# History's most underrated inventions.



## Dark Jezter (Nov 11, 2005)

Everybody knows about the major inventions throughout history like the wheel, gunpowder, the steam engine, electrical power, etc.  But this very interesting article focuses on inventions that, even though we may not think of them as especially major discoveries, actually had far-reaching effects that helped shape history.  Check it out:

http://encarta.msn.com/column_UnderRatedMain/History's_Most_Underrated_Inventions.html


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## Del (Nov 11, 2005)

The pencil and ball point pen. I don't know who developed writing graphite, but I do know the ball point pen was a WWII invention for bomber craft navigators.

I can't imagine developing games with a quill and ink.


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 11, 2005)

Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin?


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 11, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> I can't imagine developing games with a quill and ink.



How about with hammer and chisel?


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## Wild Gazebo (Nov 12, 2005)

I'm going with...the fence.


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## TracerBullet42 (Nov 12, 2005)

I've always been a big fan of the water heater...

Thanks, Edwin Ruud!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2005)

Air conditioning. Definately air conditioning.

Demiurge out.


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## Rel (Nov 12, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin?




Bombay Saphire Gin?


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 12, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Bombay Saphire Gin?



Eh?


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## Bront (Nov 12, 2005)

Everyone always underrates the toilet.  Life would be different without it.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 12, 2005)

It's funny, but my first reaction upon seeing the OP was "barbed wire".  I click on the link and there it is at number 7.  That author's an astute dude.  Barbed wire completely changed half of America.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 12, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Everyone always underrates the toilet.  Life would be different without it.



Close. I'd say it's them toilet cakes.


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## Bront (Nov 12, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Close. I'd say it's them toilet cakes.



Yeah, those are yummy.


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## Rel (Nov 12, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Eh?




It's a liquor.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Nov 12, 2005)

How about paper?


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## buzzard (Nov 12, 2005)

Personally I'd probably have to dispute his claims on the longbow. It was a very specialized weapon requiring a lifetime of training. It also only was applicable in certain regions where yew wood was common. I'd probably say the crossbow was more significant. 

After all the Pope did say that crossbows were bad since they were too good at leveling the playing field. Longbowmen were a singular British resource, crossbowmen were everywhere. The changes instituted by the crossbow more directly led into those coming from firearms. The idea of a weapon which was very powerful, but could be taught reasonably easily is what changed warfare. The longbow doesn't fit this bill. 

buzzard


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## jaerdaph (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm going with Urine Gone.


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## Aust Diamondew (Nov 13, 2005)

Can't believe he lists the longbow.  If anything it's one of the most over rated medieval weapons of all time.


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## FickleGM (Nov 13, 2005)

I am nominating the d20 ...


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## ssampier (Nov 13, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Everyone always underrates the toilet.  Life would be different without it.




I would say indoor plumping, but that's just me.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 13, 2005)

Aust Diamondew said:
			
		

> Can't believe he lists the longbow.  If anything it's one of the most over rated medieval weapons of all time.



 Look on the bright side: at least he didn't nominate the katana.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin?




Lowered the cost of deseeding cotton bolls, and so made cotton plantations more profitable. Which made keeping slaves economically viable again. Changed socio-economic development in the South dramatically.


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## Bront (Nov 13, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> I would say indoor plumping, but that's just me.



Nah, they wanted underrated.  Indoor plumbing has been used to compair the next best thing too.

What is indoor plumping?


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## ssampier (Nov 13, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Nah, they wanted underrated.  Indoor plumbing has been used to compair the next best thing too.
> 
> What is indoor plumping?




A type of fruit  

It's strange how I always misspell the easy words. At least my rogue looks good in his red makeup.


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## Galethorn (Nov 13, 2005)

I'd like to nominate metal.

Yeah, metal. Sure, it's not exactly underrated, but most people take it for granted, assuming that 'they' just find lumps of it in the ground and make it into I-beams and engine blocks...

I've got a lot of respect for the guy who noticed that weird green stuff seeped out of certain rocks in very hot fires, and when the green stuff cooled, it could be squished around and made into stuff more easily than stone could...and it looked nice when you scraped the green surface off.

