# Order your Star Wars films



## Morrus (Oct 26, 2019)

With a new one on the horizon, here’s my current list:

A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
...
Rogue One
Force Awakens
Last Jedi
Solo
...
...
Revenge of the Sith
Phantom Menace
...
...
...
...
Attack of the Clones


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## Zardnaar (Oct 26, 2019)

ESB
ANH
Rogue One

RotJ
Solo
TFA
RotS

TLJ
TPM
AotC

Rewatched recently Solo and Rogue One go up.


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## Elodan (Oct 26, 2019)

A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi

Revenge of the Sith
The Force Awakens

The Last Jedi
Attack of the Clones
Solo
The Phantom Menace


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## Evenglare (Oct 26, 2019)

Revenge of the Sith
(Rogue One)
Return of The Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
A new Hope
Attack of the Clones
Force Awakens
Phantom Menace
(Solo)
Last Jedi


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## Retreater (Oct 26, 2019)

ESB
ANH
ROTJ
TFA
RO
Solo
ROTS
TLJ
AOTC
TPM


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## Maxperson (Oct 26, 2019)

This is my list

Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi

Solo
Force Awakens
Last Jedi

Attack of the Clones
Phantom Menace
Revenge of the Sith



Rogue One - This is down here, because I haven't seen it yet.  It is unranked.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 26, 2019)

Return of The Jedi (the most pivotal moment in SW is in this movie, and I have the most fun rewatching it)
A New Hope
The Last Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
The Force Awakens
Revenge of The Sith
Phantom Menace
Clones

Rebels
Clone Wars
Solo

That one Ewok movie

ET (only ranked so low because it isn’t about a Stars War)

The Xmas Special

Rogue One - the Snyderverse Star Wars movie. No, thanks. The Rebels don’t employ child assassins. Period. I’d rather read the book where Han wins a planet again than watch this.


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## Leatherhead (Oct 26, 2019)

In reverse order:

1
2
Rogue 1
3
8
7
6
4
5
Spaceballs


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## ccs (Oct 26, 2019)

1) Empire Strikes Back/A New Hope - For me, it's essentially a tie.  Slight edge to ESB, but not enough to shift ANH into actual 2nd place.
2) RotJ

3) The 1st 1/4-1/3rd of TFA. 
With the exception of when Kylo takes off his helmet & dispels any illusion that he's going to be a bad ass new villain, right up to about the point where they hook up with the rest of the rebels resistance.  Oh boy!  All new characters, places, story, etc!  _Potential!_  And then.... oh.

4) Phantom Menace - there's some bad dialog, & some other flaws, but it does entertain me.  Great soundtrack.  Great locations/sets/action.  I like Mcgregor & Neeson as Jedi.  I like the pod-racing sequence.  Darth Maul.  I love the Naboo fighter. 

5) The Clone wars
6) Revenge of the Sith
7) Rogue One - Entertaining enough throw away movie.  Not _bad_, but..... Eh.  It's a lot like watching a filmed version of a SW RPG or something we'd play using our action figs in the back yard as kids.  Well, except for the child assassin bit.
8) Solo - completely pointless fan service.  And I just didn't buy the guy they cast as Solo.
9) The rest of TFA, where it becomes a poor remake of ANH.  A poor remake of ANH is still better than:

10) The Last Jedi.   

?) Skywalker - Thanks to TFA & TLJ, + Solo, & R1 I'm not going to pay Disney to see this one in the theaters.  If I see it before it hits D+ (wich I'll have because of all the Marvel stuff) it'll be because I pirated it.
Eventually I'll work it into my rankings.


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## trappedslider (Oct 26, 2019)

Attack of the Clones 
The Last Jedi
Rogue One 
The Force Awakens 
ANH
Solo 
Revenge of The Sith
Phantom Menace
Return of the Jedi
Lego Star Wars
ESB


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 26, 2019)

NSFW

Heres my favorite, Han Solo gets Jedi Mind Tricked by 4 bottles of wine and David Blaine.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Oct 26, 2019)

Star Wars Rebels Seasons 1 and 2
A New Hope/Empire Strikes Back (it's a tie)
Return of the Jedi

I don't consider the prequels to have been made and I'm withholding judgement on the sequels until Christmas.


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## Enrico Poli1 (Oct 26, 2019)

1) Empire Strikes Back
2) Return of the Jedi
3) A New Hope
4) Attack of the Clones
5) Revenge of the Sith
6) Rogue One
7) The Last Jedi
8) The Force Awakens
9) The Phantom Menace


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## Hriston (Oct 27, 2019)

1. Star Wars 
2. The Empire Strikes Back 
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Attack of the Clones 
6. Revenge of the Sith 
7. The Force Awakens 
8. The Last Jedi
9. The Rise of Skywalker

Apparently Disney didn’t get the memo that only one episode per trilogy is supposed to have a title that begins with “the”.


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## billd91 (Oct 27, 2019)

Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Solo
The Phantom Menace
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones


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## Salthorae (Oct 27, 2019)

Similar to @Morrus though with a couple of shifts. 

Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
...
Force Awakens
Last Jedi
Rogue One
Solo
...
Revenge of the Sith
Phantom Menace
...
Attack of the Clones


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## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2019)

Poor Attack of the Clones. Not much love.


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## Salthorae (Oct 27, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Poor Attack of the Clones. Not much love.



There's a reason for that.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> There's a reason for that.



Yep. Still it has its fans.


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## trappedslider (Oct 27, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Yep. Still it has its fans.



like me!

the hype is honestly what has killed ESB's enjoyment for me and that's why it's at the bottom of my list.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> like me!
> 
> the hype is honestly what has killed ESB's enjoyment for me and that's why it's at the bottom of my list.




Fair enough, the prequals have their fans. 

 Each one had at least one great scene.


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## ccs (Oct 27, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> the hype is honestly what has killed ESB's enjoyment for me and that's why it's at the bottom of my list.




The hype 40 years ago?  
Or the hype since that consistently puts it as one of, if not the, best SW film + one of the best SF movies overall?


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## GreyLord (Oct 27, 2019)

Hmmm,

Currently...(it changes)...

Probably...

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
Star Wars
The Force Awakens
Attack of the Clones
Solo
The Clone Wars (film was released in theaters)
The Ewok Movie (whatever it was called)
(most other movies that are SW rip offs no matter how bad)
The Phantom Menace
The Last  Jedi ( To be clear, this is just as it is ranked as a SW film...I think as a stand alone film not PART of the SW franchise it actually rates higher than many of the other SW films, especially TFA as TLJ is more complete as a film).


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## Mallus (Oct 27, 2019)

1. Star Wars
2. The Last Jedi

(apparently the saga is really Luke’s story for me)

3. The Empire Strikes Back
4. The Force Awakens
5. Return of the Jedi
6. Rogue One
7. Solo
8. Revenge of the Sith
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Phantom Menace


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## Gladius Legis (Oct 30, 2019)

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars

3. Return of the Jedi
4. Rogue One

5. Force Awakens
6. Solo

7. Last Jedi
8. Revenge of the Sith

9. The Phantom Menace

10 (million, billion). Attack of the Clones


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## Mercurius (Oct 30, 2019)

A different approach:

1. The Emperor-Vader-Luke sequence in Return of the Jedi
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. A New Hope
4. The rest of Return of the Jedi
5. The visuals of the Prequel Trilogy
6. The feeling of returning to the Star Wars universe at the beginning of The Force Awakens
7. The Mandalorian Trailer
8. Rogue One
9. The Force Awakens, in toto
10. The Last Jedi, sans Leia flying through space, sad animals, Akbar dying, loser Luke, and other odd and incongruous bits
11. Solo
12. The Prequel trilogy with Hayden Chrstiansen replaced with Jake Gyllenhaal
13. The Last Jedi, in toto
14. The actual Prequel trilogy
15. Leia flying through space
16. Zardnaar mentioning the Expanded Universe


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## Mercurius (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm glad you have a sense of humor, Zardnaar, and took that last little bit in the friendly jab spirit it was intended as.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Ewoks Caravan of Courage
Ewoks Battle for Endor
Return of the Jedi (Ewoks mvp)
.
.
.
.
.
Everything else.

 I saw Battle for Endor at the movie theatre lol.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> I'm glad you have a sense of humor, Zardnaar, and took that last little bit in the friendly jab spirit it was intended as.




I'm very insulted and play my X card.


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## Mercurius (Oct 30, 2019)

I don't mind the ewoks and think they get a bad rap. They provide a nice balance to the dark intensity of the Luke-Vader-Emperor scene. Plus, it _was _kind of fun seeing their bodies flung by explosions, and who can forget the sad ewok nudging his dead friend/lover/relative?

I never saw Battle of Endor or Caravan of Courage. The minute of the Holiday Special that i watched was enough for me.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> I don't mind the ewoks and think they get a bad rap. They provide a nice balance to the dark intensity of the Luke-Vader-Emperor scene. Plus, it _was _kind of fun seeing their bodies flung by explosions, and who can forget the sad ewok nudging his dead friend/lover/relative?
> 
> I never saw Battle of Endor or Caravan of Courage. The minute of the Holiday Special that i watched was enough for me.




I don't have any major problem with the Ewoks either.


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## Hussar (Oct 30, 2019)

I can see not having a problem with ewoks, but, you have to admit, they do kinda stand out like a sore thumb.  None of the other movies features "cute aliens" so prominently.  Even the Jawas were more scary than cute.  And, it does kinda make a rather unfortunately plot hole when the cream of the Empire's soldiers get their asses handed to them by a bunch of spear wielding teddy bears.  Does tend to make the Stormtroopers seem awfully goofy.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I can see not having a problem with ewoks, but, you have to admit, they do kinda stand out like a sore thumb.  None of the other movies features "cute aliens" so prominently.  Even the Jawas were more scary than cute.  And, it does kinda make a rather unfortunately plot hole when the cream of the Empire's soldiers get their asses handed to them by a bunch of spear wielding teddy bears.  Does tend to make the Stormtroopers seem awfully goofy.




They did use traps etc and Stormtroopers already goofy.

 But yeah they do stick out a bit.


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## Mercurius (Oct 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I can see not having a problem with ewoks, but, you have to admit, they do kinda stand out like a sore thumb.  None of the other movies features "cute aliens" so prominently.  Even the Jawas were more scary than cute.  And, it does kinda make a rather unfortunately plot hole when the cream of the Empire's soldiers get their asses handed to them by a bunch of spear wielding teddy bears.  Does tend to make the Stormtroopers seem awfully goofy.




Agreed. _Return of the Jedi _is a great but flawed film. It really feels a bit patched together, far less cohesive than the perfectly crafted _Empire, _and without the fresh rawness of _A New Hope, _even if more polished_. _


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Agreed. _Return of the Jedi _is a great but flawed film. It really feels a bit patched together, far less cohesive than the perfectly crafted _Empire, _and without the fresh rawness of _A New Hope, _even if more polished_. _




It's still got one if the best space battles in any film though. 

 Rogue One did well in that regard as well.


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## GreyLord (Oct 30, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Ewoks Caravan of Courage
> Ewoks Battle for Endor
> Return of the Jedi (Ewoks mvp)
> .
> ...




The Ewok movies were released at the movie theaters?!

I did not know this.  Is this really correct?

That would mean, beyond the Clone Wars cartoon release, there was another small SW film released to the theaters.  Anyone know how much it made or not?


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> The Ewok movies were released at the movie theaters?!
> 
> I did not know this.  Is this really correct?
> 
> That would mean, beyond the Clone Wars cartoon release, there was another small SW film released to the theaters.  Anyone know how much it made or not?




Idk if it varied by country or had a limited release.

It may have been someone using a VHS tape.

If it was officially released idk. I thought it was. Same theatre you used to be able to play Megadrive games on the big screen.

Same one I saw Jedi at in the big screen with my brother. I remember the scene of some alien being electrocuted or something.  Had blue energy cascading over it.

 It had a theatrical release in the UK, in in NZ. It would have been 87 or 88 I saw it.

 80s NZ was often months or years behind overseas releases.


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## Jacob Lewis (Nov 2, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> The Ewok movies were released at the movie theaters?!
> 
> I did not know this.  Is this really correct?
> 
> That would mean, beyond the Clone Wars cartoon release, there was another small SW film released to the theaters.  Anyone know how much it made or not?



This is not correct. These were not theatrical releases. They were made specifically for television, and then later released through home video. First VHS, and then DVD. I think it may even be available on Blu-ray. I'll need to double-check on that.

EDIT: No for blu-ray. And a single DVD was released back in 2004 as a double-feature for both Ewok movies.

That doesn't mean it has never been shown in a theater somewhere, but theater technology at the time it was made didn't allow for projecting media from VHS or TV broadcasts. It had to be distributed as film reels, which it was not.

Interestingly, the ewok shows were handled by Lucas directly after the embarrassment of the Holiday Special that was produced by studio executives who believed variety shows were the magic formula for everything. It was a hard lesson for George who grew distrustful of anyone else handling his creations.

Anyway, I don't think the topic specified theatrical releases (though it may have been implied). But I believe the vast majority is unfamiliar with anything beyond the major movies. Fortunately, they aren't missing anything special about these made for tv films.

But I would submit that Star Wars Rebels offers one of the most satisfying experiences yet. It bridges that original trilogy feel with clone wars style sequences and intrigue. The characters are well developed and constantly growing throughout the entire four season run. The storylines add greater depth and comprehension to the larger story while staying focused on the characters who have their own saga which neatly intersects in interesting places. Hands down, one of my all-time favorites and a great reference for the way I structure my own Star Wars games.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 2, 2019)

Jacob Lewis said:


> This is not correct. These were not theatrical releases. They were made specifically for television, and then later released through home video. First VHS, and then DVD. I think it may even be available on Blu-ray. I'll need to double-check on that.
> 
> EDIT: No for blu-ray. And a single DVD was released back in 2004 as a double-feature for both Ewok movies.
> 
> ...




Wikipedia tells me the Ewok movies got a theatrical release in the UK.

Back then NZ did source stuff from the UK and movies were released years late in some cases.


For example I saw Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure in the theatre after the second movie had been released.


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## Mercurius (Nov 4, 2019)

OK, having done some recent re-watching, and my last half-joking post aside, here's my actual current list, with comments:

*1. A New Hope. *I previously ranked _Empire _1st, but I'm going to give this one the top rank, if only by a hair. It is just _the _iconic Star Wars film. It is raw and goofy at times, but just a sheer thrill andd complete in itself.
*2.*_* Empire Strikes Back. *_What hasn't already been said about this film? So much fun, and it just flows from one sequence to the next. Perhaps the most perfect SW film, it is really 1a and 1b, in whatever order.
*3.*_* Return of the Jedi. *_Has the best sequence in the entire saga--Luke, Vader, and the Emperor--but also some not-so-great parts, and feels a bit patched together. Upon re-watching, I found myself tempted to skip through the whole Jabba sequence...it was OK, but it lacked dramatic tension and just seemed silly. I'm OK with the ewoks - they're cute, even if their cutesyness is too contrasting with what Luke is going through.

_....A vast gulf of empty nothingness, not unlike the void between stars...

....Commence fanfic..._​
*4. The Force Awakens. *Holy homage, Batman. If I had never seen Star Wars I would have though, "wow, what a fun film!" And it _is_ a good film, beautiful to look at and--unlike the later Lucas monstrosities--doesn't rely on CGI. But you can't separate it out from the Saga, and with that in mind it is flawed. First of all, it is just so damn derivative. Just about every element is a variation on something from the originals. Secondly, despite excellent actors, the characters don't come alive as they should and the chemistry is weak. Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac and Domhnall Gleeson are some of the better actors of their generation, but they all seem less than in other films. Finn should be more sympathetic than he is. I love Adam Driver, but Darth Emo is a bit over the top. And Hux is just silly. All that said, it is a lot of fun and is clearly a loving homage.
*5. Rogue One. *This may be the best of the Disney films thus far, but I also find myself not caring to re-watch it. As with _Solo_ I eventually will, but perhaps because its not central to the Saga, it just feels tangential.
*6. The Last Jedi. *The most controversial Star Wars film. It truly has some bad bits to it, but also has so much going on that there's something for everyone to like--and hate.
*7. Solo. *The least necessary of all Star Wars films, but also thoroughly inoffensive.

