# The Return of Sword & Sorcery Cinema?



## nikolai (May 13, 2006)

We were talking about this before the boards crashed, when the thread was lost. Things may be looking quite bright for a S&S cinema revival. The only real S&S films this decade have been 'The Scorpion King' and 'Dungeons & Dragons' (and possibly Bloodrayne too). But things are looking up. From what I can remember, here's a brief status report:

* *Bran Mak Morn* - a film staring REH's other Barbarian is currently in production by Working Title.
* *Red Sonja* - her second outing has just been announced by Millennium Films and Emmett/Furla Films.
* *Elric* - Universal have the rights, the script, Moorcock's blessing and the project is moving along.
* *Conan* - WB seems keen to continue the franchise, though the film has been in development hell for some time. Hopefully progress will be made soon. Meanwhile an animated version of 'Red Nails' is going straight to video.
* *Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser* - Dark Horse have recently got their hands on the film rights, and are trying to stir up some interest.

On the mythic side, two Beowulf adaptations are out.

* *Beowulf and Grendel* - a straight down the line arty Icelandic version (thanks Wayneligon).
* *Beowulf* - an animated/CG/motion capture production (thanks Wayneligon).

Several S&S videogame adaptations are also on the way.

* *World of Warcraft* - is being produced by Legendary Films (thanks Insight).
* *Dungeon Siege* - is being made into Uwe Bolls magnus opus.

I'd be interesting in hearing everyone's thoughts.


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## Klaus (May 14, 2006)

I bought the DVD to Curse of the Ring/Ring of the Nibelungs, a made-for-TV production that aired on Sci-Fi recently, and it is head-and-shoulders better than both D&D movies, for instance. Not LotR material, but it is as good as Dragonslayer, and would've merited a theatrical release.


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## Insight (May 14, 2006)

Blizzard/Vivendi just announced a *World of Warcraft* live action movie.


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## WayneLigon (May 14, 2006)

June 16th will be the limited US release of Beowulf and Grendel.


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## Brakkart (May 14, 2006)

Heres another fantasy movie, this one is out in October I believe. No trailer as yet, but the background legend makes for interesting reading:

http://www.eragonmovie.com/


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## Ranger REG (May 14, 2006)

Brakkart said:
			
		

> Heres another fantasy movie, this one is out in October I believe. No trailer as yet, but the background legend makes for interesting reading:
> 
> http://www.eragonmovie.com/



This I don't understand. How is it that this book get to have a film adaptation and not _Dragonlance._

To Hollywood: What the HELL?!?!!!


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## Brakkart (May 14, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> This I don't understand. How is it that this book get to have a film adaptation and not _Dragonlance._
> 
> To Hollywood: What the HELL?!?!!!




Well my guess would be that Eragon is one movie. There is absolutely no way they could do justice to Dragonlance with anything short of a trilogy. Look on the bright side, if a movie about dragon riders does well, it only increases the chances of seeing Dragonlance made. Hollywood LOVES a bandwagon after all.

Me? I'm just glad to see that the success of Lord of the Rings is starting to have this effect and make Hollywood take another stab at doing fantasy films.


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## horacethegrey (May 14, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> This I don't understand. How is it that this book get to have a film adaptation and not _Dragonlance._
> 
> To Hollywood: What the HELL?!?!!!




Because Dragonlance isn't a household name and I highly doubt the Chronicles books have ever made the New York Times bestsellers list. Regardless of what people think of Eragon (I have no opinion, cause I've never read it), it's the better known series, and thus insures a built in audience for a movie.

But back on topic. 



			
				nikolai said:
			
		

> * Elric - Universal have the rights, the script, Moorcock's blessing and the project is moving along.




Never read the novel, but I pretty much know the gist of it. The thing is, is Hollywood or the American audience ready for an albino antihero who's the very opposite of Aragorn?



			
				nikolai said:
			
		

> * Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser - Dark Horse have recently got their hands on the film rights, and are trying to stir up some interest.




I'm quite surprised that Dark Horse is pushing to make a movie of this. Let's hope they can get it done like they did with Hellboy.


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## nikolai (May 14, 2006)

Here's the F&GM link. They're working on a treatment (a pitch of the story) & concept art, so it's really early in the process, but at least someone is doing something.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?id=35790

I didn't include *Eragon* in the list because it seemed to be to be pretty derivative "Lord of the Rings meets Sword in the Stone" style high fantasy. But things are looking very bright for fantasy in general, mainly due to films aimed at kids like Potter & Narnia & His Dark Materials & so on. I hope some of that magic will cross over into S&S.



> This I don't understand. How is it that this book [Eragon] get to have a film adaptation and not Dragonlance.




I think when both _Fellowship of the Ring_ and _Harry Potter_ hit the cinemas and did very well it sent all the studios scrambling around looking for other fantasy and children's fantasy projects to work on. Eragon was released and got to the top of the book charts at just the right moment, it's that simple really.


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## CCamfield (May 15, 2006)

I really don't think of (World of) Warcraft as swords & sorcery, but it might be good, in any case. 

I'll be happier about these projects when they're being FILMED.  The ratio of semi-developed versus actually filmed movies is pretty high.


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## WayneLigon (May 15, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> This I don't understand. How is it that this book get to have a film adaptation and not _Dragonlance._




It's a very popular - and recent - young adult series. With the success of Harry Potter and Narnia, I'd look for Hollywood to do more young adult adaptations before anyone gets the balls or the rep to suggest adult fantasy. We've got this coming, and I thought someone was working on His Dark Materials, though it's probably in development hell.

Now the bad part of Harry or Eregon or Narnia, is that if you have one big ticket fantasy of any stripe, it's unlikely that Hollywood will try to put out another one the same year if it's even remotely the same. And our idea of 'remotely' and Hollywood's is not likely the same. Eregon is about a dragon rider, so that might in their mind kill off any other 'Dragon' properties that year.

Dragonlance would be pretty hard to do in one movie, and I don't look for a deal like LotR got to happen again for a long, long time. If ever. You'd have to have something with LotR's mainstream popularity and I don't think there _is_ anything else comprable. 

You could certainly do three or four connected movies with it, each focusing on a different section of the story. That might work out.

I would have thought we'd be seeing more fantasy by now, myself.


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## James Heard (May 15, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> I'm quite surprised that Dark Horse is pushing to make a movie of this. Let's hope they can get it done like they did with Hellboy.



I'm surprised it's never come up before really, because essentially Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser is about two buddies and Hollywood LOVES buddy movies. The only thing that's really going to be interesting is how they're going to sell a character named Fafhrd to the public properly. I think maybe it would do better if they dropped the notion of calling it a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser story by name, and stuck with an easier story title.


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## Ranger REG (May 15, 2006)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Dragonlance would be pretty hard to do in one movie, and I don't look for a deal like LotR got to happen again for a long, long time. If ever. You'd have to have something with LotR's mainstream popularity and I don't think there _is_ anything else comprable.



Well, I don't want them to do one movie for _Dragonlance._ I want three. If that means producing one film at a time -- rather than all three films in a yearlong-span production shooting period -- so be it.


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## Greyhawk_DM (May 15, 2006)

nikolai said:
			
		

> * *Dungeon Siege* - is being made into Uwe Bolls magnus opus.
> 
> I'd be interesting in hearing everyone's thoughts.




Well if he makes it like he did Bloodrayne, its going to suck.


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## mhacdebhandia (May 15, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Because Dragonlance isn't a household name and I highly doubt the Chronicles books have ever made the New York Times bestsellers list.



Your doubts are unfounded.

In fact, the last four Weis & Hickman Dragonlance novels - _Dragons of Summer Flame_, _Dragons of a Fallen Sun_, _Dragons of a Lost Star_, and _Dragons of a Vanished Moon_ - all hit the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Publishers Weekly best-seller lists. The latter *debuted* at #10 on the New York Times and Publishers Weekly best-seller lists, and #8 on the Wall Street Journal list.