I'd also like to nominate the candle; longer lasting than a torch, bright, and not prone to make much smoke, meaning they're good indoors. If not for candles, the great inventors, philosophers, and so forth of the past would have been forced to stop writing things down at sunset and wait until dawn to start again.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

The mouldboard plow.

Combined with the horse collar it opened up literally millions of square miles of agricultural land. Without it the heavy, thick, and ancient root systems clogging German, Russian, and American Great Plains soils would never have gotten plowed at all.

Why is the horse collar necessary here? Oxen are simply not strong enough to pull a mouldboard through the type of soil we're talking about.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

Galethorn said:
			
		

> I'd like to nominate metal.




What about ceramics? Pottery to begin with, progressing to porcelin and china in the long run. Led to advances in fuels and ovens, which impacted metal extraction and use. If not for the invention of the kiln (used to fire pottery) and charcoal (to fuel kilns) smelting iron would've remained impossible.

Pottery also made the transportation of oils and wines over great distances possible. Matter of fact, vases have been found at the bottom of the Medditerranean still filled with olive oil and resinated wine. Had a big impact on trade, which in turn led to advances in naval architecture and communications.


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## was (Nov 13, 2005)

How about roads?


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## Ranger REG (Nov 13, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> How about paper?



Very underrated. Without paper, we wouldn't have _Charmin._

Imagine using a papyrus.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> How about roads?




Now there's a good point.

The Aztecs had the wheel, but they lived in terrain wheels were of little use in, and they saw no need to change things so they could use their wheels. The Spanish had wheels and had developed the technology, infrastructure, and society necessary for their use. They needed wheels, so they needed to change things in Central Mexico so they could use their wheels.

The first culture, the Sumerian, to use wheels had the good fortune to live in a part of the world where wheels could be used with little change to the environment. Southern Iraq is flat. Central Iraq is mostly flat. The highlands and hills (especially to the west) are gently sloped. Wheeled vehicles were useful, and soon came to dominate in transportation and trade.

Outside Mesopotamia was another matter. But, wheels proved so useful people figured out a way to get wheeled vehicles into areas they otherwise couldn't go. First by leveling a sort of track through rough terrain, later by developing road construction techniques that in ancient times culminated in the famous roads of Rome.

And yes, roads are built. Even something as basic as a city street is a complex construction project requiring many steps.

Then you have all the things that come with road construction. Surveying - of a type more involved than surveying a field, basic topology, soil chemistry, hydrology, civil engineering as a whole. What sort of load can the ground take? What sort of foundation is needed so the road can handle the expected load? What about drainage? Many construction techniques originally developed for roads would later be adapted to constructing walls and buildings.

And good roads opened up trade routes that would otherwise have been closed. Rivers are great at transporting goods and people, but they don't always go where you need them to. You've got the resources you can build roads that can go most anywhere. In Medieval Europe the problem with transporting goods by road had more to do with tolls than any other cause. With her strong cental government 14th century England could send more trade by road, and more profitably than any other part of Europe.

Roads are definitely under appreciated.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 13, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Roads are definitely under appreciated.



There's a reason for that: potholes.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Very underrated. Without paper, we wouldn't have _Charmin._
> 
> Imagine using a papyrus.




Or leaves.

In Arab lands one eats with one's right hand, and 'chases away cling-ons' with the left hand. The practice of taking a thief's right hand as punishment for theft was, for all intents and purposes, a sentence of death by starvation. You never use your left hand to eat from the communal plate.

Now think of all the things we use paper for. If you're ever caught out in the woods on a chilly night, and you have a copy of the day's newspaper on you, wrap the newsprint around your body next to the skin, then put your clothes on over it. It'll keep you warm. The Sunday _New York Times_ should suffice for a troop of boyscouts. 

And who can forget the fun of working with papier machie?


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> There's a reason for that: potholes.




In the case of potholes "undermined" works better.


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 13, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> How about paper?



No love for the stone slab, eh?


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 13, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Or leaves.
> 
> And who can forget the fun of working with papier machie?



My sister has a talent for leaf machie.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 13, 2005)

I didn't know chariots were under-appreciated. I've always had a very healthy respect for the chariot as an instrument of war.


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## mythusmage (Nov 13, 2005)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> I didn't know chariots were under-appreciated. I've always had a very healthy respect for the chariot as an instrument of war.




