# IG's Scales of War [OOC]



## industrygothica (Aug 3, 2008)

I'll separate the IC threads by adventure, the first being Rescue at Rivenroar.  The OOC and RG threads should keep throughout the entire adventure path though, unless they just get too big and need purging.

In any case, here's the official OOC thread.

RG


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## industrygothica (Aug 3, 2008)

Shayuri, would you mind giving a breakdown of the points you spent on your ability scores?  My math shows you've shorted yourself, but then I've never been a math wizard either.  I just want to make sure you're getting what you're due.


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## Shayuri (Aug 4, 2008)

The 4e system of point buy is kind of weird, so yeah, lets make sure I did it right. Here's my scores:

Str: 14 [+2], Dex: 18 [+4], Wis: 14 [+2]
Con: 12 [+1], Int: 10 [10], Cha: 9 [-1]

As I understand it, that's:

Str 5 points for 14
Dex 9 pts for 16 (then boosted by racial bonus to 18)
Con 2 pts for 12
Int 0 pts for 10
Wis 5 pts for 14
Cha 1 pt for 9 (this one started at 8)

Total is...22 pts, which is the standard given in the PHB.
Oh heck, I see what I did wrong. I forgot that elves get +2 to Wisdom too. Hee hee. I may switch the 14 to Con then, and then take 12 in Wis, which will boost to 14...


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## industrygothica (Aug 4, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> The 4e system of point buy is kind of weird, so yeah, lets make sure I did it right. Here's my scores:
> 
> Str: 14 [+2], Dex: 18 [+4], Wis: 14 [+2]
> Con: 12 [+1], Int: 10 [10], Cha: 9 [-1]
> ...




Works for me.


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## agentbeige (Aug 4, 2008)

Can I get in on this game?  I've never done one of these before and it looks fun.


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## industrygothica (Aug 5, 2008)

agentbeige said:


> Can I get in on this game?  I've never done one of these before and it looks fun.




We're a bit full right now, as I don't want to take anymore than five characters because that's what the adventure is designed for.  If you want to stick around and follow along though, I'll be happy to consider you for an alternate when the time comes (and it almost always does, eventually).


-IG


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## renau1g (Aug 5, 2008)

agentbeige said:


> Can I get in on this game?  I've never done one of these before and it looks fun.




agentbiege,

Your best bet is to look for threads that have recruiting in the title, those are ones that are looking for new players. OOC threads are ones for games that are either on the go, or just about to start, and for the players to have out of character discussions about the game.


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## renau1g (Aug 5, 2008)

P.S. I posted my sheet in the RG


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## industrygothica (Aug 5, 2008)

renau1g said:


> P.S. I posted my sheet in the RG




I saw.  I think we're just waiting on one more now.  I should have the first IC post up shortly thereafter.


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 6, 2008)

My character is up. Sorry for the delay (Enworld has beed SLOW! 
Cheers,

SG


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## renau1g (Aug 6, 2008)

I hope this isn't indicitive of the future.... it was actually running there for a bit and now I've lost 1/2 dozen posts today.


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## The Digger (Aug 6, 2008)

I'd just written a post to say, glibly, that although I've had regular problems getting on to the site I hadn't lost any posts then, when trying to post, I lost both site and post.  I haven't said anything to date as I assumed that it was my computer - although most other sites I visit do not seem to have the same problems - but I now klnow that others are experiencing the same hassles.

This is getting to be a too regular occurrance so is there anything that can be done?


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## renau1g (Aug 6, 2008)

Well, they are aware of it and I believe stonegod mentioned it was an issue with SQL database (or something along those lines, I'm not a techie, unfortunately) that they're struggling with.

In the near-term I'd just suggest copying every post before submitting (not the optimal solution, but a necessary effort)


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## industrygothica (Aug 6, 2008)

renau1g said:


> Well, they are aware of it and I believe stonegod mentioned it was an issue with SQL database (or something along those lines, I'm not a techie, unfortunately) that they're struggling with.
> 
> In the near-term I'd just suggest copying every post before submitting (not the optimal solution, but a necessary effort)




Indeed, I c&p everything--especially the long ones--into a notepad file on my desktop before I save.  Unfortunately it took me more than once for that lesson to sink in...

Now that all the characters are up (I haven't had a chance to look them all over in detail, so feel free to help each other out, please), I'll start working on the first post and get it up in the next day or so.


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## industrygothica (Aug 7, 2008)

The IC thread is up!

IG's SoW: Rescue at Rivenroar


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## industrygothica (Aug 8, 2008)

Mr. Gorak, you still with us?  Just want to make sure before I set up the scene.


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## industrygothica (Aug 9, 2008)

I meant to ask this earlier, but I forgot.  I need everyone to add an sblock to their character sheets called "Wish List."  In this sblock I need to to place three to five items no higher than 5th level that your character would be interested in.    These lists will help me fill the treasure parcels throughout the adventure and help ensure that everyone gets something they can use.

There's more info on this system in the DMG (age 125, if I recall) if you're interested in the research.

Let me know here in the OOC thread when you've done this so I can log it please.


-IG


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## garyh (Aug 9, 2008)

Brega's wish list added in the character thread!


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 10, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Mr. Gorak, you still with us?  Just want to make sure before I set up the scene.




Definitely still here. I posted yesterday night, but my message timed out (@$#@%#). I posted again tonight and waited to see that my post "stuck". 
Cheers,

SG


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## renau1g (Aug 11, 2008)

Updated RG for wishlist items.


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## Shayuri (Aug 11, 2008)

My wishlist is added too.


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## industrygothica (Aug 11, 2008)

Thanks.

I"ll try to get an update up in the next day or so.  Working six 12-hour days a week, it's tough to get an update in sometimes.


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## industrygothica (Aug 12, 2008)

For reference...



