# They Killed Cap!



## Umbran (Mar 8, 2007)

CNN.com reports:Captain America is dead.

Marvel Comics may be dead to me.  I am not sure how I feel about this one...


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## Agamon (Mar 8, 2007)

We need to start a pool to see how long he stays dead.

I say he's back by December.

I mean, even Bucky came back, that's just lame.  I fell for this dying stuff 20 years ago, but not anymore....


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## CrusaderX (Mar 8, 2007)

Right.  Remember, this is the same Captain America whose arch-enemy is the Red Skull (who died and came back), whose sidekick is Bucky (who died and came back), whose girlfriend is Sharon Carter (who died and came back), whose buddy is Nick Fury (who died and came back), and who recently fought in Civil War against a bunch of other heroes, including Captain Marvel (who died and came back).

In other words, Cap will be back.


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## Steel_Wind (Mar 8, 2007)

Reboot of the character.  Cap was too goody two shoes for the current environment.

The costume will be back with a new twist.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 8, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Reboot of the character.  Cap was too goody two shoes for the current environment.
> 
> The costume will be back with a new twist.




This is exactly what worries me.

Today's comics are _full_ of characters who are willing to perform small evils to fight greater ones; characters for whom the ends justify the means.

Cap is one of the last, rare few who actually stand for the "hero" part of superhero. Comic books need _more_ like him (and Spidey, and Superman), not fewer.


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## Truth Seeker (Mar 8, 2007)

*In Remembrance*​


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## Ranger REG (Mar 8, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> CNN.com reports:Captain America is dead.



*Damn you, Kim Jong Il!!!*

*shakes fist violently*

 

So, will Steve Rogers finally stay dead? Will there be a reality show called _Who Wants to be Captain America?_ produced by Stan Lee? Will William Hung sing at the audition? Will the costume be Made in China? Will the new Cap crack under pressure, forgot to wear his codpiece, and finally shaved his head (costume and all) bald? Will he adopt a Vietnamese child? Will he jump couches and join Scientology?


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 8, 2007)

Captain America is dead....  who else saw that comming a mile away?  After all, if the Civil War storyline is an alligory for the events which many feel are happening in America...  Then its natural for Captain America would die.    Sigh..  where's Captain Morgan when you need him..?  Only he can make things better...


(I just hope that Captain America doesn't come back as Jack Bauer-esque character)


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## Klaus (Mar 8, 2007)

The whole "replace Steve Rogers with a more badass character" was already done in the late 80s, when that other dude became Captain America and Rogers became The Captain. Later they switched uniforms (ewww) and the other dude became USAgent... which, weirdly enough, will be in the new Omega Flight.

Quesada says he's dead? Well, this is the same man that said in print that The Sentry was a lost creation of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.


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## Fast Learner (Mar 8, 2007)

What I don't follow is why CNN and other media outlets fall for this junk.


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 8, 2007)

The media outlet is interested because Marvel is pushing the hype, because Marvel's print division needs all the attention they can get.

There's also a political allegory that I can't really expand upon.


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## kroh (Mar 8, 2007)

One of the posts on the Marvel board went on to say how Quesada flips on everything he says eventually anyway...

all in all this is a craptastic move.

Regards, 
Walt


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## Umbran (Mar 8, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> This is exactly what worries me.
> 
> Today's comics are _full_ of characters who are willing to perform small evils to fight greater ones; characters for whom the ends justify the means.




Agreed.  

I have put some thought to this - I realize that I actually don't mind them killing Cap, nor even bringing him back.  If it is part of a good story, rather than just a way to get sensation to sell the book.  I think there are good stories to be told with Cap dying and coming back, but my own cynical side sees this as a form of "jumping the shark".

So, you know what I think - let them kill Cap.  Let them bring him back, too.  But also let them _donate the profits_ from the book to a worthy charity.  Veterans organizations and hospitals, or something similar.  If they don't make profit, I'll accept that it really was because it was a good story that needed telling.


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## kroh (Mar 8, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> So, you know what I think - let them kill Cap.  Let them bring him back, too.  But also let them _donate the profits_ from the book to a worthy charity.  Veterans organizations and hospitals, or something similar.  If they don't make profit, I'll accept that it really was because it was a good story that needed telling.





http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/site/c.iqLTI2OBKlF/b.932833/k.CB9C/Home.htm

Regards, 
Walt


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## krunchyfrogg (Mar 8, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> There's also a political allegory that I can't really expand upon.



You hit the nail on the head there.  It's a good thing Marvel feels, as the Film Actors Guild does, the need to make political statements. (I'd add a "rolleyes" here if I could)


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## Quasqueton (Mar 8, 2007)

I’ve had several folks, mostly here at work, come to me and tell me they found this story, and to offer their condolences.

For Halloween 2 years back, I was Captain America. I have the shield here at my desk. My avatar in the company instant messenger network is Captain America.

I’ve told everyone who mentions this to me that Cap has “died” before. Most long-running, iconic super heroes have “died” at least once in their careers.

Spider-Man has “died”.
Superman has “died”.
Batman had his spine broken.
Iron Man has “died” and was shot through the spine (two different stories).
Just to name those that most non-comics fans would recognize.

It’s nice that most people around me associate me with Cap’n A. It’s funny that the other resident comic fans have not mentioned the story to me. I guess they understand, and they know that I understand.

Quasqueton


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## D.Shaffer (Mar 8, 2007)

Agamon said:
			
		

> We need to start a pool to see how long he stays dead.



I give it a year. 2 at most.


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## Agamon (Mar 8, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Later they switched uniforms (ewww) and the other dude became USAgent... which, weirdly enough, will be in the new Omega Flight.




USAgent is going to be in Omega Flight?  Did the concept of the Canadian teams change, or is this just more allegory?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 8, 2007)

He will be back, but this is just another effect of the insipid Civil War storyline and the low point of the Quesada years.  I used to be a marvel zombie, now I can't stand the kind of books Marvel puts out.  I still pickup Invincible trades, but that is it for comics for me over the last six months.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 8, 2007)

How many people actually read the story and felt that it worked within the context of what had come before in the comic?


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 8, 2007)

Agamon said:
			
		

> We need to start a pool to see how long he stays dead.
> 
> I say he's back by December.




Ed Brubaker, who's writing the Cap book currently, has just said that a planned six-issue arc has now blossomed into 9 issues, so I'd say that long at least. 9 months (or, given Marvel's delays of late, possibly longer).

Steve Rogers probably won't be back as Cap until 2008 sometime, but he will be back, of course. Not the first time he's been "dead".



			
				Fast Learner said:
			
		

> What I don't follow is why CNN and other media outlets fall for this junk.




Probably because, in this case, they can try and connect the dots to the whole Iraq War/9-11/Patriotic stories that abound in the news, given the nature of the Captain America character.

Is this any less newsworthy than, say, Anna Nicole Smith's death/disposal of her remains? Or Paris Hilton's latest debacle of the week?


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## Matchstick (Mar 8, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> This is exactly what worries me.
> 
> Today's comics are _full_ of characters who are willing to perform small evils to fight greater ones; characters for whom the ends justify the means.
> 
> Cap is one of the last, rare few who actually stand for the "hero" part of superhero. Comic books need _more_ like him (and Spidey, and Superman), not fewer.




QFT.  

This is why Cap is one of my favorites.  I don't think he'll stay dead though, I'm actually going to bet he didn't die at all, that's it's some faked death that will allow him to lead the resistance without worrying about being tracked down.  Possibly even done without his consent.  

Just give it six or eight months, and then start watching for a shadowy figure to start appearing in different Marvel books.


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 8, 2007)

Remember: in comics, nobody major stays dead.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 8, 2007)

Having just read _Civil War: The Initiative_, it's revealed there that Cap isn't dead but is on life support fighting for his life. So much for lasting drama. Kill him and resurrect him in the same frakin' week. Marvel continues to disappoint me in every title except _Moon Knight_.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

the death of Superman should have taught the world that comic book deaths are a dime a dozen.


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## Grymar (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm not a serious comic book fan, but I do read occasional ones.  With that in mind, I've heard a lot of hate about Civil War on the internet.  Why?  I read a few of the early ones borrowed from a friend and I thought it was an interesting idea.

I'm not arguing, I'm asking from my own ignorance...why the hate on the Civil War series?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 8, 2007)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Having just read _Civil War: The Initiative_, it's revealed there that Cap isn't dead but is on life support fighting for his life. So much for lasting drama. Kill him and resurrect him in the same frakin' week. Marvel continues to disappoint me in every title except _Moon Knight_.



 Actually, I believe that's a timeline strangeness.

From everything I've been able to find out, the Initiative story where that's said is actually in the MIDDLE of Cap 25...the end of which shows Rogers' body in the morgue, and definitely not being kept alive.

EDIT: Oh, and on the note of the hate on Civil War...this is the internet. People will hate on pretty much everything to a degree that is far beyond what the actual reception of something usually is. I, personally, have LOVED Civil War and have been a Marvel fan for sooooo very long...and everyone I know that has read it has also loved it.


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## Villano (Mar 8, 2007)

Normally, I'd dismiss it as nothing more than "The Death of Superman", i.e., a typical comic books story (a hero is "killed", but will eventually return) that got blown out of proportion by the media.  However, considering Quesada's run (or should I say "ruin") of Marvel, I don't know what to expect.  He's said many stupid things and then claimed that he was just starting false rumors.  One story is that he wanted to reveal that Peter Parker was sexually abused by Uncle Ben.  I think he was actually serious about this because the story was apparently leaked by Marvel editors who were freaked out by the idea.  It's possible the editors were part of a rumor plot, but I think that would have come out by now. 

There's also the "Iron Cap" rumor.   A cover by Marc Silverstri surfaced featuring a red, white, and blue Iron Man, holding an American flag in one hand and Cap's shield in the other.   The rumor, however, is that they're going to kill off Cap and reveal that the Cap we've known all these years was a clone and the "real" Steve Rogers was secretly Iron Man all this time.   

Personally, I'm guessing that Tony will take over as Cap or put someone else in the armor.   Although, I wouldn't be shocked if they reveal that Cap was killed in WW2 and "our" Cap was a clone.  Or that Tony clones Cap to create a Captain America more in line with his viewpoint.

I don't know.  Quesada is full of so many bad ideas, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.


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## jonathan swift (Mar 8, 2007)

The problems people had with Civil War are numerous. A few big ones are writing characters completely different than how they have been written in the past (evil fascist Stark and Richards?). The fact that the pro-Reg side did absolutely nothing that a "hero" would do and somehow comes out in the end of the fight as having the moral high ground. People are upset because Marvel took their favorite characters and essentially performed character assassination on the whole lot of them in order to tell a not very compelling story that was done just to make a political point. Imagine if you will someone writing a Smurfs movie or something where Papa Smurf ends up joining forces with Gargamel to kill off undesirable Smurfs because they don't fit Papa's agenda and in the end Papa is made out to be the good guy.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 8, 2007)

Villano said:
			
		

> I don't know.  Quesada is full of so many bad ideas, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.





So true.  Him, JMS, and Bendis drove me from Marvel.   




			
				jonathan swift said:
			
		

> The problems people had with Civil War are numerous. A few big ones are writing characters completely different than how they have been written in the past (evil fascist Stark and Richards?). The fact that the pro-Reg side did absolutely nothing that a "hero" would do and somehow comes out in the end of the fight as having the moral high ground. People are upset because Marvel took their favorite characters and essentially performed character assassination on the whole lot of them in order to tell a not very compelling story that was done just to make a political point. Imagine if you will someone writing a Smurfs movie or something where Papa Smurf ends up joining forces with Gargamel to kill off undesirable Smurfs because they don't fit Papa's agenda and in the end Papa is made out to be the good guy.




I agree. Reading this story it was obvious that long established characters were just totally switched just to fit this ill conceived plot. 

And not only that, it deeply touches every single book outside of Ultimate stuff.  Now every hero is either a gov't stooge or an outlaw.  No thanks.


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## jonathan swift (Mar 8, 2007)

Yeah, my only hope for Marvel now is World War Hulk.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 8, 2007)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Having just read _Civil War: The Initiative_, it's revealed there that Cap isn't dead but is on life support fighting for his life. So much for lasting drama. Kill him and resurrect him in the same frakin' week. Marvel continues to disappoint me in every title except _Moon Knight_.




Marvel's official statement (from Newsarama):



			
				Marvel said:
			
		

> Comments from Ms. Marvel in this week’s Civil War: The Initiative, which seemed to indicate that Captain America is still alive, and being held prisoner by the Pro-Registration forces may not have been exactly what they seemed on the surface, and events related to those comments will play out in upcoming issues of New Avengers.
> 
> So, yes, Captain America, Steve Rogers, is dead."


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## Insight (Mar 8, 2007)

I wonder if Cap's death has anything to do with the fact that Marvel has had trouble getting the Captain America movie off the ground.

In any event, Cap won't stay dead for more than six months.  Either someone else will appear in the uniform and Steve Rogers comes back as something else, or maybe Rogers isn't really dead... or... or... could be anything.  It's the comics, after all.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Mar 8, 2007)

Personally, I hope that Cap stays dead - but not out of comics.

Marvel is brining (the real) Thor back, IIRC, who when last seen had all his powers and all of Odin's (and possibly all of the other Asgardians').  Thor had immense admiration for Captain America, who is also a very suitable Einherjar.  My hope is that Cap's death is what brings Thor (and Asgard) back to earth, that Cap does a turn as a warrior of Asgard, and that he insists on returning to Earth to deal with a threat to America (probably reconciling with Iron Man in the process) and that's what convinces Thor to return to the Marvel mainstream.  

Not that I expect anything a tenth that cool to be what actually happens, but still...


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## jonathan swift (Mar 8, 2007)

For mainstream Marvel to redeem itself, Thor and/or Hulk need to lay the high and mighty smackdown upon all the pro reg supes.


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## WayneLigon (Mar 8, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> CNN.com reports:Captain America is dead.
> 
> Marvel Comics may be dead to me.  I am not sure how I feel about this one...




Marvel has been digging themselves into a hole as far as I'm concerned for some time; the sheer stunnning stupidity of the concept behind Civil War just tops it off for me. Right now, I'm only reading a handful of Marvel books: Runaways, New Avengers and - when it comes out - Young Avengers. I'll be giving Mighty Avengers and Avengers: Initiative a trial run.

I have no idea what has been done with Bucky since his return, but back in the day Bucky used to_ kill people _ when Cap got a hangnail or a scratch. Now, if I had any faith in writers actually, you know, knowing anything about the character they're writing I'd be wondering what sort of bloodbath he'd unleash at this, but he'll probably just do nothing.

Millar, Bendis and the like have produced some great work when they have their own toys in their own sandbox to play with. But you know not to give them someone else's toys or invite them over to your own sandbox, because all you get then is a lot of broken toys.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 8, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Marvel has been digging themselves into a hole as far as I'm concerned for some time; the sheer stunnning stupidity of the concept behind Civil War just tops it off for me.




I think the execution was horribly, horribly flawed, but I've actually gotten past my disgust with that and come to the realization that it isn't a terrible idea in and of itself- the notion of superhero registration, that is. I don't really think I agree with it, either in comicdom or in real life (if there were such things), but I can see the reasoning behind it and how it could create good stories. I just think it should have been given to the hands of a better writer (I haven't liked anything by Millar that I've read), and that editorial had done a better job of things- that they'd done a better job of making sure it kept to schedule, and not had as many slip-ups between different tie-ins. 

I'm against the sort of editorial directive that, IMO, led to the story as constructed (ie, pit Cap and Iron Man against one another, regardless of whether it would have been more in-character for them to be on the same side of the issue, among other things). However, given that it was essentially an editorial-driven event, I think there could have been a better effort to make sure there weren't conflicting stories.

