# Single women gamers



## SemperJase (Oct 1, 2002)

I've recently started gaming with a group that has a single woman participant. She is actually the first single woman gamer I've played with. The few other women gamers have all been married (or in a cohabiting relationship) and have been recruited by their husbands. 

This single woman has many stories about being propositioned constantly at conventions. She accepts it as par for the course and views it light heartedly. 

So ladies, how are you treated by other gamers?  Is your experience the same? Do you like have your pick of any single male gamer?   Is that a benefit to gaming?


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## Wolfspirit (Oct 1, 2002)

I can't answer that personaly since, well, I'm a single guy that probably would be hitting on any single woman that didn't seem to mind.  However my female gaming friends are pretty used to guys hitting on them.  Of course, we're all Ren-Faire goers, so pretty much anything at con is a lot tamer than what you'd get at Faire.

On the other hand, one of my friends that was wearing faire garb at Dragon*Con this year pretty much consisting of a bikini top and a skirt said that she was about to slap some people.  And her black belt husband probably would have kicked their rears if it came to that :b


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## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 1, 2002)

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02052002.html


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## Ashtal (Oct 1, 2002)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *So ladies, how are you treated by other gamers?  Is your experience the same? Do you like have your pick of any single male gamer?   Is that a benefit to gaming? *




There are some ... odd-fellas that you may attract, especially at Cons.  Wowsers.

But yes, in theory, the pick of single male gamers is to our advantage.  So many of them, so few of us. 

I missed out, I suppose.  For me, it was the other way around - I brought my boyfriend into gaming.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 1, 2002)

LMAO!


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## Henry (Oct 1, 2002)

I know one or two single female gamers, but do not actively game with them. One is family, the other is a distant acquaintence. Most of my experiences have been with married female gamers, but of who got whom into gaming, the stories vary.


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## hellbender (Oct 1, 2002)

Not a single female here, but I have run games with them in the past, and I much prefer running games with single women (impartially) than playing in games with a couple as the female usually got all the neat sparkly things, and the rest of the party got to hold the sack. I am always a bit leery of playing in games with couples for this reason and have gone to lengths to not do this when running a game that a female I was co-habiting with was a player.

bending hell


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## Umbran (Oct 1, 2002)

From what I've seen and heard, being single isn't part of the equation at conventions.  The guys don't bother to find out if the lady is single before making a pass....


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## Happy Monkey (Oct 1, 2002)

From a male perspective and from a single perspective too, in my experience I far prefer single female players.

Not just for the obvious reason! 

Couples that play seem to have a harder time trying to be IC, their pcs seem to gravitate towards each other. Sometimes this is ridiculous or just downright annoying.

Female players tend to have a nice affect on party dynamics IMO. Hard to put a finger on it, I think in that they are a bit more cohesive?


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## SemperJase (Oct 1, 2002)

Happy Monkey said:
			
		

> *Couples that play seem to have a harder time trying to be IC, their pcs seem to gravitate towards each other. Sometimes this is ridiculous or just downright annoying.
> *




I haven't found this to be any different from people who have known each other for long periods of time. In my previous group two guys had known each other for 20 years. Their characters always teamed up when they were playing (normally one of them was the DM). Even then, the other player seemed to get more attention. That is only natural. 

Does your view extend to long time close friends?


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## Celebrim (Oct 1, 2002)

In my experience, they don't stay single for long.  With hordes of single male gamers idolizing them, it usually isn't too long before they find one whose attention they actually like.  YMMV.


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## rathor (Oct 1, 2002)

*i play with one*

i play with a single female gamer often.  she is good, but she stays quiet and doesn't contribute much to rpg conversation.  I think she is intimidated by the "boys".  She thinks hard and fast about her actions though, and generally always manages to make the smartest moves in combat and at puzzle solving.  Except for her tendacy to roll ones and her tedious silence... i enjoy playing with her.  I don't belive I would date her though.


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## Crothian (Oct 1, 2002)

I had a group of female gamers a few years back.  I called them my Valkerye group.  One guy DMing for 5 single women.  That was an experience.  

I never noticed anyone hitting on them at cons or such.  Then again I've only noticed one guy ever hitting on a girl at a con, but that's when I was working the con.  You tend to notice different things when you work a con.


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## Rel (Oct 1, 2002)

Regardless of whether you find a single gamer girl and get involved with her or find any other single girl and get her involved in gaming, nothing beats a girl who games.

Otherwise they tend to look at you funny when you yell, "NATURAL 20!" at certain intimate moments.


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## Crothian (Oct 1, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *Otherwise they tend to look at you funny when you yell, "NATURAL 20!" at certain intimate moments. *




LMAO, I wonder if Morrus is aware of the free publicity you are giving his publishing company?


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## Maraxle (Oct 1, 2002)

In asking one of my female gaming friends, she gave me this little bit of insight:

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.


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## Ashtal (Oct 1, 2002)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> *In asking one of my female gaming friends, she gave me this little bit of insight:
> 
> The odds are good, but the goods are odd. *




I'm sorry but ...

*LOLOLOLOLOLOL*

In a good way, of course.


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## Crothian (Oct 1, 2002)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> *In asking one of my female gaming friends, she gave me this little bit of insight:
> 
> The odds are good, but the goods are odd. *




THat has an erie ring of truth to it.


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## Sinistar (Oct 1, 2002)

Thank you Meepo the Mighty for that wonderful link. I have not seen this comic (and I am a big fan of the online comics) yet, so it was wonderful to see.


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## Rel (Oct 1, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> LMAO, I wonder if Morrus is aware of the free publicity you are giving his publishing company?   *




Well, the market I'm spreading the word to is very small (limited to my wife).  But I'm VERY enthusiastic about it.


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## shouit (Oct 1, 2002)

I was my fiance's DM before I even dated her.  She was dating another guy, whom I didn't know really all that well.  I don't think the stereo type that couples are easier on each other or that they tend to be OOC a lot is all together accurate.  I have seen both sides of the token, and I tend to be more mean towards her than the other players simple because I don't want that to crop up.  Easier to lean on the side of too mean then not enough.  I also gamed with another couple and he actually killed her character.  My fiance's has been to -9 before someone got to her to stablizer.  

As for single female gamers, I have met a few of them in my day, not a lot be few.   But the ones I have met have been at both sides of the spectrum, quiet to really really, really loud.  I will say this, most of the ones that I have met have gotten into gaming because of a previous boyfriend and they got hooked.  Has anyone else found this to be true?


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## hellbender (Oct 1, 2002)

shouit said:
			
		

> *I was my fiance's DM before I even dated her.  She was dating another guy, whom I didn't know really all that well.  I don't think the stereo type that couples are easier on each other or that they tend to be OOC a lot is all together accurate.  I have seen both sides of the token, and I tend to be more mean towards her than the other players simple because I don't want that to crop up.  Easier to lean on the side of too mean then not enough.  I also gamed with another couple and he actually killed her character.  My fiance's has been to -9 before someone got to her to stablizer. *




    However, I have seen this occur more often than not to the extent that it seems a waste of time to join in on such a game unless I already know the people involved. Of course there are exceptions to rules, yet with my experience, I rather not even get started in a group with a couple (one running the game, the other playing). 

hellbender


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## Dragongirl (Oct 1, 2002)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> *In asking one of my female gaming friends, she gave me this little bit of insight:
> 
> The odds are good, but the goods are odd. *




Hahahahhaha, as a single female gamer I just can't stop chuckling at this one.  Good one!!!


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## Buttercup (Oct 1, 2002)

shouit said:
			
		

> * I don't think the stereo type that couples are easier on each other or that they tend to be OOC a lot is all together accurate.   *




Heh.  I killed my husband's character in our last session.  He did a really stupid thing and, well, buh-bye.

As for single women gamers, we have one in our T20 game, and the two single guys in the group haven't hit on her yet.  She's beautiful, and smart too.  But flirthing isn't something that happens at the gaming table in my circle.  

Oh, and for the record, I brought my husband into gaming, not the other way around.


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## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 1, 2002)

Sinistar said:
			
		

> *Thank you Meepo the Mighty for that wonderful link. I have not seen this comic (and I am a big fan of the online comics) yet, so it was wonderful to see. *





Check out the archives, there are a lot of gaming-related strips on that site.  A lot of the humor is pretty twisted, but I like it like that


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## Knightcrawler (Oct 1, 2002)

Yeah I've seen it.  A single woman joins a game group and most of the single males are alling all over themselves to try and date her.  Luckily I've been lucky with my past few gaming groups, they were to mature for such high school stuff.  The younger your players are the more it seems to happen.

As to having a couple play I have to disagree.  Currently a married couple is playing in my campaign.  They play very well and their characters only gravitate towards one another every once and a while.  Of course when one is a half-orc and the other is a dwarf its pretty much a moot point.

My gaming groups started having a standing rule of no extraneous people at or around the gaming table.  And this was usually extended to the house or apartment we were playing in.  In other words; no wives, girlfriends, significant others, hangers-on, etc.  If they weren't seriously interested in gaming, they weren't there.


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## maddman75 (Oct 2, 2002)

I've gamed with single women a lot in the past - have two in my group right now.  At one point I had four.

Only one of them tried to give me cute little pouty lips when her character got attacked.  That just made me use PA next round.....


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## ForceUser (Oct 2, 2002)

I've gamed with many females over the years; most were married or in a relationship. I have to be honest, if an attractive female gamer joined my group I'd have a hard time not hitting on her. Gaming is, after all, a social hobby.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Couples that play seem to have a harder time trying to be IC, their pcs seem to gravitate towards each other. Sometimes this is ridiculous or just downright annoying.[/B]_



_

All I have to say is that I feel sorry for any romantic couple that have a problem roleplaying, in game or not.  _


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## Ezrael (Oct 2, 2002)

It's funny...we had one of my cousins in my original game group. Of course, she was both my cousin and twelve when we started playing, so I wouldn't have hit on her even if I hadn't feared her.

But after that, no, I never played with a single female again. It's not like I have anything against it, it just never happened. I did get hit on by the staff of a Wizards store once (It was all female, and all entirely too young for me) to the great amusement of my fiancee...and no, she doesn't game. It seems to me that the hobby is stablizing a bit in terms of gender.


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## roytheodd (Oct 2, 2002)

I actually got me a gamer girl who was single when I met her. I was working in a game store and she came in frequently. The moment I learned she was available I made a move, she returned it, and shazam!! The funny is, there's actually a good turn-over rate with the gamers here, so you'll see a guy and a girl together for a couple of months and then they split, so the gals are often being returned to the pool. Of course the guys talk about how crazy the girls are for leaving them, but then you realize that even gamer girls aren't the same as gamer guys and that a gamer guy needs a few other cross-over interests with her to make it work. Me and my gal will have been together a year this November and we're looking at the long-term now.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

roytheodd said:
			
		

> *I actually got me a gamer girl who was single when I met her. I was working in a game store and she came in frequently. The moment I learned she was available I made a move, she returned it, and shazam!! The funny is, there's actually a good turn-over rate with the gamers here, so you'll see a guy and a girl together for a couple of months and then they split, so the gals are often being returned to the pool. Of course the guys talk about how crazy the girls are for leaving them, but then you realize that even gamer girls aren't the same as gamer guys and that a gamer guy needs a few other cross-over interests with her to make it work. Me and my gal will have been together a year this November and we're looking at the long-term now.  *




Have your "girl" read your post.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

I have had single female gamers in the last two of my three groups.

I hit on two of them, but in neither case did it actually happen in the game (rather it was in social situations) and in neither case did it affect the group.


This time I know that one of the other male gamers in my group is interested in her but he hasn't let it affect things.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

Personally I have never been hit on by other players during gaming sessions......although I have upon occasion had my character being hit on by one of theirs.  Being hit on by players outside of sessions is another thing altogether.  As for conventions, I have never gone to a gaming one.  I have been to Sci Fi ones in the past and found them tedious and with too many men who live in their fantasy minds and wouldn't know what to do with a real woman when they find one. (And no I am not saying EVERY man going to these are like that).

Those experiences probably help keep me away from a gaming Con but another thing is that I would go crazy not having enough money to buy everything I would want at one.


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## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

Tuerny said:
			
		

> *I hit on two of them, but in neither case did it actually happen in the game (rather it was in social situations) and in neither case did it affect the group.
> *




So dish! How did it turn out. Did they shoot you down gently, or did you get the date?


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## Redleg06 (Oct 2, 2002)

I had this conversation with a single female gamer on a Cyberpunk chat site. Generally I agree wtih the initial statement. Most FG (Female Gamers) I have known were there because their boyfriend sat through Les Miserables with them and they owed him!  The others were boyfriend hunting (which ahs always struck me as odd).  I have never personally known a woman who was a gamer into gaming for the sake of gaming.

I'm not saying they are not out there and should not be welcomed, far from it, I just have never met one.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

> _I have never personally known a woman who was a gamer into gaming for the sake of gaming.
> 
> I'm not saying they are not out there and should not be welcomed, far from it, I just have never met one. [/B]_



_

::Waves:: Hello Redleg, nice to meet you.  I am female gamer that games because she wants to. ::extends hand for shake::_


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## Redleg06 (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> ::Waves:: Hello Redleg, nice to meet you.  I am female gamer that games because she wants to. ::extends hand for shake:: *




PLeasure to meet you ma'am! (Tips the hat he is not wearing)


I should caviot my first statement.  I have never met a gamer girl IN PERSON who was into gaming for gaming's sake. I have met two others (besides Dragongirl) both are from Finland and are on a Cyberpunk chat site.

So in reality they may all be the same guy who's sitting in his den in Detroit laughing at me...


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## Neo (Oct 2, 2002)

I have to say I find the idea of any single female gamers being surprised they are hit on somewhat amusing.... I mean Gaming is no different than any other social event it is an ideal forum to meet people.

Of course Female RPG'ers are something akin to the Holy Grail being extremely rare and little more than a myth in the UK, 

most male gamers would give their right arm to end up dating or married to someone who shares their love of the hobby..I mean no hassles for spending so much time gaming with your friends as they;d be there, no hassles for spending so much money on gaming material as they'd want to buy stuff too!, no hassles constantly talking about the game last week....as they'd have stories to tell too and be able to relate to what your saying.....

sheesh.... sounds like Heaven to me!!! )


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## Ashtal (Oct 2, 2002)

Redleg06 said:
			
		

> *I have never personally known a woman who was a gamer into gaming for the sake of gaming.
> 
> I'm not saying they are not out there and should not be welcomed, far from it, I just have never met one. *




I, too, and a girl gamer who got into gaming all on her own - and converted her brother, two boyfriends, and four female friends.

We're out there.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So dish! How did it turn out. Did they shoot you down gently, or did you get the date? *




Aren't you that moral absolutist from the Evil thread? 

j/k

One shot me down and the other was noncomittal.

Before she was able to decide one way or another I got attached to my current squeeze who I will refrain from posting a picture of for the sake of the sanity of everyone on the board (I am in love I can't help it. I can talk about her for hours if needbe.  )


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## Wolfspirit (Oct 2, 2002)

Oh, I should mention that I, as a single male gamer, get hit on all the time by the females of the group, especially the married one.  Appearantly there's something funny about watching me blush.

Oh, funny example.  The married Female Gamer has a tendency to accidently play footsie with anyone she's sitting next to.  I made a joking comment that that had never happened to me, and suddenly she started rubbing my leg with her foot.  Everyone laughed as I turned red as a beet.

This happened on one of the nights that her husband was DMing.

I dropped to negative 9 hp that game.  (Of course, I know he didn't do that on purpose, I just thought it was rather funny).

Oh, and for Something Positive, I also like http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp01182002.html


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

Don't know about women in general, but for me a man blushing is very.....(nope can't use that word will get odd replies)....um....intriguing, there that will work.  Maybe it is an innocence thing, a man that can blush can't be a total jerk.


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## boothbey (Oct 2, 2002)

She keeps me blushing all the time.  Lucky me.


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## Ulrick (Oct 2, 2002)

A couple months ago my Greyhawk Campaign got a female gamer.  She is attractive, great personality, and so forth.

And its been whispered that I have the hots for her.

To further fuel these whisperings, the PCs were going through the Forge of Fury, they beat the main bad guy at the end (no spoilers here) and looted his horde.  Now, you ask, how would this make things worse?

She got the +2 Dwarven Waraxe.  She's plays a dwarf cleric.

The rest of the party didn't get any other magic item...

grrr...

Ulrick


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## Ulrick (Oct 2, 2002)

_Women have a distinct advantage in this field [bribing the DM with sex] as by far the majority of players and GMs are men, and the appearance of a person of the female persuasion in a roleplaying group is enough to get dimly remembered glands into overdrive.  Even if she looks like a horse with impetigo.

If your GM starts to protest about some action that you are about to perform, pout, breathe interestingly, flash some leg or cleavage, or tighten you trousers  Fiddle with your dice in a suggestive way, suck the end of your pencil and if all else fails, whisper some lewd into the GM's ear.  They should be putty in your hands..._

--From "Bribing and Corrupting the GM," 
The Complete Munchkins Guide to Power Gaming by James "Grim" Desborough and Steve Mortimer, Steve Jackson Games, 1999.

 

Ulrick


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## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

Tuerny [/i][B]
Before she was able to decide one way or another I got attached to my current squeeze who I will refrain from posting a picture of for the sake of the sanity of everyone on the board (I am in love I can't help it. I can talk about her for horus if needbe. ;) ) [/B][/QUOTE]

But does she game?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ulrick said:
			
		

> *She is attractive, great personality, and so forth.
> And its been whispered that I have the hots for her.
> *




OK, when you describe someone as attractive with a good personality, you are leaning towards having the hots for her. 
 

If you have or have been tempted to pull her pony tail because of the dwarven axe, I would say that cinches it.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But does she game?
> 
> ...





Not yet but she thinks it is really cool and wants to try. :-D

Gahhhhh!!!!!
Must post picture...overwhelmed by urge......


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

She reminds me of one of the designers on the TLC show Trading Spaces.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

TLC?

The Learning Channel?


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## Wolfspirit (Oct 2, 2002)

Ulrick said:
			
		

> *A couple months ago my Greyhawk Campaign got a female gamer.  She is attractive, great personality, and so forth.
> 
> And its been whispered that I have the hots for her.
> 
> ...




If I were you and did NOT have the hots for said attractive girl with great personality and so forth, I'd whip out the module and show them the fact that it the +2 Dwarven Waraxe was written there.  It would also help if you didn't have anything to do with the fact that she in particular got the axe.  Heck, they could have just sold the thing and split the money, right?

Of course, I'd also have to wonder what was wrong with me if I didn't have the hots for said attractive girl with great personality and so forth, but then again I'm an enternaly single guy


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## Wolfspirit (Oct 2, 2002)

Tuerny said:
			
		

> *TLC?
> 
> The Learning Channel? *




Yeah, Trading Spaces is a show on the Learning Channel where two groups of two redecorate one of each others' rooms with the help of a desinger.
...
*cough* Not that I watch it or anything.

BTW, Dragongirl, is this who you were thinking about?
http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/tradingspaces/bio/photo/genevieve_zoom5.html


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## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

Tuerny said:
			
		

> *
> Not yet but she thinks it is really cool and wants to try. :-D
> 
> Must post picture...overwhelmed by urge...... *




Awwww! How cute! And even expressing interest in the game. Now if it turns out she likes it, you have the perfect girlfriend. That would be a keeper.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

Yeah well she has the other prerequisite interests, she is into anime and fantasy novels (Though I am trying to get her over her dedication that the only writer greater than R.A. Salvatore is Edger Allen Poe  ) and she thinks the idea sounds very, very fun 

She is perfect for me in most every other way for me too. I have already decided that if our relationship survives a few more years I am going to propose.


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## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

Wolfspirit said:
			
		

> *
> Yeah, Trading Spaces is a show on the Learning Channel where two groups of two redecorate one of each others' rooms with the help of a desinger.
> ...
> *cough* Not that I watch it or anything.
> *




Yeah, and some of the designers are Frank, Genevieve, Doug, and Vern. At least that's what TV Guide says. *ahem*



			
				Tuerny said:
			
		

> *I have already decided that if our relationship survives a few more years I am going to propose.  *




Years? Don't spin your wheels. It doesn't take years to know. But then again that's just my opinion. Good luck with that.


