent universe.




So now, apparently, Mongoose has to pay for the rights, consult JMS, hope JMS is willing to work for free, all for some novels that he had no real desire to become involved with in the first place?    Geeze.  Want some plutonium to go with that uranium?  This guy is nuclear!

4)







			
				JMS said:
			
		

> This conversation is at an end.




Sounds like it was never at a start.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 22, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Politeness should extend beyond the bounds of legal right.  WB had the right to hand off the scripts.  Mongoose had the right to work with that material, sure.  But that doesn't mean the original author doesn't have any rights to gripe about how they go about it.  The guy is the basis for what will hopefully be a goodly pile of money for Mongoose.  Is it so wrong to expect that they be gracious about it?




Actually, judging by the tone of the various posts and counterposts, Mongoose has been nothing BUT polite . . . it's JMS who's being a cranky, ungracious jerk.  And from some backstory I've picked up here and there on the boards, it seems they have extended offers to work with JMS from time to time, only to be rebuffed rudely.

JMS has the right to not like what the WB and Mongoose have done with his creation, but to be so cranky and self-righteous when he sold the B5 story to the WB in the first place . . . sheesh . . .


----------



## JoeGKushner (May 22, 2006)

Ah, nerd arguements.

And loving it when one fan speaks for all fans.

For example, as others have posted, I could give a rat's behind about JMS's opinions on what Mongoose is doing to B5 but then again, I'm not playing it.

Own seasons 1-5 and felt it was good but towards the end there, could've been much better.

Seems that sometimes JMS just needs to let go of certain things no?


----------



## Ranger REG (May 22, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> I do have to side with JMS over this stuff.  He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe.  I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.



Do most _B5_ roleplayers feel the exact same way as _B5_ non-RPG fans? Knowing this now, would they stop playing _B5 RPG_ from Mongoose Publishing because it is not JMS-endorsed canon?


----------



## Ranger REG (May 22, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I do find it vaguely reminsicent of when Gene Roddenberry before his death declared that Star Trek V was apocryphal (and he wasn't too pleased about the Starfleet conspiracy in Trek VI, believing that humans in his future would be above conspiracies), but Paramount Pictures refused to acknowledge this, of course, since Star Trek V was the most infamous stinker of the Trek movies, the fans (and even the writers of later productions) all ignored Trek V, and can pull out Roddenberry's belief it's apocryphcal to justify it.



Interesting, he declared _Star Trek V_ apocryphal, but stopped short on declaring _Star Trek VI_ apocryphal. If anything he could have declared _Deep Space Nine_ apocryphal because of the introduction of covert Section 13, and more importantly run a very lengthy war story arc. Could.

Did he declared season 3 of _TOS_ apocryphal, or at least the "Spock's Brain" episode? I didn't hear nor see any mention of declaration.

Anyhoo... For that RPG fans of _B5,_ I hope that JMS would chill out for a while and then accept any communication from Matt. I hope that he doesn't treat RPG like any mainstream book, thinking he should get paid more while we're struggling to buy the gamebooks. I hope they find some middle ground and that would allow JMS endorse the RPG as canon.

Question is: Can JMS -- with his over-inflated ego that even I would dare not stroke -- be forgiving?


----------



## trancejeremy (May 22, 2006)

Hmmmm, just reading the link, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the RPG, but Mongoose claiming one of their upcoming novels is 100% canon and is based on some JMS scripts. Two things JMS objects to.  Doesn't seem that big a deal.  Like with Star Wars, nothing outside the movies is 100% canon.


----------



## KaosDevice (May 22, 2006)

Ego and all I am going to have to side with JMS on this one, not asking him for the ok to pilfer his stuff and then suggesting he is somehow involved is beyond rude and really in the land of the unprofessional IMO. Having been a huge B5 fan since day one I've seen JMS in action and he can be something of an atom-bomb dropper when angry. (Anyone who remembers his famous diatribes against TNT can attest to that) But at the end of the day he did give birth to that monstorous little bab 5 baby and really should be consulted when taking junior out of the crib.


----------



## Ranger REG (May 22, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Ego and all I am going to have to side with JMS on this one, not asking him for the ok to pilfer his stuff and then suggesting he is somehow involved is beyond rude and really in the land of the unprofessional IMO. Having been a huge B5 fan since day one I've seen JMS in action and he can be something of an atom-bomb dropper when angry. (Anyone who remembers his famous diatribes against TNT can attest to that) *But at the end of the day he did give birth to that monstorous little bab 5 baby and really should be consulted when taking junior out of the crib.*



Unfortunately, his consultation fee is about as large as his ego.

Yet another strong reason why I don't like product licensing.

BTW, as impressively talented he was for the _B5_ franchise, I don't think I want him anything to do with _Star Trek._ Hate to say this, but I'd rather deal with Braga's attitude than JMS's.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> BTW, as impressively talented he was for the _B5_ franchise, I don't think I want him anything to do with _Star Trek._ Hate to say this, but I'd rather deal with Braga's attitude than JMS's.



If I was a producer or TV Exec or something like that, I would probably agree.
But as a fan, I prefer "to work" with JMS, because he tells the better stories.


----------



## wingsandsword (May 22, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And loving it when one fan speaks for all fans.
> 
> For example, as others have posted, I could give a rat's behind about JMS's opinions on what Mongoose is doing to B5 but then again, I'm not playing it.



Well, in 10 years of lurking and posting on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 and rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, knowing dozens of fans in real life, talking with hundreds (maybe thousands) at numerous conventions over the past 13 years, countless e-mails, thousands of posts on numerous message boards of B5 and sci-fi sites, being an active fan of Babylon 5 from virtually the beginning and knowing the fan community all that time I feel pretty confident in saying that it is the general consensus of the Babylon 5 fan community that what JMS says in regard to the B5 universe goes, especially over what WB (PTEN or TNT. . .) says about the B5 universe.  What JMS says carries extreme weight with most serious fans.

You may disagree, you may even feel offended that you feel I spoke for you, but I'm quite certain that it's the general attitude of the fanbase there that WB doesn't call the shots with regard to canon, JMS does, and if WB and JMS disagree, JMS is right.  

For better or worse, Babylon 5 is JMS's baby, and if you're going to take the baby out to play play, you've got to keep the daddy happy.  It might not help that the daddy is possessive and has a notorious ego, but it's just part of the deal.


----------



## Aesthetic Monk (May 22, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> For better or worse, Babylon 5 is JMS's baby, and if you're going to take the baby out to play play, you've got to keep the daddy happy.  It might not help that the daddy is possessive and has a notorious ego, but it's just part of the deal.




Plus, I think there's also just a certain valid sensitiveness on JMS's part to how B5 is used, not only because of his obvious deep involvement with it but also because of the difficulties of getting it and keeping it on the air and because of the ways Crusade and the Rangers spin-offs were treated by TNT and SciFi, respectively, not to mention the stories about recasting of parts for the proposed theatrical B5 movie.


----------



## DaveStebbins (May 23, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> For better or worse, Babylon 5 is JMS's baby, and if you're going to take the baby out to play play, you've got to keep the daddy happy.  It might not help that the daddy is possessive and has a notorious ego, but it's just part of the deal.



