# GenCon, sleep, hard-core gaming and drowsy driving



## Piratecat (Jul 21, 2003)

EDIT: We're coming into the convention season of spring and summer. I thought I'd bump this on general principle.

--- o ---

So, considering that my "real" job is as a sleep and alertness expert (I design shift schedules for round-the-clock companies), I thought it was worth mentioning a few things before folks head off to GenCon.  With luck, maybe I can save someone from having an accident.

*For people driving and gaming on short sleep:*

1. Most people need 8 hours of sleep to be well-rested. When you're getting less than that (as most people do), you're far more likely to suffer from something called "microsleeps." The less sleep you've had, the more likely it is that you'll experience these.

2. Microsleeps are periods when a wave of sleep washes over you, for anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes. Often times, you may not even realize that you've been technically asleep; these can happen while your eyes are open. Don't remember the last five minutes of your drive, or your attention is wandering to things that aren't the road? You're suffering from microsleeps. 

3. At these times, your reaction time absolutely sucks. If you're on a flat straight empty road, you'll hopefully be okay. If  the guy in front of you hits his brakes, though, you'll never be able to react in time. It's incredibly dangerous.

4. When you feel this starting to happen, *pull the car over off the road* and take a ten minute nap. Cold air, a blasting radio - these provide only momentary (and miniscule) boosts to your alertness. A short "power nap" is the only thing that will raise your alertness in the short term.  Ten or fifteen minutes of shuteye will help you stay awake for the next 1-2 hours. Even caffeine isn't a great solution, although it can help in the short run.   If you're falling asleep during a game, a 5 minute break with your eyes closed can help, as well.

5. Remember, sleepiness comes in waves; you may be fine, then 20 minutes later you're ready to keel over. Sleep-related accidents are much more likely to occur with folks who have been up all night, then who drive farther than 20 minutes. The presence of daylight helps a great deal with your alertness, which is why the vast majority of fatigue-related accidents happen between 1am to 6 am, especially right around dawn.

6. Regarding reaction time and the ability to reason logically - studies have shown that after 20 hours without sleep (assuming a morning wake-up time), your performance is equivalent to someone with a .08 blood alcohol level. After 24 hours with no sleep, performance and mental acuity is equivalent to .10 - legally drunk. See, there's a reason you make stupid decisions when tired!  And you don't want to know about how you do when you're tired AND drunk.    If you're sleep-deprived, keep this in mind when thinking about what you're doing, especially if you have to drive.

7. Short naps (10-15 minutes, 20 minutes max) are great for short-term alertness boosts. Long naps (2-3 hours) are even better; they give you restorative sleep and can keep you going another 6-10 hours. *Stay away from 1-hour naps.* Due to the way your sleep patterns run, a 1-hour nap will often leave you feeling groggy and tired, when a shorter or longer nap will not. Neat, huh?

8. The amount of alertness you gain after 5 hours of sleep is significantly higher than the amount you gain after 4 hours. If you have a choice, you'll be a lot happier with that extra hour.

9. More than 3 cups of coffee (or doses of caffeine) doesn't make you any more alert; it just makes you more anxious, irritable and prone to stress. Keep your coffee intake spaced out, don't overdue it, and remember that caffeine stays really active in your body for roughly four hours after drinking it. If you try to sleep when caffeinated, your sleep quality will stink; for that reason, try to time your caffeine intake so that you stop drinking caffeine 3-4 hours before your anticipated bedtime.

There a ton more information that may help, but this is a decent fast primer. Be aware of your drowsiness when driving, and watch out for that mental sluggishness - recognizing it in time may be the best thing you do this weekend.

Hope this is useful!


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 21, 2003)

You rock, PC.

Just in case you were wondering.


----------



## Ravellion (Jul 21, 2003)

Not going to gencon, and I hardly ever drive (even though I ahve a licence), but this is fun information at least.

Rav


----------



## Pielorinho (Jul 21, 2003)

Thanks, Kevin!  My brother and I are leaving Asheville around 2 am to make it to Indianapolis by around 10 am; I'll make sure to go to bed early enough to get those all-important 5 hours of sleep.  And yay switching off driving!

Daniel


----------



## KnowTheToe (Jul 21, 2003)

Good tips PC.

Fatigue & sleeping behind the wheel is no joke.  I lost a good friend and his wife when he fell asleep behind the wheel.  Only their two year old son survived.


----------



## Angcuru (Jul 21, 2003)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *I lost a good friend and his wife when he fell asleep behind the wheel.  Only their two year old son survived. *



That really sucks. 

EVERYBODY LISTEN TO PIRATECAT!  HE KNOWS HIS STUFF!


----------



## Gellion (Jul 21, 2003)

Thats helpful. My brother seems to think you only need five hours of sleep.  Although in order to feel fully rested i need fifteen hours.


----------



## spacecrime.com (Jul 21, 2003)

Okay, this may be a stupid place to put this question, but I figure at least the right sort of people will be seeing it here.

I can't get away from my store for the whole weekend, but I'm hitting Gen Con for a day so I can be at the Ennies. I'm busy meeting friends and wandering the con for most of the afternoon, but I'm hoping to spend a late night playing games before falling into the plane home on Saturday morning. 

I know it's a new venue and all, but where has late-night gaming tended to happen in the past, and where do you recommend I go looking for it?

(I have visions of asking the bellhop and getting directed to entirely the *wrong* sort of game...)


----------



## alsih2o (Jul 21, 2003)

great advice from a dastardly man.

 i used to be a short sleeper, little bursts, but now i need 9-10 hours or i am bust all day.

 getting older sucks


----------



## Droogie (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: Tip #7*

OMG your RIGHT! 


I've noticed it myself. If I need some shuteye, I'm great with a catnap, and I'm great with a 2 hour nap. 

If I try getting up after 1 hour, I feel like crap.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Jul 21, 2003)

Is it true that sleeping in multiples of 90 minutes is good for you?  I've noticed that I feel a lot more rested after a 90 minute nap than I do after a 2-hour nap.  Someone once told me that's because the body operates on a 90-minute sleep cycle.  Any truth to that?


