# [Netflix] Shadow & Bones



## Marc_C (Apr 28, 2021)

I really liked to first two episodes. Anyone else watching this?

_"Ravka, a fantasy kingdom based on the Tsarist Russian Empire, is set in a war-torn world plagued by the Shadow Fold, a swath of permanent darkness separating East from West Ravka which is inhabited by carnivorous winged creatures known as Volcra. Orphan mapmaker Alina Starkov discovers that she is a Grisha (a magic-user) who posseses the power to create light, which could be the key to setting her country free from the Fold. Alina joins an elite army of Grisha serving under General Kirigan, the Shadow Summoner."_









						Shadow and Bone (TV series) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## payn (Apr 28, 2021)

Its not too bad. I like the pacing and style of it for sure. The acting is a little wooden at times, but I'm enjoying most of the performances.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2021)

I was going to watch just one episode per week . . . . two days later, I've wrapped up all 8!! Enjoyed the hell out of the story and the world, and I will be reading the books it's based on for sure.

The Shadow Fold reminded me a lot of the Mourning in the Eberron setting, including the various methods of traversing it. I also enjoyed the backstory of the grisha ("witches"), who are becoming less valuable to the army over time as technology progresses.

The Darkling was an attempt at a sympathetic villain, but played a bit too melodramatically towards the end to make that work. And I love the actor, Ben Barnes.

And the Crows!!!! What a fun group of rogues, including the Conductor! That was a character that went places I wasn't expecting!

The geography of the world was confusing to follow in the story, even after looking at a map Netflix put online.

Overall, I have quibbles, but really, really enjoyed spending two full evenings watching this epic! There's at least two more seasons to this story, if Netflix doesn't pull a Netflix and cancel the show prematurely!


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## Gradine (Apr 28, 2021)

I've read all the books. The Grisha Trilogy is fine, but the first book especially can be rough at times. 

The Six of Crows and its sequel are both really, really good though.

I was so excited for this to come out, and it did not disappoint


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## payn (Apr 28, 2021)

I just finished a few more eps tonight. I think it gets better as it goes. Though, I could see the twist that just happened from a mile away. Still enjoying it.


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## Eyes of Nine (Apr 28, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I really liked to first two episodes. Anyone else watching this?
> 
> _"Ravka, a fantasy kingdom based on the Tsarist Russian Empire, is set in a war-torn world plagued by the Shadow Fold, a swath of permanent darkness separating East from West Ravka which is inhabited by carnivorous winged creatures known as Volcra. Orphan mapmaker Alina Starkov discovers that she is a Grisha (a magic-user) who posseses the power to create light, which could be the key to setting her country free from the Fold. Alina joins an elite army of Grisha serving under General Kirigan, the Shadow Summoner."_
> 
> ...



I'm waiting to read at least the first 3 Grishaverse books before I dive into the series.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 28, 2021)

Yeah, I started it the other day thinking it would be a bit of cheap crap like Mortal Instruments or that bad Arthurian thing, also on Netflix,  from a few months ago. 

But I binged the first 6 eps and will be finishing season 1 tonight.  It's good.


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## Tonguez (Apr 28, 2021)

I’ve watched the first two episodes and do like the aesthetic, and that its a great departure from medieval western Europe. The story seems standard YA adventure

but the accents are excrutiating and had disjunct of setting and sound which had me a little discombobulated


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## wicked cool (Apr 28, 2021)

watched 5.5 episodes so far. Its ok and a little confusing

why would ben barnes character be so powerful and why would anyone want to see his power displayed?

traveling by boat/train-Are they traveling at different points on the continent?

the factions/the army etc-is the army fighting the anti-witch faction and the side that wants the light bringer?

the light bringer-seems like theres a "holy" history for them. Did they die out and thought lost for good?

the stag?

the meadow? is the meadow a real place or a magical place they go to?


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> I’ve watched the first two episodes and do like the aesthetic, and that its a great departure from medieval western Europe. The story seems standard YA adventure
> 
> but the accents are excrutiating and had disjunct of setting and sound had me a little discombobulated



Heh, I noticed that. Lots of British accents in this Russian-inspired fantasy land!

But to my American ears, the British accent is linked indelibly to fantasy, so it was noticeable, but not jarring. If I had any Russian heritage, I'd probably be miffed a bit.


