# Why do people hate Elfkind?



## Byronic (Jul 10, 2008)

So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).
Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?


And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?


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## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

Because almost every fantasy series has elves of some type? 

Because 3e had this habit of "Elves that live by a river- we'll call them Elf (River) and put them in an MM!" subrace bloat. While many races had them, elves were the most guilty (I believe there were 18 elven subraces by the end of 3.5). 

Because many books pretty much crammed down your throat how awesome elves are. 

(Granted, I hate dwarves more, but these are likely reasons)



> And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?



So what you're saying is that if I don't like Meat Loaf, I should use mustard instead of ketchup in the recipe? Why do I _have_ to like them? Or use them, at all?


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## Ourph (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't mind elves, I just don't see any need for more than one flavor of them.  And I really don't see any purpose behind continuing to include the stupid half-elf.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jul 11, 2008)

Meat Loaf had good stuff in the seventies.

It's not elves that created elf-hate.

It was elf-players.


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## aurance (Jul 11, 2008)

I think there's a certain complex from them being portrayed as better humans than humans. (Which, in Tolkien's world, was actually true.)


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## Staffan (Jul 11, 2008)

Two main things:

1. They have often been portrayed as the "we're better than you" race, especially with splatbooks like Complete Elves' Handbook from 2e.

2. About a bazillion subraces. Humans are supposed to be the adaptable ones, so how come there's an elf subrace to beat the humans in every single way?


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 11, 2008)

It's a question of math.  Going by all editions (except the current), how is it that a species which can live 600 years and are only able to mate once they reach the age of 150 be able to survive the onslaught of "lesser" species which are known for their expansionist tendencies who are able to out populate elves long before two elves can reproduce?

That is why people hate elves.  Their continual existence is illogical especially considering that goblins, humans, orcs, etc are likely to slash and burn an elvin forest to the ground after their first clash with the "fair-folk."


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## Derren (Jul 11, 2008)

Elf hate probably comes from the many elf fanboys who insist the elves, no matter in which fantasy world, are better at everything than humans.
And wherever there is a fanboy there is also a hater.




Relique du Madde said:


> Their continual existence is illogical especially considering that goblins, humans, orcs, etc are likely to slash and burn an elvin forest to the ground after their first clash with the "fair-folk."




I actually calculated that in 3E even dragons would reproduce faster than elves (before the FR splatbook came out which contradicted the PHB and said that elves mature as fast as humans do)


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## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

It's because people say stuff like "elfkind."  Huh?  What's wrong with just saying "why do people hate elves?"

Elf lovers are full of that kind of pretentiousness all the time.


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## nerfherder (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> It's because people say stuff like "elfkind."  Huh?  What's wrong with just saying "why do people hate elves?"
> 
> Elf lovers are full of that kind of pretentiousness all the time.




Yeah, everyone knows it's "elvenkind", or, in elven script,


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 11, 2008)

As others have said, it's that perception of "Anything humans can do, elves can do better, and have been doing it better for thousands of years."


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## Nifft (Jul 11, 2008)

I love elf-kind!

They're the primary antagonists of my next campaign! 

Cheers, -- N


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## Merkuri (Jul 11, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> As others have said, it's that perception of "Anything humans can do, elves can do better, and have been doing it better for thousands of years."




That's my reason, but hate is a strong word.

This was the reason I put down the Eragon books.  At the end of the second book I was horrified when 



Spoiler



the main character, instead of somehow overcoming all of his human handicaps with wit or perseverance or something else that the underdog always does, he actually has to become an elf to have any chance of winning.


  It totally spoiled the series for me and I have no desire to read the third book.

I actually like how they split elves into two races in 4e.  It makes them a little less "I'm good at everything and better than you!"  It kinda spoiled an idea I had for a campaign setting that revolved around the idea that elves were not all that they seemed.  But overall I think it made the game better, so I'm all for it.


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## Ranger REG (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).
> Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?
> 
> 
> And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?



Not many people hate elves, unless you're a gnome fan.


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## Terwox (Jul 11, 2008)

I like elves... although in 3E terms, I sort of wish they were a high level adjustment race.

Like how the drow are level 11+ foes in 4E.  Just do that w/ elves.  But, people want to play them, so they had to balance them out...


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## CoatRackOfDoom (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't hate elves.  OH, wait...  I'm thinking of Vulcans.

Elves... elves... those pointy-eared guys?  meh.  Elf chicks, now.  They're hawt.


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## DandD (Jul 11, 2008)

I dislike D&D-elves. I actually like The Dark Eye-Elves (although the more they copied from D&D, the worse it became), or Shadowrun-Elves (except those dumb meta-variants, but they're noted as deviant freaks), or other elf-races in other games. 

It's just that in D&D, they are totally illogical (needing a hundred years to mature, in game terms meaning to be level 1... what?), and the game developers crammed a ton of absurd-idiotic subraces into the books (I'll not start to list them again. I'm tired of it). And then there was the really bad background lore (I did read "The complete book of elves" of AD&D 2nd ed). 

Toning down those bajillion elf-types into four races is a start. Hopefully, they get reduced to half again (elf and half-elf), and then later, only one elf-race remains (elf). Why can't eldar eladrin, wood elf and dark elfdrow not be simply something culturally, like in Warhammer? Oh well, time will tell.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).
> Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?
> 
> 
> And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?




Why are you interested in this question?

I ask because I'd hate to think that someone was just stirring, yet it isn't clear to me what you hope to get out of this discussion. 

From the way you phrase the question it doesn't seem that you hate races of elves, and although some people do, other people don't - which sets up the potential argument.

Even your closing clause isn't really helpful, since I imagine that most people who do hate elves have already changed them until they like them (or ruled them out of the game, or whatever).

So please, if there is more to your question please state it openly and without attempting to lay judgements against the people you are talking too!

Thanks


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## Silvercat Moonpaw (Jul 11, 2008)

Possibly because elves don't have……………I can't find the right word for it.  I want to call it "primal factor" a sort of deep down aspect that shows they're still linked to the animal world (using evolutionary-type language, "they're still mortal" is another way to say it).  Dwarves and orcs have chest thumping passion; gnomes and halflings have laughing sneakiness.  Elves?

They hug trees.

Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of fun.


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## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> Possibly because elves don't have……………I can't find the right word for it.  I want to call it "primal factor" a sort of deep down aspect that shows they're still linked to the animal world (using evolutionary-type language, "they're still mortal" is another way to say it).  Dwarves and orcs have chest thumping passion; gnomes and halflings have sing sneakiness.  Elves?
> 
> They hug trees.
> 
> Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of fun.



I'd argue that elves are all about the sex. Given how we have a race of half-elves, and all those sub races, and well, I won't get into the elf porn on the internet...


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 11, 2008)

They have orc souls.

Otherkin.


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## TheEvil (Jul 11, 2008)

Definately Complete Book of Elves from 2nd Ed. and people who play elves like the biggest stuck up pr!cks the universe has ever known (often on advice of the aforementioned Complete Book of Elves).


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## DandD (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, unfortunately, D&D-humans and D&-dragons are also quite capable to create strange freak-offsprings. 

Ranging from half-orcs, to half-troll-half-red-dragons, half-ogers, half-elementals, half-dragon-half-demon, and so fort. 

D&D, the porn game...


