# RPGNow Sales Numbers Update



## philreed (Feb 4, 2003)

I'm showing mine in the hopes that others will show me theirs.

These are RPGNow sales only.

101 Arcane Spell Components -- 139
101 Mundane Treasures -- 277
101 Spellbooks -- 270
Construct Mechanus -- 79
In the Depths of BlackWater -- 33

What I'm learning is that the more generic I make a PDF, the more copies it sells. This should have been something I knew from the start (hell, it's obvious when I actually think about it).

The Construct Mechanus numbers have been disappointing. Again, on thinking about it, I can see where something this odd would appeal to a very small audience. I had fun working on it but as of now I consider it a failed experiment.

BlackWater actually did better than I expected. The idea behind it was a test to see how well a printed product would do as a PDF. If it was a better product from a know author (or if I had added 10,000 or so words of my own) it probably would have done much better.


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## philreed (Feb 4, 2003)

*No other numbers?*

None at all?


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## tensen (Feb 4, 2003)

City Guide: Coffer of Coins - 152

I imagine Death and In the Saddle are around that number.. but I don't know exactly.


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## philreed (Feb 4, 2003)

*Thanks for playing!*

Too bad we don't have any prizes to offer.


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## malladin (Feb 4, 2003)

Sorry Phil, only just clocked this one...


Forgotten Heroes: Paladin          168
Academy Handbook: St John's      58
Unearthed Adventurers (Vol I)      35 (only out last week, though)


Interestingly, neither of our other two products is doing as well as Paladin.  Not entirely sure why - I suspect it might be that Paladin got 4 or 5 reviews in its first week, whereas St John's still only has two and UA has yet to figure, but maybe its that Paladins are a damn sight more interesting than Abjurers in most people's eyes .

Anyway, I'd certainly be interested in any thoughts (provided I don't get too badly slated .

Cheerio,

Ben

PS.  Phil did you get my emails back in Jan, only I've not recieved any response...


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## philreed (Feb 4, 2003)

*Got one and responded.*

I'll try e-mailing you right now from a different address.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 4, 2003)

malladin said:
			
		

> *Interestingly, neither of our other two products is doing as well as Paladin.  Not entirely sure why - I suspect it might be that Paladin got 4 or 5 reviews in its first week, whereas St John's still only has two and UA has yet to figure, but maybe its that Paladins are a damn sight more interesting than Abjurers in most people's eyes .*



Well, my Enchanter's are up to 159. I can't wait to see what release #2 does for sales of release #1, i.e. does that "also by this publisher" stuff actually help sales?

Paladins are probably a lot more frequent in games than Abjurers. You should also note that the names vary in descriptiveness. One says it's about paladins the other mentions an academy and a saint, is it about clerics?

Reviews help generate sales. I spread them out over the months so that I have sales spurts through the book's lifetime. (I may send Psion or Simon a comp copy of Enchantment someday for review just to get my 5th review and a spot on the topXX boards at the review site).


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## Krug (Feb 4, 2003)

Revised editions seem to be popular too. Now Joe you KNOW your book could use a few extra illustrations... 

Malladin; you might want to send out review copies to get your books more exposure. Perhaps those who reviewed your FH: Paladin?


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## philreed (Feb 5, 2003)

*I think you'll see an increase.*



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *Well, my Enchanter's are up to 159. I can't wait to see what release #2 does for sales of release #1, i.e. does that "also by this publisher" stuff actually help sales? *




Each time I've released a new PDF I've seen sales of earlier ones spike. Not that I've done enough of them to have any reliable data . . .


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## HellHound (Feb 5, 2003)

We DEFINITELY see a spike in product sales across the board when a new product is released.

And our revised editions HAVE been selling particularly well. Although I think the revised sales of Everyone Else are merely because the product itself made it back onto the front page of RPGnow. This is a product that sells itself it seems, quite popular as long as people see it on the front page.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 5, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *And our revised editions HAVE been selling particularly well. Although I think the revised sales of Everyone Else are merely because the product itself made it back onto the front page of RPGnow. This is a product that sells itself it seems, quite popular as long as people see it on the front page. *



I credit the front page with most of my initial sales. Falling off the front page at RPGNow must cause an immediate dip in sales. Once a product leaves the page and falls off the top ten very few sales occur.

The day James added the Microtactix back catalog to RPGNow I felt sorry for everybody who had new books out at that time.


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## Brian K. Moseley (Feb 5, 2003)

philreed said:
			
		

> *What I'm learning is that the more generic I make a PDF, the more copies it sells. This should have been something I knew from the start (hell, it's obvious when I actually think about it).
> *




Good observation, Phil.  I agree with you.  My four floor plan sourcebooks (Inns & Taverns, Castles & Keeps, Temples & Shrines, and Mansions & Manors)  were published months before my latest three campaign series (Visira, City of Sorrows, Maelstrom Campaign Setting Worldbook and Pantheon), but the floor plan books have maintained sales.  Sales for the campaign series is sluggish, and in comparison is a small percentage of the floor plans' total sales.

My conclusion is that the campaign series is much more specific, and simply doesn't have the initial title appeal that the more generalized "floor plans" has.  Ironic, as I believe Visira to be my best work yet.  I suspect most consumers' initial reaction is that they do not need "another campaign world" or "another city".

Sales for the month of January:

Inns & Taverns: 26
Castles & Keeps: 26
Temples & Shrines: 21
Mansions & Manors: 20
Visira: City of Sorrows: 8
Maelstrom Campaign Setting: Worldbook:10
Maelstrom Campaign Setting: Pantheon: 3

Sales of the campaign series have been disappointing.  I believe the more specialized the product, the smaller the number of persons that will be interested in it.  Advertising is always helpful though.




			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *I credit the front page with most of my initial sales. Falling off the front page at RPGNow must cause an immediate dip in sales. Once a product leaves the page and falls off the top ten very few sales occur. *




I agree with you completely, Joe. As the sheer volume of pdf products continues to grow, I suspect increasing numbers of RPGNow visitors glance at the front page much as many people look at the newspaper headlines.  If they see something that interests them, they'll delve deeper.  For the majority, content not on the front page goes unnoticed.


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## philreed (Feb 5, 2003)

*Ways to keep your PDF in front of the customer . . .*

Revise/Expand -- This one's already been mentioned. When Christopher Shy and I revised and expanded 101 Mundane Treasures I saw a large spike in sales on the product. 101 Arcane Sales Components is now being revised and expanded (the editor recommended a great new feature that's going to take me some time to write but I think people will love it). I'll report on the effect this revision has.

Free PDFs -- I like to create short PDFs and release them for free. People like to get free stuff (I know I do) and if you gear the free stuff to act as a supplement or teaser to a PDF you'll get a few more people to track down the related PDF.

New PDFs -- As we've already mentioned, new PDFs do drive sales of old ones. An impressive feat would be to have a new PDF on RPGNow's front page at all times. I don't know how someone would go about keeping up that level of output. If I didn't have my day job I could probably release a new PDF every two weeks. If I didn't have my day job I'd probably be spending more time hunting for a new job than I spend at the job each day.

Buzz -- I have no clue how to get "buzz." One weekend my PDFs were mentioned in the Necromancer Games forums . . . that caused a spike in sales. I don't know who mentioned the PDFs over there but I do appreciate everyone who came out in support of what I was doing.

Marketing -- So far I haven't had much luck with marketing PDFs. The D20 Munchkin Master's Guide that I worked on includes an author bio for me. In the bio is my website address and a very blatant plea for people to hit the site and buy PDFs. (It's a funny book so the entire bio is humorous.) We'll see what that does.