(Then again, what do I know?)



> I have no idea what has been done with Bucky since his return, but back in the day Bucky used to_ kill people _ when Cap got a hangnail or a scratch. Now, if I had any faith in writers actually, you know, knowing anything about the character they're writing I'd be wondering what sort of bloodbath he'd unleash at this, but he'll probably just do nothing.




If you want to know what Bucky (aka, the Winter Soldier) had to do with things:

[sblock]He actually is the one responsible for catching the sniper, having been on hand to try and break Cap free of the law. He very nearly kills the sniper, too, who is one opponent that Cap has always had a tough time taking down himself.[/sblock]

The same writer who brought Bucky back from the dead is the one writing the Cap death story that's going on, and he's gotten some flack in the past from some readers for his depiction of Bucky as having killed soldiers during the war. So he's not one to shy away from the type of story you suggest, I don't think.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 9, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think the execution was horribly, horribly flawed, but I've actually gotten past my disgust with that and come to the realization that it isn't a terrible idea in and of itself- the notion of superhero registration, that is. I don't really think I agree with it, either in comicdom or in real life (if there were such things), but I can see the reasoning behind it and how it could create good stories. I just think it should have been given to the hands of a better writer (I haven't liked anything by Millar that I've read), and that editorial had done a better job of things- that they'd done a better job of making sure it kept to schedule, and not had as many slip-ups between different tie-ins.




I agree, it could be an interesting story.

Too bad they mangled it.

Brad (who thinks that if he has to have a license to drive a car, a super-powered vigilante should have a license, too)


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## Vigilance (Mar 9, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> The same writer who brought Bucky back from the dead is the one writing the Cap death story that's going on, and he's gotten some flack in the past from some readers for his depiction of Bucky as having killed soldiers during the war. So he's not one to shy away from the type of story you suggest, I don't think.




Yeah, Ed Brubaker is a monster. Cap and Bucky killed people during WWII? What awful people they were. Not real heroes at all. 

I actually don't think Cap will turn out to have been killed. My feeling is, as a longtime Cap subscriber and someone who's read every issue of the Brubaker run, is that something else is going on here.

Having worked for a couple of years to make Cap interesting and relevant again, Marvel isn't going to kill him off now.

Just my opinion. Thanks to the mail, my issue hasn't arrived yet so I haven't read it. Thanks Marvel for the spoilers!


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## horacethegrey (Mar 9, 2007)

My brother recently made a comment about all of this. Not just Cap's death, but the entire _Civil War_ thing. Basically, this is all just a setup for Marvel's Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Think about it, the 51st State Initiative is a good setup for an MMOG. You'll have players joining the pro-reg side (meaning that you're deputized by the government like the heroes in City of Heroes), or anti-reg forces (you'll be the outlaws just like in City of Villains). Mutants, however, will be neutral, and may start out at the X-Mansion. 

So what do you all think of this theory? Personally, I think Marvel's pretty callous to muck up their entire universe all for the sake of a stinking online RPG.


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## Pozatronic (Mar 9, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So true.  Him, JMS, and Bendis drove me from Marvel.




That's funny, those are the guys who brought me back to Marvel.
 


For while, I thought Steve Rogers was going to be the mystery guy behind the Ronin mask, but now I'm thinking that it'll be Clint Barton/Hawkeye.

I'm actually pretty excited about what's happening in the Marvel U. They've shaken a lot of things up and I'm optimistic that most of these changes will bring new and exciting stories. I just hope they don't lead to something as bad as the clone saga was. EVERYBODY hated that story. But so far we've got a new ThunderBolts team and a two new Avengers titles, and I'm enjoying all three. And now Cap just made my pull list.

Nobody stays dead in comics, unless you're Barry Allen. Oh, wait a minute, Didn't I just read something about him for Countdown.....


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## Pozatronic (Mar 9, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> My brother recently made a comment about all of this. Not just Cap's death, but the entire _Civil War_ thing. Basically, this is all just a setup for Marvel's Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Think about it, the 51st State Initiative is a good setup for an MMOG. You'll have players joining the pro-reg side (meaning that you're deputized by the government like the heroes in City of Heroes), or anti-reg forces (you'll be the outlaws just like in City of Villains). Mutants, however, will be neutral, and may start out at the X-Mansion.
> 
> So what do you all think of this theory? Personally, I think Marvel's pretty callous to muck up their entire universe all for the sake of a stinking online RPG.




I didn't know we had a 51st state!

About the rest: I really doubt it.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 9, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> My brother recently made a comment about all of this. Not just Cap's death, but the entire _Civil War_ thing. Basically, this is all just a setup for Marvel's Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Think about it, the 51st State Initiative is a good setup for an MMOG. You'll have players joining the pro-reg side (meaning that you're deputized by the government like the heroes in City of Heroes), or anti-reg forces (you'll be the outlaws just like in City of Villains). Mutants, however, will be neutral, and may start out at the X-Mansion.
> 
> So what do you all think of this theory? Personally, I think Marvel's pretty callous to muck up their entire universe all for the sake of a stinking online RPG.




I seriously hope your wrong since if Marvel wanted to do a MMORG they could have easily created one without doing the whole Civil War thing.  For instance... they could have made an intergalactic evil empire or a supervillian organization...  Although.. I can see how people might scream "blantant rip off" if they did so...

_...political comment removed..._


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## horacethegrey (Mar 9, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> I seriously hope your wrong since if Marvel wanted to do a MMORG they could have easily created one without doing the whole Civil War thing.  For instance... they could have made an intergalactic evil empire or a supervillian organization...  Although.. I can see how people might scream "blantant rip off" if they did so...



As I said, this is just a theory my brother had, and I'm taking it with a grain of salt. If you want, the Marvel MMOG (called _Marvel Universe Online_) comes out sometime this year, so you can check it out if this scenario comes to pass. My bro is right excited by this, and plans an upgrade for our PC just so he can join this game. :\ 

As for myself, after all this _Civil Crap_ debacle, I've lost interest in any of Marvel's books. The only thing I'll be interested of theirs will be their movies. _Spider-Man 3_ and _Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer_ are on top of my viewing list this year. And despite being such an ass through the whole of CW, I'm looking forward to _Iron Man's _ big screen debut next year. 

EDIT: My mistake, it should have the 50 State Initiative. Apologies for my limited geographical knowledge.


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## kroh (Mar 9, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> My brother recently made a comment about all of this. Not just Cap's death, but the entire _Civil War_ thing. Basically, this is all just a setup for Marvel's Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Think about it, the 51st State Initiative is a good setup for an MMOG. You'll have players joining the pro-reg side (meaning that you're deputized by the government like the heroes in City of Heroes), or anti-reg forces (you'll be the outlaws just like in City of Villains). Mutants, however, will be neutral, and may start out at the X-Mansion.
> 
> So what do you all think of this theory? Personally, I think Marvel's pretty callous to muck up their entire universe all for the sake of a stinking online RPG.




Interesting Theory...Got anything to back it up?

Regards, 
Walt


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 9, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Right now, I'm only reading a handful of Marvel books: Runaways, New Avengers and - when it comes out - Young Avengers. I'll be giving Mighty Avengers and Avengers: Initiative a trial run.




I don't have much more to say on the Civil War story, but I did want to give another shout out to Runaways, which is a _great_ comic.

It seems to me that the general decline at Marvel, aside from the shrinking interest in comics, is mostly the fault of the management, and not the writers.  There will always be crappy writers and good writers, but poor management will make anything it touches awful.


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## Vigilance (Mar 9, 2007)

Well given the horrid state of affairs at Marvel when the current administration took over, I think it would be hard to fault what they've done from a business point of view.

Civil War was a PHENOMENALLY successful comic through every single issue as well, so it's hard to say (again from strictly a business sense) that it was a bad idea. Every issue sold over 100,000 from what I've heard. 

Creatively of course we each judge for ourselves. 

For myself, event comics don't bother me as much as they used to because of tradebacks. I passed on Civil War but I will be getting the trades. Only a few comics are worth the trouble to me to seek out month to month (Astonishing X-Men and Cap).

In fact, the only irksome thing about Civil War to me was the lateness, since it meant I ended up going a couple of months without an issue of Cap.


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## Sir Elton (Mar 9, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> This is exactly what worries me.
> 
> Today's comics are _full_ of characters who are willing to perform small evils to fight greater ones; characters for whom the ends justify the means.
> 
> Cap is one of the last, rare few who actually stand for the "hero" part of superhero. Comic books need _more_ like him (and Spidey, and Superman), not fewer.




Ari,

Spider-man goes bad.



			
				Marvel Wiki said:
			
		

> Spider-Man disappears after the battle and makes his way to the motel room where he, Mary Jane, and Aunt May live in. As he is welcomed by his loved ones, his spider-sense rings and he quickly hits the floor with Mary Jane. Unfortunately, in the act of saving one, he has lost the other, and Aunt May is shown bleeding from the left chest, indicating a fatal wound.
> 
> The Civil War wraps up with a majority of the Secret Avengers accepting the general amnesty given. However, some have opted to move to Canada while others join an underground rebellion against the Superhero Initiative, which appears to be headed by Spider-Man and Luke Cage. They are last seen with Cage complementing Spidey's suit, and we are shown the inevitable truth: Spider-Man is back in black.


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## Vigilance (Mar 9, 2007)

Im not sure what about the wiki passage you quote equates to "going bad".

He's against forced superhero registration and he wasn't able to save Aunt May. Sounds like good (okay, Chaotic Good maybe, but still Good) and not being Madrox to me.


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## FunkBGR (Mar 9, 2007)

Hey - 

Anything, and I mean *ANYTHING* that causes more people to buy comics is good in my book. They'll buy, and they'll judge. And then if they like, they'll buy more, or they might buy another series.

That's good - so I'm glad Marvel put the spin on it so that CNN and places picked it up.


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## Agamon (Mar 9, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> So what do you all think of this theory? Personally, I think Marvel's pretty callous to muck up their entire universe all for the sake of a stinking online RPG.




Oh man, if that's true...callous doesn't describe it.


----------



## Matchstick (Mar 9, 2007)

jonathan swift said:
			
		

> Yeah, my only hope for Marvel now is World War Hulk.




Gee, what do you suppose Marvel could use to pull all the heroes back together?  I know, maybe a threat to the earth from outer space!  

The heroes pull together during World War Hulk and afterward a grateful nation recinds the registration act.

That's my prediction.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 9, 2007)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> Gee, what do you suppose Marvel could use to pull all the heroes back together?  I know, maybe a threat to the earth from outer space!
> 
> The heroes pull together during World War Hulk and afterward a grateful nation recinds the registration act.
> 
> That's my prediction.




D00d, Iron Man and Reed Richards jettisoned the Hulk through a wormhole.

When he comes back I don't think that theyre going to be singing kumbaiya (sp?). 

Especially when She-Hulk finds out. 

I'm thinking World War Hulk is only going to reinforce the Pro-Reg point. Especially when Hulk discovers what went down in his absence, he's gonna try to pull Stark out of that armor through that smallest opening available.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 9, 2007)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> Gee, what do you suppose Marvel could use to pull all the heroes back together?  I know, maybe a threat to the earth from outer space!
> 
> The heroes pull together during World War Hulk and afterward a grateful nation recinds the registration act.
> 
> That's my prediction.




I thought that at first, but I'm really starting to get the impression that Civil War is Marvel's "Crisis on Infinite Earths". In other words, they've set some things in motion that will be felt for years.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 9, 2007)

Pozatronic said:
			
		

> Nobody stays dead in comics, unless you're Bart Allen.




I think you mean Barry Allen. Bart is the current Flash, Barry's grandson (also formerly known as Impulse and Kid Flash).

Barry's come back a couple of times since his death, but Marv Wolfman had built in a backdoor for him from day one of his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths (time travel, which is how Marvel recently -ugh- brought back Captain Marvel). 

As to rumors of Barry's return, the verdict is still out, but Dan Didio is on record as to saying his slip about Barry being the Flash on the previews for Countdown may not be quite what people think (some of the pictures on that preview have been described as symbolic, not literal).

They still haven't brought back Uncle Ben (well, an alternate universe version of him, but not the real thing). Or the real Gwen Stacy (a clone, yes.)


----------



## kroh (Mar 9, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I'm thinking World War Hulk is only going to reinforce the Pro-Reg point. Especially when Hulk discovers what went down in his absence, he's gonna try to pull Stark out of that armor through that smallest opening available.





Yup... Funniest thing I have heard all day.

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## jonathan swift (Mar 9, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> D00d, Iron Man and Reed Richards jettisoned the Hulk through a wormhole.
> 
> When he comes back I don't think that theyre going to be singing kumbaiya (sp?).
> 
> ...




WWH might reinforce the pro-reg point, but that's not going to matter if Hulk Smash! all the pro-reg supers into so much gorey scenery.


----------



## Matchstick (Mar 9, 2007)

jonathan swift said:
			
		

> WWH might reinforce the pro-reg point, but that's not going to matter if Hulk Smash! all the pro-reg supers into so much gorey scenery.




Right.  It might be that Hulk will redisign the Iron Man armor into something that you set and forget, but I suspect that at some point he'll become less than discriminating in his destruction.  

The Hulk isn't subtle, his rage will almost certainly put innocents at risk, and that's not something that either side of the registration debate will stand idly by and watch.  Heck, it's more than possible that the heroes on either side won't stand idly by and watch ANY lives be endangered without springing into action.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Hulk will be the common enemy, and the common ground bringing the sides back together.

All speculation of course.





> I'm thinking World War Hulk is only going to reinforce the Pro-Reg point. Especially when Hulk discovers what went down in his absence, he's gonna try to pull Stark out of that armor through that smallest opening available.




I'm not totally sure I follow.  If I'm understanding this right, I'm not sure that there are many people that would consider the Hulk a hero, so I'm not sure how he could push the pro-reg point.  Keeping in mind that I have no idea where the Hulk's intellectual level currently sits.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Mar 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Marvel Wiki
> Spider-Man disappears after the battle and makes his way to the motel room where he, Mary Jane, and Aunt May live in. As he is welcomed by his loved ones, his spider-sense rings and he quickly hits the floor with Mary Jane. Unfortunately, in the act of saving one, he has lost the other, and Aunt May is shown bleeding from the left chest, indicating a fatal wound.
> 
> The Civil War wraps up with a majority of the Secret Avengers accepting the general amnesty given. However, some have opted to move to Canada while others join an underground rebellion against the Superhero Initiative, which appears to be headed by Spider-Man and Luke Cage. They are last seen with Cage complementing Spidey's suit, and we are shown the inevitable truth: Spider-Man is back in black.




I haven't read marvel in a while, but didn't Aunt May die years ago.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog (Mar 9, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I haven't read marvel in a while, but didn't Aunt May die years ago.




She got better.


----------



## Sir Elton (Mar 9, 2007)

I think Ronin of the New Avengers is actually Steve Rogers.

Elton.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 9, 2007)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> I'm not totally sure I follow.  If I'm understanding this right, I'm not sure that there are many people that would consider the Hulk a hero, so I'm not sure how he could push the pro-reg point.  Keeping in mind that I have no idea where the Hulk's intellectual level currently sits.




My point is this: 

When the Hulk returns to earth if he's

A) Rampaging crazy hulk then he's going to go into his break stuff routine, thus reinforcing the Pro-Reg side that people with powers need to be registered or contained. 