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## Ryujin (Apr 28, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> I’ve watched the first two episodes and do like the aesthetic, and that its a great departure from medieval western Europe. The story seems standard YA adventure
> 
> but the accents are excrutiating and had disjunct of setting and sound which had me a little discombobulated



I was just coming here to write the first part and now I don't have to  

With respect to the accents v. the setting I find it odd, but not jarringly so. i can get past it with little effort. I am, however, expecting a Morrus post to the effect, "< grumble grumble something > bad guy always English accent < grumble >"


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I was just coming here to write the first part and now I don't have to
> 
> With respect to the accents v. the setting I find it odd, but not jarringly so. i can get past it with little effort. I am, however, expecting a Morrus post to the effect, "< grumble grumble something > bad guy always English accent < grumble >"



Well, both the good guys and the bad guys had British accents . . . . it's a heavily British cast!


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## SehanineMoonbow (Apr 29, 2021)

I read the books a few years ago. I absolutely loved the Six of Crows duology (actually read it first), then read Shadow and Bone, and the the King of Scars duology when it came up. Shadow and Bone was okay, but not as good as Six of Crows, imho.

The Netflix adaptation is different from the books, as it blends Six of Crows and S&B together, and also fleshes out some backstory. I get the impression that the Netflix adaptation is the story Bardugo would tell if she could go back and rewrite S&B. I was skeptical at first, but I really am enjoying the show (haven't quite finished it yet), and while I am usually the type to get frustrated when a screen adaptation of a novel series doesn't "follow the script", in this case, I think it was for the best. S&B wouldn't have stood well on its own had they followed the books, though Six of Crows probably could. 

There are characters in the books that haven't been introduced in the show yet, and I am eager to see them appear. And can I just say that Kit Young does an excellent job playing Jesper? I could watch him all day.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 29, 2021)

_why would ben barnes character be so powerful and why would anyone want to see his power displayed?_
His power is explained in ep 7.  Don't understand the second part of your question.

_traveling by boat/train-Are they traveling at different points on the continent?_
Yes.

_the factions/the army etc-is the army fighting the anti-witch faction and the side that wants the light bringer?_
Ravka, Alina and Mal's home, is at war with its northern neighbours, Fjerdan (spelling?) The Fjerdans hate grisha and, I guess, are at war with Ravka partly because they are dirty witch lovers. Ravka also keeps some forces next to The Fold, presumably to protect the important sand skiff dock and to provide escorts to the skiffs when they travel the Fold. The army is split into 2 arms - 1st army (the normies) and 2nd army (the grisha.) They are all loyal* Ravkans.

The Fold split Ravka into Old Ravka (where Alina and Mal are from) and West Ravka. West Ravka is considering seceding from Ravka and want the Fold to stay put so they can do so easily. So when word of a Lightbringer reaches them the secessionists decide they want her dead.

*some may not be as loyal as they should.

_the light bringer-seems like theres a "holy" history for them. Did they die out and thought lost for good?_
There's a prophecy about the Lightbringer. (There's always a prophecy.) There's nothing to suggest that there were lightbringers in the past. I'd say the implication is that Alina is the first. But maybe not.

_the stag?_
Important magical beastie. Created by a powerful grisha many centuries ago. Explained more in eps 6-8.

_the meadow? is the meadow a real place or a magical place they go to?_
The meadow where Mal and Alina are seen running as children? It's a real place, next to the orphanage. It's used a metaphor for Alina and Mal's love and their quest for freedom from oppression. But the things we are shown there actually happened in the their shared childhood.


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## Marc_C (Apr 29, 2021)

Really liked episode 5. The last scene is very unexpected. The perfect example of Failing Forward. Three more to go.


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## Faolyn (Apr 30, 2021)

Just finished episode 5 and loving it, although I'm preferring the Crows to Alina and Mal. I really want to read the novels now.


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## Morrus (Apr 30, 2021)

How YA is this?


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## Marc_C (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> How YA is this?



What does YA mean?


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## Alzrius (Apr 30, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> What is YA?



It means young adult, as a category of fiction.


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## Faolyn (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> How YA is this?



Fairly graphic violence, prostitution, some racism, and pretty passionate kissing, but they cut away before the sex scene.


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## Marc_C (Apr 30, 2021)

It's actually more adult than I would have thought. It's a harsh world but it's not GoT.