Maybe what needs to happen is a group of PDF publishers need to unite under one banner. Assiging duties to each member and setting the company up as a corporation would allow members to pool resources (including talents) and start producing PDFs under one company name. This would allow the company to always have a new product on the front page (usually more than one) and a large back catalog.


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## tensen (Feb 5, 2003)

*Re: Ways to keep your PDF in front of the customer . . .*



			
				philreed said:
			
		

> *
> Maybe what needs to happen is a group of PDF publishers need to unite under one banner. Assigning duties to each member and setting the company up as a corporation would allow members to pool resources (including talents) and start producing PDFs under one company name. This would allow the company to always have a new product on the front page (usually more than one) and a large back catalog. *




I don't think more than 1 on the front page would be that helpful.   if you note..  the other products by this vendor only show 5 products at random.   You need to get the customer to click on your company in the drop down to see all your old products, if you release at a fast rate.  Therefore you lose some of the sales to your backlist by releasing too frequently.


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## MEG Hal (Feb 5, 2003)

I will tally today my numbers and get you an update...

also Phil I have been e-mailing you as well and getting no reponses....?


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## MEG Hal (Feb 5, 2003)

Had time right away  

Interludes: Brief Expeditions to Bluffside--226 (price went up no effect)

Right Beneath Our Noses--280 and is free.

Both of these numbers are for RPGNOW.COM only.  Hope that helps.


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## philreed (Feb 5, 2003)

*Free PDFs*

Good idea. I hadn't even thought of posting numbers for free stuff.

A Dozen Free Spellbooks -- 792
Assassin's Guide to Poisons -- 546
The Cursed Temple -- 676
The Mad Merchant's Shop of Curious Wares -- 173

I'm hoping that by sharing these numbers, and communicating, we can improve sales for everyone and help each other. I know I could post all of this on secret industry lists but I feel that it's important for everyone involved (including the gamers who support us) to have some idea of what the PDF industry is really like.


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## philreed (Feb 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Ways to keep your PDF in front of the customer . . .*



			
				tensen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think more than 1 on the front page would be that helpful.   if you note..  the other products by this vendor only show 5 products at random.   You need to get the customer to click on your company in the drop down to see all your old products, if you release at a fast rate.  Therefore you lose some of the sales to your backlist by releasing too frequently. *




Good point. Part of what I'm thinking, when it comes to backlist sales, is that every PDF should include some mention of other PDFs. A catalog page or something in each PDF. The page never has to be printed (and shouldn't be included in page count) but for those who want to know what else is available, they have it in the file.


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## Arnix (Feb 5, 2003)

Has anyone added any advertising at the end of the PDF.  Sort of like a banner exchange on a website?

This could increase pdf sales.


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## Storminator (Feb 5, 2003)

Perhaps someone can build a site with all the various pdf publishers that frequent the boards, and list all their products. Include the RPGNow links and get Morrus to host it. Then there would always be a place to browse the pdf market.

Would be a bit of work, but it's always work to sell products (as I'm sure you already know better than I).

PS


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## jmucchiello (Feb 5, 2003)

Storminator said:
			
		

> *Perhaps someone can build a site with all the various pdf publishers that frequent the boards, and list all their products. Include the RPGNow links and get Morrus to host it. Then there would always be a place to browse the pdf market.*



Isn't that just RPGNow? Or you could just go to the enworld reviews page and browse by company.

Good web design says you want to minimize mouse clicks thus sending people to your company page on RPGNow is the most direct way to get them to your products.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 5, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Revised editions seem to be popular too. Now Joe you KNOW your book could use a few extra illustrations... *



I've been toying with the idea for a web enhancement that I would merge into the book (with a few illos and a cover, of course). You know, something to pretty up the book for the ENnies. 

I hope to have that done about a month after Tree of Knowledge comes out which should be about a month before ENnies cut-off unless Morrus goes with the April date that he is toying with. In which case it bumps up ahead of ToK.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 5, 2003)

Arnix said:
			
		

> *Has anyone added any advertising at the end of the PDF.  Sort of like a banner exchange on a website?*



Do you mean of another publisher's product or your own? That would be interesting especially if you found another pub who's product lines complemented (rather than competed with) your own.


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## Kerrick (Feb 5, 2003)

> That would be interesting especially if you found another pub who's product lines complemented (rather than competed with) your own.




  Or better yet, actually creating a product to complement someone else's. That's something Ambient and we (The Brood) have started doing... We make references to things in other Ambient products in our books (we have permission, of course); Hellhound is also including a new PrC, the Blighted Slayer, in the print edition of our first book, _Crimson Contracts_. We've used material from Monte Cook (the poison handling tables). 
   I've seen collaboration between other compnies before, too, and I think it's great; our goal is to get companies working WITH each other, rather than against, so that we can create a widespread community of producers, publishers, and gamers, and to enhance and enrich the quality of products on the market. By referencing other people's material and/or including it in our products, we get people interested in those other things also, as they could be used with the book(s) they already have.


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## HellHound (Feb 5, 2003)

Adding advertising to a PDF product seems to irritate those who buy them. (See the latest review of Modern Day Maps 2 on RPGnow... here) - I've also seen this mentioned in other threads here and elsewhere.

A better option, IMO, is to include a PDF pamphlet about your other products in the zip file. Several publishers do this, and I have never seen a negative comment about this sort of "packaging".


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## malladin (Feb 5, 2003)

I think some sort of collaboration with other pdf publishers would be a great idea.

As rpgnow is becoming, possibly, over subscribed by publishers it might be an idea for a bunch of us to get together as suggested and produce a web page to promote a limited range of products, meaning that things don't 'drop off the font page' as quickly.

I think the site would probably link through to individual product pages on rpgnow, but if you can build a site thats a good resource (by us all supplying it with freebies, support products and editorials) and cuts down the amount of dross you have to search through on RPGNow it _could_ be popuar with the customers.  A smaller database would mean quicker browsing too.

Personally I would be keen to be involved in anything like this.  As I'm a programmer by day and programmed and designed all the Malladin's Gate site myself I'd be happy to put a site together (although probably best if someone else provides me with some grafix, as all I've got at the minute is a couple of textures copied out of word)

I suppose the question is how do we decide who will join? Do we have a set membership, and onlyinclude others by invitation?   That doesn't seem fair to me.  What about some sort of review system to maintain quality control, as It'd have to have a high overall standard to attract people to use it instead of the RPGNow front page.  Any other thoughts?

How about a name for this site.  Ifjust checked and both www.d20alliance.com and www.pdfalliance.com domain names are available, as a thought - anyone got a better name?

Cheerio,

Ben, Malladin's Gate

PS. Krug - I'd be happy to pass a you review copies of our newer products, could you pass me your email and I'll sort you out with a complimentary copy through RPGNow. Email me at ben@malladinsgate.com


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## V_Shane (Feb 6, 2003)

> Or better yet, actually creating a product to complement someone else's.




This is something I have started also (see thread "Writers of the Arcane") to hopefully have art packets out that other companies and people can reference for thier own resources and campaigns, and as time goes on I will be putting up more art packages that can eventually help support other products shy on art. By doing this I maintain the rights to my work, my art/ID doesn't get lost in the shuffle. And I promote on my site the links of those that have written about the Card Art series.  I feel this a great opportunity of cross-colaberation that has alot of potential.  


Shane


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## Krug (Feb 6, 2003)

But does one have to ask permission first before refering to the product of another company? NOT using the material, mind you.


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## jmucchiello (Feb 6, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *But does one have to ask permission first before refering to the product of another company? NOT using the material, mind you. *



According to the OGL we cannot refer to one another's trademarks without permission so you cannot do this without having a bit discussion with each other.