B) He comes back as Banner/Hulk hybrid and is STILL PISSED that his supposed friends tricked him into space then jettisoned him through a wormhole. Even as Banner, he's still gonna be looking to get even. Unfortunately the people he's gonna be looking to get even with are on, and in Tony's case leading, the Pro Reg side.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 9, 2007)

Matchstick said:
			
		

> Right.  It might be that Hulk will redisign the Iron Man armor into something that you set and forget, but I suspect that at some point he'll become less than discriminating in his destruction.
> 
> The Hulk isn't subtle, his rage will almost certainly put innocents at risk, and that's not something that either side of the registration debate will stand idly by and watch.  Heck, it's more than possible that the heroes on either side won't stand idly by and watch ANY lives be endangered without springing into action.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Hulk will be the common enemy, and the common ground bringing the sides back together.
> 
> ...



 Currently, the Hulk's intelligence is pretty good. He's not a Banner-level genius, but he has an instinctual feeling for fighting and commanding. Plus now he's a king and a husband!

I eagerly await World War Hulk, but the simple fact that one of the first announced issues is Hulk going after Professor X (who had nothing to do with the betrayal) makes me lose faith a bit.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 10, 2007)

Professor X definitely DID have something to do with what happened to Hulk.

Prof X is a member of the "illuminati", the secret society of marvel movers and shakers that came up with the plan to put Hulk into space.

Illuminati is Iron Man, Prof X, Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt and Namor.


----------



## Pozatronic (Mar 10, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think you mean Barry Allen.





Yeah. That's exactly what I wrote.


----------



## Welverin (Mar 10, 2007)

Could you _please_ not put spoilers in the subject?


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 10, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Could you _please_ not put spoilers in the subject?




Lol. Well given that it's on Marvel's front page, every comics news site, and arrived in my email (in the subject header no less!) since I subscribed to Marvel's newsletter the original poster prolly figured like I did, that it wasnt a spoiler.

And again, NO WAY this is really him.

Are folks this naive? Marvel brought in an A-list writer, relaunched Cap's title, put an A-list art hotshot on it, AND made him one of the focal points of their big event, all to make Steve Rogers, Captain America, relevant again.

And it worked.

And NOW they're going to kill him?

Have you guys never read a comic before? This is how the game is played.

BRUCE WAYNE, MURDERER. Shocking!


----------



## Pozatronic (Mar 10, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> EDIT: My mistake, it should have the 50 State Initiative. Apologies for my limited geographical knowledge.





No problem. Somebody caught on to my goofaw on one of my earlier posts. It's fun to laugh at ourselves; although not as much fun as laughing at other people.

Did anybody get the Civil War:Initiative one-shot? It's got this little comment from Pro-Reg's own Ms. Marvel: "He's not [dead]."..."He's tucked away safe on the raft. No one knows. NO ONE. They're trying to save his life even as we speak." 

Hmmmm.....


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 10, 2007)

^^^ Wow. What a shock.

You mean they didn't relaunch his title, put an A-list writer/artist combo on it, and make Cap the focal point of their big event of 2006 just so they could kill him? 

I'm shocked. Shocked I say!


----------



## Silver Moon (Mar 10, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> ...the 50 State Initiative.



Yeah, brilliant idea.   I can't wait to see the superhero teams protecting North Dakota and Idaho.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 10, 2007)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Yeah, brilliant idea.   I can't wait to see the superhero teams protecting North Dakota and Idaho.




Frogman, Boom Boom, Peeper, El Aguila and Lockheed.

Lockheed will be the team leader.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 10, 2007)

You know...  watching a super hero lottery draft would be sort of cool, especially if a place like North Dakota or Idaho would have ended up getting first choice and ended up picking the Avengers ("Sorry Tony, but you're moving to Boise.  I don't care if SHIELD is based in NYC, you promoted this initiative, so you have no choice but to comply").. 

 Unfortunately, the Avengers ended up in New York... but one can dream, can't they?


Just wondering, did Marvel ever mention how Superheroes were distributed in the US prior to the 50 state initiative taking affect?


----------



## Klaus (Mar 10, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Professor X definitely DID have something to do with what happened to Hulk.
> 
> Prof X is a member of the "illuminati", the secret society of marvel movers and shakers that came up with the plan to put Hulk into space.
> 
> Illuminati is Iron Man, Prof X, Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt and Namor.



 Yeah, but if I recall the tape from the pod that sent Banner to space, only Dr. Strange, Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Black Bolt appeared.


----------



## Umbran (Mar 10, 2007)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see the superhero teams protecting North Dakota and Idaho.




Hey, the Great Lakes Avengers were cool!  I'm sure the Potato State Avengers can avoid complete lameness...


----------



## Felon (Mar 10, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Yeah, but if I recall the tape from the pod that sent Banner to space, only Dr. Strange, Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Black Bolt appeared.




Right, but isn't Mastermind Excello one of Hulk's little buddies? He will probably fill him in on all the details.


----------



## Umbran (Mar 10, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Could you _please_ not put spoilers in the subject?




It was on CNN.com, and apparently the cover of the comic.  There's a point in public information where "spoiler" really doesn't apply any more - and when the national news services are carrying it, I think we're beyond that point.


----------



## Silver Moon (Mar 10, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Just wondering, did Marvel ever mention how Superheroes were distributed in the US prior to the 50 state initiative taking affect?



Pretty much 99% New York City.   Every now and then you'll have a hero in another city (usually the one the writer is from) but those are rare exceptions.    In the Civil War panel on the 50 state initiative they featured Texas, as it was one of the few states that had featured a hero or two.


----------



## Silver Moon (Mar 10, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Hey, the Great Lakes Avengers were cool!



Beyond cool, but that was at the hands of the two comedy masters of Comics, our She-Hulk writers past and present.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> I'm sure the Potato State Avengers can avoid complete lameness...



On a related note, my wife and I wrote a RPGA Marvel Superheroes module a decade ago featuring a team of New Hampshire superheroes   (The Moose, Old Man of the Mountain, Seacoast Speedster, Autumn, Bow Master and Syrup Boy) and PirateCat has been running modules with his Boston Beacon team for years!


----------



## Richards (Mar 11, 2007)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Yeah, brilliant idea.   I can't wait to see the superhero teams protecting North Dakota and Idaho.



Don't make fun of North Dakota, man - they've got nukes!

Johnathan


----------



## Pozatronic (Mar 11, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Frogman, Boom Boom, Peeper, El Aguila and Lockheed.
> 
> Lockheed will be the team leader.




Actually, Boom Boom a/k/a Timebomb (I think) was a member of Nextwave. I'm not sure what the official continuity is on this, but I'm pretty sure Aaron Stack/Machine Man and Photon (both members and both former Avengers) were seen somewhere in Civil War. Nextwave is canceled, which is a shame, because it was a pretty damn good comic. 

Also, I think El Aguila's awesome.


----------



## Sir Elton (Mar 11, 2007)

I wonder what Utah's Avengers are going to be?  Power Pack? They're mormons, you know.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 11, 2007)

Sir Elton said:
			
		

> I wonder what Utah's Avengers are going to be?  Power Pack? They're mormons, you know.



You're making it way too easy for punchlines.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 11, 2007)

Sir Elton said:
			
		

> I wonder what Utah's Avengers are going to be?  Power Pack? They're mormons, you know.




Latterday Saints Paladins


----------



## ssampier (Mar 11, 2007)

Well, on South Park episode of the Super Best Friends, Joseph Smith had powers of ice (for some reason).


----------



## Plane Sailing (Mar 11, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think the execution was horribly, horribly flawed, but I've actually gotten past my disgust with that and come to the realization that it isn't a terrible idea in and of itself- the notion of superhero registration, that is. I don't really think I agree with it, either in comicdom or in real life (if there were such things), but I can see the reasoning behind it and how it could create good stories.




In some ways, is this just a logical expansion and retread of the various 'mutant registration' storylines that have been around at Marvel for decades, just with wider applicability?

(I've not read any marvel comics in years and years, so I may be way off base here, naturally!)


----------



## frankthedm (Mar 11, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I'm thinking World War Hulk is only going to reinforce the Pro-Reg point. Especially when Hulk discovers what went down in his absence, he's gonna try to pull Stark out of that armor through that smallest opening available.



 Go Hulk Go!


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 11, 2007)

A pretty good brief radio bit on Cap's death, including a brief (and touching) interview with Joe Simon, Cap's creator. Recommended, as it certainly gave me a different perspective on the story: On The Media: Death to America


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 11, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> In some ways, is this just a logical expansion and retread of the various 'mutant registration' storylines that have been around at Marvel for decades, just with wider applicability?




Yes, though they didn't really touch on that much. There was even a similar movement for superhero registration that went around briefly during the Acts of Vengeance storyline many years ago (oddly enough Reed Richards was in opposition to it at the time, despite being in favor of it this time. The Thinker was also in opposition, but appeared to switch his view when Reed presented him with some mathematical formulas that showed how registration was the only real option.)


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 11, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Yes, though they didn't really touch on that much. There was even a similar movement for superhero registration that went around briefly during the Acts of Vengeance storyline many years ago (oddly enough Reed Richards was in opposition to it at the time, despite being in favor of it this time. The Thinker was also in opposition, but appeared to switch his view when Reed presented him with some mathematical formulas that showed how registration was the only real option.)





But you also have to consider the events in the world when those story-lines originally were created.  Back then most Americans (and 'westerners' in general) believed that there is no way in hell that any democratic government could get away with creating such a harsh registration law (that infringes on civil liberties and is almost akin to racial profiling) and actually be able to have it pass into legislation.  Unfortunately, times have changed so much that such a story could be viewed as being plausable and not just part of a setting's flavor.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 12, 2007)

Am I the only one who thinks this is what they were planning to instigate the Marvel version of the second American Revolution?  When it all boils down Cap was the living personification of what America was supposed to be.  I can't see killing(regardless of who actually did it) him ending in anything but a general uprising and washington looking like the Appian Way after the Spartacus rebellion was crushed.


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> But you also have to consider the events in the world when those story-lines originally were created.  Back then most Americans (and 'westerners' in general) believed that there is no way in hell that any democratic government could get away with creating such a harsh registration law (that infringes on civil liberties and is almost akin to racial profiling) and actually be able to have it pass into legislation.  Unfortunately, times have changed so much that such a story could be viewed as being plausable and not just part of a setting's flavor.




Think so, huh?

I dunno, if there were human atom bombs running around, I think the government would seek regulation, and the American public would likely support them. Most folks are much more concerned about protecting their kids than some lofty ideal, like the civil liberties of people who might be a danger to their kids. 

Now, having said that, the government would certainly have to face the reality of all the arch-villains running around trying to throw over the world. It's just not that good an idea to crush their most effective defense against them. That's the part I find hard to swallow.


----------



## Falkus (Mar 12, 2007)

> But you also have to consider the events in the world when those story-lines originally were created. Back then most Americans (and 'westerners' in general) believed that there is no way in hell that any democratic government could get away with creating such a harsh registration law (that infringes on civil liberties and is almost akin to racial profiling) and actually be able to have it pass into legislation. Unfortunately, times have changed so much that such a story could be viewed as being plausable and not just part of a setting's flavor.




I honestly don't think that there's been any point in the last century in which a clear majority of the American people believed that the police force should not be responsible to anyone. Because, essentially, that's a vigilante superhero is. A police officer who doesn't have to answer for his actions.

That's what I've never liked about most comics. Superheros should work for the government, that's what police forces do. Not only does it give them the legal right to arrest villains, but they also get a vast, agency apparatus to back them up in their various investigations into said villains, rather than having to go it alone.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 12, 2007)

Falkus said:
			
		

> I honestly don't think that there's been any point in the last century in which a clear majority of the American people believed that the police force should not be responsible to anyone. Because, essentially, that's a vigilante superhero is. A police officer who doesn't have to answer for his actions.
> 
> That's what I've never liked about most comics. Superheros should work for the government, that's what police forces do. Not only does it give them the legal right to arrest villains, but they also get a vast, agency apparatus to back them up in their various investigations into said villains, rather than having to go it alone.



 That's a great premise for a comic book. But when you apply it to your entire line, it becomes stifled.

IMHO, a publisher has to offer a gamut of books, ranging from the serious, reality-based ones to the carefree, fun stuff.


----------



## Shalimar (Mar 12, 2007)

My problem with it isn't because of the licenses, its because of the fact that anyone with even the slightest super power must register else they will be locked up indefinitely in another dimension that actually drives people in it insane.  No trial, no appeal, do whatever we say or we will disappear you.  That and once supers are registered they can and will be drafted into doing whatever IronHitler wants.

Looking at what he did to the Hulk, and was doing in the negative zone, I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he had been the one to give the power up to Nitro to set off the Stamford incident and get the SHRA rolling in the first place.  Iron Man just flat out isn't a hero, his actions speak for him regardless of what he says, and the more Joe Q/Tom B and everyone at Marvel insissts he is a hero the more out of touch with reality I think they are.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 12, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> But you also have to consider the events in the world when those story-lines originally were created.  Back then most Americans (and 'westerners' in general) believed that there is no way in hell that any democratic government could get away with creating such a harsh registration law (that infringes on civil liberties and is almost akin to racial profiling) and actually be able to have it pass into legislation.  Unfortunately, times have changed so much that such a story could be viewed as being plausable and not just part of a setting's flavor.




In the Real World, yes, but not in the Marvel world, where events on the scale of 9/11 happen all the time.

I'm not saying that there's not a story there, and that interesting things can't be done with it, but there could have been more plausibility behind it. For instance, something on this scale would have been more appropriately in character in the MU's reality after, say the Kang War, as opposed to the "Stamford Massacre".


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Falkus said:
			
		

> I honestly don't think that there's been any point in the last century in which a clear majority of the American people believed that the police force should not be responsible to anyone. Because, essentially, that's a vigilante superhero is. A police officer who doesn't have to answer for his actions.




Forget throwing fireballs and punching people through buildings, are there even any places left in the U.S. where it's not illegal to wear a mask in public on any day other than Halloween?


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> My problem with it isn't because of the licenses, its because of the fact that anyone with even the slightest super power must register else they will be locked up indefinitely in another dimension that actually drives people in it insane.  No trial, no appeal, do whatever we say or we will disappear you.  That and once supers are registered they can and will be drafted into doing whatever IronHitler wants.




Well, remember, that's supposed to mirror real-world events involving the Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay, where real-life people have been "disappeared" to.

As to Iron Man and Richards indulging in this kind of behavior, I'm afraid that's part of the flaw with the Civil War. It was initially set up as a conflict that gave each side some merit. The Negative Zone prison thing is an attempt to turn the pro-reg crowd into a straw man, so ultimately there's a clear bad guy. Kind of like Minority Report. The premise of "future crime prevention" had real merit, so they had to tack on the inhumane "halo" punishment to taint it. even though the two were unrelated methodologies. We could hardly sit and root for Tom Cruise to destroy the system if it's a system we approve of, after all.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 12, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> That's a great premise for a comic book. But when you apply it to your entire line, it becomes stifled.
> 
> IMHO, a publisher has to offer a gamut of books, ranging from the serious, reality-based ones to the carefree, fun stuff.




Exactly.


----------



## Shalimar (Mar 12, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, remember, that's supposed to mirror real-world events involving the Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay, where real-life people have been "disappeared" to.
> 
> As to Iron Man and Richards indulging in this kind of behavior, I'm afraid that's part of the flaw with the Civil War. It was initially set up as a conflict that gave each side some merit. The Negative Zone prison thing is an attempt to turn the pro-reg crowd into a straw man, so ultimately there's a clear bad guy. Kind of like Minority Report. The premise of "future crime prevention" had real merit, so they had to tack on the inhumane "halo" punishment to taint it. even though the two were unrelated methodologies. We could hardly sit and root for Tom Cruise to destroy the system if it's a system we approve of, after all.




Except for the fact that the writers/editors have flat out said that Iron Man was right and has done nothing wrong I would agree with you.  I'm actually happy about World War Hulk for the off chance that big green gets to kill Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Professor X.  The three of them deserve it since you just know they wont be tried an executed for mass murder for their actions in Planet Hulk and Civil War.  I don't really understand why they are taking heroes and making them retroactively evil.