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## Morrus (Apr 30, 2021)

Faolyn said:


> Fairly graphic violence, prostitution, some racism, and pretty passionate kissing, but they cut away before the sex scene.



I meant more in terms of the casting. I heard it was all very young?


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## Marc_C (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I meant more in terms of the casting. I heard it was all very young?



They are not in their teens (I can't watch that kind go show anymore). I would say the characters are in early to mid-20s.


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## Faolyn (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I meant more in terms of the casting. I heard it was all very young?



Oh, sorry. I'm not a great judge of ages, but the main characters could all be in their late teens to early twenties. 



Spoiler: Characters, Spoilered For Size


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## Ryujin (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I meant more in terms of the casting. I heard it was all very young?



A lot of late teens/early 20s to reflect a world with mandatory conscription, and a high mortality rate.


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## Marc_C (Apr 30, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> A lot of late teens/early 20s to reflect a world with mandatory conscription, and a high mortality rate.



Very good analysis. That also explains why they are so proficient at what they do for their age.


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## darjr (Apr 30, 2021)

I dig it


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## Tonguez (Apr 30, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I meant more in terms of the casting. I heard it was all very young?



its a very CW like cast, the main characters are all 20 somethings (maybe the General I'd put at 30s) but there's a pretty good spread of support characters.
The setting helps to keep the characters interesting and without too much annoying angst


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## Tonguez (Apr 30, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Very good analysis. That also explains why they are so proficient at what they do for their age.




The queens attendant (make up artist) said she’d been using her magic powers since she was 3 and in training since 11, so even if she’s just 20 thats 17 years of practice.
I assume that Ravka starts training its soldiers while they’re still children too - was that the purpose of the Orphanage?.


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## payn (Apr 30, 2021)

Finished it up. Think got a little weaker again towards the end. I think a few more episodes could have done well. Not liking this new era of 8 episode seasons...


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## Ryujin (Apr 30, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> The queens attendant (make up artist) said she’d been using her magic powers since she was 3 and in training since 11, so even if she’s just 20 thats 17 years of practice.
> I assume that Ravka starts training its soldiers while they’re still children too - was that the purpose of the Orphanage?.



I think that the orphanage is just a natural outgrowth of the high mortality rate. As a government in that situation, if you don't do something to support orphans, then that's many fewer conscripts later in life, because they just won't survive.


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## DeviousQuail (Apr 30, 2021)

It was pretty good. The climax in ep 8 could use some work but I wouldn't call it bad either. 

With the exception of a couple moments in ep 8 I felt like they did a good job showing us the Grisha magic, how it fits in the world, and the limits it can reach. It's powerful, but technology has drastically reduced it's effectiveness and there are ways to physically prevent magic use. Really well done in that regard.

There is a "persecuted mages" portion to this, which I find rarely stands up to scrutiny, but the show handles it well. The Grisha are persecuted but more from outsiders than their own country. They also seem to live better than the average person by the look of their clothes, the decadence of the Little Palace, and the way they carry themselves. 

The casting was pretty good. I found most everyone believable in their roles. I was worried it might be a bit CW-esque with so many young looking folks in lead roles but unlike the CW no one is pretending they're in high school either.

My nitpicks:

Nina and Matthias' storyline is so tangential to everything else that it was hard to care. You can see where they are going with it but you could remove them from this season and only have one minor plot point to rewrite.
They needed to do a better job of showing how the geography of the world impacted character motivations. I know they show it at least once but I needed to look up the map online to get a better idea of the political motivations and ramifications of the Fold.
Seems like those bullet proof outfits would be useful on people other than the Grisha.
Seems like those Grisha would benefit from carrying a gun or three with them.
I might need to read the books to understand the Stag better. It felt so... odd. I get why it's important to the story but in world building terms it's so out of left field for me.


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## SehanineMoonbow (May 1, 2021)

Morrus said:


> How YA is this?



The show is rated TV 14. There is some nudity--though nothing graphic--violence, sexually situations, though again, not overly graphic. 

The books are in the YA genre (I personally enjoy a good YA), and, tbh, the Shadow & Bone trilogy was quite tropey (the show did a better job of downplaying most of the time), but the Six of Crows duology, while still YA, holds up a lot better. I think that it why they blended the two.


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## Morrus (May 1, 2021)

SehanineMoonbow said:


> The show is rated TV 14. There is some nudity--though nothing graphic--violence, sexually situations, though again, not overly graphic.