The originals were a pretty major phenomenon; there's a reason Wizards of the Coast still publishes them, and supports Dragonlance in D&D with a core setting book, when the other dead settings are, well, dead: and that reason is spelled "novel sales".


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## jester47 (May 15, 2006)

James Heard said:
			
		

> I'm surprised it's never come up before really, because essentially Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser is about two buddies and Hollywood LOVES buddy movies. The only thing that's really going to be interesting is how they're going to sell a character named Fafhrd to the public properly. I think maybe it would do better if they dropped the notion of calling it a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser story by name, and stuck with an easier story title.




How do you introduce Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to the public properly?  

Easy, make a movie about a huge barbarian and his little buddy sidekick.  Fafhrd is hard to say so borrow from another sword and sorcery franchise and call him "Conan."  But haing Conan and the grey Mouser would piss off all the conan fans and would confuse people, so make some references o ghengis Kahn and use the names of one of his most trusted generals as the name of the sidekick.  Borrow the name of a villain from a completely different Robert E. Howard Sword and sorcery property, but make the villian all about snakes.  Viola.

Less cynically:  A good title for a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser movie would be "Swords Against _________"  or The Swords of Lankhmar, or Lankhmar.


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## barsoomcore (May 15, 2006)

I conducted <a href="http://barsoomcore.blogspot.com/2006/04/ultimate-coolness.html">some analysis on S&S cinema in my blog</a>. And came to the inescapable conclusion that 1982 is a high-water mark for North American culture.

Should even half the listed productions get theatrical release (been hearing about an Elric movie since the 80's so I'm a little cynical), we could be seeing a new coolness.

The rebirth, even, of cool.


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## James Heard (May 15, 2006)

> A good title for a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser movie would be "Swords Against _________" or The Swords of Lankhmar, or Lankhmar.



That's what I was saying. They should refer to the stories by name rather than stress that they're F&GM stories. Leiber made good, cool, accessible titles most of the time. They should use 'em, maybe even if they don't match the actual work that's used in the film. "Ill met in Lankhmar", "The Sunken Land", and "The Mouser Goes Below" probably wouldn't be so inaccessible as to confuse consumers as to either tha characters or the content.

As an aside, it's really hard to believe that it's been so long since Leiber's death and since I read the last of those stories. Wow...time flies.


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## Klaus (May 15, 2006)

Lahkmar seems a natural title for a Fafhrd & Gray Mouser movie. I'd condense Ill Met in Lankhmar and The Circle Curse into a movie, possibly setting up the thing with Duke Danius and Death plus Lean Times in Lankhmar for the sequel. Bazaar of the Bizzarre could be made into a neat 15-minute segment in either movie.


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## sniffles (May 15, 2006)

jester47 said:
			
		

> How do you introduce Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to the public properly?
> 
> Easy, make a movie about a huge barbarian and his little buddy sidekick.  Fafhrd is hard to say so borrow from another sword and sorcery franchise and call him "Conan."  But haing Conan and the grey Mouser would piss off all the conan fans and would confuse people, so make some references o ghengis Kahn and use the names of one of his most trusted generals as the name of the sidekick.  Borrow the name of a villain from a completely different Robert E. Howard Sword and sorcery property, but make the villian all about snakes.  Viola.
> 
> Less cynically:  A good title for a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser movie would be "Swords Against _________"  or The Swords of Lankhmar, or Lankhmar.



And then the Robert E. Howard estate sues you.   

I know Fafhrd isn't a name that's going to please a lot of Hollywood execs or casual viewers, but do we always have to dumb everything down for those people? In the pitch they should just refer to Fafhrd as "the big guy" and don't let the bigwigs see what his name is until the film's already in the can.   

Honestly, though, I'm not very sanguine about a Lankhmar story getting to the screen with any resemblance to the original. They wouldn't just change the character names.


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## James Heard (May 15, 2006)

> do we always have to dumb everything down for those people?



Yes, because people who've never read Leiber's work have more money than those of us who've read it, and every Hollywood bomb for a S&S movie kicks it for every future S&S movie. Therefore, if people can't "get it" then it doesn't do well and it actively contributes to less movies that aren't bad sequels of bad movies that people DO get. That being said, I don't think that Hollywood would have a significant problem figuring out F&GM because it's a buddy movie and they "get" buddy movies.  The problem will be figuring out which of the dozens of short stories mixes well with a movie production, and of course, introducing Fafhrd as someone other than "the big guy". 

It's not a hurdle that couldn't be overcome, if people start saying the name they'll ignore weird spellings. It's probably even worth a joke that wasn't in the original books to make the audience feel "smart". I'm thinking Josh Holloway and Vin Diesel for the two best thieves in Newhon would bring in just about any audience as long as Ewe Boll wasn't directing...


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## jester47 (May 16, 2006)

sniffles said:
			
		

> And then the Robert E. Howard estate sues you.
> 
> I know Fafhrd isn't a name that's going to please a lot of Hollywood execs or casual viewers, but do we always have to dumb everything down for those people? In the pitch they should just refer to Fafhrd as "the big guy" and don't let the bigwigs see what his name is until the film's already in the can.




I guess my point was that the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser movie has already been made and that it was called "Conan the Barbarian."  The story does not do a very good job of depicting Conan, but it does do a great job of depicting Leiber's characters.  Looking at the characters and plot I would believe it if they took a mediocre Fafhrd and Grey Mouser script and got rights to the Conan properties and then changed the names of the characters.


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## jester47 (May 16, 2006)

Ill Met in Lankhmar combined with Theives House, would be a great opener.  Concepts from Cloud of Hate and Claws of the Night would fit well here.  A good followup film would be material from Lean Times as an opener to Swords of Lankhmar with modifications to the rats and Ghouls.  The Rats get a little too "Redwall" to me, and the ghouls need to be all skeleton or no skeleton. 

The rest of the stories 1. don't revolve around Lankhmar, and 2. are hard to put together and I don't think would translate to film too well.

Basicly you could only ever hope to make 3 movies with any consistancy.  There are two "Big Stories": Duo vs. Theives Guild, and Duo Vs. Rats.  Other trappings needed to make it Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser:

Lankhmar: The city really is the setting
Ningauble
Sheelba
Gods of Lankhmar

A film that used the above elements would probably do better than a direct adaptation of the stories.  Though I would use Ill Met and Thieves as a framework for the first film.  As a general outline I think it would look best like this:

Elements of Ill Met storyline, Rat reference
Claws of night, (birds going crazy) and cloud of hate elements
Aid sought from (or given by) Wizards
Elements of Thieves story line, (but instead rats control the theives guild and more! The rats are going to take over, Oh My!)
But use major elements of the finale of Swords of Lankhmar.

That would make one very exciting movie.


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## barsoomcore (May 16, 2006)

jester47 said:
			
		

> That would make one very exciting movie.



And one very excited barsoomcore.


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## Klaus (May 17, 2006)

I don't know, I'd just use the Epic Comics miniseries by Howard Chaykin and Mike Mignola as a template for a series of Fafhrd & Gray Mouser movies.

Issue 1 - Ill Met in Lankhmar
Issue 2 - The Circle Curse/The Howling Tower
Issue 3 - The Price of Pain Ease/Bazzar of the Bizarre
Issue 4 - Lean Times in Lankhmar/When the Sea King's Away

I highly recommend this mini.


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## nikolai (May 17, 2006)

I hate to break it to you, but the F&GM film is by far the least likely of the lot. Dark Horse are just working on the treatment (the pitch of the story) and concept art. No film studio has looked at it yet, it's very very early days. So don't get your hopes up too much.