----------



## dave_o (Jul 21, 2003)

PC, I know this is probably a bad idea, but to function at least semi-normally, maybe supplimenting with vitamins, etc. - what's the least amount of sleep someone can work on?

I've always hated sleeping, and I can't get enough hours out of the day.


----------



## Azure Trance (Jul 21, 2003)

I found that when I get dozy after ingesting a 'good' amount of caffiene, I just take more caff pills, and the caffiene wins. Though your right on the anxious thing. Yeech.


----------



## Caliban (Jul 21, 2003)

Heh, I wish I had seen this before Origins. 

On my way home from the airport, I had a "micro-sleep" and ended up totalling my truck after fishtailing across three lanes of traffic on the freeway and flipping it on it's side in a ditch.


----------



## Tallok (Jul 21, 2003)

Ah yes, powernapping, my brother is so good at it that he was able to come home after school in High School and College, take a 30-60 minute nap and be completely rested


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 21, 2003)

I concur that a 2 hour nap helps.  One thing that I try to do at the end of Gen Con is make sure that I get a good night of sleep before I get up Sunday.

Know your limits.  (I am not going to Gen Con this year, but I would like to see everyone next year.  So be safe, and get some rest.)


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Jul 21, 2003)

So 24 hours without sleep means you are effective as a drunk... my question is, what about after 40 hours? I sure felt as unresponsive as a drunk... but it would be nice to know.


----------



## SmokestackJones (Jul 21, 2003)

Hey PC,

Thanks.  This is valuable info, even though I won't be attending cons.  I work overnights at a radio station and, believe me, I know how hard it is to keep awake while driving home.  Thanks again.

*-SJ*


----------



## Celtavian (Jul 21, 2003)

*re*

Good info. I almost died sleeping at the wheel . Now I take a short nap before I set out if I feel too tired to drive. Even a short nap does wonders if you are nodding off.


----------



## Christian (Jul 21, 2003)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *Is it true that sleeping in multiples of 90 minutes is good for you?  I've noticed that I feel a lot more rested after a 90 minute nap than I do after a 2-hour nap.  Someone once told me that's because the body operates on a 90-minute sleep cycle.  Any truth to that? *




Different people have different sleep cycle lengths, but PCat's '2 hours' is pretty much the average-most people's cycles are close enough to that that a 2-hour nap will work for them. My cycles are about 2:10, but my wife's are (unusually) closer to 2:30, and a 2-hour nap turns out to be a bit short for her ... I imagine that 90 minutes would be short for most people.


----------



## Imhotepthewise (Jul 21, 2003)

Any parent with young children can tell you sleep is overrated.

All kidding aside, all of you folks be careful and drive safely.  Everyone goes to Gen Con comes home safely.  We never leave anyone behind.  Only skeletons and zombies in the graveyard, not friends.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 21, 2003)

Thanks PC! I always feel tired towards the end of the work day, maybe I'll start taking a 10 min. nap every afternoon. As for GenCon, I'll have to fit them in somewhere or I know I'm going to crash well before I'm ready.


----------



## Drew (Jul 21, 2003)

You rock Kevin! Your job seems really cool. Very interesting stuff.

As a side note, I when I went to GenCon 2000 I was working overnights at a radio station. My friends picked me up when I got off work at 5:00 AM. My plan was to sleep in the car...my plan failed.

By 7 or 8 o'clock that night we were back in our hotel room ready to make characters with our shiny new 3E handbooks. I got about as far as rolling my Dex before I was snoring. In the morning, everyone had a new character but me. Plus, I had spent the evening in fitful sleep, yelling out at my college and rolling around a lot. 28 or so hours without sleep is NOT a good idea...but it was GenCon baby!


----------



## KnowTheToe (Jul 21, 2003)

Tallok said:
			
		

> *Ah yes, powernapping, my brother is so good at it that he was able to come home after school in High School and College, take a 30-60 minute nap and be completely rested *




I did that during class as not to waste time after school.  My parents were surprised by my energy levels late into the night


----------



## Vivictus (Jul 21, 2003)

Yeah, due to a friend falling asleep at the wheel once we rolled his car into a ditch and flipped it twice, and one person was thrown into barb wire. Everyone survived, with no seat belts, at about 70 mph. The car was actually "thrown" over since the dirt packed against the wheels down this ditch hard enough it tossed us. The other two had some injuries, but I came out with just a small bump on my leg luckily.

Also, I have trouble driving. I always feel light headed while driving and have trouble concentrating on the road. I've gone to the doctor about it but he can't tell me anything. I've gotten glasses just in case my "very slight" nearsightedness had something to do with it, and that hasn't helped. There's been a few times also where I just seemed to get VERY dizzy for a moment, like I just woke up suddenly while driving as well. I normally don't get enough sleep in a day.

So, couple questions for you then since you're the expert...

One: This light headedness I feel constantly while driving. You think this would be related to not getting much sleep? I also drink more than I probably should in case that helps, but I NEVER drive if I've even had a single beer mind you.

Two: If you get say only 4-6 hours of sleep a night, does this cumalatively add up in some way over many nights with not enough sleep? As it is today I've slept maybe 5-6 hours a night for about 4 nights now.

Anyway, good info to know. I won't be going to the con. I only go to DunDraCon here in Northern Cali. Can't afford flying to gaming conventions.  Thanks.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Jul 21, 2003)

Thanks for the info PC.

Definitely listen to the man.  My best friend was killed in a car accident.  Likely cause was falling asleep behind the wheel.

She was only 20, and married for only 6 months....


Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 21, 2003)

Weird coincidence time:  So, my line of work is a small community, where everyone knows everyone else because there are just a handful of other companies who do biocompatible shift scheduling and night shift training. 

Last night I got an email from everyone's favorite DireKobold.com editor; as it turns out, EOL happens to be the son of one of the few other people in the industry! This is like Alsih2o discovering that one of the members here is also a potter he's known about and respected for ten years. Very, very cool, and just one more reason for me to like DireKobold.com - as if I needed another one.  

A few thoughts:

-  Spacecrime, I know there is open gaming areas at GenCon, but I have no idea where.