My worry is it skews too young for me not too adult. 

Nothing about how graphic it is; it's more about the cast. It's just that pretty fresh-faced teenagers and young-20s don't tend to hold my attention much. _Game of Thrones _is more my personal preference than _Hunger Games_.


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## Gradine (May 1, 2021)

The show characters are quite a bit older than the book characters (none of which top, like... 17). The age thing was definitely the weirdest part of the books, and it's nice to see the characters seeming to be in their early 20's. It's pretty hard to buy Kaz Brekker as a 16-year-old, for instance


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> What does YA mean?



Young Adult. Stories aimed at, and appropriate for, teenagers.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> The queens attendant (make up artist) said she’d been using her magic powers since she was 3 and in training since 11, so even if she’s just 20 thats 17 years of practice.
> I assume that Ravka starts training its soldiers while they’re still children too - was that the purpose of the Orphanage?.



The orphanage's purpose wasn't to train soldiers, but it was certainly intended as a source of conscripts. If you don't test as a grisha and get taken to the Little Palace, you're very likely to end up a soldier. The headmaster (?) of the orphanage tells Alina to practice her illustration skills, so that she can wield a pencil rather than a gun . . . the woman was actively trying to give at least some of the kids skills that would keep them off the front lines. Ironically, this leads to Alina becoming a mapmaker for the army, and getting sent to the front lines.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> It was pretty good. The climax in ep 8 could use some work but I wouldn't call it bad either.
> 
> With the exception of a couple moments in ep 8 I felt like they did a good job showing us the Grisha magic, how it fits in the world, and the limits it can reach. It's powerful, but technology has drastically reduced it's effectiveness and there are ways to physically prevent magic use. Really well done in that regard.
> 
> ...




The "persecuted mages" storyline does stand up to scrutiny. It's part of the Darkling's motivation, to make grisha useful to the kingdom so that they won't be persecuted. He succeeds, but only by making grisha indentured servants to the crown. The grisha were persecuted in the past, they are now well-treated, favored servants . . . but have no options other than to join the 2nd Army, in Ravka at least. With the disaster in the final episode, it's hinted that the grisha's favored status might be coming to an end, with a return to persecution.
The bullet proof outfits are likely expensive, too expensive to "waste" on the 2nd Army soldiers.
The grisha would likely benefit from carrying weapons . . . but their point of pride is the mastery of their elemental powers. There is dialog about how the grisha were once worth 50 regular soldiers, but then as gun technology improved, their worth has lessened a bit. It seems that firearms tech has been improving rapidly with the neverending war with Fjerda.
The stag is a remnant of an ancient time with grisha significantly more powerful than those of the present day. The "powerful, ancient mages" trope. An ancient, powerful grisha "saint" created the stag, and other magical animals, out of his own bones (how does that work?) . . . killing one of these animals and incorporating it's bones into your body significantly amplifies a grisha's powers. This is where the "bone" in "Shadow & Bone" comes from.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

Morrus said:


> My worry is it skews too young for me not too adult.
> 
> Nothing about how graphic it is; it's more about the cast. It's just that pretty fresh-faced teenagers and young-20s don't tend to hold my attention much. _Game of Thrones _is more my personal preference than _Hunger Games_.



The main cast is Hollywood young and beautiful, not much different from other similar shows. There is variety, in age, among the supporting cast, but our heroes Mal and Alina are young (late teens, early 20s). The Crows (rogues) are also young, but don't come across quite as young as Mal and Alina (mid-to-late 20s, early 30's for Brekker maybe). The villain is hundreds of years old! (But the actor, Ben Barnes, was in his late 30's during filming)

As an old guy myself, the character ages seemed appropriate to the story and not jarring.


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## Gradine (May 1, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Young Adult. Stories aimed at, and appropriate for, teenagers.



I would include college-aged adults as well. It should be noted that the best of YA treats its audience's intelligence with respect; the genre typically isn't nearly as chaste or straightedge than content that a lot of parents might consider "appropriate" for teenagers.


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## Gradine (May 1, 2021)

That said, they really didn't play up enough how sickly Alina is before she starts using her powers. Mal comments that she looks different at some point, but that's the most we get. We learn that Grisha become sick when they don't use their powers, though that sickness can manifest in different ways. It's not a major plot point, by any means, but it's got a nice character moment as payoff later down the road.