Except that this particular daddy _*SOLD*_ his baby to WB. He now has as much right to say how it should be raised as any other birth parent who has put their kid up for adoption. Sentiment sides with him, but he accepted money to give up his rights. Belly-aching about it while counting his cash does not change this.

You might create the best campaign setting in the world and pour your very heart and soul into it. However, when you sign over the rights and accept the cash, the new owner can turn your setting into Dino-Pirates of Ninja Island if they want to. It is their property now.

Harsh, yes, but that's the real world we must live in. If you want to retain certain rights, then do not sell them all away.

-Dave


----------



## TheAuldGrump (May 23, 2006)

Hmmm, I can understand both sides of the issue, and will use my amazing sidekick abilities (almost like psychic abilities, but not) and make a guess that Mongoose thought that _Warner Brothers_ had spoken to JMS on the subject, and that JMS is assuming that WB made no such claims while selling off the scripts, and that Mongoose should not have made the assumption that it was okay with him.

Toss in a boatload of bitterness against WB (and not without reason) and you have an angry JMS and a confused Mongoose.

Sadly, all I can say is that these things happen.

The Auld Grump


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (May 23, 2006)

If you're going to be a whore, don't be surprised when the john doesn't buy you dinner or bring you flowers.  I have no patience for "artists" that want to sell their works for large sums of money and then act like it still belongs to them.  If you can't let go, don't sell the rights.  Act like you're an adult that understands how the world works.


----------



## bolen (May 23, 2006)

what is wrong with JMS has he ever gotten along with anyone for longer then two years?  Lets see

- Crusade - canceled due to TNT

- Jeramah - canceled due to HBO

- B5 RPG - Mongoose's fault

everyone but JMS.  Boy it looks as if he is the only reasonable person in the world.

How long has he worked for marvel.  Isn't it about time for Marvel to screw up and him to storm off


----------



## Kesh (May 23, 2006)

Folks, one fundamental thing being ignored here:

_If JMS had not sold the rights to WB, Babylon 5 *would not exist*, in television or any other format._

So, saying it's his own fault for selling the rights is like saying it's his fault for wanting to actually make it in the first place.


----------



## Aesthetic Monk (May 23, 2006)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> If you're going to be a whore, don't be surprised when the john doesn't buy you dinner or bring you flowers.  I have no patience for "artists" that want to sell their works for large sums of money and then act like it still belongs to them.  If you can't let go, don't sell the rights.  Act like you're an adult that understands how the world works.




Your unappealing metaphor aside, I suspect that you may be overestimating how much money's involved here for JMS. Consider, for instance, that (assuming, as I am, that he's being forthright here) he's made no money off of the B5 DVDs, which have netted WB a good deal of money (see next link).



			
				Kesh said:
			
		

> Folks, one fundamental thing being ignored here:
> 
> If JMS had not sold the rights to WB, Babylon 5 would not exist, in television or any other format.
> 
> So, saying it's his own fault for selling the rights is like saying it's his fault for wanting to actually make it in the first place.




Exactly. Not many artists (or "artists," for that matter) have $110 million to fund their own vision.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 23, 2006)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Folks, one fundamental thing being ignored here:
> 
> _If JMS had not sold the rights to WB, Babylon 5 *would not exist*, in television or any other format._
> 
> So, saying it's his own fault for selling the rights is like saying it's his fault for wanting to actually make it in the first place.




Let's just say I'd be more impressed if he had made as much a fuss about the wargame.

Plus, as I said before, he could have bought back the rights himself.  It isn't like Mongoose is General Electric or anything.  Cripes, the fans probably would have chipped in and helped JMS get the book rights back.

And as bolen pointed out, the list of people who don't get along with JMS is long and distinguished.  As for myself, I wouldn't mind working under him.  I really wouldn't mind working above him (fiscally, he's very responsible).  But I have to say I'd avoid working _with_ him.  Not that he would or should give a crap what a random dude like me thinks.

And I gotta say, on Mongooses' part, it isn't like the Starship Troopers, Conan, Judge Dredd, Lone Wolf, or Paranoia people are complaining loudly.  Unless I missed that.


----------



## Hypersmurf (May 23, 2006)

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> You might create the best campaign setting in the world and pour your very heart and soul into it. However, when you sign over the rights and accept the cash, the new owner can turn your setting into Dino-Pirates of Ninja Island if they want to. It is their property now.




Dude - if the new owner had to _turn your setting into_ Dino-Pirates of Ninja Island, it wasn't any higher than the _second_-best campaign setting in the world to begin with...

-Hyp.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 23, 2006)

I can see how JMS would be touchy about B5... not only is it his baby, but he's had problems in the past regarding television executives.  It isn't particularly fair for him to apply that to this situation, but no one said life was fair.

Also, I hesitate to say that we've got the whole story here.  To quote B5, "Understanding is a three-edged sword; your side, their side, and the truth."  I'm fairly willing to believe that what's going on is somewhere closer to the middle ground.  That is to say, everyone is a little touchy, some things might have been said out of anger and defensiveness.  Some things have to do with pride, and some have to do with pretention, on both sides.

With regards to rights... as far as I know, there are very few shows on television right now where the writers/creators own their own properties.  Unfortunately, making television is expensive, and that's why there are distributors, to fund that.  In exchange, they get the right to sell rights.  The contract between JMS and WB, as described by JMS, is quite generous in that he is allowed and possibly even guaranteed creative consultation.


----------



## trancejeremy (May 23, 2006)

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you actually read the posts in question, he's upset with Mongoose claiming novels that were written by someone else were based on his scripts and were 100% canonical.  Basically they are trying to use his name to endorse it, but he hasn't even seen it.  Wouldn't anyone be annoyed if someone tried to sell something your name that you didn't have anything to do with, really?  Especially as Mongoose has a history of shoddy (and sometimes offensive) material.

It has nothing to do with the RPG! It's about a set of novels Mongoose is publishing.  and my reading of it is that wouldn't bother him if they hadn't dragged his name into it first.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 23, 2006)

bolen said:
			
		

> what is wrong with JMS has he ever gotten along with anyone for longer then two years?  Lets see
> 
> - Crusade - canceled due to TNT
> 
> ...




Straczynski has been working in TV for over 20 years.  You're bringing up three problems as proof he's irrational and difficult to work with?  Let's look at them a little more closely anyway.

Crusade was canceled, we learned from a TNT source, strictly as a ratings decision.  The drama that happened afterwards was to facilitate that end.  If you want to call him a liar for saying so, feel free, but he does have a history of being truthful with his posts, with over a decade of archived material.   I think you'd find yourself in the minority with such an opinion.  

Jeremiah he left because he couldn't stand MGM executives.  He admitted as much.  

And now we have this Mongoose situation, where it appears they have been clouding the particulars of his involvement, and perhaps even stealing from him.  In his last post to Mongoose, he specificially denies them the right to his notes and unpublished scripts.  He's not going to do that if they own them legally.  He wouldn't be able to.  Despite what your personal opinion of him may be, he's been in this business for a long time;  he knows his rights.

All that said, is he difficult to work with?  I'd bet he is.  That's what happens when someone is uncompromising about quality work.  It's also a rare thing in a town of yes-men and sycophants.  If people in Hollywood stood their ground more often, we'd have better material coming from them.


