# Review: Pathfinder Minis: Heroes and Monsters



## Steel_Wind (Dec 9, 2012)

After what seems like countless previews, design shots, mock-up 3d prints, test paints and factory painted previews, the next iteration of collectible minis are finally in gamers’ hands. It’s been a long time coming -- or at least it seems that way since the miniatures were announced at Gencon 2011 – but as of last week, the first set of Wizkids collectible miniatures for the _Pathfinder_ RPG hit the shelves in your local FLGS.

*The Purchase* 

I pre-ordered an entire case several months ago (along with the special Black Dragon mini available to those who pre-ordered) and the owner of 401 Games In Toronto, John, had dutifully set my case aside in the store-room for me to pick it up. As it turns out, while John was absent from the store one of his staff opened my case and removed a brick from it to sell to a customer. What made this worse was that there were three other loose bricks near "my case", so there was no excuse for doing this at all. *sigh* 

This was not just a mere technicality that could easily be remedied. Wizkids packages four bricks to a case of Pathfinder minis. The distribution of miniatures within a case is intended to ensure that if you buy an entire case all at once, you will get a complete set (absent collation errors). My friend and co-host of the _Chronicles: Pathfinder Podcast_, Michael “Azmyth” Azzolino, received his case over the weekend and assured me that he was able to assemble a complete set of the 40 minis available in _Heroes and Monsters_ from his case. However, his case was factory sealed, whereas my case had been tampered with and now contained only three of the bricks it initially was supposed to. (One of the bricks in my case was simply chosen at random and re-inserted back in to the case). 

Supply of _Pathfinder Battles_ in Canada is limited and John was not able to assure me he could even get another complete case. Did I want this one or not? 

If I lived in the USA, the answer would have been a flat “no” and I would have ordered a case online from MiniatureMarket.com instead with free shipping. But as I don’t live in the USA and shipping of a complete case to Canada from MiniatureMarket.com is ridiculously expensive by the time customs brokerage fees are added in, I decided to accept the so-called "case" and see how a random brick added in to the mix affected my “complete set” chances. Did this interference in the case composition hopelessly screw up my attempt to get a complete set of _Pathfinder Battles: Heroes and Monsters_? Read on to the end of the article for the results...

*The Ridiculous Packaging *

The most obvious difference you see before you even buy the product is the packaging. Once you get past the ubiquitous plain cardboard box each is shipped in, you come upon something that those of us familiar with the D&D mini line have never seen before: the Wizkids “brick”. This “brick” is simply a shrink-wrapped intermediate level of branded packaging for the minis but serves a dual purpose. A retailer can use the brick as a disposable display case from which to sell individual cartons in the store. 

For those of us who buy in bulk, a “brick” is just a smaller box, 1/4 of a case which contains 3 individual "large" miniature cartons and 16 small/medium cartons The brick cardstock is printed in full color so it’s somewhat expensive throw away packaging. 

Within each brick of Pathfinder minis is still yet another layer of packaging. While D&D minis throughout most of the past decade came in cardboard “boosters” of 8 minis per booster, _Pathfinder Battles_ minis are randomly bundled in two types of small cartons. The standard carton intended to be sold for about $3.00-$4.00, and another larger sized carton intended to be sold for about $6.00 each. The smaller carton contains 1 medium sized mini (or 2 small minis), while the larger carton contains 1 large size miniature.

The smaller boxes are rather small on the shelf. So small, in fact, that the display of boxes behind the counter in my local FLGS was stealthy enough that at first I couldn’t tell that that product was even in stock. How noticeable the boxes are is very much a function of breadth and depth of the number of cartons on the shelf and whether or not the retailer is using the brick to display the individual cartons. The product *is* small enough it can be missed depending on the set-up of your FLGS' store. Look carefully and if you don't see them -- ask.

And to add one further layer of packaging, the contents of each individual carton holds the miniature suspended in a thin-shell blister package style plastic which fits snugly into the box. This heat-moulded plastic is not recyclable where I live -- and probably not where you live, either. 

By the time you get through opening an entire case of minis, one thing is clear: you just spent a lot of money on throw away packaging. The sheer number of trees that died to package an entire case of _Pathfinder Battles: Heroes and Monsters _is not simply wasteful -- it is *embarrassing*. Not only are we wrecking the environment with all this needless packaging, *but I am paying for the privilege of doing so*, too. All of this full color glossy illustrated cardboard comes at a significant cost – and I’m paying full retail for it. Was I happy to receive and throw away all of this crap? No and HELL NO. Would you be? Have a look at all this crap that now needs to be disposed of or (hopefully) recycled. _Ridiculous_. Everything shown on the table is the throw away packaging from one single case of _Heroes and Monsters_. For a sense of scale, that's a pile which is over three feet wide, about three feet deep and is about 20-24 inches high! 

In my view, this wasteful packaging is a direct result of the efforts of Wizkids to obscure the true comparative cost of the product and to make it more attractive -- and affordable -- to younger customers. In this regard, I think their efforts are misguided. 

*The Price -- Simply Put, Pathfinder Minis are Damned Expensive *

Wizkids packages their Clix line of products in small individual boxes too. The difference is, Clix are aimed at younger gamers with smaller disposable incomes than most _Pathfinder_ players who skew older. Perhaps an even more important difference is that a half dozen Clix can meaningfully be used to play a game, whereas that isn't really the case with _Pathfinder_ Minis. 

Add this to the fact that _Pathfinder_ RPG currently appeals to a somewhat older segment of the RPG customer base and I'm not sure that the individual cartons for _Pathfinder Battles_ is all THAT necessary. The gamers that I know who are going to buy these minis will buy them either by the brick or the case. All by way of saying that packaging these minis 4 or 5 to a box might have been a more reasonable approach and less wasteful of packaging.