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## Remathilis (Jul 11, 2008)

SilvercatMoonpaw2 said:


> Possibly because elves don't have……………I can't find the right word for it.  I want to call it "primal factor" a sort of deep down aspect that shows they're still linked to the animal world (using evolutionary-type language, "they're still mortal" is another way to say it).  Dwarves and orcs have chest thumping passion; gnomes and halflings have laughing sneakiness.  Elves?
> 
> They hug trees.
> 
> Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of fun.




4e elves are all wild and primal now. Hunters with deep passions. Quick to act, quick in movement.

Its those Eladrin that sit in their literal Ivory Towers and contemplate their navels now!.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).




Because there are hundreds of elven subraces but dozens (or less) for orcs, gnomes, dwarves, etc. And many subraces (elven or not) are just mind-numbingly stupid. (There are more elven subraces, so more stupid subraces, and more subraces that any individual won't like.)

Subraces add complexity to a game that doesn't need them.

In 3.x (and, I suspect, after a few years of 4e) subraces will just exist as a form of cheese. Anyone remember the "wild elf"? (Be an elf with no Con penalty!)

Wild elves are a cultural group. They might tend to have higher Con scores and lower Int scores than most other elves, but then uncivilized humans may experience the same thing without needing an actual subrace to describe them. (Similarly, elves who wear togas and live in crystal spires might tend to be more intelligent and more frail than other elves; humans or dwarves who live in such scholar cities wouldn't get a subrace, but such elves would be called moon elves, gray elves, sun elves, or whatever.)

The elfitis problem even extended to lycanthropes. Elven werewolves (lythari) had different alignments than other werewolves and were a distinct culture (for no good reason), even though they used the expected stats and thus were not mechanically jumbling or broken. Why do they exist? Because an author who liked elves wanted to create their own elven culture (instead of just creating their own town or something). Sheesh.

Honestly, I would dump eladrin except they have cool racial abilities (and it's too complicated to actually ditch them, unfortunately). So in my campaign, there will only be elves, eladrin and drow. No aquatic elves, and any winged elves would be a "mutation" that could be found in other species.



> Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?




Not really. He made elves "better than thou" but that's not a big part of the elfitis problem*. Tolkien's Middle Earth only had Noldor and Sindar (the Vanyar never returned to Middle Earth), which are the equivalent of eladrin and elves, respectively. Tolkien had no drow, although there was a single pale-skinned evil elf called "the dark elf".

Elves like Legolas were down to Earth (a big deal, considering he was an elven prince).

*It's part of *another* problem.



> And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?




By eliminating most subraces? I believe plenty of DMs have done just that.

Think of it this way. Someone doesn't like strawberry ice cream, and wants to buy a dozen buckets of ice cream. Which makes more sense, changing the strawberry recipe until they like it (at which point it isn't strawberry anymore), or just buying a dozen flavors they actually like?


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## VictorC (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm going to say Will Ferrell.


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## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

An elf killed my pa.


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## Xyxox (Jul 11, 2008)

I ran an all elf campaign when 2E first came out. It was cool then. It got boring when everybody and their brother did it.


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## lutecius (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't think "people" hate elves. It was kind of cool to bash them at some point, and I can see how some elf fans may be annoying but I think elf haters are still a minority.

Now that high elves are split between eladrin/gray elves and wood/wild elves, that's less silly sub-races in the default world, but that's actually one *more* elf race in the phb. I doubt they would have done that if people really hated elves.

On the whole I like elves (not the new eladrin look, but the size increase is nice). I used to hate dwarves and dwarf players. Now, I would never play one but don't mind them so much. My new pet hate is dragonborn and strangely, I never realized how much I hated halfling too before the 4e previews.


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## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> An elf killed my pa.




An elf once touched me in a very private place.


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## aurance (Jul 11, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Why are you interested in this question?




Actually, I was curious about this phenomenon as well, and this thread has been pretty informative.


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## WayneLigon (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).




Jealousy.

In seriousness, I think a majority of elf-hate was caused by the astoundingly broken Elf handbook for 2E. If elves were not better than everyone else before, they certainly were after that.


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## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

I actually never played 2e.  

To be honest with you, elves just kinda represent to me all the things about D&D that I find tired and boring and in need of being shaken up.  I don't hate them per se (it's not like they're gnomes or something); I just have little use for them.


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## Ahglock (Jul 11, 2008)

WayneLigon said:


> Jealousy.
> 
> In seriousness, I think a majority of elf-hate was caused by the astoundingly broken Elf handbook for 2E. If elves were not better than everyone else before, they certainly were after that.




I think this was the beginning of the serious ant-elf happenings at least for D&D.  When elves were better stonemasons and armor smiths than dwarves I think even people on the fence started looking for torches and pitchforks to carry on there next D&D character.


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## Dykstrav (Jul 11, 2008)

Honestly... I think it has alot to do with the way certain players choose to play elves. Many players can appreciate and empathize with a human character, or an earthy, zest-for-life type of dwarf who smites foemen with zeal then drinks through the night with abandon.

In my experience, many players that choose to play elves like the psychodrama and attention angle, and will go to great lengths to explain to the last detail how their elven princess has braided silvery hair and violet eyes. If none of the player characters are impressed with their beauty or charm, they will go on to explain that Annistrianna Thistleraven Nightwhisper Winterbreeze IV is the last elven princess descended from a legendary sorcerer/druid that slew a mighty demon lord and ruled a massive kingdom or whatever, and then want to get snotty when the other players are still more interested in the events of the campaign than their uber-cool character.

In short... I think it's more to do with certain players than with the proliferation of subraces, although that does get on my nerves too.


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## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> An elf once touched me in a very private place.




In your treehouse?


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## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

Ahglock said:


> ...ant-elf...




Don't tell me they've created a race of ant elves, too! 


I don't care for all the subraces of the past. For example, someone saw "sea elves" in Tolkien and created elves with gills, apparently without actually reading what Tolkien meant.

Elves in spaaace is another faux pas, although Spelljammer was lame even without space elves.

And then there were "wood elves" and "wild elves." Who was behind that decision?

Anyway, as much as I dislike the 4e ruleset, I give the designers props for what they did with elves. (Although the name "eladrin" is lame.)


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## Gothmog (Jul 11, 2008)

1. Elf fanboys are the most annoying creatures on earth- makes you want to hate all over the elves.

2. To me personally, elves rub me completely the wrong way.  They are flighty, capricious, highly emotional, self-important, self-absorbed, and condescending towards others.  I've never seen elves presented in any campaign setting in such a way that they wouldn't be more appealing as spitted and roasting over an orc campfire.

3. Elves are tired and OLD.  Everyone and his brother used to play elves, and they are always done the same way in every setting (yes, even Eberron elves are the same insufferable twits).  

Oddly enough, I LOVE dwarves.  Maybe its because I admire the traits of the dwarves, and the RP possibilities of dwarves aren't so stilted or elitist fanboy power/adulation fantasies.

And why don't I "fix" elves?  I've tried, but the bastards keep reproducing anyways.


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## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> 3. Elves are tired and OLD.  Everyone and his brother used to play elves, and they are always done the same way in every setting (yes, even Eberron elves are the same insufferable twits).




Not in Birthright.


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## taliesin15 (Jul 11, 2008)

You can't have Elvis without Elves.

I've never encountered this attitude outside of ENWorld in the almost 30 years of gaming I've been involved with. Now hating the subraces that have come along since the first Monster Manual, that's another story. As a DM I've used Drow once, and it didn't really do that much for the campaign. All the subraces, splatbooks, and mostly useless products out there I think is what's causing this attitude. 