			
				From recruitment thread said:
			
		

> Posting guidelines:
> 
> DM updates will be slow, and dependent upon time and connectivity. Typically if it takes longer than 60 seconds to load I give up and go to bed.
> 
> ...


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## garyh (Aug 12, 2008)

Got it, boss!


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## industrygothica (Aug 12, 2008)

I realized before I posted it that there is a good chance that my above post could be taken as sarcastic and a bit snobbish, but rest assured that it was not meant that way.  Sometimes we, myself included, lose sight of the original intent and need a reminder of the small details after we get wrapped up in the heat of the game.

Just wanted to get that out there before anyone thinks I'm intentionally trying to be a jerk.  

I'm not trying... sometimes it just comes naturally. 


-IG


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## garyh (Aug 12, 2008)

No problems here.  Recruitment and getting going took awhile, I forgot the roll rules, and since you started a new OOC thread after the recruiting thread, I didn't have them easily at hand to check before posting.  Having those guidelines in this thread is helpful.


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## renau1g (Aug 13, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I"ll try to get an update up in the next day or so.  Working six 12-hour days a week, it's tough to get an update in sometimes.




Take your time IG, I'm sure we'd rather a slightly slower paced game than one where you don't have the time to keep up with.


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## industrygothica (Aug 15, 2008)

renau1g said:


> Take your time IG, I'm sure we'd rather a slightly slower paced game than one where you don't have the time to keep up with.




_Slightly slower_?  Heh.. this one's almost at a snail's pace.  I haven't abandoned you though, so fear not.  I manages to update my other game tonight, but being that it's 3am here on my only night off... I don't feel like sleeping alone, so that's where I'm headed.

Barring the size of the honey-do list tomorrow, I should be able to update tomorrow before I get ready for another six day stretch.

Thanks for being patient with me, it's duly noted.  I should be able to keep a fairly regular pace after school starts in a couple of weeks.

See you tomorrow--or later today, as the case may be.


-IG


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## industrygothica (Aug 20, 2008)

Steve Gorak said:
			
		

> Note: please add +1 to attack roll if cursed goblin H5 dies




Remind me where this ability is coming from, please?  I'm not finding it right off...


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 21, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Remind me where this ability is coming from, please?  I'm not finding it right off...




Warlock star pact boon: cummulative +1 to one roll per cursed ennemy that die. I'm being strategic here, cursing a foe that will likely fall to get a bonus on the attack roll


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## industrygothica (Aug 21, 2008)

Steve Gorak said:


> Warlock star pact boon: cummulative +1 to one roll per cursed ennemy that die. I'm being strategic here, cursing a foe that will likely fall to get a bonus on the attack roll




Thanks, got it.  Quite a handy power, really... especially if you had a rod of corruption to go along with it.

Speaking of which, I still don't have a wish list from you, either.


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## renau1g (Aug 21, 2008)

It's because Steve/Gorak wants to give his items to me


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 22, 2008)

renau1g said:


> It's because Steve/Gorak wants to give his items to me




you wish! 
I've been procrastinating...I need to read up one 4e magic items (a rather daunting task!). I'll work on it this weekend and draft up something decent by next week.
Cheers,

SG


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 22, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Thanks, got it.  Quite a handy power, really... especially if you had a rod of corruption to go along with it.




I just finished my list. Holy smokes!!! I sooooo want a rod of corruption
Cheers,

SG


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## industrygothica (Aug 22, 2008)

Steve Gorak:

I may be wrong, but that's why this is a learning process for all of us.  But the way I read it, there may be some issues with your character sheet (outside of wanting three rods of corruption  ).

In one of their handier endeavors, Wizards has developed the D&D Compendium, and that's what I'll be quoting from here.



> Arcane Initiate [Multiclass Wizard]
> 
> Prerequisite: Int 13
> Benefit: You gain training in the Arcana skill.
> ...




You seem to have chosen two: Scorching Burst and Thunderwave.

Also, Arcane Implement Mastery--in this case, Staff of Defense--is a wizard class feature.  I don't read where the Arcane Initiate feat grants you class features of the wizard class; it only allows you a per encounter use of an at will wizard power (and the ability to use a wizard implement to deliver it), and grants you training in the Arcana skill.

So basically, the way I see it is that you have two too many encounter powers: one being the Staff of Defense you have listed, and the other being either Thunderwave or Scorching Burst.

Thusly, I used your eldritch blast to take out one of the hobgoblins instead of the scorching burst, since I didn't know which you wanted to keep, that or thunderwave.

If I'm wrong here, please don't be offended.  As I said, we're all learning here (unless one of you is secretly a 4e designer or something, in which case you need to speak up and educate us all!).  I'd appreciate feedback from the rest of the group as well so hopefully we can get all squared away.  Sorry it's taken me this long to notice it.


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## Shayuri (Aug 22, 2008)

Isn't he a half-elf? Maybe he snagged one via Dilettante?


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 22, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Isn't he a half-elf? Maybe he snagged one via Dilettante?




You're right on Shayuri. One was from the wizard multiclass feat, and the other was from being a half elf (dilettante racial ability). So, I should be able to keep both thunderwave and scorching burst, giving my character some controller abilities, which our party needs.



industrygothica said:


> Also, Arcane Implement Mastery--in this case, Staff of Defense--is a wizard class feature.  I don't read where the Arcane Initiate feat grants you class features of the wizard class; it only allows you a per encounter use of an at will wizard power (and the ability to use a wizard implement to deliver it), and grants you training in the Arcana skill.
> 
> So basically, the way I see it is that you have two too many encounter powers: one being the Staff of Defense you have listed, and the other being either Thunderwave or Scorching Burst.