- Pielorinho, remember that 5-6 am is the worst, right around dawn. Be especially careful then. If you're well-rested when you start your drive, you should be okay.

- As Know the Toe and Caliban (and Vivictus and Taren!) illustrated, this sort of thing happens to everyone - and no one is immune. You can't "tough out" fatigue no matter how much willpower you have, because it's physiological and not psychological.  Sleepiness is something that happens to everyone, so you're a lot better off recognizing and dealing with it than trying to pretend it isn't going to be a problem.  Hey, Caliban, I'm glad you're okay!

- A few people need less sleep than normal, but don't expect that you're one of them! The vast majority of folks require 7-8 hours in order to be well-rested. Do people always get this much? Of course not.  When you're getting less than that on a regular basis, you become habitually sleep deprived. You may feel normal, but you'll drop off to sleep at odd times, and you'll be a lot more irritable than normal. You'll also find yourself getting sick more often, because fatigue will depress your immune system.

- Meepo, that's exactly right - although as Christian mentioned, the body runs on a 90-110 minute cycle for most people. During that time you'll slip from light sleep (stage 1 and 2) into deep sleep (stages 3 and 4), back up into light sleep again, and you'll dream (REM sleep). You ever wake up early and feel great, drowse back off, and wake up again feeling incredibly groggy? That's because you slipped back down into deep sleep.  Everyone differs a little, but sleeping in multiples of 90 minutes (tweaked as you recognize your own patterns) is a good way to make sure you wake up feeling well rested.

- dave_o, the least amount of sleep with close-to-normal functioning? Two 2-hour naps per day, spaced 12 hours apart. You'll be tired, but it can keep you going efficiently for quite some time; it's what we recommend to emergency workers. The important thing is doing 2 per day, and not one 4-hour block, because the longer you go without sleep the worse off you become. 

- Chris Nightwing, how you're doing after 40 hours depends on what time of day it is. If it's bright and sunny out, you'd be pretty useless.  If it's the middle of the night, you'd be _completely_ useless.  

- Cthulhu's Librarian, if you want to take an afternoon nap, shoot for the siesta hour (1-2 pm). Your body is naturally sleepy at that time of day anyways, so you might as well use that to your advantage.

- Vivictus, the light-headedness could be from fatigue, although it's a little odd for it to manifest that way. Does it happen when you're well rested?

Think of sleep like a bank. When you're well-rested, you can draw from your sleep bank and make it through a night or two with less sleep than normal. After one or two nights, though, your bank account is dry - and the fatigue begins to catch up with you in other ways.  Luckily, you don't have to pay it back on a 1-for-1 basis, as one good night's sleep will replenish your reserves.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 21, 2003)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *getting older sucks  *




that's b/c we lost all of our teeth.  or   since i didn't put my dentures in.


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Jul 21, 2003)

Thanks PC, that explains alot.

I woke up on an engineering course at 8am or so, and ended up staying awake all night... I think 5-6am was the worst you are right, I had to walk across campus to stay awake - and go for a sugar rush. Then I felt like you said, drunkish whilst trying to experiment, and by dinner time I was finding it hard to concentrate on more than one thing at a time. I would be desperately trying to eat (very slowly...) and then someone would shake me because I hadn't heard them calling my name. After eating it always feels a little better I find, I found the energy to play sport for two hours despite the lack of sleep and eventually crashed for ten hours that night.

Another question though, I heard that more than about nine hours sleep leaves you feeling kind of jetlagged, any truth in this?


----------



## Henry (Jul 21, 2003)

PCat, thank you for the info. Believe it or not, I'm printing this out and sticking it into my 'con information, because I have a feeling I'm going to need it.


----------



## Michael Tree (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *- Pielorinho, remember that 5-6 am is the worst, right around dawn. Be especially careful then. If you're well-rested when you start your drive, you should be okay.*



This is quite true, and applies to dusk as well as dawn.  It's not just because of how light affects our sleep cycle, but also  becasue of the way our eyes work.  The reasons are complicated, but in a nutshell, dusk/dawn light is too dim for the cones in our eyes to work properly, so our daylight vision is impaired, but it's also too bright for the rods in our eyes to work, so we don't have nightvision either.  Because of the way the brain is wired, our reaction time and perception of motion are also impaired, and it's much more impairing than it feels.

For that reason, when driving long distances, I recommend always stopping for a break during dusk and dawn.  Stopping for a half hour for breakfast or dinner will give your eyes and brain much needed rest, and will keep you off the road at the most dangerous times of the day.


----------



## Caliban (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> - As Know the Toe and Caliban (and Vivictus and Taren!) illustrated, this sort of thing happens to everyone - and no one is immune. You can't "tough out" fatigue no matter how much willpower you have, because it's physiological and not psychological.  Sleepiness is something that happens to everyone, so you're a lot better off recognizing and dealing with it than trying to pretend it isn't going to be a problem.  Hey, Caliban, I'm glad you're okay!
> *




Thanks Piratecat. 

I think the most amazing thing was that I went across three lanes of traffic at 4:30 PM in the afternoon, barely missed the telephone pole, flipped the truck on it's side, and didn't get a scratch on me or hurt anyone else.    

I was wearing my seat belt, and simply climbed out of the truck after it over.   My insurance paid me $6,000 for the truck, and I only owed $2,100 on it.   So I paid of my credit cards and put a down payment on a newer vehicle.   

I find it kind of disturbing that I ended up better off after the accident than before it.


----------



## Henry (Jul 21, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *I find it kind of disturbing that I ended up better off after the accident than before it. *




Has your auto insurance renewal come up, yet?


----------



## armac (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat,

Do you mind if I repost this on another gaming
message board?

I can either credit it to you as "Piratecat from
ENWorld" (and give these boards a plug), or
I could use your real name.

