# Dragon 379: Assassin Heroic Tier



## thecasualoblivion (Sep 11, 2009)

Dragon 379: Assassin Heroic Tier

discuss


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

Shadow powers are called "hexes."  Interesting...so does this confirm an upcoming hexblade task?  I'd say the chances are good.


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 11, 2009)

It has Wizard HP. One build is Dex/Con and generates temporary HP and is controllery, the other is Dex/Cha with two extra Striker damage features(that stack) and is very fragile.

Sustainable invisibility(in dim light) at level 2.


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## Vael (Sep 11, 2009)

First impressions: Me likey. I like the flavour, and some of the powers are pretty cool.

Looking forward to seeing some actual Ki Focuses.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, there's a lot of invisibility and teleportation, as well as ways to boost or augment a Stealth check.  Damage keywords seem to focus on Poison, Cold, Force, and Psychic, and there are a lot of Fear, Conjuration and Illusion effects (a striker with a wall power!).  A mix of implement and weapon powers (and its nice that you use your ki focus or magic weapon as an implement, even if the article doesn't describe magical ki foci).


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

thecasualoblivion said:


> It has Wizard HP. One build is Dex/Con and generates temporary HP and is controllery, the other is Dex/Cha with two extra Striker damage features(that stack) and is very fragile.
> 
> Sustainable invisibility(in dim light) at level 2.




Did you notice that all of its blast and wall powers target "creatures."  Don't let your allies get too close!

The one disappointment for me is the lack of racial feats for drow and changelings.  They did add two paragon feats, so maybe they got ommitted by accident.  Also, loving the venom feats.


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 11, 2009)

You can also use your Ki Focus for weapon attacks, using its properties and enhancement bonus with any random weapon you pick up, or even improvised weapons like fireplace pokers and broken bottles and such.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 11, 2009)

I am underwhelmed...

    I was hopeing (based on trevor saying that there was more then just powers) that we would have every thing for including this class in a heroic teir game...but we don't

without ki focus items it is not fully usable, and I really wanted at least the multi class feat, but really the hybrid too...


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## Cadfan (Sep 11, 2009)

I really like the tactical aspect.  Sure, its hit points are low, but you really shouldn't be adjacent to an enemy for more than an instant.  Shadow Step lets you jump into an ally's shadow, and half your attacks are ranged, so feel free to hit and run.

Captured Shadow wins the cool award so far.


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## Markn (Sep 11, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> The one disappointment for me is the lack of racial feats for drow and changelings.




I agree.  Also, I didn't see any multiclass feat in case you want to dabble into the Assassin.


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## Ceramicwombat (Sep 11, 2009)

I think they didn't include racial feats for drow and changelings because they are a perfect fit for the class. Every other race (with the exception of revenants and halflings) has non-optimal ability score adjustments, so the designers gave them feats to encourage playing assassins of those races. Halflings have the right stats but they are small, so they get a feat. Revenants get two because they are supposed to be archetypal assassins. That's just my guess for the logic behind it.

I like the shroud mechanic. It lets you pick off minions as necessary while saving up shrouds on another enemy so your extra striker damage isn't wasted. It looks like a complicated class to play which, for me, is a bonus. The next time our party needs a rogue I think I'll roll up an assassin.


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## CelticMutt (Sep 11, 2009)

Ceramicwombat said:


> I think they didn't include racial feats for drow and changelings because they are a perfect fit for the class. Every other race (with the exception of revenants and halflings) has non-optimal ability score adjustments, so the designers gave them feats to encourage playing assassins of those races. Halflings have the right stats but they are small, so they get a feat. Revenants get two because they are supposed to be archetypal assassins. That's just my guess for the logic behind it.




That's not it.  No race outside of the 2 PHBs got a feat, except the Revenant, and the only reason it did is because it's been so hyped as the Assassin race.  But there are no feats for any FRPG, EPG, or Dragon race otherwise, while every single PHB1 and PHB2 race got a feat.   Hopefully those will be included with the article with the multiclass feat(s).



GMforPowergamers said:


> without ki focus items it is not fully usable, and I really wanted at least the multi class feat, but really the hybrid too...




I doubt we'll see hybrid rules for it til the PHB3 comes out.  Actually, I fully expect to see the hybrid rules to appear in the same issue as the future third build that will be coming out next year.


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## Ceramicwombat (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, you are probably right. No genasi or warforged assassin feats, I didn't think of that.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 11, 2009)

More needed for the article but I like the flavour of the class. 
Especially 'Shadow Step' at will teleport, ZOMFG! That is instant flanking, just add rogue hybrid!


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## applenerd (Sep 11, 2009)

This is kind of tangential to the class mechanics, but I was hoping to find some of the developer commentary in the sidebars as they have done in some of the previous previews.  I always enjoy reading the thinking behind the decisions that went into the design.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 11, 2009)

Mmmm just inwardly digesting. 

I see where they have got shrouds from, 'study the target for three rounds- make a death attack'. In that you can add a shroud every round (more with feats) to a max of four. But, annoyingly, because it is 4E they know they are 'shrouded' so it is only (like so much in 4E) only a in-combat feature. Now you can take that feat lets you do it sneaky when hidden but not much use in many situations. So my first Assassins feat:

*Shroud in the Crowd*
*Prerequisite:* Assassin, _assassin’s shroud_ power
*Benefit:* Creatures which do not think of you as hostile are not aware of your shrouds.

So the Assassin can assassinate... in public put the shrouds down and when the moment is right, strike and do a pile of damage.

Also Velvet Blade Trick and Versatile Master seem a nice pair of feats, pity you have to wait to paragon


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 11, 2009)

applenerd said:


> This is kind of tangential to the class mechanics, but I was hoping to find some of the developer commentary in the sidebars as they have done in some of the previous previews.  I always enjoy reading the thinking behind the decisions that went into the design.



Looks very interesting. So, what's my next Striker gonna be? Avenger or Assassin? Decisions decisions...


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## The_Fan (Sep 11, 2009)

Thing is, this isn't a preview. This won't be in a future PHB (perhaps a Dragon annual), but this and the three other articles are it. Look at this like an entry in the PHB.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 11, 2009)

The_Fan said:


> Thing is, this isn't a preview. This won't be in a future PHB (perhaps a Dragon annual), but this and the three other articles are it. Look at this like an entry in the PHB.



Doesn't mean we don't want designer comments.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 11, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Doesn't mean we don't want designer comments.



But it DOES mean we want Ki items!


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## Phaezen (Sep 11, 2009)

Still reading through the article, but I am liking what I am seeing so far.  The interplay between Ki-Focus and Weapon looks interesting and flavourful.


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## CelticMutt (Sep 11, 2009)

The_Fan said:


> Thing is, this isn't a preview. This won't be in a future PHB (perhaps a Dragon annual), but this and the three other articles are it. Look at this like an entry in the PHB.



Well, not exactly.  I mean, it's not going to be just these three articles.  We've already been told that sometime early next year (I predict around the release time of PHB3) that a new article with a third build feature will be presented.  The devs also said that it and other DDi exclusives will continue to get future support, so I fully expect that whenever the Shadow Power book comes along (probably late 2011) there will be at least one more article.  Plus I'd bet on an "Assassins in Dark Sun/2011+ Setting) articles as well.


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## Rechan (Sep 11, 2009)

You guys think we'll get the multi-class feat and the items too, when the three articles are out?

It'd sure be nice if they were all in one PDF instead of three.


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## Phaezen (Sep 11, 2009)

Rechan said:


> You guys think we'll get the multi-class feat and the items too, when the three articles are out?
> 
> It'd sure be nice if they were all in one PDF instead of three.




Mike Mearls has confirmed that there are hybrid rules coming, so it should be safe to assume that there is a multiclass feat?


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## wedgeski (Sep 11, 2009)

OMG! You killed him and I had a four-pointer teed up and ready to go! 

Shroud mechanics are essentially a D&D combo-point system, and I like what they've done with it here, especially the flavouir inherent in the Marked For Death power. Plus, cue up four Shrouds on a victim and you're guaranteed 3d6 damage on it, hit or miss. Always nice to be assured of a big hit when you need one.

Elsewhere the imagery is great. Literally stepping into one person's shadow (okay, shadow 'energy') and emerging from the shadow of one of his mates is really cool.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

Rechan said:


> You guys think we'll get the multi-class feat and the items too, when the three articles are out?
> 
> It'd sure be nice if they were all in one PDF instead of three.




Technically, we will, at the end of the month.  I can see why they're doing this, as the final version will probably be 30+ pages.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

What I'm a little disappointed in is that the assassin has the ability to generate Combat Advantage so easily without any ability to capitalize on it.

It is just a little frustrating knowing that you can turn invisible, hide easily, have abilities that give enemies "the target grants combat advantage (save ends)" but you gain no benefits from it at all other than +2 to hit.

It just feels like a class that SHOULD get some benefit when they strike from the shadows.  That's pretty much how me and my roommates all felt as we read the class.  It was pretty much: "Ok, so you can turn invisible.  That does give people -5 to hit you, but other than that...why?"


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## Vael (Sep 11, 2009)

Well, all that invisibility is going to be handy when you've got controller HP.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 11, 2009)

I find it interesting that its implements are ki focuses.  I really have to wonder if the assassin then was actually originally going to be the ninja, but got reworked / renamed once the Ki power source was removed?  Could ki focuses be one of the last remaining vestiges of the Ki source that will appear in several of the upcoming classes?

I think we'll probably have a better idea once we see more of PH3... as there's a pretty good chance that the new divine and primal classes being introduced there are actually reworked / renamed Ki classes as well.  If those classes use ki focuses as implements instead of (or in addition to) holy symbols, staves, totems etc... then we'll know pretty well who killed Ki and took its stuff.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

Vael said:


> Well, all that invisibility is going to be handy when you've got controller HP.




Yeah, that seems to be the major reason.  Which is an alright reason.

But they have a lot of abilities that don't actually make you invisible, just give you combat advantage.  These are the ones I'm wondering about.

I'm actually a little concerned that the class doesn't appear to output that much damage either.  Especially the Con based build.  Your extra damage is smaller than Rogues.  You do get to use bigger weapons with your attacks...but at the same time there's a lot of role playing reasons to use small weapons(you can conceal them for one...kind of useful as an assassin).

Plus, a lot of their utilities are very useful in a purely role playing situation...which is kind of cool.  But at the same time, they are pretty much ONLY useful in a solo situation where the assassin is attempting to sneak into a building by himself, take out the guards along the way and kill someone then sneak out.  Which is good, because that's what an assassin should be able to do.  But in an actual D&D game, I see this situation happening almost never.  No one wants to sit back and watch the assassin go on a solo mission.  Plus, the mechanics of 4e are designed around group battles.  It creates an odd situation.

Take, for example, the feat that makes it so that enemies who are unaware of you don't realize that they've been shrouded.  It's a cool roleplaying feat.  You can sneak up on a guard, they don't know you are there, you shroud one of them 4 times.  Then you jump out of cover and hit them with your full shroud bonus.  But the average 4e party is pretty much incapable of sneaking up on anyone.  Even when they are capable of sneaking, they often choose not to due to time constraints or pure overconfidence.  So, unless the assassin is by himself, the feat will almost never get used.

I suppose it COULD be used in combat, if you were invisible and decided to wait 4 rounds without attacking while you shrouded an enemy.  But that seems a rather poor way of helping your party in combat.


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## wayne62682 (Sep 11, 2009)

I wonder if the full class will be put into Character Builder like the Monk and Psion, so it will be legal to use for Living Forgotten Realms


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

wayne62682 said:


> I wonder if the full class will be put into Character Builder like the Monk and Psion, so it will be legal to use for Living Forgotten Realms




Yep (well I can't speak to LFR), it will be in the CB as of the 10-6 update.


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## wedgeski (Sep 11, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Plus, a lot of their utilities are very useful in a purely role playing situation...which is kind of cool.  But at the same time, they are pretty much ONLY useful in a solo situation where the assassin is attempting to sneak into a building by himself, take out the guards along the way and kill someone then sneak out.  Which is good, because that's what an assassin should be able to do.  But in an actual D&D game, I see this situation happening almost never.  No one wants to sit back and watch the assassin go on a solo mission.  Plus, the mechanics of 4e are designed around group battles.  It creates an odd situation.