As much as it pains me to say this, I believe you're right for the staff of defense. I got really exited about the nice "optimization" of having a constitution based warlock with a staff of defense (imagine: +4 onec per encounter). However, I re-read (several times !!!  the feat description and tried to find someting "official" but it's clear, the wizard implement can be used, but there is no mention of having access to the "arcane implement mastery" wizard class feature (dooh!!!). So, I'll update my character sheet, and decrease Elias' AC by one and removing the encounter power.

One thing I really appreciate about 4e is that they've really balanced the classes out. It's hard to find "loopholes"... I thought I had found something close to one with the con based warlock multiclass wizard, but alas, I was wrong.

Anyway, this resolves the problem of weilding both a staff of defence and a (or maybe three!) rods of corruption 

Cheers,

SG


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## industrygothica (Aug 22, 2008)

Excellent.  I'm glad that's cleared up.  And thanks, Shayuri, for helping out.  Looks like Steve and I both learned something today.

Now there is the question of what to do IC.  We can leave it like it is, with Elias obliterating one of the hobgoblins with the eldritch blast, or I can go back and edit in the scorching blast instead.  If we go the second route, you'll need to roll a second attack for the second hobgoblin.


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## garyh (Aug 22, 2008)

IG, I hthink you forgot to include Brega's more cautious move action:


> *Move action: head south of the table and as close to H5 as possible.*
> Standard action: attack H5 with throwing hammer, marking him.
> 
> 1d20+6;1d6+5 ? [12,6] = (18)
> ...




Brega should not be behind the table still, but closer to where H8 is (and possibly changing H8's movement or provoking an OA).


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## industrygothica (Aug 22, 2008)

garyh said:


> IG, I hthink you forgot to include Brega's more cautious move action:
> 
> 
> Brega should not be behind the table still, but closer to where H8 is (and possibly changing H8's movement or provoking an OA).




Gah!  I really hate screwing up, but I'm so very good at it!

What you don't know is that I forgot Peregrine's movement too, and had to go back and edit the map when I found it.  Unfortunately I'm just about out the door for another stretch of overtime and don't have time to fix it just now.  At least I got it in the narrative...

But you're right, that would severely alter not only h8's movement, but h7's as well: they'd be surrounding Brega right now instead of Illian. 

I'll try to make time to get it fixed in the morning, and give Illian his 5 hp back.  Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


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## garyh (Aug 23, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Gah!  I really hate screwing up, but I'm so very good at it!
> 
> What you don't know is that I forgot Peregrine's movement too, and had to go back and edit the map when I found it.  Unfortunately I'm just about out the door for another stretch of overtime and don't have time to fix it just now.  At least I got it in the narrative...
> 
> ...




No problem.  As for Brega being surrounded and hit, hey, that's his job.


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## industrygothica (Aug 23, 2008)

Scratch that - I found a few minutes, and EN World cooperated with me, so it's all fixed.

As for Peregrine's OA, he missed.  It'll be in the narrative for next round.


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## garyh (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm having trouble connecting to invisiblecastle.com.   I'll post Brega's actions when I can roll.  FWIW, he'll be cleaving.


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## Steve Gorak (Aug 23, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Excellent.  I'm glad that's cleared up.  And thanks, Shayuri, for helping out.  Looks like Steve and I both learned something today.
> 
> Now there is the question of what to do IC.  We can leave it like it is, with Elias obliterating one of the hobgoblins with the eldritch blast, or I can go back and edit in the scorching blast instead.  If we go the second route, you'll need to roll a second attack for the second hobgoblin.




Lets keep things simple and continue with what has happened. Elias will keep his scorching burst for the next round. Also, I'll roll a bunch of attack rolls in case they are necessary for the Aoe.
Cheers,

SG


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## industrygothica (Aug 26, 2008)

garyh - if you want to go ahead and post Brega's actions, I'll roll for you if IC is still down.

Saturday was probably my last day of real overtime, though I'm going to try to sneak in a bit more next week if I can get them to let me in the orientation cass (after working there for 12 years  ).  Also school started today both for the wife and the kids, so theorhetically I should have a bit more time to post.

Now we still have to overcome the motivation and connectivity issues... not necessarily in that order.


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## garyh (Aug 26, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> garyh - if you want to go ahead and post Brega's actions, I'll roll for you if IC is still down.
> 
> Saturday was probably my last day of real overtime, though I'm going to try to sneak in a bit more next week if I can get them to let me in the orientation cass (after working there for 12 years  ).  Also school started today both for the wife and the kids, so theorhetically I should have a bit more time to post.
> 
> Now we still have to overcome the motivation and connectivity issues... not necessarily in that order.




IC is back up!  Brega has acted and rolled.  And glad to hear we may speed up a bit soon!


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## The Digger (Sep 4, 2008)

> And glad to hear we may speed up a bit soon




Wouldn't that be nice!!


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## Shayuri (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey, just got the word down the pike that Industrygothica had a RL emergency rear its ugly head. He estimates returning to normal posting in about a week though.

Don't lose heart!


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## renau1g (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up Shay!


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## Steve Gorak (Sep 5, 2008)

renau1g said:


> Thanks for the heads up Shay!




Yeah, thanks for the heads up.
I would really hate for this game to die...
Cheers,

SG


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## industrygothica (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm not back yet, but I managed to find time to stop in at my mother's house for long enough to get this message posted.  I still don't have internet access at my house yet, but I'll hopefully get that resolved next week.

The only way this game will die is if you guys lose patience with me in getting back on track.  I fully plan on resuming both this game, and my _Those Left Behind_ game as well.  I do appreciate your patience, and profusely apologize for real life.

See you all soon enough...


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## renau1g (Sep 15, 2008)

I sure hope that Ike didn't affect you too much IG.


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## industrygothica (Sep 15, 2008)

renau1g said:


> I sure hope that Ike didn't affect you too much IG.