IMC Elves are more like the Tolkien Elves, and they along with Gnomes are the center of the milieu and by far the most powerful humanoid/demi-human races.

FWIW, I tend to present "Wood Elves" and "Grey Elves" as simply regionally separate from the High Elves, all three speaking a related tongue, but each with a distinct dialect.


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## KingCrab (Jul 11, 2008)

They're always up in the trees and stuff causing trouble.


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## Banshee16 (Jul 11, 2008)

Terwox said:


> I like elves... although in 3E terms, I sort of wish they were a high level adjustment race.
> 
> Like how the drow are level 11+ foes in 4E.  Just do that w/ elves.  But, people want to play them, so they had to balance them out...




Why would 3.5 elves need a level adjustment?  They're less powerful than other +0 races, such as dwarves....and probably comparable to haflings and gnomes.

Banshee


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## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

Banshee16 said:


> Why would 3.5 elves need a level adjustment?  They're less powerful than other +0 races, such as dwarves....and probably comparable to haflings and gnomes.
> 
> Banshee




I believe the poster wants 3.x elves to be given perks to justify a LA.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

1) Too tall

2) Too serious

3) Too numerous

4) Refuse to make me cookies


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## Nadaka (Jul 11, 2008)

Merkuri said:


> That's my reason, but hate is a strong word.
> 
> This was the reason I put down the Eragon books.  At the end of the second book I was horrified when
> 
> ...




Tell me about it. In my campaign world, elves are the unfortunate side effect of an experiment by the ancient necromancer kings. They have a touch of death in them.That is why their con is low, their senses keen, their lives immortal, but unable to withstand the madness of ages. These are all traits they acquired from their touch of death. And they vehemently and religiously deny this fact, to the point that they fake having some mystical connection with nature.


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## Cryptos (Jul 11, 2008)

I would say that the best theory around is the proliferation of elf sub-races:  Grey Elf, Moon Elf, Golden or Sun Elf, High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Wild Elf, Aquatic Elf, Half-Elf, and so on.

That's enough to give anyone nightmares.

I was happy with the treatment of elves in fourth edition, if only because it was with the understanding that they were front-loading all the elves into the first PHB.  I think that someone somewhere from WotC had claimed that the Eladrin and Elves, along with the half-elves and dark elves, would be it for playable elf races, that essentially they were folding the nature aspects into "elf" and the high-minded intelligent fey aspects into "Eladrin", and the evil aspects into "drow", and that would be it.

Whether that remains the case throughout 4e remains to be seen.  I spent a lot of time repeating that claim, that this was all the elf we were going to get, before 4e was released, to people that were attacking the fact that already 3/8ths of the races were "elf."  So hopefully that remains true.

I guess we'll find out with Forgotten Realms, as I think that's where a lot of the original blame lies for the elf explosion.  If that change doesn't carry over to their premiere campaign setting, then a lot of the other elf subraces will probably leak back into 4e as a whole.


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## Jack99 (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).
> Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?




Doubt it. I have read LotR in 3 different languages, and I still love elves, drows, and now eladrin.

For me, they are the quintessential essence of fantasy, along with dragons...

I did hate pretty-boy in the movie though, he just sucked.


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## blargney the second (Jul 11, 2008)

PC race with -2 Con = blargney hates it.

I've got an eladrin warlord in our 4e game, and I'm loving it.
-blarg


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 11, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> 1. Elf fanboys are the most annoying creatures on earth- makes you want to hate all over the elves.
> 
> 2. To me personally, elves rub me completely the wrong way.  They are flighty, capricious, highly emotional, self-important, self-absorbed, and condescending towards others.  I've never seen elves presented in any campaign setting in such a way that they wouldn't be more appealing as spitted and roasting over an orc campfire.
> 
> ...




Odd indeed.  Dwarves fit everyy single one of your complaints, after all.  They are just as tired and old a concept as elves.  Dwarves are a bunchy of greedy, drunken, xenophobic, bitter, miserable jerks who live in crowded dank little s&#t-holes underground.  "I've never seen elves dwarves presented in any campaign setting in such a way that they wouldn't be more appealing as spitted and roasting over an orc campfire."  Of course, Orcs are the masters of barbeque and can make anything smell good over a fire, so maybe it's just that.  And as for fanboys, dwarf fanboys are annoying because they all play out the exact same stereotypes, thinking they're so clever each time.  Of course, there aren't even that many dwarf fanboys (see below).




WayneLigon said:


> Jealousy.




QFT.  The reason so many hate elves is ecause elves as a race are one of the singly most enduring and captivating concepts in all of fantasy, and that just drives some people nuts.  In 3E, dwarves were horribly broken and elves a tad weak, yet I still saw far more elf PCs than dwarf ones, even from powergamers.  And I'm not counting racial variant elves.  core ones alone.  Cause the fact is...dwarves are a lame, boring concept, and no matter how much gold paint you place over turd, it's still turd.

As for the "Baskin Robins" argument, this is a lie.  Someone on the WotC boards did a count of race variants in 3E, and dwarves ended up having more flavors than elves.  So, can we finally drop this insipid complaint?



Whew, ok.  Now then, I like Elves.  I also like Dwarves.  One of my favorite characters was a dwarf cleric that purposefully fit all the dwarf stereotypes (except drinking, none of my characters do that).  It's viscerally fun to play the "low charisma, and proud of it!" jerk who's actually a good guy.  Just like it's sometimes fun to play the aloof elf wizard who thinks the other races are inferior.  I'm just sick of seeing only one of these tropes getting trashed so mercilessly.


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## Riposte (Jul 11, 2008)

While I don't like all of their subraces, my biggest beef with elves would be just how "good" they are at things. This seems to come from Tolkien's original idea of Elves being middle ground between men and gods. It might have worked there, but it doesn't work here.

I don't mean crunch, I mean fluff. Elves (of 3e) are:

1. Attuned with nature. (and fey)
2. Attuned with magic.
3. Live for hundreds of years
4. Highly sophisticated and wise.
5. Some of the greatest archers.
6. Some of the greatest swordsmen(read: warriors).
7. Nimble and swift.
8. Have strong ties with their deity(and pantheon)

It makes me facepalm really.

Of course, this isn't something you can't fix easily.


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## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Elves were balanced at the start of 3.0. Then they started to add "an elf for every class" subraces, so anyone who wanted the perfect whatever had an elven subrace with the right stat mods to pick. Then add all the "reserved for ELVES" prestige classes, and special items and special magic.

Elven Fanservice at its best.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

Cryptos said:


> I guess we'll find out with Forgotten Realms, as I think that's where a lot of the original blame lies for the elf explosion.



If only that were true.

Two words: Valley Elf.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> As for the "Baskin Robins" argument, this is a lie.



You know, for something to be a lie requires intent. And since people on this thread have made this claim, you're accusing them of, well, being liars. I vote another word would go better here, like "myth."


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## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If only that were true.
> 
> Two words: Valley Elf.



Like, gag me with a spoon!


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## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Mall Elves.


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## Ahglock (Jul 11, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> As for the "Baskin Robins" argument, this is a lie.  Someone on the WotC boards did a count of race variants in 3E, and dwarves ended up having more flavors than elves.  So, can we finally drop this insipid complaint?




And as always the racial count argument falls flat due to it missing the entire point.

1.  They usually add anything short into the dwarf grouping, massively padding the numbers.  And they add in lots of races that came late in 3.5 largely put there to show some level of parity with the elf sub-races.  