----------



## Umbran (Mar 12, 2007)

Folks,

Please remember that these forums have a directive against discussing real-world politics and religion.


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> I'm actually happy about World War Hulk for the off chance that big green gets to kill Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Professor X.  The three of them deserve it since you just know they wont be tried an executed for mass murder for their actions in Planet Hulk and Civil War.  I don't really understand why they are taking heroes and making them retroactively evil.




What did Prof. X do? He wasn't involved with the Hulk conspiracy and he was neutral in the Civil War. 

As far as the Hulk goes, he's certainly an incredibly dangerous creature, who's been offered plenty of second chances. There is only one way to deal with a mad dog...


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 12, 2007)

Professor X is part of the Illuminati. It was their plan to jettison Hulk off-planet. 

Given that this little group has done way more harm than good, it wouldn't break my heart to see them taken down a peg.


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Professor X is part of the Illuminati. It was their plan to jettison Hulk off-planet.




No, it was the plan of a few members of the Illuminati to send the Hulk into space. The Illuminati is just a loosely-organized informal think tank, after all. They rarely meet at all, and even more rarely with full consensus. The Professor was not involved, and Namor actually got pretty PO"ed about the whole idea.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 12, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Professor X is part of the Illuminati. It was their plan to jettison Hulk off-planet.
> 
> Given that this little group has done way more harm than good, it wouldn't break my heart to see them taken down a peg.



 But Professor X, as far as we know, had no part in the decision. It's a pretty thin excuse to put the X-Men in Hulk's crosshairs...


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Just checked. The Hulk plan took place after House of M, so Prof. X was definitely unavailable. It was just Richards, Stark, Strange, and Namor at that little meeting.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> But Professor X, as far as we know, had no part in the decision. It's a pretty thin excuse to put the X-Men in Hulk's crosshairs...




It's the freaking HULK!

Do you think he's going to go through a sober, intellectual process to select his targets?

I mean... this is the second time you've basically said this, so you really think Hulk's going to sit down, FBI style, with a big chart with pictures.

Then his lead investigator will say "Sir, according to our sources, this 5-member group banished you from Earth, but THIS guy, the bald one, we have no proof he was responsible."

Hulk strokes his goatee thoughtfully, "Well, you know what a big believer I am in due process. We'll leave him alone, since we have no proof he was involved. Better safe than sorry."

Cmon guys. Hulk. Smash. He's not going to be using smart bombs to make sure he ONLY gets the people MOST responsible.

He's mad as hell, and he's going to get those guys. 

Who are those guys? Dunno, don't care.

It's WORLD WAR HULK.

Not "Hulk soberly chooses targets"

You think with a title starting with the words WORLD and WAR that there might be some innocent blood shed?

No?!?!?! Hulk? Shed innocent blood?

I mean, the whole world wasn't responsible for what happened to him.

But somebody's gonna pay.

And you know what? He's Hulk. Why not a LOT of somebody's.

Wanna make an omelet? Break a few eggs.


----------



## Shalimar (Mar 13, 2007)

I was lumping Professor X in for his retroactive super dickery in the Deadly Genisis affair, not specifically for the Hulk thing.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 13, 2007)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> When it all boils down Cap was the living personification of what America was supposed to be.



Yes, and that time have already passed.

Hail our new superhero, the champion of corporations and capitalism, _Iron Man._ 

(Stark International will make Haliburton looks like a street vendor.)


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## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Yes, and that time have already passed.
> 
> Hail our new superhero, the champion of corporations and capitalism, _Iron Man._
> 
> (Stark International will make Haliburton looks like a street vendor.)




Except that Cap isn't dead. The only mention of him even BEING dead in Cap #25 comes from a news anchor. On Marvel.com it's reported by the Daily Bugle. 

I say again: Marvel relaunched Cap's title; they put an A-List writer and A-list artist on it; it became a top seller; Cap starred in the big event crossover of 2006; Cap finally, for maybe the first time in a few decades, matters again in the Marvel U.

Kill him now? 

Has NO ONE on these boards read a freaking comic before? This is the start of a big Cap run that they wanted max publicity for. 

That is all.

Cap is not dead. CNN can stop drawing their lame political parallels and making 94 year old Cap co-creator Joe Simon cry any second now.

He is not dead.


----------



## Quasqueton (Mar 13, 2007)

I'd appreciate anyone who reads the books to post here when Cap is officially seen/revealed to be alive "again". I've got a bunch of people at work to tell, "See, I told ya."

Even if it happens months from now. I'm bookmarking this thread to revisit for this info.

Thanks, in advance.

Quasqueton


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

I saw Cap hanging out with Elvis.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, as a subscriber, I got a notice this month that my subscription would continue with the 5-issue mini "Fallen Son", which is about the reactions of the Marvel Universe to Cap's "death", with each issue being one of the stages of grief, so issue #1 is "denial". 

Sigh. 

But again, he wasn't even shown to have "died" in Issue #25. Though I guess it's not a "big media event" if they don't milk it.

I mean, how long was Superman "dead"... bout a year? This *might* last that long, though I doubt it. Brubaker is on record in an interview I read stating that "Issue 25 will be the biggest single issue I write with Cap and will set up my next year on the book".


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 13, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Brubaker is on record in an interview I read stating that "Issue 25 will be the biggest single issue I write with Cap and will set up my next year on the book".




He's also said he has that entire year planned out WITHOUT Cap.

Brubaker has said he was planning to kill Cap during his run anyway, just the Civil War events worked well with things and he pushed it forward. So, for the forseeable future, Cap is, indeed, dead.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> He's also said he has that entire year planned out WITHOUT Cap.
> 
> Brubaker has said he was planning to kill Cap during his run anyway, just the Civil War events worked well with things and he pushed it forward. So, for the forseeable future, Cap is, indeed, dead.




Uh-huh.

Brubaker has also said that you have to sell a comic death to make it seem as real as possible, citing the fact that he "killed" the Red Skull and "killed" Foggy Nelson as proof that you can sell a totally fake death. 

Again, color me skeptical. Ive read comics before.

He might stay dead a whole year. I might buy that.

I mean, Superman was dead about a year. 

But they are not going to kill him. They just aren't. Anymore than DC is going to kill superman.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 13, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> He's also said he has that entire year planned out WITHOUT Cap.
> 
> Brubaker has said he was planning to kill Cap during his run anyway, just the Civil War events worked well with things and he pushed it forward. So, for the forseeable future, Cap is, indeed, dead.




Like Superman at the hands of the nigh unstoppable Doomsday. 

Naturally its a publicity stunt but in the Marvel comics, Tony Stark and his side might use the death to break the spirits of those who resist the registration. "See what happens? My best friend died!" or some other equally absurd excuse milked for the sympathy vote. Nevermind that Tony and Steve didn't see eye to eye on lots of things like the Vault attack during the Armor Wars.

Was there a body? Was it really him and not an LMD, a clone, someone plastic surgeried to look like Cap or even a Skrull?

Somehow it'd be something like Dr Strange cast a spell to make everyone think Cap died and zapped him away in some weird 'second gunman on the grass knoll' conspiracy. I'm sure he's not dead but when he comes back, I don't think he'll be all that happy.

C'mon Hulk! Make Stark pay for killing off your old foe Gremlin!


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> Was there a body? Was it really him and not an LMD, a clone, someone plastic surgeried to look like Cap or even a Skrull?




His eyes are still open at the end of Cap #25 lol.

The last panel is a close-up of his hand dropping off the bed. 

Also, at the time he was shot, Nick Fury was about to launch a plan to see to it Cap never spent a day in jail.

Though the assassination attempt was not part of his plan.

Again, by comic standards this is as fuzzy as it gets.

Now the book goes on a hiatus while we do the "Fallen Son" mini, in which different characters ponder on what Cap MEANS to the Marvel U.

Ok, ho-hum.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 13, 2007)

I got it!

Cap is laying low and when the Dems and Reps declare their candidates for the '08 election, Steve Rogers jumps in as the third party and wins like Lex Luthor did in DC. One of his first acts of office: pardon all those involved in Civil War aka ctrl-alt-del everything.

Yeah, and Donald Trump will let his head get shaved too.

But it might not be so bad. Stephen Colbert got Cap's shield.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 13, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Except that Cap isn't dead. The only mention of him even BEING dead in Cap #25 comes from a news anchor. On Marvel.com it's reported by the Daily Bugle.
> 
> I say again: Marvel relaunched Cap's title; they put an A-List writer and A-list artist on it; it became a top seller; Cap starred in the big event crossover of 2006; Cap finally, for maybe the first time in a few decades, matters again in the Marvel U.
> 
> ...



So, we're going to have a reality game show called, _Who Wants to be Captain America?_

I better send in my audition tape.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> So, we're going to have a reality game show called, _Who Wants to be Captain America?_
> 
> I better send in my audition tape.




No, I'm saying there is absolutely no way in hell that Steve Rogers is dead. 

Look, if you follow Marvel closely like I do, when Quesada took over as EIC the company was basically in shambles, not only sales-wise but creatively. According to things I've read, he thought job #1 was getting Spider-Man and the X-books back on their feet.

Then what the company set their sights to was fixing the Avengers books, both the team title but also the solo components, particularly Iron Man and Cap. 

Now they've finally DONE that. This strategy was part of the reason Cap and Iron Man have both been relaunched recently (within the last couple years or so), the reason the Avengers was blown up and relaunched, and the reason Cap and Iron Man were the stars of the big event book of last year.

So all this has worked. Cap and Iron Man are hot again. Their books are edgy. The last time you could say that about Iron Man was what, the 80's? Demon in a Bottle maybe?

Captain America you have to go back to the 70's. Probably when Steranko was drawing the book. 

So for the first time in 20-30 years two of their icons are back on top. 

Just strictly from a business sense, I will not buy that they kill Steve Rogers now. Folks have said they might want Cap to be "edgier". Well Brubaker's already accomplished that.

There's no upside in killing him.

There *IS* upside in a "Death of Superman" type arc where you take the character away just long enough for folks to miss him. That I might buy.

But from a business standpoint there's no way this happens. 

From a creative standpoint, I have heard Brubaker go on and on about how much he loves Steve Rogers and Captain America. 

I mean hell, Brubaker has the freaking INVADERS in this book. He isn't a guy who want to blow up the book and start over. 

And then strictly from a comics standpoint, there is absolutely no way this counts even as a comics death (which of course are nearly always reversed anyway).


----------



## Felon (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm surprised there's all this emphasis on Steve Rogers being alive.

How about Steve Rogers is dead, long live Captain America? The man dies, but the dream lives on? You know, Cap was born in the Great Depression, something some of our grandfathers can't even say. For a character that's supposed to quintessentially human, that's just getting harder to buy into. A new reader comes into comics and says something like "so, Captain America, he's like immortal or something?", to which the veteran has to explain, "nah, he's human, but he's been bobbing around in an iceberg for the last...(mentally calculates) fifty years now, I guess".

Maybe it's just time for the mantle to pass on. Humans are mortal. They have to pass on their legacies for them to endure. Maybe instead of a walking piece of nostalgia from a war that's history to most of us, we now get a Cap that's actually a part of this century: a fireman who survived the World Trade Center attack, a soldier that served in Iraq, and so forth. 

(sure hope my mere mentioning of events that happened in the real-world doesn't constitute "political discussion" by some bizarre twist of logic...)


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

Right but that history is part of what makes Cap a great character. It's part of what makes him special. 

Most comic characters' pasts are fluid. Folks forget, mostly because Marvel has happily let these facts slide into obscurity, but at one time Reed Richards and Ben Grimm were WWII veterans.

But Cap has a period of time no one can take away from him, and that's an integral part of the character. His origin doesn't always take place "ten years ago". 

Characters like Punisher and Iron Man have had some rocky periods primarily because they were also rooted historically, to time periods that don't really resonate with readers anymore.

Iron Man was the ultimate Cold Warrior and Punisher was the crazy Viet Nam vet. Those characters aren't really ones in which many folks identify with anymore. The Cold War is over and Viet Nam seems like a much more distant memory now than it was.

Not so WWII. WWII is still a huge part of how we as a nation define ourselves. Instead of making him less relevant, anchoring Cap in WWII makes him more relevant.

And of course, being the "man out of time" is a huge part of what makes Captain America a compelling character to me. 

Also, if you want to get rid of Cap for having his roots in WWII, then you also need to get rid of Nick Fury.


----------



## AFGNCAAP (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't think Cap will stay dead.  However, I wonder if he'll be "on hold" for a year or so, much like Thor was after his death.

Honestly, I think Pro-Reg will wind up being a failure, because something will happen to prove it wrong.  Perhaps it'll be Silent War, or maybe World War Hulk.  Something that will show that even will all of the heroes banding together to fight a common menace, they *still* can't win.  Or, the inapplicability of Registration for beings not from Earth at all (and whose powers could easily trump those of any Registration heroes).

Plus, I'm really disappointed no major villains have taken advantage of all of this (other than Kingpin, but his stuff's not that big scale-wise in comparison).  Why isn't Magento stirring up descent, esp. amongst the mutant community?  Why isn't Ultron taking advantage of the chaos to wipe out humanity?  Why isn't _*Dr. Doom*_ (of ALL villains) not taking advantage of this?

I mean, c'mon!  I'm waiting to see Doom really mess with Reed, perhaps tormenting Reed on how his actions drove away Sue, Johnny, and Ben.  Or Doom gaining control over the Extremis tech in Tony, making Iron Man his unwitting pawn (and maybe even taking control over the nanotech in the Thunderbolts).

I can't help but think of other issues that may come about from this, too.  The bit with Black Panther & Storm during Civil War brought up the issue of international relations with the whole Pro-Reg stuff regarding supers.  I have to wonder if they'll expand on that--maybe other nations may forbid U.S. supers from entering their countries, & vice-versa.

I just can't help but think that the Superhero Registration stuff will ultimately be shown to be a big waste of taxpayer money, & it'll go down the drain.  Maybe most of the 50 State Initiative heroes will be wiped out thanks to World War Hulk, Silent War, or the war with Atlantis.  Maybe there'll be more Stamford-like incidents despite the effort to put measures in place to avoid them.

Overall, I'm not happy with Marvel.  If it was just the storylines, I might be able to deal with it.  Throw in the bad continuity, as well as delays...  Well, don't make mine Marvel.  It's a shame, too--I used to like Iron Man.  I despise the character now w/ Civil War (or, at least, how he's been written).  I expect the whole Extremis thing will be the scapegoat for his behavior, but honestly, I won't buy it.

I'm glad Thor's coming back, but I hope it isn't a flub.  Don't have my hopes too high, though.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 13, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> It's the freaking HULK!
> 
> Do you think he's going to go through a sober, intellectual process to select his targets?
> 
> ...




This is the Hulk who led a rebellion, defeated a tyrant and became a beloved leader of an entire planet, complete with taking a wife. This is the Hulk who allowed a parasitic race to feed off *him* instead of preying on the populace.

The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).

In the previews we saw, Hulk used a holographic projector to address the people of NYC, in full gladiator panoply. Hardly a "Hulk Smash" moment.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).




Also, I'm fairly certain that the actual Nick Fury was in hiding at that point as a result of the events in Secret War so Reed and Tony used a LMD Nick Fury to lure Hulk into the wormhole trap.


----------



## DM_Matt (Mar 13, 2007)

They killed Cap when they made him stop being a nationalist. Better he stay dead than the abomination that the current leadership of Marvel has turned him into.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The Hulk SAW those responsible: Nick Fury (who sent him to space to begin with), Reed Richards (who actually addressed him through tape), Tony Stark (who was standing next to Reed) and Stephen Strange (who was standing at the back).




