# Tomb of Annihilation Is Here - What Do You Think?



## nicolas.carrillos (Sep 8, 2017)

Could someone who already has the book please say what the suggested conversion to Eberron say? Thanks a lot!


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## Osgood (Sep 8, 2017)

I second the Eberron request... the main reason I'm picking this one up is that it seems perfect for Eberron.


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## Mr. Wilson (Sep 8, 2017)

There was a poster over on reddit who accessed the book early and was doing an AMA about it.

Basically, he said Stormreach was substituted as the main hub and that the adventure took place in Xen'drik.  

I don't have it yet to confirm, but that makes a ton of sense on the face of it.


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## NotRussellCrowe (Sep 8, 2017)

Loving the new prices on Fantasy Grounds; only $28 in Canada on Steam, how can I not pick this one up?


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 8, 2017)

Also available on D&D Beyond, nice


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## Raunalyn (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm curious what the disclaimer says; that's always entertaining.


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## NotRussellCrowe (Sep 8, 2017)

Raunalyn said:


> I'm curious what the disclaimer says; that's always entertaining.




Good point, I usually see that leaked ahead of time from someone who got their copy early, but not yet. Likely over the next few days I suspect.


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## uriel222 (Sep 8, 2017)

NotRussellCrowe said:


> Loving the new prices on Fantasy Grounds; only $28 in Canada on Steam, how can I not pick this one up?




How well does Fantasy Grounds work? I've seen it, but they do a really poor job on their website of selling it, and the demo is clunky as hell. How detailed can the characters be (i.e. does their character builder cover everything DNDBeyond does)? Do the published adventures use Fog of War, or is it just the whole map plunked down in front of the players?


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## NotRussellCrowe (Sep 8, 2017)

uriel222 said:


> How well does Fantasy Grounds work? I've seen it, but they do a really poor job on their website of selling it, and the demo is clunky as hell. How detailed can the characters be (i.e. does their character builder cover everything DNDBeyond does)? Do the published adventures use Fog of War, or is it just the whole map plunked down in front of the players?




Personally I think it works well. I didn't find it overly difficult to learn as a player, while it was a bit more work to learn as a DM I don't feel it was more than any other tool. 

There are lots of tutorial videos on YouTube you can check out. There are official ones by Smite Works that work well and Dulux Oz has a series of videos that cover lots of the basics. But the best way to learn I think is to play a few games, and FG Con is coming up next month which will see lots of games to join over a weekend, keep an eye on that site and when player registration opens sign up for a game or two. All DMs run with the expectation that players are new to FG and some are even new to role playing games.


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## Jester David (Sep 8, 2017)

My wife is snagging a copy for me tonight as a lat birthday present. So I won't get my hands on it for another 11 hours... But then I have an entire weekened to devour it. 
Hopefully I can get a review on my site (5mwd.com) by Monday or Tuesday.


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

Fantasy Grounds works ok.  I don't find it to be the most intuitive program and don't always find it easy to find the content that I need.  It does work well for displaying maps to users.  You can easily reveal only select parts of the map.  I use it (at the table) for displaying images and maps to the user.  I also use the combat tracker... though we roll dice manually and enter the results into the tracker.

I am hoping that the long talked about Unity release will bring about usability improvements.

The character builder I am sure supports everything that D&D Beyond supports.  D&D Beyond is more of a reference site while FG is a virtual table top.  So, their intent is different... but there is a lot of overlap.



uriel222 said:


> How well does Fantasy Grounds work? I've seen it, but they do a really poor job on their website of selling it, and the demo is clunky as hell. How detailed can the characters be (i.e. does their character builder cover everything DNDBeyond does)? Do the published adventures use Fog of War, or is it just the whole map plunked down in front of the players?


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## Robert Dean McAnulty (Sep 8, 2017)

*Fantasy Grounds*



uriel222 said:


> How well does Fantasy Grounds work? I've seen it, but they do a really poor job on their website of selling it, and the demo is clunky as hell. How detailed can the characters be (i.e. does their character builder cover everything DNDBeyond does)? Do the published adventures use Fog of War, or is it just the whole map plunked down in front of the players?



I looked into it, but I do not have a lot of friends who are not local, so I have not gotten a chance to try it... Fog is an option in most systems... I really want to try it and wish they could import the Reflex system so I could do Twilight:2013 on it... I have a few friends far reaching that might play that...


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## Raunalyn (Sep 8, 2017)

uriel222 said:


> How well does Fantasy Grounds work? I've seen it, but they do a really poor job on their website of selling it, and the demo is clunky as hell. How detailed can the characters be (i.e. does their character builder cover everything DNDBeyond does)? Do the published adventures use Fog of War, or is it just the whole map plunked down in front of the players?




I personally really like it. Sure, it has some shortcomings (no map maker, occasional client crashes, etc), but character making is really well done, and there is a large community of people who create modules and stuff for the UA articles and homebrews, so it's well supported. The combat tracker is also really well done; as a DM, it does a great job of helping me keep track of effects and durations.

edit: Yes, it does have a Fog of War for published adventures. You can also import your own maps and such.


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## GameOgre (Sep 8, 2017)

I played both Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 and both were fine to play on and both had a large learning curve for DM's but I went with Roll20 because it was cheaper. Now it's turning out that at least so far Fantasy Grounds is the cheaper one. At least to by WOTC stuff on.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 8, 2017)

Still trying to decide if I want to wait for Amazon to deliver on 19th or buy now . . . pretty much double $ if I'm impatient.

Dragon + had good sneak peak, although revealed a little too much for my taste.

I recall reading somewhere PC's could start at 1,3,5 level or something like that? Any details? I recall CoS really kicked off at 3rd, and STK had 'filler' material for early levels before it really got rolling.


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I am in the same boat.  I pre-ordered from Amazon, but am tempted to pick it up today from a local store.  I'll probably just wait, since my group is in the middle of an adventure already (Legacy of the Crystal Shard... great little adventure).

BTW: CoS also included a mini-adventure to raise characters a few levels.



HawaiiSteveO said:


> Still trying to decide if I want to wait for Amazon to deliver on 19th or buy now . . . pretty much double $ if I'm impatient.
> 
> Dragon + had good sneak peak, although revealed a little too much for my taste.
> 
> I recall reading somewhere PC's could start at 1,3,5 level or something like that? Any details? I recall CoS really kicked off at 3rd, and STK had 'filler' material for early levels before it really got rolling.


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## Vampyr3 (Sep 8, 2017)

Raunalyn said:


> I'm curious what the disclaimer says; that's always entertaining.






"Disclaimer: this adventure will make your players hate you--the kind of simmering hatred that eats away at their souls until all that remains are little dark spheres of annihilation where their hearts used to be. PS don't forget to tear up their character sheets"


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

Got it yesterday. Here are some of my first thoughts

It is a huge adventure. With thoughts on characters with starting levels between 1st and 9th lvl.  
It has a list of around 50 named NPCs with short descriptions and pronunciations all in one handy page.
The Death Curse is not messing around
The start feels very sandboxy
The end game looks crazy fun
Feels like the most "living world" official 5e adventure so far (NOTE: I have not read TRoT, PotA nor SKT, so I can't compare to those).
Feels closer to OotA in design, but with seemingly more side quests (just a feeling, could be wrong)
Most compelling story so far. Everyone has a stake in this fight. 
Great terrain based random monster tables (feels like AD&D climate based random encounter charts, except only for Jungle)


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## CapnZapp (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> Got it yesterday. Here are some of my first thoughts
> 
> It is a huge adventure. With thoughts on characters with starting levels between 1st and 9th lvl.



It looks to me an honest description would be an adventure from level 5-11, based on what the AMA guy is saying.

Do note the adventure assumes actual XP levelling. Assuming they've done their math this time around, that should easily be double the content for a milestone-driven supplement for the same level range, so while I _am_ contesting the level range you imply, I'm _not_ contesting your "huge" characterization


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## Raunalyn (Sep 8, 2017)

Vampyr3 said:


> "Disclaimer: this adventure will make your players hate you--the kind of simmering hatred that eats away at their souls until all that remains are little dark spheres of annihilation where their hearts used to be. PS don't forget to tear up their character sheets"




Is that really what it says? OMG, that is frikkin' hysterical!!!!


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> It looks to me an honest description would be an adventure from level 5-11, based on what the AMA guy is saying.
> 
> Do note the adventure assumes actual XP levelling. Assuming they've done their math this time around, that should easily be double the content for a milestone-driven supplement for the same level range, so while I _am_ contesting the level range you imply, I'm _not_ contesting your "huge" characterization




When I said thoughts on level ranges from 1-9 I meant that they have suggestions for handling characters from 1 through 9. At first level do this... if they are 5 th level do this instead. If they are 9th level do the other.

As for the assumption of XP leveling that could be. But they do give areas and suggested levels for several areas. So milestone leveling appears to be quite easy.

Going from memory. I would assume you want to try to stick to the city for lvls 1-3, perhaps small escutcheons until you hit 5th. After that you better venture forward lest the ticking time bomb of the story explodes.


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## LordEntrails (Sep 8, 2017)

I find pricing for it to be really interesting. (Numbers in US Dollars.)

List/MSRP price is $49.95.
I find listing for the printed book on Google starting at $36.97.
On Roll 20 it's $49.95.
On D&D Beyond, can't find a price for it (and I believe it only a subset of the info anyway).
On Fantasy Grounds it's $24.95. (or 25% less than that if you have the complete bundle)

It's cheaper on the more functional FG than it is in any other format. Way to go SmiteWorks, thanks!

You could buy ToA and 6 months subscription license for less than MSRP!


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> It's cheaper on the more functional FG than it is in any other format.




I only play at the table, but I do have FG (the game I got it for fell through). I am wondering if anyone has run a game at the table using FG as a resource?  How well does it compare to just the book?


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## mserabian (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> I find pricing for it to be really interesting. (Numbers in US Dollars.)
> 
> List/MSRP price is $49.95.
> On D&D Beyond, can't find a price for it (and I believe it only a subset of the info anyway).
> On Fantasy Grounds it's $24.95. (or 25% less than that if you have the complete bundle)




FYI It's 24.99 on D&D Beyond and it is the entire book there ...


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## kenmarable (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> I find pricing for it to be really interesting. (Numbers in US Dollars.)
> 
> List/MSRP price is $49.95.
> I find listing for the printed book on Google starting at $36.97.
> ...




At D&D Beyond all adventures are $24.99. This should take you to it, I think.

Edit: Oh, ninja'ed!!


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> I find pricing for it to be really interesting. (Numbers in US Dollars.)
> 
> List/MSRP price is $49.95.
> I find listing for the printed book on Google starting at $36.97.
> ...




It's $24.99 on Beyond, full linked version same as other books you purchase.


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## lkj (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> I find pricing for it to be really interesting. (Numbers in US Dollars.)
> 
> List/MSRP price is $49.95.
> I find listing for the printed book on Google starting at $36.97.
> ...




It's $24.99 on DnDBeyond and you get the whole thing.

AD

Oops. Redundant redundancy!!! (edit)


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## darjr (Sep 8, 2017)

I cannot wait!


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 8, 2017)

http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?filters=45680_0_0_0_0_0&page=1&sort=4a#browselist

New 'adept' stuff up at dmsguild as well.

Still not 100% clear on what starting level of book is...


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I use FG at the table... but I have the book as well.  I use FG to display images and maps to the players.  I also use the combat tracker, though we roll physical dice and enter the results manually.  I have also added D&D Beyond into the mix, because it is much quicker to look up spells and other reference material in D&D Beyond.  Yeah, I spend way too much money on this hobby.



JesterOC said:


> I only play at the table, but I do have FG (the game I got it for fell through). I am wondering if anyone has run a game at the table using FG as a resource?  How well does it compare to just the book?


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## Zarithar (Sep 8, 2017)

So are their any interesting ties to the original Tomb of Horrors or Dwellers of the Forbidden City (aside from Acererak of course)?


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

Hmm the $24 for DnDBeyond is very temping. Making the total price fairly steep Book + Online resource... but damn... an online resource for this adventure might be just what I need.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 8, 2017)

Really interested in the DMs guild stuff. Anyone have it?


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2017)

darjr said:


> I cannot wait!




Judging by your avatar, I never would have guessed.


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## LordEntrails (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> I only play at the table, but I do have FG (the game I got it for fell through). I am wondering if anyone has run a game at the table using FG as a resource?  How well does it compare to just the book?



Lots of people use FG in face-to-face games. An examples;
- https://www.fantasygrounds.com/foru...ble-for-FG-IRL&p=286155&viewfull=1#post286155

FG has both a reference manual section which is similar (but not identical) to a PDF of the book, plus is has everything available as the appropriate database object types; stories, encounters, NPCs, parcels, items, maps and then links between them. Check out some FG play on YouTube or Twitch to see people actually using it.



kenmarable said:


> At D&D Beyond all adventures are $24.99. This should take you to it, I think.
> 
> Edit: Oh, ninja'ed!!



Thanks, but you have to have a Twitch account to see that page.

Does DDB have the adventures in a format you can sit down and read then from start to finish? i.e. something akin to a pdf?


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 8, 2017)

The lizard king adventure into from Shawn Merwin says "real meat of theTomb of Annihilation adventure begins when the player charactersreach 4th or 5th level."


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## CatholicFan (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm a little bummed that the DM's Guild stuff appears to be online only; no POD options.  That kinda sucks


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## kenmarable (Sep 8, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> Lots of people use FG in face-to-face games. An examples;
> - https://www.fantasygrounds.com/foru...ble-for-FG-IRL&p=286155&viewfull=1#post286155
> 
> FG has both a reference manual section which is similar (but not identical) to a PDF of the book, plus is has everything available as the appropriate database object types; stories, encounters, NPCs, parcels, items, maps and then links between them. Check out some FG play on YouTube or Twitch to see people actually using it.
> ...




Sorry, didn't realize it was behind the login.

But, yes you get the full text of the books (although I didn't see the disclaimer)  as web pages. Typically a page for each chapter, I think. There's a left navigation for jumping between sections, and everything that they can link into the tools is linked. So if it mentions Acererak, it is a link that you can hover over to see a summary of his info, and you can click it to get the full details. 

I keep hoping they will release one of the free adventures like SKT: A Great Upheaval so that people can see what the adventures are like prior to purchasing. I can also dig around and see what screenshots are out there.

Oh, and all images and maps are clickable so that they are a modal pop up in higher-res (appears over the rest of the page which is darkened), and you can right click and save them. For most adventures, they have player maps as well, but I'm not sure if they have them for all adventures yet - that's dependent on WotC giving them player maps. Tomb of Annihilation looks to have player maps.


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I have not purchased an adventure yet.  I also am surprised that they did not include a free, sample adventure so that people could get an idea of what they are like prior to purchasing.



kenmarable said:


> I keep hoping they will release one of the free adventures like SKT: A Great Upheaval so that people can see what the adventures are like prior to purchasing. I can also dig around and see what screenshots are out there.
> 
> Oh, and all images and maps are clickable so that they are a modal pop up in higher-res (appears over the rest of the page which is darkened), and you can right click and save them. For most adventures, they have player maps as well, but I'm not sure if they have them for all adventures yet - that's dependent on WotC giving them player maps. Tomb of Annihilation looks to have player maps.


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> The lizard king adventure into from Shawn Merwin says "real meat of theTomb of Annihilation adventure begins when the player charactersreach 4th or 5th level."




I think that is when you really start venturing out of the city. But it looks like the city has a lot of flavor that makes it stand out from a simple jungle run. I would not like to skip that. So while I think it is true that 5th lvl is where you start to directly investigate the main plot. 1-4 seems to have lots of options to build the groundwork for the rest of the game.


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

You are making it very difficult to wait on Amazon in order to get this adventure...



JesterOC said:


> I think that is when you really start venturing out of the city. But it looks like the city has a lot of flavor that makes it stand out from a simple jungle run. I would not like to skip that. So while I think it is true that 5th lvl is where you start to directly investigate the main plot. 1-4 seems to have lots of options to build the groundwork for the rest of the game.


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## Ganymede81 (Sep 8, 2017)

Is there a dungeon filled with nefarious death traps?


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 8, 2017)

Cellar of Death is reads pretty well, interesting fast-paced mission I think my gang will enjoy it. Already have an existing NPC in mind and did set up already so will skip the first part.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 8, 2017)

Is the character options pdf available in the website yet?  Or did they discard it?  They talked something about a new race or something.


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I don't see a new race mentioned:

Included in this pack:
2 Backgrounds
10 Magic Items
60 Monsters




vpuigdoller said:


> Is the character options pdf available in the website yet?  Or did they discard it?  They talked something about a new race or something.


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## Zarithar (Sep 8, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I don't see a new race mentioned:
> 
> Included in this pack:
> 2 Backgrounds
> ...




Right. I thought we were getting playable Grung and Tortles.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 8, 2017)

Zarithar said:


> Right. I thought we were getting playable Grung and Tortles.




I was under that impression as well.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 8, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I don't see a new race mentioned:
> 
> Included in this pack:
> 2 Backgrounds
> ...




Kool but kinda a bummer wanted to play with tortle ppl.  Thanks for sharing the info though.  Which are the backgrounds if you know any specifics?

Edit:  spelling errors due to big fingers and a small phone...


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## smerwin29 (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> I think that is when you really start venturing out of the city. But it looks like the city has a lot of flavor that makes it stand out from a simple jungle run. I would not like to skip that. So while I think it is true that 5th lvl is where you start to directly investigate the main plot. 1-4 seems to have lots of options to build the groundwork for the rest of the game.




This is correct. The hardcover definitely has tons of great content for DMs who want to run levels 1-4 characters in Port Nyanzaru. My point was that there really isn't an "easy to run adventure" for those lower levels for DMs with limited time to prep. For DMs who have the time and inclination to build their own level 1-4 adventure with the pieces from the book, there is definitely a ton of great material there to do so with.

Shawn


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe they'll release a separate document with that information soon?  I don't have the book yet, but based on the description, it doesn't look like it is included in the book... and I don't see any documents for download on the wotc site yet.  I wouldn't get too discouraged yet.



vpuigdoller said:


> Kool but kinda a bummer wanted to play with tortle ppl.  Thanks for sharing the info though.  Which are the backgrounds if you know any specifics?
> 
> Edit:  spelling errors due to big fingers and a small phone...


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## Will Doyle (Sep 8, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Kool but kinda a bummer wanted to play with tortle ppl.  Thanks for sharing the info though.  Which are the backgrounds if you know any specifics?
> 
> Edit:  spelling errors due to big fingers and a small phone...




I don't know about grungs, but tortles are being released separately on the DMs Guild soon as part of a supplement to raise cash for Extra Life:
https://dnd.wizards.com/extralife2017


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## JRedmond (Sep 8, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> I was under that impression as well.




Nope they've said since the beginning they would be released separately.  I believe on DMs Guild later on.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 8, 2017)

Will Doyle said:


> I don't know about grungs, but tortles are being released separately on the DMs Guild soon as part of a supplement to raise cash for Extra Life:
> https://dnd.wizards.com/extralife2017




Oh good catch!  Thank you!


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## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

smerwin29 said:


> This is correct. The hardcover definitely has tons of great content for DMs who want to run levels 1-4 characters in Port Nyanzaru. My point was that there really isn't an "easy to run adventure" for those lower levels for DMs with limited time to prep. For DMs who have the time and inclination to build their own level 1-4 adventure with the pieces from the book, there is definitely a ton of great material there to do so with.
> 
> Shawn



Agreed. Taking a better look at it this lunch, the city does not contain any mini adventures. Their are many personalities, many little things to do, and information to glean, but no in City mini adventures. 
There are many points of interest throughout the land that have information ranging from a simpler paragraph to a full map with many numbered areas. If I counted correctly there are 14 of those kinds of sites that have maps associated with them. In general these locations seem to be challenging for levels 1 through 6. 
If you want to run it pure sandbox mode the players will have to be careful least they step into an area they can't handle.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## LordEntrails (Sep 8, 2017)

CatholicFan said:


> I'm a little bummed that the DM's Guild stuff appears to be online only; no POD options.  That kinda sucks



DMsG removed POD options some weeks/months ago. Never heard why, but something about quality or problems getting the proper format from people. Not sure.


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## Quickleaf (Sep 8, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Kool but kinda a bummer wanted to play with tortle ppl.  Thanks for sharing the info though.  Which are the backgrounds if you know any specifics?
> 
> Edit:  spelling errors due to big fingers and a small phone...




Anthropologist & Archaeologist. Doubling down on the Indiana Jones / Lost Continent feel.

If you go to https://www.dndbeyond.com/marketplace/source/25 there's a list of all magic items & monsters included in ToA as well.


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## JRedmond (Sep 8, 2017)

What about the ten side quests?




JesterOC said:


> Agreed. Taking a better look at it this lunch, the city does not contain any mini adventures. Their are many personalities, many little things to do, and information to glean, but no in City mini adventures.






JesterOC said:


> There are many points of interest throughout the land that have information ranging from a simpler paragraph to a full map with many numbered areas. If I counted correctly there are 14 of those kinds of sites that have maps associated with them. In general these locations seem to be challenging for levels 1 through 6.
> If you want to run it pure sandbox mode the players will have to be careful least they step into an area they can't handle.
> 
> 
> ...


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## CapnZapp (Sep 8, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> If you go to https://www.dndbeyond.com/marketplace/source/25 there's a list of all magic items & monsters included in ToA as well.



Sorry, its behind a login screen.


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## fjw70 (Sep 8, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Sorry, its behind a login screen.




Here is a quick copy and paste. 

Amulet of the Black Skull
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Bookmark
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Ghost Lantern
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Mask of the Beast
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Ring of Winter
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Scorpion Armor
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Staff of the Forgotten One
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Yklwa, +1
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Yklwa, +2
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Yklwa, +3
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Monsters
CONTENT UNLOCKED
Individual Purchase Options
Acererak
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Albino Dwarf Spirit Warrior
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Albino Dwarf Warrior
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Aldani (Lobsterfolk)
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Almiraj
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Ankylosaurus Zombie
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Artus Cimber
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Assassin Vine
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Atropal
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Bodak
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Brontosaurus
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Champion
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Chwinga
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Deinonychus
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Dimetrodon
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Dragonbait
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Eblis
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Firenewt Warlock of Imix
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Firenewt Warrior
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Flail Snail
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Flying Monkey
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Froghemoth
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Giant Four-Armed Gargoyle
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Giant Snapping Turtle
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Giant Strider
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Girallon
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Girallon Zombie
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Grung
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Grung Elite Warrior
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Grung Wildling
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Hadrosaurus
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Jaculi
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Kamadan
$1.99
VIEW DETAILS
Kobold Inventor
$1.99
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Kobold Scale Sorcerer
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Zindar


----------



## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

JRedmond said:


> What about the ten side quests?



Can you elaborate? As I said there are about 14 maps of various areas that are not the main areas of interest. Those could be considered side quests. I remember that a prince in town would ask for mini quests. I assume that perhaps 10 NPCs might ask about 10 of those locations?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2017)

I have a huge pet peeve.  This book MUST come with a pdf as well.  At least the handouts.  You can't use the handouts without tearing them out of the book, and if you do, you destroy half of them because they are printed front and back.  So if I cut out handout 24 for example, I've just ruined and destroyed all the god handouts on the other side of the page.


----------



## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I have a huge pet peeve.  This book MUST come with a pdf as well.  At least the handouts.  You can't use the handouts without tearing them out of the book, and if you do, you destroy half of them because they are printed front and back.  So if I cut out handout 24 for example, I've just ruined and destroyed all the god handouts on the other side of the page.



It does indeed suck, unless they assume everyone has a color copier

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Quickleaf (Sep 8, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Sorry, its behind a login screen.




Free registration. And [MENTION=80924]fjw70[/MENTION] has you covered.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 8, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> Free registration. And [MENTION=80924]fjw70[/MENTION] has you covered.



Yes thanks to fjw. 

But please don't link to sites that require login, free or not. That's always annoying, especially since there's almost always a more friendly option.

Cheers


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> It does indeed suck, unless they assume everyone has a color copier



You're supposed to buy the maps digitally from the artist.

I'm assuming any handout that can't be purchased will eventually be included in some "player's pack"...


----------



## Uchawi (Sep 8, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> Anthropologist & Archaeologist. Doubling down on the Indiana Jones / Lost Continent feel.
> 
> If you go to https://www.dndbeyond.com/marketplace/source/25 there's a list of all magic items & monsters included in ToA as well.



I was getting some dark sun flashbacks looking at some of the art work.


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## Quickleaf (Sep 8, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Yes thanks to fjw.
> 
> But please don't link to sites that require login, free or not. That's always annoying, especially since there's almost always a more friendly option.
> 
> Cheers




Sorry you were having access problems. Here's what I see when I take the time to log-on. Cheers.


----------



## lkj (Sep 8, 2017)

smerwin29 said:


> This is correct. The hardcover definitely has tons of great content for DMs who want to run levels 1-4 characters in Port Nyanzaru. My point was that there really isn't an "easy to run adventure" for those lower levels for DMs with limited time to prep. For DMs who have the time and inclination to build their own level 1-4 adventure with the pieces from the book, there is definitely a ton of great material there to do so with.
> 
> Shawn




Perhaps the Guild  stuff is supposed to help fill this need for those who want it?

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/214058/DDAL0701-A-City-on-the-Edge-5e

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/220591/Encounters-in-Port-Nyanzaru

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/220567/Beasts-of-the-Jungle-Rot

AD


----------



## JRedmond (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> Can you elaborate? As I said there are about 14 maps of various areas that are not the main areas of interest. Those could be considered side quests. I remember that a prince in town would ask for mini quests. I assume that perhaps 10 NPCs might ask about 10 of those locations?
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk




I don't have the physical book, I have it on D&D Beyond.  Here is a link to D&D Beyond if you have it there.  https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/adventures/toa/port-nyanzaru#SideQuests  Otherwise it's under Chapter 1 right after Arrival.  Let me know if you find it.


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## lkj (Sep 8, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> It does indeed suck, unless they assume everyone has a color copier
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk




It doesn't solve the problem of handouts. But Mike Schley is offering the digital version of the players map of chult for free:

http://prints.mikeschley.com/p923843744/h956e8d5c#h956e8d5c

AD


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I broke down and purchased this on D&D Beyond.  I have to say, so far, I really like the way that the adventure is set up on D&D Beyond.  I am sure I'll be able to print any hand outs needed from there.  I'll most likely purchase whatever Mike Schley makes available.  According to his site, his bundle won't be available until Dec 8th...  Though, as someone else mentioned, he has made a map available for free already.



Sacrosanct said:


> I have a huge pet peeve.  This book MUST come with a pdf as well.  At least the handouts.  You can't use the handouts without tearing them out of the book, and if you do, you destroy half of them because they are printed front and back.  So if I cut out handout 24 for example, I've just ruined and destroyed all the god handouts on the other side of the page.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2017)

lkj said:


> It doesn't solve the problem of handouts. But Mike Schley is offering the digital version of the players map of chult for free:
> 
> http://prints.mikeschley.com/p923843744/h956e8d5c#h956e8d5c
> 
> AD




Edit 3x to clear it up:  That file has both a player's and DM's map, but it's not the same player's map as in the book.  The player's map in that file has a lot more information.


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## Azzy (Sep 8, 2017)

An atropal? Nice!


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## ddaley (Sep 8, 2017)

I haven't looked at the player's map closely yet, but it does have some labels.  The map is given to the players by someone and it contains all of the information that that person knows about the island.  So, I am assuming that is why it has some labels already...