Looks like Elric will be shot in Arizona. http://news.ansible.co.uk/a222.html

Has anyone seen any *recent* low budget S&S (direct-to-video or tv, like D&D2 or Ring of the Nibelungs)? I was hopeful there'd be a lot of this post LotR, but haven't seen any. The cheesier the better.


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## Ranger REG (May 17, 2006)

nikolai said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen any *recent* low budget S&S (direct-to-video or tv, like D&D2 or Ring of the Nibelungs)? I was hopeful there'd be a lot of this post LotR, but haven't seen any. The cheesier the better.



Do soft porn count?


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## James Heard (May 17, 2006)

> Has anyone seen any *recent* low budget S&S (direct-to-video or tv, like D&D2 or Ring of the Nibelungs)? I was hopeful there'd be a lot of this post LotR, but haven't seen any. The cheesier the better.



I started watching Dark Kingdom, but I haven't watched the whole thing yet. The only thing that looked really promising in the first half hour or so was the soft porn bits, and then I realized that I'd recorded it from the scifi channel...and so I was sad


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, I don't want them to do one movie for _Dragonlance._ I want three. If that means producing one film at a time -- rather than all three films in a yearlong-span production shooting period -- so be it.




Don't forget, the Turks already filmed the trailers!  

Unfortunately, the site is down with bandwidth problems, apparently.

-Hyp.


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## qstor (May 18, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> This I don't understand. How is it that this book get to have a film adaptation and not _Dragonlance._
> 
> To Hollywood: What the HELL?!?!!!





It was a pretty popular kids book. When I worked at Barnes and Noble in 2003 around Christmas it was a pretty hot seller. There was a lot of press cause the author was only like 15(?)

Mike


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## Desdichado (May 18, 2006)

Brakkart said:
			
		

> Well my guess would be that Eragon is one movie.



My guess would be that people other than D&D geeks know what Eragon is.  I mean, really--Ranger REG; you weren't asking that seriously, were you?

To the Original Poster; don't forget that _Fire & Ice_ finally got it's DVD release within the last year too!  And heck; I'm just glad that you know the difference between Sword & Sorcery and _Lord of the Rings_.    

In other entertainment media, it looks like S&S is on the up too.  That new Hyborian Age computer game set in the Conan setting looks huge, and it was apparently a big deal at E3.


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## Desdichado (May 18, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Your doubts are unfounded.
> 
> In fact, the last four Weis & Hickman Dragonlance novels - _Dragons of Summer Flame_, _Dragons of a Fallen Sun_, _Dragons of a Lost Star_, and _Dragons of a Vanished Moon_ - all hit the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Publishers Weekly best-seller lists. The latter *debuted* at #10 on the New York Times and Publishers Weekly best-seller lists, and #8 on the Wall Street Journal list.
> 
> The originals were a pretty major phenomenon; there's a reason Wizards of the Coast still publishes them, and supports Dragonlance in D&D with a core setting book, when the other dead settings are, well, dead: and that reason is spelled "novel sales".



You haven't addressed how long they stayed on the charts though, or demographic buying habits.  There's enough D&D or former D&D nerds to get numbers like that without Dragonlance being "a household name".

And, given the association of Dragonlance with D&D and the piss poor financial performance of the D&D movie, I think Hollywood is quite justified in being skeptical of how "hot" a property Dragonlance would be.  And to be nitpicky; WotC does not support D&D _EDIT: Wow, that was a bizarre typo_ Dragonlance; it's still dead to them.  They have licensed setting co-creator Margaret Weiss' company to produce DL material, but I doubt that there's anything to that other than 1) hey, a license.  That's revenue, and 2) soft spot for Margaret Weiss.

It's actually the Planescape license that WotC seems to be the most possessive of.  I think that's the one that they think has some real value, although they haven't yet figured out how to tap it yet.


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## jester47 (May 18, 2006)

I think the D&D liscense has its own career...


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## James Heard (May 18, 2006)

It's a prestige class, with 5 ranks in "doomed to fail" as a prereq I'm afraid.


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## Hypersmurf (May 18, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> To the Original Poster; don't forget that _Fire & Ice_ finally got it's DVD release within the last year too!




I've owned Fire and Ice on DVD for some years now.

-Hyp.


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## Ciaran (May 22, 2006)

jester47 said:
			
		

> I guess my point was that the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser movie has already been made and that it was called "Conan the Barbarian."  The story does not do a very good job of depicting Conan, but it does do a great job of depicting Leiber's characters.  Looking at the characters and plot I would believe it if they took a mediocre Fafhrd and Grey Mouser script and got rights to the Conan properties and then changed the names of the characters.



?!??

I can only think that either you haven't actually read Leiber, or you dislike his work so much that you can't see it clearly.  Cuz, y'know, the main characters in _Rush Hour_ and _Shanghai Noon_ both have more in common with Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser than the characters in _Conan the Barbarian_.


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## nikolai (May 28, 2006)

Sonja's IMDB page is up (though all the details are hidden behind IMDbPro subscription).

http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0800175/


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## Ranger REG (May 29, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> And, given the association of Dragonlance with D&D and the piss poor financial performance of the D&D movie, I think Hollywood is quite justified in being skeptical of how "hot" a property Dragonlance would be.



Well, that majorly sucks, that in order to make such a movie made, we have to rely in the one unholy place that misrepresent and mistreat our favorite genre simply because fantasy won't win them the prestige of the Oscar.

No wonder a Kiwi outside of Hollywood can do _LOTR_ better.



			
				J-Dawg said:
			
		

> And to be nitpicky; WotC does not support D&D _EDIT: Wow, that was a bizarre typo_ Dragonlance; it's still dead to them.  They have licensed setting co-creator Margaret Weiss' company to produce DL material, but I doubt that there's anything to that other than 1) hey, a license.  That's revenue, and 2) soft spot for Margaret Weiss.



Gee, you make it sound like granting the RPG license to Margaret Weis is a big business mistake, and that WotC, no matter how small the employee roster at R&D is now, should be the one to maintain the line -- including editing it -- to show somebody like you their gesture of support.

 :\


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## Urizen (May 29, 2006)

I for one would love to see a Dragonlance movie, though I do worry about them mangling the characters. 

I seem to recall a petition running around the net some place calling for a movie (or multiple movies) based on the series.

I think if anyone could direct that series, it would be PJ and WETA.

Given his work on LOTR, I believe he would do a really good job with it.


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## Klaus (May 29, 2006)

Yeah, but LotR is precisely the reason PJ wouldn't do *another* fantasy trilogy.

After reading the two Eberron novels by Keith Baker, Id really like to see an Eberron trilogy (and the first novel, City of Towers, is self-contained enough to serve as a testing of the waters). Just slap Nathan Fillion, Dina Meyer, Michael Rosenbaum and Michael Dorn onto the roles of Daine, Lei, Jode and Pierce and you're set to go!


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## Urizen (May 29, 2006)

Yeah, you're probably right.

If he does do another fantasy movie, perhaps it would be the Hobbit. That would be pretty neat to see come to life.


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## Ranger REG (May 29, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Yeah, but LotR is precisely the reason PJ wouldn't do *another* fantasy trilogy.



Oh, I think he would do another. He just won't attempt another 18-month shooting schedule, making all three films at once.


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## Sandain (May 30, 2006)

I can't understand why they tore down Hobbiton when the Hobbit movie was screaming to be made.  It would be an instant block buster and make hundreds of millions of gp... er dollars.


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## Pants (May 30, 2006)

Sandain said:
			
		

> I can't understand why they tore down Hobbiton when the Hobbit movie was screaming to be made.  It would be an instant block buster and make hundreds of millions of gp... er dollars.



Because Jackson wanted to do Kong afterward.


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## Ranger REG (May 30, 2006)

Sandain said:
			
		

> I can't understand why they tore down Hobbiton when the Hobbit movie was screaming to be made.  It would be an instant block buster and make hundreds of millions of gp... er dollars.