Whatever the case, there is no question that these miniatures are quite expensive. There is a reason, after all, that WotC decided they would exit the collectible miniatures market. Rising costs for oil and to a lesser extent, for wages and the depreciating US dollar have certainly taken their toll over the past decade. In 2005-06, cases of 12 D&D mini boosters could be purchased for $120-150, let's call that about $1.40 a miniature. 

In comparison, in 2012, even when buying from a deep-discount online retailer like MiniatureMarket.com, a case of _Pathfinder_ Minis (without the black dragon promo mini) is $2.70 a miniature. So yes, the price has essentially doubled over the past 6 years. Ultimately, if there is a problem with the success of _Pathfinder Battles_, the problem will be about the price -- because there isn't a problem with the product itself. 

*The Miniatures - Good to Very Good with Flashes of Awesome *

So how do Wizkids’ _Pathfinder_ minis differ from the WotC D&D Mini lines with which you are probably more familiar? 

- _Construction_

For the most part, _Pathfinder_ minis compare very favourably in terms of quality and presentation. Like the DDM line, _Pathfinder_ minis use the same scale and identically sized / coloured bases. Put alongside a group of D&D Minis, the _Pathfinder_ minis do not look out of place and look like they belong together on the tabletop. So that's all good.

Curiously, however, they do not feel the same as DDMs nor do they sound the same. Wizkids employs a plastic which is, for the most part, more rigid than WotC used in their minis. The elasticity of Wizkids plastic is not consistent throughout the miniature, however. As a result , the body of the mini is less prone to crushing or warping, but the weapons on the minis remain relatively flexible and so are far less likely to break had the same rigid plastic been used for that part of the miniature. Still, for all that, there are reports online that some weapons and shields have come off of the miniatures during shipping. Whether this is a consequence of the rigidity of the plastic or failed glue or some other reason, I cannot say. 

There are other advantages to using a more rigid plastic, as the plastic bases on _Pathfinder Battles_ minis are _significantly_ more rigid than that on D&D minis. Warped bases on DDMs will cause a mini to sit unevenly on the table and look "off" and they was nearly impossible to fix without using very hot water to do so. With the minis in the _Pathfinder Battles_ line this is no longer a problem. Oddly, the rigid feel to the bases in Wizkids' line is _instantly_ recognizable as you pick the mini up in terms of the "feel" of the miniature in your hand. The difference is even recognizable in terms of the _sound_ the minis make as you pick several of them up at once. Unlike DDMs, _Pathfinder _minis perceptibly "clink" as the bases touch one another in your hand. 

It was a little disconcerting when I first picked a group of them up at once and discovered this new property my pre-painted plastic minis had acquired. I have not travelled with my new minis in the _Heroes and Monsters_ line to discover whether or not this has an effect on their durability. I am inclined, however, to not overstuff these miniatures in to my cardboard boxes full of pre-assembled "encounters" that I typically use to transport minis to and from my PFS games.

_Quality of The Sculpts _

For the most part, the quality of the sculpts used in the _Heroes & Monsters_ line is at least equal -- and in most cases a noticeable improvement upon the sculpts that appeared in most of the DDM line, even when compared to DDMs at the height of their popularity and quality in the 2006-2007 era. Still, not every miniature in the _Heroes and Monsters_ line is an improvement on the DDM version. The DDM Chimera from the _War Drums_ set, in particular, is a noticeably superior miniature to the _Pathfinder_ version.

But that's about the only instance of a noticeably superior sculpt in favour of the DDM product line to my eye. In every other instance, Wizkids' new minis take the prize. Moreover, the overall quality of the sculpts in the set is exceptionally high. 

Quality of the Paint-Jobs

While the painting is also very good, the quality is somewhat uneven. Some of the exceptional sculpts are sometimes let down by poor or limited color choices. The Orc Warrior, for example, is a common mini with a sculpt of simply _exceptional _quality. The paint job, however, being a common mini, is iffy and is not helped by the use of a "goblin green" skin tone. In a similar vein, the rare Succubus is again an exceptional sculpt that it let down by the plainness and uniformity of the red color on its wings. The miniature would have greatly benefited from a wash and highlights used to pick out the bone spurs on her wings.

That's the bad news; happily that bad news is drowned out by the good news. The paint jobs on all of the rares, with the exception of the aforementioned Succubus (and perhaps the Werewolf) are all excellent in quality. To this "excellent" rating, I would also include most (though not all) of the paint jobs on the uncommon minis as well. 

Among the common minis in the set, Paizo and Wizkids are to be commended for their selection of their "common" unit types. One of the advantages that the _Pathfinder Battles_ line enjoys over the miniature selection in the DDM lines is that the choices of _Pathfinder Battles'_ miniatures is not constrained by the alignment requirements which were integral to the faction design of the DDM minis game. As a consequence, the common minis in _Heroes and Monsters_ are a great selection for a relatively small 40 miniature set: Goblin Warrior (Red), Goblin Hero (Red), Goblin Warrior (Blue), Goblin Hero (Blue), Orc Brute, Orc Warrior, Skeleton, Watch Guard, Watch Officer, Lizardfolk Champion, Zombie, Giant Spider, and Wolf. Not one Celestial Badger or Dire Weasel in sight!

While the common wolves are well appreciated, perhaps the highlight of the set for many _Pathfinder_ fans are the lowly goblins. The goblins sculpts are faithful to Wayne Reynolds' iconic reference art. While the paint jobs are not expert by any means (the goblins being large in number, small in size and commons) I was very pleased to ultimately pull 12 of these little charmers -- a perfect number that satisfies my needs.