----------



## Staffan (May 23, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Crusade was canceled, we learned from a TNT source, strictly as a ratings decision.



How could it be canceled "strictly as a ratings decision" when it was cancelled before the first episode aired?


----------



## Mytholder (May 23, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Mongoose was asked, "How much input directly are you getting from JMS?" To which they replied, "These days it's getting to be less and less."  When infact it had always been zero.




Nope. Look at the Mongoose B5 RPG corebook. There's an introduction written by JMS in there. It hasn't always been zero.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 23, 2006)

TNT had been doing an examination of their ratings and discovered that those who came for Babylon 5 left immediately after it was over.  They wanted viewer retention, and figured that Straczynski's shows weren't delivering it.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 23, 2006)

Mytholder said:
			
		

> Nope. Look at the Mongoose B5 RPG corebook. There's an introduction written by JMS in there. It hasn't always been zero.




Yeah, that's actually the one B5 book I own.  I figured from the introduction he had at least some sort of good relationship with them.

I don't know if it counts as "direct input" though.  He wrote a bit about RPGs in general and his brief experience with them, and that's it.


----------



## JoeGKushner (May 23, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> For better or worse, Babylon 5 is JMS's baby, and if you're going to take the baby out to play play, you've got to keep the daddy happy.  It might not help that the daddy is possessive and has a notorious ego, but it's just part of the deal.




Daddy shouldn't have pimped out baby then.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (May 23, 2006)

Aesthetic Monk said:
			
		

> Your unappealing metaphor aside, I suspect that you may be overestimating how much money's involved here for JMS. Consider, for instance, that (assuming, as I am, that he's being forthright here) he's made no money off of the B5 DVDs, which have netted WB a good deal of money (see next link).




DVD residuals would have been negotiated.  If he didn't negotiate a part of that, it was short-sighted on his part (Hollywood accounting shenanigans aside).  He wouldn't be the only one, though, as there weren't many people in that time period that foresaw how popular TV show DVD compilations would be.

But just for the writing (IMDB credits him with being the writer for 84 episodes), that would be $500,000 to $1.1 million by current scale.  He was also executive producer, which generally involves additional compensation and benefits (as opposed to just a 'producer' credit, which is "what you give your secretary instead of a raise").  

He has credits going back 15 years before B5.  I think by then he knew how the game was played.


----------



## Storm Raven (May 23, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> TNT had been doing an examination of their ratings and discovered that those who came for Babylon 5 left immediately after it was over.  They wanted viewer retention, and figured that Straczynski's shows weren't delivering it.




Of course, the rational observer would conclude that the remaining TNT lineup was the problem, since there wasn't anything to make B5 viewers _want_ to stick around. Then again, television executives rarely seem to behave in rational ways.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 23, 2006)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> If you're going to be a whore, don't be surprised when the john doesn't buy you dinner or bring you flowers.  I have no patience for "artists" that want to sell their works for large sums of money and then act like it still belongs to them.  If you can't let go, don't sell the rights.  Act like you're an adult that understands how the world works.



My very first thought after reading the link.

Does JMS own any part of B5? If not, he's got no right to whine. "Telling the person who wrote those scripts that you're DOING it" indeed.


----------



## frankthedm (May 23, 2006)

edit too rough clensing...


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 23, 2006)

A bit snippy there huh frank?

Anyway, I'm a big fan of B5, bought the DVD sets and all that, but I don't think JMS has much room to stand on this one.  He sold the rights, WB can do what they want with them.  Mongoose has a license to do novels and game books apparently and WB can call them canon if they so desire. 

And after the sheer mind numbing horror of JMS's writing on Spider-man I think maybe the luster of his work has worn off a bit.  Spider totum B.S. my ass....*grumble*


----------



## Storm Raven (May 23, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The B5 fans that feel the auther still deserves respect if not 'creative control' should simply boycot all further products. That will not  likely happen since that would require them to give up thier 'fix'.




Somehow, I have a hard time generating a lot of sympathy for an author who, through the sale of his creative product, made many millions of dollars from the endeavor when he turns around and wants to claim continued creative control.

I am a big fan of _Babylon 5_, but JMS has been more than compensated for his "baby".


----------



## Ranger REG (May 23, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> To me the author’s response in the email sounds like something I could picture Peter Atkinson *feeling* after he found out just what selling wotc to Hasbro actually _meant_. Realizing far too late one has sold their ‘baby’ is going to put one in the mood to lash out.



You could picture it, but it hasn't happened yet, did it?




			
				frankthedm said:
			
		

> The B5 fans that feel the auther still deserves respect if not 'creative control' should simply boycot all further products. That will not  likely happen since that would require them to give up thier 'fix'.



I can give JMS a little respect, but I'm not going to deify him. I can understand why he considers _B5_ his own baby, since he wrote all the aired episodes for the third and fourth seasons. Makes me wonder why he needed a writing staff in the first place, other than to lower Hollywood's unemployment rate. But he relinquished his parental right when he sold it to WB.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (May 23, 2006)

Have to say, Mongoose sounds polite, while JMS sounds like an arse.  In the big picture, it is completely irrelevant whether JMS is justified in his anger, because the way he addresses the issue gives the reader no confidence that he is acting in a reasonable and informed fashion.  You can't take somebody seriously when they're screaming.

I love the B5 TV show, I like the books, I liked the Agents of Gaming expansion of the back story, and I like most of what Mongoose has done with the license.  I'm happy to get more product associated with the universe.  While I appreciate that JMS created that universe, and respect his talents, I would eagerly buy more quality product without regard to his opinion.  He no longer owns the property, and he was fairly compensated for that.


----------



## KaosDevice (May 24, 2006)

I suppose the big question is, is Mongoose going to go ahead with their novels,canon or no?


----------



## Einan (May 24, 2006)

Removed due to unnecessary content.

Nothing to see here.  Look away.

Einan


----------



## Morrus (May 24, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Then close your eyes and plug your ears. If you don't want to know the unpleasant truths, stick to the Corporate websites that spoon-feed fans only the information the company wants them to know.
> 
> If you like living on a placid island of ignorance, the internet may not be a good place to poke around. If you don't want to know _if_ the people who made your cloths live in soul-crushing poverty, don't go poking around on the web about where the cloths are made. If knowing the creator of you favorite series was royally ripped off and then screwed over by the company that bought the rights, avoid the websites that deal in honesty.




Over 2000 posts.  You're hardly new.  You know better.

Please drop out of this thread immediately.

Everyone else, do not reply to frank's post.

A further post from frank or a reply to frank's post automatically comes with a 3 day ban.

Thanks, folks.


----------



## Einan (May 24, 2006)

Morrus, Everyone.

I apologize for my post.  It was baiting and unnecessarily so.  

Einan


----------



## frankthedm (May 24, 2006)

...........


----------



## DaveStebbins (May 24, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Dude - if the new owner had to _turn your setting into_ Dino-Pirates of Ninja Island, it wasn't any higher than the _second_-best campaign setting in the world to begin with...
> 
> -Hyp.



Well, I have to yield to Hyersmurf's superior logic, here.   

-Dave


----------



## danzig138 (May 24, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The contract between JMS and WB, as described by JMS, is quite generous in that he is allowed and possibly even guaranteed creative consultation.