It was built on private land. The landowner would not know what to do with it. Even if he wants to charge tourist fee, he might get sued by Tolkien Enterprise and/or Tolkien Estate. Then again, he wouldn't want tourists flocking onto his property.


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## Klaus (May 30, 2006)

Plus the fact that it was already built once means lots of the logistics were already solved, and there are blueprints of everything. I guess they could re-build Hobitton in half the time and at half the price.


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## horacethegrey (May 30, 2006)

I'd love for the _The Hobbit_ to be a made into a movie. And of course I'd love Peter Jackson to return and helm it, as well as other key cast members, such as Ian Mckellen, Hugo Weaving, and Andy Serkis. As for a younger Bilbo, I'd suggest a younger actor and not Ian Holm as many fans are hoping. My vote goes for Martin Freeman (_The Office, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_).


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## Klaus (May 30, 2006)

And then PJ pulls a "Lucas" and re-release FotR with the new actor in place of Bilbo?



j/k, I'd like a new actor to play Bilbo, and John Rhys-Davies to play that dwarf that is, iirc, Gimli's relative.


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## horacethegrey (May 30, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> And then PJ pulls a "Lucas" and re-release FotR with the new actor in place of Bilbo?
> 
> 
> 
> j/k, I'd like a new actor to play Bilbo, and John Rhys-Davies to play that dwarf that is, iirc, Gimli's relative.




You mean Gloin(his father BTW to those not in the know)? Unlikely, since Rhys Davies has repeatedly stated that refuses ever again to play a dwarf, given the difficulties he had with the prosthetics during filming the trilogy. 

BTW, the Lucas reference had me thinking of a gag I once told my friends. Instead of _The Hobbit_, the full title would be _THE LORD OF THE RINGS Episode 1: THE hOBBIT_.


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## Urizen (May 30, 2006)

Yeah.. what horacethegrey said about Rhys Davies.

He really hated that make-up. He needed a few days to recover after each make-up session, and felt so self-concious that he wouldn't hang out with other cast members off-set.


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## Joshua Randall (May 30, 2006)

Wait, you mean Rhys-Davies doesn't actually look like Gimli? I feel so disillusioned.

But back on topic, the proposed movie that baffles me the most is Elric. How do you make such a nihilistic, sweeping epic into a crowd-pleasing Hollywood blockbuster?

_Edit_: not to mention, the main character has a pact with a *demon*, ferchrissake.


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## jester47 (May 30, 2006)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> ?!??
> 
> I can only think that either you haven't actually read Leiber, or you dislike his work so much that you can't see it clearly.  Cuz, y'know, the main characters in _Rush Hour_ and _Shanghai Noon_ both have more in common with Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser than the characters in _Conan the Barbarian_.




I disagree.  After reading the original howard stories as printed by DEL REY, and then reading the First two books "Ill Met in Lankhmar" and "Lean Times in Lankhmar" the film Conan the Barbarian has more in common with Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser than REH's Conan.  Largely the film is a seriously misadapted creature, in that it really does not do a good job of portraying REHs Conan, almost to the point where Conan, Valeria, and Thulsa Doom are basicly just names added on to make claim to the conan property.  So it may be this dissassociation with the conan name that makes me see the similarities between Conan and Fafhrd.  One thing is- Conan was never really portrayed as being careless from success.  Fafhrd was.  Conan was not really "nordic" in origin, Fafhrd was.  

So I guess my point is this.  The Conan from the movie has more in common with Fadhrd than the Conan from the stories.  Subotai's connections to the character of Mouser are limited at best: He is shorter and wiser to the world.  But I find the character of Conan to be more of a Ghengis-Fafhrd than a Conan.


----------



## horacethegrey (May 30, 2006)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> But back on topic, the proposed movie that baffles me the most is Elric. How do you make such a nihilistic, sweeping epic into a crowd-pleasing Hollywood blockbuster?




Simple, you don't. The story itself is meant to be this tragedy laden epic, so why change it something that will please the crowds when it's not designed to be as such? I've not read the books myself, but I'll be in line to watch this if some director has the balls to put it to film.

Besides, Peter Jackson himself said in an interview once that fantasy is the most undeveloped genre in film. So what better way to show that it can tackle different themes and such than by making a film that is the antithesis of _The Lord of the Rings_?


----------



## reanjr (May 30, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I bought the DVD to Curse of the Ring/Ring of the Nibelungs, a made-for-TV production that aired on Sci-Fi recently, and it is head-and-shoulders better than both D&D movies, for instance. Not LotR material, but it is as good as Dragonslayer, and would've merited a theatrical release.




Thank you, I have been wondering if that movie was worth the 40 USD import price.  I'll probably get it now.


----------



## reanjr (May 30, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> My guess would be that people other than D&D geeks know what Eragon is.  I mean, really--Ranger REG; you weren't asking that seriously, were you?




In case you are not aware, the Dragonlance Chronicles is a gateway drug to Tolkien and D&D.  I am pretty sure that more people read dragonlance than play D&D.  It's hardly a niche in the fantasy genre.  Numerous New York Times bestsellers, critics saying its the best fantasy since LotR, etc.

Don't get turned off by the D&D affiliation, Dragonlance was a superbly designed and written series.


----------



## Umbran (May 30, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> As for a younger Bilbo, I'd suggest a younger actor and not Ian Holm as many fans are hoping. My vote goes for Martin Freeman (_The Office, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_).




Having just watched some digital magic done on Ian McKellan in X3, I'm not convinced you need a younger actor.  Sure, as a practical matter, it'd certainly be cheaper, but there's in intri9guing possibility of dunking Holm into a digital fountain of youth for the film. 



			
				jester47 said:
			
		

> the film Conan the Barbarian has more in common with Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser than REH's Conan.




Your points seem to be that the movie-character of Conan is more akin to Fafhrd than the original book Conan.  And that may be.  But that's a long way from saying that the Conan-movie has much similarity with the Lankmar stories in theme or structure.  A northern barbarian does not a major similarity make.


----------



## Storm Raven (May 30, 2006)

reanjr said:
			
		

> In case you are not aware, the Dragonlance Chronicles is a gateway drug to Tolkien and D&D.  I am pretty sure that more people read dragonlance than play D&D.  It's hardly a niche in the fantasy genre.  Numerous New York Times bestsellers, critics saying its the best fantasy since LotR, etc.




That's because most critics haven't read any fantasy other than LotR and Dragonlance. I can think of a dozen fantasy works that are better than Dragonlance off the top of my head.



> _Don't get turned off by the D&D affiliation, Dragonlance was a superbly designed and written series._




Replace "superbly" with "competently" and you are about right.


----------



## horacethegrey (May 30, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Having just watched some digital magic done on Ian McKellan in X3, I'm not convinced you need a younger actor.  Sure, as a practical matter, it'd certainly be cheaper, but there's in intri9guing possibility of dunking Holm into a digital fountain of youth for the film.




Ugh. I hated that deaging thing they did on Stewart and Mckellen, made 'em look a bit too plastic for my taste. I don't think I could stand to see Ian Holm like that for an entire film.

Besides, I highly doubt PJ himself would go that route if he decided to make the movie. From what I've watched in the LOTR Extended Editions, he's the type of director who'd rather rely on practical effects rather than digital effects if it came down to it.


----------



## jester47 (May 30, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Your points seem to be that the movie-character of Conan is more akin to Fafhrd than the original book Conan.  And that may be.  But that's a long way from saying that the Conan-movie has much similarity with the Lankmar stories in theme or structure.  A northern barbarian does not a major similarity make.




You have the right of it.

A.


----------



## nikolai (May 30, 2006)

> But back on topic, the proposed movie that baffles me the most is Elric. How do you make such a nihilistic, sweeping epic into a crowd-pleasing Hollywood blockbuster?