2. More importantly the complaint is never centered around dwarves, humans etc.  Because the elf pantheon was largely designed to be a player race.  The so called sub-races for all the other races were designed as monsters, which some people played.  


Elves legion of custom player races, dwarves like a couple player races with the same stat bonuses, not the wizard package, the thief package, the fighter package.


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## Reneshat (Jul 11, 2008)

*Elves*

You might as well ask why so many people have irrational things against hippies or the French.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

Reneshat said:


> You might as well ask why so many people have irrational things against hippies or the French.



Most hippies and French people are actually elves.


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## Reneshat (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Most hippies and French people are actually elves.



That's no longer true.  The French are now "Eladrin."


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## Cryptos (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If only that were true.
> 
> Two words: Valley Elf.




_Edit:  I just checked the reference re: Valley Elves in a Dragon magazine from 1982.

Still, it seems like an absurd amount of the subtypes came from FR.

Looking into the article that gave me the reference you were making, on wikipedia, more than half of the page is "Elves in the Forgotten Realms" and features aquatic, winged, dark or drow, lythari, moon, star, sun, wild, and wood elves.
_


----------



## Reneshat (Jul 11, 2008)

*Valley Elf*



Cryptos said:


> _Valley_... _elf_.  I now have a new reason to hate FR with a fiery, burning passion.




There is not going to be a "Valley Elf" in the new FRCS.  Instead, there is going to be a more complete write-up for dark elf or drow.  I know it sounds like I was being redundant, but one of the things they did was turn all the "good drow" into dark elves so that drow would be evil again.  I'm not sure if one set of stats will be the same for both, or if we are getting them for one or the other, or what, but basically all you are getting is the full write-up for the third elf race.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

So, they either rewrite the background of Drizzt (the coverboy for FR 4E), or we still have "good drow".


----------



## Reneshat (Jul 11, 2008)

*Special*



Fenes said:


> So, they either rewrite the background of Drizzt (the coverboy for FR 4E), or we still have "good drow".



I think the attempt is to make him "special."


----------



## Steely Dan (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't understand the elf-hate, I've just always wanted to have relations with them, especially drow tranny ones.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Reneshat said:


> I think the attempt is to make him "special."




Emphasis on attempt. If Drizzt can be a good Drow, anyone can be a good drow.

Although it will make more sense for Drizzt - I always imagined, should we ever meet Drizzt in game, to say to him "Hey, Drizzt, we met the good drow down there near Waterdeep. Are you related to them?" and pull the rug out of his self-pity.

Seriously, the guy gets off on his "misunderstood and alone, exiled from my family and race", all the while there's tons of other good drows and a good drow goddess even just a few hundred miles - or just a mile, in the time he lived in Waterdeep - away. Serious case of insufficient coordinating between authors.


----------



## Fredrik Svanberg (Jul 11, 2008)

DandD said:


> Why can't eldar eladrin, wood elf and dark elfdrow not be simply something culturally, like in Warhammer?




Why don't you just decide that it is so? I mean, D&D races aren't really biological definitions anyway. Some of them are different species altogether while elf, human and orc apparently are the same race and able to reproduce with each other. It's unknown whether orc and elf can reproduce or if they just kill all such offspring immediately. Of course none of them actually evolved so using terms like "species" is probably wrong. What I'm getting at is that a D&D "race" might just as well be a different culture, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Steely Dan (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Two words: Valley Elf.




Like, gag me with a leaf.


I know, you've heard it!


----------



## Reneshat (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Emphasis on attempt. If Drizzt can be a good Drow, anyone can be a good drow.
> 
> Although it will make more sense for Drizzt - I always imagined, should we ever meet Drizzt in game, to say to him "Hey, Drizzt, we met the good drow down there near Waterdeep. Are you related to them?" and pull the rug out of his self-pity.
> 
> Seriously, the guy gets off on his "misunderstood and alone, exiled from my family and race", all the while there's tons of other good drows and a good drow goddess even just a few hundred miles - or just a mile, in the time he lived in Waterdeep - away. Serious case of insufficient coordinating between authors.



There WAS a ton of other good drow and a good drow goddess.  Now there are good dark elves, evil drow, Drizzt and no more Ellistrae.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Reneshat said:


> There WAS a ton of other good drow and a good drow goddess.  Now there are good dark elves, evil drow, Drizzt and no more Ellistrae.




Only for those who follow that timeline. And as long as they do not convert Drizzt to "good dark elf", there will always be "good drow" since where there's one, there can be two, three, and so on.


----------



## taliesin15 (Jul 11, 2008)

Glad we do agree about the annoying proliferation of Elf subraces; for myself I would extend this to the other demi-human races. I would rather there be outlines of regional differences, just like humans who speak a different dialect of Common on the other side of the mountains and tend to have curlier hair (or whatever). 

As to the the -2 Constitution racial ability adjustment, I've never liked it, but if I was going to change the Ability Modifier, most of you would cry foul. It would probably stay at a +2 Dex; but +4 Int, +4 Wis and +6 Charisma. Also I would automatically give all Elves a couple of skill points of Perform Elven Songs and Poetry. But I've sidestepped all such controversy IMC by letting players do a generous point buy system, and tell them to ignore the racial adjustments.

Another problem I'm thinking people might have with Elves is some of the way too dorky-looking illustrations of them in the core books. Every single illustration of Mialee in the 3rd edition PHB & DMG looks like a really poorly rendered Anime character, not an Elf. Same goes for Gnomes and Halflings. What's up with SKINNY Gnomes and Halflings? And why does the Gnome Illusionist appear to be a sloppy caricature of a little Irishman? At least they've got the Dwarves and Half-Orcs pretty much right.


----------



## Steely Dan (Jul 11, 2008)

taliesin15 said:


> Glad we do agree about the annoying proliferation of Elf subraces





But Biker Elves were cool!


----------



## Byronic (Jul 11, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Why are you interested in this question?
> 
> I ask because I'd hate to think that someone was just stirring, yet it isn't clear to me what you hope to get out of this discussion.
> 
> ...




Hello Plane Sailing, 

Why am I interested? Well, since you seem so curious I'll tell you. Remember a while back I was considering to replace Tieflings with Melniboneans? Well while solving that problem I decided to  do something about Elves and Eladrin as well. Don't take me wrong, I loved them in Third Edition, but we were promised quite a bit more in the previews for fourth edition. So I decided to recreate them.

I solved quite a few strange things about Elves. I solved their aging problem. I explained why Elves haven't conquered the world with magic. I gave them a unique psychology, identity and worldview. No longer could people mistake them for humans with pointy ears. They were proper fey, bound by laws, mores and convention that were alien to human sensibilities. They don't even have a biology as humans understand it. I had originally planned to post that but your forum decided that it rather preferred to eat it up. I have yet to type it out again.

However, before I unleashed my creation on my players I needed to gain other perspectives on the matter. Which answers your next point, what I wanted to get out of it. So far we've learned that a lot of people disliked the sheer amount of races Elves have, their snooty manner, some of the players that play them and a lack of "connection". While most of the points have little to do with my version of them the last one brings forth an important point. While as a race they are well written, how many players can truly play something non-human?

As for the rest of your post, in hindsight my question seems to have done it's job quite nicely, and if this post 


aurance said:


> Actually, I was curious about this phenomenon as well, and this thread has been pretty informative.



is anything to go by I can say it has been a win-win situation for us all.