Don't forget that Black Bolt was there, too.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> How about Steve Rogers is dead, long live Captain America? The man dies, but the dream lives on?




Ah, but as demonstrated during Gruenwald's "replacement Cap" arc back in the 80s, there is more to being Captain America than just putting on the tights and slinging the shield. Heck, there have been many other Caps already (Steve's the first, but there have been 4 or 5 others, IIRC- John Walker, the Spirit of '76, the Patriot, the Grand Director, and a man named Roscoe), but the enduring legacy has always been that of Steve Rogers, because of all that he represents. Which is why his death won't last and he will return to the mantle eventually.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 13, 2007)

Actually, according to The Truth, there was a black Captain America before Steve Rogers.


----------



## Black Omega (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Actually, according to The Truth, there was a black Captain America before Steve Rogers.



Have a link on this?


----------



## billd91 (Mar 13, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I'm surprised there's all this emphasis on Steve Rogers being alive.
> 
> How about Steve Rogers is dead, long live Captain America? The man dies, but the dream lives on? You know, Cap was born in the Great Depression, something some of our grandfathers can't even say. For a character that's supposed to quintessentially human, that's just getting harder to buy into. A new reader comes into comics and says something like "so, Captain America, he's like immortal or something?", to which the veteran has to explain, "nah, he's human, but he's been bobbing around in an iceberg for the last...(mentally calculates) fifty years now, I guess".
> 
> Maybe it's just time for the mantle to pass on. Humans are mortal. They have to pass on their legacies for them to endure. Maybe instead of a walking piece of nostalgia from a war that's history to most of us, we now get a Cap that's actually a part of this century: a fireman who survived the World Trade Center attack, a soldier that served in Iraq, and so forth.




I can see what you're saying about Cap's experience becoming more and more remote from the present. But even with all of the military actions and interventions since WWII, there is nothing that approaches the awesome iconography of the WWII American GI and American responses to WWII and its immediate legacy. I can gudgingly acknowledge that, eventually, Captain America, should he continue, may have to have a more contemporary origin. But I don't think that time is really now, not when the sources of that iconography, the actual men and women of the time, are shuffling off the mortal coil. 
My prediction is we'll see Steve Rogers continue as Captain America at some point and in some form other than just the Ultimates line.
Plus, I think it would be better to see Steve Rogers pass on the mantle of Captain America himself when he decides it's time to hang up the shield. Perhaps at the point when the rest of his generation has passed into memory.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Actually, according to The Truth, there was a black Captain America before Steve Rogers.




That's not quite right. Steve Rogers was still the first Captain America. Isaiah Bradley was part of a group wherein they attempted to duplicate the Super Soldier formula that created Cap, and he ended up wearing a variation of Cap's costume in a mission subsequently. I don't think he was ever "officially" given the Captain America moniker.

He was supposed to have been the first Cap (that was the goal of the mini, as I understand it), but in the last issue they declared that his appearance was after Cap's creation.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Something else about the whole "Cap's out of touch with the American populace" thing that just struck me and irritates me. This is another theme that Gruenwald touched on in his Cap run back in the 80's- he had Cap leave New York to go roaming around the nation in his Cap Van for that reason- because he wanted to get back in touch with the people, and really be a hero to the people, not just to New York or the Avengers. Even Mark Waid touched on it (very briefly) in his run on the post-Heroes Reborn Cap, where Cap was confronted with images of American hegemony in Japan. Not to mention that Cap hasn't been living in the 40s for a long time now- even by Marvel's sliding timescale. He's very much a modern day American, and all this "out of touch" nonsense is just a throwback in regards to his characterization.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

And in other news- Is this the new Captain America?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Mar 13, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> And in other news- Is this the new Captain America?




Oh, God.

Shoot me now.

*Edit:* _Unless_... If this is

A) A _very_ temporary thing, and

B) The Punisher actually starts allowing the expectations of the identity to reshape him, perhaps becoming more like the real Cap and less a crazed psychopath, it might be an interesting character arc.

But I think such expectations are ridiculously high...


----------



## Felon (Mar 13, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> He is not dead.




He's dead, Vig. It was going to happen sooner or later.


----------



## Felon (Mar 13, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Not to mention that Cap hasn't been living in the 40s for a long time now- even by Marvel's sliding timescale. He's very much a modern day American, and all this "out of touch" nonsense is just a throwback in regards to his characterization.




You make it sound like characterization is a trivial thing. For a comic book character, it's everything.


----------



## wingsandsword (Mar 13, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> He's dead, Vig. It was going to happen sooner or later.



How many major, "A-list" Superheroes, the sorts of superhero that the typical person who isn't a comics geek and may have heard of (or seen in the movies or on TV ect.) have died and stayed dead?  I can't think of one.

Especially within Marvel, who is downright notorious for the impermanent comic book death.  DC has killed off or otherwise permanently lost some characters, but only to replace them with another person using the same identity (Robin, Flash, Green Lantern come to mind)

Those of us who are only casual fans of superheroic exploits still remember being burned by the whole "Death of Superman" thing, so the "Death of Captain America" comes out with skepticism.  Just like if they had a "Death of Spiderman" or "Death of Batman" (not just being crippled, being confirmed dead as a doornail) plotline, people will be skeptical now.


----------



## Black Omega (Mar 13, 2007)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Especially within Marvel, who is downright notorious for the impermanent comic book death.  DC has killed off or otherwise permanently lost some characters, but only to replace them with another person using the same identity (Robin, Flash, Green Lantern come to mind)




Robin - Jason Todd has been back.

Pretty much all the Green Lanterns are back, including Hal Jordan.  Even the Green Lanterns he left floating in space without their rings were brought back.

Flash is still dead at least, but with the time travel thing, I think he's turned up once.  His nemisis, Prof. Zoom, has returned thanks to time travel.  He gave Wally West grief, but it was before his death in his own personal timeline.

Edit:  Though now that I think about it the original Supergirl is still dead and she has to be one of the more famous deaths, right up there with Barry Allen.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 13, 2007)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> Robin - Jason Todd has been back.
> 
> Pretty much all the Green Lanterns are back, including Hal Jordan.  Even the Green Lanterns he left floating in space without their rings were brought back.
> 
> ...



 Supergirl was rebooted. The current Supergirl is Kara Zor-El again.

Flash (Barry Allen) told Wally he'd show up in the three most terrible days in Wally's life, to help him. He already showed up twice.

And I agree with Mouse on the linked picture.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 13, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I'm surprised there's all this emphasis on Steve Rogers being alive.



Not me. I want him *DEAD.* Let somebody else don the mask and strap the shield.


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 13, 2007)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> How many major, "A-list" Superheroes, the sorts of superhero that the typical person who isn't a comics geek and may have heard of (or seen in the movies or on TV ect.) have died and stayed dead?  I can't think of one.
> 
> Especially within Marvel, who is downright notorious for the impermanent comic book death.  DC has killed off or otherwise permanently lost some characters, but only to replace them with another person using the same identity (Robin, Flash, Green Lantern come to mind)
> 
> Those of us who are only casual fans of superheroic exploits still remember being burned by the whole "Death of Superman" thing, so the "Death of Captain America" comes out with skepticism.  Just like if they had a "Death of Spiderman" or "Death of Batman" (not just being crippled, being confirmed dead as a doornail) plotline, people will be skeptical now.




Exactly right.

Not to mention... Cap's book is a top 5 seller again for the first time in um... 30 years? 

Ed Brubaker has the character of Steve Rogers resonating again. And a lot of what is popular about the book just wouldn't work for "another Cap".

I mean... Cap is meeting the Invaders, he's fighting the Red Skull, his friendship with the Falcon has been central, his attempts to redeem Bucky, his relationship with Sharon Carter.

I realize there are folks who think anyone could fill those shoes, but as a monthly subscriber to Cap for the entire 2+ years of this relaunch, I am telling you that killing Steve Rogers would rip the guts out of that book.

So they're killing an icon who finally matters again (for the first time since Jim Steranko was drawing the book), while his book is a top 5 seller, while they have an A-List writer who signed exlcusively with Marvel (more or less) to write Captain America, Steve Rogers, a character he has publically said he adores.

It just doesn't add up, well, ever really, but in this SPECIFIC case it adds up even less.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> You make it sound like characterization is a trivial thing. For a comic book character, it's everything.




???

Not sure how I made it sound like characterization is trivial, since my point was the characterization of Cap as being out of touch in Civil War completely disregarded his past character development as someone very much interested in getting in touch with the American public...


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 13, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> It just doesn't add up, well, ever really, but in this SPECIFIC case it adds up even less.




Which is why I personally suspect that Brubaker's overall arc is going to address precisely one of the issues we've been kind of discussing here, which is that Steve Rogers _is_ Captain America, and that you can't just put the costume on anyone and have the same effect. There is more to the man, to the image, to the concept than just a pair of tights and an indestructible shield- it is the heart that Steve represents. I think we'll see that through the eyes of Bucky, Falcon, and Agent 13.

Then again, who knows what will come. Brubaker's definitely got a plan, and it's a long term one- and one he's been setting the stage for for several months now at least (he found out about Cap's death at the same infamous Marvel retreat that saw the genesis of the Civil War storyline, and that's been going on forever now.)


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> And in other news- Is this the new Captain America?





HA HA HA HA HA!!!


Thats funny...  I hope that will not last more than two issues cause Punisher looks goofy in that outfit.  Besides that, the last person I would want to become a personification of the the american ideals is the punisher...  

Just think about paradigm shift that would represent...  I don't think the american has gotten to the that point yet...

Never the less, it should be interesting to see how it plays out with both Punisher and Hulk hunting down Iron Man..


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 14, 2007)

Punisher lately has just been great.

I love the idea of him taking up the mantle of Cap...despite Cap pretty much hating the guy, it seemed like Frank really looked up to him(like most all the heroes, if he counts as one ). It definitely won't be permanent, but I can't wait to see what happens with this.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 14, 2007)

No, the next Captain America is going to be Stephen Colbert. He was given Cap's shield on the Mar 12th show by Joe Quesada because Colbert is the only one who's got the "Red, white and blue" _-intestinal fortitude-_ to carry it. And Captain America willed it to him in the event of his death. Colbert even knew it was made from Wakandan vibranium. 

Accept the truthiness of it all, not the wikiality.


----------



## Felon (Mar 14, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Which is why I personally suspect that Brubaker's overall arc is going to address precisely one of the issues we've been kind of discussing here, which is that Steve Rogers _is_ Captain America, and that you can't just put the costume on anyone and have the same effect. There is more to the man, to the image, to the concept than just a pair of tights and an indestructible shield- it is the heart that Steve represents.



That's an almost depressing sentiment, to think that things simply can't change for the better. You don't have to be rendered immortal to have your legend carried on. 



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> How many major, "A-list" Superheroes, the sorts of superhero that the typical person who isn't a comics geek and may have heard of (or seen in the movies or on TV ect.) have died and stayed dead?  I can't think of one.



There is little more annoying than that thought process that runs along the lines of "things have been this way, so they always will be". Is there something that makes Cap distinct from all the other heroes that have been resurrected? Yes, which is that his roots are firmly laid down in the early half of a bygone century. That's the reason for him to die and, hopefully, be re-invented as a young and vital new hero.


----------



## Felon (Mar 14, 2007)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> Flash is still dead at least, but with the time travel thing, I think he's turned up once.



Ha! Marvel so loathes the idea of leaving a superhero dead that they even brought back a character owned by DC. 

Quasar #17 concerns a blonde man in a torn red outfit with yellow boots popping out of a dimensional rift, with the only thing on his mind being that he has to run like hell. He runs straight into a race being held by the Runner, and manages to blow past all the Marvel-Earth speedsters despite their head start, handily crossing the finish line first.

When asked his name, he states that he can't quite remember it, but it's something like "Buried Alien".

Fear my fanboy fu!


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> That's an almost depressing sentiment, to think that things simply can't change for the better. You don't have to be rendered immortal to have your legend carried on.
> 
> 
> There is little more annoying than that thought process that runs along the lines of "things have been this way, so they always will be". Is there something that makes Cap distinct from all the other heroes that have been resurrected? Yes, and that is that is roots are firmly laid down in the early half of a bygone century. That's the reason for him to die and, hopefully, be re-invented as a young and vital new hero.




Nothing can change does not equal all the old heroes must go.

Sorry, but you can't catch lightning in a bottle. Characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain America have been around for 60-70 years and counting for a reason.

When is the new King Arthur going to get rolled out? Isn't that legend tired by now? What about the new Conan? The new Sherlock Holmes?

This isn't Ms. Marvel we're talking about here, or Ghost Rider or Iron Fist. It's Captain Freaking America.

He's been an iconic legend for decades. 

And yes, things can change for him. Heck, imo things HAVE changed for him lately. He's a different character than I've seen in a long time, in a way that makes sense to me organically for the character. 

If a character is played out and has no more stories to tell, I could see making a radical change. Marvel has shown a willingness to make big changes when they felt the character needed.

The Avengers were blown up and radically altered. Iron Man went through a pretty radical change in Extremis. 

You might think that's what's called for here but I disagree. 

As the son of a WWII veteran Cap still speaks to me and I think the generation he represents, celebrated in books, films, video games and documentaries every day still has a lot to say to most comic readers.


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## Felon (Mar 14, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Sorry, but you can't catch lightning in a bottle. Characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain America have been around for 60-70 years and counting for a reason.




Hopefully, there'll be a new Cap and he will be executed well enough that the character will be popular enough to make the transition. Of course, if that doesn't happen, then Cap will be resussitated and killed off again at some future point, until he gets an heir with traction.

And to keep resussitating him, to perpetuate the trend of nothing ever changing permanently in the comic world, that there are no moments that last in time--man, what a pity that would be.


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## Darth Shoju (Mar 14, 2007)

With all this back and forth, I wanted to post up one of the reasons I love Cap:








To me, some characters just become mythic and can never be replaced. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman and Captain America are such characters. 

YMMV, of course.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 14, 2007)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> To me, some characters just become mythic and can never be replaced. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman and Captain America are such characters.



Okay, Cap stays, but Steve Rogers's out. There is a reason why he wears a mask. We can always replace the person behind it.


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## Vigilance (Mar 14, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Okay, Cap stays, but Steve Rogers's out. There is a reason why he wears a mask. We can always replace the person behind it.




To me Steve Rogers is the most interesting part of the character. 

I love the idea of the man out of time, who punched Hitler in the mouth in 1940, who fought with the Human Torch and Sub Mariner and Bucky and then went on to lead the Avengers.

To me, following the adventures of a different guy in that suit makes as little sense as following a different guy in Batman's suit.


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## kroh (Mar 14, 2007)

Here is an interview from the New York Public Radio podcast regarding Cap.  The interview is with Ed Brubaker and Joe Simon (one of Cap's creators).  

_ BROOKE GLADSTONE: It was all over the news this week, reported in The New York Times, on CNN, the BBC and right here on NPR. Shot four times in the stomach, chest and shoulder, Steve Rogers lay bleeding on the steps of the Federal Courthouse in New York City. The truth of the incident is not yet known, justice is not yet served and the American way is not yet resolved. Captain America is no more.

The son of Irish immigrants, Rogers was born in 1917 on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, drank a super-serum made by the military and prevailed during World War II and beyond as Marvel Comics' super-soldier.

In Volume I, Issue I, Captain America, sentinel of our shores, comes face to face with his first nemesis, Adolf Hitler. In the mid-1940s, Cap would defeat a host of villains in a series of black-and-white movie shorts with titles like Blade of Wrath, Vault of Vengeance and The Purple Death.

