# How would you cost a permanent Death Ward item?



## shilsen (Jul 29, 2005)

As the title says, what should be the cost for an item that provides a permanent, use-activated Death Ward effect? Going by the guideline formulae in the DMG, it comes to:

4 (Spell lvl) x 7 (Caster lvl) x 2,000 (Use-activated) x 2 (it's a 1 min/lvl spell) = 112,000 gp

Does that sound about right?

The reason i'm asking is because of the Soulfire armor property, which I believe has the above effect and is from BoED and is considered +4 for pricing purposes. While I'm away on summer break, one of the other members of my group (Rackhir, here on ENWorld) has been running an 18th lvl game allowing material from many different sources, and half the PCs are walking around in Soulfire armor. I opined that a +4 pricing is too cheap and it would be better priced as a permanent Death Ward item. 

What do you think?


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## Infiniti2000 (Jul 29, 2005)

I personally feel that death ward is overpowered, so that biases my opinion on the cost of Soulfire and the cost of permanent death ward heavily in the 'against' column.  +4 is cheap, costing only 64,000 at most.  It's even cheaper considering that you could enhance your armor and shield separately, greatly reducing the cost (in a manner of speaking).


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## Goolpsy (Jul 29, 2005)

remember that 4 is alot in the higher levels... but i do think it should be a +5 though


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## shilsen (Jul 30, 2005)

Thanks for the opinions. Anyone else care to chime in?


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 30, 2005)

I wouldn't allow it at any cost, personally.  The fear of sudden death is about the only thing that keeps very high-level characters in check.  Even if I did allow it, I wouldn't let it be a commodity item that every player could get.  

FWIW, I'd feel the same way about letting everyone have a permanent mind-blank, or True-Sight, or similar items that would protect against whole classes of spells.


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## FireLance (Jul 30, 2005)

I think it depends very much on the preferences of your group.




			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> The fear of sudden death is about the only thing that keeps very high-level characters in check.  Even if I did allow it, I wouldn't let it be a commodity item that every player could get.




See, I have a very different view. To me, sudden death is no fun. The idea that a character could die as a result of a single bad roll does not appeal to me. Thus, I'd be quite happy to give my players fairly cheap access to _death ward_ items since it's going to result in a more fun game for me and my players.

If death effects worked differently in the game, e.g. they are not instantaneous effects, but cause Constitution drain at the rate of 1d6 per round until the character dies or the effect is negated, then I might make _death ward_ items more expensive.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Jul 30, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> IThus, I'd be quite happy to give my players fairly cheap access to _death ward_ items since it's going to result in a more fun game for me and my players.




Except that the PCs will have an unfair advantage over their enemies. Unless everybody is walking around in soulfire armour. And if that's the case, you might as well do away with death attacks altogether, IMHO.


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## Infiniti2000 (Jul 30, 2005)

Right.  Also, notice that he didn't say that sudden death was fun, but the *fear of* sudden death is fun.  There's a subtle yet important distinction.  It's also probably a little too narrow, so don't take it too strictly.  The meaning of it should still be clear, however: _if the players don't fear for their characters, they will not have fun_.  Basically, if you don't need combat in your games, that's fine, but if you do have it then there should be reasonable chances for injury and death.  There has to be consequences to some actions.


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## FireLance (Jul 30, 2005)

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> Except that the PCs will have an unfair advantage over their enemies.



I use action points, so the PCs already have an unfair advantage over their enemies. 



			
				Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> Unless everybody is walking around in soulfire armour. And if that's the case, you might as well do away with death attacks altogether, IMHO.





			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> Also, notice that he didn't say that sudden death was fun, but the fear of sudden death is fun. There's a subtle yet important distinction. It's also probably a little too narrow, so don't take it too strictly. The meaning of it should still be clear, however: if the players don't fear for their characters, they will not have fun. Basically, if you don't need combat in your games, that's fine, but if you do have it then there should be reasonable chances for injury and death. There has to be consequences to some actions.