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## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Years? Don't spin your wheels. It doesn't take years to know. But then again that's just my opinion. Good luck with that. *





True, but I think we should finish college first.

Thanks


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## DM_Matt (Oct 2, 2002)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> *In asking one of my female gaming friends, she gave me this little bit of insight:
> 
> The odds are good, but the goods are odd. *




Supposedly, that term first originated among girls at the many colleges in and around Boston to refer to parties at MIT


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## Knightcrawler (Oct 2, 2002)

Never had a female gamer in my D&D groups that I was actually interested in dating.  Had some Vampire games that had some interesting girls playing.

I had one group that sorta broke up because of two people dating.  They met and started gaming through the group.  Then a year later with a very messy breakup it also helped break up the gaming group.

I envy you guys who have a girl that shares your gaming interests.


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## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

MUHAHAAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!

*gloats since he has a gamer gf *

Now, if only I could convince her to DM, hehe.

Btw, she didn't get into gaming through a boyfriend... her dad is a gamer and all her brothers play, so it was just part of her childhood . Lucky girl, lol. We met "gaming" sort of... we were both on EQ and into the RP end of it. Still can't beleive how lucky I am sometimes .


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## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

Ya The Learning Channel, anyway she reminds me of Genevieve Gorder.  Kinda hard to tell from these pics but here are some : 

http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/tradingspaces/bio/photo/genevieve.html


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *All I have to say is that I feel sorry for any romantic couple that have a problem roleplaying, in game or not.
> ...
> Those experiences probably help keep me away from a gaming Con but another thing is that I would go crazy not having enough money to buy everything I would want at one.
> ...
> Don't know about women in general, but for me a man blushing is very.....(nope can't use that word will get odd replies)....um....intriguing, there that will work. Maybe it is an innocence thing, a man that can blush can't be a total jerk. *




Dragongirl, after reading those posts, it's almost a shame that I'm NOT single.  If I were, you'd have a guy hitting on you on a message board, which, depending on your perspective, might be even creepier than being hit on at Con.

For the record, I've never played with a female gamer at all.  I'd give my left arm to, if only as a break from the overblown testosterone of the guys I used to game with.   

btw- Tangential topic at best, but... My girlfriend isn't a gamer, but she did get involved with a game of Mage for a while when she was studying in New Zealand.  I can't get her into anything more elaborate than Neverwinter Nights here, but when she goes to _another country_ it's a different story.  That just seems unfair.


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## Umbran (Oct 2, 2002)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *Years? Don't spin your wheels. It doesn't take years to know. But then again that's just my opinion. Good luck with that. *




It may not take years for yoyu.  For some it might.  In any case, there's a whole world of difference betwen knowing, and actually being ready for it.

I'll give conflicting advice - don't rush.  There's nothing to be gained by being hasty.  Far better to be emotionally and financially ready for it.


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## Thyrkill (Oct 2, 2002)

I must concur with Canis...Dragongirl is most intriguing.

As for single girls in my game, none so far. I do have a single gay man though...and you should see the others blush when he flirts with them. Very lewd and entertaining  

Matt


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## S'mon (Oct 2, 2002)

Thyrkill said:
			
		

> *I must concur with Canis...Dragongirl is most intriguing.
> 
> As for single girls in my game, none so far. I do have a single gay man though...and you should see the others blush when he flirts with them. Very lewd and entertaining
> 
> Matt *




Not sure if I could deal with that in my game.  My wife talked about inviting a gay gamer work colleague of hers to my game, which is a typical bunch of heterosexual males.  I guess female gamers rarely get flirtatious in round-table games, so probably a gay gamer wouldn't either unless the setting was very relaxed, but still I worry a bit.  I know I was a little bit uncomfortable with Angelsboi playing a cute female PC in a PBEM I ran a while back.


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## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *She reminds me of one of the designers on the TLC show Trading Spaces. *




If I could have my way, I'd marry Amy Winn.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 2, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *MUHAHAAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!
> 
> *gloats since he has a gamer gf *
> 
> ...





Heh...a buddy of mine "married" a girl on EQ....turned out "she" was a guy


----------



## FriendlyFiend (Oct 2, 2002)

Neo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Of course Female RPG'ers are something akin to the Holy Grail being extremely rare and little more than a myth in the UK,
> 
> most male gamers would give their right arm to end up dating or married to someone who shares their love of the hobby.. *




Then again, according to the stereotype, most male gamers would give their right arm to date anyone


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

FriendlyFiend said:
			
		

> *Then again, according to the stereotype, most male gamers would give their right arm to date anyone  *




Doubt they could give up their right arms!!  I mean that is what most of them use for.......nevermind.  Anyway, maybe the left arm though.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 2, 2002)

Neo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> most male gamers would give their right arm to end up dating or married to someone who shares their love of the hobby..I mean no hassles for spending so much time gaming with your friends as they'd be there, no hassles for spending so much money on gaming material as they'd want to buy stuff too!, no hassles constantly talking about the game last week....as they'd have stories to tell too and be able to relate to what your saying.....
> 
> sheesh.... sounds like Heaven to me!!! ) *




It is Heaven 

Nothing is better than going out to a romantic dinner and mentioning you picked up Spycraft and she says "I'm not really interesting in another game... I've just been getting into the D&D fantasy gaming" and then proceeds to ask you a bit about it ending up with her saying "That sounds SOOO cool, when can we make up my character" 

It is all about luck. She didn't game before she met me at all but wanted to get into some of the interests that took up my spare time... I think she would avoid Cons though for some of the reasons posted in this thread...  And since I don't have a decent scanned pic I took a digital snap of her picture on my office wall 

-W.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 2, 2002)

Beautiful girl, Will!


----------



## S'mon (Oct 2, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *Beautiful girl, Will! *




Yeah, I can see why you would want to keep her away from Cons... especially in that outfit...


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 2, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *Beautiful girl, Will! *




Hey, yours ain't half bad either my friend  Does she game? 

-Will


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 2, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah, I can see why you would want to keep her away from Cons... especially in that outfit...  *




My thoughts exactly S'mon! 

-W.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 2, 2002)

You're a clever man, Will


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 2, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *You're a clever man, Will  *




So ummm... come to Paris


----------



## Horacio (Oct 2, 2002)

LcKedovan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So ummm... come to Paris  *




I'd love to. And I'll try it. But, sadly, no promises. It's a bit far, and wife & daughter maybe don't like the idea... But I'll try!


----------



## Neo (Oct 2, 2002)

Ashtal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I, too, and a girl gamer who got into gaming all on her own - and converted her brother, two boyfriends, and four female friends.
> 
> We're out there.  *




heh now all we need to do is isolate the Gaming Gene and ensure the rest of the female popul;ace is injected with it LOL


----------



## Gothmog (Oct 2, 2002)

I'll agree with others who have said that having a significant other who games is paradise.  My girlfriend didn't game before we met, but she has always been into fantasy, horror, H.P. Lovecraft, video games, and collecting things (so she understands the collection compulsion of most gamers  ).  We talk about gaming a lot of the time- she'll have a thought over dinner and we'll start discussing adventure ideas or cool character concepts.  Its even gotten to the point when we go into a game store that she'll pick up 2-3 sets of dice for herself, or bring a set of minis or book over to me, telling me "You have to get this".  I also have the added bonus that she doesn't like girly movies or tearjerkers- in fact her favorite movies are the Evil Dead movies and the one we watched on out first date was Army of Darkness.  We have gone to one con before, she wasn't too wigged about about being hit on by some of the guys, and she was even told she was "really cute" by Bruce Campbell when he visited campus here about a year ago on his book signing tour.  If you guys haven't found a gamer girl yet, keep plugging fellas, its worth it!  

Here's a pic of her with her Alice Cooper collection.


----------



## Vaxalon (Oct 2, 2002)

Remember that the quality of gamers you find at conventions is inferior to that which you find at a long-running game group.

All you have to have to game at a convention is the money (and sometimes people get in that don't even have that).

In order to stay a member of a long-running game group, you need a certain modicum of social skill.  Even the most peurile group will still kick you out if you violate the social norms too badly.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 2, 2002)

Redleg06 said:
			
		

> *I have never personally known a woman who was a gamer into gaming for the sake of gaming.*




Did you read my post upthread?  I swear I'm real.  I game because I like it.  Even if my husband stops, I'll still game.


----------



## Darth Biere (Oct 2, 2002)

I'll be the first to admit, the scene here in the beltbuckle of the south isn't that pleasent in terms of meeting the single woman gamer.   But that could be because I work an off shift and don't get out much. I think I better stop here before I sound like a personal ad.


----------



## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

Thyrkill said:
			
		

> *I do have a single gay man though...and you should see the others blush when he flirts with them. Very lewd and entertaining
> Matt *




This isn't disruptive? Isn't it just as bad for a homosexual to continue making unwanted advances to other men as it is for other guys to accost the women at the table?


----------



## Bagpuss (Oct 2, 2002)

Neo said:
			
		

> *Of course Female RPG'ers are something akin to the Holy Grail being extremely rare and little more than a myth in the UK,
> *




Speak for yourself, when I was gaming at University I can't remember a single game I played in where there was not at least one girl and the majority of the time it was roughly a 50% split.

At conventions I've been to most games I've played have had the same demographic. Even after university there have always been women at my gaming table.

Perhaps its because I'm so cute and cuddly.


----------



## Neo (Oct 2, 2002)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Speak for yourself, when I was gaming at University I can't remember a single game I played in where there was not at least one girl and the majority of the time it was roughly a 50% split.
> 
> ...




I think you've just been lucky, in 22 years during which I've GM'ed/Played in numerous school and college RPG clubs, community clubs, and friend groups... I can easily count the number of female gamers I've seen and played with....its three..no more, no less.  And where I live Sheffield is a student city..... so if they are out there they are all very low key, of course Sheffield is also a big clubbing place....so I guess theres a few too many other distractions LOL


----------



## MEG Hal (Oct 2, 2002)

I have had a lot of ladies show interest in RPG's when I tell them what I do, but I have yet to invite one to play.  My fear is that if I do that before I know I want a relationship, if it goes bad *but* she likes gaming that would be uncomfortable, my ex-wife never gamed and prolly did not know what D&D was....but that is not what did us in, it was her being a *&%*^$%(^%(  Just kidding .


----------



## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

Meepo wrote:
**Heh...a buddy of mine "married" a girl on EQ....turned out "she" was a guy **

Well, that's always a worry . We were both pretty hard-core EQ'ers, involved in alot of RP'ing therein. We started out as friends, and overt time got to know each other more and more. After we became romanticly interested in each other, I made sure to talk to her on the phone before I let my feelings grow too much. I had heard too many horror stories...

When we met in person, it cleared up everything anyway . We've been living together nearly two years now!

The funny thing is that I had basicly "retired" from pen and paper RP since I had moved away from my home town 10 years ago... and she's the one that got me back into the hobby . She's a great RP'er and is amazingly creative in her game play. I'm trying to convince her to DM now, hehe .

Might as well post her picture since everyone else is posting theirs .


----------



## Jarval (Oct 2, 2002)

Like Bagpuss, I've never really thought female gamers are rare in the UK.  At least half the people I game with are women.  Of course, I might have a different perspective on this, as everyone I game with I've introduced to RPGs.  I sometimes wonder if there are any other gamers in my area apart from me and my group.


----------



## Wolvorine (Oct 2, 2002)

*I'm sure someone's said it already, but god it's so easy...*



			
				Tuerny said:
			
		

> * (I am in love I can't help it. I can talk about her for horus if needbe.  ) *




Does Horus *really* need to hear about her?


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)




----------



## buzzard (Oct 2, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *Remember that the quality of gamers you find at conventions is inferior to that which you find at a long-running game group.
> 
> All you have to have to game at a convention is the money (and sometimes people get in that don't even have that).
> 
> In order to stay a member of a long-running game group, you need a certain modicum of social skill.  Even the most peurile group will still kick you out if you violate the social norms too badly. *




Actually, while I quite enjoy the group I game with, I have met many a more capable gamer at cons that I have met at home games (and I have played in a few). Granted, I have met more than a few worthless players at cons, but they do not constitute the majority. In fact I can think of one guy who only plays at organized events (cons and mini cons), who is an excellent gamer. 

buzzard


----------



## qstor (Oct 2, 2002)

I have to say that the three women's pics posted in this thread are amoung the most attractive women gamers I've ever seen. I'm in the RPGA and go to cons and most of the women there are attached. Congradulations guys on winning the ultimate prize an attractive female role playing gamer!

Mike


----------



## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

I know... i'm lucky as hell, lol. She's a babe... 
I can honestly say that it wasn't her looks that got me interested in her since we met through EQ, lol. Unfurtunately for her, lol, I'm not exactly a "handome" guy... pretty average for a gamer I think.

Not that I think looks should stop anyone from getting to know a potential mate... if the person is wonderful, intelligent, and shares a passion for the same hobby... do looks really matter? It's a nice perk... but that's all. (easy for me to say, I know)


----------



## Oogar (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Doubt they could give up their right arms!!  I mean that is what most of them use for.......nevermind.  Anyway, maybe the left arm though. *




By Golly, your right. How would I roll my dice?

I'd invite you to dinner (most of my single female friends have all gone and gotten married), but the 1000 miles or so would be a bit of a challenge. 

On topic - I have noticed more "Gawking" then "Hitting On", of the single women in gaming. Maybe I am simply unaware of what others are seeing. I love playing with them, and have played with a dozen or so, at different times. Never dated any, however. Might be nice to try some day.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 2, 2002)

I hate to be a party pooper, but I have a question for all you guys who have posted your girlfriends' pictures.  Are you sure it's ok with her that you post her picture on the internet?  If you haven't asked permission, I suggest you do so now.  And take the picture down if she says no.

We now return you to your locally scheduled thread.


----------



## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

An excellent question...
And yes, she has given me permission to post her pics (I have before on this board I think...). Not that I do often... I've only posted here and on the eq-server message board we go to.


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

I actually met Kelcey on-line too and share Arravis' view in regards to his SO.
I think she is much cuter than I am. 

She disagrees enthusiasticly though


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

Here is I:


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 2, 2002)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *I hate to be a party pooper, but I have a question for all you guys who have posted your girlfriends' pictures.  Are you sure it's ok with her that you post her picture on the internet?  If you haven't asked permission, I suggest you do so now.  And take the picture down if she says no.
> 
> We now return you to your locally scheduled thread. *





Well I asked her previously if I used her as my icon but I eventually decided against it as I did not want anyone to think I was a hot gamer chick.

So I assume the permission still stands.


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

<p align="center"><img border="0" src="http://hometown.aol.com/azdragongirl/wila/Photos/WilaNewest.jpg" width="216" height="252"></p>


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 2, 2002)

Had to start posting pictures, didn't you?

-Canis casts _Protection from Hot Gamer Chicks_-

There.  My virtue is protected.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl,

Cute pic.  No doubt you leave the gaming table covered in drool from the guy who couldn't keep his geek-tongue in his mouth right next to you.  (Maybe a few visits to the bathroom  to, *clears throat*, keep his calm? 

I would post a pic of my wife (with her permission of course!) but I have not a single pic of her that has been digitized.



She's quite the gamer and beauty too!

Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> *Dragongirl,
> 
> Cute pic.  No doubt you leave the gaming table covered in drool from the guy who couldn't keep his geek-tongue in his mouth right next to you.  (Maybe a few visits to the bathroom  to, *clears throat*, keep his calm? *




Trips to the bathroom???  ah hem.  Dont' make me sick my champion Boothbey on you!!!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 2, 2002)

Well here's yet another story for everyone...

I started going out with a girl after initialling meeting on a website that was not RPG related. We dated for about a year, and she moved in with me. I tried DMing for her a couple of times, but although she likes creating characters and making up backstories, when it comes to actually gaming, she's a little...slow...to actually do anything. I had to keep prompting her for her actions, she seemed to have no real desire for her characters to get on and quest...

So after a while I quit trying to DM because I wasn't enjoying it, and then about a month ago we split up...so I'm a single gaming guy who was going out with a gaming girl who wasn't much of a gamer...or something.

And I concur, nice pics all round. Funny to see what people look like. Here's one of me, just to add to the fun...if someone suddenly realises they know me, do tell...


----------



## boothbey (Oct 2, 2002)

*Ready to serve.*

*Hears the call of his lady*

Armor polished, sword sharpened, white steed saddled, pilot light on wand of fireballs lit, bazooka...bazooked.

Ready to serve, Milady.

*kneels*


----------



## Ulrick (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *<p align="center"><img border="0" src="http://hometown.aol.com/azdragongirl/wila/Photos/WilaNewest.jpg" width="216" height="252"></p> *




You're pretty.  

Ulrick


----------



## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

As you can tell... I wasn't lying. She is the cute one out of the both of us, lol:


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 2, 2002)

Yay for hot chicks!

Yay for gamer chicks!

Yay for chicks! Yay for them I say!



Or, if you're inclined another way, Yay for guys!

And now I must feign disgust at all of you who are hitting on Dragongirl. How dare you, she doesn't need the attention! She is above your fawning, fan-boy adulation! This is a message board not a singles club! Etc! Etc!

(not that I can really blame you though...she's eye candy with aparent personality to boot, it's a hard combo to beat...I mean...er...not that I was doing what I decried you guys for...er...uhm...not that she's not...er...gah! Shutting up now  )

And finally, congrats to all of you with significant others who enjoy something that can eat up four hours of your time per week. It's a rare treasure that I wish I had.

--Kamikaze "I'm single, I'm a gamer, but I'm not pathetic...well, I hope not" Midget


----------



## SemperJase (Oct 2, 2002)

As friend of mine used to say, "They sure do clean up good."


----------



## Arravis (Oct 2, 2002)

I'm looking at my pic... dear lord, I have a huge head, lol.

And that was definately a bad hair day... yow.


----------



## Jarval (Oct 2, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *And that was definately a bad hair day... yow. *




It's better than mine gets at times.  Mine goes somewhere between an Einstein and an afro.  Not a pretty sight


----------



## Neo (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *<p align="center"><img border="0" src="http://hometown.aol.com/azdragongirl/wila/Photos/WilaNewest.jpg" width="216" height="252"></p> *




AIIEEEE CHARUMBA!  More in Arizona than Dust and Heat me thinks.... 

Very Attractive....


----------



## Wolfspirit (Oct 2, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> Heh...a buddy of mine "married" a girl on EQ....turned out "she" was a guy  *




Heh, well, out of the 4 "female" players that I've DMed for online and met through EQ, only one is actually female.  At least 2 are openly gay, dunno about the third one.  Oh, and one of the two married a persumably straight guy in EQ too :b

It was weird finding out that about 3 people that I'd allways thought of as female were actually guys.  I mean, they'd ALLWAYS roleplayed female characters and used female avatars.  Go figure.



			
				Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> Dragongirl's pic*




*jaw drops



> _Kamikaze Midget_
> *
> And now I must feign disgust at all of you who are hitting on Dragongirl*




Ok, I was going to say something else about Dragongirl's pic, but I'll be good


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Oct 2, 2002)

*Ready to defend.*

*Draws his sword and faces boothbey*

"Sir, no offense was meant towards the lady, I assure you.  I stand here ready to defend my right to be subtly perverse and humorous.  As long as I have not offended Sir Eric's grandmother, I will only clarify what I said was in jest."


----------



## Gothmog (Oct 2, 2002)

Its ok Buttercup, I have already talked to my girlfriend about posting her pic on here- she doesn't care.  She knows I brag on her all the time, and she does the same on me with her friends and relatives.   Heck, at least once a week a student comes into my office and gawks at her pic on my desk.


----------



## Mortaneus (Oct 2, 2002)

Dragongirl,
If that picture is accurate, then you are truly blessed.  I doubt that the male contingent of these boards hitting on you will be anything new.  You are quite attractive, and are quite used to such attentions, I'm sure.  I wonder at your single status, though.  It it by choice, circumstance, or timing?


Subject at Hand:
An aquaintance of mine once commented that there are two kinds of women who play RPGs.  Female Gamers, and Gamer Chicks.

Female Gamers are the otherwise normal, and often at least moderately attractive, humans of the female persuasion who enjoy gaming as a pleasant pasttime, and as a social diversion.  Usually accompanied by hordes of drooling males, and often dating a non or pseudo gamer man possessing at least a modicum of artistic talent.  Usual features:  Sarcastic sense of humor, interest in either celtic or 80's music, many icons featuring either unicorns or dragons, and a predilection for the colors black, purple, blue, and/or red.