I thought an interesting comment was this:



> "We have loved this series since we were kids and can appreciate it even more as adults. It's a sophisticated, literate, philosophically dense fantasy -- a sort of 'Matrix' of the sword-and-sorcery genre," Chris Weitz [one of the producers] said.




http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/24/film.elric.reut/

Aside from the chance to do another LOTR and the IP that they're buying, I think the chance to do another 'philosophical' picture aimed at an older age group, like the Matrix but with Runeblades, was what grabbed them.


----------



## barsoomcore (May 31, 2006)

Chris Weitz said:
			
		

> a sort of 'Matrix' of the sword-and-sorcery genre



This is the 413th stupidest statement ever uttered by a human being. Please, Lord, spare me more marketing-speak from movie producers.


----------



## Ranger REG (May 31, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> And then PJ pulls a "Lucas" and re-release FotR with the new actor in place of Bilbo?
> 
> 
> 
> j/k, I'd like a new actor to play Bilbo, and John Rhys-Davies to play that dwarf that is, iirc, Gimli's relative.



But both actors (Ian Holms and John) aren't getting any younger. Most importantly, I don't think John wants to sign onboard if he has to wear those itchy makeups ever again.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 31, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> And then PJ pulls a "Lucas" ...




And what, put's ton-tons in the backs of shots?


----------



## Ranger REG (May 31, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> And what, put's ton-tons in the backs of shots?



Nope, that would clutter up the scene. Just a couple of two-tons.

Yeah, I know you meant "tauntaun."


----------



## Joshua Randall (May 31, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> This [the 'Matrix' for Sword & Sorcery is the 413th stupidest statement ever uttered by a human being. Please, Lord, spare me more marketing-speak from movie producers.



Agreed.

I was about to make a derogatory comment about the Matrix's peurile so-called philosophizing in comparison to Elric.

Then I remembered that the Elric stories have just as much puerile so-called philosophizing. Yeah, it seemed deep and important when I was 16, but so did a lot of other crap.

So now I've decided that I would far rather see an Elric movie that dispenses with the philosophizing and just features lots of killing and a kewl uber sword.


----------



## mattcolville (May 31, 2006)

nikolai said:
			
		

> I thought an interesting comment was this:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/24/film.elric.reut/




I love that they call the Eternal Champion series a "Tolkienesque" property. Michael Moorcock must love that.


----------



## frankthedm (May 31, 2006)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> I was about to make a derogatory comment about the Matrix's peurile so-called philosophizing in comparison to Elric.
> 
> ...



 I almost like the comparison. The love story between the Warchouski siblings' 'author characters' is a big chunk of why i disliked the matrix series. To know going in a Trinity-esqe character is going to perish in the worst way in all of existence brings me great joy. I could even forgive the opening scene having the throne room magically lit in a rave-like manner to try and entertain Elric as long as they do not gloss over his depencence on the drugs. I like the series in writing and concept, but don’t forget Mr. Moorcock wrote Elric as almost a_ parody_ of Conan and other fantasy fiction.

Manly man? Hell No! Elric is an effeminate looking Bishonen prettyboy.

Strong? No way! He can’t get out of bed without ‘roids.

A mighty sword at his side? A mighty Evil sword is more like it.

Does he gets the girls? He gets the girls 



Spoiler



killed


.<<<

Edit
http://www.amanosworld.com/html/work/moorcock.html
Yes, that artist is canon.


> Amano has illustrated most of the major fantasy stories by Michael Moorcock which are published in Japan - setting the standard for fantasy illustrations. Mr. Moorcock liked Amano's illustrations so much, he changed the original covers of the English translations to Amano's work.




I think it would actually be a good idea to try to appeal to the female Tokyopop crowd with art and promotions using amano's work.


----------



## Klaus (May 31, 2006)

Elric, the S&S Trainspotting!


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jun 1, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> And to be nitpicky; WotC does not support D&D _EDIT: Wow, that was a bizarre typo_ Dragonlance; it's still dead to them.  They have licensed setting co-creator Margaret Weiss' company to produce DL material, but I doubt that there's anything to that other than 1) hey, a license.  That's revenue, and 2) soft spot for Margaret Weiss.



http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000

Published by Wizards of the Coast, just like _Oriental Adventures_ was intended as the "core setting book" for d20 _Legend of the Five Rings_.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 1, 2006)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> So now I've decided that I would far rather see an Elric movie that dispenses with the philosophizing and just features lots of killing and a kewl uber sword.



See, NOW you're talking!

Why don't movie producer/marketing flacks ever speak THAT language? Wouldn't you just DIE if the director came out and said, "Look, it's not complicated. It's some pale pretty uber-Goth with red eyes who moans about his fate while killing everything he cares about with the most wikked kewl sword you ever saw. There's hot chicks in baroque armour, torture, dragons, world-shattering sorcery and some of the most hardcore swordfights you're ever going to see. It's rated R cause there's blood and sex all over it, and it totally ROCKS. Go and see it."

Can I write marketing fluff or can I?


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 1, 2006)

Wasn't there talk of a movie based on Karl Edward Wagner's Kane stories? I seem to recall hearing that it was going to be approached like a horror film, rather than a straight fantasy flick.

As for Elric, the whole saga would be a massive undertaking. But looking at the CNN article, there's a pretty succinctly stated plot arc:

"The novels follow Elric on a series of adventures, in which he is betrayed by his cousin, sent into exile and attempts to come to terms with his own humanity."

An Elric film could easily be a revenge tale, ending with the destruction of Immryr. Sure, it'd be pretty simplified, but I think it would be a good, reasonably palatable to Hollywood, film.


----------



## frankthedm (Jun 1, 2006)

Jyrdan Fairblade said:
			
		

> I seem to recall hearing that it was going to be approached like a horror film, rather than a straight fantasy flick.



Thats actually a good idea, while the Elric series reads like a fantasy story and would be called such by most of us, one of the literary genre’s conventions for fantasy is that the protagonist wins in the end. As such someone making a movie pitch would be in there rights to use horror, rather than fantasy to classify the tale’s genre.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 1, 2006)

Jyrdan Fairblade said:
			
		

> An Elric film could easily be a revenge tale, ending with the destruction of Immryr.



That's exactly how I'd do it. Elric leaves kingdom to Yrkoon, acquires _Stormbringer_ (with Yrkoon getting _Mournblade_ at the same time), discovers Cymoril's death, big fight, everyone dies, Elric slouches off into the wasteland.

Something like that, anyway.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jun 1, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> See, NOW you're talking!
> 
> [stuff]
> 
> Can I write marketing fluff or can I?



Why yes, yes you can. And I would definitely see that movie.

But I fear the movie we will get will take itself waaaaaaaaay too seriously. That it will try to capture the New Age philosophizing of Moorcock, or make some sort of after school special point about loneliness and humanity, or something like that.

The only things the Elric movie needs to succeed are:
(1) an albino (paging Paul Bettany?)
(2) a big-ass black runesword

Everything else is fluff, and too much fluff will distract from the movie's focus.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jun 1, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Elric leaves kingdom to Yrkoon, acquires _Stormbringer_ (with Yrkoon getting _Mournblade_ at the same time), discovers Cymoril's death, big fight, everyone dies, Elric slouches off into the wasteland.



Alternatively, Elric has already acquired Stormbringer (or does so in the first 15 minutes of the movie), and then we use the plot from the book "Stormbringer". It's much more a straight epic fantasy plot than the other stories, which are more moody and episodic. Plus, "Stormbringer" has the cool apocolyptic ending.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 2, 2006)

I just want to see Elric standing on a mound of hundreds of dead bodies.


----------



## James Heard (Jun 2, 2006)

Somehow I think Vin Diesel is a shoo-in for Elric, because John Travolta and Nick Cage are too old. If they make Samuel L Jackson Elric though, I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Klaus (Jun 2, 2006)

"Elric: Runeswords in the M*********ing Plane".