Sacrosanct said:


> Edit 3x to clear it up:  That file has both a player's and DM's map, but it's not the same player's map as in the book.  The player's map in that file has a lot more information.


----------



## gyor (Sep 8, 2017)

lkj said:


> It doesn't solve the problem of handouts. But Mike Schley is offering the digital version of the players map of chult for free:
> 
> http://prints.mikeschley.com/p923843744/h956e8d5c#h956e8d5c
> 
> AD




 A lot of ruins, only three settlements that I saw,  plus two forts.


----------



## JesterOC (Sep 8, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> You're supposed to buy the maps digitally from the artist.
> 
> I'm assuming any handout that can't be purchased will eventually be included in some "player's pack"...




Not sure what will be in the player's pack is. But I think [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] was referencing the handouts not the maps.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Sep 9, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> You're supposed to buy the maps digitally from the artist.
> 
> I'm assuming any handout that can't be purchased will eventually be included in some "player's pack"...




If you buy it from D&D beyond you have access to the Handouts and High quality digital maps. (In both dm and player form.)

For those who want to print out copies of handouts D&D beyond is probably the best choice


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

Mr. Wilson said:


> There was a poster over on reddit who accessed the book early and was doing an AMA about it.



Link? Curious just how well the conversion works, since PotA was a bit iffy.


----------



## Charles Rampant (Sep 9, 2017)

For those that have it, how does this adventure and its locations work as a sidequest source? I've got a homebrew campaign on the Sword Coast, and would be perfectly happy to ship my players (or, at least, their characters) down to Chult for a couple months to do a jungle themed exploration story. Will this book have useful stuff for that, or is it all laser-focused on the adventure storyline?


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## Jester David (Sep 9, 2017)

Owned!!
View attachment 88322


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 9, 2017)

My FLGS didn't get their shipment, so unfortunately I wasn't able to get the full book. I did, however, purchase the monster package on D&D Beyond (because, hey, monsters can always be used in hombrew in the meantime and in the future!), and I really like the various new monsters available. I'm very happy to see a nice selection of nasty plant foes, which were lacking in the MM, including a lot of my favorites that hadn't been updated yet to 5e - it will be nice to surprise my players with assassin vines or yellow musk creepers/zombies. Also, there are three new CR 10+ monsters (not including Acererak himself), which is at least a small step towards getting more higher-level foes...


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## ddaley (Sep 9, 2017)

I haven't even finished chapter 1 yet (keep getting distracted with appendices), but, I am loving this so far.



Demetrios1453 said:


> My FLGS didn't get their shipment, so unfortunately I wasn't able to get the full book. I did, however, purchase the monster package on D&D Beyond (because, hey, monsters can always be used in hombrew in the meantime and in the future!), and I really like the various new monsters available. I'm very happy to see a nice selection of nasty plant foes, which were lacking in the MM, including a lot of my favorites that hadn't been updated yet to 5e - it will be nice to surprise my players with assassin vines or yellow musk creepers/zombies. Also, there are three new CR 10+ monsters (not including Acererak himself), which is at least a small step towards getting more higher-level foes...


----------



## Jester David (Sep 9, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> It does indeed suck, unless they assume everyone has a color copier
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk



5/6th of my table has high resolution instant scanners in their pockets (known as "smartphones) so that's less of an issue.

PDFs are nice, but I can also just text a handout instantly...


----------



## SubDude (Sep 9, 2017)

Vampyr3 said:


> "Disclaimer: this adventure will make your players hate you--the kind of simmering hatred that eats away at their souls until all that remains are little dark spheres of annihilation where their hearts used to be. PS don't forget to tear up their character sheets"




And I just put that on the outside of my Screen.


----------



## Mr. Wilson (Sep 9, 2017)

Mercule said:


> Link? Curious just how well the conversion works, since PotA was a bit iffy.




https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/6yh738/spoilers_just_picked_up_tomb_of_annihilation_ama/

Here you go.


----------



## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 9, 2017)

I'm really enjoying the information on the starting Port and Chult. (I'm a sucker for region fluff and maps)
I haven't really gotten into the dungeon chapter(s) yet.
The monster appendix is nice.
My only gripe (and it's minor) ..... I really wish they'd stop moving Greyhawk stuff out of Greyhawk. So far we've had Elemental Evil moved to the Realms, Mordenkainen trapped in Ravenloft, and now Acererak is in the Realms. If all this stuff is cool, (and it is) give us a Greyhawk book.
Even Mike Schley got in on the action today and gave away the pull-out map for free!!
Overall, so far .... I'm very happy I was able to get this early.


----------



## JesterOC (Sep 9, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> For those that have it, how does this adventure and its locations work as a sidequest source? I've got a homebrew campaign on the Sword Coast, and would be perfectly happy to ship my players (or, at least, their characters) down to Chult for a couple months to do a jungle themed exploration story. Will this book have useful stuff for that, or is it all laser-focused on the adventure storyline?




I have not read the vast majority of the book of course. But I would not say laser focused. However it seems that many small encounters have clues that hint to the big picture. As perkins said the story is designed to slowly unfold. From the little I have read it does look like it does that by using NPCs that you find along the way.

Given that, it looks OK for a side-quest source and a good jungle terrain source (just like Out of the Abyss was good if you plan to run adventures in the under-dark). But most likely a bit costly if that is all you are going to be using it for.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 9, 2017)

So I got it for roll20, and so far I love what I see.  I specially love the new backgrounds and the 10 feet pole pseudo joke in the archaeology one.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> My only gripe (and it's minor) ..... I really wish they'd stop moving Greyhawk stuff out of Greyhawk. So far we've had Elemental Evil moved to the Realms, Mordenkainen trapped in Ravenloft, and now Acererak is in the Realms.




I believe that particular boat has sailed.

To me it's clear they've concluded the game doesn't need multiple worlds, or it risks confusing future movie and toy customers, which is where the real money is.

At least there can be no doubt they are moving everything and the kitchen sink into the Realms.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Inchoroi (Sep 9, 2017)

Huh. I might actually have to buy this one. To Amazon!


----------



## AriochQ (Sep 9, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> ...
> My only gripe (and it's minor) ..... I really wish they'd stop moving Greyhawk stuff out of Greyhawk. So far we've had Elemental Evil moved to the Realms, Mordenkainen trapped in Ravenloft, and now Acererak is in the Realms. If all this stuff is cool, (and it is) give us a Greyhawk book.




This!

It is almost as if they are attempting to coop all the quality GH material in the hopes that GH fans will somehow fall in love with FR.  GH has a certain feel and FR has a different feel, they do both a disservice by mashing them together.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

AriochQ said:


> This!
> 
> It is almost as if they are attempting to coop all the quality GH material in the hopes that GH fans will somehow fall in love with FR.  GH has a certain feel and FR has a different feel, they do both a disservice by mashing them together.



Not sure that's the correct conclusion. 

I mean, they're doing it alright, but probably there are several reasons more pressing than "make people fall in love with the realms" 

Likely, the simple answer is they want people to just associate ONE world with "D&D"

Having multiple worlds is likely considered a significant disadvantage when you try to build up brand awareness in the movie and toy figure businesses. 

The people at that level aren't showing favoritism when they choose the Realms. They just want to create a single unified experience. Like Westeros. Or the universe hosting Iron Man and Captain America. 

They would have chosen Mystara if the data had indicated that as the most used world. 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 9, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> The people at that level aren't showing favoritism when they choose the Realms. They just want to create a single unified experience. Like Westeros. Or the universe hosting Iron Man and Captain America.




Aww, we almost made it 9 pages before someone complained about FR. I guess that's progress. 

That said, I agree with the above quote; it's not any grand conspiracy as much as economic sense. Let's say WotC wanted to do a proper GH ToH sequel in 5e. They'd either have to release a GH book to introduce the names, concepts, Gods, etc or waste a significant amount of space in the module to introduce these concepts. Then you'd have to coordinate with the AL to figure out how that season would work (no small task to either start a new living world or port PC's from FR to GH). Further, it would limit options such as removing SCAG options from play. All that for one module. 

The closest analogy is Ravenloft, and there is a very good reason why they went back to "weekend in hell" rather than "campaign setting" Ravenloft. I'd wager a planar/Planescape module will follow a similar path. The release schedule doesn't really have a way to support multiple settings at this time.


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I believe that particular boat has sailed.
> 
> To me it's clear they've concluded the game doesn't need multiple worlds, or it risks confusing future movie and toy customers, which is where the real money is.



I'm afraid you're correct, which makes me sad. I, personally, feel that the semi-generic nature of D&D is one of its best traits and is probably the biggest reason why I still come back to it despite flirtations with other systems. It's always been the game system that best balanced both the complexity vs. ease of learning axis as well as my desire to create my own world while supporting me with default lore to fall back on and multiple example settings to mine. Coalescing around any given setting is a huge, huge negative, in my mind and will probably drive me away from D&D, in the end.

The fact that it's the Realms, which I love in D&D with the same passion as Clinton loves Trump in the White House, is just the icing on the cake.

I fully understand the financial incentive for WotC to morph the "D&D RPG" into the "Forgotten Realms RPG". I just don't like it. They probably have about six months to announce actual, formal support for another setting before I give up and find another system for my next campaign. I could ignore all the Realms stuff in 5E -- it's a mighty fine system -- but I want to be active in the community for whatever game I'm playing. If the conversation is always around the Realms and everyone is playing in the Realms, it just isn't any fun. I'm encouraged by the most recent UA poll, but we'll see.


----------



## Jester David (Sep 9, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> My only gripe (and it's minor) ..... I really wish they'd stop moving Greyhawk stuff out of Greyhawk. So far we've had Elemental Evil moved to the Realms, Mordenkainen trapped in Ravenloft, and now Acererak is in the Realms. If all this stuff is cool, (and it is) give us a Greyhawk book.



Acererak was only loosely in Greyhawk. 
His Tomb was always meant to be modular and fit in any world, and the references to Greyhawk in that module were weird as it predated the first Greyhawk product (the Folio) by two years. 

I'm more annoyed he's a lich and not a demilich...


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> That said, I agree with the above quote; it's not any grand conspiracy as much as economic sense. Let's say WotC wanted to do a proper GH ToH sequel in 5e. They'd either have to release a GH book to introduce the names, concepts, Gods, etc or waste a significant amount of space in the module to introduce these concepts. Then you'd have to coordinate with the AL to figure out how that season would work (no small task to either start a new living world or port PC's from FR to GH). Further, it would limit options such as removing SCAG options from play. All that for one module.



I'm cognizant of these concerns, but not really sympathetic. One of the design goals of D&D should be to promote diversity of settings. That doesn't mean we have to go back to the 2E money pit of a bazillion published settings. It does mean that, assuming WotC does have a goal of "a single unified experience", they have goals directly at odds with what I see as something that's inherent in the core of D&D.

I also don't think it's nearly as hard as you make it out. The Greyhawk gods are already in the back of the PHB. The original ToEE and AtG didn't need a deep dive into Greyhawk -- they had the maps they needed. All the pre-SCAG adventures worked just fine in the Realms w/o having a separate source book for the setting. I don't actually have SCAG, but my understanding is that many of the options aren't actually Realms-specific and that those that are (Purple Dragon Knight) actually have conversion options for other settings.

Of course, I'm also very strongly of the opinion that each published setting should have a few things that actually are unique to it and distinguish it from the other settings: Warforged and Dragonmarks for Eberron, Muls and Defilers for Dark Sun, etc. Other than a couple of sub-classes, Greyhawk and the Realms are probably the exception. So, implicitly invalidating a very small amount of the SCAG is more a feature than a bug, IMO.

I'm not an AL participant, so I'll totally grant that I don't understand the implications of switching worlds. I also don't have any idea of how much business the AL drives to WotC. Again, I'm not overly sympathetic. If AL is that big of a money machine that it warrants the lion's share of the attention, so be it. Just start putting an "AL" logo on all the Realms stuff so that it's clear that's a subset of D&D. And, then, produce some non-AL content for the rest of us. Also, stop borrowing names from the Realms for books that aren't for the Realms -- especially stupid ones like "Xanathar". At the least, borrow names from multiple settings, if the direction is to use proper names for the books.



> The closest analogy is Ravenloft, and there is a very good reason why they went back to "weekend in hell" rather than "campaign setting" Ravenloft. I'd wager a planar/Planescape module will follow a similar path. The release schedule doesn't really have a way to support multiple settings at this time.



Planescape is actually the one setting that could work as the default backdrop for the game. I've never particularly cared for a lot of the Planescape-isms, but they've worked their way into the game and it's supposed to be what unifies everything. If you want your AL group to follow the various published adventures, then just be aware they're passing through Sigil on their way between seasons. It also helps to permit the Purple Dragon Knight and the House Cannith Artificer in the same group (even though Eberron doesn't work particularly well with the Great Wheel).


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Acererak was only loosely in Greyhawk.
> His Tomb was always meant to be modular and fit in any world, and the references to Greyhawk in that module were weird as it predated the first Greyhawk product (the Folio) by two years.



Yup. This one actually doesn't bother me being set in the Realms other than just general Realms fatigue. There's a non-zero chance that I'll buy it and run it, as-is -- unless it really is easy to port to Xen'drik.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

Is there anything in the module that prevents you from simply lifting out "lich" and dropping in "demilich" in its place?

I mean, I can understand the annoyance if he's described doing something a demilich can't do.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Acererak was only loosely in Greyhawk.
> His Tomb was always meant to be modular and fit in any world, and the references to Greyhawk in that module were weird as it predated the first Greyhawk product (the Folio) by two years.
> 
> I'm more annoyed he's a lich and not a demilich...




He decided to come back from wandering the planes as a spirit and implement this plan.  Hence back to lich.  IMO.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

Mercule said:


> I'm not an AL participant, so I'll totally grant that I don't understand the implications of switching worlds. I also don't have any idea of how much business the AL drives to WotC.



I would assume the AL plays close to zero part in these kinds of decisions.

If WotC decided to publish an adventure outside of the Realms, it would be up to the AL to deal with it. Which they would easily do.


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Is there anything in the module that prevents you from simply lifting out "lich" and dropping in "demilich" in its place?
> 
> I mean, I can understand the annoyance if he's described doing something a demilich can't do.



Funny enough, the flavor text for demilich calls out Acerak as the archetypal demilich. Of course, Chris Perkins also mentioned in an interview that Acerak hasn't exactly been depicted consistently over the years.

I'd probably run with Acerak being some sort of special demilich who can produce a lich-like "avatar" for anything he does that requires such. His essence is still in a skull somewhere.


----------



## Jester David (Sep 9, 2017)

Mercule said:


> Yup. This one actually doesn't bother me being set in the Realms other than just general Realms fatigue. There's a non-zero chance that I'll buy it and run it, as-is -- unless it really is easy to port to Xen'drik.



I'm planning on making Chult an island in the Feywild for my campaign. 

It has a lot of Realmslore in it. References to gods, old novels, Thay, and more. It's probably the most actual Realms in an adventure. Which is a nice feature-bug, as _Princes of the Apocalypse_ and even _Storm Kings Thunder_ were pretty generic with the Realms just being used rather than slapping names on a generic blank map. (Which is really the point: the Realms is used so they don't have to design a generic placeholder world from scratch, like they did in 4e.)
But, if you just run Acererak's tomb that all is easy to ignore. 



CapnZapp said:


> Is there anything in the module that prevents you from simply lifting out "lich" and dropping in "demilich" in its place?
> 
> I mean, I can understand the annoyance if he's described doing something a demilich can't do.



Liches tend to do a whole lot more than demiliches, and lack all of the soul sucking abilities.
Plus, he was the first and most iconic of the demiliches. Making him a straight up lich feels like making Strahd a zombie or Lolth a unique giant spider...


----------



## Mercule (Sep 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I'm planning on making Chult an island in the Feywild for my campaign.



Oh... I like that idea. Maybe put it in Lamannia. If Acerak is trying to establish a Tomb on all sorts of worlds, that might be the migration between the Realms and Eberron, since Eberron has a different cosmology -- Lamannia might touch on the Realms' Feywild at certain points. Thelanis is more straight-up faerie, but Lamannia has more swamps and captures what Perkins(?) said in an interview about the Feywild being about dynamic life.



> It has a lot of Realmslore in it. References to gods, old novels, Thay, and more. It's probably the most actual Realms in an adventure. Which is a nice feature-bug, as _Princes of the Apocalypse_ and even _Storm Kings Thunder_ were pretty generic with the Realms just being used rather than slapping names on a generic blank map. (Which is really the point: the Realms is used so they don't have to design a generic placeholder world from scratch, like they did in 4e.)
> But, if you just run Acererak's tomb that all is easy to ignore.



Wow. I kinda thought they might be setting in Chult to ease away from strong Realms-lore. I know very little about the old novels besides the Avatar Trilogy and Drizzt. I might have to check it out at the game store to see what I think. Chult may or may not have the same sort of feel that bugs me about the Realms. I may or may not be able to tweak the adventure to move to Xen'drik/Lamannia. Depending on exactly what bits are hard to scrub, Lamannia might be a nice way to allow the inconsistencies while purging the really distasteful bits (if any). Unfortunately, the Realms deities are one of the things that really bug me. Unless they picked some that are unusual, that might be a sticking point.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Sep 9, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Not sure that's the correct conclusion.




Interesting then, isn't it, that they keep porting Greyhawk ideas to the Realms but don't really touch any Realms ideas in the Realms. Most everything we have so far updates a classic GH module and relocates it to the Realms. 

Were the old FR adventures just so bad that they aren't worth tapping for this? Or does this policy implicitly acknowledge that Realms-origin stories are even less interesting than the GH ones?


----------



## Jester David (Sep 9, 2017)

Mercule said:


> Oh... I like that idea. Maybe put it in Lamannia. If Acerak is trying to establish a Tomb on all sorts of worlds, that might be the migration between the Realms and Eberron, since Eberron has a different cosmology -- Lamannia might touch on the Realms' Feywild at certain points. Thelanis is more straight-up faerie, but Lamannia has more swamps and captures what Perkins(?) said in an interview about the Feywild being about dynamic life.



Lammania works too. As you say, it's more savage and less magical/ fey than Thelanis. 
There's a few weretigers and tabaxi in the book that could be replaced by shifters. And Port Nyanzaru could be presented less as a sea port and more of a planar port where people from Khorvaire enter that realm through a coterminous location. 

For me, the Feywild is also a neat way to explain dinosaurs if they're uncommon in your setting. And it makes it easier to use the names of the unusual gods and just describe them as "archfey". And the Realms elements that slip in (like Thay) are explained as people from the Realms actually going to the Feywild as well for the same reasons as the party.
(Plus... no oceans in my setting. It's that or I try and pull out all the locations and associate them with places in a mountain ringed lizardfolk infested swamp area of my world...)

And I like the epic feel of having Acererak's plan span multiple worlds and effecting the ressurected everywhere. 



Mercule said:


> Wow. I kinda thought they might be setting in Chult to ease away from strong Realms-lore. I know very little about the old novels besides the Avatar Trilogy and Drizzt. I might have to check it out at the game store to see what I think. Chult may or may not have the same sort of feel that bugs me about the Realms. I may or may not be able to tweak the adventure to move to Xen'drik/Lamannia. Depending on exactly what bits are hard to scrub, Lamannia might be a nice way to allow the inconsistencies while purging the really distasteful bits (if any). Unfortunately, the Realms deities are one of the things that really bug me. Unless they picked some that are unusual, that might be a sticking point.



It references a lot of Chult. Much like how SKT referenced bits of pieces of the lore of the North. But more so as there are characters from novels set in Chult, references to what happened in Chult during the Spellplague, lots of Chult gods, and the like. Bits of it might be tricky to entirely work into Eberron. Even Acererak's tomb, which - spoilers - the gods of Chult are involved with.

It's somewhat nice in that it actually feels more like a Realms adventure rather than just an adventure that just so happens to be set in the Realms (albeit with a Greyhawk villain), but harder to file the serial numbers off. 
But not impossible mind you...


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## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

Ath-kethin said:


> Interesting then, isn't it, that they keep porting Greyhawk ideas to the Realms but don't really touch any Realms ideas in the Realms. Most everything we have so far updates a classic GH module and relocates it to the Realms.
> 
> Were the old FR adventures just so bad that they aren't worth tapping for this? Or does this policy implicitly acknowledge that Realms-origin stories are even less interesting than the GH ones?



Accusing the Realms centric publications to not have enough Realms in them is new, that I haven't heard! 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Liches tend to do a whole lot more than demiliches, and lack all of the soul sucking abilities.
> Plus, he was the first and most iconic of the demiliches. Making him a straight up lich feels like making Strahd a zombie or Lolth a unique giant spider...



Sure, but that doesn't answer my query  

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 9, 2017)

Ath-kethin said:


> Interesting then, isn't it, that they keep porting Greyhawk ideas to the Realms but don't really touch any Realms ideas in the Realms. Most everything we have so far updates a classic GH module and relocates it to the Realms.
> 
> Were the old FR adventures just so bad that they aren't worth tapping for this? Or does this policy implicitly acknowledge that Realms-origin stories are even less interesting than the GH ones?




No, I just don't think there are very many Realms-centric adventures out there to begin with.  Most Realms stuff has all been mainly setting material and gazetteer stuff, with most adventures made specifically for the Realms falling in the 'Living Realms' type of thing.  On top of that, Realms-cetric modules are all from like the mid '80s on... and all of these repurposed "classic" adventures that are being used for the 5E APs are the really old ones that came out before then back in the '70s and early '80s.  I mean, it's not like WotC is repurposing 2E or 3E generic adventures either.

But let's also not forget that all of these classic modules that WotC is repurposing are NOT Greyhawk modules.  They are generic modules used for tournaments and stuff and it was only after they released the World of Greyhawk box set that they _assigned_ places on Oerth where you might find these modules.  So people only started thinking they were actual Greyhawk modules after the fact.  And even further... none of the APs released _prior_ to this one with Acererak had anything in them that was actually from any other setting.  Yes, the ideas for these APs were inspired by previous modules that people attribute to Greyhawk... but nothing within any of the adventures actually were Greyhawk related.  So WotC never "stole" anything from that setting and gave it to the Realms to begin with.

I mean, if anyone can name an actual classic Forgotten Realms module and what that module's central story is about... maybe that could eventually become the story basis for another AP down the line.  But god knows I can't think of any "classic Forgotten Realms module" for the life of me.  I'd say _maybe_ 'Under Illefarn'... but they already did repurpose that one for their D&D Next 'Scourge of the Sword Coast' adventure.  Which means all we really have are our other "classics" to repurpose, all of which are our '70s and early '80s famous ones... all of which get thought of as Greyhawkian despite them not originally being that.

And besides... everyone who wants other campaign settings are going to get their wish next Autumn 2018.  The last great "classic" module remaining for WotC to steal from is "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"... so the plot line of the next big AP is going to be Faerunian adventurers finding a space ship in like the Graypeak Mountains, and once they explore it and get the ship running... this 'Spelljammer' ship will take them to Sigil and then out to a bunch of the other campaign worlds, like Oerth, Khorvaire, Athas, and Krynn.


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## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 9, 2017)

As per Mearls and the gang, the actual setting situation is that all World of the Material Plane are now part of one large multiverse- travel between them is possible utilizing things like the city of Sigil or (theoretically) spelljammers. So Greyhawk exists, and someone from Greyhawk can leave and pass through Sigil, or Barovia, or whatever to get to the realms, or to krynn, or whatever. In this case acerak is a powerful enough magic user to be able to wander between the planes and the various worlds of the material plane and was attracted to chult as a location for his plans. We can see this in action on the streams- The Waffle Crew for instance, is from the realms, but they meet up with Mordenkainen (who is explicitly from Greyhawk) in Barovia (which is in the Shadowfell). Stryx is from Sigil... then factor in that other Dread Lords are from other worlds as well, such as Sothe being from krynn and you can see the sort of multiverse they have in mind. 

As we start to see support for Plane-hopping, we'll see support for places like Eberron, Krynn, Oerth, Sigil and so forth as well.


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## Greg Benage (Sep 9, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> I mean, if anyone can name an actual classic Forgotten Realms module and what that module's central story is about... maybe that could eventually become the story basis for another AP down the line.  But god knows I can't think of any "classic Forgotten Realms module" for the life of me.




_Ruins of Undermountain_ is the only one, AFAIC, but I'm still mostly convinced Wizards had it on the schedule ("Labyrinth") and whiffed, leading to hasty development and publication of the odd duck that is _Tales from the Yawning Portal_.


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## guachi (Sep 9, 2017)

Ath-kethin said:


> Were the old FR adventures just so bad that they aren't worth tapping for this? Or does this policy implicitly acknowledge that Realms-origin stories are even less interesting than the GH ones?




1. Mostly, yes.

2. Also, yes.


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## EthanSental (Sep 9, 2017)

Already had the group pointed toward Chult, character death in the past.  Heading south of Camp Vengence, old ruin in the jungle...all while using Syrinscape for jungle background


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## woodja (Sep 9, 2017)

For those asking (quite a few pages back) about playable Grung - they are (sort of) available already. (info here)


The death curse is in effect within Chult.  If you die, you cannot be resurrected.  The only way to get your character back is to enlist a surrogate from the ones proved here on the WoTC website (don't know if this info is also in the book).
One of those surrogates is a Grung Rogue (available at Tier 1 and Tier 2)
Not sure how many will actually use it though as it has this mechanic:

WATER DEPENDENCY.
If you fail to immerse yourself in water for at least 1 hour during a day, you suffer one level of exhaustion at the end of
that day. You can only recover from this exhaustion through magic or by immersing yourself in water for at least 1
hour.


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## fjw70 (Sep 9, 2017)

I plan to take advantage of the multiverse for this adventure. My campaign started in the Nentir Vale and at level 3 I will run the TOA (starting tomorrow). I will just have the NPC tell them that the place they need to go is in a far away land that requires a sea voyage. At some point the ship will enter a fog and be transported to the Realms. The players may or may not know they are in a different world. It will be a far away exotic land with strange/unknown Gods.


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## gyor (Sep 9, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No, I just don't think there are very many Realms-centric adventures out there to begin with.  Most Realms stuff has all been mainly setting material and gazetteer stuff, with most adventures made specifically for the Realms falling in the 'Living Realms' type of thing.  On top of that, Realms-cetric modules are all from like the mid '80s on... and all of these repurposed "classic" adventures that are being used for the 5E APs are the really old ones that came out before then back in the '70s and early '80s.  I mean, it's not like WotC is repurposing 2E or 3E generic adventures either.
> 
> But let's also not forget that all of these classic modules that WotC is repurposing are NOT Greyhawk modules.  They are generic modules used for tournaments and stuff and it was only after they released the World of Greyhawk box set that they _assigned_ places on Oerth where you might find these modules.  So people only started thinking they were actual Greyhawk modules after the fact.  And even further... none of the APs released _prior_ to this one with Acererak had anything in them that was actually from any other setting.  Yes, the ideas for these APs were inspired by previous modules that people attribute to Greyhawk... but nothing within any of the adventures actually were Greyhawk related.  So WotC never "stole" anything from that setting and gave it to the Realms to begin with.
> 
> ...




 Desert of Desolation is set in the Forgotten Realms, although admittedly when it was first published it was generic then added later, in the Raurin Desert as the ruins of an  Imaskari Survivor state.

