# The Great Conjunction (RPG DESIGN CONTEST)



## jdrakeh (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm going to keep this simple, so it can be easily managed and so that we (hopefully) produce a wide range of submissions. 

*The Big Theme*

_*Magic*_. That's it. There has been a lot of discussion lately about where it went, what it is or isn't, and how to bring it back. Magic of some kind should be the central focus of your game submission. 

*Other Things to Incorporate*

In the interest of shaking things up a bit, you should also incorporate a specific source (or _sources_) of magical energy, a ruined city, a prophecy, and a near-ominpresent threat into your game. 

*Gee, That's Awfully Slim Pickings!*

Maybe — but that's what you have to work with  Keep in mind, however, that there are not very many thematic limitations placed on you. You can define "magic" and those Other Things pretty much however you want. 

*Work/Submission Window*

You can begin committing things to paper/photons on January 1, 2009. If I get a document with a creation date from 2008, it will be _automatically disqualified_ in order to remain fair to those who choose to put off actually writing their game until the aforementioned start date. I will _quit_ accepting submissions on February 28, 2009. 

*Size of Submissions*

Please limit the size of your game to 50 pages or _less_. For the curious, I didn't pick this figure out of thin air — it's Holmes BD&D rules + 10 pages. That should be _plenty_ of room to work with, for the purposes of this contest. 

*Where to Submit*

Right here. Post a link to your submission in this thread during the submission window outlined above, or post the plain text as a forum post. Easy! 

*How I Will Judge Thy Deeds*

Completeness. You will be scored for the ability of your game to stand alone as a complete work. Ideally, this means that it will contain rules _and_ a setting. And not refer readers to other books for rules on X, etc. 

Topicality. You will be scored on the prominance of The Big Theme in your submission. The inclusion of Other Things to Incorporate can help your Topicality score, as well. More topical means more points, basically. [Edit: See Wik's excellent elaboration below for more details.]

Originality. I've read hundreds (possibly thousands) of RPG books. If the ideas in your submission are relatively obscure or if I've never seen them before, you'll score pretty high here. Think outside the box! (This is the most subjective rating.)

Playability. I am absolutely convinced that Hybrid is a complete game (in fact, I am not sure I have ever seen a _more_ complete game). I am also convinced that the Average Joe cannot play it. The other three scores count for little if you score low here. 

*Other Questions?*

Feel free to email me here.


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## dm4hire (Dec 16, 2008)

Could an admin sticky this please so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, not that I think it will disappear, but it will help.

Thanks.


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## Ydars (Dec 16, 2008)

Are there any limitations on size; you mentioned them in an earlier thread but I notice there are none here?


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## Lord Xtheth (Dec 16, 2008)

Interesting, definately not what I was expecting for RPG design rules. I'll give it my best shot.


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## Aeolius (Dec 16, 2008)

Aughra: Now, ask what the Great Conjunction is, what's the Great Conjunction?

Jen: What's the Great Conjunction? You tell me! 

Aughra: THE GREAT CONJUNCTION IS THE END OF THE WORLD! Or the beginning. Hm!


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## haaz (Dec 16, 2008)

I have a question : you want a full RPG ruleset, or only a campaign setting which could be used with any system you want, or you have to write it for a specific system (ie : 4E) ?


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 16, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> Could an admin sticky this please so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, not that I think it will disappear, but it will help.
> 
> Thanks.




Might work better to link back to this in people's signatures.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 16, 2008)

ranig said:


> I have a question : you want a full RPG ruleset, or only a campaign setting which could be used with any system you want, or you have to write it for a specific system (ie : 4E) ?




Ideally, you should submit your own, full, RPG rule set _with_ a setting (whether it is an explicit or implied setting is up to you). You can, of course, choose to submit one or the other — but doing so may count against you for Completeness (as previously discussed).


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2008)

Woot.  Looks fun!  A few questions, though:

1)  While we cannot start writing now, can we start up our math and brainstorming now?  What I mean is, if I have an idea for a system (I have about five, right now!), can I start crunching numbers right now?  Maybe even post to get some ideas on how exactly to get the numbers to work right?  Or is it purely "Keep it in your head" until January 1st?

2)  Re:  Magic.  Magic can mean a lot of things.  Do super powers (ie "Comic Book Mutants") count as "magic"?  what about "the Force"? What about psychic powers?  I know I want to keep my setting somewhere in the modern/futuristic/post-apoc sphere, and sometimes those forms of "magic" fit in better than pure D&D "Magic".  

3)  This is one I was thinking about today at work.  Let's say I want to put an index or a table of contents in my game.  Or a cover page.  Or something along that line.  Would those count towards the page limit?  Or could I submit a "Work Copy" that's text only (and 50 pages) and a "Public Copy" that has the Index/ToC/Cover Page at the same time?  Since you're the only judge, that should be hunky-dorey, correct? 

Really excited about this.  Gonna have to brainstorm for the next couple of days!


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## jdrakeh (Dec 17, 2008)

Wik said:


> 1)  While we cannot start writing now, can we start up our math and brainstorming now?  What I mean is, if I have an idea for a system (I have about five, right now!), can I start crunching numbers right now?  Maybe even post to get some ideas on how exactly to get the numbers to work right?  Or is it purely "Keep it in your head" until January 1st?




You can feel free to brain-storm, research, take notes, etc before January 1st, by all means. I just don't want to receive a document created over the past five year period as a submission, come January. That's not fair to other participants. 



> 2)  Re:  Magic.  Magic can mean a lot of things.  Do super powers (ie "Comic Book Mutants") count as "magic"?  what about "the Force"? What about psychic powers?  I know I want to keep my setting somewhere in the modern/futuristic/post-apoc sphere, and sometimes those forms of "magic" fit in better than pure D&D "Magic".




All of the things that you list are arguably magic when presented in the right context. That's one of the reasons that I didn't elaborate on the concept of "magic" as a theme. I didn't want to cut off avenues of exploration. 

That said, genetic mutation would be kind of a hard push as "magic". I think the rule of thumb is that _magic_ should be not be easily explainable by modern science. 



> 3)  This is one I was thinking about today at work.  Let's say I want to put an index or a table of contents in my game.  Or a cover page.  Or something along that line.  Would those count towards the page limit?  Or could I submit a "Work Copy" that's text only (and 50 pages) and a "Public Copy" that has the Index/ToC/Cover Page at the same time?  Since you're the only judge, that should be hunky-dorey, correct?




A TOC or index do not count toward the 50 pages. A Glossary would, however, as it technically encompasses setting and/or rules.


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2008)

Awesome, thanks.  That was pretty much what I was thinking, but I wanted to make it clear before I got off on a false start.  

Re:  Mutations, I meant mutations in the way of the X-men, not in the way of most post-apoc games.  For the record, if I go post-apoc, there will be no mutations.   There *may* be randomized psychic powers... if I go that route.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 17, 2008)

Wik said:


> Re:  Mutations, I meant mutations in the way of the X-men, not in the way of most post-apoc games.




I know, but that's still ostensibly genetic mutation as explained in the Marvel Universe. Granted, it's scientifically implausible in our world, but still defined as genetic mutation (and, thus, science) per Marvel Physics


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## Andor (Dec 17, 2008)

Ahh comic book science. If only the real world worked that way. ;_;


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## Lord Xtheth (Dec 17, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Topicality. You will be scored on the prominance of The Big Theme in your submission. The inclusion of Other Things to Incorporate can help your Topicality score, as well. More topical means more points, basically.




Now, I'm not the smartest cookie out there, but I have no idea what you mean by topicality. I looked it up in an online dictionary:

*top⋅i⋅cal* 
*–adjective *1.pertaining to or dealing with matters of current or local interest: _a topical reference. _2.pertaining to the subject of a discourse, composition, or the like.3.of a place; local.4._Medicine/Medical_. of, pertaining to, or applied externally to a particular part of the body; local: _a topical anesthetic. _*–noun *5._Philately_. any of a collection of different stamps treating the same subject.

Now, this didn't help me one little bit. I'm thinking you mean point #2 on the meaning of Topical, but could you clarify for me?


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2008)

Basically, he's saying that if your game features magic in the forefront, you're going to get more points than if you were to release a fantasy game with 10 classes, and only one of which could use magic (and your magic rules only took up 3 pages).  The more your main themes show in the final product, the higher you score.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 18, 2008)

Wik said:


> Basically, he's saying that if your game features magic in the forefront, you're going to get more points than if you were to release a fantasy game with 10 classes, and only one of which could use magic (and your magic rules only took up 3 pages).  The more your main themes show in the final product, the higher you score.




That's it _exactly_  Thanks, Wik!


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## Jack Daniel (Dec 18, 2008)

&

(Get it?  The Great Conjunction?
...
...
...
Sorry.  I'm a dork and I know it.)


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## Nikosandros (Dec 18, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> *Work/Submission Window*
> 
> You can begin committing things to paper/photons on January 1, 2009. If I get a document with a creation date from 2008, it will be _automatically disqualified_ in order to remain fair to those who choose to put off actually writing their game until the aforementioned start date. I will _quit_ accepting submissions on February 28, 2009.



Wouldn't it better to reveal the theme at the beginning of the submission window? The creation date thing is trivial to circumvent.


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## Lord Xtheth (Dec 18, 2008)

Wik said:


> Basically, he's saying that if your game features magic in the forefront, you're going to get more points than if you were to release a fantasy game with 10 classes, and only one of which could use magic (and your magic rules only took up 3 pages). The more your main themes show in the final product, the higher you score.



 Oh... Thank you! 

*Feels embarrased for not figuring that out on my own*

Truthfully, this is the first time I've ever seen that word used... so it surprised and confused me.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 18, 2008)

Nikosandros said:


> Wouldn't it better to reveal the theme at the beginning of the submission window? The creation date thing is trivial to circumvent.




Well, maybe, but the theme has already been revealed. Barring time-travel, that bell can't be un-rung. That said, the rules are more a nod to fairness than some play at a giant, byzantine, labyrinth of law that participants need to navigate in order to enter (or that I need to monitor 24/7). If I get a 200-page entry with full-color artwork on day 12, somebody _obviously_ cheated.


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## Wik (Dec 18, 2008)

Lord Xtheth said:


> Oh... Thank you!
> 
> *Feels embarrased for not figuring that out on my own*
> 
> Truthfully, this is the first time I've ever seen that word used... so it surprised and confused me.




What's to be embarrassed about?  I can understand the confusion.  We all have those moments.

Got any ideas yet?  I'm leaning towards a post-apoc game.


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## Khuxan (Dec 18, 2008)

Wik said:


> Got any ideas yet?




I was going to tell you about the great ideas posted by a guy called "Wik" on his blog. But you probably already know about them .


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## EP (Dec 18, 2008)

Any limits on how many people can have their name submitted with this?  Co-writers, concept people, or is this just to be one designer only?


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## feuer_faust (Dec 18, 2008)

Count me in. This'll be a good exercise, since I procrastinate normally anyways. Also, now that I've replied, it'll keep track of this topic.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 18, 2008)

EP said:


> Any limits on how many people can have their name submitted with this?




Nope. If your gaming group, high school history class, or any other group of people wants create a game, I think they should be able to do so.


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## fuindordm (Dec 18, 2008)

It might generate interest to set up an official registry at the start of the contest. What if to enter, you must submit your name, a title, and perhaps a short summary (very short--I'm thinking 3-4 lines, tops) sometime during the first two weeks of January?

That list should be good advertising, and an interesting document in its own right.

Ben


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## jdrakeh (Dec 18, 2008)

fuindordm said:


> It might generate interest to set up an official registry at the start of the contest. What if to enter, you must submit your name, a title, and perhaps a short summary (very short--I'm thinking 3-4 lines, tops) sometime during the first two weeks of January?
> 
> That list should be good advertising, and an interesting document in its own right.
> 
> Ben




Not a bad idea for a highly organized, professional, contest. But this event isn't _that_ contest  Which might make this a good time to mention. . . 

I _really_ appreciate some of the suggestions that well-meaning people have been putting forth with regard to event organization and the like — but some well-meaning people need to step back and look at the nature of this contest for a moment. Or two moments. This ain't the WotC Setting Search 

This event is an impromptu contest forged in a few short hours on a public message board. I am a _single_ person with a 40+ hour-a-week job who is happily devoting a not insignificant amount of my free time to this endeavor for _absolutely no gain_. As it stands, I'm agreeing to grade game entries (potentially dozens of them) for free, gaining nothing in return for my efforts. I might even throw in a prize for the winner! 

That said, given the realities as they exist, as much as I would like to, I am _not_ going to invest any time or my personal money toward building an official contest website, setting up hosting for all contest submissions, setting up a mail server for participant correspondence, implementing a rigorous submission process that requires checking individual entry forms, etc.  

Most popular grassroots design contests don't do any of this until year two (and some of them _never_ do any of this). There is _absolutely no way_ that _I_ will be doing any of these things for _this_ contest. That said. . . if _this_ event goes well, anything is possible for _future_ contests, I imagine


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## fuindordm (Dec 18, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> That said, given the realities as they exist, as much as I would like to, I am _not_ going to invest any time or my personal money toward building an official contest website, setting up hosting for all contest submissions, setting up a mail server for participant correspondence, implementing a rigorous submission process that requires checking individual entry forms, etc.




Nor should you! Surely all the necessary activities can be hosted on a handful of ENworld Forum threads.

I was just thinking that if people commit to the contest at the beginning, they're more likely to submit something at the end. It would be a shame to work on something for two months then find you're the only one who bothered.

I hereby volunteer to compile the aforementioned document. If you wish to enter the contest, post your name, a title, and a summary of your idea in no more than three sentences to this thread.  I'll post the "official" list of participants on Jan. 15th.  All in favor?


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## weem (Dec 18, 2008)

> If you wish to enter the contest, post your name, a title, and a summary of your idea in no more than three sentences to this thread. I'll post the "official" list of participants on Jan. 15th.




Deadline for such a post?


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## fuindordm (Dec 18, 2008)

weem said:


> Deadline for such a post?




I guess that would be Jan. 14th.  I'll be putting together the list gradually as entries are posted, not all at once.

Ben


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## weem (Dec 19, 2008)

Cool - just wasn't sure how many days you were going to give yourself to do it.

I might be able to be involved then! (headed to Europe soon and won't be back until Jan 9 or so).

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out


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## Andor (Dec 19, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> If I get a 200-page entry with full-color artwork on day 12, somebody _obviously_ cheated.




No way man. I am just _that_ good.


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## Wik (Dec 19, 2008)

Khuxan said:


> I was going to tell you about the great ideas posted by a guy called "Wik" on his blog. But you probably already know about them .




Yeah.  Between you and me, I've been stealing shamelessly from the guy.  

***

Well, fuin, here's my entry.  I already have the very basics figured out.  

_D.S. Percival_, *"Dreamers"*:  The apocalypse happened three years ago, and nobody was awake to witness it.  Instead, they awoke months or even years later to a post-apocalyptic land, "gifted" with unusual psychic powers.  Now, numerous power groups struggle against magically-tainted enemies - and each other - to survive in this new world.


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## fuindordm (Dec 19, 2008)

Cool. You just acquired the dubious prestige of precedence. 

As the hour grows late, my parlance gets more baroque. Time for me to retire...

Ben


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## Jack7 (Dec 19, 2008)

I've got a paper due for the Navy in Jan. And some other work to push out.

But if I can clear everything up for my work schedule then I'll participate.
I've got a lot of things I'd like to change about how magic is normally portrayed in modern RPGs.

I just hope I can beat all the deadlines.


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## Iron Sky (Dec 20, 2008)

Hm... thanks for the spark that ignited an explosion of creativity!

I whipped up a quick blurb about what I've got so far for my entry:

_Netherwrack_: _The Revolution of Man_.
Under the starry skies of the Evernight, ever lit only by the bright, unmoving Daystar, the Cantos of Heaven rules mankind. For the Thousand Isles of Man dotting the infinite Aether Sea, the Cantos stands as the only defense against the Wrack; twisted creatures spawned out of the raw Nether currents that flow far beneath the unsubstantial mists of the Aether. 

The Cantos' Order of Innates, those rare men and women able to channel the Nether currents, not only hold back the creatures of the Netherwrack but also hold the souls of mankind in an iron grasp, demanding near-absolute adherance to the Cantos and subserviance to the Kings of the Cantos that have ruled the Thousand Isles since antiquity.

Until now.

No one knows from where the Oligarchy of Manos extracts the Nethergrains, motes of power that allow anyone access to the arcane Nether energies, but they have changed everything. 

An industrial revolution sparked by the new source of power changes the landscape. An iron religion is threatened by the loss of their monopoly on arcane might and the souls of man. Free Innates walk in the light of the Daystar, defying the Cantos' Inquisition. The Aetherborn that ever sail the Aether Sea report Aetherstorms of increasing virulence, revealing Netherwrack of terrible proportions. The mysterious Aetherials again walk amidst mankind on their inscrutable tasks. 

With a handful of Nethergrain, a peasant can overthrow a King of the Cantos. Everything is in flux. The Aether stirs, the old order crumbles, and none know what will take its place.

Welcome to _Netherwrack: the Revolution of Man_.


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

Iron Sky said:


> _Netherwrack_: _The Revolution of Man_.




Seems like a cool idea.  I have this sort of pseudo-steampunk image.  In any case, it seems like it'd be a lot of fun.  You've definitely got the power struggle figured out, and it sounds like you have a few distinct classes and/or races (Aetherborn?  Innates?  Aetherials?) worked out.

Are the PCs the common people, trying to bring down the corrupt regime?  Because those settings are always fun.  

all in all, it sounds like a very distinctive setting.  I'm curious about the mechanics - can't wait to see what you work out.