The Nina/Matthias scenes are kind of a casualty of blending the two stories together. Those scenes are all flashbacks in Six of Crows, but if you've got other on-screen action happening at the same time, you might as well toss them in. As it is they're kind of a C-Plot, but Nina especially plays a major role in keeping the plight of the Grisha relevant for the Crows.

My one real gripe is that they made Kaz too serious. !Book Kaz is definitely the most serious member of the team (I mean, at least until Mathias joins up) but he's still a wise ass and he especially likes teasing Inej.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

Gradine said:


> I would include college-aged adults as well. It should be noted that the best of YA treats its audience's intelligence with respect; the genre typically isn't nearly as chaste or straightedge than content that a lot of parents might consider "appropriate" for teenagers.



Well . . . yes, but that's not the point of the YA classification. It's to designate stories aimed at teenagers.

You're right, that good YA is equally entertaining to_ not-young_ adults as well. It often gets an unfair rap as not-serious fiction or kiddie stuff.

YA, as a genre or classification, is inconsistent with what is "appropriate" for young adults . . . you're also right that some of the stories get pretty racy and/or violent, but avoid graphic depictions of either.

But still, labeling something as YA means you're aiming it at teen readers and you're saying it contains appropriate content for teens.


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## Ryujin (May 1, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Well . . . yes, but that's not the point of the YA classification. It's to designate stories aimed at teenagers.
> 
> You're right, that good YA is equally entertaining to_ not-young_ adults as well. It often gets an unfair rap as not-serious fiction or kiddie stuff.
> 
> ...



And the YA classification is a fairly recent thing. Looking back over the years at other stories "A Wizard of Earthsea", for example, could easily fit this classification while standing alone. Not so much with the sequels. It's sort of a teenaged Harry Potter story with morality and spirituality substituting for action.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> And the YA classification is a fairly recent thing. Looking back over the years at other stories "A Wizard of Earthsea", for example, could easily fit this classification while standing alone. Not so much with the sequels. It's sort of a teenaged Harry Potter story with morality and spirituality substituting for action.



Oh yeah! Back in the ancient days (1980s) when I was a kid, YA wasn't really a thing in publishing. But there were certainly stories that would have fit into the genre, and even have been retroactively classified as YA.

Which, IMO, was a good thing! My local community and school libraries had no idea which sci-fi and fantasy books were appropriate for young readers, and often assumed the entire genre was for kids . . . . boy, I read some stuff that was NOT appropriate for teens when I was a teen . . . and I feel that I'm a better person because of it!


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## Ryujin (May 1, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Oh yeah! Back in the ancient days (1980s) when I was a kid, YA wasn't really a thing in publishing. But there were certainly stories that would have fit into the genre, and even have been retroactively classified as YA.
> 
> Which, IMO, was a good thing! My local community and school libraries had no idea which sci-fi and fantasy books were appropriate for young readers, and often assumed the entire genre was for kids . . . . boy, I read some stuff that was NOT appropriate for teens when I was a teen . . . and I feel that I'm a better person because of it!



I have an excellent example of school officials thinking that any SciFi/Fantasy was just for kids. In middle school (grade 7) I found a book in the school library called "The Cabal" by Philip Dunn. The cover looked interesting, so I signed it out. A quick summary: Humans on Earth are suffering from increasing infertility. An alien race is secretly trying to take over the world. Opening scene is the leader of the protagonists, a criminal group known as The Cabal, fleeing after having robbed a sperm bank. Which has exploded. There's a flood.

It didn't get any better from there.


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## DeviousQuail (May 1, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> The "persecuted mages" storyline does stand up to scrutiny. It's part of the Darkling's motivation, to make grisha useful to the kingdom so that they won't be persecuted. He succeeds, but only by making grisha indentured servants to the crown. The grisha were persecuted in the past, they are now well-treated, favored servants . . . but have no options other than to join the 2nd Army, in Ravka at least. With the disaster in the final episode, it's hinted that the grisha's favored status might be coming to an end, with a return to persecution.



I agree that it stands up to scrutiny in this show (hard to tell if you thought I was saying it didn't or if you are just summarizing the point. Either way we agree.) I just know there are a lot of stories that make use of the "persecuted mages" trope and it often just doesn't make sense. So whenever I see it in media I always worry that it's going to ruin the story for me. 