     Angus


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Jul 21, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *Heh, I wish I had seen this before Origins.
> 
> On my way home from the airport, I had a "micro-sleep" and ended up totalling my truck after fishtailing across three lanes of traffic on the freeway and flipping it on it's side in a ditch. *




You drove all the way to the midwest for a convention, but went to Origins?  I would have waited a month and gone to GenCon instead 

Sorry about the truck, though.  Good to hear you're okay.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 21, 2003)

i'm sure P-kitty has read this. but for the rest of you. don't forget to visit my website. 

http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000701-d000800/d000705/d000705.html


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 21, 2003)

armac said:
			
		

> *Piratecat,
> 
> Do you mind if I repost this on another gaming
> message board?
> *




No, that'd be great! Please credit me as "Kevin Kulp (Piratecat at EN World)", and provide a link here so I can see.

Thanks!


----------



## Iceman (Jul 21, 2003)

*Question about waking up*

Hey Kev,

I'm wondering...
What's a good way to wake up in the morning after a night of less-than-perfect sleep (either too short or too much disturbance - I have apnea)?

I don't drink coffee and can't stand soda in the am.
I've heard things like apples are great cause they have natural sugars - any truth here?

See you in two.
-VIC

ps
No RPGA title to fight over this year, what ARE we going to do with ourselves?


----------



## jerichothebard (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *... I thought it was worth mentioning a few things before folks head off to GenCon.  With luck, maybe I can save someone from having an accident.
> 
> For people driving and gaming on short sleep: *




See, that is why I like being a part of this community - people here actually think about this type of stuff and do nice things for each other!  So, even though I am not going to Gen Con (something about being in CA and having no money...), thanks for the tips and thanks for thinking about us!

jtb


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> * You ever wake up early and feel great, drowse back off, and wake up again feeling incredibly groggy? That's because you slipped back down into deep sleep.  Everyone differs a little, but sleeping in multiples of 90 minutes (tweaked as you recognize your own patterns) is a good way to make sure you wake up feeling well rested.*



*

Wow.  Thanks, Kevin.  This explains A LOT.  When I started my current job last year, it required a sizable shift in my sleeping pattern, as I need to be at work by 7AM (requiring me to get up by 4:45AM).  Since I don't get back home until 5:30PM, I only have a few hours with the kids, and then only maybe 1.5 to 2 hours to be an adult.  As a night person, I tend to want to stay up late, making it even more difficult.  Game nights are usually until 1AM (we start after the kids are asleep), so I'm constantly falling behind in sleep, it seems.

Questions, then:

1) Can you 'catch up' on sleep?  I've always assumed that if I get extra sleep one day, I can sort of 'pay my sleep debt', so to speak.

2) What kind of effects can long-term sub-optimal sleeping patterns produce?  That is, if I don't miss sleep, but short myself on it for long periods, what are the effects?*


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Jul 21, 2003)

PC Rocks...

A few months ago he helped demonstrate to me just how badly my sleep schedule of 3-4 hours a night for a year was killing me.


----------



## kkoie (Jul 21, 2003)

kickbutt thread!  Very interesting information and great tips!  I never realized the problem with 1 hour naps.


----------



## Vivictus (Jul 21, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *- Vivictus, the light-headedness could be from fatigue, although it's a little odd for it to manifest that way. Does it happen when you're well rested? *




I couldn't tell you if the dizzyness happens when I am well rested or not, but the lightheadedness seems to be there no matter what, though sometimes it's worse than others. I believe it's worse when I've had less sleep or a bad night sleep, but it's hard to tell. I'm also a very thin guy, smoker, drinker, who weighs only like 112 lbs and I get worn out really easily, so perhaps I may need more sleep than average. Who knows.


----------



## Trepelano (Jul 21, 2003)

Vivictus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I couldn't tell you if the dizzyness happens when I am well rested or not, but the lightheadedness seems to be there no matter what, though sometimes it's worse than others. I believe it's worse when I've had less sleep or a bad night sleep, but it's hard to tell. I'm also a very thin guy, smoker, drinker, who weighs only like 112 lbs and I get worn out really easily, so perhaps I may need more sleep than average. Who knows. *




I'm no doctor - but other possibilities that come to mind are a nutritional deficiency or circulatory problem.

or...if it only happens when you drive - it may be an equilibrium issue - do you get motion sickness easily?


----------



## s/LaSH (Jul 21, 2003)

This is serious, alright. Exactly the same points were made in a recent issue of the New Zealand aviation safety periodical that they still insist on sending me (I'm an artist these days, not a commercial pilot dagnabbit!). Of course, their article was filled with more references to transpacific flights. If you screw up five thousand kilometers from the nearest rock sticking out of the ocean...

I don't even have a driver's license, and I'm not heading to GenCon, but it's good info for anybody.


----------



## Magus Coeruleus (Jul 22, 2003)

Great thread.  Hey PCat, what's your educational background as a sleep expert, out of curiousity?  I'm a cognitive neuroscientist, and though not a sleep expert, I use EEG.  These "microsleeps"--  are those associated with specific EEG frequency bands and sleep stages?  I mean, you're not totally unconscious during them, but I'm assuming the EEG looks like one or more sleep stages and I'm curious.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 1) Can you 'catch up' on sleep?  I've always assumed that if I get extra sleep one day, I can sort of 'pay my sleep debt', so to speak.
> 
> 2) What kind of effects can long-term sub-optimal sleeping patterns produce?  That is, if I don't miss sleep, but short myself on it for long periods, what are the effects? *




As PC said, luckily you don't need to make up all the sleep you miss.  Just one night of extra sleep probably takes care of it.  I'm no sleep specialist, and I don't know lots about long term problems but I do know that long-term sleep deprivation is a form of stress, and can compromise your immune function.  It's a lot like getting suboptimal nutrition in some respects.

Interestingly, lack of sleep inhibits consolidation of memories and learning, but that consolidation "catches up" pretty well when you finally get to sleep normally.  On the other hand, if you're continuing to sleep deprive yourself from the time that you are acquiring the info and when you need to use it, that catching up comes too late!


----------



## Dread0395 (Jul 22, 2003)

*Admin Request: Make this thread Sticky*

Admin:

This thread is both continuously useful and very safety oriented!