Hmm... I can see it.


----------



## James Heard (Jun 2, 2006)

"What?"
"Forsooth, say 'What' again!  C'mon, say 'What' again!  I dare ya, I double dare ya !@#$%, say 'What' one more !@#$% time!"
       Runes of Elric's mighty evil blade pulse. Cue Rave music.

Later on:

"Now THAT is some tasty soul."
"You know what they call souls in Tanelorn?"


----------



## horacethegrey (Jun 2, 2006)

Anyone here think that _Elric _ would be perfect as an anime? It's tragic themes and apocalyptic leanings are just the sort of stuff the Japanese eat up. Plus, as someone mentioned, Moorcock loves Yoshitaka Amano's illustrations of Elric, so at least we already have a character designer at hand.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 2, 2006)

James Heard said:
			
		

> "You know what they call souls in Tanelorn?"



You are a very bad man.


----------



## nikolai (Jun 16, 2006)

Hi all;

I'm resurecting the thread for some good news about Conan. The latest is that Boaz Yakin has been hired by Warner as a writer and possible director. Word is he's aiming to be faithful to Robert E. Howard's short stories. Production is looking to start in 2007, for a 2008 release. There have been a lot of stalled attempts over the years, here's hoping this one will make it.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=23599


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 16, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Anyone here think that _Elric _ would be perfect as an anime? It's tragic themes and apocalyptic leanings are just the sort of stuff the Japanese eat up. Plus, as someone mentioned, Moorcock loves Yoshitaka Amano's illustrations of Elric, so at least we already have a character designer at hand.



*shrugs*

If you say so, as long as _Dragonlance_ does not get the anime treatment.

(Sorry, not so much a fan of _Elric._)


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 16, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> If you say so, as long as _Dragonlance_ does not get the anime treatment.




Could be worse; it could get the _Turkish_ treatment...

-Hyp.


----------



## James Heard (Jun 16, 2006)

Does that mean it gets a bath and massage?


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jun 16, 2006)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Does that mean it gets a bath and massage?




A bunch of Turkish fans decided "Well, we can't make a Dragonlance movie... but we can make a _trailer_ for a Dragonlance movie!"

Oh, the horror.

-Hyp.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 17, 2006)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Somehow I think Vin Diesel is a shoo-in for Elric, because John Travolta and Nick Cage are too old. If they make Samuel L Jackson Elric though, I wouldn't be surprised.



I envision Jonathan Rhys Meyers. I saw him in the BBC's _Gormenghast_ as Steerpike.  The attitude, the thin physique.  If anyone could pull off Elric, it's him.


----------



## James Heard (Jun 17, 2006)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I envision Jonathan Rhys Meyers. I saw him in the BBC's _Gormenghast_ as Steerpike.  The attitude, the thin physique.  If anyone could pull off Elric, it's him.



Maybe, but that would probably be a signal that everyone else in the movie was a B list too because he hasn't really done anything "Hollywood noteworthy" as a leading man.

I guess what I'm saying is that he's pretty obscure for a movie unless you're expecting IT to be obscure. Put Vin in though, and you're saying "This movie has the full backing of the studio, because it's Vin Diesel killing people." You'd need other people in/on the movie to pull in the investment to make the movie, like a big name director, to manage to sooth the uncertainty of a Jonathan Rhys Meyers Elric.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 17, 2006)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I envision Jonathan Rhys Meyers. I saw him in the BBC's _Gormenghast_ as Steerpike.  The attitude, the thin physique.  If anyone could pull off Elric, it's him.



Isn't that the same guy who was in _Bend it Like Beckham,_ and played Elvis in a TV mini-series?


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 17, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Isn't that the same guy who was in _Bend it Like Beckham,_ and played Elvis in a TV mini-series?



Yup, he was also one of Tom Cruise's MI team members in MI-3.


----------



## Orius (Jun 18, 2006)

Brakkart said:
			
		

> Heres another fantasy movie, this one is out in October I believe. No trailer as yet, but the background legend makes for interesting reading:
> 
> http://www.eragonmovie.com/




Silly me, at first I thought that was a movie adaptation of _The Eye of Argon_.


----------



## Wolf Knight (Jun 18, 2006)

> Silly me, at first I thought that was a movie adaptation of The Eye of Argon.




I think I'd rather that. :\


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 19, 2006)

Rhys-Meyer is a pretty good suggestion, even though he's filled out a lot since his _Gormenghast_ days. Thirty years ago David Bowie was a shoo-in for the part, but we seem to have gone away from the Thin White Duke's aesthetic of male beauty.

There certainly don't seem to be any A-List stars who remotely fit the physical description of Elric. Even most male models (usually the prettiest and scrawniest of men) seem too bulky and "masculine" for the role. I wonder if you could cast a woman in the role? Keira Knightly is completely flat-chested. As is Famke Janssen. Neither of them are particularly "womanly" -- they're certainly far more androgynous than any male actors I can think of. Would an audience accept them in the part?


----------



## CrusaderX (Jun 19, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> There certainly don't seem to be any A-List stars who remotely fit the physical description of Elric.




The same could have been said for Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippen.   

With the right makeup, clothing, lighting, and even special effects where necessary, I don't really see a live action Elric as much of a problem.  Thems Hollywood folks can really work wonders.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 19, 2006)

Okay, we disagree. Making somebody look three feet tall seems less of a challenge to me than making Vin Diesel a pretty, slanted-eyed, 96-pound weakling.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jun 19, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> There certainly don't seem to be any A-List stars who remotely fit the physical description of Elric. Even most male models (usually the prettiest and scrawniest of men) seem too bulky and "masculine" for the role.




Well, they have to be to look nice; Elric is not going to look nice. Some actors will starve themselves for a part and that's probably what's going to happen here. Look at Christian Bale in _The Machinist_. If IMDB is to be beleived, he went from 180 to 120 and wanted to go further but they wouldn't let him. He looks like death on toast in that movie, and not too dissimilar to what Elric's body probably would look like.


----------



## CrusaderX (Jun 19, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Okay, we disagree. Making somebody look three feet tall seems less of a challenge to me than making Vin Diesel a pretty, slanted-eyed, 96-pound weakling.




But casting Vin Diesel as Elric is more akin to casting Andre the Giant as Frodo.      Just because Vin wouldn't work doesn't mean that _nobody_ would work.

Remember, before they were actually seen on film, few fans were able to wrap their heads around how an accurate portrayal of hobbits would look onscreen (without actually using little people, ala Willow).  But once we saw the end results, Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, and the rest were perfect in their roles, thanks to moviemaking magic.  

Cast the right actor as Elric (which, admittedly, is easier said than done, but far from impossible), and use appropriate moviemaking magic, and the potential for an accurate portrayal of a hard to envision character is certainly possible.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 20, 2006)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Yup, he was also one of Tom Cruise's MI team members in MI-3.



Well, that's a bad career move. But I guess I can forgive him for that.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 21, 2006)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Look at Christian Bale in _The Machinist_.



Christian Bale -- there's a reasonable suggestion. And he can act. And yeah, he was hella thin in that picture.


----------



## Klaus (Jun 21, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Christian Bale -- there's a reasonable suggestion. And he can act. And yeah, he was hella thin in that picture.



 Of course, he said he'd *never* do that kind of stunt again, specially since he went from Machinist's 120 pounds to Batman Begins' 200 pounds and almost had a heart attack crossing a hotel lobby. He had to actually bilk down a bit to get to the phisique in BB.