Dire Bare said:


> The bullet proof outfits are likely expensive, too expensive to "waste" on the 2nd Army soldiers.



No doubt. It also emphasizes the difference in privilege the Grisha have over the common folk and soldiers which is important to the story. But let's be real, Ravka is losing a war where their enemies don't have Grisha, just guns. So make as many bullet proof outfits as you can, get them on your front line troops, and kick the Fjerdan's teeth in.


Dire Bare said:


> The grisha would likely benefit from carrying weapons . . . but their point of pride is the mastery of their elemental powers. There is dialog about how the grisha were once worth 50 regular soldiers, but then as gun technology improved, their worth has lessened a bit. It seems that firearms tech has been improving rapidly with the neverending war with Fjerda.



And if your one weakness is being prevented from clapping your hands it makes sense to carry some one-handed weapons. But pride has made a fool of many militaries in history so it's not exactly a plot hole.


Dire Bare said:


> The stag is a remnant of an ancient time with grisha significantly more powerful than those of the present day. The "powerful, ancient mages" trope. An ancient, powerful grisha "saint" created the stag, and other magical animals, out of his own bones (how does that work?) . . . killing one of these animals and incorporating it's bones into your body significantly amplifies a grisha's powers. This is where the "bone" in "Shadow & Bone" comes from.



I guess I'm just left with the question of why this was included at all. Why were Grisha more powerful back in the day? Why store your immense power in a creature made from your own bones? Why did the darkling not already search for the stag long ago if he wanted that power? Does mystical stag bone have a shelf life once it's been harvested? Could you remove this entirely from the story and instead incorporate some Grisha ritual/Fabricator device that enables the power sharing/stealing instead?

It's probably not worth the energy to worry about but it came off as odd. Still liked the show though. Hopefully, a second season is in the works.


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## Eyes of Nine (May 1, 2021)

Whoops, gotta unwatch this thread looks like it's gettting into spoiler territory.


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## Dire Bare (May 2, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> I guess I'm just left with the question of why this was included at all. Why were Grisha more powerful back in the day? Why store your immense power in a creature made from your own bones? Why did the darkling not already search for the stag long ago if he wanted that power? Does mystical stag bone have a shelf life once it's been harvested? Could you remove this entirely from the story and instead incorporate some Grisha ritual/Fabricator device that enables the power sharing/stealing instead?



We don't get a lot of answers about the ancient grisha saint who made the stag, it's something that has passed into myth and it's hinted that modern day grisha don't know the answers. Most grisha consider the stag a myth, and some openly question the general when he sets out to find it.

The stag doesn't store power, it amplifies power. The Darkling doesn't need it to amplify his own shadow magic, as he is already incredibly powerful. He doesn't seek the stag until he learns of the sun summoner, Alina, and wants to use the stag's bones to be able to control both his own and Alina's powers simultaneously.

He claims (lies) that he wants to amplify their powers to end the Shadow Fold . . . when really he wants to weaponize it against his enemies and conquer the world. In the scene where he finally takes the stag's bones and has his crafter grisha integrate them into both him and Alina . . . he's not 100% sure it's going to work, until it does!

Why did the ancient grisha saint make the stag, and other amplifying animals? We don't know the answer to that, and . . . we don't need to. Not everything needs to be explained for the story to be good and make sense.


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## Ryujin (May 2, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> We don't get a lot of answers about the ancient grisha saint who made the stag, it's something that has passed into myth and it's hinted that modern day grisha don't know the answers. Most grisha consider the stag a myth, and some openly question the general when he sets out to find it.
> 
> The stag doesn't store power, it amplifies power. The Darkling doesn't need it to amplify his own shadow magic, as he is already incredibly powerful. He doesn't seek the stag until he learns of the sun summoner, Alina, and wants to use the stag's bones to be able to control both his own and Alina's powers simultaneously.
> 
> ...



Given that The Darkling, himself, is an amplifier I suspect there's a lot more he knows about the saint who made The Stag than has been let on so far. I haven't read the books so no idea if there's any sort of payoff to that, or if it was an anomaly that is just never explained.


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## Dire Bare (May 2, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Given that The Darkling, himself, is an amplifier I suspect there's a lot more he knows about the saint who made The Stag than has been let on so far. I haven't read the books so no idea if there's any sort of payoff to that, or if it was an anomaly that is just never explained.