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## Iron Sky (Dec 20, 2008)

I like detailed yet open-ended campaign settings.  I figure the characters could do whatever they want: start a revolution against a Cantos King in a soot-blackened city, sail the Aether hunting Netherwrack, searching for treasure-laded Nethercraft wrecks, or try to find the edge of the world, hunt free Innates as Cantos Innates or try to topple the Oligarchy of Manos, maybe try discover the Oligarchy's secret or wander the Isles hunting Netherwrack monsters... whatever.

As for the system, it's one I whipped up in about an hour after it woke me up in the middle of the night (happens sometimes, can't sleep until I write it down).

Right now, a character is a mix of Qualities (Intellect, Strength, Passion, Courage, etc) and Capabilities(Combat, Survival, Nethercraft, Social, etc).

I like the Capabilities I've created, but the Qualities need some refinement since it's kind-of a jumble.  Bascially, for each Sphere of a Character(Mind, Body, Soul) there's a set of similar traits.  The strength of Mind is Intellect, strength of Body is Might, strength of Soul is Passion.  The application of Mind is Wit, application of Body is Agility, application of Soul is (Self)Control.  Endurance of Mind is Will, endurance of Body is Toughness, endurance of Soul is Courage.

Those are the basics that I like, I've just got a few extras that I'm trying to figure out how to integrate in there and wondering about maybe paring down a column or combining some things.  I'll sleep on it and look at it again tomorrow.

Annoying part is I have inspiration split between this and a Flash game I've been working on all week... don't know which one to work on.


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

Sounds kind of cool - how are you putting in the "magic", though?  Do PCs cast spells?  Do...  sorry, I'm asking too many questions.  It's just nice to see what the competition is up to - nice knowing I'm not the only one into this.

Since I fully believe in sharing information, my big problem right now concerns mechanics.  I'm torn between a Shadowrun (4e) system - Attribute dice + Skill Dice, individual dice grant successes on a 5 or 6, and you count successes.  It's simple, and it allows for a "shades of success".  The other is a percentile system that's also rather simple (and allows for characters to level their skills as they use them, similar to _Oblivion_), but doesn't work too well with "shades of success" (much like d20, it's more of a Boolean "Success or Failure").  

I like the percentage system, since I know it can be easily written up and I think there's a lot I can do with it, but some of the math is annoying me.  The other problem concerns randomization in Character Creation.  I want power acquisition to be random, but do I stop there?  Random attributes could be fun, too.

Finally, I'm sort of wondering how I can put in the "Dreamlands" and make them accessible in a game setting.  Since I want a part of the game to revolve around the interpretation and exploration of dreams, how do I keep the whole group involved?


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## resistor (Dec 20, 2008)

I think I might have to be the odd one out and come up with a highly narrativist system.  Throw in conflict resolution rather than task resolution, just to confused people.  ;-)

I'm _also_ pondering a post-apocalyptic setting, though a magical one.  The "world" of the game consists of the ruins of a truly massive city (on the order of a modern metropolis) and its suburbs.  At the center of the city stands a gargantuan monolith of unknown purpose.

To keep things familiar, I'm keeping an arcane/divine division, as in D&D, to create a "reason" versus "faith" primary conflict.  All of the characters are mages, their magic fueled to varying degrees either by their faith in the numerous cults that have sprung up (the organized religions having been wiped out in the apocalypse), or through the study of magical trinkets and artifacts that survived the apocalypse, of which the monolith is the greatest example.

Of course, when I write "magic," I don't mean high fantasy style magic.  Survival without magic is difficult at best, and even with it things can get tough at times.  Add in some magical mutants, villagers who have given in to cannibalism, and all the other great post-apoc tropes, and you don't have a very pleasant place to live.

I haven't figured out exactly how it will fit into the normal play cycle, but the "near omnipresent threat" will be the fact that the monolith is a ticking timebomb: it is the source of the apocalypse, and its triggering mechanism is very sensitive to large quantities of magic...

---

System-wise, I probably _will_ go more narrative than most of what has been bandied about, though probably not as far as conflict resolution (it's just too meta for me).  I'm a big fan of FATE, for example.  I'm also trying to figure out a way to incorporate a token-pooling system with different colored tokens representing faith and reason.


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

Dude, that sounds pretty cool.  I think there's room enough in this competition to allow two post-apoc games.  It sounds like there are going to be a few awesome entries at the end of this, eh?


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## Jack7 (Dec 20, 2008)

> I'm also trying to figure out a way to incorporate a token-pooling system with different colored tokens representing faith and reason.




I too incorporated faith and reason into my game design, though not as a token system.

I intend to participate unless work precludes me. So this is my entry post.


*Name:* Jack

*Title*: _*Transformations*_ (Working Title - subject to later alteration)

*Summary Statement:* Nothing works as predicted, and few things are as they appear. God and magic are both well beyond mortal control. And so Dwarves, Elves, Giants, and Men all seek to transform what is not, into what can be.


I already have working draft notes of the races, professions, how arcane magic will work (I am employing a system that to my knowledge has never been done in a game before), how the relationship between God and divine magic (ditto to arcane magic) will work, and so forth. I have some of the background/support/milieu material in sketch form as well as ideas for the ruined city (I will probably be using a fantasy version of the city of Troy, in which the ruins of the city consist of more than one layer/level of old city/historical ruins).

I'm also considering some ideas regarding magical items, how they will function, not function, and be capable of transformation.

I may try to fold the whole effort into my previous ideas regarding setting, or I may let it stand alone.


_I'm assuming we retain *all future/publication rights to our project,* is that correct James?_


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## fuindordm (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm glad to see we have some contestants! Please feel free to edit your summary statement if you feel the need.

Here's my own idea:

B. Mathiesen, _The Jewel of Faith._ In a parallel Biblical age, the Children of Oshem have been punished for their hubris. Their minds no longer understand the Words of Creation, while their bodies have diminished and diversified. Amid angels, djinn and myriad daemons, humans now forge their own stories and build the first Empire.

-----

The rules will probably be fairly traditional for RPGs, drawing freely on the dozens of games I've read in the past, but each mechanic will be selected and perhaps modified to support the atmosphere I have in mind. 

The innovative thing about it will be a mechanism for the players to take turns GMing even within a single session. I would like to create a game that supports the "stories within stories" structure of the Arabian Knights--so that if a player takes a fancy to some element of the main plot they can 'interrupt' the action to spin off a sub-adventure (or maybe just a tall tale). The DM becomes one of the players, and everyone is rewarded for taking part in increasing the depth of the world.

I have some nebulous ideas in the back of my head for how to justify this within the setting and create incentives for this sort of behavior among the players and GM alike.


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## Jack7 (Dec 20, 2008)

_*I like many of the ideas being generated so far.*_

I see a lot of potential for interesting developments regarding the use of both Divine and Arcane magic.

I forgot to ask James, what exactly are the formatting requirements? What kind of formats do you want to accept?

I know you want them posted openly on threads, or linked, but in interests of hosting space would it not be better to submit them to you? 50 pages is a lot of space and assuming there are quite a few entries...


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

Jack:  Since there were no claims on ownership, you would still retain all publishing rights.  That being said, if you wanted to try and publish something you've submitted elsewhere for free, there may be a bit of snag.  

I think the games should be posted in a public forum, if not here then on some free site.  I mean, I want to read them all and play them all!  

A lot more works with religious nature than I thought there'd be.  I mean, really, they all have a bit of the religious in them, don't they?  Great minds, and all that jazz, I guess.

As for formatting, I personally plan on Times New Roman text, size 10.5, with slightly smaller tables.  Two columns, with size 12 titles per section of text.  Small indents, and single-spaced.  

Way I figure it, Drakeh would have given us parameters to follow if he really cared about it.  That being said, I think it'd be lame for someone to submit an entry in size 7 font so they can sort of bypass the page restriction.


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

fuindordm said:


> B. Mathiesen, _The Jewel of Faith._ In a parallel Biblical age, the Children of Oshem have been punished for their hubris. Their minds no longer understand the Words of Creation, while their bodies have diminished and diversified. Amid angels, djinn and myriad daemons, humans now forge their own stories and build the first Empire.




I think it's about time for someone to take a look at a biblical RPG - I mean, there was that d20 supplement, but it never really took off.  I think a fantastic biblical game could be a lot of fun, especially when you start taking from other sources.  

The Multi-GM angle should be a lot of fun - it was something I was considering doing, too, though to a lesser extent (in my ideas, players could spend tokens to temporarily become a GM to alter the story a bit, maybe introducing an NPC or altering an event).  I ran into some snags that I Couldn't get over, so I'm curious to see how you deal with the design problems.  

Another great thing about going biblical is free art is going to be very easy to find - any clip art site is going to have a huge range of usable art.  

Looking forward to seeing what you produce.


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## Jack7 (Dec 20, 2008)

> Jack: Since there were no claims on ownership, you would still retain all publishing rights. That being said, if you wanted to try and publish something you've submitted elsewhere for free, there may be a bit of snag.
> 
> I think the games should be posted in a public forum, if not here then on some free site. I mean, I want to read them all and play them all!





That's why I asked. I may compete then, not publicly or for the win or prize, but for the feedback on design principles.

That is when I've completed the effort I would send copies of the project to whoever wished for review, and they could play-test them, but I wouldn't post publicly, especially the proprietary materials.




> A lot more works with religious nature than I thought there'd be. I mean, really, they all have a bit of the religious in them, don't they? Great minds, and all that jazz, I guess.





I noticed that too.
Personally I'm as anxious to redesign the principles upon which Divine magic operates as I am to redesign the principles upon which Arcane magic works.

I also like Fuin's idea of angels and daemons (and of Arabian Knights, though I'm not gonna pursue that angle, I think it will be an excellent background for magical development), and had already started out with an idea of directly interjecting angels and demons in my game as background agents, guiding, assisting, or opposing players, though not directly involved as parties. I think there will be some aspects of parallel development in many of the projects. 

I also want to reintroduce the idea of *"Heroism"* as central to fantasy RPGs. As central an idea as magic, and related to magic.


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## Jack7 (Dec 20, 2008)

> I think it's about time for someone to take a look at a biblical RPG - I mean, there was that d20 supplement, but it never really took off. I think a fantastic biblical game could be a lot of fun, especially when you start taking from other sources.




I completely agree. My world setting uses real world religions in it, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, and since the party is based out of Constantinople it is both real world, and "Biblical" for it's age (the time period in which it is set, circa 800 AD). That is everything in the setting of the human world is involving cultures derived from historical and Biblical roots. But it is not biblical per se, that is I didn't set out to write a game or even the setting in the active biblical ages. Rather the Bible and many of the things that happen in it serve as the historical, cultural and religious basis of my milieu. And yet it has been the most popular and interesting setting my players have ever gamed in according to them. And I think that is probably because of the combination of Real World History and Real World religious themes.

I cannot be absolutely certain Wik but I think _*Green Ronin*_ did a Biblical game. I went there one time doing research for developing my background in Constantinople and think I saw one. I didn't buy it though, I ended up buying their _Medieval Player's Manual._


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## fuindordm (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words, folks.  The mechanics are pretty fuzzy still, but the themes are something I've been thinking about for a long time. 

For one thing, I've never found the typical Fantasy Pantheon very satisfying. So for a while now, my games have been toying with the idea of Fantasy Monotheism and how it could play out. 

When I say a Parallel Biblical Age, I'm not thinking about RPing on Earth. It's more of a thought experiment on how some of the most evocative Biblical themes might have played out in a monotheistic fantasy setting. As you can probably tell, one of those themes is the legend of Babel.

My idea for one form of (arcane) power is that while no one can understand the True Speech, magicians can still record and use fragments of it. The meaning and grammar of the True Speech lies forever beyond the reach of mortals, so the fragments people have managed to record appear as powerful but illogical spells. No one can learn this language, even though texts are available; at best they might notice that a certain syllable or pattern appears in _most _of the known fragments that evoke fire. The greatest intellects might be able to put together new sequences that are grammatically valid through a combination of inference, dedication and luck. Most magicians, however, learn their spells by rote.

Another form of magic would bargain with and/or control the spiritual beings that inhabit the world. This would blur the line between arcane and divine.

It's great to see everyone's ideas for how magic can be something more than an arbitrary plot device. 

Cheers,
Ben


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## Wik (Dec 20, 2008)

Jack7 said:


> I cannot be absolutely certain Wik but I think _*Green Ronin*_ did a Biblical game. I went there one time doing research for developing my background in Constantinople and think I saw one. I didn't buy it though, I ended up buying their _Medieval Player's Manual._




Yeah, it's called "Testament".  It's the one I was talking about when I said this:



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> I think it's about time for someone to take a look at a biblical RPG - I mean, there was that d20 supplement, but it never really took off. I think a fantastic biblical game could be a lot of fun, especially when you start taking from other sources.




***

While I'm on the computer, I think I should mention something to those who are considering entering but are holding back because they may think they can't come up with some crazy-original stuff (I mean, we have a lot of fringe entries right now that seem pretty neat).  Here it is:  you don't need to re-invent the wheel.  

There is plenty of room for someone to enter a classic D&D game with a few minor variations - making it more anime, more wuxia, more gritty, more video-game, or more Harry Potter are all angles you can pursue here.  You do not need to go the route that's been pursued so far, that of lofty design goals and whole new takes on familiar themes.  You can win this competition with something more traditional.

I guess I'm saying is, don't let us wordy blowhards scare you out of competing.  Anyone can win this.


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## Jack7 (Dec 20, 2008)

> I guess I'm saying is, don't let us wordy blowhards scare you out of competing. Anyone can win this.




Good advice. _*Simple often beats complex in usefulness.*_




> When I say a Parallel Biblical Age, I'm not thinking about RPing on Earth. It's more of a thought experiment on how some of the most evocative Biblical themes might have played out in a monotheistic fantasy setting. As you can probably tell, one of those themes is the legend of Babel.
> 
> My idea for one form of (arcane) power is that while no one can understand the True Speech, magicians can still record and use fragments of it. The meaning and grammar of the True Speech lies forever beyond the reach of mortals, so the fragments people have managed to record appear as powerful but illogical spells. No one can learn this language, even though texts are available; at best they might notice that a certain syllable or pattern appears in most of the known fragments that evoke fire. The greatest intellects might be able to put together new sequences that are grammatically valid through a combination of inference, dedication and luck. Most magicians, however, learn their spells by rote.




Interesting approach to the _*True Names*_ principle of magic and Divine magic. I like the interjection of the story of Babel as well, and your take on it. If that's the case then you might find this website interesting as a set of ideas about language and Divine language.

*Meru Foundation Research: Hebrew Alphabet, Genesis, Geometric Metaphor, and Kabbalah*




> For one thing, I've never found the typical Fantasy Pantheon very satisfying. So for a while now, my games have been toying with the idea of Fantasy Monotheism and how it could play out.




_Not very satisfying_, *nor very useful* as regards Divine magic. I couldn't agree more.


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## Loonook (Dec 21, 2008)

Well... here are the basic ideas which have come into my mind:

In a small town deep in the backwoods, Ezekiel Raymond Feldspar keeps a room full of bright lamps.  A coot amongst a society filled with them, Feldspar always claimed knowledge of things from beyond the known world.  Having explored for half of his hundred and ten years, his collection of glass, paper, and other illuminations was beyond reproach.  

In 2003, Ezekiel Feldspar's remains were found, and his famous collection had been broken apart, spread to the four winds of his property.  Even now, some say you can hear strange noises in the hills around Feldspar House, and many refuse to go there.

That which is too powerful, too great for the human mind to comprehend is cast away by the collective will.  Those who forget, the Sleepers, refuse to believe that such a great claw into their fragile psyche could truly exist.  However, there are a handful of men and women who collect the signs and sigil of societies long forgotten.  The Lamplighters keep their counsels to themselves, but they must fend against the Marti, those who have taken on the aspects of these old cultures and seek to return them to their former glory.  Between these realms lie a thousand banes . . . and a thousand boons.

History breeds knowledge, knowledge breeds power.  Tapping into the powers of forgotten rites, through blood, bone, and mind, propel the coming Age.

---

Really bad off-the-top, but it'll come together.  Hopefully.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Andor (Dec 21, 2008)

Meanwhile I'm going to give myself the working title of "Magic: The Slathering. A game of magial jams and jellies."

Not too much is settled yet but I'm working on a charater generation system centered around the use of legos.

Or maybe not....  

Interestingly most of entries so far are going the exact opposite direction from me on religeon, with an emphasis on monotheism and organized religious structures. I figuring on more of a 'Land of 10,000 gods' feel with a very personal relationship with the gods (for those who bother to have one.)

I will state that if my system can't give you these guys as PCs, I'm not going to bother entering it.


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## Jack7 (Dec 21, 2008)

Andor, I know who the first guy is... but is that second dude the GEICO Caveman?


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## RandomCitizenX (Dec 21, 2008)

Figured it was about time to post my pitch, since details are finally starting to come together enough:

Name: Black Magic Blues

Genre: Noir/Pulp

Summary: Magic is everywhere, but few possess the determination and skill to cultivate the limited powers found in nearly everyone. In the wake of the last great war, when horrors of both technology and long forgotten arts were unleashed, countless secret societies and rebel groups have sprung up with the hopes of seizing power. When the chips are down will you rise to greatness or be ground into dust by those who succeed? The system itself is being built around a fairly free form magic system and character advancement that gives players greater control of their character's story.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 21, 2008)

Jack7 said:


> I forgot to ask James, what exactly are the formatting requirements? What kind of formats do you want to accept?
> 
> I know you want them posted openly on threads, or linked, but in interests of hosting space would it not be better to submit them to you? 50 pages is a lot of space and assuming there are quite a few entries...




Posting them up here or hosting the files yourself are the options, I'm afraid. As I mention earlier, I really can't set up a mail server/file archive/etc to process or host your submissions for you. 

That said, you can use free services like Mediafire or Rapidshare to host your submissions, or host them on your _own_ server (if you have one). 