[CLIP]:

[MUSIC UP AND UNDER]

MAN: The Commissioner's been alibying his failure to turn up anything in these Purple Death murders.

MAN: You remember the Commissioner and I have cleaned up crime waves in this town before.

MAN: Yes. That mysterious Captain America did most of your work for you.

[MUSIC UP AND UNDER]

[END OF CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Sixty-six years, five volumes and nearly 600 comic books later, Captain America lay dead at the hands of a 40-year-old Marvel Comics writer named Ed Brubaker, who titled the shocking storyline The Death of the Dream.

ED BRUBAKER: When I first bought Captain America, I was living on the military base in Guantanamo Bay as a little kid. My dad was an officer in the Navy. And so for me, Captain America has always been this part of my life connected to the government and the military. And the reason that I titled it The Death of the Dream is because I wanted to do a story that explored what Captain America meant to America.

And I found that doing the comic with Cap in it, he's such a large figure, and so much of the comic is about him leaping from rooftops and punching out bad guys, that it's hard to actually address what Captain America stands for. And I felt like with the wake that follows his death, you can actually explore what he means to the country by not having him be here.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And his death was the culmination of a civil war in the superhero universe that was being fought over, largely over civil liberties.

ED BRUBAKER: Yup. It began with a huge disaster where a bunch of schoolchildren were killed by some super-villains, and the government basically in response to it decided that, you know, the superheroes were part of the problem, too, and that they needed to be regulated.

So the government enacted this thing called the Superhero Registration Act. Anyone who refused to register and give up their secret identity to the government became a criminal, essentially. And Captain America thought it was anti-American and anti-civil rights, and so his response to it was to lead the resistance. And that became a key conflict between him and Iron Man and several other major characters, and it kind of split the Marvel universe up the middle with the heroes against each other.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Okay. Now, obviously this isn't the real world, but, you know, we've seen in the past few elections a genuine political schism in America that we've short-handed as the red state/blue state divide. Have you noticed among Captain America fans that some paint him red and others blue?

ED BRUBAKER: Oh, completely. The most interesting and frustrating thing sometimes about working on the character is every hardcore right wing nut wants Cap to be their guy and every liberal wants Cap to be standing on the street crying out against the Bush administration. Whereas Captain America is a guy who grew up during the Depression and idolized the New Deal and FDR, and I always thought would be a New Deal Democrat, but at the same time, he's a guy who spent his entire life, his entire adult life in the military. He wouldn't be a red–stater or a blue-stater. He'd see the shades of gray and purple.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And, of course, now you've killed the possibility of consensus with two bullets [BRUBAKER LAUGHS] from a sniper. So where does the series Captain America go from here? They killed Superman off and brought him back. Any chance for a resurrection?

ED BRUBAKER: One of the things that I really tried to do really hard in Cap 25 was to make sure that his death was an incredibly realistic death. You know, he gets shot by a sniper, and then, as the crowd surges around him, he gets taken out by some close-range shots straight to the torso.

There's never going to be a comic fan in the world who reads this issue and doesn't think in the back of their mind, he's not really dead. They're going to bring him back someday. And I wanted to try and do as much as I could to just get them thinking, this is a really human death, and, you know, maybe he's not coming back, and I really want to see what happens after this.

We're not going to, you know, see a bunch of people putting on Captain America's costume and becoming, you know, Teen Cap and [BROOKE LAUGHS] and various things like that. I think that we're going to try and go a different route and actually just tell a really intriguing story about what Steve Rogers meant to America and what he meant to the people around him.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: What's Steve Rogers meant to America? If you, Ed, could cast yourself into one of your comic and you were tasked to give his eulogy, what would you say?

ED BRUBAKER: Uh – sorry? [LAUGHTER] You know, I always saw Captain America as being much more of a character like Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine, someone who really thought about what America was supposed to be as opposed to what America is. And when I was a little kid, they did a story where Cap basically finds out that the President is a bad guy, and quits, and goes around the country on a motorcycle.

So I always liked that about Captain America, that he was sort of a voice for what was good about the American dream, and, at the same time, he could be a very strong voice of dissent. His super-powers is that he's given a formula that takes the human body to the ultimate perfection of what the human potential would be. That's how he became Captain America. And I thought because he's Captain America and not just Captain U.N. or Captain World, his ideals are what America could be and what America should be as opposed to what America sometimes is.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And that's why you killed him.

ED BRUBAKER: [LAUGHS] I just killed him to tell a good story.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Ed Brubaker is a writer for Marvel Comics. The creator of Captain America, 93-year-old Joe Simon, believes his patriotic super-soldier will someday return from the dead. For now, though, he's in mourning. In fact, he's sitting shiva.

JOE SIMON: I am. I'm sitting shiva and trying to keep from crying here.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: How did you come up with the idea for Captain America?

JOE SIMON: Well, at that time we were all trying to come up with new characters and new ideas and sell a comic book, because they were really tough times at the end of the Depression. And just looking at the competition there, it occurred to me that the villains, not the heroes, were selling more books, so I went about looking for ideas for new villains.

And we were not at war at the time, but it was obvious what was going to happen over there in Europe. And Hitler was like a funny guy. He was a clown. And so I thought that we would have a live villain instead of a Penguin or Joker.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And having found your villain in Hitler, you had to create a hero to defeat him.

JOE SIMON: Exactly. Yes. We had enough of the guys with trick powers of – flew through the air, and, you know, had the spider webs and all that. But to be a real nice American that would walk a lady across the street – that was our goal for Captain America.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Now, in that year when you first wrote Captain America -

JOE SIMON: Yeah, 1941.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: - did you have him defeat Hitler?

JOE SIMON: No, I don't think we ever got that far. Hitler actually wasn't as sinister in our books as he was stupid. So we weren't going to kill him off. He was doing too well for us.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Now, you said earlier that you're trying to keep from crying.

JOE SIMON: I don't – I'm getting a lot of hits on the Internet here of people that are veterans and patriots all over the world, and they're actually taking this thing really to heart. Grown men are crying over it. [LAUGHS] They just don't understand, God bless 'em.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: [LAUGHS] Joe, thank you very much.

JOE SIMON: Okay, Brooke.

[MUSIC UP AND UNDER]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Joe Simon created Captain America in 1941.
_

you can listen to the podcast  here


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> To me, following the adventures of a different guy in that suit makes as little sense as following a different guy in Batman's suit.


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## Felon (Mar 14, 2007)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> With all this back and forth, I wanted to post up one of the reasons I love Cap:
> 
> To me, some characters just become mythic and can never be replaced. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman and Captain America are such characters.



Interesting choice of examples. The Infinity Gauntlet and its follow-ups does a good job of showing how the Marvel superhero community is inept at handling complex problems. Cap is all nice and defiant--to borrow a line from Braveheart, "it's _easy_ to admire uncompromising men"--but was he all that effective? Not really. He and the rest of the heroes are just brawlers, completely out of their element in a situation where a frontal assault is pointless. They wind up manipulated into being cannon fodder for Adam Warlock (in Gauntlet) and later on for Thanos himself (in War & Crusade), and ultimately are pretty irrelevant in the conflict. One mini-series after the next, they drew in the audience, then wound up sidelined while Warlock and Thanos resolve everything.

This is one area where I think DC's got a superior cast of heroes, because they actually, because they actually seem to be able to strategize and then launch an effective attack that combines both frontal assaults and covert tactics. 

(And just to be clear, that last bit is intended to address the inevitable snappy retort that facetiously asks what we expect from superheroes other than brainless brawling)


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2007)

Question: Did Captain America actually receive martial arts training beyond the usual US Military training?


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## Felon (Mar 14, 2007)

Re: Batman Beyond
Great show about a great man passing down his legacy, rather than just being rendered immortal because it's hard to imagine anyone filling his shoes. It's a good example of what some of us are trying to articulate.

Re: Cap's fighting skills
Kind of a tricky area. Cap's supposed to be the perfect fighter, the ultimate hand-to-hand combatant. He does do a lot of throws and legsweeps and such, but he can't perform the semi-superhuman stunts that guys like Shang-Chi and Iron First are capable of.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> That's an almost depressing sentiment, to think that things simply can't change for the better. You don't have to be rendered immortal to have your legend carried on.




It is not reasonable to think that change will be for the better when what you have is already really good.  There's so much more room for falling that improvement is not the way to bet.



> There is little more annoying than that thought process that runs along the lines of "things have been this way, so they always will be". Is there something that makes Cap distinct from all the other heroes that have been resurrected?




Yes - the fact that Cap has been consistently more heroic, and simultaneously more human, than anyone else in the field with the possible exception of Spider Man.  Superman is as iconic, but is so powerful as to be inhuman.  Batman's mania leaves him similarly outside normal experience.  

And let's be clear about one major thing - youth and vitality are nowhere near the same.  Vitality is important ot a character, but I don't see the importace of youth, in and of itself.


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## billd91 (Mar 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Interesting choice of examples. The Infinity Gauntlet and its follow-ups does a good job of showing how the Marvel superhero community is inept at handling complex problems. Cap is all nice and defiant--to borrow a line from Braveheart, "it's _easy_ to admire uncompromising men"--but was he all that effective? Not really.




Contrast this with the Korvac story arc in the Avengers. Cap takes on Korvac alone while most of the rest of the Avengers are reeling and inspires Wonder Man, the character with the most fear of death, to sacrifice himself to buy the other heavy hitters enough time to get to their feet.
That's why nobody replaces Steve Rogers as Cap. He's one of a kind.


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## billd91 (Mar 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Re: Cap's fighting skills
> Kind of a tricky area. Cap's supposed to be the perfect fighter, the ultimate hand-to-hand combatant. He does do a lot of throws and legsweeps and such, but he can't perform the semi-superhuman stunts that guys like Shang-Chi and Iron First are capable of.




Don't mistake flashy with effective. Cap's brand of martial arts seems to be more simple and direct than elaborate.


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## kroh (Mar 14, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Question: Did Captain America actually receive martial arts training beyond the usual US Military training?




According to wikipedia, he is an expert in boxing, jujutsu, as well as judo.  He combines all of this into his gymnastic ability to produce his particular way of fighting.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2007)

kroh said:
			
		

> According to wikipedia, he is an expert in boxing, jujutsu, as well as judo.  He combines all of this into his gymnastic ability to produce his particular way of fighting.
> 
> Regards,
> Walt



 I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 14, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Okay, Cap stays, but Steve Rogers's out. There is a reason why he wears a mask. We can always replace the person behind it.




And yet, in all the times that Captain America has been replaced, they've inevitably returned the mantle to Steve Rogers. Why? Quite possibly because it isn't about just the costume, but the man wearing it.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Hopefully, there'll be a new Cap and he will be executed well enough that the character will be popular enough to make the transition. Of course, if that doesn't happen, then Cap will be resussitated and killed off again at some future point, until he gets an heir with traction.




Again, though- in regards to "an heir with traction"- the reason that other Caps haven't taken in the past is because Steve Rogers as Captain America represents something that none of those other characters have. His idealism and conviction- among his other traits- have made him the standout person to wear the mantle time and again. In order to have someone replace him in the hearts and minds of the comic community, you have to craft a character of similar principle and moral character, essentially creating the character you've already got. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, and that a writer (with more vision than I have, certainly) couldn't do it, just that it has yet to be done, and that its more difficult than it seems.

You keep pointing to DC, but even their attempts at "Legacy" characters don't always take. Azrael didn't take as Batman, Jason Todd didn't take as Robin, the new Aquaman may or may not take (jury's still out), Kyle Rayner didn't take as Green Lantern- despite what is one of the most directed and long-term attempts to create and support a legacy character. Thus far, Wally West stands out as almost an anomaly in the effort to pass along the mantle, and that was always a rocky road (and there are still people clamoring for a return of Barry Allen to this day).


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 14, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.




Really? All I see there is this quote:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Batman faces Captain America. Using a series of feints and blocks, the two test each other to see what each is capable of. Batman announces that Captain America would likely defeat him, but that it would take him a long time to do it.




Which is pretty much my recollection (hardly a flooring to be sure, and not in Bats' favor). In any case, wikipedia of course, is hardly an authority.

As I recall reading Kurt's take on Cap vs. Batman (which he deliberately left vague), his take has always been that Cap would win in a straight out confrontation, unless Batman had time to prepare, in which case he'd pull out a victory. 

It's never been completely clear where Cap's martial arts training came from, but he's regarded as having expert training in many different forms of unarmed combat. He and Bats are very similar in their physical prowess, actually, and both men exercise and train regularly and intensively, so it would be an interesting fight. Cap- being peak human- would/should have an edge, physically, though. Bats has all his gadgets and tricks, as well as just a much more brilliant mind.


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## D.Shaffer (Mar 14, 2007)

Just to inject some levity into the discussion...


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## Rackhir (Mar 14, 2007)

We already know who's going to assume the mantle of Captain America.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 14, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I asked because in the JLA/Avengers mini, Batman and Captain America were in a standstill of sorts. If the Wikipedia entry is correct, Batman could've floored Captain.





Well I would say Cap is a lot faster, stronger, and tougher than Bats since Bats is just well trained and Cap is the pinnacle of human physical perfection.  Plus Cap was killing Nazis before Batman was even a twinkle in his mothers eye.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Bats has all his gadgets and tricks, as well as just a much more brilliant mind.




Bats has it all over Cap in terms of detective work and science, sure, so wiht preparation he can pull out things Cap wouldn't expect.  But in terms of battle tactics at fight time, not so much.  Cap's also a master tactician.  There's a reason that he tended to lead the Avengers in battle - he knows what the heck he's doing in a fight.


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## Vigilance (Mar 14, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Thus far, Wally West stands out as almost an anomaly in the effort to pass along the mantle, and that was always a rocky road (and there are still people clamoring for a return of Barry Allen to this day).




And their attempt to have Wally West pass on the Flash mantle to Bart Allen has been a big failure. 

Also in most cases, DC hasn't passed off its characters willy nilly. It's passed them to proven characters (sidekicks) and usually after interest in a character has waned. For example most of the handoffs were done after all the Golden Age books were cancelled and later brought back in the Silver Age, when supers were more popular again.

This is the reason Marvel brought Cap back (the resurgence of superheroes) but Stan thought the character was too strong and came up with a way to have it be the same Cap.

Stan rebooted PLENTY of Golden Age characters (the Human Torch springs to mind here). Good enough for Stan, good enough for me.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 14, 2007)

Wally West is and always will be The Flash to me.  Barry Allen is some long dead character that should stay long dead, Wally is just too damn good.


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> And yet, in all the times that Captain America has been replaced, they've inevitably returned the mantle to Steve Rogers. Why? Quite possibly because it isn't about just the costume, but the man wearing it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Azrael was never intended to be Batman forever, not anymore than the Four Supermen during the Reign of the Supermen arc. Barry Allen was succesful, as was Wally West. Jason Todd didn't take after the editors at DC opted to make him an unlikeable brat to separate him from Dick Grayson, post-Crisis (pre-Crisis, Jason Todd was blonde, and behaved pretty much like Dick did). Kyle Rayner was a huge success, and is a strong character to this day (the Hal Jordan backlash stemmed mostly from the treatment given to Hal in Emerald Twilight/Zero Hour).


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## Klaus (Mar 14, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Bats has it all over Cap in terms of detective work and science, sure, so wiht preparation he can pull out things Cap wouldn't expect.  But in terms of battle tactics at fight time, not so much.  Cap's also a master tactician.  There's a reason that he tended to lead the Avengers in battle - he knows what the heck he's doing in a fight.



 And Batman is the tactician of the JLA.