Gamer Chicks are the female equivalent of the unwashed bull hippo's that grace most gaming tables.  These are the women that often show up at cons to hit on anything that moves, and dress in revealing clothing that their body type REALLY doesn't support.  Usual Features:  Male hanger-on of similar body type, fondness for leather, and a fondness for elven characters.  Often fond (apparently) of the colors brown, yellow, pink, and black (they're gamers after all).

Stereotypical?  Yes.  Don't blame me, I didn't come up with it.  Just reporting what I've heard.  

Hmmm....I wonder if male gamers can be broken down into such categories?  Male Gamers, and Gamer Dudes?


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 2, 2002)

Mortaneus said:
			
		

> *Dragongirl,
> If that picture is accurate, then you are truly blessed.  I doubt that the male contingent of these boards hitting on you will be anything new.  You are quite attractive, and are quite used to such attentions, I'm sure.  I wonder at your single status, though.  It it by choice, circumstance, or timing?*




Let's just say I have had a complicated life and leave it at that.  I am single as in not married, but have a special relationship with Boothbey.



> _*Sarcastic sense of humor, interest in either celtic or 80's music, many icons featuring either unicorns or dragons, and a predilection for the colors black, purple, blue, and/or red.*_




That is tooooo funny.  I am extremely sarcastic, love old 80s pop, and heck chose the name DRAGONgirl!!  Glad I am not a "gamer chick" specially since I can't stand the chick word.  Just ask Meepo.


----------



## boothbey (Oct 3, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Let's just say I have had a complicated life and leave it at that.  I am single as in not married, but have a special relationship with Boothbey.
> 
> *




And that relationship makes me the luckiest man alive.  I by far have the better part of the deal.  

*hugs to Dragongirl*


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 3, 2002)

boothbey said:
			
		

> *And that relationship makes me the luckiest man alive.  I by far have the better part of the deal.  *




Considering the amount of attention she's drawn on this thread, you're probably grinning ear-to-ear right now that you're the one she's with.  That's assuming you're not the jealous type.

If you are the jealous type, I'll remind you that I'm attached, so any oogling I did was done respectfully. 

Dragongirl- A question: What specifically bugs you about the appelation "chick"?  My girlfriend usually doesn't mind it, but there have been a couple of occasions when she bristled like a strung-out cat.  So, in her case, it's entirely context-based.


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *Dragongirl- A question: What specifically bugs you about the appelation "chick"?  My girlfriend usually doesn't mind it, but there have been a couple of occasions when she bristled like a strung-out cat.  So, in her case, it's entirely context-based. *




I just personally find terms like chick and broad to be derogatory.


----------



## ForceUser (Oct 3, 2002)

What about skirt, dame and bird?


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

Ezrael said:
			
		

> * I did get hit on by the staff of a Wizards store once (It was all female, and all entirely too young for me) to the great amusement of my fiancee...and no, she doesn't game. It seems to me that the hobby is stablizing a bit in terms of gender. *




 Jesus man where is that store at?


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> *What about skirt, dame and bird?  *




Don't care for skirt and bird, and since I have not been honored with a British knighthood Dame is just wrong.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 3, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *I just personally find terms like chick and broad to be derogatory. *




Ah, but there's a significant difference between a reasonably intelligent and well-adjusted guy who looks at a picture and says, "Wow, cute chick" and a drooling braincase who looks at that picture and says, "Man, I wanna DO that chick.  Huh huh.  huh huh huh."

The one is synonymous with "young woman."  The other is synonymous with "sex object."

Words without context are just empty noises.

-Canis gets off his soapbox-


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 3, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> * Jesus man where is that store at? *




Well, there's one of them in Ithaca, NY.  One of the stores here is staffed almost exclusively by high school aged girls nowadays.

Quite a bit too young for me, but at least they'e actually helpful.  When it was staffed by guys you couldn't pry them off their games with a crowbar.


----------



## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Oct 3, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Let's just say I have had a complicated life and leave it at that.  I am single as in not married, but have a special relationship with Boothbey.
> ...
> *




Hey Dragongirl: Not that size matters or anything ( motion - ocean ), but how large is Boothbeys... 

d20 collection? 

BTW: I'm working on a 7 foot stack over here...   


PS - Just kidding a bit here ( but not about the size of my fat STACK ). I'm a happily married man whose wife enjoys teasing him about his "geek" hobbies...


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey Dragongirl: Not that size matters or anything ( motion - ocean ), but how large is Boothbeys...
> 
> d20 collection? *




As a general rule, I leave it to the silly boys to compare sizes.


----------



## dave_o (Oct 3, 2002)

*!*

I've noticed a very deep lack of punk rock gamers (and gamettes).

Truly disconcerting!


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

Ok, I have to ask, what is that thing you are sticking up to your punk head?


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 3, 2002)

Looks like the camera.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

Oh hi Dragon Girl, now how did I know you were going to pop in here?


----------



## Griswold (Oct 3, 2002)

Wolfspirit said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *cough* Not that I watch it or anything.
> 
> [/url] *




BAH! LOL

Trading Spaces is my favorite show! heck practically the best 2 hours of TV on..well the TV 

on a different note, never really had any female gamers around. The one gal that did game with us we later found out cared more that her BF was playing and not out mess'in around.


I have noticed there is a female running a game at my FLGS who is very pleasent to talk to ( and oggle at ), so indeed it's nice to see the hobby expanding beyond just men.

G.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 3, 2002)

Dave-o, why are you trying to stick a light bulb up your nose in that picture?


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

Hey Griswold, what part of Ohio do you live in?


----------



## LostSoul (Oct 3, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Dragongirl's picture*




Holy smokes...

I mean that in a totally innocent way, of course.


----------



## maddman75 (Oct 3, 2002)

/me does obligitory stalk and butt-kiss to dragongirl.

Well that's out of the way.  Here's the cutest one of all.  She's not exactly a gamer yet, but she is awfully interested in Daddy's pretty colored dice


----------



## Griswold (Oct 3, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *Hey Griswold, what part of Ohio do you live in? *




Canton.

Seems there's a bunch of us Buckeyes roaming these boards.


G.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

Hey I live in Fremont, isn't that close to Canton?


----------



## Griswold (Oct 3, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *Hey I live in Fremont, isn't that close to Canton? *[/QUOT
> 
> 
> Fremont up by Lake Erie? Canton is about 2 hours SE.
> ...


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

I'm about a half an hour away from Cedar Point.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 3, 2002)

-


----------



## Arravis (Oct 3, 2002)

Speaking of cute gamers...

Here's me in my early LARP days... I'm the one at the bottom, in the red shirt . 1st level Fighter I think...

I stick to pen and paper RPG's now .


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 3, 2002)

Cute kid. I guess the only thing better than having a woman gamer at your side is to have a whole cabal of future dragon-slayers *and* a woman gamer at your side. 

And, yeah, when I use the term "chick," it mostly just means "girl." I don't make a whole lot of distinction between the two, but some girls I know do get weird about it, so out of respect for them, I don't use it.

So in honor of Dragongirl, and in fear of her knighted whatchamacallit, champion or something, I hereby stop using the word "chick" on ENworld.

That's right. In honor of Dragongirl. Honor and fear. I'd hate to ask Meepo to relive anything that traumatizing. 

Anyhoo, I have to go whip up my adventure for my four-single-girls-and-two-single-guys D&D group. That's right. We're all single, and there is no romantic energy expended between any of us, even in character. I'm not sure if we're just wierd, or if we're how a mixed-gender gaming group is supposed to operate under ideal circumstances.

I'm off to find me someone with a "Sarcastic sense of humor, interest in either celtic or 80's music, many icons featuring either unicorns or dragons, and a predilection for the colors black, purple, blue, and/or red"

Which is wierd, since that kinda describes me, just replace "unicorns or dragons" with Anime and Monty Python. ^_^

Dammit, I'm a girl gamer! I hope none of you guys try hitting on me!

*refuses to post his picture, since it's in Airwolf's sig anyway*

Shutting Up Now: Kamikaze Midget


----------



## Arravis (Oct 3, 2002)

This one?

http://www.daily1.com/bik.jpg

ouch!


----------



## Omega Lord (Oct 3, 2002)

Well i can say without reservation that this has been the most visually rewarding thread i have seen in months (with regard to the females of course, sorry guys i just dont swing that way  ) 

Dragongirls pic- *keyboard shorts out due to amont of drool pouring onto it* Yeowza!!

Just for kicks and giggles i think i will post my picture on here (so you cant say you havent been warned). 

As to there being no punk rock gamers. Well im a hard rock gamer, so im not too far away. 

All i have to do to find my ideal mate is find a girl that is into: hard rock, gaming, sci-fi stuff, weird movies, and has an engaging personallity. You have no earthly idea how hard it is to find a girl that likes both my kind of music AND my kind of hobbies. 

*quickly puts the brakes on the self-pity mobile before it can get up steam*

btw does anyone on these boards, single female gamer or no, live in or near wichita. Hell does anyone on these boards live in kansas?


----------



## S'mon (Oct 3, 2002)

*I must speak up for gamer chicks!*

'Female gamers' are all very well but I think the 'gamer chicks' (as described) are fun too - at Gencon UK they certainly added levity and visual interest to the event! 
All those interesting and exotic costumes with the tight tops and push-up bras - ok the wearers were generally somewhat rotund, but it's the UK so there were no booth babes or anything like that to be seen, they didn't have much competition (apart from the female gamers, and being normal/self effacing types they mostly just wore black t-shirts like everyone else).  Without the gamer chicks it could practically have been a trainspotters' or stamp-collectors (or war-gamers) convention, if those groups wore nothing but black!  At least the gamer chicks gave it a sense of occasion! 

PS: Didn't actually play in any games at the Con with gamer chicks, just with regular female gamers, but I bet they'd be fun to play with also!


----------



## BMF (Oct 3, 2002)

> All i have to do to find my ideal mate is find a girl that is into: hard rock, gaming, sci-fi stuff, weird movies, and has an engaging personallity. You have no earthly idea how hard it is to find a girl that likes both my kind of music AND my kind of hobbies.




 You can say that again. 

Dragongirl, you give us all hope.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 3, 2002)

qstor said:
			
		

> *I have to say that the three women's pics posted in this thread are amoung the most attractive women gamers I've ever seen. I'm in the RPGA and go to cons and most of the women there are attached. Congradulations guys on winning the ultimate prize an attractive female role playing gamer!
> 
> Mike *




What about extra XP dammit! 

Thanks though, and I'll be sure to pass on the kind words 

-W.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 3, 2002)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *I hate to be a party pooper, but I have a question for all you guys who have posted your girlfriends' pictures.  Are you sure it's ok with her that you post her picture on the internet?  If you haven't asked permission, I suggest you do so now.  And take the picture down if she says no.
> 
> We now return you to your locally scheduled thread. *




It's better than the modelling portfolio ones of her nude somewhere on the internet, so I'm pretty sure it is ok with her 

-W.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 3, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That is tooooo funny.  I am extremely sarcastic, love old 80s pop, and heck chose the name DRAGONgirl!!  Glad I am not a "gamer chick" specially since I can't stand the chick word.  Just ask Meepo. *




The 80s Rocked! ... 'nuff said. (nice pic though BTW)

-W.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 3, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *Dammit, I'm a girl gamer! I hope none of you guys try hitting on me!
> 
> *refuses to post his picture, since it's in Airwolf's sig anyway*
> 
> Shutting Up Now: Kamikaze Midget *




Jacob, you can be the Booth Babe from now on for all 2E1Y events 

-W.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 3, 2002)

Today you are a posting machine, Will


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 3, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *Today you are a posting machine, Will  *




I'm hungover and incapable of much else right now 

-W.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 3, 2002)

LcKedovan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm hungover and incapable of much else right now
> 
> -W. *




I'm sorry to hear that... 

How many liters of beer yesterday, Will?


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 3, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *...there is no romantic energy expended between any of us, even in character. I'm not sure if we're just wierd, or if we're how a mixed-gender gaming group is supposed to operate under ideal circumstances.*




I think it's the latter.  I mean, why does everything involving mixed genders have to be sexually charged?  It's tiresome.


----------



## ladyofdragons (Oct 3, 2002)

Wish I'd found this thread earlier, though it seems to have degraded into a bunch of gawking guys.  Though I'm no longer single I do remember what being a single gamer girl was like.

Me personally, I'm a gamer girl.  My hubby considers himself one of the luckiest guys on earth for finding a girl who games of her own accord, not just someone who is dragged to the table by her boyfriend (I met him at the gaming table, his first D&D game since coming back home from the Marines).  I'm sure there are plenty of geeky gamer girls out there just waiting to be made, who'd love the game of their own accord if someone just showed them how it was played (in a method that a girl would like, because let's face it, most women have different styles of play than men)

and here's my favorite picture of myself, even though it's 5 years old.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 3, 2002)

ladyofdragons said:
			
		

> *and here's my favorite picture of myself, even though it's 5 years old... *




See, that's what I'd call a 'gamer chick' pic - and you still look very nice IMO!


----------



## Frostmarrow (Oct 3, 2002)

- and here's my favorite picture of myself, even though it's 5 years old... 

- See, that's what I'd call a 'gamer chick' pic - and you still look very nice IMO!

Hm. What's wrong with the above conversation?


----------



## S'mon (Oct 3, 2002)

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> *- and here's my favorite picture of myself, even though it's 5 years old...
> 
> - See, that's what I'd call a 'gamer chick' pic - and you still look very nice IMO!
> 
> Hm. What's wrong with the above conversation? *




I was commenting on the opinion of a prior poster that 'regular female gamer'=good, 'gamer chick'=bad.  Likewise it was opined that 'regular male gamers' were preferable to 'gamer dudes'.

Well, me and my players are in the 'regular male gamer' bracket, but at Gencon UK I met a fair number of 'gamer dudes' (no one from EN World!), particularly in the 1am-6am All Flesh Must Be Eaten game I was foolish enough to sign up for.  Well, they looked a bit odd and perhaps some of them didn't wash very often (which is not a problem with gamer chicks BTW, I think that's a male-only thing) but they were all very nice people and not nearly as scary as they looked.  The one playing a PC with an Irish accent even apologised to Upper_Krust and me in case we took offense (he was English, we're from N Ireland)!


----------



## ladyofdragons (Oct 3, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> See, that's what I'd call a 'gamer chick' pic - and you still look very nice IMO!  *




umm...does that mean you think I'm large and scary and shouldn't be wearing that outfit?


----------



## Arravis (Oct 3, 2002)

Not from what I can see... 
"bossomy" though , especially in that dress... but certainly appreciated by all the guys .

p.s.: I'd say you look very nice... but my girlfriend sometimes reads these boards, lol.


----------



## Wolfspider (Oct 3, 2002)

Single white male, 30, seeks heterosexual or bisexual female gamer, writer, reader, lover, adventurer, traveler, creative partner, foil, and soulmate.  Can offer a life full of mood swings, oppressive student loan payments, sarcasm, dark laughter, melodrama, and second-rate poetry.  If interested, contact Randell Wolff at wolffspider1@yahoo.com .

I'm looking for a happy ending.


----------



## Redleg06 (Oct 3, 2002)

This girl plays D&D. I won't post her name or web site, because I don't want to advertise for her, but I'll just say you don't rent her videos at the FRONT of the store! (Nor will you find them at Blockbuster!)

She really does play (D&D)  though!


----------



## S'mon (Oct 3, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *Not from what I can see...
> "bossomy" though , especially in that dress... but certainly appreciated by all the guys .
> 
> p.s.: I'd say you look very nice... but my girlfriend sometimes reads these boards, lol. *




Yes, that's what I meant also - and only a little bit scary! 
And I'd say your dress was great and entirely appropriate for a Con, LARP etc, and would add greatly to the atmosphere of the occasion, as I said earlier.  You don't look particularly large, as far as I can tell - almost none of the women at GenCon UK did either though, and only a small minority of the men, even us gamers are  generally a lot smaller over here in the UK.  Maybe in the US there are some obese 'gamer chicks' but I've never seen or met any.


----------



## ladyofdragons (Oct 3, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, that's what I meant also - and only a little bit scary!
> And I'd say your dress was great and entirely appropriate for a Con, LARP etc, and would add greatly to the atmosphere of the occasion, as I said earlier. *




that's actually me in my wench garb, I'm a renfaire participant & madrigal singer.  Perhaps I should have just used this picture instead (though personally I think it looks a tad goofy).


----------



## S'mon (Oct 3, 2002)

ladyofdragons said:
			
		

> *
> 
> that's actually me in my wench garb, I'm a renfaire participant & madrigal singer.  Perhaps I should have just used this picture instead (though personally I think it looks a tad goofy). *




Very cute (and 100% not scary!).


----------



## Rel (Oct 3, 2002)

Allow me to say that both Dragongirl and ladyofdragons (? must be something in the dragon blood) are both attractive enough that I would date you even if you weren't gamers (this is hypothetical since I think my wife and your significant others would object).  

But I wouldn't date you if you wouldn't let ME game.

Which is to remind all of you who aren't maried to/dating a girl who games that things could be worse.

EDIT:  When I re-read what I wrote above, it sounded a bit off.  I do think that Dragongirl and ladyofdragons are both very beautiful, but pulchritude is not the primary attribute upon which attractiveness is based (IMHO).  A smart person will find a mate who is kind and considerate of them, faithful and loving, and shares the same goals and interests.

If she's got that going for her, you will never look at her and find her less than gorgeous.


----------



## dave_o (Oct 3, 2002)

*Lightbulb?!*

Yeah, that's the flash from my camera (albiet diffused with tissue) in a mirror. 

Or it could be my latent sorcerous talents?

No, no, it's a flash.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Oct 3, 2002)

Nevermind.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 3, 2002)

hehehe....I think I would not be the boothbabe for 2e&1y...though I think I am the only one of our cabal not attatched. 

I'd like to think that gaming together without much sexual tension is the norm. Certainly fits us pretty well -- none of our interests are gamers, for the most part, anyway.

*Sigh* Now I'm going to go curl up into a ball of me and have self-pitty for a while. L8r, hucksters.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Oct 3, 2002)

I'm trying to get my current gf Elizabeth to game with me and my friends, she's a bit taken aback that I spend as much time as I do on this game(and still have time to work 40+ hours and spend equal time with her; gotta love my "1337 Chronomancy skillz" as my boy Billy said it), she's intelligent, hot, and reads EAP(getting her into fantasy and Lovecraft), watches horror movies(getting her into anime, any suggestions for one's to get her to watch?), and was definitely worth the 1/2 a year I spent chasing her(she had a boyfriend that cheesed me off, she and I have been friends since we were little; when we started spending time together again, he cheesed her off by having mood swings, and so she broke w/ him and started dating me).  I'm having a hard time getting her to hang out with my friends though(she thinks their gonna start drooling and hitting on her; won't listen when I explain that they're my players, I'm the DM, they won't drool on the DMs girlfriend and risk a tactical nuclear assault by the orcs that suddenly developed nuclear technology(and one's gay, to boot, so no worries from him)).

Any suggestions for getting her to game?  As I said, she's into fantasy and horror, really smart too, just a bit weirded by my friends(who really are a group of decent guys, they wouldn't start making lewd comments or nothing, that's always been more my department; if it was a disturbing pick-up line, I probably used it in high school).


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 3, 2002)

Have her invite some of her friends to game with.

Anyone she might think would be interested in playing? It'll probably be less intimidating if she has some "back up" besides her current squeeze.


----------



## Mr Fidgit (Oct 3, 2002)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *getting her into anime, any suggestions for one's to get her to watch? *




Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust.      nuff said!


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 4, 2002)

Anime.......poor Boothbey tries to get me to watch anime and I just plain don't like it.

LadyofDragons....very nice pictures, you look like a very sweet lady.  I have never gone to any faires but if I did, think I would prefer something more like what Tina Turner wore in Mad Max III.


----------



## DrydenT (Oct 4, 2002)

Wow, i really found this thread way too late.  Good thread though, heck of a read.