*Best of and the Rest of* 

_Favourite Sculpt:_ Orc Warrior 

_Least Favourite Mini:_ Gnome Warrior

_Most Complimentary Paint Job:_ (Tie) Spectre & Half-Orc Barbarian

_Least Complimentary Paint-Job:_ (Tie) Orc Warrior and Succubus

_Most Problematic Sculpt: _The Troll. While I am not a fan of the art for the _Pathfinder _Troll, the Troll mini is an absolutely faithful reproduction of the reference art, except for the problem of its height. When you order a "Venti", you don't expect to get a "Grande".

_Most Improved Mini IRL:_ The Ettin. Initially, photos looked plain, featureless and dreadful. Current online photos do not do justice to the Ettin. When seen with the naked eye? It *rocks*. 

_Best Overall Mini: _The Black Dragon. Hands down, the best large dragon miniature yet manufactured in a pre-painted miniature line.

*Collation* 

All reports I have heard, both online and from those I know personally, confirm that a sealed case will provide a complete set of the 40 minis in the _Heroes and Minis_ set. In my own (tampered with) case, this was not so -- but I must stress that this is not a reflection on the collation of a factory sealed case. As a consequence of the tampering, I ended up without the Lich, Werewolf or Large Cave Spider minis. 

Not to worry! A quick visit to RPGlocker.com operated by ENWorld's own O'Ryan '77 was able to fix me up with the missing singles without any trouble at all. 

 *Edit:* Earlier today, Wizkids confirmed what I had heard informally earlier in the week, namely, that_ Heroes & Monsters_ has sold out at NECA/Wizkids' warehouse.  While that does not mean that the miniatures will not be available in stores or through distributors in the near term, it does mean that this is a product that is facing supply pressures and that those supply pressures are *certain to increase*. If you are waiting to purchase this product -- you might not want to wait all that long. *This is especially true if you are an international customer.*

On the plus side, the strong demand at the distributor level is certain to strengthen Wizkids' faith in the product line, which can only be a good thing for gamers, generally.



*Recommended:* Provided the ridiculous excess of packaging is fixed in the future, I would recommend _Pathfinder Battles:_ _Heroes and Monsters_ to all _Pathfinder_ GMs with sufficient disposable cash. If the current packaging style remains in the next _Rise of the Runelords_ Set, I will not be inclined to purchase these miniatures again.


----------



## darrell_uk (Jan 20, 2012)

UK rrp appear to be £2.50 for a small and £5.00 for a large, definitely expensive.


----------



## Aberzanzorax (Jan 20, 2012)

Excellent job reviewing. 


You, sir, are very knowledgeable about minis.


----------



## IronWolf (Jan 20, 2012)

Nice review. I am glad you called out the packaging waste associated with these minis. That pile of trash from the packaging is pretty telling.


----------



## delericho (Jan 20, 2012)

Good review.

Too expensive for me. Also, I'm _really_ not a fan of excess packaging. I'm not a hard-core environmentalist, but waste is still waste.


----------



## Herobizkit (Jan 20, 2012)

Questions:

* The front-and-center wrapping with the 1" squares on it - can it be folded down for tabletop use?
* Could you make a battlemap out of a bunch of them? 
* Is there a bunch of them hiding in that pile somewhere?

Also of random note.  Toronto is the largest city in Canada.  If [MENTION=20741]Steel_Wind[/MENTION] is having issues with availability, imagine what the rest of Canada is feeling... especially this guy out in Nova Scotia.


----------



## Holy Bovine (Jan 20, 2012)

> Best Overall Mini: The Black Dragon. Hands down, the best large dragon miniature yet manufactured in a pre-painted miniature line.





I agree - the black dragon is the best _large_ dragon mini I've got.

Too bad it is supposed to be *huge*.  This thing is half the size of every huge dragon mini I own (which is all of them produced by WotC) with the sole exception of the huge green of which is it only about 25% smaller. 

A damn shame imo - the sculpt is outstanding.


Also - the specter as most complimentary paint job?!  Seriously?  I thought that was a terrible looking mini in both sculpt & paint.


----------



## DragonBelow (Jan 20, 2012)

*Complete set not guaranteed*

I just wanted to add that while a complete set is likely, you're not guaranteed to get one!

To quote from the FAQ @ Paizo.com:

*         Can you guarantee I will get a full set?       *

                                                    As with any randomized product, collation is  not guaranteed.  However, for each set, we will do our best to provide  an estimates of the number of cases needed to get a nearly complete set  of figures. (For the Heroes & Monsters set, one case should net a  nearly complete set.)


----------



## kitsune9 (Jan 20, 2012)

Yeah, I agree that a lot of game companies are addicted to packaging waste.


----------



## Cergorach (Jan 20, 2012)

I remember when I ordered DDM and SWM, a couple of cases generated a lot of carton and plastic waste (although folding the boxes did help a lot with the amount of waste). The biggest waste generator for prepainted miniatures to date was Rackham with Confrontation and AT-43, I was quite happy that by that time we had a plastic pickup service, it generated a couple of garbage bags full of plastic waste (and a very large box of carton).

I'm happy that a single case pretty much guarantees a full set, I've had incomplete sets with six DDM sealed cases and SWM was way worse with their super rares.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jan 20, 2012)

Good review. Pretty much sums up my impression of them.

To the guy in Victoria:  Ask the retailer what he's thinking.  Piazo's website lists 'em at $4 Medium and $6 Large (which isn't right either, with 16 mediums and only 3 larges in a brick, they should be more like $3 or $3.50 and $8 or $7 respectively - unless the retailer wants to sell out of larges and be stuck with mediums.)

But $12 Larges?  That's just crazy.