 Then there is Undermountain, the Avatar Trilogy, and so on.


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## gyor (Sep 9, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No, I just don't think there are very many Realms-centric adventures out there to begin with.  Most Realms stuff has all been mainly setting material and gazetteer stuff, with most adventures made specifically for the Realms falling in the 'Living Realms' type of thing.  On top of that, Realms-cetric modules are all from like the mid '80s on... and all of these repurposed "classic" adventures that are being used for the 5E APs are the really old ones that came out before then back in the '70s and early '80s.  I mean, it's not like WotC is repurposing 2E or 3E generic adventures either.
> 
> But let's also not forget that all of these classic modules that WotC is repurposing are NOT Greyhawk modules.  They are generic modules used for tournaments and stuff and it was only after they released the World of Greyhawk box set that they _assigned_ places on Oerth where you might find these modules.  So people only started thinking they were actual Greyhawk modules after the fact.  And even further... none of the APs released _prior_ to this one with Acererak had anything in them that was actually from any other setting.  Yes, the ideas for these APs were inspired by previous modules that people attribute to Greyhawk... but nothing within any of the adventures actually were Greyhawk related.  So WotC never "stole" anything from that setting and gave it to the Realms to begin with.
> 
> ...




 Desert of Desolation is set in the Forgotten Realms, although admittedly when it was first published it was generic then added later, in the Raurin Desert as the ruins of an  Imaskari Survivor state.

 Then there is Undermountain, the Avatar Trilogy, and so on.


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## JesterOC (Sep 10, 2017)

Of the few forgotten Realms adventures I had what I recall most is that they had too much interference from high profile NPCs and those NPCs seemed to defy the rules.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Staffan (Sep 10, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> I mean, if anyone can name an actual classic Forgotten Realms module and what that module's central story is about... maybe that could eventually become the story basis for another AP down the line.




3e had the trilogy Shadowdale, Cormyr, and Anauroch (I might be confusing the order somewhat), which I and my friends only started playing. It had something to do with the church of Shar and the Shades of Netheril - possibly the stuff that sets the events that end in the Spellplague in motion.

The Bloodstone modules (H1-4) were moved to the Realms during their production, being set in Vaasa. I'm not entirely sure what they were about other than it involving a lot of mass combat (hello Battlesystem(tm)!) and culminating in going to the Abyss to fight Orcus himself.

But other than that, FR is fairly sparse on adventures. Historically, FR has been about two things:

1. Set up locations and organizations that are filled with story ideas, and let the DM work out the details.

2. Have NPCs perform epic deeds in novels that drive the setting's metaplot (mainly in the 2e era).


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## Stormdale (Sep 10, 2017)

Having just purchased it on D&D Beyond, and had a quick glance so far. It it looks interesting and am keen to incorporate it into my campaign asap. Plenty of stuff to mine for ideas in this one even if you don't run the whole thing.

Dwellers of the Forbidden City was my first, and still my favourite, module so will look at incorporating the original version into it and like the fact it is playing homage to the original. 

My main beefs? As with most of the new adventures (they are too big to call modules) is the introduction of new races for the sake it of. Grungs? They'll be replaced with the original Bullywugs in my game, I like the flavour of the Batari but will instead use the original Tasloi instead... and swap Chult for the Amedio Jungle region in Greyhawk.

Stormdale


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## SmokeyCriminal (Sep 10, 2017)

Mercule said:


> I'm afraid you're correct, which makes me sad. I, personally, feel that the semi-generic nature of D&D is one of its best traits and is probably the biggest reason why I still come back to it despite flirtations with other systems. It's always been the game system that best balanced both the complexity vs. ease of learning axis as well as my desire to create my own world while supporting me with default lore to fall back on and multiple example settings to mine. Coalescing around any given setting is a huge, huge negative, in my mind and will probably drive me away from D&D, in the end.
> 
> The fact that it's the Realms, which I love in D&D with the same passion as Clinton loves Trump in the White House, is just the icing on the cake.
> 
> I fully understand the financial incentive for WotC to morph the "D&D RPG" into the "Forgotten Realms RPG". I just don't like it. They probably have about six months to announce actual, formal support for another setting before I give up and find another system for my next campaign. I could ignore all the Realms stuff in 5E -- it's a mighty fine system -- but I want to be active in the community for whatever game I'm playing. If the conversation is always around the Realms and everyone is playing in the Realms, it just isn't any fun. I'm encouraged by the most recent UA poll, but we'll see.




Nathan Stewart the Senior Director of D&D has already confirmed that they will be doing other settings. It was during one the last Fireside Chat on Twitch. I don't know if they will do ALL of the other settings but during his answer he does mention Ebberon, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, and I think Darksun. He says the only thing that some people will be mad about is the cadence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6XqKdZZJKc

At 41:20

I really like these Fireside Chats with Nathan and I HIGHLY encourage everyone here to watch them live. Nathan will answer a lot of questions and be very straight forward and honest. The viewership is still very low (100-ish) So it is VERY likely that he will see and answer your question, and they do lots of giveaways for free swag which you have a decent chance to win (someone has already won twice). Also, they take suggestions and ideas seriously (someone asked why they didn't include two D20 dice in their sets considering the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic, and it seemed like Nathan liked the idea and would look into it). Finally, if more people watched the stream it will encourage Nathan to keep it going and make it a priority, which can only benefit us all here.


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## Sword of Spirit (Sep 10, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It has a lot of Realmslore in it. References to gods, old novels, Thay, and more. It's probably the most actual Realms in an adventure.




Well that's disappointing. I was considering getting it to set in Eberron, but if that's going to be a hassle and a half they may have unfortunately lost a sale.



The-Magic-Sword said:


> ... Barovia (which is in the Shadowfell).




Debatable. According to Chris Perkins, "Ravenloft [or Barovia, can't recall] is where it's always been." (Quote from memory.)

That would most likely put it in the Ethereal Plane, unless "always been" means "since 4e".

The DMG is also a bit vague. It says you can _reach_ such places from the Shadowfell, but stops short of saying they are _located _there.

Although the 5e DMG does commit the unpardonable crime of defining the Dark Powers as actual beings. That's like giving the Lady of Pain stats. (Or worse: killing off Drizzt.)


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## Jester David (Sep 10, 2017)

woodja said:


> For those asking (quite a few pages back) about playable Grung - they are (sort of) available already. (info here)
> 
> 
> The death curse is in effect within Chult.  If you die, you cannot be resurrected.  The only way to get your character back is to enlist a surrogate from the ones proved here on the WoTC website (don't know if this info is also in the book).
> ...




This product on the DMsGuild also contains modified lizardfolk and wilden:
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/220608/Return-of-the-Lizard-King?filters=45680_0_0_0_0_0


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## MonsterEnvy (Sep 10, 2017)

Stormdale said:


> Having just purchased it on D&D Beyond, and had a quick glance so far. It it looks interesting and am keen to incorporate it into my campaign asap. Plenty of stuff to mine for ideas in this one even if you don't run the whole thing.
> 
> Dwellers of the Forbidden City was my first, and still my favourite, module so will look at incorporating the original version into it and like the fact it is playing homage to the original.
> 
> ...




uhhh you do know that Grung are not a new race. They are a just a fairly obscure old race of Tree Frog people. I find them much more interesting then the toad bullywugs. Don't get why you want to replace them. The batari have always been in chult as well if I recall.


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## Demetrios1453 (Sep 10, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It references a lot of Chult. Much like how SKT referenced bits of pieces of the lore of the North. But more so as there are characters from novels set in Chult, references to what happened in Chult during the Spellplague, lots of Chult gods, and the like. Bits of it might be tricky to entirely work into Eberron. Even Acererak's tomb, which - spoilers - the gods of Chult are involved with.




Now I don't have the book yet (only the monsters from D&D Beyond), but if those are the Nine Trickster Gods, those are actually new as of this adventure. Before this point, Chult only had Ubtao as a deity (with Eshowdow/Shar as a minor undercurrent), along with your typical yuan-ti, goblin, etc deities.


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## Azzy (Sep 10, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No, I just don't think there are very many Realms-centric adventures out there to begin with.  Most Realms stuff has all been mainly setting material and gazetteer stuff, with most adventures made specifically for the Realms falling in the 'Living Realms' type of thing.  On top of that, Realms-cetric modules are all from like the mid '80s on... and all of these repurposed "classic" adventures that are being used for the 5E APs are the really old ones that came out before then back in the '70s and early '80s.  I mean, it's not like WotC is repurposing 2E or 3E generic adventures either.




Here's what I could dredge up on FR modules.


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## Mr. Wilson (Sep 10, 2017)

I went to pick it up today and the book was already sold out from my FLGS.  They were even surprised by how quickly it sold and they purchased 40 copies.  They said adventures normally don't sell this quickly.

I'll wait until next week to pick it up when they're stock comes back in.


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## Marandahir (Sep 10, 2017)

Undeserved Punishment and Heritage aren't up in the DM's Guild Adepts section, though the other 8 Day-1 DLC adventures are up.

The book itself is great. Fun mix of sandbox jungle adventure and death trap dungeon adventure.


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## The Hierophant (Sep 10, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> uhhh you do know that Grung are not a new race. They are a just a fairly obscure old race of Tree Frog people. I find them much more interesting then the toad bullywugs. Don't get why you want to replace them. The batari have always been in chult as well if I recall.




I certainly didn't know this. Bullywugs come from the Fiend Folio.  Where do Grungs originate?


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## JesterOC (Sep 10, 2017)

The Hierophant said:


> I certainly didn't know this. Bullywugs come from the Fiend Folio.  Where do Grungs originate?



I see it mentioned online as Greyhawk Adventures 1988. Never owned that book though.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Stormdale (Sep 10, 2017)

Re: Bullywugs. Not sure which came first Fiend Folio or Dwellers of the Forbidden city (both were 1981 and both had bullywugs).I recall the frog-folk Grippli in the AD&D MMII but have never bought any Chult related products so no idea of Grungs are from any of those in the 2E or later eras. 

I intend to run the adventure in the Amedio Jungle area of Greyhawk and use existing Greyhawk based monsters rather than newer versions of similar monsters where possible. I love what I've read so far but will be making plenty of changes to fit my campaign better, changing monsters will be one of them. 

Stormdale


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## Shasarak (Sep 10, 2017)

Tomb of Annihilation is here?  With all the excitement with Starfinder looks like this is one to pick up for Christmas.


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## Stormdale (Sep 10, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> I see it mentioned online as Greyhawk Adventures 1988. Never owned that book though.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk




Hey, you are right. I have Greyhawk adventures right here and never even noticed them- not that it has been used much. 

Stormdale


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## Echohawk (Sep 10, 2017)

JesterOC is correct that the grung's first appearance was in _Greyhawk Adventures_ (August 1998), closely followed by _MC5: Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Adventures Appendix_ (April 1990). Grung don't really have much of a history in the Realms prior to _Volo's Guide to Monsters_.


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## Azzy (Sep 10, 2017)

The Hierophant said:


> I certainly didn't know this. Bullywugs come from the Fiend Folio.  Where do Grungs originate?




Greyhawk Adventures

Never mind: Massively ninja'd


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## JesterOC (Sep 10, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Greyhawk Adventures
> 
> Never mind: Massively ninja'd




You might have been ninja'd but you brought more firepower (the link)


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## Jester David (Sep 10, 2017)

I much prefer the older and more classic grippli to the grung, which fill the D&D niche of small tree frog people. Only they're neutral rather than evil, which is a nice way of differentiating them from the toad bullywugs. And the grippli were in the MM2 for 1e and the _Monstrous Manual_ for 2nd Edition, plus actual adventures. So they have a little more heritage than the lame grungs.


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## Jester David (Sep 10, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> No, I just don't think there are very many Realms-centric adventures out there to begin with.  Most Realms stuff has all been mainly setting material and gazetteer stuff, with most adventures made specifically for the Realms falling in the 'Living Realms' type of thing.  On top of that, Realms-cetric modules are all from like the mid '80s on... and all of these repurposed "classic" adventures that are being used for the 5E APs are the really old ones that came out before then back in the '70s and early '80s.  I mean, it's not like WotC is repurposing 2E or 3E generic adventures either.





DEFCON 1 said:


> I mean, if anyone can name an actual classic Forgotten Realms module and what that module's central story is about... maybe that could eventually become the story basis for another AP down the line.



The catch is, Realms adventures fell into two camps: 
The first was the super generic adventures, as FR was taking over Greyhawk's place in the '90s as the location of generic adventures. 
The second was the "living" stuff you mention where events advance the world. The Avatar adventures. The Horde adventures. The Spellplague adventures. The Sundering adventures. 

The former tend to be less memorable. Just because they're competing with twenty years of older generic adventures. 
The latter don't make good APs since their stories already "happened". 

There are a few. _Ruins to Undermountain_ kinda counts, and its sequels/ revisits. It's the most likely as it was touched on in _Expedition to Undermountain_ in 3e and _Halls of Undermountain_ in 4e.
_Bloodstone Pass_ is another. _How the Mighty Are Fallen_ is neat but set in the past; could be fun as a time travel tale. There's the _Marco Volo_ adventures. _Pool of Radiance_ is an iconic name, being a video game and novel prior to a 3e adventure. 
_City of the Spiderqueen_ is likely too simmilar to _Out of the Abyss_ to do anytime soon, but a drow centric adventure with Lolth is needed.


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 10, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Acererak was only loosely in Greyhawk.
> His Tomb was always meant to be modular and fit in any world, and the references to Greyhawk in that module were weird as it predated the first Greyhawk product (the Folio) by two years.
> 
> I'm more annoyed he's a lich and not a demilich...




Normally, I'd agree because I remember those late-70's and early-80's modules were very campaign-neutral since the game was marketed more for homebrew playing. Unfortunately, right at the beginning of ToA on pg.6, it clearly states that Acererak's home world is Oerth.


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## Remathilis (Sep 10, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The catch is, Realms adventures fell into two camps:
> The first was the super generic adventures, as FR was taking over Greyhawk's place in the '90s as the location of generic adventures.
> The second was the "living" stuff you mention where events advance the world. The Avatar adventures. The Horde adventures. The Spellplague adventures. The Sundering adventures.
> 
> ...




Without dredging up too many "best adventures of all time" debates, most "setting-exclusive" modules rarely crack the all-time greats. For example,  I6 excluded, is there really an iconic Ravenloft adventure from the setting that could be counted as an all-time great? Or a Dark Sun one? Or a Spelljammer one or Eberron one? The only ones who might be able to vie for "setting-specific and classic" are Dragonlance's War of the Lance modules and Dead Gods from Planescape. 

When people are polled on the all-time classic modules, they tend  to name the ones from late 70's through mid-80's which either were retconned into Greyhawk (if AD&D) or Mystara/Known World (if Basic). Naming modern classics tends to pull from the 3e era, which was rooted in pseudo-hawk (using the Greyhawk gods, but none of the setting or geography, such as Sunless Citadel or Red Hand of Doom). None of those greats rely heavily on their setting and barely even define what world they are supposed to be on. Which is what helps makes them iconic; they don't tie you to a setting like the DL series or Avatar Trilogy or Grand Conjunction modules do.


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## FitzTheRuke (Sep 10, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> For those that have it, how does this adventure and its locations work as a sidequest source? I've got a homebrew campaign on the Sword Coast, and would be perfectly happy to ship my players (or, at least, their characters) down to Chult for a couple months to do a jungle themed exploration story. Will this book have useful stuff for that, or is it all laser-focused on the adventure storyline?




I haven't seen anyone answer you, so I will. IMO it would be really really easy to use this adventure as a Chult sourcebook and run whatever games you want to run there while entirely ignoring the overall storyline.

I'll probably do just that. (As well as run the story, too).


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 10, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I believe that particular boat has sailed.
> 
> To me it's clear they've concluded the game doesn't need multiple worlds, or it risks confusing future movie and toy customers, which is where the real money is.
> 
> ...




For movie and toy purposes, that is understandable. But if you are right, then WoTC shouldn't be putting out products like Dungeonolgy with that Volo's Guide to the Forgotten Realms in the back that mentions Kara-Tur, Zakahara, Greyhawk, and even Sigil. It also is frustrating to see something like Tales from the Yawning Portal, which had 3 of the updated adventures specifically defaulted to Greyhawk. Last, if WoTC is moving everything into the Realms, they should have never mentioned that the default setting is the D&D Multiverse in the core books.

I know many will disagree with me .... but sometimes WoTC reminds me of the Eric Cartman-type child who has the cool toys but won't allow Kyle to touch them because he can. I'm not saying I want the Realms completely wiped out of publication .... but how about a 1 and done campaign book in the vein of Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? Do one (and only 1) Greyhawk book like that. Same page count, same price point, I'll be more than happy to buy the campaign map and City of Greyhawk map from Mike Schley, and then continue to offer setting suggestions in their two main adventure books they do each year. Same thing with Planescape. Instead of saying everyone from all over the multiverse comes to The Yawning Portal ..... they could have done a 1 and done book on Sigil and the planes. Like I said about the Greyhawk suggestion, let me buy the Sigil map from Schley and do the same page count and price point as SCAG.

If those do well ..... that might even give them enough incentive to possibly do 1 and done books for Eberron and Dragonlance (although that might not work because Eberron is more fleshed out than Greyhawk and Dragonlance has three very detailed time periods available to play in).


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## Staffan (Sep 10, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Without dredging up too many "best adventures of all time" debates, most "setting-exclusive" modules rarely crack the all-time greats. For example,  I6 excluded, is there really an iconic Ravenloft adventure from the setting that could be counted as an all-time great? Or a Dark Sun one? Or a Spelljammer one or Eberron one? The only ones who might be able to vie for "setting-specific and classic" are Dragonlance's War of the Lance modules and Dead Gods from Planescape.




Well, a big reason for that is that the setting-specific adventures have a much smaller potential audience that can have fond memories of them, so in any vote they're at a severe disadvantage.

But I'll put up Dark Sun's Dragon's Crown adventure as the model of what a setting-specific adventure should be. It could not be used in any other setting, because its roots run so, so deep in the Dark Sun setting. For starters, the adventure is psionics-centered, with some people thinking that psionics are misused across the world, so they're using an ancient artifact to inhibit its use. Second, the adventure takes the PCs literally from one side of the setting to the other, and back again (and includes plenty of side adventures you can have along the way). You will have the PCs in a ruin below a raiding tribe's camp, in the arena of Urik, dealing with giants and travel across the Sea of Silt, exploring another ancient ruin there which sheds some light on the setting's history, then travel across the Ringing Mountains and dealing with halfling tribes, then with thri-kreen hordes driven crazy by the anti-psionic effect (because it affects insectoid minds differently), and finally a showdown in the actual Dragon's Crown citadel. All of these elements are deeply embedded in what the Dark Sun setting is about, and in its history. This is the model of what a setting-based adventure should be.


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## Remathilis (Sep 10, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> I know many will disagree with me .... but sometimes WoTC reminds me of the Eric Cartman-type child who has the cool toys but won't allow Kyle to touch them because he can. I'm not saying I want the Realms completely wiped out of publication .... but how about a 1 and done campaign book in the vein of Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? Do one (and only 1) Greyhawk book like that. Same page count, same price point, I'll be more than happy to buy the campaign map and City of Greyhawk map from Mike Schley, and then continue to offer setting suggestions in their two main adventure books they do each year. Same thing with Planescape. Instead of saying everyone from all over the multiverse comes to The Yawning Portal ..... they could have done a 1 and done book on Sigil and the planes. Like I said about the Greyhawk suggestion, let me buy the Sigil map from Schley and do the same page count and price point as SCAG.




Lets look at the Opportunity Cost of a GHAG. 

1. Right now, WotC's model is 2 APs + 1 Sourcebook. A GHAG would fill the role of the single sourcebook. Presumably, WotC would want to release an AP that coincides with the GHAG. So 2/3rds of that year's* releases would have to be related to Greyhawk related books for it to be cost-viable. 
2. The Adventurer's League is tightly tied to the current storyline of any given cycle, but it is heavily Realms-centric. A GHAG and GHAP wouldn't be usable to AL. They would be stuck with a terrible dilemma of allowing the existing FR-based AL characters into GH to play the GHAP and use the GHAG or disallowing any previous AL characters in the GHAP, meaning anyone wanting to play that season has to start with brand-new level 1 PCs. (It was a headache when AL tried this with Curse of  Strahd, btw). They could, of course, ignore the GHAG/GHAP and do there own Realm-centered thing, but since AL is primarily a marketing tool for WotC, I don't see how that helps sell product. 
3. Right Now, the Neverwinter MMO takes stuff from the current Storyline to incorporate into the game. A GHAP/GHAG would be unusable for new content. Like the AL, they'd have to convert it to the Realms anyway OR ignore it do there own thing. 
4. Right now, a DM who is running the Realms has no use for a GHAG, and a future GH DM would have no use for the SCAG. Why would WotC put out a  book that competes with another book it sells when it could put out a book that compliments it (like how XGtE and VGtM compliment SCAG).

Believe me, I thought I'd see an Eberron book by now myself, but I'm beginning to think that a full-hardcover book dedicated solely to a non-Realms setting alone is too much sacrifice for too little gain (IE the number of people who would/could not use it isn't less than the number of new people who it would attract). The more niche the setting (Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Eberron) the less people will buy it. Now, if WotC was to introduce a 4th book into the mix (say sometime in early summer) all bets are off, but for right now, when you only make 3 books a year, your best bet it to try to not limit who would buy it. 

* The sourcebook usually comes  out in Nov, APs in March and Sept. So either the Sept module is GHAP and there is a two-month gap before the setting book comes out OR the setting book comes out and then the spring AP is dedicated to GHAP, which leaves a 4 month gap of a setting with no AP to run with it. Again, WotC would have to change its release schedule (and thus, all its project deadlines) to make it work.


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## Remathilis (Sep 10, 2017)

Now, I can easily see a Planescape AP (esp in the Spring) with a chapter dedicated to Sigil (you can give an overview of Sigil in 20-30 pages, if DMG2 and Expedition to  Demonweb Pits are any indicator) and then fit a 10-level AP in with enough room for appendixes for new PC options (like bariaurs and githzerai races), monsters, and stuff. Staple a map of Sigil to the back (Cf CoS and ToA) and you have a solid Planescape product. 

(It helps that tieflings, aasimar, and genasi are already in 5e, and factions stopped being a thing since late 2e).


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## chibi graz'zt (Sep 10, 2017)

This book must be selling like hot-cakes, both FLGS' near me have sold out; guess I have to wait for general release! Who knew 5th edition sold so incredibly well?!?


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 10, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Now, I can easily see a Planescape AP (esp in the Spring) with a chapter dedicated to Sigil (you can give an overview of Sigil in 20-30 pages, if DMG2 and Expedition to  Demonweb Pits are any indicator) and then fit a 10-level AP in with enough room for appendixes for new PC options (like bariaurs and githzerai races), monsters, and stuff. Staple a map of Sigil to the back (Cf CoS and ToA) and you have a solid Planescape product.
> 
> (It helps that tieflings, aasimar, and genasi are already in 5e, and factions stopped being a thing since late 2e).




I've come to think the factions could be very nicely done with backgrounds, one for each. Their benefits really don't need to as strong as they were in 2e. Otherwise I think and hope you are right here - Sigil is an excellent candidate for an AP.


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 10, 2017)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I haven't seen anyone answer you, so I will. IMO it would be really really easy to use this adventure as a Chult sourcebook and run whatever games you want to run there while entirely ignoring the overall storyline.
> 
> I'll probably do just that. (As well as run the story, too).






JesterOC said:


> I have not read the vast majority of the book of course. But I would not say laser focused. However it seems that many small encounters have clues that hint to the big picture. As perkins said the story is designed to slowly unfold. From the little I have read it does look like it does that by using NPCs that you find along the way.
> 
> Given that, it looks OK for a side-quest source and a good jungle terrain source (just like Out of the Abyss was good if you plan to run adventures in the under-dark). But most likely a bit costly if that is all you are going to be using it for.




Thanks for the replies. Seems like a good option then.


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## Demetrios1453 (Sep 10, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Now, I can easily see a Planescape AP (esp in the Spring) with a chapter dedicated to Sigil (you can give an overview of Sigil in 20-30 pages, if DMG2 and Expedition to  Demonweb Pits are any indicator) and then fit a 10-level AP in with enough room for appendixes for new PC options (like bariaurs and githzerai races), monsters, and stuff. Staple a map of Sigil to the back (Cf CoS and ToA) and you have a solid Planescape product.
> 
> (It helps that tieflings, aasimar, and genasi are already in 5e, and factions stopped being a thing since late 2e).




Actually, I could see a Planescape AP as a September release, followed by a _Manual of the Planes_ type sourcebook (in the 5e style of having material for everyone) being the following November release. And given how they've mentioned the Great Modron March in several books, I wouldn't be surprised if that event doesn't play a role, if not being the focus, of the AP...


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## Staffan (Sep 10, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Actually, I could see a Planescape AP as a September release, followed by a _Manual of the Planes_ type sourcebook (in the 5e style of having material for everyone) being the following November release. And given how they've mentioned the Great Modron March in several books, I wouldn't be surprised if that event doesn't play a role, if not being the focus, of the AP...




Hmm. From what I can tell, the Great Modron March (the adventure) was about the March being about 190 years early. The current date in FR is about 130 years after the events of the adventure. Add a fudge factor on account of planar time dilation and FR being out of synch blah blah Spellplague/Sundering, and it could be time for the proper March.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 10, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Lets look at the Opportunity Cost of a GHAG.
> 
> 2. The Adventurer's League is



What's with the overblown concern for the AL? 

I'm sure WotC can publish an adventure about Ator the frikkin' Fighting Eagle and it's up to the AL to adapt its season. (They won't, _but not because of the AL._)


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 10, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> What's with the overblown concern for the AL?
> 
> I'm sure WotC can publish an adventure about Ator the frikkin' Fighting Eagle and it's up to the AL to adapt its season. (They won't, _but not because of the AL._)




Well, if you make extensive use of a public outreach program to help your game grow, why wouldn't that feature into your planning?


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 10, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Now, I can easily see a Planescape AP (esp in the Spring) with a chapter dedicated to Sigil (you can give an overview of Sigil in 20-30 pages, if DMG2 and Expedition to  Demonweb Pits are any indicator) and then fit a 10-level AP in with enough room for appendixes for new PC options (like bariaurs and githzerai races), monsters, and stuff. Staple a map of Sigil to the back (Cf CoS and ToA) and you have a solid Planescape product.
> 
> (It helps that tieflings, aasimar, and genasi are already in 5e, and factions stopped being a thing since late 2e).




I'm trying not to come off as argumentative, but I don't understand your points.
If adding a book like a Greyhawk Adventurer's Guide would be disruptive to AL and the video game .... then as you said, those entities should ignore the Greyhawk release. If those November releases are so important, how did the AL and Neverwinter function with just ToD, PotA, and the first half of OotA before those November supplements??

If Curse of Strahd was a headache for AL, then I think it will be safe to say that a Planescape adventure would cause the same problems and it shouldn't be done.

My comment about my gripe has kind of derailed this so I'll finish with this. I stand by what I said, they should do a 1 and done book. If the November releases are so important, then how about allowing Goodman Games to do the Greyhawk book? They are converting modules B1 and B2 to 5E to be released Sept. 30th. This way, there isn't a disruption to the main release schedule and those of us hungry for Greyhawk get the bone we've been begging for. Plus, there is a Greyhawk book for 5E and WoTC has little to no risk involved for that release.