_....And even faster gulf of empty darkness, this time the void between galaxies...

Oh, George, what happened?_​*8. Revenge of the Sith. *The best of a bad trilogy. At the least we get to see some fun Jedi action and cool sets--as with the other two. But Hayden Christiansen just isn't good and diminishes the legacy of Darth Vader.
*9. Attack of the Clones. *"You'll always be that little boy on Tatooine, Ani." I guess not.
*10*_*. The Phantom Menace. *_At least there's Liam Neeson. And Darth Maul. But the pod race, Jar-Jar, that kid, Jake Lloyd, utterly kills it for me...so much horror. Oh, the horror.


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## Eltab (Nov 28, 2019)

I like my Star Wars films with a side of popcorn, an XL soda, and a box of Chocolate Mints for dessert. (Eps. 2, 7, 8 substitute a roll of Tums for dessert.)


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## cbwjm (Nov 29, 2019)

I'm rewatching all of the movies in preparation for the new movie coming out. Only watched episode 1 and 2 so far, might watch 3 tonight. I found them both quite enjoyable though I found the CGI in episode 1 a bit dated. 

My top 2 are a new hope followed by return of the Jedi. I was never too fond of empire strikes back, thought it was the worst of the original trilogy and is probably the one I've seen the least of the three.


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## Mallus (Nov 29, 2019)

Heh... I started watching them out of order, starting with The Force Awakens on Disney+ in 4K and fairly nice HDR. I’m reminded I don’t care how derivative it is, that film has a breakneck pace, amazing chemistry between the leads, and a raw streak of regret that more than justifies Han being back in it.

Next might be RotJ, because Act One is the purest expression of Star Wars as later day Flash Gordon-esque pulp sci-fi and the Battle of Endor is beautiful.


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## the Jester (Nov 29, 2019)

The Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars (the original; I just can't bring myself to call it "A New Hope" as a matter of course)
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Last Jedi
Solo
Attack of the Clones
The Force Awakens
The Phantom Menace
The Star Wars Holiday Special*


*I can't believe you guys all left this one off your lists!


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2019)

HS is like the Ewok movies and Clone Wars animated movie.


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## Vael (Nov 29, 2019)

1. Star Wars
2. The Last Jedi
3. Empire Strikes Back
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Rogue One
6. The Force Awakens
----
7. Solo
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Revenge of the Sith
10. Attack of the Clones

So, I'll comment briefly on the major outliers:

Yes, I love *The Last Jedi*. While not perfect, I love what it sets out to do, I like Rose, I like that it complicates the heroes and the universe.

Second ... I find *The Phantom Menace*, as dumb as it is, more watchable than *Revenge of the Sith*. TPM had a pretty awesome Padme, Duel of the Fates is probably the best piece of Star Wars music outside of the main trilogy, and aside from Jar Jar, none of the characters are actively hateable. RotS destroys all that, as the dialogue is both incredibly dumb and also makes every character terminally stupid.


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## ccs (Nov 29, 2019)

the Jester said:


> The Star Wars Holiday Special*
> 
> 
> *I can't believe you guys all left this one off your lists!




I took films to mean the theatrical releases.
So the Holiday Special, the Ewok movies, The Mandolorian, & the assorted animated series are in their own category.
But, no matter what we're including on the list, the SW Holiday Special will always be the worst of the list.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 3, 2019)

Return of the Jedi
(Rebels cartoon)
The Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
The Mandalorian
(Clone Wars cartoon)
Solo
A New Hope
The Force Awakens
The Phantom Menace
The Last Jedi
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
(Christmas Special)
---
I've never seen Resistance, nor the Ewok movies, nor played any of the video games, nor read any of the novels.

I did _run_ three Star Wars campaigns, and I'd put them slightly below The Force Awakens.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 3, 2019)

Also:

Farscape
Cowboy Bebop
The Expanse
Star Wars
Babylon 5
Star Trek
Battlestar Galactica
Firefly


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## RangerWickett (Dec 4, 2019)

Ewoks Are the Most Tactically Advanced Fighting Force in Star Wars
					

Hate them or love them, the Ewoks have more strategic chops than any military in the Star Wars galaxy.




					www.wired.com


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## lowkey13 (Dec 4, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zaukrie (Dec 10, 2019)

I'm rewatching them all right now.

Holy heck......Episodes 1 and 2 are awful movies. The fight with Darth Maul is awesome, the rest of that movie is terrible. If it wasn't Star Wars, I can't see any way I'd care to ever see it again.

Attack of the Clones was also bad. I felt like I was watching video game play throughs for a lot of the scenes.

Revenge of the Sith is an ok/almost good movie. Why Windu doesn't arrest Palpatine is a mystery. Why Yoda doesn't take Obi Wan with him to fight Palpatine is inexplicable. Why Padme gives up on life, and orphans her child(ren) is unspeakably stupid. Other than those three things, I like this movie.

Haven't gotten to the rest yet......


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 10, 2019)

ESB
ANH
RotJ
RofS
AotC
PM
R1










TFA (haven't watched any of the other SW movies after this one I found it so bad.  Well I did see R1 which was OK I guess.  The Vader scene at the end was fun.)


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## Nikosandros (Dec 10, 2019)

1) Empire Strikes Back
2) A New Hope
3) Return of the Jedi
4) Rogue One
5) The Force Awakens
6) Solo
7) The Phantom Menace
8) Revenge of the Sith
9) The Last Jedi
10) Attack of the Clones


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## OB1 (Dec 12, 2019)

I have them in tiers, and should note that while I do rank them, I love them all.

Tier 1 - A New Hope
Tier 2 - Empire Strikes Back, The Last Jedi
Tier 3 - Phantom Menace, Return of the Jedi, Revenge of the Sith, The Force Awakens
Tier 4 - Attack of the Clones, Rogue One, Solo


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## Gradine (Dec 12, 2019)

I'll do tiers too because it's hard for me to split them towards the top.
Tier 1 (Cream of the Crop) - Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, The Last Jedi
Tier 2 (Still Very Good) - A New Hope, The Force Awakens

From here is a substantial gap, then each movie gets its own tier:
Tier 3 (Fine, Just Fine, Really)- Solo
Tier 4 (First 50% Garbage, Last 50% WOW, so solidly in the middle I guess) - Rogue One
Tier 5 (At Least Mostly Works On Its Own Terms: "You Know, For Kids!") - The Phantom Menace
Tier 6 (Way Worse Than You Remember It Being) - Revenge of the Sith
Tier 7 (Trash Compacter) - Attack of the Clones


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## Zaukrie (Dec 12, 2019)

Just watched Solo last night. It's a fun movie. I have no idea why people don't like it. We still have SIX more to watch? ugh....so little time......I'm guessing Solo is in my top 2-4 or so.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 12, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> Just watched Solo last night. It's a fun movie. I have no idea why people don't like it. We still have SIX more to watch? ugh....so little time......I'm guessing Solo is in my top 2-4 or so.




 Solis not a bad film IMHO. I like it better than the prequels and sequel trilogies. 

 Recasting Harrison Ford, marketing, post TLJ, land in May not December etc adds up.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 12, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Solis not a bad film IMHO. I like it better than the prequels and sequel trilogies.
> 
> Recasting Harrison Ford, marketing, post TLJ, land in May not December etc adds up.




I agree, the studio did the film no favors.....


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## Hussar (Dec 13, 2019)

Possibly a bit of Star Wars burnout too.  And, really, a prequel to a movie that came out forty years ago is maybe a bit too niche.  

But, yeah, I thought Solo was fun.  My girls liked it.  Never understood the hate.  Then again, I like most of the SW movies, other than the prequels.


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## Hriston (Dec 13, 2019)

Speaking as someone who couldn’t quite stomach Solo, I think the dislike for me stems from having someone besides Harrison Ford play Han Solo. I couldn’t buy him as the same character.


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## Gradine (Dec 13, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Speaking as someone who couldn’t quite stomach Solo, I think the dislike for me stems from having someone besides Harrison Ford play Han Solo. I couldn’t buy him as the same character.




I appreciated that he didn't try to do a Harrison Ford impression and made the role his own. It would have been way worse if he had to tried to mimic Ford, and I'm sure not even Disney can afford to spend an entire movie digitally de-aging him.

The best solution would have been to not make the movie at all, but that would be depriving the world of Donald Glover as Lando, which at least IMO was worth it


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## Celebrim (Dec 13, 2019)

#1 The Empire Strikes Back - Stars Wars was a phenomenon that changed the industry in and of itself, but this is the movie where people started taking Star Wars seriously
#2 Star Wars (A New Hope) - The movie revolutionized movie making, and deservedly won numerous Oscars.  However, a lack of character development means it's just now quite as good as the slower paced more cerebral sequel.
#3 Return of the Jedi - The final act has both glorious moments and sappiness, but compared to so many stories that start out well but can't deliver on an ending, 'Jedi' still can't be faulted as a third act.  The ending was big, it was massive, it was emotional, and it neatly wrapped up all of its story arcs.
#4 Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - The only Star Wars movie outside the original three that managed to have a clear purpose, and a clear sense of what it wanted to be, and managed to actually deliver on its intention. While there are moments of weakness in the script and a few plot holes, it's also one of the few Star Wars movies that manages to patch more plot holes than it creates. A worthy addition to the Star Wars universe, and really a true fan film by someone that obviously cared about the setting, the story, and the characters.
#5 Revenge of the Sith - The best of the prequels marred mostly by having to wrap up the story arc of its characters in a way that delivered a payoff despite the fact that nothing hitherto set up the story for a big pay off. Poorly reasoned morality from the guy that convinced himself it would have been immoral for Han to shoot first undermines the story at every turn, so that what should have been a tragedy is something of a farce.
#6 Attack of the Clones - A decent movie with the best payoff of the prequels, but marred by terrible writing in the second act, so that what should of been a romance becomes a farce.
#7 Solo - A mediocre heist movie suffers from not really being a Star Wars movie despite draping itself in the names, setting, and paraphernalia of the Star Wars universe. There had been better efforts at giving Han Solo a backstory in the extended universe than this one.
#8 The Phantom Menace - Childish and inane. A decent idea for a story, beautiful art direction, and a great score is marred by it's lack of direction over what the movie wants to be - you can be children's comic movie or the beginning of a Shakespearean tragedy but not really both, an illogical script that jumps through a bunch of hoops for no obvious reason, and really terrible writing.
#9 The Force Awakens - It made the Phantom Menace actually look good. The Phantom Menace was a brilliant idea for a movie marred by bad movie making. The Force Awakens was a terrible idea for a movie elevated by decent movie making, but ultimately no amount of lipstick can make a pig look like anything but a pig. This is a movie that never should have been made. Much like the Special Edition version of 'The Return of the Jedi', this is movie that actively makes the original trilogy worse, undermining the story, characters, and plot of the original in the bizarre belief that what fans really wanted was to reset the universe back to square one. Illogical at every step, cynical, unoriginal, and with absolutely no idea what sort of story it wants to tell, this is movie that should have ended the career of everyone involved in it for a good long time, if not permanently.
#10 The Last Jedi - One of the worst movies ever made, but given the train wreck of a first act that this was supposed to build on, nothing else really could have been expected. A total farce worthy only of mockery from now to the end of time.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 13, 2019)

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## Nebulous (Dec 13, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Possibly a bit of Star Wars burnout too.  And, really, a prequel to a movie that came out forty years ago is maybe a bit too niche.
> 
> But, yeah, I thought Solo was fun.  My girls liked it.  Never understood the hate.  Then again, I like most of the SW movies, other than the prequels.




I thought Solo was pretty darn good.  Maybe because I had such low expectations, and the actor was supposed to be godawful, but he was fine, really.  He wasn't a young Harrison Ford but no one could have been.  I thought that train heist sequence on the mountain was fantastic actually, a really great set piece.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 13, 2019)

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## Nebulous (Dec 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> The reason that I rank Solo so low on my person scale is because (other than Lando; Lando is cool) it was perfectly cromulent ....
> 
> but completely unnecessary. Look, the prequels were varying degrees of bad, but they were interesting. They developed some Lucas points for occasionally for the better, and many time for worse (oof, midichlorians).
> 
> But Solo? The thing that made Han Solo so iconic in many ways was the lack of explanation; he was forever perfect, like The Man With No Name, without a need for a complicated backstory. I tell you, a little part of me died when they did that whole, "Ha ha, this is how he got his name, he is alone, GET IT????"




Yeah, but Solo also had no Jar Jar, no trade war disputes, no young Anakin, no teen Anakin in love, and so on.  Solo was totally unnecessary though I agree.  Oh and the Solo name, yeesh, that was stupid.  Apparently you don't even need a driver's license to join the Empire.  Whatever.  I didn't hate it though.  And when I've despised so much of what has come in the SW franchise since RotJ, not hating something is unfortunately the new bar.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 13, 2019)

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## generic (Dec 14, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Say what you will about the eventual heat death of the universe, at least it will spare people Anakin and Padme.



Plot twist!  In Rise of Skywalker, Rey causes a vacuum-death scenario in the Star Wars universe, preventing matter from existing, ever again!

Hopefully not, though.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 14, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> Plot twist!  In Rise of Skywalker, Rey causes a vacuum-death scenario in the Star Wars universe, preventing matter from existing, ever again!
> 
> Hopefully not, though.




Still better than Attack of the Clones.


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## generic (Dec 14, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Still better than attack of the Clones.



Sad, but true.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 14, 2019)

Just watched A New Hope..... It's not just nostalgia that makes it good. There's a good story, that isn't yelled at you like the prequels. In some ways, we are lucky Lucas didn't have more technology to work with.


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## billd91 (Dec 14, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> Just watched A New Hope..... It's not just nostalgia that makes it good. There's a good story, that isn't yelled at you like the prequels. In some ways, we are lucky Lucas didn't have more technology to work with.




He and his team were still *inventing* much of the technology and infrastructure for A New Hope.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 14, 2019)

billd91 said:


> He and his team were still *inventing* much of the technology and infrastructure for A New Hope.



Yes, and?


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## Morrus (Dec 14, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> Apparently you don't even need a driver's license to join the Empire.




It's not far off conscription. I wouldn't be surprised if there were press gangs, too. Historically, getting into the military wasn't difficult. Getting out was!


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## Vael (Dec 14, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Speaking as someone who couldn’t quite stomach Solo, I think the dislike for me stems from having someone besides Harrison Ford play Han Solo. I couldn’t buy him as the same character.




Huh. I disliked the movie, a lot, but Alden Ehrenreich's young Han Solo is not a problem for me.

Admittedly, my initial experience soured my impression on the movie. The opening chase scene was so dark, I couldn't see what was going on, and I was so annoyed by that that when the Imperial officer called him "Solo", the movie had forever lost me, I nearly walked out.

The other major issue is the whole problematic plotline involving L3-37. The sentience level of Droids and whether or not they're slaves is one of those things that I believe is best left unexamined. Just don't go there. Solo goes there, and then plays it off for a cheap laugh.

Then there's all the minor annoyances, like that the movie is just here to explain every bit of Han Solo's wiki page (including why he calls Chewbacca "Chewie", one of the most annoying lines it deserves as much contempt as the line about hating sand), you get the fabulous Thandi Newton and blow her up minutes later, useless and confusing Darth Maul cameo, and there's not nearly enough Lando.

The other reason I don't mind Alden Ehrenreich's young Han Solo is that I'm not precious about actors and roles, I remember hearing the same thing back in 2009 when the Star Trek reboot movie came out. "You can't recast Kirk or Spock or any of the others", said many a fan, even I was ... apprehensive. And, that movie, for all its flaws, casting was not one of them. I fully expect to see a remake of the original Star Wars on day, with a new cast.

Which leads to another question, nearly everyone has put Star Wars as their favourite ... but which one?

Star Wars - the original theatrical release (without even the Episode 4 subtitle)
Star Wars Special Edition - with Jabba and Han shooting first.
The Blue Ray version - which has more changes, but I can't remember them.
Apparently the version up on Disney+ has even more changes.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 14, 2019)

Heh not to many have rated

Clone Wars animated
Ewoks Battle for Endor
Ewoks Caravan of Courage.

Clone Wars animated goes below AotC can't rate the other 2 fairly it's been to long.