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## Strutinan (Feb 6, 2003)

Psionics Companion - 135 copies

Now that the novelty has worn off, I seem to be selling an average of a copy every day.  Not bad, not bad at all.  My girl-friend is proud 

Over here at DaemonEye we've been thinking alot about advertising and product line.  We are probably going to a convention towards the end of the month to do some networking and customer relations.  We plan on running three totally distinct product lines under the DaemonEye banner in order to maximize cross-sales.

later on in the spring I'll probably be releasing a free PDF of a few bits-n-nibblies form Lands of Molokai that can be used in non-LoM campaigns.  I swear (sometimes loudly), this thing has become an all-consuming force of nature!  The thing has ballooned form a simple campaign setting with a few setting-specific feats and PrCs, to a complete nearly self-contained EXPERIENCE that borders on being an immense splat-book!


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## philreed (Feb 6, 2003)

*Website*

While a website is not a bad idea it can become difficult to keep it maintained. I know I wouldn't have time to maintain one. I would be willing to buy the domain and pay hosting fees if someone else would volunteer to act as webmaster.

Check the Digital Publishers Group for an example of the type of site you're suggesting.


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## malladin (Feb 6, 2003)

*Website*

The Digital publishers group site is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, I was just thinking that a smaller group of member companies, dedicated to D20, would mean that it the site _could_ become a hub for D20 pdf customers to cut though some of the chaff on the PRGNow site.

I'd be happy to webmaster the site - I'm pretty much on top of php now, and all I do all day at (real life) work is database programming and analysys, so I recon I can build a decent site, technically, I just don't have the access to the art to make it look good.  I'd envisage the website pretty much running itself, anyway.  My current design idea will llow the member publishers to post their own product details and news items to the site. If there's only a few co-interested parties involved it shouldn't need anyone to 'nanny' what people post, so its just someone to look after the technical side of teh site, which I would be capable of managing.

Ben, Malladin's Gate Press


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## Nellisir (Feb 7, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *A better option, IMO, is to include a PDF pamphlet about your other products in the zip file. Several publishers do this, and I have never seen a negative comment about this sort of "packaging". *




Speaking as a fairly frequent purchaser of pdfs, I really appreciate this sort of add-on.  It's free advertising for the publisher, and the customer doesn't feel that they've "paid" for it, been tricked into paying for it, or has to work around it when printing (my big issue).  I like anything that gives me a good overview of the publisher's products, both current and future, and a sense of what type of product the publisher is creating, (which tells me how much attention I should pay to them in the future).

I also like the idea of a central website that coordinates information on pdf publishers, including short company bios, products, and website links.  

My primary sources of information about pdf publishers are RPGNow and this board.  I don't have the patience to page through EN World's publisher lists looking for publishers I don't recognize on the off chance one of them might have a product out I might be interested in.  Similarly, I rarely chase all the links on RPG Now.

A simple website (no ornate graphics, no super-dooper hypertextdrive database markup formatting programming that makes every link an odyssey of errors) that has, on the left, a list of publishers linked to a publisher bio page (which includes a 1 paragraph summary of company philosophy/targetmarket/product type/whathaveyou, a link to their website, and a full product list with links to the appropriate RPG Now page), a banner up top, and a main page with simple, one to two line "what's new" announcements ("Mud Temples of the Leopard Frog People", a 64 page campaign sourcebook for the Frog Pond Campaign Setting by Amphibian Press).  The title links to RPGNow and a product description, the publisher names links to the publisher bio page, and anything else can link to whatever's appropriate.  NO THUMBNAILS on the front page!  They take up too much space.

Cheers
Nell.


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## Mystic Eye (Feb 7, 2003)

We have only had a free download at RPGnow for a long time. It was a set of facing rules for d20 we were creating for Mystic Warriors. We did not include them in the book and posted for free what we had. Since, it has been downloaded 732 times.


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## Mark (Feb 7, 2003)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> *A simple website (no ornate graphics, no super-dooper hypertextdrive database markup formatting programming that makes every link an odyssey of errors) that has, on the left, a list of publishers linked to a publisher bio page (which includes a 1 paragraph summary of company philosophy/targetmarket/product type/whathaveyou, a link to their website, and a full product list with links to the appropriate RPG Now page), a banner up top, and a main page with simple, one to two line "what's new" announcements ("Mud Temples of the Leopard Frog People", a 64 page campaign sourcebook for the Frog Pond Campaign Setting by Amphibian Press).  The title links to RPGNow and a product description, the publisher names links to the publisher bio page, and anything else can link to whatever's appropriate.  NO THUMBNAILS on the front page!  They take up too much space.*




I'd chip in an equal share to be placed (or place myself through some form interface) for a spot on a site like that!


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## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Ways to keep your PDF in front of the customer . . .*



			
				philreed said:
			
		

> *when it comes to backlist sales, is that every PDF should include some mention of other PDFs. A catalog page or something in each PDF. The page never has to be printed (and shouldn't be included in page count) but for those who want to know what else is available, they have it in the file. *




What we (RPGNow and publishers in general) need is everyone to help spread the word of PDF's in general. Use someplace other then ENworld to harp your products. Get down to your local game stores and spread the word of RPGNow. I have demo CD's I'll send anyone wanting to personally hand them out to people specifically interested.

I think the bigger concern right now is getting more customers at RPGNow than to get your one product noticed more. Sure getting your products noticed more is an important thing- but chances are that most of the customers have already seen your product when it WAS on the front page and didn't buy.

We need new blood. We need it from places other then the typical online haunts. We have an ad in the current Dungeon Magazine (50,000 circulation), we have an ad on the new GamePlay CD (10,000 circ), and we're going to be on the Campaign Suite Demo & Install CDs (12,000 circ).

FYI: Currently RPGNow is growing by about 1000 customers a month and has about 12,000 right now. I know there are a lot more out there...

James


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## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *A better option, IMO, is to include a PDF pamphlet about your other products in the zip file. Several publishers do this, and I have never seen a negative comment about this sort of "packaging". *




One suggestion that was brought up was if we used our POD services to provide a mini full color catalog of some products form RPGNow. It would be funded by collecting $ from the vendors involved and would be handed out at conventions and FLAGS functions and such... basically it would cost each vendor $20-50 to be in it and we'd make 200-300 copies (whatever was collected could pay for) of it and hand it out (these are guesses at the numbers as it wasn't calcluated). 

In short, produce a nice physical "pamphlet" to pass around and promote a select few vendors.

James


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## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> *on the left, a list of publishers linked to a publisher bio page (which includes a 1 paragraph summary of company philosophy/targetmarket/product type/whathaveyou, a link to their website, and a full product list with links to the appropriate RPG Now page)*




Aside from the BIO, this is already on RPGNow's left nav window. A list of publishers that when selecting the one you want shows you all their products. Is this not what you meant?

Maybe you're looking for an RPGNow Lite or something where you can quickly skim around without all the thumbnails? I donno... I learned years ago people don't buy without pictures in their face.

Anyway, if there is anything I can do to help make RPGNow better or easier, please let me know. Or better yet, use our forums at:

http://forums.rpghost.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=3

cause posting here (while great and appreciated) only publisher questions here only gets you a one sided d20 centric view of things.

James


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## annadobritt (Feb 8, 2003)

When I'm shopping for a pdf, rarely do I pay attention to the cover (no slight to the artists intended!!)  It's usually the title that catches my eye or I read a post on a forum about something coming out.