That's always been my understanding of the situation. If that's the case, how does that tie into this whole affair?


----------



## Einan (May 24, 2006)

Perhaps he's upset that he was not consulted as much as he wishes.  If that's the case, then he probably ought to discuss it was the WB and Mongoose and not publicly air his dirty laundry on the Internets.  It just seems to indicate a lack of desire to constructively work through this like rational adults and more seems that he's looking for some sort of public vindication that he is in fact a Better Person than Mat Sprange.  

Einan


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 24, 2006)

Einan said:
			
		

> It just seems to indicate a lack of desire to constructively work through this like rational adults and more seems that he's looking for some sort of public vindication that he is in fact a Better Person than Mat Sprange.




I'm just going to point out that this is, in essense, an argument.  Both sides are trying to play like they're right.  Go into half the threads on this board and you'll see the same thing.  Heck, most of this thread is the same thing.

Regardless of whether or not JMS has any sort of rights regarding the property, it is his right to distance himself from the work.  He's defending the only thing that really matters in entertainment - name.  That's his right, same as anyone else has.  Perhaps he's gone about it undiplomatically, and perhaps that will cost him in the long run, who knows?  It doesn't matter.  If someone claims something publically about you, you do in fact have the right to respond just as publically, to defend yourself.  JMS probably could have handled it behind the scenes, but then statements made about him publically stand publically, and his rebuttal may or may not.  Most likely not, since negotiations are generally kept behind closed doors.

Is his defending himself a slight against Mongoose?  It depends on what's really going on, and I don't think any of us know that.  Is he being a jerk?  Probably a bit of one.  However, he can not be criticized for responding publically to statements about himself, truthful or not, publically made by another party.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 24, 2006)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> That's always been my understanding of the situation. If that's the case, how does that tie into this whole affair?




I'm inclined to think the answer is probably somewhere around not much.

For one thing, "creative input" is a very ambiguous, ethereal thing in the entertainment industry.  It can mean a lot... which is another way of saying it can mean nothing.  Technically speaking, he's already had creative input with the license... with the RPG.  It's not something that can be quantifiably measured or denoted.

Second, if WB liscensed the novelization rights to Mongoose as well, then Mongoose doesn't need anyone's permission to do what they please with them.  That's why you pay money for rights.

Third, the damage is already done, the argument is over, and whatever happens will be.  Whether or not he really has input is moot, since the effect of this can be seen simply by reading this thread.


----------



## Sulimo (May 24, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> "All that I can say is that there has been zero coordination or approvals
> between Mongoose and anyone else that I know of. To date, again as
> far as I know, WB hasn't been shown what they're doing




I have to admit I find that unlikely in this day and age given the way megacorps feel about licensing.

As for myself, this in no way affects how I feel about the RPG or these novels. They'll be looked at on a case by case basis. Admittedly JMS' early treatment of Mongoose has something to do with this opinion. As well as JMS' extremely hit and miss record creatively lately.

I also feel a bit offended by the insinuations that your not a true fan unless your 100% behind JMS.


----------



## sniffles (May 24, 2006)

I haven't been following this closely, but I couldn't help but be interested by an email comment I just received from a friend who's been working in the gaming industry for many years.

My friend has a less than favorable impression of the quality of Mongoose's materials. Evidently they published a Conan setting book which included a map ripped directly from TSR's _Spellbound _ product. Someone appeared to have stolen the map, *which my friend originally created*, off of WotC's website. Mongoose apparently blamed the artist responsible for the map appearing in their book, but has yet to publish a new version of the Conan material with a new map -  or give any credit to my friend as its original creator.

 :\


----------



## DaveMage (May 24, 2006)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I haven't been following this closely, but I couldn't help but be interested by an email comment I just received from a friend who's been working in the gaming industry for many years.
> 
> My friend has a less than favorable impression of the quality of Mongoose's materials. Evidently they published a Conan setting book which included a map ripped directly from TSR's _Spellbound _ product. Someone appeared to have stolen the map, *which my friend originally created*, off of WotC's website. Mongoose apparently blamed the artist responsible for the map appearing in their book, but has yet to publish a new version of the Conan material with a new map -  or give any credit to my friend as its original creator.
> 
> :\




IIRC, the artist in question admitted wrongdoing.  

I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes with Mongoose and WotC regarding the matter, though.


----------



## Elf Witch (May 24, 2006)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> I have to admit I find that unlikely in this day and age given the way megacorps feel about licensing.
> 
> As for myself, this in no way affects how I feel about the RPG or these novels. They'll be looked at on a case by case basis. Admittedly JMS' early treatment of Mongoose has something to do with this opinion. As well as JMS' extremely hit and miss record creatively lately.
> 
> I also feel a bit offended by the insinuations that your not a true fan unless your 100% behind JMS.




I agree with on the the statement about you are not a truefan unless you are 100% in JMS corner. I well remember getting slammed by other B true fans just because I said I think TNT was right the second pilot for Crusades was better and I enjoyed it more.


With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon. 

But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.


----------



## trancejeremy (May 24, 2006)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon.
> 
> But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.




But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...


----------



## trancejeremy (May 24, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> IIRC, the artist in question admitted wrongdoing.
> 
> I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes with Mongoose and WotC regarding the matter, though.




Yeah, but it's still baffling, how someone could simply take a city from another product (completely unlike the city in question) and Mongoose would find it acceptable. I mean, wouldn't someone (like the author or editor) notice that is doesn't even remotely look like the city it's supposed to depect.  Shouldn't Mongoose have provided the map maker a rough outline of what the city should look like (along with descriptions), instead of apparently just saying "Hey, send us a map of a city"?


----------



## Elf Witch (May 24, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...




Then they were in the wrong as well. This should have never been made public by either side and it just makes everyone involved look bad.


----------



## DaveMage (May 25, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but it's still baffling, how someone could simply take a city from another product (completely unlike the city in question) and Mongoose would find it acceptable. I mean, wouldn't someone (like the author or editor) notice that is doesn't even remotely look like the city it's supposed to depect.  Shouldn't Mongoose have provided the map maker a rough outline of what the city should look like (along with descriptions), instead of apparently just saying "Hey, send us a map of a city"?




A valid question.

Mongoose, though - especially in prior years - was certainly hit and miss on quality control for many products.  I believed they have pulped a few because of it.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2006)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I agree with on the the statement about you are not a truefan unless you are 100% in JMS corner. I well remember getting slammed by other B true fans just because I said I think TNT was right the second pilot for Crusades was better and I enjoyed it more.



I'm no where near a true fan, since I haven't actually seen an entire episode of B5... 


> With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon.



Sorry, but from even a cursory reading, it seems to me that public questions deserve public answers. Mongoose chose a public forum and it was right to address it in public because of that. 


> But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.



With everything out there, folks can make their own decisions about the matter.


For the record, from reading the stuff, it's got nothing to do with the guys rights to his work.
"He's involved less and less" vs "I was never involved" seems cut & dry to me. The difference between "outline" and "we made a plot off a line said in a script" seems obvious too.

If you want to debate what is and is not canon, fine, but the problem seems to be Mongoose representing a level of involvement that just isn't there.