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## Hriston (Dec 14, 2019)

Has anyone mentioned Droids? I never really watched it myself, but I love the idea.


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## Hriston (Dec 14, 2019)

Oh, and the Genndy Tartakovsky Clone Wars, I loved that. Or are we only talking about feature length cartoons?


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## Warpiglet (Dec 15, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> #10 The Last Jedi - One of the worst movies ever made, but given the train wreck of a first act that this was supposed to build on, nothing else really could have been expected. A total farce worthy only of mockery from now to the end of time.





Truer words were never spoken.

Many years of character development gone in minutes.

Bizarre throwaway characters and plot lines.  

Killed a stormtrooper captain with ease.  Snoke also never developed.  Luke = Puke.

Saw a new hope in theaters as a child.  I really question even subjecting myself to the last film after 40+ years of fandom.

Feel free to read this post in the voice of comic book guy from the simpsons if you wish.  That film was a fresh turd on a hot day.

Oh Disney


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## Hussar (Dec 16, 2019)

And yet, my daughters loved both movies and can't wait to see the next one.

It always baffles me, frankly, when people talk about Star Wars in terms of "good movie making".  It's Star Wars.  Art, it is not.  A New Hope is glacially paced, boring as all hell and, had it come out today instead of in the 70's, wouldn't even rate a second glance.  I mean, good grief, we get to watch a couple of robots walk around in the desert for a significant chunk of the movie.  

Look, I love Star Wars.  But, that's the 5 year old me that saw it at a drive in movie with my family drooling.  Adult me, rewatching the movie, has a heck of a time staying awake because the movie is about twice as long as it should have been.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> And yet, my daughters loved both movies and can't wait to see the next one.
> 
> It always baffles me, frankly, when people talk about Star Wars in terms of "good movie making".  It's Star Wars.  Art, it is not.  A New Hope is glacially paced, boring as all hell and, had it come out today instead of in the 70's, wouldn't even rate a second glance.  I mean, good grief, we get to watch a couple of robots walk around in the desert for a significant chunk of the movie.
> 
> Look, I love Star Wars.  But, that's the 5 year old me that saw it at a drive in movie with my family drooling.  Adult me, rewatching the movie, has a heck of a time staying awake because the movie is about twice as long as it should have been.




 It's because plot has become a dirty four letter word. 

They want explosions and special effects that trigger epilepsy.


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## Morrus (Dec 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Art, it is not.



It absolutely is art. Whether you consider it good art or not is another matter, but filmmaking is an art.


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## Hussar (Dec 16, 2019)

Morrus said:


> It absolutely is art. Whether you consider it good art or not is another matter, but filmmaking is an art.




Fair enough.  I guess I was just getting a trifle annoyed with multiple people proclaiming this or that Star Wars movie, as "garbage" or "a farce only worthy of mockery" or whatever.  

Good grief, it's freaking Star Wars.  What are people expecting?


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## Hussar (Dec 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's because plot has become a dirty four letter word.
> 
> They want explosions and special effects that trigger epilepsy.



Yeah, not so much.  But, thank you for denigrating my daughters and presuming that they have no attention span or taste.  

What plot does Star Wars, A New Hope have?  I mean, we're not exactly talking a highly complex story here.  It's pretty straight forward.


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## Warpiglet (Dec 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Fair enough.  I guess I was just getting a trifle annoyed with multiple people proclaiming this or that Star Wars movie, as "garbage" or "a farce only worthy of mockery" or whatever.
> 
> Good grief, it's freaking Star Wars.  What are people expecting?



After watching the films for decades hoping for consistency in tone and character is an expectation.

And you're right, it's just for fun.  But so are most of the hobbies we talk about here.  

Unclear to me why you would be annoyed with people complaining about something you think is vapid fluff.

It's not an insult to people who like it.  I am sure my kids will be happy with whatever they put out.  

I also disagree with your assessment of the Star Wars films.  They were groundbreaking in many ways and have been meaningful to many people who grew up pretending to be the heroes, collecting merch etc.

Maybe the complaints don't resonate because you had no expectations.   Fair enough.  Frankly, I find posting in a thread that intends to discuss preferences only to say they don't matter is sort of annoying too.

But whatever.  I will pony up the bucks, be a good sport and take the family and hope for the best.  I am grousing too much about the last film.

My rankings would place episodes 4, 5 and six at the top (surely biased by nostalgia) followed by episode 3 and rogue one.  Solo maybe after these.

My last would be episode 2 followed by the last Jedi.

Hoping the last one repairs the weird departure that was the last Jedi.


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## Mallus (Dec 16, 2019)

I'm trying to manage my expectations for Rise. I _like_ Abrams, but I'm just not sure I want something that feels more like The Force Awakens after seeing what Johnson did with Last Jedi.

Because I swear Johnson made one of the most poignant & majestic space operas ever put on screen. One that did a bang-up job explaining The Force and had a last act to die for - seriously, say what you will about the plotting and character decisions but the climax on Crait was a marvel of pure cinema.

Then again, this one's got space horses, so maybe J.J. really did cut loose.


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## billd91 (Dec 16, 2019)

Warpiglet said:


> Saw a new hope in theaters as a child.  I really question even subjecting myself to the last film after 40+ years of fandom.




I too experienced Star Wars in the theaters as a child back in 1977. I thoroughly enjoyed *The Last Jedi* and am looking forward to *The Rise of Skywalker*. So don't think dropping your lengthy experience with Star Wars indicates a trend.


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## Gladius Legis (Dec 16, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Clone Wars animated goes below AotC can't rate the other 2 fairly it's been to long.



Nah, Clone Wars movie still goes above AotC and TPM.

I regard it as an extended pilot for the excellent series that followed. Extremely rough, sure, as many pilots are, but the seeds were there.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 16, 2019)

billd91 said:


> I too experienced Star Wars in the theaters as a child back in 1977. I thoroughly enjoyed *The Last Jedi* and am looking forward to *The Rise of Skywalker*. So don't think dropping your lengthy experience with Star Wars indicates a trend.




Concur. I like the sequels. And I saw the originals in my teen year, give or take.


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## Warpiglet (Dec 16, 2019)

billd91 said:


> I too experienced Star Wars in the theaters as a child back in 1977. I thoroughly enjoyed *The Last Jedi* and am looking forward to *The Rise of Skywalker*. So don't think dropping your lengthy experience with Star Wars indicates a trend.




A trend?  Like how many people agree?  I couldn't care less.

My point is that I have a lot invested and my level of disappointment trumps it.

I did not see anyone express an opinion in this thread and defend it with how many people agree or disagree.  Hell, ticket sales alone tells you it is liked by someone.  Just not me.

I stand by my assessment of the Last Jedi.


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## Gradine (Dec 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Yeah, not so much.  But, thank you for denigrating my daughters and presuming that they have no attention span or taste.
> 
> What plot does Star Wars, A New Hope have?  I mean, we're not exactly talking a highly complex story here.  It's pretty straight forward.




Also, I go to Star Wars for the rich characters and depth of world building, and I also _loved _The Last Jedi.

It didn't hurt that it was also the most subversive film in the series since the original.

Like, I can see there being legitimate reasons to dislike it, but it's a well-made film by a genuinely talented director.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## Gradine (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I agree with everything you wrote, EXCEPT I would say it was the most subversive film in the series since ESB.
> 
> I mean ... that was amazing, and shocking (and would have been even more shocking if Lucas had kept his paws off of it, and avoided the anodyne ROJ).
> 
> Personal thesis and lukewarm take: Lucas's continued involvement has made everything go downhill since the original.




Now see, I _loved _Return of the Jedi too, because while the adult in me loves Star Wars for the rich characters and deep world building; the _kid _in me loves the super awesome spaceship shooty-shooty action pew pew! And RotJ continues to have the best space battle in the series.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## BookBarbarian (Dec 16, 2019)

Gradine said:


> Also, I go to Star Wars for the rich characters and depth of world building, and I also _loved _The Last Jedi.
> 
> It didn't hurt that it was also the most subversive film in the series since the original.
> 
> Like, I can see there being legitimate reasons to dislike it, but it's a well-made film by a genuinely talented director.




There are things I disliked about TlJ, but on the whole I'm with you on this one, and having just seen _Knives Out _it further cements my opinion that Johnson is one of the most clever directors out there.



lowkey13 said:


> I agree with everything you wrote, EXCEPT I would say it was the most subversive film in the series since ESB.
> 
> I mean ... that was amazing, and shocking (and would have been even more shocking if Lucas had kept his paws off of it, and avoided the anodyne ROJ).
> 
> Personal thesis and lukewarm take: Lucas's continued involvement has made everything go downhill since the original.




I was just reading an article about _The Phantom Menace _being the movie Lucas made with practically no oversight, and having read his qoutes on his plans for followups to RotJ I agree with you.



Gradine said:


> Now see, I _loved _Return of the Jedi too, because while the adult in me loves Star Wars for the rich characters and deep world building; the _kid _in me loves the super awesome spaceship shooty-shooty action pew pew! And RotJ continues to have the best space battle in the series.



While I have some quibbles about RotJ I just flat out love every scene with Luke, Vader, and Palpatine aboard the deathstar. They are so wrought with emotion backed by fantastic scoring.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> What plot does Star Wars, A New Hope have?  I mean, we're not exactly talking a highly complex story here.  It's pretty straight forward.




So the plot of Star Wars, 'A New Hope' is this:

Once upon a time there was a farmer boy living with his aunt and uncle, dreaming of going off to do deeds of daring. A chance encounter, if chance it was, causes him to realize that a Princess is endangered by a Black Knight. He soon meets a wizard, who tells the farmer boy that he is no ordinary farm boy, but the heir of a powerful warrior. The wizard gifts the farmer boy his birthright - a magic sword - and the two set off together to rescue the princess. Meanwhile, we learn that the Dark Lord is in control of a powerful Dragon called The Death Star, which has the power to destroy whole worlds. The Princess is forced to watch the destruction of her people. The farm boy meanwhile encounters a Lovable Rogue and a Monster That is Not What He Seems, who join the quest on the promise that there is treasure in it. However, they party is captured by the forces of the Dark Knight. In order to ensure the survival of his young charge, the Wizard sacrifices his life to allow the young farmer boy to escape, along with the Princess, and the secret of defeating the Dragon. The farm boy goes to the castle of the Princess, and fights along with her brave knights in a seemingly doomed effort to defeat the forces of the Black Knight. Just when it seems all is lost, the Lovable Rogue reveals his Heart of Gold and distracts the Black Knight at a critical moment, and the Wizard speaks to the Farm Boy from beyond the grave, allowing the Farm Boy to fulfill his destiny, thus winning the admiration of the Princess and the Kingdom. But will he live happily ever after? Stay tuned for more thrilling adventures.

In it's basics, it's a very common plot, but Star Wars delivered on it elegantly and creatively, while referencing a host of mythic archetypes from Fantasy, Westerns, and Space Operas. I mean, I say that it is a common plot, and almost archetypal, and when I put it like that above it seems reasonable to say that it is a 'common plot', but having said that, how many successful movies can you think of that had that plot? So what Star Wars is for me is the quintessential adaptation of one of the great metaplots to film, a classic - maybe the classic - fairy tale/bildungsroman/Campellian monomyth in cinematic form. Despite the fact it got an Oscar for film editing, I have some problems with the original cut that I think leaves to much character arc out of the story, but I have to admit that despite perhaps not being perfect, there hasn't been a better story of this sort in the movies before or since. Just look at how elegantly all the major figures are introduced into the story with their character intros. It's a masterpiece of sparse but evocative character building and story telling.

Compare with how poorly pretty much every major player but Rey (whose intro was pretty good) was handled in 'The Force Awakens', or how badly 'The Force Awakens' handled pretty much all of the same plot points, managing to be both derivative and incoherent at the same time.


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## billd91 (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> ROJ is fine; its'a good kids' movie. It's right there with, you know, the prequels.




It's more than just a good kids movie. It is the payoff for the entire first trilogy and completes Luke's Campbellian Hero's Journey and that appeals to us as adults just as much as ewoks may appeal to kids.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## Gradine (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Yeah, I loved it when I was young too. Ewoks are cute. Those speeder bikes are neat. And who doesn't want to see the Death Star again, except with more!
> 
> Because it was really aimed squarely at the kid market. By ROJ, Lucas had gone "full kids market," aka, realizing that the merchandising is where his money was being made. And most of the plot changes were dictated by the children's market. Ugh.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure what about a scantily clad woman choking a giant slug monster to death with her own chains or really any of the business with Jabba's Palace had to do with the "kids market" (other than toy set sales, which were honestly there from the beginning). RotJ also showed us Luke at his darkest (I mean, until TLJ). I mean yes, there were also awesome cute teddy bears fighting trained soldiers, but "technologically-superior-force-falls-to-underestimated-low-tech-civilization" is a well-worn trope for a reason.

I would argue the only prequel film made with kids in mind was Phantom Menace; RotS was the only Star Wars film rated PG-13 for a reason, and I refuse to believe that there was any kind of intentionality taking place at all on the set of AotC.

TPM succeeds on its own admittedly low terms, which is why it's the best prequel in spite of(or because of?) also having the most Jar Jar, because I've seen so many kids who absolutely love that garbage, and it's hard not to see why.

RotJ is a great movie that absolutely stands on its own, and if we're really going with "it's a kids film" then its a freaking revelation.


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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> .... _Hidden Fortress _for dumb people who can't read subtitles and think "foreign film" is a pejorative term used by fancy lads.




A comment which can only be made by people who read about 'Star Wars' but who haven't actually watched 'Hidden Fortress'.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Yeah, you must not read many of my comments.




No, but I have seen 'Hidden Fortress', and it doesn't have many plot points in common with 'A New Hope' at all.  There are some very loose connections between some the characters, but the plot points of 'The Phantom Menace' have more in common with those of 'Hidden Fortress' than they do 'A New Hope', such as the transportation of the noble woman in secret, and the story being about a veteran warrior who is secretly working for a defeated faction in a war.


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## billd91 (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> There may be legitimate reasons to criticize TLJ, but many of them do not hold up under scrutiny.




Things that are questions of taste are generally legit, such as "I would have wanted Snoke to be more developed and not cut down so soon." That's perfectly legitimate since it's a personal preference. To make some claim that the movie is objectively bad or worse than previous movies because of that would be, as I see it, illegitimate.

But I think it's still possible to criticize some elements as problematic - and still like the movie overall. I think they make a mistake in discussing specific time values for their fuel and pursuit because it makes something concrete that probably would be better a bit more vague. How long does it take the Millennium Falcon to get from Hoth to Bespin and how long does Luke train with Yoda? *We don't know.* Ergo, there's all sorts of narrative room for the viewer to make assumptions. Eighteen hours in The Last Jedi removes that narrative room, which, I think, doesn't do the movie any favors. That said, I clearly don't consider it fatal since I enjoy the movie. I just see it as something they could have done better.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

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## Gradine (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> There may be legitimate reasons to criticize TLJ, but many of them do not hold up under scrutiny.




It's true that a lot of the criticisms are tied towards political beliefs rather than directly attacking the quality of the film. I can admit that I'd have issues with a film, regardless of the quality of its make, that wears on its sleeves ideals and messages that I disagree with (for example, I've made no secret of my contempt for "won't anyone think of the poor disenfranchised angry white man" genre of film, despite also acknowledging the competency of the craft of such films as _Falling Down _or _Joker_). Of course, I would argue that in this case those values run contrary to the values that Star Wars has always espoused (see also: Chuck Wendig's "you're not the Rebels; you're the Empire" rant). 

Some of the complaints, though are, of a structural nature. Look at the common whipping boy: Canto Bight. Which, when you break it down, served the same role as the Hiding in the "Cave" segment from ESB; ie, we're just here to learn more about the characters and develop their relationship further, literally nothing plot-wise of consequence has occured; Canto Bight is just like... three times longer. And while it is technically doing _more _(world-building, introducing a new character, making very sure you know what this film is _about_), it does drag on a bit long. The whole film is a bit structurally weird; I think, ultimately in a way that serves it, but it's definitely not standard Hollywood storytelling (not that the best Star Wars ever are). 