Thanx,

Eric the Dread0395


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 22, 2003)

Didn't you know? No one ever reads the sticky threads.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 22, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Didn't you know? No one ever reads the sticky threads.   *




Dang! Thought you were Morrus for a second.


----------



## Cog (Jul 22, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, that'd be great! Please credit me as "Kevin Kulp (Piratecat at EN World)", and provide a link here so I can see.
> 
> Thanks! *




LINK


----------



## ssampier (Jul 22, 2003)

*Great Info!*

Sounds like a cool job PC. I don't like driving at night (I'm a bit 'night blind'), nor am I going to GenCon. The information is useful anyway.

I'm one of those people that need 11 hours of sleep to feel somewhat rested. Heh, I've been starting to think I have sleep apnea.  Most mornings I wake up groggy.


----------



## Davin (Jul 22, 2003)

Christian said:
			
		

> *Different people have different sleep cycle lengths, but PCat's '2 hours' is pretty much the average-most people's cycles are close enough to that that a 2-hour nap will work for them. My cycles are about 2:10, but my wife's are (unusually) closer to 2:30, and a 2-hour nap turns out to be a bit short for her ... I imagine that 90 minutes would be short for most people. *



In addition to adding my thanks to PCat, I thought I'd throw in my own timings here...  My sleep cycles seem to be spaced almost exactly 90 minutes apart, but it takes me about an extra 30 minutes to "get started" when first falling asleep.  So my first REM cycle seems to happen about 2 hours after last conciousness, and the remainder every hour and a half after that.  So, yes, I need a minimum of 2 hours for some effective rest.  But I thought that something like this might also explain your wife's apparently extra-long sleep timing.


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 22, 2003)

*Re: Great Info!*



			
				ssampier said:
			
		

> *
> I'm one of those people that need 11 hours of sleep to feel somewhat rested. Heh, I've been starting to think I have sleep apnea.  Most mornings I wake up groggy. *




Do you snore?


----------



## Assylem (Jul 22, 2003)

This is really useful stuff PC, being a college student as well, this is extremely important stuff!

But I've got another question, is it healthy to sleep for 12-16 hours?  If I dont have anyone waking me up or an alarm, I usually sleep around 13 hours average, 16 if i'm really sleepy.  (this is no drugs btw)

Just curious.


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 22, 2003)

Assylem, that says to me four things:

1. You need more sleep than most people. The population is on a bell curve; it sounds like you're the guy making up for that woman I met who only needs 4 hours a night.

2. Your sleep needs will change. Teenagers tend to need a lot more sleep than folks in their mid-20's do. It usually happens a bit earlier, but you might just be hitting that stage a little late.

3. The nights you don't sleep for 13 hours, you're running short on sleep and building up fatigue - which manifests itself as extra-long sleep periods when you can afford to catch up.

4. If you're overweight and a snorer, I might suggest the possibility of sleep apnea (see Diaglo's link earlier for info) that fragments your sleep and makes it less restful; that's another possible reason for needing long sleep time.

Long sleeping times aren't inherently unhealthy, so long as (a) it's not a symptom of depression, and (b) it isn't affecting your work and social life. 

Hope that helps,


----------



## KnowTheToe (Jul 22, 2003)

This is a little OT but everyonce in awhile I feel so fatigued I lose control of my coordination, but the really strange part is I will often have the same feeling only exagerated while I am dreaming.  

I have had countless dreams where I feel so tired in my dream that I cannot function.  For instance if I am driving, I will continually drift onto the sidewalk because I a falling asleep (in my dream), if I am walking, I will stagger and fall down and when talking I just fall asleep.  It is really wierd, but the dreams freak me out.

Am I alone out there?


----------



## ssampier (Jul 23, 2003)

I can't relate to the whole tired thing, but I've had plenty of dreams when I tried to react to a dream (run for instance) and I couldn't move--I was paralyzed. Those dreams still freak me out; they are so real.

Pc, I think I snore. I wasn't aware of it for many years until 2 years ago my college roomate said I was snoring, and I just quit breathing for a bit. He wondered if I still was alive up there (upper bunk).


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 23, 2003)

ssampier said:
			
		

> *Pc, I think I snore. I wasn't aware of it for many years until 2 years ago my college roomate said I was snoring, and I just quit breathing for a bit. He wondered if I still was alive up there (upper bunk). *




*ding ding ding*  Welcome to the world of sleep apnea. You will be a much, MUCH happier person if you pop around to a sleep lab nearby and get tested.

What's happening is that right now when you sleep, your throat closes and you stop breathing.  That's a bad thing. When you do, your brain starts to panic, your heart begins to race, and your body wakes you up just enough to take a breath... possibly hundreds of times an hour. How well do you think you'd sleep if I stood next to your bed and poked you once a minute? Think you'd be tired in the morning and need more sleep than normal to feel well rested?

Exactly.

Luckily, it's fairly common and easily treated. Call a local sleep lab (ask your doctor) and see what they have to say!

Note that sleep apnea is a major driving hazard. Because it often leaves you dangerously fatigued, you're prone to microsleeps at any time of day. Be careful when you're in the car for longish trips.


----------



## Trevalon Moonleirion (Jul 25, 2003)

For those at GenCon with 'net access... I deem this thread...


BUMPED!

Safe and happy gaming and driving, everyone!  Roll some crits for me!


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 25, 2003)

PC, I wonder what you have heard on recent statistics that people who get over 7 hours of sleep a night, on average, have decreased life expectancies?

Also, I suffer from fairly nasty insomnia now and again, and I can vouch for all this being true.  Fortunately I have no bad accident stories.  At this point, I just make certain to walk a lot of places and keep my morning schedule light.  Cause once I do get ready for sleep it can be very hard for me to control how well I wake up.

I would be curious to know PC, if there is any advice for waking up more effectively.

I've run into none other than taking sleeping medicine very early on nights when you know you have to be up early.

The wall street journal had an article out this week that a half-hour nap for employees generally increases productivety for that employee by 33% .  The article went on to say, however, that while many employees do this surreptitiously, particularly CEOs, only airlines and train companies had any likely of implementing it as a policy, American culture being what it was.  

Sigh.