Any format that doesn't require me to use some high-dollar, relatively obscure, software to read it is fine (so, no Quark submissions, k?)  HTML, RTF, PDF, DOC, TXT and such are just fine.


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## Andor (Dec 21, 2008)

Jack7 said:


> Andor, I know who the first guy is... but is that second dude the GEICO Caveman?




No, that's one of the preachers from "The life of Brian." The one going one about the god with seven heads and seven swords.


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## fuindordm (Dec 21, 2008)

Loonook said:


> Well... here are the basic ideas which have come into my mind:
> In 2003, Ezekiel Feldspar's remains were found, and his famous collection had been broken apart, spread to the four winds of his property.  Even now, some say you can hear strange noises in the hills around Feldspar House, and many refuse to go there.
> 
> ...The Lamplighters keep their counsels to themselves, but they must fend against the Marti, those who have taken on the aspects of these old cultures and seek to return them to their former glory.  Between these realms lie a thousand banes . . . and a thousand boons.




This is very evocative stuff, Loonook. Call of Cthulhu meets The Lost Room? There are lots of ways to spin this into something with a uniquely dreadful atmosphere. I look forward to hearing more...

Ben


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## fuindordm (Dec 21, 2008)

Jack7: thanks for the link.  Its true that the magic of True Names is kind of old hat, but at the same time it's one of the most deeply ingrained ideas in human mythology. So I don't feel too bad about including it.  



Andor said:


> Interestingly most of entries so far are going the exact opposite direction from me on religion, with an emphasis on monotheism and organized religious structures. I figuring on more of a 'Land of 10,000 gods' feel with a very personal relationship with the gods (for those who bother to have one.)




I don't see much organization of religion yet, actually, though that may come with time. I like the "small gods" idea too, although what distinguishes an army of relatively weak gods from the animistic worship of 'spirits of the land, family, tree, cooking-pot...' ?  

You could borrow from Wraith and let each player RP anther player's personal god.   It might degenerate into mutual back-rubbing if all the gods are benevolent, however.

Ben


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## Jack7 (Dec 21, 2008)

> Its true that the magic of True Names is kind of old hat, but at the same time it's one of the most deeply ingrained ideas in human mythology. So I don't feel too bad about including it.




*Indeed it is,* _and no I wouldn't feel bad about it._
There's very little new under the sun anyways.
To each generation though it is as if the world is reborn - until, that is, they learn it is in fact, very, very ancient. And that what is new is new only by virtue of the fact that it is so old that it was long ago forgotten.

I visited your website by the way and found it interesting. One of my jobs is as a non-fiction writer, and many articles, white papers, etc. that I write involve materials in the various fields of science.

I thought you had an interesting take on vocabulary as the basis of communicative effectiveness and simplicity of understanding. Being an amateur philologist, and having always been interested in both the science and art of communications, I read over your site with some curiosity.

I may visit your site again some day for other projects.


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## Khuxan (Dec 22, 2008)

I've been thinking about this for a few days, but haven't come up with anything substantial. I'll share with you some of the ideas that have been floating around in my head:

Magic is only magic when the player characters don't have it. A sword & sorcery setting where the PCs only have swords presents itself, as does a more medieval setting where the PCs are witch hunters and dragon slayers equipped only with steel and fire. 
The city of Heaven collapses into an Eden-like world. In a sudden end to their innocent lives, the hunter-gatherer natives realise that their own "morally pure" unclothed and nomadic existence was a simple ploy to keep them powerless by treacherous and decadent gods. They proceed to loot the city and remark the world in their own image.
In a magic-less ancient setting, the PCs are armed with bronze weapons and flaming torches. They face linnorms - giant centipedes - and dragons - crocodiles - and are pursued by the fey - primitive humans dwelling in the universe. But at some moments during the story, the world shifts and heroes become mythic heroes equipped with mighty blades twice their height, slaying fire-spitting wyverns and illusionist fairy princes. 
A patchwork city on the edge of time, built from cities that are no more. Wayward travellers here find themselves blessed with sorcerous powers - but these wizards are closer to superheroes in terms of form and ability. 
Children slip into the realm of the fey, become transformed by an encounter with the fairy folk, and then must return to their own lives and make sense of their capricious blessing.

As you see, there are a few ideas floating about in my head but I haven't been able to tame them into something workable. I think the biggest problem I'm running into is how to make magic seem magical, instead of another tool for an adventuring party.


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## Wik (Dec 22, 2008)

Khuxan said:


> Children slip into the realm of the fey, become transformed by an encounter with the fairy folk, and then must return to their own lives and make sense of their capricious blessing




I like this one.  It's different from what's already detailed, yet not so "gonzo" that it wouldn't work.


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## EP (Dec 22, 2008)

What the hell, I'll chime in with mine.  The mechanics haven't been worked out yet (too much Christmas stuff to do and I promised the little woman I would wait until the January 1st start date to get writing), but the setting and concept have been.

It's called *Ignition* and involves the discovery of a new form of radiation 40 years from now that is harnessed to create magic.  Casters wear a biomechanical suit to process the surrounding radiation and convert it to _radiant energy_.  The idea is that magic will be new and free-formed, so it will be presented as individual groups which can be used in any way imaginable to the player.  Characters can use a certain number of spells based on their suits and can learn to create their own unique spells and master them for easier use as time goes on.

And now that I've said it out loud, I have to work on it.  No choice.


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## pawsplay (Dec 22, 2008)

My entry (no title yet):

Dreamers, each wielding a special magic Sceptre, do battle with the King of Nothing and his shadow things in a ruined city that seems to have doors to everywhere. The King of Nothing will stop at nothing to find and capture them, for it has been foretold that one from the waking world will one day cast him down.


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## Aeolius (Dec 22, 2008)

My campaign already utilizes standard D&D magics, psionics, warlocks, the Dreamscape (Heroes of Horror + Manual of the Planes), incarnum, and Tome of Magic.

   I have given some thought to adding ley line magic, "sponsored" hag rituals (similar to the Fiend of Blasphemy in Fiend Folio), and adding a bard variant that accesses a "universal song" in a manner similar to the game Loom .


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## Jack7 (Dec 23, 2008)

> It's called Ignition and involves the discovery of a new form of radiation 40 years from now that is harnessed to create magic...




That kinda reminds me of the book, _the Light Ages_.




> Dreamers, each wielding a special magic Sceptre, do battle with the King of Nothing and his shadow things in a ruined city that seems to have doors to everywhere. The King of Nothing will stop at nothing to find and capture them, for it has been foretold that one from the waking world will one day cast him down.




I don't know how exactly you'd make a game out of it, but it sounds like it would make one helluvah good short story too. You should write that up.




> I have given some thought to adding ley line magic, "sponsored" hag rituals (similar to the Fiend of Blasphemy in Fiend Folio), and adding a bard variant that accesses a "universal song" in a manner similar to the game Loom .




That _*Loom*_ game sounds really fascinating. I did a paper not long ago about encryption techniques using environmental encoding as a method for transmission of covert data. Sub-encoded music was one avenue I was exploring. Never heard of that game before but it sounds worth looking into. Be interested in seeing how you translate it to play as an RPG technique.

Well, now that I've eaten I'm heading out.
Sounds like an interesting set of projects.


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## Wik (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, I for one am really excited about everything going on.  Personally, I've got many of the kinks in my system figured out, and I've got a baseline mechanics system written up on paper - I'm really looking forward to the 1st so I can get stuff done.

I like seeing that someone else has touched on a "Dreamlands" idea, though Pawsplay has taken it much further than I have.  I'm still trying to find a way to allow characters to explore the dream realms as a group, so I don't have to split the party.

(The other option would be to have dreaming come up as a skill check or some minor point of play that could have in-game benefits, or maybe make it like the Astral in Shadowrun

Actually getting started on writing is going to be fun.


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## Jack7 (Dec 27, 2008)

I went to see two old buddies of mine and their families tonight. 

We did and discussed a lot of things together, in general, literature, the war, Intel matters, science, history, the RBN and Georgia, Lovecraft, _Lost_, etc. but one thing we discussed was in relation to games and so forth. (Both of them - they're brothers - and I used to play D&D together when we were kids. Now their kids also play as does one of mine.)

Anywho our conversation eventually ranged over matters of design and we discussed analogical thinking, digital thinking, human behavior, mechanics, psychological bio-mechanics, playability, rules, simulations (I sometimes design training simulations and scenarios as part of my work) and what I call game-devised genre-based "Counter-Realism."

Anyways it made me really rethink some of the things I was already thinking about doing, and now I'm seriously considering incorporating some of the things we discussed tonight into my design.


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## fuindordm (Dec 30, 2008)

*Rules and Contestants*

I hope you all had an enjoyable holiday!  I spent time in a tiny village in the southwest of France, where 42 church bells woke me up every morning at 8am sharp. We were even lucky enough to get snow on the day after Christmas, something we don't see a lot of in Paris.

Anyway...

Here is a Word document summarizing the rules and openly declared contestants to the Great Conjunction. If a setting description was too long, I took what seemed to be the most representative paragraph.

Enjoy the contest, and keep thinking!

Ben


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## Jack7 (Dec 31, 2008)

Some of the things I'm working on thus far: *Developmental Proceedings*


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## Halivar (Dec 31, 2008)

Eh, the sucky thing about _having_ to declare before Jan 15th is this: I wouldn't know if I would have a game ready by the Feb 28th deadline until it was almost finished. I like the OP's idea of a more casual "send it in when it's finished" contest. The Interactive Fiction contest has been run this way for quite some time, and it's worked fantastically.


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## Wik (Dec 31, 2008)

Halivar said:


> Eh, the sucky thing about _having_ to declare before Jan 15th is this: I wouldn't know if I would have a game ready by the Feb 28th deadline until it was almost finished. I like the OP's idea of a more casual "send it in when it's finished" contest. The Interactive Fiction contest has been run this way for quite some time, and it's worked fantastically.




You don't need to declare... it's just something that was kindly put together to give people an idea what's going on.  Feel free to start - there's as much pressure as you wish.  

Thanks for doing this, Fuin - I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes out of this.  I already have my basic mechanic map put together.


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## Talath (Dec 31, 2008)

As I've said in another thread, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring. And since we are tossing around summaries: 

*Children of a Crimson Dawn*

_How does one rule the world? Fear and power. For the Order of the Crimson Sunburst, their closely guarded secrets of magic have kept enemies and rivals at bay for thousands of years. However, when a little known prophecy by one of their own fortells the coming of many years of disaster followed by the destruction of the order, horror is felt when suddenly, people who could not use magic, now find themselves able to. Political unrest turns the unfriendly into the hostile, and suddenly war seems to be on the horizon, with those who can wield the power of magic cast at the front of the line in an arms race to claim those who wield the power._

I have a few monthes to work on it, so this suits me for now.


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## fuindordm (Dec 31, 2008)

Talath said:


> *Children of a Crimson Dawn*
> 
> _How does one rule the world? Fear and power. For the Order of the Crimson Sunburst, their closely guarded secrets of magic have kept enemies and rivals at bay for thousands of years. However, when a little known prophecy by one of their own foretells the coming of many years of disaster followed by the destruction of the order, horror is felt when suddenly, people who could not use magic, now find themselves able to. Political unrest turns the unfriendly into the hostile, and suddenly war seems to be on the horizon, with those who can wield the power of magic cast at the front of the line in an arms race to claim those who wield the power._
> 
> I have a few months to work on it, so this suits me for now.




The interesting thing about this setting is that I could see it working equally well whether the PCs are 'old guard' or 'new guard'. The two campaigns would have very different flavors.

Anyway, the entry is duly noted.

Halivar: The main reason for the list is to encourage those people working on the contest.  Feel free to work in the background if you're more comfortable. 

Ben


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## Halivar (Dec 31, 2008)

Ok, I'm thinking of breaking out of the traditional RPG party-level paradigm for macro-level competitive play. Each player is a wizard of great power. As such, they are also factional leaders. PC's have personal stats *and* factional stats. Gameplay is a mix of party-level skirmish and macro-level diplomacy. The DM controls an antogonist agent against which the players can choose to ally their factions. *Or*, the players can play each other off against the antagonist for their own gains.


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## Wik (Dec 31, 2008)

Halivar said:


> Ok, I'm thinking of breaking out of the traditional RPG party-level paradigm for macro-level competitive play. Each player is a wizard of great power. As such, they are also factional leaders. PC's have personal stats *and* factional stats. Gameplay is a mix of party-level skirmish and macro-level diplomacy. The DM controls an antogonist agent against which the players can choose to ally their factions. *Or*, the players can play each other off against the antagonist for their own gains.




That sounds really cool.  Sort of like a better version of TSR's old BIRTHRIGHT, or maybe the Age of Wonders computer game.  I think it'd be neat to have magical power tie into lands (sort of like both those games), to encourage the wizards to acquire lands or power.  A sort of "agenda" could be randomly dealt to each player, so they could conspire to accomplish their own gains...

...in any case, it sounds like the type of game I'd love to play.  Looking forward to it!


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## Halivar (Dec 31, 2008)

Wik said:


> I think it'd be neat to have magical power tie into lands (sort of like both those games), to encourage the wizards to acquire lands or power.



Hah! "D&D: The Gathering"

I'm actually thinking about having it where wizards can choose from a variety of power bases, including lands, guilds, colleges, or churches. But yeah, land acquisition will be a part of the game.


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## Wik (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, folks - it's 2009 now, and we can officially begin work on our respective games.  Best of luck to all of you, and here's hoping we get a good yield of fine indy games.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jan 1, 2009)

Wik said:


> Well, folks - it's 2009 now, and we can officially begin work on our respective games. Best of luck to all of you, and here's hoping we get a good yield of fine indy games.



 Officially started!

I hope what I've been coming up with is as good on paper as it seems in my head.


Oh yeah

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!


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## fuindordm (Jan 2, 2009)

*The Jewel of Faith: progress*

Well, I started writing today. As the ideas came pouring out, I realized I have a lot of work to do to cram a complete RPG into 30 pages.  Font size and formatting can only take you so far...and I doubt there will be any art to speak of!

Still, for entertainment purposes only, I thought I'd share the outline. Is anything missing?

I. Setting and Themes
A. A spiritual world, a different kind of magic
	B. Parallel prehistory, an ancient worldview
	C. Creating the world through play: stories within stories
	D. The Jewel of Virtue
II. The Player Character
	A. Attributes
	B. Skills
	C. Races
	D. Heroic Archetypes
	E. Equipment
III. Skills and Exploits
	A. Prowess skills: athletics and weapons
	B. Gnosis skills: lore and analysis
	C. Charisma skills: manipulation, negotiation and performance
	D. Heroic exploits (mundane powers with skill prerequisites)
IV. Forms of Magic
	A. True Speech, the enigma of lost grace
	B. Miracles of Virtue
	C. Consorting with spiritual beings
		1. Angels
		2. Djinn
		3. Demons
	D. Artifacts, relics, and other remnants
	E. Gates
V. Playing the Game
	A. Before you begin
	B. Conflict and task resolution
	C. Frameworks and stories
	D. Exchanging roles
	E. Character advancement
	F. Example of play
VI. Hazards and obstacles
	A. Beasts and monsters
	B. Unique and spiritual creatures
	C. Environmental hazards
	D. Conspiracies
VII. Advanced options
	A. Parallel frameworks
	B. Multiple incarnations
	C. Ahriman’s tempation


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## feuer_faust (Jan 2, 2009)

2009. I"m just now starting to think of a setting and system. We'll see what develops.


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## Wik (Jan 2, 2009)

fuindordm said:


> Well, I started writing today. As the ideas came pouring out, I realized I have a lot of work to do to cram a complete RPG into *50* pages.  Font size and formatting can only take you so far...and I doubt there will be any art to speak of!




There.  Fixed it for you.



> Still, for entertainment purposes only, I thought I'd share the outline. Is anything missing?
> 
> I. Setting and Themes
> A. A spiritual world, a different kind of magic
> ...




I don't know if an Example of Play is really necessary;  I think it's safe to assume that we all know what an RPG is - no point wasting space.  I`m a little interested to see how conspiracies can tie into a biblical RPG.

What sort of Heroic Archetypes (I`m assuming classes, here) are you working on?


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## jdrakeh (Jan 2, 2009)

feuer_faust said:


> 2009. I"m just now starting to think of a setting and system. We'll see what develops.




Excellent! And welcome to ENWorld, dude!


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## fuindordm (Jan 2, 2009)

50 pages... OK, that helps a lot. Thanks for the reminder!



Wik said:


> I don't know if an Example of Play is really necessary;  I think it's safe to assume that we all know what an RPG is - no point wasting space.  I`m a little interested to see how conspiracies can tie into a biblical RPG.
> 
> What sort of Heroic Archetypes (I`m assuming classes, here) are you working on?




I wanted an example to demonstrate how a player's story can be inserted into the game, even interrupting the action.  I don't know if that aspect of the RPG is really possible yet, but that was the intent.

The archetypes are just going to be brief construction kits, a bit like Shadowrun. The purpose is to provide a nice long list of what sorts of people are likely to be 'adventurers' in the setting. 

Conspiracies is shorthand for social obstacles  There are monsters and physical hazards to challenge the body, mysteries and puzzles to challenge the mind, conspiracies against players or the whole party to challenge their social acumen. 

Ben


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## Jack7 (Jan 2, 2009)

Fuin (Ben),

you and I are developing a number of project themes in parallel (though I doubt in the same forms/formats/specific approaches). Specifically these:

_A. A spiritual world, a different kind of magic
B. Parallel prehistory, an ancient worldview
D. The Jewel of Virtue
II. The Player Character
A. Attributes
B. Skills
C. Races
D. Heroic Archetypes
B. Miracles of Virtue
C. Consorting with spiritual beings
1. Angels
3. Demons
D. Artifacts, relics, and other remnants
E. Gates
VI. Hazards and obstacles
A. Beasts and monsters
B. Unique and spiritual creatures
C. Environmental hazards
D. Conspiracies_


I suspect we won't be the only ones independently developing parallel themes, elements, basic background parameters, and even philosophical approaches.