He's the sapper, the guy feared by the rear echelon. I'm pretty sure that his friends will be very happy to see the Assassin slip through enemy lines to Shroud the big hitters/controllers and take them down. It's not a unique schtick, but he certainly has a unique feel IMO.


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## DarkMasterBR (Sep 11, 2009)

Just FYI, I twittered mikemearls asking him about the enemy's awareness of the shrouds:

me: @mikemearls Is an enemy aware of the Assassin's Shrouds?

mearls: @jpjandrade I believe an enemy is not aware of them.

Much more cool that way, even though it raises the question of which powers in an enemy aware and which one's he is not.


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 11, 2009)

I could see them getting a build later on related to light thrown weapons.

As for their abilties to easily hide and all that, I certainly see use in that in games with a party. Often if you're the one that's hiding, you're the one that's ahead of the rest of the party.  That gives you plenty of time to build up shrouds while the rest of the party moves in.

I think an Assassin especially a Nightstalker should also do what they can to have as high of an AC as possible.  Though unlike the Avenger or Swordmage, they don't have anything that boosts it a few more points.  I see two-weapon defense as something that certainly helps, and probably suits an Assassin better than using a light shield, since you'll probably have two-weapon fighting to go with defense.

And I can definitely see an Avenger and Assassin team working well together. 

But because the Assassin is pretty fragile, I do see them as being even more of a defender ward than the wizard or many controllers are.  Since enemies may want to hurt them even more than the wizard now.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

DarkMasterBR said:


> Just FYI, I twittered mikemearls asking him about the enemy's awareness of the shrouds:
> 
> mearls: @jpjandrade I believe an enemy is not aware of them.




That makes the feat listed in the article pretty useless:

Hidden Insight
Prerequisite: Assassin, assassin’s shroud power
Benefit: Creatures from which you are hidden are
not aware of your shrouds.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

Kobold Avenger said:


> As for their abilties to easily hide and all that, I certainly see use in that in games with a party. Often if you're the one that's hiding, you're the one that's ahead of the rest of the party.  That gives you plenty of time to build up shrouds while the rest of the party moves in.




I've heard of other parties allowing a stealthy character to scout ahead.  None of ours ever have.  Mainly because of this scenario:

Rogue wanders off ahead, stealthily, keeping enough distance between him and the rest of the party that the enemies can't hear the noisy paladin(i.e. 50-200 feet or so).  He gets to a door.  He listens at the door and either rolls low or the enemies aren't making any noise at all and the door muffles any sound they do make.  He doesn't hear any enemies.  He opens the door to scout it for the party.  As soon as he opens it the enemy sees him, since he has no cover.  Initiative is rolled, enemies go first.  Rogue dies when every last enemy attacks him, as there are no other targets they can see.  The party is so far away, the enemies get to attack the rogue a second time before they can get there to help him.

Also this scenario is just as likely:

Enemy managed to roll high enough to spot the rogue as he is stealthing down a hallway.  The rogue doesn't spot them.  The enemy gets the drop on the rogue during a surprise round and drops him in a single round.  The party is so far away, the enemies get to attack the rogue a second time before they can get there to help him.

Since these things have happened so many times, we no longer let the Rogue scout ahead.  He stays in the middle of the party so that when we run into enemies we are all together and the defender is the first thing the enemy sees.


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## Jack99 (Sep 11, 2009)

DarkMasterBR said:


> Just FYI, I twittered mikemearls asking him about the enemy's awareness of the shrouds:
> 
> me: @mikemearls Is an enemy aware of the Assassin's Shrouds?
> 
> ...




Should be pretty clear by the rules in the PDF that they know, unless you have hidden insight.

Edit: Ninjaed by Oakheart. I guess that's what happens when you hit reply and then leave the comp to do other things...


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 11, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Should be pretty clear by the rules in the PDF that they know, unless you have hidden insight.




Actually, it should be clear by the general rule that creatures always know effects (marks, so on) on them.  Since the article doesn't say otherwise, they would know.  The feat just happens to be the specific exception.


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## mearls (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, the feat is necessary to keep the shrouds hidden. Otherwise, the critter knows what's up.


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## Jack99 (Sep 11, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Actually, it should be clear by the general rule that creatures always know effects (marks, so on) on them.  Since the article doesn't say otherwise, they would know.  The feat just happens to be the specific exception.




I thought that was what I said... Apparently not..


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## Jack99 (Sep 11, 2009)

mearls said:


> Yeah, the feat is necessary to keep the shrouds hidden. Otherwise, the critter knows what's up.




Thanks for clarifying. The Assassin definitely looks interesting to play.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 11, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> I've heard of other parties allowing a stealthy character to scout ahead.  None of ours ever have.  Mainly because of this scenario:
> 
> Rogue wanders off ahead, stealthily, keeping enough distance between him and the rest of the party that the enemies can't hear the noisy paladin(i.e. 50-200 feet or so).  He gets to a door.  He listens at the door and either rolls low or the enemies aren't making any noise at all and the door muffles any sound they do make.  He doesn't hear any enemies.  He opens the door to scout it for the party.  As soon as he opens it the enemy sees him, since he has no cover.  Initiative is rolled, enemies go first.  Rogue dies when every last enemy attacks him, as there are no other targets they can see.  The party is so far away, the enemies get to attack the rogue a second time before they can get there to help him.
> 
> ...



In 3.5 its easy... you use the cleric spell death watch... you know whats up with your rogue... in 4e i would say: invent a ritual which does exactly this...

Ki focus sounds interesting and strikes me as the perfect implement for the monk... I also think, ki is better handled this way because i also would not have liked to decide if the ninja (oh sry, assassin) is shadow or ki


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## fuzzlewump (Sep 11, 2009)

My initial impression is that the assassin is strictly weaker than the rogue/ranger.

Less HP and less damage based on at-wills; haven't gone in depth with the encounter/dailies. Sneak attack is easily more damage, combined with a sly flourish or brutal scoundrel attack makes up for not having the baseline +cha bonus that nightstalkers have. With the power from PHB Heroes, combat advantage is as simple as having one ally adjacent to the target, flanking not required. Rangers of course have the power of twin-striking to produce more damage and have their +1d6/8 a round even more reliable than assassins.


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## Prism (Sep 11, 2009)

I love the feel of the assassin. I like the fact its a deviation from what we have had before and to some degree encourages (or at least enables) loan play. Using hidden insight with a crossbow and venom hand sounds ultra cool (I was reading the article willing there to be a feat like this...and there was). I would also allow bluff checks as an alternative to stealth checks for busy street attacks

I love the idea of being to sneak into a room behind an ally using shade form. Great opportunites for roleplaying the buildup to a kill by bribing someone who should be in the building to help you in.

I would say that this class would play somewhat better in a non standard 4e campaign. This is the kind of thing out group is looking for. We would be perfectly happy to help the group's assassin to go off alone to kill the bad guy if it prevented a difficult fight. Saying that I'd guess it plays just fine in a party too


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 11, 2009)

It seems to me that there's a couple of different builds here.  There's definitely one that basically capitalizes on the shroud, which personally I think is the best of them.  The controller-ish shadow/illusion one is pretty neat (especially that wall power), but I can't imagine playing a Striker and not capitalizing on, well, striking.  

The hit-and-run sneaky/invisible one seems interesting, with a little more balance between striking and controlling.  The way I see this working is that the assassin darts around killing minions or tagging minor threats while building up the shroud on a major threat.  I see it as a sort of impending doom scenario, similar to Alien/Aliens... especially given something like a Dragonborn Assassin.

The article doesn't explicitly say, but I'm pretty sure the Ki Focus is like the Monk's Unarmed Attack.  That is, it's basically a way for the assassin to be unarmed and use the implement powers (with enchantment bonus, if applicable).  As DEFCON pointed out, it seems to draw on the same ex-source as the Monk - hence the similarities.  The assassin doesn't _need_ to use the Ki Focus as the implement; they can use a weapon as well.  Seeing as how the Assassin doesn't get an unarmed strike like the Monk, I don't see _why_ you'd want to go unarmed... but it's a possibility.  Perhaps with a Monk multiclass?  Perhaps in a "no weapons" situation?  Otherwise, it seems there for flavor - manipulating shadows with your hands and the like.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 11, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I thought that was what I said... Apparently not..




Doh, sorry! 

I didn't catch the implied part of your post.  I blame it on Friday.  And assassins shrouding my mind.  Yeah, that's it...


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

UngeheuerLich said:


> In 3.5 its easy... you use the cleric spell death watch... you know whats up with your rogue... in 4e i would say: invent a ritual which does exactly this...




Knowing the status of the Rogue was never the issue.  It was preventing him from dying.  If he went up ahead by himself, he'd be dead before we could get to him.


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## Prism (Sep 11, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Knowing the status of the Rogue was never the issue.  It was preventing him from dying.  If he went up ahead by himself, he'd be dead before we could get to him.




Its always difficult but a cautious rogue should be able to stay hidden from most monsters. As soon as the area becomes alerted and they start using active spots rather than passive of course the danger goes up. Also, opening doors is, as you say, a no no. Much better in wide open spaces and cave sytems.

I'd go so far as saying we rarely have a party without some form of loan scout although they only scout ahead when useful to do so


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## Fanaelialae (Sep 11, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> The article doesn't explicitly say, but I'm pretty sure the Ki Focus is like the Monk's Unarmed Attack.  That is, it's basically a way for the assassin to be unarmed and use the implement powers (with enchantment bonus, if applicable).  As DEFCON pointed out, it seems to draw on the same ex-source as the Monk - hence the similarities.  The assassin doesn't _need_ to use the Ki Focus as the implement; they can use a weapon as well.  Seeing as how the Assassin doesn't get an unarmed strike like the Monk, I don't see _why_ you'd want to go unarmed... but it's a possibility.  Perhaps with a Monk multiclass?  Perhaps in a "no weapons" situation?  Otherwise, it seems there for flavor - manipulating shadows with your hands and the like.




This.

"Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves."

That ki focus enables an unarmed and 'helpless' epic assassin to grab a dinner knife and weild it as an epic weapon is pure awesome!


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## Rugger (Sep 11, 2009)

Dear Mike,

Zarak, Half-orcish Assassin (born Zarak Abraham Thagvarmarsch) would like to thank you for the 'shout-out', as 'you kids' put it these days.

I met him on my honeymoon: he currently works with kids on a Carnival cruise-ship in the Mediterranean.  We've stayed Facebook friends ever since.

Apparently Carnival is one of the few places that a midget-half-orc with green skin can find work anymore.

He also says that, "back in HIS day, I had to kill people with nothing more than a knife-shaped hunk of yellow plastic and a funny purple hat, and that was walking uphill both ways in the snow to get to a kill."

I've attached the pic my wife took on our honeymoon. On a side note, the Ogre-King (seen in the pic), died from  congestive heart failure last year.

He was kind of a douche anyways.

-Matt


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## mearls (Sep 11, 2009)

Holy crap, that is the most incredible thing I've seen all week. I need to track down that cruise ship and liberate our iconic, half-orc assassin! Freedom!


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## Rugger (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, it was odd (and thus my expresssion  )

Walking around on a cruise-ship near Italy...popping into the 'kids-zone' arcade and there they were.

Makes me wonder WHERE they came from, and if there's a Warduke out there!?!?

-Matt


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## Rechan (Sep 11, 2009)

I think there's another issue too: Like the monk (who doesn't put out the damage for a striker, as we've seen), the assassin probably plays well in a group where there's another striker. This way the heat isn't on the assassin if there's someone else pumping out the damage and taking heat - an avenger or barbarian. 

Although I feel real bad for a leader in such a group. I'm a leader in a group with only one striker (a barbarian) and keeping HIM up is a challenge.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 11, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I think there's another issue too: Like the monk (who doesn't put out the damage for a striker, as we've seen), the assassin probably plays well in a group where there's another striker. This way the heat isn't on the assassin if there's someone else pumping out the damage and taking heat - an avenger or barbarian.
> 
> Although I feel real bad for a leader in such a group. I'm a leader in a group with only one striker (a barbarian) and keeping HIM up is a challenge.