I'm up in North Texas near the Oklahoma border, so all we got was some wind and a few sprinkles of rain.  The weather's cooled off beautifully though, almost like a tease of Autumn.  For the record, the Fall season here usually lasts all of three days before we move into winter.  One would think that Texas winters wouldn't be all bad.

One would be mistaken...

I do appreciate your thought; thank you.


-IG


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## garyh (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm still here, I'm just waiting to see what Peregrine does before Brega acts.

Glad you're doing alright, IG.


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## The Digger (Sep 24, 2008)

I'm away on holiday for the next four days out of internet contact.  I'll be back Sunday evening so I'll post then.  Try to keep me from burning!


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## industrygothica (Oct 8, 2008)

I was mistaken in that Peregrine doesn't actually have 2 temporary hit points anymore.  Apparently they go bye-bye after a rest, so he's at 25 of 27 with no reserve now.


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## industrygothica (Oct 10, 2008)

Steve-  Do you have a power that lets you re-roll initiative?  I must've missed it if you do.

As you can see in the last narrative, I rolled initiative for both Illian and Elias since it had been a few days since I called for it.  Lord knows I understand all about not being able to get right on and post.  So Elias's initiative is actually 9, unless, of course, you want to delay and act on 4 instead.  But unless you have something that let's you re-roll, it'll remain at 9 throughout the remainder of the encounter... unless I'm just missing something somewhere.


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## industrygothica (Oct 15, 2008)

- The Digger:

FYI: Radiant Delirium is a Reflex attack, not Will.  It's a hit regardless, but I thought you might want to know for future references.

You guys are doing some impressive damage to this ogre.


-IG


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## industrygothica (Oct 17, 2008)

Mr. Gorak:


			
				Core Update v.3 8/11/08[b said:
			
		

> Warlock’s Curse [Revision/Addition]
> Player’s Handbook, page 131[/b]
> Replace the third sentence of the first paragraph with the following: “If you hit a
> cursed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage.”
> ...




I read this as only being able to deal Warlock's Curse damage to one target per round, regardless of how many targets are cursed. 

Also, you need to make a separate attack roll for each target in the area of effect of your _scorching burst_ power.  Use a single damage roll (interesting choice, btw; should be interesting to see how it plays out).

So, to break it down, you need: three attack rolls, one damage roll, chose recipient of Warlock's Curse damage--in that order.


TO EVERYTONE:  It's been over a week since we've seen actions from Illian and Brega.  I can continue to npc them while we wait, or we can recruit more.  If we chose to wait, we need to decide for how long until we recruit replacements.  I knew when we started this that we'd go through players here and there--I think I even mentioned it in the recruiting post, so it's not a big deal, but it's something we need to talk about nonetheless.  I also think that active players should be involved in the recruiting process; I'll likely leave it up to a vote between the three of you and I'll tiebreak if I have to.


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## Shayuri (Oct 17, 2008)

I think he did roll damage for the Burst, he just needs to roll the attacks.

As for the waywards, have they been absent from the boards entirely? Or have they been logging on, but not posting?

If they've been logging on, try putting a "Calling (Names)" in the OOC thread title for a few days. Then if they continue to not post, at least you tried.

If they haven't been on the boards at all, you can probably open recruiting with a clear conscience. With no warning of absence, we have no way to know when, or if, they'll be back. And recruiting can take time too.


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## industrygothica (Oct 17, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> I think he did roll damage for the Burst, he just needs to roll the attacks.
> 
> As for the waywards, have they been absent from the boards entirely? Or have they been logging on, but not posting?
> 
> ...




renau1g hasn't had any activity in over a week--we were wondering about him in our Kombat Kraziness game as well (speaking of which, I think there's a spot open now, if you're still interested in that).

garyh's last activity was 11 minutes ago, according to his profile page.  I'll change the title like you said, and see what we see.


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## Steve Gorak (Oct 17, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Mr. Gorak:
> 
> 
> I read this as only being able to deal Warlock's Curse damage to one target per round, regardless of how many targets are cursed.
> ...




Shucks! this decreases the potency of warlocks... I was drooling on the idea of eventually using a rod of disruption + a wizard's AoE attack... Oh well, that's life!
Cheers,

SG


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## garyh (Oct 17, 2008)

My wife has decided to run this adventure path for our home group (she's never DMed before, I'm so proud!  ), so I think Brega will be bowing out of this adventure.  My apologies, but at least the group has another defender in Peregrine, and you're still in Brindol, so another adventurer could join up fairly easily.


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## Shayuri (Oct 17, 2008)

Doh, sorry to see you go, GaryH.

Steve, I think that's the point. If the warlock curse can apply to multiple targets, that makes it quite a lot better than sneak attack and hunter's quarry, which are the equivalent abilities for other strikers. 

IG - Kombat Kraziness seems neat, but I just can't get into a game that's all combat and no RP or development. 

Thanks though!


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## industrygothica (Oct 17, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Doh, sorry to see you go, GaryH.
> 
> Steve, I think that's the point. If the warlock curse can apply to multiple targets, that makes it quite a lot better than sneak attack and hunter's quarry, which are the equivalent abilities for other strikers.
> 
> ...




The Warlock's curse, IMO, does have the advantage in that you can curse multiple targets at once, but you can only do extra damage to one of those targets.  The advantage is that you don't have to spend another minor action to designate another quarry, or ensure you have combat advantage to make a sneak attack.  There are feats and items that will enable you to curse near an entire battlefield within the first few rounds, making your enemies hope and pray that they're not the ones you chose to focus on next.

Yes, the KK game is unique like that, though I think there is a bit more roleplaying than was originally intended, to be honest.  I can't play a dwarf and not do it without the accent. 