----------



## Christian (Jul 25, 2003)

Coincidentally, I got to empirically test some of this yesterday. My wife forgot to wake me up from what was supposed to be a half-hour nap, and I ended up sleeping just over an hour. So, just for giggles, I went on a long drive!

No, just kidding. I played some pinball on my computer. And you know what? My reaction times really were a _lot_ slower. So, I guess PC knows what he's talking about. (Not that I ever doubted him.  )


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Jul 25, 2003)

This thread is a work of genius.

Pkitty, you are Officially the Nicest Man In The World.


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 25, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *PC, I wonder what you have heard on recent statistics that people who get over 7 hours of sleep a night, on average, have decreased life expectancies? *




_Pssst!_  He went to Gencon, so he may be a while in answering. 

I read that article in the WSJ, too.  A little too flufly for my tastes, though.  Whenever I hear a study quoted in the media anywhere (and let me state I tend to think the WSJ is pretty good in this regard), I usually want more details.  As often as not, the study is a little too limited to make the generalized claims that the media would like, since "Sleep will kill you!" sounds much better than "in a select study over three years, we discovered that the sleep patterns of some individuals may have had some corrolation with their life expectancy, but we'll need five other groups to produce similar studies to really be sure."


----------



## Pbartender (Jul 26, 2003)

What a fun thread... **BUMP**

For the last five years, I've been working a 5-week 'rotating shift' (you know what I'm talking about, PK).  For those that are curious...  My work schedule for 2003.

I am a native inhabitant of the land of Circadia, and no stranger to sleep deprivation.

Listen to what Piratecat says.  I can tell you from personal experience, its all the truth.


----------



## Fenes 2 (Jul 26, 2003)

I usually sleep 6 hours a night during the week, and catch up during the weekend. I also usually take a 1 to 2 hour nap in the afternoon before saturday game night. I never got sleepy while gaming, even when we gamed until the morning, or when discussing/chatting afterwards, and I think it is due to the amount of concentration I put into those things (I get sleepy during meetings sometimes, or during lessons, so I know how it feels like). I made the experience, however, that I am more prone to blunders and mistakes when I have gamed for hours.


----------



## Creamsteak (Jul 26, 2003)

I know just how much fun your having right now, but if you ever drop by this thread I've got a short question for you, PC.

Can the internal clock be a bit off from the number of hours in a day?

My schedule is always moving 10 or more minutes forwards every one or two days. In other words, if I wake up (without any alarm or such) at 8AM, the next day I'll probably wake up at 8:10 or 8:15. Eventually it resets by a nap or going to bed early. It's just my usual monthly schedule.


----------



## Gellion (Jul 26, 2003)

I have found that when i get a good days sleep, i move slightly faster than i normally would.  For instance, when i am walking i move faster than usual even though i am not making any effort to move faster.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 28, 2003)

... sleep?  i'm still recovering now, at work.


----------



## Datt (Jul 28, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> **ding ding ding*  Welcome to the world of sleep apnea. You will be a much, MUCH happier person if you pop around to a sleep lab nearby and get tested.*




I have a question for you PC.  I am overweight and I snore at night.  I have in the past taken medicine to help me sleep as it can take me an hour or more sometimes to fall asleep even after going to bed.  But my question is, I noticed you said that people with sleep apnea normally need more sleep.  I need less sleep.  I ususally get around 6 hours of sleep or so a night and feel rested when I get up in the morning.  Could I still have slepp apnea?


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 16, 2004)

Just want to ressurrect a very helpful thread from last year's pre-GenCon madness. PC was helpful enough to post about getting enough sleep while at the con, and I think it's a worthy enough topic that this years GenCon attendees should take a look at it.


----------



## Henry (Aug 16, 2004)

Heck, I'll go ahead and save this, and I might talk to Russ about posting or stickying it every year for about a week or two just before Gencon.

I know the tradition of Gencon is to _"go and game until you puke or crash"_, but being dead in an accident, or even just missing your scheduled game because you're too tired, sucks for everyone.


----------



## diaglo (Aug 16, 2004)

talk about thread necromancy.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 16, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Heck, I'll go ahead and save this, and I might talk to Russ about posting or stickying it every year for about a week or two just before.



 Thanks Henry. 

 Any possibility that you could slap a GenCon tag on the thread so it gets looked at by those people going?


----------



## MrFilthyIke (Aug 16, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> talk about thread necromancy.




Cthulhu's Librarian has strong Necro-Fu.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 16, 2004)

thanks PC.    thank god our drive is only 3 hours max!


----------



## BOZ (Aug 16, 2004)

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> Cthulhu's Librarian has strong Necro-Fu.




LOL!  i didn't even recognize the date, or the fact that i had posted to this thread before.  "hmm, where did this long thread come from all of a sudden?"


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Aug 16, 2004)

Wow, I forgot about this thread.

Hey, PC, if you're still answering questions a year later....

I'm not going to Gen Con, but I have great difficulty taking naps during the day.  What advice would you give to me if I was a convention-goer or booth-attendant?  How would you personally sneak in a 10 minute or 90 minute nap?


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jun 24, 2005)

And a bump to bring this thread back for the 3rd year in a row...


----------



## francisca (Jun 24, 2005)

Concerning these issues, I'm glad for a few things:
1) 1 hour 10 minutes away from the convention center
2) I run on 4-5 hours of sleep every day, so the con life isn't a crimp in my sleep patterns

It is pretty scary at 2 or 3 in the morning, seeing the zombioid look in some people's eyes.


----------



## Shadowdancer (Jun 25, 2005)

Glad to see this thread resurrected. I found lots of good advice for when I attended Gen Con last year, and some advice I am still using today with my job and other activities when I don't get enough sleep.


----------



## DaveStebbins (Jun 25, 2005)

Yes. I copied the original post to my hard drive and have printed it out for friends who were travelling several times. Since my ex-wife moved over 500 miles away last summer I think of P-Kitty's advice every time I visit my daughter. I say goodbye to her at bedtime Saturday night and hit the road, stopping for naps at rest areas every time I feel myself beginning to flag (or if I suspect I'll start to flag before the _next_ rest area). It adds time to the trip back, but I have arrived home safely Sunday morning each time, and never even been close to one of those 'almost asleep head jerks back up' episodes. I also owe many thanks to my county library system's decent collection of audiobooks on CD, which work much better than music for keeping my interest and keeping me alert as I drive.