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## Nellisir (Feb 8, 2003)

rpghost said:
			
		

> *
> Aside from the BIO, this is already on RPGNow's left nav window. A list of publishers that when selecting the one you want shows you all their products. Is this not what you meant?*




Ah, look.  I never noticed it before, squashed in with the Shopping Cart, Quick Find, Categories, What's New, Specials, Comments, and About.

I'm perfectly serious.  I like RPGNow.  I think RPGNow is cool, and I just bought $28 worth of pdf products there today (or last night?).  I just never ever saw that before.  And it is squashed.



> *Maybe you're looking for an RPGNow Lite or something where you can quickly skim around without all the thumbnails? I donno... I learned years ago people don't buy without pictures in their face.*




I don't think it should be a sale site, I think it should be a  specialized announcement page.  Phil Reed led off this topic with a list of 5 products, and I'd never heard of 2 of them.  I can't buy something I've never heard of.  I have EN World as my homepage (much to my fiance's disinterest), and if they were announced here, they were lost in the melee of general stuffness.  I check the frontpage of RPGNow about once a week (where I do look at the pretty pictures), and never noticed them there.

All -I'm- looking for is a list of what's new every week or so, possibly with a list of keywords id'ing what the product is about (way back in the day, someone, maybe Necromancer Games or Fiery Dragon, had a whole list of key words they were going to use to identify products.  I liked that idea).

...

I just checked out the "what's new" page at RPGNow, and found it....a bit too much.  I had to scroll horizontally to view products on the right, and the page, even after sorting for fantasy, was just -long-.  



> *cause posting here ... only gets you a one sided d20 centric view of things.*




I only buy d20, so what you see as d20centric I see as me-oriented, and as a consumer, I like things that are me-oriented.

It's 12:30am here, and I'm just getting over being sick, so I'll have to post back later.  I'll try and stop by your forums to add my detailed opinion; but in a nutshell, much of the -look- of the site feels very square and clunky to me.  I think it's the black boxy topic headers everywhere.  There's also a great deal of (IMO) clutter.  The poll, for one.  I've answered it, now I'll be glad when it's gone.  The 8 topics on the left side for others.

Thanks for your patience,
Nell.

Whoo-hoo!  I shop like Annadobritt!  

After rereading this and revising this post 4 times, I dunno's also.  Maybe RPGNow Lite (Still good stuff, just less of it!) is what I'd like.


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## Mark (Feb 8, 2003)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> *...lost in the melee of general stuffness.*




If that's not a sig line waiting to happen, I don't know what is. 

And not to be overly flippant about it, you make some excellent points


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## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> *All -I'm- looking for is a list of what's new every week or so,
> *




Well there is our monthly newsletter which lists a product catalog that is updated monthly. Not sure if that fits that need though.



			
				Nellisir said:
			
		

> *I just checked out the "what's new" page at RPGNow, and found it....a bit too much.  I had to scroll horizontally to view products on the right, and the page, even after sorting for fantasy, was just -long-.
> *





Well the problem with building this page is that we have to just take the first X characters from someone's product description and show it - but lots of them have HTML in them and it causes problems. Sure I could cut it down to the most recent 20 or so product, but that's what the front page already does (minus the text). Or I could work up a listing of Titles only...

Problem is no matter what I do it just adds more options and confusion and doesn't fully satisfy anyone.


Sure another site that spotlights a few publishers would work - a small group working together. But that only highlights their products and it will only work if the group of publishers agree to work together and not compete in the same topics.

James


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## Morrus (Feb 8, 2003)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> *
> 
> All -I'm- looking for is a list of what's new every week or so, possibly with a list of keywords id'ing what the product is about  *




How about a list in the EN World news, once a week or so?  I wouldn't want to do it every day, but that might be OK.

I did try to set up an regular automated feed using some code that james gave me, but couldn't get it to work.  Added to that is the non-standard format of title-publisher, it would just make my main page look like a mess.


----------



## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

For that matter if anyone out there wants to feed the newest product lists on their own website, here are some URLS you can pull (using fopen in php or some other form of remote file reading):

http://www.rpgnow.com/new_all.php

http://www.rpgnow.com/new_ol.php

http://www.rpgnow.com/new_d20_ol.php

http://www.rpgnow.com/new_d20_en.php

James


----------



## Morrus (Feb 8, 2003)

Eh?  That's weird. BOEMII isn't new!


----------



## rpghost (Feb 8, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Eh?  That's weird. BOEMII isn't new! *




Whoops... had some bad categories in the select list. Should be fine now.

James


----------



## Razuur (Feb 8, 2003)

*A PDF buyer.*

Well I have bought a few PDFs from RPGnow, and have been pretty much satisfied.  THis has been an interesting conversation, so I thought I would throw my 2 cents on what has casued me to buy PDFs.

Cover.  Well, it can help, but it is not as important as the title.  A good title that quickly goes over what is in it is useful, and may make me want to see more as I peruse through RPGnow.

Comments.  I really follow comments.  I love it when a PDF has 5 or so comments.  I read all of them before buying, and have only bought one product that didn't have comments (Elements of Magic).  In fact I bought the maidenheim supplements somely due to reviews.  I am able to sift reviewers who have the same tastes as I  by their reviews.

Description.  Some times I wish there was more description.

Advertising.  I have bought three products because I heard of them on these boards.

Cost.  Spending more than 5.00 on a pdf is a rarity for me.  I have to pay for paper and toner, and quite frankly, PDFs have less pages, and are often less indepth than printed prods.  A PDF better have crazy reviews or have a high page count filled with stuff if it is gonna cross that 5.00 - 6.00 range.  In fact some products, like lists of tabled names for 5.00 is just too much.  if they dropped it a couple of bucks, I might pick up several products!  

Quality.  If what I got was good quality, I'll keep my eye out for more products by that company.  I am loyalty based.

Hope this helps,

Razuur


----------



## rpghost (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: A PDF buyer.*



			
				Razuur said:
			
		

> *Comments.  I really follow comments.  I love it when a PDF has 5 or so comments.  I read all of them before buying, and have only bought one product that didn't have comments (Elements of Magic).  In fact I bout the maidenheim supplements somely due to reviews.*




Problem with the comments is they get a lot of abuse... try to aviod taking them too serious when they are from contributors of the book or people who have not actually bought the book. There are poeople who just like to trash talk. Then there are people who like to make fake or bias reviews.

For this reason we setup a reviews forum  http://forums.rpghost.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=7  for general converstation in hopes that they comments are kept to only paid customer response.

James


----------



## Strutinan (Feb 9, 2003)

> There are poeople who just like to trash talk. Then there are people who like to make fake or bias reviews.



A problem I'm having to deal with.  What REALLY gets my goat is when somebody makes purposeful mistakes in thier comment in order to degrade the percieved quality of the product.  I've seen it happen in a few products other than mine, and it cheeses me off even when it happens to somebody I don't like!

Its not only rude as all hell, its dishonorable in the extreem.  If you don't like something, say the real reason WHY, don't manufacture problems that you think will turn off other people.


----------



## Krug (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: Re: A PDF buyer.*



			
				rpghost said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Problem with the comments is they get a lot of abuse... try to aviod taking them too serious when they are from contributors of the book or people who have not actually bought the book. There are poeople who just like to trash talk. Then there are people who like to make fake or bias reviews.
> 
> ...




Yeap I agree... the comments system is just abused. You can't take a 5* rating seriously anymore on rpgnow.com.

I've cut down lately on my PDF buying. No place to print them out anymore but some I've found useful. Anyway, I think it's just the start. PDFs will continue to get bigger and more popular, and it's good to see so many extending the game in so many creative ways.