Sorry to see you go, Gary, but thanks for the notice.  Good luck to your wife!  I wish I could get mine involved.


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## garyh (Oct 17, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Sorry to see you go, Gary, but thanks for the notice.  Good luck to your wife!  I wish I could get mine involved.




Thanks, and good luck with the game, everyone!  And yes, I realize I'm very lucky that my wife is into D&D (she's played in campaigns I've ran before, too).


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## industrygothica (Oct 17, 2008)

New recruiting thread.  I'd like your input on prospective players, please.


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## industrygothica (Oct 21, 2008)

Any preferences?  This should be a group effort, I think.


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## Steve Gorak (Oct 21, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Any preferences?  This should be a group effort, I think.




IMO, it be simple if the selected candidate picks up Brega. It would make the transition more continuous.
Just a thought.
Cheers,

SG


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## industrygothica (Oct 21, 2008)

Steve Gorak said:


> IMO, it be simple if the selected candidate picks up Brega. It would make the transition more continuous.
> Just a thought.
> Cheers,
> 
> SG




I'm inclined to agree, but I'm also considering going ahead and picking up a second to replace ren while we're at it.


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## Erekose13 (Oct 23, 2008)

Thank you for accepting my application to join. I'm happy to pick up in garyh's place and hope to fill it as well as he.  I'll catch up and post his next action against the ogre in short time.  Regarding the other recruits, personally I've gamed with both stonegod and evolutionKB before (and am currently running a game with both of them actually). Either would be a good addition to the group.  SG brings a controller which could help and evoKB a warlord which would be good to replace renau1g.


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## industrygothica (Oct 24, 2008)

Anyone else have any input or preferences?  I'd like to make a decision today if at all possible.


-IG


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## Shayuri (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, given that no one submitted a cleric that I remember, we would probably want the warlord as one of the new hires. Someone who can trigger healing surges is a really good thing.

Apart from that, they all pretty good. I am well pleased.


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## The Digger (Oct 24, 2008)

I second the request for a cleric or warlord.  Very needed in most cases.


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## industrygothica (Oct 24, 2008)

Vada Vosa (I think) submitted a dwarven cleric. It was the last entry, complete with stats and a background, I believe.


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## stonegod (Oct 25, 2008)

Jormund posted.


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## industrygothica (Nov 2, 2008)

Ok, so I've never run a skill challenge here (or anywhere, for that matter) before, nor have I seen one run.  We'll try to wing through it, but if you've got any suggestions I'm all ears.


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## stonegod (Nov 2, 2008)

industrygothica said:


> Ok, so I've never run a skill challenge here (or anywhere, for that matter) before, nor have I seen one run.  We'll try to wing through it, but if you've got any suggestions I'm all ears.



L4W has run a few. Here's one.


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## industrygothica (Nov 2, 2008)

stonegod said:


> L4W has run a few. Here's one.




Wonderful information, thank you.  I'm going go have to get into one of those living games eventually.


-IG


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## Shayuri (Nov 2, 2008)

Yeah...the thing with skill challenges is that they don't really translate well into RP until they're done.

And if -everyone- tries to make skill checks, we will fail it FAST.

I think we need to resolve the Skill Challenge in the OOC thread, including working out who will make what rolls. Then we can post the results in the IC thread as a summary of the IC events that the Skill Challenge represented.

Holy HELL? SIX successes before THREE failures? And now it's six before two.

These freaking rules are on crack.

The odds of winning this at this point...even assuming any of us are decent at these skills (I know I'm not)...are pretty freaking slim. Low rolls are very commonplace on Invisible Castle.


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## industrygothica (Nov 2, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Yeah...the thing with skill challenges is that they don't really translate well into RP until they're done.
> 
> And if -everyone- tries to make skill checks, we will fail it FAST.
> 
> I think we need to resolve the Skill Challenge in the OOC thread, including working out who will make what rolls. Then we can post the results in the IC thread as a summary of the IC events that the Skill Challenge represented.




That's doable as well.  Who's going to do what?


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## Erekose13 (Nov 3, 2008)

Brega has no appreciable diplomatic skills so he'll use an aid another action to help someone with Insight checks.  I would help with Jormund's roll, if thats possible. This is where initiative in skill challenges comes in.

aid another insight (1d20 3=11)

Skill challenges are much easier now that the errata changes the DCs to 5/10/15 for easy/moderate/hard.  Source


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## stonegod (Nov 3, 2008)

I'd recommend the paladin focus on Diplomacy, maybe with one of the other talkers as aiders/other rollers. The warlock and I can focus on Insight and History checks (we both have it) with one of us aiding the other. Now sure if there are other useful skills.


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## industrygothica (Nov 4, 2008)

You're 1 and 1 now.  Keep in mind that a history check can only be made once, and I'll give a +2 bonus to anyone who uses it that has mention of the events of the Red Hand in their character background.


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## The Digger (Nov 4, 2008)

That's a real pity! I have the Red Hand as the momentous event in my childhood. Unfortunately adding your +2 to my -1 History don'r help a great deal.

Dare I suggest that the Council's forgetfulness about the earlier heroes causes Peregrine to lose his temper with them. Then I could have a little rant and try Intimidate with the +2 for the background? That would give me +11! 

And if anyone else has History I would suggest using Aid Another.

Peregrine's relevant skills
Bluff +4                        Diplomacy +9 (T)   Insight  +2         
Intimidate +9 (T)          Nature +2               Perception  +2                  
Religion +4 (T)              Streetwise +4        

 
[sblock=Red Hand]
Peregrine Thistledown was a small child when the Hobgoblin army of the Red Hand attacked Elsir Vale. His parents, who earned their living as traders along the shores of Lake Restin and in the Black Fens, fled before the ravening hordes who suddenly burst out of the Witchwood heading towards Drellin’s Ferry. The column of refugees, of which they were a part, were attacked by fire-breathing hounds and by heavily armed hobgoblin warriors as they made for the old bridge over the river. All seemed lost, and many did indeed fall in the onslaught, but salvation was at hand. A band of heroes erupted from the forest and held off the enemy long enough for the bridge to be destroyed.