-Dave


----------



## Wereserpent (Jun 25, 2005)

Not sure if this has been said, but if you have never taken it before.  Dont take Benadryl and then try to drive, that stuff knocks you out like no other.  I know it says "May Cause Drowsiness" on the bottle, and you make think "aww, it cant be that bad" but really listen to the bottle on that one.


----------



## Peterson (Jun 25, 2005)

Heh.  Now _this_ is a topic I can relate too.  Good information to have P-Cat (for those who don't already have it), and I can agree with most, if not all, of it.

Please note - I am *not *a Sleep Expert.  I just have been to a number of sleep clinics and done a bit of researching here and there.

Anybody who really knows me understands why.  Those of you who don't....check the sig.

Again, P-Cat - thanks for bringing this information to the masses of gamers.  I've seen more of my players get into car accidents due to our rather odd gaming habits, and have since established a few ground rules as well as changing play times.

Peterson


----------



## MrFilthyIke (Jun 29, 2005)

Meeeeemories....

I love this Zombie thread.


----------



## Shadowdancer (Jul 27, 2006)

With GenCon just around the corner, this needs to be resurrected.

Also, glad they caught the Interstate sniper in Indiana before the GenCon traffic started going through.


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 27, 2006)

Good job - I was just about to bump it myself!

Any questions, anyone?


----------



## blargney the second (Jul 27, 2006)

Why does the first post make me think of _waves of fatigue_, and its introduction a month before the post was written?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 27, 2006)

I had some experience with sleep deprivation, and luckily, they were more funny than tragic, but they tought me a lesson.

Back in the day, I used to attend LAN-parties. Some at friends' houses, some in gyms, and so on. I remember two gaming marathons.

The first was in some old house that wasn't used otherwise. It stood on the grounds of one of the gamers, behind their "real" house. I remember being there playing Team Fortress, TFC and Counter-Strike, with short periods of eating and maybe watching a movie or something, and otherwise living off coke mostly. I was awake about 40 hours straight (we had sleeping arrangements, but sleep's for losers, right?) I remember that somewhere saturday-sunday night, I went to sleep after all, when I noticed that I stuck to the shadows on my way to the toilet. I was sneaking around, crouching, and stuff - and not to be funny. I think if anyone had one of those red dot laser pointers and aimed at the wall in front of me, I'd have jumped off the stairs to safe myself from the sniper. 

The other was a commercial affair with 300 people in a sports hall. Again I was awake about 40 hours straight (I didn't really trust people there enough to leave my PC unobserved - my PCs tend to be made up of top-notch pieces, not the cheap ones from a grocery store), browsing the ethernet for nice stuff or playing games. I also remember that I drove home after that. Somewhere around 2am saturday-sunday night. Since there was no city around, only villages, there was practically no traffic except me. And that wasn't a bad thing, I guess. I remember stepping on the brakes because that big white stag on the road. A moment later I realized it was just fog. 

After that, I swore to myself never to drive again after 40 hours without sleep (or any other lengthy period of sleepless time).

So, people: Don't think that caffeine will help you. Don't think that you're a tough monkey who won't be affected by "a little lack of sleep". Being awake for that long will play merry hell with your reactions, with your perception, and imposes a -20 penalty to reality checks. Getting back late is better than being late.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 27, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Good job - I was just about to bump it myself!
> 
> Any questions, anyone?



 Any suggestions for sleeping on a plane, sitting up?


----------



## Belen (Jul 27, 2006)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Thanks, Kevin!  My brother and I are leaving Asheville around 2 am to make it to Indianapolis by around 10 am; I'll make sure to go to bed early enough to get those all-important 5 hours of sleep.  And yay switching off driving!
> 
> Daniel




I thought you said that you could not make it?


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 27, 2006)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I thought you said that you could not make it?



Take a look at the time-stamp on his post! I wrote this two or three years ago.

Claudio, I assume you know the strategy of trying to get exit-row seating for better legroom. Luckily, you're coming northwest, so not a lot of difference between time zones, but if you want to sleep on the plane:

 - get a window seat. No one will climb over you to get to the bathroom.

 - noise-cancellation headphones are finally reasonably priced. A set of these can make sleep much, much easier on a plane.

- Buy a sleep mask (like Robin's superhero mask, only wiht no eye holes) at a drugstore. Blocking out light completely makes sleep MUCH easier.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah, I'll be flying Northwest, from Rio to Washington DC, with one stopover (hopefully in São Paulo, which means I'll spend seated those hours we usually spend standing in an airport).

One thing I tried when I went to NYC in 98 was use one of those neck cushions, and BOY do those suck! They hold your head in an upright position, which means gravity starts pulling your head into your shoulders, crushing the neck vertebrae.

Thanks for the tips! If they do work, I'll pay you a beer at GenCon!


----------



## RangerWickett (Jul 27, 2006)

Do you remember Hicks from _Aliens_, the guy who could fall asleep anywhere? They're plummeting through the atmosphere in a dropship, and Hicks is dozing casually. That's me. When I need to (i.e., when I'm bored and have been up at least 16 hours), I can sleep just about anywhere. Sitting on Greyhound buses? Easy. Slumped face-first against the window of a plane? Sure. In a cramped van, rumbling down a 'road' in the mountainous badlands of Texas? Not too hard.

Oddly, though, when I have a bed it's harder to get to sleep. I think I feel like I deserve comfortable rest, so I'll try to get into just the right position, which might take half an hour. This is contrasted with my 15-minute breaks at work, where I can grab a magazine, sit down in a chair, set my cell phone's alarm, and be asleep in 2 minutes.

Probably a bit of hyperbole in there somewhere, but I like my sleep. I might want to get one of those sleep masks, though, or at least buy better blinds for my window. It sucks to wake up at 7am after gaming 'til 2 because the sun thinks it can just waltz into your room and smack you in the eyes.