----------



## ssspaladin (May 25, 2006)

*A novel-length commentary*

Hi – I haven’t posted on these boards in a long time, but given my interest in the issues being discussed here, I feel some compulsion to weigh in. This has turned into a small novel, and I hope that I don’t come across too badly (or, god forbid, pretentious). If I preach, I apologize in advance. Blame my father’s influence. And if 2200 words is too damned long and marks me as a stupid n00b, then I guess I’ll wear my noobiness proudly. Besides, you can always skip this post if you want…

For the record, I am the author mentioned by Sniffles in her previous post. Many years ago, back in the stone age, when I rode my dinosaur to and from work, I was the author of a Forgotten Realms product called “Spellbound.” In association with this book I designed a city inhabited by the Red Wizards of Thay, carefully scribing it on quadrille paper and sending the maps to TSR (a prize to anyone who remembers what that stands for, btw). The maps were published in “Spellbound,” I was paid, TSR took full and complete ownership of the maps and that was that. Since then I’ve bounced from TSR to WotC to White Wolf to Fantasy Flight, Goodman Games and others. Now I’m back freelancing with WotC.  

Since then, my maps have appeared on WotC’s official website under their “Map-a-Week” section. I was tickled, and hope that lots of folks got to use them in their campaigns. I wasn’t credited or paid for this, but that was okay. Gamers got to use and enjoy them.

Recently, Mongoose published a boxed city set for their Conan d20 rpg. They presented it as an original creation. They did not credit it in any way other than to list the cartographer. Yup, it was my map. Listed as someone else’s work. I was more amused than anything else. I didn’t raise a fuss, since it looked like Mongoose had gotten scammed by a lazy artist. But it was still “my” map, and had I chosen to complain, I think I would have been justified. Mongoose and the artist apologized for the gaffe and said they’d get a revised edition out with original maps (I don’t know whether they’ve actually done this or not).

I didn't think this was a result of dishonesty on Mongoose’s part -- I just saw it as an indication of how slipshod their operation was. This is the same company, mind you, that included references to “half-orcs” in their Conan d20 rules, suggesting that they had simply cut and pasted the OGL material into the rulebook without bothering to edit or spell-check. That too has been fixed (with the "Atlantean Edition"), but as someone who spent a lot of time as a game editor and developer, I think it never should have happened in the first place.

However, if this is an indication of Mongoose's level of professionalism, I’m not the least bit surprised that JMS is upset.

Many people have stated that JMS “sold” B5 to WB, and now WB can do anything they want with it. The fact is that ownership of an intellectual property is far more complex than that. JMS did not exactly “sell” all the rights to his setting as he remains its creator and can continue to develop it as he chooses. If WB "owns" B5 then how did JMS make "Legend of the Rangers" (yes, I know it sucked, but that's beside the point) or start work on the (now-abandoned) B5 theatrical movie? Obviously, JMS retains an enormous amount of creative control over the property. WB retains certain rights to the material, merchandising and marketing, but does not “own” it.

Even if JMS has absolutely no “ownership” of the B5 franchise (and given his continued involvement in B5, that statement is demonstrably false), it still leaves open the question of morality and ethics. If JMS feels that material that he created is being used in a manner that he does not like, does he have the right to say so? Does the fact that he no longer has a legal stake in material that he created prevent him from using public forums and means of communication to state his displeasure at Mongoose's lack of professional courtesy?

Well, if you say “no” then I guess the terrorists have won. You may not agree with me, but I believe issues of ethics to be just as important as legal matters, if not more so.

Read again what JMS wrote. He said that a publisher is planning to use material that he wrote to create novels into which he has no creative input, and that said publisher – despite their avowed love and respect for him and his creation – has not so much as attempted to contact him to at least say “Oh, by the way Joe – we’re taking the scripts that you wrote and turning them into a novel. Ta.” If nothing else, I would expect Mongoose to have acted within at least minimal standards of professionalism in this case.

Since obviously JMS can still create new B5 material, then he has every right to “round off” (to use Mongoose’s term) the “Crusade” series in his own way, to tell new stories and to guide the franchise in any direction he wants. What he says goes and must be incorporated into any new material created for the B5 universe. If he were to create his own version of the material and “round off” “Crusade” in his own way, but change the notes and outlines he’s already made, where does that leave Mongoose’s version? I’ll tell you where – out in the cold along with fan fiction about Buffy’s hot three-way affair with Faith and Giles.

I think we can all agree that JMS is not the most diplomatic guy in the world. His manner seems tactless and needlessly blunt to me, but then I'm a paragon of polite discourse and reasoned discussion. However, in the end all JMS has done is say “I didn’t approve this and I don’t like what you’re doing. It’s not ‘official’ and you shouldn’t claim that it is.” He even said that Mongoose can “go right ahead” and create their own B5 material, but that he does not want to be associated with it in any way, and their material is not “canon.” Sure, he could have been more polite, and said it in a less public forum, but then he was responding to a public announcement by Mongoose, so I don’t think that posting on Usenet is really all that reprehensible.

Here’s a scenario for you. See what you think.

I’m Joe Game Company Owner. I have obtained the license to do the “official” Lord of the Rings roleplaying game (no, I'm not the owner of Decipher games; this is entirely hypothetical). I have a contract with the New Line Cinema, who controls all licensing for the motion pictures. I paid them a lot of money. I publish several roleplaying books. Unlike Mongoose, I get them right the first time I publish them, and they do not require “Atlantean Editions” in which all the errors are fixed. Everyone loves my LotR roleplaying books.

Then I get a great idea! J.R.R. Tolkien, as we know, left voluminous notes about his work. We should take those notes and publish NEW Middle Earth novels! After all, Tolkien’s estate “sold” “The Lord of the Rings” to New Line Cinema, didn’t they? I mean, hell, Tolkien’s son has written more material for the setting, and someday someone in the family might choose to write more, but after all we have a licensing agreement that allows us to do things like this. Why not use it?

I’m so excited about the prospect of continuing the heroic saga of Middle Earth that I announce it at a gaming convention. “We’ve got several outlines by J.R.R. Tolkien,” I say. “We’ve also got all the notes he wrote. We’re going to write NEW novels, and ‘round off’ the story begun in the original trilogy. Ever wonder what happened to Sam Gamgee? To Merry and Pippin? What adventures Aragorn had after becoming king? Well, that’s all in the appendices to LotR, but we’re going to expand on it and tell brand new stories. And guess what? Since we’re using J.R.R. Tolkien’s material as a starting point, it will be 100% Canon!” Though I expect thunderous applause at this point, all I can hear is crickets chirping as the assembled multitudes stare at me in abject horror.

I am distressed to learn that not everyone is happy with me. Tolkien’s estate complains bitterly. I get into an online flame war with J.R.R.’s grandson (now wouldn’t THAT be something to see?). Some people on the online forums are outraged, and think that only material produced by Tolkien himself or his own designated successors can be considered “canon.” 

But I’m using his notes, I complain. Why doesn’t the estate understand? We love the professor’s works, and we want to work together to make the best damned LotR novels ever! After all, I’ve read everything Tolkien ever wrote and I’m incorporating all of it into my novels! Doesn’t that make them “canonical”? Besides, New Line Cinema now "owns" LotR! Tolkien’s estate “sold” it! They have abandoned all right to contribute, and should just “walk away.”