I can also see why people are disappointed in Luke's character development, I'll admit to being initially disappointed as well; but the more I thought about it the more I realize how fitting it is  As one critic eloquently put it: "Star Wars isn't the story where daddy figures swoop in to save the day; it's the story where daddy figures screw up and disappoint you."

If there's one criticism I agree with is that it doesn't quite stick the landing, tonally. At least for the characters we're following, anyway. The ending stinger with the kid and the broom was brilliant; it nails down the theme of the movie perfectly. People who say all the stuff on Canto Bight had no payoff are wrong; that scene is the payoff.


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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I know you're overly literal, but you don't know what you're talking about here.




Clearly you've never actually watched 'Hidden Fortress'.



> Look, if you want to understand this, that's fine, but you don't seem to have a real grasp of either Kurosawa or what was lifted. This is quite literally some of the most basic stuff imaginable.




Look, I've seen 'Ran' (wasn't impressed), 'Seven Samurai' (a classic), 'Rashomon' (one of the best movies ever made), etc., and you've just outed yourself. I like movies with subtitles. 'Rashomon', 'Amelie', 'Crouching Tiger: Hidden Dragon' are some of my favorite movies, and in my opinion some of the best movies ever made.

The character of Luke or really any analogue of him doesn't appear in the 'Hidden Fortress', and so correspondingly the plot points that I outlined about 'Star Wars' do not appear in 'Hidden Fortress' at all. On a really basic level, if you don't have a 'Luke' character, then you can't have a bildingroman and you can't have the plot points I just gave. So when I give an outline of 'Star Wars' focused on Luke's actions, and you respond that it is just "'Hidden Fortress' for dumb people" you are trying to sound really literate and knowledgeable, but really you are just coming off as pretentious and clueless.

"Hidden Fortress" is an entirely different movie, and while Lucas may have admired aspects of it, and have been inspired to begin the story from the perspective of C3P0 and R2D2 by it, that idea of starting from two slightly bumbling minor characters was one of the few things actually lifted from the movie.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> But rather than engaging with you and your singular inability to either be civil...




Says the guy whose comment is, "_Hidden Fortress _for dumb people who can't read subtitles and think "foreign film" is a pejorative term used by fancy lads."?

You can go running off to the admins or block me or whatever it is you want to do, but being incivil and then complaining about how the conversation isn't civil is and always will be ridiculous. 

There are maybe 60 or 70 seconds of footage with C3P0 and R2D2 where there are 'Hidden Fortress' allusions, but none of that has anything to do with the Luke plot outline I just gave.


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## generic (Dec 16, 2019)

Every other film > The Last Jedi.

There's my tierlist.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## generic (Dec 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Most people are not quite so fond of the Holiday Special, but to each their own.



Even the Holiday Special can't ruin a scene of climactic action with a pointless and utterly stupid romantic moment between two characters that the film never bothered to justify to me beforehand.


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## Celebrim (Dec 16, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> Even the Holiday Special can't ruin a scene of climactic action with a pointless and utterly stupid romantic moment between two characters that the film never bothered to justify to me beforehand.




Which one are you thinking of? Because this doesn't just happen in the movie once, and in both cases it's utterly bizarre in the context of what we have been told thus far about the characters. I mean, at least Tanis and Kitiara have a history, so that their relationship makes some sense.   

More to the point, as abysmally bad as the Holiday Special was and is, it doesn't undermine the integrity of the original trilogy. It might undermine the integrity of the actors that appeared in it, but it doesn't attack the basic story.

TFA/TLJ belong in the netherworld of works that actively undermine what made a good work of art good, alongside almost everything in the Potterverse since the conclusion of the original stories (particularly 'Cursed Child'), Tolkien's decision to try to completely rewrite his foundation myths in the midst of writing the Silmarillion, Orson Scott Card's rewrite of 'Ender's Game' in 'Ender's Shadow', and Lucas himself tinkering with his original classics with the various 'Special Edition' edits. 

But in most of those cases, you have an author questioning themselves and attacking the integrity of their original works.  In the TFA/TLJ case, you have another author undermining the integrity of another author's work.


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## generic (Dec 16, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Which one are you thinking of? Because this doesn't just happen in the movie once, and in both cases it's utterly bizarre in the context of what we have been told thus far about the characters. I mean, at least Tanis and Kitiara have a history, so that their relationship makes some sense.
> 
> More to the point, as abysmally bad as the Holiday Special was and is, it doesn't undermine the integrity of the original trilogy. It might undermine the integrity of the actors that appeared in it, but it doesn't attack the basic story.
> 
> ...



I think you misunderstand my post.  I'm jokingly referring to the Holiday Special, and then instantly switching over to a point on TLJ, the moment between Finn and Rose, to be precise.  

So yes, but actually, no.  What I mean by this is that your conception of my post was incorrect, but your formulation is one which I agree with.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 16, 2019)

Everyone- especially @lowkey13 - please don’t comment on how you intend to use the ENWorld ignore function in the future.  Use or don’t use.






I had to hand out a couple of warnings.  Those who got them should probably take a break from this thread.


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## billd91 (Dec 16, 2019)

Totally time to post this again:


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## Warpiglet (Dec 16, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Which one are you thinking of? Because this doesn't just happen in the movie once, and in both cases it's utterly bizarre in the context of what we have been told thus far about the characters. I mean, at least Tanis and Kitiara have a history, so that their relationship makes some sense.
> 
> More to the point, as abysmally bad as the Holiday Special was and is, it doesn't undermine the integrity of the original trilogy. It might undermine the integrity of the actors that appeared in it, but it doesn't attack the basic story.
> 
> ...




Very closely mirrors my thoughts though I was excited by the force awakens at times.

My gripe about tlj was that it seemed wildly incongruent with how I felt about Luke and really the force.  Whatever.  Struck me as very off.

It did not seem like a continuation of the originals.  It seemed like revisionist history.

Maybe just maybe the rise of skywalker will rally and establish balance to the force.

Or not.  It will be ok.  I've always got d&d....


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## Hussar (Dec 16, 2019)

I always find it funny that folks can't simply dislike something.  It's never good enough to say, "Yeah, I didn't like that".  No, whatever they dislike has to be garbage, or undermining what came before, or poorly written, or whatever.  Because, heaven forbid, that anyone admit that while something isn't to their taste, that doesn't make it bad.

Oh noes, the original trilogy heroes don't get their happily ever after.  Who cares?  Happily ever after is boring and pointless.  No, you torture your protagonists because, well, that's what you do in drama.  

"Integrity of the story"?  Sorry, no.  Stories don't have "integrity".  You want that happily ever after for the original trilogy protagonists?  Write fanfic.  Let the rest of us have actual meaty stories where the characters are challenged and have to rise to new challenges.  The primary theme of Star Wars, as was mentioned earlier, is that the older generation constantly screws up and it's up to the next generation to fix the mistakes.

Why should the latest movies be any different?


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## lowkey13 (Dec 16, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I always find it funny that folks can't simply dislike something.  It's never good enough to say, "Yeah, I didn't like that".  No, whatever they dislike has to be garbage, or undermining what came before, or poorly written, or whatever.  Because, heaven forbid, that anyone admit that while something isn't to their taste, that doesn't make it bad.
> 
> Oh noes, the original trilogy heroes don't get their happily ever after.  Who cares?  Happily ever after is boring and pointless.  No, you torture your protagonists because, well, that's what you do in drama.
> 
> ...




It's more because they basically copied Luke's background, gave it to Rey and then gave her Anakins saber, Hans blaster, Hans ship, didn't follow up on plot hooks and didn't follow the internal logic of the Star Wars Galaxy.

It was also a rushed draft, over lapping with TFA. This is why Finn essentially gets the same story twice. They hinted at a bromance with Poe or Finn/Rey and then introduced a new character and doesn't follow that up.

Then there's big plot holes obvious to a casual observer such as Rey having to pilot the Falcon and Poe the TIE fighter and then a few hours later Finn can pilot a ship to Canto Bight.

 They don't develop any of the villains, Kylos a mess, there's no chemistry between the cast, they kill off the one villain they do have and then use everyone that's not Rey as comic relief. 

Throw in space Mary Poppins, Kylo being all over the place, Luke doing a 180 and it comes across as a mess.


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## Hussar (Dec 17, 2019)

Star Wars has giant plot holes?  The hell you say.  

A sequel that passes things along to the next generation?  Oh, the horrors.  What could they possibly be thinking?

Rey can pilot the Falcon gets criticized, yet, Luke becomes an ace pilot with an X-Wing, the most advanced fighter in the setting, with zero training.  Oh, right, he can fly a completely unrelated ship.  

I'm just so tired of watching people put the OT on a pedestal, beyond any criticism, but, the new movies get held to an impossible standard.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Star Wars has giant plot holes?  The hell you say.
> 
> A sequel that passes things along to the next generation?  Oh, the horrors.  What could they possibly be thinking?
> 
> ...




Never said anything about Rey piloting a ship.

They established Finn couldn't it's why he needed Poe. They're pilots Finn's not. Next movie Finn's flying a ship after establishing he can't lol. He's a trooper not a pilot.

They establish that Luke's a pilot before he jumps into the X wing. Rey's a bit more ambiguous,  Finn can't hence why he needed a pilot right at the start of TFA.


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## Hussar (Dec 17, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Never said anything about Rey piloting a ship.






> Then there's big plot holes obvious to a casual observer such as Rey having to pilot the Falcon






Huh?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Huh?




Yeah badly worded. I meant Rey and Pie flying ships because Finn can't. At least in TFA.

In interview s Rian Johnson iirc said they had no overarching plans for the trilogy. I suspect it will end up feeling disjointed compared to the other two trilogies.  You'll end up with a ANH remake, First order being awesome and First Order being sidelined/folded into Palps is back.

By that I mean building up the First Order and Smoke was semi pointless due to part 3. But they had to bring Palps back due to pt 2 they don't have time to develop a new villain.

There's 4 things they can do with Kylo in the last movie he lives/dies and is redeemed/not redeemed.

If Kylo died and is redeemed we're back where we were at the end of RotJ makes this new trilogy essentially pointless. If he dies it makes the Skywalker saga semi pointless there's no Skywalker's left.

Sure Rey might take the name or found a new order named Skywalker's bit then you have 3 generations of Skywalker's essentially suffer, die wash rinse repeat and then their name gets taken by another.
Probably not a very satisfying finish.

If Kylo died but doesn't redeem still not very satisfying has a worse outcome than Vader.

I suppose he could live but I doubt they will do that although it's probably a better ending than duplicating RotJ ending. Original they are not.


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## Hussar (Dec 17, 2019)

See, I never judge a movie based on how I want it to end.  What's the point of watching a movie (or reading a book) where you dictate to the creator how it ends?  Where you feel so much ownership over someone else's work that in your mind, a work is good or bad depending on how closely it follows what you think is a good ending?  

No thanks.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> See, I never judge a movie based on how I want it to end.  What's the point of watching a movie (or reading a book) where you dictate to the creator how it ends?  Where you feel so much ownership over someone else's work that in your mind, a work is good or bad depending on how closely it follows what you think is a good ending?
> 
> No thanks.




 As long as the ending good it doesn't matter what I expect.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 19, 2019)

Saga is complete and after some rewatches.

Top to bottom

ESB
ANH
RotJ
Rogue One
Solo
TFA
RotS
RoS
TLJ
TPM
AotC
Clone Wars animated movie


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## pukunui (Dec 19, 2019)

_Empire Strikes Back_ and _Rogue One _top my list

_The Phantom Menace _and _Attack of the Clones _are at the bottom.

Everything else is somewhere in between. I haven't quite figured out an order yet.


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## Sadras (Dec 19, 2019)

What I have found about myself is that I'm more forgiving of movies when I watch them years later.

So I enjoyed the originals, then became disillusioned with the entire SW universe when I saw the prequels on the big screen. I watched them recently and was less bothered despite the issues I had. Of the new ones I have only bothered to watch Rogue One and I was not impressed. Perhaps in a few years if I watch it (and the others), I will appreciate it more.

I did the same with the marvel movies before the 2-part Avengers 3 came out. I believe it has to do with enjoying the serialised aspect of watching a group of connected movies as opposed to them being stand-alone movies where one, perhaps, critiques it more harshly. Also there is something to be said watching them back to back in the comfort of one's home.

Has anyone else experienced this?


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Has anyone else experienced this?




I'm rather the reverse. I'm always more critical of movies the more that I watch them. I can't think of a movie which I didn't like, but which I had a better opinion of on rewatching. On the other hand, I can think of many movies I remember liking, but which didn't survive a rewatch.

I slept overnight on the concrete to get tickets to TPM, not because I needed to by that time, but just to be there with my fellow geeks who had loved this movie since they were tiny. And the first time I saw TPM, I thought it was OK. It was a beautiful film, and I was mostly bothered by the lack of memorable lines other than the overt insert of familiar ones. It was only on rewatching it the next day that I really started finding flaws that I found serious and which started to detract from my enjoyment.

TFA I enjoyed for the first 30 minutes or so, but then about halfway through the movie I observed I was actually bored. And the more the movie advanced, the more I was annoyed with the portrayal of Han and Leia, and the more I was annoyed how it seemed to have almost exactly the same structure and plot points as 'A New Hope', and the more I was annoyed by the illogical actions the characters were taking purely to hit the writer's desired plot points. By the end of the movie, I was actively hating the movie, and in particular I realized that all the mystery boxes that Abrams was presenting to the viewer actually didn't hold anything. I didn't know who the 'Knights of Ren' were because Abrams didn't know either. I didn't know who Rey was because Abrams didn't know either. I didn't know why Luke's academy had failed because Abrams didn't know either. I didn't know why Luke was in hiding because Abrams didn't know either. I didn't know who Snope was because Abrams didn't know either. All these supposed mysteries that Abrams was telegraphing as important to the story where just gift wrapped boxes with no gift. It was plain bad writing that didn't bode well for the future.

TLJ not only confirmed those fears, but it was just horribly written to the degree of being unprofessional. My tolerance of the movie ended within seconds with the lame straight from an after school TV show dialogue between Hux and Po which rivaled or exceeded in inanity any of the dialogue from the Star Wars TV specials, including the Holiday special.

I think I could partially forgive all the stupidity of the writing and the vapidness of the plot if Han, Leia, and Luke were given better less cynical treatments, or even if the story had been about those three failing and their failures had been something believable and foreseeable in hindsight based on their character. But Leia seems to fail only because she is a girl - which is insulting and infuriating - and Han and Luke fail in ways that are contrary to the central aspects of their character that we have seen up to that point.

There are a few things I like about the two new movies.  Mark Hamill gives an incredible performance despite the poor material he's given to perform.  Although the script does nothing with her character, Rey is introduced very skillfully.  Both movies are for the most part beautiful films, and both directors better handle a camera than Lucas did in the prequels.  Many of the locations such as Luke's island retreat are brilliantly chosen.  There are occasional moments that could have been part of a better film.  Luke should be challenging the goodness of the Jedi and should be demanding a change in direction, and that was something I wanted to see, but then Luke has nothing to say and is deceived again by the Jedi in a complete jerk move by Yoda that makes me dislike him now even more than Obi Wan.  And the temptation by Kylo of Rey is a well done scene, albiet one which in context makes absolutely no sense given that only hours have taken place since Rey watched Kylo brutally murder his own father, a man she had a developing friendship with.

But overall, these are just bad movies, and you aren't missing anything by missing them.



> Of the new ones I have only bothered to watch Rogue One and I was not impressed. Perhaps in a few years if I watch it (and the others), I will appreciate it more.




Rogue One had two flaws.  The first is the pacing of the first half of the movie, which is disjointed and slow.  There are too many cuts between locations, and not enough going on that is meaningful.   This is a minor flaw.   The more serious flaw is that there is some serious illogical hoop jumping that characters are made to jump through in the middle of the movie in order to achieve certain plot points, and it's both bad and unnecessarily bad writing.  In particular, I'm thinking of Rebel commands decision to continue to try to assassinate the lead engineer on the Death Star project AFTER they have learned that the Death Star is already operational, something which makes absolutely no sense at all and which could easily have been corrected.  Beyond that, how much you like the story tends to be a matter of opinion.  Those that like it are able to forgive the flaws given the big pay offs in the final act of the movie, and like the dark gritty tone that the movie sets and the questions that it asks about war and how clean it can really be no matter how just your cause.   Those that don't like it tend to not like the dark, gritty tone, and conflict with moral ambiguity in the middle of what they have always considered escapist fantasy.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 19, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Umbran (Dec 19, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'm just so tired of watching people put the OT on a pedestal, beyond any criticism, but, the new movies get held to an impossible standard.