----------



## DaveMage (Jan 20, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> Nice review. I am glad you called out the packaging waste associated with these minis. That pile of trash from the packaging is pretty telling.




Agreed.

What a waste...


----------



## OpsKT (Jan 20, 2012)

Steel_Wind said:


> By the time you get through opening an entire case of minis, one thing is clear: you just spent a lot of money on throw away packaging. The sheer number of trees that died to package an entire case of [/SIZE]_Pathfinder Battles: Heroes and Monsters _is not simply wasteful -- it is *embarrassing*. Not only are we wrecking the environment with all this needless packaging, *but I am paying for the privilege of doing so*, too. All of this full color glossy illustrated cardboard comes at a significant cost – and I’m paying full retail for it. Was I happy to receive and throw away all of this crap? No and HELL NO.





Wonder how much less the packaging would have been (but the cost would have gone up) to have non-random clear blister-and-card traditional packaging?


----------



## Zaukrie (Jan 20, 2012)

The packaging waste is enough for me not to buy any. And, I've been itching to buy minis since DDM was cancelled. Embarrassing.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jan 21, 2012)

OpsKT said:


> Wonder how much less the packaging would have been (but the cost would have gone up) to have non-random clear blister-and-card traditional packaging?




It would have been so expensive to have been impossible.

Several of these miniatures will eventually appear in that format in what we're calling "Encounter Packs" of around a half-dozen minis. That product format should be more palatable for people who don't like the randomness, and who want less wasteful packaging.

That said, the only reason we can offer that format is by defraying the up-front costs with random minis, so you've got to have the random to get the non-random later.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing


----------



## Zaukrie (Jan 21, 2012)

There is way more waste than WotC had with their random minis. Randomness does not require this level of packaging waste. Too bad, I have money burning holes in my RPG budget pockets.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jan 21, 2012)

I think the waste issue is a fair criticism, and one I hope WizKids takes steps to address. Since those are not my decisions, all I can say is "that's a big pile in that there picture," and see where things go from here.

--Erik


----------



## Sammael (Jan 21, 2012)

Is there a gallery of _production_ minis on Paizo's site? If not, why not?

As someone who owns roughly 2500 DDM (and that's a small collection compared to some people on these boards), I may pick up a few minis on the secondary market, but the previewed sculpts looked too cartoony for my taste. Some comparison photos with DDM would be nice too.

The price of boosters is so insane that singles from deep discount stores (Miniature Market, RPG Locker, Auggie's) seem to be the only reasonable way to get them.


----------



## OpsKT (Jan 21, 2012)

Erik Mona said:


> I think the waste issue is a fair criticism, and one I hope WizKids takes steps to address. Since those are not my decisions, all I can say is "that's a big pile in that there picture," and see where things go from here.
> 
> --Erik




Not to burst your bubble here, but have you looked at the company you partnered with for these minis? They do good sculpts, but their packaging strategy has been pretty much that since day one. No offense, but how could you _not_ know that WizKids loves to use oil and murder trees? Okay, maybe not WizKids, but the people they contract with in China _sure_ do. And probably charge more for it. 

I know the long standing theory on pre-painted minis is _Quality, Cheap, Non-Random, pick 2_ but Paizo is a company *based* on figuring out new ways to do established business models. Maybe a new model is what this needs. 

Have you considered semi-random, pre-painted, quality, and cheap? Each blister is packed random (of 2-3 minis, based on size) in a blister on a card. Odds are out of 2-3 minis, at least one in every pack would be one that someone wants. 

Or have you considered non-random, on a blister and card, and _unpainted_. Some of us still like to paint, and like plastic because it's less likely to break. I remember a lot of players in the LGS saying that they wished Wizards would offer the unpainted minis separate like in the Board Games, cause they could paint them themselves. Or even just use them unpainted and color them with imagination. 

Just some ideas. But if you want this to work, you have to challenge the established model, otherwise you are just doing DDM v2.0 at more cost. When many of us just don't have the money to do it.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Jan 21, 2012)

OpsKT said:


> Not to burst your bubble here, but have you looked at the company you partnered with for these minis?




I  don't post in my own review threads, as people should feel entitled to tell me I'm utterly full of crap, vent and have their say unimpeded by anything that I might have to say about it.

But it seems you aren't commenting on the review, rather, you are commenting on Erik Mona's comments -- so that's a different matter.

First, you are wrong: Wizkids has sold their_ Clix_ and _Mage Knight_ line in both blind and see through starters, booster packs with 6-8 figures, 4 pack boosters, 2 packs, and one packs over the years.

Right now, they are clearly emphasizing single blind boxes in their Clix lines for reasons of making minis available at an accessible price point to teens.

And yes, Erik Mona is aware of Wizkids history and business practices. To be blunt, he's probably forgotten more about the gaming industry than you'll ever know. Moreover, he's posting in a thread on ENWorld to elucidate, clarify and inform all of us. 

Everyone on ENWorld benefits when representatives of game manufacturers post here. _ Everyone on ENWorld loses out_ when they choose not to, for fear of getting drawn into a bitch session with cranky fans.  You'll notice that it has been a LONG TIME since executives from WotC posted on ENWorld. That is not an accident.  

_*My point:*_ Just because you may disagree with Paizo's business decisions doesn't entitle you to be rude in how you express that displeasure.  Don't wreck the place for the rest of us, please.



> But if you want this to work ...



Paizo is the licensor; NECA/Wizkids is the manufacturer. 

As for "working out" -- you did read the part above where the product line *just sold out*, right?

It may not be working out_* the way you want it to*_ -- but it appears to be "working out" just fine, thank-you-very-much.

*You* are all about you; however, the product is *not all about yo**u*. It's all about the marketplace.  And you aren't the marketplace.