Hoping the weather is nice up there in Harpenden,

Byronic


----------



## Klaus (Jul 11, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Meat Loaf had good stuff in the seventies.
> 
> It's not elves that created elf-hate.
> 
> It was elf-players.



This.

Elf-players tend to act arrogantly, patronizing and demeaning the other characters.

Elf-loving DMs and authors write elves as being better at everything (for an example, look at the Return of the King extended edition, where the elf wins a DRINKING contest against the dwarf).


----------



## Klaus (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If only that were true.
> 
> Two words: Valley Elf.



To be fair, Valley Elves were originally from Greyhawk (where they lived in the Valley of the Mage and served the Mage there).


----------



## radferth (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I'd argue that elves are all about the sex. Given how we have a race of half-elves, and all those sub races, and well, I won't get into the elf porn on the internet...




That's good, because the internet is no place for porn.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

radferth said:


> That's good, because the internet is no place for porn.



I'm not going to post that WoW clip, and you can't make me!


----------



## Vigilance (Jul 11, 2008)

I cant explain WHY, but I do know it goes way back. I remember there was a fantasy RPG in the 1e era (name escapes me) whose tagline in their Dragon Magazine ads was NO ELVES. 

I think in 1e the hate was based on how cheesy and broken multi-classing was, and since elves could TRIPLE CLASS they were clearly the munchkin-iest of the munchkins.

After that, I think Drow, and later most especially Drizzt really stoked the fire.

And yes, Drow are the triple-class 1e level of cheese in 3e.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Because 3e had this habit of "Elves that live by a river- we'll call them Elf (River) and put them in an MM!" subrace bloat.




This was a hold-over from 2e (the elf-lovingest edition), not a 3e thing, and was necessary to kind of preserve in 3e because the designers didn't want to exclude people who really totally loved what elves were in 2e (and they are out there, those people). 

And now in 4e, there are even more elf sub-races, even in the PH. And there's a lot of space dedicated to variant drow, eladrin, and elves in the MM.

No, 4e has a lot of the sick elf-love, too. 3e at least brought other races up to "par" with the elves (arguably making elves one of the weaker races due ot the Con penalty). 4e, thankfully, seems to preserve the balance.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

Cryptos said:


> Looking into the article that gave me the reference you were making, on wikipedia, more than half of the page is "Elves in the Forgotten Realms" and features aquatic, winged, dark or drow, lythari, moon, star, sun, wild, and wood elves.



Aquatic, drow, wild and wood elves all started off in Greyhawk. And don't forget the Valley Elves.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

Klaus said:


> To be fair, Valley Elves were originally from Greyhawk (where they lived in the Valley of the Mage and served the Mage there).



That was my point. Elf proliferation predates the Forgotten Realms.

Greyhawk also gave us the drow, gray elves, high elves, wood elves, sea elves and grugach/wild elves.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> I'm not going to post that WoW clip, and you can't make me!




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAjWVHLIuVk]embed the clip[/ame]

Warning: One mild expletive that can be heard on broadcast television about halfway through. (It's a nickname for "Richard.")


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 11, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> This was a hold-over from 2e (the elf-lovingest edition), not a 3e thing, and was necessary to kind of preserve in 3e because the designers didn't want to exclude people who really totally loved what elves were in 2e (and they are out there, those people).




Yeah, the worst book in all of 2nd Edition, in my oh so humble opinion, was the Complete Elven Supremacist's Handbook, where were learned that elves do everything better than everyone else (think dwarves are the quintessential crafters? HELL NO, elves are even better!).

Now I've got a foul, vaguely elven taste in my mouth. I need some Listerine.


----------



## Set (Jul 11, 2008)

Staffan said:


> They have often been portrayed as the "we're better than you" race, especially with splatbooks like Complete Elves' Handbook from 2e.




I blame the Complete Elves Handbook as well.

I was a huge elf fanboi until I read that, with stuff about human bards falling into despair, and never playing music again and wanting to deafen themselves after hearing elves (not elven bards, just any old elf-on-the-street) singing at a funeral or something, because they'd never hear anything that speshul again.

While I'm sure there wasn't a rule for it, the book definitely conveyed the impression that elf poop didn't stink, and indeed, magically helped grow forests and smelled lemony-fresh!

Reading that book made me look at my former elf-loving self with the sort of dubious 'I'm embarassed for you' look that I would give a furry erotica enthusiast.

The Complete *Dwarves* Handbook, on other hand, freaking *rocked.*  I never cared at all for Dwarves before reading that book.  Battleragers?  Awesome.  My dorkhood remains intact, even after falling out of love with elves.


----------



## Tewligan (Jul 11, 2008)

Vigilance said:


> I cant explain WHY, but I do know it goes way back. I remember there was a fantasy RPG in the 1e era (name escapes me) whose tagline in their Dragon Magazine ads was NO ELVES.



Talislanta. One of my players is about to start running a game of it!


----------



## Tewligan (Jul 11, 2008)

Fredrik Svanberg said:


> It's unknown whether orc and elf can reproduce or if they just kill all such offspring immediately.



If you use it (and you certainly should!), I believe that the 1e Monster Manual states that elves are one of the few races that can't crossbreed with orcs.


----------



## Bubbalicious (Jul 11, 2008)

Elves give you cancer!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI[/ame]


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

taliesin15 said:


> As to the the -2 Constitution racial ability adjustment, I've never liked it, but if I was going to change the Ability Modifier, most of you would cry foul. It would probably stay at a +2 Dex; but +4 Int, +4 Wis and +6 Charisma. Also I would automatically give all Elves a couple of skill points of Perform Elven Songs and Poetry. But I've sidestepped all such controversy IMC by letting players do a generous point buy system, and tell them to ignore the racial adjustments.




I agree that the con penalty does not fit and that they need a cha bonus but the other bonuses are too much, IMO. They just reinforce the "elves are bestest" cliche.


----------



## Defender_X (Jul 11, 2008)

Steely Dan said:


> I don't understand the elf-hate, I've just always wanted to have relations with them, especially drow tranny ones.




One night in Menzoberranzan


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnqj31VPNoE[/ame]


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).
> Does Tolkien have anything to do with it?
> 
> 
> And why oh why don't you change them until you like them again?




I love elves.

I just don't think we need a Fantasy Megapack of Elves- _A New Race For Every Niche!_

When you look at the legends, "Elf" was often interchangeable with terms like "Faerie," "Fey," "Dwarf," "Gnome" and "Goblin."  By making an Elf for every situation, you leave less room for the other legendary supernatural creatures.  Suddenly, a perfectly serviceable race- as far as legend and mythology goes, at least- loses its niche and people start wondering why they are in the game at all.

*Exhibit 1*: the Gnome.  Very commonly used as a term for nature loving diminutive fey or as handcraft-loving fey who assist tradesmen in need.  That first niche was taken entirely by Elves, the second was somewhat mocked in the form of the Tinker Gnomes...

In some legends, Gnomes were master craftsmen...but that role in RPGs is often depicted as being carved out for Dwarves.  (Unless the Elves are better still.)

Sometimes, Gnomes were masters of magic.  In D&D?  Elves.