Over rated trash. Flimsy, easy to upset, couldn't handle rough terrain worth crap, used up resouces like nobody's business. For every warrior carried by a chariot an army could field two to four cavalrymen. And cavalry is tons more maneuverable.

So why did people use chariots for so long? Because until the 3rd Assyrian Empire (the one the Medes and Chaldeans trashed) nobody had the courage to try riding horses instead of using them to pull chariots.

And let me point out that when certain Indo-European tribes were introducing the ancient civilizations to the chariot, other Indo-European tribes were actually riding horses. Thing is, they're the ones who drove the chariot using tribes out of the Indo-European heartland.

BTW, don't give me any guff about horses being too small at first to carry riders. Horses have always been large enough to carry riders. Those studly heroes of yore were simply lousy riders.


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## Ferret (Nov 13, 2005)

What about the map?


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 13, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> What about the map?



 Or longitude and latitude.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 13, 2005)

That's pretty cool, Mythus.


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## was (Nov 13, 2005)

Interesting history.


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## Jesus_marley (Nov 14, 2005)

What about dice?

Think how dice changed the world...


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## Ranger REG (Nov 14, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> In Arab lands one eats with one's right hand, and 'chases away cling-ons' with the left hand. The practice of taking a thief's right hand as punishment for theft was, for all intents and purposes, a sentence of death by starvation. You never use your left hand to eat from the communal plate.



Yeah, yeah, just another case of discrimination against lefties.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 14, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> How about paper?




Paper *clips*.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm convinced the film industry could not have come into existence before the invention of gaffer's tape.


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## Joshua Randall (Nov 15, 2005)

It's funny how many of these "overlooked inventions" are utterly crucial in the _Civilization_ computer game series.

You start with irrigation (not yet mentioned), mining, and roads.

Pottery is one of the first important advances you get.

Chariots were (in Civ1) the first kick-ass military unit you can build.

Writing opens up huge sections of the tech tree.

Etc.

I knew all those thousands of hours I spend playing Civ would come in handy some day!


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## Rel (Nov 15, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> I knew all those thousands of hours I spend playing Civ would come in handy some day!




I spent a few hours last night playing the latest version at a friend's house and from what I've seen so far I'll be playing a few thousand more in the next few months.  It rocks.

And Ghandi is no longer a total jerk like he was in the original.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Nov 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I spent a few hours last night playing the latest version at a friend's house and from what I've seen so far I'll be playing a few thousand more in the next few months.  It rocks.
> 
> And Ghandi is no longer a total jerk like he was in the original.




I managed to get myself slapped by Catherine the Great.  That was awesome.


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## Rel (Nov 15, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I managed to get myself slapped by Catherine the Great.  That was awesome.




I'd like to see a cage match between her and the Egyptian chick.


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## Prince Atom (Nov 16, 2005)

Yeah, I was going to respond to the person who mentioned roads by saying, "Bah, they're not important -- everyone starts with them! It's pottery you have to build up to." but someone beat me to it.

So you can get slapped by rival leaders in this latest (what is it? IV?) version? Whoa.

TWK
My computer is teh su><><or....


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## Lorgrom (Nov 16, 2005)

*Baby wipes*

My vote is for the lowly Baby Wipe, and the adult equlivent. If we ever run into alien lifeforms from another planet or dimension, we should use the Baby Wipe as a guage for how advanced they are   .


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## Ranger REG (Nov 16, 2005)

Lorgrom said:
			
		

> My vote is for the lowly Baby Wipe, and the adult equlivent. If we ever run into alien lifeforms from another planet or dimension, we should use the Baby Wipe as a guage for how advanced they are   .



Unless they invented poop-vac.


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## shaylon (Nov 17, 2005)

*Can't believe it took 44 posts!*



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Paper *clips*.




Great answer Olgar!  I read an article once about all the different things that paper clips are used for and how useful it can be.  I wholeheartedly agree.

I also would like to add that I disagree with chariots as well.  They weren't that useful.

-Shay


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 17, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Great answer Olgar!  I read an article once about all the different things that paper clips are used for and how useful it can be.  I wholeheartedly agree.