The remnants of the column carried on south and young Peregrine gazed admiringly on those he saw as almost God-like, the heroes who had saved him and his family. One in particular caught his fancy, a young human warrior who bore the symbol of an upright sword upon his shield. He had something about him; a kind of glow which seemed more than mortal, but he still spoke to the child and played with him almost as an equal.

But then disaster struck! Oh Woe! A green dragon attacked and wreaked mayhem on the refugees. Dozens more fell and the end seemed in sight but the valiant heroes stood firm and took the fight to this implacable enemy, aided by the braver of the refugees. After a ferocious fight the enemy was defeated but at what a cost! Peregrine’s father fell, sword in hand, his mother was blinded by the breath of the dragon and even the gallant blonde hero, the subject of Peregrine’s adoration breathed his last.

Although still just a small child Peregrine vowed, there and then, that when he grew up he would stand in the place of these fallen heroes and win his own glory, dedicating his life to remembering their deeds and their deaths. He discovered later that the young hero had been a paladin of Kord and so decided that the least he could do was to become the same. And now, years later, he was setting out on his own path of glory.[/sblock]


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## industrygothica (Nov 4, 2008)

The Digger said:


> That's a real pity! I have the Red Hand as the momentous event in my childhood. Unfortunately adding your +2 to my -1 History don'r help a great deal.
> 
> Dare I suggest that the Council's forgetfulness about the earlier heroes causes Peregrine to lose his temper with them. Then I could have a little rant and try Intimidate with the +2 for the background? That would give me +11!
> 
> ...




If you want to use the +2 bonus on an intimidate check, I'll allow it.  Remember, you're only talking to one man right now, not the entire town council.


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## The Digger (Nov 4, 2008)

> Remember, you're only talking to one man right now, not the entire town council.




I realise that. It's just a thought that the normally imperturbable Peregrine should lose his temper because of those %$£^%£^ pen-pushers! He's not at all angry with the Councilman, he seems a worthy, upright man.

Anyway I'll hang on in case anyone wants to 'Aid Another'.
Stupid me!  How can anyone aid me if I'm just getting angry!  Please forget the above.

PS Can you tell us what the DC is?

BTW I've only just noticed the use of AA in combat situations. Has anyone tried it at all? You only need to hit AC10 in order to either give a +2 bonus to a friends attack (max of +8) OR give +2 to all defences (max +8). Sounds fantastic in a hard fight against a tough solo.


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## The Digger (Nov 5, 2008)

Going with Shayuri's suggestion Peregrine will go with Intimidat.  I only rolled 11 however.  With the +2 for background that's still only 13 (I'm really getting to hate IC!)

So I'm relying on the fact that the Councilman needs us and that the DC isn't TOO high!

Are we going to do this in Initiative order and if so what is that order?


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## Shayuri (Nov 5, 2008)

Okay, I think we butchered this well and truly.

In the future, this is how I suggest we do things:

1) IG declares skill challenge in IC thread, and maps out what we can know of what skills and difficulties and other stuff.

2) We all decide in the OOC thread who will use what skill, and who will aid another in what skill. We do this -before anyone rolls-.

3) We make the appropriate rolls and post them in the OOC thread.

4) IG updates the IC thread based on the results.

5) We get on with the game.

That's my suggestion.

Thoughts?


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## stonegod (Nov 5, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> Thoughts?



This is where init in a skill challenge comes in; we know who the primary actor is in the round to determine what assists/what not are going to happen. Your method also does not take into account new skills/etc. that dynamical become available during a challenge (and will also be difficult in combat-based challenges). I think something similar where, during my init, I state what I plan to use and then wait a bit for assists/counter suggestions would work similarly in intent to what you describe (and sometimes a character is not going to act the way the player may best wish ).


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## industrygothica (Nov 5, 2008)

I'll agree with Shayuri on the well and truly butchered part...

I didn't require everyone to roll initiative because not everyone HAS to act in a skill challenge.  I can see now how that was a bad idea.

So let's do it this way:

Roll initiative.

High initiative makes skill check in OOC thread.
Subsequent initiatives can either aid a previous PC's check, or try for one of their own... or pass if they have nothing to add that round.

We'll resolve it round by round in the OOC thread, and I'll update each round individually in the IC thread.

Example:

Stonegod uses insight and fails by 3.
Shayuri aids Stonegad and passes, making his check only short by 1.
The Digger hammers the point home with another aid another check and passes, adding another +2 to Stonegod's check, this gaining a success by 1 point.

I think there is a maximum of 2 aid another attempts, so if the Digger's or Shayuri's aid attempt had failed, Stonegod would have earned a failure for the check.

Someone please tell me that makes sense.  If we do it in initiative order AND go ahead and make the checks, each subsequent participant will know what they need to do to gain a success.  I think...


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## Erekose13 (Nov 5, 2008)

Sounds like a plan. Reading over the group skill checks section of the DMG it looks like up to 4 people can contribute to the success of a lead character's attempts.


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## Shayuri (Nov 5, 2008)

...I don't think I see the logic of using initiative.

Suppose I go first, but I don't want to use a skill. I might want to aid another, but since I'm going first I don't know what anyone else is doing. Where does that leave me? I just wait for the next turn? 

I was thinking we should all, OOC, confer and decide who's doing what...be it rolling a skill or aiding or using another skill...or what. We do that for each 'pass,' or round or however time in skill challenges is accounted for. We all decide what we're all going to do, then when we're in agreement, the rolls are made.