Hopefully with the Assassin, these problems are ameliorated somewhat by the stealthy nature of the class.  _Shade Form_ is basically an escape tactic, and you can _Shadow Step_ next to an ally.  Many of the utilities provide some form of defensive status (invisible, hidden, concealed, silent, and so on).  I think that the class expects you to be making Stealth checks to be hidden, especially since you're given Stealth as a trained skill.  I'd go so far as to say that if the player _isn't_ taking advantage of all of this, they've misread the mechanics of the class.

That said, I think that Toughness and Durable still will be very common feats for Assassins to take.


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## Spatula (Sep 11, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I am underwhelmed...
> 
> I was hopeing (based on trevor saying that there was more then just powers) that we would have every thing for including this class in a heroic teir game...but we don't
> 
> without ki focus items it is not fully usable, and I really wanted at least the multi class feat, but really the hybrid too...



While the lack of _ki focus_ items is disappointing, it doesn't make the class unusable.  Assassins can use weapons as implements, just like the monk.


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Hopefully with the Assassin, these problems are ameliorated somewhat by the stealthy nature of the class.  _Shade Form_ is basically an escape tactic, and you can _Shadow Step_ next to an ally.  Many of the utilities provide some form of defensive status (invisible, hidden, concealed, silent, and so on).  I think that the class expects you to be making Stealth checks to be hidden, especially since you're given Stealth as a trained skill.  I'd go so far as to say that if the player _isn't_ taking advantage of all of this, they've misread the mechanics of the class.
> 
> That said, I think that Toughness and Durable still will be very common feats for Assassins to take.



Plus the class really goes well with revenants, who have their own bag of "ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alive, stayin' alive" tricks, like Dark Feast and Unnatural Vitality.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 11, 2009)

Spatula said:


> While the lack of _ki focus_ items is disappointing, it doesn't make the class unusable.  Assassins can use weapons as implements, just like the monk.




I musta missed that, what weapons count as implements?




edit:
    Also if anyone can get ahold of mearls again, there are threads saying the shrouds are instead of the normal damager over in the wotc board.
    and if he can clearafy what can and can't go on the ki focus (I know +1,+2 ect) but can I make it a weapon, or an orb enhancment, or a staff...staff of ruin sounds nice.


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## Bold or Stupid (Sep 11, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I musta missed that, what weapons count as implements?




Anything you're proficient with.


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## mearls (Sep 11, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Also if anyone can get ahold of mearls again, there are threads saying the shrouds are instead of the normal damager over in the wotc board.
> and if he can clearafy what can and can't go on the ki focus (I know +1,+2 ect) but can I make it a weapon, or an orb enhancment, or a staff...staff of ruin sounds nice.




Shroud damage is in addition to the attack's normal damage.

I believe that we'll have specific ki foci up over the course of the month. As a hack, I'd suggest putting any weapon property that can be applied to any weapon into the ki focus. That's just a temporary hack until the official rules roll out, but it should work fine as a starting point.


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## coyote6 (Sep 11, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Knowing the status of the Rogue was never the issue.  It was preventing him from dying.  If he went up ahead by himself, he'd be dead before we could get to him.




To paraphrase the fiend, closed doors are the bane of stealth. The key to not getting killed by recon is being smart; you either stop at closed doors and wait for your friends to get close enough to help if there's a fight, or bypass them.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I musta missed that, what weapons count as implements?



Any weapon you are proficient in.



GMforPowergamers said:


> Also if anyone can get ahold of mearls again, there are threads saying the shrouds are instead of the normal damager over in the wotc board.




The reason that discussion is going on is the following text:



> Before you make an attack roll against the target, you
> choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of
> them. If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6
> damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses,
> ...




Because the text says "the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud" instead of "the attack deals an ADDITIONAL 1d6 damager per shroud" there are a lot of people out there taking it literally to mean it replaces the entire damage of the attack instead of adding to it.

There are a bunch of people over there defending the wording and saying, "It's fairly obvious that it is in addition to the normal damage or the ability is really, really horrible.  I think we all agree that's what was intended." who are being shot down by people saying that it doesn't matter what was intended, only what is written.


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## Kinneus (Sep 11, 2009)

Personally, I think it looks like a great class. Perhaps a little bit more high-magic than I would like an assassin to be, but the at-will teleporting, focus on stealth, and roleplay-heavy utilities are simply fantastic (Cat's Trickery? I cannot say 'awesome' loud enough, despite the fact that it'll probably never be used).
I can handle the class being a little weak mechanically because it is simply oozing with flavorful goodness. I don't usually like stealth-types, but I'm honestly tempted by the assassin.


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## Nikosandros (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm really baffled that there are people who can seriously argue that the shroud damage is in place of normal damage... anyways, Mearls has just confirmed that it is additional damage.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

coyote6 said:


> To paraphrase the fiend, closed doors are the bane of stealth. The key to not getting killed by recon is being smart; you either stop at closed doors and wait for your friends to get close enough to help if there's a fight, or bypass them.




Heh.  Yeah.  Unfortunately, in an average dungeon, 95% of all monsters are directly on the other side of closed doors.  Thus, removing any benefit to scouting ahead at all.

It's just any group I've been a part of really takes the mantra of "never split the party" to heart.  That means that any more than 10 feet ahead of the party is too much.


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## lexoanvil (Sep 11, 2009)

can't shade form be used to walk through doors?  says the following
"As a result, you
can assume a shadowy form that allows you to pass
through barriers and evade enemies that you could
not normally avoid.
When you adopt this."


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

lexoanvil said:


> can't shade form be used to walk through doors?




No.  That's what the flavor text says.  I'm guessing it used to provide phasing at some point but it was probably ruled too powerful.  Assassins have a higher level daily utility that does give them phasing, however.


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## swiftshade (Sep 11, 2009)

Mr Mearls,

Could you please elaborate on how implement and focussed expertise feats interact with ki focus, especially when using it to enhance weapon attacks?

Thank you.


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## Piratecat (Sep 11, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> There are a bunch of people over there defending the wording and saying, "It's fairly obvious that it is in addition to the normal damage or the ability is really, really horrible.  I think we all agree that's what was intended." who are being shot down by people saying that it doesn't matter what was intended, only what is written.



I consider the latter to serve double duty as "a list of the people Piratecat shouldn't game with."

On his twitter feed, Mearls mentions "I wonder how long before anyone finds the #dnd nostalgia easter egg in the assassins character class that just went live on DDI?" I have my suspicions -- anyone want to guess?


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> On his twitter feed, Mearls mentions "I wonder how long before anyone finds the #dnd nostalgia easter egg in the assassins character class that just went live on DDI?" I have my suspicions -- anyone want to guess?




I know the answer already as someone on twitter guessed correctly and I saw it when I clicked the link to Mike Mearls' twitter.

It is 



Spoiler



The feat Scions of Zarak Initiate which is named after Zarak the Half-Orc Assassin from back in the 1e days.


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## Nightson (Sep 11, 2009)

Opening the door just a crack and readying an action to slam it shut should there be hostiles makes scouting doors a lot easier.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 11, 2009)

Nightson said:


> Opening the door just a crack and readying an action to slam it shut should there be hostiles makes scouting doors a lot easier.




Keep in mind that you can't ready actions outside of combat.  The one time that this happened in particular, it went like this:

Rogue: I crack open the door slightly, and I peek inside.
DM: You don't see anything. (all of the enemies had heard the combat in the previous room and had taken up positions in the room that couldn't be seen from the doorway)
Rogue: Alright, I open the door and sneak inside.
DM: Ok, you get about 10 feet into the room and then a bunch of gnolls jump out of their hiding spots.  Roll for initiative.

We once had a situation where the Rogue could have spotted them from the door, it went like this:

Rogue: I crack the door open slightly.
DM: You see a bunch of Gnolls in the room.  Roll for initiative as they all all watching the door and see it crack open.
Rogue: But I made a 29 Stealth check!
DM: Great, you made a 29 Stealth check, but the door doesn't get to use your Stealth check.  They see it move.  It's about DC 0 when they are staring at it.
Rogue: Well, then, I close the door and quickly run away.
DM: No problem.  You can do that.  If you beat them in initiative.

It was then followed by a Gnoll opening the door before the Rogue acted and the rest peppering him with arrows.  And the Rogue dying.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Sep 11, 2009)

A few things,

1. A few people are expressing love for a particular power - mine has to be ShadowJack - from name to flavour text to actual result of the power it is brilliant. Just imagine ShadowJacking someone then having a Wizard drop an area effect on you (say with War Wizard Feat) miss you and damage your Jacked enemy twice as a result.

2. I don't know how true this might be but I have a sneaking suspicion that Mike has been reading Steven Erikson's novels as the class reminds me strongly of the flavour of the assassins in Gardens of the Moon (Guild or Claw) with Kalam as an assassin using the Art of the Kill article.

3. An assassin with the Mark of Passage will be a major headache. As will a Paragon Half-Elf that has made is Dilettante power an at will.


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## Rechan (Sep 11, 2009)

What _is_ a ki focus? I mean, what is the rules here? That's the one thing I don't get.

Is it like, an item with a property that hangs around your neck or something and you just squirt its property into whatever attack you're doing? 

I notice no attack powers allow for ranged weapons. 

Shadow Meld: The answer to "The party has to sneak in somewhere".

You know what makes me happy? I checked the "Art of the Kill" article; those don't depend on being a martial class.  Garrot and Poisoner seem perfect for assassins (Well, poisoner; garrot less so mechanically, even though it's fairly appropriate thematically).


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## Campbell (Sep 11, 2009)

Assassin Article said:
			
		

> Assassins focus their shadow energy through a ki
> focus, which is not an object they wield but a reservoir of magical power within themselves. When using a ki focus, an assassin taps into the power of shadow magic and channels it into both implement and weapon attacks.




So it looks like a ki focus is entirely internal to the assassin. It's probably comes from the shadowy reflection of their own spirit that an assassin draws their power from.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 12, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Any weapon you are proficient in.




sorry to be a pain, but I have gone over that and over it...I see where you can enhance a weapon with a ki focus, but not how a weapon is an implement for powers that need one...


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

Campbell said:


> So it looks like a ki focus is entirely internal to the assassin. It's probably comes from the shadowy reflection of their own spirit that an assassin draws their power from.



So then what are the items? Soul legos?


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## Nikosandros (Sep 12, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> sorry to be a pain, but I have gone over that and over it...I see where you can enhance a weapon with a ki focus, but not how a weapon is an implement for powers that need one...






> You can also use a weapon with which you’re proficient as an implement. While wielding the weapon as an implement, the characteristics of the weapon you use —proficiency bonus, damage die, and weapon properties (such as defensive or high crit)— are irrelevant to your implement powers.




I hope this helps...


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## Xris Robin (Sep 12, 2009)

Page 7, Implements and Weapons, paragraph 3, first sentence.  "You can also use a weapon you're proficient with as an implement."

EDIT: ARGH, Ninja'd by Nikosandros.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 12, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> I hope this helps...






Christopher Robin said:


> Page 7, Implements and Weapons, paragraph 3, first sentence.  "You can also use a weapon you're proficient with as an implement."
> 
> EDIT: ARGH, Ninja'd by Nikosandros.




thanks guys, I am eaither blind or dumb...becuse I total missed it three or four times...


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

Ninja'd.

Or would it be assassin'd?


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## Campbell (Sep 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> So then what are the items? Soul legos?




Pretty much from what I can tell. The article mentions that it can be enchanted through ritual magic in much the same way that a monk's body can be.

If I were running a game with an assassin PC I would grant further enhancements to the assassin's Ki Focus at story apropriate times. It would also be very possible for an assassin to draw out an enemy assassin's shadow soul after defeating them.


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

I intend, if I ever get an assassin PC, to use "Ki foci" as artifact/implement like things.

For instance, one Ki Focus would be the Treachery's Noose - an old, rough noose that has hung 13 spies and traitors to the Crown. Merely possessing the Noose allows the Assassin to use the Ki Focus (But he must be strangled into unconsciousness and shed blood on the Noose before claiming it as His).