Who’s right here? From a purely legal standpoint, if I have a right to produce anything involving LotR and its characters that I want, including novels, I can go ahead and do it. If I want to decide that for a while Aragorn tries out the gay bdsm lifestyle, or that Sam finds another Ring of Power and becomes the new Dark Lord, I can do it. If I want to write a soft-core porn story about Eowyn and her stable boy, I can. But what I write is never, ever going to be considered a true and permanent part of the LotR setting. I'll just be another fanboy with a word processor.

Ethically and morally, however, just because I CAN do something does that mean that I SHOULD? Ethically, am I obligated to contact the Tolkien estate, explain what I’m doing, and ask for their response? After all, I profess infinite love and respect for JRRT and his stories. As creator, isn’t he or his designated successor entitled to at least a modicum of respect and professional courtesy? And if they say “Well, we appreciate your enthusiasm for our venerable predecessor’s works, old boy, but we would really prefer if you didn’t do this, dontcha know?” shouldn’t I reconsider what I’m doing and possibly just go back to working on games?

Of course that’s not what happened. Despite my avowed love for LotR and my respect for its creator, my enthusiasm got the better of me and I completely ignored the most minimally polite and considerate behavior (i.e. at least telling the creator or his family that I’m using his material and asking for their blessing). I went ahead and announced it, and it didn’t sit well. Chastened, I admit to my lack of professionalism and offer to work things out with JRR’s estate, face-to-face. Come on out. I’ll buy you a brat and we’ll knock back a couple of cool’n’frosties at TGI Friday’s!

To my chagrin, Tolkien’s heirs not only reject my offer, they then take my extended hand and chop it off at the wrist. In fact, they’re pretty rude about it. They post a response on Usenet saying that they’ll never work with me, never give their seal of approval, and if I want to go ahead and print my wretched novels, they will never, ever be considered “canon” and anything that I publish will just be more bloody “fan” fiction. I can publish them, they’ll have covers and page numbers and everything, but they’re never going to be “official” parts of the LotR universe. And oh, yes -- I smell bad, too.

Now what do I do? Should I reconsider what I’m doing, and say “Hey! Maybe I DID go a little too far. Maybe what I publish will never be accepted by the fans, never be incorporated as canon, and will – worse than that – serve only to piss off and alienate the family of J.R.R. Tolkien, whom I have repeatedly claimed to love, admire and respect. I mean, they’re being real jerks about it, but I guess despite their lack of tact, they’re really in the right, and given that they’re the stewards of the creator, I should respect their wishes.”? Or should I publish and be damned, since I’ve got a right to and Tolkien’s estate doesn’t “own” LotR anymore anyway?

Consider that if you love and respect a creative effort, you might want to extend some of that respect to its creator (even if the creator might be an insensitive brute who excoriates you on a Usenet forum). And if you still think you have the right to go ahead and do whatever you feel like doing, creator be damned, then I would like to talk to you about collaborating on “Koran: The Roleplaying Game.”

Our creations are our children. With all due respect (and please forgive any bluntness here; my goal is not to make any enemies), I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are. Come back and say that after you have created something as lasting and impressive as Babylon 5 and perhaps we can talk. But if you have, and truly understand how a creator feels, I suspect your attitude might be somewhat different.

Peace,
Anthony Pryor


----------



## Ranger REG (May 25, 2006)

Regarding morality and ethics of one's own creative property even if he legally sold it ... yes, JMS have greater influence among his fans as to what is or isn't proper for his franchise works. As someone who cited earlier in this thread about the late great Gene Roddenberry when he declared _Star Trek V_ (the film in which Williams Shatner directed) apocryphal, many fans have accepted his words over Paramount, the legal owner of the franchise.

Well, I don't know the legal extent of what Mongoose and Matthew Sprange can do, but JMS could pretty much let the _B5_ fans know that this isn't proper and influence their buying decision. I'm not saying that his fans will follow him blindly, but his words will carry weight.

I hope that Mongoose goes beyond legal precedents and try to bridge a communication with JMS.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (May 25, 2006)

ssspaladin said:
			
		

> Our creations are our children. With all due respect (and please forgive any bluntness here; my goal is not to make any enemies), I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are. Come back and say that after you have created something as lasting and impressive as Babylon 5 and perhaps we can talk. But if you have, and truly understand how a creator feels, I suspect your attitude might be somewhat different.




Personally, I'd hardly consider something like 'Babylon 5' "lasting and impressive", but tastes vary. The original 'Star Trek' was lasting, maybe, but in a hundred years they'll all be answers in 'Trivial Pursuit -- 2106 Edition'.

The fact is, Mongoose's business relationship is with WB, not him.  If Mongoose has violated the licensing agreement (or, more to the point if WB has assigned rights to Mongoose they shouldn't), that's what lawyers are for.

The first thing any artist should learn is how to take criticism.  The second thing they should learn is that once they let their 'child' out into the world, it's no longer purely theirs.  I knew a couple painters, for instance.  One could not stand going to showings of his work, because it drives him nuts when people saw something entirely different in his work than he intended.  The other loved talking to people as they perused the gallery, because she got a thrill out of seeing how different people interpreted the art.   Both of them, though, have said that if the person who buys it takes it home and let's their kid fingerpaint over it, it's no big deal.  If they didn't want to let it go, they wouldn't have sold the painting.

Assuming Mongoose is following the letter of their agreement with WB, they have no obligation, moral, ethical or otherwise, to consult with JMS.  Mongoose is the creator now, or co-creator anyway, and if they want to take  B5 and metaphorically fingerpaint over it, that's their perogative.  It would be a courtesy, I suppose, to consult the original author, but given the tone of that post and the reputation of the person in question for being hard to get along with, courtesy might be wasted.


----------



## kingpaul (May 25, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...



I thought Matt did that because he'd been trying, unsuccessfully, to reach JMS for some time.


----------



## Darrin Drader (May 25, 2006)

Imagine you've always aspired to be a novelist. Imagine that you achieve some success ina  related field, but it still isn't novels. Imagine that of all the different fictional universes, there is one that really speaks to you. You love the brilliance behind it, you tape all the episodes, you learn the backstory, you eventually buy the DVDs. Imagine that you consider the guy behind it to be kind of an impersonal mentor - someone who has shown you how to spin a ripping good yarn, and do it better than anyone else is who is working in a similar vein (OK, that may be stretching things a bit far, but I will say that B5 is better than Star Trek on so many levels). Then imagine that not only does your dream of becoming a novelist come true, but you're able to do so in the universe you love so much. Now imagine that the guy whose style you have partially modeled your own style after, your mentor, says that the people you're working with are jerks and your novel doesn't amount to anything in the grand scheme.

Yeah, welcome to my world.

Regardless of the bickering at the top, I'm just going to write the best damn Babylon 5 story I can, and I'll let the powers that be take care of the rest.


----------



## Ranger REG (May 25, 2006)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I thought Matt did that because he'd been trying, unsuccessfully, to reach JMS for some time.



Maybe JMS is a RPG-hater. It's not like it's the first time we've been giving this kind of mistreatment from the rest of the world.


----------



## DaveMage (May 25, 2006)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Regardless of the bickering at the top, I'm just going to write the best damn Babylon 5 story I can, and I'll let the powers that be take care of the rest.