Try to be more fair in your criticisms and remember to separate the two.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jan 21, 2012)

Sammael said:


> Is there a gallery of _production_ minis on Paizo's site? If not, why not?




We've been posting production images on the blog every Friday for the last two months or so. We'd planned to swap in those images on the main product page this week, but the office was completely shuttered due to Seattle's snow and ice emergency over the last week, so that hasn't happened yet. As someone mentioned, you can see all of the images quite nicely on pathfinderminis.com. We'll get them on our site shortly.

--Erik


----------



## OpsKT (Jan 21, 2012)

Steel_Wind said:


> I  don't post in my own review threads, as people should feel entitled to tell me I'm utterly full of crap, vent and have their say unimpeded by anything that I might have to say about it.
> 
> But it seems you aren't commenting on the review, rather, you are commenting on Erik Mona's comments -- so that's a different matter.
> 
> ...



I was not being rude. What I was is surprised that in response to a review that is given (on a good product, I make no bones about that) that mentions the waste of packing material, and a thread that gets multiple comments on that, _that Erik comes here and acts surprised._ Unless they never thought to ask WizKids about the packaging at all, they had to have signed off on the design at least once (as it uses Paizo IP in the logo designs). Even he admits it's a big pile, in a way that almost sounds like, _"Wow, more than I was expecting."_ That may not have been his intent, but it sounded like it. 

No more than my intent was just to point out that that has been the preferred method pf packing singles for WizKids since day one. _Singles._ This is not a starter set or theme pack, so the other standard methods of WizKids packing does not apply here. If they still use that much packing on the theme sets when they come out, then we have a whole different conversation to have. But for now it is singles, and using the same packing methods as Clix _for no good apparent reason._

Second note on this, single Clix cost more than a single Pathfinder mini because the Clix have multiple moving parts. Yet these are almost the same cost, and I am pretty sure that Pathfinder as a license does not get as much as DC or Marvel. So why the same cost? 

And yes, I was aware they sold out. _So did the first run of DDM._ Long term, however, that model became unsustainable. It was short term _profit_, but not necessarily long term _value_, and I do give Paizo credit for trying to build long term value for both the company and its customers. But right now it looks like they are doing the exact same path as DDM, except less minis at a higher cost (as pointed out by others here) and we all know how DDM ended for WotC. Paizo might use similar models, but they overcame D&D/WotC in sales by doing different things with that model. So, why would they follow almost the same path as WotC in minis? 

What I am saying is, if they have a different model planned, it would be good to use it sooner than later, because long term now, it looks very iffy.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jan 21, 2012)

OpsKT said:


> Not to burst your bubble here, but have you looked at the company you partnered with for these minis? They do good sculpts, but their packaging strategy has been pretty much that since day one.




I don't understand why you are being rude to me when I'm just trying to add additional information.

As Robert has already posted, WizKids has numerous packaging methods, from single boosters to multi-figure blind boosters (in several different formats) to visible sets (in tubes, in flat packs, etc.). When we signed our license with them, the pack-out option on the minis had not been set, and was not a major part of our negotiations in any event.



OpsKT said:


> No offense, but how could you _not_ know that WizKids loves to use oil and murder trees? Okay, maybe not WizKids, but the people they contract with in China _sure_ do. And probably charge more for it.




I agree that a less wasteful packaging solution would be ideal, but at a certain point little toy men made out of oil is already an extravagant waste in the eyes of a lot of people.

My primary concern is that the miniatures look cool, are fairly priced, and represent the Pathfinder brand well. Though they are certainly more expensive than many consumers would want, I think WizKids delivered ably on all three of those issues.

How they package their product, and what formats they use, is more an area of their expertise. It's important to know that it's a big turn-off for people, and it's something we'll be discussing as we move forward with the line, but our general business practice is to partner with established experts in the field, and trust them in their areas of expertise. 



OpsKT said:


> I know the long standing theory on pre-painted minis is _Quality, Cheap, Non-Random, pick 2_ but Paizo is a company *based* on figuring out new ways to do established business models. Maybe a new model is what this needs.




Frankly, selling these things one at a time IS a new model, at least for fantasy RPG miniatures. Whether or not it's the best model is for the consumers and the market to decide, and we're still REALLY early in that process to conclude anything definitive. Rest assured that we will always be trying to find better ways to do things, and push prepainted minis in new and exciting directions. The Frost Giant with swappable weapons is one example of this, and there will be plenty more as time goes on.



OpsKT said:


> Have you considered semi-random, pre-painted, quality, and cheap? Each blister is packed random (of 2-3 minis, based on size) in a blister on a card. Odds are out of 2-3 minis, at least one in every pack would be one that someone wants.




I'm relatively certain WizKids has thought of all kinds of different distribution methods for miniatures. The product you propose would certainly have a higher price point than the current model, which might result in fewer impulse purchases. I know WizKids has had a lot of luck with the single-minis boosters for HeroClix and various licensed properties, so I assume their interest in using this method for the Pathfinder minis is based on practical market experience. In fact, I know this.



OpsKT said:


> Or have you considered non-random, on a blister and card, and _unpainted_. Some of us still like to paint, and like plastic because it's less likely to break. I remember a lot of players in the LGS saying that they wished Wizards would offer the unpainted minis separate like in the Board Games, cause they could paint them themselves. Or even just use them unpainted and color them with imagination.




No, we haven't considered this. We have a great relationship with Reaper Miniatures, who make beautiful, finely detailed metal Pathfinder miniatures for those who prefer painting miniatures. I suspect the per-unit cost on an unpainted plastic mini would be comparable to an unpainted metal miniature, but the metal miniature would likely have much finer detail, and would appeal to a market segment that currently exists and is buying miniatures. Games Workshop aside, there is not a proven market for unpainted plastic miniatures to the extent that WizKids (and Paizo) is shooting for with Pathfinder Battles, so I'm afraid this idea is a non-starter.