That is true.  In fact, if you happen to be McGuyver, you can turn a paper clip into a nuclear reactor capable of powering 10 city blocks.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 17, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> That is true.  In fact, if you happen to be McGuyver, you can turn a paper clip into a nuclear reactor capable of powering 10 city blocks.



Nah. The paper cllip alone only give the capability of powering just 5 city blocks.

But paper clip and gum wrapper foil, now that's some power....


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## Ferret (Nov 17, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Or longitude and latitude.



Yup, and glass. Glass is awesome*


*Doing a piece of coursework on materials, and I jsut realised much you can do with glass. Dope it with Lead and its RI increases drematically, Dope it with Boron and it becomes heat resistant, add a layer of Titanium dioxide and it cleans its self!


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## mythusmage (Nov 18, 2005)

Then you have the various metal glasses, transparent aluminum being one example. You also have transparent copper, transparent iron, transparent bronze, and transparent steel. Actually metallic oxides with additives, they have remarkable mechanical properties, and with a bit of 'stiffening' (the metal in crystalline form) can be used in many applications.

Bring the price of transparent steel down enough you could have 'crystal' bridges.


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## Darkness (Nov 18, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> The pencil and ball point pen. I don't know who developed writing graphite, but I do know the ball point pen was a WWII invention for bomber craft navigators.
> 
> I can't imagine developing games with a quill and ink.



 Me neither; I use a laptop these days. 

Yeah, I still use pencils too.


			
				Galethorn said:
			
		

> I'd like to nominate metal.



 Good point. I especially like ManOWar, but other bands are great as well.


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## Warrior Poet (Nov 18, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> add a layer of Titanium dioxide and it cleans its self!



Sweet, can I get a bathroom made with a layer of titanim dioxide?

Warrior Poet


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## buzzard (Nov 18, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Then you have the various metal glasses, transparent aluminum being one example. You also have transparent copper, transparent iron, transparent bronze, and transparent steel. Actually metallic oxides with additives, they have remarkable mechanical properties, and with a bit of 'stiffening' (the metal in crystalline form) can be used in many applications.
> 
> Bring the price of transparent steel down enough you could have 'crystal' bridges.




You are mixing terms inappropriately. 

Yes, you did get it right when you talked about metallic oxides, but you should realize that it is possible to make a "glass" out of a non oxide metal as well. A glass is merely a state in which a material has an amorphic structure. There are no crystals whatsoever. This is achieved by some complicated thermodynamic gobblydigook, that I won't explain here (it would take a while). Metallic oxides are generally the easiest thing to make into a glass, but there are plenty of alloys which can be used for this these days. In fact metallic glass golf club shafts are supposed to be rather popular. 

The advantage of a metallic glass is that it does wonders for the physical properties, because the lack of crystal structure disables the primary mechanism of deformation. 

buzzard


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## buzzard (Nov 18, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Yup, and glass. Glass is awesome*
> 
> 
> *Doing a piece of coursework on materials, and I jsut realised much you can do with glass. Dope it with Lead and its RI increases drematically, Dope it with Boron and it becomes heat resistant, add a layer of Titanium dioxide and it cleans its self!




I am curious what you mean by "cleans its self". 

buzzard


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 18, 2005)

Has indoor plumbing been mentioned?


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## Lonely Tylenol (Nov 18, 2005)

buzzard said:
			
		

> I am curious what you mean by "cleans its self".
> 
> buzzard



IIRC, titanium compounds catalyse the breakdown of organic materials that form films on them.  So a titanium-based paint in your kitchen will resist grease buildup longer than one that has no titanium because the oils are degraded into smaller, more volatile compounds over time in contact with the titanium.  A coating of titanium dioxide on glass would probably accomplish the same effect, degrading fingerprints that get smeared on it.


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## loki44 (Nov 18, 2005)

Bread.


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 19, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> Bread.



Butter.


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## dorentir (Nov 19, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Butter.




Hell with butter!  Civilization could not survive without BEER!

I think the typewriter was pretty revolutionary...So was carbon paper in it's time... both seem to have been killed by personal computers, however.  Eyeglasses were pretty important too.  How about domesticized animals like chickens and pigs?  Agriculture?  Or food preservation techniques like pickleing, salting, etc.


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## PieAndDragon (Nov 20, 2005)

The cup. Very important for my tea.