----------



## Kaodi (Jul 27, 2006)

*Ah, Sleep...*

I must admit that I have been guilty in the past of driving dangerously because of sleep deprivation, and almost all of the time it is within the " home stretch " to my house. Oddly, once or twice I've felt unable to concentrate well in the morning, even after a good amout of sleep.
Fortunately, I've only ever ditched my car once, in winter. The time was around 4 am, and I still believe that I didn't so much fall asleep as being hypnotized (the road was completely covered by a fresh, undisturbed blanket of snow for the entire home stretch, and the snow was falling gently... it didn't feel like I was tired, it felt like I could not for the life of me concentrate on the road).
Anyway, what I was actually kind of wondering, PirateCat, is what is it that allows a person to " rest in bed " sometimes when they wake up, for hours on end, without falling into a deep sleep (or maybe any sleep), when othertimes this sort of thing is impossible? I almost always feel well rested after these kind of mornings.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jul 27, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Good job - I was just about to bump it myself!
> Any questions, anyone?




That is some grade-A wonderful advice. Given how many con-goers I've seen pride themselves on staying up for 24 hours or more, it's especially relevant. It's a common problem that is overlooked a lot of times.

You might want to actually talk to someone at GenCon and a few other large cons about putting this info in the Con program literature right by the medical advice. (I've seen a couple of cons here in the Deep South put in things about adequate hydration, for instance).


----------



## Dextra (Jul 27, 2006)

*Thanks!*

It used to be that we would leave home after dinner and drive through the night.  Mostly because I hate driving through traffic and unfamiliar cities in traffic, but also because we couldn't get the time off work and wanted to arrive at the cons on time.

But after reading this article and also almost losing a family member to a Bambi incident (not sleep-related, but still), I take things a lot easier.  I figure that if I'm not alert enough to watch the sides of the roads for deer (or moose, I <3 Canada!), I'm not alert enough to drive.  So on the way to Gen Con this year, we're spreading the drive down over four days, and on the way back stopping half-way as well.

Drive to arrive alive, everyone- see you in Indy!


----------



## shaylon (Jul 27, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Good job - I was just about to bump it myself!
> 
> Any questions, anyone?




Yeah, just one.  How do you go from teaching people how to sleep to making video games in three short years?  Are these fields related at all?

I mean I went from Space Cowboy to Gangster of Love in a short period of time but that was different.

-Maurice(Shaylon)

P.S. Thanks for the info, that was very informative!


----------



## BOZ (Jul 27, 2006)

i'm pretty sleepy right now - do you think my bosses will mind if i take a nap?


----------



## Piratecat (May 20, 2010)

This is an old thread, but I was reminded of it when discussing drowsy driving the other day. It's worth bumping this thread once or twice a year before the convention season (especially GenCon) starts. Hope it proves useful!


----------



## pacdidj (May 20, 2010)

Thanks for the great advice P-cat! I'm a gigging musician, and I've had these "microsleeps" happen to me more times than I care to count when on the road back home from late night shows. They're *really scary.* It's great to know that a 10-15 minute nap can help to sort it out.


----------



## mudbunny (May 20, 2010)

Linky goodness

Thanks P-Cat!!


----------



## Jeff Wilder (May 20, 2010)

It drives me crazy when people crow about being "special" -- "I hate cilantro, it tastes like soap!" -- but this is an area that's always kinda weirded me out:

I can drink a triple espresso and be deeply and refreshingly asleep an hour later.

And I'm not claiming that caffeine doesn't work on me.  Far from it; that scenario is nightmarish.  Much like my dead gay son, I love my caffeine jolt, and a world in which caffeine had no effect on me is a world in which I wouldn't want to live.

It's just that when it's time to sleep, caffeine doesn't keep me awake, and so far as I can tell it doesn't make my sleep any less restful.

What's up with that, Piratecat?  (Hey, that rhymes.)


----------



## Piratecat (May 20, 2010)

Different people really do respond to caffeine differently, and it's not hard to become habituated. I wouldn't know without hooking you up to machines that go "ping!", but my guess is that the extra caffeine does impact your brainwaves while you sleep. You're a deep enough sleeper that you aren't noticing. Treasure this; it's a nifty thing to have. If you notice it changing as you age, adjust your habits accordingly.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (May 21, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> If you notice it changing as you age, adjust your habits accordingly.



Seriously, man, if I ever have to give up coffee, they'd better 5150 me.


----------



## Derulbaskul (May 21, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> (snip)I can drink a triple espresso and be deeply and refreshingly asleep an hour later. (snip)




I get my caffeine from two sources: coffee and Red Bull. I need at least one of them in the morning by about 9.30/10.00am else I suffer from migraines. I need at least one or two more during the day to keep going.

And, similar to your experience, I sometimes need one so I can sleep.


----------



## Umbran (May 21, 2010)

Derulbaskul said:


> I get my caffeine from two sources: coffee and Red Bull. I need at least one of them in the morning by about 9.30/10.00am else I suffer from migraines.




As I understand it, that's a possible symptom of habituation.  You may be getting the migraines not so much because you need caffeine to stave them off, but because you're suffering caffeine withdrawal. 

If that isn't it, and you get migraines every day, you should see a doctor.  Self-medication may be okay for occasional issues, but for chronic ones it is better to talk to someone properly educated on the human body.


----------



## Piratecat (May 21, 2010)

That's classic caffeine addiction. If it bothers you, try easing off the amount of caffeine you're drinking just a little bit at a time, dropping the amount you drink every 2-3 days. As an alternative, expect a week or so of awful headaches.


----------



## Scribble (May 21, 2010)

Mmmmm addiction.  Sweet sweet dark roasted addiction.


----------



## Piratecat (Aug 14, 2012)

With Gen Con in two days, time to bump the thread that may actually save your life!


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 28, 2015)

And it's my quasi-annual post-Gen Con bump!


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 24, 2018)

I wrote this 15 years ago (seriously, what the hell?), but well worth the bump. Be safe getting to Gen Con, folks!


----------