Here's my subtle yet important distinction: The fear of death is fun, but it doesn't have to be the fear of sudden death. Again, it depends on the tone you want to achieve in your games. Impending death creates interesting choices during combat - spend your action to try and save your friend, or use it to attack the enemy. Sudden death can increase tension (will I die this round or not), but removes the need for such choices when it occurs - your friend is dead anyway, and spending one minute to raise or resurrect him is usually impractical. In my group, anyway, hit point loss is enough to create a fun state of tension.


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## Staffan (Jul 30, 2005)

There is a limited death ward armor ability in Player's Guide to Faerûn. I don't have it here, but IIRC it just triggers a death ward the first time in a day you're exposed to something that would make it relevant. I'll see about checking it up when I get home.


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## Rackhir (Jul 30, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I wouldn't allow it at any cost, personally.  The fear of sudden death is about the only thing that keeps very high-level characters in check.  Even if I did allow it, I wouldn't let it be a commodity item that every player could get.
> 
> FWIW, I'd feel the same way about letting everyone have a permanent mind-blank, or True-Sight, or similar items that would protect against whole classes of spells.




Well it wasn't quick, but 3 greater stone golems and a maralith did effectively manage to take down the Frenzied Berzerker with the aformentioned armor. So there ARE other ways to keep the far of death in PCs, even if it isn't quite as quick.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd be more concerned with it pretty much neutering undead in the game.


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## shilsen (Jul 31, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> There is a limited death ward armor ability in Player's Guide to Faerûn. I don't have it here, but IIRC it just triggers a death ward the first time in a day you're exposed to something that would make it relevant. I'll see about checking it up when I get home.



 Interesting. I'd definitely like to know what it costs.



> I'd be more concerned with it pretty much neutering undead in the game.




That's definitely one of my concerns about the armor.


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## Staffan (Jul 31, 2005)

Found it:
*Death Ward*: This armor's magic confers a _death ward_ effect on the wearer once per day for a duration of 7 minutes. The protection automatically takes effect the first time the wearer is exposed to a negative energy or death effect in the course of a day.
This armor property replaces both the _death ward_ and the _negative energy protection_ special abilities described in _Magic of Faerûn_.
Moderate necromancy; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms & Armor, _death ward_; Price: +2 bonus.


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## shilsen (Jul 31, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Found it:
> *Death Ward*: This armor's magic confers a _death ward_ effect on the wearer once per day for a duration of 7 minutes. The protection automatically takes effect the first time the wearer is exposed to a negative energy or death effect in the course of a day.
> This armor property replaces both the _death ward_ and the _negative energy protection_ special abilities described in _Magic of Faerûn_.
> Moderate necromancy; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms & Armor, _death ward_; Price: +2 bonus.



 Thanks a lot, Staffan. 

If that has a +2 cost, which seems appropriate to me, I'd say that +4 for an always-on version like the Soulfire armor is a bit cheap.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 31, 2005)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot, Staffan.
> 
> If that has a +2 cost, which seems appropriate to me, I'd say that +4 for an always-on version like the Soulfire armor is a bit cheap.



The Death Ward special property basically gives you an automatic _Death Ward_ spell for one combat per day (I can't imagine a combat lasting more than 42 rounds   ).  Unless your party has 4 or more combats each day, +4 doesn't seem particularly cheap to me.  +1 Death Ward armor would be ~9,000gp, while +1 Soulfire armor is ~25,000gp.  Just about three times as expensive, for on average three times the uses per day.  If you have fewer than three combats a day, Soulfire armor is actually more costly than the Death Ward armor, for what you're getting.

This all assumes, of course, that you believe (as I believe you said you did,) that the +2 Death Ward price tag is appropriate.


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## Antoine (Jul 31, 2005)

The _ring of freedom of movement_ sets a troubling example :
40 k for an everlasting 4th-level cleric spell (with a basic duration of 10 min./level).

Then should a _ring of death ward_ cost a mere 53-some thousand gp ?


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## Obscure (Jul 31, 2005)

Complete Arcane also has Death Ward armor which protects the wearer from one death effect per day (including energy drain and inflict spells).  Cost is +1 effective bonus.  Looks balanced to me.  Permanent Death Ward seems like a bad idea.


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