How's about Johhny Lee Miller (Angelina's ex)? Or even Matt Damon? He was astoundingly thin in Courage Under Fire (y'know, the one where Meg Ryan is a military officer >snicker<). The lady who played Gabriel in Constantine, otoh, could be a shoo-in. And then there's Mr. Freaky Eyebrows, aka, Ian Somerhalder (who'll play Marco Polo in an upcoming miniseries, where Kublai Khan will be played by... wait for it... Brian Dennehy!!!). And of course, if he chooses to actually *act* like he did in his earlier movies, there's Leonardo Di Caprio (The Beach notwithstanding).

As for Famke Janssen being androginous, I *dare* you to watch GoldenEye and tell me that with a straight face!


----------



## barsoomcore (Jun 21, 2006)

Hey, I LOVE Famke. And I've been following her ever since Xenia Onatopp, best believe. But she does have a big square jaw, AND she's completely flat-chested, so I think yeah, she could play a fey scrawny pretty-boy manling.

But YES, Tilda Swinton (Gabriel, also played the White Witch in _Narnia_) might be perfect. She actually played a man (sort of) in _Orlando_. Though she's getting a little old.

What about Viggo? He's pretty rangy. Not very pretty, though. But he was really creepy in _The Prophecy_ as Lucifer.


----------



## Klaus (Jun 21, 2006)

Nah, Viggo has a strong jaw and a more manly way about him, reminiscent of prettier-in-a-manly-way Josh Holloway (Sawyer in Lost).

And I never doubt your keen eye for the ladies, mate!


----------



## frankthedm (Jun 22, 2006)

Hollywood males deserve to starve for a few roles. It is only fair...

All I want, regardless of actor, is that they get about as close as the recent Time Machine got with the Uber Morlock.


----------



## horacethegrey (Jun 22, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Hollywood males deserve to starve for a few roles. It is only fair...
> 
> All I want, regardless of actor, is that they get about as close as the recent Time Machine got with the Uber Morlock.




That's Jeremy Irons BTW, for those not in the know.

But back on topic. For Elric, hmm... Why not Paul Bettany? I mean, he's already played an albino.  Seriously though, he's the favorite of many at the forums on Moorcock's website.


----------



## James Heard (Jun 22, 2006)

Bettany's not a bad idea, and he's already had some leading man stuff. I guess it depends on if he could do angry and tortured I guess, and swordplay? I admit, most of what I remember of him from anywhere is from Wimbledon. On the other hand, asking a dude to play an albino twice might be killing his career entirely.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 22, 2006)

James Heard said:
			
		

> I admit, most of what I remember of him from anywhere is from Wimbledon. On the other hand, asking a dude to play an albino twice might be killing his career entirely.



Unless the script is too good to pass up.

BTW, he's also in _The Knight's Tale_ (bard/herald/announcer) and _Master and Commander_ (He's ship physician Maturin to Russell Crowe's captain Aubrey). He played opposite Harrison Ford in _Firewall._

As a footnote: he's married to Jennifer Conelly (_Labyrinth, Rocketeer, House of Sand and Fog_).


----------



## Klaus (Jun 22, 2006)

Jennifer Connelly is *never* a footnote! That's the highlight of his career!



I quite liked Bettany in Knight's Tale (yeah, I like that movie).


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 23, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Jennifer Connelly is *never* a footnote! That's the highlight of his career!



Wouldn't mind seeing her as Alhana Starbreeze.


----------



## Klaus (Jun 23, 2006)

Indeed!


----------



## damnable_richard (Jul 2, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Hey, I LOVE Famke. And I've been following her ever since Xenia Onatopp, best believe. But she does have a big square jaw, AND she's completely flat-chested, so I think yeah, she could play a fey scrawny pretty-boy manling.
> 
> But YES, Tilda Swinton (Gabriel, also played the White Witch in _Narnia_) might be perfect. She actually played a man (sort of) in _Orlando_. Though she's getting a little old.
> 
> What about Viggo? He's pretty rangy. Not very pretty, though. But he was really creepy in _The Prophecy_ as Lucifer.





the idea of a woman playing Elric is intriguing.  i suppose the FX team could toggle the voice through some effects...


----------



## horacethegrey (Jul 2, 2006)

Would you guys count Chinese wuxia films as sword and sorcery? If so, check out some previews of Zhang Ziyi's newest movie, _The Banquet_ (Ye Yan).







IMDB entry here.

Trailers and previews here and here.

Official site.


----------



## damnable_richard (Jul 3, 2006)

hell yeah!  : )
she's very easy on the eyes too  : D


----------



## WayneLigon (Jul 3, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Would you guys count Chinese wuxia films as sword and sorcery? If so, check out some previews of Zhang Ziyi's newest movie, _The Banquet_ (Ye Yan).




Not really, no. Many are fine, fine fantasy movies but not Sword and Sorcery movies. There is a pretty specific look and feel to S&S.


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## Ranger REG (Jul 3, 2006)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> There is a pretty specific look and feel to S&S.



Like a half-naked (at least) priestess, an uncouthed warrior, a horny wizard, and a stuck-up princess?


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 4, 2006)

nikolai said:
			
		

> We were talking about this before the boards crashed, when the thread was lost. Things may be looking quite bright for a S&S cinema revival. The only real S&S films this decade have been 'The Scorpion King' and 'Dungeons & Dragons' (and possibly Bloodrayne too). But things are looking up. From what I can remember, here's a brief status report:
> 
> * *Bran Mak Morn* - a film staring REH's other Barbarian is currently in production by Working Title.
> * *Red Sonja* - her second outing has just been announced by Millennium Films and Emmett/Furla Films.
> ...




Don't forget,  *Forgotten Realms*

And Steven Spielberg has shown interest in doing *World of Warcraft*


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 4, 2006)

And this just in   

http://www.moviehole.net/news/20060704_are_these_the_heman_contenders.html


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 7, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Wouldn't mind seeing her as Alhana Starbreeze.



She's too old.

I mean, given that Dragonlance elves are fairly unaging, and she's not one of those people whose age doesn't show. Still beautiful, but it's an older beauty now.


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## Storn (Jul 7, 2006)

I think there is  a quiet underswell of sword and sorcery revival going on.  It is something that I'm a part of.  I work for both Swordandsorcery.com and Black Gate as an illustrator.  And I'm illustrating sword and sorcery short stories.  I'm seeing some real passion for the milieu.

But even more involving is the Catspaw webcomic, written by John C. Hocking (who wrote Conan and the Emerald Lotus, one of the best Conan pastiches I've ever read).  And hosted by SwordandSorcery.com.

It ain't a movie.  But it is a trend.  Check it out.

Dear sword and sorcery readers....

Page 8 of Catspaw is up for your viewing pleasure!  

It went up on time, I've just been on the road traveling, so getting the reminders up on various forums sat until today.

http://www.swordandsorcery.org/


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## Ranger REG (Jul 7, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> She's too old.
> 
> I mean, given that Dragonlance elves are fairly unaging, and she's not one of those people whose age doesn't show. Still beautiful, but it's an older beauty now.



Oh, and Dakota Fanning is right for female elf portrayal?   

Surely, you're not suggesting we pick them from the cast of _One Tree Hill_ or _The O.C._, are you?


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## James Heard (Jul 7, 2006)

Now starring, Jamie Lynn Spears in...


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## Klaus (Jul 7, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> She's too old.
> 
> I mean, given that Dragonlance elves are fairly unaging, and she's not one of those people whose age doesn't show. Still beautiful, but it's an older beauty now.



 You mean like Galadriel is an ageless beauty? Yeah, glad Cate Blanchett didn't get that part.

Oh, wait...


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## barsoomcore (Jul 8, 2006)

Jennifer Connelly gets to be in any movie Jennifer Connelly wants to be in.

That's my rule, and I'm sticking to it.


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## Klaus (Jul 8, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Jennifer Connelly gets to be in any movie Jennifer Connelly wants to be in.
> 
> That's my rule, and I'm sticking to it.



 I find your ideas intriguing, and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.