I look forward to studying many of these projects.


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## fuindordm (Jan 3, 2009)

Khuxan wrote: Magic is only magic if the players don't have it.
Jack7 wrote: Magic should be closer to the soul than to science, more terrifying than technological.

These two statements really resonate with me. How have other RPGs addressed the issue? I'm not widely read in RPGs, but it might be interesting to toss some ideas around.

*Warhammer*: There is always a small but significant chance of incurring a nasty side effect from Chaos.
*Seventh Sea*: PC access to magic is _very _specialized, and later sourcebooks indicate that magic is a poisoned apple, granting short-term power but harmful to the universe itself.
*Grim Tales*: magic greatly and immediately weakens the caster.
*Cthulhu d20*: magic not only weakens the caster, it is a limited resource (due to SAN loss) over the character's entire career.

All these ideas have one thing in common: magic is kept rare in the campaign world by making it dangerous. This also limits it to all but the most dedicated PCs, in opposition to D&D v.1-3 where spells are just another tool available to the majority of adventurers.

Jack is hinting at a different approach: the rules of magic can change over the course of play, preventing the players from ever knowing its rules fully. (I may, of course, be completely missing the mark--but that's to be expected.) 

Injecting mystery and rarity into magic is a worthy goal of any fantasy RPG. One of the things I am considering is how I can do this _without _necessarily making magic a sinister force. 

One possibility is to set up the rules so that beginning characters don't have the resources to actually use magic. At best they can construct a character who is capable of learning it as the campaign progresses. In this sort of RPG the players don't have it, and you at least have the potential to maintain a sense of wonder at the beginning of the story--perhaps at the risk of grandstanding.

I'm interested in hearing other people's ideas on this matter, and any other examples of RPGs that have successfully made magic rarer, dangerous, and/or mysterious.

Ben


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## fuindordm (Jan 3, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> Fuin (Ben),
> 
> you and I are developing a number of project themes in parallel (though I doubt in the same forms/formats/specific approaches). Specifically these:
> 
> ...




Me too. I just looked and your 'Developmental Proceedings', and found it interesting if vague. Your project certainly sounds more ambitious than mine!

BTW, 'fuindordm' is an age-old handle from an early attempt at PBEM. The campaign was 'Fuindor--the shadowed lands', and I was having fun at the time constructing place names from Tolkien's elvish roots.  So please, everyone, just call me Ben.

Cheers,
Ben


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## Wik (Jan 3, 2009)

Ben,

Regarding your question on magic.  One approach I've always loved is that of Dark Sun, which makes magic a dangerous force in the world but not inherently dangerous to PCs.  Plus, it's D&D style magic - which usually encourages frequent magic use!  

Basically, in Dark Sun, everytime you cast a spell, you drain some of the surrounding plant life.  Since the world is a massive desert, made that way by centuries of too-frequent magic use, the populace naturally has a dim view on arcane magic.  So, if you cast a spell (even if you're a preserver, who does his best to save the environment;  people don't often uderstand the difference), you better hope people don't see you - that's an easy way to get lynched.  

So, even though you can cast spells just as often as you can in mainstream D&D, there's a social element that encourages you to be a bit more selective in your casting.  Coupled with the fact that magical spell components are illegal (and sold only in the secretive Elven markets), there's definitely a limitation on spell use in the campaign world.

Personally, I'm heading in a similar direction - how to make magic mysterious and rare without making it insidious.  I'm simply saying that no one really knows where it came from (everyone simply woke up months or years after the "apocalypse" with these powers, and are unsure where they came from), and as for "rarity" - while every PC has a neat power, most common folk do not.  Common folk do have powers, but they are often so mild that they are functionally useless (one guy might be very mildly magnetic, while a second is now a very lucid dreamer).  The common theme being that the only people who wake up from the years-long "Sleepwalking" are those who had psychic powers - the rest either die fairly quickly, or become "Nightmare Runners".  

the powers themselves are not good or evil, and there's no negative effect for using your powers.  in fact, you can use them an unlimited number of times per day, though some have the equivalents of hit point or action point activation costs.   Each power is tied to one of four psychic powers (corresponding with the four card suits - I'm using cards to determine initiative order, and if your suit comes up, you get a bonus on your spellcasting rolls that round).   As your skill improves, you can use your power to do bigger and better things.

For example, you might get the power to walk through walls.  At start, you have to concentrate to use this power, taking your entire round to move through relatively thin walls.  As your power improves, you can use it to move through walls as an action, and later on, you can even do so as part of your regular movement, or use it to drop through the floor to an open ground below.

One of my main design goals (I have it written down in red ink on my hand-written notes sheet) is to make each magical power something that must be actively invoked, and each power must be usable both inside and outside of combat.  So, no permanent buffs (i.e. +10% to skill X) that characters write down on their character sheets and promptly forget, and no simple blast attacks (i.e. D&D's Magic Missile) that essentially cannot be used outside of a fight.  Conversely, powers like Clairvoyance will probably exist, but I need to find a way to make them usable _inside_ of combat - maybe a short-range scrying effect that can reveal the movements of hidden enemies.  

Hope that gives you an idea where I'm heading.


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 3, 2009)

Now that the new year has started and things can start, it seems like a good time to mention what I am working on at the moment. Mechanics seem to be going in a more narravist direction while placing a focus on group efforts toward resolving a conflict instead of individuals succeeding at a task. Character progression will hopefully be something that everyone finds refreshing since I am attempting something that isn't exactly level based nor is it pure point buy either. 

Let's see if I can break it down in a way similar to Jack and fuindordm

I. Setting and Themes
A. Plato's Allegory of the Cave, and what its literal interpretation would mean to a setting.
    B. Post war paranoia 
    C. Rediscovering wonder
    D. Interwoven character stories
II. The Makings of a Hero
    A. Attributes and Focus groups
    B. Backgrounds
    C. Character Quirks
    D. Plot Points
    E. Equipment
III. Magic
    A. Alteration
B. Destruction
C. Creation
D. The Unknown
IV. Playing the Game
    A. Group storytelling
    B. Conflict resolution
    C. Degrees of success
    D. Personal plot advancement
    E. Group plot advancement
V. Challenges
    A. Adversaries and Rivals
    B. Remnants from the war
    C. Bestiary
D. Environmental hazards
    E. Guilds, Unions, and Conspiracies



fuindordm said:


> Jack is hinting at a different approach: the rules of magic can change over the course of play, preventing the players from ever knowing its rules fully. (I may, of course, be completely missing the mark--but that's to be expected.)




This is a theme I am trying to touch on with the my setting as well, but am still trying to get my head around possible mechanics for it. Setting wise the rules for magic were very clear until the past decade or so, but now many things are in a state of flux after the equivalent of a magical Hiroshima.


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## Jack7 (Jan 3, 2009)

> Jack is hinting at a different approach: the rules of magic can change over the course of play, preventing the players from ever knowing its rules fully. (I may, of course, be completely missing the mark--but that's to be expected.)





You're not misinterpreting at all.
I'm saving the mechanical aspects for the work itself, and I wouldn't have described it exactly in that way, but what you said makes a great deal of sense.

Arcane magic in my project will have side-effects, and will, to a certain extent, be ungovernable, both as to effects, and as to how it is generated. It will also produce "pollution," for lack of a better term. Pollution that may or may not be dangerous, and that may or may not be easy to "clean-up."

As for _Divine magic_, God controls how it works, not his clerics (being his representatives). That is to say God doesn't just say, _"here, take this power and do with it as you will."_ He acts as a regulator on divine magic (miracles). (I suspect divine magic would really be not magic at all, as it is normally construed, but would in actuality be miracles, meaning clerics and hermits and monks and paladins and just ordinary devout people - in my setting ordinary people can "create miracles" as well as clerics, but in different ways - would be not just conduits, or catalytic agents, or vessels of divine power, but would be intimately connected to the way in which the miracle functioned. He would not create the miracle, God would, but rather he would shape the expression of it, and perhaps act as a sort of focus for all of the things the miracle does that men cannot anticipate, but that God would use for his own ends.) And miracles can have funny, unforeseen, wide-ranging, and even completely unexpected and unintended consequences, as well as methods of working. That's my basic approach to magic, arcane and divine.

I like many things Ben is doing, and many things RCX mentioned.
Like these:

_C. Rediscovering wonder
D. Interwoven character stories
II. The Makings of a Hero
A. Attributes and Focus groups
B. Backgrounds
C. Character Quirks
D. Plot Points
E. Equipment
III. Magic
A. Alteration
B. Destruction
C. Creation
D. The Unknown
C. Degrees of success
D. Personal plot advancement
E. Group plot advancement
V. Challenges
A. Adversaries and Rivals_

By the way, for when I don't get back around to you guys or your comments for awhile, these are the reasons. *Why Not?*

Good luck and Godspeed everybody.
And Happy New Year.


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## feuer_faust (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm still mulling over the possibilities. In all likeliness the thing may end up being committed to word processor on February 27th...


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## Nellisir (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll tentatively throw my hat into the ring.  I go back to school Jan 19th, so free time may evaporate after that point...or it may not.  I don't have a setting or anything yet, but at least now I'll be subscribed to this thread.


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## Halivar (Jan 6, 2009)

Here's my tentative Table of Contents. Peruse, and salivate! (or groan, as the case may be)

[sblock]          

Introduction to Magus
The dice-pool mechanic
 
The Game World
The Landsreich of Aquillon
Politics of the Landsreich
The Imperial Seat
The Council of Great Houses
The Holy Church of the Light
 
Magic in the Landsreich
Economy of the Landsreich
 
 
Making a Character
Skirmish Stats
Build
Agility
Cunning
Charisma
Skirmish Role
Swordmaster
Jaegermaster
Rogue
 
 
Fiefdom Stats
Holdings
Production
Vassalage
Military
Office
Great Lord
Bishop
Guildmaster
General
 
 
Mana Pools
Inferno
Tempest
Adamant
Vitality
 
Leadership Traits
 
Skirmish Rules
Playing with Miniatures
Playing without Miniatures
 
Grand Army Combat
Playing with Miniatures
Playing without Miniatures
 
Managing a Fiefdom
Raising levies
Acquiring New Vassals
 
Magic
Managing Mana Pools
Spell List
 
Running the game
Facilitating Cooperative Play
Facilitating Competitive Play
 
Enemies & Allies
Skirmish and Dungeon Enemies
Example NPC Fiefdoms
Notable World NPC's
 
Example Campaign: Cleansing of the Vale
 [/sblock]


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## Jack7 (Jan 10, 2009)

I had a paper to finish but that's over now.

So I've started in on the Modular Design system I'm going to employ with this game.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jan 10, 2009)

Here is me formally bowing out.
I haven't come up with anything at all.

My apologies


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## feuer_faust (Jan 10, 2009)

Lord Xtheth said:


> Here is me formally bowing out.
> I haven't come up with anything at all.
> 
> My apologies




Still a month and a half to cook something up.


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## fuindordm (Jan 10, 2009)

Halivar said:


> Here's my tentative Table of Contents. Peruse, and salivate! (or groan, as the case may be)





Looks really intriguing, Halivar! How about a title and summary paragraph for me to add to the roster?

I like the idea of bringing in dominions at the very start of the campaign, rather than near the end as D&D does it.

Ben


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## Wik (Jan 11, 2009)

Lord Xtheth said:


> Here is me formally bowing out.
> I haven't come up with anything at all.
> 
> My apologies




Ah, don't be intimidated!  We're only 25% of the way through things.. I mean, I only have about ten pages of actual work finished!  

If you don't have any big ideas, simply start with "If I were re-making D&D, this is what I'd do...".  And keep adding on ideas that you get.  Pretty soon, you'll have a game figured out.  As for mechanics, just take ideas from a few different sources, try to blend them so that it all makes sense, and go from there.  

Of course, if you don't feel confident about it, then maybe it's better to bow out now.  Still, though, it sucks to see you go.  I'm sure you can put together something good.


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## EP (Jan 12, 2009)

Just how much leniency will there be in the scoring for these?  I'm on page 26 and there's still the actual magic itself to cover, but I have a lot of material that could be expanded but will stretch my copy beyond 50 pages.

For example, my submission uses biomechanical suits to harness the surrounding radiation and process it to creating spells.  The suits are mentioned and established, but I may not have enough room to get into the schematics of the suit and provide some sample suits.  Is it enough just to mention the suits or will it cost me?

It's basically the typical submission problem: too many words, not enough space.


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## Jack7 (Jan 12, 2009)

> Just how much leniency will there be in the scoring for these? I'm on page 26 and there's still the actual magic itself to cover, but I have a lot of material that could be expanded but will stretch my copy beyond 50 pages.
> 
> For example, my submission uses biomechanical suits to harness the surrounding radiation and process it to creating spells. The suits are mentioned and established, but I may not have enough room to get into the schematics of the suit and provide some sample suits. Is it enough just to mention the suits or will it cost me?
> 
> It's basically the typical submission problem: too many words, not enough space.





It's not my contest EP, so I'm not establishing any rules of engagement. But I can give you a piece of advice regarding writing. Recently I wrote a paper for the Naval Postgraduate School detailing an idea about intelligence networks. I had only five pages, single spaced, 12 point type to encapsulate my ideas.

The paper was based upon a much longer and more formal theory paper on the same subject matter (but with a different emphasis, the emphasis of this paper was on giving suggestions to the next administration on Homeland Security matters through the CHDS, the emphasis of the original paper was on the general development of small-scale, functional private intelligence networks) but this paper required wholesale editing of my original ideas.

The point being that I could not submit my original paper, I had to change the emphasis, and had very limited space for presentation. Therefore I severely excised and redacted my theory paper, extracted the relevant and necessary parts, collated the information needed, and therefore arranged a paper which fit the requirements of the assignment. My original theory paper remains available for public publication in another format, and with a different emphasis, when I wish to do so (it is in private circulation now).

My advice, as a writer, is to meet the necessary parameters and rules of the contest, but write what you want. Develop the body of your work as you wish and then pare and edit as necessary to meet actual guidelines and restrictions, if you want to enter the contest as it is described. You will always have your more well developed opus for publication elsewhere with another party at another time.

Or you could do as I am doing. I will not be competing in the contest directly. That is my work will be available for voluntary review but I will not compete because I intend to exceed restrictions and more importantly because I intend to seek publication of my work later on, and many of the ideas I present will be proprietary and I wish to secure them.

So if you're using the contest as stimulus to develop a significant and involved work I'd suggest it doesn't much matter, but you can't expect to exceed guidelines and win the contest. You will be disqualified for exceeding guidelines.

If however you do want to compete and win the contest then the best thing is to develop the work you really want to write, then edit that down to produce a sub-work or smaller version of your real project that will meet guidelines.  You'll always have your larger and more involved work to do with as you wish at another time.


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## Halivar (Jan 12, 2009)

I know for a fact that there are ideas I will not be able to fit in: for instance, turning Vitality mana pools into Undeath pools for Necromancy. It simply won't fit. My plan is to submit without (except for monsters and NPC's that have Undeath pools), and publish an expanded, larger version of the game later that opens these options up to players.


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## EP (Jan 12, 2009)

I guess what I'm asking for is if we risk losing "points" because of insufficient material.  If we're detailing new material for a new system and don't cover every single base within those 50 pages, are we being marked for the basic concept or being held to par with how perfect and detailed the material is?


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 12, 2009)

I am assuming that as long as the game you are presenting is playable etc. it is complete. It sounds like the basic suit is all that is truly needed, so that should be the only thing you need to include. Even then only the basics are really necessary (suit allows the "magic"). I know my submission will mention things like lost aspects of magic, but will not have it expanded unless I try to do some sort of full on publication, which to be honest is very tempting.


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## Halivar (Jan 12, 2009)

RandomCitizenX said:


> I know my submission will mention things like lost aspects of magic, but will not have it expanded unless I try to do some sort of full on publication, which to be honest is very tempting.



Assuming you get anywhere close to the 50-page max, it would be foolish not to at least try for full-on publication.


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 12, 2009)

Only thing which makes me hesitant is I just started teaching high school, and have to go to night classes to get my certification.


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## fuindordm (Jan 12, 2009)

Jack7: Good advice on writing! But it would be a shame if you didn't submit _something_ for people to enjoy. 

RCX: I hope you find time to finish. One of the main criteria was playability, so there should certainly be a selection of 'spells'. After all, the theme was Magic.

Everyone else: So far about a dozen people have publicly declared their intention to participate, but not all of these have posted a title and summary. I intend to start a new thread kicking off with the list of declared participants at the beginning of next week. Get your idea out there!

I've written about 15 pages so far. The theme of the game is supposed to be magic, so I'm trying to make the combat system as simple as possible. The weapons are barely differentiated, damage is abstract, and so on...

On the other hand, I don't expect every character to be a magician. So right now I'm wrestling with the system for mundane conflict resolution (skills, combat...) and trying to find ways for non-magical characters to have interesting decisions and benefit from some tactical depth.

But anyway... I have four types of 'magic', so I expect I'll need at least 12 pages of 'spells' for this game to be playable.

Ben


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 12, 2009)

fuindordm said:


> RCX: I hope you find time to finish. One of the main criteria was playability, so there should certainly be a selection of 'spells'. After all, the theme was Magic.




My comment about completeness was directed at how detailed EP needed to go into the suit specs. I think that as long as the basics are presented in this treatment he should be ok. If he wants to go all out and make this a longer project after the contest then he should by all means include suit variants.