Together, all this means leaving Gnomes without a distinct, positive niche in the game.
*
Exhibit 2*: other Fey.  There are fey already associated with bodies of water...why Aquatic Elves?  There are already fey associated with being xenophobic nature dwellers...so why Wild Elves?
*
Exhibit 3*: Elves themselves.  Elves were _very_ commonly associated with being aloof masters of magic- Oberon, Underhill, Changelings, The Raven King, the split between the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, etc.  They could have really played up this aspect in the game and left the other niches alone, leaving Elves as being powerful and mysterious.  Instead, they're as common as drunken teenagers on Gulf Coast beaches during Spring Break.  They've lost their luster, their mystery.  They've become _common._


----------



## hamishspence (Jul 11, 2008)

*Greyhawk?*

I've been reading the Expert set book, and the Master books (not read Companion book yet), and Valley elves were in the Expert book. And both seemed to be more Mystara-ish than Greyhawk-ish. Spheres (Entropy, Time, Energy, Matter, etc) artifacts which don't seem very Greyhawk-ish, including a Sinbad-related artifact.

Also saw Mystics, which are unmistakebly what would eventually become monks, and barbarians, who don't seem to have gotten rage yet.

I'm wondering if 4th ed is likely to start jumping right back past AD&D when it comes to inspiration. I noticed that one of the paths to immortality was called just "paragon" Mmm, the old days, when Wizards got Heal but clerics got Cureall, when clerics got wish instead of Miracle, it certainly looks interesting. It would be nice to see some old-style stuff start making an appearance.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Just saw Hellboy 2.  If elves could be like _those_, I'd take 'em.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

Reneshat said:


> There WAS a ton of other good drow and a good drow goddess. Now there are good dark elves, evil drow, Drizzt and no more Ellistrae.



What what what? No more Ellistrae?! But how can you get rid of a goddess of Naked Elves Dancing in Moonlight?!

I am sad.


----------



## Mark (Jul 11, 2008)

Byronic said:


> Why do people hate Elfkind?





Vowel envy?


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> What what what? No more Ellistrae?! But how can you get rid of a goddess of Naked Elves Dancing in Moonlight?!



By replacing it with a goddess of Naked Elves Dancing in Daylight.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

Elves with sunburn is not cool.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Mark said:


> Vowel envy?




Maybe 'y' envy.  Nobody gets to have as many 'y's as the elves.

Y'know, speaking of letters and whatnot; am I the only one who actually would kinda like to "un-Tolkien" the word a bit and say elfs and elfin rather than elves and elven?


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Maybe 'y' envy.  Nobody gets to have as many 'y's as the elves.
> 
> Y'know, speaking of letters and whatnot; am I the only one who actually would kinda like to "un-Tolkien" the word a bit and say elfs and elfin rather than elves and elven?




I prefer going even further and dropping elf for _sidhe_.


----------



## hamishspence (Jul 11, 2008)

*Elfin, etc: which leads to jokes*

Specifically, about the more obnoxious elf  characters being extremely 'elfish or possibly 'elf centred


----------



## Merkuri (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Y'know, speaking of letters and whatnot; am I the only one who actually would kinda like to "un-Tolkien" the word a bit and say elfs and elfin rather than elves and elven?




Meh, I'm used to "elves" and "elven".

Though I got in trouble back in high school for adding "elven" to the dictionary on my parents' computer because my dad once mistyped "eleven" and it didn't catch it.


----------



## Nifft (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Y'know, speaking of letters and whatnot; am I the only one who actually would kinda like to "un-Tolkien" the word a bit and say elfs and elfin rather than elves and elven?



 Nah, they have separate meanings: a real-life human could have "elfin" features, but not "elven" (though a half-elf could have both). Compare "manly" and "mannish".

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Leontodon (Jul 11, 2008)

I thing the problem is that many has been written concerning rpg elves but they are still not understood. Many players just tend to see the pros about elves but the have strong disadvantages (based on Tolkien and Folk-Fiction). Just look into the Silmarillion for example. Yep they are strong, beautyful, skilled craftsman to the point that they are rather artists and yep the live for ever, BUT they have a destiny and they know about it. Theirs are tragic fates and dangerous oaths. To me elves are something like classical greek tragedy characters.

The Problem is the player has to roleplay this air of melancholy that surrounds them instead of just saying:" lawl Im good with a bow and Legolas is my uncle."

I also dislike that they feel like hippies if your following their description and few persons really like Hippies (those hypocrits).


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> What what what? No more Ellistrae?! But how can you get rid of a goddess of Naked Elves Dancing in Moonlight?!
> 
> I am sad.




Give the niche to Lolth! Seriously, why do we need naked drow in the game? Do they advance the plot? Are they giving people something they can't find free on the internet?

I hated Eilistraee because she was a good drow goddess, when there were no evil elven deities. Drizzt became good aligned without divine influence, when he was still a unique character, and Eilistraee seemed designed to make that happen with far more characters, each with a much shorter backstory.


----------



## EATherrian (Jul 11, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> 1. Elf fanboys are the most annoying creatures on earth- makes you want to hate all over the elves.
> 
> 2. To me personally, elves rub me completely the wrong way.  They are flighty, capricious, highly emotional, self-important, self-absorbed, and condescending towards others.  I've never seen elves presented in any campaign setting in such a way that they wouldn't be more appealing as spitted and roasting over an orc campfire.
> 
> ...




Hmmm.  Anti-Elf ideology from a being named Gothmog.


----------



## EATherrian (Jul 11, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If only that were true.
> 
> Two words: Valley Elf.




Valley Elves were, thankfully, quite limited in their scope.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> Give the niche to Lolth!



The niche of good drow? 

Actually, I thought the "Evil Elf" Deity was Lolth. But then, any evil elf (female) became a Banshee, so maybe there were just few evil elves. 

We need naked elves, yes.

I actually hated Drizzt and liked Eilistraee. E had the whole "Good Drow" without all the, well, ANGST.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> The niche of good drow?




The niche of dancing naked female drow.



> Actually, I thought the "Evil Elf" Deity was Lolth. But then, any evil elf (female) became a Banshee, so maybe there were just few evil elves.




Umm... right. "Elves are Better". I can't picture any evil uptight moon elf worshipping Lolth. They become atheists instead.



> I actually hated Drizzt and liked Eilistraee. E had the whole "Good Drow" without all the, well, ANGST.




I saw E as being derivative. Very derivative. As in "here's a whole clutch of "good drow" heroes" derivative. There's a TV tropes wiki term for that --> "Follow the Leader".


----------



## Monkey Boy (Jul 12, 2008)

I hate elves because they are consistantly pitched as the race that is 'better than you'. I always root for the underdog. In the groups I game with they are often roleplayed as arrogant and occasionally racial supremists. It's kind of like kender, paladins or lawful good. Elves baggage is easy to abuse and annoying players will do so.

I hate elves!


----------



## Rechan (Jul 12, 2008)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> The niche of dancing naked female drow.



Because her schtick is leather domme drow.



> Umm... right. "Elves are Better". I can't picture any evil uptight moon elf worshipping Lolth. They become atheists instead.



Then perhaps V... uh... the male drow god, the one of thieves and assassins and gender equality. 

But then, I don't like racial pantheons. 



> I saw E as being derivative. Very derivative. As in "here's a whole clutch of "good drow" heroes" derivative. There's a TV tropes wiki term for that --> "Follow the Leader".



This is me shrugging.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 12, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Y'know, speaking of letters and whatnot; am I the only one who actually would kinda like to "un-Tolkien" the word a bit and say elfs and elfin rather than elves and elven?




Nitpick: Elvish is Tolkein, Elven is D&D.