My testimony is sadly on the deficient side.  I've only table-top gamed with 5 different females.  The first was a casual gamer until she married a heavy gamer, and she didn't want to lose him for those 6-12 hours every Saturday.  She dragged in a friend of hers who was there mostly for support and didn't really like the game or gaming.  The third was my current sweetie who joined in mostly to spend more time with me, and found that she really really liked the whole cooperative storytelling side of things.  She's now one of the best DMs i've ever played with.  The last two were just some friends who i dragged into a short-lived Changeling game after trying an even shorter-lived D&D game.  They really enjoyed Changeling, but the game sadly didn't continue.
I've LARPed with an unknown number of females, once, and will again in a week or so.  Everything there seemed exceedingly natural on all accounts, and there was no akwardness or bashfulness or flirting as everybody was pretty much in character or at least paying attention to the game the entire night.  40 person LARPing rocks!

But what's the point?  Well, i've met few SFG, but from those i have met and who seem to have really loved the storytelling and interactive imagination sides of things.  I'm not trying to encourage stereotypes here, it's just what i've seen.  Imagination games like Changeling have completely won over SFNon-Gamers who had tried dice-based games like D&D.  May just be a trend among my friends though.  Oh, and i have a great quote from my sweetie while i was trying to get her to try DC Heroclix with me.  "What's the big deal?  It's just a big game of math."



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *Getting her into anime, any suggestions for one's to get her to watch?
> Any suggestions for getting her to game?  *




Anime - Second vote for Vampire Hunter D, and a general vote for Vision of Escaflowne (the series, not the movie).  It's one of the best anime series i've ever seen that was almost equally liked by male and female.

Gaming - If she's never gamed before, start with something as simple as a board game and encourage everybody to just really get into the game for silliness's sake.  IE: Play Zombies and yell at the little plastic guys as they Just Won't DIE!!!!  Or something with a bit more of a storytelling bent, like Nanofictionary.  If you want to jump straight into D&D, make up a character with a full on character sheet, glossing over things like BAB, Saves and AC.  Play through a complete evening of role-playing not once picking up dice.  Plan a story where you won't need them.  If you want skill checks to take place, assume taking 10 in all cases.  Role-playing.  It's good stuff.  If she digs that, then move on to the standard stuff.

Dry


----------



## boothbey (Oct 4, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Anime.......poor Boothbey tries to get me to watch anime and I just plain don't like it.
> 
> *




Anime...If I could get Dragongirl into Anime that would just make her too damn perfect...


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 4, 2002)

boothbey said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Anime...If I could get Dragongirl into Anime that would just make her too damn perfect... *




::teeters on her pedestal::


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 4, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *::teeters on her pedestal:: *




On boothbey's maybe, but not everyone here is into anime.

I think our resident draconic ladies are secure on their pedestals.


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 4, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that...
> 
> How many liters of beer yesterday, Will?  *




Well, only 3 litres, but it was the guy who smuggled in the home made schnapps that did me in... that and going to my favourite bar afterwards till 5am :O.


----------



## SupaFreak (Oct 4, 2002)

I've had three females in my gaming groups. one was always attatched to one particular guy (getting married soon), one was attatched to someone outside the game, then me, then someone else again..(sigh...), another who got attatched to a guy in a gaming group, and a third who was attatched when she played, broke up with the guy, and is now with another non gamer.  They've all been good role players, and are good in character.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 4, 2002)

Only 3 liters of beer?!

What about those three liters of Schnaaps!

--Probably dying when this gets legal for him: Kamikaze Midget

P.S.: Pushes Dragongirl off her pedastal

Guys, she's just a woman. She's like you, but pretty. Get over it.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 4, 2002)

> _
> 
> P.S.: Pushes Dragongirl off her pedastal
> 
> Guys, she's just a woman. She's like you, but pretty. Get over it.  [/B]_



_

 Looks like you are the one who "needs" to get over it. And leave Dragongirl alone!_


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 4, 2002)

*points at Theudric, impish grin spreading onto his mug*

Hey, dragonfemaleperson, this yours?

*tossles his hair*

Cute. 

*runs away screaming*


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 4, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *...She's like you, but pretty...*




Hey.  For some of us, that's a substantial difference.  Maybe when I get to my scanner, I'll demonstrate.

Nobody's randomly posted a picture in a while, anyway...


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 4, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> **points at Theudric, impish grin spreading onto his mug*
> 
> Hey, dragonfemaleperson, this yours?
> 
> ...




 OK call me stupid ( I know I'm not the brightest person in the world) but I really didn't get that one.


----------



## Seri (Oct 4, 2002)

Hi lo

I'm a bit late finding this thread, thanks to Harlock for pointing it out to me 

I am a girl gamer, have been playing for over 8 years.  I started playing because I was the girl in the mostly guy group and if I wanted to do anything on the weekend, it was join the game or do nothing, I joined the game.

well little did they know, after about 4 games, I was the one complaining that we weren't gaming enough.

I moved to another city and the first thing I did was find a gaming group here. none of my friends here gamed, I had to make all new ones.......so I game for the game.

I am currently going out with a gamer guy, someone I met online actually and in #dnd3e...and even today I can't get enough gaming.....plus I'm dragging everyone to a convention this weekend, had to convince the bf and the DM, but it will be much fun


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 4, 2002)

It's okay, Theudric, it's all in a day's work for Confuse-A-Knight. 

Don't mind me, just your local neighborhood raving lunatic...

Doot-dee-dooo......

BLABBUBLAOWBLEEBLINGBLONG!

Wow, I really have to stop letting my thoughts pour out of my fingers like little rivers of creativity!

BAD FINGERS!

Bye-bye!

--Taking His Pills: Kamikaze Midget


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 4, 2002)

hmmmmmm.........


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 4, 2002)

Canis reads Kamikaze's posts.

Canis rubs his sore eyes.

Canis reads Kamikaze's posts again.

Canis checks to make sure the world is still solid around him.

Canis reads Kamikaze's posts a third time.

Canis' head explodes...


----------



## Piratecat (Oct 4, 2002)

There are three female players in my main campaign, and another two who did play but have moved to the west coast. In my secondary campaign, there are five women. In Sagiro's game, there are three women.  And I know another half-dozen or so women players in our area.

No shortage here.  

KidCthulhu, my wife, is a fantastic player (better than I am, that's for sure.)  It's fun to share the hobby.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 4, 2002)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *There are three female players in my main campaign, and another two who did play but have moved to the west coast. In my secondary campaign, there are five women. In Sagiro's game, there are three women.  And I know another half-dozen or so women players in our area.
> 
> No shortage here.
> 
> KidCthulhu, my wife, is a fantastic player (better than I am, that's for sure.)  It's fun to share the hobby. *




You're a bad teasing kitty...


----------



## LcKedovan (Oct 4, 2002)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *
> 
> --Taking His Pills: Kamikaze Midget *




I was more worried you had taken your OTHER pills KM, .

-W.


----------



## Horacio (Oct 4, 2002)

LcKedovan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I was more worried you had taken your OTHER pills KM, .
> 
> -W. *




What OTHER pills, Will?


----------



## Garmorn (Oct 4, 2002)

I have game with lots of women.  The largest was a group of four collage girls, and my wife.  I currently have four women in my group.  They are my wife, a friend who is in the process of getting a divorce, her daughter (who is only 14) and my daughter.  We will be loosing my daughter this summer when she leaves for collage up in Chicago, so it time to start recuriting again. 

My wife and I both did not play RPGs when we first met but got into them while in 81.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 4, 2002)

I am the hottest gamer chick ever in the right makeup and clothes:







But seriously, folks, two things.  First, the last woman I gamed with was my best friend's ex.  She was part of why he and I didn't talk for a year (well, an argument she and I got into).  Afterwards, I told her friend who games with me regularly, "God damn she's hot.  It's too bad she's a psycho."

And now for my hypocracy:  I hate to be the knee jerk liberal, but I gots ta be that kinda ******.  Why is it that a discussion of female gamers has to be so appearance-driven?

It's like you can't talk about actresses--or even writers and directors--without its being about looks.

There, I feel a little better.  The bit where I labeled myself a hypocrite ties it up all very nicely.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 4, 2002)

Rob:  You look a lot like my uncle. Do you have relatives in Germany?


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 4, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *Rob:  You look a lot like my uncle. Do you have relatives in Germany? *



None that I'm aware of.  I've got English, Irish, French, Italian and Native American in me (Iriquois), but no German.


----------



## Arravis (Oct 4, 2002)

It's not a "male" issue in my opinion. In my observations, in the day to day, it's women who are much more concerned about their appearance then men are about women's appearance. Women seem to put a tremendous amount of pressure on each other on their looks. I think it's a falacy to think it's a male issue (if that was what you were hinting at).

I almost never hear guys complain to their SO's, women around them, or each other about their looks... but I do hear women criticizing each other's (and their own's) looks fairly often.

Perhaps it's just me...


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 4, 2002)

Well the resemblance is startling. I geuss you are my uncle's double LOL!


----------



## Omega Lord (Oct 4, 2002)

Dont say I didnt warn you

Dear lord. Its easy to forget how long im letting my goatee get.

Edit: ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH dear lord too big must shrink down to size.


----------



## Arravis (Oct 4, 2002)

Dear lord... that's a wee bit large...
I could only see your face in quadrants, lol.


----------



## Omega Lord (Oct 4, 2002)

Lets try that again:


----------



## Omega Lord (Oct 4, 2002)

Nope still not right. Last time I promise. If this one looks funky im just going to leave it.

Note to self: learn how to post pictures before making an ass of yourself publicly.

*crosses fingers*


----------



## MerakSpielman (Oct 4, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *I am the hottest gamer chick ever in the right makeup and clothes:
> 
> --image snipped for space--
> 
> ...




As a fellow knee jerk liberal, I have to agree with you here. Neither my wife nor myself will be winning any beauty pagents this lifetime, but I have to say that if I could trade her in for a woman who was exactly the same mentally but had a supermodel body, I wouldn't. It just isn't relivent to me. 

--Merak desperately tries and largely succeeds in avoiding a rant about the shallowness of Americo/Western society in general--

I also resent the notion that a guy (gamer or not) who is romantically involved with a pretty woman is somehow "luckier" than other guys. Maybe they just like being together. In my experience, by the time a relationship becomes serious, external looks are by and large not an important part of the relationship.

Do you think Boothbey would break up with DragonGirl if she lost her looks overnight? Of course not. But most of the folks coming out of the woodwork admiring her would most likely drift off into silence. I have the unique (I think) perspective of not having had her picture download (I get a broken link icon), so all I have seen is all of your responses. Frankly, though I detect a fair amount of playfulness, I still think the respones were rather immature.

And on the topic of calling girls "chicks," being a man I am not qualified to give an opinion that is worth anything, but my wife would object to it. She would also, I am certain, object to the calling of any adult female a "girl" instead of a "woman." (Sorry DragonGirl, you two seem to be of a different opinion!)

--BACK ON TOPIC--

My group consists of 3 married couples, a single _woman_, and one of the couples 13 year old son (he's in 1 of our 3 campaigns, sort of an "intro to D&D" for him from all of us). One of our other campaigns has been strong on the sexual innuendo. My character had a tryst with the character (an evil prostitute rogue, who is currently trying to kill my character for unrelated reasons while pretending to like him) run by the DMs wife, and my wife's character (male) is enamored of the character (female) of our single woman (whose character is so dense she doesn't notice).

I have seen no problem with the spouse-player or spouse-DM aspect (perks to the spouse, etc...).  As a matter of fact, my wife's wizard was killed the other night and I, the DM, did nothing to alter the rolls in her favor.

Our single woman is a thirtyish mathematician, and is quite brilliant (you should see her calculating the monsters to hit bonuses without seeing my die rolls). She is deliberately playing a low-INT low-WIS _cleric_ just for the role-playing challange. If any of you are interested, I should tell you she isn't. She seems very happy single.

She's the only single gamer I've met in person, but my in-person gaming experience is somewhat limited.


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## maddman75 (Oct 4, 2002)

Couple of things - on Anime, another recommendation for Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust.  I'm not a big anime fan either, but got convinced to watch that one by some friends.  If you are a horror fan, it'll have you from the opening scene.  The movie is beautiful as well, I almost felt like I was watching a moving Rembrandt.  The anime stylizations that most non fans tend to find annoying are kept to a minumum as well.

On attractiveness - I find it odd that people feel the need to express that they don't want attractive people.  Of course you want to be with attractive people!  Of course what is 'attractive' is mostly subjective.  For me it is about looks, at least partially, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  It is natural to be attracted to attractive people!

If that makes me shallow, then I guess I'm shallow.  But I'm honest


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## RobNJ (Oct 4, 2002)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *On attractiveness - I find it odd that people feel the need to express that they don't want attractive people.*



Well, duh.  of course I want to be with someone I find attractive.

I was just talking about a discussion about girl gamers wound up being a discussion about _hot_ girl gamers.  I don't suspect you'd get the same reaction if you asked, I don't know, are there any male knitters out there? on a knitting site (to pick something horribly stereotypical).


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## Arravis (Oct 4, 2002)

MerakSpielman, insinctively, looks DO matter. Politically correct or not... rational or not... it's in our genes. There is a wealth of research information that shows, from birth, appearance does have an effect on the viewer's initial emotional reaction. What we find beautiful, as a species, tends to be symmetry. The reason why  is because it shows health, and a healthy mate is what we instinctively look for.

I wouldn't call the standard male reaction to a beautiful female, immature. Flirting is what comes naturally to men who come across (in one form or other) to an attractive female. I don't see a reason to find that reaction as "immature", just not something you would do. 

Anyway... thankfully, our rational minds can, more or less, overcome our instinctual reactions .


P.S.: RobNJ, I suspect that nearly any conversation about about females, by males, will end up discussing the attractiveness of them, lol.


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## Buttercup (Oct 4, 2002)

I wanted to comment on the subject of discussions about women gamers turning into discussions of hot women gamers.

That's why I said upthread that having a constantly sexually charged atmosphere at the gaming table is tiresome.  It's actually tiresome anywhere.  If an attractive woman wants to have a serious, intellectual discussion, it isn't always easy to do that with men.  Now, this is more true with teens and twentysomethings than for somewhat older guys, so perhaps we can chalk it up to testosterone poisoning.

I'm not saying that I'm offended by flirting.  Far from it.  But I'd like you guys to try to imagine what it's like to want to have an intellectual discussion with someone who can't stop staring at your chest.  It's annoying as all get out, I'll tell you.

I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of anything.  I just wanted to give you something to think about, so the next time that hot gamer girl wants to have a conversation with you, you might keep your tongue in your mouth, your hands to yourself, and your eyes on her face.  Take her seriously for her brain, and you are more likely to get...well, you know.  I spent the first 30 years of my life wanting to be taken seriously.  As soon as I met a man who did, I married him.  

A final thought.  I love the internet! It's the only place where you stand or fall on your ideas rather than your looks.


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## Arravis (Oct 4, 2002)

Buttercup, on this one, we agree 100% .
I fell head over heels with my girlfriend without really knowing exactly what she looked liked, based on her personality alone . And thankfully for me as well... since I'm not exactly Mr. Hansome, lol.

I can imagine the difficulty women have on this issue... if I have a good idea and I want to get it out, I don't want some other issue to come between it. Must be damn frustrating.

As a side note:

I heard an interesting interview on NPR about two months ago with a woman that had a change sex. She talked about her life before and after the sex change... the thing that took her most by surprise was her emotional and mental reaction to the testosterone shots.

She said before the shots she had always been a very sensative person and she thought of herself as having a healthy sexual appetite. Once she started taking her shots.. she was completely taken aback by the sheer amount of self control she had to exert just to behave in a barely acceptable fashion (and she didn't always succeed) due to the massive amount of sexual aggression she had. She described all the classic stuff...  staring constantly at T&A and more, lol. She said she even had strong impulses to buy sports cars, something that had never interested her before. Btw... if anyone knows about this interview or where i can dig it up... please let me know.

Anyway, I think that women tend to understimate what men go through on this. So girls... most guys, in my experience, honestly try really, really, really hard not to stare at your body parts or do any number of other things that our bodies are screaming at us to do. So when you do have a conversation with a guy and he is looking at your eyes and not at something else... appreciate the iron tower of will that stands before you .

P.S.: I'm not trying to excuse any behavior that men partake in... just trying to expose it so a bit more understanding might be possible .


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 4, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *...NPR Sex change thing...*




Personally, I think much of that effect was psychosomatic.

There are very good physiologic reasons why men (as a general rule) are more aggressive and more sexually oriented.  But extrapolation from there to sports cars and what not...

Secondary societal effect.


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## Arravis (Oct 4, 2002)

I'm sure a good deal of it was... but it's not my point. The point I was trying to make is that too often society portrays men as dim-witted and with no self control... and I don't think that fits the truth. The sexual impulses of men and women are different... the self control required to control that impulse in men is different then it is in women.


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## incognito (Oct 4, 2002)

*...about to alienate 97% of the female readers*

Ok,

I lurked and I lurked...and  having read 6 pages, I guess I have to add to this thread.

Seems like females at the gaming table ends up being an all or nothing type thing.  You find a woman who has amiable female friends who game and everyone is adult with it, and it makes for enjoyable gaming.  It seems this way with PirateCat's group - and when I met him, I commented on this very fact.

My exposure to female gamers (and females at faires), has not been the greatest.  The female gamers were manipulative, boyfriend chasers, ruining a few good games.  The girls in the faire should have been trotting on the treadmill, rather than exposing yards of pale, oversized, cleavage.

Sigh:: that was pretty harsh - more trash talking to come, I'm afraid:

Ok, so although I am an avid gamer, I am also a very fitness oriented (amusingly, I would only meet PC for coffee after obsessively going to the gym!).  Rather than being a socially challenged, I somewhat shamefully admit to being more of the 'player' type or whatever people are calling it these days.

Never at the gaming table though - because the girls I went after - well - I never let on that I gamed.  It was not a part of my 'rap' so to speak (Hey, baby, have you seen my d20?) The girlfriends I have had, eventually found out about my little hobby, but it never seemed appropriate to try and get them caught up in the gaming circle.  Too much of a disconnect.

Perhaps I simply came of age during some very negative propaganda regarding gaming (late 80's), but I think by far and large gaming is looked down on by the 'cool' click.  Since I want to be able to run with that group periodically, I keep my gaming to myself.  I'm not in the closet exactly, but I'm not totally out of it either.

Now - I find it highly entertaining that some of the very attractive women who have been brave enough to post their pictures here, are annoyed by the way men react to them (in a physical fashion).  This has little to do with gaming, and much to do with how men are wired. 

I cannot imagine a gaming table that has mixed gender yet is devoid of a *little* sexual tension - in fact, that seems not quite healthy to me.  Even in the workplace there is sexual tension.  Our VP of sales just got canned for his immature reaction to some of it.

Pretty women, no matter their hobby, will always be in demand - we men should be thankful that ladies look _more_ to personality than us men do.

Hmmm - ok, end of rant.  I'll close by saying if I ever did bump into a cool, attractive (yes, this is important), down to earth girl who could game, and still Salsa dance with me - well, I'd have to count myself very lucky indeed.


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## SemperJase (Oct 4, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *Buttercup, on this one, we agree 100% .
> I fell head over heels with my girlfriend without really knowing exactly what she looked liked, based on her personality alone . And thankfully for me as well... since I'm not exactly Mr. Hansome, lol.
> *




I find this conversation interesting. As the token moral absolutist on the board  you may think I would agree 100%. 

Acutally, I think physical attraction is very important to a relationship. Now that does not rule out respecting the other person's dignity. By that I agree with Buttercup that you must get to know the whole person. But the decision to start that process on both sides generally begins with that first flicker of physical attaction. 

I think it is interesting what happens from the point where you start to find out more about that person. Once you begin to know a person, your perception of their attractiveness changes with your feelings about them. Even the prom queen looks looses her attraciveness to guys she treats with contempt. While someone you may have thought was "alright" looking gets prettier when you realize her generous nature. In other words, what you find on the inside comes through to the outside in your eyes.

Thoughts?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 4, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *I'm sure a good deal of it was... but it's not my point. The point I was trying to make is that too often society portrays men as dim-witted and with no self control... and I don't think that fits the truth. The sexual impulses of men and women are different... the self control required to control that impulse in men is different then it is in women. *




No offense, but this sounds suspiciously like the excuse a lot of men use for nothing more than poor impulse control.