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

One thing that is a disappointment is that the Art of the Kill technique feats don't have any Assassin atwills in them. But they seem to be the ones that _beg_ for it.


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## Hawke (Sep 12, 2009)

Assassin NPC ideas... I figure take the Rogue template, give them shroud & shade. Maybe setup an at-will with two sets of stats for two different weapons or something to give it that special feeling. Any other ideas? I plan on running a level 10 in Tuesday's game.


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## Hadrian the Builder (Sep 12, 2009)

Quick optimization note:
Here's a great tactic to stack the odds in your favor when you want to use all your shrouds at once- 4 rounds of assassin's shroud followed by Shadow Darts. Shadow darts gives you three attack rolls, and it counts as a hit if any of them hit.


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Assassin NPC ideas... I figure take the Rogue template, give them shroud & shade. Maybe setup an at-will with two sets of stats for two different weapons or something to give it that special feeling.



I'd give them two at-wills, each that do something different, and key it off a weapon.

For instance, a garrot to use the Noose At-Will.


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## Xris Robin (Sep 12, 2009)

Hadrian the Builder said:


> Quick optimization note:
> Here's a great tactic to stack the odds in your favor when you want to use all your shrouds at once- 4 rounds of assassin's shroud followed by Shadow Darts. Shadow darts gives you three attack rolls, and it counts as a hit if any of them hit.



It also does an extra d8 per hit.  So it's 3d8 if all three hit, plus 4d6 from Shroud.  That's pretty good stuff.


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## Cadfan (Sep 12, 2009)

1. The fact that half of your attacks are spell damage instead of weapon damages, and you get significant damage from bonus dice, means that small size assassins aren't at a significant disadvantage.

2. You could very, very easily play the assassin as a completely (or very nearly completely) ranged striker.


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## Rechan (Sep 12, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> 1. The fact that half of your attacks are spell damage instead of weapon damages, and you get significant damage from bonus dice, means that small size assassins aren't at a significant disadvantage.



Since one doesn't really _need_ to use two handed weapons, I think small size is OK anyways.


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## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2009)

*assassin multiclass*

Until we see the assassin multiclass feat, what do people think of
 -- Gain training in Stealth
 -- Gain assassin's shroud power, but once a shroud is invoked, it cannot be used for the rest of the encounter (so if you invoke 3 of your 4, you can only use 1 for the rest of the encounter)

Figured that sounds nice for now since most striker multiclass feats are "you can do extra damage once per encounter" BUT the assassin's shroud is more variable due to the set up rounds. Thought it would be interesting to keep the "you can use some or all of your shrouds" but I'm not sure that's the best balance. Could have it be "you can only invoke shrouds once per encounter" which encourages multiclass assassins to burn off all shrouds rather than being selective. So I don't know.

The other alternative I was considering was lowering the max from 4 to 2, but that might actually have the opposite effect of encouraging the PC to invoke the shroud more often since it takes less time to set up.

Thoughts? 

Personally, I can't wait for this to be in the Character Builder! I get so sucked into the "new shiny" with DDI.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Sep 12, 2009)

Earlier I gave an example of Shadow Jack and after rereading it realise that it specifically states Weapon/Ranged Attacks - not bursts/blasts etc.

Pity - still love the power though and have also thought of a killer combo by 4th level:
Half Elf with Crimson Eye Action, Velvet Blade Trick, and Killers Insight. Could on the very first round of  an encounter could lay 4 shrouds and use them rolling for 2d10 & 3d8 & 4d6 points of damage (Using Crossbow[can't remember the damage dice] with a Ranger Twin Strike, followed by an Action Pointed Shroud Activated Shadow Darts Attack) Add in being a night stalker and for an extra 3 points per attack roll (I am presuming 16 Cha and from reading shadow darts only counts as one attack roll) for an extra 9 damage for a maximum damage of 77 damage.


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## yesnomu (Sep 12, 2009)

kenmarable said:


> Until we see the assassin multiclass feat, what do people think of
> -- Gain training in Stealth
> -- Gain assassin's shroud power, but once a shroud is invoked, it cannot be used for the rest of the encounter (so if you invoke 3 of your 4, you can only use 1 for the rest of the encounter)



I like the idea of letting you use AS twice per encounter. That puts it roughly equal with the Ranger and Rogue MC feats.


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## Klaus (Sep 12, 2009)

kenmarable said:


> Until we see the assassin multiclass feat, what do people think of
> -- Gain training in Stealth
> -- Gain assassin's shroud power, but once a shroud is invoked, it cannot be used for the rest of the encounter (so if you invoke 3 of your 4, you can only use 1 for the rest of the encounter)
> 
> ...



- Yeah, I think "you can place up to two shrouds during an encounter" works fine, specially because, through power-swaps, you could take the other powers that place shrouds.

- Another option is to take on Shade Form once per day.


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## yesnomu (Sep 12, 2009)

Also, cough cough, you didn't see anything.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 12, 2009)

yesnomu said:


> Also, cough cough, you didn't see anything.




Seeing how it doesn't seem to be working, I guess not!  

I'm guessing along with the powers and feats, we get the PPs?


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## kars (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Seeing how it doesn't seem to be working, I guess not!
> 
> I'm guessing along with the powers and feats, we get the PPs?




Snagged it before it was gone! No feats , but four really cool PPs! One sneaky, ghostly, one "shadow weapon which can be augmented", one soul-shard collector and one master poisoner.


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## Campbell (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Seeing how it doesn't seem to be working, I guess not!



It works if your logged into D&D Insider. 



LightPhoenix said:


> I'm guessing along with the powers and feats, we get the PPs?




No feats, but I do see 4 paragon paths.

Obsidian Stalker - Excels at slipping past enemy defenses (Defenders). Can gain phasing in a number of ways.
Shadowblade - Shaper of shadows. Can create a weapon out of shadow energy, gain combat advantage easily, douse light sources, and eventually gains darkvision.
Soul Thief - Stealer of souls shtick. When you drop an enemy you take a piece of their soul which can be expended to lay a shroud down as a free action. Your paragon path powers also use these shards as fuel for secondary effects. Enemies you kill can only be returned to life by a higher level character. 
Venomed Soul - Poison specialist. Can prepare a poison that limits a target's vision, does extra poison damage, or immobilizes a target. This is limited to one attack. It's final attack power does 15 ongoing poison damage with a -5 penalty to the save if the target is shrouded. 

I was pleasantly surprised by how flavorful these paragon paths were.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 12, 2009)

still no items, and no paragon feats...color me disapointed...

How ever the shadow blade seams to me to be an awsome PP, a bit of koul knife frrom 3.5


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## kars (Sep 12, 2009)

If there ever is an Assassin multiclass feat, wouldn't Shadow Blade be a perfect Rogue PP? Always have a throwable, +3, 1d8 light blade and easily getting combat advantage sound good to me...


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 12, 2009)

Campbell said:


> So it looks like a ki focus is entirely internal to the assassin. It's probably comes from the shadowy reflection of their own spirit that an assassin draws their power from.




I wonder if that's going to be the answer to the "enchant the monk's fists" issue with monk.

Brad


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## Cadfan (Sep 12, 2009)

kars said:


> If there ever is an Assassin multiclass feat, wouldn't Shadow Blade be a perfect Rogue PP? Always have a throwable, +3, 1d8 light blade and easily getting combat advantage sound good to me...



Its also great for small sized assassins.  The Shadow Blade is a regular weapon, not a versatile weapon or a two handed weapon, so if I'm remembering the small size rules correctly a halfling can use it one handed.  That gives them equivalent weapon and shield options to a regular sized assassin with a longsword and a light shield.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 12, 2009)

Campbell said:


> It works if your logged into D&D Insider.




Tricky, tricky.    I logged in, and that did the trick.

I'm disappointed there were no feats.  If I had to guess, either we'll get the rest of the feats on Friday, or this is an incomplete version.  It doesn't seem to me like there would only be two paragon feats.

It seems to me like the Venomous Soul PP is treading on the feats in the heroic tier, especially the one that gives poison resistance.  I would guess the Venom Hand Assassin feat would give you an extra poisoned weapon to use, but I question the utility of it.  I could see some utility for something like a Ranger or Monk, who can often attack two different enemies.

This is my personal bias, but I don't like paragon paths that make you keep track of counters.  There's already enough to keep track of.  That there were two of them disappointed me.

I wasn't as impressed with the paragon powers this time around.  There are a couple of interesting ones - _Guild of Shadows_ especially evokes a lot of imagery in my mind.  Still, a lot of them seem... well, subpar.  I see no reason why anyone would take _Shadow Fire_.  I'm having a little more trouble this week seeing why not to specialize in powers that utilize the shroud.  Also, I would have liked to see a couple more powers that let you add a shroud when used.


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## Cadfan (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> I see no reason why anyone would take _Shadow Fire_.



Why not?


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 12, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Why not?




You have to make three attack rolls to get the best damage.  Possible, but not nearly certain.  Why would you _ever_ choose that over the other powers that hit for that much with one attack roll?  Okay, if you wanted to improve your probability to hit, I suppose it might be worth it.  

On further thought, I could possibly see how it would work if you wanted to absolutely hit your shroud target to deal the damage from that.  It works even better if you had another rider like Sneak Attack to maximize the damage.  Even then, _Flurry of Talons_ is better, since it targets Reflex, is non-typed damage, and the non-OA flight is better IMO than invisibility.  I just can't see how it would be worth it.


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## Klaus (Sep 12, 2009)

Shadow Fire causes 1, 2 or 3 [W] + Dex modifier, and turn you invisible until the end of your next turn. It seems a decent enough power. Attack, turn invisible, move towards another foe. On the next round attack while invisible, then move away into cover, roll Stealth check and then become visible (but hidden).


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> You have to make three attack rolls to get the best damage.  Possible, but not nearly certain.  Why would you _ever_ choose that over the other powers that hit for that much with one attack roll?  Okay, if you wanted to improve your probability to hit, I suppose it might be worth it.
> 
> On further thought, I could possibly see how it would work if you wanted to absolutely hit your shroud target to deal the damage from that.  It works even better if you had another rider like Sneak Attack to maximize the damage.  Even then, _Flurry of Talons_ is better, since it targets Reflex, is non-typed damage, and the non-OA flight is better IMO than invisibility.  I just can't see how it would be worth it.




Its a power that you use when your enemy has 3-4 shrouds on it and you want to ensure a hit. Three attack rolls is a good way to not miss.


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## CelticMutt (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> It seems to me like the Venomous Soul PP is treading on the feats in the heroic tier, especially the one that gives poison resistance.  I would guess the Venom Hand Assassin feat would give you an extra poisoned weapon to use, but I question the utility of it.  I could see some utility for something like a Ranger or Monk, who can often attack two different enemies.




I think (hope) that the PP and Venom Hand feats stack, even though it's not mentioned.  It does seem a little pointless otherwise.  Plus, between Heroic and Paragon there's not exactly a lot of poison powers.

Soul Thief is really sweet, though I almost wish it was called Soul Reaver instead of the one Shadowblade power being called that.  

Of course, with Shadowblade, you can make a Revenant Assassin Shadowblade, name him Raziel, and shape his weapon to look like the Dark Reaver .


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## Cadfan (Sep 12, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> You have to make three attack rolls to get the best damage. Possible, but not nearly certain. Why would you _ever_ choose that over the other powers that hit for that much with one attack roll? Okay, if you wanted to improve your probability to hit, I suppose it might be worth it.
> 
> On further thought, I could possibly see how it would work if you wanted to absolutely hit your shroud target to deal the damage from that. It works even better if you had another rider like Sneak Attack to maximize the damage. Even then, _Flurry of Talons_ is better, since it targets Reflex, is non-typed damage, and the non-OA flight is better IMO than invisibility. I just can't see how it would be worth it.



Mathematically, Shadow Fire is better than a regular 3[W]+Dex attack.  It would be even if each attack contributed 1/3 of the total damage, but that's not the case.  Each attack contributes 1[W], but the static modifiers all kick in with at least one hit.  This weights the expected damage heavily in favor of Shadow Fire.

I can break it down, I guess.  If you want the numbers, just read on.