Back on topic ....
I've read more Tomb of Annihilation and it just keeps getting better and better!


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## Quartz (Sep 10, 2017)

I've skipped a large number of pages, but are there suggestions for how to compensate characters who normally depend upon armour for the loss of that armour? Or are the encounters rebalanced to account for no armour?


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## JesterOC (Sep 10, 2017)

Quartz said:


> I've skipped a large number of pages, but are there suggestions for how to compensate characters who normally depend upon armour for the loss of that armour? Or are the encounters rebalanced to account for no armour?



Not that I saw. But at the same time the armor rules for traveling looked a bit forgiving. I am tempted to make heavy armor worse than medium armor. Instead medium and heavy just give you disadvantage on survival rolls. But only if you don't drink enough water. If you do drink enough I see no penalty.
But perhaps I missed something

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## JesterOC (Sep 11, 2017)

Page 89
Column 1, end of paragraph 6. Best name of a weapon EVA! 

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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

So far I haven't managed to get through the first chapter. This is primarily because I keep following the rabbit-hole of links (D&D Beyond) to read other sections which link to other sections.

I'd say I've only read about 10% of it, maybe less. If the other 90% is as good as this 10%, though, I'll be writing a 5/5 review.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

Quartz said:


> I've skipped a large number of pages, but are there suggestions for how to compensate characters who normally depend upon armour for the loss of that armour? Or are the encounters rebalanced to account for no armour?






JesterOC said:


> Not that I saw. But at the same time the armor rules for traveling looked a bit forgiving. I am tempted to make heavy armor worse than medium armor. Instead medium and heavy just give you disadvantage on survival rolls. But only if you don't drink enough water. If you do drink enough I see no penalty.
> But perhaps I missed something




Discussing that very thing here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?582133-SPOILERS-Running-Tomb-of-Annihilation-Discussion


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 11, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> So far I haven't managed to get through the first chapter. This is primarily because I keep following the rabbit-hole of links (D&D Beyond) to read other sections which link to other sections.
> 
> I'd say I've only read about 10% of it, maybe less. If the other 90% is as good as this 10%, though, I'll be writing a 5/5 review.




Do you like the D&D Beyond version?  Im interested in it. I mean how it is presented.


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## Remathilis (Sep 11, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> I'm trying not to come off as argumentative, but I don't understand your points.
> If adding a book like a Greyhawk Adventurer's Guide would be disruptive to AL and the video game .... then as you said, those entities should ignore the Greyhawk release. If those November releases are so important, how did the AL and Neverwinter function with just ToD, PotA, and the first half of OotA before those November supplements??




Not following. The AL initially ran under three banners, one based around playing the latest AP, one based around the Moonseas, and one for convention play. What happened was the first two weren't crossing over well; all the fun was happening in in the SC and the AL was wandering around the Moonsea. So they merged the two and started making the AL adventures more relevant to the APs starting with SKT. Now, Yawning Portal was a bit of odd duck (you mostly just played the YP adventures + a few side quests for thee of them) but they are back (and even stronger) to tying AL play to the APs (including PCs getting the Death Curse). 

If there was a Greyhawk (or insert setting here that isn't accessible to the Realms) they'd either completely ignore it (and do their own thing ala the Moonsea days), they'd have to suspend the Realms-based AL and everyone roll up new PCs for a season, or they'd take it port to the Realms anyway (thus ruining the point of the other world's uniqueness). 

Remember, AL isn't just RPGA/tournament play, its the primary focus for supplemental material. The Pax West/Fathom event module was AL legal. In Volo's Wake was an AL module to tie in with the new book, all the DM Adept modules are AL Legal. WotC is working a lot closer with the AL as an outreach and recruitment tool. 



HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> If Curse of Strahd was a headache for AL, then I think it will be safe to say that a Planescape adventure would cause the same problems and it shouldn't be done.




The problem with RL was you couldn't leave easily (and thus, you could only do RL adventures while "stuck" in Barovia). A Planescape/Sigil adventure could, more easily, allow PCs to come and go via Portals. 

The bigger question, do you want that kind of "come and go" of Faerunian adventurers wandering around Greyhawk? Dragonlance? Dark Sun? 



HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> My comment about my gripe has kind of derailed this so I'll finish with this. I stand by what I said, they should do a 1 and done book. If the November releases are so important, then how about allowing Goodman Games to do the Greyhawk book? They are converting modules B1 and B2 to 5E to be released Sept. 30th. This way, there isn't a disruption to the main release schedule and those of us hungry for Greyhawk get the bone we've been begging for. Plus, there is a Greyhawk book for 5E and WoTC has little to no risk involved for that release.




I'm cool with that! WotC outsourced some of the risk in 3e by giving RL to Arthaus and DL to Wiess's publishing company. GG could easily do GH. Or Kenzer (are they still around?) or Kobold Press, Sasquatch, Necromancer, Green Ronin, etc. The question is there enough will and finance to get those projects going? 



HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> Back on topic ....
> I've read more Tomb of Annihilation and it just keeps getting better and better!




I have to wait until my DM buys it to run it, and we just started the StarFinder AP. 


EDIT: to not derrail the thread further, I'll leave it at this. We'll agree to disagree.


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 11, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> I'm cool with that! WotC outsourced some of the risk in 3e by giving RL to Arthaus and DL to Wiess's publishing company. GG could easily do GH. Or Kenzer (are they still around?) or Kobold Press, Sasquatch, Necromancer, Green Ronin, etc. The question is there enough will and finance to get those projects going?




I do have one more thing to say (LOL)!

I own 1E's Waterdeep and the North, 2E's Free City of Greyhawk and City of Splendors box sets, and 3E's Waterdeep: City of Splendors book ..... and Green Ronin's Freeport book smokes them all in my opinion. Would love to see Green Ronin do a Free City of Greyhawk book!! It would be godly!

It's funny that you mentioned the 3.0 Ravenloft books and the 3.5 Dragonlance books. I have tons of those RL books and almost all of the DL 3.5 books. That is why I'd love to see WoTC outsource again, because in my opinion .... that outsourced material for 3.0/3.5 is golden!

At least we agree on the outsourcing.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Do you like the D&D Beyond version?  Im interested in it. I mean how it is presented.




There are positives and negatives about it. I went all in with a Legendary bundle* and Master Tier subscription so I have access to everything. That skews things a little in favour of DDB when considering the value of ToA on it, because I'm not locked out of any content and can use it as a total resource rather than a limited resource. However, every monster from Volo's that is used in ToA, is included as part of the purchase of ToA, so that's somewhat mitigated.

There are some issues with it. Some teething problems with links but they're being fixed up. My main gripe with the DDB format is how the menus work. There is an index page where you can go to individual chapters. On each of the chapter pages, however, the only way to access that index page in order to access other chapters, is to go back to it. That requires having it open as it's own tab at all times which is interminably frustrating in terms of navigating the document. Having said that, it's also available in the search bar so if you know what you're looking for, it's only a search away.

Otherwise, I find it fantastic. The maps alone are almost worth as much as the price of the book, with player and DM versions for almost every one of them. Plus artwork and individual monster entries. It's an entire book replacement for use at the table. As a DM's resource, I find it amazing and something I've been wanting for over 20 years.



*I did this because whatever issues I feel DDB currently has, I'm confident that the team will fix them and that they'll consistently and constantly work to make DDB better.


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## vpuigdoller (Sep 11, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> There are positives and negatives about it. I went all in with a Legendary bundle* and Master Tier subscription so I have access to everything. That skews things a little in favour of DDB when considering the value of ToA on it, because I'm not locked out of any content and can use it as a total resource rather than a limited resource. However, every monster from Volo's that is used in ToA, is included as part of the purchase of ToA, so that's somewhat mitigated.
> 
> There are some issues with it. Some teething problems with links but they're being fixed up. My main gripe with the DDB format is how the menus work. There is an index page where you can go to individual chapters. On each of the chapter pages, however, the only way to access that index page in order to access other chapters, is to go back to it. That requires having it open as it's own tab at all times which is interminably frustrating in terms of navigating the document. Having said that, it's also available in the search bar so if you know what you're looking for, it's only a search away.
> 
> ...




Thank you this very helpful!


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## LordEntrails (Sep 11, 2017)

If you want to know what I think of the Fantasy Grounds conversion/version of ToA, read the review, ToA on Fantasy Grounds.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 11, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Thank you this very helpful!




I agree with the Dangerous Koala, DDB is not perfect but it is the best book replacement for gaming I have seen.


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## Galendril (Sep 11, 2017)

Stormdale said:


> Having just purchased it on D&D Beyond, and had a quick glance so far. It it looks interesting and am keen to incorporate it into my campaign asap. Plenty of stuff to mine for ideas in this one even if you don't run the whole thing.
> 
> Dwellers of the Forbidden City was my first, and still my favourite, module so will look at incorporating the original version into it and like the fact it is playing homage to the original.
> 
> ...




Actually, grung were originally a Greyhawk monster.  They first appeared in Greyhawk Adventures.


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## Galendril (Sep 11, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> There are positives and negatives about it. I went all in with a Legendary bundle* and Master Tier subscription so I have access to everything. That skews things a little in favour of DDB when considering the value of ToA on it, because I'm not locked out of any content and can use it as a total resource rather than a limited resource. However, every monster from Volo's that is used in ToA, is included as part of the purchase of ToA, so that's somewhat mitigated.
> 
> There are some issues with it. Some teething problems with links but they're being fixed up. My main gripe with the DDB format is how the menus work. There is an index page where you can go to individual chapters. On each of the chapter pages, however, the only way to access that index page in order to access other chapters, is to go back to it. That requires having it open as it's own tab at all times which is interminably frustrating in terms of navigating the document. Having said that, it's also available in the search bar so if you know what you're looking for, it's only a search away.
> 
> ...




When I view on DDB on my iPad, if I turn it into landscape 'mode', the index stays on the left.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

Galendril said:


> When I view on DDB on my iPad, if I turn it into landscape 'mode', the index stays on the left.




For the entire book, or just for the chapter you're currently in?


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## mserabian (Sep 11, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> For the entire book, or just for the chapter you're currently in?





Just the chapter you're in... at least on my ipad!

mal


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## Galendril (Sep 11, 2017)

mserabian said:


> Just the chapter you're in... at least on my ipad!
> 
> mal




That's true, but there's an option to go 'Back to Top' and from there can click one other link to take you back to the Table of Contents.  It's two clicks, but still not bad IMO.


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## Warmaster Horus (Sep 11, 2017)

Love the map but is there a legend that says what kind of terrain each hex-depiction is supposed to be?  There are terrain-dependent encounter charts that reference various hex-types but no info on the maps themselves as to what each hex-depiction is supposed to be.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 11, 2017)

Anyone have the ddm guild products? I like that the thread is about this again, and not pages of discussing stuff from the past, over and over and over


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## Gleep Wurp (Sep 11, 2017)

my thoughts SPOILERS

1. was noticing it was about 42 hexes to [sblock]Omu[/sblock]. at 1 hex/day, 3 encounters checks = 126 checks. With a 20% chance of an encounter (16+ on a d20), that's about 25 random encounters just between the Port and the first plot related location. 

2. It was unexpected to me that Chult is kind of a Walking Dead location where most of the population in the jungles has been zombified.  And how the living treat the dead in one of the random encounters was unexpected... 
[sblock]Cannibal chultans eating dead zombies![/sblock]

3. I like the design of the Grung, and the grung city has a rather amusing side-quest. I'm disappointed I can't find really good miniatures to resemble the grung. (there are Medium sized frog people from various places in 28mm, but not Small. And not Cute)

4. Looking at some of the ToA official minis, I'm very disappointed in the quality (been away from DDM for a while: even to repaint them the sculpts look mushy)


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## ShadoWWW (Sep 11, 2017)

Gleep Wurp: Try toad miniature From Talisman 4th rev.  Edition board game. ;-)


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 11, 2017)

For those that bought 'special edition' book in store, what's on poster map? One side is player's map of Chult, what's on the other?
I bought Beyond version and impressed with it so far, might cancel Amazon pre order of book if poster map is nothing special. I didn't end up using the one in CoS that much after all.


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## JesterOC (Sep 11, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> For those that bought 'special edition' book in store, what's on poster map? One side is player's map of Chult, what's on the other?
> I bought Beyond version and impressed with it so far, might cancel Amazon pre order of book if poster map is nothing special. I didn't end up using the one in CoS that much after all.



The other side is the DMs version
I do plan on letting the players draw their path on the physical map.

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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 11, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> The other side is the DMs version
> I do plan on letting the players draw their path on the physical map.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk




That's it . . ? No other maps just island?


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## JesterOC (Sep 11, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> That's it . . ? No other maps just island?



That's it

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## JesterOC (Sep 11, 2017)

BTW to my knowledge there is no special edition for this, only for xanthar's guide. Which I will be advoiding because I like the look of the standard version much more

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## Gleep Wurp (Sep 11, 2017)

ShadoWWW said:


> Gleep Wurp: Try toad miniature From Talisman 4th rev.  Edition board game. ;-)



Not anthro enough


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## Jester David (Sep 11, 2017)

The dice look a little disappointing:

View attachment 88433

Left is the advertisement. Right is the actual physical product.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 11, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The dice look a little disappointing:
> 
> View attachment 88433
> 
> Left is the advertisement. Right is the actual physical product.




Mine look like that ad.  I.e., they're green.  Maybe they are different in each box?


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## JesterOC (Sep 11, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> Mine look like that ad.  I.e., they're green.  Maybe they are different in each box?



Is the box green as well? Green box or no dice for me.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Jester David (Sep 11, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> Is the box green as well? Green box or no dice for me.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk




Every actual picture of the tin I have seen makes it look silver/metallic and not at all green.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 11, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The dice look a little disappointing:
> 
> View attachment 88433
> 
> Left is the advertisement. Right is the actual physical product.




The picture on the right looks like the dice were photographed in black and white. Not sure why the tin lid looks off, unless it is a counterfeit.

Edit: yeah, I cannot find any description anywhere of the tin that says it is really green. I wonder if both the dice and tin are glow-in-the-dark and only show green in that situation?


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

Galendril said:


> That's true, but there's an option to go 'Back to Top' and from there can click one other link to take you back to the Table of Contents.  It's two clicks, but still not bad IMO.



As I said, you have to go back to the index page. That is annoying. Any extra clicks are inconvenient if you're having to use it as a constantly sourced reference.



Warmaster Horus said:


> Love the map but is there a legend that says what kind of terrain each hex-depiction is supposed to be?  There are terrain-dependent encounter charts that reference various hex-types but no info on the maps themselves as to what each hex-depiction is supposed to be.



Not that I've seen. It's easy enough to judge, though. I mean, you either say you're on the beach or not, for a hex that has beach in it. You're not necessarily "in a hex", you're in a location _within_ the hex, and that can be whatever seems appropriate to the DM at the time.



Jester David said:


> The dice look a little disappointing:



If that's what the dice actually look like, I'll be returning mine. That is _not_ what was advertised and most definitely _not_ worth the premium price.


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## Galendril (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> As I said, you have to go back to the index page. That is annoying. Any extra clicks are inconvenient if you're having to use it as a constantly sourced reference.




No more difficult than flipping through a physical book.  I would argue it's actually easier.


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 12, 2017)

Gleep Wurp said:


> Not anthro enough




They're not that close, but Games Workshop Skinks can be had for really cheap and they're small reptilian people. It's probably worth a shot just for the fact that you'll be able to get a dozen dirt cheap.


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## Vampyr3 (Sep 12, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The dice look a little disappointing:
> 
> View attachment 88433
> 
> Left is the advertisement. Right is the actual physical product.




Hum, wonder if they are indeed sliver they have all this time been promoting them as green? same for box.. If that's the case, I might have to cancel my amazon pre order...


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Galendril said:


> No more difficult than flipping through a physical book.




D&D Beyond is meant to make things easier as a tabletop replacement for flipping through books. The argument that it's "no more difficult" than flipping through a physical book is ridiculous and defeats the point of buying D&D Beyond in the first place.


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## EthanSental (Sep 12, 2017)

Metallic with a green hue on the tin

View attachment 88452


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## Vampyr3 (Sep 12, 2017)

EthanSental said:


> Metallic with a green hue on the tin
> 
> View attachment 88452




Wow, yes I'm canceling my Amazon order.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> D&D Beyond is meant to make things easier as a tabletop replacement for flipping through books. The argument that it's "no more difficult" than flipping through a physical book is ridiculous and defeats the point of buying D&D Beyond in the first place.




But I feel that DDB is much easier. Even though having to go back to the index page isn't ideal, having multiple (including, for the moment until fixed, index) tabs open is a lot easier than sitcky bookmarks in your book and is much, much quicker when you want to look at a dozen things at once. Which is often at the table as DM. The links in the text make DDB so much better than books, linking to spells etc, just so useful. Being able to print high res DM and /or player maps and handouts is a world apart from photocopying books. 

On DDB you also get a very useful character builder, and I enjoy making PCs for the hell of it as a permanent DM, and the ability to parse things suck as monsters by tags is vastly beyond what you get from books for prep. And unlike Fantasy Gournds (which is an awesome VTT, don;t get me wrong) I can sit down and read books with my iPad, which is a real pleasure on the move.

So I think, even as it stands, DDB is much better (and cheaper as long as you already have the right device) way to get your 5E books. And, as you've mentioned previously  and I'm in the same boat, it's improving all the time and just out of BETA. I'm only saying this not for arguments sake but because those who have not used (no reason why though, wen a free account gives you everything in the basic rules) shouldn't be put off that it's not good. A laptop at the table with DDB is an awesome tool for the DM.


----------



## EthanSental (Sep 12, 2017)

I like the tin and dice overall, not like the marble green in the ad- nice enough for me though.  my group had no clue as to Acererak and him being in Chult until I had Jurassic World on the tv when they walked in, found an Acererak hidden in the room and the dice tin as well.  Only 1 of the 4 players picked up since he did Tomb of horrors back in the day.  6 months ago I had the big fold out map of tomb of horrors on the wall in my house which caused some panic, took it down so out of sight out of mind.


----------



## Fildrigar (Sep 12, 2017)

chibi graz'zt said:


> This book must be selling like hot-cakes, both FLGS' near me have sold out; guess I have to wait for general release! Who knew 5th edition sold so incredibly well?!?




Huh. In spite of all the hate here for Forgotten Realms, Wizards must be doing something right. Almost like people who frequent forums aren't the center of the RPG world. Weird.


----------



## Fildrigar (Sep 12, 2017)

HonorBoundSamurai632 said:


> I do have one more thing to say (LOL)!
> 
> I own 1E's Waterdeep and the North, 2E's Free City of Greyhawk and City of Splendors box sets, and 3E's Waterdeep: City of Splendors book ..... and Green Ronin's Freeport book smokes them all in my opinion. Would love to see Green Ronin do a Free City of Greyhawk book!! It would be godly!
> 
> ...




I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Pramas ( one of the owners of Green Ronin ) is a huuuuuge Greyhawk fan. I'm sure he'd love to get the license for it from Wizards. Not sure if Wizards would give it to him though.


----------



## Shroomy (Sep 12, 2017)

Fildrigar said:


> I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Pramas ( one of the owners of Green Ronin ) is a huuuuuge Greyhawk fan. I'm sure he'd love to get the license for it from Wizards. Not sure if Wizards would give it to him though.




There's no way WotC will license Greyhawk (or any setting for that matter IMO). They're mining and referencing that stuff all over the place.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 12, 2017)

Staffan said:


> Hmm. From what I can tell, the Great Modron March (the adventure) was about the March being about 190 years early. The current date in FR is about 130 years after the events of the adventure. Add a fudge factor on account of planar time dilation and FR being out of synch blah blah Spellplague/Sundering, and it could be time for the proper March.




So, just to follow up on this, someone on reddit is stating that there's a mundane item that's actually a Sigil gate-key to Arcadia near the end of the adventure (I'll confirm once I can get my hands on the book, or if someone else can confirm for me). That not only hints at an upcoming planar adventure, but since Arcadia would be the first plane (outside the Outlands) where the March would go, that also seems to point towards a Great Modron March adventure...


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## JesterOC (Sep 12, 2017)

Vampyr3 said:


> Wow, yes I'm canceling my Amazon order.




I think I might as well. The green tint is very light. I had expected a green powered coat, or something matte green in color which would allow for nice detail revealing shadows across the face.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> So, just to follow up on this, someone on reddit is stating that there's a mundane item that's actually a Sigil gate-key to Arcadia near the end of the adventure (I'll confirm once I can get my hands on the book, or if someone else can confirm for me). That not only hints at an upcoming planar adventure, but since Arcadia would be the first plane (outside the Outlands) where the March would go, that also seems to point towards a Great Modron March adventure...



[sblock]The spectacles are also a gate key that opens a portal in the planar city of Sigil. The portal is a two-way door to the plane of Arcadia.[/sblock]
From the book. That sentence seems as clear as mud though.



JesterOC said:


> I think I might as well. The green tint is very light. I had expected a green powered coat, or something matte green in color which would allow for nice detail revealing shadows across the face.



This is what I feared. The preview was an obvious digital image and yet I couldn't get any information on what they actually looked like until they came out. Now that I've seen them, I've cancelled my order. These are not the premium dice in a nice green tin you were looking for.


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## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> D&D Beyond is meant to make things easier as a tabletop replacement for flipping through books. The argument that it's "no more difficult" than flipping through a physical book is ridiculous and defeats the point of buying D&D Beyond in the first place.




To be fair, you did edit out where they said it's better. 

And in my experience with it so far, when first reading an adventure, I did flip back and forth with the index a lot, but that flipping was far easier with DDB than a physical book because I could jump straight to the section I want. Also, more importantly, *in actual play*, I did not have to flip at all. We are typically only focused on that one section/encounter, so there has been no need to flip to other sections at all. Plus monsters and NPCs are easily hyperlinked regardless of whether they are from that adventure book, that book's appendix, the Monster Manual, or Volo's Guide. With physical books, I usually have to print off monster and NPC stats to avoid flipping through a whole stack of books. That is a tremendous benefit.

So in first getting familiar with an adventure DDB is somewhat more useful, and in actual play (which matters more to me), it has been incredibly useful and far superior to using physical books.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

kenmarable said:


> To be fair, you did edit out where they said it's better.




What?


----------



## Warmaster Horus (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Not that I've seen. It's easy enough to judge, though. I mean, you either say you're on the beach or not, for a hex that has beach in it. You're not necessarily "in a hex", you're in a location _within_ the hex, and that can be whatever seems appropriate to the DM at the time.




The map is beautiful but lacking a proper legend makes determining what the light brown and dark brown forest hexes are.  I assume the green forest hexes are Jungle.  Do the other colors refer to different kinds of jungle?  Or is it elevation?  Hard to tell.


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## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> What?




It's not a big deal.  Either DDB is worth it for you or not, but just to clarify what I said...

Galendril said:


Galendril said:


> No more difficult than flipping through a physical book.  I would argue it's actually easier.




And then you replied:


dropbear8mybaby said:


> Galendril said:
> 
> 
> > No more difficult than flipping through a physical book.
> ...




Sure, Galendril didn't elaborate on how they thought it was easier, but the flow of it sort of felt like this:



			
				Person A said:
			
		

> Oranges are no worse than apples. I would argue that oranges are actually more nutritious.






			
				Person B said:
			
		

> Person A said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You were calling them out for saying DDB isn't any easier than physical books when they actually specifically said they thought DDB was easier than physical books. You just didn't quote that sentence. (I suppose Galendril could have added that sentence afterwards, but I think posts are labeled when they are edited.)

But, like I said, I just wanted to clarify my comment since there was confusion. I, personally, find DDB is significantly easier to use than physical books, especially with adventures in actual play and tried to explain why. If it's not easier for you in actual play, at least the developers are very open to feedback. Maybe there is a way to make it more useful to you. *shrug*


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## Galendril (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> D&D Beyond is meant to make things easier as a tabletop replacement for flipping through books. The argument that it's "no more difficult" than flipping through a physical book is ridiculous and defeats the point of buying D&D Beyond in the first place.




I also said "I would argue it's actually easier."  I guess you like selectively quoting people to make yourself look superior.


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## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

Galendril said:


> I also said "I would argue it's actually easier."  I guess you like selectively quoting people to make yourself look superior.




Selective quoting can be annoying, but I don't think this is an issue worth elevating the spite-o-meter over.  

It's tangential to the thread anyways, so... uh... back to the topic, anyone start actually playing Tomb of Annihilation yet? Sadly my group voted to do Out of the Abyss instead (although that one is pretty cool, and we haven't played it yet) and wanted to wait to hear what opinions were of ToA.


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## EthanSental (Sep 12, 2017)

We started in Chult with our Saturday session, picked up the book Friday from my game store.  Did some of the encounters with the merchant princes and guide selection and headed down the Soshenstar river to Camp Vengeance. They are looking for a cure as well a faction member from the Lord's Alliance that had went into the jungle a couple 10 days before.  One character has been raised from the dead and is down 20 HP from his total (8th level fighter).  They were trying to get to an old temple ruin as that was where the previous faction member was using as a spear head location into Chult....hence the picture I posted earlier in the thread of the ziggurat and the T-rex as a cliff hanger for next session.


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## JesterOC (Sep 12, 2017)

Most of my group is excited to finish curse of Strahd and jump into Chult.
They just killed most of Strahd's minions in a massive fight during Strahd's wedding to Ireena.
They are low on most everything but Strahd is planning on turning Ireena into a full vampire. So we shall see what happens. Good chance next session will be the last.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 12, 2017)

Really enjoying first read through (Beyond version - export to PDF is sweet), up to Chapter 3. 

Chapter 2 is stuffed with ideas, hooks, encounters, some with a real quirky vibe that I think is fantastic (Orolunga, Wreck of the Star Goddess, and Yellyark  are my favorites so far). Some great NPC's as well!

It's got a different feel to it, so far so good.


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## Stormdale (Sep 12, 2017)

Started last night on another adventure. 2 pcs started losing 1 hp per day. Bailed on adventure to head back to town to get some advice from local clergy as to why they were losing hps.  They thought it had to do with some kind of cursed magic item but learned people who'd been raised were all wasting away. Were pointed in direction of a local sage and met Syndra, learned more about things and headed south via a teleport. 

RPed sights and sounds in city, met merchant prince then headed to local taverns trawling for rumours. Next week they will get a guide and head inland. 

Players very happy with this unexpected change in campaign focus. I don't usually start the adventures straight away, usually just mine them for ideas/ locations to incorporate into ongoing campaign but as we'd just finished a major adventure last week the timing was perfect and intend to run the entire thing. My guys range for 4th-9th level (2 new pcs started this week after one retired and another died) so will be heading them towards Omu pretty quickly and get the lower characters up a level or two on the way... once they've chosen a guide.

Have found using the D&D Beyond version at my table much easier than having the actual books too. 

Stormdale


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 13, 2017)

kenmarable said:


> It's not a big deal.  Either DDB is worth it for you or not, but just to clarify what I said...



You said I edited something that changed what I was saying. I'm asking what it was that did that? It's a big deal to me if you're calling me out on something.



kenmarable said:


> But, like I said, I just wanted to clarify my comment since there was confusion. I, personally, find DDB is significantly easier to use than physical books, especially with adventures in actual play and tried to explain why. If it's not easier for you in actual play, at least the developers are very open to feedback. Maybe there is a way to make it more useful to you. *shrug*



DDB is easier to use than books, when taken as a whole. My argument was that by not having the index available at all times in every chapter, and therefore requiring that you make multiple clicks in order to navigate the entirety of a document, that, when considered in isolation, saying that having to do those multiple clicks is no more difficult than flipping books, defeats the purpose and point of DDB in the first place. There's no reason why the entire index can't be included in every chapter to make navigation of the whole book easier. Those multiple clicks add up over a session.