OpsKT said:


> Just some ideas. But if you want this to work, you have to challenge the established model, otherwise you are just doing DDM v2.0 at more cost. When many of us just don't have the money to do it.




Well, it's early yet, but I'd say that the line is already working. There are some details that require more fine-tuning (such as the waste issue discussed in Robert's review), but I'm pleased with the quality of the sculpts and the paint jobs, and I think future sets are only going to get better.

In the coming days, we'll be announcing details on the next set and the first Encounter Pack of nonrandom miniatures. The latter will likely appeal to gamers who feel the price on randoms is too expensive (though I also think those customers may be best served buying singles that they want from resellers or their FLGS). 

We'll keep trying to improve Pathfinder Battles with every release. So far, while there is definitely room for improvement here and there, I think we're off to a remarkably good start.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing


----------



## OpsKT (Jan 21, 2012)

Erik Mona said:


> I don't understand why you are being rude to me when I'm just trying to add additional information.




_I was not being rude._ I fear for the community if the phrase, "Sorry to burst your bubble." is considered being rude. Perhaps the West Coast is the most friendly work environment in the world, but I have had jobs where if they shot down the idea with JUST that phrase, it was a good day. 

Trust me, when I'm being rude, people will know. There would also be a lot of  in place of my words. I'm not a subtle guy. 

Thank you for responding to the other points. At least some other ideas were considered, and the future plans do seem pretty different. Perhaps you will do better than DDM, perhaps not. Perhaps the market for that kind of product is too limited. 

No one really knows. Even marketing projections are little more than educated guesses.

I'm just going to ignore this thread now, before I piss some other er off. 

See, that's what I mean. Not subtle.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jan 21, 2012)

Well, two strangers thought you were being rude, so take that for what it's worth. "People I work with are mean" or "you'll know when I'm _really_ being an ass" isn't a great defense, but whatever. If you didn't mean to be offensive, I'm not offended.

--Erik


----------



## darjr (Jan 21, 2012)

I was skeptical of the single boosters. but I've changed my mind. it's nice to have something in this price range that I can pick up at the store on impulse


----------



## megamania (Jan 21, 2012)

All in all I like these figures.


PROS-
well painted
well sculpted
well posed

CONS-
VERY generic choices (but expected as the first set)
packaging......   my issue isn't the single pack or the amount of pack.   Its the lack of security.   What is keeping certain groups from cherry-picking the rares and leaving the rest for sales?
No dragons?   Only the promo one? (awesome as it was but no set dragons?)

basically before I order the next set I need to know if there is variety.  Most people here (I may be wrong) were avid collectors of the DDM figures.  Do we need Dire rats?  More Orcs?  4 Goblins (repaints so really only 2).  and in no way,shape or form would I buy these in any way but as a brick through a bulk discount dealer.   Cost and security.... cost and security.


----------



## Feeroper (Jan 21, 2012)

I like the fact that Paizo/Wizkids are putting out PF specific minis, and its just nice to have more minis available in general to replace the old D&D minis, but I have a couple issues:

- I bought a couple of the 2 small mini random packs just to test the waters (already picked up the Beginner Box Heroes mini set prior to this) and Ive found these guys do not have very good durability. I dont pack them tight as noted in this review, and they are reasonably secure in a tupperware container with a few of my DDM minis as well. However after about 3 trips with them I now have 2 broken minis - I couldnt understand how this happened!

- Generally I like the minis, but I find them to look too cartooney. I thought they looked cartooney from earlier photos before they were released, and was hoping that it might be different in person, but no. They just feel like they are very much from a cartoon to me, especially when next to the DDM minis. I think it has something to do with the kind of paints used, or at least the tone of the colours. I havent really seen anyone mention this, so maybe it is just me. Does anyone else find them a little too cartooney?

Otherwise though, they are nice sculpts from what I have seen myself so far. I was also a little apalled by the massive amount of waste these suckers produce though (thanks for pointing that part out Steel_Wind, its definetly an important aspect), so Ill likely stay away from them in the future unless they change the quality/cartooney style/packaging, pretty much any combos of those improvements would do alot to get me to be a repeat customer for those minis.


----------



## Sammael (Jan 21, 2012)

OpsKT said:


> I know the long standing theory on pre-painted minis is _Quality, Cheap, Non-Random, pick 2_ but Paizo is a company *based* on figuring out new ways to do established business models. Maybe a new model is what this needs.



Actually, the choices are "wide range of miniatures," "cheap," and "non-random" - pick two.

Unfortunately, I think only the "wide range of miniatures" choice is being observed here. I imagine that the price is also higher than DDM because the minis are not manufactured by Paizo but licensed out, i.e. both Paizo and WizKids need to turn out a profit.

Looking at the gallery, these are the minis I'm interested in (so if someone were to post high-res photos of them, it'd be greatly appreciated):

Lizardfolk Champion
Half-Orc Barbarian
Medusa
Ettin
Manticore
Giant Caveweaver Spider
Succubus
Lich

The rest I either have in abundance, or the sculpts/paint jobs don't appeal to me.


----------



## IronWolf (Jan 21, 2012)

Would someone cover Erik with some XP for me. Seems I must spread some more around.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jan 21, 2012)

I understand that you don't control the issue, Erik, but thanks for the reply. While I'm a 4E guy, I still buy a bit of your more fluffy products, and have always loved Paizo's approach to fans and products. I hope the line does well, as I just can't get enough minis. I'll admit, the goblins are especially tempting.