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## ssampier (Nov 20, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> Bread.




Sliced bread?


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## Dungannon (Nov 20, 2005)

I would like to nominate Duct Tape.


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## johnsemlak (Nov 20, 2005)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> I didn't know chariots were under-appreciated. I've always had a very healthy respect for the chariot as an instrument of war.




Wasn't the chariot an incredibly ineffective military unit?  They had horrible manueverability.  A single foot soldier could easily dodge a charging chariot.  

I'm no expert but I imagine basic cavalry, even before stirrups, must have been far more effective--more maneuverability, speed, and efficiency.

Perhaps it was signifiant in very early history (say, right around when 'civiliization' began around 4000 BC), before organized cavalry, or infantry for that matter.  I can't imagine it was important when professional armies began to appear.


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## Goblyn (Nov 20, 2005)

I always thought shoes were a really good idea.


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## diaglo (Nov 21, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> Bread.



Liquid Bread... aka... Beer


and hardened Bread... aka ... pretzels.


beer & pretzels = Good RPGs.


had some this weekend in part due to *JoeBlank*


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## glass (Nov 21, 2005)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Yup, and glass. Glass is awesome*



Why, thank you!   


glass.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Nov 22, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Wasn't the chariot an incredibly ineffective military unit?  They had horrible manueverability.  A single foot soldier could easily dodge a charging chariot.
> 
> I'm no expert but I imagine basic cavalry, even before stirrups, must have been far more effective--more maneuverability, speed, and efficiency.
> 
> Perhaps it was signifiant in very early history (say, right around when 'civiliization' began around 4000 BC), before organized cavalry, or infantry for that matter.  I can't imagine it was important when professional armies began to appear.




I'm no expert, either 

I was thinking that the chariot made a fast platform for one person to drive while another fires arrows or spears at infantry. Hmmm...perhaps a holdover from Civilization.


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## megamania (Nov 23, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Everybody knows about the major inventions throughout history like the wheel, gunpowder, the steam engine, electrical power, etc.  But this very interesting article focuses on inventions that, even though we may not think of them as especially major discoveries, actually had far-reaching effects that helped shape history.  Check it out:
> 
> http://encarta.msn.com/column_UnderRatedMain/History's_Most_Underrated_Inventions.html




Does anyone remember the Learning Channel's "Connections"?   It was all about a minor thing leading a major through simple connecting elements.   I don't remember specifics but I enjoyed the show while it lasted.


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## megamania (Nov 23, 2005)

Post-a-notes?


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 23, 2005)

Red Swingline staplers?


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Nov 23, 2005)

I think the key would be listing an invention that nobody thinks about.  Television, flight, roads, pottery, plumbing, etc., are all fairly commonly listed as important advances.

What about traffic lights?  Think about driving anywhere without them.

Think of the humble typewriter, and how it set the standard for modern information technology UI.

How many inventions are dependent on ball bearings?


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## Rel (Nov 23, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> How many inventions are dependent on ball bearings?




"It's all ball bearings these days."


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## Angel Tarragon (Nov 23, 2005)

The cellphone.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 24, 2005)

I don't know why I never said this before.

The most underrated and unappreciated and unsung invention:

The Pause button on almost every electronic devices. Without that, I could seriously damage myself if I have to watch the extended _LOTR_ film (one or all three) in one sitting, while ignoring nature calls.


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## cattoy (Nov 25, 2005)

I figure the most overlooked inventions are typically ones that have no physical form or no one set physical form.

Money, the abstraction of wealth that can be freely converted from form to form is pretty important.

Intellectual Property, or the ability to take credit and benefit from innovation is a driving force in encouraging innovation.

On an entirely unrelated tack, I'd like to thank Mr. Hugh Heffner for coming up with Playboy and everything associated with it.


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## Wild Gazebo (Nov 25, 2005)

That's funny...those are three things that I think are completely overrated.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Nov 25, 2005)

megamania said:
			
		

> Does anyone remember the Learning Channel's "Connections"?   It was all about a minor thing leading a major through simple connecting elements.   I don't remember specifics but I enjoyed the show while it lasted.




Awesome show.  Connections was hosted by James Burke, author of The Day The Universe Changed.  It looks at history in terms of relationships, rather than as a series of events ordered in time.