Lets say you attack with a 1d8 weapon, and you have +10 from static modifiers.

If you use a 3[W]+dex attack, your average damage on a hit will be 23.5.  So your expected damage is p*23.5, where p is the probability of a hit.  If you hit 70% of the time, that's 16.45.  If you hit 50% of the time, that's 11.75.

If you use Shadow Fire, your expected damage with one hit is 14.5.  With two its 19.  With three its 23.5.  But your chance of hitting has to be divided out by category.  If you hit 70% of the time, your chance of getting a certain number of hits is,

0 hits: 2.7%
1 hit: 18.9%
2 hits: 44.1%
3 hits: 34.3%

.027*0 + .189*14.5 + .441*19 + .343*23.5 = 19.18

That's a win by about 3 points of damage for Shadow Fire.

If you hit 50% of the time, things change a bit

0 hits: 12.5%
1 hit: 37.5%
2 hits: 37.5%
3 hits: 12.5%

.125*0 + .375*14.5 + .375*19 + .125*23.5 = 15.5

Now its a win by 4 points.  Generally speaking, Shadow Fire starts ahead, and then pulls further ahead the worse your chances of hitting become.


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm curious to see the Assassin multiclass feat, for its use in procuring the Shadowblade PP for the Rogue class. The Shadow Blade doesn't have an enchantment on it, and would use the Assassin's Ki Focus. If other classes are going to make use of this, the multiclass feat needs to include the ability to have a Ki Focus implement. In addition, I wonder if a Ki Focus powered Shadow Blade would return when thrown, like enchanted weapons do. That's probably going to have to be a DM call.


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## CelticMutt (Sep 12, 2009)

I just noticed something odd about the PPs - none of them have a pre-req other than Assassin, despite two of them having powers or features that affect Shade Form.  I wonder if that's an accidental omission, or a hint that the multi-class feat will grant Shade Form?


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 13, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> I just noticed something odd about the PPs - none of them have a pre-req other than Assassin, despite two of them having powers or features that affect Shade Form.  I wonder if that's an accidental omission, or a hint that the multi-class feat will grant Shade Form?




PPs have had features that modified class abilities that a multiclassed character wouldn't get before. In those cases, those PP features simply don't do anything.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 13, 2009)

Cadfan, nice analysis.  That's interesting, if not intuitive.  Accuracy I freely admitted was better, but I did not think damage would be.  Huh.  Well, I stand corrected.

I still maintain, however, that _Flurry of Talons_ is the better tactical option.  If you consider a 1d8 weapon, all else being equal, you have a higher accuracy and untyped damage for _FoT _versus _Shadow Fire_.  However, I am drink at the moment, so you can hold that against me.    However, factoring in the differences in average defenses amongst monsters as calculated earlier by... er, I forget who.  Anyway, factoring those in, and also the probability of a monster with fire resistance, I think _FoT_ wins out.  That may change with weapons with a higher damage type though, and I'm not about to do that math right now.  Verifying yours tired me out.


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## andarilhor (Sep 13, 2009)

On my understanding of ki focus, it is not a specific object or a new implement, it's just a way to say "everything in the assassin hands, including his bare hands, can be used as a implement".

I believe when we see the final version of the monk next year, he also will have the ki focus as implement. That's a simpler way to make this mechanic instead of creating a entirely new weapon category as "monk weapons". The only difference will be where the assassins focus shadow energy in a weapon, monks will focus psionic energy.

I also believe we will see other ex-ki classes with "ki focus" implement as well in the future.


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## Klaus (Sep 13, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Cadfan, nice analysis.  That's interesting, if not intuitive.  Accuracy I freely admitted was better, but I did not think damage would be.  Huh.  Well, I stand corrected.
> 
> I still maintain, however, that _Flurry of Talons_ is the better tactical option.  If you consider a 1d8 weapon, all else being equal, you have a higher accuracy and untyped damage for _FoT _versus _Shadow Fire_.  However, I am drink at the moment, so you can hold that against me.    However, factoring in the differences in average defenses amongst monsters as calculated earlier by... er, I forget who.  Anyway, factoring those in, and also the probability of a monster with fire resistance, I think _FoT_ wins out.  That may change with weapons with a higher damage type though, and I'm not about to do that math right now.  Verifying yours tired me out.



Don't forget that, being fire damage, Shadow Fire can be augmented by fire feats, like Surging Flame, Astral Fire and whatnot.


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## Cadfan (Sep 13, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> Cadfan, nice analysis. That's interesting, if not intuitive. Accuracy I freely admitted was better, but I did not think damage would be. Huh. Well, I stand corrected.
> 
> I still maintain, however, that _Flurry of Talons_ is the better tactical option. If you consider a 1d8 weapon, all else being equal, you have a higher accuracy and untyped damage for _FoT _versus _Shadow Fire_. However, I am drink at the moment, so you can hold that against me.  However, factoring in the differences in average defenses amongst monsters as calculated earlier by... er, I forget who. Anyway, factoring those in, and also the probability of a monster with fire resistance, I think _FoT_ wins out. That may change with weapons with a higher damage type though, and I'm not about to do that math right now. Verifying yours tired me out.



I'm not sure that's the case, but its mostly not a straight mathematical comparison so its hard to be 100% sure.

Flurry of Talons lets you move your speed towards an enemy without provoking OAs, then attack with an implement attack using the three attack system from a lot of the assassin's powers.

Shadow Fire uses the same three attack system, but is a weapon attack versus AC.  If you hit with at least one, you become invisible until the end of your next turn.

Flying towards an enemy without provoking for movement is less great than it seems, because you're already an assassin who can teleport at will.  Becoming invisible until the end of your next turn is very nice, by comparison, since it lets you avoid damage, gain combat advantage, and move without provoking.  I think that's the better suite of bonuses.

I can't say for sure which is the better choice: attacking reflex with an implement attack, or attacking AC with a +3 proficiency weapon.  I suspect that attacking AC is the better choice.

But this isn't all math, so I can't say which is objectively better.


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## Shroomy (Sep 13, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Don't forget that, being fire damage, Shadow Fire can be augmented by fire feats, like Surging Flame, Astral Fire and whatnot.




I also believe that it is the only assassin power that inflicts fire damage, which could be a nice change of pace from your standard psychic, force, cold, and poison damage depending on your campaign.


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## reiphil (Sep 14, 2009)

So using the "hack" about enchanting the Ki, I had a question.



> I believe that we'll have specific ki foci up over the course of the month. As a hack, I'd suggest putting any weapon property that can be applied to any weapon into the ki focus. That's just a temporary hack until the official rules roll out, but it should work fine as a starting point.




Does that mean ANY weapon enchant can be put on a ki?  Or any weapon enchant that can affect ALL weapons?

(Basically can I have a grasping ki, or can I only have ki's such as Magic ki or Battlemaster's Ki)


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## Phaezen (Sep 15, 2009)

reiphil said:


> So using the "hack" about enchanting the Ki, I had a question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My reading is that only unrestricted enchantments until the ki focus part of the article is up.


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## davethegame (Sep 16, 2009)

We did a brief interview with Mearls about the Assassin:
In Depth: 4E Assassin and Q&A with Mike Mearls | Critical Hits

He talks about ki focus a little bit, but I don't know if it answers all the questions asked here.


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## Arcas_Shan (Sep 17, 2009)

davethegame said:


> We did a brief interview with Mearls about the Assassin:
> In Depth: 4E Assassin and Q&A with Mike Mearls | Critical Hits
> 
> He talks about ki focus a little bit, but I don't know if it answers all the questions asked here.




For me it raises a new one. I think that's the second time I read that the epic tier will be released this Friday. But the Editorial Calendar says Monday the 21st. What is it now? Tomorrow  or next monday  ?


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## Shroomy (Sep 19, 2009)

Arcas_Shan said:


> For me it raises a new one. I think that's the second time I read that the epic tier will be released this Friday. But the Editorial Calendar says Monday the 21st. What is it now? Tomorrow  or next monday  ?




Technically, it comes out on Monday, but if you've figured out how to get the paragon article early, then you can do the same thing for the epic article.  Its four pages and contains the assassin's epic powers (many of which are very cool) and an epic destiny.  There are no epic feats, multi-classing feats, or ki foci.

Personally, I'm not too concerned with the lack of epic feats, as many classes didn't get any class specific epic feats until their respective power books came out, but the lack of a MC feat is an obvious mistake.  There are no ki foci, but since an assassin can use magic weapons as implements, this isn't too bad unless you want to take the shadowblade PP, which pretty much requires it if you want your key PP feature to work properly.  

However, I have a sneaking suspcion that ki foci will also be used by monks and that they will appear in the PHB3, meaning that the October PHB3 preview will be the ki foci, which means that the CB will be updated with both the class and its implements.  If my speculations are correct, then I hope WotC announces it sooner rather than later.  That said, I think that WotC should do another article (perhaps an Essentials article) that details the MC feat, adds racial feats for drow, changeling, and shadar-kai, and introduces some epic feats.


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## Nikosandros (Sep 19, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> That said, I think that WotC should do another article (perhaps an Essentials article) that details the MC feat, adds racial feats for drow, changeling, and shadar-kai, and introduces some epic feats.



Paragon feats are also missing.


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## Shroomy (Sep 19, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Paragon feats are also missing.




The paragon feats were in the first article.


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## Jack99 (Sep 19, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> The paragon feats were in the first article.




All two of them!!

I like the assassin class, but only making two feats for a brand new class is poor something. Perhaps class-making should be a word?


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## kars (Sep 19, 2009)

Epic tier is accessible now. No feats, only one epic destiny... 

There seems to be some cool powers though, and several that lets you quickly add shrouds to a target. One 29th level deals damage equal to your bloodied value, haven't seen anything like that before.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 19, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> However, I have a sneaking suspcion that ki foci will also be used by monks and that they will appear in the PHB3, meaning that the October PHB3 preview will be the ki foci, which means that the CB will be updated with both the class and its implements.  If my speculations are correct, then I hope WotC announces it sooner rather than later.  That said, I think that WotC should do another article (perhaps an Essentials article) that details the MC feat, adds racial feats for drow, changeling, and shadar-kai, and introduces some epic feats.




I doubt it.  Mike Mearls replied to a post on the WOTC boards.  He said that there will be a second, followup assassin article that has Ki Focus items in it, as well as Hybrid rules and a 3rd build for Assassin.  The article will come out sometime between now and the time that PHB3 comes out(so, before March) according to Mike.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it'll have a MC feat, the rest of the Paragon Tier feats and the Epic Tier feats and probably some more Heroic Tier feats.

I just feel kind of screwed out of a full class here.  I was waiting for Assassin to come out for some time.  I think that Ki Focus items, a MC feat, at least 2 more Paragon Tier Feats, and at least 2 Epic feats would have been necessary for the class to feel "done".

After that, I would have been perfectly happy to see a followup with a new build, new feats, new powers, and Hybrid rules(they can wait, the finished rules for them aren't even done yet).  As it is now, however, I feel like playing an assassin should really wait for the second article.


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## SkidAce (Sep 19, 2009)

I thought Ki Focus was an internal "focus" "wellspring of power" or somesuch that could be enchanted with the same enchantments as weapons with rituals.

So the assassin sits in the circle of fire, communes with himself or some other ritual trappings etc, and enchants his ki focus with the flameburst weapon property.  Then whatever weapon he happens to use has the flameburst power.  Very discrete, pick up the table knife from the kitchen and pow.

But everything I read here make it sound like an actual item?

/confused


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## Xris Robin (Sep 19, 2009)

Unless you're using a certain magical belt, you can't pick up random items and use them with your ki focus.  It only works with things you're proficient with, and nobody is proficient with improvised weapons.  A lot of people seem to be making this mistake.


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## SkidAce (Sep 20, 2009)

I didn't read it as "picking up items" at all.  I thought it was saying you could enchant your "soul" (a possible example of fluff for ki focus) using a ritual.  Nothing physical at all all.  Thus you couldn't swap it out any easier than a fighter could change their weapon.

Let me go back and read it again.


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## SkidAce (Sep 20, 2009)

A quote from page 7 of the preview, with WotC's indulgence...

"Assasins focus their shadow energy through a ki focus, which is not an object they weild but a reservoir of magical power within themselves."