Possibly. The Darkling has definitely done his research and probably knows the most out of all the grisha, save perhaps for his mother. But I also suspect there is a lot he doesn't know, as records were lost and stories became myth.

I haven't read the stories either, but it seems that the Darkling, and perhaps Alina, are in the same class as the ancient grisha saint . . . but don't have the knowledge or experience (yet) to pull off the amazing things he did, at least according to myth. The Darkling is an amplifier, immortal, and has amazing control over shadow . . . the very end of the last episode implies that perhaps the Darkling didn't need Alina or the stag's bones after all to gain control over the Shadow Fold . . . . .


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## SehanineMoonbow (May 4, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Well . . . yes, but that's not the point of the YA classification. It's to designate stories aimed at teenagers.
> 
> You're right, that good YA is equally entertaining to_ not-young_ adults as well. It often gets an unfair rap as not-serious fiction or kiddie stuff.
> 
> ...



YA really does get an unfair rep. I read both YA and adult fantasy. I read adult fantasy as a teenager, as well. Lately, I've actually been reading a lot of YA.


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## DrunkonDuty (May 4, 2021)

SehanineMoonbow said:


> YA really does get an unfair rep. I read both YA and adult fantasy. I read adult fantasy as a teenager, as well. Lately, I've actually been reading a lot of YA.



Me too. There is some genuinely good stuff there.


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## Gradine (May 4, 2021)

"I see now that dismissing YA books because you’re not a young adult is a little bit like refusing to watch thrillers on the grounds that you’re not a policeman or a dangerous criminal, and as a consequence, I’ve discovered a previously ignored room at the back of the bookstore that’s filled with masterpieces I’ve never heard of.” - Nick Hornby


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## Ryujin (May 4, 2021)

SehanineMoonbow said:


> YA really does get an unfair rep. I read both YA and adult fantasy. I read adult fantasy as a teenager, as well. Lately, I've actually been reading a lot of YA.



Unfortunately, YA is frequently used as a dismissive term. It makes for a handy shorthand, as when using Punk, Ska, or Heavy Metal to describe a piece of music, but shouldn't be used dismissively.


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## wicked cool (May 4, 2021)

does this season finish book 1. Will I be lost if I start book 2?


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## Gradine (May 4, 2021)

The story diverges enough that you'd probably want to read the first book first. Or at least the last third of the book; season 1 veers a bit off those rails. 

You'll also have to deal with Mal being a complete doucebag. God, Book!Mal sucks so much.

Oh yeah, and the book versions of Alina and Mal are not half-Shu and half-Zemeni, respectively; that's new to the show as well, in case you get confused they stop bringing that stuff up.

Kaz, Inej, Jesper, Nina, and Matthias aren't in these books either; they're from a sequel series Six of Crows


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## SehanineMoonbow (May 6, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> does this season finish book 1. Will I be lost if I start book 2?



Likely heh. The show is quite different from the books in a number of ways. I would actually recommend reading Six of Crows first, as it is more likely to get you invested.


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## MarkB (May 8, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> No doubt. It also emphasizes the difference in privilege the Grisha have over the common folk and soldiers which is important to the story. But let's be real, Ravka is losing a war where their enemies don't have Grisha, just guns. So make as many bullet proof outfits as you can, get them on your front line troops, and kick the Fjerdan's teeth in.



The bulletproof outfits are made by Fabricators, who are Grisha and under the General's control. He doesn't want them outfitting the regular army - that would just make the Second Army even less important than they were already becoming. And even if he were overruled, there probably aren't enough of them to create such outfits in large enough quantities to make a big difference.


Dire Bare said:


> The stag doesn't store power, it amplifies power. The Darkling doesn't need it to amplify his own shadow magic, as he is already incredibly powerful. He doesn't seek the stag until he learns of the sun summoner, Alina, and wants to use the stag's bones to be able to control both his own and Alina's powers simultaneously.



I think he just didn't think the stag existed until he learned that Alina had dreamed of it and drawn it. His mother was keen enough to keep him ignorant of it that she conspired behind his back to kill those who were going to tell him of its existence, because she feared that with its amplification he would become too powerful for anyone to oppose.


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## Zardnaar (May 10, 2021)

Just watched the first 4 episodes. Not bad had to finish The Sopranos first.


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