Sort of a combination of "Women don't think about sex as much because they don't like it as much" and "Boys will be boys."

That's a load.  Aside from the lack of physiologic support for it, the fact is that not all guys have trouble controlling their impulses.

I, for example, happen to be a guy, yet I have better impulse control when it comes to keeping my eyes off a woman's breasts than I do when it comes to stopping myself from buying a new book.  This doesn't mean I suffer less from testosterone effects than other men.  It means I don't buy the B.S. from our over-sexed culture that says guys are allowed to run around with their tongues hanging out whenever an attractive woman walks into the room.

Our culture still punishes women a lot more than men for having poor control in this area.  It WAS getting better, but now that the culture of victimhood is in full swing, irresponsible guys are finding new and better ways to excuse their lack of control.

It does not take an "iron tower of will" to keep your eyes of a woman's chest.  And guys who have that much trouble DO have poor self-control.


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## kenjib (Oct 5, 2002)

I think people should live honestly and openly.  For me, beauty comes with the grace of being comfortable with who you are how you look, no matter whether it fits certain stereotypes or not.  Preoccupation with trying to be something you are not is just another form of ugliness to me, no matter the end result.  The longer I know someone, the more (or less) beautiful they become to me.

It's great that all kinds of women can feel confident about how they look and enjoy themselves.  Men have a much wider variety of preference than some people think.  For me, being thin just is not an important aspect of beauty at all, for example.  I think all types of bodies can be beautiful.  Many men like many different things.

That goes for women too, all of you self-deprecating men.  Stop insulting yourselves!  What's up with that?

I think it's pretty sad that anyone would discourage someone from having a healthy self image and feeling good about themself.  As Ms. Yvonne (from Pee Wee's Playhouse) says, "You're only as beautiful as you feel, and I feel WONDERFUL!"  If you have this attitude, people will pick up on it and respond.  You will be beautiful.

Okay, to get back more on topic, I haven't seen many women playing the game, myself.  I wonder if it has to do with recruitment method at all.  Are women gamers more likely to find games in certain ways?  Through anonymous message board/in store recruitment posts?  Through friends?  Through gamer networking?  Does this change depending on whether the game groups are in college or working age?


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## DrydenT (Oct 5, 2002)

*RE: The NPR Thing*

I listen to This American Life every week and heard the mentioned story about the testosterone based sex-change.  It's a heck of a listen that i recommend to anybody if they have the time and a good enough connection.

The page where a story summary is listed along with the link to the Real Audio version of the story (sorry, only format they've got).
http://www.thislife.org/pages/archive02.html#220

If you want to dive right into listening, use this link.
http://www.thislife.org/ra/220.ram

The story in question is Act II, or about 15-16 minutes into the show.  If you've got time, just listen right from the beginning.  It's good stuff and surprisingly relevent given the turn this conversation has taken.

[Relurking]

Dry


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## Humanophile (Oct 5, 2002)

Hah.  Incognito, you sound like a friend of mine, and his attitude confuses me.  While I do remember him losing one girlfriend after bringing her to a D&D game, I think that was more due to trying to swamp her with rules and the actions of a certain other player than it was the fact that he gamed.  I know of a few other girlfriends of his who found out, and didn't seem to give him trouble about it.  So if the girl has a redeeming personality and isn't just there for a few dates and such, there's nothing to lose by letting her know that you game.  Heck, I'm open about my gaming habit, and it's never caused me problems.  (Well, it did once, but that was because I invited her to a vampire LARP I was playing in, she got really into it and ended up doing some between game with a clanmate, and by next week they were an item.  But I digress...)

Everyone else:  The reason most discussions of this sort tend to revolve around looks is because little else is as immediate.  Humans in general are wired to reproduce, we're social animals, and between the desire to propogate and the desire to spend time with others, there will be some form of tension between compatible people.  Personalities take time to fully understand, and in many cases a person isn't thinking long term.  Even if they are, something has to pull them in initially in order to understand the personality.  I don't actually *know* any of the girls posting here, so while I can't say anything about their personalities, I can say all I need to about appearances in a few seconds time.  So I can either say "wow, she's cute", or "well, I hope she has a nice personality".  And to be blunt, nobody has the time to spend checking everyone they see on the hopes of finding a good personality.

And as personal comment, I have odd luck.  Despite being exclusively attracted to geeky girls, I haven't dated gamer girls ever since I learned better.  That said, I have an almost unerring eye for gals who are gamer naturals.  I just either end up screwing things up with them in other ways before I can get them around a table, or else they're too far away.  Still, you'd be surprised the number of good-looking females I've known who've told me that they've always wanted to game, they just hadn't found a group.  So gamer girls shouldn't be that hard to find; just make your own.  And as time goes by, enough of them will end up as single gamer girls.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *That goes for women too, all of you self-deprecating men.  Stop insulting yourselves!  What's up with that?*




Just 'cause we're self-deprecating doesn't mean we have low self-esteem.  Quite the contrary in my case.  

My face may be made for wear, rather than show, but woe betide the person who makes a judgement based on that.

Besides, my face must be doing its job since I managed the initial attraction that SemperJase was talking about to nab my girlfriend.  A brilliant, fun, beautiful woman, with whom I share a love of reading, fantasy, and computer games, along with, not incidentally, my heart and soul.

So, while I may be self-deprecating regarding my looks, I'm actually pretty comfortable with them, and I have no _actual_ complaints.


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## blackshirt5 (Oct 5, 2002)

Thanx for everybody's suggestions, I've decided to cash in on the fact that Elizabeth loves horror and suspense(she's a huge fan of Poe) and introduce her to gaming through Call of Cthulhu D20.

Also, to add in my .02 cents here, I have to concur with an earlier poster that women don't give themselves enough credit when it comes to their bodies.  I used to go out with a girl who always said that she thought I could do so much better than her because she was a little chubby(I'm no prize myself, I just carry myself very well).  Eventually, my having to constantly reassure her was one of the things that led to our breakup, because I eventually got tired of having to tell her constantly(not that I mind giving out compliments, but come on!) that I thought she was beautiful.  Thankfully, I found Elizabeth again, and now I'm happily dating a girl with whom the only argument we have is about Ralph Fiennes(he creeps me out now that I've seen Red Dragon); and more importantly, a girl who's comfortable in her own body!

The moral of this rambling post: Complain about yourself too much, and eventually, other people start believing your own hype!


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## Qlippoth (Oct 5, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *I, for example, happen to be a guy, yet I have better impulse control when it comes to keeping my eyes off a woman's breasts than I do when it comes to stopping myself from buying a new book.  This doesn't mean I suffer less from testosterone effects than other men.  It means I don't buy the B.S. from our over-sexed culture that says guys are allowed to run around with their tongues hanging out whenever an attractive woman walks into the room.*



Amen!


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## Telgian (Oct 5, 2002)

[Aside]
I can't recall where I read this offhand, so it is possible that some error has crept in, but...

It's intresting to note that at one point in the middle ages women were viewed as morally weaker than men. Why, because they were the ones with aggression and no control. Middle aged women were viewed as being the most threatening -- almost predatoral when it came to young men. 

[/Aside]

Telgian.
SFG.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *And on the topic of calling girls "chicks," being a man I am not qualified to give an opinion that is worth anything, but my wife would object to it. She would also, I am certain, object to the calling of any adult female a "girl" instead of a "woman." (Sorry DragonGirl, you two seem to be of a different opinion!)*



*

No offense taken.  I was DradonLady before, but then that sounded like an S&M Mistress, and while I like to tie guys up, I am not into all that, so changed to DragonGirl*


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

Telgian said:
			
		

> *[Aside]
> I can't recall where I read this offhand, so it is possible that some error has crept in, but...
> 
> It's intresting to note that at one point in the middle ages women were viewed as morally weaker than men. Why, because they were the ones with aggression and no control. Middle aged women were viewed as being the most threatening -- almost predatoral when it came to young men.
> ...




Very true.  It was the same in traditional Japanese society.  Women weren't even permitted in any but the lowest of the heavens.  I don't know about other Eastern societies, but...

Ever since Eve, Western society has been almost abusive in their insistence that men are the virtuous ones.  I'm not sure when we reversed that, but it's a recent innovation, that has NO previous cultural OR biological basis.

Actually, it might have been the troubadours and courtly love that pulled the switch.  That's approximately when it became fashionable for women to hide their emotions from their suitors.  AND it's when men became encouraged to go wax rhapsodic about how much they "needed" their intended (both in the emotional and carnal senses.  If you don't believe me, read some poetry from the era.  It's hot stuff.)


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

OK.  You guys who were giving people grief over flirting with Dragongirl, look at this.



			
				Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *No offense taken.  I was DradonLady before, but then that sounded like an S&M Mistress, and while I like to tie guys up, I am not into all that, so changed to DragonGirl *




Veiled innuendo that is guaranteed to engender intrigue.  But it would be socially inappropriate to to push for clarification (especially if Boothbey is still hanging around with that sword - Canis looks around with trepidation)

How does one NOT flirt a little? 

And, YES, I'm aware that I was the guy going on and on about self-control.  Chalk it up to irony.


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## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: ...about to alienate 97% of the female readers*



			
				incognito said:
			
		

> *The girls in the faire should have been trotting on the treadmill, rather than exposing yards of pale, oversized, cleavage.*




No different than many of the men, I would guess, yet it is socially more acceptable to denigrate women if you don't approve of their body type.  And you know, maybe they were happy being Rubenesque, and maybe their men liked them that way.  



> [/b]Ok, so although I am an avid gamer, I am also a very fitness oriented (amusingly, I would only meet PC for coffee after obsessively going to the gym!).  Rather than being a socially challenged, I somewhat shamefully admit to being more of the 'player' type or whatever people are calling it these days.[/b]




Are you saying that other people have to meet your physical standards to be treated with respect?  And by 'player' do you mean philanderer?  User?  Or schmoozer?  I honestly don't know how you mean it.



> *Perhaps I simply came of age during some very negative propaganda regarding gaming (late 80's), but I think by far and large gaming is looked down on by the 'cool' click. *




That's interesting.  I've always thought of myself as 'cool', and I game.  But this issue of worrying about what others think of D&D has come up on these boards a great deal lately, and it seems I'm in the minority since I don't really care if certain segments of society don't approve of me.  




> *I find it highly entertaining that some of the very attractive women who have been brave enough to post their pictures here, are annoyed by the way men react to them (in a physical fashion).  This has little to do with gaming, and much to do with how men are wired. *




I haven't noticed any of the women who posted their pictures being annoyed about the reactions those pics elicited.  I was the one who said it annoys me when I try to have a conversation with someone who stares at my chest.  I haven't posted my picture.  In fact, in the picture thread, (it's archived) where I _did_ post my picture, I took care to use one that didn't show my face.  Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I harbor no illusions that this community is a private room.



> *I cannot imagine a gaming table that has mixed gender yet is devoid of a *little* sexual tension - in fact, that seems not quite healthy to me.  Even in the workplace there is sexual tension.  Our VP of sales just got canned for his immature reaction to some of it.*




I guess it's a good thing we don't game together then.  And it's even better that we don't work together. I work with men and women, sitting on committees together, working on joint projects, supervising and being supervised.  In the past 10 years, I only recall one instance of a guy who tried to sexualize everything.  I thought he was an annoying jerk, actually.  The rest of the guys I work with just get down to business, as do I.

The thing that I think isn't healthy is the notion that men and women cannot be friends or coworkers without sex entering into the picture.


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## William Ronald (Oct 5, 2002)

Having lurked on this thread and seeing it run from the silly to the serious, I thought I would make a few comments.

Currently, there is a single female gamer in my group. My best friend's sister whom I have known for 20 years.  She is a friend who is a good role player, good at problem solving, and in getting people to form a concensus.  

I have not had any gamer girl friends, but there have been several memorable female players I have known.  One was a very good role player who would shoot down some of the flirting guys were doing with female NPCs.  (For the record,  Judith was one of the few 50 something gamers I have played with.  The players were in their 20s.  Let's say I enjoyed how she reigned in some of the PCs by pulling rank on the NPCs... and reminding the players that we were on a mission, not taking a romantic pleasure cruise.)  

I have known many good female gamers, as well as a few who were just there because their boyfriends were around.   I think the most important issue is to treat a female gamer with the respect and courtesy you would wish for yourself.

I have noticed a few guys at conventions who seem to have little idea of how to act around women.  However, I have noticed more women gamers at cons and more men acting properly towards them.  A man can look at a beautiful woman and still be a gentleman after all.  I have chatted with women who were in the costume contest at Gen Con and not drooled.  (In fact, I directed one this past Gen Con to the Milwaukee Journal to get a copy of an article she had been interviewed for during the previous week.)

Dragongirl, nice picture.  Ladyofdragons, nice picture and a good out fit. 

So, I have a few questions for the women on the boards.  What are some of the ways that men can make role playing more accessible and enjoyable to women?  Also, how has gaming and the gaming environment changed for women since you started playing RPGs?


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *So, I have a few questions for the women on the boards.  What are some of the ways that men can make role playing more accessible and enjoyable to women?  *




You know what?  I think that RPGs are already quite enjoyable to women.  Those of us who are immature shouldn't try and bring women into the game; I just don't think it would work.  But those who are mature enough to handle someone of the opposite sex at the table (I notice that most gamer guys don't complain about being hit on, or having unwanted sexual attention at the table; probably a social thing) should encourage friends to join the game.  Of whatever sex.

I wonder if a "Singles Game" could ever take off?


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## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *So, I have a few questions for the women on the boards.  What are some of the ways that men can make role playing more accessible and enjoyable to women?  Also, how has gaming and the gaming environment changed for women since you started playing RPGs? *




1) Have roleplaying opportunities at least 25% of the time as opposed to 100% hack and slash.
2) Have things make sense.  Don't put a dragon on the third underground level where the only access is 10x10 corridors, etc.
3) Don't move all over the place in the storyline.  Storyline is important and should move smoothly from adventure to adventure.
4) DON'T HAVE WOMEN IN CHAINMAIL BIKINIS!!!
5) Don't show all NPC women as brainless bedtoys.  Yes to get that historical feel most women will have more of a subservient postion concerning men, but even some commoner women can be strong minded and at least mistress of the home life.

As for what has changed.....biggest change appears to be the use of she/her instead of he/him in some products.  I know this is to try to be more politically correct, but in my opinion is just annoying.  Male pronouns have always been the norm for uknown persons and making every other one female just seems trite.  I am all for female examples of PCs, NPCs etc, but don't stick em in just to be PC.

Just stuff from the top of my head.


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## boothbey (Oct 5, 2002)

Only one that gets me in trouble is #3.    

My party has learned to fear female npcs.  They are too afraid to use them as bedtoys.  

"She's a vampire or a demon, I just know it."

One character married a seemingly brainless female npc who was secretly plotting to off the player, his brother, father, and take over the family estate.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

boothbey said:
			
		

> *Only one that gets me in trouble is #3.
> 
> My party has learned to fear female npcs.  They are too afraid to use them as bedtoys.
> 
> ...




Should I be afraid that you make all your plot females domineering and evil?  Wonder what Freud would think of this.....  Guesss now I know why you like me.


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

Canis wrote:
***No offense, but this sounds suspiciously like the excuse a lot of men use for nothing more than poor impulse control.***

Not at all... I don't see how anything I said shows that. We, as human beings, do have control over our actions and are 100% accountable for them. What I am saying is that men's issues aren't as simple to deal with as some women might imagine.

***Sort of a combination of "Women don't think about sex as much because they don't like it as much" and "Boys will be boys." That's a load. Aside from the lack of physiologic support for it, the fact is that not all guys have trouble controlling their impulses. I, for example, happen to be a guy, yet I have better impulse control when it comes to keeping my eyes off a woman's breasts than I do when it comes to stopping myself from buying a new book. This doesn't mean I suffer less from testosterone effects than other men. It means I don't buy the B.S. from our over-sexed culture that says guys are allowed to run around with their tongues hanging out whenever an attractive woman walks into the room.***

Please try not to put words into my mouth, you are making a huge range of statements that I never made or even hinted at. If you wish to argue the statements you made, seek someone who supports them, I do not.

Please re-read my posts and my first response here. Additionally there is a good deal of scientific data that does support that men and women do respond to sexuallity in wholy different ways. Men are fully and completely capable of controlling their actions and sexuallity... all I am saying is that those feelings have a different impact on men then it does on women.

***Our culture still punishes women a lot more than men for having poor control in this area. It WAS getting better, but now that the culture of victimhood is in full swing, irresponsible guys are finding new and better ways to excuse their lack of control.***

Exactly whom is doing the punishing? I don't claim to be a victim or to be down-trodden or any such thing. I'm only trying to promote understanding, of at least my experiences as a male. What I find irresponsible is not trying to learn and understand those around you for the sake of political correctness. Knowledge and truth know no political correctness... they stand on their own. I don't claim to know what the truth of the situation is, but I seek it, fair or unfair as it may be.

***It does not take an "iron tower of will" to keep your eyes of a woman's chest.***

That statement was meant as a joke... I was using an exageration to get the idea across that men and women have different reactions to similar stimulus.

If this responsive was a bit agro... my apologies. Perhaps my testosterone levels are a bit up... (<-humor)


P.S.: I recommend you take a look at DrydenT posts and perhaps give that a listen... it's interesting, regardless if you agree or disagree.


----------



## boothbey (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Should I be afraid that you make all your plot females domineering and evil?  Wonder what Freud would think of this.....  Guesss now I know why you like me.   *





This is one of those questions that either way I answer, I'm in trouble isn't it?


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *I was using an exageration to get the idea across that men and women have different reactions to similar stimulus.*




I think that is true, although much less than we are taught to believe.  Society has a large part to play in this.  For good or for ill.


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

Oddly enough... some of the most sensible and strong characters in my games are women. Now that I think of it... I think I tend to "stereotype" the male characters alot more then the female ones.

Another thing...
I normally DM a forgotten realms campaign, and it's filled with a happy managerie of women, from strong to weak, from dim to completely brilliant... but in my Call of Cthulhu game (a setting I've not DM'd before) I seem to be having a harder time with it...

I hadn't even noticed it until you brought it up here, but as of now, I don't have any major female npc's, even though the party is comprised of 50% women. I see women as being much too sensible to be an insane cultist or being involved in many of the shinnigans that my CoC players get in, lol. I'll need to work on that...


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## William Ronald (Oct 5, 2002)

LostSoul, 

I have been gaming since 1980, so I have seen women enjoy gaming.  I think maturity in a gaming group will put any newcomer at ease. 

Dragongirl,

Personally, I always thought chainmail bikinis were silly and ineffective as armor.  I enjoy role playing and consistent story lines as well.

As for the role of women NPCs, I think that depends on the culture portrayed.  For example, the Celtic warrior queen Boudicca (Boadicea to the Romans) was a very effective leader.  Generally, I like NPCs to have some degree of intelligence.

I do find the use of the female pronoun a little strange, as I have a Bachelor's in English.  However, I suppose I can live with it, even if it seems to be a bit PC. (Pity English never developed a gender neutral pronoun.)


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

boothbey said:
			
		

> *This is one of those questions that either way I answer, I'm in trouble isn't it? *




Oh, yeah...

My girlfriend uses a variation.

Not answering can be bad too, though....

I still have the marks


----------



## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Should I be afraid that you make all your plot females domineering and evil?  Wonder what Freud would think of this.....  Guesss now I know why you like me.   *




I think that a lot of us (males) do this without thinking about it.  Although I almost never have female villians, female NPCs in my game are either based on me (if they are going to be romantic interests - I wonder what Freud would say about that?  ), or they are nice girls or pure jezebels.  I think that it is difficult for any person not to put their own subconsious thoughts onto an NPC/PC of the different sex; but, by analyzing what one does with those NPCs, you can understand more about yourself.


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *I hadn't even noticed it until you brought it up here, but as of now, I don't have any major female npc's, even though the party is comprised of 50% women. I see women as being much to sensible to be an insane cultist or being involved in many of the shinnigans that my CoC players get in, lol. I'll need to work on that... *




I can't say as I am familiar with that setting, but women can be as insane as men.  Maybe you should make some NPC women that influence things more from behind the scenes than up front.