"You can imbue your ki focus with magic as if it were a physical implement"

So it is a well spring of power within you that you can enchant.

However I do see your point about improvised weapons.  So an assassin could use his ki focus enchantment on any weapon he was profiecient with that he happened across.  But not improvised ones.


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## Arcas_Shan (Sep 20, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Technically, it comes out on Monday, but if you've figured out how to get the paragon article early, then you can do the same thing for the epic article.  Its four pages and contains the assassin's epic powers (many of which are very cool) and an epic destiny.  There are no epic feats, multi-classing feats, or ki foci.




Thanks a lot!

I'm kinda happy about the lack of feats because I don't have any to spare in my build and don't have to cut corners because there's anything necessary I would miss.
However, I hope that you can use Focused Expertise (shadowblade) to get a +3 bonus to implement attacks. Otherwise Shadowblades are screwed with Weapon Expertise (light blades) and Implement Expertise (ki focus).
The nice thing about the makeshift ki focus rules we have now is that you can make the weirdest combinations. My favourite is shadowblade with radiant enchantment.


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## Siberys (Sep 21, 2009)

This feels incomplete, like a rather far-progressed homebrew that is somehow still lacking necessary components.

Ki Focus - No examples. I could easily houserules this, but it's a rather glaring omission.
Multiclassing/Hybrid - Ditto above.
Feats - There are a grand total of 2 Paragon tier feats, and 0 epic.

Rather disappointing, IMO.


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## Klaus (Sep 21, 2009)

For those who say there's a lack of paragon tier feats, look in the PHB 2. The barbarian, for instance, gets 3 paragon feats, and 2 epic ones. It's the standard ammount of class-specific feats.

I admit, I want some info on ki focus and multiclass feats, though.


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## Shroomy (Sep 21, 2009)

Even with the glaring lack of ki foci and multi-class feats, the assassin can hardly be characterized as a homebrew.  IMO, even with the ommissions, its a pretty awesome class and is fully playable (except for the shadowblade PP, that's partially screwed until ki foci are released).


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## Siberys (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm not saying the rules are homebrewy, not at all. What I'm saying is that, if this WERE a homebrew, I'd consider it incomplete and pass on it until it was finished. Which is precisely what I intend to do. It's the incompletion which is homebrewish, not the material itself.

As for feats, just a handful more would've satisfied me. A couple more Paragon and two or three epic would've been golden.


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## Klaus (Sep 21, 2009)

I think what is missing from the feats section are feats that alter/improve each of the Guild Training choices and a couple of the basic powers, like Shade Form and Shadow Step.

For instance, Rogues get Backstabber, Rangers get Lethal Hunter. What can an Assassin take to increase their shroud damage?


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## Gunpowder (Sep 21, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I think what is missing from the feats section are feats that alter/improve each of the Guild Training choices and a couple of the basic powers, like Shade Form and Shadow Step.
> 
> For instance, Rogues get Backstabber, Rangers get Lethal Hunter. What can an Assassin take to increase their shroud damage?




Brutal shroud


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## Phaezen (Sep 21, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I think what is missing from the feats section are feats that alter/improve each of the Guild Training choices and a couple of the basic powers, like Shade Form and Shadow Step.
> 
> For instance, Rogues get Backstabber, Rangers get Lethal Hunter. What can an Assassin take to increase their shroud damage?




Assassins Escape, Brutal Shroud, Killers Insight: These are the feats you are looking for


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## garyh (Sep 22, 2009)

Klaus said:


> For instance, Rogues get Backstabber, Rangers get Lethal Hunter. What can an Assassin take to increase their shroud damage?




The same thing warlocks get to increase their curse damage?

/player unsatisfied with his warlock who keeps bugging his DM to let him convert the character to a sorcerer.


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## Shazman (Sep 22, 2009)

So they are doing the same thing with the assassin that they did with core classes, races, and monsters.  Want the whole thing?  You'll have to wait and pay more for it later.  I know they are a business and want to make a profit, but this sort of naked greed is sickening.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 23, 2009)

Huh? They gave you the class months early as part of DDI. If you want more, you can pay for more (or get it in the character builder).

I see no "evilness" or "greed" or whatever it is you are trying to say.


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## yesnomu (Sep 23, 2009)

Assassin will not be released in any book, incidentally.


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## Shazman (Sep 23, 2009)

The class is not months early. It is a class only offered through DDI, not a preview class like the monk or psion. The assassin class was promised this month. It is not unreasonable to assume that this means the whole class with special class-specific items, the multi-class feat, etc.  So they break a promise and string you along for the rest of the class for who knows when.  Just keep subscribing.  I don't think so.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2009)

Shazman said:


> The assassin class was promised this month. It is not unreasonable to assume that this means the whole class with special class-specific items, the multi-class feat, etc.  So they break a promise and string you along for the rest of the class for who knows when.  Just keep subscribing.  I don't think so.



This just made my day. Some people simply cannot be pleased. Dear Shazam: Don't you think your idea of what is required for a 'class' to be 'complete' is a bit open-ended? Why should it include anything more than what you get in the classes chapter of a PHB?


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## CapnZapp (Sep 23, 2009)

Shazman said:


> So they are doing the same thing with the assassin that they did with core classes, races, and monsters.  Want the whole thing?  You'll have to wait and pay more for it later.  I know they are a business and want to make a profit, but this sort of naked greed is sickening.



Then don't subscribe to DDI until you've heard the whole class' been released. Then, for the low price of a single month, _you'll get it all_.

The only thing sickening here is your lack of perspective.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 23, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> This just made my day. Some people simply cannot be pleased. Dear Shazam: Don't you think your idea of what is required for a 'class' to be 'complete' is a bit open-ended? Why should it include anything more than what you get in the classes chapter of a PHB?




Because also included in that book was magic items usable by all of the classes and multiclass feats for all of those classes.  There isn't an implement or weapon that a class in that book is proficient in that you can't find in the PHB.  If you want to muticlass into any of those classes, you have the rules for it.

I think that if you sit down to create a character and you say, "Alright, I use Ki Focuses for my implements, so I'll just look through the list of Ki Focuses to find the best one for my character, since we're starting at 21st level.  What?  Where's the list of Ki Focuses?" it means the class isn't complete.

Everything that got added to the classes in the PHB after it came out was stuff that is extra and wasn't needed to use the class.

I am a little annoyed because as far as I can tell, the assassin coming in 3 parts was an attempt to use up 3 of the articles in Dragon Magazine.  They probably have a hole in their schedule for a later month and decided to move some of the stuff from this article into another month to fill it.  Probably they'll split that into a Ki Focus article, a Feat article, and a 3rd build article in order to use up three more days of Dragon Magazine as well.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Because also included in that book was magic items usable by all of the classes and multiclass feats for all of those classes.



I understand what you're saying but:

magic items =/= character class

If I told you I was going to give you a screwdriver, would you then complain if I didn't provide you with a toolbox, screws, wall plugs, and a drill?

What is a complete class description? The answer can be found by looking at the PHB:
It's what you find in the classes chapter. It's not what you find in the races, equipment, feats, or rituals chapter.

What you're really asking for is a complete PHB, not a class!
So how about being happy you actually already got a lot more than merely a new class?


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## Shazman (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, since ki focus is their implement, it's a pretty big deal to not have any magical ki foci.  Of course, it's inconsequential compared to the lack of a multi-class feat.  If it's a "complete" class it's not unreasonable to have a hybrid version as well.  If you can not make a character of any level using either the class itself or multiclassing into the class, it is not "complete".


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## Klaus (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, implement-wise they can use any weapon as an implement.

But the lack of a multiclass feat means existing charcaters can't take advantage of the class.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 23, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> What you're really asking for is a complete PHB, not a class!
> So how about being happy you actually already got a lot more than merely a new class?




No, I'm asking for the ability to use the class in a game.  If you can't USE the class, it might as well not be released.  If someone said, "Here's a brand new type of screwdriver.  It works great, you'll love it!"  Then, after you bought it, you found out that it only fit special screws that weren't available anywhere except from the company who made the screwdriver, and they were due to be released in 4-6 months, you'd say the screwdriver was useless until then.

If the PHB didn't contain any equipment section or magic item section and they said "Here's 4th edition.  It had 8 complete classes!" (even though it is TECHNICALLY true) people would complain that the game wasn't complete because you can't actually use it.  Especially if they got a response from WOTC like "Don't worry, all the info you need to play it will come out in around 6 months".

Besides, the class ISN'T complete.  A class isn't complete unless I can go through the character creation process from beginning to end without running into a situation where I can't continue.  In the case of the assassin, my character creation stops precisely when I look at my powers, see I can use implements, decide to pick a Ki Focus and can't find them.  I can't write down the attack bonus or damage for any of my implement based powers.  That's not complete.

I'd like to repeat that I have NO problem with them holding back 80% of the Ki Focuses and only providing the bare minimum to play the class.  I don't even have so much of a problem with their being no multiclass feat(as you can play the class without it), hybrid info isn't even out until PHB3, so I certainly don't expect them to include that.  The ONLY thing actually missing from this article is Ki Focus items.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 23, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Well, implement-wise they can use any weapon as an implement.




Unless you decide to take the Shadowblade PP.  In which case, you want to use your summoned shadowblade as your weapon.  Only, it can't get any enhancement bonus unless you have a Ki Focus.  And without enhancement bonuses at higher levels, you might as well not pick up a dice to attack.


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## Nightson (Sep 24, 2009)

Use existing weapon and implement enchants.

Tada, problem solved, although I'm sure there are people who will still insist it's a problem.


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## Shazman (Sep 24, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> No, I'm asking for the ability to use the class in a game.  If you can't USE the class, it might as well not be released.  If someone said, "Here's a brand new type of screwdriver.  It works great, you'll love it!"  Then, after you bought it, you found out that it only fit special screws that weren't available anywhere except from the company who made the screwdriver, and they were due to be released in 4-6 months, you'd say the screwdriver was useless until then.
> 
> If the PHB didn't contain any equipment section or magic item section and they said "Here's 4th edition.  It had 8 complete classes!" (even though it is TECHNICALLY true) people would complain that the game wasn't complete because you can't actually use it.  Especially if they got a response from WOTC like "Don't worry, all the info you need to play it will come out in around 6 months".
> 
> ...




The lack of ki focus is pretty minor, since you can use a weapon's enhancement bonus with your powers, though a shadowblade still loses out. You can use the class without them. The lack of a multi-classing feat is huge, becuase the character creation process comes to a grinding halt when you cannot make the tiefling fighter/assassin you envisioned because you have no assassin MC feat.


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## Rechan (Sep 24, 2009)

So 1/4th of the Paragon Paths of the class are not usable at this time.

Not a big deal.

The lack of the MC feat means, though, that all the information is available only for full-blown assassins. There's no way to "dabble" with the class, or use it for an existing character.


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## thecasualoblivion (Sep 24, 2009)

Even without a listing of Ki Focuses, I think we can assume the existence of a generic "magic" Ki Focus that gives an enhancement bonus, +1d6 crit and nothing else and is a level 1/6/11+ item. Shadowblade is usable.


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## Arcas_Shan (Sep 24, 2009)

But let's be honest. Compared to others the generic +X enchantment is crap. And sure, as a hack we are allowed to use all the weapon enchantments that go on "any" weapon, but we can't make builds around a certain damage type.

And I'm a bit worried about the character builder (...Yes, it has made me lazy, since it exists I haven't made a character with P&P again. I know, I suck...). What will we get as ki foci on October 6th? Will we get a shadowblade in our inventory if we take the PP? Will we get two if we want to dual-wield them? We'll see....


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## ScorpiusRisk (Sep 24, 2009)

I player rolled one of these for my campaign last Saturday. 8th Level. I was disappointed. 

I think this is going to be a class that you have to play in a very specific way, and be very on top of things, in order to be effective. He was VERY squishy. There's an avenger in my party and they ended up working as a duo for a bit and the assassin seemed very underwhelming.

The player is going to stick with it for now and we'll see if he can get into the swing of things. In the mean time, here's hoping he survives the current adventure. There's 4 waves of invaders left to go.