Physically, Batman and Cap are tied, with the caveat that Batman trained to get there, whereas Cap took the serum. Steve Rogers may be a great tactician, but Bruce Wayne is arguably the most intelligent man on Earth. People mention Cap's wartime experience, which ammounts to about 4 years. Then he gets frozen, and returns "ten years ago" or something. That's 14 years. By DC's timeline, Bruce Wayne has been Batman for 12-14 years, plus had his 10 years of training.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 14, 2007)

I don't think Batman and Cap are tied though.  One is a great trained man, while one is pysically perfect.  I think Cap has the edge.  Bats fights thugs who are stronger than he is, but the only people stronger than Cap have superpowered strength.  Plus he probably packed as much into those 4 years of War as Bats does in a decade of fighting normal crime.  Bats is smarter no doubt, but I don't think he is the tactician or hand to hand combatant that Cap is.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Stan rebooted PLENTY of Golden Age characters (the Human Torch springs to mind here). Good enough for Stan, good enough for me.




Correct me if I am misinterpreting, please:  You point out that a number of characters  rebooted successfully after being dropped due to supers being out of fashion.  Basically, they were given a "between age rest" .

I am not sure how that translates to rebooting Captain America, unless you also include that long rest.  Seems to me the evidence you point to suggests that we'd need a long period without a Captain America at all before we could expect a successful passing of the mantle.


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## Vigilance (Mar 14, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am misinterpreting, please:  You point out that a number of characters  rebooted successfully after being dropped due to supers being out of fashion.  Basically, they were given a "between age rest" .
> 
> I am not sure how that translates to rebooting Captain America, unless you also include that long rest.  Seems to me the evidence you point to suggests that we'd need a long period without a Captain America at all before we could expect a successful passing of the mantle.




Sorry I was attempting to contrast what happened to Flash, Green Lantern and so forth and Cap.

Basically, the majority of the Golden Age Supers were revamped/rebooted when they were brought back.

The exceptions were Captain America, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. The latter three never went out of print.

I must have stated it badly.

What I was trying to say was that Stan and DC weren't agraid to revamp Golden Age heroes but in four cases they chose not to. To me that says something.


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## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> And yet, in all the times that Captain America has been replaced, they've inevitably returned the mantle to Steve Rogers. Why? Quite possibly because it isn't about just the costume, but the man wearing it.



And also quite likely because he was never intended to be replaced permanently. Indeed, citing multiple "replacements" is something of a canard, as they mostly weren't actually that, but rather retcons to explain some of Cap's post-WWII appearances. The Super-Patriot was the singular actual replacement, and that character was set up specifically to be an unworthy successor.



> You keep pointing to DC, but even their attempts at "Legacy" characters don't always take. Azrael didn't take as Batman, Jason Todd didn't take as Robin, the new Aquaman may or may not take (jury's still out), Kyle Rayner didn't take as Green Lantern- despite what is one of the most directed and long-term attempts to create and support a legacy character. Thus far, Wally West stands out as almost an anomaly in the effort to pass along the mantle, and that was always a rocky road (and there are still people clamoring for a return of Barry Allen to this day).



Again, Azriel was to Batman what Super-Patriot was to Cap: a temporary gimmick to stimulated interest. But if you're gonna cite Jason Todd, then definitely throw Time Drake on that list as a successful Robin. Traction happens.


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## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I don't think Batman and Cap are tied though.  One is a great trained man, while one is pysically perfect.



Nope, they're both at the peak of human physical ability...whatever the heck that means. 

For the record, folks, in that fight in JLA/Avengers, Batman says "OK, you MIGHT be able to beat me", not "probably". Big difference. They've fought before too, in John Byrne's Batman/Cap one-off, and in DC vs. Marvel. In all cases, it was depicted as being anyone's game.


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## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Bats has it all over Cap in terms of detective work and science, sure, so wiht preparation he can pull out things Cap wouldn't expect.  But in terms of battle tactics at fight time, not so much.  Cap's also a master tactician.  There's a reason that he tended to lead the Avengers in battle - he knows what the heck he's doing in a fight.



Sadly, I recall very few instances of Cap demonstrating any tremendous strategical skills. In fact, it is humorous to notice that during many writers' tenure (e.g. Roy Thomas) his leadership often boils to either A) yelling at individual characters not to attack alone, or B) yelling at multiple characters to not attack all at once. God, the Avengers were such an undisciplined bunch of brawlers.

His role was often more inspirational than strategic. However, as a notable exception, I really loved Mark Gruenwald's portrayal of the character. He always toned his characters down a bit and equipped with more brains than attitude (probably why he never really atttained the degree of popular recognition with readers). Jim Shooter did a fine job with him in Secret Wars too.


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## Vigilance (Mar 15, 2007)

If Cap and Batman fought 10 times it would probably come out 5-5.


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## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Contrast this with the Korvac story arc in the Avengers. Cap takes on Korvac alone while most of the rest of the Avengers are reeling and inspires Wonder Man, the character with the most fear of death, to sacrifice himself to buy the other heavy hitters enough time to get to their feet. That's why nobody replaces Steve Rogers as Cap. He's one of a kind.




Rogers was one of a kind, and so hopefully will be his successor.

Regarding your Korvac example, we have a fine example of Cap being an inspirational leader rather than a brilliant strategist. Never say die, never give up, never surrender/ He's that uncompromising man that's easy to admire--and whose shortcomings are easy to overlook. In this case, it's overlooked that the Avengers and Korvac shouldn't have been fighting in the first place. Korvac's goals were benevolent. A little compromise might have saved them some trouble.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Rogers was one of a kind, and so hopefully will be his successor.



Just not another blonde-haired, blue-eyed dude. He should be at least biracial, like Dwayne Johnson (half-Samoan, half-African-American).


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## shilsen (Mar 15, 2007)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> If Cap and Batman fought 10 times it would probably come out 5-5.



 Since they're both fictional characters, and comic book ones to boot, I'd say it would all depend on the particular author and the story arc they were in. But maybe that's just me.


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## Vigilance (Mar 15, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Since they're both fictional characters, and comic book ones to boot, I'd say it would all depend on the particular author and the story arc they were in. But maybe that's just me.




Referring to them as fictional characters is blasphemy.

Cap was my best friend in 4th grade!


----------



## Umbran (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> His role was often more inspirational than strategic.




Well, we can match those portrayals woith Bats' turns at slavering and myopic monomania, or (gasp) the skinny-dork Adam West version, and call it even, then.


----------



## billd91 (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Rogers was one of a kind, and so hopefully will be his successor.
> 
> Regarding your Korvac example, we have a fine example of Cap being an inspirational leader rather than a brilliant strategist. Never say die, never give up, never surrender/ He's that uncompromising man that's easy to admire--and whose shortcomings are easy to overlook. In this case, it's overlooked that the Avengers and Korvac shouldn't have been fighting in the first place. Korvac's goals were benevolent. A little compromise might have saved them some trouble.




I can only assume you believe Moondragon's take on it. I think most people, myself included, would disagree. She _would_ think Korvac would be benevolent, but then she had an autocratic personality. It's worth pointing out that when confronted by the Avengers, Korvac's first act is to murder someone who isn't even there. Cap was right, Korvac was a self-appointed diety who casually commits mass murder which, given his titanic power, was completely unnecessary.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 15, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Just not another blonde-haired, blue-eyed dude. He should be at least biracial, like Dwayne Johnson (half-Samoan, half-African-American).




And speak in the third person. I can see it now:

"FINALLY, the Cap has come BACK to the Avengers! Who in the blue hell are you?"

"I'm..."

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS! And the rest of those pajama wearing jabronis WERE right. You do suck." 

Hrm.

C'mon Steve Rogers! Come back from the light! I repeat STAY AWAY FROM THE LIGHT!

Until then, we must accept the truthiness of it all. Steve Rogers will be back and won't Colbert be ticked he has to return the shield.


----------



## Kendermage (Mar 15, 2007)

I suspect you'll see four guys rise up each claiming to be Captain America.  One will be a man in an Iron Suit (Iron man), Another will be a cyborg version of Cap, the third will be a teenaged boy cloned from Cap's DNA, and the Fourth will be an alien that posseses the dead body of Cap.  None of them will ultimately be Cap; who will be revealed to be a political prisoner of the U.S Government.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 15, 2007)

Kendermage said:
			
		

> who will be revealed to be a political prisoner of the U.S Governament.



"Governament."

_Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?_


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Nope, they're both at the peak of human physical ability...whatever the heck that means.




I don't agree.  For one Bats isn't as strong, and probably isn't as fast.  Back in the old "Handbook Of The Marvel Universe" series Cap was listed as being at the total peak of natural human strength and could press 800lbs.  Bats was never listed as definiately in the DC books, but I've read tons of stories were big thugs are stronger than him, that doesn't happen with Cap.  I would assume the same goes for other attributes.  Bats is a more well rounded fighter probably due to studying more styles, and is much smarter of course, but in sheer physical attributes I think Cap has an edge due to the syrum.


----------



## Kendermage (Mar 15, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> "Governament."
> 
> _Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?_




Actually yes, just can't type better than than a fifth grader.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 15, 2007)

Kendermage said:
			
		

> I suspect you'll see four guys rise up each claiming to be Captain America.  One will be a man in an Iron Suit (Iron man), Another will be a cyborg version of Cap, the third will be a teenaged boy cloned from Cap's DNA, and the Fourth will be an alien that posseses the dead body of Cap.  None of them will ultimately be Cap; who will be revealed to be a political prisoner of the U.S Government.




What's funny about this is it's not too far off, so far. We've got images of Iron Man holding Cap's shield (Steel), and the Punisher in a Cap-like costume (Eradicator). We've also got Patriot from the Young Avengers out there running around (Superboy). We just need a cyborg version... and Deathlok's been returned to active status recently with Dwayne McDuffie's Beyond! series, although he's not evil.

Who would be Cap's likely cyborg counterpart... maybe a Machinesmith Cap robot?


----------



## kroh (Mar 15, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Who would be Cap's likely cyborg counterpart... maybe a Machinesmith Cap robot?




*SPOILER*



Spoiler



In #28 of _New Avengers_ there is a CAP Bot that SHIELD uses to try and trick the Avengers into a trap.  At the last minute Wolverine pulls out the stink detector and realizes that the scent is all wrong.  Stupid LMD's.



Regards, 
Walt


----------



## Vigilance (Mar 15, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> What's funny about this is it's not too far off, so far. We've got images of Iron Man holding Cap's shield (Steel), and the Punisher in a Cap-like costume (Eradicator). We've also got Patriot from the Young Avengers out there running around (Superboy). We just need a cyborg version... and Deathlok's been returned to active status recently with Dwayne McDuffie's Beyond! series, although he's not evil.
> 
> Who would be Cap's likely cyborg counterpart... maybe a Machinesmith Cap robot?




Winter Soldier (aka Bucky) has a cybernetic arm now. Maybe him.


----------



## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> And speak in the third person. I can see it now:
> 
> "FINALLY, the Cap has come BACK to the Avengers! Who in the blue hell are you?"
> 
> ...



Is this coming from the Avengers that have all those members that were previously considered too "small-time" to fly around with Cap and Iron man saving the world? The Avengers where everyone who heard about the lineup in advance went "Luke Cage? Spider-Man AND Woman? WOLVERINE??? No way this team will last!" Yet fans fell in love with the book anyway, didn't they? Boy, did you just heave a mountain of evidence against your own position.


----------



## Felon (Mar 15, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I don't agree.  For one Bats isn't as strong, and probably isn't as fast.  Back in the old "Handbook Of The Marvel Universe" series Cap was listed as being at the total peak of natural human strength and could press 800lbs.  Bats was never listed as definiately in the DC books, but I've read tons of stories were big thugs are stronger than him, that doesn't happen with Cap.




The Who's Who didn't make a point of giving hard data like lifting capacity, but it certainly stated that Bats has speant years developing himself to be as good as anyone could get. 

Cap has fought big 450 lb. mooks that he had to outmaneuver rather than outmuscle (he may be in peak human condition, but he's not at maximum human size). Batman has beaten up superhumanly strong bad guys. Nothing conclusive there.

The most conclusive evidence we have is Cap and Bats sparring three times. Two of those instances were a push, and one went to Bats (granted, like most of Marvel Vs. DC, it was kind of a rushed and unsatisfying encounter).

I've had this discussion many of times, and it always boils down to this: some people get it into their heads that peak physical condition is unattainable through training and that it can only be achieved through a "cheat" like the super soldier sauce. However, let's think this out. Cap is not supposed to have powers. Rather, he's at the utmost limit of what a human can be without being superhuman. Yet, if Cap's physical qualities are unattainable without external augmentation, then that by definition is superhuman.


----------



## Black Omega (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I've had this discussion many of times, and it always boils down to this: some people get it into their heads that peak physical condition is unattainable through training and that it can only be achieved through a "cheat" like the super soldier sauce. However, let's think this out. Cap is not supposed to have powers. Rather, he's at the utmost limit of what a human can be without being superhuman. Yet, if Cap's physical qualities are unattainable without external augmentation, then that by definition is superhuman.



When the Super Soldier formula was removed from Cap for a time after Streets of Poison, Cap noted his next fight was tougher because he wasn't as strong or fast as he had been.  He still won, and against top opposition.  But it seemed pretty clear the formula pushed him to another level of physical ability.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 15, 2007)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> When the Super Soldier formula was removed from Cap for a time after Streets of Poison, Cap noted his next fight was tougher because he wasn't as strong or fast as he had been.  He still won, and against top opposition.  But it seemed pretty clear the formula pushed him to another level of physical ability.



Hey, that's a good idea!

Bring back blonde-haired, blue-eyed Steve Rogers only he's addicted to the Super Soldier formula (which only works temporarily because his newly-regenerated body is breaking down the formula rapidly).  

Now that's the man behind the mask. I still can't relate to him, but at least he serve as a cautionary tale.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Is this coming from the Avengers that have all those members that were previously considered too "small-time" to fly around with Cap and Iron man saving the world? The Avengers where everyone who heard about the lineup in advance went "Luke Cage? Spider-Man AND Woman? WOLVERINE??? No way this team will last!" Yet fans fell in love with the book anyway, didn't they? Boy, did you just heave a mountain of evidence against your own position.




Bah.  Cap'll give them the People's Elbow, and all will be right with the world.

Brad


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 16, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Is this coming from the Avengers that have all those members that were previously considered too "small-time" to fly around with Cap and Iron man saving the world? The Avengers where everyone who heard about the lineup in advance went "Luke Cage? Spider-Man AND Woman? WOLVERINE??? No way this team will last!" Yet fans fell in love with the book anyway, didn't they? Boy, did you just heave a mountain of evidence against your own position.




 

There was once the Great Lakes Avengers and heck, the regular Avengers had freakin' Doctor Druid in the lineup and as the head honcho too! There was also Gilgamesh who got killed kind of quick too.

In case you didn't know, Dwayne Johnson = the Rock, who initially was hated by the millions (and millions) of the Rock's fans. The Rock stuff was meant as the new Cap meeting someone like Electro (Spidey says he sucks).

As for the New Avengers, it was Cap that made it work. "If Captain America says you're an Avenger, then you're an Avenger." Ok, not really but he got almost everyone in the group even the "semi cursed" Spider-Man (never stayed part of a team) and kept 'em in, even with bad publicity (Spidey) or shady pasts (Wolverine, Cage and Drew).


----------



## Klaus (Mar 16, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Hey, that's a good idea!
> 
> Bring back blonde-haired, blue-eyed Steve Rogers only he's addicted to the Super Soldier formula (which only works temporarily because his newly-regenerated body is breaking down the formula rapidly).
> 
> Now that's the man behind the mask. I still can't relate to him, but at least he serve as a cautionary tale.



 Making Cap more like Hourman? Or Batman in the "Venom" storyline?

There *is* nothing new under the sun...


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 16, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Making Cap more like Hourman? Or Batman in the "Venom" storyline?
> 
> There *is* nothing new under the sun...