----------



## jgbrowning (Feb 25, 2003)

*USA vrs. Non-US?*

I've found that 37.5% of all my customers are coming from outside the USA..  How's this compare with all you other PDF'ers out there?


edit: hrm.. only 25% of all the previews were from people outside the USA...


joe b.


----------



## Rifter (Feb 25, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> How about a list in the EN World news, once a week or so?  I wouldn't want to do it every day, but that might be OK.
> *




Once a week would be good.


----------



## jmucchiello (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *I've found that 37.5% of all my customers are coming from outside the USA..  How's this compare with all you other PDF'ers out there?*



Based on customer email addresses at RPGNow, I get 10%. I remember early sales had a higher percentage of non-usa email addresses.


----------



## Blacksad (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *Based on customer email addresses at RPGNow, I get 10%. I remember early sales had a higher percentage of non-usa email addresses. *




with hotmail.com, and other such services, you might have a higher percentage than that in fact. Don't you have acces to the country of the customer?


----------



## rpghost (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				Blacksad said:
			
		

> *with hotmail.com, and other such services, you might have a higher percebtage than that in fact. Don't you have acces to the country of the customer? *




You have now. Under the sales sources in your vendor area I added a quick summary of countries of customers.

James


----------



## philreed (Feb 26, 2003)

*Thank you!*

This is very informative. It would appear that just as with print, the PDF market is dominated by US sales. At least, that's what my numbers show.

I now understand why the time I tried an A4 version there was no response. 95% of the people buying the PDF didn't need an A4 version.


----------



## jmucchiello (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				rpghost said:
			
		

> *You have now. Under the sales sources in your vendor area I added a quick summary of countries of customers.*



Cool. Make that 24%.


----------



## jgbrowning (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				rpghost said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You have now. Under the sales sources in your vendor area I added a quick summary of countries of customers.
> 
> James *




Thank you! This is much faster than doing it by hand... 

A Magical Medieval Society:WE ** 78 sold/ 35.8% outside USA
out of 1007 views 78 sold for a view to sales ratio of 12.9
($10 PDF on sale for 5 days.)

MMS:WE-free preview **336 sold/ 29.1% outside the USA
out of 1581 views 336 sold for a view to sales ratio of 4.7
(Free PDF on sale for 14 days.)

**I haven't taken the time to see how many people who got the preview actually went on to buy the book... i'll probably do that sometime when my mind is utterly numb...  It'd be boring to do, but useful information**


So far I'm very happy with the sales, but i'm trying to figure out how to get the word out to a larger market.  Part of me wants to just pop up on every thread and go..
"Hey you!  buy my book! You'll like it.  Its really good.  No, *really*"   But that's uhum... rather poor form. 

I'm also trying to figure out how to increase my view to sales ratio, but that seems even a more arcane process.  

I imagine that once i get a few reviews from people here on ENworld who's opinions are highly valued i'll see sales pick up a bit. Anyone have suggestions? I'm always willing to learn to do better...


thanks!

joe b.


----------



## Krug (Feb 26, 2003)

Web enhancements, and reviews...
(yes I've bought a copy but haven't got time to look through the monster yet.)


----------



## jgbrowning (Feb 26, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Web enhancements, and reviews...
> (yes I've bought a copy but haven't got time to look through the monster yet.) *




good... I've got 3 or so web enhancements so far and one review... i expect many people are in a similiar situation as you Krug, where they've gotten it, but simply haven't had time to read it well enough to post a review they'd be comfortable with.

thanks for the response, glad to see im doing some of it right at least.. 

joe b.


----------



## xrpsuzi (Feb 26, 2003)

*banners*

For those of you who only or predominately sell PDFs, do you find that purchasing advertisments (banner images on ENworld etc...) help sales? Or is it really only helpful for book sellers and online stores kind of thing?

Thanks,
Suzi


----------



## HellHound (Feb 26, 2003)

Suzi - I've found the price of advertising on most sites is well beyond the budget of e-publishers. It SERIOUSLY cuts into the small profits you see on a release.

But the fact that Morrus gives us free advertising via the front page news and this forum makes up for it QUITE well.


----------



## Storminator (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: USA vrs. Non-US?*



			
				jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *
> 
> **I haven't taken the time to see how many people who got the preview actually went on to buy the book... i'll probably do that sometime when my mind is utterly numb...  It'd be boring to do, but useful information**
> 
> ...




For what its worth, I got the preview and bought the book.  Haven't read it yet...

I've thought about how to increase the market a bit, and it seems really hard. I can go tell my FLGS to get a print book, and they're happy to spread the word about new products. What do they get for advertising a pdf tho? Good will? They can't really sell it, not easily and efficiently. 

Not seeing any easy answers.

PS


----------



## jmucchiello (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: banners*



			
				suzi yee said:
			
		

> *For those of you who only or predominately sell PDFs, do you find that purchasing advertisments (banner images on ENworld etc...) help sales? Or is it really only helpful for book sellers and online stores kind of thing?*



This is just a guess, but I would say based on Natural 20 Press' sales rankings that advertising in banners on EnWorld is valuable. Of course, I doubt they have to pay the fees though.


----------



## jgbrowning (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: banners*



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *This is just a guess, but I would say based on Natural 20 Press' sales rankings that advertising in banners on EnWorld is valuable. Of course, I doubt they have to pay the fees though. *




hehe, i'd imagine not.   we'll have to think about it.  its nice in that, if nothing else, it helps support this site.

if we decide to do it, we'll provide what information as to its effects we can.


joe b.


----------



## Krug (Feb 26, 2003)

For those publishers that have print versions of PDF Products, how have sales been?


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: banners*



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *This is just a guess, but I would say based on Natural 20 Press' sales rankings that advertising in banners on EnWorld is valuable. Of course, I doubt they have to pay the fees though. *




  Little question:  When was the last time you saw a banner ad for a Nat20 Product?  We figured that since the entire site is pretty much an ad for Nat20 stuff, the banner ads were not helping sales too much, and they just meant Russ could sell fewer slots to people the banners would help more.  Which kinda sucks, because we had some cool banners way back when.


----------



## Krug (Feb 26, 2003)

> Does anyone want to see D20 Comics?
Why not?


----------



## jmucchiello (Feb 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: banners*



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *When was the last time you saw a banner ad for a Nat20 Product?  We figured that since the entire site is pretty much an ad for Nat20 stuff, the banner ads were not helping sales too much, and they just meant Russ could sell fewer slots to people the banners would help more.  Which kinda sucks, because we had some cool banners way back when.   *



Well, I just did a few dozen reloads. So there aren't any Nat20 books advertised.  (When did they stop?) What was the latest Nat20 release? In the saddle, I think? It hasn't sky-rocketed into the top 30 like most of the other Nat20 books. Perhaps it should have a banner? Or maybe I'm wrong. Russ can even tell how many of his impressions result in click through so my speculation is just silly.

In any case, I still find the banner ads too expensive for my budget. At this point I'm still trying to funnel funding into artwork. I guess we'd have to have people using the ads chime in to tell us if sales are up.


----------



## Dextra (Feb 28, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *For those publishers that have print versions of PDF Products, how have sales been? *




Are you talking Print on Demand, or larger print runs?

We just did our first POD for Three Arrows, and in the first two days we sold 8 copies.  It amazes me that more people don't buy POD.  You pay more money, and have to wait to get the printed product, but you get the PDF in your mailbox while you wait.  It seems like a win-win situation: save on toner and paper, secure in the knowledge that in a week or two a lovely book will appear in your mailbox while you still get to read the electronic copy.