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## SkidAce (Sep 25, 2009)

Nightson said:


> Use existing weapon and implement enchants.
> 
> Tada, problem solved, although I'm sure there are people who will still insist it's a problem.




That's what I tried to say earlier to no avail.  It says in the article you can enchant the ki focus and its not a physical object.  So if you want a +2 flaming ki focus...do the rituals.

So what are the people saying "there are no ki focus items" looking for?  They are not items.


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## Undrhil (Oct 1, 2009)

Actually, unless someone has posted something stating otherwise, the Assassin won't be in the Character Builder until November 3, since that's when the September Dragon magazine info will be added to the builder and the compendium.  Sad, I know.  I wish it wasn't so, but that's the way it is.  

But that will not stop you from making a fully playable Assassin character before hand the old-fashioned way (pencil and paper!)

My Kenku Assassin appreciates the old-timey feel of the pencil and paper route.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 1, 2009)

Rechan said:


> The lack of the MC feat means, though, that all the information is available only for full-blown assassins. There's no way to "dabble" with the class, or use it for an existing character.




One of my players brought that up for his character, and I explained it away as the assassin guilds being so protective of their secrets, they only take the dedicated, not the dabblers.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 1, 2009)

SkidAce said:


> That's what I tried to say earlier to no avail.  It says in the article you can enchant the ki focus and its not a physical object.  So if you want a +2 flaming ki focus...do the rituals.
> 
> So what are the people saying "there are no ki focus items" looking for?  They are not items.




Because each type of object can be enchanted only with certain types of enchantments.  A Ki Focus is not a weapon, so it doesn't qualify in the rules to have any of those enchantments put on it.  But the rules, it can't be enchanted with anything  at all(since it is not a weapon, not a wand, not a staff, not an orb, and so on and each of those enchantments needs to be put on the appropriate type).

You need a table saying "+1 Magic Ki Focus costs X".  You need a bunch of enchantments that say "This can by put on Ki Focuses".  Otherwise you can't enchant them at all.  Yes, this can be house ruled easily enough by saying "All weapon enchantments can go on Ki Focuses".  However, Mike Mearls said in his post that that was a workaround, not the real rule.  And that sometime in the future, there WOULD be rules on WHICH enchantments go on Ki Focuses.  That would make your character illegal as soon as those rules come out.

And in my case, I complain about it because I play in the RPGA where the rule is that if it isn't in the books it isn't allowed.  Which means, you can't use any type of workaround for months.  You CAN'T use Ki Focuses.


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## Undrhil (Oct 2, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Because each type of object can be enchanted only with certain types of enchantments. A Ki Focus is not a weapon, so it doesn't qualify in the rules to have any of those enchantments put on it. But the rules, it can't be enchanted with anything at all(since it is not a weapon, not a wand, not a staff, not an orb, and so on and each of those enchantments needs to be put on the appropriate type).
> 
> You need a table saying "+1 Magic Ki Focus costs X". You need a bunch of enchantments that say "This can by put on Ki Focuses". Otherwise you can't enchant them at all. Yes, this can be house ruled easily enough by saying "All weapon enchantments can go on Ki Focuses". However, Mike Mearls said in his post that that was a workaround, not the real rule. And that sometime in the future, there WOULD be rules on WHICH enchantments go on Ki Focuses. That would make your character illegal as soon as those rules come out.
> 
> And in my case, I complain about it because I play in the RPGA where the rule is that if it isn't in the books it isn't allowed. Which means, you can't use any type of workaround for months. You CAN'T use Ki Focuses.




OK, but as has been said by many on this thread already: You DON'T NEED to use Ki Focuses in order to enjoy playing the Assassin.  Until Ki Focuses are more fully explained, you can use a weapon you are proficient with as an implement for your powers which require an implement.  There is nothing stopping you from doing this until we find out how to use a Ki Focus.  Problem of legality solved.  You aren't using a undefined Ki Focus, so in the future when they define them, you are free to go through and pick one up or start using it or whatever.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 2, 2009)

Undrhil said:


> OK, but as has been said by many on this thread already: You DON'T NEED to use Ki Focuses in order to enjoy playing the Assassin.  Until Ki Focuses are more fully explained, you can use a weapon you are proficient with as an implement for your powers which require an implement.  There is nothing stopping you from doing this until we find out how to use a Ki Focus.  Problem of legality solved.  You aren't using a undefined Ki Focus, so in the future when they define them, you are free to go through and pick one up or start using it or whatever.




You need Ki Focuses if you want to play an assassin who doesnt use weapons or one who steals weapons once he has got passed the guards.  Both of which are described as valid ways to play an assassin according to the article(and are described as one of the advantages of playing one).

You need them as well if you become a Shadowblade.  Otherwise all your attack rolls will be about 3 lower than they should be for your level(and only gets worse as you go up levels).


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## MrMyth (Oct 2, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> You need Ki Focuses if you want to play an assassin who doesnt use weapons or one who steals weapons once he has got passed the guards. Both of which are described as valid ways to play an assassin according to the article(and are described as one of the advantages of playing one).
> 
> You need them as well if you become a Shadowblade. Otherwise all your attack rolls will be about 3 lower than they should be for your level(and only gets worse as you go up levels).




But honestly - for a home game, one can pretty easily resolve those problems. In the RPGA, the issue will probably be resolved before one can get to Paragon level... and the nature of LFR itself is almost more hindrance to the weaponless Assassin than the lack of Ki Focus.

I think it would be nice to have this resolved, and quickly. I don't think it makes the Assassin 'unplayable' as many have claimed.


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## Undrhil (Oct 2, 2009)

MrMyth said:


> But honestly - for a home game, one can pretty easily resolve those problems. In the RPGA, the issue will probably be resolved before one can get to Paragon level... and the nature of LFR itself is almost more hindrance to the weaponless Assassin than the lack of Ki Focus.
> 
> I think it would be nice to have this resolved, and quickly. I don't think it makes the Assassin 'unplayable' as many have claimed.




Exactly.  I'll be playing a Kenku Assassin starting tonight (Friday) at our LFR game.  I won't let the lack of a ki focus stop me from enjoying the concept.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 2, 2009)

MrMyth said:


> I think it would be nice to have this resolved, and quickly. I don't think it makes the Assassin 'unplayable' as many have claimed.




Oh, I agree.  It isn't completely insurmountable.  It just annoys me that WOTC advertises this big deal about how they are increasing the price of DDI.  But don't worry, they'll make up for it by including way more exclusive DDI content that you can't get anywhere else.  The first two examples of which are a fully playable race and a fully playable class.

But Assassin isn't fully playable.  It's partially playable.  One might even say MOSTLY playable.  But not fully.  And given that we've been paying extra for a couple of months now and the extra benefit we've gotten is a race and 90% of a class in 3 or 4 months now(I don't remember).  At 5 dollars extra a month, I've almost paid for an entire print book.  Those normally contain 5 races, 8 classes, a list of over 50 magic items, 30 or 40 feats, and so on.

I just feel kind of cheated that I'm paying 5 dollars for 90% of the assassin and then 5 dollars more months from now for the other 10%.


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## Jhaelen (Oct 3, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> I just feel kind of cheated that I'm paying 5 dollars for 90% of the assassin and then 5 dollars more months from now for the other 10%.



See, the thing that's ironic to me is this:

If they'd never mentioned Ki-Foci anywhere in the class description it would be '100% playable' and noone could complain it was 'incomplete'. I.e. by providing less, they'd fullfilled your criteria of 'completeness'.

I guess it's a good move they're going to release shorter articles in the future...


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## WalterKovacs (Oct 3, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Oh, I agree. It isn't completely insurmountable. It just annoys me that WOTC advertises this big deal about how they are increasing the price of DDI. But don't worry, they'll make up for it by including way more exclusive DDI content that you can't get anywhere else. The first two examples of which are a fully playable race and a fully playable class.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> I just feel kind of cheated that I'm paying 5 dollars for 90% of the assassin and then 5 dollars more months from now for the other 10%.




However, they didn't say that the extra 5 dollars was going entirely towards these new exclusive things. The introductory price was at the start, when very little was available. It gave people access to be the first to "try out" the character builder ... which included helping to Beta test it and resolve existing problems. Now the Character Builder is up and running and a solid resource. Ditto the Compendium and Monster Builder. From when the introductory price was introduced the value of DDI has increased quite a bit, arguably justifying the 5 dollar increase. The price increase occured _after_ those things were introduced, but introducing it before hand would have been a bad idea. Instead, some people got a preview that cost them a bit of less.

The exclusive features are not meant to make up for the price increase, but are an advertising tool, another feature. Since they are charging more, they might as well include more content.

It is annoying that they left out a key feature for the assassin (and it does seem a little lacking in terms of paragon/epic feats in addition to magic items geared towards it and other things that 'full classes' get in a book, although arguably it isn't until he X Power books that they get the full treatment that includes things like the race/class combination feats and the AVX books for the items that are specifically for the class. However new implement types are ussually introduced with the class tha uses them.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 3, 2009)

Looking at the PHB1, not all classes got paragon tier feats, and only one class (Wizard) gets epic level feats. So, the assassin articles basically give us an assassin on-par with what the PHB1 provided, with the notable exception of ki focuses.

The lack of ki focus enhancements sucks, but it can be circumvented by allowing a ki focus to be enhanced with any weapon enhancement as Mike Mearls suggested.


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## Shazman (Oct 3, 2009)

The Little Raven said:


> Looking at the PHB1, not all classes got paragon tier feats, and only one class (Wizard) gets epic level feats. So, the assassin articles basically give us an assassin on-par with what the PHB1 provided, with the notable exception of ki focuses.
> 
> The lack of ki focus enhancements sucks, but it can be circumvented by allowing a ki focus to be enhanced with any weapon enhancement as Mike Mearls suggested.




Well, every single class to date has a multi-class feat associated with it, except for the assassin.  Not only do we get to pay for most of the class now, and the rest of it later, but we get to wait a month longer than usual for it to be added to the character builder.  Let's face it.  We are being taken.  If they aren't giving up a whole class when they say they will, they are effectively doubling the price of the class.  I say forget the assassin and all other "exclusive" DDI content.


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## Riley (Oct 3, 2009)

Shazman said:


> Let's face it.  We are being taken.




Yes, but they're taking us to such a very beautiful place.  I like the Assassin better than any of the other classes they've introduced since PHB1.  It really shows off the potential for creating truly unique classes in 4e.

If it takes another month, it'll be worth an extra $5 to get the details right.


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## SkidAce (Oct 4, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Because each type of object can be enchanted only with certain types of enchantments.
> 
> And in my case, I complain about it because I play in the RPGA where the rule is that if it isn't in the books it isn't allowed.  Which means, you can't use any type of workaround for months.  You CAN'T use Ki Focuses.




I see your point now.  Thank you.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 4, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> If they'd never mentioned Ki-Foci anywhere in the class description it would be '100% playable' and noone could complain it was 'incomplete'. I.e. by providing less, they'd fullfilled your criteria of 'completeness'.




But the reason they didn't exclude that from the class is because it is a significant part of the class.  There are two builds of the class: The weapon using build who uses mostly melee attacks and the implement using build who uses ranged attacks through his Ki Focus.  Optionally, the second build can use a weapon as an implement.  But the way it reads to me is that the class was build along those two lines.  And despite being able to play both halves of the class with weapons, it feels incomplete.


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## Shazman (Oct 4, 2009)

The lack of ki focus is troubling and is incomplete, but at least you can play an assassin that just uses weapons, even magic weapons. Try to play a rogue that multiclasses into assassin.  You can't.  Want to play a ranger with the obsidian stalker PP?  Too bad. You have to subscribe for several more  months for that, and you still may not get it, because I never read about Mearls saying anything about an assassin MC feat yet. Personally, I don't really like the direction they took with the assassin anyway. I would have preferred a less supernatural assassin with a ranged weapon sniper build and a more melee focused build.  Keep the assassin shroud and give them lots of powers that do ongoing poison damage and you would have a decent class that is different enough from the rogue.   I really don't like the shadowcaster/shadowdancer with a watered down version of death attack that they decided to go with.