----------



## lutecius (Jul 12, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> 1. Elf fanboys are the most annoying creatures on earth- makes you want to hate all over the elves.
> 
> 2. To me personally, elves rub me completely the wrong way.  They are flighty, capricious, highly emotional, self-important, self-absorbed, and condescending towards others.  I've never seen elves presented in any campaign setting in such a way that they wouldn't be more appealing as spitted and roasting over an orc campfire.
> 
> ...



Funnily enough, most dwarves i’ve seen in play were the same old crude, grumpy to downright sociopathic drunks.
Interestingly enough, most dwarf fanboys i've met were actually short, unwashed, socially challenged fatbeards or intolerant, tubby boozers.
(not implying every dwarf player is either of those, that’s just my experience )



Reneshat said:


> That's no longer true.  The French are now "Eladrin."



They usually have better taste. Few French people I know would wear those garish colours or long, flowing robes and hair. 



Steely Dan said:


> I don't understand the elf-hate, I've just always wanted to have relations with them, especially drow tranny ones.



This is becoming an obsession  Are you pulling a Hong or something?


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 12, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Elves with sunburn is not cool.



Have you ever seen one with sunburn, red, peeling skin and all?


----------



## portermj (Jul 12, 2008)

Because they make their cookies soo unhealthy, but soo good.


----------



## Gothmog (Jul 12, 2008)

EATherrian said:


> Hmmm.  Anti-Elf ideology from a being named Gothmog.




Heh, first person to catch that.  Here's a cookie...made of elves!


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 12, 2008)

*Why do I hate elves?*

Ever since reading DL as a youngster and them trying to take the dragonorb of the heroes, grrrrrrrrr those self righteous gits!

Never got over it, sad as that is!


----------



## TheEvil (Jul 12, 2008)

hong said:


> Like, gag me with a spoon!




Like, gag me with an ork!


----------



## TheEvil (Jul 12, 2008)

Vigilance said:


> I cant explain WHY, but I do know it goes way back. I remember there was a fantasy RPG in the 1e era (name escapes me) whose tagline in their Dragon Magazine ads was NO ELVES.




Taslislantia.

Though to be fair, half the races had pointy ears...


----------



## Mercurius (Jul 12, 2008)

Because they're "fay."


----------



## fba827 (Jul 12, 2008)

Byronic said:


> So why do people hate the various races of elves (Elves, Eladrin, Drow etc).




Because elves cause cancer ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI




Edit: Okay, so I skipped a page of the comments and now realize that someone had posted this exact same video on the page that I skipped.   Sorry for rehashing a joke that those who read every page already saw.


----------



## Reneshat (Jul 12, 2008)

lutecius said:


> They usually have better taste. Few French people I know would wear those garish colours or long, flowing robes and hair.





That's merely bad art design.  Could you imagine anyone wearing those clothes?


----------



## Gailbraithe (Jul 12, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been playing for twenty years and seen (and participate in) a lot of Elf Hatin' going on.

My personal reason for hating elves, and many people seem to share these, are two-fold:

1) Of all the races, Elves have the twinkiest advantages.  This has been slightly balanced over time, but back in the day they got bonuses on long swords and long bows, long swords being the most common of magic weapons.  They got bonuses to detect secret doors, while dwarves got to detect sloping passages.  Elves could be magic-user/fighters.

2) The worst twinkie players I've ever met all played elves.  One of the absolute worst players I ever had was obsessed with elves and ALWAYS played an elven fighter-wizard-cleric.  Later it become the Drizz't thing, and  by 2nd Ed. every powergaming twink dork was playing an elf who wielded two long swords which he was specialized in at first level.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 13, 2008)

The problem with the "good drow goddess" as opposed to not having an "evil elf deity" was that elves weren't "ALWAYS EVIL, ALL THE TIME" like Drow originally were.  If an elf turned evil, they'd just shrug and find some other evil god to worship.

Drow on the other hand had to go out of their way not to be ALWAYS EVIL, ALL THE TIME, so they almost _needed_ their own deity.


I'm not counting Drizzt into this because, quite frankly, screw that half-ass, poorly written, angsterbanging speshul snowflake.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 13, 2008)

It is all Tolkien's fault, really, because as others in this thread have mentioned, he effectively made elves more "god-like" than humans, and thus better at pretty much everything on a micro scale (i.e. maybe their civilization is failing and their birth-rate is near zero, but they're smarter than you, better looking, quicker, longer-lived, etc.).

Then of course Gary has to give in to demands that people be allowed to play elves in D&D, and it's all downhill from there, because elves retain their key trait:

They're better than humans, in pretty much every way that counts in a game, and they're generally portrayed as both smug and serious.

This problem is self-compounding, in that the sort of people who constantly play elves and think about them a lot also tend, strongly, to be smug, humourless and self-regarding types who think they're better than everyone else, especially if we're talking teenage players. Either that or they're just helpless elf-worshipper, who totally buy into the "better than humans" deal and are keen to go on about it.

Then this whole "they're better than humans" angle often expands into a kind of sub-nazi racial supremacist deal (to the point where "elf nazis" is a not uncommon trope, I'd suggest), which just adds fuel to the fire, because I think to the modern mind, a race which is inherently superior to others in all ways, is somewhat offensive.

Recently, trends have been away from this, I note. 4E's Elves are no longer clearly "better" than humans, indeed they're kind of arsebastards, which is nice, and back to the Hobbit in a lot of ways (as opposed to LotR), and we've seen enough "Creepy bad fae" portrayals to last a lifetime. If only Drow could somehow be made interesting. Perhaps by de-evil-ing them, heresy though that might be (and "up-evil-ing" the other Elf-types).

Oh well. I'm probably baised. Every time someone says "Eladrin" in my group someone sings "Dance the magic dance!" or the like, and I think they're the new focus for annoyance. Not many people really hated Wood Elves that much, it was the bloody smug High Elves they despised.

As for Dwarves, they're typically less annoying because they're never portrayed as clearly "better than humans" and rarely have the same psycho fans. However, the dangerously high leves of cliche than are increasingly associated with Dwarves and the fact that we've not seen an interesting or different mainstream RPG portrayal of them since, like, the early '90s worries me. I think if I see one more dwarven smith or dwarf who loves ale I may throw something. Even bloody elves aren't so consistently written and/or roleplayed so purely in terms of cliches.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 13, 2008)

Yeah, the problem was 1e. Gary stuck too closely to his source material. Unlike Tolkien's elves, Gary's are playable but they are still head and shoulders above the other races.


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## Set (Jul 13, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Then of course Gary has to give in to demands that people be allowed to play elves in D&D, and it's all downhill from there, because elves retain their key trait:
> 
> They're better than humans, in pretty much every way that counts in a game, and they're generally portrayed as both smug and serious.




And yet, Gary's elves *were not* Tolkeins elves.  They were shorter, and had some lower stat maximums.  Humans were better at certain things, and many class options (and the whole Dual Classing thing) were not available to elves, *and* Elves couldn't be as good as a human at any specific class.  Even the stuff that elves were associated with, like the magic-user class, they could never be as good as a Human magic-user.

Tolkein's elves were quasi-divine beings.  Give an Elf a variation on the Half-Celestial template, and that would be more like it.  AD&D Elves have always been in some ways inferior to Humans, in other ways more versatile (able to have multiple classes, but that was hardly unique, as every other non-Human race could have multiple classes, even the silly Halflings).  I think the problem is that people read Tolkein, saw the word 'elf' and thought that AD&D elves should be like Tolkeins divinely-empowered creatures who were stronger, tougher, more beautiful, more graceful, innately magical, wiser, etc. than humans.