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## mach1.9pants (Sep 13, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Really enjoying first read through (Beyond version - export to PDF is sweet), up to Chapter 3.
> 
> Chapter 2 is stuffed with ideas, hooks, encounters, some with a real quirky vibe that I think is fantastic (Orolunga, Wreck of the Star Goddess, and Yellyark  are my favorites so far). Some great NPC's as well!
> 
> It's got a different feel to it, so far so good.




I'm into Chap 2 now too, enjoying it, for sure.

What do you mean by export to PDF function?


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## Jester David (Sep 13, 2017)

Getting back to the OP. What do I think?

Having spent the last weekend shotgunnng the book (and writing my review) I know what I think now. It's easily become my favourite of the storyline adventures. I juts want to gush over it. 
And I'm *not* a fan of the original, and was super cynical about a return of Acererak.


----------



## JesterOC (Sep 13, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Getting back to the OP. What do I think?
> 
> Having spent the last weekend shotgunnng the book (and writing my review) I know what I think now. It's easily become my favourite of the storyline adventures. I juts want to gush over it.
> And I'm *not* a fan of the original, and was super cynical about a return of Acererak.



Agreed. While I liked curse of Strahd and abyss, this feels the most free and diverse. The objective seems more clear (kill Strahd might sound clear, but honestly it seems my players feel that escaping without killing him would be just as interesting). This seems to be more personal. Though it would be even more personal if the clock was ticking on the PCs as well, just not previously raised persons.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 13, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Really enjoying first read through (Beyond version - export to PDF is sweet), up to Chapter 3.






Sqn Cdr Flashheart said:


> I'm into Chap 2 now too, enjoying it, for sure.




You people read very quickly. I've only just finished chapter one. Having said that, I keep clicking on DDB links and getting lost down the rabbit-hole, so I've probably read about another 10% of the book just because of that 



Sqn Cdr Flashheart said:


> What do you mean by export to PDF function?



Browser print page maybe?


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 13, 2017)

Sqn Cdr Flashheart said:


> I'm into Chap 2 now too, enjoying it, for sure.
> 
> What do you mean by export to PDF function?




Adobe Acrobat Standard DC - right click & can convert web page to PDF, then edit, comment, highlight, organize, etc as I see fit.


----------



## chibi graz'zt (Sep 13, 2017)

Fildrigar said:


> Huh. In spite of all the hate here for Forgotten Realms, Wizards must be doing something right. Almost like people who frequent forums aren't the center of the RPG world. Weird.




Yeah all the FR hate is one reason I tend to avoid most forums here; I just stick to D&D Beyond and Candlekeep forums. I completely agree that WotC is delivering something that is selling better than any Paizo PF or SF products; definitely proves that 5e is more popular than ever; Im part of a couple of social media pages where folks are sharing their newfound love for D&D.

I was, however, able to pick up the new DM screen, (aptly named 'Reincarnated'). I want to say it is the best DM screen for this edition by far; you can tell that WotC yet again listened to our feedback; genius.


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## LordEntrails (Sep 13, 2017)

If you care to share your opinion on ToA, you could write a review...
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?582712-Tomb-of-Annihilation


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## SkidAce (Sep 13, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Really enjoying first read through (Beyond version - export to PDF is sweet), up to Chapter 3.




export to pdf?


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 13, 2017)

I wasn't planning on getting this, but all buzz made me want to check it out.  I did and decided to buy.  I have only skimmed it so far, but here are a couple of quick thoughts:

1) Acererak is a lot tougher than a standard lich.  I think he is closer to what people think of when they think of liches.

2) The atropal is interesting.  I would have probably given it innate spellcasting, but it has some interesting abilities that could be troublesome.

3) Didn't realize we would be getting a statblock for Volo

4) The pull out map is nice, I didn't realize it came with one.

5) I don't like that all the monsters from VGtM that are in the adventure are reprinted here.  I wish they had used that space differently.  Personally, I think it is OK to assume you need to own VGtM and the MM, but I know others will disagree.

6) Glad to see the nine gods are "false gods," I was wondering how A could shackle nine gods.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Sep 13, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Adobe Acrobat Standard DC - right click & can convert web page to PDF, then edit, comment, highlight, organize, etc as I see fit.




Ah ha, I am well aware of those functions (worked in IT) but I thought I had missed a DDB function some where.


----------



## chibi graz'zt (Sep 13, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> I wasn't planning on getting this, but all buzz made me want to check it out.  I did and decided to buy.  I have only skimmed it so far, but here are a couple of quick thoughts:
> 
> 1) Acererak is a lot tougher than a standard lich.  I think he is closer to what people think of when they think of liches.
> 
> ...




Yeah, myself and many others on a budget disagree with your #5

;-)


----------



## ddaley (Sep 13, 2017)

I have the Volo Guide (in print), but do like that the creatures are reprinted.  That would just be another book that I need to drag out (and purchase on D&D Beyond).  I will eventually purchase Volo's Guide on D&D Beyond anyways, but don't want to do that now.



chibi graz'zt said:


> Yeah, myself and many others on a budget disagree with your #5
> 
> ;-)


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 13, 2017)

chibi graz'zt said:


> Yeah, myself and many others on a budget disagree with your #5
> 
> ;-)




I understand (and I too am on a budget), but it takes up a lot of space in the book (or least it feels like it does - 1/4 of the book is appendices), that I feel could add more to the adventure.  Of course I haven't read it yet - so maybe it is pages well spent.


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 13, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I have the Volo Guide (in print), but do like that the creatures are reprinted.  That would just be another book that I need to drag out (and purchase on D&D Beyond).  I will eventually purchase Volo's Guide on D&D Beyond anyways, but don't want to do that now.




I definitely see the value with DDB, but in print it is a lot of extra pages.


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 13, 2017)

Interesting bit #7:  The adventure is for PCs 1-11, yet the BBEG is CR 23.  Instead of making Acererak weaker (like RoT & OotA), they give you a mechanism to buff the PCs and a way to end the fight early.  I like both.


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 14, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> Interesting bit #7:  The adventure is for PCs 1-11, yet the BBEG is CR 23.  Instead of making Acererak weaker (like RoT & OotA), they give you a mechanism to buff the PCs and a way to end the fight early.  I like both.



Interesting. Now, what happens if this mechanism isn't available... 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## JesterOC (Sep 14, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Interesting. Now, what happens if this mechanism isn't available...
> ]




They die?


----------



## CapnZapp (Sep 14, 2017)

JesterOC said:


> They die?



You'd think that, but then you realize what monsters Dave uses to throw at his player characters... 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 14, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Interesting. Now, what happens if this mechanism isn't available...
> 
> Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app




Well, the option to end the fight early, Acererak doesn't fight to the death (as described in the adventure), is always available if the DM wants to use it.


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 14, 2017)

Observation #8:  I don't see any way that the trial of the octagon (room #76) is not a TPK for my group.  There is no way they figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap (and I don't see how they can survive the trap).  Did I miss something? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this room?


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 14, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> Observation #8:  I don't see any way that the trial of the octagon (room #76) is not a TPK for my group.  There is no way they figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap (and I don't see how they can survive the trap).  Did I miss something? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this room?




Not sure about your gang, but suggest you'll have more than a year to figure it out! I can't believe the amount of stuff in the adventure, unless your group is jumping right to the end. The are DEX saves, and the bodies of one or more of the PC's can clog the trap so it doesn't work...


----------



## dave2008 (Sep 14, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Not sure about your gang, but suggest you'll have more than a year to figure it out! I can't believe the amount of stuff in the adventure, unless your group is jumping right to the end.




Well, I am not personally likely to run it, so I was just speculating



HawaiiSteveO said:


> The are DEX saves, and the bodies of one or more of the PC's can clog the trap so it doesn't work...




Dex save is only for those on near the lectern, and, though the trap doesn't say to, I would require and athletics check to hold on as well.  The body clog is just a nasty idea - thank you for sharing


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## Nebulous (Sep 14, 2017)

I just noticed that on Mike Schley's website that the maps for Tomb won't be on sale until December.  This isn't necessarily a bad a thing, the campaign is a year long at least, but anyone know why the sales for the maps don't coincide with the release of the adventure?


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 15, 2017)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Chapter 2 is stuffed with ideas, hooks, encounters, some with a real quirky vibe that I think is fantastic (Orolunga, Wreck of the Star Goddess, and Yellyark  are my favorites so far). Some great NPC's as well!



Yes, the amount of flavour and detail in this book is astounding. Incredibly inspiring and is making me really want to run it.



Nebulous said:


> I just noticed that on Mike Schley's website that the maps for Tomb won't be on sale until December.  This isn't necessarily a bad a thing, the campaign is a year long at least, but anyone know why the sales for the maps don't coincide with the release of the adventure?



From Mike:



> P.S. Mark your calendar and remember the date December 8th when I will be releasing my entire collection of hi-res bundled maps from Tomb of Anihillation. I'd love to offer them today but alas I must wait. The gods of gaming are fickle.




My guess is that he wasn't allowed due to some sort of licensing arrangement with the various digital platforms.

Whatever the case, it's unfortunate because Mike's maps are higher resolution, higher DPI and quality so even if you have a lesser version, they're still worth getting.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 15, 2017)

So, finally got it yesterday, and I'm really enjoying reading through this adventure. I love that they took a unique setting (quite distinct from your normal Sword Coast-esque typical fantasy location) and just went all out in embracing its quirks and differences. Most, if not all, of the locations and NPCs are really well fleshed out and interesting, and should make for a lot of good adventuring and role playing. I really hope this sets the stage for using more atypical settings for adventures in the future...

My group is going to love the tie-in to SKT, having fought Jarl Storvald and knowing what his goal was. When they get surprised by a group of frost giants, of all things, crashing through the jungle, or meet up with Artus Cimber, they'll certainly enjoy the connection to the previous adventure. 

But man, that final dungeon, even after only having quickly scanned it - that's going to be a real meat grinder in the mode of the original Tomb of Horrors, isn't it? They weren't kidding about this being tougher adventure than usual!

I can't wait to finish reading it, and then running it. My group have all agreed to wait until November and the release of XGtE before starting this since we don't want people wanting to switch to a new character type when the latter book comes out while in the middle of this. I already have a player planning on creating a kobold Indiana Jones using the archeologist background in the adventure...


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## CapnZapp (Sep 15, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> My guess is that he wasn't allowed due to some sort of licensing arrangement with the various digital platforms.



This is my guess too.

ToA really is the first module where digital platforms have come into prominence, and part of the offering is the same maps he sells. So it seems plausible they widened the window where his maps remain unavailable and you need to subscribe to Beyond et al to get them digitally.


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## ArwensDaughter (Sep 15, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> This is my guess too.
> 
> ...and you need to subscribe to Beyond et al to get them digitally.




Just a nit picky correction: you don't need to subscribe to DDB to get the maps, rather you need to make a onetime purchase to get them in DDB.  The distinction is important, especially since some folks didn't pick up on it and were surprised that a subscription didn't grant them access to the "books". (This despite clear explanations from DDB)


Sent from my iPad using EN World mobile app


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## dave2008 (Sep 15, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> But man, that final dungeon, even after only having quickly scanned it - that's going to be a real meat grinder in the mode of the original Tomb of Horrors, isn't it? They weren't kidding about this being tougher adventure than usual!




Yes, the traps are killer.  I have only skimmed through the Tomb of the Nine Gods, but since I rarely use traps in my adventures I am confident it would be a TPK for my group if they tried to finish it.


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## Nebulous (Sep 15, 2017)

I won't have my copy until next week.  I had wanted to start character creation soon, (as well as starting with a wholly new group of players ), but I would also like to have the initial maps, and as someone else mentioned, incorporating Xanathar in November is also important, but i'd rather not wait that long. I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to let players redesign character concepts.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Sep 15, 2017)

So impressed with DDB version, able to print and highlight, mark up, draw on etc without ruining book. Still, miss holding the book in my hands rather than a binder but I'll take the trade. Missing out on poster map too, but should be able to use PDF in some form or another.


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## designbot (Sep 15, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Whatever the case, it's unfortunate because Mike's maps are higher resolution, higher DPI and quality so even if you have a lesser version, they're still worth getting.




I love Mike Schley's maps and don't want to take anything away from him… However, as far as I can tell, the maps that you get on D&D Beyond may already be full-resolution, and both marked & unmarked versions are included. They're generally big enough to print 8.5" x 11" at 250 dpi. (Correction: the free Chult map on Schley's website is much larger than the one on D&D Beyond; maybe higher-resolution versions of the other maps exist as well.)

At $25 for the entire adventure including all maps, illustrations, and handouts vs. (based on previous adventures) $15 for a bundle of just the maps, it's a pretty great deal. I am loving the D&D Beyond version, and really don't think I need the physical book at this point.


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## smiteworks (Sep 15, 2017)

I just uploaded a new walk-through of what you get with the Fantasy Grounds version of Tomb of Annihilation for $24.99.

[video=youtube_share;b5EkfRIky4s]http://youtu.be/b5EkfRIky4s[/video]

YouTube Link: http://youtu.be/b5EkfRIky4s


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## darjr (Sep 15, 2017)

I can't watch the vid at the moment. What is the resolution of the maps in Fantasy Grounds?


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## marklopiccola (Sep 16, 2017)

This is one of the times I hate the internet.  You don't even have to buy OR download (steal) the book to know how it plays out.

Talk about SPOILERS!  Every DnD channel on Twitch and YouTube have been playing threw this module for the last two months.  
No big surprises here.

That said,  I have been enjoying the game play.


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## Ricky Alpa (Sep 16, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> My FLGS didn't get their shipment, so unfortunately I wasn't able to get the full book. I did, however, purchase the monster package on D&D Beyond (because, hey, monsters can always be used in hombrew in the meantime and in the future!), and I really like the various new monsters available. I'm very happy to see a nice selection of nasty plant foes, which were lacking in the MM, including a lot of my favorites that hadn't been updated yet to 5e - it will be nice to surprise my players with assassin vines or yellow musk creepers/zombies. Also, there are three new CR 10+ monsters (not including Acererak himself), which is at least a small step towards getting more higher-level foes...


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## Jools (Sep 16, 2017)

marklopiccola said:


> This is one of the times I hate the internet.  You don't even have to buy OR download (steal) the book to know how it plays out.
> 
> Talk about SPOILERS!  Every DnD channel on Twitch and YouTube have been playing threw this module for the last two months.
> No big surprises here.
> ...




Can anybody recommend one as being particularly good?


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## smiteworks (Sep 16, 2017)

darjr said:


> I can't watch the vid at the moment. What is the resolution of the maps in Fantasy Grounds?




The maps for Fantasy Grounds are optimized for online play. We aim to have maps scaled to fit a 50 pixels per 5' square whenever possible.


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## smiteworks (Sep 16, 2017)

*duplicate*

Sorry


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## Trellian (Sep 16, 2017)

So, if you dislike resurrection magic, and have house-ruled that nothing like this exist for close to 20 years.. can you change the premise and still make it work?


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## marklopiccola (Sep 16, 2017)

Depends on your tastes.  
Girls, Guts, Glory on the Dungeons & Dragons Twitch channel isn't bad.
Geek & Sundry has been plat testing it too.


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## marklopiccola (Sep 16, 2017)

Depends on your tastes.  
Girls, Guts, Glory on the Dungeons & Dragons Twitch channel isn't bad.
Geek & Sundry has been plat testing it too.


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## ddaley (Sep 16, 2017)

I have only read a small part of the adventure, but bet you could figure out an adjustment that would still allow you to run this.  Could be something as simple as souls are being captured (as they are in the current adventure as written), but, instead of preventing resurrection, it is preventing them from going to where ever they would normally go.  This would probably upset the gods and others enough to still drive the adventure.



Trellian said:


> So, if you dislike resurrection magic, and have house-ruled that nothing like this exist for close to 20 years.. can you change the premise and still make it work?


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## Corpsetaker (Sep 16, 2017)

How much of Chris Perkins do you find in this adventure?


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## Mistwell (Sep 16, 2017)

Corpsetaker said:


> How much of Chris Perkins do you find in this adventure?




Each hard copy comes with a small portion of Chris Perkins. A fingernail clipping, a bit of skin, a slice of his hair, some small part of him. It's in a lovely vial and everything! Alas the digital copies only come with a Polaroid picture of him. But it's a good one, of him as a child ice skating!


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## Jester David (Sep 16, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Each hard copy comes with a small portion of Chris Perkins. A fingernail clipping, a bit of skin, a slice of his hair, some small part of him. It's in a lovely vial and everything! Alas the digital copies only come with a Polaroid picture of him. But it's a good one, of him as a child ice skating!




I got an eyelash. What did you get?


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## Remathilis (Sep 16, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I got an eyelash. What did you get?



I got a lock of hair, which I will need to complete the holocrux.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 16, 2017)

I received several strands of DNA... enough to clone him several times over.

I'm sorry... I mean make a Simulacrum of him several times over. And each one gets to make Wish spells.  He's quite overpowered. 

Sent from my SM-J320V using EN World mobile app


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## HonorBoundSamurai632 (Sep 16, 2017)

Fildrigar said:


> Huh. In spite of all the hate here for Forgotten Realms, Wizards must be doing something right. Almost like people who frequent forums aren't the center of the RPG world. Weird.




I apologize if my suggestion for Greyhawk came off as FR-hate. A very large (huge) chunk of my gaming shelf contains numerous Forgotten Realms box sets, modules, and adventures spanning 1st, 2nd, 3.0/3.5, and of course 5th.

It has never been suggested that we who post on forums "are the center of the RPG world", but I can speak from experience that I have had personal conversations on these forums with individuals working with and in-charge of Adventurer's League and other developers from other publishing companies. I think it might be safe to assume that WoTC employees may be peaking in from time to time here. If they are, than throwing out a suggestion that may just open the D&D Multiverse (you know .... the default setting of 5th Edition) a little bit more, isn't such a bad idea.

I never suggested to completely end the Realms, but there are tons of storylines to write! One and done books (licensed properly) wouldn't hurt. Suggestions:
1- Mordenkainen is trapped in Ravenloft during CoS. Once word got out on Oerth that he was nowhere to be found .... how has Iuz reacted? What about the Scarlet Brotherhood? Have the current members of The Circle of Eight been able to maintain the balance with their leader missing? With Elemental Evil's failure in Faerun, it would make sense for it to turn it's attention back to Oerth since Mordenkainen isn't there.

2- Remathilis suggested a Planescape adventure book because one could come and go a lot easier than you can from Ravenloft. Are we sure? After what Vecna pulled at the end of 2nd Edition, I think it's safe to assume The Lady of Pain is more watchful of who comes and goes from Sigil and her punishment is probably more severe for even the lowest transgressions (all this to make sure no one tries what Vecna pulled again).

3- Dragonlance wouldn't be a bad place to update either. I've only seen a few comment positively about Krynn on here, but at the end of 3.5 .... Krynn was left in pretty good shape. Takhisis is dead, Paladine walks the land, and pretty much every big name hero/villain is either dead or powerless. The world is ready for PC's to make their mark because there is literally no one left to save the world from the next big threat. Plus, they already updated the Krynn Minotaurs in a Unearthed Arcana.

Again, sorry if my suggestions come off as Realms-hate. I don't hate the Realms .... but I do love the D&D Multiverse more.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 16, 2017)

While FR has been their default, their APs do have sections on how to use them in all the other settings.  I don't see how one could ask them do to more, really.  I prefer greyhawk over FR, and it's super easy to still play the AP, especially with the guidance in the AP itself on how to do so.


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## darjr (Sep 17, 2017)

All I got was this rock.


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## Croesus (Sep 17, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I got an eyelash. What did you get?




Alas, ear wax.


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## Jester David (Sep 17, 2017)

Croesus said:


> Alas, ear wax.




I very literally laughed aloud at this...


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> I got a lock of hair, which I will need to complete the holocrux.




I hate to break it to you, but if you got a lock of hair, it ain't from Chris Perkins.


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## Mistwell (Sep 17, 2017)

darjr said:


> All I got was this rock.











Croesus said:


> Alas, ear wax.


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## Remathilis (Sep 17, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I hate to break it to you, but if you got a lock of hair, it ain't from Chris Perkins.




MEARLS!


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## Jester David (Sep 17, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I hate to break it to you, but if you got a lock of hair, it ain't from Chris Perkins.




Depends... was it curly?


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## Corpsetaker (Sep 17, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Each hard copy comes with a small portion of Chris Perkins. A fingernail clipping, a bit of skin, a slice of his hair, some small part of him. It's in a lovely vial and everything! Alas the digital copies only come with a Polaroid picture of him. But it's a good one, of him as a child ice skating!




Well thank God then!! At least that's better than his annoyingly stupid names and goofy puns he puts into his adventures.


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## EthanSental (Sep 17, 2017)

Corpsetaker said:


> Well thank God then!! At least that's better than his annoyingly stupid names and goofy puns he puts into his adventures.




Maybe it's his nod to the stupid names and naming convention gygax had in his greyhawk campaign setting....?


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## Hutchimus Prime (Sep 19, 2017)

...Out for Delivery...I love that status.


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## tomBitonti (Sep 20, 2017)

Have the book and have been reading through.  So far it is a great region based adventure.  I haven't looked through the final dungeon yet, so don't have anything to say about it yet.  Off the cuff comments:

The book quality is good.  I'm not a big fan of the page shading, but can live with it.  Maps are nice, if a bit small on the printed page.  Is there any way to get the maps as digital resources without spending additional money?

The writing varies from clumsy to alright.

I don't have (nor plan to get) Volo's Guide, so the section with those monsters is alright for me.  I can see how some folks will see them as a needless duplication.

Both the region and smaller adventure sites, leading up to the two big dungeons, are the highlight, and have so far been excellent.

The Death Curse, as written, feels very off.

Having read through all of the prior Tomb of Horrors adventures, the placement of Acererak feels off to me.  And I don't like the change of his strategy, compared with Return to the Tomb of Horrors (the superb 2E adventure).  This adventure doesn't seem to need Acerarak, who feels mashed on to an otherwise rather decent adventure.

I was wondering: How many folks are using the Death Curse as given?  The pace doesn't seem to fit the sense of exploring the huge expanse of jungle that lies ahead of the players, nor does it leave the necessary time to level from (1) to (9) (in any campaign that I've ever played.) Not that I have a problem with the adventure as a whole.  It is a rather nicely done region based adventure.  I just find the Death Curse timing to be wonky.

Also, the idea of sending 1st level characters to handle a global outbreak of such dire consequences feels a bit off.

If I were running this, I'd gradually build up the problem of the Death Curse.  Have it appear here in there at first: A distant rumor easily discounted, with the characters following either adventure or prophecy to explore Chult, then eventually finding themselves thrown into the problem.  There should be plenty of ways to get players to explore Chult, with occasional dire portents and foreshadowing at first, then with the Curse gradually shading in after the characters had a bit of time exploring.

Thx!
TomB


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## Jester David (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Have the book and have been reading through.  So far it is a great region based adventure.  I haven't looked through the final dungeon yet, so don't have anything to say about it yet.  Off the cuff comments:
> 
> The book quality is good.  I'm not a big fan of the page shading, but can live with it.  Maps are nice, if a bit small on the printed page.  Is there any way to get the maps as digital resources without spending additional money?
> 
> ...



The Death Curse isn't going to come up in a book running the adventure as presented. Because the heroes start at levels 1 to 5 and are unlikely to have been resurrected. And once the adventure starts, they can' be raised. 
So the gradual loss of hit points doesn't affect them. 

The Death Curse comes up if you're running with higher level characters. Who are likely better equipped to speed through the dungeon and rush to the city, requiring fewer encounters to get to a level where they can do the dungeon.


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## hawkeyefan (Sep 20, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The Death Curse isn't going to come up in a book running the adventure as presented. Because the heroes start at levels 1 to 5 and are unlikely to have been resurrected. And once the adventure starts, they can' be raised.
> So the gradual loss of hit points doesn't affect them.
> 
> The Death Curse comes up if you're running with higher level characters. Who are likely better equipped to speed through the dungeon and rush to the city, requiring fewer encounters to get to a level where they can do the dungeon.




My plan is to run this for my players, whose PCs are 10th level. I'm sure that the jungle exploration won't be as challenging for them as intended, but I'll beef things up and also make sure to put more hooks in place to get them to seek many of the locations. Two members of the party have been raised, so they'll feel some pressure to keep moving and searchin for Omu and the Tomb. 

I'm pretty stoked about this adventure. It really plays into some elements I've been working with in the ongoing campaign.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Is there any way to get the maps as digital resources without spending additional money?




You can get the massive Chult map for free from Mike Schley. The rest of the maps can be purchased from him in ultra-high quality on December 8th. His maps are always worth paying money for.

http://prints.mikeschley.com/


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## Stormdale (Sep 20, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The Death Curse isn't going to come up in a book running the adventure as presented. Because the heroes start at levels 1 to 5 and are unlikely to have been resurrected. And once the adventure starts, they can' be raised.
> So the gradual loss of hit points doesn't affect them.
> 
> The Death Curse comes up if you're running with higher level characters. Who are likely better equipped to speed through the dungeon and rush to the city, requiring fewer encounters to get to a level where they can do the dungeon.




That is my experience. My pcs are 4th-9th level with 2 pcs who have been raised previously. They are currently losing 1 hp per day so are feeling more under the pump than if it was a random NPC who was wasting away. Last nights session revolved around hiring a guide (interviewing them all before deciding on Qawasha and Kupulue)  and figuring out the fastest way to get to Omu. They decided to fly and spent best part of an hour figuring out how to get most of the party able to fly across the jungle and ended up arriving at Camp Righteous by the end of the session. 

Stormdale


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The Death Curse isn't going to come up in a book running the adventure as presented. Because the heroes start at levels 1 to 5 and are unlikely to have been resurrected. And once the adventure starts, they can' be raised.
> So the gradual loss of hit points doesn't affect them.



I'm planning to allow resurrection to work once, inflicting the wasting "disease" upon characters brought back to life.

Not sure if I'll start the clock right away (assuming no PC gets himself killed right away) or using the Syndra NPC hook...



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Maps are nice, if a bit small on the printed page.  Is there any way to get the maps as digital resources without spending additional money?



No, I'm afraid, not legally. They're available in acceptable quality from the various digital services, and will become available in ultra high-quality in December by Schley's site.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> My plan is to run this for my players, whose PCs are 10th level. I'm sure that the jungle exploration won't be as challenging for them as intended, but I'll beef things up and also make sure to put more hooks in place to get them to seek many of the locations. Two members of the party have been raised, so they'll feel some pressure to keep moving and searchin for Omu and the Tomb.
> 
> I'm pretty stoked about this adventure. It really plays into some elements I've been working with in the ongoing campaign.



Me too.

My players' characters will arrive to Chult at 5th level.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## Demetrios1453 (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Also, the idea of sending 1st level characters to handle a global outbreak of such dire consequences feels a bit off.




This is addressed at the start: the original quest giver has already sent out several higher level parties but they haven't returned. She's getting so desperate now that she's sending out any willing warm body to help find the reason for the curse and get it corrected.


Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app


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## tomBitonti (Sep 20, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, I'm afraid, not legally. They're available in acceptable quality from the various digital services, and will become available in ultra high-quality in December by Schley's site.
> 
> Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app




I guess that's OK.  Better than having to put in for a subscription.  I'm guessing that folks who have the online service have alternate maps which are more usable, and that can be printed to a larger scale.

Thx!
TomB


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## tomBitonti (Sep 20, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The Death Curse isn't going to come up in a book running the adventure as presented. Because the heroes start at levels 1 to 5 and are unlikely to have been resurrected. And once the adventure starts, they can' be raised.
> So the gradual loss of hit points doesn't affect them.
> 
> The Death Curse comes up if you're running with higher level characters. Who are likely better equipped to speed through the dungeon and rush to the city, requiring fewer encounters to get to a level where they can do the dungeon.




Except, exploring Chult is a huge part of the book.  Rushing past all of that bypasses a very large part of the value of the adventure.  Low level characters will be forced to slog through, almost certainly not finishing for several months, if not longer.  Which means death for almost everyone with the curse.

I'm OK with the curse, I just think it should be slowed a bit, and perhaps not affect everyone at once.

Thx!
TomB


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## Eltab (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> the idea of sending 1st level characters to handle a global outbreak of such dire consequences feels a bit off.



NO KIDDING - when Szass Tam (or any other FR epic-undead) starts wasting away for no apparent reason, he's just going to sit there and let it happen?  The perpetrator doesn't believe Szass will find out who / what is messing with him and come charging in like the secular version of a divine thunderbolt ?!
And of course, the defenses and contingency plans that keep multiple L30 spellcasters off your back, will easily repulse a party of novices who show up.


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## Jester David (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Except, exploring Chult is a huge part of the book.  Rushing past all of that bypasses a very large part of the value of the adventure.  Low level characters will be forced to slog through, almost certainly not finishing for several months, if not longer.  Which means death for almost everyone with the curse.
> 
> I'm OK with the curse, I just think it should be slowed a bit, and perhaps not affect everyone at once.
> 
> ...



The mechanics of the Death Curse are how it affects player characters. 
NPCs worsen at the speed of plot. If no PC is affected, hard mechanics are not needed and the curse is just flavour in the background.

But, personally, I'd add a save at dawn each day to avoid lowering hp. You worsen or not.


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 20, 2017)

Eltab said:


> NO KIDDING - when Szass Tam (or any other FR epic-undead) starts wasting away for no apparent reason, he's just going to sit there and let it happen?  The perpetrator doesn't believe Szass will find out who / what is messing with him and come charging in like the secular version of a divine thunderbolt ?!
> And of course, the defenses and contingency plans that keep multiple L30 spellcasters off your back, will easily repulse a party of novices who show up.




Er... the book expressly describes how Szass Tam has sent a party of his own to investigate and shut down or claim the Soulmonger. It's one of the first things that the book talks about, actually! It matters since the players are likely to meet them, I think, but I've not gotten past the first section.

And the players will succeed where others have failed for the same reason that Indiana Jones always manages to make that jump, or Lara Croft always knows the specific language needed to open the door puzzle; because it'd be a pretty boring game otherwise. "Oh, there was this really cool thing that happened last year. Don't worry about it though, Elminster dealt with it." Fun.


----------



## JediSoth (Sep 20, 2017)

What if you introduced the spread of the Death Curse slowly, i.e. it doesn't affect the whole world at once. Have the PCs start off in Chult, for whatever reason, and have it affect that peninsula first, then slowly start to spread, threatening the entire world if it isn't stopped in time, but not yet affecting it. 

Or if you want them to start elsewhere, maybe Syndra fled trying to see if she could get out of range, and was already affected. She learns in Baldur's Gate that it isn't affecting the rest of the world yet and recruits the PCs to go back to Chult with her to stop it before it gets out of hand.

I think that's what I'll do. I'm also moving it to Greyhawk. I'm a little disappointed there isn't MORE about adapting it for other worlds, just one paragraph to cover them all (it doesn't even get its own heading).


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> Er... the book expressly describes how Szass Tam has sent a party of his own to investigate and shut down or claim the Soulmonger. It's one of the first things that the book talks about, actually! It matters since the players are likely to meet them, I think, but I've not gotten past the first section.
> 
> And the players will succeed where others have failed for the same reason that Indiana Jones always manages to make that jump, or Lara Croft always knows the specific language needed to open the door puzzle; because it'd be a pretty boring game otherwise. "Oh, there was this really cool thing that happened last year. Don't worry about it though, Elminster dealt with it." Fun.



You can assume there's half a dozen other crises he's dealing with. The Soulmonger just happened on his day off


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> I was wondering: How many folks are using the Death Curse as given?  The pace doesn't seem to fit the sense of exploring the huge expanse of jungle that lies ahead of the players, nor does it leave the necessary time to level from (1) to (9) (in any campaign that I've ever played.) Not that I have a problem with the adventure as a whole.  It is a rather nicely done region based adventure.  I just find the Death Curse timing to be wonky.
> 
> Also, the idea of sending 1st level characters to handle a global outbreak of such dire consequences feels a bit off.
> 
> ...




The death curse happens WAAAAYY too fast.  I would change it to 1 hit point per week, or require a save every day to resist it.  Alternatively, it would be cool if people who DO die turn into ravenous wights and turn on the living.  

I just got the book yesterday and im still prepping.  As for throwing 1st level heroes into a world spanning problem, yeah, that's kinda broke, but that's D&D and rpgs in general.  

I also ran Return to the Tomb of Horrors many years ago (I ran it in 3rd edition).  It was fantastic, although we never got to the very end.  I wonder how ToA will compare to Return to the Tomb?

And I like your idea of slowly introducing the Death curse.  Having that NPC teleport them to Chult 
does not settle well with me at all.


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 20, 2017)

In fact, I think I will have Syndra Silvane be a relative, maybe a mother or grandmother or a friend of a PC, and they are all on a BOAT at the start of the adventure, sailing to Chult, where Syndra suspects is the source of her debilitating illness.  Before the journey ends, she will succumb to the curse and return as a deathwight, attempting to slay her own relative.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Sep 20, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Me too.
> 
> My players' characters will arrive to Chult at 5th level.





There is advice in the book for starting at levels 1, 5, and 9. It's not the most robust advice, and I don't expect you would agree with all of it, but it's some general guidance that many might find helpful.


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## Wormwood (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm thinking the reaction to the Death Curse would be PANIC.

In my game, I'm granting Acererak had hundreds of years to plan this and is both intelligent and resourceful enough to do so in secret. Before activating the Death Curse, he had hundreds of false leads and clues planted all over Faerun. 

So everyone is in a blind panic trying to figure out what's going on. The mightiest forces in the Realms are mobilizing armies of adventurers (and many are taking to the field themselves—I imagine the Companions of the Hall would be racing up and down the coast after Bruenor's nose falls off). Thay, Undermountain, the Underdark---all the usual haunts are being invaded by panicked heroes led by false leads and corrupted divination.

The reason these lowly 1st (or 5th) level heroes are even in Chult is because of an archmage hedging her bets on a long shot.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

How many days do you actually need to complete the quest?

I'm asking because people describe -1 hp/day as "too fast".

If you complete the adventure in fifty days, that's 50 hp (duh).

But any hero will gain hit points faster than that, since  we are now talking about levelling up from 1 to 11 in fifty days.

A Con 12 Wizard will go from 7 to 57 hit points during that time, essentially meaning she will keep an even pace with the curse...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 20, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> Er... the book expressly describes how Szass Tam has sent a party of his own to investigate and shut down or claim the Soulmonger. It's one of the first things that the book talks about, actually! It matters since the players are likely to meet them, I think, but I've not gotten past the first section.
> 
> And the players will succeed where others have failed for the same reason that Indiana Jones always manages to make that jump, or Lara Croft always knows the specific language needed to open the door puzzle; because it'd be a pretty boring game otherwise. "Oh, there was this really cool thing that happened last year. Don't worry about it though, Elminster dealt with it." Fun.




It also explicity states right in the beginning that other higher level NPCs were chosen before the 1st level party, but they obviously failed, and the PCs are the last option.



Nebulous said:


> The death curse happens WAAAAYY too fast.  l.




I don't think so.  You have to understand how the adventure is designed.  I.e., The slog of the jungle and the difficulties of exhaustion and the like are meant only for tier 1 PCs.  By the time they hit tier 2, they will have available to them things that mitigate much of the mundane awfulness of the jungle, and will have faster travel times.  It's designed so the PCs can focus on the adventure of Omu after tier 1, and not spend a lot of game time doing the same things they spent a lot of time doing on tier 1.

So what that means, is if you start at a higher level in Chult, and/or want to keep the feel of the oppressive hostile jungle past tier 1, then you're gonna have to make those manual changes yourself to do that.  It means that the time frame of 78 days (when she dies) might be too fast if you change the game to have the travel issues still persistent after tier 1.

But as written, and as designed (don't worry about the jungle all that much after tier 1), then that 78 time frame is adequate for the adventure.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 20, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> How many days do you actually need to complete the quest?
> 
> I'm asking because people describe -1 hp/day as "too fast".
> 
> ...




The curse only applies to PCs who have died prior to starting the adventure, so it's largely a moot point for 99% of PCs.  And if a PC dies during the adventure, they can't be raised anyway, so the curse wouldn't apply there either.


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## tomBitonti (Sep 20, 2017)

Not sure if this entire thread isn't already covered by spoilers.  To be extra safe:

[sblock]
I can see characters spending a week alone (if not longer) in the initial port.  Gathering information and supplies.  Taking part in gladiatorial combat or the races to build up reputation.  Heading out once then heading back to deal with one of the several illnesses.

Then there are quite a few locales within the jungle to explore, with possible side quests to help the one fellow mate, or help one of the templar camps.

Not to mention the time spent simply walking or canoeing through the jungle.  The players have hundreds of miles to traverse, with an initially unknown destination.

Then any downtime for training and resupply, or to level up, or to make or procure magic items.

Then time in the hidden city, and its dungeon.  Lots of fights, or, negotiations with the several opposing factions.

Then the dungeon itself, which is rather large.

The 1/hp day rate seems to work for an already 10'th level party which is dropped at the dungeon entrance.  I don't think it works for a 1'st level party that has to explore the jungle.

If starting with a 10'th level party, those which have been resurrected will be at a large disadvantage to other party members.

I'm fine with the _idea_ of the Death Curse.  It just seems to need to be modified somewhat to make it work.
[/sblock]

Thx!
TomB


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## Eltab (Sep 20, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> Er... the book expressly describes how Szass Tam has sent a party of his own to investigate and shut down or claim the Soulmonger. It's one of the first things that the book talks about, actually!



I don't expect to see a copy of the book myself until Christmas.

In the meanwhile, I've been spoofing a common complaint about FR adventures ("Why doesn't the uber-NPC deal with it?").  
Apparently this medium is not carrying my full message very well.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Not sure if this entire thread isn't already covered by spoilers.  To be extra safe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



If they are level 1 as suggested, I don't think this will happen.  My group was level 1, and they left the next morning.  At level 1, they aren't nearly strong enough for gladiator fights, and they were all broke and couldn't do betting on the dino races.  I would suspect that's true of all level 1 parties.  So the first day was gathering information, getting a guide, and setting out the next morning.  In our case, they ran into Undril and agreed to escort her to Camp  Vengeance.  Since they couldn't afford racing, and couldn't do gladiator fighting, that was really their primary option.  No point hanging around town.


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## Charles Rampant (Sep 20, 2017)

Eltab said:


> I don't expect to see a copy of the book myself until Christmas.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I've been spoofing a common complaint about FR adventures ("Why doesn't the uber-NPC deal with it?").
> Apparently this medium is not carrying my full message very well.




Ah, well, that's fine then. Carry on! 

You going to try and swing Christmas copies of this and Xanathar's? That'd be fun


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## hawkeyefan (Sep 20, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> How many days do you actually need to complete the quest?
> 
> I'm asking because people describe -1 hp/day as "too fast".
> 
> ...




It depends how you play it. For PCs of 1st level, you have 79 days to complete the quest. However, since this is not explicitly stated unless the DM decides to share how many HP Syndra has remaining, it can be fudged as needed. I would expect most parties to feel a sense of urgency, but not necessarily feel like immediate resolution is needed. But I don't think they'll know "we have 79 days to take care of this."

For these parties, gaining levels will help offset the HP lost to the curse. I think that based solely on hexes it's about 35 or so hexes between Nyanzaru and Omu, but that doesn't count for getting lost or going on sidequests or lingering in certain locations. So I think 60 days or so is likely a reasonable expectation to have. That's a rough guess based on what I've read so far. Obviously some groups may go quicker and others may take more time. It's hard to say, but that 79 day timeframe seems likely to at least threaten to come into play. 

Starting at level 5 shouldn't alter that HP buffer since it will just be a matter of the PCs starting off with a lot of the HP instead of gaining them all as they level. But the module does assume the curse has been in effect for 20 days as the adventure starts, so anyone affected would already be down by 20 max HP. 

That's how I'll handle it for my 10th level PCs. The two that have been raised will be down 20 HP to start and lose 1 per day. I personally don't think it's too severe.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 20, 2017)

I like the idea of false leads a lot. I also like the thought that the PCs are already there for some other reason


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 20, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> It depends how you play it. For PCs of 1st level, you have 79 days to complete the quest. However, since this is not explicitly stated unless the DM decides to share how many HP Syndra has remaining, it can be fudged as needed. I would expect most parties to feel a sense of urgency, but not necessarily feel like immediate resolution is needed. But I don't think they'll know "we have 79 days to take care of this."
> 
> For these parties, gaining levels will help offset the HP lost to the curse. I think that based solely on hexes it's about 35 or so hexes between Nyanzaru and Omu, but that doesn't count for getting lost or going on sidequests or lingering in certain locations. So I think 60 days or so is likely a reasonable expectation to have. That's a rough guess based on what I've read so far. Obviously some groups may go quicker and others may take more time. It's hard to say, but that 79 day timeframe seems likely to at least threaten to come into play.
> 
> ...




But again, the curse only applies to those PCs who have died in the past.  That pretty much eliminates any 1st level PC (since you're probably starting from scratch).  And during the adventure, no PC can be raised, so they wouldn't suffer from that aspect of the curse either; they're dead.   IMO, that makes the curse a moot point for starting at level 1 like the game assumes.  Even with PCs at a higher level (like level 5), they only need to worry about the curse if they died in a previous adventure.  Then they'd start at -20 HP and lose more each day.  In that case, I imagine urgency is of the utmost importance.  The good news, is that if you're starting at a higher level, you can get right into the main adventure and not spend days/weeks traversing the jungle doing level gains and gathering information.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 20, 2017)

You could change the curse to apply to all healing magic also. I've been considering that. A slower curse to those raised, but a clear curse to all healing magic.


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## Warmaster Horus (Sep 20, 2017)

Here are some (mostly non-combat) encounter/event ideas I brainstormed up this morning for ToA.  These can be linked to other types of encounters or just used as window dressing.  No DCs or the like included to keep it level-agnostic.

1)  A vast and exceedingly deep sinkhole crevasse has recently opened on your path.  Over 50’ wide it stretches off to the sides as far as you can see.  A large, downed tree bridges it nearby.

2)  You find a roughly-hewn stone altar to a savage, unknown god with the bloody decapitated heads of seven jungle tribesmen staring unseeingly into the distance.  As you approach, one head stirs and hoarsely utters a curse in Chultan, affecting the nearest PC, before falling silent.

3)  A poisonous viper has curled up in one of your party member’s packs.  It will strike from surprise the next time the pack is opened unless somehow detected first.

4)  A ‘stack’ of goblins have been staked to the trunk of a tree, still one on top of the other.  The lower ones have been significantly gnawed upon by jungle scavengers while the upper ones are still somewhat unspoiled.

5)  The way ahead has flooded, with water gradually rising to 3-5 feet in depth.  Traversing this area is slow, exhausting and fraught with unseen dangers - pitfalls, quippers and more, below the waterline.

6)  You find a stone cairn in a clearing raised around a well shaft.  Faint markings on the stone show it to be of ancient construction and even though it contains remarkably clean, cool, fresh water, there is no sign of it being approached or used by any local inhabitants.

7)  The air beneath the jungle canopy becomes a stifling miasma, even more hot and oppressive than usual.  The usual animal sounds trail off and an eerie silence descends as you move forward.

8)  A disembodied hand (creeping claw) is occasionally seen skittering in the boughs above you, matching your direction of travel.  It is elusive and unpredictable, never approaching within 50’ and always in the trees.

9)  The large corpse of a stegosaurus surrounded by a bloody, trampled battleground opens up in the jungle to one side of your trail.  It was obviously killed recently by a large predator, evident by the absence of scavengers and the fresh, iron-tinged scent of blood in the air.

10)  You spot a treehouse on the lower limbs of a large tree bordering a clearing.  It is abandoned but surprisingly uncluttered, with a simple latched door to it’s three-room interior.

11)  A whiff of sulfur betrays a series of hot springs that open up before you.  The skeletons of dead trees and colorful sprays of accumulated chemical deposits decorate the ground around bubbling pools of caustic water.

12)  A large, ancient brass bell, stamped with strange pictograms, lies covered in mosses and aged verdigris at the foot of a vine-covered tree.  Lifting up the heavy object reveals the body of a badly-decomposed albino dwarf clutching a fabulously valuable emerald to its’ chest.  The emerald is cursed.

13)  A small, circular stockade of pointed stakes lays on the bank of a small stream.  Covered in glowing fallen leaves at its’ center is a tiger skull with Continual Flame cast on it.

14)  The area becomes crossed with old, tattered giant spider webs.  Moldering, silk-wrapped corpses of monkeys, sloths and other jungle creatures hang from the branches above.  The largest such bundle contains the husk of a half-orc adventurer named Nurl Twotongue.  Although his equipment is useless he bears a scroll tube with a roughly crafted map bearing his name which can confirm the player’s current location in the jungles of Chult.

15)  A friendly, colorful parrot named ‘Tim-Tim’ flies onto the shoulder of a party member.  He knows a handful of phrases and loves to eat juicy bark beetles.  He is also an polymorphed imp familiar of a yuan-ti warlock who is keeping track of the party’s progress.

16)  Loud jungle drums start up and continue night & day as you move through the forest.  Their location and distance is nearly impossible to discern and their constant thrumming makes resting difficult.  Efforts to decipher any meaning in them is very hard, though if successful, information about the party’s location, activities and direction of travel can be made out.

17)  You come across an old slash & burn farming plot that still has a small number of gnarled tropical fruit trees with stunted but perfectly edible produce.

18)  A gnomish trader named Barleyoat has set up a small barter post along the river.  She has several local tribespeople working for her and is a valuable resource regarding local activities.  She’s quite friendly, overly so, in fact, and very eccentric.

19)  One of your party falls into a patch of puff-ball fungi, coughing as they are surrounded by spores.  Although they receive two levels of exhaustion they gain insight (advantage) on all Survival rolls made in jungle terrain for the remainder of the adventure.

20)  A heavy mist rolls in over the jungle, interrupted only by daily torrential rains, limiting vision to 30’.  Heavy local iron deposits make compasses useless.  Without extraordinary guidance you become lost and have a 25% chance per day of exiting this area to a randomly determined adjacent hex.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Edit: not sure why my "spoiler" tag isn't working.  Can someone fix this?



The problem is there is one tag working on desktop and a different tag working on mobile (app).



Spoiler



Spoiler tag works in the app



[sblock]
Sblock tag works in the browser
[/sblock]



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## tomBitonti (Sep 20, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> It depends how you play it. For PCs of 1st level, you have 79 days to complete the quest. However, since this is not explicitly stated unless the DM decides to share how many HP Syndra has remaining, it can be fudged as needed. I would expect most parties to feel a sense of urgency, but not necessarily feel like immediate resolution is needed. But I don't think they'll know "we have 79 days to take care of this."
> 
> For these parties, gaining levels will help offset the HP lost to the curse. I think that based solely on hexes it's about 35 or so hexes between Nyanzaru and Omu, but that doesn't count for getting lost or going on sidequests or lingering in certain locations. So I think 60 days or so is likely a reasonable expectation to have. That's a rough guess based on what I've read so far. Obviously some groups may go quicker and others may take more time. It's hard to say, but that 79 day timeframe seems likely to at least threaten to come into play.
> 
> ...




I was thinking not so much re: 1'st level characters as to the curse timing, but whether any party has a chance to prevent massive deaths for the affected at large.

I'm seeing a mismatch between the scale of the response and the response as described in the adventure. *Anyone* on the planet who has been raised is affected.  Any of them which who are actively adventuring are likely in big trouble.  Lots of retired adventurers will be in trouble.  A lot of very high level persons will be impacted. There should be a massive introdus of high and epic level folks to Chult.  Seriously, many more folks than the adventure describes.

And not only are folks who are raised affected: Souls cease to reach their intended final destination.  They are being imprisoned, and consumed, with an average delay of 10 days.  Religions all over would be pulling out all of the stops to deal with the problem.

Thx!
TomB


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 20, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> I was thinking not so much re: 1'st level characters as to the curse timing, but whether any party has a chance to prevent massive deaths for the affected at large.
> 
> I'm seeing a mismatch between the scale of the response and the response as described in the adventure. *Anyone* on the planet who has been raised is affected.  Any of them which who are actively adventuring are likely in big trouble.  Lots of retired adventurers will be in trouble.  A lot of very high level persons will be impacted. There should be a massive introdus of high and epic level folks to Chult.  Seriously, many more folks than the adventure describes.
> 
> ...




Well, what you say makes logical sense.  But...plot.


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## ddaley (Sep 21, 2017)

I am interested... how would this work?  Would healing spells magic do less healing?  Would healing from magic "wear off?"  



Zaukrie said:


> You could change the curse to apply to all healing magic also. I've been considering that. A slower curse to those raised, but a clear curse to all healing magic.


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## ddaley (Sep 21, 2017)

I still haven't made it that far into the adventure... but it has similar characteristics to Isle of Dread, which I have been wanting to run for my group.  I am really liking this so far.


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## hawkeyefan (Sep 21, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> But again, the curse only applies to those PCs who have died in the past.  That pretty much eliminates any 1st level PC (since you're probably starting from scratch).  And during the adventure, no PC can be raised, so they wouldn't suffer from that aspect of the curse either; they're dead.   IMO, that makes the curse a moot point for starting at level 1 like the game assumes.  Even with PCs at a higher level (like level 5), they only need to worry about the curse if they died in a previous adventure.  Then they'd start at -20 HP and lose more each day.  In that case, I imagine urgency is of the utmost importance.  The good news, is that if you're starting at a higher level, you can get right into the main adventure and not spend days/weeks traversing the jungle doing level gains and gathering information.




Yes, the curse should not matter at all to 1st level characters except as motivation to keep going forward. Looking at my comments, I see how it wasn't clear that's what I was saying, but I do agree with you. 

For my game, my PCs are 10th level, and so far two of them have been raised. Those characters will suffer from the curse. I don't plan on going straight to Omu. They'll have to search the other locations to get the info they need. Acererak can counter the divinations and other such tricks they can deploy to try and use shortcuts, so they're going to have to do a lot of trekking.




tomBitonti said:


> I was thinking not so much re: 1'st level characters as to the curse timing, but whether any party has a chance to prevent massive deaths for the affected at large.
> 
> I'm seeing a mismatch between the scale of the response and the response as described in the adventure. *Anyone* on the planet who has been raised is affected.  Any of them which who are actively adventuring are likely in big trouble.  Lots of retired adventurers will be in trouble.  A lot of very high level persons will be impacted. There should be a massive introdus of high and epic level folks to Chult.  Seriously, many more folks than the adventure describes.
> 
> ...




I feel like the adventure does a good job of portraying the fact that many folks are seeking the Soul Monger. They could go with more, but that'd be overkill. Also, I don't know if there are as many "epic" characters in Faerun as there used to be. With a few notable exceptions, they've removed a lot of them from the picture. 

Plus there's also the meta reason that no one wants their PCs to watch NPCs solve the problem while they make the NPC coffee.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 21, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> If they are level 1 as suggested, I don't think this will happen.  My group was level 1, and they left the next morning.  At level 1, they aren't nearly strong enough for gladiator fights, and they were all broke and couldn't do betting on the dino races.  I would suspect that's true of all level 1 parties.  So the first day was gathering information, getting a guide, and setting out the next morning.  In our case, they ran into Undril and agreed to escort her to Camp  Vengeance.  Since they couldn't afford racing, and couldn't do gladiator fighting, that was really their primary option.  No point hanging around town.



Syndra gives them all 50gp each at the start. Also, there are plenty of random encounters as well as specific encounters that can happen in Port Nyanzaru that delay leaving, entangle the PC's in various side-quests and lots of NPC's to interact with and further the plot. I think I'll probably end up giving the PC's a lot of ropes to hang themselves with and that they'll end up not leaving the port until 3rd level (which is pretty quick in 5e).



hawkeyefan said:


> I feel like the adventure does a good job of portraying the fact that many folks are seeking the Soul Monger. They could go with more, but that'd be overkill. Also, I don't know if there are as many "epic" characters in Faerun as there used to be. With a few notable exceptions, they've removed a lot of them from the picture.
> 
> 
> Plus there's also the meta reason that no one wants their PCs to watch NPCs solve the problem while they make the NPC coffee.



Well, there was that whole Rise of Tiamat thing, then these silly Elemental Princes came along, and then there was that whole Demonic Rage thing, and then people kept disappearing into some sort of Dreaded Demi-plane and if that wasn't enough, the Giants Stormed all over the place.

So, you know, attrition and all that.


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## Hutchimus Prime (Sep 21, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I still haven't made it that far into the adventure... but it has similar characteristics to Isle of Dread, which I have been wanting to run for my group.  I am really liking this so far.




I know. I was really surprised that Isle of Dred wasn't listed as one of the sources of inspiration for the adventure.


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## hawkeyefan (Sep 21, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Well, there was that whole Rise of Tiamat thing, then these silly Elemental Princes came along, and then there was that whole Demonic Rage thing, and then people kept disappearing into some sort of Dreaded Demi-plane and if that wasn't enough, the Giants Stormed all over the place.
> 
> So, you know, attrition and all that.




There are epic stories, true. But with 5E they are pretty much limited to the game rather than to novels, so all these crazy problems are solved by PCs in a game rather than by uber-powerful characters in a novel. Other than Elminster, and a handful of villains like Zsasz Tam, most of the other existing FR characters are far from "epic". There are three of them in this adventure, and they're pretty far below epic level types. 

While it's sad to see the novels end for those that enjoy them, I feel like it's probably good for the setting and the game.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 21, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I am interested... how would this work?  Would healing spells magic do less healing?  Would healing from magic "wear off?"



Right now I'm thinking all healing magic is drained as it is cast. Every temple would be concerned. I would consider having it decay also, like one point every couple days.... And I would say no one should know why, like above, lots of false clues. I would start the campaign as some kind of exploration effort probably. Though I am not sure about that yet.


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## Croesus (Sep 21, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> I was thinking not so much re: 1'st level characters as to the curse timing, but whether any party has a chance to prevent massive deaths for the affected at large.
> 
> I'm seeing a mismatch between the scale of the response and the response as described in the adventure. *Anyone* on the planet who has been raised is affected.  Any of them which who are actively adventuring are likely in big trouble.  Lots of retired adventurers will be in trouble.  A lot of very high level persons will be impacted. There should be a massive introdus of high and epic level folks to Chult.  Seriously, many more folks than the adventure describes.
> 
> ...