----------



## Beolveig (Jan 22, 2012)

First, I want to say I am not complaining about the product.  I have seen the minis and believe they meet the standard of everything else put out by Paizo which means they are excellent.  The only problem I have, and I believe I represent many gamers, is the randomness of it all.  I purchase my minis on ebay only because I don't want three or four minis of the same human/demihuman.  When it comes to enemies the PCs will encounter I have no problem having multiples of the same miniature...in fact it's welcome.  I don't mind having eight goblin warriors/orc warriors/zombies/skeletons/watch guards/etc.  What I don't want is two Seelah, human paladins/three human rogues.  I know you've made the second type I've mentioned more rare, and thus will appear less likely, I still do not wish to purchase random packs for fear that I've wasted my money thus.  If anything appears as a unique PC or NPC in my game I would like it to be more unique and I think it would be nice to see these in blister packs we can choose, while the rest can be random.  I understand there is a cost in producing these and the companies need to make their money back as well as a profit, but for the love of God I do not need multiples on unique characters and will only support a secondary market until this gets fixed.  For the record, I love Paizo and what they're doing and believe they carry the true D&D torch, but money is getting scarce these days and becoming less disposable.


----------



## megamania (Jan 23, 2012)

Sammael said:


> Looking at the gallery, these are the minis I'm interested in (so if someone were to post high-res photos of them, it'd be greatly appreciated):
> 
> Lizardfolk Champion
> Half-Orc Barbarian
> ...




I thought the pictures on the Paizo Blog were very good.   From there, check e-bay (enlarge pictures given) or google and look around).   My only issue with the figures you listed above was the 1/2 Orc's arms seem short......  The Manticore seems shaped for cuteness.    But I STILL LOVE the sculpts and will be using them.

Using the Dwarf and the Clerics now in my John Play Storyhour.


----------



## megamania (Jan 23, 2012)

megamania said:


> All in all I like these figures.
> 
> 
> CONS-
> ...




Steel Winds comment-  Steel_Wind:   " Each booster is sealed with a security tape that must be cut to open the box. "

What I am hesitant about is when selling the individual boxes....not a brick.  The bricks are sealed  but the individual boxes are not.   DDM always put a dap of glue on their lids to keep people from opening the booster packs.

This doesn't stop me from buying personally... I buy a case then cherry-pick on the secondary market what I either didn't get or want more of.


----------



## Samurai (Jan 23, 2012)

Here's an idea I had... the reason for the randomness is so that people don't cherry pick and sell out on 1 mini while there are dozens of a less popular mini still left, right?  Well, how about a set that contains, say, 2 of each common mini and 1 of each uncommon and rare?  This way, you are guaranteed to get a complete set with no missing figures, you have a few multiples of the figures you really want them for like orks and goblins, and there is no cherry-picking.  It should also significantly reduce the packaging needed, for those to whom that is a big concern.

I can't speak for others, but getting a complete set was my main concern.  I'm glad that I did get a full set in the case, though it came very close (I had only 3 small boxes left to open and still needed a medusa when she finally appeared!)  I know that if you offered a set like that I would have definitely bought it.


----------



## Bluenose (Jan 23, 2012)

Samurai said:


> Here's an idea I had... the reason for the randomness is so that people don't cherry pick and sell out on 1 mini while there are dozens of a less popular mini still left, right?




The idea for the randomness is that people will buy more of your stuff if they can't get what they want immediately. 

As for the figures, you get (sometimes) what you pay for. Wizkids have used cheap plastic moulds, and got the expected results.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Jan 23, 2012)

megamania said:


> Steel Winds comment-  Steel_Wind:   " Each booster is sealed with a security tape that must be cut to open the box. "
> 
> What I am hesitant about is when selling the individual boxes....not a brick.  The bricks are sealed  but the individual boxes are not.   DDM always put a dap of glue on their lids to keep people from opening the booster packs.
> 
> This doesn't stop me from buying personally... I buy a case then cherry-pick on the secondary market what I either didn't get or want more of.




A *brick* is inirially shrink wrapped. 

An *individual box*, in which is contained one mini, large or medium (or 2 small minis) is sealed  with  a circular piece of security tape, like you would find on a software package or DVD, which secures the lid on each of the individual cartons. You can easily tell if this tape has been tampered with.

When I said the individual boxes are sealed with security tape, I was being accurate.


----------



## OhGodtheRats (Jan 24, 2012)

Just to chime in (because I think I missed where this tangent started) the security tape didn't appear on the individual boxes (containing 1 mini, etc) for a couple of folks in Germany & the UK. 
3 bricks isn't enough to create a proper data set or claim that the European shipments lack that it universally, but it's looking like a trend. On the flipside, everyone who's posted about getting their shipments in the US seems to have noticed it being there.

Not a complaint just a in-the-field report. This issue is why my local shop is going to selling minis individually rather than by the unopened box. 
-Jared


----------



## pauljathome (Jan 24, 2012)

Deleted


----------



## Alarian (Jan 24, 2012)

Paizo has said some of the initial shipments of cases and bricks were missing the security tape on the individual boxes (I know the 1 case and 1 brick I bought were missing the security tape.)  All later shipments had the security tape attached.  If you got a box without it the tape, it was from the initial shipment.

All in all I was very happy with the mini's.  Were there some I didn't like? (can you say Troll and Ogre which were both very cartoony)  Sure, but you can never be happy with 100% of the mini's in something like this.  But by and large most were great.  My favorite is the Ettin.  I even ordered a few extra of those on the secondary market.