As far as selection of "spells" go, I think it really depends on how you are trying to develop magic. I am trying to go with a somewhat dynamic version of magic, so I won't have spells but will have some effect guidelines. The actual rules of magic in the world have changed very recently from the characters' perspectives so some things which they were able to do before are no longer possible, and some things which were not possible have now been unlocked. It all goes into rediscovering wonder in a world that had quantified "everything."


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## Wik (Jan 13, 2009)

fuindordm said:


> I've written about 15 pages so far. The theme of the game is supposed to be magic, so I'm trying to make the combat system as simple as possible. The weapons are barely differentiated, damage is abstract, and so on...




15 pages?  Nice.  I'm only at 8... plus a huge set of notes.  Luckily, I've got the hard part done - the rest is the "fun stuff", making "Feats" and whatnot.  But yeah, I'm going on the same route as you - gear is pretty simple, and weapons are divided into a few simple categories.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jan 13, 2009)

Wik said:


> Ah, don't be intimidated! We're only 25% of the way through things.. I mean, I only have about ten pages of actual work finished!
> 
> If you don't have any big ideas, simply start with "If I were re-making D&D, this is what I'd do...". And keep adding on ideas that you get. Pretty soon, you'll have a game figured out. As for mechanics, just take ideas from a few different sources, try to blend them so that it all makes sense, and go from there.
> 
> Of course, if you don't feel confident about it, then maybe it's better to bow out now. Still, though, it sucks to see you go. I'm sure you can put together something good.



 Thanks for the encouragement. The best I can say is "I'll see what I can do"


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## Jack7 (Jan 13, 2009)

> Jack7: Good advice on writing! But it would be a shame if you didn't submit something for people to enjoy.




I'll create a booklet, maybe a fully developed .PDF with illustrations (I hate not including artwork, though it will definitely include charts and graphs, etc), which I will make available to anybody who wants to review it with the proviso they do not disseminate or seek to publish, though they're welcome to take it and play it with their own group if they so please.




> RCX: I hope you find time to finish. One of the main criteria was playability, so there should certainly be a selection of 'spells'. After all, the theme was Magic.






> As far as selection of "spells" go, I think it really depends on how you are trying to develop magic. I am trying to go with a somewhat dynamic version of magic, so I won't have spells but will have some effect guidelines. The actual rules of magic in the world have changed very recently from the characters' perspectives so some things which they were able to do before are no longer possible, and some things which were not possible have now been unlocked. It all goes into rediscovering wonder in a world that had quantified "everything."




I've thought about this for a long time and I've decided to skip spells as well. So I'm with RCX on this one. Rather I'm gonna have magic (arcane magic) and miracles (divine magic) and people can create rituals, spells, capabilities out of that in any way they want, given a few simple guidelines and limitations I set out. I gonna try and avoid, as much as possible, telling them how to use or employ their magic, rather I'm gonna tell them what it can or can't do, and then let them do with it whatever they want. That's the way I'm also gonna approach magic.

And I'm gonna have divine magic controlled by God, rather than the cleric. The cleric will be the instrument of the miracle and inform how it manifests itself, but cannot "control" it. On the other hand (with both forms of magic) I'm working on a system that will hopefully allow most every individual character (and player) to greatly influence the way magic works based upon their own character and nature. That is to say, if I can pull it off, and I've got a few ideas, Wizards will be Wizards based upon how they approach magic, and Mages will be Mages based upon how they approach magic, but no two Mages, or no two Wizards will be alike in how they "express magic." The same for clerics, monks and hermits. If it works that is.

I'm shooting for magic not to be a technical science (as in recent games) but a psychological art (and a dangerous, sometimes almost spurious one) arising from what people can imagine and what their natures are like. As a matter of fact I'm hoping to devise a system in which the more powerfully you express your magic the more dangerous and uncontrollable it becomes.

I'm also trying to devise some peculiar magical items, artifacts, and relics that will likewise be more "open-ended" when it comes to how one can employ them and what they can do magically. I've thought about including static, experimental forms of magic too, like alchemy, but I think that things like Alchemy will be proto-science instead and will be expressed through item creation and technological achievements (which Wizards will be good at).




> On the other hand, I don't expect every character to be a magician. So right now I'm wrestling with the system for mundane conflict resolution (skills, combat...) and trying to find ways for non-magical characters to have interesting decisions and benefit from some tactical depth.




One thing I've thought about (and have pursued) is integrating combat and magic so that both function in a conflict in exactly the same way. A magician can duel another magician, or fight against a whole party in a tactical skirmish, a fighter can fight another fighter, and a fighter can fight a magician, and it will all (dependent upon the particular details) function in just about the same way. And hopefully fluidly and rapidly. Because one roll will determine whether you strike in combat, where on the body, and exactly how much damage you do to both the target and their armor, all at the same time. 

And, indeed I have no idea how I'm gonna do this just yet, but I'm gonna have a system that somehow integrates and overlaps magic and heroism, and which encourages heroism (though I more or less know how to do this) in play.




> The best I can say is "I'll see what I can do"




Try LX, and see what ya get. At worst you can always have the skeleton of a work you can develop later.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jan 13, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> Try LX, and see what ya get. At worst you can always have the skeleton of a work you can develop later.



Um... what's LX?

Edit: My Brain Fart ended while I wrote that question... you were reffering to me.

durr


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## Jack7 (Jan 13, 2009)

> Edit: My Brain Fart...




happens to everybody.


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## fuindordm (Jan 13, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> I've thought about this for a long time and I've decided to skip spells as well. So I'm with RCX on this one. Rather I'm gonna have magic (arcane magic) and miracles (divine magic) and people can create rituals, spells, capabilities out of that in any way they want, given a few simple guidelines and limitations I set out. I gonna try and avoid, as much as possible, telling them how to use or employ their magic, rather I'm gonna tell them what it can or can't do, and then let them do with it whatever they want. That's the way I'm also gonna approach magic.




A really open-ended system would be great, but I don't think I'm up to it for this game.   I fully intend for players to make up their own effects, but it will be more like D&D spell research than Ars Magica or Mage: the Ascension. 

The spell list can also provide a lot of flavor text for the setting, and serve as a way of demonstrating what each kind of magic can and can't do.

Ben


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## Jack7 (Jan 13, 2009)

> A really open-ended system would be great, but I don't think I'm up to it for this game.  I fully intend for players to make up their own effects, but it will be more like D&D spell research than Ars Magica or Mage: the Ascension.
> 
> The spell list can also provide a lot of flavor text for the setting, and serve as a way of demonstrating what each kind of magic can and can't do.





In the case you misunderstood me Ben I'm just saying that's the way I'm gonna do it, not the way everybody should. I didn't know _Ars Magica_ did that though. I'm really gonna have to track that down. Lots of people have suggested I get it.


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## EP (Jan 13, 2009)

fuindordm said:


> A really open-ended system would be great, but I don't think I'm up to it for this game.   I fully intend for players to make up their own effects, but it will be more like D&D spell research than Ars Magica or Mage: the Ascension.




Same, but I think mine is starting to look more and more like Mage.  Never played it, but have heard that it basically allows you to come up with whatever effect you like so long as you have the right power level for it, or something.

So far, I have twelve spell "categories," each of which is more of an effect.  Flame spells, for example, are anything that uses fire and can include burning wood to summoning a serpent made of fire and ash.  Depending on the range and overall damage of the spell, you have to spend points to make it work.  The more you go, the fewer points you have, blah, blah.

Now that I think of it, I can just cut back on the number of spells and use that space for suits.  Eureka!


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 13, 2009)

EP said:


> Same, but I think mine is starting to look more and more like Mage.  Never played it, but have heard that it basically allows you to come up with whatever effect you like so long as you have the right power level for it, or something.
> 
> So far, I have twelve spell "categories," each of which is more of an effect.  Flame spells, for example, are anything that uses fire and can include burning wood to summoning a serpent made of fire and ash.  Depending on the range and overall damage of the spell, you have to spend points to make it work.  The more you go, the fewer points you have, blah, blah.
> 
> Now that I think of it, I can just cut back on the number of spells and use that space for suits.  Eureka!




I think that when dynamic magic is around it is hard to avoid Mage. To me it is the 300lbs gorilla of dynamic magic design. The system I am working on is broken up into three arts and three material mediums, with each one being progressively harder. If you try to use the 1st art on the 1st medium you won't have much difficult getting an effect that falls under that art. If you try to use the 3rd art on the 3rd medium, then you either need to be lucky or powerful to get the effect just the way you want. Hopefully this is enough to set my work away from mage. I think your categories sound promising, especially when combined with the bits of setting I have seen posted here and there.



Just wondering for other entries, how heroic/powerful are you expecting PCs to be out of the gate? I know for my game the PCs are already going to have a leg up against the average person in the setting due to "fate" or what have you.


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## EP (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomCitizenX said:


> Just wondering for other entries, how heroic/powerful are you expecting PCs to be out of the gate? I know for my game the PCs are already going to have a leg up against the average person in the setting due to "fate" or what have you.




Safe to say they'll be more powerful.  Much more.  But that's also because I'm thinking epic sci-fi for combat in this one.  One guy against fifty kind of stuff.  Then it's just a matter of providing nasty bad guys to make it a challenge one-on-one.


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## Jack7 (Jan 13, 2009)

I looked into Ars Magica and got a copy. It's not what I'm doing with how magic works but it is quite fascinating. Now I guess I'm going to have to look into Mage and see how that works.



> Just wondering for other entries, how heroic/powerful are you expecting PCs to be out of the gate? I know for my game the PCs are already going to have a leg up against the average person in the setting due to "fate" or what have you.




I guess that depends upon how one defines powerful. A lot of people will be more powerful politically or in authority, or in other respects to power, especially when a character is just starting out. That is the characters can start from any social or political or background position in my setting. So in that respect they will start form wherever they start. (Though maybe I should devise a way in which people can develop backgrounds based on social potion that may or may not give them other types of advantages. Or disadvantages for that matter.) And how much influence they have over others will also be another matter altogether.

As for how the average character stands in relation to the average person (at the beginning of their professional career) I reckon I should address that in some way as to how they stand in relation to magic. Maybe though I should make magic influence access to social, political, and economic status rather than the other way around.

One thing I have decided for certain, magicians will not be "special" in regards to other types of characters, fighters, agents, etc. like in Ars Magica. Though I like the idea of them being secretive and covert. At least the human ones. Very much so.

I've also decided that I'm going to make the Wizard a proto-scientist and natural scientist, an illusionist, cartographer, and an inventor and engineer. And I'm going to make the Mage an alchemist and chemist, an astrologer, a sort of psychic and a doctor. They will both be sages and experts, of a kind. Those won't be limits to those classes, just major capabilities. Wizards and Mages will be human character "classes."

Humanoid characters will have "classes" that correspond to the more traditional D&D Wizard. 

(I always thought humans and humanoids should have very different ways of looking at and approaching the world, and since they would also have different innate abilities and skills, would naturally develop very different professions [or classes]. Just as Medieval Europe developed the idea of the Paladin and Templar and Knight Errant and the Japanese the Samurai and Ronin, and that's a wide range of difference based upon nothing more than variances of geography and within dissimilar human culture, you would naturally expect Humans and Elves to also develop radically different approaches to culture, society, duty, obligation, and profession. The idea that radically different races [species really] and cultures would develop the exact same expressions of adventuring profession, or outlook, always seemed a real weakness of the D&D model to me, _*as it developed later anyways*_, with wholesale _"be anything and everything you like no matter your background."_ I suspect they'd also have very, very, very different ways of looking at both "magic" and "divine magic," and religion. For instance a human cleric would be nothing like an dwarven one anymore than a Christian cleric would be the same as a Muslim one. And a human Wizard would likely be very little like an elven Wizard. Why would they be similar? Though over time they might become slightly more compatible and transform over time as each begins to influence the other more directly. Eventually creating a sort of hybrid profession, maybe even a hybrid culture if they interacted often enough. More likely though they would create a sort of racial and cultural sympathy, where one side or the other comes to admire certain aspects of the other and how they operate. An elf might convert and desire to become a Paladin, though he would be next to unique, or a human might want to become "elf-like" and strive to become an elven-type Wizard, rather than a human type Wizard. But that would be mainly the function of setting, how cultures and magic and religion and professions and other things "transform" over time.)

Otherwise, I have decided that Sorcerers and Warlocks will be enemies of the Wizard and Magi.

And clerics and paladins and others will also have their own natural enemies or nemeses.

So the character "classes" or professions will have built in character/NPC game opposition.


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## fuindordm (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm definitely not aiming for superheroes!  I expect characters to be skilled normals, and about half the party to have access to some kind of magic. Even dedicated magicians, however, won't start out with a lot of power. They need to have some cool abilities to look forward to as they develop...

All forms of magic are considered spiritual or divine in my setting. The True Speech is a faint echo of divine influence over the world, Alchemists pursue a spiritual quest as they study the nature of matter, Astrologers devote themselves to learning the divine will expressed in stars and planets, and Theurgists speak directly with spirits. Since all these paths result in personal power, there is an element of society that considers them prideful or impious. But on the other hand, practitioners argue that this is just how the world works.


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## helium3 (Jan 13, 2009)

Uhhh. Please add me to the list of people who intend to submit something?


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## jdrakeh (Jan 13, 2009)

helium3 said:


> Uhhh. Please add me to the list of people who intend to submit something?




I'm not the one keeping the list, but come time for judging, I'll certainly look for your submission


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## Jack7 (Jan 14, 2009)

> All forms of magic are considered spiritual or divine in my setting. The True Speech is a faint echo of divine influence over the world, Alchemists pursue a spiritual quest as they study the nature of matter, Astrologers devote themselves to learning the divine will expressed in stars and planets, and Theurgists speak directly with spirits. Since all these paths result in personal power, there is an element of society that considers them prideful or impious. But on the other hand, practitioners argue that this is just how the world works.




All of those sound really interesting. I also like the idea that people with extraordinary capabilities (assuming others knew about their capabilities) are looked upon in a in a variety of ways. Some could be envious, others wishing to emulate them, some would be suspicious, some seek to use or manipulate them, others admiring, some even fearful or seeking to do them outright harm.
I just don't see guys like Wizards, Thieves, professional Fighting men, Adventuring types, or even Clerics and Paladins being either universally admired, or universally accepted - in any world. They might not be reflexively hated but they would at least be suspect and considered dangerous by many people. All would certainly have their detractors.

That's a much better model I think than, "hey, let's all hang out at the local Wizard tavern where the half-orc prostitutes dance with the bards and the monks and the mayor gets hammered every midnight."


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## helium3 (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't actually know where I'm going with this yet, but I had a brainstorm of an idea on the way to an appointment. That brainstorm led me to slapping out a few pages on "the nature of magic." I put it behind the spoiler cause it's kinda long and I didn't want to force people to scroll through it.

[sblock=The Nature of Magic]What IS magic, you ask? That's a tough question. A VERY tough question and one you'll never really find a complete answer for no matter how much or how long you devote yourself to its study. I can give you a summary answer, but even that's going to be a bit long winded. But, I promise that if you stick with me and keep your trap shut I'll get to the end and you'll understand. Well, understand may be a bit strong of a word. You'll think you understand, but you won't. I promise.

Let's see. Where should I begin? Ah. Yes.

Magic owes its existence to both the fundamental structure of the cosmos and the blind stupidity of the folk that live within it. See, reality is like a cake with a really, really large number of layers. Maybe even an infinite number of layers. We don't really know the answer to that question.

Anyhow, each layer of that cake, with the exception of the one we live on, represents the distilled essence of some part of the world that we live in. There's a layer somewhere that is the essence of war, the essence of death, the essence of taxes, forests, agriculture, baking, booze, sex and even my dear Aunt Martha who lives down the street.

I know, I know, it's hard to imagine but you just have to accept it as an incontrovertible fact of nature. Somewhere out there in the cosmos there's an entire layer of reality devoted to apple pie, calico cats, bingo and hectoring my Uncle Rupert about mowing the lawn.

The layer we live on (technically referred to as the prime layer) is more poetically referred to as The Grand Conjunction. Why? Well, in the ancient times before The Mistake, a conjunction was a word used to describe both an alignment of the planets within a small patch of sky and the process by which a word could be generated by chopping off the end bits of two other words and spackling them together with an apostrophe. As it turns out, both metaphors are apt.

WE are the Grand Conjunction. The little patch of cosmological sky where every star in existence resides when viewed by an outside observer. The unpronounceable shibboleth formed when every word spoken between the beginning and end of time is glued together with an uncountable number of apostrophes. We are both the center of creation and completely outside its boundary. The alpha and the omega, everything and nothing, etc. etc. and so on.

I can tell from the look on your faces that you still don't understand. That's fine, as I'm only halfway through. I've done this particular monologue more times than there are days in your life so far and I can say that every time I've given it, the faces on my students have looked just like yours do now. So, let's get back to it.

Long ago, longer than I've been alive and longer than anyone I've ever met has been alive, there was a time when Magic didn't exist. I know. It's difficult to understand but it's true. No wizards. No wasteland. No warlocks. No covens. No fetches. No demons. No zombies. No nothing. Just the usual humdrum savagery of every day life for as far back as the universe goes.

Then came The Mistake. We don't really know why it happened or even how it happened, though we're pretty sure that it was our fault and that it was people like you and me that caused it. Some like to describe The Mistake as if we tore a big hole in the walls between the layers of reality. Others like to talk about it as if we got lost and found ourselves deeper into the wilds of reality than is safe. Me, I try to not think about those sorts of things too much. I find that it makes it more difficult for me to practice the forms of magic I'm innately good at.

That being said, I do have a metaphor I prefer to use when pressed on the matter. There's an ancient philosopher whose name is lost to time who said something along the lines of "When you stare into the Abyss, the Abyss stares into you." I've modified that a bit to something like, "When you show an interest in the Abyss, the Abyss shows an interest in you."