It would be like having a bunch of Anne Rice fans over to play a game of Vampire based on the movie Near Dark or 30 Days of Night.  They would have a *completely* innappropriate idea what kind of vampires they would be playing, just as people weaned on Tolkein have a completely different concept of what an 'elf' should be.  If they came to AD&D from Elfquest, they'd be equally off-base as to what the word 'elf' means *in this game.*

A fan of Norse myth would look at the Dwarves of 1st and 2nd edition and wonder what the heck was up, since Dwarves were the most magical race of all, in Norse myth, known for their shapeshifting, illusion-casting and, especially, their creation of magical artifacts worthy of the gods.

That's the only 'problem' with elves, IMO, is people bringing baggage in from other sources and trying to kludge the AD&D elf into the role they learned somewhere else.


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## Klaus (Jul 13, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:


> Yeah, the problem was 1e. Gary stuck too closely to his source material. Unlike Tolkien's elves, Gary's are playable but they are still head and shoulders above the other races.



Gary's elves were playable and fallible, not unlike the Tolkien elves circa "The Hobbit". But players insited on playing them (and DMs on DMing them) like they were the godlike, unfallible ubermenschen of LotR and Silmarillion.


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## Lurks-no-More (Jul 13, 2008)

Klaus said:


> Gary's elves were playable and fallible, not unlike the Tolkien elves circa "The Hobbit". But players insited on playing them (and DMs on DMing them) like they were the godlike, unfallible ubermenschen of LotR and Silmarillion.




Godlike but very, very fallible, really. 

That's what saved Tolkien's elves from the twinkery: in the First Age and before, they made a ton of really bad and stupid decisions because of pride, greed, stubbornness and whatnot; repeated it in the Second Age with the Rings of Power; and had generally faded out in the Third Age (plus Galadriel had finally wised up).


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## Barastrondo (Jul 13, 2008)

There's also the fact that the first thing discarded from an in-game portrayal of a Tolkienesque elf is the idea that they're all in decline. They're leaving the world, surrendering it to men, and someday they'll all be gone. This was touched on in some settings (and directly ripped off in others), but nobody really wanted to play beautiful immortals with the understanding that in a hundred years, they'd be fading memories in the minds of the now-dominant humans and other races.

To be fair, there's not much of a way to represent that decline in such a way that it's mechanically balanced with the advantages you get from being a Tolkien elf. Plus, hanging around and having a legacy is eminently gameable, and something that suits the way D&D characters move into high levels. So eliminating the idea of the decline makes sense — you just have to remove the implied superiority along with it. That's a bit harder, though, because really, players do want to be special. 

So, design theory time: One of the reasons I think dwarves are so popular is that they seem innately balanced. "Play a dwarf if you want to be good at being tough and crafty and enduring; don't play a dwarf if you want to be a romantic figure or an elegant gymnast." "Play a halfling if you want to be good at stealth, cleverness and agility; don't play a halfling if you want to be big and strong." These are pretty clear, and the races seem right at a glance. Elves have "Play an elf if you want to be good at magic or woodcraft or agility or good-looking or sophisticated or in tune with nature*", but they don't really have a "don't play an elf" weakness that pops out at you. Any class you can think of, elves can do just fine. So even when they're mechanically balanced, they seem to be imbalanced as archetypes. They're just not clearly below-average at anything, yet they are clearly above-average at some things.  

That perception can probably do a lot for making the people who like elves like them even more and the people who don't like elves like them even less.  


*4e addresses this a bit by splitting out the "if you want to be good at" into two races. However, I'm not sure that either elves or eladrin have a "don't play one" weakness as clear as that of a dwarf or halfling or even tiefling.


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## ejja_1 (Jul 13, 2008)

I love elves, they stay crunchy in milk.
Dwarves are however dirty hairy little buggers that get stuck in my teeth!


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 13, 2008)

Set said:


> It would be like having a bunch of Anne Rice fans over to play a game of Vampire based on the movie Near Dark or 30 Days of Night.  They would have a *completely* innappropriate idea what kind of vampires they would be playing, just as people weaned on Tolkein have a completely different concept of what an 'elf' should be.  If they came to AD&D from Elfquest, they'd be equally off-base as to what the word 'elf' means *in this game.*




Er, in the 1980s, virtually every D&D fan was a greater or lesser Tolkien fan, particularly of LotR, and this didn't change that much in the 1990s, so essentially this is precisely what was happening, and what continues to happen. As D&D's elves were different but not clearly separated by utterly different traits (merely small physical differences, which I suspect stemmed from misunderstanding of Tolkien, not an intentional attempt to separate them), and indeed resembled the particulars of Tolkien's elves in many ways (FR's Elves having the whole "Journey to the West" bs for example and being "in decline"), then I think it would be illogical to assume people would see them any other way, unless D&D was their first real exposure to elves (as it was mine).


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## AllisterH (Jul 13, 2008)

I see we all recognize the "fun" that was Complete Book of Elves.

Query: How many "bladesingers" did your group seem to have after that book was released?


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## Staffan (Jul 13, 2008)

Mourn said:


> Yeah, the worst book in all of 2nd Edition, in my oh so humble opinion, was the Complete Elven Supremacist's Handbook, where were learned that elves do everything better than everyone else (think dwarves are the quintessential crafters? HELL NO, elves are even better!).



The Swedish game Eon had an interesting take on this. Regarding crafting, the very best an elf can do is generally better than the very best a dwarf can do. The thing is that the elf is spending like a decade on making that thing, while the dwarf is spending a month or so.

This means that elven fighting forces has a small number of people using uber-swords and light armor and the rest using staves and clubs (essentially being skirmishers), while dwarves all use metal-hafted pretty-good axes, heavy shields, and reinforced mail armor.


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## Wolv0rine (Jul 13, 2008)

fba827 said:


> Because elves cause cancer ...
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI



As an elf-fond individual (if done right, that self-righteous uber race crap's gotta go) I have to say...  that was a beautiful, hilarious piece of art, thanks for sharing.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 14, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> I see we all recognize the "fun" that was Complete Book of Elves.
> 
> Query: How many "bladesingers" did your group seem to have after that book was released?




None.  None in 3.X edition either.



> every powergaming twink dork was playing an elf who wielded two long swords which he was specialized in at first level.




For the record, I was playing a drow Rgr/Dr/MU years before Drizzle ever saw the light of day.

OTOH, he was a staff-wielder who also had a longsword...

He started off twinky when I first started playing him at age 14, but he evolved over time.


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## Fenes (Jul 14, 2008)

One adventure with two bladesigning elves was enough for me to grow to hate the whole kit.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Jul 14, 2008)

Basically, because it sometimes looks like elves are an entire race of Mary Sues - they are more attractive, dextrous, have better senses and longer life spans, and all in all look like if an ancient human wizard had gone through a checklist and gave his children all those traits so that they would live better lives than he did.

But maybe that's exactly what happened...


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## Steely Dan (Jul 14, 2008)

lutecius said:


> This is becoming an obsession




_Becoming_?

It already is!

…I hope you're not prejudice?



As for elves, pretty much every D&D group I've been in for the last 20+ years, people would choose elves (all types) and humans, before pretty much any other race, but of course that is just my experience.


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## Ranger REG (Jul 15, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Query: How many "bladesingers" did your group seem to have after that book was released?



One. My PC. Got frustrated because my DM would put any weapons in treasures but longswords, which make me hate the 2e kit more because that's all they're good for.


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