Yah.

I think it is pretty well established that a great many human judgements are not rational.  They are made on an emotional level, and then we tack on rationalizations that sound good after the fact.  Moreover, the emotioal judgement is made without our conscious knowledge or intent, so we don't notice them happening, and we are led to believe the rationalizations are the real reasons.

Luke and Rey's piloting are a fine example.  The fact that Luke has puttered around in the equivalent of a Piper Cub is not meaningful - he's _never flown in a zero-G environment_.  He's _never flown a combat mission_.  But, somehow, he not only survives the Death Star Battle, but is the bestest of the bestest, and saves the day!  This is like asking my friend, who does fly Piper Cubs occasionally, to get in an F-16 and duel it out against people from the Top Gun school.  It makes no sense!

Which is fine.  This is space opera, he's one of the heroes!  He can have superpowers, and I'm okay with that.  I love the movie anyway.

But, give Rey the same superpower (and heck, do us the favor of making her bump into a few things as she works it out) and OH NOES!  SHE CANT DO THAT!!  SHES NOT LUUUUKE!!!1!"

This does not speak to a reasoned position.  It speaks to an emotional one.  Which I'd also be fine with.  You can have an emotional attachment to Luke that you don't to Rey, so that you forgive or overlook issues with Luke that you don't with Rey.  I'd be cool with that.

But you have to _admit_ that it is emotional.  Don't give me rationalizations that don't hold up under scrutiny.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Umbran said:


> But you have to _admit_ that it is emotional.  Don't give me rationalizations that don't hold up under scrutiny.




You mean like your post? Essentially you just set up a straw man version of one of several complaints about the new movies. You set up the argument in an irrational way. Then you proceeded to claim that your irrational version of the complaint proved the complaint was irrational. 

I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint about the character of Rey that matched the argument you just gave. The complaint about Rey's competency is not that right from the start she had a couple of talents in which she was the best of the best. That's normal in any heroic fantasy for the protagonist to have a couple of talents in which they are the best. 

Your post strikes me as a rationalization itself that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, because while no one I've encountered claims that the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey, those that have a problem with Rey don't construct the argument you've here constructed.  At all.  And as such, however unreasonable the complaints about Rey may or may not be, your dismissal of them seems to me to be emotional.


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## Vael (Dec 19, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'm just so tired of watching people put the OT on a pedestal, beyond any criticism, but, the new movies get held to an impossible standard.




Agreed. The OT has many problems, but all the nitpicks are aimed at the new wave of movies. And of course, George Lucas keeps tinkering with those movies, meaning everyone has a crystallized mental copy that doesn't match what's on screen these days.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 19, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## billd91 (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> You mean like your post? Essentially you just set up a straw man version of one of several complaints about the new movies. You set up the argument in an irrational way. Then you proceeded to claim that your irrational version of the complaint proved the complaint was irrational.
> 
> I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint about the character of Rey that matched the argument you just gave. The complaint about Rey's competency is not that right from the start she had a couple of talents in which she was the best of the best. That's normal in any heroic fantasy for the protagonist to have a couple of talents in which they are the best.
> 
> Your post strikes me as a rationalization itself that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, because while no one I've encountered claims that the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey, those that have a problem with Rey don't construct the argument you've here constructed.  At all.  And as such, however unreasonable the complaints about Rey may or may not be, your dismissal of them seems to me to be emotional.




You don't get out much. This kind of argument that Umbran is talking about comes up *frequently*. *She's* a Mary Sue, not Luke or Anakin (for whatever deranged reasons). The double-standard comes up a lot, even on these boards.


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## Umbran (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> You mean like your post? Essentially you just set up a straw man version of one of several complaints about the new movies. You set up the argument in an irrational way. Then you proceeded to claim that your irrational version of the complaint proved the complaint was irrational.




No.  I gave a point about human cognition which is pretty well established, and then gave one demonstrative example, chosen for convenience. 



> I don't think I've ever encountered a complaint about the character of Rey that matched the argument you just gave.




A rational and logical understanding of statistics should leave you with the expectation that your own personal experience is not terribly relevant, as it likely does not represent a good sampling. 



> Your post strikes me as a rationalization itself that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, because while no one I've encountered claims that the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey...




So much to unpack.

First, as above - your personal experience is not reliably representative.  You probably should stop holding that up as support.

More importantly, please show me where I said, "People claim the new trilogy is bad solely or even mostly because of Rey."

Because, I didn't say that.  Or anything like that.  I gave a very short analysis of one argument, to show how emotional bias is likely present.  What you came out with... is thoroughly unrelated.  If you needed a reductive form of what I said, it would be more, "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons."  Those paying close attention would also note _I think that's valid_, if you admit to the emotional bias.

You don't seem to be responding to what's actually written - folks may decide for themselves if that seems ironic to them, given the point I was making.  In any case, thank you, but I'm done discussing this with you.


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## Vael (Dec 19, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I mean, that's because most of the nitpickers saw the Originals when they were kids. And do you know what?
> 
> The new movies might be good, and all, but you can't snuggle into you NEW MOVIE sheets while playing with your NEW MOVIE action figures and pretending that you're NEW MOVIE Luke Skywaker ... pew pew pew.
> 
> Man, growing up sucks. All that happens for most of us is we get better verbiage to talk about the things we liked as kids, and to trash the things that kids today like.




And that's all well and good, but then there should be some intellectual honestly about it. For example, when it comes to Star Trek, The Next Generation will always be my favourite. It was the one I watched growing up. One of my oldest memories is seeing "Encounter at Farpoint". I remember the summer between "Best of Both Worlds Part 1" and part 2, wondering how they'd defeat the Borg and save Picard. And I can still say that the way they chose was crap, and that DS9 is the superior series, and I can still honestly discuss all of TNG's flaws.

But for some reason, it still seems like the OT is still treated like holy scripture, and the new wave as pretenders. And it creates double standards that ... well ... tbh, comes across as pretty repugnant. I've read too many "critiques" of Rey that read like dog whistle misogyny, and it doesn't help that Luke is above reproach.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

billd91 said:


> You don't get out much. This kind of argument that Umbran is talking about comes up *frequently*. *She's* a Mary Sue, not Luke or Anakin (for whatever deranged reasons). The double-standard comes up a lot, even on these boards.




Ok, I'll try to explain the complaint against Rey and why it is not a double standard, but based on a comparative and real flaw in the writing. Keep in mind that I'm not sure the problem with Rey would make my top 10 list, but it is a real flaw. The problem with Umbran's argument is that it deliberately simplifies the argument down to something that does sound ridiculous, but then you can do that with any argument.

So, as I said, I thought the initial introduction of Rey was pretty good. In her establishing scenes we learn that she is a self-reliant scrounger living on a desert planet, and that she's learned how to survive. This is pretty good background, but it does - I think deliberately - invite comparison to Luke. Both are 'orphans' (or so we think) on desert planet dreaming dreams of far far away. Rey's costuming even calls out Luke's costuming to some degree. So, here is our new Luke. Luke, as I argued earlier, is a character that is about to embark on a Bildingsroman. He's about to be involved in this archetypal coming of age story which involve him discovering and learning to use his powers after many trials and hardships.

What story is Rey about to be involved in? It doesn't have to be the same one as Luke's of course, but what challenge is Rey intended to face? Let's look at Rey and Luke point by point.

Luke early on is beaten unconscious in an encounter with sand people, and has to be rescued by Obi Wan Kenobi - a veteran wizard-knight who will mentor Luke for a while. Rey on the other hand early after we are introduced to her, beats several thugs up using her staff - the first of several demonstrations that learning to fight will not be one of the challenges Rey is faced with.

We learn Luke is a bush pilot, but in an early scene he is speaking with a real experienced pilot about actual travel between the stars, and Han Solo puts Luke in his place real quick by saying, "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops kid..." In Rey's case however, when she encounters the same veteran space pilot, she actually puts him in his place aboard his own ship, by demonstrating greater competency and understanding than he has. So clearly that isn't one of the challenge she has to face either.

Nor for that matter is learning Wookie a problem. She immediately is conversant with Chewbacca as well. Exactly why, we don't know, but she definitely won't be needing a translator droid or an astromech droid. She has those skills covered as well. Compare with Luke's struggles with alien cultures when he's thrust into the unfamiliar territory of the Mos Eisley cantina, and again needs rescuing by more experienced characters.

A bit later on, Rey - having just learned that the force exists - uses a Jedi Mind trick, demonstrating remarkable control of the force without the need to practice or to struggle. So clearly that isn't going to be a challenge she has to overcome either. Right from the first time she encounters the Black Knight nemesis of Kylo Ren - the Darth Vader to her Luke - she is a match for him in every respect. Although Kylo Ren demonstrates a degree of control of the dark side of the force that is the equal of his idol Vader, Rey is able from the first encounter to defeat him. Compare with Luke, who is saved from Vader in the first movie only by the timely arrival of others (Han and the spirit of Obi Wan), and is defeated by Vader almost completely to the point of trying to escape by suicide in the second movie.

Likewise, in the second movie, when Luke goes to train with Master Yoda, we are treated to a montage of scenes of failure - his arrogant angry dismissal of Yoda because he doesn't match his biases, his failure to control his fear and emotion in the cave, his failure with the X-Wing. Throughout the training, Yoda is continually disappointed in him, and repeatedly reminds Luke of his weakness. No one ever reminds Rey of her weakness (except arguably the villains, who in doing so are being villainous). For one thing, Rey doesn't really seem to have one. Immediately upon beginning to train Rey, Luke is awed by her. Luke is impressed. She has phenomenal power. He doesn't really have anything to teach her, and he not she is for the purposes of the story the one who is in the wrong and needs to learn something. So clearly acquiring power and wisdom are not challenges Rey is going to have to face.

Oh yes, and she's a skilled pilot as well.

In RPGs, you have an ensemble cast, and in an ensemble cast there are two things about a character you want to avoid. You can't have a PC that is good at nothing and contributes nothing. If you do, you have a Jar Jar Binks. Nor can you have a PC that is good at everything and who needs nothing, because then there isn't any way to share the story. Indeed, there isn't really any story, because that PC doesn't really have any challenges to overcome by themselves or with the help of friends. On this spectrum, Rey is much closer to the PC that doesn't need anything. No one is allowed to put Rey in her place. No one is allowed to remind Rey of her weaknesses. Rey for the most part doesn't need rescuing. She is in fact self-reliant.

But this raises the question, "What story are you planning to tell with this character? What did you have in mind when you conceived her?" Or to put it another way, "What is the central conflict that the story is going to resolve?"

It's not just that Rey is a pilot and Luke is a pilot. It's not just any one of this points which by themselves aren't all that important. It's all these points taken together that demonstrate the problem.

You see with Luke, because of all of his weaknesses and failures, when he gets to the moment where he can say, "I am a Jedi like my Father before me", it is a moment of tremendous power because he has arrived at the end of the road that he unknowingly glimpsed when he was staring off at the Tatooine horizon. We the audience didn't clearly see where that road was going, anymore than Luke did, but we struggled along with him.

Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey and not mysteriously it's going to feel pretty hollow however they decide to finish it, because Rey really hasn't had any movement with her character and it isn't clear what interesting things you could do with it. I could I suppose be wrong and there be some deep and meaningful conflict that has been well foreshadowed, and suddenly all the Chekov Guns are going to come off the wall and there will be a deep and dramatic tying up of threads, but I'm IMNSHO a pretty good writer, and I don't think that's going to happen.

That's the argument against Rey as a character.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Vael said:


> But for some reason, it still seems like the OT is still treated like holy scripture...




What? Who? No. It's well established even in the fan community that the OT has some flaws. It's however not I think unreasonable to suggest that given the dramatic impact that they had on movie making and the culture and the popularity and lasting critical acclaim that they received, that they were pretty good and indeed historically important movies. But, certainly not 'holy scripture'.



> And it creates double standards that ... well ... tbh, comes across as pretty repugnant. I've read too many "critiques" of Rey that read like dog whistle misogyny, and it doesn't help that Luke is above reproach.




What double standard? Luke is for much of the OT a whiny, unlikable, and often bumbling young man. How is he above reproach?  

The statements you are making here about what is supposedly in other people's minds are bizarre.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Umbran said:


> If you needed a reductive form of what I said, it would be more, "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons."




But I am making the claim that that argument itself is one motivated by emotion and not reason, and that - while it might be true of some individuals - it is not true of "people". Many of the arguments against he new trilogy have rationally constructed arguments behind them that were not retroactively invented just to justify their own emotional reaction.

Your reductive form "People claim the new trilogy is bad for emotional reasons, rather than rational reasons." is simply an emotional attempt to dismiss criticism of the movie. There might be some examples outside of my experience, but those examples wouldn't justify your unqualified claim.


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## Gradine (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Ok, I'll try to explain the complaint against Rey and why it is not a double standard, but based on a comparative and real flaw in the writing. Keep in mind that I'm not sure the problem with Rey would make my top 10 list, but it is a real flaw. The problem with Umbran's argument is that it deliberately simplifies the argument down to something that does sound ridiculous, but then you can do that with any argument.
> 
> So, as I said, I thought the initial introduction of Rey was pretty good. In her establishing scenes we learn that she is a self-reliant scrounger living on a desert planet, and that she's learned how to survive. This is pretty good background, but it does - I think deliberately - invite comparison to Luke. Both are 'orphans' (or so we think) on desert planet dreaming dreams of far far away. Rey's costuming even calls out Luke's costuming to some degree. So, here is our new Luke. Luke, as I argued earlier, is a character that is about to embark on a Bildingsroman. He's about to be involved in this archetypal coming of age story which involve him discovering and learning to use his powers after many trials and hardships.
> 
> ...




The problem with all of this is that it's demonstrably wrong. You cannot watch either TFA and TLJ with anything close to an objective lens and then say with a straight face that Rey "hasn't struggled". Literally her entire arc in TFA is a series of failures that she must still learn to persevere through. There is literally no other possible accurate reading of her arc in that film.

Because the actual text does not support what you and many other critics of Rey's character want to assume to about her, you have resorted to making things up and ignoring reality in substitution of your own. There is absolutely no reason to accept such arguments as being made in good faith. That is the emotional argument that Umbran is referring to.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Gradine said:


> The problem with all of this is that it's demonstrably wrong. You cannot watch either TFA and TLJ with anything close to an objective lens and then say with a straight face that Rey "hasn't struggled". Literally her entire arc in TFA is a series of failures that she must still learn to persevere through. There is literally no other possible accurate reading of her arc in that film.
> 
> Because the actual text does not support what you and many other critics of Rey's character want to assume to about her, you have resorted to making things up and ignoring reality in substitution of your own. There is absolutely no reason to accept such arguments as being made in good faith. That is the emotional argument that Umbran is referring to.




Excuse me, but this is a naked assertion without any evidence.  (Or as Monty Python would note, it's just contradiction, not an argument.)  I cited specific instances from both trilogies. You have declared me demonstrably wrong but made no attempt at proving this by citing the "actual text".

Therefore, which of us ought to be considered to be arguing in "good faith"?


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## Vael (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> What double standard? Luke is for much of the OT a whiny, unlikable, and often bumbling young man. How is he above reproach?
> 
> The statements you are making here about what is supposedly in other people's minds are bizarre.




And yet Luke's competence is never questioned, while Rey is dismissed as a Mary Sue for showing similar skills. This is such a repeated argument that one Star Wars podcast I was listening to makes it a punchline. Look at your massive attack on Rey's character, which I'm not quoting. You elevate Luke at every opportunity to dismiss Rey.


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## Celebrim (Dec 19, 2019)

Vael said:


> And yet Luke's competence is never questioned...




But Luke isn't marked by competence.



> while Rey is dismissed as a Mary Sue for showing similar skills.




But Rey has vastly broader and deeper skills than Luke.



> Look at your massive attack on Rey's character, which I'm not quoting.