_*generalization*_ Women tend to think more about what they are doing, and can be good at getting others to do their bidding without the person(s) realizing it. _*/generalization*_


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *LostSoul,
> 
> I have been gaming since 1980, so I have seen women enjoy gaming.  I think maturity in a gaming group will put any newcomer at ease.  *




I think that's the most important thing to introduce anybody into the gaming culture.  Whether they be a jock, a club kid, an adult dancer, whatever.  If you treat them with respect and understand where they are coming from, nobody will feel out of place.

I think that roleplaying is a fundamental human desire.  We like to fantasize about what we *could* be.  It isn't just a male desire.  I think that the reason more women don't roleplay is because they don't think it is feminine to imagine themselves fighting against fictional orcs.  Which I think it totally societal.  I had some great times playing with my girlfriends and sisters.  (Most of my PC deaths came at the hands of my sister - I wonder what Freud would say about that?  )


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *P.S.: I recommend you take a look at DrydenT posts and perhaps give that a listen... it's interesting, regardless if you agree or disagree. *




Sorry if I jumped on that a bit hard.

If it's any kind of explanation, my youngest sister just had her heart broken by a philandering type, and my protective big brother gene kicked in big time.

I acknowledge that males and females have different responses to sexuality, but your earlier post made it sound like you were advocating a hormonal explanation for a range of antisocial behaviors like obsessively staring at a woman's breasts.

Again, I may have jumped the gun a bit.

As for the NPR thing, I listened to large parts of it.  As a biologist, most of it is unsupportable.  As a guy with a reasonably well-tuned B.S. detector (a great asset as an academic) we were listening to a bunch of people with sociopolitical agendas.


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## Griswold (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> _*generalization*_ Women tend to think more about what they are doing, and can be good at getting others to do their bidding without the person(s) realizing it. _*/generalization*_ [/B]




Women manipulative? nah.

G.


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> * As a biologist, most of it is unsupportable.  *




Hey Canis, as an aside:

I was told by a doctor once that men & women do have different sex drives.  Men generally have a stronger one.  I'm curious to hear what you think.

(I don't necessarily believe what this doctor said.)


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

Hmm...

I think the fact that it's a modern day setting means that it hits closer to home for me then a fantasy setting and I'll tend to take fewer risks with such things. Sadly (which goes to show how much I’m influenced by society), part of it is the lack of diversity in women’s roles as hero’s or villains in our media. It tends to fall into just a handful of roles… sex-kitten, GI Jane, or dominatrix. There should be a lot more then that… I’ll try to correct that when I DM .


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *. Sadly (which goes to show how much I’m influenced by society), part of it is the lack of diversity in women’s roles as hero’s or villains in our media. It tends to fall into just a handful of roles… sex-kitten, GI Jane, or dominatrix. *




I always end up with teases.  And if the girl goes to bed with the PCs, unless I have something in mind, she's just a girl longing for some kind of intimacy.


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

Canis... my apologies as well, I know I came across harshly in my reply to you. And additionally, I probably didn't phrase things in the clearest way in my original posts.

Sorry to hear about your sister btw . There are too many a-hole guys out there and I understand your response.


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

In my FR campaign I had a amazing female character that I never got to use... ugh.

She was a Thayan wizard, artist, politician and brilliant tactitian that would turn any disadvantage into an advantage... she excelled in abstract thinking and was amazingly creative. I was setting her up as a political nemesis, not one you would fight openly...

Unfortunately the players had the Thayan compound demolished and my RP-opponent went by the wayside, lol. I'll have to think of a new devious way to involve her now .


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey Canis, as an aside:
> 
> ...




Yeah.  They're certainly different.  Guys have slightly higher sex drives on average.  And they peak at a young age (traditionally 18, though I wouldn't be surprised if that was sneaking higher.  As far as I know, no one's looked at it in a while.)

However, many women have been known to have MONSTROUS sex drives in their 30s.  Again, traditionally peaking at around 35, but in this case, I imagine the age would be coming down instead of going up.  Female puberty is getting earlier, at least partially for nutritional reasons, and also because of all the estrogen analogues we're pumping into the environment (DDE, for instance).  Puberty is getting earlier, and, unlike the male reproductive system, the female one has a definite timetable.  Therefore, sexual peak and senescence should also be getting earlier.

There's a lot of anecdotal "data" out there about a certain birth control implant (I can't remember which one) which drives female sex drives through the roof.  A friend's girlfriend went on the thing (partly as his urging since he had heard about the "side-effect"), and she actually wore him out.   I know I was being a jerk, but I LMAO when he told me.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

Boy the ups and downs of this thread (no pun intended).  We start off talking about female gamers in general, then get into posting pics and talking about girlfriends, then all the pick up posts, to serious discussion about making the game better for females and the use of female NPCs and now........female birthcontrol that increases sex drive......amazing thread.


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## LostSoul (Oct 5, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *  And they peak at a young age (traditionally 18, though I wouldn't be surprised if that was sneaking higher.  As far as I know, no one's looked at it in a while.)*




You know what I've heard?  The amount of testosterone in the male of the species at 18 is the same at an advanced age (60 or so).  This makes me wonder about hormones and/or the effect of maturity.


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## Inez Hull (Oct 5, 2002)

I've only gamed with one female, a friends wife, and even then only for a few sessions. I must say though she ways EXTREMELY bloodthirsty, moreso than the rest of the group, in fact moreso than I would expect from a spotty teenage munchkin. 

A question then to the ladies on the 'boards - how much of your own personality goes into your characters and their motivations? Also, do you exclusively play female characters?


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## Inez Hull (Oct 5, 2002)

ROTFLMAO

I don't know if its just me but after posting I read the previous posts about sex drive and a pop up advert for Viagra..... well popped up.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

Inez Hull said:
			
		

> *ROTFLMAO
> 
> I don't know if its just me but after posting I read the previous posts about sex drive and a pop up advert for Viagra..... well popped up. *




Very odd, ENWorld has no pop-up ads, at least I have never gotten one.


----------



## Dragongirl (Oct 5, 2002)

Inez Hull said:
			
		

> *A question then to the ladies on the 'boards - how much of your own personality goes into your characters and their motivations? *




Depends on the character, probably most of the ones I have played end up getting a lot of my own personality, though generally a more playful version.  But there are times when I try to get into a different mindset and play a dour dwarf or something that is not me.



			
				Inez Hull said:
			
		

> *Also, do you exclusively play female characters? *




The only time I have played a male characters was in an online game, and that was just taking over a higher level character in order to help the guild I was in.  And I didn't care for it at all.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *You know what I've heard?  The amount of testosterone in the male of the species at 18 is the same at an advanced age (60 or so).  This makes me wonder about hormones and/or the effect of maturity. *




YOU ARE CORRECT, SIR!

Well, 90% correct.  Not all the Leydig cells (testosterone producers) live that long, so there's a slow decline after a while.

Significantly after 18, though.


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Should I be afraid that you make all your plot females domineering and evil?  Wonder what Freud would think of this*




I tend to make almost all important female NPCs (and probably 3/4 of all NPCs of any note are female) powerful wizards with paladin-esque morals. I'm sure this says something about me.


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## boothbey (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> The only time I have played a male characters was in an online game, and that was just taking over a higher level character in order to help the guild I was in.  And I didn't care for it at all. *




Neither did I.  Was weird flirting with her that way.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 5, 2002)

Am I the only one who sees my women NPC's as fundamentally no different from my male NPC's?

Perhaps more importantly, am I the only one who runs women NPC's with no concept of how they view sex...or, at least, any more concept of that than I have in male NPC's.

I mean, come on, I really don't care to think about what the barkeep does on her off time, nor do I largely ponder the fleshy delights of leather and/or lace, unless the PC's are doing some slum-scouring and hanging with the ladies of the night.

And, besides, this is fantasy. Any veneer of historical accuracy aside, am I the only guy who has hostelries where the guy partners are at least as common as the female ones?

I don't really think I am, but it comes accross that everybody is playing fairly blatant stereotypes. To me, an NPC woman is just as much a collection of stats and skills for dealing with the world as an NPC dude.

And don't get me started on the various humanoids, and how the gender stereotypes can be stretched to basically man = dwarf, woman = elf.

But, then, I tend to amaturely overanalyze things. 

Now, about those pills...


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## Arravis (Oct 5, 2002)

Kamikaze:

Well... it depends. I don't normally think about what kind of sex life my female NPC's have... but gender does play a role in behavior, a subtle one though. My main issue is with "on the fly" NPCs... when I have to create one in a hurry. I tend to use combinations of character's I've read about in books, those in movies and TV. I might make a female barkeep and think to myself "ok... imagine the part Carla from Cheers and part Ladyhawke." Yes... it's a cheap way to come up with a quick NPC personality... but when I'm in a hurry, it'll do, hehe.

Anyway, my earlier point dealt with the issue that's it's a bit harder for me to do that with modern day female NPC... honestly, I'm not sure why. Might be as simple as that I'm subconsciously trying to come up with a less "Cartoony" NPC or something else... I'm not sure.


----------



## hong (Oct 5, 2002)

Since everyone's posting pictures:


Hong "am I sexy baby? Do I make you horny?" Ooi


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## hong (Oct 5, 2002)

Oh, oops, this is a thread about FEMALE gamers. My bad!


Hong "get a load of those pixels" Ooi


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## Dalamar (Oct 5, 2002)

The whole thread's been an interesting thread and I thought I'd share my thoughts in here, just for fun. 

First, I've only been playing since 3E and only with a single group, which only includes me, my cousin, his sister and their neighbour. That makes 1/3 of the people I've gamed with female .
That aside, I probably wouldn't flirt with her even if she wasn't my cousin as I'm too shy. 
Just nearing 18, I haven't really had the trouble of my eyes 'drifting' (again, that would be embarrassing) when talking with a girl. I've actually been complimented by a girl that she like talking with me.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *4) DON'T HAVE WOMEN IN CHAINMAIL BIKINIS!!!
> 5) Don't show all NPC women as brainless bedtoys.  Yes to get that historical feel most women will have more of a subservient postion concerning men, but even some commoner women can be strong minded and at least mistress of the home life.
> 
> As for what has changed.....biggest change appears to be the use of she/her instead of he/him in some products.  I know this is to try to be more politically correct, but in my opinion is just annoying.  Male pronouns have always been the norm for uknown persons and making every other one female just seems trite.  I am all for female examples of PCs, NPCs etc, but don't stick em in just to be PC.*




4) Amen, sister!
5) Yes to this one too.  Although in medieval England, women were allowed to own property, join guilds, and take apprentices.  Some of them became rich in their own right, and no one was concerned about it.  So if one is going for historical accuracy, having female shopkeepers, guildmasters and whatnot is perfectly reasonable.

Re the male pronoun always having been the norm for a person of unknown gender, did you know that Shakespeare used "they" instead of "he" in those circumstances?  As in, "If a person is sickly, they can't help it."  If it was good enough for the bard, it's good enough for me.


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## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *So, I have a few questions for the women on the boards.  What are some of the ways that men can make role playing more accessible and enjoyable to women?  Also, how has gaming and the gaming environment changed for women since you started playing RPGs? *




This has been asked before, and I'm never really sure how to answer it.  One problem is that lots of women who might be interested haven't ever been given the opportunity.

Another problem is that young teens still think of the opposite sex as icky in many cases.  If a group of 12 year old girls sees a group of 12 year old boys playing D&D, those girls are going to roll their eyes and go practice putting on makeup instead.  It would be useful if we could find a way to market the game to 12 year old girls too.  Don't know what that would be.  But I wasn't a typical 12 year old.  I liked rockets, and Star Trek, and books about history as well as ballet and teen pop stars.

In general I think we need to find the women who have the standard set of interests you find in most RPers, such as SF & Fantasy fiction, history, mythology, that certain set of movies we all love, and so forth.  Then we need to invite them to play.  Teach them the game without overwhelming them with rules, and without hitting on them, and I think the work is done.  

I also think that we women who already play should make it a point to bring new women into the hobby. This goes for men who can behave too.  I know that I would have been playing 20 years ago if I had been invited to play by anyone who wasn't a smelly, scary freak.  Sadly, only the scary types invited me, so I never did.  How many other potential women gamers are also hiding out there?  Lots, I'll bet.


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## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

Inez Hull said:
			
		

> *A question then to the ladies on the 'boards - how much of your own personality goes into your characters and their motivations? Also, do you exclusively play female characters? *




I think the first part of your question isn't related to gender, but to how good a RPer the person is.  Those of us who aren't so good will probably play ourselves over and over.  Those of us who are very good will probably play characters whose personalities diverge quite a bit from our own.

So far, I've only played female characters.  I don't have any urge to play a male, but who knows what the future may bring.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

Inez Hull said:
			
		

> *ROTFLMAO
> 
> I don't know if its just me but after posting I read the previous posts about sex drive and a pop up advert for Viagra..... well popped up. *




Inez, ENWorld doesn't use pop ups.  If you are getting them while surfing here, you've got some spyware on your computer.  Better look into that.  I'm just guessing that you downloaded and installed kazaa?


----------



## hong (Oct 5, 2002)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I think the first part of your question isn't related to gender, but to how good a RPer the person is.  Those of us who aren't so good will probably play ourselves over and over.  Those of us who are very good will probably play characters whose personalities diverge quite a bit from our own.
> *




I don't think it's so much a case of being "good" at RPing, as what floats your boat. Some people like creating lovingly detailed characters with fleshed-out histories and backstories (a "method actor" to use Robin Laws' terminology). Then you get people who basically want to get into fights (a "buttkicker"), or just want to collect shiny objects ("powergamers").

In all cases, though, gender doesn't have anything to do with it. It's possible to be a method actor and play only male or female characters, because you don't think you can "accurately portray" a male or female (whatever that means). Conversely, it's possible to be a buttkicker or powergamer and cross the fence now and then. It's not like most games these days put sex-based constraints on what characters you can play; and a sword is a sword regardless of what the character wielding it is.



> *So far, I've only played female characters.  I don't have any urge to play a male, but who knows what the future may bring. *




Character's I've played since 3E came out:
- male half-orc barbarian
- male human tank fighter
- male human martial artist (sword guy)
- female bamboo spirit folk martial artist/blade dancer
- male human archer

I like to get into fights.


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## S'mon (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: ...about to alienate 97% of the female readers*



			
				Buttercup said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I guess it's a good thing we don't game together then.  And it's even better that we don't work together. I work with men and women, sitting on committees together, working on joint projects, supervising and being supervised.  In the past 10 years, I only recall one instance of a guy who tried to sexualize everything.  I thought he was an annoying jerk, actually.  The rest of the guys I work with just get down to business, as do I.
> 
> The thing that I think isn't healthy is the notion that men and women cannot be friends or coworkers without sex entering into the picture. *




Yeah, I agree.  Personally I've never noticed any sexual tension in ANY mixed-gender D&D game I've played in, and I've played a few.  By and large D&D doesn't IMO engender that kind of thing unless you actively go looking for it.  Vampire LARPs, maybe.  Not D&D.

On the topic of staring - if a woman is wearing a low-cut outfit it's hard for most straight men not to stare!  It doesn't matter whether it's your wife, girlfriend, or a stranger.  Since the purpose of such outfits is to draw attention to that area, I can't see that it's something to condemn men for, either.  While it may be possible to hold an intellectual conversation with someone showing a lot of cleavage, it's harder than if they're demurely clad.  That seems like simple fact to me.  It's not a question of good or bad, at most it's a question of appropriateness - eg I wouldn't want my wife to wear an outfit showing lots of cleavage to the office, and I don't want men staring at her at the office, either, whatever she's wearing.  At a party or social gathering it's different.   Luckily she strongly agrees with me.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 5, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *I do find the use of the female pronoun a little strange, as I have a Bachelor's in English.  However, I suppose I can live with it, even if it seems to be a bit PC. (Pity English never developed a gender neutral pronoun.) *





It did 'they' as third-person singular gender-neutral.  However this was replaced by 'he' in common use.  I still use 'they', though.


----------



## Theuderic (Oct 5, 2002)

I use "he" it requires less work on my pronouns and people understand what I mean.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 5, 2002)

Kamikaze:

Are the pills that you're taking, Red, or Blue?


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: ...about to alienate 97% of the female readers*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *On the topic of staring - if a woman is wearing a low-cut outfit it's hard for most straight men not to stare!  It doesn't matter whether it's your wife, girlfriend, or a stranger.  Since the purpose of such outfits is to draw attention to that area, I can't see that it's something to condemn men for, either.   *




I agree completely.  I should have made clear, I suppose, that I was talking about having my chest stared at *even though* I wasn't wearing anything provocative.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 5, 2002)

One's red, one's blue.

One's my hormone pill to keep up the cleavage seen in Airwolf's sigs.

The other one's Viagra.

That probably explains a lot.

Oh, and there is no spoon.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 5, 2002)

and what will really bake your noodle later is...

...would you made that comment if I hadn't posted anything?


----------



## I'm A Banana (Oct 5, 2002)

*blink*

You make me think too much. Back to oggling women....


.....mmmm.....Horacio....you clean up reeeel purdy.....


----------



## maddman75 (Oct 5, 2002)

boothbey said:
			
		

> *Only one that gets me in trouble is #3.
> 
> My party has learned to fear female npcs.  They are too afraid to use them as bedtoys.
> 
> ...




LOL - I have a player that can't help himself.  He absolutely cannot help going off with the sultry NPC.  No matter how often its a vampire, succubus, werewolf, or simple murdress.  I eventually stopped doing it, because it was just too easy.

[troll]And yes, all my female NPCs are evil and twisted, because I try to make my games realistic[/troll]


----------



## maddman75 (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I can't say as I am familiar with that setting, but women can be as insane as men.  Maybe you should make some NPC women that influence things more from behind the scenes than up front.
> 
> generalization Women tend to think more about what they are doing, and can be good at getting others to do their bidding without the person(s) realizing it. /generalization *




Agree DG.  Most guys I know are pretty clueless.  They don't seem to realize that women around them know *exactly* what effect they can have, and they do stuff on purpose.  Its all a dance, just have to learn the steps.
</generalization>


----------



## maddman75 (Oct 5, 2002)

One more comment - I don't believe that women have a weaker sex drive.  Its just different, and molded by our culture.  There is a social stigma, that if a girl has lots of partners, she's trash, a slut, or whatever other slanderous word you want to apply.  But a guy who does the same is a hero.  BS.

Free love for all.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *One more comment - I don't believe that women have a weaker sex drive.  Its just different, and molded by our culture.  There is a social stigma, that if a girl has lots of partners, she's trash, a slut, or whatever other slanderous word you want to apply.  But a guy who does the same is a hero.  BS.*




I'll buy that.  There's really no way to control for the difference between biological and social effects in an adult.  (Well, technically there IS, but it breaks a few rules.  Like... Don't raise people in sensory deprivation chambers for their entire lives.)

The NSF is REALLY a stickler for that one.


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## Theuderic (Oct 5, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Boy the ups and downs of this thread (no pun intended *




 Which parts are the ups and which parts are the downs?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 5, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> * Which parts are the ups and which parts are the downs? *



I think it's safe to label that as subjective.


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## incognito (Oct 7, 2002)

*the 3%  !*

Re: ...about to alienate 97% of the female readers 

Sorry for the Late reply Humanophile and Buttercup, I only log in during the week (from work). 

Humanophile: You didn't specify what confuses you.  I can comment that I have not lost a g/f to the gaming table.  This is proabbly becsue, as I mentioned, I have not brought a g/f to the gaming table.  Although... it has caused friction in relationships (sorry honey, I have to go kill pretend ogre's tonight - I might get a magic sword! - I can't have dinner with your folks).

Buttercup - Lots of text here - I'll try and cut to the chase

quote:
The girls in the faire should have been trotting on the treadmill, rather than exposing yards of pale, oversized, cleavage.

Buttercup's reply:
"No different than many of the men, I would guess, yet it is socially more acceptable to denigrate women if you don't approve of their body type..."

Incognito (me):  Well Buttercup, I no more approve of the men of gaming with thier large, unshaven jowls, traipsing around in green spandex leotards, than I do the women.  Being signifcantly obese is a health risk, not to put too fine a point on it.   I posted this comment about women becasue that's what this thread is about - I do not want you to think me a hypocrite, however.

quote:
"...I somewhat shamefully admit to being more of the 'player' type or whatever people are calling it these days..."