That's what we did. That's how we made The Mistake. Thanks to our endless curiosity and dissatisfaction with a normal life devoid of being torn to pieces by horrific monsters, we poked our collective noses into a dark corner of the Cosmos that we should have left well enough alone. We became truly aware of the nature of the cosmos and thereby generated a wholly new layer devoted entirely to representing that awareness. That layer then fed back into ours, as we are a reflection of reality, causing that awareness to ripple outwards and reinforcing the strength of its own representation. Voila!! Instant magic!!

See. I warned you that you weren't really going to understand. Luckily, you don't NEED to understand to begin your studies with me. That being said, there's something about the nature of magic that I'll need to get through your thick skulls before I'll even think about teaching you how to do something as simple as lighting a candle with your mind or changing the color of an orange. Magic isn’t safe. Magic isn't predictable. Magic is dangerous. You're tampering with the raw forces of creation, the fundamental structure of reality and if you aren't the perfect balance of confidence and caution you'll get torn to pieces or transformed into a cloud of butterflies.

Before I finish and open the floor to questions, here's a cute little description of what magic is really like that I thought up for use when normal types ask me to describe it. You're just a step above them so I think it's appropriate.

Magic is like a demented, booze addled fairy step-godmother. She means well. She wants to do right by you. Then she goes out on an all night bender and comes home tired, still a little drunk, filthy and missing a couple of hours. Then you come toddling in, prattling on and on about wanting to know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and if there's still time what the meaning of life is. In her blind rage she simply can't help it when she turns you into a newt. With magic, the real trick is to get her to turn someone ELSE into the newt.

Are there any other questions?

Good. I didn't think there would be.

Welcome to school. Class is adjourned until tomorrow morning at dawn. Please meet me in the middle of the henge and bring your dowsing rods, your chicken bones and your first year textbook.[/sblock]


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## Jack7 (Jan 14, 2009)

Helium, I like it.

It made me laugh and had some fascinating metaphors.


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## helium3 (Jan 14, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> Helium, I like it.
> 
> It made me laugh and had some fascinating metaphors.




Yeah. The creative process sure is strange, isn't it?

What's funny is that the genesis for the whole thing (whatever it is) was thinking about the different ways that magic is represented in literary works. 

Somehow I stumbled into, "your mother" as a metaphor for magic which immediately transformed into "your deranged fairy step-godmother" as a metaphor for magic.

I've got more stuff rolling around now and I'm kind of intrigued by the idea.


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## Abisashi (Jan 14, 2009)

*Tarot Arcana*

I've been planning since this was announced and writing for several days, so I guess I should announce myself.

Here's the very rough draft of my introductory paragraph:



			
				Tarot Arcana said:
			
		

> In Tarot Arcana, players take on the role of powerful mages, either mortal or immortal, as they accumulate power and pursue their personal agendas. Magic is a fickle source of power; in order to better understand the flow of magic, mages have come up with a way of representing it: tarot cards. The tides of magic shift constantly; mages can influence their internal tides, the Tarot Arcana, but the magical sea which pervades all of reality, the Tarot Mare, is governed by no one.




I've wanted to make a system of magic using tarot cards for years.




			
				RandomCitizenX said:
			
		

> Just wondering for other entries, how heroic/powerful are you expecting PCs to be out of the gate? I know for my game the PCs are already going to have a leg up against the average person in the setting due to "fate" or what have you.




As I plan it right now, starting PCs will be on par with the average person (depending on training), not counting magic. Magic totally outstrips mundane alternatives in those areas in which it can be used, and I am assuming all PCs are mages (at least to some degree).

Working with magic elevates the user above the common man. By the time a mage reaches immortality, even if he has never studied sword fighting, he would be the equal of a master of the sword; if the mage has mastered the sword, he could go through hordes of well-trained guards like a hot knife through butter. That said, a few lucky hits could spell the end of even the greatest mage, so they tend to be careful.

One thing I am doing that seems different from several people is that my magic system will be very restrictive; there are only a few spells (probably 22, many of which are closely held secrets or lost knowledge), though there will be lots of variation depending on which tarot cards are in your spell spread.


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## fuindordm (Jan 14, 2009)

Abisashi said:


> I've been planning since this was announced and writing for several days, so I guess I should announce myself.
> 
> 've wanted to make a system of magic using tarot cards for years.





Ding! You've been added to the list. That makes 13 declared contestants, a most auspicious number.

Only 22 spells, huh? Sounds intriguing.

Ben


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## feuer_faust (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, I've official began work on this thing. Not too many specifics (or even a name), but I like where it's going so far.


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## A Passing Maniac (Jan 14, 2009)

Allow me to ruin your lucky number of contestants by submitting my own... submission... thingy...

My comrade Joseph Wilburforce and I, Matthew Woodward, will hopefully manage to get through the process of actually creating a system so we might present to you *Saga*, a game set in 10th-century Iceland. "But," you undoubtedly exclaim, "10th-century Iceland was primarily inhabited by farmers. What's so fun about farming?"

 To which I would reply, "You obviously haven't played the Harvest Moon games, but that's irrelevant, because this game is not about farmers. This is a game of the fantastic, in which Iceland is inhabited by all the giants and elves and dwarves who retreated from continental Europe with the spread of Christianity. This is a game where the old gods still walk the Earth. This is a game about raiding and pillaging, about swords and runic sorcery, about slaying trolls and dragons, about the risen dead and werewolf outlaws and wooden golems powered by human hearts, and possibly about alliterative poetry. This is the world of the sagas!"

 Then you would probably say, in turn, "Hey that sounds pretty cool." And you would be right. But you might continue, "Yet how is this any different from any other fantasy role-playing game?"

 And then I would angrily reply, "It just is," and if you tried to protest I would turn into a giant wolf and eat you.


Joseph tells me this declaration or announcement or what have you requires more mention of Loki, and he is correct, so I shall rectify my error in excluding him immediately.







I love his villainous mustache, don't you?


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## fuindordm (Jan 15, 2009)

A Passing Maniac said:


> Joseph tells me this declaration or announcement or what have you requires more mention of Loki, and he is correct, so I shall rectify my error in excluding him immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm... wasn't there a tale where Loki kidnaps Sif and ties her to the railroad tracks?

Norse myth has always been a specialty of mine, so I'm really looking forward to this one. In the 1990's I ran a campaign for 4 years that drew heavily on _Hrolf Kraki's Saga_ by Poul Anderson for flavor.

Cheers,
Ben


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## Lord Xtheth (Jan 15, 2009)

I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.


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## RandomCitizenX (Jan 15, 2009)

Lord Xtheth said:


> I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
> I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.




Glad to see that something is coming along for you. I'm sure that the kinks will work themselves out well in time. Still working on a few myself *looks at combat vs conflict resolution and wonders if he should get a hammer*


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## Wik (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, design on _The Awakening_ carries on.  Currently, I'm working on my damage system, but there have been a series of problems encountered during my "work week":

*1)  Skills:*  My original assessment of skill space was way off.  I think I can have two skill write-ups per page... so I had to really knock down the number of skills available to characters.  Even then, I now see I'll have 10 pages of skills!  A related problem is with character creation;  originally, characters would choose two primary skills (+30% bonus), three major skills (+20%), and five minor skills (+10%) - a total of ten skills... or half the skills in my current system!  Since four of those skills are psychic skills (only 1 of which will be useful to a character, depending on which power they receive), that's ten skills out of a possible 17 choices!  

So, I had to narrow a character's skill selection down to a more reasonable 5 (1 primary, 2 major, 3 minor).  

*2)  The Multi-Action System:*  I have a multiple action per round system, reminiscent of the d6 system... which is working fine, I think.  But I keep thinking of corner cases that I need to add to my rules system.  As a result, my "basic rules" is sort of bleeding into the combat rules.  

*3)  Wounds:*  My damage system has been a problem since the start, but I'm beginning to get a feel for it now.  Basically, characters have a number of Health Points (name to be changed later, maybe) - if they reach zero, you're dying or unconscious (depending on the attack that hit you).  However, they replenish at the start of every combat.  

If you suffer a wound (a set amount of damage dictated by your character's Body and Spirit attributes), you get a negative game effect depending on where you're hit (wound locations!), and your health maximum decreases by 3.  If you should ever suffer enough wounds to reduce your health maximum to 0, you're dead.  

In keeping with the post-apoc tone of the game, even if your wounds heal, you still have to suffer a long-term effect for a while... you may have a limp, or foggy vision.  And if you got hit really hard, you'll suffer a permanent long-term effect.  

It doesn't go as far as Warhammer, though - no limb loss.

Problem right now is figuring out how to include Body Armour - should it just be flat Damage Reduction, or should it increase an area's Wound Threshold?  

*4)  Combat:*  It's hitting me now that in a modern game, there are a lot of options.  How do you implement automatic fire?  Burst Fire?  Shotgun blasts?  Grenades?  Suppressing Fire?  And, more importantly, how do you do it without taking up any space?

*5)  Magic:*  I have a psychic powers system, and it's beginning to take shape. But other factors are cutting into my psychic page count, which could be a problem.  

*6) Adrenaline:* Characters in my game get Adrenaline Points, which are used for a variety of purposes.  They can power abilities, heal your character, offer re-rolls, and a bunch of other nifty things.  The more I work on the game, the more I'm using adrenaline points... which makes me wonder how many points I should give PCs each day (I've already determined they should be a daily pool to draw from).  I'm working on 10 adrenaline points right now, but I have a feeling that may be too much, especially because if I have space I'll be including a mechanic that essentially gives extra adrenaline points if a character RPs his character well.  

So, those are my issues right now.  Two weeks in, is anyone else beginning to encounter unforeseen troubles?


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## Wik (Jan 17, 2009)

Lord Xtheth said:


> I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
> I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.




Well, if you have some system problems, there's nothing wrong with borrowing.  I looked at 3.5E (a system I like and generally understan) to figure out if my math looked right.  There's nothing wrong with using a d20+modifier system, or an Xd6 score success system (like Shadowrun).

If you need some system ideas, I have a few I can post here.  They wouldn't be complete, but they'd be a good place to start.


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## Abisashi (Jan 17, 2009)

Wik said:


> there's nothing wrong with borrowing




A little research on other game systems reveals that my system resembles several I have never played; my resolution system, at its core, looks like shadowrun's. In my system you need a 1 or 2 on a d6 for success, because I was originally going to use a variety of dice to represent skill, d4-d20, but I dropped that because I thought it would slow down play too much. I've done lots of stuff to try to speed up the actual mechanical playing.

My multi-action system acts a lot like d6 Star Wars, though I think mine is implemented in a cleaner fashion (I think it will play faster), and I like how I tied it into my wound system.

My mechanics chapter (which includes skills and combat, but not magic) is about 8.5 pages now, and I think it will end up about 10 pages. Skills will probably be about half that. I specify that my skill list isn't meant to be all-inclusive, but I included stuff that I figured would come up a lot (stealth, combat skills, etc.)

One thing I am trying to do is build a system where I can have attacking be a skill like every other without the character feeling like they have to have it; I accomplish this mainly with the power of magic, and because I intend for this to be played with a small number of players (more players tends to make combat encounters more attractive, in my experience).




			
				Wik said:
			
		

> Two weeks in, is anyone else beginning to encounter unforeseen troubles?




Right now I think my rules are pretty non-sensical, because I haven't really chosen one set of terminology and used it consistently throughout.

Another thing I need to nail down is whether I want combat to be tactical (with minis and a grid) or descriptive; I'm leaning toward the second, but the first has some advantages in terms of clarity.

I currently have four things that can add to a skill roll, assuming no additional outside modifiers; Focus, attributes, skill groups, and skills; I'm thinking of merging attributes and skill groups to clean it up, but I should probably decide that soon.


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## Wik (Jan 17, 2009)

Abisashi said:


> One thing I am trying to do is build a system where I can have attacking be a skill like every other without the character feeling like they have to have it; I accomplish this mainly with the power of magic, and because I intend for this to be played with a small number of players (more players tends to make combat encounters more attractive, in my experience).




Y'know, I never really thought of that, but it's true.  The more PCs, the more "fun" combats can get. I guess it's because RP encounters are often dominated by one player in larger groups.  

I wanted a similar approach in my post-apoc game, but I went with a different route.  I made sure that combats were lethal, and that any fight can result in a PC dying or getting wounded - the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Shadowrun approach.  PCs don't leap into a fight without searching for any advantage they can get, first.  At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.  



> Right now I think my rules are pretty non-sensical, because I haven't really chosen one set of terminology and used it consistently throughout.




Guilty of that, as well.  I'm keeping an alternate file open to function as a glossary to combat this, but a lot of my terms need to be edited later on, when I have a firmer idea of exactly what they do ("Adrenaline" being the most likely to get a name change)

If you're using a good word processor, I'd recommend doing what I'm doing, and putting an "XXX" (by itself, in caps, not connected to anything else) by anything you think you'll want to change later.  Then you use "find" later on to pick up on all of these, and fill in the relevant details.  



> Another thing I need to nail down is whether I want combat to be tactical (with minis and a grid) or descriptive; I'm leaning toward the second, but the first has some advantages in terms of clarity.




Yeah, this is something I looked at, too.  I decided to go for the first, if only because my players like using a battle grid.  But I wanted to keep the rules simple enough that it can be played without a grid (like d6 SW).


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## Abisashi (Jan 17, 2009)

wik said:
			
		

> With that in mind, I know that I want my game to follow a few key rules:
> ...
> 2) The Setting's Magic and the Game Rules must intertwine:




I hope you don't mind if I drag stuff from your design blog here. I am curious whether other people's magic systems are similar to/integrated into their general mechanics, or if they are separate and different?

My magic system is going to look totally different from the rest of my mechanics, to help it stand apart (and because using the magic mechanics for every action would be too slow); using magic is not like using a sword at all, and I want the _player_ to feel that.


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## Abisashi (Jan 17, 2009)

Wik said:


> I wanted a similar approach in my post-apoc game, but I went with a different route.  I made sure that combats were lethal, and that any fight can result in a PC dying or getting wounded - the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Shadowrun approach.  PCs don't leap into a fight without searching for any advantage they can get, first.  At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.




I also wanted a pretty lethal system. Although a mage can survive hit that would kill a normal man, damage reduces his dice pools and ability to take multiple actions; it might be hard for the enemy to land the first hit, but once they do things will go downhill quickly.


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## Arkhandus (Jan 17, 2009)

Huh.  I'm late to the game, but I'm going to ponder this for a few days and see if I can't whip up something suitable within the next month.


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## fuindordm (Jan 17, 2009)

Abisashi:

In my RPG, both combat and magic key off of the skill system.  If you swing a sword, you use the sword skill; if you speak an incantation you use the True Speech skill.  In melee you can defend yourself with a weapon, so the attack roll becomes an opposed roll.  I haven't figured out how to incorporate analogous defenses for missile fire and magical attacks.

My damage system is very simple: you can take three wounds, and on the fourth wound you're dead.  Melee combat can have several opposed combat rounds before a wound actually occurs. This gives the characters a window to break off combat before physical injury when they realize they're outmatched.

So right now, my mind is gnawing at a simple problem: shields. I'm thinking that using a shield grants you a roll to avoid the wound when it finally occurs. That's certainly a useful benefit, but I foresee two problems: the more skilled combatant in a melee probably ends up not using their shield at all, and the mechanism extends an already long combat. 

Ideas are welcome!

Ben


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## Wik (Jan 17, 2009)

Hm.  I like where this discussion is heading!  



> I hope you don't mind if I drag stuff from your design blog here. I am curious whether other people's magic systems are similar to/integrated into their general mechanics, or if they are separate and different?
> 
> My magic system is going to look totally different from the rest of my mechanics, to help it stand apart (and because using the magic mechanics for every action would be too slow); using magic is not like using a sword at all, and I want the player to feel that.




First off, of course I don't mind people bringing up my design thoughts.  That's why I put 'em there!

My magic system is, as I said, integrated - they use the same basic mechanic, though there are differences.  For example, my skill system is fairly open, and skills improve as you use them.  With my magic system, you get a random power, and it is keyed off one of four magical "skills".  As you improve that skill, you unlock powers based on your psychic power... as opposed to the skill itself.  

So yeah, there are differences, but I think the system is overall "integrated".  

(What I didn't want was something like 2e D&D, where the magic system was completely different than everything else, or even Shadowrun, where the magic system used the same core mechanic, but had a huge number of "corner cases").

And, for the record, I'd like to say that everything I say in my blog pretty much pertains to me only;  if you're breaking one of my "rules", that's totally cool, because the rules only apply to myself.  There are plenty of awesome games that break a so-called rule I've put forward.  



> Huh. I'm late to the game, but I'm going to ponder this for a few days and see if I can't whip up something suitable within the next month.




Can't wait to see what you've got, Ark! 




> So right now, my mind is gnawing at a simple problem: shields. I'm thinking that using a shield grants you a roll to avoid the wound when it finally occurs. That's certainly a useful benefit, but I foresee two problems: the more skilled combatant in a melee probably ends up not using their shield at all, and the mechanism extends an already long combat.
> 
> Ideas are welcome!




Hm.  Why not allow shields to grant you a re-roll?  So, if you're carrying a shield and you get hit, you can get a re-roll once per round?  Or, if you're using a multi-die mechanic, Shields can simply grant you extra dice.  

An easy way to do it would be to have shields simply grant you one extra wound point.  If you get hit the first time, your shield breaks.  

And another easy one would be to have shields add a flat bonus to your roll to resist wounding.


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## feuer_faust (Jan 17, 2009)

So, here's a little bit of what I'm thinking. I was a little skittish about posting first because "oh no, someone might take my super-secret idea!" But, I doubt I'm the first to think it up after thirty years of RPGs, so...