Of course you won't, because you can't. I didn't make one attack on Rey's character at all. I made no disparaging comments about her at all.  Indeed, I attributed to her wisdom, power, cunning, martial prowess, technical competency, and heck even likability.  She's the full package.



> You elevate Luke at every opportunity to dismiss Rey.




This is so demonstrably backwards of everything, that you are obviously emotionally overwrought. The argument I developed didn't elevate Luke at all. My entire argument was based around showing just how immature, unskilled, whiny, and well wrong Luke was again and again in the OT trilogy. I wasn't creating an argument around building him up, but on showing how weak he really was. How many times does Han Solo save his life? How many times does Obi Wan Kenobi save his life? Yes, Luke has some core competencies, but one of the classic complaints you will hear from people who don't like the OT is just how unlikable Luke is through much of the trilogy. "But I wanted to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters" is a meme.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 19, 2019)

Lukes whiny annoying and impulsive for most of the first two movies. And gets his ass handed to him multiple times.

It's RotJ Luke people like. ANH it's Han people like.

 Let's face it in a few years no one's going to care that much about the new character s and that's entirely bon the writer's. The actors themselves are better than the OT ones (Hamill wasn't great ANH let's face it).

 Character development wasn't as good as the OT. There was no chemistry like Han plus Leia. Poe and Rey barely interacted.


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## Gradine (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Excuse me, but this is a naked assertion without any evidence. I cited specific instances from both trilogies. You have declared me demonstrably wrong but made no attempt at proving this by citing the "actual text".
> 
> Therefore, which of us ought to be considered to be arguing in "good faith"?




I've gone done this road so many times in so many threads, but sure, what's one more

Here is Rey's arc in TFA:
1) Tries to convince Luke to return to help save the Resistance: Abject failure. Luke does eventually have his "stand down the entire army with a laser sword" moment, but not until after Rey's left him behind and Yoda's force ghost shows up to knock sense into him.
2) Tries to convince Luke to train her as a Jedi: *Struggles* but then succeeds in _finally _convincing Luke to train her only to scare him off halfway into the first lesson and piss him off further by going to see the mirror. Speaking of...
3) Tries to learn more about her parents and destiny: Regardless of what RoS does or not retcon re: her parentage (I've yet to see it) there is no way to not regard this as an abject failure. The mirror literally shows her nothing about her parents, and she fails (at least at the time) to even learn the lesson from the experience (that her lineage isn't what matters, what matters is _who she is and decides to be_). That, or maybe JJ decided that Kylo Ren was lying to her  but even then it means she fell for it, and it nearly breaks her.
4) Tries to turn Kylo Ren: Abject failure. At best she opens him up enough to the light side that he kills his master to free her. At worst he merely used her naivety as an opportunity to overthrow his master and gain control of the First Order himself. It's left deliberately vague how close he ever gets to actually turning or whether he ever did at all; but considering where he ends up I'd personally lean towards the latter.
5) Coolest Lightsaber Fight in the Series: You can fight me on this, but you'd be wrong. Anyway, what happens here? Oh yeah, she nearly gets killed until Kylo Ren intervenes. But please, do tell me more about how she _never _needs anybody's help to do anything.
6) Shoots down some TIE Fighters: Well I mean yeah, but who hasn't?
7) Lifts some rocks: Hey look, Rey finally does something right and helpful at the end of the movie! And it isn't tied to some massive destiny she's been chasing the entire movie, or destroying or redeeming some great evil. It's literally moving some rocks so a couple of dozen freedom-fighters can escape to fight another day. Almost like she has to learn that what isn't important is the size or scope of the role she is to play in the endless struggle, simply that she does what she can to play her part in the greater picture. Almost like this movie has themes or something.

Oh, and for your cherry-picked examples from the end of TFA, you, like most of Rey's critics, cheerfully ignore the examples in the text that don't conform to your very specific (and wrong narrative):
1) "but she just uses a jedi mind trick with no struggle or problem!" - First off, she fails the first time she tries it. Secondly, if Rey is said to have a single core competency, it is that she is a quick study. The relationship between Rey & Kylo in both movies is that of a reluctant teacher and even more reluctant student. She's _learning _from Kylo's attempted mind torture. The thought "hey maybe I can control this stormtrooper with my mind" doesn't just spontaneously spring forth fully-formed from James Bond's forehead. Kylo showed her how to do it by trying to do it to her (never mind that it's fairly well-established at this point that she's a total Jedi fangirl). Then she tries it _and fails_. So then she _tries it again_. It's almost like perseverance is one of her other strongest character traits.
2) "b-b-but she beat Kylo!" - Now this one is a doozy, simply because it is an argument made by people who have somehow missed the extreme, almost _comical _lengths the movie has gone through to demonstrate how just how *hurt *Kylo is before they even lock lightsabers. Dude took a direct hit from a _bowcaster_. Did you think that whole running gag about how ridiculously powerful that gun is was just for a cheap guffaw? Did you think he was just punching himself in his wound over and over again for fun? In crass RPG terms, he is taking some serious penalties to his attack rolls. I mean, never mind that he just killed his father, something we know he has been conflicted about the entire length of the movie. He's not exactly the most stable guy in the first place. And _even after all that, the fight ends in a _*draw.*
3) So, there's been much ballyho about the respective power levels of Kylo and Rey compared to past observed Jedi. To that I would say: did you see the prequels? But let's leave those in history where they belong for a moment. Are Rey and Kylo demonstrably, strangely powerful force wielders? Yes. In fact, their "raw strength" is commented on, in-text, by someone I would expect we could treat as an authority on the subject. It's almost as if the Force is... doing something. Like... ending a long nap. If only there were a word...

In any case, this has been long what is sure to be pointless exercise in fruitlessly debunking bad faith arguments.

I guess it does help to remind me how good these movies are. I mean, of course they aren't perfect, but TFA is solid and TLJ flirts with and occasionally reaches honest-to-goodness greatness, and it's because of how much time and energy they've dedicated to crafting good characters and, especially in the case of TLJ, following through on themes.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 19, 2019)

We just finished our re-watch of the whole series.......and wow, the characters are stupid over and over again in the Last Jedi. I had forgotten how bad it was. Still better than the prequels, though possibly not better than Ep 3......Some fun moments in TLJ, but the stupid burns.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 19, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Lukes whiny annoying and impulsive for most of the first two movies. And gets his ass handed to him multiple times.
> 
> It's RotJ Luke people like. ANH it's Han people like.
> 
> ...




On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.


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## Gradine (Dec 19, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.




I bet there's lots of sand at the Toshi Station


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## Vael (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Of course you won't, because you can't. I didn't make one attack on Rey's character at all. I made no disparaging comments about her at all.  Indeed, I attributed to her wisdom, power, cunning, martial prowess, technical competency, and heck even likability.  She's the full package.




To sum up your 15 paragraphs ... Luke is on a Hero's journey, Rey isn't. Because Luke gets beat up by Tusken Raiders and a trash monster and whines about his lot in life, it's okay for him to kill a Death Star, but Rey flying the Millenium Falcon or defeating Kylo Ren isn't a worthy character arc because 



Celebrim said:


> Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey




is pretty darn dismissive. Just because you didn't use the words "Mary Sue", doesn't mean they aren't there.

And you're also wrong. Rey's story mirrors Kylo's story, they're both OT fans. Kylo starts the series wanting to be as powerful as Darth Vader, not recognizing his own power, he literally stops a blaster bolt in midair. Rey idolizes the old Rebellion heroes, but she's still waiting for her family, for belonging.

And what happens when Rey meets her heroes? Han, who ran away from Leia in an attempt to reclaim his old roguish lifestyle, and Luke, who ran away to wither and die? She sees the human frailty behind the legends and stories and realizes her own potential, while Kylo wants to burn the past and forget it.

In a way, Luke, Han, Kylo and Rey are all trapped by the past, and their reactions to it are their main character arcs in TFA and TLJ. Han and Rey both want to retreat to a time "before", Rey, the security of her family, Han, the life he had as a care-free scoundrel. Kylo wants to kill the past, Luke is wallowing in it.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 19, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.




Yeah I didn't like Anakin until the Clone Wars cartoon.


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## Mallus (Dec 19, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> But Luke isn't marked by competence.



That's a very strange thing to say about a farm boy who survives the Death Star attack run - and delivers the fatal blow.



> But Rey has vastly broader and deeper skills than Luke.



Arguable. I think what we've seen so far (pre-Rise) is Rey having an exceptionally strong connection to the Force.

Don't mean to be terse, but on my way out of the office...


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## Hussar (Dec 20, 2019)

Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter?  So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 20, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter?  So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?




 It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.
 He wasn't busting out force powers either.


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## Sadras (Dec 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.He wasn't busting out force powers either.




No doubt the TPM was an entire drain full of crap, but I believe the point Hussar is making is that force-able persons have an edge, whether it be in intuition, in their reflexes or general skill, and it has nothing to do with active force-usage like telekinesis, electrical powers...etc. Imagine it in terms of passive power.


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## Hussar (Dec 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.
> He wasn't busting out force powers either.




Regard it as bad all you like, but, it's still canon.  You cannot bitch on one hand that Rey is not following canon and then ignore the actual canon of the story.  If the Force can allow a child to defeat highly trained pilots and racers, then, well, fighting a heavily wounded Kylo Ren to a draw doesn't seem like a stretch, does it?


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## Morrus (Dec 20, 2019)

Current ordering:

IV, V, VI, R1, IX, VII, VIII, S, III, I, II

VII and IX might swap places, as they're very close, but I can't tell this soon after IX.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 20, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Regard it as bad all you like, but, it's still canon.  You cannot bitch on one hand that Rey is not following canon and then ignore the actual canon of the story.  If the Force can allow a child to defeat highly trained pilots and racers, then, well, fighting a heavily wounded Kylo Ren to a draw doesn't seem like a stretch, does it?




It's not that she was busting out force powers untrained. I'm not claiming it's not canon it's poor storytelling contradicting the training in the prequels.

 It's harder to connect with her as a character because she's so good. There's no drama and it's entirely predictable.

 Also same movies that whole Jedi/With training thing. Needs to be internally consistent.
 Also Anakin is the chosen one


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## Gradine (Dec 20, 2019)

Revised list, post episode IX-
Edit: Actually, I try to add a little more granularity here:

Tier 1a (Cream of the Crop) - Empire Strikes Back, The Last Jedi
Tier 1b (Objectively Not As Good As 1a But My Inner Child Still Loves The Most) - Return of the Jedi
Tier 2a (Still Very, Very Good) - A New Hope
Tier 2b (Solid, Fun Star Wars Flicks) - The Force Awakens, Rise of Skywalker

From here is a substantial gap, then each movie gets its own tier:
Tier 3 (Fine, Just Fine, Really)- Solo
Tier 4 (First 50% Garbage, Last 50% WOW, so solidly in the middle I guess) - Rogue One
Tier 5 (At Least Mostly Works On Its Own Terms: "You Know, For Kids!") - The Phantom Menace
Tier 6 (Way Worse Than You Remember It Being) - Revenge of the Sith
Tier 7 (Trash Compacter) - Attack of the Clones


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## lowkey13 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

Having just re-watched Last Jedi, and hating the stupidity of nearly every character, I am amused by how much people like that movie. It had great moments for sure, but the stupid burned my brain......and no, I'm not trying to convince anyone they are wrong, it's just one person's opinion.....


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## lowkey13 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Morrus (Dec 20, 2019)

I love the premise of TLJ and wish they'd taken it further. It reminded me of "33 Minutes" (or whatever the BSG opener was). A relentless pursuit for the whole movie; just one chase lasting a few hours or days.Staying with the chase, and the drama of that as the rebels got slowly picked off. No Canto Blight, etc. More Duel. As the middle film in the trilogy being _just_ that chase would have been an awesome bit of drama. Dark, lots of character work, a really simple premise/plot.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> So, I will take a stab at this. Let me first start by saying that TLJ isn't perfect- no movie is. And when people talk about "the stupid," they aren't entirely wrong. A major requirement of any movie (or, for that matter, fiction) is the suspension of disbelief. I would say that this is even more important in fantasy/scifi, because if it is lost, you go from "Cool/Awesome" to "Stupid/Ridiculous" really quick.
> 
> This, however, applies to any movie- not just TLJ, but ESB, or ANH ... that's why, for example, people have issues about "nitpicking" things in TLJ when the same issues aren't raised for the earlier movies (a common explanation for that, in my opinion, is that many people who complain about TLJ watched the earlier movies when they were younger ....)
> 
> ...



None of that addresses the stupid by otherwise smart characters and script.

if you can destroy ships by flying thru them at light speed, that's all anyone would do. And all that technology, and they can't fly remotely? We can fly planes remotely now.... You are a great leader/general, and you tell no one your plan? What if you die? And all of that is in the last few minutes ....

I loved Luke as an image. Great Jedi trick. I loved that in that movie it is implied she is no one, and we don't learn about Snoke. But again, none of that is about the stupid. And, I agree with Luke, the story of force users is that their hubris is their downfall.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Morrus (Dec 20, 2019)

They refer to the Holdo Maneuver in the new film. It only works one in a million times.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Morrus (Dec 20, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I accept what the new film says about the old film in much the same way that I accept what Salieri said about Mozart.*
> 
> 
> *Or, perhaps, Falco. ROCK ME AMADEUS!



I don't know what any of that means.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I don't know what any of that means.




You've never seen the movie Amadeus? Youngster.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

Morrus said:


> They refer to the Holdo Maneuver in the new film. It only works one in a million times.




Sounds like a lame justification....but at least they try I guess.

And, that was one of the things I listed, not the only one......


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## Celebrim (Dec 20, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> None of that addresses the stupid by otherwise smart characters and script.




Agreed. Or all the unnecessary script bloat that surrounds all that stupid.

A lot of people who defend TLJ seem to think that the main problem the critics have with the movie is conceptual, and they spend a lot of time defending the concepts. And, sure, in a different movie those concepts could have made for a great movie. This wasn't that movie.

As just one of many examples, there is nothing wrong per se with Luke being a failure as a Jedi Master. In a lot of early post RotJ fan fiction, Luke turns to the Dark Side because a lot of fans thought that Luke's choices would haunt him - "once you start down the Dark Side...". The problem isn't with seeing Luke as a failure, it's with seeing him as a failure based off of such a thin, vague and unimaginative backstory.

The problem with both TFA and TLJ is the same - execution. They are just both dumb. They are dumb and feature dumb characters even by the standards that would hold up at an average RPG table where PCs are infamous for their stupidity. When you have characters repeatedly this stupid as protagonists, it's hard to root for them. This is stupidity that borders on and often becomes immorality. And likewise, when the antagonists are relentlessly stupid, then it's hard to feel any sense of drama. As just one of dozens of examples, imagine Darth Vader in the role of General Hux for the first 5 minutes of TLJ. You would consider that a parody, and you'd be right.

TPM was haunted by a relentlessly stupid and useless character in the form of Jar Jar Binks. But the new trilogy gives every character the Jar Jar Binks treatment.

And other problem, and I guess this is as close as you can get to a real conceptual problem the movies have, is that they are obviously completely unplanned and without a core story. They are obviously making it all up as they go with no overarching goals other than to make 3 movies and make some money. A lot of fans of TFA blame the director of TLJ for messing everything up, but the truth is that there was nothing to mess up in the first place. If there had have been, then there would have been some story guidance as to what plot points to hit and secrets to reveal and what the twists were supposed to be. There were not.

You can retroactively sort of make a core idea out of them if you squint, but the text of the script itself won't support that idea. Supporting some cherry picked idea about what the movies are actually about or what theme that they supposedly have invariably involves fan speculation and referencing things that are not only not in the script but in some fanon backstory, but contrary to the actual script. All of this is just rationalizing away what is obviously true, that there is no overarching theme, no grand story arc, and no journey each character is going to go through because they never thought that far ahead.

Why for example does Poe have so little relationship to Rey? Well, because in early versions of the script he died when his Tie Fighter hit the sand, and he was written back in at a late point in production. And this lack of planning and vision is the real reason for almost everything, including all the stupid.



> if you can destroy ships by flying thru them at light speed, that's all anyone would do. And all that technology, and they can't fly remotely? We can fly planes remotely now....