As to the waste, I really don't think there is much of a way to reduce it.  If they reduce the box size, it will limit the mini size and really only save a tiny bit of materials, and if they make the boxes too small, it becomes too easy for someone to stick one or two into their pockets and walk off.  Plus, I'm sure they want their products to be noticed.  Sticking them into tiny little packs makes for a not real noticeable product.  Go into just about any store today and buy almost anything and 9 times out of 10 the packaging is excessive.  The one thing I can thank Mitra on is they didn't use twisty ties and heat sealed plastic packaging on everything.  That would have been a nightmare.  I personally could have cared less about the packaging.  My kids and I had a blast opening all the boxes.  It was like Christmas in January!


----------



## cyderak (Jan 25, 2012)

Honest and thorough review but i wholeheartedly disagree.

Pathfinder Minis blow D&D minis away!

For a couple reasons.
1.  The sculpts are way more intricate than D&D minis. 
2.  The small paint differences is where Pathfinder minis are better than D&D minis.  One example is the goatee on the ranger. (Although some of the Pastel colors could have been darker.)
3.  Some of the most realistic spider minis I have ever seen.  The Caveweaver scared the crap out of my daughter.
4.  THE GOBLINS.  These creepy little bastards make PC's afraid of creatures with small hands........smell like cabbage!  And that maw full of pointy teeth that crawls its way almost all the way around their heads. 
5.  Three words.......HUGE BLACK DRAGON!!........That......Just......Happened!!





And as for the packaging,  Quit yur whining and open your PATHFINDER BATTLES minis over a recycling bin.  The cardboard and plastic sleeves are recyclable.  And if you throw the packaging right into the bin there is no mess to clean up.  As for why they do that,  its to standardize packaging.  If they did separate packaging for cases and "ready-for-sale" bricks they'd have to spend more money on logistics of moving that packaging around for changovers from one to the other and then instead of having one product to try and sell,  you now have 2 different styles of packaging that your pigeon-holed into trying to sell.  This way its sold one way and theirs no real surplus of one or the other.

Besides that, if you weighed out the amount of cardboard used on the older Pre-painted plastic minis lines like Star wars minis or D&D minis or the LOTR minis,  per mini I think they'd be about equal.  As for the flimsy-ness of the packaging........I don't know about you guys but I'm not going to be displaying the packaging from my Pathfinder minis.  its going in the recycling bin.


----------



## MaddogRy (Feb 7, 2012)

*Pathfinder mini security*

Im glad I came by and saw this thread.  I ordered several random single packs of the new pathfinder minis just to test the water with them, and I immediately disliked the product due to its lack of security.  The boxes I recieved had only a small strip of clear tape holding the lids closed, and with easy effort i could remove it without damaging or marking the package.  I bought from trollandtoad and havent had trust issues with them yet, but obviously they are a business that generates significant money through selling the desirable and rare singles.  

I resolved not to buy any more pathfinder packs because of this.  But if they have added a better security feature I might be willing to try them again.  Buying cases is difficult for me to justify (or try to explain to my wife ), so i just pick up a few of what i want every now and again.  
Thanks for the update


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Feb 8, 2012)

I agree with parts of this review, and disagree with others.

In particular the packaging, which is a give and take - the material used in the PFB minis is a bit more fragile than that of the DDM figures. The packaging does a better job supporting and protecting the miniatures, and they need that extra protection.

I do think that another approach could have been used - possibly cardboard strips instead of vacuum formed plastic. However, by its nature, it is very easy to make a vacuum formed packaging to custom fit a product. 

I do not much like this packaging, but I do understand it.

The price... I am in an odd position on that one - I am likely to repaint any PFB figures that I get.

Compared to quality metal or resin miniatures of the human and smaller critters they lack detail. Compared to unpainted plastics from GW, Wargames Factory, or Mantic they also suffer. For painting (or repainting) these are pricy for the level of detail.

Compared to DDM... they fare much better. Taken as themselves, I think that they are a much more worthwhile purchase than DDM, even given the difference in price, at least for the human and smaller figures. (The DDM human and smaller figures were really pretty danged poor in my estimation.)

Detail.... Comparing only to DDM for reasons given above - the larger figures are comparable, with neither much better nor much worse, though the paint jobs on the PFB minis seem slightly better. I like the Large spider, and the Large ogre (or will after a repaint). The Large ettin... I have too many of. 

The troll... maybe as an adolescent? Against the Reaper Pathfinder trolls he seems pretty small. I will be using him as a young 'un.

The frost giant, not bad, I will keep and repaint him.

But my favorite is the female druid in the very non exciting pose. She looks... practical. The medusa will be painted to match a figure by Studio McVey, a mirrored pose, similar dress, and the snake.












One or the other is using an illusion to change their appearance....

The Auld Grump


----------



## TheBigBlueFrog (Jul 25, 2012)

The packaging didn't bother me, mainly because (a) I'm going to keep one brick's worth of packaging in case I sell the minis in the future, and (b) I have access to plenty of plastic recycling spots to choose from. The plastic inside the boxes is either PETE or HDPE. Pretty sure it's PETE. I'll just throw it in with my recyclable water bottles. The cardboard will go with my junk-mail recycling.

What bothered me most was the crooked arrows on the ranger and the crooked trident on the lizardfolk champion. That, and the inconsistencies between different bases. Some of the minis are on little discs which are glued to the bases. Some are directly glued to the bases. I'd prefer all of them to be on the discs, because it would make it easier to decorate the bases and have the feet not get bogged down in the basing materials.


----------



## prosfilaes (Aug 16, 2012)

I know it's old, but for what it's worth, I bought a number of these one at a time at the game store to round out purchases. I spent an amount I don't want to think about, $5 at a time. Packaging them in larger batches would have meant I wouldn't have bought them.


----------