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## Rechan (Oct 5, 2009)

From this month's Ampersand article:


> December follows right on the heels of that article with a follow-up to the release of the assassin, detailing new feats, powers, and ki focus items to expand the options for assassin characters


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## Phaezen (Oct 5, 2009)

Been looking at the Channel Divinity: Raven Queen article, and the Raven Knight Epic Destiny is a nice fit for the assassin, bonuses to movement, teleport and the Dark Scythe Utility power are awesome.


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## Phaezen (Oct 5, 2009)

Just a question for those who have tried the class out so far, did you also find it worthwhile to attack smaller monsters while building up the shrouds on an elite and then ganking the elite when you had built up 3 or 4?


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> From this month's Ampersand article:




So we have to wait until maybe Feburary to have the rest of the assassin added to the character builder, and it still may be lacking the multiclass feat?  Yep, I'm done with this "exclusive" DDI contnet.  If they want to  unneccessarily spread out one class over several months just to bilk their customers out of extra money, they can keep their "exclusisve" class.


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## filthgrinder (Oct 6, 2009)

Shazman said:


> So we have to wait until maybe Feburary to have the rest of the assassin added to the character builder, and it still may be lacking the multiclass feat?  Yep, I'm done with this "exclusive" DDI contnet.  If they want to  unneccessarily spread out one class over several months just to bilk their customers out of extra money, they can keep their "exclusisve" class.




Excellent! I assume you'll be done with bitching about it as well, since honestly, I'm tired of reading it. We GET IT, you are upset. Some people actually want to see some feedback about the class and hear about how it plays without see endless posts repeating the same points.

That is what I'm mostly interested in, hearing from people who have played it and what they think about it, how the class compares to others strikers.


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## awesomeocalypse (Oct 6, 2009)

I have to say its very impressive how they've managed to build a class that effectively functions the way lurker monsters do, and have it actually work. Lurkers are a blast to use as a DM with prep, but very tricky without, and they always struck me as the one monster type for which there could be no pc analogy. Guess they proved me wrong.


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## Kishin (Oct 6, 2009)

Shazman said:


> So we have to wait until maybe Feburary to have the rest of the assassin added to the character builder, and it still may be lacking the multiclass feat?  Yep, I'm done with this "exclusive" DDI contnet.  If they want to  unneccessarily spread out one class over several months just to bilk their customers out of extra money, they can keep their "exclusisve" class.




Think of the December article the same as you would the 'X Power' books expansion to the classes, and maybe you'll see.  Was the Ranger incomplete before Martial Power came out? 

Of course, you could always subscribe for the one month after the final leg of Assassin stuff is released, and then you wouldn't be 'getting bilked'. 

Or, if you're paying for a DDI sub the whole time as it is, you're getting it anyway?

I really don't see the issue. The class is still playable. If you're really that concerned about a multiclass feat, MAKE ONE UP. 4e has some of the most transparent, easy to grok mechanical structure there is: It would take you all of 30 seconds. Arguably about the same length it will take you to type the inevitable 'But I shouldn;t have to make stuff up, that's why I am paying Wizards!' retort I see forthcoming.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 6, 2009)

awesomeocalypse said:


> I have to say its very impressive how they've managed to build a class that effectively functions the way lurker monsters do, and have it actually work. Lurkers are a blast to use as a DM with prep, but very tricky without, and they always struck me as the one monster type for which there could be no pc analogy. Guess they proved me wrong.



Good observation. I wonder if one couldn't go even further. 

Imagine a feature where you spend _standard actions_ against enemies to gain more damage. You remain hidden the full time, and then, after having spend a few actions, you launch a decisive, destructive blow.

The 3 attack rolls/1 Hit powers and the Shrouds might be cominbined to achieve this purpose.


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2009)

The main issue I have is that the assassin class was promised to be available in September. Not most of the class in September, ki foci and more feats later, and finally the multiclass feat next spring.  It feels like a sleazy way to string your customers along, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised because this type of behavior is par for the course with WotC.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 6, 2009)

awesomeocalypse said:


> I have to say its very impressive how they've managed to build a class that effectively functions the way lurker monsters do, and have it actually work. Lurkers are a blast to use as a DM with prep, but very tricky without, and they always struck me as the one monster type for which there could be no pc analogy. Guess they proved me wrong.




It SHOULD work this way, I admit.  But so far my reading of it, is that it is still more effective to attack every round while building up shrouds than it is to wait in the shadows for the right time to strike.  If you HAD to use your shrouds up every time you attacked and you gained exponential damage with each shroud there would be much more reason to hide in the shadows, spend 4 rounds building up shrouds then make one huge attack.

So far, I've only seen an assassin played for one 5 hour long session.  The person who played it put a shroud on and used it every round.  He didn't even try to build them up.  I admit, the mathematical reason to do so is VERY small.


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## MrAlgothi (Oct 6, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> It SHOULD work this way, I admit.  But so far my reading of it, is that it is still more effective to attack every round while building up shrouds than it is to wait in the shadows for the right time to strike.




Aside from trying to get the first round surprise shot, that's true.  However I am not sure a class that acted every 4 or so rounds would be entirely too fun to play (even if you did absolutely massive damage on those rounds).  Most combats in the epic game I play in do not last more then 6 or so turns.  So a class that played as you described would mean 1 or 2 turns of activity while the rest were spent trying not to be seen or hit.  Sounds rather boring to me.  The current setup means you are rewarded for scouting and setting up ambushes, but are not sitting around for most of the combat trying to set up that one huge hit (which may or may not happen).



> December follows right on the heels of that article with a follow-up to the release of the assassin, detailing new feats, powers, and ki focus items to expand the options for assassin characters



A fairly long wait, but I guess that gives us, the community, some time to play the class and give our experiences and/or make suggestions on what the class needs feat/power wise.


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## Ceramicwombat (Oct 6, 2009)

It looks like WoTC listened to the complaints about the lack of a Ki Focus writeup and a multiclass feats. There are generic Ki Focuses and a multiclass feat (Shadow Initiate) as part of the Character Builder update. Neat.


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2009)

If this is indeed true, then I take back all the complaints I stated in this thread.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 6, 2009)

Shazman said:


> If this is indeed true, then I take back all the complaints I stated in this thread.




They are in the compendium. I'm looking at them right now. The multi-class is pretty nice. The Ki Focus is just the +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6 basic version.


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2009)

Shazman said:


> So we have to wait until maybe Feburary to have the rest of the assassin added to the character builder, and it still may be lacking the multiclass feat?  Yep, I'm done with this "exclusive" DDI contnet.  If they want to  unneccessarily spread out one class over several months just to bilk their customers out of extra money, they can keep their "exclusisve" class.




You play 4e? Seriously?


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## MrAlgothi (Oct 6, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> They are in the compendium. I'm looking at them right now. The multi-class is pretty nice. The Ki Focus is just the +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6 basic version.




The Multi-class feat is good, if not exactly great.  Its still bit behind the Ranger Multi-class feat in power.  However it gets much better with power swap feats for powers that deal with the Shroud mechanic.  Overall I think its a nice balance.

The inclusion of basic ki focus makes the shadowblade PP playable in LFR and RPGA settings.   Thank you for listening to us, WOTC.  Well done.


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2009)

I am currently DMing Pathfinder.  I have been grudgingly playing LFR, because it is the only way I have been able to play any RPG with any frequency at all this year. It's not my preferred system, but it's passable if you can train yourself to ignore the overtly gamist elements prevalent in the system.  It also helps to hae good people to game with. Soon, I should be able to actually play Pathfinder, and LFR will most likely be put aside.


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2009)

Shazman said:


> I am currently DMing Pathfinder.  I have been grudgingly playing LFR, because it is the only way I have been able to play any RPG with any frequency at all this year. It's not my preferred system, but it's passable if you can train yourself to ignore the overtly gamist elements prevalent in the system.  It also helps to hae good people to game with. Soon, I should be able to actually play Pathfinder, and LFR will most likely be put aside.




That's good. Having to play a system you do not enjoy is no fun.


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## Phaezen (Oct 7, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> So far, I've only seen an assassin played for one 5 hour long session.  The person who played it put a shroud on and used it every round.  He didn't even try to build them up.  I admit, the mathematical reason to do so is VERY small.




From my experience playing the assassin (granted only for one session so far) I had a lot of fun building up shrouds on an elite or soloe while attacking smaller monsters and then teleporting in to deliver a big attack when I had built up 3 or 4 shrouds.  Even without the shroud damage, the damage output (nightstalker, with the poison feats) was decent against normal foes and the extra 3 or 4d6's came in handy against the elites.


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## SSquirrel (Oct 7, 2009)

mach1.9pants said:


> More needed for the article but I like the flavour of the class.
> Especially 'Shadow Step' at will teleport, ZOMFG! That is instant flanking, just add rogue hybrid!




Shadow Step to teleport behind people?  Someone in development likes their Sublety spec Rogue in WoW   Which I have no problem with as it is great flavor.

EDIT:Also building up shrouds so you can do a big hit?  Yep, Rogue combo points in action.  It won't do them any favors with the camp that hates them pulling ideas from MMOs, but I enjoy both so I don't care.  Just interesting.  If this has all been mentioned that's fine, I haven't read the entire thread


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## Rechan (Oct 7, 2009)

A palyer wants to play an assassin in my game. I look forward to seeing it in play.


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## The Little Raven (Oct 7, 2009)

Phaezen said:


> From my experience playing the assassin (granted only for one session so far) I had a lot of fun building up shrouds on an elite or soloe while attacking smaller monsters and then teleporting in to deliver a big attack when I had built up 3 or 4 shrouds.  Even without the shroud damage, the damage output (nightstalker, with the poison feats) was decent against normal foes and the extra 3 or 4d6's came in handy against the elites.




One of my players was playing an assassin in a one-shot the other night, and when she realized how the shroud acted as "Miss:" damage when stacked on a target, it changed how she used the shroud (normally, she was just throwing one shroud, then using it).


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## Direach (Oct 15, 2009)

More than magic ki focuses (largely irrelevant if you're using magic weapons IMO), I am interested to see something done to make a greater variety of weapons viable and desirable for assassins. Right now the fullblade seems to be the weapon of choice; by some estimations, it is the ONLY choice. It seems absurd to me that the most ideal weapon for a stealthy assassin is a six foot long greatsword. I very much hope to see either a dual wield build for assassins, or feats that reward players who opt to use weapons smaller than a lamppost.

We're starting a new 4E game tomorrow night; my assassin is sporting a subtle rapier and a distance dagger. Fullblades might be the "best" choice, but this isn't WoW, and to me 'cool' is more important than 'optimal'.


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## jevansfp (Oct 26, 2009)

*Playing an Assassin*

I just played my first game with a drow revenant assassin.  I took the Drow Soul feat at first level, which allowed me to use Darkfire and Cloud of Darkness, in addition to the cool revenant features like Dark Reaping and Unnatural Vitality and the stat synergy. 

I found that the drow features synced well with the feel of the assassin.  Several times during the adventure, I used Cloud of Darkness to obscure myself for that round and the next, then before it dissipated, I used Shade Form and the subsequent Stealth check to stay hidden another round.

Once, the DM used a Doppleganger that looked like me to confound the other players with the "which one do we attack" gag.  I could've called out something that happened earlier that only the PCs in my party would know (not the doppleganger), but instead I light him up with Darkfire, went into Shade Form and my party wailed on him.

I also liked staying away from the big melee bruiser while the fighter marked him and softened up.  I stayed at the edges of the battle, taking out his comrades, but dropping my shrouds on him.  Then when I had 3 or 4 on him, I teleported next to him, nailed him with a Shadow Storm while invoking my shrouds. Very nice.


For now I'm using a longsword and a shield for the extra proficiency bonus and AC, but I'm open to new weapon combos


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## Garthanos (Oct 26, 2009)

Direach said:


> We're starting a new 4E game tomorrow night; my assassin is sporting a subtle rapier and a distance dagger. Fullblades might be the "best" choice, but this isn't WoW, and to me 'cool' is more important than 'optimal'.




A bastard sword can be visualized as katana and a full blade as one of those japanese mythic phallic symbol soul blade things that are bigger the more powerful you are 

That said love your weapons of choice.


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