Buttercup's reply:
Are you saying that other people have to meet your physical standards to be treated with respect? And by 'player' do you mean philanderer? User? Or schmoozer? I honestly don't know how you mean it.

Incognito (me):  I am saying if there is any aspect of life in which you show a lack of respect for yourself (phycically, intellectually, emotionally), then I will have a hard time respecting you, yes.  By way of example, there used to be a gentleman in our gaming group who had a drug addiction that caused some psycological problems (agorophobia, some paranioa).  I (we) eventually had to move away from him.  Not without some gentle prodding, however.

I have been a philanderer, and a schmoozer. I think 'user' is a tough sell; I try to treat anyone I interact with decently (golden rule, don't you know).  What I mean was, I am accustomed to going out in a social setting and meeting women.  Whether it be a setting like a bar, or a setting like the supermarket.  THis is not a skill I see in - ohhh - 95% of the gaming community.  Hence the cartoons to this effect.

By the way, lest anyone be confused by the word 'philanderer'  He is the Websters Def.: 1. to make love to someone with no intention of proposing marriage 2. to have many love affairs

quote:
"Perhaps I simply came of age during some very negative propaganda regarding gaming (late 80's)..."

Buttercup's reply:
"That's interesting. I've always thought of myself as 'cool', and I game. But this issue of worrying about what others think of D&D has come up on these boards a great deal lately, and it seems I'm in the minority since I don't really care if certain segments of society don't approve of me. "

Incognito (me):  Not caring what society thinks of you, is...almost...the definition of uncool.  Having 'society' approve and want to be like you would be cool.  Not too many guys coming up to me and saying "Hey!  You should've seen the way I took down that dragon last Friday!  Power Attack and Brilliant energy weapons rock!"  But I do have poeple talk about the Football game, the Soprano's, how many pints they had on Friday.  And Hey don't shoot the messenger, I'm just saying that from a societal point of view, roleplaying = not cool.


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## incognito (Oct 7, 2002)

*the 3%  (part 2)*

Buttercup's reply:
I haven't noticed any of the women who posted their pictures being annoyed about the reactions those pics elicited. I was the one who said it annoys me when I try to have a conversation with someone who stares at my chest. 

Incognito (me):  Buttercup, It's entirely possible that I would glance at your chest if it was attractive, and you were wearing a tight shirt, or displaying cleavage.  I am not giong to ONLY look at your chest, but you can bet that it will happen.  When the reverse of this happens to me, I am flattered.  My comment was pointed at beautiful women in general, and their affect on men (or vice versa - although it is clearly more pronounced in men - even from a physiology standpoint, if we take it to that extreme).  I can understand becoming tired at constantly being viewed as a desireable object, but this is one of the truisms of the human condition.  It would be like me being angry becasue I am short(ish), or have wavy hair. It is incumbent upon a person to be more than meets the eye, and I find that generally speaking, if I converse with someone longer than 10 seocnds, I can begin to get past what my eyes see (but it is STILL there).

quote:
"I cannot imagine a gaming table that has mixed gender yet is devoid of a *little* sexual tension..."

Buttercup's reply:
"I guess it's a good thing we don't game together then. And it's even better that we don't work together..... "

Incognito (me):  I think you are naive in the extreme if you don't think that coupleings weren't happening on those committe's - now, just becasue you did not take part...

At my work, we have no less than three office romances that have not only resulted in marriage, but also children.  There's the proof in the pudding, no?  There is a big differne between acknowleging that sex tension exists, and making everything a d*ck joke (pardon me, Eric's grandma).

Ok - it seems this thread might have does, but perhaps it will stir up agian - I hope buttercup will at reply, if only to say "I agree to disagree."


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## Arravis (Oct 7, 2002)

It is an interesting topic... and I hope to see some opposing views.

I do disagree with some of your points (especially about loosing respect for someone just becauce they don't meet your standards in all aspects of life.), but overall I think you are being more "realistic" about it then others here might be. Political correctness isn't truth... I think that's something that is too often forgotten.

Our one evolutionary imperative is reproduction... I think it's unrealistic to think that it doesn't work our way into every aspect of our lives (even if we aren't aware of it). I'm not claiming that we should act like sex-crazed teenagers... but it is on the minds and, more often then some may care to admit, in our actions. As we grow older and more mature, we learn to control the impulses and to act on those feelings in a more subtle manner.

Just my 2 cents... I could go on all day, but I'll stop here, lol.


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## Rel (Oct 7, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *Our one evolutionary imperative is reproduction... I could go on all day. *




Good for you, Arravis! 5 or 6 hours is all I can manage now that I'm old.


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## Omega Lord (Oct 7, 2002)

Just to throw something out there.

One thing about american society (check that ,the whole of western civilization) that constantly amuses me is some people's simultaneous preoccupation with sex and their denial that they are preoccupied. Granted im speaking in very broad generalizations, but society at large seems to have this idea. Case and point, the skewed moralities taught by our church and our TV (thank god i dont watch anything but movies anymore). Personally, thanks to a recent reorganization of my way of thinking prompted by some truly profound literature i got my hands on recently (and no i dont mean the core rulebooks  ) I have come to terms with my own views on sex and sexuality. Ill stop ranting about my personal revelations now . Anyway thoughts?, comments?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: the 3%  !*



			
				incognito said:
			
		

> *Incognito (me):  Not caring what society thinks of you, is...almost...the definition of uncool.  Having 'society' approve and want to be like you would be cool.  Not too many guys coming up to me and saying "Hey!  You should've seen the way I took down that dragon last Friday!  Power Attack and Brilliant energy weapons rock!"  But I do have poeple talk about the Football game, the Soprano's, how many pints they had on Friday.  And Hey don't shoot the messenger, I'm just saying that from a societal point of view, roleplaying = not cool. *




Societal conformity = not cool.  When the term "cool" was invented, it applied to those who didn't care what society thought of them.  They did their own thing regardless of what people thought of them.

THAT'S cool.

Subsequent redefinition of the term "cool" by the baby boomers so they could keep thinking they were cool is irrelevant.

What you're espousing is conformity.  Happy droning.


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## RobNJ (Oct 7, 2002)

Omega Lord said:
			
		

> *Anyway thoughts?, comments? *



Yes, though I doubt they have anything to do with what you said.

It's, simply, about respect.  Sexualizing women ignores their other assets.  It's disrespectful to ignore everything about someone but one, even if it's something they're proud of or cherish.  For example, let's say you're able to cook really well.  It's something you're proud of and, moreover, it's something that's necessary to live (well, eating is anyway).

However, you don't want every single conversation you have to be about food.  You don't want people only talking about food to you, or only thinking about food no matter what it is they may actually be talking about.  It would be disrespectful and dehumanizing to you.

Is being interested in your ability to cook well appropriate?  Sure.  Is it appropriate to focus solely on food and ignore the other things you have to say?  No.

That said, I'm probably fairly sex-obsessed.  I'm just good at also being polite.

There's a bit of a reactionary thread hereabouts that's kind of disturbing and depressing.  I just wanted to sing a different, discordant, tune.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 7, 2002)

I'm recently become single.

Whether this means I am more, or less, sex-obsessed than I was say two months ago is debatable.


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## kenjib (Oct 7, 2002)

Arravis said:
			
		

> *Political correctness isn't truth... I think that's something that is too often forgotten.
> *




Anti-PC isn't truth either.  So, really this point is completely meaningless.  There's no need to apply labels to things.  I like to argue based on the merits of the points made rather than broad labels that may or may not have anything to do with someone's position on something.


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## maddman75 (Oct 7, 2002)

Incognito - I share a lot of your attitudes.  While I don't hide that I play D&D, I certainly don't bring it up to some girl I'm chatting up down at the bar.  

There's been several posts saying things like 



> It's, simply, about respect. Sexualizing women ignores their other assets. It's disrespectful to ignore everything about someone but one, even if it's something they're proud of or cherish. For example, let's say you're able to cook really well. It's something you're proud of and, moreover, it's something that's necessary to live (well, eating is anyway).
> 
> However, you don't want every single conversation you have to be about food. You don't want people only talking about food to you, or only thinking about food no matter what it is they may actually be talking about. It would be disrespectful and dehumanizing to you.




This is my attitude - these things are unrelated.  To get this you have to understand that I am not looking for a wife, soul mate, or any other such thing.  Been there done that.  I look for friends, and what we have in common determines what we do together.

Friend one is a good cook (to use RobNJ's example) so maybe we hang out and she cooks for me.  We go out to eat at restraunts.  Whether we do everything together or not depends on what else we have in common.  Do we like the same movies?  Do we like gaming?  Are we attacted to each other?

If you give up the idea that you must find One Special Person to be all things to you, you gain a lot of freedom.  It does not mean that you don't respect someone if they have or don't have certain qualities.  I also realize that most people don't think this way.


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## Rel (Oct 7, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *It's, simply, about respect.  Sexualizing women ignores their other assets.  It's disrespectful to ignore everything about someone but one, even if it's something they're proud of or cherish.  For example, let's say you're able to cook really well.  It's something you're proud of and, moreover, it's something that's necessary to live (well, eating is anyway).
> 
> However, you don't want every single conversation you have to be about food.  You don't want people only talking about food to you, or only thinking about food no matter what it is they may actually be talking about.  It would be disrespectful and dehumanizing to you.*




Eloquently put, Rob.  And a good point too.

One further extension of your analogy, however:  If every time I see you, you offer me a gourmet meal that you happen to have on you, I'm going to associate you with food more strongly than if you cook me a meal every once in a while on special occasions.

What I'm saying is that the trend in fashion is more and more toward low cut jeans that are painted on and high cut tops that are barely there.  So if a woman constantly dresses in a way that draws attention to her appearance, I feel justified in paying attention to her appearance.

All of which is not in any way to suggest that I would consider it the most important criteria in choosing who I would like to associate with.


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## RobNJ (Oct 7, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *Eloquently put, Rob.  And a good point too.*



Thanks. Hopefully it will get me [hopelesswhiteguytryingtoseemhip]mad phat chix.[/hopelesswhiteguytryingtoseemhip]



> *One further extension of your analogy, however:  If every time I see you, you offer me a gourmet meal that you happen to have on you, I'm going to associate you with food more strongly than if you cook me a meal every once in a while on special occasions.*



If you're always smelling of food and--argh.  Screw this.

If a woman is dressed provocatively, you can't really assume anything from it.  A lack of a bra may just indicate that she doesn't feel comfortable in them.  I will avoid further examples, lest I embarrass myself by revealing how little I know about women's clothing.

She has her own reasons for wearing the clothes she chooses to wear, and I don't think it's appropriate to treat her differently based on how she's dressed.  I'd endeavor not to.  Doesn't mean I'd succeed.  I'm sure I act differently with women I find attractive than ones I don't.  I don't want to, but I'm sure I do.  It remains appropriate to try to treat a woman the same to the best degree you can no matter how attractive she is to you and no matter how she's dressed.

And I'm not going to say, "That's my opinion," I'm going to say, "That's what's right."



> *What I'm saying is that the trend in fashion is more and more toward low cut jeans that are painted on and high cut tops that are barely there.  So if a woman constantly dresses in a way that draws attention to her appearance, I feel justified in paying attention to her appearance.*



Depends on how you define "paying attention."  There's a difference between noticing and allowing it to subtly affect your behavior and staring at boobies for 20 minutes without blinking.



> *All of which is not in any way to suggest that I would consider it the most important criteria in choosing who I would like to associate with. *



For me, yes, I'm attracted initially to people I find physically attractive.  My attraction parameters tend to focus on facial beauty rather than physical slimness (or fullness).  However, the woman I fell in love with most strongly in my life had a large nose.  I loved her, and I found her incredibly attractive, and that didn't matter to me (though it would have on, say, a model if I was asked to rate her physical appearance).  Why?  Because she was smarter than me, and hilarious, and we shared enough interests to be excited that one another liked Josie and the Pussycats: The Movie, while having divergent enough interests for me to inflict Robert Jordan on her and for her to introduce me to Bikini Kill.


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## Mercule (Oct 7, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *Otherwise they tend to look at you funny when you yell, "NATURAL 20!" at certain intimate moments. *




Cripes!

I've been married for 7 years and gamed with my wife for longer than that.  I think she'd _still_ file for divorce if I made an exclamation like that.


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## Rel (Oct 7, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *If a woman is dressed provocatively, you can't really assume anything from it.  A lack of a bra may just indicate that she doesn't feel comfortable in them.  I will avoid further examples, lest I embarrass myself by revealing how little I know about women's clothing.*




Well, technically, I can assume anything I want.  If she gets to dress any way she wants and go out in public, I'm allowed to draw any conclusions I want from it.  I might be wrong, but so what.

And I don't think that trying to pretend that she isn't dressed in a provocative manner is "what's right".  Based on what you wrote above, I should no more assume that she wants me to keep my eyes above her chin level than I should assume that she wants me to holler, "nice rack!" from across the parking lot.

I don't believe there is any great wisdom in acting like hot girls aren't hot or acting like girls who are less attractive to you are not there.  The wisdom comes in understanding that comliness, nice though it may be, is only a superficial trait.  That doesn't make it meaningless, but they didn't include it in 3ED&D.

Make of that what you will.


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## Rel (Oct 7, 2002)

Mercule said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Cripes!
> 
> I've been married for 7 years and gamed with my wife for longer than that.  I think she'd _still_ file for divorce if I made an exclamation like that. *




Yeah, but it would still be worth it just to see the look on her face, don't you think?


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## barsoomcore (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Meepo muttered:_
> *If I could have my way, I'd marry Amy Winn.*



I hear you, little guy, but word on the street is that if Amy had her way, she'd marry Genevieve.  


> _Buttercup whispered:_
> *I'm not saying that I'm offended by flirting. Far from it. But I'd like you guys to try to imagine what it's like to want to have an intellectual discussion with someone who can't stop staring at your chest. *



Anyone who's idea of flirting involves staring at a woman's chest hasn't really gotten the idea quite right, wouldn't you say? Flirting is a fun, wholesome activity that engages the wit and the heart, makes the blood pump a little faster, and when done successfully leaves two people feeling good about themselves. Whether or not it involves sex in any capacity is beside the point. I have had great fun flirting with people I had no intention of ever sleeping with.


> _Rel mentioned:_
> *I don't believe there is any great wisdom in acting like hot girls aren't hot or acting like girls who are less attractive to you are not there.*



This was in response to RobNJ's point about treating women as well as one can regardless of the type of attire they are wearing. Here's what I say:

Rudeness is rudeness and when someone is talking to you, not paying attention is rude. For whatever reason. Likewise not taking someone seriously. It's hurtful and insulting and I believe that one should always strive to avoid being hurtful.

So if I meet a lovely woman dressed in some fashion (whatever that may be), I'll treat her just as I like. I like paying attention to people (unless they're dull) and taking them seriously (unless they're idiots). And sure, dull, idiotic but beautiful women have really only one means of entertaining me, which involves me oserving their physical beauty. And I have certainly spent time with dull idiotic but beautiful women for no purpose other than to observe their beauty.

But interesting, smart and wise women have all sorts of ways of entertaining me and enriching my life, and I would never want to cheat myself out of a potential experience by irritating such a woman when she realises I'm just leering down her shirt and paying no attention to what she's saying.

Which I think is the issue. I think when most of us realise that someone is assessing our physical attractiveness, how we respond depends entirely on what we think of that person. If that person is ignoring every word we say then we're unlikely to be much impressed. It's not the ogling, is what I'm suggesting. I think that most of us are happy to be ogled by someone who evidently likes us, takes note of what we say and at least appears to consider our happiness.

I leer at my wife constantly. I convinced her to wear her shirts unbuttoned down past her cleavage when we go to parties just so I can drool into my beer. Yeah, sure, we can go home and she can take it completely off. But there's something about that half-hidden view...

Did I get off-topic? Oh, right, so ogling = no big deal. It's respect and consideration that matter, and they don't have so much to do with ogling.


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## RobNJ (Oct 7, 2002)

Something else I wanted to mention:  Hormones don't do as much as people think they do, popularly.

That subthread back a bit, I heard that NPR story, too.  Some things I don't think were mentioned:

They spoke to a doctor whose specialty lies in this field at the end, after he heard the story.  He pointed out that the people in the story had an incredible shift in testosterone levels, and it is more likely that the magnetude of the change had a lot more to do with the emotional/behavioral changes than the simple level.

Second, the testing of testosterone levels showed that not every stereotype you might have with regard to testosterone levels was true.  The "winner" among the women was the boss, but she wasn't the most accomplished/famous of them (argueably, that'd be Sarah Vowell, who's published two books).  The highest levels among the men was in a gay man who had no interest in sports, and who was not the one in charge of things on the show.

Standard disclaimer: this is not to say that I view homosexuality as inheritly less male than heterosexuality, but I was addressing stereotypical views on hormones.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Anyone who's idea of flirting involves staring at a woman's chest hasn't really gotten the idea quite right, wouldn't you say? Flirting is a fun, wholesome activity that engages the wit and the heart, makes the blood pump a little faster, and when done successfully leaves two people feeling good about themselves. Whether or not it involves sex in any capacity is beside the point. I have had great fun flirting with people I had no intention of ever sleeping with. *




Amen to that.  One of my friends in college and I had a relationship that practically revolved around flirting with each other.  We flirted with each other at her wedding.

I'm in a loving, committed relationship, but I still flirt with a number of the ladies in the assorted offices I have to deal with at work.  I even flirt with a few of the undergrads I work with.  Though that one's a touchier subject.  One girl in the department completely failed to understand why I suddenly stopped flirting with her when I became a TA for one of her classes.  Eventually, I explained myself when she thought something was wrong.  She then proceeded to make me blush like a schoolgirl.

Flirting is good, clean fun.  



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Something else I wanted to mention: Hormones don't do as much as people think they do, popularly. *




Definitely.  As someone mentioned a while back, maturity is probably the salient factor.  It's one thing when a 16 year old kid can't keep his eyes off the woman next door's sweater enough to actually manage a conversation.  It's quite another when his 40 year old father comes out and does the _exact_ same thing.

The first is actually somewhat amusing.  The second is downright creepy.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *I hear you, little guy, but word on the street is that if Amy had her way, she'd marry Genevieve.  *




Why? Simply because she enjoys doing construction work?  Something that is historically associated with men?  I think it is sad that whenever women do something that in general has been done by men means they are lesbian.

About women wearing certain types of clothing......A woman that wears something showing a lot of cleavage obviously wishes to display what she has, not that she is asking for anything more than that.  Just as a man with a defined chest might wear a tight shirt, or wear tight pants for.....other reasons.

As for women having many sexual partners being looked down on and the opposite for men I do think that is a shame.  Personally I think members of either sex doing that is something not to be looked on with favor.  Myself, I won't have sex, but I will make love, if you don't know the differense I feel sorry for you.


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## DarkShiv (Oct 8, 2002)

Do it all, as much as possible. Just keep it to a minimum of people. Women gamers, like women with glasses, have always made me look twice. I like the idea of conversation. It really doesn't matter in the end. Judgement of such is usually in fear of one's own faults.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Why?*



Mostly it's the outrageous flirting that goes on between them, but the comment that really flipped me was Amy's: "She can melt my marshmallow any time."

Look, I don't know these women and I wasn't being serious but they certainly do behave like a flirting couple, and they're both very funny, very likable people and I like them and they make me laugh. So I was sharing a laugh. Sorry to offend, it was not in any way my intent.


> *I think it is sad that whenever women do something that in general has been done by men means they are lesbian.*



So do I, Dragongirl. My wife makes really cool gun sound effects -- normally the province of males -- and I can assure you she is not lesbian.

Once again I apologize and hope you believe I meant no offense, and indeed did not mean to seriously imply that Amy Winn is a lesbian.


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

This thread is going quite the distance isn't it........


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> So do I, Dragongirl. My wife makes really cool gun sound effects -- normally the province of males -- and I can assure you she is not lesbian.
> ...





 I think that Dragongirl and your wife should go out and go bowling.......in all seriousness, barsoomcore, I don't think you should have to apologize; Dragongirl has opened a can of worms here, and she may not like everything that comes crawling out.........


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> * ...Dragongirl has opened a can of worms here, and she may not like everything that comes crawling out......... *




Nah.  I don't think anyone's going to come down on her too hard.  We're a pretty easy going bunch here.  