As for print versions, GarUdok sold just over 350 copies in the PDF.  I think the print run of Necromancer's Legacy was around fifteen hundred to two thousand copies (not sure really, Doug???) and sales have been decent.  I think there were over a thousand pre-orders.  Not bad for the little guys, I figure.

Which reminds me, does anyone still care to see sales figures?  We have one product #2 on the Best Sellers, then our next one jumps down to #19, then #21, and #27.  Wow.  That means we have three products not on that chart.  How disappointing.  I was certain that the Colouring Book was going to at least beat out Everyone Else!  (sigh... guess that pony'll wait a little longer!)


----------



## philreed (Feb 28, 2003)

*I still want to see sales numbers . . .*

These are RPGNow sales only.

101 Arcane Spell Components -- 154
101 Mundane Treasures -- 308
101 Spellbooks -- 284
A Dozen Free Spellbooks -- 872
Another 101 Mundane Treasures -- 54
Assassin's Guide to Poisons -- 636
Construct Mechanus -- 93
In the Depths of BlackWater -- 46
Possessors -- 21
Star Ace Primer -- 66
The Cursed Temple -- 739
The Mad Merchant's Shop of Curious Wares -- 283


----------



## MThibault (Feb 28, 2003)

Dextra said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I was certain that the Colouring Book was going to at least beat out Everyone Else!  (sigh... guess that pony'll wait a little longer!) *




Sorry, I can't help with the pony.  I can buy the gals ice cream the next time I'm in the neighborhood...  I know, it's not the same.

Cheers


----------



## jgbrowning (Feb 28, 2003)

*Re: I still want to see sales numbers . . .*

So far we've sold 91 copies of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe.

There's been 349 copies of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe- Free Preview

Only have one product, so im now "completely transparent" 


joe b.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Mar 15, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: banners*



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Little question:  When was the last time you saw a banner ad for a Nat20 Product?  We figured that since the entire site is pretty much an ad for Nat20 stuff, the banner ads were not helping sales too much, and they just meant Russ could sell fewer slots to people the banners would help more.  Which kinda sucks, because we had some cool banners way back when.   *




Feels really weird to say this, but.... I think bringing back the banner ads for Natural 20 press might be a good idea. Gods know, this is one of the few sites where I routinely take a peak at what the banners lead to....

The Auld Grump


----------



## Warden (Mar 15, 2003)

I believe one of the biggest issues is that only a small number of people know two things about the PDF market:

1.  That is exists.
2.  The quality of product that can be produced.

When I got the assignment to write Mazes for Emerald Press, none of my gaming buddies knew anything about this market -- if they didn't find it in a bookstore or hobby shop, it didn't exist.  Perhaps this is one of the biggest issues and there are a lot of people out there who could use these resources.  I have a old buddy of mine from the Canadian Forces who says that military guys role-play like nothing else -- only a war will stop some of these games from taking place!!!

The ads in Dragon/Dungeon are good but perhaps there needs to be a free sampler available for potential consumers to own.  Advertise a free collection of materials from any of the PDF publishers who are willing to pitch in and let the consumers find out for themselves.  List the types of materials that are available and make them believe that they are being given access to supplements and adventures that are easier and cheaper to obtain than buying print products at a gaming shop and that these products are given the same treatment as any print product.  Since ads are being placed in the big magazines already, change them around for this cause and see what happens.  My own research is telling me that PDFs are sitting in the far corner and no one is paying any attention to them...yet.


----------



## HellHound (Mar 15, 2003)

Warden: Thus the current "recruitment" drive @ RPGnow. They have flyers you can download and bring to your local game store to show off the wonders of e-publishing.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 17, 2003)

OK, here goes:

Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns -- 1071
The Elements of Magic -- 822
WIld Spellcraft -- 700
Four-Color to Fantasy -- 530
In the Saddle: Horses & Other Mounts -- 357
The Complete Guide to Drow -- 303
Moon Elves -- 294
Death: Guardian at the Gate -- 231
Dweomercraft: Enchanters --  188


----------



## Crothian (Mar 17, 2003)

Has hadding books like Wild Spellcraft in print form hurt the sales of the pdf any?


----------



## Morrus (Mar 17, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Has hadding books like Wild Spellcraft in print form hurt the sales of the pdf any? *




WS is the only Nat20 book so far to go to print, and that happened long after the PDF sales had "dried up".  So, I'd guess not; but I couldn't guess whether it would have an effect if the two versions were released closer together.

I have seen "I'd rather wait for the print version" threads here and there, so I imagine there is *some* effect if the existence of a print version is known in advance.


----------



## Nine Hands (Mar 17, 2003)

I must say that I purchase LOTS of PDFs.  I have bought stuff from Ambient, Nat 20, Throwing Dice Games, Silver Thorne Games, Malhavoc Press, etc.

Overall I have been very pleased with my purchases thus far.  The quality is usually high and I can use most of the material in my campaign without too many changes.

Price wise, I try not to spend more than 5-6 bucks for a book, obviously a larger book will get more money and if the company producing the book has done a good job in the past, I am willing to pay a little extra.

I would like to see the PDF industry be more involved with the developers of PCGen to get some of thier info into the books.  Heck, you could bundle the PCGen or E-tools files into the ZIP file you send out with the PDFs.  To me, I have to purchase a book and then spend a good amount of my time coding the data (in this case The Book of Templates from Silverthorne games).

These types of tie ins are what can drive the sales of PDFs.  If you can get a copy of a decent book with support for the major character generators (PCGen, E-tools, RPM, etc).  That might be a good selling point.  I know that I would be willing to lay down my money if I can get off the shelf computer support.


----------



## jmucchiello (Mar 17, 2003)

Nine Hands said:
			
		

> *I would like to see the PDF industry be more involved with the developers of PCGen to get some of thier info into the books.  Heck, you could bundle the PCGen or E-tools files into the ZIP file you send out with the PDFs.  To me, I have to purchase a book and then spend a good amount of my time coding the data (in this case The Book of Templates from Silverthorne games).*



I don't use PCGen or E-tools. While it would be nice to include such goodies with my products, I just don't have the time to learn yet another markup system to translate my stuff into. I haven't looked at PCGen in a while but IIRC a year or two ago there were constant changes to the file layout.

Also, considering how fast I am with getting new product out there (read: too dang slow), should I spend my time learning how to program stuff into those tools? Making sure edits make their way into those files? Patching those files when the file format changes? Sorry. But I don't think you want me to raise the price to include that extra work. (And even if you don't mind a higher price, other potential customers, who don't need these files, will mind.)


----------



## Nine Hands (Mar 17, 2003)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *I don't use PCGen or E-tools. While it would be nice to include such goodies with my products, I just don't have the time to learn yet another markup system to translate my stuff into. I haven't looked at PCGen in a while but IIRC a year or two ago there were constant changes to the file layout.
> 
> Also, considering how fast I am with getting new product out there (read: too dang slow), should I spend my time learning how to program stuff into those tools? Making sure edits make their way into those files? Patching those files when the file format changes? Sorry. But I don't think you want me to raise the price to include that extra work. (And even if you don't mind a higher price, other potential customers, who don't need these files, will mind.) *




I could always see what I can do.  I already have most of the Senses Tuesday Two Pager done in PCGen.  Maybe we can work something out


----------



## Krug (May 12, 2003)

Any further updates?


----------



## philreed (May 12, 2003)

*Update*

Just the for sale D20 PDFs on RPGNow.