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## horacethegrey (Jul 8, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Surely, you're not suggesting we pick them from the cast of _One Tree Hill_ or _The O.C._, are you?




 Gag! If any stinking teen idol from the WB gets cast in a fantasy movie, I'm gouging my eyes out! (except Kristin Kreuk, I fancy her, even in that crappy Earthsea movie  )



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Jennifer Connelly gets to be in any movie Jennifer Connelly wants to be in.
> 
> That's my rule, and I'm sticking to it.






			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> I find your ideas intriguing, and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.




Allow me to second that. Connelly was gorgeous in _Labyrinth_, and she's even more beautiful now .


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## Ranger REG (Jul 8, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Gag! If any stinking teen idol from the WB gets cast in a fantasy movie, I'm gouging my eyes out!



Really? Now I definitely want to cast Sophia Bush just to see some gouging.


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## horacethegrey (Jul 8, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Really? Now I definitely want to cast Sophia Bush just to see some gouging.




You are an evil man.  

Still, afterwards I could offer my eyes to the well of Mimir in order to gain wisdom on how to avoid Ragnarok.


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 8, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Kristin Kreuk, I fancy her,




Hey, hey, hey get in line!   

Needless to say it shows you have very good taste


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## Ranger REG (Jul 8, 2006)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> You are an evil man.



Don't forget "cruel" and "sadistic."


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## Klaus (Jul 9, 2006)

librarius_arcana said:
			
		

> Hey, hey, hey get in line!
> 
> Needless to say it shows you have very good taste



 You all step away from my Mialee.

Matt Damon: "Regdar doesn't know! Regdar doesn't know! Regdar doesn't know!..."


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## Ranger REG (Jul 9, 2006)

_Muh-muh my Mialee
Muh-muh my Mialee..._


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 10, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> You mean like Galadriel is an ageless beauty? Yeah, glad Cate Blanchett didn't get that part.
> 
> Oh, wait...



You say that like I think _The Lord of the Rings_ was even any good, much less like I think Cate Blanchett was well-cast as Galadriel.

As it happens, though, Blanchett's age shows less than Connelly's does.


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## horacethegrey (Jul 10, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> You say that like I think _The Lord of the Rings_ was even any good, much less like I think Cate Blanchett was well-cast as Galadriel.




Well you keep thinking that mate, while let the rest of us think that the LOTR trilogy was the best thing in cinema since the original _Star Wars_, *regardless * of lack of fidelity to the books.

Some people, no pleasing them. :\


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## CapnZapp (Nov 8, 2022)

nikolai said:


> We were talking about this before the boards crashed, when the thread was lost. Things may be looking quite bright for a S&S cinema revival.
> 
> I'd be interesting in hearing everyone's thoughts.



Writing approx 16 years later I envy the optimism of 2006. I would love more classic Sword & Sorcery movies.


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## Aeson (Nov 8, 2022)

This was on TV today. Is it classic enough for ya?


Watch to the end for a badass dragon.


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## Yora (Nov 8, 2022)

There were for several years persistent murmurings about the stars being right for a Sword & Sorcery literature revival. Seems to have died down again with nothing to show for.
(A good number of stories were published, but the ones I read seemed bland and unimaginative.)


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## ART! (Nov 8, 2022)

I haven't seen it, but _The Northman_ is a fairly high-profile, generally well-reviewed movie that seems S&S-ish.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 9, 2022)

_Spine of Night _was lower-profile but pretty good animation and pretty dark.

_Onward_ is more of a kids' buddy movie, but I think technically fits.

People didn't like the 2011 _Conan the Barbarian_ reboot with Jason Momoa, but I did.

Here's a Wikipedia list if anyone wants to comment:






						List of sword and sorcery films - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> People didn't like the 2011 _Conan the Barbarian_ reboot with Jason Momoa, but I did.



I generally liked Momoa in the role, and the first half or 2/3 of the movie felt pretty Conan-y, but then it got too dumb/silly for me. Generally I recommend it, though.


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## Dioltach (Nov 9, 2022)

We also have The Witcher on television, which goes a long way to making up for the lack. Game of Thrones too, I suppose.


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2022)

Dioltach said:


> We also have The Witcher on television, which goes a long way to making up for the lack. Game of Thrones too, I suppose.



I can't comment on _The Witcher_, but I don't think _GoT_ is S&S.


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## Yora (Nov 9, 2022)

ART! said:


> I haven't seen it, but _The Northman_ is a fairly high-profile, generally well-reviewed movie that seems S&S-ish.



Really? Isn't it just a period piece where some characters occasionally have weird visions?


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## RuinousPowers (Nov 9, 2022)

It's sad that not a single one of the classic S&S movies mentioned in the OP came to pass.


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2022)

Yora said:


> Really? Isn't it just a period piece where some characters occasionally have weird visions?



When I Google for "is The Northman sword & sorcery", a lot of the results refer to it as such, so...? Definitions of S&S vary, and some people use it to refer to any gritty, swords-y stuff that has a fantasy element to it. Again, I haven't seen it myself.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 9, 2022)

ART! said:


> I haven't seen it, but _The Northman_ is a fairly high-profile, generally well-reviewed movie that seems S&S-ish.



I can understand how someone reading a plot summary could arrive to that conclusion. However, I would say it is very far from what I think of when somebody says "Sword & Sorcery movie". It aims for far different feelings and emotions, taking itself very seriously, being super serious and theatrical and "arty". It does contains many elements from the genre, but if I have to find any connection, I'd call it a deconstruction of the genre (not saying that was its intention). Anyhoo, it certainly did not slake my thirst for "proper" S&S goodness.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 9, 2022)

Dioltach said:


> We also have The Witcher on television, which goes a long way to making up for the lack.



I really wish I could agree, but I find that the way the showrunners have revealed themselves wanting to take their show in a "new direction" rather than remaining faithful to Andrzej Sapkowski's works (or CD Projekt Red's works for that matter) manifests in unfortunate ways.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 9, 2022)

RuinousPowers said:


> It's sad that not a single one of the classic S&S movies mentioned in the OP came to pass.



Agree.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 9, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> Here's a Wikipedia list if anyone wants to comment:



That list conflates "sword & sorcery" with "epic fantasy".


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## Yora (Nov 9, 2022)

"Not Lord of the Rings" is literally the most fundamental definition of Sword & Sorcery. That's why Moorcock and Leiber were thinking about creating a new term for their works in the first place.


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## aco175 (Nov 9, 2022)

I love Sword and Sorcery, still cannot believe the movie was voted out early in the poll last month.  Talk about CGI


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 10, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> People didn't like the 2011 _Conan the Barbarian_ reboot with Jason Momoa, but I did.



It was entertaining but totally forgettable. And (if I haven't forgotten) it is more a good vs. evil Heroic Fantasy plot rather than sword and sorcery.


Blue Orange said:


> _Onward_ is more of a kids' buddy movie, but I think technically fits.



Heroic fantasy, sure. Sword and Sorcery? Not even close.

_The Great Wall_ has sword and sorcery elements.


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## Blue Orange (Nov 10, 2022)

So we are differentiating sword & sorcery from epic fantasy, then? I wasn't sure as there aren't that many fantasy movies out there.

In that case I'd recommend _Spine of Night_, if nobody's seen it. But if we're separating the genres, the 80s is probably the peak of the genre.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 10, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> So we are differentiating sword & sorcery from epic fantasy, then? I wasn't sure as there aren't that many fantasy movies out there.
> 
> In that case I'd recommend _Spine of Night_, if nobody's seen it. But if we're separating the genres, the 80s is probably the peak of the genre.



People don't usually talk about S&S unless they want to differentiate it from fantasy in general.


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## Yora (Nov 10, 2022)

There really are just two decent S&S movies and two good epic fantasy movies (or three, if you think Return of the King was good) out there.
Fantasy movies are generally junk.


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