But whatever. If people like initiative, fine. As long as we're consistant.


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## industrygothica (Nov 5, 2008)

Shayuri said:


> ...I don't think I see the logic of using initiative.
> 
> Suppose I go first, but I don't want to use a skill. I might want to aid another, but since I'm going first I don't know what anyone else is doing. Where does that leave me? I just wait for the next turn?
> 
> ...




I figure that initiative will give us somewhere to start, at least.  If you're on top in initiative and don't want to make the check, I suppose you can delay and let someone else do the talking, and then aid them if they need it.

Let's try it this way and see how it goes, otherwise we're not going to get anywhere.  On that note, here's the initiative order:

23 Peregrine
20 Brega
18 Elias
10 Aliyas
4 Jormund


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## Erekose13 (Nov 5, 2008)

with no appreciable social skills, Brega can try an untrained aid another insight at +3 or cha-based skill at +0.  Given that I think its a bit silly for a bunch of us to try insight, I'll go with a cha-based skill this round. So the first person who uses a bluff, diplomacy or intimidate gets a +2 (aid another, cha-based (1d20=11))


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## stonegod (Nov 5, 2008)

So, we have one insight and one diplomacy success? What did Insight give us? Diplomacy gave us the possible history bonus.


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## industrygothica (Nov 5, 2008)

stonegod said:


> So, we have one insight and one diplomacy success? What did Insight give us? Diplomacy gave us the possible history bonus.




Nobody's succeeded on an insight check yet. The example I used above was just that: an example to hopefully demonstrate what I was talking about.


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## The Digger (Nov 6, 2008)

I suggest we do need the DC of the challenge to speed things up so for this example I'll suggest DC 15.  Then something like the following:

Pre-challenge:  IG gives relevant skill tests e.g. Diplomacy, Streetwise, Religion, Arcana and Insight. 

23 Peregrine: Opts for Diplomacy;
20 Brega: Opts to roll Aid another on Wisdom-or Cha-based skill
18 Elias   Opts  to Aid another on Int-based skills 
10 Aliyas  Opts for Arcana 
4 Jormund Opts for Insight

Peregrine rolls and succeeds
Brega waits
Elias waits
Aliyas  rolls 14 for Arcana - fail:  Elias rolls to Aid, rolls 12; adds 2 to Aliyas' roll - success.
Jormund rolls 10 for Insight - fail; Brega's Aid won't help so one failure

etc etc


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## Shayuri (Nov 7, 2008)

Leaving aside the question of mechanics, which I think has been haggled out nicely, I am curious to see what people think of the following dichotomy:

Skill Challenge vs Roleplaying.

Is it a false one? I know I've often pointed out that a combat encounter doesn't preclude roleplaying, and the same could be said of a Skill Challenge.

I know that in this latest, aborted, Skill Challenge though, I felt a perhaps irrational aversion to posting anything. Lacking any of the crucial skills, I felt as though I couldn't contribute...even though this introduction would be a logical point to at least identify myself and offer a generic platitude of support.

I like the idea of adding a game mechanic to areas of the game that had traditionally been totally freeform, if only because that allows rewards to be fairly granted according to a framework of rules. But I'm not sure I like the implementation of that idea. The mechanic seems very weighted towards failure, which discourages people from involving themselves in any but the most trivial of ways unless they're specialists in the skills in question.

What do you guys think?


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## Erekose13 (Nov 7, 2008)

With the restructured skill challenge DCs 5=easy/10=moderate/15=hard, I don't think Skill challenges are weighted to fail at all. In fact with these changes I think they are almost too easy. I've yet to see one fail in pbp (granted I think I've only read about 5). The one I ran in my face to face group with the old numbers (7/14/21) failed but the PCs didnt work together at all and all tried untrained checks.  When constructing a skill challenge a DM should be encouraged to allow an avenue for all characters to participate. So a social challenge should have at least one success be available for every character.  Whether that character makes the roll in the end is different. 

I am a big supporter of them, but do see the problems inherent in pulling people out of the roleplaying they are used to in these situations and forcing them to play it in order making skill checks all along. I think that difficulty is all the more evident in social skill challenges where before a character would be inclined to speak his mind and directly add to the conversation, those without the skills sit in the background and offer aid another points.  I think the solution is somewhere between IG's ooc mechanic and people posting what they want to say with every skill check (including aid another).  That way it might be possible for a DM to be more apparent when reward the success of all skill rolls including the small ones.


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## Shayuri (Nov 7, 2008)

The DC's make a difference, though untrained checks are still hideously prone to failure. Online dice "feel" more fickle to me, though intellectually I doubt that it's true. Plus, six successes to 3 fails means just three bad rolls...just three!...and it's over. That just seems monstrously intimidating to me.

Honestly though, it's not so much the reality of failure that makes me think of it as a problem. It's the threat. I don't want to be the goof that rolls a 1 and muffs things up. Combat is different; there's no set number of rolls that mean you lose the fight. There's a give and take, and things work themselves out. And, most importantly, it's really hard to mess things up for -others- even if your combat stats are bad. I might fail to contribute much, but I won't make things WORSE. 

I assume however that failed 'aid' rolls don't count as fails, which would help the situation. That at least gives unskilled characters some possibility of contributing in a harmless way.

The only other pitfall I can see is more stylistic. Skill challenges seem (maybe not so much in this game yet) to devolve an exchange into summaries.

"Nurkle the Purple tells Hob the Goatherd about the grand and illustrious history of goatherding, to try to ingratiate himself." (History check)

This instead of actually posting what Nurkle said in detail. And yes, summaries happen even outside of skill challenges. I'm just concerned that having a skill challenge -encourages- summarization, by causing a roleplaying encounter to take place on an abstract level.