101 Spell Components -- 186
101 Collection -- 33
101 Mundane Treasures -- 413
101 Spellbooks -- 346
Another 101 Mundane Treasures -- 179
Construct Mechanus -- 125
BlackWater -- 67
Possessors -- 55
Scrollworks -- 23


----------



## annadobritt (May 13, 2003)

SRD in pdf format - 41

 

Have to say that RPGNow is the best place to buy pdfs


----------



## Scott Lynch (May 19, 2003)

Howdy, all-- here are my RPGnow figures as of tonight:

The Book of Distinctions & Drawbacks: 273
Deeds Not Words Revision 1.1: 21
Killers, Volume One: Cold Hearts & Hired Knives: 9


Now, DNW 1.0 sold 350+ copies off my own website, and 1.1 has sold another 20+ off the website... I'd just be curious to find out what I could do to give it a boost on RPGnow.com. DNW has already earned its keep, don't get me wrong, it's just that 1.1 is, IMHO, superior to 1.0 in every respect and I'd like to see it do just a tad bit better, sales-wise.

I would concur with the thought that the more generic a d20 PDF is, the better its sales will probably be, and I would add that the *more useful/cool the topic* and *the more under-represented the topic,* the better it will do. For example, the Book of Distinctions & Drawbacks has also sold 120+ copies off my own website. I can't seem to *stop* people from buying it.  It's still outselling both of my later RPGnow releases four months after its posting on RPGnow.com. I don't know of any other commercial product covering its niche.

*Killers,* on the other hand, while something I badly wanted to get "out of my system" for fun... I guess I should have known that NPC collections this late in the d20 game just aren't going to bring the crowd to its feet.  

Cheers!

SL


----------



## jgbrowning (May 20, 2003)

A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe - 386
A Magical City Guide- 658
Party of One: Leda- 20

joe b.


----------



## meatpopsicl3 (Jun 29, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *OK, here goes:
> 
> Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns -- 1071
> The Elements of Magic -- 822
> ...




We're Not Worthy!


----------



## philreed (Jun 29, 2003)

*Update*

Since this thread came back to the surface here's an update.

101 Arcane Spell Components -- 191
101 Collection -- 98
101 Divine Spell Components -- 38
101 Mundane Treasures -- 427
101 Spellbooks -- 354
Another 101 Mundane Treasures -- 225
Construct Mechanus -- 150
BlackWater -- 76
Possessors -- 62
Scrollworks -- 47

These are RPGNow numbers and just my D20 PDFs that are for sale.

It's interesting to watch the sales from month to month.


----------



## jgbrowning (Jun 30, 2003)

A Magical Medieval City Guide (free)- 1276
A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe- 538
Internet Arcana- 38
Party of One: Leda- 30

Disappointed with Internet Arcana (think the two SRDs that came out right before it killed sales) and just slightly disappointed with Party of One:Leda (we'd hoped it would be over 50 by now).

joe b.


----------



## annadobritt (Jun 30, 2003)

Latest SRD pdf figures = 138


----------



## philreed (Jun 30, 2003)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *Disappointed with Internet Arcana (think the two SRDs that came out right before it killed sales)*




You're probably right. I think that what you put together was a very useful product but it seems that there are too many "for sale" versions of SRD material out there.


----------



## lmpjr007 (Jul 3, 2003)

Here is something I have noticed even more lately, with so many new D20 companies coming out of the woodworks, publishers might want to try to sell product to these new D20 publishers and their normal customers.  I have put out the Image Portfolio line on RPGNow and it is a complete success for us.  The time length that this product will sell is almost infinite.  People will always need good art that is extremely inexpensive.  Products like these have the real potential to be long-term moneymakers over the traditional gaming sourcebook that everyone is putting out.  Personally I think many of the companies need to really look at ways they can constantly generate revenue from products with a broader scope and appeal.  I mean, how many sourcebooks can you do on D20 Monks anyway?


----------



## jmucchiello (Jul 3, 2003)

lmpjr007 said:
			
		

> *I mean, how many sourcebooks can you do on D20 Monks anyway? *



I could probably write three independent books on Monks if I tried really hard. But that's not where I'm headed. 1) martial arts stuff, 2) being a monk of war vs monk of beauty, etc, 3) Monastic life and "if there are no bibles to copy and spells exist that can copy books, what do monks do all day?"

Besides, if no one makes d20 books, who's going to need artwork?

And just so you know, my first book is nearly a year old and it still generates 6-8 sales a month. Not a lot of money, but I'm sure once your collections get that old, they'll slow down to that rate as well.

Sales Update:
Character Customization: 55 (in not quite 2 weeks, woo hoo!)
Joe's Book of Enchantment: 191


----------



## rpghost (Jul 8, 2003)

Here are some updated customer referal counts... Altas has taken over ENWorld! Free product does that I guess 

2670 Atlas-Games.com  
2651 ENWorld.org  
1413 Friend  
1224 Search Engine  
948 Website Refferal  
877 Pinnacle Ent.  
692 MonteCook.com  
641 Magazine Ad  
601 RPG.net  
341 Wizards.com  
325 google  
194 Yahoo.com  
182 NBos.com  
181 USENET  
157 A Mailing List  
147 RPGObjects  
147 Web  
143 RPGHost.com  
139 TheGameMechanics.com  
131 roleplayingtips.com  
119 Mongoose Pub.  
109 RPGShop.com  
107 Email  
107 RPGNow.com  
102 online  
97 Microtactix.com  
93 Privateer Press  
85 Dominion Games  
81 RealmsofEvil.net  
73 Banners  
64 SciFi.com  
56 pigames  
53 GamingReport.com  
52 google.com  
48 BastionPress.com  
42 EN Publishing  
41 Mortality.net  
40 GameWyrd.com  
39 www.rpg.com.br 
33 Indie-RPGs.com  
33 Paper Models Group  
33 RPGNews.com  
33 www.rpg.hu 
32 SeanKReynolds.com  
31 Campaign  
26 rollspel.nu  
26 RPGArchive.com  
23 forum  
23 RPGd20.com  
22 UncleBear.com  
18 D20 Weekly  
18 GreenRonin.com  
18 pen-paper.net  
18 rpgsheets.com  
18 www.roliste.com 
17 GMMastery.com  
15 Thunderhead Games  
15 TwinRose  
14 altavista  
14 DnDAdventure.com  
14 on the web  
13 Dark Quest Games  
12 browser  
12 rpg.hu  
12 the internet  
12 The Miniatures Page  
12 www.scenariotheque.org 
11 Guardians of Order  


Total orders by source (people actually staying to buy something):

10325 ENWorld.org  
3680 Atlas-Games.com  
2831 Search Engine  
2379 Website Refferal  
2352 Friend  
2188 MonteCook.com  
1883 Magazine Ad  
1444 Pinnacle Ent.  
1434 RPG.net  
845 Wizards.com  
577 Google  
509 RPGObjects  
386 Web  
382 Yahoo.com  
354 A Mailing List  
335 roleplayingtips.com  
323 Microtactix.com  
312 RPGHost.com  
308 RPGShop.com  
292 Mongoose Pub.  
291 RealmsofEvil.net  
284 NBos.com  
276 TheGameMechanics.com  
276 USENET  
241 Dominion Games  
241 online  
232 Privateer Press  
212 Email  
202 RPGNews.com  
198 Banners  
172 RPGNow.com  
165 GamingReport.com  
118 SeanKReynolds.com  
104 google.com  
102 BastionPress.com  
98 SciFi.com  
95 Mortality.net  
89 pigames  
85 GameWyrd.com  
81 Indie-RPGs.com  
78 EN Publishing  
77 Moongoose Site  
76 Dark Quest Games  
74 Thunderhead Games  
73 RPGd20.com  
73 www.rpg.com.br 
71 UncleBear.com  
70 Paper Models Group  
56 found in the internet  
55 campaign suite  
52 RPGArchive.com  
51 www.rpg.hu 
50 rpgsheets.com


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## lmpjr007 (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: Update*



			
				philreed said:
			
		

> *It's interesting to watch the sales from month to month. *




Here is ours:

Power Corrupts (M&M Superlink): 107 in 4 days.