One option is to limit the affected area of the curse. Initially, it only impacts Chult, and the more powerful groups elsewhere are inclined to ignore the warnings. _"My lord, it's just a minor problem in that backward region. Nothing for us to worry about here."_ But after so many days it spreads to the wider world. In effect, the PCs get first shot at fixing it because they happen to be there. If they fail, then the rest of the world gets involved (which could lead to a second chance with higher level PCs). 

Obviously, some changes would need to be made to the actual curse, but that's relatively easy.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 21, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Syndra gives them all 50gp each at the start. Also, there are plenty of random encounters as well as specific encounters that can happen in Port Nyanzaru that delay leaving, entangle the PC's in various side-quests and lots of NPC's to interact with and further the plot. I think I'll probably end up giving the PC's a lot of ropes to hang themselves with and that they'll end up not leaving the port until 3rd level (which is pretty quick in 5e).
> 
> .




She only gives them that money if they start haggling with her.  My players, being good heroic PCs, agreed to the quest without demanding money 

And most of those side quests are meant for higher level PCs.  Gladiator fights, taking out pirates, etc.  Nothing a 1st level party could handle.  RAW, there are actually only just a couple that a level 1 party could do.  Believe me, my goal and intention was to not have them leave until level 3 when they would have some survivability.  But it didn't work out that way.  Also, knowing it was a curse, put a sense of urgency into my players.  They didn't just want to loiter around for a while.


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## Nebulous (Sep 21, 2017)

Warmaster Horus said:


> Here are some (mostly non-combat) encounter/event ideas I brainstormed up this morning for ToA.  These can be linked to other types of encounters or just used as window dressing.  No DCs or the like included to keep it level-agnostic.
> 
> 1)  A vast and exceedingly deep sinkhole crevasse has recently opened on your path.  Over 50’ wide it stretches off to the sides as far as you can see.  A large, downed tree bridges it nearby.
> 
> ...





dude, Warmaster, you should have been a writer on this stuff, these are great ideas!


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## Nebulous (Sep 21, 2017)

I am going to localize the death curse to Chult and nearby coasts of Calimshan.  As others have pointed out, a WORLDWIDE death curse, affecting a hundred thousand people at least, from every country, every religion and every class, would create a catastrophic stampede to Chult.  Entire armies would be amassed.   Warships would be en route.  Whole legions of troops would be teleported to the middle of the jungle and nuke every dinosaur they see before falling on the ruins.  

To me, having it start slow, and spread and get worse and worse makes it much more scary and explainable.  My PCs just happened to be near ground zero. 

Also, I do like the idea of some people resurrecting as death wights when they succumb.


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## ddaley (Sep 22, 2017)

Tell me about those side quests.  I was reading about Camp Righteous, which the characters will likely find early one.  That place is deadly for low level characters.  I will have to figure out how to scare my group away.  They tend to be pretty skittish of things, so shouldn't be too hard.



Sacrosanct said:


> She only gives them that money if they start haggling with her.  My players, being good heroic PCs, agreed to the quest without demanding money
> 
> And most of those side quests are meant for higher level PCs.  Gladiator fights, taking out pirates, etc.  Nothing a 1st level party could handle.  RAW, there are actually only just a couple that a level 1 party could do.  Believe me, my goal and intention was to not have them leave until level 3 when they would have some survivability.  But it didn't work out that way.  Also, knowing it was a curse, put a sense of urgency into my players.  They didn't just want to loiter around for a while.


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## JesterOC (Sep 22, 2017)

ddaley said:


> Tell me about those side quests.  I was reading about Camp Righteous, which the characters will likely find early one.  That place is deadly for low level characters.  I will have to figure out how to scare my group away.  They tend to be pretty skittish of things, so shouldn't be too hard.



The random monsters you encounter might be the best way to dissuade. Low level PCs from getting far into the jungle. Hit them hard while they are still near the walls. That might drive them back. Another group could possibly rescue them without being ridiculous.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## ddaley (Sep 22, 2017)

Camp Righteous is right on one of the rivers leading out of Port Nyanzaru.  Not sure if my group will take that route, but I bet many groups hit that very early.  I will probably have their guide warn them about traps in areas like that.



JesterOC said:


> The random monsters you encounter might be the best way to dissuade. Low level PCs from getting far into the jungle. Hit them hard while they are still near the walls. That might drive them back. Another group could possibly rescue them without being ridiculous.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 23, 2017)

ddaley said:


> Tell me about those side quests.  I was reading about Camp Righteous, which the characters will likely find early one.  That place is deadly for low level characters.  I will have to figure out how to scare my group away.  They tend to be pretty skittish of things, so shouldn't be too hard.




Why? There are plenty of warnings. The camp itself is a warning. If they have an NPC guide, sure, have them give a warning as well. But otherwise, if they go in and die, then they should die. ToA is very much about putting the fear into players and having characters die, permanently.

I swear these days DM's are far too accommodating, generous and forgiving. Sometimes I wish I could just yell, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTERCUP!" Back in the day, if a character died, it wasn't a cause for grief-stricken mourning, it was a reason for quickly scratching together a new one at the table and introducing him as Bob 2.0.


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## kenmarable (Sep 23, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Why? There are plenty of warnings. The camp itself is a warning. If they have an NPC guide, sure, have them give a warning as well. But otherwise, if they go in and die, then they should die. ToA is very much about putting the fear into players and having characters die, permanently.
> 
> I swear these days DM's are far too accommodating, generous and forgiving. Sometimes I wish I could just yell, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTERCUP!" Back in the day, if a character died, it wasn't a cause for grief-stricken mourning, it was a reason for quickly scratching together a new one at the table and introducing him as Bob 2.0.




Back in *whose* day? I’ve been playing this since back in the day, and the DMs were just as generous then as now. There’s no right or wrong way to play the game as long as you’re having fun, and in my experience no two groups ever really play it the same way anyway.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 23, 2017)

kenmarable said:


> Back in *whose* day? I’ve been playing this since back in the day, and the DMs were just as generous then as now. There’s no right or wrong way to play the game as long as you’re having fun, and in my experience no two groups ever really play it the same way anyway.




There's no right or wrong way to play D&D... just superior and inferior ways


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## ddaley (Sep 23, 2017)

I started playing circa 1980... and yeah, DMs were generous and we, as players... um... abused henchmen   I will be taking some fairly inexperienced players through this.  I will probably adjust things based on their level as we play... especially traps.  Getting a TPK is one thing.  But, getting a TPK because of a failed save against a trap is another.



kenmarable said:


> Back in *whose* day? I’ve been playing this since back in the day, and the DMs were just as generous then as now. There’s no right or wrong way to play the game as long as you’re having fun, and in my experience no two groups ever really play it the same way anyway.


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## Nebulous (Sep 23, 2017)

So, how is everyone dealing with characters who want to wear heavy armor in the jungle?  Per the book, it just says you need 2 gallons of water a day to avoid a DC 15 Con save, and if you were wearing medium or heavy armor, that save is at Disadvantage.  

SO, as long as you have 2 gallons of water, tromping around in plate mail all day is ok?

I think I might try to discourage players from wearing heavy armor.


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## EthanSental (Sep 23, 2017)

Nebulous said:


> So, how is everyone dealing with characters who want to wear heavy armor in the jungle?  Per the book, it just says you need 2 gallons of water a day to avoid a DC 15 Con save, and if you were wearing medium or heavy armor, that save is at Disadvantage.
> 
> SO, as long as you have 2 gallons of water, tromping around in plate mail all day is ok?
> 
> I think I might try to discourage players from wearing heavy armor.




I added the heat stroke rule from the 2e Chult book for those wearing heavy armor.


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## Mirtek (Sep 23, 2017)

Nebulous said:


> So, how is everyone dealing with characters who want to wear heavy armor in the jungle?  Per the book, it just says you need 2 gallons of water a day to avoid a DC 15 Con save, and if you were wearing medium or heavy armor, that save is at Disadvantage.
> 
> SO, as long as you have 2 gallons of water, tromping around in plate mail all day is ok?
> 
> I think I might try to discourage players from wearing heavy armor.



Are you at least also removing the AC bonus from monks and barbarians? And the Dex bonus to AC in general.

Why introduce a "realistic" disadvantages of heavy armor in a game where it has none of it's "realistic" advantages? People wore those armors because they were superior at keeping you alive and not having them meant a massive disadvantage. D&D just gives arbitrarily to certain classes having them perform as well as an armored fighter while wearing onyl a pyjamas or even less.


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## Wormwood (Sep 23, 2017)

Actually working on a system for jungle rot ( the research alone is fascinating). And I also find myself looking at the 2e Chult supplement to make jungle appropriate clothing​/armor more attractive.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 23, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> Are you at least also removing the AC bonus from monks and barbarians? And the Dex bonus to AC in general.
> 
> Why introduce a "realistic" disadvantages of heavy armor in a game where it has none of it's "realistic" advantages? People wore those armors because they were superior at keeping you alive and not having them meant a massive disadvantage. D&D just gives arbitrarily to certain classes having them perform as well as an armored fighter while wearing onyl a pyjamas or even less.



Please let other people play the game their way.

Thank you. 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## Jester David (Sep 23, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> Are you at least also removing the AC bonus from monks and barbarians? And the Dex bonus to AC in general.
> 
> Why introduce a "realistic" disadvantages of heavy armor in a game where it has none of it's "realistic" advantages? People wore those armors because they were superior at keeping you alive and not having them meant a massive disadvantage. D&D just gives arbitrarily to certain classes having them perform as well as an armored fighter while wearing onyl a pyjamas or even less.



Because lots of people D&D to simulate a world to some degree. While the mechanics do not completely hew to reality, real world logic is meant to still apply. Gravity works. People need to eat and sleep and use the outhouse. 

And running around a sweltering jungle in a tin can breaks some people's immersion as much as someone stepping off a cliff and not falling because the rules don't explicitly say anything about gravity.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Because lots of people D&D to simulate a world to some degree. While the mechanics do not completely hew to reality, real world logic is meant to still apply. Gravity works. People need to eat and sleep and use the outhouse.
> 
> And running around a sweltering jungle in a tin can breaks some people's immersion as much as someone stepping off a cliff and not falling because the rules don't explicitly say anything about gravity.




Considering that some of the armors are listed light, medium, heavy fairly arbitrarily, and some "light" armors (padded, for instance) would be as worrisome in a jungle environment as plate armor. So, if you're looking for "realism", basing penalties on armor types is a rather poor way to go about it.


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## guachi (Sep 24, 2017)

But that's taking one element of reality and ignoring others to the detriment of medium and heavy armor.

The game already ignores the reality that heavy armor is vastly better than no armor at all. There is no real world logic for monks and barbarians getting such high AC wearing no armor.

It's a salad bar approach to 'realism' that works to the detriment of players who wish to wear armor.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 24, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> Are you at least also removing the AC bonus from monks and barbarians? And the Dex bonus to AC in general.
> 
> Why introduce a "realistic" disadvantages of heavy armor in a game where it has none of it's "realistic" advantages? People wore those armors because they were superior at keeping you alive and not having them meant a massive disadvantage. D&D just gives arbitrarily to certain classes having them perform as well as an armored fighter while wearing onyl a pyjamas or even less.





This has already been addressed earlier in the thread (and in other threads), so I'll assume you didn't get to read those.

It's because the monk and barbarian's AC is a specific rule that overrides expected realism.  Just like spells, or hit points, or any other rule that specifically addresses how realism is overridden in the game via fantastical means.  If there is not a rule that overrides realism, then it is the default assumption that people will play based on our own knowledge of how the real world works.  It's why you don't allow people to run up walls or jump 50ft unless they have a specific fantastical ability (and rule) that allows them to do that.

So if there was a class feature, or a feat, or some other ability or spell that overrides the drawbacks of wearing heavy metal armor in a jungle, it is expected that it would indeed be a factor as we would expect it to behave in our real world today.


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Considering that some of the armors are listed light, medium, heavy fairly arbitrarily, and some "light" armors (padded, for instance) would be as worrisome in a jungle environment as plate armor. So, if you're looking for "realism", basing penalties on armor types is a rather poor way to go about it.



It's not going to be perfect, no. But not even making the _attempt _because it's a little funky seems... I dunno. Lazy? Defeatist? 

Calling out metal armours seems like the easiest way, since you can have lighter hide and leather amours. The padded armour could be padded Chultan armour designed for the heat. But metal platemail is metal platemail.

Warrior types have the choice of focusing on Dex over heavy armour, or accepting the heat, or pushing their DM for light bone or insect chitin heavy armours that would work in the jungle. 

It's a sweltering hot jungle. Not making characters that are able to function in the jungle is a choice. If the player wants to play a mounted knight with a warhorse, it's not up to the DM to accommodate that choice and make the warhorse operate in the dense underbrush of the jungle. 
Just like if a player plays that same character in a shipbound pirate campaign and refuses to learn how to swim. Choices have consequences.


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

guachi said:


> But that's taking one element of reality and ignoring others to the detriment of medium and heavy armor.
> 
> The game already ignores the reality that heavy armor is vastly better than no armor at all. There is no real world logic for monks and barbarians getting such high AC wearing no armor.
> 
> It's a salad bar approach to 'realism' that works to the detriment of players who wish to wear armor.



Not all player choices or builds should be (or can be) appropriate to every campaign. Some choices should be detrimental.


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## ddaley (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> ...
> Warrior types have the choice of focusing on Dex over heavy armour, or accepting the heat, or pushing their DM for light bone or insect chitin heavy armours that would work in the jungle.
> ...




I am leaning toward penalizing most armor that isn't made with the heat in mind.  Luckily, my group will be coming into this adventure between level 3 & 5, so should have some money to spend.  They will need to pick up new armor once they arrive in Chult, unless they want to face a penalty...

I'll probably make available to them a place to store their current armor so they can pick it up later, if they so desire.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 24, 2017)

I think I'm going to make it that if you're wearing armour, you have to make the check regardless of you drinking the required 2 gallons of water. And that if you don't drink water and wear armour, then you don't even get to make the check, you just fail and accrue a level of exhaustion.


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## hawkeyefan (Sep 24, 2017)

Yeah, I'll be applying some kind of penalty for wearing armor. Haven't decided exactly how to handle it yet, but I'm doing something similar right now with my PCs while they're on Athas. Chult's like the opposite extreme.

As far as such a ruling penalizing some classes or characters and not others....that's not really a concern for me. I try to make sure there are challenges for each character at times, and ultimately, I want to challenge the party. So their heavy armor guys having to take a drop in AC fits, so it works for me.

EDITED TO ADD: I think I just decided how to handle it. Here:

- Not consumming 2 gallons of water in a day= a level of exhaustion with no save
- Activity in light armor- no save needed needed
- Activity in medium armor- CON save or level of exhaustion 
- Activity in heavy armor- CON save with disadvantage or level of exhaustion

I'll have to figure out the DC though....don't want it to be too steep. Maybe have it scale? DC 8 + 1 for each consecutive day of activity.

What do you guys think of that? Similar to some other ideas in this thread, but a little different.


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## fjw70 (Sep 24, 2017)

I am not using the heavy armor penalty. I am running it for a group of mostly new players (kids). But if I was using it I would make sure that the players knew about them ahead of time so they could create appropriate characters.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It's not going to be perfect, no. But not even making the _attempt _because it's a little funky seems... I dunno. Lazy? Defeatist?




Sure, but it would be lazy to not take individual types of armor into consideration and instead use armor types as a basis. I mean, why should ring mail be treated like plate armor rather than the more similar leather or studded leather (brigandine), why should chain mail (which was used in even the jungled regions of India) be considered worse in the jungle than half plate (which includes chain mail)?




> The padded armour could be padded Chultan armour designed for the heat. But metal platemail is metal platemail.




So, Chult has padded armor that is magically not thick, hot, prone to retaining sweat, and being infested with bugs? Weren't we trying to create a sense of verisimilitude, here?


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## Nebulous (Sep 24, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> Yeah, I'll be applying some kind of penalty for wearing armor. Haven't decided exactly how to handle it yet, but I'm doing something similar right now with my PCs while they're on Athas. Chult's like the opposite extreme.
> 
> As far as such a ruling penalizing some classes or characters and not others....that's not really a concern for me. I try to make sure there are challenges for each character at times, and ultimately, I want to challenge the party. So their heavy armor guys having to take a drop in AC fits, so it works for me.
> 
> ...




I like it. I might tweak the DC though.


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## ddaley (Sep 24, 2017)

I am in a similar boat.  My players are fairly new and one turned 10 recently... If I were playing with experienced players, I probably wouldn't go too easy on them.  For this group, when they arrive in Chult, I think I'll let the characters know that their armor isn't suited for this environment and that they'll need to pick up armor that was made locally.  That will get them motivated to go shopping and explore the city.



fjw70 said:


> I am not using the heavy armor penalty. I am running it for a group of mostly new players (kids). But if I was using it I would make sure that the players knew about them ahead of time so they could create appropriate characters.


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## ddaley (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> So, Chult has padded armor that is magically not thick, hot, prone to retaining sweat, and being infested with bugs? Weren't we trying to create a sense of verisimilitude, here?




I haven't thought about this in detail yet, but maybe not all armor types will be available in "Chultian" versions.  I don't think anyone in my group is wearing padded... who wears padded anyways?


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Sure, but it would be lazy to not take individual types of armor into consideration and instead use armor types as a basis. I mean, why should ring mail be treated like plate armor rather than the more similar leather or studded leather (brigandine), why should chain mail (which was used in even the jungled regions of India) be considered worse in the jungle than half plate (which includes chain mail)?



Sure. But that's easy enough to leave for the DM to decide. We don't need a chart of penalties based on every armour...



Azzy said:


> So, Chult has padded armor that is magically not thick, hot, prone to retaining sweat, and being infested with bugs? Weren't we trying to create a sense of verisimilitude, here?



First, in seventeen years of d20 I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear padded.So that's a moot point.

Second... what's your point? That all armour should have the same penalty? That because the limit doesn't apply perfectly there shouldn't be any limit at all?


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> First, in seventeen years of d20 I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear padded.




Which is grossly disappointing given that padded is probably meant to be a gambeson and it's proven that it's one of the most popular and effective armours throughout history.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Sure. But that's easy enough to leave for the DM to decide. We don't need a chart of penalties based on every armour...




Who's asking for that?



> First, in seventeen years of d20 I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear padded.So that's a moot point.




Which is a sad thing.



> Second... what's your point? That all armour should have the same penalty? That because the limit doesn't apply perfectly there shouldn't be any limit at all?




My point, and I thought that it was fairly clear, is that using armor type as the basis for which armors should be more troubling in a hot jungle is lazy, isn't realistic, and should be avoided in lieu of just creating a list of which armors cause problems based on a bit of logic and common sense.


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> My point, and I thought that it was fairly clear, is that using armor type as the basis for which armors should be more troubling in a hot jungle is lazy, isn't realistic, and should be avoided in lieu of just creating a list of which armors cause problems based on a bit of logic and common sense.



That's great in theory. 

What happens when they add more armours to the game? 
Since they wrote that rule in the PHB, we've seem one new type of armour in official products and many more in 3PP.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> That's great in theory.
> 
> What happens when they add more armours to the game?
> Since they wrote that rule in the PHB, we've seem one new type of armour in official products and many more in 3PP.




Let the DM that proposed the initial houserule to deal with it and move on? It's not like it takes a lot of brainpower from said DM to decide which armor goes into "bad in the jungle" stack.


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Let the DM that proposed the initial houserule to deal with it and move on? It's not like it takes a lot of brainpower from said DM to decide which armor goes into "bad in the jungle" stack.




Which is what they have with the loose guideline of "metal armour". A baseline DMs can modify as needed. A foundation to house rule.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> It's not like it takes a lot of brainpower from said DM to decide which armor goes into "bad in the jungle" stack.




All of them would be bad in a jungle. Well, depending on what the hell "leather" and "studded leather" armours actually are since they don't really exist in history. If they were a cuir bouilli then it would be super uncomfortable, and if it was a buff coat, again, very hot and stifling in a jungle environment. Or if they were some type of lamellar they'd still probably be uncomfortable. Only if it were the stupid TV trope of soft leather with useless studs on it would it be remotely acceptable, even if it couldn't possibly provide any actual protection in reality.

Wait, sorry, what was your point again?


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> All of them would be bad in a jungle. Well, depending on what the hell "leather" and "studded leather" armours actually are since they don't really exist in history. If they were a cuir bouilli then it would be super uncomfortable, and if it was a buff coat, again, very hot and stifling in a jungle environment. Or if they were some type of lamellar they'd still probably be uncomfortable. Only if it were the stupid TV trope of soft leather with useless studs on it would it be remotely acceptable, even if it couldn't possibly provide any actual protection in reality.
> 
> Wait, sorry, what was your point again?




If you were following the conversation, some people are proposing additional penalties for wearing heavy armor in the jungle in an attempt to add a level of "realism". My point is that, since the categorization of armors into light/medium/heavy is a bit arbitrary and haphazard, it would make more sense to categorize which armors are likely to be most troubling based on common sense (instead of using the haphazard armor types) if one really wished for a degree of "realism".

As for leather, it has a history of being described as cuir boulli (buff coats post date the medieval period, so are likely not represented in D&D by default). Studded leather, the way it was initially described when it first appeared in D&D (1e) seems like it was supposed to represent brigandine (though when 2e was released, it listed brigandine separately).


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which is what they have with the loose guideline of "metal armour". A baseline DMs can modify as needed. A foundation to house rule.




Most of the posters here that have noted interest in creating houserules penalizing armor use in the jungle have said they were basing it upon armor type (notably heavy armor), so I'm not seeing what your post has to do with what's actually been discussed.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 24, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Considering that some of the armors are listed light, medium, heavy fairly arbitrarily, and some "light" armors (padded, for instance) would be as worrisome in a jungle environment as plate armor. So, if you're looking for "realism", basing penalties on armor types is a rather poor way to go about it.



Now you're only trying to make issue so complicated you can conclude it's best to do nothing.

Well, I've got news for you: you can already do nothing.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## CapnZapp (Sep 24, 2017)

guachi said:


> But that's taking one element of reality and ignoring others to the detriment of medium and heavy armor.
> 
> The game already ignores the reality that heavy armor is vastly better than no armor at all. There is no real world logic for monks and barbarians getting such high AC wearing no armor.
> 
> It's a salad bar approach to 'realism' that works to the detriment of players who wish to wear armor.



And you're free to not use these ideas.

But this forum already contains far far too many negative posts. So how about you allowing people interested in armor + heat rules to discuss that, while you focus your attention somewhere where your opinion is appreciated? 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## MonsterEnvy (Sep 24, 2017)

I feel I need to point out somthing to people talking about how the Death Curse would result in tons of people going to Chult.

Most people don't actually know the Death Curse is a thing it's currently just rumors when the Adventure starts. Most of the people that are wasting away don't actually know the reason and even more of them don't know the source of it. 

Only a few groups like the Harpers and Thay were able to link the source of the events to Chult and they don't really know any more. Which is why they sent groups to investigate. Also the Undead like Szass Tam are unaffected by it Tam is purely interested in it as a way to increase his power, which he why he sends Valindra and a Red Wizard team to investigate.


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## Mirtek (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Because lots of people D&D to simulate a world to some degree. While the mechanics do not completely hew to reality, real world logic is meant to still apply. Gravity works. People need to eat and sleep and use the outhouse.
> 
> And running around a sweltering jungle in a tin can breaks some people's immersion as much as someone stepping off a cliff and not falling because the rules don't explicitly say anything about gravity.



And the barbarian stopping blades with his abs and the monk with the power of will is totally not breaking any immersion at all. But the equally superhuman (try parrying a giant or a dragon, everybody in D&D is superhuman) fighter or paladin trotting through a dessert or jungle in his armor is.


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## SuperTD (Sep 24, 2017)

In regards the the maps, I love that they have a consistent style and quality through the whole book, due to all being done by Schley. Also, they are all mapped for a 5' square grid! Other adventures were always a little annoying for online play having to resize different maps by different amounts on Roll20.


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## tomBitonti (Sep 24, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I feel I need to point out somthing to people talking about how the Death Curse would result in tons of people going to Chult.
> 
> Most people don't actually know the Death Curse is a thing it's currently just rumors when the Adventure starts. Most of the people that are wasting away don't actually know the reason and even more of them don't know the source of it.
> 
> Only a few groups like the Harpers and Thay were able to link the source of the events to Chult and they don't really know any more. Which is why they sent groups to investigate. Also the Undead like Szass Tam are unaffected by it Tam is purely interested in it as a way to increase his power, which he why he sends Valindra and a Red Wizard team to investigate.




Liches are affected: The curse prevents their souls from reaching their phylacteries.

I would expect the Harper’s knowledge to spread quickly.  If there was confusion about the source of the curse, the response at large would be different, but the adventure makes no suggestion of that.

Thx!
TomB


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## Ath-kethin (Sep 24, 2017)

This is way off the various topics I see in this thread, but let me say: my favorite thing about ToA is how it accommodates low-magic campaigns.

Hear me out.

I've shied away from running any of the other APs for two reasons: I don't care for the baked-in-full-campaign approach of them and they all presume the standard 5e/FR gonzo magic baseline (TFtYP notwithstanding). While ToA is still an AP, it's set up more to my liking in terms of styling. Care seems to have been taken to make sure that those of us who run games without ridiculous magic and goofy Star-Trek style "4 million sentient humanoid races" can still use it.

Two distinct bits of evidence to support this claim: 

1) the adventure starts in earnest at the docks, where the teleportation spell drops them. But this also means that if you erase the magic bit and have the party take a ship, everything starts in the same place.

2) in the 2e Chult sourcebook, there were two groups called  Tabaxi: a tribe of human barbarians and the redundant cat-people race. By combining these into one set of people, the designers made it easy to remove the cat-dudes and just have the tribe, with no confusion.

Was all this intentional? I'm not sure. But I'm actually going to run this adventure, unlike the others.


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## fjw70 (Sep 24, 2017)

I am not sure I see any difference from the other APs in regards to multiple sentient species and magic.


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> And the barbarian stopping blades with his abs and the monk with the power of will is totally not breaking any immersion at all. But the equally superhuman (try parrying a giant or a dragon, everybody in D&D is superhuman) fighter or paladin trotting through a dessert or jungle in his armor is.



Only if the DM describes the monk and barbarian's higher AC as supernaturally tough skin and not a preternatural ability to dodge. 

If that's what breaks your immersion, then change those rules. 

The game sets a baseline and it's up to groups to customise for their desired realism. Tweak healing. Hit points. AC. Whatever. The game gives the base rules and some modifications to get the DM started (like the metal armour in hot weather rule in the PHB), and leaves them to make the game their own.


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## SkidAce (Sep 24, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> And the barbarian stopping blades with his abs and the monk with the power of will is totally not breaking any immersion at all. But the equally superhuman (try parrying a giant or a dragon, everybody in D&D is superhuman) fighter or paladin trotting through a dessert or jungle in his armor is.




Come on, you know the trope is the monk is DODGING, and the barbarian is sucking up the minor wounds through STAMINA, and DISREGARD.

I agree that penalizing armor wearers needs to be adjudicated carefully.  But that's a benefit of those two classes, not wearing armor.  So in a way, by not penalizing in the jungle, you are taking away an ability of theirs.