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## Erekose13 (Nov 7, 2008)

That is actually a key difference in 4e. With the economy of actions and a tighter tactical combat system, failing an attack in 4e can have a direct negative impact on your companions.  Its hard to see without playing a bit beyond 1st, but in the Keep on Shadowfell game I played (till a tpk)  the last battle was a great example of poor planning and bad rolling means disaster for every one.

You are correct about failed aid rolls do not count against the challenge.

I understand where you are coming from on the stylistic area too. This one is harder to work against.  The issue comes down to player and dm creativity and expressing that when making a roll. Even in combat its better to say "I lunge forward with my sword, slicing into the orc's bare chest and leave an angry red line of blood." than "I attack and hit the orc.".  The same now applies to skill rolls where it didn't always before, especially in social situation.  But the system now encourages all players to participate. Where in 3.5 this exact skill challenge (convince the council) or the next one (intimidate the hob) would've involved a lot of back and forth roleplaying it likely would've been concentrated on those character who had invested in social skills (bluff/diplo/intimidate) or characters with high cha.  

In a recent skill challenge in another game, my character was making insight rolls only. The DM resolved that if it was going to count as a success, my character had to impart the knowledge he gained on the other characters. This is a great example of taking it further and using this system to involve everyone and beef up the roleplaying.


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## industrygothica (Nov 7, 2008)

And to be honest, I'm inclined to grant a success to reward a good bit of role playing regardless of what the dice say.  We can't have someone spewing out a beautiful string of prose and then having it go to waste because of a botched roll, can we?

Of course, then there is also something to be said about making the roll first, and then artfully crafting your dialogue around the result.  In fact I think I like that better...


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## The Digger (Nov 8, 2008)

Now that the DC's are posted it doesn't look too bad.  Peregrine has +9 Diplomacy and Intimidate so would only fail on those skill DCs on a natural 1.

If Aid Another fails do not count as 'Fails', and if several of us can aid (is it up to 4? i.e. +8) then I think we can do very well at these.  I understand that irrespective of the DC, an Aid Another roll is against a DC of 10.  So I could try Bluff with my +4 needing only 6 or better on a d20 - certainly worth a try if we're getting stuck.

Anyway I've posted Peregrine's initiative in the IC thread with a suggestion of what he will try.


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## Erekose13 (Nov 9, 2008)

posted init and tried to aid another because Brega really has nothing useful to add in social situations. Aided Peregrine so far because he was the first to post what skill he was going to use.


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## industrygothica (Nov 9, 2008)

Erekose13 said:


> posted init and tried to aid another because Brega really has nothing useful to add in social situations. Aided Peregrine so far because he was the first to post what skill he was going to use.




You can choose to delay chime in when you think it is appropriate.


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## industrygothica (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm being a bit lazy in getting back to my games since I've come back from vacation, but I assure you that I haven't forgotten about you.  Give me a little more time for a mental break, and we'll get back to it.

In the mean time, I'd like to make sure everyone's still with us.  How about a roll call?


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## stonegod (Jan 11, 2009)

industrygothica said:


> In the mean time, I'd like to make sure everyone's still with us.  How about a roll call?



Not it! I mean, I'm here!


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## Shayuri (Jan 11, 2009)

Yo.


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## The Digger (Jan 11, 2009)

Cheese roll please with English mustard:  Yumm!


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## Erekose13 (Jan 12, 2009)

im still around


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## industrygothica (Jan 15, 2009)

New post is up.  Please forgive the dramatically long delay, I've just found it overly difficult to get back into things since the break.

Thanks for the patience.


-IG


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## The Digger (Jan 15, 2009)

Slight problem with the two hobgoblins attacking Brega.  Peregrine marked H2 with Divine Challenge.  That gave H2 a -2 penalty to attack Brega AND by attacking Brega and not Peregrine he should have taken 7 radiant damage!


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## industrygothica (Jan 16, 2009)

The Digger said:


> Slight problem with the two hobgoblins attacking Brega.  Peregrine marked H2 with Divine Challenge.  That gave H2 a -2 penalty to attack Brega AND by attacking Brega and not Peregrine he should have taken 7 radiant damage!




Except that Peregrine is last in the initiative order, so the hobgoblins attacked Brega *before* H2 was marked.


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## industrygothica (Jan 27, 2009)

Weather conditions are terrible here right now; I wasn't able to drive home last night and ended up having to go to my mother's house from work because it's closer.  From the looks of things now, I'll be doing the same thing again tomorrow.

The good news:  She feeds me.

The bad news: I can't update until I get home.  Hopefully that'll be by tomorrow evening at the latest, meaning I should have an update out on Thursday or so.

I appreciate you guys sticking around through the slow updates.  Looks like my HoD game might have suffered a bit, but that'll give me more time for this one and TLB, assuming Talashia ever wakes up and joins the rest of the party (ahem, Shayuri).


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## Shayuri (Jan 27, 2009)

I was kind of waiting for some kind of list of what she discovered, since the first thing out of everyone's mouths will probably be, "So did you find out what it all does??"



(^_^)


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## industrygothica (Feb 12, 2009)

So I've FINALLY made another update.

I can't say they will come any quicker, though I am going to try.  I will promise you this, however:  I will never completely drop this game by just not posting anymore - I WILL notify you if it comes to that--though I don't see why it would.  So basically, no news is good news, at least on that front.

I love 4th edition, almost everything about it.  The thing I'm having problems with is that it is so dependent on maps and positioning that it makes it a total pain to update.  And then by the time I finally get psyched up to do it, EN World will take forever to load and just drains desire I might have had to mess with it.  Sad, really.

I'm sure there's an easier way than how I'm doing it... there's almost got to be.  So if you have any ideas, I'm all ears!


-IG


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