Silliness aside, we're also a pretty female-friendly bunch.  I think this thread is evidence of that.

Many boards I'm familiar with would have long since degenerated to "Girlz don't got game.  Now put down those dice and go bake me a pie!"  

The worst we ever got was silly, though maybe I was being a bit "reactionary" when I jumped on the "D&D /= cool" comment earlier.  But I yam what I yam.  And I yam NOT a conformist.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> * I think that Dragongirl and your wife should go out and go bowling.......in all seriousness, barsoomcore, I don't think you should have to apologize; Dragongirl has opened a can of worms here, and she may not like everything that comes crawling out......... *




I don't see how I have opened a can of worms.  Nor have I asked anyone to appologize to me.  I simply stated my views, others don't agree or agree depending on how they feel.

Edit : Speaking of Trading Spaces romances, I think that tall dark haired woman....something Santo Thomas, has a thing for Ty.


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## Tyrion (Oct 8, 2002)

This thread has given me an excuse, albeit a flimsy one, to post a picture of the D&D-playing Lexa Doig:







That is all.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Who's Lexa Doig?

And if anybody says, "The girl in the picture" I'll sic a gremlin on your hard drive


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *Who's Lexa Doig?
> 
> And if anybody says, "The girl in the picture" I'll sic a gremlin on your hard drive  *




She is the girl in the picture   Actually I didn't know who she was either so looked her up.  She is an actress that seems to appear in a lot of Sci-Fi series, such as Earth : Final Conflict, Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda and TekWar.


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Well she is very pretty indeed.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

You nearly got a gremlin for sauciness alone  , but thanks for the info


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *Well she is very pretty indeed. *




I'm guessing that's why he posted the pic.  But unless she's a lesbian, it's pretty off-topic


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Hey if she was a lesbian that wouldn't be all that bad......


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## Knightcrawler (Oct 8, 2002)

Don't forget Jason X.  She probably wishes she could forget about  that.  But hey you gotta start somewhere.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

> Hey if she was a lesbian that wouldn't be all that bad......



Did anyone else see that coming?  

I didn't say it would be bad.  Not at all.  But my days of lesbian-watching are far behind me.  I have left that legacy to the single and hormonal


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Whenever I find a man going gaga over the thoughts of 2 women together I just mention 2 men together.  Shuts them up fast.


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## Knightcrawler (Oct 8, 2002)

Anyways what good is watching if you can't get in on the action.  But yes is a standard male stereotype.


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## Crothian (Oct 8, 2002)

This thread has taken a very interesting turn.  It's sometime enjoyible to just sit back and watch were these type of threads go.  Back to the Peanut Gallery.


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## Griswold (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> snip
> 
> Edit : Speaking of Trading Spaces romances, I think that tall dark haired woman....something Santo Thomas, has a thing for Ty. *




the dark haired designer..that's Hilde and yeah I have to agree though it seems most women have a thing for Ty.




G


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Whenever I find a man going gaga over the thoughts of 2 women together I just mention 2 men together.  Shuts them up fast.   *




That's cuz girls is purty and soft.  And guys is hairy and lumpy and shouldn't be seen by the light of day.

I do NOT envy heterosexual women having to put up with us (physically or mentally), but I sure ain't complaining about it.


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## Griswold (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> snip
> I didn't say it would be bad.  Not at all.  But my days of lesbian-watching are far behind me.  I have left that legacy to the single and hormonal   *




ahh, the good'ol days 


Gris.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *the dark haired designer..that's Hilde and yeah I have to agree though it seems most women have a thing for Ty.*




Ty is cute, with a great stomach, but seems to have a problem with hygiene, and I think his personality would grow old after a while.


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Well said Canis, well said.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *ahh, the good'ol days  *




I would reminisce further, but my girlfriend has been known to glance at the boards, and I think I got myself into enough trouble in this thread already


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *That's cuz girls is purty and soft.  And guys is hairy and lumpy and shouldn't be seen by the light of day.
> 
> I do NOT envy heterosexual women having to put up with us (physically or mentally), but I sure ain't complaining about it.   *




Had a boyfriend once that mentioned so and so girl would be interesting to have a threesome with.  I replied right after I get to choose a guy for a threesome first.  Never ever brought it up again.


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I would reminisce further, but my girlfriend has been known to glance at the boards, and I think I got myself into enough trouble in this thread already   *




 Ah what the hell Canis why not.....


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> * Ah what the hell Canis why not..... *




You _trying_ to get me into trouble?!

She's in Japan right now, and I _really_ don't need a visit from the Yakuza equivalent of a Brooklyn kneecap smasher...


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *Well said Canis, well said. *




Thanks.  But which part?


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## Griswold (Oct 8, 2002)

Theuderic said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah what the hell Canis why not..... *




I don't think that's the kind of story hour Morrus envisioned...



Gris.


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You trying to get me into trouble?!
> 
> She's in Japan right now, and I really don't need a visit from the Yakuza equivalent of a Brooklyn kneecap smasher... *




  LOL! This has been fun but I'd better stop before I get kicked out LOL!


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## Griswold (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Had a boyfriend once that mentioned so and so girl would be interesting to have a threesome with.  I replied right after I get to choose a guy for a threesome first.  Never ever brought it up again. *




ha, now what if he had said Ok?

Gris.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *ha, now what if he had said Ok?
> 
> Gris. *




Well then....would have been some interesting experiences.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think that's the kind of story hour Morrus envisioned...*



LOL

And his grandmother would have kittens.  

On a side note, I was trying to formulate a reply to Dragongirl in my head, and I realized that the term "girlfriend" is starting to annoy the hell out of me.

It sounds insignificant to describe someone you've been with for nearly 4 years and whom you intend to marry (when you both finally nail down those doctorates in about an eternity...  )  Fiancee isn't quite appropriate yet, either, as there has not been an official proposal (if only because we both prefer shorter engagements)

Does anyone have a more appropriate term?


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> LOL
> 
> And his grandmother would have kittens.  *




Naw that is Eric's grandmother.



			
				Canis said:
			
		

> *On a side note, I was trying to formulate a reply to Dragongirl in my head, and I realized that the term "girlfriend" is starting to annoy the hell out of me.
> 
> It sounds insignificant to describe someone you've been with for nearly 4 years and whom you intend to marry (when you both finally nail down those doctorates in about an eternity...  )  Fiancee isn't quite appropriate yet, either, as there has not been an official proposal (if only because we both prefer shorter engagements)
> 
> Does anyone have a more appropriate term? *




How about soul mate?


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Ah yes the worms come forth .........


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## Theuderic (Oct 8, 2002)

Here it comes....                                          whew,  I just had to get that out of my system...........


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Naw that is Eric's grandmother.*




D'OH!

This is why you shouldn't use the boards as an insomnia treatment.  



> *How about soul mate? *




Personally, I love it.  It's the perfect term for how I feel about her.  I've been resisting using it because people tend to roll their eyes at you when you do.  And condescension sets my teeth on edge.  Then again.  $#^& them.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *Personally, I love it.  It's the perfect term for how I feel about her.  I've been resisting using it because people tend to roll their eyes at you when you do.  And condescension sets my teeth on edge.  Then again.  $#^& them.   *




They only react that way because they have no idea what it is to have one, or they are jealous.    IMO


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *They only react that way because they have no idea what it is to have one, or they are jealous.    IMO *




Either that, or they're even more cynical than I used to be...

Thanks for the reinforcement


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## Griswold (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> snip
> 
> Personally, I love it.  It's the perfect term for how I feel about her.  I've been resisting using it because people tend to roll their eyes at you when you do.  And condescension sets my teeth on edge.  Then again.  $#^& them.   *




yeah, there's always somebody like that around, screw'em! If the term fits, use it.

Gris.


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## Guilt Puppy (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Posted by Arravis_
> I'm not claiming that we should act like sex-crazed teenagers... but it is on the minds and, more often then some may care to admit, in our actions. As we grow older and more mature, we learn to control the impulses and to act on those feelings in a more subtle manner.




Subtle, maybe, but subtle can also mean manipulative. I respect the awkward "hey, I like you, you think maybe...?" of high school students to the practiced, confident "so, what is your line of work? Oh, _fascinating_" of the mature world... It just strikes me as sinister.

But then again, I just turned 20, so I might just be looking for excuses everywhere not to grow up.



> _Dragongirl_
> Whenever I find a man going gaga over the thoughts of 2 women together I just mention 2 men together. Shuts them up fast.




That doesn't work on _every_ guy, you know. Careful about generalizations 

At any rate... Political correctness in general, while I don't think it's _evil_ exactly, isn't something I try to practice. By my standards, part of being respectful toward people is being honest toward them, and making a glance at cleavage is an honest response. To me, it seems far more disrespectful to assume that a person cannot handle the very simple reality that human beings are sexually attracted to other human beings.

Yes, unwanted advances can be annoying -- but so can being ignored because you're unattractive. It can also be annoying to have to repeat yourself because you have an accent. And hey, you have every right to complain about -- just don't expect everyone else to make it their problem.

That said, I still feel genuinely sorry for anyone who has to hear "wanna play dungeons and dragons? You be the dungeon, I'll be the dragon."


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> *Subtle, maybe, but subtle can also mean manipulative. I respect the awkward "hey, I like you, you think maybe...?" of high school students to the practiced, confident "so, what is your line of work? Oh, fascinating" of the mature world... It just strikes me as sinister. *




No.  Sinister is the guy in my high school who pretended to be a closeted homosexual for 4 months.  In that time he "outed" himself to (as far as we were able to determine later) 5 female members of the drama club and 4 female members of the marching band.  He played up the tortured, "I don't think I can handle this" and "You're the only one I can trust" angles, and at the end of the 4 months, he managed to sleep with 6 of them in less than 2 weeks before word got around enough to stop him.

Sinister is the guy who tried to run over his girlfriend when he found out she was pregnant.

I don't think sinister develops with age.  It's either part of your make-up from early on or not.

btw- "hey, I like you..." still works until at least 21.  I can't comment on after that as I went off the market.


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## boothbey (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Either that, or they're even more cynical than I used to be...
> 
> Thanks for the reinforcement   *




Consider yourself reinforced by me as well, Canis.

Soul Mate is the perfect descripter.  And I too have been eye rolled at in recent months for it.


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## S'mon (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm guessing that's why he posted the pic.  But unless she's a lesbian, it's pretty off-topic  *




Not if she's a Single Woman Gamer.


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## S'mon (Oct 8, 2002)

Canis said:
			
		

> *
> LOL
> 
> And his grandmother would have kittens.
> ...




"Common Law Wife" was the old term. 

"Live-in Lover" was the slightly less old term.

Or even "Betrothed", since you clearly do intend to marry you just don't want to say you're Engaged.


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## Swack-Iron (Oct 8, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> "Common Law Wife" was the old term.
> 
> ...




"Lover" if it's just for sex. (Or one of several other terms that would damage Eric's grandmother's eyesight.)

"Girlfriend" if it's casual dating.

"Fiance" if you're engaged to be married.

I've always been partial to "partner," however, for the situation originally described: physically and emotionally close who have been together for years and intend to stay together for years. It looks cheesy when you right it, but try saying it romantically, and you'll find it's pretty profound.


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## Dalith (Oct 8, 2002)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *they won't drool on the DMs girlfriend and risk a tactical nuclear assault by the orcs that suddenly developed nuclear technology.
> *




I just got the great image of orcs with nukes in my head and laughed my head off. And promoted the new sig. 

Hmm... so many topics and so late in the thread to arrive.

Personally the only women I have gamed with were introduced into the social group first then to the game. One entered the group thorough dating the guy the other just joining then hooked up quickly. but they constitute about 10% of the people I have gamed with. There has never relay been much sexual tension in the group but there have been relationship issues. Unfortunately it never seems to get fix just buried or split in group.

As far as the guys and control thing goes. I come from a medium size line of high sex drive males, And mine follows suit. I learned at an early to not look at chest when talking to women. But they always turn my head whenever they walk past. And on campus my neck muscles get a lot of work. 
Having a Christian background and wanting to be a truly good person and the fact I never really was attracted to anyone for anything but their looks, I kinda started to really worry if I was like the stereotypical guy that couldn't get past looks. Then I fell in love. The lady's look were actually unattractive to me. It was wonderful on so many levels. But then I still love to look at beautiful ladies much the same way I like to look at beautiful art

And of course,
DragonGirl and DragonLady you are both very pretty. As a scadian I like your outfit DragonLady.


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## Agback (Oct 8, 2002)

Swack-Iron said:
			
		

> *I've always been partial to "partner," however, for the situation originally described: physically and emotionally close who have been together for years and intend to stay together for years. It looks cheesy when you right it, but try saying it romantically, and you'll find it's pretty profound. *




"Partner" always makes me think of law firms.

What about 'inamorata'? Too long, perhaps?

Regards,


Agback


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## Katerek (Oct 8, 2002)

inamorata sounds too much like Pat Morita...sort of.

Any who...


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Or even "Betrothed", since you clearly do intend to marry you just don't want to say you're Engaged.  *




Yeah.  It sounds silly.  But I'm kind of a romantic, and I want to do the whole 9 yards of the official proposal routine before I start calling us "engaged."

If financial and career circumstances permitted, I'd just as soon go ahead with it now.  But they don't, so I can't.  And I'm not the kind of person who can handle being "engaged" for four years.  There are enough people on our backs about our "official status" now.  My mother, for one, would be absolutely UNBEARABLE by year 3 of an "official" engagement.   

As for the rest, we've only lived in the same structure intermittently throughout.  At other times, we've been within about a half mile of each other.  And at the extreme, she's spent significant portions of her time overseas.  So we probably don't qualify for "common law" status. 

Swack-Iron, "partner" while I like the idea behind it, is out if only because of where I work.  I work among very, um... liberal... academics.  "Partner" is a strange term around here.  Often a person's "partner" and their wife aren't the same person.  I think I confuse them enough without having to regularly explain the concept of "monogamy" to them.

Agback, I kind of like "inamorata", despite Katerek's reservations , but I think she'd think I was insane.


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## Rel (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *About women wearing certain types of clothing......A woman that wears something showing a lot of cleavage obviously wishes to display what she has, not that she is asking for anything more than that.  *




I know that this comment was not necessarily directed at one of my posts, but after I saw it I wanted to offer a clarification (and ask for one).  I hope nothing I said indicated that I believed that the fact that a woman dressed provocatively necessarily meant that she was "easy" or "looking for some action" or anything like that.  I just meant what you said, Dragongirl - she wished to display what she has.

But I hope you are not trying to suggest that while she has the right to display it that the people who she does this around have no right to observe it.  Because that sounds dangerously close to saying, "You have no right to judge me for wearing this low cut, tight outfit, but I have every right to judge you for paying so much attention to what I've tried to draw attention to."

Personally, I'm of the opinion that I would prefer to associate with people who don't feel like they have to dress "provocatively" in order to feel good about themselves.  And I prefer to be the kind of person who is going to look at an attractive woman, but I'm not going to leer.  I think it just makes you look desperate (which is rarely perceived as attractive).


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Rel said:
			
		

> *I know that this comment was not necessarily directed at one of my posts, but after I saw it I wanted to offer a clarification (and ask for one).  I hope nothing I said indicated that I believed that the fact that a woman dressed provocatively necessarily meant that she was "easy" or "looking for some action" or anything like that.  I just meant what you said, Dragongirl - she wished to display what she has.
> 
> But I hope you are not trying to suggest that while she has the right to display it that the people who she does this around have no right to observe it.  Because that sounds dangerously close to saying, "You have no right to judge me for wearing this low cut, tight outfit, but I have every right to judge you for paying so much attention to what I've tried to draw attention to."*




Nope, my comment was not directed at you or anyone else.  And I was not saying that no one had a right to observe it.  If a woman decides to wear a very revealing blouse then she deserves the looks she gets. Not saying a woman needs to wear a nun habit, but there is a point at which it goes from comfort to trying for sex appeal.  And don't confuse this opinion of mine to run all the way to she is asking for more than being looked at.  Look but do not touch.


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## Rel (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope, my comment was not directed at you or anyone else.  And I was not saying that no one had a right to observe it.  If a woman decides to wear a very revealing blouse then she deserves the looks she gets. Not saying a woman needs to wear a nun habit, but there is a point at which it goes from comfort to trying for sex appeal.  And don't confuse this opinion of mine to run all the way to she is asking for more than being looked at.  Look but do not touch. *




Fair enough.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## incognito (Oct 8, 2002)

No buttercup reply, eh?  ok - S'probably for the best.

So, a few comments:

Glad to see the threads back online, and of course we're all glad to hear how good Dragon Girl's and Theuderic's relationship is.

The original point of this thread was the lack, in general, of female gamers, and perhaps the impact of having female player in your group (or a female DM, I should mention).  

I gave all my personal history not becasue I want to make my life an open book, but becasue I wanted the reader to know where I stood in the gaming social heirarchy.  That is to say, soemone who likes to game, but is somewhat shy about revealing this to the general public.  And in general a resonable example of someone who is socially ept.

Someone said that they go to out socially to meet 'people' not women, and depending on what interests they have in common, that will determine the nature of thier relation ship.  What a great way of thinking!  I find that attitude very mature.  I think I may be too...passionate?...to wholly embrace this.  I seem to like who I like, often in spite of the differnces  - or maybe becasue of them (opposites attract factor).

Someone else said that we are not controlled by our hormones as much as we blme.  Wholly fasle.  Anyone who has had the unfortunatle experience of a brain tumor (Not I), can tell you that when the body releases too much of a certain hormone, our emotion levels respond.  We are hard wired to react in certian ways, based on the prescence or abscence of these hormones.  I think it was Rel who mentioned calming down once he got older.  One reason is his testosterone levels have fallen, changing the way his perspective is colored.  On a more misogonystic note: anyone who has dated a girl more than a month knows about a certian time when it's best to tread ligthly.  One study does not convince me of anything.

Finally, on the topic of female attire - something I am somewhat of a admirier of, I admit.  Most female clothing is meant to highlight their...ahhh...attributes.  In most species there is a gender which diplays more color and is on display for the purposes of courtship.  I assert that this is the female for humans.  Most clothing stores will feature more colors, styles, and cuts of clothing and jewlery for women than men.  Men's clothing tends towards the utilitarian.  And where exactly do you think the stereo type of women liking to shop comes from?

All these things (hormones, societal influence, and our need to reproduce), influence social gatherings where both sexes attend.  That is why I said there is sexual tension at mixed company gaming table.  And, I still maintain, is healthy.

PS: DragonGirl: Making love is truly somehitng to be cherished, I agree - But sex without love is a lot better for you than spending time alone consistently.  And if you are not in a relationship, there is PLENTY of alone time to be had, if you really need it.  Just to give you perspective.  

And then there are those out there who 'force' themselves to fall in love so they can sleep with someone.  That seems like an equally bad idea...


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## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by incognito _



I am not taking a single thing you've said at face value.  It seems very clear to me that you are hoping to offend people and eager to get into an argument so you can further expound on your misogyny.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 8, 2002)

incognito said:
			
		

> *Someone else said that we are not controlled by our hormones as much as we blme.  Wholly fasle.... I think it was Rel who mentioned calming down once he got older. One reason is his testosterone levels have fallen, changing the way his perspective is colored.    *




I am going to take a cue from RobNJ and only respond to the pure factual misrepresentation here.

After the last exchange on the subject, I realized my data was largely out of date, so I did a literature search...

It seems the drop in testosterone levels from age 18 to age 55 is about 4%.  Actually, it wasn't even statistically significant.

Don't try to B.S. the neurophysiologist.


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## Rel (Oct 8, 2002)

incognito said:
			
		

> *I think it was Rel who mentioned calming down once he got older.  One reason is his testosterone levels have fallen, changing the way his perspective is colored.  *




Whoa there my little bean-town buddy.  Before I get tarred with the same big brush coming your way, I don't think this was me.  Unless you are referring to my quip to Arravis about him "going all day" which was meant as a joke anyway.

Lest my virility come into question (heaven forbid) I still think about sex all the time.  I've just learned not to be a jerk about it (a skill that I admittedly lacked in my youth).

Sheesh.  I'm not that damn old!


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## Piratecat (Oct 8, 2002)

I think we're about done here.  Thread closed.


----------