We WILL be doing more M&M Superlink products in the very near future.


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## JohnNephew (Jul 9, 2003)

rpghost said:
			
		

> *Here are some updated customer referal counts... Altas has taken over ENWorld! Free product does that I guess
> *




Woo hoo!

I have to say, I'm really pleased with how the Free Ars Magica download has been going.  Our download count is almost to 9,500 -- I expect we'll pass 10,000 this month!


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## jgbrowning (Jul 12, 2003)

JohnNephew said:
			
		

> *
> Woo hoo!
> 
> I have to say, I'm really pleased with how the Free Ars Magica download has been going.  Our download count is almost to 9,500 -- I expect we'll pass 10,000 this month! *




Dear lord, that's a lot of downloads. 


jeo b.


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## spacecrime.com (Aug 15, 2003)

Joe... if I may be nosy, how has your Ennie award for _Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe_ affected sales? Have you seen a boost? If so, is it more in PDF sales, more in physical book sales, or about equal in both?

Also, if I haven't said so already, this is a fantastic book! It's well-written, full of useful information, and a pleasure to read. Thank you so much for writing this!

best wishes,


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## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2003)

> *
> The ENnies have helped quite a bit, almost as much as Monte’s 10 review.  The reason for that is I think Monte’s review reached an audience who’d never heard of MMS:WE while I think the ENnies helped push a lot of people who were riding the fence into buying it. Since there are more people who haven’t heard about it that those who were debating buying it, I think the review was the bigger sales push for us. However, the ENnies sales are only slightly less than the review sales.*



*

However, bear in mind that the review came first.  I imagine that there are a lot of people who would have bought it because of the ENnies, but happened to have bought it already because of the review, so didn't.  It's impossible to judge the two effects, because one is essentially operating within the "leftovers" of the other, and thus must be less by definition.*


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## Morrus (Aug 16, 2003)

rpghost said:
			
		

> *Here are some updated customer referal counts... Altas has taken over ENWorld! Free product does that I guess *




Yeah, but I claim all "Website Referral" options ("well, someone has to), along with "EN Publishing" and, hey, I'll claim all the sales which people don't fill in the form for.  Which means I still win! FATALITY! 

Anyway, when it comes to the actual sales, which are, of course, what counts, I think the list is pretty telling:



> 10325 ENWorld.org
> 3680 Atlas-Games.com
> 2831 Search Engine
> 2379 Website Refferal
> ...




Especially if I claim all the "Website Refferal" (who the hell spelled 'referral' like that?  2379 people?  I despair for humanity!) entries.  As I said above, somebody has to claim 'em, so it may as well be me.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2003)

Yo Morrus!  Watch those 3leete admin skillz...




I think you ment to "quote" my above post, but instead hit "edit" and really changed what I said.


If this was intentional, that's ok, I'd prefer that you'd indicate that I didn't write the above however. If it was just an accident, let me know and I'll repost the original.


joe b.


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## rpghost (Aug 16, 2003)

Add up all the general advertising and paid links and mailing lists and all that stuff that I'm directly responsible and we might have you beat 

Still, we can worship the power of En World. Why not start a cult? Make them all wear the t-shirts we made!

James
http://www.RPGNow.com


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## Morrus (Aug 16, 2003)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *Yo Morrus!  Watch those 3leete admin skillz...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ooops!  Sorry, Joe!  The two buttons are right next to each other.  If it's any consolation, that's far from the first time I've done that!



> Add up all the general advertising and paid links and mailing lists and all that stuff that I'm directly responsible and we might have you beat
> 
> Still, we can worship the power of En World. Why not start a cult? Make them all wear the t-shirts we made!
> 
> James




Ah, but you forget the psychic advertising I do, for which you have no method of measuring.  All I need to do is concentrate for a bit and meditate on my ki, and hundreds of people immediately log on and buy something from RPGNow...

Now that's a power that would be useful.


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## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2003)

spacecrime.com said:
			
		

> *Joe... if I may be nosy, how has your Ennie award for Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe affected sales? Have you seen a boost? If so, is it more in PDF sales, more in physical book sales, or about equal in both?
> 
> Also, if I haven't said so already, this is a fantastic book! It's well-written, full of useful information, and a pleasure to read. Thank you so much for writing this!
> 
> best wishes, *




Original Post: The ENnies have helped quite a bit, almost as much as Monte’s 10 review.  The reason for that is I think Monte’s review reached an audience who’d never heard of MMS:WE while I think the ENnies helped push a lot of people who were riding the fence into buying it. Since there are more people who haven’t heard about it that those who were debating buying it, I think the review was the bigger sales push for us. However, the ENnies sales are only slightly less than the review sales.

We’ve pushed all the way up to the 5th best-selling PDF of all time (total sales of 760 PDFS) and between our website, GenCon, and  RPGmall.com we’ve sold about 250 or so hardcopies. We just sent out our first shipment of books to Impressions Advertising and Marketing, so MMS:WE should be hitting a lot of FLGS shelves very soon. We can thank the ENnies for providing us a retail market. Without them, we would *NOT* be getting into very many stores as only a few distributors were willing to take a chance on us.

Its hard for me to isolate the ENnies sales against the Monte sales, but my guess is that the ENnies has led to proportionally more sales on PDF than hardcopy, probably something like 70/30 ratio. Once all the accounting is done, however, for us, the ENnies will have created thousands of dollars of sales by opening up the traditional sales channel for us. Basically, the ENnies have turned us into viable publishers that people are willing to listen to (if only briefly )

But more than just that, I think we’ve been blessed with a group of people who picked up this book by two nobodies and loved it so much they wanted to tell their friends. We sure haven’t done anything right that conventional business wisdom would suggest for a new company to do.

We plan on keeping on doing that.  We're going for only one or maybe two books a year, but we're going to try our best to make them truly exceptional.

Reply to Morrus: 







> _Originally posted by morrus_However, bear in mind that the review came first. I imagine that there are a lot of people who would have bought it because of the ENnies, but happened to have bought it already because of the review, so didn't. It's impossible to judge the two effects, because one is essentially operating within the "leftovers" of the other, and thus must be less by definition.




Yes, very true. It’s hard to tell exactly what would have happened, especially because it’s hard to tell what *is* happening. I also know there’s a group of people who read the review, but didn’t buy, until the ENnies convinced them.

Either way, suzi and I are trying our best to win more of them!

joe b


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## spacecrime.com (Aug 16, 2003)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> We just sent out our first shipment of books to Impressions Advertising and Marketing, so MMS:WE should be hitting a lot of FLGS shelves very soon.



YAY! It will be on my shelves, and will be getting a Mobster Recommendation from me. 

cheers,


----------



## jgbrowning (Aug 16, 2003)

spacecrime.com said:
			
		

> *
> YAY! It will be on my shelves, and will be getting a Mobster Recommendation from me.
> 
> cheers, *




Thank you sir! Now If i can get everyone else to push it... 

joe b.


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## Cecil (Aug 16, 2003)

> Ah, but you forget the psychic advertising I do, for which you have no method of measuring. All I need to do is concentrate for a bit and meditate on my ki, and hundreds of people immediately log on and buy something from RPGNow...





Morrus, my wallet hates you but my campaign is very appreciative.....


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 11, 2006)

So it's three years later. I know the industry in general isn't very healthy, but I keep hearing more and more about PDF publishing. How are people doing these days?


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