Magic in my setting is simply the force of creation. It is shaped not only by the intentions of those who use it, but by how it is used. This is what leads to "breeds" of magic: destructive and evil black magic, healing yet vengeful divine magic, etc etc. It's all the same thing, but certain "reserves" of it have been altered simply by people using it (sort of a magical observer affect).


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## Wik (Jan 17, 2009)

feuer_faust said:


> So, here's a little bit of what I'm thinking. I was a little skittish about posting first because "oh no, someone might take my super-secret idea!" But, I doubt I'm the first to think it up after thirty years of RPGs, so...
> 
> Magic in my setting is simply the force of creation. It is shaped not only by the intentions of those who use it, but by how it is used. This is what leads to "breeds" of magic: destructive and evil black magic, healing yet vengeful divine magic, etc etc. It's all the same thing, but certain "reserves" of it have been altered simply by people using it (sort of a magical observer affect).




Sounds peachy to me.  I'd be curious to see how it turns out in play!


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## helium3 (Jan 19, 2009)

Is anyone aware of any systems besides Amber that don't rely on determining the outcome of an action randomly with dice?


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## Khuxan (Jan 19, 2009)

helium3 said:


> Is anyone aware of any systems besides Amber that don't rely on determining the outcome of an action randomly with dice?




Mortal Coil. People secretly bid tokens from limited pools. Whoever bids the most wins.


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## Wik (Jan 19, 2009)

helium3 said:


> Is anyone aware of any systems besides Amber that don't rely on determining the outcome of an action randomly with dice?




There's one by Tracy Hickman that came in a paperback format, based off one of their post-dragonlance fantasy stories.  It used a diceless system, but the system described was really just a way to use a d10 without actually having a d10 present, so I don't know if it counts.

There's a western RPG I have kicking around that uses poker dice to determine the effects of your actions.  And there just HAS to be one that uses a deck of playing cards (I'd be surprised if there isn't already).  Plus, doesn't Ars Magica have a diceless system, using only cards?

Plus, Abisashi is using a system based on Tarot Cards, I think.

So, yeah, there's a precedent for diceless systems, but there's plenty of unexplored territory.  I know I have a few kicking around in my head for future competitions...


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## EP (Jan 19, 2009)

Wik said:


> Well, if you have some system problems, there's nothing wrong with borrowing.




Exactly.  Mine borrows heavily from 3.5 and 4e but with everything switched to opposing rolls.  I've always been a fan of actively defending yourself and opposed rolls allow you to always have the possibility of fending off any attack, no matter how slim the chances.  It also allows all players to remain actively rolling dice throughout the game.

In this regard, this is where I'm experiencing unexpected issues.  There are events and actions in any game that are not opposed by an active character, and so I have to account for these enough in advance to create rules for GM opposed rolls.  If you try to bash a door down, the door must resist, but what if you're trying to remember something?  Do you roll against a set number or roll against your own memory?  And then there's all the stuff you take for granted and never think to account for until it suddenly pops in your head at the last minute.  Since it's the first time I've tried to design a system, it's actually an interesting and appreciative experiment.


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## Halivar (Jan 19, 2009)

Wik said:


> There's a western RPG I have kicking around that uses poker dice to determine the effects of your actions.  And there just HAS to be one that uses a deck of playing cards (I'd be surprised if there isn't already).



Deadlands uses both. Seriously fun. Check it out.


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## Abisashi (Jan 19, 2009)

Wik said:


> Plus, Abisashi is using a system based on Tarot Cards, I think.




I'm only using Tarot cards for my magic system, but now you've made me want to see if I can run a whole system off of them. I'll see if I think of anything.


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## helium3 (Jan 19, 2009)

Halivar said:


> Deadlands uses both. Seriously fun. Check it out.




Yeah. I can't remember the exact details but I know they use a physical method for outcome determination. Something about a bullseye, right?

Anyhow, doesn't sound like there's anything out there that's like what I'm mulling around. That's good. Or maybe bad. Maybe it's a bad idea.


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## fuindordm (Jan 19, 2009)

EP said:


> Exactly.  Mine borrows heavily from 3.5 and 4e but with everything switched to opposing rolls...  It also allows all players to remain actively rolling dice throughout the game.
> 
> In this regard, this is where I'm experiencing unexpected issues.  There are events and actions in any game that are not opposed by an active character, and so I have to account for these enough in advance to create rules for GM opposed rolls.  If you try to bash a door down, the door must resist, but what if you're trying to remember something?  Do you roll against a set number or roll against your own memory?  And then there's all the stuff you take for granted and never think to account for until it suddenly pops in your head at the last minute.  Since it's the first time I've tried to design a system, it's actually an interesting and appreciative experiment.




I'm taking a similar approach, and running into similar issues. 

I think it's OK to have both contested rolls and rolls against a fixed target number, however. You just have to come up with the right scale, and the probability of success is very easy to predict.

My problem is that in combat, if every 'exchange' is a contested roll it blurs (or erases) the line between attacker and defender.  I envisage combat being a little like a 4e skill challenge, where several contested rolls are needed to determine a significant outcome.  But since each combatant is both attacking and defending in a single 'exchange', it's harder to define mechanics for purely offensive or purely defensive advantages.  This gets back to the problem with shields I mentioned earlier, but I think I just had an idea on that score....

Writing about your problems helps, doesn't it?

Ben


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## Alex319 (Jan 20, 2009)

I came up with an interesting core mechanic that I may be using in my entry.

The general idea is that characters have a pool of raw "magical energy" which they use to power their abilities. But in order to use this "energy," they have to convert it into various "refined forms" which represent different types of activity. For example there is "martial energy" to use for fighting, "arcane energy" to use for magical spells, etc. (The concept behind my world is that all spheres of activity, both overtly "magical" like casting fireballs and not overtly "magical" like swinging swords, are really based on the same fundamental "energy" phenomenon.)

Characters will be differentiated by how efficiently they can convert their raw energy into the various forms. For example a fighter character might be able to convert raw energy into "martial energy" at 80 percent efficiency but only convert into "arcane energy" at 30 percent efficiency, and for a wizard character that might be reversed. Then there will be skills, powers, items etc. which give you different types of actions you can do, and each type of action has an "energy cost." For example casting a spell would cost arcane energy, attacking with a sword would cost martial energy, etc. Then there will be ways of reclaiming lost energy, storing energy in items, etc.


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## jmucchiello (Jan 24, 2009)

I wish I had time (for a lot of things) to participate. I've been kicking around an idea where modern stage illusion is all real. Saw a woman in half (without killing her), walk through a solid wall, throw a blanket over someone and turn them into a tiger, etc. I have no idea how to do this in a game system but it seemed appropriate to this thread.

Gook luck, designers.


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## Jack7 (Jan 24, 2009)

> I've been kicking around an idea where modern stage illusion is all real. Saw a woman in half (without killing her), walk through a solid wall, throw a blanket over someone and turn them into a tiger, etc. I have no idea how to do this in a game system but it seemed appropriate to this thread.




It's a very good idea I think and oddly enough JM, (or maybe not, I'm a big believer in parallel invention and development - where one or more parties invent or create similar things without any real contact with each other, but just because the idea seems ripe for the age, or the idea seems ripe for the subject matter or problem to be addressed - I've seen it on numerous occasions) that's kind of what I'll be doing with the human Wizard.

In the game on the human world there will be no "real magic" in the sense of more traditional fantasy RPGs. Instead Wizards and Magi will be proto-scientists and occultists.

Many Wizards though will be able to create illusions which convince others that the illusion is real. Sometimes they will use "components" and props to do this, but sometimes they will use their mind and will to convince others that the illusion is real. Similar to mentalism and hypnotism. Allowing them to "charm" others and to "enchant" them. Of course the Wizard profession won't be limited to illusions and tricks, they will also be what today would be called a technical expert, a proto-scientist, inventor, and engineer. But creating illusions will be part of their capabilities.

I'm also trying to think about how to redo Psionics. I'm going to move it away from Jedi and Matrix type powers and more back to be what the Greeks called psuchic or psychic (meaning of the soul, or sometimes of the mind) power. Unfortunately the term psychic has such a wide-spread negative connotation with fortune telling and that kind of thing in modern times that I'm almost certain I can't use the term. I may have to invent a new term.

In any case people like Hermits and some Magi and Wizards and others (these capabilities won't be limited to profession or class, that is there won't be a psionic class or classes, there will instead be individuals who are psychically capable) will have psychic powers more like ancient Oracles, Seers, and Prophets. Interpreting dreams accurately, knowing the best course of action to take or direction to follow, predicting the future or possible futures, obtaining information by unknown means, sensing what others may be secretly implying based upon their behavior, or patterns of speech and other psychic and mental capabilities.

I'm also working on "Skill Suites" though I'll call it something else, that is very well developed sets of interrelated skills that individuals can learn independent of class or race, such as Survival Skills, Ingenuity Skills, Vadding Skills, Thieving Skills, Psychological Skills and so forth. That is to say that characters can learn individual skills if they so wish, or they can learn specific suites. And something else that I've been working on for years (but revising and improving lately) and that my group has used for years and years, Transferable Real World Skills. When where a player has a real world skill that is applicable to the game, he or she can write that into their character. But mainly all of those things are part of the modular design.

Overall I'm approaching this gaming project much like some of the work I've done in the past on things like the Renaissance Soldier project, or things like that. the intent is less to produce a "specialist" and more to allow the players to produce Renaissance Characters, characters who are good at a wide range of different skills and who possess a wide range of capabilities. So that they can operate successfully in nearly any environment or situation. None of the individual capabilities for the human characters may seem flashy and impressive, but you put them all together and you produce an incredibly versatile and flexible and capable individual.

As for the non-human characters like the Giants and Elves and so forth, they won't be nearly as versatile, but they will possess very powerful attributes of a different kind, and in some cases, extremely potent, though dangerous magic. So the humans and non-humans will be completely different in design philosophy and have very different types of, but complimentary capabilities. In that way they act very well together as a team, but are also nothing alike in nature or culture. Or that's what I'm shooting for anyways.




> Characters will be differentiated by how efficiently they can convert their raw energy into the various forms. For example a fighter character might be able to convert raw energy into "martial energy" at 80 percent efficiency but only convert into "arcane energy" at 30 percent efficiency, and for a wizard character that might be reversed. Then there will be skills, powers, items etc. which give you different types of actions you can do, and each type of action has an "energy cost." For example casting a spell would cost arcane energy, attacking with a sword would cost martial energy, etc. Then there will be ways of reclaiming lost energy, storing energy in items, etc.




By the way Alex, I like that general idea. In the non-human world I'm not limiting magical power based on class, or necessarily even by race, though I'm doing it differently than you appear to be doing, just like in the human world I'm not limiting miracles and "Divine magic" to just clerics, monks, and hermits. In the non-human world magic will be diffused throughout the cultures and in the human world a miracle might happen through anyone.

So I like your idea. Another example of parallel development.


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## feuer_faust (Jan 25, 2009)

(Is it just me, or is EN World a _very_ slow-loading forum?)

Work's slowing down on this RPG, as real-world work is going to be picking up. Hopefully something playable, one month to go! =/


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## fuindordm (Jan 26, 2009)

Hope everyone is doing well! Only about 4 weeks to go.

I haven't made much progress over the past couple of weeks, but my inner musing have yielded some fruit that I should get down on paper soon. The structure of the rules is pretty much set--now I need to fill pages with enough rules on magic and magical obstacles to make the setting itself playable.

Cheers,
Ben


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## Jack7 (Jan 27, 2009)

> (Is it just me, or is EN World a very slow-loading forum?)




It is FF, but then again I live so far out in the country that I can't get high-speed internet access and had just assumed it was because I am forced to use dial-up.


My progress, *Thus Far*


*TABLE OF CONTENTS*

*THE GODD
The Apportional Design
  The Basic Game
The Advanced Game

CHARACTER ATTRIBUTES
CHARACTER RACES
 Human Races
 Eldeven Races
CHARACTER PROFESSIONS
 Human Professions
 Eldeven Professions
CLASSES
 Human Classes
 Eldeven Classes
WEAL and FEAL
LANGUAGES
RELIGION and GOD
PERSONAL ALLEGIANCE and WORLDVIEW
LORE
SKILL and SKILL SUITES
CRAFT
INVENTION
TRWS
EXPERIENCE AND ADVANCEMENT
CHARACTER STRATEGIC EVOLUTION AND HEROISM
RENAISSANCE CHARACTERS

EQUIPMENT
ARMS
ARMOR

COMBAT
 Physical Combat
 Magical Combat
 Psychic Combat

MAGIC (ELTURGY)
MIRACLES (THAUMATURGY)
MIND AND SOUL (WYTURGY and PSYCHAEC FORCE)

NEMESES
MONSTERS
NON-PLAYER CHARACTERS

MILIEU
MONEY and ECONOMICS
SOCIAL STATUS, TITLES, AND RANK
HERO, GENIUS, AND SAINT
KINGMAKING: BISHOP, KNIGHT, AND KING - MOVING FROM BEING A LEADING CHARACTER TO BEING A LEADER OF CHARACTER
VERTICAL ASCENSION and HORIZONTAL EXPANSION

ADVENTURING
CAMPAIGNING
WORLD CREATION and SETTING
ADVENTURE AND CAMPAIGN CREATION and THE TSS

CHARTS AND GRAPHS

GLOSSARY*


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## Jack7 (Jan 30, 2009)

This is basically (the basic design model) how I intend to go about addressing magical and miraculous _*Items, Devices, Artifacts*_, and _*Relics*_ in my game:

*http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/248536-museum-laboratory-invention.html*


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## Jack7 (Feb 8, 2009)

Just checking to see how everyone else is doing, and what kind of progress they are making.

Also, I've decided to include a _*War Supplement*_ with my game design.

*The Rules of War*


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## jdrakeh (Feb 8, 2009)

feuer_faust said:


> (Is it just me, or is EN World a _very_ slow-loading forum?)




They've been having some DNS issues. A confirmed solution is posted by Mistwell, here. 



> Work's slowing down on this RPG, as real-world work is going to be picking up. Hopefully something playable, one month to go! =/




_Damn_ real life! I will yet defeat this thing!


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## Wik (Feb 9, 2009)

Ha ha, yeah, Real Life has got in my way, as well.  But, I'm pushing along.  I'll have to cut things, but I'll make sure I get SOMETHING out.


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## EP (Feb 22, 2009)

While not fully complete, it is as much as can be given the deadline and time available to get 'er done.

IGNITION: 2050 unveils the science behind magic.  On January 27, 2037, a nuclear blast wiped out the city of Baltimore.  Publicly declared a terrorist attack, the truth remains under tight seal by NATO and the European Union: a lone scientist conducting his own research unraveled the mysteries of radiant energy, a source of solar energy capable of defying reality.  In short, specific wavelengths emitted by the sun create magic.

You play an arc caster working for one of the major superpowers of the world: China, India, the United States, Russia, or Brazil.  Equipped with your ARC suits, you can manipulate the radiant energy stored within your biomechanical suit of amour to create arcs with a series of fifteen waves (translated frequencies of radiant energy capable of unleashing specific effects).  Designed as an open-ended magic system, players can launch any number of arcs of their own design by spending arc points tailored around their individual arcs.  Success is determined by an opposed roll against another player or HQ (Headquarters, AKA the Gamemaster), thereby allowing players to maintain suspense and constant action with every action taken at the table.  Player can also create customized exploits for pre-set, ready-to-use arcs, tactics, and incredible talents with greater ease.

I have to admit.  This was awesome to do.  I've never actually gone ahead and devised a new roleplaying system before and the experience was very eye-opening.  I hope this will do the trick and that any first draft errors will be at a minimum, but thanks for the shot, fellas.  Good luck to my fellow competitors and looking forward to finding out the winner.


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## Jack7 (Feb 22, 2009)

> IGNITION: 2050 unveils the science behind magic. On January 27, 2037, a nuclear blast wiped out the city of Baltimore. Publicly declared a terrorist attack, the truth remains under tight seal by NATO and the European Union: a lone scientist conducting his own research unraveled the mysteries of radiant energy, a source of solar energy capable of defying reality. In short, specific wavelengths emitted by the sun create magic.
> 
> You play an arc caster working for one of the major superpowers of the world: China, India, the United States, Russia, or Brazil. Equipped with your ARC suits, you can manipulate the radiant energy stored within your biomechanical suit of amour to create arcs with a series of fifteen waves (translated frequencies of radiant energy capable of unleashing specific effects). Designed as an open-ended magic system, players can launch any number of arcs of their own design by spending arc points tailored around their individual arcs. Success is determined by an opposed roll against another player or HQ (Headquarters, AKA the Gamemaster), thereby allowing players to maintain suspense and constant action with every action taken at the table. Player can also create customized exploits for pre-set, ready-to-use arcs, tactics, and incredible talents with greater ease.
> 
> I have to admit. This was awesome to do. I've never actually gone ahead and devised a new roleplaying system before and the experience was very eye-opening. I hope this will do the trick and that any first draft errors will be at a minimum, but thanks for the shot, fellas. Good luck to my fellow competitors and looking forward to finding out the winner.





I like the idea EP, and from what I've seen so far I like the way you've worked it. I think your idea and approach improved a lot over time from your original design.

Congratulations on your effort.
I'll read it in more detail later.
It's very interesting.


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## Wik (Feb 22, 2009)

Hm.  IGNITION seems pretty cool!  Military-based magical game!  Nice.  I really like how you refer to the GM as "HQ".  Very nice touch.

Exploits are a great idea, too - pick one facet of your character, whether it be a skill, attribute, spell, or whatever - and you get a bonus using that power.  Very nice touch.  

Your name for combat is great, too ("A step by step guide for killing your opponents").  In fact, your chapter names are pretty much golden.  