Defenders of TLJ seem to think problems like this are just nitpicking, but the implications of this thoughtless bit of Deus Ex Machina where you invent a solution to the dead end that you've written your characters into, utterly overturns all of Star Wars star ship combat. Star Wars star ship combat deliberately references World War II air combat in almost every respect to create a visually compelling and mythic form of story telling. None of it makes sense if you think about it too hard, but it is internally consistent provided you don't introduce any obvious technical changes to the conceits.

The implications of the light speed ram doing such tremendous damage to the enemy fleet are not less than:

a) You have just made all capital ships obsolete except possibly the space equivalent of submarines and guided missile cruisers.
b) You have not only made Death Stars obsolete, but you've actually made obsolete any need for Death Stars.
c) This isn't new technology.  So for the last 1000 years or so, all factions on all sides of all wars have just been doing it wrong.

With star fighter scale missiles that can perform light speed rams you can destroy anything up to the scale of planets from virtually anywhere in the galaxy simply by skip jumping.  There would have been no need to attack Star Destroyers with X-Wings.  You could have fired missiles from bases in the outer rim, light jumped them into Imperial Systems, and then light speed rammed whatever you found.  One missile would suffice per Imperial Cruiser/Carrier.  

Any defense of, "You aren't supposed to think so hard about it." is ridiculous. It's Star Wars. It's been obsessively thought about for decades. RPGs, video games, and novels have been written assuming the conceits of Star Wars naval combat as presented for decades. Minor characters that weren't named in the movies got their own short stories, and characters with no more than a few minutes of screen time got whole novelized series devoted to them. To break one of the rules of Star Wars combat that egregiously breaks the entire structure of the setting. Star Wars at this point is to big to sacrifice to one writers failure to think through the implications of how they write themselves out of a trap that resulted from their own poor planning.

And what's bad is how often they pull these technobabble answers out. Because let's not forget, this wasn't even the first movie where they broke the rules to deus ex machina themselves out of a writing trap. TFA saw them pull off a lightspeed jump into the atmosphere of a shielded planet. Rumor has it that the next movie has them pulling off a series of superfast precision lightspeed jumps as easily as "dusting crops".



> You are a great leader/general, and you tell no one your plan?




COBRA is a better run and led military than The Resistance in TLJ.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Agreed. Or all the unnecessary script bloat that surrounds all that stupid.
> 
> edited...
> 
> ...




I'm not quite as distasteful of the movie as your, I just don't like it as much as I fell I should, given the parts I really liked. Again, not trying to change minds here....


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## Celebrim (Dec 20, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> I'm not quite as distasteful of the movie as your, I just don't like it as much as I fell I should, given the parts I really liked. Again, not trying to change minds here....




I'm a notoriously harsh critic. I get that most people don't like it as much as I dislike it. You don't have to.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 20, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> And, that was one of the things I listed, not the only one......



Yes, that statement is correct.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 20, 2019)

TLJ might have worked better as part III of the trilogy, dumping Canto Bight and doing something else with the screen time.


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## Vael (Dec 20, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> None of that addresses the stupid by otherwise smart characters and script.
> 
> if you can destroy ships by flying thru them at light speed, that's all anyone would do. And all that technology, and they can't fly remotely? We can fly planes remotely now.... You are a great leader/general, and you tell no one your plan? What if you die? And all of that is in the last few minutes ....




I find it amusing that fans are willing to tie themselves in knots to explain Han Solo using Parsecs and yet just throw up their hands in disgust at TLJ.

Lightspeed Ramming:

First, the movie itself justifies it. Hux could've shifted fire to the Cruiser, his own hubris gave Holdo the time to line up her shot. Second, it had to be a precise hit, while the Cruiser was still accelerating to light speed, not once you're in hyperspace. Finally, about remote-control ... if the tech was available, you'd have drones, not manned fighters. So if you'd rather have had Luke flying a simulator and remote piloting his X-Wing at Yavin, be my guest. After all, it was a fun scene in Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

Holdo:

She was quite justified in maintaining operational security. We know, from Rose, that Resistance crew were trying to jump ship. I don't think "we're gonna hide out on a planet while they chase our doomed flagship" is necessarily going to improve morale. And if that got out, and someone did cut and run and got caught ... none of them would've made it.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 20, 2019)

I think Hux has the saddest arc in the trilogy.

He starts off as a zealous leader who is every bit Ren’s equal in TFA.

He is then reduced to unwitting comic relief by Poe before being forced to play second fiddle to Ren in TLJ.

And finally he is rendered a bit player by that Pryde guy, who seemingly comes out of nowhere to take over in ROS, and is given nothing to do but make a stupidly suicidal attempt to one-up Ren.

Sad.


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## Gradine (Dec 20, 2019)

Vael said:


> Lightspeed Ramming:
> 
> First, the movie itself justifies it. Hux could've shifted fire to the Cruiser, his own hubris gave Holdo the time to line up her shot. Second, it had to be a precise hit, while the Cruiser was still accelerating to light speed, not once you're in hyperspace. Finally, about remote-control ... if the tech was available, you'd have drones, not manned fighters. So if you'd rather have had Luke flying a simulator and remote piloting his X-Wing at Yavin, be my guest. After all, it was a fun scene in Guardians of the Galaxy 2.




And hey Harrison Ford is always around to ask how well audiences took to Ender's Game.



> Holdo:
> 
> She was quite justified in maintaining operational security. We know, from Rose, that Resistance crew were trying to jump ship. I don't think "we're gonna hide out on a planet while they chase our doomed flagship" is necessarily going to improve morale. And if that got out, and someone did cut and run and got caught ... none of them would've made it.




B-b-b-but she _definitely _should have told the hot-headed a-hole who just got demoted for defying orders! To not do otherwise would be _stupid. _Couldn't she see the camera hovering around him and the big neon "protagonist" sign we was wearing?

Something something, pink hair


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## pukunui (Dec 20, 2019)

Gradine said:


> And hey Harrison Ford is always around to ask how well audiences took to Ender's Game.



Even those weren’t remotely-piloted drones. They were crewed starships that were being remotely commanded.

The only thing I don’t get about Holdo is why she was dressed like she was going to Canto Bight instead of commanding a fleet of soldiers.


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## Gradine (Dec 20, 2019)

pukunui said:


> The only thing I don’t get about Holdo is why she was dressed like she was going to Canto Bight instead of commanding a fleet of soldiers.




I assumed they were going for Mon Mothma vibes?

I imagine some new EU book is eventually going to go into way to much detail trying to explain her backstory and sense of style, at least if the new EU is anything like the old EU.


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## pukunui (Dec 20, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I assumed they were going for Mon Mothma vibes?



Possibly, except Mon Mothma wasn’t a military leader. She was a politician.



> I imagine some new EU book is eventually going to go into way to much detail trying to explain her backstory and sense of style, at least if the new EU is anything like the old EU.



The TLJ visual dictionary has already established that her beavers are designed to show the constellations of her home planet or something.


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## Gradine (Dec 20, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Possibly, except Mon Mothma wasn’t a military leader. She was a politician.




I mean, so says the old EU, but she was pretty clearly leading a meeting about what was pretty clearly a military operation


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## Zaukrie (Dec 20, 2019)

Gradine said:


> And hey Harrison Ford is always around to ask how well audiences took to Ender's Game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mean, if that rant about her hair and style is aimed at me, you are shooting at the wrong person. And somehow she says that she likes the hothead, which I don't get. But that could be me not getting it. 

Again, literally not trying to change minds, and kind of don't like people assuming the worst, rather than just having a conversation about things we actually post... I'll bow out now, as once again emotions are taking over posting here. Rather than just having a good conversation.


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## Gradine (Dec 20, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> I mean, if that rant about her hair and style is aimed at me, you are shooting at the wrong person. And somehow she says that she likes the hothead, which I don't get. But that could be me not getting it.




Apologies that I gave you impression that I was targeting you; my targets here were many and not particularly specific.


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## pukunui (Dec 20, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I mean, so says the old EU, but she was pretty clearly leading a meeting about what was pretty clearly a military operation



I wasn’t referring to the EU. She’s a Republic senator in the Clone Wars cartoon and in a deleted scene from one of the prequels (III, I think).


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## Celebrim (Dec 20, 2019)

Vael said:


> I find it amusing that fans are willing to tie themselves in knots to explain Han Solo using Parsecs...




Han Solo (apparently) quantifying time in Parsecs has always been one of the minor blunders of the OT, and the fans certainly don't like to have to tie themselves up in knots to invent some sort of explanation for it.  It's a clear defect in the film to anyone who knows what a parsec is.



> and yet just throw up their hands in disgust at TLJ.




It's not a fair comparison. Having Han Solo refer to time in units of Parsecs causes a minor bit of agony, but doesn't undermine a significant portion of the setting and has a few simple explanations - even if the real explanation is simply ignorance on the part of the script writer.

What's really funny is watching people twist themselves up to make straw man arguments both about how other people behave or how the whole lightspeed ram can be justified.



> First, the movie itself justifies it. Hux could've shifted fire to the Cruiser, his own hubris gave Holdo the time to line up her shot.




This doesn't hold up. Unlike the escape pods, the Cruiser was 'out of range' as it had continued on to lure the fleet away from the escaping vessels (never mind that the actual range in space is line of sight, we'll just assume this means out of effective range given the limits of their targeting). The amount of time Hux had to shift to the cruiser was minimal even in terms of on screen time (which might even be longer than the time he had available). Moreover, Hux has a good in setting explanation for not expecting a capital ship to ram another capital ship - in setting it's just never done. While we've seen ramming attacks before, they've always involve impromptu 'kamikazi' style attacks, like the one that took out the bridge of the Devastator in RotJ. So even if Hux had been expecting a ramming attack, he had no in setting reason to expect a light speed ram. And the nature of the light speed ram attack means that the Cruiser can safely turn around at virtually any range and close the final portion of the gap more or less instantly.



> Second, it had to be a precise hit, while the Cruiser was still accelerating to light speed, not once you're in hyperspace.




A calculation that cannot be more difficult than the one necessary to jump to lightspeed in the first place.



> Finally, about remote-control ... if the tech was available, you'd have drones, not manned fighters.




But, we've already seen a prequel trilogy and a long running cartoon filled with drone unmanned fighters. So the tech is available. You just build a purpose built droid to fly the missile.   And it's not like highly intelligent homing missiles are unknown in the setting.



> So if you'd rather have had Luke flying a simulator and remote piloting his X-Wing at Yavin, be my guest.




It's not that I would rather that, it's that whenever you introduce the light speed ram attack or try to go through backflips to justify it, you are saying that you prefer that.   That's the reason these sort of things have been through the decades kept out of the canon, and hyperspace jumps have been given so many restrictions on how they can be used.

I'm not even going to get into Holdo.  As soon as I attack how poorly written Holdo is as a character, people are going to start accusing me of sexism (which is IMO itself indicative of a sexist mindset that proves that they, and not me, primarily see the character in terms of the gender).  However, I will say that again, a perusal of what we've learned about script history shows how management decisions and forced rewrites caused plot holes to appear in the script that weren't present in the original.  The original version of the script was much more like Morris's imagined "33" style plot, and there were far fewer plots holes and far clearer motivations on the part of the original version of the characters.


----------



## doghead (Dec 21, 2019)

1. A New Hope.
2. The Empire Strikes Back.
3. Return of the Jedi.

/End


----------



## Vael (Dec 21, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> It's not that I would rather that, it's that whenever you introduce the light speed ram attack or try to go through backflips to justify it, you are saying that you prefer that.   That's the reason these sort of things have been through the decades kept out of the canon, and hyperspace jumps have been given so many restrictions on how they can be used.




In the Force Awakens, Han jumps the Falcon to hyperspace while inside another ship, much to Rey's horror. He then jumps out of hyperspace inside a planet's atmosphere to both Chewbacca and Finn's horror. Luke blind-fires the torpedoes that kill the first Death Star. A single out of control A-Wing takes out a Super Star Destroyer. Primitive teddy bears take out stormtroopers and walkers with stone age weaponry. And no one is suggesting these are the basis for radical changes to how the entire universe should function. Or ... in other words, a wizard frickin' did it, but why is this the bridge too far? The Force was with Holdo and she did something extraordinary. 

And why I let it go, is that that one shot of silence and ships breaking caused by the heroic desperation of Admiral Holdo is one of the top most beautiful sequences in the entire franchise, up with Luke staring into the twin suns in ANH. It was breathtaking.

There are many things in the Star Wars franchise that do not hold up to any scrutiny. From Han talking parsecs to the sentience and status of Droids, to the nature of the Force itself.


----------



## Celebrim (Dec 21, 2019)

Vael said:


> In the Force Awakens, Han jumps the Falcon to hyperspace while inside another ship, much to Rey's horror.




Mine as well.



> He then jumps out of hyperspace inside a planet's atmosphere to both Chewbacca and Finn's horror.




I hated that too.



> Luke blind-fires the torpedoes that kill the first Death Star.




Ok, stop there, because there is a huge difference here at it lies in the writing. Let me give you a lesson in screen writing. Why does the audience buy into Luke blind firing the torpedoes that kill the first Death Star? It's not because of some vague explanation about magic or the The Force. It's not because you can retroactively work it out using things in the larger Star Wars canon. The audience that first saw 'Star Wars' knew nothing about The Force and had no larger Star Wars canon to draw on.

No, we buy that because practically the whole movie has been carefully constructing that moment and building up to it and foreshadowing it. We buy it because the writer has spent several minutes of careful exposition in other dramatic scenes developing the audience to expect that scene and be mentally waiting for it.  If it had just come out of nowhere, it would have been terrible lazy writing that the audience wouldn't have bought it. But the writer did an excellent job setting up that scene in such a way that really any one seeing the scene would know that was the only right way the movie could end and any clever writer that knows the stories work would have been expecting it and would have fist pumped when it happened.

How was this achieved? Well, way back when we first meet Obi Wan, he tells Luke, "You must learn the ways of the force." In doing so, he's telling the audience what the story is going to be about. He's put a gun on the wall that will have to be fired. Then we see Obi Wan in several scenes displaying his mastery of the force and doing extraordinary things. Then we also see Obi Wan explaining to Luke what The Force will enable him to do, and we have a training scene where Obi Wan gets Luke to blindly deflect a blaster bolt with a lightsaber. Note the importance of the fact that it was done blindly. Then later, we have a scene where Obi Wan is fighting Vader, and Obi Wan allows himself to be slain after telling Vader he cannot win. Then, after dead, Obi Wan tells his distraught pupil, "Run Luke!"

So in the context of all this set up, there is no other right way to conclude the movie. If Luke doesn't destroy the Death Star using the force with his eyes closed and with the help of Obi Wan's force ghost, then it's a bad movie that wasted time building up plot points irrelevant to the conclusion and fails to deliver on its themes.

None of that happens in the case of the lightspeed ram. Now, it would have been a terrible idea, but you could set up the lightspeed ram as the appropriate ending to the movie. Think about a movie like "Ghostbusters" that spends an incredible amount of time telling the audience that you should never ever cross the streams, and spends a lot of time telling the audience how bad that would be. Why? Because it's going to use that idea to Deus Ex Machina save the day when all else seems lost, and by telling the audience how terrible that idea is, when the heroes decide to it, the audience has been primed to believe that it is a brave thing for them to do and satisfied when it is used to solve the problem. If on the other hand none of that setup had been done and faced with a problem they had invented on the spot crossing the streams, it would have been a terrible way to end the movie that would have felt lame. So they could have put the heroes in bad situation after bad situation where they told the audience that light speed rams would never work and were hopeless or otherwise done something to set up the action, and then the audience might have had buy in, but that isn't the movie that was made or the script that was written.

And originally it was going to be Ackbar that performed the light speed ram, and that would have at least made it somewhat meaningful because Holdo was just introduced to the story and we hadn't had time to build a relationship with her and like her, where as Ackbar has despite his low screen presence in the original trilogy was already a fan favorite whose you could have built on. And originally, in the story Ackbar was going to be something of a foil, almost a villain in the movie, so that his self-sacrificial act had the added pathos of being redeeming. But Holdo was just there, and when Holdo took over Ackbar's role in the script, they wrote out most of the conflict between her and the protagonists because they didn't think the audience would respond well to a woman in the role of a foil/antagonist because they didn't trust the audience to accept a complicated character if it was a woman, and because they wanted to have a theme of 'strong women'. So while it was always a bad idea, a lot of the wounds here were self-inflicted, because the original script developed that scene a whole lot better than what they ended up with.