Also, I'll cast a vote for money.  I could imagine that a decent argument could be made that money makes possible not only modern society, but also many of the modern ideals like freedom, individuality, and human rights, by virtue of the divorce of value from material.


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## Starman (Nov 25, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Now there's a good point.
> 
> The Aztecs had the wheel, but they lived in terrain wheels were of little use in, and they saw no need to change things so they could use their wheels. The Spanish had wheels and had developed the technology, infrastructure, and society necessary for their use. They needed wheels, so they needed to change things in Central Mexico so they could use their wheels.




The Aztecs and well, everyone else living in the Americas pre-horse, also suffered from a distinct lack of draft animals which made the wheel a lot less practical. You can't have large carts or wagons without something to pull them.


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## mythusmage (Nov 25, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> The Aztecs and well, everyone else living in the Americas pre-horse, also suffered from a distinct lack of draft animals which made the wheel a lot less practical. You can't have large carts or wagons without something to pull them.




The Aztecs et. al. had lots of draft animals. Two legged draft animals, but able to pull carts and small wagons. They didn't have the terrain. Or the incentive to modify that terrain for wheeled vehicles.

When Cortez and his crew arrived the Aztec economy had not reached the point where something able to carry more than an individual man could was necessary. From all indications, the Aztecs never foresaw such a thing. Porters sufficed in the past, porters would suffice in the future. Had the Spaniards been delayed a century or so maybe the population of Central Mexico would've expanded to the point pushcarts or primitive wheelbarrows would've been necessary. Then again, maybe not.

Don't forget what the pre-Sumerian people of Mesopotamia were doing with cattle. And cattle, by and large, are a nasty, ill-tempered bunch compared to bison. Given a good reason the plains tribes might have made the transition from dogs to buffalo.


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Nov 25, 2005)

Mythusmage, I have to agree with Starman on the draft animals thing.

The ratio of force to feed you get out of a horse or ox is better than what you get out of a human.  Add a horse collar or yoke and you get even more disparity.

The Aztecs did not have easy access to bison, and even if they had, bison are not the easiest animal to domesticate.  To quote the article below, "Bison are very fast, powerful and mean...They are very hard to handle and they are very hard to own from an economic perspective."

http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/news/2002_fall/bison.htm

Keep in mind that it wasn't until the 1950s or '60s that ranchers effectively crossbred bison with domestic cattle to try and get the best qualities of both.  The result was a 3/4 bison hybrid.  Most people aren't aware that such crossbreeding took place.

As to the question of whether or not there was a pressing need to carry more than what a man can carry...the question is not one of need, but one of efficiency.  The collection and distribution of grains and other agricultural products are more effective in bulk.  An animal can actually pull far more than they would consume during the journey, and a single farmer can move a large volume of produce with limited assistance.


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## mythusmage (Nov 26, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Mythusmage, I have to agree with Starman on the draft animals thing.
> 
> The ratio of force to feed you get out of a horse or ox is better than what you get out of a human.  Add a horse collar or yoke and you get even more disparity.
> 
> ...




Thing is, the animal domestic cattle are descended from was even worse than bison. The gaur of South-East Asia, ancestor to the water buffalo, is considered one of the most dangerous animals to Man in the world. Yes, it would take some effort to domestic bison, but as we've learned from the domestication of the silver fox, not as much as you might think. Google 'horse whispering' sometime and check out all the zebra breeders on the web.

BTW, I was referring to the North American plains Indian when talking about bison. 

And don't underestimate humans. While not as 'capable' as horses or oxen, we're not all that weak either. With something like a handcart, wheelbarrow, or bicycle we've been known to haul substantial amounts. When necessity makes its demands known things tend to happen.


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## Rel (Nov 26, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> And don't underestimate humans. While not as 'capable' as horses or oxen, we're not all that weak either. With something like a handcart, wheelbarrow, or bicycle we've been known to haul substantial amounts. When necessity makes its demands known things tend to happen.




It's true!  I once saw Conan push this big windlass thing for like 20 years non-stop!


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## mythusmage (Nov 26, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It's true!  I once saw Conan push this big windlass thing for like 20 years non-stop!




And every Christmas millions of apprentice angels get their wings.


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