The Arcs seem particularly cool.  I really need to read them in more detail... but I'm working on my own game right now!  And I don't think it'd be wise for me to do more than just skim your game at this point.


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## EP (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks.  I'm just a big fan of open-ended rules that are not bogged down by details.  I have one player in particular who always says "Why does the spell only go five feet?"  I built the game with him in mind.

And now that I'm free from the bonds of Ignition (for now), I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone else did.


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## GlassEye (Feb 26, 2009)

The end is nigh!

Too bad I didn't stumble across this thread two months ago.   It sounds like a lot of fun.  And hard work, of course.

EP, Ignition is nicely done.  I enjoyed the quick look over I did last night and look forward to reading it in more depth.

Can hardly wait to see what else you all have been working on!


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## Primal (Feb 26, 2009)

helium3 said:


> Is anyone aware of any systems besides Amber that don't rely on determining the outcome of an action randomly with dice?




Active Exploits is diceless, I think, and Baron Munchausen Storytelling Game as well. Polaris, Shock and several other Indie RPGs use negotiation (i.e. to gain something you need to sacrifice something). Then there're several systems that use cards or tokens/chips (bidding) as conflict resolution mechanics, e.g. Mortal Coil, Swansong and Dragonlance/Marvel Saga. Then there's Dread which uses Jenga. 

There are others, but those are the ones that immediately came to mind.


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## Lord Xtheth (Feb 26, 2009)

my notebook found its way into my washing machine... I couldn't salvage anything, so I gave up. 

I'll try again some other time... when my morale gets back up.


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## twistnack (Feb 26, 2009)

I've been working on *Deep Black*, a game of ex-CIA officers with magic powers trying to change the future. Right now I'm working on getting it proofed, so it should be ready by Saturday.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 28, 2009)

GlassEye said:


> The end is nigh!
> 
> Too bad I didn't stumble across this thread two months ago.   It sounds like a lot of fun.  And hard work, of course.



So wait until Saturday and do it as a 24-hour RPG.


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## RandomCitizenX (Feb 28, 2009)

jmucchiello said:


> So wait until Saturday and do it as a 24-hour RPG.




Because of the really real world, this has become my situation (at least I have a ton of brainstorming done)


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## jdrakeh (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, I plan to start reading entries later today. A fair warning, though — I'm heavily medicated at the time and wilol be going in for some blood work over the next few weeks, so that may effect the speed of my evaluation.


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## Wik (Feb 28, 2009)

Looking forward to getting this thing done, chief.  I'm doing the final touch-ups on my game.  I should have it in fairly late on saturday, though.  Keep in mind that I'm on Pacific Time, so there is the possibility it could come in after "midnight" in someone else's time zone.  

I'll be submitting it as PDF.


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## twistnack (Feb 28, 2009)

*Deep Black*

Here’s the Great Conjunction edition of Deep Black for your consideration. In this game you play ex-CIA spies that have gained magic powers after participating in a government run experiment. It’s a mix of espionage, crime drama, and surrealism. It’s also something I wouldn’t have done if not for this contest.

This game would have been very different if I hadn’t of listened to the episode of Have Games, Will Travel on Stick, which directed me to Vincent Baker’s _In a Wicked Age_. I also owe the people that helped me playtest the game, and the people that gave me notes on the manuscript a debt of gratitude.

I hope people enjoy it.


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## Jack7 (Feb 28, 2009)

I'll study _*Deep Black*_ in more detail later on Twist, but I already like the idea and the presentation. And the simplicity and efficiency of the layout.

It vaguely reminds me of altered reality/perception and remote viewing experiments.


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## twistnack (Feb 28, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> I'll study _*Deep Black*_ in more detail later on Twist, but I already like the idea and the presentation. And the simplicity and efficiency of the layout.
> 
> It vaguely reminds me of altered reality/perception and remote viewing experiments.




Thanks.

I was thinking about those old studies into remote viewing and psychic phenomenon when I started working on the project. I have this great book Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain that probably should have reread while I was working on the game.


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## Arkhandus (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, I wound up too busy with other obligations and distractions (like buying a few video games on the cheap that I had been looking for since this X-Mas or last X-Mas), so I never got around to typing up more than an outline for my idea, though I spent several mroe hours thinking about it and brainstorming.  Oh well.


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## Wik (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, here's my entry.  I gotta say, it felt real nice when I finished it.  It's actually about 48 pages if it hadn't been set in columns, but I always thought columns looked nicer.  There was a lot I wanted to put in but couldn't (Psychic storms, more enclaves, some info on ruined cities beyond the hints I gave, more monsters, a whole slew of GM advice and random tables, a survival-based "random events" rules system, a pre-made adventure, more skills, more powers....).  I just didn't have space or time, and two weeks ago, I realized I had to focus on getting the core game finished.  

I learned a lot doing this, and I'm thinking I'll now go over my game, clean some things up, and really expand upon it.  I had a lot of fun in this competition, and I think it'd be fun to make this an annual thing.  Hell, I'd be interested in trying out one of those 24 hour RPG design games... or, better yet, a one-week design.  I'd love to do another one of these a few months down the road!

So, here's my game.  Any and all feedback welcome.


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## fuindordm (Mar 1, 2009)

*The Jewel of Virtue*

Well here's my entry. I only got about 2/3 of the way through it, and there are a lot of ideas in my head that I never got down on paper. But a lot of the core is there, and I'm pretty happy with what I've written.

The _really _gaping hole is a standard method for character advancement. Oh, well.

At least now I have enough material that I'll keep working and finish the thing eventually.

Cheers,
Ben


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## CardinalXimenes (Mar 1, 2009)

I didn't note my participation in this, as I wasn't sure I'd have time to gin anything up. All the same, I did manage to pitch together a few ideas for a retro-flavored offering. I think the biggest lesson I learned during this was that my layout skills are truly abominable. If I do something like this again, I really need to devote more time to learning how to put things together in a clean, easily-read format like some of the other offerings that've been put up so far.


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## Jack7 (Mar 1, 2009)

> I was thinking about those old studies into remote viewing and psychic phenomenon when I started working on the project. I have this great book P_*sychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain*_ that probably should have reread while I was working on the game.




_Good Lord Twist_, *that's an old book*. I read that thing back in the Sixties I think, when I was fighting Commies (those were the good old days.)

As a matter of fact, let me go look it up. I think I have a copy buried in my old Intel library. 

Yep. Ostrander and Schroeder. But it was copyright 1970, not the Sixties.
Still, it is an interesting read.

And I'm looking forward to downloading and studying everyone's work.
Over the next couple of weeks or so.
Well, downloading now, studying later.


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## RandomCitizenX (Mar 1, 2009)

Well guys it looks like life has forced me to bow out at the last second. I pretty much have the whole thing designed, but there is just no way I can type up the remainder of the material before the deadline. I just want to say good job to everyone who has turned in their submission so far. I looked over a few and they all looked top notch. Hopefully I will be able to post my game up eventually, to at least get some feedback, but now I have to go back to work on other things.


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## Jack7 (Mar 1, 2009)

> Hopefully I will be able to post my game up eventually, to at least get some feedback, but now I have to go back to work on other things.




Sorry to hear you won't make it X but let us know when you get something up. Maybe through this thread.

As for the rest of you guys if some of you did another careful edit (I mean for typos, etc.) then I suggest you might try putting your works up on game market sites like RPGNow (if that is allowed) and see how that goes.

Even if you just offer it for free then at least you can get a gauge and feedback for what the market thinks of your ideas.


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## Abisashi (Mar 1, 2009)

Needs more content; I really wish I'd had another day. I'll probably post a version with more content in a while.

edit: That was the version with a silly typo, let me try that again. Look at the version in the next post.


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## Abisashi (Mar 1, 2009)

Hopefully I got the attachment right this time.

View attachment Tarot Arcana.doc

Anyway, I'm happy with the mechanics, but I'd really like to add more content, and I'd like a lot more playtesting. Like I said, I'll proably work on this some more an post an updated version in the future. If you have any feedback please tell me; the most helpful thing for me was having my brother read over the rules, because without it  a lot of them would be gibberish.


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## Wik (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm really excited by everything that's getting posted.  Cardinal - your layout looks great to me.  I learned a lot just by looking at it - and I slapped my head with the pure simplicity of your layout.  I love the retro look of things.

And your monster list is pretty neat.

I'll be doing a lot of reading tomorrow, and posting my initial impressions of everyone's work.  I'm really excited by what I see.


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## EP (Mar 1, 2009)

Argh, why didn't I make time for layout too?

Oh, yeah.  I could barely finish the writing itself before the deadline.

Just started downloading and looking forward to getting some reading done.


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## twistnack (Mar 2, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> _Good Lord Twist_, *that's an old book*. I read that thing back in the Sixties I think, when I was fighting Commies (those were the good old days.)
> 
> As a matter of fact, let me go look it up. I think I have a copy buried in my old Intel library.
> 
> ...




Yeah, the book's a little over a decade older than I am, though some of the materials I used to get myself excited about the project* are older.

* Mostly early Alfred Hitchcock films and episodes of _The Prisoner_.


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## Abisashi (Mar 2, 2009)

Wik said:
			
		

> I learned a lot doing this, and I'm thinking I'll now go over my game, clean some things up, and really expand upon it.




I've been working on mine a lot today, and I think it's become 50% more playable in the last 24 hours.

My plan is to post a play-tested version with better-written rules an a lot more content by April 1st; I think setting a public deadline will help get me to do it.

The biggest lesson I got from this? Don't procrastinate!    Too bad I already knew that.


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## twistnack (Mar 3, 2009)

Abisashi said:


> I've been working on mine a lot today, and I think it's become 50% more playable in the last 24 hours.
> 
> My plan is to post a play-tested version with better-written rules an a lot more content by April 1st; I think setting a public deadline will help get me to do it.
> 
> The biggest lesson I got from this? Don't procrastinate!    Too bad I already knew that.




I am interested in seeing what you come up with.


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## Jack7 (Mar 3, 2009)

> * Mostly early Alfred Hitchcock films and episodes of The Prisoner.




You can't go wrong with _*the Prisoner*_ or most Hitchcock.


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## Wik (Mar 4, 2009)

Abisashi said:


> I've been working on mine a lot today, and I think it's become 50% more playable in the last 24 hours.
> 
> My plan is to post a play-tested version with better-written rules an a lot more content by April 1st; I think setting a public deadline will help get me to do it.
> 
> The biggest lesson I got from this? Don't procrastinate!    Too bad I already knew that.




Yeah, I'm finding some huge errors in my game already.  I don't like the Damage System (AT ALL), and I've begun toying around with an exploding die damage mechanic.  My big problem is that my Hit Point/ Wound system doesn't mesh well with the numbers I've given in some major ways.

regarding procrastination - I'm just as guilty.  So very guilty.

***

While people are still coming here, what are the thoughts on doing this again in a few months time, only with a shorter product and a shorter deadline?  I was thinking it'd be fun to do a judgeless one, with the entrants putting in a smaller product (ie, just basic rules and chargen), and putting them up for votes - every week, there'd be a new "supplement" to this core game that'd have to be written up, and a new round of voting.  

It'd be the same length of time overall, but it'd be something that would prevent us from really procrastinating.  Also, if we put up a list of themes and whatnot, and had them voted for, we could run this whole thing without a judge.


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## Jack7 (Mar 4, 2009)

> While people are still coming here, what are the thoughts on doing this again in a few months time, only with a shorter product and a shorter deadline? I was thinking it'd be fun to do a judgeless one, with the entrants putting in a smaller product (ie, just basic rules and chargen), and putting them up for votes - every week, there'd be a new "supplement" to this core game that'd have to be written up, and a new round of voting.
> 
> It'd be the same length of time overall, but it'd be something that would prevent us from really procrastinating. Also, if we put up a list of themes and whatnot, and had them voted for, we could run this whole thing without a judge.





I'm not opposed to it at all, though I'm still working on the first one as it turned out to personally be a much larger project than I had originally imagined.

In this next round Wik are you talking about creating _"supplements"_ to this project just completed, or a whole new and different *"core game."* It was kinda hard to tell exactly from your phrasing.

I don't mind producing supplementary works because of the fact that I think a lot of the stuff I've read so far from others could be greatly, profitably, and very interestingly expanded upon. Plus I gotta lot of expansion work to do on my own work.

_I'm also very much for an ongoing process and project of critique and improvement on what has already been produced._ *Critiquing the Conjunction*. 

I like to try and finish up one thing before moving on to another. Make the ship as tight as possible.

However I'm also not opposed in theory to creating a whole new work because I've got about six games I intend to eventually revise and standardize (using the same basic design parameters and "system" if you will, but varying in the details and in setting and time-frame and genre) that I can work in my spare time.

So either way, I'm game to the game.


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## EP (Mar 4, 2009)

Wik said:


> YWhile people are still coming here, what are the thoughts on doing this again in a few months time, only with a shorter product and a shorter deadline?




I've already thought about continuing on with Ignition regardless.  There's still much to be done and I've already come up with some new revisions to step it up a notch, but doing so through the Conjunction would make sense.  The more input, the better.


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## Wik (Mar 6, 2009)

Y'know, I didn't even think about continuing what we've done here, but that would be a better idea.  And it'd help keep me going on my current work.  But, if we did that, I wouldn't mind giving newcomers a chance to work on their own games beforehand, so that we could get more blood.

Or, we could just run this between us, each adding more and more through the "mini-challenges" we set for ourselves (each week or two-week period).  

Some things ("mini-sourcebooks") I'd want to add to Awakening:

1)  A "Player's Option" book with more skills and a refined psychic power system.
2)  a "gear" book, with prices for items and expanded barter rules.
3)  More monsters.  A lot more.  Trust me, I have ideas.
4)  An "adventures" booklet, built more like Dungeon Delve than a single module.
5)  A "DMG" of sorts.


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## EP (Mar 6, 2009)

How about something simpler like a second draft?  Work out the kinks from this round, style it up a bit, and submit something with more depth.  Expand the pages to 70 and allow us fine tune what's been done before?  I know Ignition could definitely benefit from that.


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## Jack7 (Mar 6, 2009)

> 1. But, if we did that, I wouldn't mind giving newcomers a chance to work on their own games beforehand, so that we could get more blood.
> 
> 2. Or, we could just run this between us, each adding more and more through the "mini-challenges" we set for ourselves (each week or two-week period).
> 
> 3. How about something simpler like a second draft? Work out the kinks from this round, style it up a bit, and submit something with more depth. Expand the pages to 70 and allow us fine tune what's been done before? I know Ignition could definitely benefit from that.





I actually like all three of those ideas.


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## Abisashi (Mar 6, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> I actually like all three of those ideas.




They all seem good to me, though we should definitely do second drafts first (whether or not it is a formal goal) because there are some things in my game (Tarot Arcana) that are never explained which are rather important in order to play the game.

Oops


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## Jack7 (Mar 6, 2009)

> They all seem good to me, though we should definitely do second drafts first (whether or not it is a formal goal) because there are some things in my game (Tarot Arcana) that are never explained which are rather important in order to play the game.




I agree that for most of you some order of procedure between 2 and 3 might be best (as for me I'm still working on my project, though it is well over 70 pages by now), but for newcomers they could work their initial project while we're working ours, and then catch-up later if they are interested.

They don't have to be excluded, they'll just be working a different part of their own project and a different timeline (though a parallel one) than we are.


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## RandomCitizenX (Mar 6, 2009)

I like the idea of mini challenges, but one thing we may want to consider is maybe just upping the page count on the existing projects and seeing what we could fit in. (I know I didn't finish my project in time, but when I was working on it there were several options I had to scrap in design due to limited space)


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## Wik (Mar 7, 2009)

Yeah, the idea of a page increase is a good one, and simpler.  I like it.  

I start a big course in a few weeks, and it will go until the second week of May, so I think I'd like it if I was able to spend that time simply editing and updating my draft, and then starting work after I'm done.  Of course, that's a personal preference.

The plus of it being, if we advertised a bit on the forums, we could get some new blood in, working on their initial RPG while we fixed up ours.

What if we set a list of challenges to tackle, and went from there?  (ie, "Include an adventure", "form a setting chapter", and stuff like that?  I think that'd be fun.  

Another thing I'd like to see, later on down the road, would be people making additions to OTHER people's game systems.  That'd be a fun one.


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## twistnack (Mar 9, 2009)

I was planning on working an expanded version of Deep Black anyway. So, I would be game for the second draft idea.

Here's what I've been thinking about for Deep Black (in no particular order):

1) A section about various locations in the US along with two or three rumors for each location that can be used as springboards.
2) A solo adventure. A friend suggested it to me and it seems to fit the game, though I'm not sure how to go about it.
3) A replay, a transcript of a game that's supposed to be instructive and entertaining. Japanese role-playing games media used the a lot.
4) More antagonists.
5) Give some special attention to the Sorcery section and add some specific examples.
6) General proofing and clarification.



Wik said:


> What if we set a list of challenges to tackle, and went from there?  (ie, "Include an adventure", "form a setting chapter", and stuff like that?  I think that'd be fun.




That could make things a little more interesting.



Wik said:


> Another thing I'd like to see, later on down the road, would be people making additions to OTHER people's game systems.  That'd be a fun one.




Oddly enough, I been thinking that writing a scenario for Awakening might be fun.


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## Herobizkit (Dec 4, 2009)

So... who won, where's the winning product, and what did that person win?


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## Wik (Dec 4, 2009)

There was no winner.  It sort of turned into a collaboration.  And a lot of fun stuff was released.  I wonder if any of those games were regularly played?  I know I did a bunch of extra work on the Awakening, but never played it.


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## jmucchiello (Dec 28, 2009)

So, when is the next contest? Wik mentioned something to me about it in another thread without following up.


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## Wik (Dec 28, 2009)

Um.  Next contest starts in 3 days.  

Thread update is going to come up in a few hours, when I put a few things together.


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