But its just a game, no worries.

EDIT:  Not meant as an attack or sarcasm, realized it could be taken that way...


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## Jester David (Sep 24, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> Come on, you know the trope is the monk is DODGING, and the barbarian is sucking up the minor wounds through STAMINA, and DISREGARD.



That and the trope of barbarians in loincloths. Which never worked very well in D&D because their AC when doing so was butt, so you had barbarians in Hide or studded leather or breastplates. 
Adding Con to AC works very nicely to make that trope work.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 24, 2017)

Um, regarding the padded armor thing, this is moot too you know?  I think a lot of these arguments would not be necessary if at least one person looked at what the rules said first.  Those exhaustion rules in the DMG apply to medium and heavy armor, _and heavy clothing_.  I think padded armor certainly qualifies as heavy clothing.


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 24, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Only if the DM describes the monk and barbarian's higher AC as supernaturally tough skin and not a preternatural ability to dodge.
> 
> If that's what breaks your immersion, then change those rules.
> 
> The game sets a baseline and it's up to groups to customise for their desired realism. Tweak healing. Hit points. AC. Whatever. The game gives the base rules and some modifications to get the DM started (like the metal armour in hot weather rule in the PHB), and leaves them to make the game their own.




Yep.  The game explicitly gives rules as to how a barbarian and monk break rules of realism in the topic of AC.  How you decided to describe that is up to you.  Like I've said, the game expects people will be using the basic laws of realism unless there is a specific rule that overrides it.


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## Mirtek (Sep 24, 2017)

*sorry double post*


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## Mirtek (Sep 24, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> But that's a benefit of those two classes, not wearing armor.  So in a way, by not penalizing in the jungle, you are taking away an ability of theirs.



 And the benefit of a fighter is heavy armor proficiency. And by just adding penalties the game normally doesn't have you are taking away an ability of theirs. So if you don't want to take anyone's ability away, all just get the vanilla rules treatment.


Sacrosanct said:


> Yep.  The game explicitly gives rules as to how a barbarian and monk break rules of realism in the topic of AC.  How you decided to describe that is up to you.  Like I've said, the game expects people will be using the basic laws of realism unless there is a specific rule that overrides it.



 And the game explicitly hives rules as how characters wearing heavy armor are affected by the environment. That's a specific rule overriding the basic laws of realism.

Monks/Barbarians are so awesome that they can fight naked, realism be damned. Fighters are so awesome that they just shrug off heat (as long as the drink enough, and given their con saves probably even if they don't), reaslism be damned.

Both backed by explicit rules passages. But one is seem as OK, the second as an abomination that needs to be changed.


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## MonsterEnvy (Sep 24, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Liches are affected: The curse prevents their souls from reaching their phylacteries.
> 
> I would expect the Harper’s knowledge to spread quickly.  If there was confusion about the source of the curse, the response at large would be different, but the adventure makes no suggestion of that.
> 
> ...




Were does it say that Liches are affected. I must have missed that.

Also why would the Harper's Knowlege spread quickly. They tend to be fairly secretive. And there is confusion most people don't even know the Curse is a thing. Your Employer in the Adventure learned that apparently the source is in Chult which is why she sends you.


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## EthanSental (Sep 24, 2017)

Bring over endure elements spell from previous editions so armor worn isn't an issue but only dehydration from the heat and humidity.


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## Azzy (Sep 24, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Now you're only trying to make issue so complicated you can conclude it's best to do nothing.




Huh, I didn't realize that using a bit of sense to select which armors would be extra disadvantageous in a jungle setting is terribly complicated. Or that doing so is so complicated that an average DM (that's already making a houserule to make the game "more realistic") would find it's best to do nothing instead.


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## GameOgre (Sep 24, 2017)

I do not mind DM's altering the rules to make the world work for them.

I do mind the DM's altering the rules to make the world work for them and screwing me over as a player.

Don't want me in heavy armor in the middle of a jungle? Fine, i'm ok with that. Then give me something else to use that gives me the same AC. Maybe some hardened plant or bark or just magic left over from some lost civilization.

Now if its the start of a game and you want to try out those rules that's fine,just get the players to buy in and don't be surprised when nobody plays a Heavy armor user. 

It's amazing to me that this one DM I know who doesn't like Rogue Sneak Attacks and so house ruled them away is always complaining nobody plays rogues. 

I will say that in 5E it's not that big a deal. If you told me before the game started about the heavy armor rule and I still wanted to play a fighter I would just play a dex fighter. Done finished.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 24, 2017)

EthanSental said:


> Bring over endure elements spell from previous editions so armor worn isn't an issue but only dehydration from the heat and humidity.




Protection from Energy does the same thing. In the DMG under Extreme Heat it also says, "Creatures with resistance or immunity to fire damage automatically succeed on the saving throw, as do creatures naturally adapted to hot climates." So you could apply that, even though it's technically not in the slightly altered and combined version of the Extreme Heat from the DMG and Food & Water requirements from the PHB that are in the adventure itself.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 25, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Protection from Energy does the same thing. In the DMG under Extreme Heat it also says, "Creatures with resistance or immunity to fire damage automatically succeed on the saving throw, as do creatures naturally adapted to hot climates." So you could apply that, even though it's technically not in the slightly altered and combined version of the Extreme Heat from the DMG and Food & Water requirements from the PHB that are in the adventure itself.



Yeah, no, protection from fire is far too powerful. Simplifying away Endure Elements is another case where I prefer a less simple game.

More on this in my other thread, where I discuss the environment challenges of Chult from the perspective of veteran players in a magical Realms:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=580099



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## robus (Sep 26, 2017)

I’m reading through and I’m not impressed by the large number of DC 10 checks. What is the point of that?

Latest example: Jahaka Anchorage. This secret spot is “protected” by some rocks that require a DC 10 INT check to navigate. And there’s even a buffer if they fail that! And the rocks are submerged so how are they detected in order to be safely navigated?

I don’t understand why they put in a bunch of words and basically let the players auto succeed?

A better option IMHO: a DC 15 perception check to notice worrying patterns in the water warning of submerged rocks. Miss that and a terrible grinding sound is heard alerting the crew to the danger - now the job becomes difficult as the ship will have to be carefully maneuvered out of the rocks - DC 20 (with a buffer as before). If they spot the danger they can (at the expense of some time) choose an easier route through DC 15 (with buffer).

That seems much more engaging?


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 26, 2017)

robus said:


> Latest example: Jahaka Anchorage. This secret spot is “protected” by some rocks that require a DC 10 INT check to navigate. And there’s even a buffer if they fail that! And the rocks are submerged so how are they detected in order to be safely navigated?




Firstly, it's a base Intelligence check. Few characters have reason to have a high Int score. So for a lot of groups, that's going to be a flat 50% chance of success on the roll. A 50% chance to damage your vessel isn't insignificant. And who's going to fix that damage? The characters sail into the port and then have to deal with pirates who, depending on the PC's level, could easily overwhelm the party. Even a mid-high level party might struggle against so many opponents. But even if they beat the pirates, is anyone proficient to fix the vessel? Do all of the pirates die or do some escape? Do they know how to repair it?

And then you have to go through the rocks again to get out, risking damaging your vessel again. Three strikes and you sink.

As for knowing they're there or not, it doesn't say which is a bit annoying. However, if you know anything about sailing then you'll know that any seasoned sailor, i.e. someone with vehicles (water) proficiency or the sailor background, would be able to see the differences in currents and waves to know that there was low water and either a sandbar or rocks close to the surface. You could have them do a proficiency check in that case, probably Wisdom (Vehicles (Water)).


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## ddaley (Sep 26, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> ...As for knowing they're there or not, it doesn't say which is a bit annoying. However, if you know anything about sailing then you'll know that any seasoned sailor, i.e. someone with vehicles (water) proficiency or the sailor background, would be able to see the differences in currents and waves to know that there was low water and either a sandbar or rocks close to the surface. You could have them do a proficiency check in that case, probably Wisdom (Vehicles (Water)).




This is true.  I spent many years sailing lakes and harbors as a kid/teenager.  You learn to recognize boulders that are below the surface pretty quickly.  I would imagine that captains would have lookouts for obstacles any time they were near enough to shore.  I have not read this part of the adventure yet, so can't comment directly on it.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 26, 2017)

I forgot to add that players don't know the DC and even when you've got a +8 to a particular check, a roll of 1 would still be a failure. The chance of failure, and constantly asking for rolls, both engages the players, gives them a sense that they could fail, and breaks up description in play so that you're not just telling people what's there and they're actually engaging with the setting and environment, even if in only a minor way.

So in some sense, it's more psychological than anything else. Plus, every so often, they _will_ fail a check. Sometimes the dice just don't like you.


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## robus (Sep 26, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> I forgot to add that players don't know the DC and even when you've got a +8 to a particular check, a roll of 1 would still be a failure. The chance of failure, and constantly asking for rolls, both engages the players, gives them a sense that they could fail, and breaks up description in play so that you're not just telling people what's there and they're actually engaging with the setting and environment, even if in only a minor way.
> 
> So in some sense, it's more psychological than anything else. Plus, every so often, they _will_ fail a check. Sometimes the dice just don't like you.




That’s fine,what I don’t get is the incongruity between the description (the pirates relying on the hidden rocks for protection) and the DC of the challenge. If most captains would find the rocks then the pirate captains are stupid to rely on it.


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 26, 2017)

robus said:


> That’s fine,what I don’t get is the incongruity between the description (the pirates relying on the hidden rocks for protection) and the DC of the challenge. If most captains would find the rocks then the pirate captains are stupid to rely on it.




Well, I don't know about you but from the time I've spent on the water, the number one rule is safety and caution. Only a fool would risk it. Even lawful authorities (of which there are none) or merchant princes seeking reparations, would be hard pressed to find a captain willing to take a 50/50 shot at sinking their vessel (remembering that they don't know it takes three hits to sink it, they just think there's a risk of it from whatever is causing the eddies below the surface).

Anyway, it's not like it's hard to change to a higher DC if you think it's warranted. Personally, I've seen PC's fail DC 5 climb checks and fall to their deaths. Not every check has to come with a high chance of failure.


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## tomBitonti (Sep 26, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Were does it say that Liches are affected. I must have missed that.
> 
> Also why would the Harper's Knowlege spread quickly. They tend to be fairly secretive. And there is confusion most people don't even know the Curse is a thing. Your Employer in the Adventure learned that apparently the source is in Chult which is why she sends you.




It’s on page 5.  But I misread.  Liches are deprived of their ability to capture souls in their phylacteries.  I don’t think that means they can’t reform — which is what I thought I had read.  So they are affected, but not nearly as badly as I said.

I still think the Harper’s knowledge would spread quickly.  The affliction is wide spread, and known to priests.  Why would the Harper’s knowledge on this matter be kept a secret?

Once it becomes known that souls are being destroyed (this doesn’t seem to have been learned yet) I would expect major religions to send large and powerful expeditions to Chult.  Depriving souls their just reward in the afterlife is a very huge problem for religions.

Thx!
TomB


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## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 26, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Liches are deprived of their ability to capture souls in their phylacteries.  I don’t think that means they can’t reform — which is what I thought I had read.  So they are affected, but not nearly as badly as I said.



Yeah, so they'll eventually decay and become demiliches, basically.



tomBitonti said:


> Once it becomes known that souls are being destroyed (this doesn’t seem to have been learned yet) I would expect major religions to send large and powerful expeditions to Chult.  Depriving souls their just reward in the afterlife is a very huge problem for religions.




On thinking on this, this is the one big gripe I have about the campaign. Having it world-wide at the very start definitely makes it less believable that it wouldn't be addressed by more proficient groups, especially since it states that Syndra used divinations to find out the location. The idea of having it spread and Syndra being the one person on the Sword Coast who died and was resurrected in Chult being currently affected is much better and also gives a sense of urgency beyond merely that Syndra will die.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 26, 2017)

robus said:


> I’m reading through and I’m not impressed by the large number of DC 10 checks. What is the point of that?
> 
> Latest example: Jahaka Anchorage. This secret spot is “protected” by some rocks that require a DC 10 INT check to navigate. And there’s even a buffer if they fail that! And the rocks are submerged so how are they detected in order to be safely navigated?
> 
> ...



Exactly. 

A secret door with a DC 10 isn't secret, it's just partially obscured.

Even a regular Commoner makes passive DC 10 checks all the time, every time.

Only the village fool and the village drunk could miss such a "secret" door.

I would argue that even DC 15 is a trivial automatic success for any party with veteran players. Making sure at least one party member chooses a high-Wisdom class with Perception proficiency isn't exactly expert play...

Either you need to ditch the rules for passive checks, or you need to enforce the traveling rules, where this party member cannot keep watch in every direction at once. 

So yes, any time an adventure specifies a DC 10, that just reveals the designer isn't using the same rules as you or I... 

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## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 26, 2017)

The book does make the distinction between a DC10 Wisdom(Perception) check, and something noticed by anyone with a passive perception of 10 or above sometimes I believe. Many parties will have a chance of failing the DC10 check even though they would have practically no chance of missing something requiring 10+ passive perception.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 26, 2017)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> The book does make the distinction between a DC10 Wisdom(Perception) check, and something noticed by anyone with a passive perception of 10 or above sometimes I believe. Many parties will have a chance of failing the DC10 check even though they would have practically no chance of missing something requiring 10+ passive perception.



I'm sure you'll concede how wildly inconsistent different modules has been in this regard.

Almost as if the PHB rules could have been written better, so everybody read and used the rules right out the gate already from the start...


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## robus (Sep 26, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Well, I don't know about you but from the time I've spent on the water, the number one rule is safety and caution. Only a fool would risk it. Even lawful authorities (of which there are none) or merchant princes seeking reparations, would be hard pressed to find a captain willing to take a 50/50 shot at sinking their vessel (remembering that they don't know it takes three hits to sink it, they just think there's a risk of it from whatever is causing the eddies below the surface).
> 
> Anyway, it's not like it's hard to change to a higher DC if you think it's warranted. Personally, I've seen PC's fail DC 5 climb checks and fall to their deaths. Not every check has to come with a high chance of failure.




Guess what, I even proposed that in my original post, so yes it isn’t hard.  What I was looking for was an explanation as to why the encounter was designed as it was, given the build up. I look at these adventures as design references for how best to create encounters and adventures. When things seem off it confuses me and makes me wonder what the reasoning behind it was...


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 26, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Exactly.
> 
> A secret door with a DC 10 isn't secret, it's just partially obscured.
> 
> Even a regular Commoner makes passive DC 10 checks all the time, every time.




Not necessarily.  The 1st level of Exhaustion gives Disadvantage on all ability checks, which means that in the case of Passive Perception the PP number drops by 5.  So there's always a fairly good chance that if/when someone comes upon a secret door, their PP will have dropped due to Exhaustion to the point that they might not notice them.

You do make a good point though that a DC 10 "secret door" is really more of a partially concealed door if we were to look at the narrative of how the room looks and what exactly makes this door less noticeable.  But that's really all up to the DM to describe things.  The 5E game no longer makes distinctions between "concealed" doors or "secret" doors or however many variants they identified in the past.  All doors that aren't just completely obvious with a frame, a knob, hinges etc. are called "secret doors", regardless of how disguised they may or may not be.  And that's where the DC comes in to distinguish the door that is just built into how the wall looks versus the door that is behind a hanging tapestry versus the door that blocked by a bookcase that moves on wheels to reveal it versus the door that has an illusion masking it versus the door that is a magical block with door edges that are practically imperceptible.

Is a DC 10 secret door meant to be a challenge?  Perhaps not.  Perhaps in normal situations that secret door is actually just a regular door that has several large potted plants in front of it.  The "concealed" door as you put it.  And ordinarily, yeah, most people will notice it if they enter the room.  But, if they happen to be exhausted, or if they are walking by the room and just give a quick glance inside without actually searching it (and the DM just says what is obviously seen)... the DC 10 is just enough to make some people miss it.

Will it be worthwhile to all groups?  Nope.  But as has always been the case, these adventures are not written under the expectation they will be perfect for all groups, because all groups run the game differently.  So they default the adventure to the less experienced player under the expectation that the veteran player can make the exceedingly quick decision to bump up secret door DCs by 5 if they so choose.  Because it takes literally less than a second to do so as you come upon them as you read.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 26, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> snip



So many words Defcon when all you needed to say was

"I agree some of the 5e rules make no sense and needs to be changed by most DMs" 

It is okay to love 5e and point out its warts, all at the same time.

You really don't need to defend every little choice WotC made, Defcon - especially not the poorer ones. You're still allowed to think 5e is great, like I do.

Just sayin...



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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 26, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> So many words Defcon when all you needed to say was
> 
> "I agree some of the 5e rules make no sense and needs to be changed by most DMs"
> 
> ...




Why would I need to say it when you've been saying it for all of us repeatedly over and over every chance you've had for the past 3 years?  

And truth be told... I don't say it simply because I understand it's _expected_ that I need to change things that don't work for me when I play D&D.  I've been changing things in every single edition since I've started 30 years ago because that's how games become my own.

The D&D that I read in the book is not my game.  I don't expect it to be. I don't complain when I read it and find it not to be.  The D&D that I read in the book is *a* game.  But it's not MY game.  MY game occurs when I take what is in the book and adjust it, work it, flavor it, balance it, adapt it, stricken it, justify it, and re-write it so that it BECOMES my game.  And as that is exactly what I expect D&D to be... why would I waste my time pointing that out to people?  Because that's biggest "Well no duh!" I could possibly say.

Instead, I see what the game in the book has written and I talk about how I could adapt it, work it, flavor it, balance it, adjust it, stricken it, justify it and re-write it.  But the one thing I'm not going to do is complain about it.

--unless of course we're talking the _Barkskin_ spell.  I'll spend pages shouting how much of a piece of sh*t that spells is as written and how Crawford screwed the pooch on his Sage Advice on it.    LOL!


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## robus (Sep 26, 2017)

Here's my issue. I don't see the reason for putting exploration stuff in that ends up being a minor speedbump (if it's noticed at all). To me that weakens the exploration pillar unnecessarily.

They created a cool encounter: a pirate bay protected by a hidden barrier of treacherous rocks that will most likely wreck any ships that don't know how to navigate it!

Oooh, cool -  I wonder how the PCs might get past this??!!

Oh - it's a single DC 10 Int roll....


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## CapnZapp (Sep 26, 2017)

robus said:


> Here's my issue. I don't see the reason for putting exploration stuff in that ends up being a minor speedbump (if it's noticed at all). To me that weakens the exploration pillar unnecessarily.
> 
> They created a cool encounter: a pirate bay protected by a hidden barrier of treacherous rocks that will most likely wreck any ships that don't know how to navigate it!
> 
> ...



This.


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## jasper (Sep 26, 2017)

how this for realism. Humanoids from non jungle environments must roll a DC 15 Con check per day or become sunburn. Lose 2 hit pts. If failed by 5 gain a level of exhaustion and take 1d6 of damage. Races of the underdark, mountain dwarves, wood elvess and pc with artic  backgrounds roll with disadvantage


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## robus (Sep 26, 2017)

jasper said:


> how this for realism. Humanoids from non jungle environments must roll a DC 15 Con check per day or become sunburn. Lose 2 hit pts. If failed by 5 gain a level of exhaustion and take 1d6 of damage. Races of the underdark, mountain dwarves, wood elvess and pc with artic  backgrounds roll with disadvantage




Jungles are actually very well shaded, so not necessarily a bigger risk for sunburn (though some areas of Chult are quite exposed).


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## jasper (Sep 26, 2017)

robus said:


> Jungles are actually very well shaded, so not necessarily a bigger risk for sunburn (though some areas of Chult are quite exposed).



I been in well shaded forest and got 2nd degree sunburn. This white boy burns. And peta tired to drag me back into the Alabama gulf coast because they thought I was a beached baby white whale.


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## Mull Ponders (Sep 26, 2017)

I think this is a great book. It would be worth it even without the actual tomb and plot device of the Soulmonger. I consider it a bargain if you just use it as a sourcebook for Chult.


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## Azzy (Sep 26, 2017)

jasper said:


> how this for realism. Humanoids from non jungle environments must roll a DC 15 Con check per day or become sunburn. Lose 2 hit pts. If failed by 5 gain a level of exhaustion and take 1d6 of damage. Races of the underdark, mountain dwarves, wood elvess and pc with artic  backgrounds roll with disadvantage




Out of curiosity, why wood elves instead of high elves?


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## jasper (Sep 26, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Out of curiosity, why wood elves instead of high elves?



HIGH CLASS ELVES DON'T BURN. Or they smoke so much they don't notice.


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## Runny (Oct 23, 2017)

Does anyone know where you get Scorpion Armor?  I can’t find it in the book, but it’s in an annex in the back of the book.


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## Echohawk (Oct 23, 2017)

Runny said:


> Does anyone know where you get Scorpion Armor?  I can’t find it in the book, but it’s in an annex in the back of the book.



One of the prisoners of the mirror (Lukanu, Bodyguard to Queen Napaka of Omu) is wearing a set. She is mentioned on page 163. I don't think that armor is mentioned anywhere else in ToH except there and in appendix C.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 30, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Observation #8:  I don't see any way that the trial of the octagon (room #76) is not a TPK for my group.  There is no way they figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap (and I don't see how they can survive the trap).  Did I miss something? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this room?



Not exactly a timely reply , but now I'm at the stage that I'm prepping the final two levels of the Tomb.

The correct sequence to not trigger the trap is spelled out right there, on page 1 of the nursery rhyme.


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## Nebulous (Nov 30, 2018)

AriochQ said:


> This!
> 
> It is almost as if they are attempting to coop all the quality GH material in the hopes that GH fans will somehow fall in love with FR.  GH has a certain feel and FR has a different feel, they do both a disservice by mashing them together.




I guess I can't really agree with this.  I like GH fine, and I like FR fine, but within the limited scope of Princes and Tomb, you're in the hills and temples in the former, and the jungle and dungeon in the latter.  Within the context of whatever "fantasy world" it takes place, it doesn't matter because it doesn't have much impact on the story.  

The only difference I would see is the deities a PC might worship, but that is still going to fall under the generic domains of Life, Death, War, Love, etc. 

Now, if one were running a full fledged open campaign or homebrew, then the feel of the game world would have a much stronger impact. 

Then again, I've never understood the Greyhawk/Realms love/hate thing.  I like the Realms fine, but it's just a generic fantasy world for me with locations and some history that we have a consistent group memory with.  If Greyhawk had been there more than the FR then I would have memories of that one, but either way, I don't care, so long as they have a fleshed out world to play in.


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## dave2008 (Nov 30, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Not exactly a timely reply , but now I'm at the stage that I'm prepping the final two levels of the Tomb.
> 
> The correct sequence to not trigger the trap is spelled out right there, on page 1 of the nursery rhyme.




I haven't looked at the book in a long time and I don't remember anything about a nursery rhyme, so I probably just skimmed it.  We don't run published adventures, but I do mine them or ideas and I love the monster stats


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## CapnZapp (Dec 1, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I haven't looked at the book in a long time and I don't remember anything about a nursery rhyme, so I probably just skimmed it.



Read the room again and get back to me if you still harbor your earlier misgivings (that "there is no way [to] figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap"). 

(I did search around, but couldn't find anyone else complaining about this particular part but you.) Cheers.


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## dave2008 (Dec 1, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Read the room again and get back to me if you still harbor your earlier misgivings (that "there is no way [to] figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap").
> 
> (I did search around, but couldn't find anyone else complaining about this particular part but you.) Cheers.




I will, but just a clarification, I didn't say there was no way to figure it out, but no way _my_ group would figure it out.  Now it is entirely possible I missed the clues when I skimmed, as I don't remember anything about a nursery ryhme.  I will check it out and get back to you.


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## dave2008 (Dec 1, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Read the room again and get back to me if you still harbor your earlier misgivings (that "there is no way [to] figure out the correct sequence to not trigger the trap").
> 
> (I did search around, but couldn't find anyone else complaining about this particular part but you.) Cheers.




Ok, I see the issue.  

[sblock]None of the group at the time could read infernal (I don't think anyone can now either).  We don't have any full casters and no one regularly preps comprehend languages.  Unless I missed something, I don't see any other way to deactivate the trap other than read it in infernal.[/sblock]


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## CapnZapp (Dec 1, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Ok, I see the issue.



First off, please keep in mind that SBLOCK tags work on desktop but not in the app; and SPOILER tags work in the app, but not on desktop. The tldr is: always use both.



Spoiler



[sblock]That's fair... but also not representative - a party that's approaching double-digit levels that still can't cast language magics, and that haven't taken other steps to gain language capacity, even in a foreign land with significant amounts of content communicated in other languages than Common must be considered weak in this area, weaker than can reasonably be expected of the adventure writer.

I am fully aboard the notion that nobody knows a specific language such as Infernal. But a party steaming ahead without having any recourse to translate it? They pretty much deserve getting banged up by the trap - remember, we're at the very end of a very long campaign, so I don't see the stakes being raised as unreasonable here. (Pro Tip: When they next can't decipher a clue, maybe send in one hero and have the rest stay back?  )

I don't think I would call that assumption "hardcore D&D"  [/sblock]



But anyway - thanks for replying, now I know the room likely doesn't have any (other) hidden gotchas. Cheers


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## dave2008 (Dec 1, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> First off, please keep in mind that SBLOCK tags work on desktop but not in the app; and SPOILER tags work in the app, but not on desktop. The tldr is: always use both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I didn't realize the sblock didn't work on the app - good to know.

I full realize my group is abnormal.   Heck they don't even have a cleric (or any magic healing to speak of)!


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## epithet (Dec 1, 2018)

Nebulous said:


> I guess I can't really agree with this.  I like GH fine, and I like FR fine, but within the limited scope of Princes and Tomb, you're in the hills and temples in the former, and the jungle and dungeon in the latter.  Within the context of whatever "fantasy world" it takes place, it doesn't matter because it doesn't have much impact on the story.
> 
> The only difference I would see is the deities a PC might worship, but that is still going to fall under the generic domains of Life, Death, War, Love, etc.
> 
> ...




Has anyone seen a map for this adventure in Hepmonaland? I guess you could just use the Chult map, but how well does it track with pre-existing Hepmonaland geography?


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## Quickleaf (Dec 1, 2018)

epithet said:


> Has anyone seen a map for this adventure in Hepmonaland? I guess you could just use the Chult map, but how well does it track with pre-existing Hepmonaland geography?




The main challenge is that the rivers in Chult – Soshenstar, Tiryki, Olung – flow south to north, and generally the PCs need to go south, so each river essentially serves as a narrative to determine what sorts of preplanned encounter areas the PCs discover along the way. For example, the Soshenstar has escalating signs of goblins > undead-ravaged abandoned camp haunted by goblins > new camp with its own problems. 

While Hepmonoland is vaguely Chult-like with its coastline & towns in the north, it doesn't have any long rivers oriented the same way as Chult, so there is none of that built in narrative flow.

I believe ToA recommends the Amedio Jungle for DMs running Greyhawk (in part) because the layout of the Amedio – while looking different from Chult – does have three predominant rivers flowing alongside one another which can take place of the Soshenstar, Tiryki, and Olung.


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## Stormdale (Dec 1, 2018)

I used the Amedio jungle and ignored much of the ToA map- we didn't hex crawl it but ran it more as a narrative based adventure.

I decided which of the keyed encounters I wanted them to stumble upon but offered options to different locations after each one.

Stormdale


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