You could dedicate the novel to Claudia Christian....

Edit - or even better, Gene Roddenberry.     


I'm kidding!!!!!!!


----------



## DaveMage (May 25, 2006)

ssspaladin said:
			
		

> And if 2200 words is too damned long and marks me as a stupid n00b, then I guess I’ll wear my noobiness proudly.
> 
> Peace,
> Anthony Pryor




Somehow I can't see you as being described as a n00b on a board dedicated to D&D....


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 25, 2006)

ssspaladin said:
			
		

> Hi – I haven’t posted on these boards in a long time, but given my interest in the issues being discussed here, I feel some compulsion to weigh in.




I can agree with the general tone of your post but you are in greivious error in many portions of your analogy. The water is murky, but it is possible to tease some of the "stipulated facts" out of the slime and those contradict your POV at many turns.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 25, 2006)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Regardless of the bickering at the top, I'm just going to write the best damn Babylon 5 story I can, and I'll let the powers that be take care of the rest.





I wondered who would be left holding the "ugly bag" at the end of the day. Best of luck.


----------



## DaveMage (May 25, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> You could dedicate the novel to Claudia Christian....
> 
> Edit - or even better, Gene Roddenberry.





Or...

Dedicated to the Cast and Crew of Deep Space 9.



I'll stop now.


----------



## sniffles (May 25, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Somehow I can't see you as being described as a n00b on a board dedicated to D&D....



And I didn't even know he had a forum membership! Jerk.  
[edit: ssspaladin, I mean, not you, DaveMage!]


----------



## Aesthetic Monk (May 25, 2006)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> The first thing any artist should learn is how to take criticism.  The second thing they should learn is that once they let their 'child' out into the world, it's no longer purely theirs.  I knew a couple painters, for instance.  One could not stand going to showings of his work, because it drives him nuts when people saw something entirely different in his work than he intended.  The other loved talking to people as they perused the gallery, because she got a thrill out of seeing how different people interpreted the art.




Interpretation in this sense, though, is beside the point. We're not talking about a general "thick skinnedness." No one's questioning whether someone's got the right to like or not like B5, to love Season 5 or think it was a big letdown, to write B5 fanfic, or just in general to have a different aesthetic sensibility. What we're closer to talking about is ownership and canonicity. I don't think that JMS has questioned anyone's right to interpret B5 as he or she sees fit; it's a question mostly of whether you can label your interpretation as canon.



> Both of them, though, have said that if the person who buys it takes it home and let's their kid fingerpaint over it, it's no big deal.  If they didn't want to let it go, they wouldn't have sold the painting.




Messing around with something you buy for your own private enjoyment (or vandalism) is one thing. But I doubt your friends would be OK with someone fingerpainting on the painting then getting it hung in a different gallery and claiming that it's an "authorized interpretation" of the original painting based on the fact that it contains elements of the original.



> Assuming Mongoose is following the letter of their agreement with WB, they have no obligation, moral, ethical or otherwise, to consult with JMS.




I suspect we won't convince each other on this. I know how I'd want to be treated were I the creator, which in some philosophical systems suggests the presence of a moral/ethical issue.



> Mongoose is the creator now, or co-creator anyway, and if they want to take  B5 and metaphorically fingerpaint over it, that's their perogative.  It would be a courtesy, I suppose, to consult the original author, but given the tone of that post and the reputation of the person in question for being hard to get along with, courtesy might be wasted.




I have no idea what the licensing agreements look like, and I wouldn't be qualified to interpret them anyway even if I had seen them. The issue may ultimately be legal as much as anything else. I do see a moral/ethical issue here, at least in the abstract.


----------



## WizarDru (May 25, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Maybe JMS is a RPG-hater. It's not like it's the first time we've been giving this kind of mistreatment from the rest of the world.




One would think that an RPG-hater would have prevented one RPG from being from his work, let alone TWO.  

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was the whole 'canon' issue.  One stated goal JMS claimed, years ago, was how the B5 books and extended media would be canon.  Unlike the Star Trek novels, which were always disavowed by Paramount, the books were going to be approved by JMS as canon.  This proved out when elements from the Psi Corps trilogy and Technomage trilogy would also appear in the unfilmed scripts for Crusade.

I'm under the impression the issue about use of the work, it's about trying to represent JMS as being involved with the project and that by virtue of that, the material is considered canon.  Especially when JMS is currently working on a new B5 writing project of his own.

My suspicion is that this is a case of WB's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, which was a frequent problem for the TV series both during and after production.


----------



## frandelgearslip (May 25, 2006)

How is this even a discussion, Mongoose went out of bounds several ways.

Mongoose owns the rights and can use them however they wish which JMS never denied.  But you cannot lie and claim a person is involved when they never were.  Or make false claims about outlines that don't in fact even exist.  As somebody mentioned earlier the del ray books used outlines provided by JMS.  Mongoose was trying to pull a fast one and pretend that they had outlines too, that there books had the same involvement of JMS as the del ray books.  Scripts are not outlines.


----------



## kingpaul (May 25, 2006)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was the whole 'canon' issue.



Matt responded to this on the news group thread. He said that WB said his books could be considered "canon" a couple months ago, and have now stated that they'd rather them be considered "official".


----------



## jeffh (May 25, 2006)

frandelgearslip said:
			
		

> How is this even a discussion, Mongoose went out of bounds several ways.
> 
> Mongoose owns the rights and can use them however they wish which JMS never denied.  But you cannot lie and claim a person is involved when they never were.  Or make false claims about outlines that don't in fact even exist.  As somebody mentioned earlier the del ray books used outlines provided by JMS.  Mongoose was trying to pull a fast one and pretend that they had outlines too, that there books had the same involvement of JMS as the del ray books.  Scripts are not outlines.



Something that's been mentioned multiple times, by people who have heard the original podcast, even though 90% of the people responding to this thread have completely ignored it - *Mongoose made no such representation*. According to folks who have heard the podcast, they didn't actually say JMS was involved, they said they'd like him to be. That and an imprecise use of the word "outline", combined with some sloppy questioning, is all this is originally about.

Moreover, it was JMS who first publically commented on this, accusing Mongoose of misrepresenting his involvement, _not _Mongoose. Only _after _that - indeed, in response to it, and apparently only after trying several other ways of getting hold of him - did Matt launch the "Open plea" thread on Usenet.

But don't anyone let pesky, inconvenient things like facts get in the way of a good rant.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 25, 2006)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> My suspicion is that this is a case of WB's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, which was a frequent problem for the TV series both during and after production.



Which would seem to be a WB problem, not a Mongoose problem.



			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Assuming Mongoose is following the letter of their agreement with WB, they have no obligation, moral, ethical or otherwise, to consult with JMS. Mongoose is the creator now, or co-creator anyway, and if they want to take B5 and metaphorically fingerpaint over it, that's their perogative.



Bingo.



			
				ssspaladin said:
			
		

> I’m so excited about the prospect of continuing the heroic saga of Middle Earth that I announce it at a gaming convention. “We’ve got several outlines by J.R.R. Tolkien,” I say. “We’ve also got all the notes he wrote. ...



Oh? And how did the licensee _get_ those notes? In any case, your "analogy" is completely out of line.