And, I think I'm done.   I've wasted enough emotion and time on this.  If you don't understand why Luke blind firing the photon torpedoes is a total contrasting moment in cinema and why it works so well, and why it completely undermines your defense instead of bolsters it, then I'm never going to be able to explain this to you.   Just go ahead and believe it's all just movie magic and there is no craft to writing well and just keep believing that everyone that says the script to TFA and TLJ as filmed are dog turds, really has just some unrational reason for saying that that probably has to do with them not liking strong women or whatever crappy rationalization makes you happy.


----------



## Vael (Dec 21, 2019)

Celebrim said:


> Ok, stop there, because there is a huge difference here at it lies in the writing. Let me give you a lesson in screen writing.




I get it, you're a self proclaimed great writer. But since we're keen on lessons, I'll share one that blew my mind just a few weeks ago.

One of my favourite shows growing up was Blackadder, a comedy starring a pre-Mr. Bean Rowan Atkinson. The final season/series, Blackadder Goes Forth, takes place during WW1, where Rowan's character, the titular Blackadder, was a soldier trying to escape the trenches through a various schemes. A sitcom version of Catch-22, so to speak.

The final episode, after all his comic attempts to avoid having to get out of the trenches and charge the enemy fail, Blackadder, along with all the other main characters, get out of the trenches and charge. And in a hail of machine gun fire, they're all cut down, and then the screen fades to a picture of poppies. A poignant ending to the show.

But that's not how it was written. Or filmed, for that matter. Blackadder was supposed to get away, finally achieving his goal by playing dead. But after shooting, in the editing room, it wasn't working. The effects looked cheap, and due to the small sound stage, the ending of the shot looked fake. And there wasn't the money to reshoot and fix it. So the editors trying slowing down the existing footage so they could cut before the camera saw the edge of the set. They added stock shot of poppies, and that was how we got, what I'd argue is a superior ending to the one that was written.

The point here, of course, is that film is more than what was on the page. And so it is that we got Laura Dern, in purple hair, displaying her qualifications as a BAMF, and the last stand of Vice Admiral Holdo. And between her skills, and the other actors, and the rest of the collaboration, I find it works. Not perfectly, but enough.

But if this is to be the end of our conversation, so be it. At least I won't have to keep fighting the urge to point out the snide quality of your comments about "strong women" as being ... illustrative.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 21, 2019)

Akbar should have been used in the TLJ or used to rally the troops in RoS. 

 Off screen death feels bad man


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## Galandris (Dec 21, 2019)

1. ESB
2. RotJ
3. ANH
4. R1
5. RotS
6. AotC
7. Solo
8. RoS
9. TPM
10. A Christmas Story (only seen on youtube, but I doubt its magnificent grandeur on widescreen would allow it to raised a rank).
9. The first of the sequel trilogy, whose name I have erased from my memory
10. The middle of the sequel trilogy, whose name never registered with my mind


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## Mercurius (Dec 21, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I mean, that's because most of the nitpickers saw the Originals when they were kids. And do you know what?
> 
> The new movies might be good, and all, but you can't snuggle into you NEW MOVIE sheets while playing with your NEW MOVIE action figures and pretending that you're NEW MOVIE Luke Skywaker ... pew pew pew.
> 
> Man, growing up sucks. All that happens for most of us is we get better verbiage to talk about the things we liked as kids, and to trash the things that kids today like.




That's one perspective, which I think has some truth to it but I think is rather reductive and ignores more substantive critiques.

In short, the original trilogy had a freshness, vitality, and mythic resonance that the later films mostly lack. I think also the chemistry of the original cast hasn't been matched. I like the actors in the recent films, but for some reason they come across as less than the sum of their parts, probably due to poor scripting.




billd91 said:


> You don't get out much. This kind of argument that Umbran is talking about comes up *frequently*. *She's* a Mary Sue, not Luke or Anakin (for whatever deranged reasons). The double-standard comes up a lot, even on these boards.




This is just sloppy, and a nasty rhetorical strategy. I'm not saying that it is intentional, but my point is: saying that Rey is a Mary Sue isn't inherently sexist; it _could _be and probably _often _is, but it doesn't have to be, and to imply that any critique of Rey that mentions Mary Sueism is straight out of the "cancel culture" playbook. As others have pointed out, both Luke and Anakin were far more flawed than Rey, who really displays no personal flaws or quirks and a much smoother arc from "newb to force wizard."

Don't get me wrong. I like Rey; and I like the fact that my daughters, 11 and 14, get to see Rey as the protagonist. But I think its valid to criticize how she's been handled as a film character and to draw comparisons to the Mary Sue idea, without it automatically coming from a place of misogyny and/or disgruntled fandom.


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## Mercurius (Dec 21, 2019)

As for the subject of the thread, the only easy and clear way to do this is:

1. The original trilogy - classics, with forgiveable--even adorable--flaws (except the later edits, which mostly tarnish the original films).
2. The new trilogy/anthology films - entertaining and fun, but lacking in vitality, mythic resonance.
3. The prequel trilogy - visually beautiful and imaginative, but that's about it.

There are big gaps between the three trilogies, and the exact ordering within each group can be quibbled and shifts depending upon mood, but the three tiers are pretty straightfoward for me, and no film falls outside those grouped tiers.


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## ccs (Dec 22, 2019)

Galandris said:


> 10. A Christmas Story (only seen on youtube, but I doubt its magnificent grandeur on widescreen would allow it to raised a rank).




A Christmas Story?? 
You mean the Christmas movie with Ralphie, the pink bunny suit, the Leg Lamp, etc? 




__





						a christmas story - Yahoo Search Results
					






					search.yahoo.com
				



Ok, I can (sorta) understand ranking it worse than ANH/ESB/even RotJ.  Many things are below them.
And it's certainly far better than Episodes 7 & 8, and likely this newest installment by default.  Again, many many things are better (includung not watching them).
But worse than the SW prequels??  Really?  You'd rank Midichloreans, Jar-Jar Binks & whiney emo-bitch Anikan from Episodes II & III higher than _Ralphie_???  Poor Ralphie!

Or do you perhaps mean _this crap_: The Star Wars Holiday Special (TV Movie 1978) - IMDb
There's a world of difference between this & A Christmas Story.


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## Gradine (Dec 22, 2019)

So I've been giving this a lot of thought. Too much, probably, but it's well past time. I'm getting an early start on my New Year's resolutions this year.

I love Star Wars. I love every part of it, from it's silly new age mysticism and flagrant disregard for any and all laws of physics, to it's hella sweet laser swords and star fighter laser battles pew pew pew pew. I love the broad, arch characters, the batcrap insane world building, and the slavish adherence to the discredited nonsense theories of Joseph Campbell. I love its deconstructions and its reconstructions. Hell, even the prequels aren't without their moments. Yes, even Attack of the Clones. Star Wars makes me feel like a kid again in a way nothing else ever does or ever will.

You know what I hate? You don't know what I'm OVER? The "discourse". I'm beyond exhausted by it. I hate how it's been dominated by bad faith "fanboys" and their disastrous agenda that stands in sharp contrast to everything Star Wars has ever stood for. I'm beyond tired of gifting my time and energy to sealions who can't be bothered to address facts that contradict them, because the argument has never been the point. They are psychic vampires and I'm done letting them exhaust me.

I know this is considered bad form here, but I think it's important for me to take about. I've never used the ignore feature on this board before. In all the threads about race or gender or sexual harassment, I've never been once tempted to use it. I've always considered it important to try to understand the beliefs of others. Hell I'm trans, and I haven't ignored anyone with a poor grasp of either grammar or biology. This thread was the final straw for me.

Star Wars brings out the kid in me. It is FUN. It makes me smile in a way few other things do. And I'm done engaging with bad faith sealioning trolls who want to ruin that for me.


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## Gladius Legis (Dec 22, 2019)

Updated rankings after seeing The Rise of Skywalker:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars

3. Return of the Jedi
4. Rogue One

5. The Last Jedi (yeah, I moved this one up a couple spots)
6. The Force Awakens
7. Solo

8. Revenge of the Sith

9. The Rise of Skywalker
10. The Phantom Menace

11 (million, billion). Attack of the Clones


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 22, 2019)

For me:

ESB
SW (that's Star Wars. It doesn't have a subtitle)
R1
RotJ
TFA
RotS
RoS
Solo
TLJ
AotC
PM


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## billd91 (Dec 22, 2019)

Now that I've seen Rise of Skywalker (just one viewing so far), my updated order:

Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Rise of Skywalker
Solo
The Phantom Menace
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones


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## pukunui (Dec 23, 2019)

Gradine said:


> ... and the slavish adherence to the discredited nonsense theories of Joseph Campbell.



This is the first time I've heard of this. Care to explain more? How have Campbell's "nonsense theories" been discredited?


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## Gradine (Dec 23, 2019)

pukunui said:


> This is the first time I've heard of this. Care to explain more? How have Campbell's "nonsense theories" been discredited?




I mean, it's more that Campbell's universalizations leave out the storytelling traditions of most of the planet. You'll never guess which cultures _didn't_ factor in to his research!

It's not a bad a way to write a story (as Lucas has proved; it's also served Disney well for decades at this point) but it's neither (a) the only way to tell a heroic story, nor (b) have all stories across the globe and throughout history conformed even remotely close to it, which were Campbell's key assertions.


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## khantroll (Dec 23, 2019)

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Star Wars
Ewoks: Battle for Endor
Ewoks: Caravan of Courage
Phantom Menace
Rogue 1
Droids
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
The Clone Wars
The Force Awakens
Solo
The Last Jedi
Rise of Skywalker
Holiday Special


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## pukunui (Dec 23, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I mean, it's more that Campbell's universalizations leave out the storytelling traditions of most of the planet. You'll never guess which cultures _didn't_ factor in to his research!
> 
> It's not a bad a way to write a story (as Lucas has proved; it's also served Disney well for decades at this point) but it's neither (a) the only way to tell a heroic story, nor (b) have all stories across the globe and throughout history conformed even remotely close to it, which were Campbell's key assertions.



Ah OK. Truth be told I’ve never actually read Campbell myself.


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## Mallus (Dec 24, 2019)

1. Star Wars
2. The Last Jedi
3. The Empire Strikes Back
4. Return of the Jedi/The Rise of Skywalker (tie)
5. The Force Awakens
6. Rogue One
7. Solo
8. Revenge of the Sith
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Phantom Menace


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## Vael (Dec 25, 2019)

As of Xmas Eve:
*1. *Star Wars
*2. *The Last Jedi
*3. *Empire Strikes Back
*4. *Return of the Jedi
*5. *Rogue One
*6. *The Force Awakens
*7. *The Rise of Skywalker
*8. *Solo
*9. *The Phantom Menace 
*10. *Revenge of the Sith
*11. *Attack of the Clones


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## Mercurius (Dec 25, 2019)

Gradine said:


> the discredited nonsense theories of Joseph Campbell




Huh? How are they "discredited?" They aren't scientific theories - they are philosophical, psychological, spiritual. Plenty of people find them very meaningful and of value in their lives.


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## Gradine (Dec 25, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I mean, it's more that Campbell's universalizations leave out the storytelling traditions of most of the planet. You'll never guess which cultures _didn't_ factor in to his research!
> 
> It's not a bad a way to write a story (as Lucas has proved; it's also served Disney well for decades at this point) but it's neither (a) the only way to tell a heroic story, nor (b) have all stories across the globe and throughout history conformed even remotely close to it, which were Campbell's key assertions.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Disney stock dipped slightly, if I had stock I would be selling it. 2020 won't be nice to Disney.


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## Mercurius (Dec 25, 2019)

Oh, OK - sorry, I guess I should have read on .

I don't disagree that they're not as universal as Campbell claimed, or that there are other ways to tell a heroic story. We're in general agreement on both accounts. But I don't think that "discredits" the meaningfulness of his ideas. And it is important to understand that he wasn't primarily talking about telling stories--that came later, when people applied his work to screenwriting  and such--but the human journey. 

I do think that the basic idea of the "hero's journey" is rather universal, although the landscape can be quite different and variable. That is, how it unfolds is different for each and every one of us, but there are underlying archetypal patterns. Campbell was riffing off of Jung, and so his work should be understood archetypally and not literally. In other words, he was talking about deep mythic patterns in consciousness, collective and individual, not quantifiable mechanisms.


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## Hussar (Dec 26, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Disney stock dipped slightly, if I had stock I would be selling it. 2020 won't be nice to Disney.




Really? Third best opening weekend of all time, behind the other two sequels. Is there any doubt that this is going to be a success?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 26, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Really? Third best opening weekend of all time, behind the other two sequels. Is there any doubt that this is going to be a success?




 The opening underperformed it came right on the bottom of the projections. 

Well know more on Monday or so the drop off is key.  It hasn't broken even yet.

 I don't think it will flop but one way or another you can make some good predictions after the second weekend.


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## Eltab (Dec 26, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Really? Third best opening weekend of all time, behind the other two sequels. Is there any doubt that this is going to be a success?



I'll predict that RoS makes back its own expenses (and provides the management team with a nice bonus check) plus some, but will not provide the next Star Wars movie with an adequate cash bankroll, ready-to-spend.


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## Hussar (Dec 26, 2019)

Holy crap. How well does it need to do? Third best of all time isn’t good enough. What it’s not a success if it doesn’t do better than the one before it? Talk about goal posts on roller skates.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 26, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Holy crap. How well does it need to do? Third best of all time isn’t good enough. What it’s not a success if it doesn’t do better than the one before it? Talk about goal posts on roller skates.




Figure thrown about is a billion dollar expectation.

It's break even point is somewhere probably around 600-700 million but could be close to 800 million.

If they "only" make a billion their profit is a couple of hundred million minus tax. Possibly less.

They get about 60% of the box office on average, less in foreign markets.  The problem being they've probably spent 250+ million to make it, and 100 million+ on marketing and that's probably conservative on the marketing.

Note they made 700 million on TFA on 2 billion dollars. TLJ made 1.3 billion but it hits their profit.  TLJ had a big drop off week 2, their movie got less than TLJ opening weekend.

If they've spent more like 400+ million on 1 billion they make "only" 200 million. And some estimates of the movie costs are higher than 400 million.

Movie might bomb if they get much lower than a billion or come close to it.

If the movie drops 25-30% week that's good. If it drops 70% that's bad and  yeah could be interesting.

3 numbers

They get about 60% if the box office

Break even is roughly double the movie+ marketing costs. Usually slightly less.

60% of the box office is first 2 weeks.

 We'll have a rough idea how well the movie will do by looking at the drop off this week and maybe one after it.


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## Morrus (Dec 26, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Really? Third best opening weekend of all time, behind the other two sequels. Is there any doubt that this is going to be a success?



And looking like it's going to be one of the bestselling movies of all time.


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## Mallus (Dec 26, 2019)

Eltab said:


> I'll predict that RoS makes back its own expenses (and provides the management team with a nice bonus check) plus some, but will not provide the next Star Wars movie with an adequate cash bankroll, ready-to-spend.



RoS could gross _zero_ dollars (BTW, I believe it passed $500,000,000 globally already) and Disney could (and would, eventually) spend a moon-sized sphere full of cash on the next Star Wars movie.

Disney had %80 of the top-grossing films of 2019. They could bankroll an aircraft carrier, if they chose to (umm, and the government agreed to sell one). Rise is underperforming because it‘s expected to challenge the top box office performers of all time.


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## Anoth (Dec 26, 2019)

Empire strikes back
Return of the jedi
Star Wars (sorry they can’t get away with retroactively changing a title with me)
Attack of the clones
Revenge of the sith
Rogue one
Phantom menace
ewok adventure
The Christmas special 
rise of the skywalker
Solo
The force awakens
The last Jedi


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## OB1 (Dec 27, 2019)

Tier 1 - A New Hope
Tier 2 - Empire Strikes Back, The Last Jedi
Tier 3 - Phantom Menace, Revenge of the Sith, Return of the Jedi, The Force Awakens, Rise of Skywalker
Tier 4 - Attack of the Clones, Rogue One, Solo


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