It's new for Cappy.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 16, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> In case you didn't know, Dwayne Johnson = the Rock, who initially was hated by the millions (and millions) of the Rock's fans...



You went off without completing the sentence.

So what? We in Hawaii and Samoa still welcome him. Screw the rest.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 16, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Bring back blonde-haired, blue-eyed Steve Rogers only he's addicted to the Super Soldier formula (which only works temporarily because his newly-regenerated body is breaking down the formula rapidly).




The strangest part about the Streets of Poison storyline was that it took pains to point out that while the Super Soldier Serum provided the initial "boost" Cap needed to get to his level of physical ability, he didn't need it any longer. So long as he continued to engage in his regular intensive exercise regimen, he'd keep his physique and skill. The whole point of that story was that someone had pointed out to Mark Gruenwald that the SSS seemed a bit too much like steroids, and he had it purged from Cap's system as a result to show that it wasn't a drug that Cap needed to keep being Cap.

Of course, they then turned around and demonstrated that his body was replenishing the purged SSS, as it was hardwired into his DNA or something. Weirdest about face I can recall. There was something about the SSS during Mark Waid's run on the title too (dealing with Cap dying), but I'd stopped reading it at that point.

In any case, a drug-addicted Cap would just be a horrible, horrible idea. Leave that sort of thing to Vertigo comics.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Mar 16, 2007)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> There was once the Great Lakes Avengers



To be fair, they werent OFFICIAL Avengers. They just borrowed the Avengers names. They 'borrow' other names as it becomes convenient (And funny) too.

So far we have...
Great Lake Avengers
Lightning Rods
GLX
Great Lake Defenders (For all of 2 minutes)
And currently...
Great Lake Champions.  Although I dont see that lasting much longer if they resurrect the Champions, like I hear they're currently planning.


----------



## jonesy (Mar 16, 2007)

Ahem. Cap isn't dead:

http://www.digg.com/celebrity/Captain_America_is_NOT_Dead_Picture


----------



## kroh (Mar 16, 2007)

jonesy said:
			
		

> Ahem. Cap isn't dead:
> 
> http://www.digg.com/celebrity/Captain_America_is_NOT_Dead_Picture




I personally don't know what to think at this moment as Brubaker is going to put a spin on the story no matter what.  The page that you linked to on digg is for the Initiative one shot.  That statement sets up New Avengers # 28.  

*SPOILER BELOW*



Spoiler



Carol lied to Spider Woman and the Steve Rogers they try to rescue in Issue # 28 is a decoy.  Stark and his cronies show up to reign in the New Avengers.



Regards, 
Walt


----------



## jonesy (Mar 16, 2007)

kroh said:
			
		

> *SPOILER*



Huh.

Oh well.


Staaaaark!


----------



## kroh (Mar 16, 2007)

jonesy said:
			
		

> Huh.
> 
> Oh well.
> 
> ...




LOL!  
Regards, 
Walt


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 16, 2007)

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> Great Lake Champions.  Although I dont see that lasting much longer if they resurrect the Champions, like I hear they're currently planning.




The GL-* will soon be known as the Great Lakes Initiative. They're getting another one-shot this summer featuring themselves and Deadpool, and written by Dan Slott.

At this point, I think they just need to go ahead and make Wade an honorary member, you know?


----------



## wingsandsword (Mar 16, 2007)

Iron Man is a neo-facist villain with Reed Richards as his cohort and the Fantastic 4 have split up, Captain America is dead, Spider Man is publically revealed, and mutants are all but extinct with a few hundred left on Earth. . .

Is it just me or is the Marvel Universe seeming more like a twisted Evil Mirror Universe version of itself?


----------



## Klaus (Mar 16, 2007)

Spoilers for Civil War: The Confession:



Spoiler



Iron Man explains his motivation for all this debacle... to Captain America's corpse.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Mar 16, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Spoilers for Civil War: The Confession:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, don't keep us in suspense. For those of us who want details, what _were_


Spoiler



his stated motivations


?


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 16, 2007)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Is it just me or is the Marvel Universe seeming more like a twisted Evil Mirror Universe version of itself?



Then one would hope for Khan Noonien Singh and his supermen will save the day.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 17, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Spoilers for Civil War: The Confession:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm... 



Spoiler



Again? Between this, Casualties of War, and Civil War and all its tie-ins, we've got about half a dozen motives for Iron Man's involvement in the Registration Act.

[EDIT- Not sure why we're spoilering this, as it's not giving anything away...


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 17, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Leave that sort of thing to Vertigo comics.



Really? I might revive my comic-book hobby with Vertigo.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 17, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Well, don't keep us in suspense. For those of us who want details, what _were_
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



 [sblock] Nothing that makes sense outside of Arkham Asylum. Once, Iron Man and Dr. Doom were fighting, and got transported back in time to Camelot, with Iron Man going all fanboy over King Arthur, whereas Doom helped Morgan Le Fey raise a zombie army (what is it with Marvel and zombies anyway?). And then, as he was fighting alongside King Arthur, Iron Man had one of his "visions of the future": one day it won't be heroes vs. villains, but heroes vs. heroes. When word of the Superhuman Registration Act reached his ears, he knew that was it. He knew how everyone (except Spiderman) would react. He did all he could to make the transition easy. And now that Cap is dead, it was not worth it. [/sblock]


----------



## megamania (Mar 17, 2007)

Many of you are saying Iron man would never do the things he has.  Then why is it in several possibly futures he is the world conqueorer?  In some stories, his armored stooges go galactic.

This makes sense to me even if it kinda sucks.

Reed....He was always a man about practicality.  Would he go this far.... not sure.

Then there is the Hulk when he comes back.  World War Hulk is going to hit hard buuuuut...with the 50+ Avengers teams maybe not as hard as I originally thought.



What gets me in the end is Marvel, and DC to some point, is trying to make comicbooks more real life.  I don't know about you guys, but if I went through 12 issues worth of their storys I would be certifibly koo-koo and more evil than good anyway.

Look at spidey-  Influenced the death of his Uncle.   ouch

Aunt May nearly marries arch enemy... WTF?!?

Constant attacks

Clones....multiple times

Go to space

Go into other dimensions

Learn your first love was slutty and hung out with THE arch enemy

Arch enemy is the father of one of your best friends



now keep in mind teenagers that can be "called" nerds lost it several times and killed classmates.  REAL LIFE.

Just my two cents....


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 17, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> [sblock] Nothing that makes sense outside of Arkham Asylum. Once, Iron Man and Dr. Doom were fighting, and got transported back in time to Camelot, with Iron Man going all fanboy over King Arthur, whereas Doom helped Morgan Le Fey raise a zombie army (what is it with Marvel and zombies anyway?). And then, as he was fighting alongside King Arthur, Iron Man had one of his "visions of the future": one day it won't be heroes vs. villains, but heroes vs. heroes. When word of the Superhuman Registration Act reached his ears, he knew that was it. He knew how everyone (except Spiderman) would react. He did all he could to make the transition easy. And now that Cap is dead, it was not worth it. [/sblock]




Wow.

That's...inane.

Brad


----------



## TwistedBishop (Mar 17, 2007)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Wow.
> 
> That's...inane.
> 
> Brad





I like it actually.  He had a vision of the future, tried to stop it from being that horrible, yet ended up fulfilling his own vision.  Nice and tragic.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 17, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Really? I might revive my comic-book hobby with Vertigo.




You might consider checking out "The Boys" by Garth Ennis, then. It was published by DC's Wildstorm imprint, but will be published by Dynamite now. It revolves around a group of normal humans investigating superheroes, and is sort of a "deconstructionist" kind of story- casting archetypal heroes (ie, thinly veiled Batman, etc.) in sort of twisted roles. Haven't read it myself, but may pick it up in TPB. It's gotten a lot of raves, and reportedly the reason DC decided to drop it is because of the irreverence with which it treats their iconic heroes. Ennis is, of course, the man behind Preacher.

(Warning, that Wiki link has spoilers about the series down the page, so read at your risk).


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 17, 2007)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> I like it actually.  He had a vision of the future, tried to stop it from being that horrible, yet ended up fulfilling his own vision.  Nice and tragic.




One thing I will give props on that story is its reference to continuity. The Doc Doom/Iron Man in King Arthur's time story actually took place (Iron Man #152 or thereabouts, I believe).



			
				megamania said:
			
		

> Many of you are saying Iron man would never do the things he has. Then why is it in several possibly futures he is the world conqueorer? In some stories, his armored stooges go galactic.




I can see Iron Man cooperating and working with the SHRA actually- he did go buckwild during the Armor Wars. I do wish he'd been given some consistent motives, though. He's had about 4 or 5, varying with the whims of the writers.

On the other hand, I am not entirely sure that Cap would have been in support of the SHRA- in some measure anyway. From things I've read, it really sounds like the whole Cap vs. SHRA was editorially mandated just so that Marvel could have Cap vs. Iron Man, regardless of prior characterization, and I think that is pretty lame. Especially considering that Cap has, time and again, rejected young heroes due to their lack of training and experience (Justice got turned down from the Avengers for that reason, Cap recently- and reluctantly- decided to give the Young Avengers training when it was evident that they wouldn't stop heroing when he told them to.) He's always been big on responsibility and accountability.


----------



## megamania (Mar 17, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Especially considering that Cap has, time and again, rejected young heroes due to their lack of training and experience (Justice got turned down from the Avengers for that reason, Cap recently- and reluctantly- decided to give the Young Avengers training when it was evident that they wouldn't stop heroing when he told them to.) He's always been big on responsibility and accountability.




VERY TRUE

The concept was incredible but there are two problems with it-

Many heroes were "forced" into a slot to keep it "balanced" and "even".  and two...NOW WHAT?!?

This is not something you can just ignore and bring 180 degrees back to before without Scarlet Witch snapping (yaaaawn....again).  There are many interesting stories to be told this way but at what cost?

They saw how well recieved Ultimate series was with the government taking a stronger stand on super beings being registered but they may have taken it too far.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 17, 2007)

Well I guess I was the only one who wanted to see Marvel's distinctly candy-coated "Civil War" become a more real sort of conflict.  Based on opinions I doubt it will go that way, but I rather hoped to see EVERYONE(normal and super) turn on the government from both sides.  

Actual large scale fighting between pro and anti-regulation forces and an actual revolution.  Preferably one where Iron Man was ripped out of his armor and beheaded, Stark Enterprises nuked along with outer D.C.  Preferably Hulk returning and destroying most of the Eastern seaboard indescriminately.  Xavier's hypocritical self killed, and at least one panel of a burning Washington framing politicians impaled on the wrought iron fence of the White House.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 17, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> One thing I will give props on that story is its reference to continuity. The Doc Doom/Iron Man in King Arthur's time story actually took place (Iron Man #152 or thereabouts, I believe).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Precisely.

Captain America, IMHO, would be 100% in favor of an official, trained and funded superhuman army corps. I mean, he signed in for one in the 40s (but turned out to be the only recruit available).

The ones against it would be those who must keep secret identities from myriad foes (Daredevil, Spiderman, etc) or those who hate being bossed over (Thor, Hercules, Hulk).


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Mar 17, 2007)

I think that Cap would have been opposed to certain aspects of the SHRA- the draft/conscription parts, certainly (except in cases of war), and I think- like Tony is portrayed as in the end of Civil War- Cap would have been very leery about who he would be willing to have access to superhuman identities. But overall, I think he would have been in favor of the legislation that brought some more accountability to superhumans, and provided them with effective training. Not to keep harping on the point, but to me that is one of the biggest failures of the whole Civil War storyline.

[EDIT- to go on a slight tangent, I think it would have been really cool- had they still been in the 616-verse- to have the Squadron Supreme be involved in things. Hyperion and crew would have raised such an anti-registration movement it wouldn't even have been funny. Not to mention that it would at least have given the Sentry someone to fight, instead of having him do his usual wishy-washiness. Would make for a good What if? story, I think.]


----------



## Felon (Mar 17, 2007)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Actual large scale fighting between pro and anti-regulation forces and an actual revolution.  Preferably one where Iron Man was ripped out of his armor and beheaded, Stark Enterprises nuked along with outer D.C.  Preferably Hulk returning and destroying most of the Eastern seaboard indescriminately.  Xavier's hypocritical self killed, and at least one panel of a burning Washington framing politicians impaled on the wrought iron fence of the White House.



OK, you have issues....just wanted to make you aware of that.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 18, 2007)

It's not so much "issues" as you put as a desire that the nature of civil strife not be sugar-coated like they're doing with this "Civil War" plotline.  I've seen just how nasty Civil Wars and revolutions really get, and I'd prefer that people not be given cutesy ideas that they're anything but a horrible bloody mess.  Especially if you throw super-human individuals in to the conflict.


----------



## Felon (Mar 18, 2007)

OK, people are a mess. Most of them are trying to dominate and kill each other, and those civilized folk who are removed from the conflict just want to stick their heads in the sand somewhere out in the burbs with their trophy spouse and 2.5 kids...and play D&D to escape from how boring all of that is.

Now, granting all that, am I better or worse off for not actually _wanting_ to see people beheaded or impaled, be it in a comic or reality?


----------



## jonesy (Mar 19, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Now, granting all that, am I better or worse off for not actually _wanting_ to see people beheaded or impaled, be it in a comic or reality?



Not wanting to see it makes you sane. But wanting to see it doesn't automatically make you insane. _That_ depends entirely on how firm your grasp on the concepts and differences of *reality* and *fantasy* really are. I mean, I actually enjoy the Re-Animator films for their gore. But if I saw something like that in Real Life I'd puke my brains out (figuratively, one hopes).


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 19, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Now, granting all that, am I better or worse off for not actually _wanting_ to see people beheaded or impaled, be it in a comic or reality?



Depends on what kind of people we're talking about.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Mar 19, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> The GL-* will soon be known as the Great Lakes Initiative. They're getting another one-shot this summer featuring themselves and Deadpool, and written by Dan Slott.



...hahaha.  Should have seen THAT coming.  I think they mentioned they were planning one GL* title a year, glad to see it happening. Are they  an OFFICIAL 'Iniative' team, or are they borrowing names again?  Considering DD Dougan seems to have a good opinion on Squirrel Girl, I wouldnt put it past them to make them 'Official', if not a backwater for the D-list heroes.

EDIT: After looking over the Initiative cover that's all over the web, I can see the GL(Insert Letter Here) in the upper right corner. So it looks like it's official.  Go Squirrel Girl!

Considering what happened the LAST time the GL* faced Deadpoll, I cant wait to see what happens. That and I need more Squirrel Girl.   
"You Dirty, Naughty Man!"



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> You might consider checking out The Boys"[/URL] by Garth Ennis, then.and reportedly the reason DC decided to drop it is because of the irreverence with which it treats their iconic heroes.



 I'd warn you that this series is filled with sex and violence though. (In fact, that's why I heard it was dropped from DC)  If that turns you off, avoid it.  I thought it was funny, myself.


----------



## frankthedm (Mar 26, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> HA HA HA HA HA!!!
> 
> 
> Thats funny...  I hope that will not last more than two issues cause Punisher looks goofy in that outfit.  Besides that, the last person I would want to become a personification of the the american ideals is the punisher...



Well, Punishercap might be marvel's commentary ON amercian ideals and actions...


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## frankthedm (Mar 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, you have issues....just wanted to make you aware of that.



 If he has issues, then I have the subscription. 

When the Hulk punches somone, they should burst like a ballon full of strawberry jello.


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## kroh (Mar 26, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> If he has issues, then I have the subscription.
> 
> When the Hulk punches somone, they should burst like a ballon full of strawberry jello.




Yep...funniest thing I have heard all day... Gold star for you!

Regards, 
Walt


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