> I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are.



Irrelevant, if the creator truly sold the rights. Did he, or didn't he?


----------



## Elf Witch (May 25, 2006)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Imagine you've always aspired to be a novelist. Imagine that you achieve some success ina  related field, but it still isn't novels. Imagine that of all the different fictional universes, there is one that really speaks to you. You love the brilliance behind it, you tape all the episodes, you learn the backstory, you eventually buy the DVDs. Imagine that you consider the guy behind it to be kind of an impersonal mentor - someone who has shown you how to spin a ripping good yarn, and do it better than anyone else is who is working in a similar vein (OK, that may be stretching things a bit far, but I will say that B5 is better than Star Trek on so many levels). Then imagine that not only does your dream of becoming a novelist come true, but you're able to do so in the universe you love so much. Now imagine that the guy whose style you have partially modeled your own style after, your mentor, says that the people you're working with are jerks and your novel doesn't amount to anything in the grand scheme.
> 
> Yeah, welcome to my world.
> 
> Regardless of the bickering at the top, I'm just going to write the best damn Babylon 5 story I can, and I'll let the powers that be take care of the rest.




Good Luck and I look forward to reading your novel. I have been hoping someone would wrap up the Crusade storyline in the form of novels. I hated when a show gets canned with so much story left untold and novels seem one way to go to solve this.


----------



## Ranger REG (May 26, 2006)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was the whole 'canon' issue.  One stated goal JMS claimed, years ago, was how the B5 books and extended media would be canon.  Unlike the Star Trek novels, which were always disavowed by Paramount,...



Not just Paramount but us _Trek_ fans as well. Don't get me wrong. Some are great reads (like _The Final Reflection_ by John M. Ford) but it isn't canon, even if a piece of the novel is mentioned on film.




			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> the books were going to be approved by JMS as canon.  This proved out when elements from the Psi Corps trilogy and Technomage trilogy would also appear in the unfilmed scripts for Crusade.



If he think this approach is good for his franchise, then more power to him, and would cause less confusion among _B5_ fans. It still doesn't make it superior to the established franchises before this.




			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm under the impression the issue about use of the work, it's about trying to represent JMS as being involved with the project and that by virtue of that, the material is considered canon.  Especially when JMS is currently working on a new B5 writing project of his own.



Well, then... Will JMS approve any novel written or printed from Mongoose? Will he do it for free? If not, how much will it cost Mongoose to have their story approved for publishing as a _B5_ novel?




			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> My suspicion is that this is a case of WB's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, which was a frequent problem for the TV series both during and after production.



So, what can be done to smooth things over? Is JMS a forgiving man? Can Mongoose bring JMS to their side because outside the boundaries of legal obligation, JMS still carries weight regarding the _B5_ franchise (of course, not among some of us, but them doe-eyed dedicated fans).


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 26, 2006)

jeffh said:
			
		

> According to folks who have heard the podcast, they didn't actually say JMS was involved, they said they'd like him to be.





It's inferred.  When you say you're working from someone's outline, it sounds like they've turned in work -- not you've rummaged around online for his unfilmed scripts and notes.

Arguments over the definition of "outline" aside, it can't be denied Mongoose was attempting to deceive people.  They said his direct input was "less and less" nowadays.  He's never had direct input to any of their products.  He wrote the introduction to the first B5 book talking about his past experiences with rpgs, and that is it.

Mongoose lied.


----------



## Yellow Sign (May 26, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It's inferred. When you say you're working from someone's outline, it sounds like they've turned in work -- *not you've rummaged around online for his unfilmed scripts and notes.*




Didn't Warner Brothers *give* them those scripts to use?


----------



## WizarDru (May 26, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> If he think this approach is good for his franchise, then more power to him, and would cause less confusion among _B5_ fans. It still doesn't make it superior to the established franchises before this.




Huh?  I was simply pointing out that JMS was attempting to make any license part of the canon; one reinforcing the other...which was why he would feel strongly about someone claiming something was canon when he thought it wasn't.  I don't recall saying anything about B5 being better than Star Trek....especially since I don't think that it is.  I own some Star Trek novels, too, you know.  My personal favorites are written by Peter David, such as the one that posits that the Doomsday Machine was actually constructed to fight the Borg.  My wife likes some of the Dr. Who novelizations...and lord knows the issue of canon with those things is a tricky thing.  I was merely pointing out my perception of JMS motivation.




> So, what can be done to smooth things over? Is JMS a forgiving man? Can Mongoose bring JMS to their side because outside the boundaries of legal obligation, JMS still carries weight regarding the _B5_ franchise (of course, not among some of us, but them doe-eyed dedicated fans).




No idea.  Frankly, I don't care much either way.  I picked up the two trilogies...but only because I was interested in the history of the PsiCorps and the Technomages (and really like the character of Galen).  I've never picked up the B5 RPG and have never been really taken with Mongoose as a publisher (the quintessential series put me off of their work).  So, simply put, my opinion probably shouldn't sway either of them, as I'm not likely to be a customer of either of them.

I think both parties are partly wrong and partly right.  JMS is overly offended and Mongoose is perhaps a trifle too cavalier.  Overall, it looks like a tempest in a teapot.


----------



## jeffh (May 26, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It's inferred.



Ironically, you probably _meant _"implied", but actually ended up using the right word.

It is, indeed, a conclusion people are coming to after the fact, _not _something that's 100% clear in the original source.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 26, 2006)

Yellow Sign said:
			
		

> Didn't Warner Brothers *give* them those scripts to use?




They never come out and say one way or another.  The notes and scripts were stored in the same area online.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 26, 2006)

jeffh said:
			
		

> It is, indeed, a conclusion people are coming to after the fact, _not _something that's 100% clear in the original source.




The reason Mongoose is coming off as deceitful in this is because of how vague they were, always in their favor.  When the writer himself has to correct your statements to disconnect himself with your work, you're giving the wrong impression.


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 27, 2006)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> The reason Mongoose is coming off as deceitful in this is because of how vague they were, always in their favor.  When the writer himself has to correct your statements to disconnect himself with your work, you're giving the wrong impression.




You know, there is another explaination in all of this -- It's possible that Mongoose was trying to be diplomatic (something that Straczynski doesn't seem to have much interest in). I can imagine that if I were having a tense sitiuation with someone, and was asked about it publicly, I might respond in the same vague terms. Saying we have "less and less" input from Straczynski allows both us and him to save face, versus saying "He's a twit and we can't work with him! Good riddance!"

From what I gather from all of this, Straczynski is a bit of murcurial temperment, and I would guess is hard to work with in any circumstances. He apparently wasn't eager to let the diplomatic approach suceed in papering over the differences.


----------



## MojoGM (Jun 1, 2006)

JMS is acting like a jerk in my opinon.

Good riddance to him, Warner should just let Mongoose do what they do with B5 and we can keep getting good products.

Sure, he created it, but if Legend of the Rangers is any indication of JMS's storytelling abilities now, B5 is better off without him now.

And for the record I did hear the original podcast, and Matt NEVER said JMS was giving input on the novels.  He VERY politely said that JMS is a very busy man with a lot of projects and that they'd like to get input from him.  

Sounded to me like they were just trying to be nice.  I would not want to work with him.


----------

